1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,520 Aroma has native generalized intents which none no existing 2 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:07,200 system right now has or has any clue how to get. 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,280 Intents are clearly the next level abstraction because most 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,280 users. Don't actually know which. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:16,840 Counterparty they want to interact with. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,520 For privacy preserving system to work, you need intents. 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,800 And why is that? Well, privacy preserving systems 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,920 as they push data to edge devices. 9 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,120 Right? Like now your state lives on 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,600 your phone rather than into in the big database in the middle 11 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,040 wherever I can see it. And with intents, you can make 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,240 statements and some updates over your local state. 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,920 And then you can have solvers that aggregate and sort of 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,280 compute over this. Certainly right now, like 15 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,160 Coinbase and Croc and and Finance are the single largest 16 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:47,960 mixers in the world. Hello and welcome to Epicenter, 17 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,120 the show, which talks about the technologies, projects and 18 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,720 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 19 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,520 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Adrian Brink. 20 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:02,920 He is the Co founder of Enoma. And yeah, before we talk with 21 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,040 Adrian, I just want to share a few words for more sponsors this 22 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,120 week. 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Cool. 52 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:49,240 Thanks so much for for coming on Adrian, I know you were, I mean, 53 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,760 I've we've known each other since 2017. 54 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,120 I guess we were both working at Tenement sort of at the 55 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,600 beginning of the Cosmos ecosystem and and those. 56 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,880 Sort of wild times. Yes, where you have learned the 57 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,040 right way to build a crypto project and then you took all 58 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:16,120 these learnings, right And then some years later you started the 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,480 project in OMA together with Chris goes right and all right, 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Chris goes, who is also one of the key engineers at at Cosmos, 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,840 I think implemented a lot of IBC. 62 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,600 So what what what was the vision for you guys? 63 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,920 Like what? What is a OMA? 64 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,960 Yeah, I can quickly. I mean, the Cosmos days were 65 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,760 interesting. So I joined like January 2017, 66 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,480 just around the time of the fundraiser. 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,600 We're like 7 people, I think, with like Bucky and Ethan Fry 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:55,200 and Rigel back in the day. And I mean, I think Cosmos got a 69 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,440 lot of things wrong, but also got a lot of things right to 70 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,320 some extent. Like it was actually very 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,920 innovative and it actually cared deeply about decentralization, 72 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,080 right? And so like, and by the way, I 73 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,320 think we people don't give enough credit to Chris here. 74 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,560 I think the only reason why IBC works and ship just because 75 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,880 Chris like spent a year and a half of his life and making sure 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,800 that actually worked in the end, like without Chris, I think we 77 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,160 would all be one interoperability standard poor 78 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,120 right now. No, but so the vision behind a 79 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,320 normal was always how do we get a unified developer expert? 80 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,040 Because so like historically we looked at this and like, so me 81 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,240 and Chris, we built a couple of, so we build the validator 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,680 Cryptum apps. One of their very first proofs, 83 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,680 take validators start around the same time as Course 1, scaled it 84 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:49,080 up to a ton of assets in retrospect, and then very gladly 85 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,480 sold it to you guys. Because we very quickly realized 86 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,920 that like validation is fun for like 6 months and I like 87 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,160 wrecking service for six months. But afterwards it was like, 88 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,360 yeah, I like protocol engineering and research much 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:01,920 more than I like physical infrastructure. 90 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,160 And so like around the middle of 2020, our Chris and I sat down. 91 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,640 I was like, OK, what, what is, where's the space going? 92 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,160 And everyone seemed to be sort of copy and pasting the three 93 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,880 same, the same 3 contracts to yet another chain or yet named 94 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,920 them another name. And somehow this was supposed to 95 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,720 be progress on like actually building the future that we kind 96 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,040 of envisioned on like a heterogeneous trust world. 97 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,280 Everyone has everyone use block chains all the time. 98 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:35,440 Block chains becomes coordination substrate not only 99 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,480 for financial transactions, but for sort of societies as a 100 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,480 whole, right? And honestly, no one was really 101 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,000 working on this in the middle of 2020. 102 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,760 And it, it felt very depressing at the time. 103 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,160 I have to say that like everyone had abandoned sort of the idea 104 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,400 of we should be building fundamental infrastructure that 105 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:52,720 actually makes people's life better. 106 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,080 And instead of like, well, let's copy these like 370 contracts to 107 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,920 yet another chain. And somehow this is going to 108 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,360 make progress, right? And this, I mean, to some 109 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,200 extent, we still have this nowadays where I'm like, 110 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,080 everyone is very much focused on this incremental innovation. 111 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,480 Like some people are trying to make a slightly faster 112 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,520 consensus. Some people are trying to make a 113 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,560 slightly different proof system, but to Cosmos's and also like to 114 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Cosmos's credit, actually at the time, it's like it proposed a 115 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,600 new model. Unlike we weren't going to live 116 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,000 in a single chain world, we were going to live in this multi 117 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,040 chain world. And so with a Noma, this is kind 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,040 of thinking that through to the end, which is a you need privacy 119 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,560 guarantees. I thought like we figured that 120 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,160 this was going to be very fundamental if you didn't have a 121 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,200 basically a platform that enabled developers and users to 122 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,880 obtain privacy guarantees where you always have to bolt on the 123 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,040 privacy guarantees after the fact that this was never going 124 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,240 to work. And I think this is still 125 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,880 holding true today. This is why I think sort of this 126 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,040 is very challenging for existing ecosystems to really get mass 127 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,840 market attraction because fundamentally, like my parents 128 00:06:57,840 --> 00:06:58,920 will not want to use them, right? 129 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,920 And like for Dejan casino gambling, this is fine, but even 130 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,480 if you're liquid hedge fund like you need privacy guarantees so 131 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,440 that you don't leak your strategies to everyone else. 132 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,400 The other aspect was you needed AII think we always held the 133 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,680 view that the world was going to be heterogeneous. 134 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,360 Trust, it seemed or it, I mean, it's very unlikely. 135 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,680 I think that there's going to be a single chain to rule them all. 136 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,200 And I sometimes like to do this experiment or like ask people. 137 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,920 I was like, do you like a one world government? 138 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,520 And pretty much no one likes that idea. 139 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,720 And yet we're designing for these models right now where 140 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,560 like we have a single security model to rule. 141 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,520 And so our fundamental thesis was at the time even that like 142 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,800 the world is going to be heterogeneous trust, but you 143 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,920 want to have a unified sort of abstraction that developers and 144 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,040 users can work against so that you don't have to rewrite your 145 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,840 applications all the time. And I mean, we're seeing this 146 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,040 right now where if you go from Etherium to Solana as a 147 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,200 developer, this is a complete different system. 148 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,520 Like you move trust models, but it's a completely separate and 149 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,680 develop environment that you now have to like development 150 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:02,760 environment that you have to deal with. 151 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,840 And that's sort of led to the third component, which is this 152 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,680 unified operating system extract from. 153 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,320 It's like you want to have a unified like operating system 154 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,040 API that developers and users can rely on that can work in 155 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,040 many heterogeneous trust models where ideally even heterogeneous 156 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,440 trust models can interoperate with each other and sort of like 157 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,400 as the trust boundaries, as the contents of systems allow. 158 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,840 And so like the Super simple example is it always struck me a 159 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,799 super unlikely that like USDC would be issued globally on 160 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:39,960 Ethereum because and like we're seeing it's just a weird model 161 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,679 where it's like no national government is going to give out 162 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,720 or like USD, not USC, no national government, like the 163 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,560 Swiss government is never going to give up its monetary 164 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:50,040 sovereignty to like some Ethereum valid. 165 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,360 I said, like they will always want their own sovereign system. 166 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,480 They can issue their own money and right, So like we, we need 167 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,560 to end up in this world where we have many of these heterogeneous 168 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:01,880 systems, but while still allowing that assets and 169 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,200 developers and applications can flow between them. 170 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,120 So that as a user, I can just say, well, I have some state on 171 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,440 my system a like call this the Switzerland system. 