1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 This is how you out ultimately get composability of distinct 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,920 distributed systems as you have more expressive systems for 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,480 interpreting querying and you just generally using the states 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,680 of another chain. The Cosmos ecosystem I think 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,160 gets it better than anybody, but it's just a really hard problem. 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,920 When you're building a cross chain transaction in Cosmos, 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,080 you're you're most likely using skip. 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,160 Bitcoin signing is not the same as Ethereum signing is not the 9 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,040 same as Solana signing is not the same as Cosmos signing. 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,360 And that causes a massive amount of pain. 11 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360 And that's one of the reasons that ecosystems are so segmented 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:53,480 right now. If you're looking to stake your 13 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:56,520 crypto with confidence, look no further than Course one. 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,560 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bid 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,440 Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger Trust. 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,560 Course One. With their assets, they support 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,000 over 50 block chains and their leaders in governance or 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,080 networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is responsibly 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,520 managed. Thanks to the advanced MEB 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,080 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,600 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,320 label note, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 23 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:24,640 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,040 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,640 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,120 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,800 Nosys leads innovation with Circles, Nosys Pay and Metri, 28 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,080 reshaping open banking and money. 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,520 With Hashi and Nosys VPN, they're building a more 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,000 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,200 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Nosys Chain 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,560 offers the same development environment as Ethereum with 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,640 lower transaction fees. It's supported by over 200,000 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,080 ballot errors, making Nosys Chain a reliable and credibly 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,000 neutral foundation for your applications. 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,320 Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis governance, where every voice 37 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,000 matters. Join the Gnosis community in the 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,440 Gnosis Dow forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Gnosis Chain or secure the network with just one GNO and 40 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,560 affordable hardware. Start your decentralization 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:30,440 journey today at gnosis dot IO. Hi, Sam, it's a pleasure to have 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,440 you on. Yeah, great to be here. 43 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,200 Long time listener. Very, very, very, very cool. 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,040 You have been in this space for a super long time. 45 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:47,640 Tell us about yourself. Yeah, I'll give a kind of a 46 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:55,400 bridged version, I guess I started my crypto journey I 47 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,760 guess very close to when Epicenter started. 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,480 I started listening to Epicenter like quite quite early. 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,920 And I was living in New York City right around the time of 50 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:09,160 Occupy Wall Street. So there is kind of like a 51 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,120 milieu of, you know, activated political consciousness. 52 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:20,880 And I was just kind of bathed in that. 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:26,960 And a lot of my friends ended up participating in Occupy or I'm 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,640 kind of analyzing it from a more academic or like critical 55 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:37,160 perspective that got me just very interested in alternative 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,800 infrastructures for, you know, new institutions effectively. 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:50,120 And I, I've been involved in the arts for my whole life and ended 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,600 up doing a lot of kind of critical art projects or like 59 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,880 interventionist projects around met a bunch of people that were 60 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,040 involved in Occupy and like doing both of these things. 61 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,800 And eventually I, I have a technical background. 62 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:12,120 I worked as a research scientist for, for 10 years doing protein 63 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,079 folding and bioinformatics work. So I was able to kind of like 64 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,640 bridge the gap. And some of these folks who were 65 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,440 interested in kind of rebuilding institutions ended up getting 66 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,320 into crypto unknowingly and, and I could kind of provide like a 67 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,200 technical basis for some of that and just got really fascinated 68 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:40,320 by the industry made kind of got pulled into it accidentally. 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:46,640 And it's been, you know, a very interesting journey ever since I 70 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,080 did. I've done a whole bunch of 71 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,160 consulting projects with Ethereum protocols and Cosmos 72 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,920 protocols kind of all over the place. 73 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,040 A lot of kind of product strategy, brand strategy, 74 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:05,280 mechanism design, kind of ghost written or helped write a whole 75 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:11,160 bunch of white papers. And then that ended up bringing 76 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:17,120 me to Berlin at one point to work with the project here now 77 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,200 called Radical so that I can open source or like 78 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:23,760 decentralized GitHub alternative. 79 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:31,600 So finished contract with them, worked on EIP 1559 a little bit 80 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:38,040 as a kind of one of the many members who were played a small 81 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,920 role. And eventually the pandemic 82 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:46,600 started the I didn't want to be living abroad doing freelance 83 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,480 work. So one of my closest friends, 84 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:56,440 Billy Reinecamp, was working in Cosmos at the at All in Bits, 85 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:02,640 kind of a defunct organization. Now it it kind of liquidated at 86 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,560 the time and most of the engineers move to the 87 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,800 Interchange Foundation, kind of primary foundation associated 88 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,080 with Cosmos. He asked me if I wanted to join 89 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,440 and kind of rebuild the Cosmos ecosystem. 90 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,280 So I spent about two years there and you know, made a lot of 91 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:30,200 progress in reforming the the kind of meta organization that 92 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:34,160 built off technology did kind of wore all hats there. 93 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,560 So I did kind of product strategy and a bunch of like 94 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,920 deeper product work with like the whole stack. 95 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:48,080 And then that yeah, a whole bunch of kind of BD yeah, lots 96 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,360 of back end work. And then last thing I did there 97 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,160 was work on the Atom 2, Atom 2 point O paper, which was kind of 98 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:04,040 a, a beautiful failure. And at that point I just kind of 99 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,200 like touched every part of the part of the ecosystem. 100 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,560 I was like, OK, I need to need to take a break, need to do 101 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:15,080 something else. I completely failed at taking a 102 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,320 break. I ended up joining Skip 103 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:24,120 immediately afterwards as well as Co founding this other 104 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,360 project Time Wave, which builds this protocol, protocol lending 105 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640 product, product which is kind of a something that merged and 106 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,800 an idea that emerged out of the Atom 2 initiative. 107 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,560 And yeah, I'm happy to talk about either of those those 108 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,560 things today. I guess that was a little bit of 109 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,560 a longer insurer than I anticipated. 