172 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,000 And now I'd like to use the exactly same application, but 173 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,760 I'd like to like do some settlement on, I don't know, on 174 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,000 global Etherium. And so I normal was always 175 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,320 designed around this. How do we get heterogeneous 176 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,960 trust plus privacy? And then the last part, which I 177 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,200 think most people know a normal for which is intense, which is 178 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,000 really something that like to a large extent we came up with the 179 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,840 idea of intense or Chris came up with the idea of intense in 180 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,800 2016, I think when he built the Wyvern decks protocol, which is 181 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,600 the back end to open C pride C port. 182 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,320 Still to this day. The single out is gas used on 183 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,840 etherium, which is this proto intense system. 184 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,600 It was the inside that really most users don't have 185 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:53,440 transactions. They have intense, they have 186 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,760 like a partial state transition. They don't have I would like to 187 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,680 like just send you my Bitcoin to you. 188 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,400 I mean, this exists in the Bitcoin case, but like anything 189 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,760 complex doesn't have this. So it's like I would like to 190 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,120 treat a for BI don't know whether with a with one counter 191 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,040 party, with 15 counter parties. And so this is really what the 192 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,520 where the intent angle comes from. 193 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,040 And so as a whole, taking together, you get this a normal 194 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,000 reason, decentralized operating system for privacy preserving 195 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,320 like for applications like. Think of it this way. 196 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,360 It's a unified operating system abstraction that allows 197 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,760 developers to write applications and users to use those 198 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,400 applications irrespective in which specific trust model or 199 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:35,800 heterogeneous trust model they run. 200 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,400 That's maybe a super quick, not quick, but an intro. 201 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,000 Right. Yeah. 202 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,280 I think there's a lot of things here that you know, I think will 203 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,680 be take some time to unpack. I'm just wondering maybe on the 204 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:53,080 last thing. So you said that they 205 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,520 decentralized an operating system for decentralized 206 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,880 applications. I mean, I've been very involved 207 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,920 in as I'm very curious about this phrase operating system in 208 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,160 this context. I mean, I know Freestyle, I've 209 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,360 been very involved in herbage, right, which has the city of 210 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,800 like an operating system. I guess this has maybe been used 211 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,640 in some other ways in crypto as well, like this term operating 212 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,040 system. I'm curious, like what when you 213 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,840 say operating system, what does that mean? 214 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,520 Yes. It comes from the specific 215 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,720 analogy to traditional computers where really like the way you 216 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,560 can currently think of something like the EVM or the SVM is as a 217 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:32,840 specific CPU. Think of this as an Intel CPU 218 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,840 and an ARM CPU, right? And so at the moment we're all 219 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,040 living in this world where you program directly against the 220 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,600 CPU. And the operating system analogy 221 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,280 comes from the fact that enormous operating system can 222 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,520 really abstract the way the differences in underlying CPU. 223 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,440 So an underlying virtual machine, which means it's like 224 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:57,560 enormous not designed to replace the SDM or the EVMI mean it's 225 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:00,440 like enormous intent machine. The intent machine is sort of 226 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,520 sits on top of existing virtual machines and just allows develop 227 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,840 so developers can build applications against the 228 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,080 operating system AP is. And I mean, this was sort of the 229 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,440 fun of an unlock with Windows to some extent in the past where 230 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,360 all of a sudden I could start building applications against 231 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:22,560 Windows and I didn't have to care which specific CPU that 232 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:24,400 that Windows operating system was running on. 233 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,440 And the other thing is the operating system knowledge works 234 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 also quite well because the operating system like Windows 235 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,200 gave you a bunch of system level AP is for example, like 236 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,720 distributed systems. So like in Anoma, you can, you 237 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,760 can like talk to the operating system of Anoma in terms of like 238 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,920 figuring out how to like route in the heterogeneous trust 239 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,320 world. So it's not just you operate on 240 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,680 a single CP on a single operating system that gives you 241 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,000 the AP is to operate on sort of a network set of operating 242 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,360 systems. Does that make sense? 243 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,960 OK. I mean, before you were talking 244 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,800 about right when you sort of introduce Anoma, you mentioned 245 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,120 some things like, OK, you think privacy is important. 246 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,840 You think then there will be like, you know, kind of like 247 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,160 different chains or different environments with different 248 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,360 trust assumptions that you want to have to unify the API and the 249 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,040 intense. Now, I think these are more like 250 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,480 you're not really a description of like what is a normal, maybe 251 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,400 more some things unlike views you have about how you know how, 252 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,240 what is important and what should something look like. 253 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:34,800 But then it's like it's a normal Is it like a chain and it also a 254 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,560 framework for developing block chains and the OR like how would 255 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:42,840 you? Yeah, it it, it's an 256 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,480 interesting. Question What is a Noma? 257 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,360 What is a Noma? A Noma is probably the single 258 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,680 most sort of modular and composable stack you can have. 259 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,080 I mean, you can use a Noma to build your own block chain. 260 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,480 I mean, I'd be very happy with the Swiss government at some 261 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,200 point adopt A Noma to like run their own sovereign Switzerland 262 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:08,000 chain to issue the digital CHF. You can also a Noma is also, you 263 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,760 can deploy a Noma, the operating system directly to Etherium. 264 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,640 So a Noma can run on Etherium. And then sort of like now you 265 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,280 have all these instances and they may also be a global and 266 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,840 Noma chain, right? There's going to be most likely 267 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,680 a global and Noma chain which is separate from the protocol. 268 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,520 It's like it's not directly tied to each other. 269 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,040 Like there's a normal the protocol specification then on 270 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,240 OMA. Cosmos SDK in the Cosmos Hub. 271 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,520 Kind of similar actually. I was thinking about this 272 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,680 earlier today as well. It's like, and I think honestly 273 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Cosmos is actually a good example of like the model really 274 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,480 worked like of like this general framework to build many 275 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,040 different things. The other thing that also is on 276 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,160 OMA is the fact that all these systems have a common PDP stack. 277 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,760 So like if you have a Noma and Etherium and you have global 278 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:01,000 enoma, as a user you interact with the unified P2P stack like 279 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 you in code you specify and like in your application in your 280 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,920 intent you specify whether you would like to be settled on 281 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,440 global Etherium or global enoma. This is not like you have to 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,200 modify to like point to a different RPC, and that's just 283 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:22,120 one unified P2P stack, so. That's basically like, OK, I'm 284 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,040 somebody developing an application and then, you know, 285 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,360 I sort of like create transaction and then that's sort 286 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,800 of unified regardless of where it goes. 287 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,680 I mean, because then in, you know. 288 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,840 Yes, you as a developer, as a user effectively get a unified 289 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,440 API here where you describe in code rather than sort of like in 290 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,000 physical infrastructure where you where you want your state to 291 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,160 live, right. And I think so if the important, 292 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,120 because the important thing is you need to figure out as a 293 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,840 user, as a developer, where do you want your state to live. 294 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,800 I mean, this is actually this is the hard question. 295 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,000 State is fundamentally the hard question. 296 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,520 Any systems it is not about sort of like specific execution 297 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,800 environments or ZK proves. It's like who controls which 298 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,840 part of state. And so with intense, you can 299 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,680 specify like I would like the state to live on Etherium. 300 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,720 I would like to use Etherium, for example, as my ordering 301 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,520 machine. So in that case, the ordering is 302 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,480 done by the theorem validators or you say, you know, I would 303 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,040 like my ordering of my intense transactions to be done by like 304 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,360 Brian and I would like my state to then be settled to Etherium. 305 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,840 So you get all this flexibility along the stack without having 306 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,000 to all the time like cherry pick like in like monkey patch your 307 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,160 own components together. Like I normalize a lot of things 308 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,760 because it tries to sort of make application development and 309 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,600 usage of these systems and order of magnet easier. 310 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,040 I mean, I know I was saying this in the beginning here on the 311 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,720 university part, right? Like I think everyone else is. 312 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,040 Like it sounds much more confusing. 313 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,480 I mean, like if if you go to right, if you go to someone 314 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,560 who's like AI just want to build some kind of decentralized app, 315 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,079 right? And we like, oh, I can build it 316 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,880 on like Solana, easy to understand, right? 