110 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,920 Yeah, Sam, it sounds like you're one, one person start up. 111 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,120 I mean, you've, you've basically touched on all the different 112 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:02,920 aspects kind of like from white paper to kind of tech stack to 113 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,120 company structuring and governance and BD and branding. 114 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,040 Did they meet any other people at IBC at all? 115 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:23,120 Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of other people that, but there 116 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,640 there were not as many people who had that kind of like broad 117 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,240 context. And I mean, I'm sure you know, 118 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,559 Gnosis has a similar just kind of latitude and like the number 119 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,039 of things that you're doing right, like how deep you have to 120 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:38,840 go. And there, there are, I think 121 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,600 there are these specific people that like have that full view 122 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,960 and like that super, super valuable to just like kind of 123 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,160 understand how the pieces that are locked with one another. 124 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,240 Absolutely. You have a fairly eclectic 125 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,280 background, right? Kind of. 126 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,360 You talked about kind of like arts and biochemistry and 127 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,080 protein folding and so on. How do you, how do you decide 128 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,160 what to work on? I mean, what, what what What 129 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,640 does a project actually have to have in order to appear to you? 130 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,920 Yeah, wow, that's a that's a great question. 131 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,000 I I'm not sure I do decide it. It's like decided for me. 132 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:16,840 They. Come to you. 133 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,440 No, I just like kind of follow my interests like that. 134 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,720 That's really been like my guiding light is like I kind of 135 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,920 can't not work on this thing. It's I'm just kind of drawn to 136 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:32,440 it, which is just brought me into some very circuitous paths 137 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,440 and and a whole bunch of different things. 138 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,680 But I'm, yeah, I'm just like a very curious person and kind of 139 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:43,200 follow that, follow that line. It it is kind of funny because I 140 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,240 do play like a strategy role in a lot of these instances, which 141 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,480 is like very much a kind of structure or it has this kind of 142 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,240 structured unstructured aspect to it where, you know, given 143 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,200 your position in the market and like what you're trying to 144 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,600 achieve, what do you we trying to do? 145 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,080 But like for my personal life, I'm just very like, OK, I'm 146 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,880 going to float wherever is just kind of most attractive. 147 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,400 Yeah, super nice. You're also you're also part of 148 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,760 the other Internet, which is a super interesting research 149 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:26,880 collective whose outputs I consume with some frequency. 150 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:28,880 They're they're they're usually very insightful. 151 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Can you talk about that? And kind of we'll also link to 152 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,480 that in the show notes because I think it's it's under 153 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,720 appreciated the ecosystem. Yeah, absolutely. 154 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,520 It's a very special group of people and organization, you 155 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,120 know, pretty, pretty unique in in the space. 156 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:53,120 And it it it I mean it is a research organization, kind of 157 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,560 cultural research. We do a variety of things. 158 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:02,080 Some of it is kind of these long form kind of cultural analysis 159 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,240 or kind of contemporary anthropologies of what's 160 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,720 happening in crypto. Some of it is consulting work. 161 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:16,640 So worked with Uniswap and Aragon and Optimism and whole 162 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:22,280 bunch of other folks mostly on kind of governance and I don't 163 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,640 know kind of community development projects. 164 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:32,240 And then there's, there's kind of an internal side of the 165 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,360 organization, which much most people don't know about, which 166 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,160 is really about kind of personal development and, and learning. 167 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,880 So there's like a reading group and, and we, we've done 168 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,040 seminars, like brought in lectures to like just speak to 169 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,840 the group about topics that we're interested in. 170 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:56,200 A lot of like political philosophy and I don't know, 171 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,800 practitioners, they were doing, you know, work with municipal 172 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,960 governments and things like that. 173 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:10,880 So it's a it, it's also, you know, houses of a bunch of folks 174 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,560 that have pretty eclectic interests and, you know, has a a 175 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:19,640 multitude of different projects that kind of reflect their skill 176 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,600 sets and, and where they're drawn to as well. 177 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,800 Yeah, no, it's, it's a it's a great resource. 178 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,520 Go check it out people. So let's talk about Skip 179 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,240 protocol. So you are the head of Product 180 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,640 and strategy? How? 181 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,640 How would you describe Skip in a few sentences? 182 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:42,960 Yeah. And it, it's maybe a little bit 183 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:48,360 different than how you kind of introduced, introduced Skip in 184 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,360 in the intro, which is totally understandable with the 185 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,880 organization's evolved a lot. And it, it definitely started 186 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,520 out as like MEV infrastructure company had product very similar 187 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,200 to the like the flashbots MEV relay. 188 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:14,200 But today basically what we realized is that like MEV is not 189 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,080 really a product. It's, it's more of a phenomenon 190 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,240 or you know, maybe a business model if you're. 191 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,280 Probably. Kind of structuring it or 192 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,120 problem totally. It's a, it's a force to be 193 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,440 reckoned with. It's also kind of a, a lens that 194 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,960 you can bring to product development. 195 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,080 So that, that's kind of how we approach things today. 196 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,440 The first thing that we realized was, OK, if we're going to be 197 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,120 like a cross chain MEV organization or if that's 198 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,640 something that that we're interested in, we need to have 199 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,360 more cross chain economic activity happening. 200 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,800 So like we, we just started working on that problem. 201 00:13:53,800 --> 00:14:00,680 Like it's actually really hard to do and it's completely, it's 202 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:05,640 unsolved today. Like there are, you know, 203 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,760 domains or like coverage areas where you can get a decent 204 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:15,560 experience, but it's really, if you kind of deviate from from 205 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,040 that path, it's an absolute nightmare. 206 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:24,840 So we started in just kind of solving that for Cosmos have 207 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,000 done a whole bunch of kind of full stack modifications of the 208 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,760 the mem pool, the fee market, the IBC, the interoperability 209 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,480 protocol, like just basically every layer of the stack to kind 210 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,720 of try to smooth out that experience. 211 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,200 A lot of that work kind of focused on transaction building 212 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,200 or, or it is in order to deliver an experience that was those 213 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:57,720 kind of close to the user. We also in, in order to kind of 214 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,080 make this experience seamless, we we also needed to to work on 215 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,560 the, the kind of node architecture itself. 216 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,600 Cosmos is a, a network of sovereign options. 217 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,640 So we built a fee market. We, we built a kind of 218 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,040 transaction builder that's internal to the to deployed 219 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,840 nodes. And what we realized there is 220 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:31,960 that a lot of that work looked a lot like an Oracle of some kind. 221 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,280 So we kind of evolved that product suite into an enshrined 222 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:42,080 Oracle that many options and in the ecosystem are using 223 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,640 including two IDX and Neutron and others. 224 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,080 We're kind of syndicating that and, and deploying it more 225 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:54,280 widely now so that the kind of unifying umbrella there is, 226 00:15:54,280 --> 00:16:00,040 we're basically building tools for sovereign chains and trying 227 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,200 to kind of pick off the, the problems that are, you know, 228 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,520 most important to, to builders. And there's a whole bunch of 229 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,840 things that we we want to do in the future to, to improve that 230 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,320 experience and make it really easy to, to deploy your own app 231 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,600 chain. Just in case that hasn't become 232 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,640 abundantly clear, you guys are on Cosmos. 233 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,640 So why was interoperability a problem before kind of like, 234 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,600 because Cosmos is very much devised with kind of like this 235 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:34,280 interoperability mindset, you know, front and centre. 236 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:39,280 So I mean kind of like IBC is kind of like the the causing for 237 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,920 Cosmos, right? Totally. 238 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,640 I mean, obviously the Cosmos ecosystem I think gets it better 239 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,680 than anybody, but it's just a really hard problem. 240 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,040 First of all, like what does interoperability mean? 241 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,840 Like what is and who is who or what is interoperable with, you 242 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,000 know, with what you're working in a, a kind of network of 243 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,280 networks. You know, it's a distributed 244 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,800 system that has heterogeneous architecture. 245 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,640 The what IBC gives you is a standard message passing system 246 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,920 and way of, of kind of creating like an assurance around the, 247 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:28,040 The Who your counterparty is by like having the chain itself 248 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,160 authenticate messages. And that's kind of it actually. 249 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,280 Like that's, that's the core of what IBC is. 250 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,520 It's actually just kind of like a natural solution like, oh, you 251 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,680 don't want to introduce a third party when chains are talking to 252 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,960 each other. That's kind of the core thesis. 253 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,720 And then there's you can build other things on top of that. 254 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,120 So you can build a fungible token protocol, an NFT protocol, 255 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,400 kind of remote access or remote authentication protocol. 256 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,280 So even just in the the fungible token case, because IVC is a 257 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,520 point to point messaging system, if it's security kind of relies 258 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,960 on or, or it assumes that you don't want to introduce third 259 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,880 party like you want to direct communicate directly basically 260 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:19,280 means that you can't just send a token directly to any chain at 261 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,440 any time and have it produce the, the correct representation. 262 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,760 So you typically need to unwind tokens through their, their 263 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,600 issuer, their issuing chain. So we're, we're now getting 264 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:40,680 like, you know, if I want to send my ATOM from Neutron to 265 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,800 Osmosis, I actually need to send it back to the Cosmos Hub and 266 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,760 then I need to send it to Osmosis. 267 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:52,640 And there's three different chains, three different 268 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,800 distributed systems like involved here. 269 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,360 You're actually creating a workflow between between these 270 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,760 things that's completely asynchronous so that there ends 271 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,960 up being these kind of middlewares that you that you 272 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,480 deploy on a chain in order to interpret messages in order to 273 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,840 like forward them on to the next to the next domain. 274 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,840 That's just for fungible tokens, which is like very kind of 275 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,000 structured process. If you want to do anything more 276 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,760 complicated than that, like you want to compose the application 277 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:28,920 behavior of three different protocols, this is going to get 278 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,120 way more complicated. And this is one of the reasons 279 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,720 that we kind of went in this Oracle direction as well as, OK, 280 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,400 you want to dynamically read state from a different chain and 281 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,600 then you know, be able to, you know, like this. 282 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,480 This is how you out ultimately get composability of distinct 283 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,480 distributed systems as you have more expressive systems for 284 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:57,080 interpreting querying and you just generally using the the 285 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,200 states of another chain. Yeah, Long story short, it's 286 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,480 just a really hard problem. And we thought really deeply 287 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,680 about it, but it it's about the most challenging thing that you 288 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,120 could possibly approach and in order to get like really good 289 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,240 composability at that like application level. 290 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:24,120 But Cosmos was kind of devised in this application chain 291 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,640 architecture. So, So how, how did things work 292 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,480 before Skip or what were the things that very concretely you 293 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,160 added to kind of help devs cross that bridge? 294 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,280 Yeah. I think it's just a, the 295 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,280 difference is kind of like the theoretical versus the 296 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,280 practical. We were really the first team 297 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:55,200 that was kind of serving multiple customers with that 298 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,360 specific agenda of like, oh, we, we want to make these flows 299 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,280 better. Osmosis was, you know, it's kind 300 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:09,360 of a power user of IBC, but their their workflow is just 301 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,920 kind of like drawing assets in, right? 302 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,240 Like it's kind of one way flow and they can kind of simplifies 303 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,840 what they need to do. We're kind of serving all chains 304 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,880 at once. And so we need these, you know, 305 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,440 much more intricate dynamic flows to be available. 306 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,720 The problem that we ended up solving first was just how do 307 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,000 you build a transaction? Like yes, it's technically 308 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,200 possible to build a transaction that's going to have this 309 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,000 behavior. But the the practical reality of 310 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,120 that is like, OK, well you need to understand what the fee token 311 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,120 of this, of the counterparty chain or all the intermediate 312 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:53,840 chains are. You need to understand what kind 313 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,800 of fee market they have. They might have different fee 314 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,720 markets. You need to understand what the 315 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,840 fall back behavior is if something doesn't get executed. 316 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,440 There's just like all this information and contact, like 317 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,080 what the token denominations are, what are the signature 318 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,640 schemes that each of these chains have is actually, even 319 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,640 though something's technically possible, just performing the 320 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,040 right sequence of actions is, is immensely difficult. 