317 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:14,079 Even I going to build my own cosmos chain pretty easy, you 318 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,480 know, maybe slightly more hard, but still pretty easy to 319 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,040 understand. But now this kind of thing of I 320 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:26,160 can, you know, Shard it up, have some part here their execution. 321 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:27,920 I mean, I would just be confused. 322 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,400 Let. Me say you can. 323 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,400 I'm explaining the complex path. You can just have the simple 324 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,160 path. If you just want to deploy your 325 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,640 application to Ethereum using a Noma and get all the privacy 326 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,880 guarantees for example and the intent like generalized intense, 327 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,080 you can just do this deploy the like you write an application in 328 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,160 Dubix, you click deploy to Etherium, it's deployed to 329 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,560 Etherium. Now you have to decentralize the 330 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,040 application. So, so OK, so but decentralize 331 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,440 the application on Etherium? What does that mean? 332 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,040 I mean because the transactions don't happen on Etherium I 333 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,160 presume. So these are like normal 334 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,480 Etherium transactions then? This looks much more like a 335 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,840 plasma construction. Where specifically how this 336 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,720 works is you have a settlement contract on Etherium, you have 337 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,960 the Enoma resource machine implementation on Etherium, and 338 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,360 then you have users that want to send in tents. 339 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,280 They send those in tents. For example, you have a simple 340 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,440 order book exchange with privacy guarantees, which is something 341 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,720 that you can't currently build in any existing system. 342 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,600 Users send these in tents to the Enoma, P to P stack solvers pick 343 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,320 them up, solvers compose them together. 344 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,200 If there's an overlap, then this transaction gets settled to 345 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,560 Ethereum. That's sort of the simple case 346 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,640 here where. So yeah, this is actually very 347 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,400 important to understand because people keep asking you this all 348 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,680 the time. There's no specific or Noma 349 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,560 chain that you must send your thing to. 350 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,680 Like everyone else is presenting these like abstractive 351 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,280 frameworks that all effect essentially boil down to let 352 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,280 like for example, the chain abstraction folks are kind of 353 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:03,920 like this. And it's like, oh, let's just 354 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,960 build this out yet another change like solve our all our 355 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,640 abstraction problems. And then users only need to 356 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,880 interact with one chain that then orders and sequences 357 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,040 everything. And then so if we reach out from 358 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,160 there, I know what's taking the very different approach. 359 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,360 And like users like there's no, no more chain. 360 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,200 Users can directly use the operating system to wherever 361 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,280 they want to use it. So in the case of Etherium, this 362 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,360 be really just an Etherium contract. 363 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,120 Some state that you deployed to the enoma resource machine on 364 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,400 Etherium, that state now lives on Etherium. 365 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,640 You send your transactions on PP stack and then those get settled 366 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,120 to Etherium. And so you guys like, I presume 367 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:49,520 one of your areas or one of your goals is to get people to build 368 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,320 decentralized applications on, you know, the Enoma stack? 369 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,880 Yes, broadly speaking, build against the normal resource 370 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,640 machine. This is how it describes build 371 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,840 against the operating system. Honestly, where a user 372 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,200 specifically wants to run the operating system, that is going 373 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,080 to be up to them. But I mean, I'm not the 374 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,240 developer, right? I'm not the main, I'm not quite 375 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,680 your target audience. But you know, I've sort of been 376 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,480 in crypto for a while as a, as a someone who, you know, can try 377 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,080 to put myself into the shoes of someone wanting to build some, 378 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,640 some decentralized application. I'm I'm a bit confused because 379 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,440 when you say build against a normal resource machine I'm I 380 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,880 have just like no idea what that means or why somebody would want 381 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,120 to do it. Maybe to make it very simple, 382 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,080 imagine you build an application against a normal resource 383 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,760 machine and then you. What does that mean? 384 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,960 It's, I mean, you build against when you build an application 385 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,480 against the EVM, right? You build against a specific 386 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,160 instruction set, against a specific state model, against 387 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,160 the. Validity. 388 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,120 Or Viper, right? Like there are many things that 389 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:01,840 target the underlying. So like think of it, you build 390 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,080 against some system calls. Like you build an application 391 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,280 and then at runtime you decide, well, today I like the Ethereum 392 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,440 folks better. So you you deploy to Etherium 393 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,400 and tomorrow you decide, well, turns out they didn't like the 394 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,400 thing I had. And then you just deploy to 395 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,200 Solana and you don't have to rewrite your application. 396 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,000 This is sort of like the fundamental point or you deploy 397 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,640 this to your local community chain if that ever gets set up 398 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,640 and you don't have to rewrite your application. 399 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,760 So it's a developer. It's honestly just like a lot 400 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,680 easier because it's kind of like I, I guess in the past people 401 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,440 argued, well, we should all be building in Intel CB US. 402 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,440 And then Windows came along and people started building against 403 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,000 Windows, and all of a sudden developers realized, holy crap, 404 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,400 it's way easier to build against Windows because now I can run my 405 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,880 application whenever Windows runs. 406 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,280 OK, but so I get that that's in it. 407 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,200 I get that there's some value in that, but that seems to be 408 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,480 something that's actually pretty well covered by the EVM. 409 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,280 No, Because I mean in the end we have now seen, right, you have 410 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:12,040 like EVM Ethereum, you have EVM roll ups, you have Cosmo EVM and 411 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,960 Cosmos EVM and Avalanche EV Ms. everywhere, right? 412 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,920 So like that kind of thing of like, oh, I build my application 413 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,280 in Solidity and you know, I have a lot of benefits because 414 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,640 whatever it's like very popular and I can deploy it somewhere 415 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,920 else. Because if you guys building 416 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,160 like a completely new stack, then well, you actually, I mean, 417 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,760 I get that maybe it is a stack that yeah, in principle it can 418 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,240 be used in many different places. 419 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,080 So if it gets adoption, then maybe you would have a similar 420 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,800 kind of benefit that people have today in Bennett in building on 421 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,320 top of Solidity. Which we really shouldn't an 422 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,160 estimate. Anoma has native generalized 423 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,520 intense which none no existing system right now has or has any 424 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,680 clue how to get, and it has. Why is that valuable? 425 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,720 Because fundamentally, like your application, if you build them 426 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,520 directly against the EVM or the SVM, for example, I mean, they, 427 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,680 those applications fundamentally rely on transactions. 428 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,080 So you need to build a bunch of extra moving pieces in order to 429 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200 actually model the domain that your that your users are going 430 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,840 to have. Because most users don't have 431 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,160 transactions anymore. They have like, I would like to 432 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,320 trade A for B and I actually don't care against who. 433 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,640 Like this is not a transaction you can build. 434 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,960 I mean, like you have some of the poor man's version of this, 435 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,000 which is an AMM, but an AMM only works for assets. 436 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,840 It doesn't work for NFTS, for example. 437 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,480 So like just you want generalized intense, I think as 438 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,160 a long term goal here and even a short term goal because so. 439 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Generalized intense, like the, the, the so I get, I mean, 440 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,760 right, So if if we talk about intense, right? 441 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,360 So I guess the simple example of intent to be something like like 442 00:23:54,360 --> 00:24:00,280 a limit order, you know, where I'm like, hey, I am willing to, 443 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,080 you know, sell whatever E for one E for USCC and, you know, 444 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,440 give me the best price and I'm paid winning up to pay up to 445 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:17,720 this, something like that. And then I saw in the AMM case, 446 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,000 it's pretty clear. But like, so the argument is 447 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,120 here that it makes it easier for an application developer to 448 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:32,080 allow people to sort of, you know, more more express desire 449 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,280 about the end state they want to get to as opposed to, you know, 450 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,480 a specific transaction. And that that's valuable for or 451 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,360 important for a lot of use cases and and so. 452 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,560 You for example get like nice benefits such as you get 453 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,560 composed composed liquidity. Currently you have to make 454 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,960 specific choices on do you interact with this AMM or that 455 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,760 AMMI mean there's like some aggregation that can happen as 456 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,560 well. But genuine with Gen. license, 457 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,120 you can have the thing like, well, I'd like to sell like 1 458 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:03,720 NFT again, like 2 green cryptic kitties against some ETH. 459 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,280 And maybe there's no direct match because the person that 460 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,360 sort of wants to buy the two green cryptic kitties only wants 461 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,800 to take US to C, right? And so you can do these multi 462 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,120 party compose like multi intent composing. 463 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,160 I think that's one very huge benefit. 464 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,120 The other benefit is as a user, you can also say things like I 465 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,760 would like to trade A for B, and I actually don't care whether 466 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240 it's settle on optimism, arbitrary, more Etherium, just 467 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,920 give me whatever is quickest or fastest. 468 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,600 This is something that you just can't express right now. 469 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,800 This is sort of where the heterogeneous trust component or 470 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,480 heterogeneous trust model component comes in. 471 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,640 You can really think of this as defragmenting a lot of the 472 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,800 state, but even just in a single sort of like state model, like a 473 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:53,200 single chain world, we can compose like intense can just 474 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,160 compose across every like however many cases you want to 475 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,760 have. Which means, for example, even 476 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,640 for like simple things like limit orders, you aren't limited 477 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,160 to settle them against an AMM. You can say, well, I'd like to 478 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,920 do A for B and maybe it's an AMM or maybe it's Brian, or maybe 479 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,840 it's only these five people on the white list, or maybe it's 480 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,520 not anyone on this blacklist or it's just 50 people that I've 481 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,280 never met and that I never coordinate with, right? 482 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,800 Like you have this full flexibility, which is just going 483 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,640 to give you deeper liquidity, if I'm honest, because intense can 484 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,920 match against all of it. And I think this is sort of the 485 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,400 fundamental thing where it's like intense are clearly the 486 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,520 next level of abstraction because most users don't 487 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,520 actually know which counterparty they want to interact with. 488 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,360 Like like when we came up with the so transaction centered 489 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,480 model in the Bitcoin world was always, well, I'll go to store 490 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,800 and I'll buy some milk and then I'll send some Bitcoin to the 491 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,960 store. But it turns out that the 492 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,200 reality of the applications are in the building is mostly around 493 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,400 like like Internet based coordination was like, I have a 494 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,840 4B who who wants to do the other side of the thing. 495 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,640 And I don't really want to have to figure out how to do manual 496 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,200 counterpart discovery, right. And I think this is This is why 497 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,520 you also see that everyone is starting to think and move 498 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,200 towards intense. And like this was actually very 499 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,400 validating because like when we start on Oma in the end of the 500 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,120 beginning of century one, people thought we're nuts. 501 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,480 Like we kept talking about these intense and like why intense 502 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,640 were going to matter. And now everyone is like, oh, we 503 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,240 should like start thinking about intense. 504 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,800 And like most of the defy application is starting to like 505 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,480 think on how to move towards intense. 506 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,680 And I mean, everyone is starting to like move to like application 507 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,440 specific intense, but I know it's the only generalized 508 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,720 intense framework out there where you just get generalized 509 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,720 intense. And like you don't have to build 510 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,840 the stack yourself anymore. You don't have to handle a bunch 511 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,920 of infer. You can just go, yeah, intense, 512 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,800 let me build my application. And I get like all this like 513 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,440 very annoying networking code to like do counterpart discovery 514 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,080 for free. Right, right. 515 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:05,120 So basic. I mean I kind of get that 516 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,240 argument where you say like, OK, they are like applications, 517 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,560 right. So basically defy applications 518 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,480 or similar types of application. I mean probably all defy and 519 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:23,240 training related realistically where you know this is relevant 520 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,520 and and I guess often is is also often around trying to minimize 521 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,640 MEV maybe. This is the other huge component 522 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,440 of intense. It's and by the way, this is not 523 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,160 just D5. I can give you an example in a 524 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,160 SEC on like where this where you have intense as a non D5 525 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,760 example. But so we, I think 3 years ago 526 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,720 or four years ago, made a mistake where we went like 527 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,360 instead of trying to actually come up with a technical 528 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,080 solution to this arising problem of MEV, we'd sort of like 529 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,840 engineered and called it a feature. 530 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,000 Another buck intense of the base layer, mostly soft because all 531 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440 of a sudden you can say, well, I have the specific state 532 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,360 transition and like you have to sign over. 533 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,440 Like I'm willing to trade one youth against, I don't know, 534 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,960 2000 USDC. And this can be ordered in 535 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,640 whatever, sort of like it can be included in a block in whatever 536 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400 order you want because you signed over a specific thing. 537 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,920 Like one of the big problems with transactions is that 538 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,480 transactions don't specify state outcomes, they just specify like 539 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,920 compute steps. So you end up like you have some 540 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,280 starting state, then you apply some, some like compute, and 541 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,240 then you get into some resulting state outcomes. 542 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,640 Well, now depending on how you interleave these computational 543 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,600 traces, you get to different state outcomes. 544 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,320 And intense, mostly soft because in intense you just specify 545 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,760 specific state outcomes and it doesn't matter how you 546 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,320 interleave them. And the other interesting 547 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,480 example of an intense centric system is actually 2 one is NOSA 548 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200 safe. Most people don't realize this, 549 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,800 but like if you have a partial multi sick, like we're in a one 550 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,880 out of two, like 2 out of 2 multi sick and we're using NOSA 551 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,960 safe, what actually happens is I create my partial signature, it 552 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,160 gets sent to the central server. You then create your partial 553 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,280 signature, pull my partial signature from the central 554 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,160 server, then submit both together. 555 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,360 I mean, this is a prototypical example of an intent centric 556 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,800 system where right now we're relying on very simplest 557 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,600 infrastructure in a normal with generalized intense, you don't 558 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,120 have to rely on the Centrust service anymore. 559 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,160 The other really good example is roll ups. 560 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,640 I mean, when you think of what a roll up does, it's you have a 561 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,120 user that has an individual state transition and then many 562 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,040 users and then the roll up that some computer collapse all these 563 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,440 things together. Well, honestly, that's just the 564 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,920 number of intents that you collapse into one to settle in 565 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,560 as a state transition function on some underlying base layer. 566 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,480 So like for example, with a Noma, you just get roll ups of 567 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,120 free to some extent. You don't have to build all your 568 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,680 own components for your own roll ups. 569 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,960 It just happens to fall out of this generalized infrastructure 570 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,800 that intends to adjust a better abstraction to also represent 571 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,560 things like roll ups. And maybe then the last thing, 572 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,680 because people really forget about this when they think about 573 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,560 privacy is one of the big things. 574 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,280 Well, everyone's privacy preserving systems. 575 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,960 And sort of my fundamental thesis is like, and this is just 576 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,120 true that like for privacy preserving system to work you 577 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,600 intense. And why is that? 578 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Well, privacy preserving systems as they push data to edge 579 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,280 devices, right? Like now your state lives on 580 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,760 your phone rather than into in the big database in the middle, 581 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,240 wherever I can see it. And with intense, you can make 582 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,280 statements and some updates over your local state, send them to 583 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,160 someone else and then have sort of the other person or like have 584 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,200 many of those intents flow into the centre of the network. 585 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,880 And then you can have solvers that aggregate and sort of 586 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,520 compute over this. Whereas right now we just all 587 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,160 computer of this like global known state in a privacy 588 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,800 preserving world, you're going to need intents because the 589 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,040 state just lives on edge devices at that point. 590 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,080 And you need to be able to make statements over like local state 591 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,360 that doesn't live in the middle. Right. 592 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,320 You're not trying to replace, you know, EVM or SVM or 593 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,040 something like that. So basically it means I as a. 594 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,480 So let's say I'm building some application on Solana and I'm 595 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:32,120 using the SVM, then I would use sort of like a Noma as almost as 596 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,080 like layer in between. This really depends on where you 597 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,360 are in your stack. I mean, if you already have an 598 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,600 existing application running on the EVM, for example on 599 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,680 Etherium, you may just want to move tiny parts of your state of 600 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,720 your application to a normal. That just means you rebuild this 601 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,040 against your normal resource machine. 