321 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,600 So that was kind of the first thing we solved is just you have 322 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,720 an API that does transaction building and delivers that to a, 323 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,240 a wallet or a front end. So we power a lot of the the 324 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,520 transaction building in in the ecosystem cross chain. 325 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,880 And what Who are your users for this API service? 326 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:52,480 Most of the major front ends in Cosmos and and a bunch of the OR 327 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:58,760 main wallets. So Kepler Leap, there's a a 328 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Metamask extension that uses uses Skip and then Osmosis 329 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:12,280 Neutron DIDX. Yeah, I mean, it's the main way 330 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,480 that you get around. It's, it's a little bit hidden 331 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,720 in the background, but when you're building a cross chain 332 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,640 transaction in Cosmos, you're, you're most likely using Skip. 333 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,560 I shall just mention we're not Cosmos specific per SE. 334 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,040 Like we kind of extended into, so Cosmos technologies extended 335 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,320 into a whole bunch of different domains. 336 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,840 And then we've also kind of adopted some other bridges. 337 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,320 So we, we're actually the, we do the most volume. 338 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,480 We're like we're one of the only providers that's able to do CCTP 339 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,120 transactions between different chains. 340 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:53,000 We actually there are routes that are non cosmos that we we 341 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,040 serve. We're one of the best ways to to 342 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,040 do any kind of hyperlane transaction. 343 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,200 We're working with a bunch of Bitcoin L twos and and things 344 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,080 like this. So we're, we're just kind of 345 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,360 going where I guess the, the kind of territory that we're or 346 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,520 our coverage areas continuing to increase as we see demand for 347 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,440 these things. So CCTV being the sucker 348 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,040 protocol, right? OK for for devs or projects that 349 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:32,080 kind of use your service, how do they how do they pay? 350 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,080 So is it kind of like on a transaction basis or how do they 351 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,760 pay for your surface service? Yeah. 352 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:44,280 So our two main products right now are this Oracle service and 353 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:51,400 we have a, the API and there's, there's kind of a structure or 354 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,520 like a semi structured model for for payment. 355 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,840 And on both sides, it's a little bit dependent on the nature of 356 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,200 what you want to do. So there's, there's a number of 357 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,400 like special cases and, and we do a bunch of like kind of 358 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,520 custom work for, for folks like, you know, DYDX, we do like a ton 359 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,360 of custom work to get exactly where they wanted to go. 360 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,160 On the Oracle side, we have a like service contracts, yearly 361 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,160 service contracts, which is a kind of standard or coal model. 362 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:31,560 And then on, on the the API side, skip go is, is the name of 363 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,280 the API. We take a percentage of the fees 364 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:43,040 taken by the by the affiliate. So if you're not charging, then 365 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:48,400 we won't take a cut, but if you are charging then then we'll 366 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,360 take a percentage of that. OK. 367 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,880 And the oracles that you are offering to kind of enable this 368 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,360 interoperability or the seamless interoperability, what kind of 369 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:00,800 oracles are they? Are they kind of decentralized 370 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,720 or are they kind of just feeds that you pull from somewhere and 371 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,680 put on chain? Maybe just worth backing up for 372 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:08,480 a second. Like what? 373 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:09,960 What is it? Cosmos chain. 374 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:17,480 So it's a delegated proof stake chain that is run by typically 375 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,360 anywhere from 20 to 100 validators. 376 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:30,520 And the Oracle system that we develop is integrated into the 377 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,440 binary and and the validator setup. 378 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,680 So all of that, all the validators are running the 379 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,760 Oracle. There is a a note, a module in 380 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:45,240 the in the binary that does some interpretation of of incoming 381 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:50,000 messages and and then there's a sidecar process that's run by 382 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:57,760 each validator that will query a variety of providers and those 383 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,640 providers are can be programmed by the the application chain. 384 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:08,680 So DYDX for instance uses primarily price feeds, but from 385 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,640 a number of different providers. So for any asset it will want 386 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,680 multiple providers. Some of those might be, it might 387 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,440 be unit swap. So it could just query chain 388 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,680 state directly. It could include proofs of of 389 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,560 that chain state if it wanted to. 390 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,680 Or it could be finance Coinbase. It can aggregate locally on the 391 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:36,800 validator, and then the validator, as part of its kind 392 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:43,640 of consensus voting process, submits its aggregated aggregate 393 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:51,640 price or aggregated data, and then the the chain then does a 394 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:58,160 second aggregation to find a consensus value for whatever 395 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,600 state you're trying to to include in in the application. 396 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,680 So it's an Oracle aggregator protocol in a way. 397 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,000 Is that fair to say? Yeah, I, I think that's fair. 398 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,160 Kind of all oracles are Oracle aggregators to some extent. 399 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,360 They don't. It's a little bit of like a back 400 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,400 end detail, but any decentralized feed is is some 401 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,040 kind of aggregation. That's fair, yeah. 402 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:26,720 Yeah. The, the main differentiator is 403 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,400 it's, there's, there's no middle man. 404 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,160 Like even Skip is not a middle man in this process. 405 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,200 It's just, it is run by the validators and the chain. 406 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,440 They are fetching the data and then it is like you come to 407 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,680 consensus on the data. So skip develops a, a module 408 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,160 that you can, you can run and then we, you know, we're we're 409 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,240 kind of on hand for maintenance and, and things of that, that 410 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,840 nature, but we're not running an intermediary service. 411 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,920 Why did I think that you guys primarily do MEV like cross 412 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,920 chain MEV? I mean we did at one point 413 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,880 because there's a question of like what what do you is MEV? 414 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,640 But I guess we're more on the MEV generation than MEV 415 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,680 extraction side. Now we we have developed a 416 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,560 number of products that that had this character. 417 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,560 We've open sourced all of them and they are in production. 418 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,680 So the first one that we developed was a product for 419 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,800 osmosis, which was a. Again, there's a module that 420 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,560 lives inside the binary of of the osmosis chain. 421 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,480 It's Live Today and it's automatically back runs 422 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:56,280 transactions it in order to it does cyclic arbitrage before a a 423 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,560 searcher is able to to extract that revenue. 424 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,880 This is something before we did this like people didn't think 425 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,520 was possible. So this is kind of cool to to 426 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,560 demonstrate that it's viable to actually do solving like in 427 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,720 protocol. It's been really interesting to 428 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,240 see this is kind of like rebranded as the application 429 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,480 specific sequencing now. Yeah, if you want to see an 430 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,720 example of that, it's live on osmosis. 431 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,960 It was a little bit osmosis specific. 432 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,640 So we it was kind of one off. We also developed another 433 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:37,880 product called the Block SDK which is also deployed in a 434 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,760 number of chains in Cosmos. What Block SDK does is it allows 435 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,080 you to create programmable lanes for your block space. 436 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,040 So you can say basically you create different kind of sub mem 437 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,440 pools and then different block building rules for each of those 438 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,400 mem pools. And so you can have different 439 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,120 kind of basically transactions come into the main men pool 440 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,160 there there's kind of a hierarchical filter in which 441 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,640 they get sorted into different, these different men pools and 442 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,360 then you can program program them to do whatever they want. 443 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,840 So some you have a free lane, for instance, just transactions 444 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,440 of this type are, are free or they're free up to a certain 445 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,640 number per hour or something like that. 446 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,240 Transactions that are from this user or from a user that has 447 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,440 this NFT, you know, have a reduced rate. 448 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,440 You know, you can, you can kind of do whatever you want here. 449 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,560 So we've seen, you know, a bunch of creativity kind of applied to 450 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000 to that system. Again, we had to kind of build 451 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,640 that system to realize like, I mean, these maybe not like a 452 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,600 business model so much as like a, a tool. 453 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,840 And so we just open source that product and, and you know, have 454 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,360 helped a bunch of people to, to integrate it, deploy it, give 455 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,760 them some advice on how to use it, but it's, it's just kind of 456 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,160 freely available for the ecosystem. 457 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,440 MEB has caused a large amount of controversy in in the Etherium 458 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,560 ecosystem. How? 459 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,680 How's it gone down in the Cosmos ecosystem? 460 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:33,760 Was it equally contentious? No, I mean for a couple of 461 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:41,240 reasons, like one, there's just way less economic activity in 462 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,760 Cosmos ecosystem. So MEV is going to occur when 463 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,480 there's a high degree of, you know, when there is value to be 464 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,720 extracted and when there's a lot of contentious state and Cosmos 465 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,720 kind of has its general like architecture is one of less 466 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,680 contentious state. You know, you're separating 467 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,760 applications into their own domains and there's less 468 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:14,360 economic value currently. So that both of those together 469 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:22,840 mean that the cost severity of MEP and some it, it's just 470 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,520 something that's like way less of a dire issue. 471 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,200 It's still there and it's still something you want to address 472 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,800 and, and kind of give, give attention to. 473 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,320 But it it's more of a a background thing and again more 474 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,160 of like a lens or toolkit to to to bring to a a problem. 475 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,320 Yeah. Just just as a background, kind 476 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:50,120 of like on Ethereum, there were times when you know, 1% or so of 477 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,280 total value transacted was extracted. 478 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,800 Do you have an idea of what the equivalent percentage is on 479 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,200 Cosmos? I don't, I mean it's so small 480 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,520 that it like wasn't worth tracking like that. 481 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,240 That's kind of what we're talking about here. 482 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,440 It also a little bit depends on what you're talking about with 483 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,760 MEV. So the cyclic arbitrage that 484 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,159 we're now doing in protocol for osmosis, that was the largest 485 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:21,120 source of MEV in the. System. 486 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,560 Right back running back running on osmosis. 487 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,360 Back running on. OK. 488 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,080 That's super interesting that. Made-up like 90% of of MEV that 489 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,199 is now being captured by the protocol. 490 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,840 Is that mevi like the protocols capturing it? 491 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,360 Yeah, that that doesn't matter. So basically to MEV is is 492 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,120 everything that kind of where where kind of you can extract 493 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,560 value or something can extract value by changing the context of 494 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,080 the transaction and you're doing you're very much. 495 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,639 It's some minor extractable value the protocol is 496 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:57,840 extracting. It doesn't matter. 497 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,840 This is what I'm saying the the definition here is is relevant. 498 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,720 I mean it's are you familiar with MEV blocker? 499 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:10,880 Yeah. Yeah. 500 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,520 So kind of like it's, it's a protocol that we built on, on 501 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,960 Ethereum and basically it, it also it does the same. 502 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,680 So kind of like it, it prevents front running and sandwiching 503 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:25,760 and it it kind of gives back 90% of the fees that accrued through 504 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,120 back running, I should say. And I mean back running to to 505 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,280 kind of to, to give a very simple explanation here for back 506 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,000 running. It's kind of like for instance, 507 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,480 if you change the price of something on chain by your own 508 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,040 transaction and then kind of there's there's a value in kind 509 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,920 of bringing that back to where it should be and that's kind of 510 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,520 back running. So kind of in a way it's kind of 511 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,960 benign mev and that kind of like nothing is being extracted from 512 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,000 you. You're just not a very 513 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,680 sophisticated trader and that kind of like someone would have 514 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,360 would have upped that anyway. And kind of like, yeah. 515 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,360 And we actually on Ethereum we see that that back running is a 516 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,600 fairly minor percentage of of MEV. 517 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,240 Why? Why do you think it's different 518 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:18,800 on on Cosmos? Why is back running specifically 519 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,320 a a smaller percentage? Yeah. 520 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,720 So why, why, why is it a much bigger, so comparatively a much 521 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,120 bigger issue on Osmosis than on on Ethereum? 522 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,080 Oh, well, you're just saying the distribution between top of 523 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,760 block or or stat ARB and back running. 524 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,680 I mean the reason is like really stupid, which is that like 525 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,520 Etherium, Etherium has more tokens that are listed on 526 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,000 Binance. So the you can do stat ARB 527 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,240 between Binance and Etherium and there's just like less tokens 528 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:55,400 that are listed on centralized exchanges. 529 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,520 Yeah, there is stat art and and I think it's like increasing 530 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,400 over time, but yeah, it's a really trivial answer. 