602 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,160 But the important thing is you don't have to move all your 603 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,400 stated ones. Like I think one of the reasons 604 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,720 that I was always very skeptical and sort of just yet another L1 605 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,800 or yet another L2 was always like, you have to force all this 606 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,840 valuable state to move to this new L2 or this new L1, right? 607 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,200 Like you have this like massive bootstrapping problem. 608 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,200 And so with the nomas of the architecture, the operating 609 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,600 system comes to where the valuable state already lives. 610 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400 And so then over time, as you might want to migrate more and 611 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,240 more of your application to an OA, you can do this over time, 612 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,800 but users don't have to actually move the assets from Solana from 613 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,880 Etherium to yet another L1. They can just move within the 614 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,080 system into sort of the normal operating system operating the 615 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,840 normal protocol adapter on Solana on a theory. 616 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,440 Now you mentioned you guys are creating another L1. 617 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,240 What does the Anoma chain do? Very fundamentally, I mean 618 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,520 Anoma, the L1 is really designed as a it's a global consensus 619 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,480 mechanism, but they can also be deployed into local instances. 620 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,440 So you want to have someone Noma native consensus effectively 621 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,600 that can really leverage the operating system to its fullest. 622 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,360 Like maybe one good analogy you can think of is it's a hyper 623 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,639 optimized CPU implementation for anomaly operating system. 624 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,719 Generally speaking, most functionality of the operating 625 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,800 system should be available on most other virtual machines on 626 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,120 the enoma on the enoma chain is just going to be more optimized. 627 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,239 The other thing is there is a sort of. 628 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,120 It's the obvious place. Sorry I I totally did not 629 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,800 understand this at all. Like so basically a Norma L1 630 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:42,760 would be like a chain that I like me I as an application 631 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,600 developer, if I want to build like an app, I can now say, hey, 632 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,120 I go to Solana or I create a Cosmos chain or I build on this 633 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,440 and Norma L1 is that what? Yes, in in the end it's going to 634 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,360 come down to whether users like which chain users want to like 635 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,280 have their state live on. I I think currently we live in 636 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,840 this like various. Do not care like I mean users 637 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,640 like they. They ask any user the question 638 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,640 of like where do you want to stay to live on? 639 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,720 They will just be confused. Yes, but eventually users will 640 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:19,960 need to care for simple latency reasons. 641 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,760 I mean like one of the very fundamental things it's like and 642 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120 normal will always be faster, like local and normal will 643 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,280 always be faster. And Solana because it's like, 644 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,040 it's just like Solana is limited by speed of light and like it 645 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,880 has to run like 2 consensus rounds on over the global fiber 646 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,360 network. If the two of us want to trade 647 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,360 and we're in the same room, we should do this on a local 648 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,120 system. There's just like no way around 649 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,480 this. Like in the local system will 650 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:53,000 always just be faster, right? I agree that right now users may 651 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,240 not fundamentally care as much, but I think it's also mostly 652 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:02,040 because our like our industry has kind of designed a bunch of 653 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,080 infrastructure that's very target towards casino use cases. 654 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,680 Whether this is like going to survive long term is very 655 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,480 questionable to me. And for example, I mean, like 656 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,520 the other interesting thing to consider here is I think if 657 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,720 you'd ask people, I don't know, four years ago whether multi 658 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,960 chain was going to be a thing, everyone would have said no. 659 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Like people were at least very skeptical about this. 660 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,160 It it's very clear that the multi chain world played out 661 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,120 between like all the L2 chains as well as all the L1 chains. 662 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,960 I mean, the world is clearly going to be multi chain. 663 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,440 So users clearly have preferences on which chain they 664 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,120 are. And like where the state lives, 665 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,560 users care. I, I don't know about that 666 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,360 conclusion. I mean, you could, I think it's 667 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,440 like primarily the application developers know who make that 668 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,440 those decisions. I mean, obviously users care 669 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,520 about things like I want like faster transactions, right? 670 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,080 Or I want cheaper fees. And then of course that may 671 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:11,680 mean, OK, they're now like arbitrary more than than either 672 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,880 one because it's cheaper. But like, I mean, no one's going 673 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,080 to be, oh, I'd rather use. I mean, very, very few people 674 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,520 are going to be like, oh I'd rather use arbitrary then. 675 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,560 I. Think optimism. 676 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,160 Like who? Who does that? 677 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,640 I don't know. I mean, I certainly do because I 678 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,720 like because fundamentally effective security model and 679 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:37,480 your latency model. I mean this is just like 680 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,080 something that you shouldn't underestimate. 681 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,280 And I am, I, I think if users really like long time don't 682 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,720 care, honestly the best answer to like how to build a hyper 683 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,280 optimized system is like, we should do definity and just live 684 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,920 in a bunch of like centralized data centers because users don't 685 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,120 care where the state lives, right. 686 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,960 And so like, I mean, this is, I mean, if users don't care where 687 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,400 the state lives, I think it's a very strong argument that users 688 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,640 don't care about decentralization. 689 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,600 And I think with a no more, we've always take the approach 690 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,480 that decentralization actually matters because otherwise we're 691 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,880 just building very slow, expensive databases here. 692 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,320 And yeah, if, if decentralization doesn't matter 693 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:23,040 in the end, I have questions on like what our industry has been 694 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,440 doing in the last couple of years. 695 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,040 And but my point to this is like, I think decentralization 696 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,200 really fundamentally matters because users care about this 697 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,600 privacy, their security model. Why does decentralization 698 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,880 matter? As a whole, why does 699 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,400 decentralization matter? Yeah. 700 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,520 I I I think this comes really down to if decentralization 701 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,200 doesn't matter, we spend a cup like 10 years building probably 702 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,120 the single slowest database implementations that for some 703 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,840 reason keep like multiplying all the state across hundreds and 704 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,520 thousands of nodes across the globe for no particular reason. 705 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,160 Like if decentralization doesn't matter, we should just all be 706 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,040 running on a single server run by. 707 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,640 I know. Like, I guess, but like, let's 708 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,120 say, like what? What are some things that to me 709 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,600 feel like important, right? So 1 is that people anywhere in 710 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,680 the world can just use these blockchain networks, right? 711 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,760 That's like Open Access. I think that's like, and then 712 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,520 some kind of censorship resistance, you know, people can 713 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,680 like transact in whatever way they want and the transactions 714 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,960 to get censored and then you. Don't have decent transition? 715 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,360 You don't have any of those properties. 716 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:40,720 Maybe, maybe not right, but still it's not. 717 00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:44,400 They're not an ending of itself, but it's like a means to an end. 718 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,480 Yes, I agree with that. Sorry. 719 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,600 I mean, I, I think we want sense of resistance. 720 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,920 We want, I mean, we want World War three resilience to some 721 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,960 extent. Like we want the ability to have 722 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,960 many separate systems that can fail independently of each 723 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,600 other. We want to have privacy 724 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,160 guarantees at these base layers. And I think self 725 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,920 decentralization is an easy way to describe all of these things 726 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,560 because if we don't have decentralization, we're not 727 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,720 going to have any of these. And for example, actually this 728 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:13,080 is an interesting point on like. What do we want from these 729 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,560 systems? Like what I personally think is 730 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,240 actually very important feature of them is like on the eve of 731 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:23,320 World War three kind of thing, global fiber will go down. 732 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,960 And so like you can't rely on these global consensus systems 733 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,840 to remain up. And so like I know it's also 734 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,200 designed around this failure case. 735 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,280 And like, if you don't have global connectivity anymore, 736 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,520 you're not going to run Bitcoin or theory Ma Salana. 737 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,200 That's going to hold almost immediately. 738 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,840 And so you want to have infrastructure that people can 739 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,240 use locally to coordinate locally. 740 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,840 And this is really like what I think of as World War three 741 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,440 resilience of actual decentralization. 742 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,400 It's not about like having a single global decentralized 743 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,520 system. It's about having many systems 744 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,880 independently of each other that sort of like when the habitat 745 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,200 exists, can coordinate and like interoperate with each other. 