531 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,880 OK. Yeah, that's, that's fair. 532 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,480 What do you think of protocols that kind of like prevent MEV 533 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,960 completely? So for instance, there's 534 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,760 chatter, right? Kind of that kind of that 535 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,280 encrypts your your transactions before they send to the mem pool 536 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,040 and then it kind of decrypts them only once they've been 537 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,040 included in a block. Do do you think that would be a 538 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,840 good technical solution to kind of just completely do away with 539 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,200 the problem? Yeah, So completely is a strong 540 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,480 word. So we, we worked with Osmosis on 541 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,440 like an early version of of their threshold decryption 542 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,120 thing, which is, which is not been deployed yet. 543 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:52,720 It's been, but they've, you know, helped to kind of initiate 544 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,880 that idea. So we've, we've done quite a bit 545 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,960 of like research on this topic. One of the reasons it hasn't 546 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,160 been deployed is it kind of only becomes an issue at a certain 547 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:10,960 level of of Med that you might be concerned about. 548 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,600 OK, this is a, it's a tool. It really depends on what you're 549 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:21,480 trying to do. So in the Etherium context, like 550 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,400 as far as I understand, shudder is like trying to do something 551 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,200 for main chain, right? Like. 552 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,920 Yeah, it's live on Nose's chain right now. 553 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,240 But kind of like, yeah, obviously kind of like there are 554 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:37,320 discussions whether to also deploy it on mainnet. 555 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,240 Yeah, but it's like the the beacon, you know, that's kind of 556 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:45,120 where it's targeting, which is, you know, has like this high 557 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,600 degree of composability. There's lots of contention. 558 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,880 This is a so like that is a different environment than one 559 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,960 in which you're just doing like a ticketing app or whatever. 560 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,240 And like there's maybe not a lot of Med and like, so the way that 561 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:05,240 it's going to behave, the incentives for kind of like, you 562 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:10,320 know, the way that you break this thing is you, you go into 563 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:17,680 the like collocation and you try to, to deliver transactions or, 564 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,640 or get information as as quickly as possible from like a third 565 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,920 party exchange. I think that all the more 566 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,320 economic activity you have, like the more you're going to be 567 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,920 pushed in that direction. It's a little bit of a cat and 568 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,800 mouse game on how to how to ameliorate that. 569 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,680 But deployed an environment like like ticketing app, for 570 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,280 instance, like maybe it's just not even worth like doing that 571 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,320 whole thing and you're just never going to have that kind of 572 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,480 behavior. And so it could just be fine. 573 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,320 Like it could be a nice thing that's like out-of-the-box for 574 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,520 the system like that and just eliminate some behaviors that 575 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,520 were like kind of easy to do previously. 576 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,920 And that's just like that class of whatever searcher is just 577 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,680 like never going to exist because they're not. 578 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,360 You know, getting the $10 on the the like advance ticket is like 579 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,640 not worth you know, Co locating, you know, data center in Japan 580 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,240 like. Yeah, that's fair. 581 00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,800 Can we talk, can we zoom out a little bit and kind of like talk 582 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,800 about the Ethereum versus Cosmos debate? 583 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,440 Because kind of like you've, you've been kind of like in this 584 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,720 ecosystem a super long time. And as you say, there's way less 585 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,960 economic activity on Cosmos, but Cosmos does have this kind of 586 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:38,240 like inbuilt interoperability, which now thanks to Skip, maybe 587 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:40,400 it's also usable. And kind of like what, why, why 588 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,400 do you think Ethereum sees so much more economic activity 589 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:53,000 where kind of interoperability is much more, is much more an 590 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,880 afterthought for us? And I mean, we've, we've seen 591 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,880 this over the past 2 1/2 years or so, right? 592 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,880 Kind of like we've had 4 1/2 billion in bridge tax. 593 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,160 So why? Why? 594 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,640 I mean, from kind of like a first principles approach, the 595 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,320 Cosmos ecosystem, yeah, makes a lot of sense, right? 596 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:22,240 Why is why is Cosmos less successful? 597 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,600 There's there's a bunch of reasons, some of them are are 598 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,080 very like circumstantial and path dependent. 599 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,880 I mean the main development organization completely melted 600 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:44,600 down and fragmented into now like 10 different entities, 601 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:47,440 which is very interesting. Super decentralized ecosystem 602 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,960 like. Maybe there's not a consensus 603 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,600 opinion, but I think this was actually really good for the 604 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:59,120 Cosmos ecosystem because kind of like the, the, I mean all in 605 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,400 bits and kind of like the leadership and everything was a 606 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,720 little bit dysfunctional. I was kind of like, I think kind 607 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:08,440 of like having that fall apart. I think there was a really good 608 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,400 thing for the ecosystem. Would would you? 609 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,560 Would you see this otherwise? I mean, I don't, I don't think 610 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,040 it's black or white. Like it was good for some 611 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,920 things, it was bad for others. Like if you want Adam token 612 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:29,200 number to go up, probably bad for that, like, but it did allow 613 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:36,600 for just a a lot of kind of all of these fragmented entities 614 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560 like started their own thing. And so there was just like a, 615 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,480 you know, there's a lot of creativity that was kind of 616 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,440 brought into into other projects. 617 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,560 This is one. This is one of the reasons it's 618 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,320 really fun to work in Cosmos is like it really is kind of a 619 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,800 bastion of like new ideas and you get to try stuff out. 620 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,680 I mean, I've worked on like the very beginning of proof of 621 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,440 stake, the very beginning of liquid stake in the very 622 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,520 beginning of pre staking, the very beginning of like, you 623 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,680 know, just this a lot of this MEV stuff that we're now talking 624 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,720 about. And it's cool to talk to 625 00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:12,800 Ethereum people and be like, Oh yeah, like I did that. 626 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,960 And like we we've explored all these different ideas and it's 627 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,520 actually a really nice dialogue to be able to have have some of 628 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,400 that experience. But yeah, I mean, it impacted 629 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,120 the go to market for the primary asset for sure. 630 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,760 I, I think the, the architecture, you know, doing a, 631 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,680 doing 1 chain, it's easier. It's just, it's just easier to, 632 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:43,080 to do and like to bring that to market to create a unified 633 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,760 experience around it in order to kind of get initial traction 634 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,880 cause it's never had that. So it was like always dealing 635 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:58,680 with the the problems that were anticipated for, you know, a 636 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,240 market that was several years down the line. 637 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,040 And now it's nice to have them. But yeah, it was a little bit 638 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,440 like cart before the horse. Maybe I I do think Etherium 639 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,720 would have done well to have more of an emphasis on 640 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:14,800 interoperability from the beginning. 641 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,160 It's like very hard to back into that because they're competing 642 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,720 solutions. Nobody's incentivized to use 643 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,400 something that's invented today or, or kind of like forced in 644 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,160 by, you know, but theorem foundation leadership. 645 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,120 Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is just kind 646 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,480 of like a cultural or like normative thing where you think 647 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,560 about the ecosystem as one that has interoperability or like 648 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:40,880 that's that's kind of a core asset. 649 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,760 Like everybody's just like, yeah, I use that. 650 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,560 That's my default and that helps a lot. 651 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:48,760 Yeah. So I totally, I totally agree 652 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,240 that it's kind of like it's to do with kind of like standard 653 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,000 settings. So kind of like on Ethereum we 654 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,080 kind of we know what the flea market is like and and yeah, 655 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,080 it's it's by by by the flip side interoperability is kind of like 656 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,400 was underspecified and kind of like the the protocol ex ante. 657 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,960 We do see a lot of interesting solutions though. 658 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,960 Do you think they will reach the same level of security as IBC 659 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,080 eventually? I I guess I just see them a 660 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,160 little bit as like apples and oranges, like the whole security 661 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,360 model is just different. It's different, yeah. 662 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,440 There is a an assumption that you're using Ethereum for quote 663 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,480 UN quote settlement. You know, the market maker is 664 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,960 taking on the risk of settlement often times in these like fast 665 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,960 transfer systems, IB, CS, just like more of a standard 666 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,480 standardized process. Yeah, it's a little bit hard to 667 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,040 to answer that question because they're they're kind of 668 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,160 different animals. So in Etherium you can like 669 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,520 reason about Etherium security, but you every single bridge has 670 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,880 a different is a different. It's like its own snowflake, 671 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,960 which is kind of messed up to be honest. 672 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,320 And then there's all these different fast transfer or the 673 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,720 kind of slow transfer settlement processes that you can you can 674 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:22,960 take and there's heterogeneous messaging and heterogeneous like 675 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,640 authentication. And in Cosmos, there's 676 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,120 heterogeneous security, there's heterogeneous domains, but like 677 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,560 standardized messaging, just kind of inverse. 678 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,840 Yeah, it's, it's a totally different system. 679 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:43,160 Do you, do you, do you see applications working cross 680 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,600 Ethereum and Cosmos in due time? So kind of like when I talk 681 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,280 about kind of like actually use adoption, kind of like having 682 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,240 numies use things that are powered by blockchain 683 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:58,480 infrastructure, I usually posit that kind of no one would have 684 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,640 to know what's kind of powering the application that they're 685 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,880 using. Do you envision there kind of 686 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:12,280 being this cross ecosystem operability where kind of like I 687 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,560 can send things from Ethereum to Cosmos or messages or kind of 688 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,560 like have kind of flipped between the two of them without 689 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,880 knowing that I'm currently doing that without, with that kind of 690 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:26,720 being totally abstracted away from me? 691 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,120 Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's already happening in 692 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,600 certain in many cases. So first of all, it depends on 693 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,400 what you call Cosmos to some extent. 694 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,760 Not sure we want to get into this, but like Cosmos is both, 695 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,080 you know, an ecosystem. There's the Cosmos Hub, which 696 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,200 has an asset, which is like pretty distinct in a lot of ways 697 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,240 from the ecosystem. There's a stack of components 698 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,400 that many of these that many of these projects are building 699 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,320 with. And then I, I also like to say 700 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,440 that there's kind of a, the stack you can even kind of 701 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,600 decompose into like a set of specific components, you know, 702 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,200 the cause of SDK, comet, IBC. And then just like a general 703 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,040 pattern of like, OK, there's a state machine framework, there's 704 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,280 a consensus algorithm and there's a message passing 705 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,320 system. And like that, that kind of 706 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,680 looks like, you know, the jam stack or something like that. 707 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,280 It's just like that's a pattern that's like adopted everywhere, 708 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,680 but those specific components are actually all over the place. 709 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,600 Even in a lot of Etherium projects, you just kind of don't 710 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,600 hear about them. It's just they're useful tools. 711 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,200 So is that like Cosmos interoperability? 712 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,800 Like maybe I, you know, I talked to a lot of Etherium projects 713 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,360 that are like they want to use Cosmos 50K for this random thing 714 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,240 like, Yep, happy to talk to you. Like it can do XYZ, user never 715 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,240 knows. You know, it's like the same 716 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:07,240 signing algorithm it it just does what you want it to do 717 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:10,920 under the hood. Comet similarly is used all over 718 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,200 the place in a bunch of Etherium projects and elsewhere. 719 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,440 One thing that's been very interesting is that restaking 720 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:27,120 projects are using the cosmos. The Cosmos stack in in a number 721 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,280 of different places. I think it might be the most 722 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,360 popular re staking architecture. It's kind of that and the OP 723 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:40,400 stacks seem to be used most frequently, but it's not branded 724 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,560 as such. You know, it's slow, yeah. 725 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,240 It's like deploying ABS, but you're like using the Cosmos 50K 726 00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:48,920 and Comet and maybe even IBC in some instances. 727 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,120 So that interop is already kind of happening. 728 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,600 We just, it's a little bit more under the hood. 729 00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:02,800 The things that are most annoying are signing and this is 730 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,160 this is a just a general issue like Bitcoin signing is not the 731 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,440 same as Ethereum signing is not the same as Solana signing is 732 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:16,920 not the same as Cosmos signing. And that causes a massive amount 733 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,120 of pain. And that's one of the reasons 734 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,680 that the ecosystems are so segmented right now, in my 735 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,200 opinion, is means you have different wallet ecosystems, you 736 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,120 have different the, the, the kind of front door for users 737 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:35,960 ends up being different. So signing abstractions like MPC 738 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,840 style protocols, I think are going to be, you know, important 739 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,360 for like solving, solving things at that layer, But that's going 740 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,760 to take a long time to, to transition beyond that. 741 00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,440 There are different message passing systems. 