746 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,320 But when the sort of unhappy path comes to be, the local 747 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,760 infrastructure still works. And I, I always use the example 748 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,440 of Switzerland's like the Swiss financial system will collapse 749 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,800 immediately as soon as like N Atlantic fiber goes goes down 750 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,240 like that, that none of these systems are set up in a way in 751 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,400 which like it can handle like global network outages. 752 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,480 And I know I was always designed as like as it almost like a drop 753 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,160 in replacement for local coordination infrastructure so 754 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,360 that there's a coordination substrate that people can run 755 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,960 locally. Then as sort of connectivity 756 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,840 recovers again, you can coordinate with people further 757 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,560 away. But then like for example, the 758 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,640 enormant L1 is going to be proof you say, you know, with like 759 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,400 something like tenement, like consensus or something similar. 760 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,880 It's. Heterogeneous Paxos plus 761 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,840 heterogeneous now all I mean. So realistically speaking, we 762 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,720 are all children of tenement at this point. 763 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,200 Like a cerium consensus, Pocket consensus. 764 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,360 Even Solana looks a lot like PBFT after Suite. 765 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,720 Definitely PBFT. So I roll out the sentence of 766 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,680 tenement at this point. Because there's some kind of, 767 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,960 because that again will be a system right where you're going 768 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,520 to have validated across the world. 769 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,040 There's going to be token stick. If the validators and they are 770 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,480 communicating with each other right to sending blocks around, 771 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,240 they're saying, OK, this block is valid. 772 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,600 This block is fine. So that system if you now have 773 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,200 OK, no more fiber because World War 3. 774 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,600 Any global consensus system is going to have tremendous 775 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:48,360 problems in sort of a globally global world scenario, including 776 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,720 Bitcoin. This is just going to be, I 777 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:51,720 think, like I think people really over. 778 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,240 But Bitcoin with like Starlink and stuff should probably be 779 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,720 pretty pretty OK. The satellites are the first 780 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,640 things to go. Like there's no. 781 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,000 Because they shut down or how? How are they? 782 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,520 Or because bandwidth is going to be heavily restricted to 783 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,440 military use cases. I mean, like I, I just don't see 784 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,280 a world image like we enter global a bunch of centralized 785 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,440 global conflict and we go like, but the mean coins must keep 786 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:24,240 going on global consensus. Like I, I hold the pessimistic 787 00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:25,520 view. Hopefully I'm wrong, I have to 788 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:32,920 say, but I mean actually. So Bitcoin if slow block times 789 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,280 may actually be helpful here because you're very. 790 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,040 Little for sure. Slow block times, definitely. 791 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,560 Very little bandwidth requirements for global 792 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,840 consensus, but like something Bitcoin may be fine. 793 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,080 If I had my vote for Bitcoin, you should slow down blocks like 794 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,000 an hour then we definitely fine I think. 795 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,680 I mean, it probably could may well have some kind of issues, 796 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,680 right, Like let's say Bitcoin would be because some of the 797 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,640 hash rates cut off and now all of a sudden basically the hash 798 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,240 rate like temporarily goes from like, you know 100% to 20%. 799 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:12,520 Now block time goes up to like an hour or two hours every block 800 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,200 and and then slowly gets long run again and. 801 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,320 Then we may have a problem that like so if global stabilization 802 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,520 time is ever more than 10 minutes, Bitcoin does never 803 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,440 convert this. This is sort of just a like the 804 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,160 fundamental life and sort of safety trade off that most of 805 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,960 these systems have made like tenement made the other tricks 806 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,640 right. Tenement will stop will halt 807 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,280 block production. But for example, if it takes on 808 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,840 average 11 minutes to gossip a Bitcoin block around the net the 809 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,440 globe, there will always just be multiple chains that converge 810 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,800 from each other because no one sees sort of like their next tip 811 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,440 prior to them having mined their own team. 812 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,640 No, I don't think that's true. This is it's a fundamental 813 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,520 property of the street systems. I mean, this is like This is why 814 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,720 tenement was so controversial at the time, because tenement took 815 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:58,880 the opposite approach, which is tenement decided to halt rather 816 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,840 than sort of like fork. I can find I ever talk about 817 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,400 this from like 2017 I think. But anyway, it seems to be it's 818 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,920 a little. Different, this is very much out 819 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,840 there and we've kind of like lost the track here, but. 820 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,520 Although important to think about. 821 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,080 Yeah, so. So I mean, like my entire thing 822 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,440 is like outside of like specific infrastructure, like we should 823 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,200 be thinking on how to design, like we should be designing 824 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,200 protocols that can actually be resilient. 825 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,760 As in like in like you want to think about the worst case 826 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,600 scenario. And so you want to have systems 827 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,960 that A, are hard to capture sort of politically and B, that can 828 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,520 interoperate with each other quite easily so that we don't 829 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,880 have sort of like these because even a single decentralized 830 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,200 network is still very centralized. 831 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,680 It's a single figure. I'd much rather have like 1000 832 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,880 decentralized systems, but it's super easy for users to switch 833 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,240 between any 500 of them because that means that no individual 834 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,000 system gets a tremendous amount of power and like an almost 835 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,560 fundamentally designed around this goal. 836 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,960 I mean, what one of the things that you really like about in 837 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,200 OMA and, and, you know, I think I remember having some, maybe 838 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,760 some podcasts, some discussions in the last year's, you know, I 839 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,400 was like asked about like, OK, how do we feel about crypto? 840 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,680 What, what are some things that, you know, concern me? 841 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,880 And probably the biggest thing is the privacy thing, right? 842 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,080 We're like in the beginning, we were always like, oh, you know, 843 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,400 there was even an assumption right in Bitcoin of it's 844 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,120 private, right? Because you know, you have a 845 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,840 different now, of course, very quickly. 846 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,880 It was again, not that private actually. 847 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,200 But then with time, I think what we've had is, of course, you 848 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,360 know, services like analysis, you know, where they really good 849 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,560 at the anonymizing transaction linking them together. 850 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,840 And then I think the other thing we've had is that exchanges that 851 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,160 are obviously regulators, they don't seem to like privacy 852 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,600 because they want to control and they want to have transparent 853 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,760 data. And so the privacy coin set that 854 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,400 that do exist and the privacy portion set do exist seem to 855 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,560 have a hard time getting listed on exchanges. 856 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,080 And of course, if you don't get listed on exchanges, no trading, 857 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,040 no money, it's very hard to go anywhere. 858 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,040 So I do really appreciate that you guys have always been kind 859 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,800 of strong proponents of privacy and of the importance of it. 860 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,680 But what does that look like You Are you also like you worried 861 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,400 about like for example exchange listings for like a Noma and? 862 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,280 The Super nice thing about South Noma's on a privacy coin or 863 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,600 privacy chain, it just happens to have the facilities for 864 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,640 developers to build privacy preserving applications. 865 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,440 And interesting enough, it's not even developers necessarily 866 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,080 deciding whether something is privacy preserving right like on 867 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,040 Etherium or on Solana. You have to make this choice on 868 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,280 like do I write it like is my entire application privacy 869 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,440 preserving or not? In a Noma, it's much more of a 870 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,640 user choice. It's like, does user A want to 871 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,520 interact with the system with this application privately or 872 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,080 not? It is not a system level choice. 873 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,760 A Noma can be fully used as a fully transparent system. 874 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,360 If no one ever cares about this, they don't have to worry about 875 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,800 it. But if individual users care, 876 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,960 they can make a choice And like, well, instead of attaching a 877 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,400 plaintext signature, I attach a zero knowledge proof. 878 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:25,840 And I I think sort of like the industry has largely failed at 879 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,440 making this like relatively nuanced thing understandable to 880 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,080 the outside world. But like, to me, ETH is a 881 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,480 privacy coin. I mean, like there is pools like 882 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,800 I mean, there is like ETH. ETH is clearly privacy. 883 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,400 So is used to see, by the way, like anything, because any like 884 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,840 permission is asset I can put into a contract on Ethereum that 885 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,560 like provides me strong privacy guarantees. 886 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,280 Like this, like notion of privacy coins is really like a 887 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,920 Bitcoin era thing where like assets were tied to fundamental 888 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,640 state machines. And like this distinction is 889 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,440 like, I mean, we can pretend it exists. 890 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,040 It just doesn't exist in reality because these assets can flow 891 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,560 across many different state machines. 892 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,320 They can like flow across bridges to other systems that 893 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,400 have different properties that they provide over these assets. 894 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,880 And so in Anoma, it's really like it's not a system level 895 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,200 choice. So an almost not a privacy 896 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,000 chain. I know it just happens to have 897 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,200 the right primitives to allow developers to build useful 898 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,200 privacy preserving applications that end users can then use. 899 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,280 And the nice thing is you can even have like an intent that's 900 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,960 privacy preserving and an intent that's transparent. 901 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,400 And both of them can be mashed together like you you aren't 902 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,800 splitting your liquidity or you aren't splitting your state 903 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,560 across private versus non private, which I think is 904 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,440 actually. But well, let's say, let's say 905 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,000 there's like something like a unit swap or something like 906 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,760 that. And now I want to trade with 907 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,800 this system and I have, you know, let's say I have E and I 908 00:49:52,800 --> 00:50:00,120 want USCC, then I can Noma allows me to do that in a 909 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,080 private way. If you built an app, I mean that 910 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,440 many caveat. So Noma is a so a very 911 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,160 fundamental. Basically I like if someone 912 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,280 builds an application that allows you to do this. 913 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,160 Yes, with A1 caveat. So it is a concern of the 914 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,680 application developer that person has to worry about that. 915 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,680 So it is a concern of like privacy comes with many nuances 916 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,880 very quickly, which is like if you want to trade A for B, you 917 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,360 must tell someone about your desire to trade A for B. 918 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:31,920 This is just always going to be true. 919 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,240 You must reveal at least your state changes to someone. 920 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,680 Now with a normal, you can sign an intent that says I'd like 921 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,240 like that just like authorizes A for B privately and you only 922 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:47,360 reveal the fact that you're willing to do A for B to one 923 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,800 specific solar. This is generally true for like 924 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,880 everything and like you can structure and you can't do 925 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:55,840 better than this. So I mean, this is a fundamental 926 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,240 limitation. Even with FHE, you aren't going 927 00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:00,360 to go. You aren't going to do better 928 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,200 than this. You could imagine that I I have 929 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,480 one if and I can basically say, hey, I can prove one if is 930 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:16,440 willing to trade for, you know, USCC at this price and someone 931 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:21,640 can get that, you know that intent without knowing whose if 932 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,320 it is. Yes, this is exactly sort of a 933 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,200 simple case of an OMA of like how you would like as a user 934 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,640 authorized private intent. But even there, I mean, you leak 935 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,680 some data. So if you want to go like you 936 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,440 don't even want to leak that like there's an intent to trade 937 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,360 A for B, you'd have to like figure out only to which 938 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,640 specific counterparties you want to reveal to your desire to 939 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,240 trade A for B. And the other thing is, I think 940 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,680 we always think of as like regulators don't like privacy. 941 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,240 But the other thing like, and I think it's because like Bitcoin 942 00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:56,160 status is like counter government movement. 943 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,640 Like I am much more concerned on the flip side, which is like I 944 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,120 own privacy for National Defense. 945 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,800 Like I like Switzerland, but I also have no illusions of the 946 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,880 Swiss financial system is going to like be resilient against the 947 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,760 like dedicated nation state attack. 948 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,440 And like so as a result, we currently creating these like 949 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,680 massive honeypots. And like, I'm worried on like, 950 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,080 how do I do local, like how do we build infrastructure that 951 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,120 allows us to do like National Defense, community defense, 952 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,840 where individual communities can actually run this infrastructure 953 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,840 to be resilient, hostile actors. And like, this is much for the 954 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,360 frame from which I'm thinking about privacy guarantees. 955 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,040 It's not like I'm trying to hide something. 956 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,400 It's more like I'm really worried about North Korea, like 957 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,080 getting access to all my financial data or like this all 958 00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,520 the Swiss financial data. And so like, I want to build 959 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,000 good infrastructure so the Swiss government can kind of run with 960 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,440 it. Yeah, I don't, I think the 961 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,880 crypto spaces like doing itself a huge disservice here on like 962 00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,640 and how the we phrase a little bit like our desires privacy 963 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,240 because it's like I trust my local community. 964 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,600 I like my local community. I'm actually really fine with 965 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,760 it. But and like I'm worried about 966 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,800 how do we build systems that can help defend my local community? 967 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,120 Because like, I think the fastest way to get Ethereum 968 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,920 killed tomorrow is we move over the US financial system into 969 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,320 Ethereum and then like tomorrow the NSA will wake up and go, 970 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,640 that's a terrible idea. North Korea's data minding the 971 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,240 fuck out of our financial information. 972 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,720 And then we're done here. Right? 973 00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:32,240 Like this is sort of like a very practical concern, which is, 974 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,120 yeah, I know this is like my it's privacy for National 975 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,960 Defense. I think we're not going to get 976 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,720 away, especially in this multi polar world order, which we're 977 00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:46,360 going to go into right now. You need to have resilient 978 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,560 systems as individual entities in order for you to prosper and 979 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:57,160 survive long term, I think. So you guys, so you know we've 980 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,160 talked about Noma so far. Now there is actually a chain 981 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:07,120 that you guys are launching or that is being launched which is 982 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:13,640 called Nomada which so can you can you share like what is a 983 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,080 Nomada and what's the relationship between a Noma and 984 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,680 Nomada? Yeah. 985 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:23,840 So you can really think of Namada to be the crazy people in 986 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,040 the Onoma community in the normal ecosystem that wanna try 987 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,320 privacy preserving guarantees really quickly in a simple 988 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,800 fashion. That's some other. 989 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,440 And so Namada is a sovereign L1 or I guess we could frame it as 990 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,120 an L2. I mean like the distinction 991 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,880 between what is an L1 and what is an L2 is kind of, it's very 992 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,800 relevant and mostly mimetic at this point. 993 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,000 There's no technical, reasonable technical distinction at like a 994 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,600 distributed systems level for this. 995 00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:54,920 But so Namada is just a subset of the normal community of 996 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,560 people that really deeply care privacy guarantees and that like 997 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,240 want to try this out? And So what Namada does is it 998 00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:05,720 provides a multi acid shielded pool or multi acid shielded set. 999 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,760 So you can move any asset into it, including NFTS, and you get 1000 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,480 uniform privacy guarantees for all of these assets. 1001 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,000 And this is generally true. This is generally also true that 1002 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,000 it's not just assets, it's generally data like the fact 1003 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:27,160 that we ascribe meaning to these bits like that we ascribe 1004 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,440 financial meaning to like these bits floating around in like 1005 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,000 some global state on Ethereum is really arbitrary. 1006 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,120 I mean, in the end is just data messages. 1007 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,680 So with with Armani, you just get very good data protection 1008 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,000 guarantees for whatever data you want to have. 1009 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,960 I mean, your data could represent financial assets, 1010 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,040 could represent messages. You pick your choice kind of 1011 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:52,040 thing. So, so I mean, for example, 11 1012 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,520 place where for example, like let's say me personally or I 1013 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,960 mean, I think a lot of users will probably try to get some 1014 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:04,520 privacy on chain is let's say you have like, you know, some 1015 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,280 Ethereum wallets or some Ethereum accounts. 1016 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,520 Now you want to buy, I don't know, NFT somewhere and then you 1017 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,400 want to, you don't want to have that in like, I don't know, you 1018 00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,040 main wallet that's like linked with all your, you know, stable 1019 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,400 coins and other, you know me, whatever you have in there. 1020 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,160 And then like, I mean, I guess the main way people do this 1021 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:31,440 today is the basically are going to use a centralized exchange, 1022 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:32,640 right? They're going to say, Hey, I'm 1023 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,320 going to create a new EFI address and then I send their, 1024 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,400 you know, maybe the EFA or staple corn or something. 1025 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,680 And then I buy, I buy that from there. 1026 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,520 Now, of course, in that case you still have maybe finance or 1027 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,160 Kraken or someone who will be able to connect these different 1028 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,360 addresses. But it's, it's like, for 1029 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,600 example, one of the use cases now for Namada that like I could 1030 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,240 do something like that and like, let's say move Eve in there and 1031 00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:02,360 then move Eve out of there to like a new wallet. 