742 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:55,440 There are different middlewares for, for routing messages 743 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,520 between different domains. There are different, you know, 744 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,240 you have to pay with different fees. 745 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,840 So that kind of all these things need to be solved together in 746 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,960 order to get user flows that are, that are really seamless. 747 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,120 It's happening, though. I mean, and like I was saying at 748 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:18,200 the beginning, there are specific routes today that cross 749 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,200 multiple different chains, multi different ecosystems. 750 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,680 And they're, they're great. They they work, they work great. 751 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,440 It it's just going to take a while to kind of like expand 752 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,840 that to the point where it really feels seamless 753 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,560 everywhere. Can you give examples of where 754 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:40,600 you think it feels seamless now? Yeah, I'm so you can go from 755 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,800 Solana if you have USDC on Solana and you want to send it 756 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,440 to Osmosis and buy whatever Osmo, you can do that in one 757 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,280 click and it it's very fast. That's that's, that's cool. 758 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:03,040 So CCP opened up a lot of a lot of these routes for us. 759 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,760 We are working on a a fast transfer system that's going to 760 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,840 allow for similar interoperability between some 761 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:17,480 Etherium domains and and Cosmos. We also work with a bunch of the 762 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,480 like roll up ecosystem, modular ecosystem. 763 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:30,000 So we've been doing, I mean, similarly you could go from base 764 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:39,440 to to a roll up that's using hyperlane bridge in one click 765 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,760 today and fitting all the the pipes together to make that work 766 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,800 is was pretty crazy. But like and and you might end 767 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,800 up with a get an account that that requires a different wallet 768 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,280 at the end. Like that's kind of annoying, 769 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,480 but you can't actually send the transaction or send the tokens 770 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,400 and have them arrive at the at the other side. 771 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:07,920 So do you see skip kind of going the this Mikey chain route kind 772 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,000 of in kind of making things easier for defs because kind of 773 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,320 like as you stay in kind of currently this is primarily on 774 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,840 Cosmos only. Do you intend to kind of expand 775 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:23,040 into this cross chain world? Yeah. 776 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,480 I mean I would say we're already kind of expanded it. 777 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,120 It's just going to be incremental. 778 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:35,080 So we are working with a number of restaking projects or folks 779 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,000 that are using Cosmos SDK in in different demands. 780 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,680 We're actually even integrating with non Cosmos projects like 781 00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:48,840 like our or projects that aren't using the using Cosmos 782 00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,920 technology. So we're looking at shared 783 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,000 sequencers for instance, and just deploying our our side car 784 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:02,640 process in order to feed Oracle messages directly into the 785 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,200 sequencer. And there actually isn't Cosmos 786 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,640 SDK necessarily involved at all. So yeah, there's different kind 787 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,600 of levels of interop here. And I mean, one of the 788 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,400 challenges is just kind of knowing where to put your 789 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:24,720 emphasis cause things kind of go in all directions. 790 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,680 So there's a lot of people who are using the technology in one 791 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,600 way or or another. And you know, we're trying to 792 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,560 see which way is the winds blowing and, and how that kind 793 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,200 of aligns with our, with our business and and who we want to 794 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,280 develop relationships with. So what would you say? 795 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:46,400 How is the wind blowing right now? 796 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,680 So what's what's in the pipe plus Skip? 797 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,400 Well, a couple of things. First of all, we we're like 798 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,880 constantly just doing a lot of work on the core stack. 799 00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,280 And so we're, we're doubling down on that. 800 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:09,360 Cosmos SDK has a ton of adoption and we want to be, we want to be 801 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,480 better, want to be easier to deploy. 802 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:17,720 We want to just be more standardized and just left less 803 00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:19,720 sharp edges. So that, that's something that 804 00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,200 we're working on. And then they're a bunch of 805 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:29,280 users of the technology that, that we're, that we want to work 806 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,080 with or are working with. Like I said, restaking projects 807 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,400 are is just a natural fit for us. 808 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,640 We'd also love to see more projects deployed directly into, 809 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:44,800 you know, using the technology alone. 810 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,400 One, one thing that's like a little bit of a contrarian take 811 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:55,840 that we have, I have, I guess is proof of authority is like 812 00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,720 totally under leveraged when we've used it in certain 813 00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:06,280 instances and worked with projects using Apoa chain. 814 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,920 It's actually really nice and kind of yeah, I mean it's like a 815 00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:15,280 it's a great deployment loop and for a lot of use cases, I think 816 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,600 it's, it's absolutely secure enough. 817 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,880 It's absolutely like decentralized enough. 818 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,400 It there's just a lot of like low security or like and there's 819 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,560 a lot of ways to enhance Apoa system particular with restaking 820 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,720 and things like this. So, so that'll be a way that, 821 00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:34,800 you know, that could be like a new market that that could open 822 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,280 up. And yeah, like I mentioned, the 823 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,360 shared sequencers is, is something that we're kind of 824 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,880 exploring at the moment integrating our our Oracle to 825 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:49,280 that these Bitcoin L TS are like really heterogeneous and what 826 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,000 they offer. But we're there are a few 827 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,640 projects that are are natural fit and and we're starting to to 828 00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,640 work with them. Yeah, super interesting. 829 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,680 Looking forward to seeing that. Where can people find out more 830 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,160 about Skip? Yeah. 831 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,280 So we just did kind of a rebrand and changed our URL. 832 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:17,920 So it's skip dot build and the the Twitter handle or the X 833 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,920 handle is is still at skip protocol. 834 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:23,320 Perfect. Super nice. 835 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,960 It's been a pleasure, Sam. Thank you so much for coming on. 836 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,480 Thank you for having me, this was great. 837 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,880 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 838 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:34,840 We release new episodes every week. 839 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,240 You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, 840 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,280 YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 841 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,520 And if you have a Google Home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 842 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,560 listen to the latest episode of the Epicenter podcast. 843 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,640 Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a full list of places where you 844 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,880 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 845 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,320 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 846 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,480 inbox as they're released. 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