1032 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,280 And now is somebody's not going to be able to link those two 1033 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,400 wallets? I think that's a very possible 1034 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,760 use case. So certainly right now like 1035 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,200 Coinbase and Kraken and finance are the single largest mixers in 1036 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,880 the world. I mean, this is just like 1037 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,160 practically true at the moment and we can talk in. 1038 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,760 And the problem, the big problem is like, I think we really 1039 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:34,680 underestimate how useful like for example, like some of the so 1040 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,640 like KYC policy that Binance does are because especially in 1041 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,440 the age of generative AI, all of these things are just going to 1042 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,000 be toast. Like I think we really have to 1043 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,480 come up with a different model here anyway. 1044 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,240 But like generally speaking, the single largest mixes in the 1045 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:52,600 world and yes, most people use it like this. 1046 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:58,120 I did this earlier today. I think this is one option and 1047 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,280 I'm like something that the Nomada community could pursue is 1048 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,920 sort of, I mean, this is like what I would like to use it for, 1049 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:04,960 for honest. I'm like, I would like to like 1050 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,160 buy this NFT. I don't want to have to link all 1051 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,000 my stuff like activity across all these chains. 1052 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,880 I think the other thing is also around, I would like to 1053 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:19,360 participate in governments votes, but on other systems, but 1054 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,560 without leaking all my data. And so like with Armada, you can 1055 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,360 also do something called chilled actions, which just gives you 1056 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:30,520 the ability to sort of remain shield while also executing 1057 00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,320 something, for example, osmosis or participating governance 1058 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,520 vote. So I could just gives you this 1059 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,200 ability to not only for your trading, but also for like just 1060 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,800 you general other data to actually remain shielded at all 1061 00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,960 times. Yeah, I, I think honestly, this 1062 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:50,440 is sort of like the nicest thing for Armada at the moment. 1063 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,080 I, I think we really want to see like where the community ends. 1064 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,640 Like I'm very curious on like where the community ends up 1065 00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,920 taking it because I got to this extent. 1066 00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:01,360 Like the community is launching the thing. 1067 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,280 I have no idea that things happening on the forum. 1068 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,240 It may come up, come online at some point in the next couple of 1069 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,600 weeks from a forum post, it seems. 1070 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,720 So I'd really like to see where. So they're going to take it. 1071 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,080 The thing is, I think we really haven't tried this in practice a 1072 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:25,520 lot yet on how these systems can actually utilized. 1073 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,360 And yeah, I am very excited for it. 1074 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,080 What else do you think we should cover? 1075 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,720 I mean, we could talk about the collapse of the banking system. 1076 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,520 I find this quite curious. Let's do it. 1077 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:37,760 Let's do it. That sounds fun. 1078 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:44,320 So basic thesis here, which is, so every year we had more 1079 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,200 regulatory pressure on two banks, right. 1080 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,640 And so every year, the marginal cost of an extra customer of 1081 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,040 existing customers becomes higher. 1082 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,000 And at some point, and like these regulatory pressures 1083 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,600 generally never go away, right? Like the IT just keeps being 1084 00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,960 added. And so like my bowl case for 1085 00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:04,200 crypto is a sort of like banks will start off banking normal 1086 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,480 people very soon. Like if you if you do like 3 1087 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,560 transfers, about 15 KA year, your bank is go to ask 1088 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:15,440 questions, at least in Germany. And so like at this point. 1089 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,240 What if you do 3 transfers above 15K? 1090 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,120 So I mean, I have this very specific use case. 1091 01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,240 Someone tried to send me money from Germany to Switzerland. 1092 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,400 Apparently Switzerland has a high risk jurisdiction. 1093 01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,200 This cost an entire thing where there was an entire day 1094 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,400 involved, three day three people looking compliance because like 1095 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,560 it's an unusual amount. It's an unusual country. 1096 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,800 And so like my entire sort of my basic thesis is like these 1097 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:43,920 pressure points on banks keep going up and banks don't like 1098 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,440 them because it increases their cost of compliance, but it means 1099 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,880 that large parts of their customer base are just going to 1100 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,240 become unprofitable. And so these people have nowhere 1101 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,320 else to go. Where do they go while to the 1102 01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:56,640 sort of turn the financial system? 1103 01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,600 And so I think honestly, banking regulation to some extent is 1104 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,920 like the bold case for crypto because every new banking 1105 01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,160 regulation just drives more customers to use DC. 1106 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,400 No, I mean I think it's it's obviously the case already, 1107 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,200 right? Like within crypto, let's say, 1108 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,400 if you take the example of making investments in other 1109 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,840 projects, right, like you make an Angel investment somewhere 1110 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,520 or, you know, the course one, we invest in something, I mean, all 1111 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,480 of these payments are with stable points, right? 1112 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:30,200 And it's just like nobody would use, want to use a bank wire for 1113 01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,080 it because it's just like so inferior. 1114 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,960 And if you try to do it, then you have some person calling you 1115 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,400 up and they want to like, you know, get the documentation and 1116 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,360 it's a bunch of hassle and takes longer and it's more expensive. 1117 01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,280 And it's just so I, I think that is like very, very clear that 1118 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,560 there's a lot of, a lot of advantage here for crypto. 1119 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,680 And I, I think this will push a surprising amount of people into 1120 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,920 crypto very quickly actually. I mean, like in the West, I 1121 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,920 think we have less the pressure points, but especially if you 1122 01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:03,160 live like in like middling developed countries, these 1123 01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:05,160 pressure points are just going to keep increasing for you. 1124 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,200 The other thing is I think also like neo banks toast due to 1125 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,680 generative AII you got things like the first lot. 1126 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,760 Like I think self custody is going to become inevitable 1127 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:23,000 because at some point someone is going to generate 100,000 like 1128 01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:30,000 realistic looking generative AI videos to like recover Revolute 1129 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,360 account access and a bunch of accounts will be drained. 1130 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,320 And like I, I, I don't see anyone proposing realistic 1131 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,240 solutions outside of self custody where you must own your 1132 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,160 own keys that you aren't then trained to give to scammers. 1133 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,320 Because like my passport data is clearly going to be in some leak 1134 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,520 somewhere, like, and it's not going to be difficult to 1135 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,120 generate like realistic looking videos to like re KYC me with 1136 01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,320 banks or exchanges and definitely not in five years 1137 01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,160 from now. And the same is going to be true 1138 01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,440 for like 90% of the listeners of episode. 1139 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:05,880 I think, like it's an actual risk we should be thinking 1140 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,600 about. It is, I, I think very 1141 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,920 unappreciated. And I think these two things are 1142 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,400 the probably the single largest driver in terms of like, why? 1143 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,800 What is Kryptos use case right now? 1144 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,600 Cool. So time 9, I think you mentioned 1145 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:31,520 Namada is, you know, probably sometime soon and then imminent. 1146 01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,640 I think imminent last check the forum. 1147 01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:39,560 It seems that the genesis transaction like pre genesis 1148 01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:41,960 transactions. I think they were supposed to. 1149 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:44,480 They're going to close enough next week or something like this 1150 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:47,400 so. By the time this comes out, may 1151 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,200 already be live. No, no, no. 1152 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,640 And then like a couple of weeks, I think the values want to be a 1153 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,720 lot of testing. So probably shortly around the 1154 01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,240 time this goes out. Yeah. 1155 01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:02,320 And then we have a normal which is like sometime next year 1156 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,280 probably. No, this is first private 1157 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,120 definite coming this year. So we'll start the builders 1158 01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:13,200 program this year. So keep a lookout for that and 1159 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,480 then targeting public chest and starting early next year and 1160 01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,600 then mean it towards something middle of next year. 1161 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,240 Yeah, it's super exciting on the enoma front. 1162 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:28,160 It it's going to be, I mean, like it's the first time where 1163 01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,960 like we're trying to propose something radically new and it's 1164 01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,320 going to be cool and it's going to allow us to do new things 1165 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,000 that we couldn't do before. And like I remember like when 1166 01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,960 when Etherium started becoming a thing and I could do new things 1167 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,560 that I could do on Bitcoin and they became easier. 1168 01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:44,600 And I think we're going to see a similar moment. 1169 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,560 So I'm pretty bullish. I'm, I'm really excited for 1170 01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,400 that. I would love to, you know, try 1171 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:54,440 some new things and see, see some new, some new types of use 1172 01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,160 cases and capabilities enabled. So I'm super excited to see 1173 01:04:58,160 --> 01:04:59,720 that. Thanks so much, Adrian. 1174 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:00,320 Thank you very much.