My Name is Davis. Thank you, Julia.
And I'm here with identical honest.
And hello, from how you doing doing?
Well, thank you for having me here.
Great, well, thanks for joining us on such short notice.
So, this is a bit of a special epicenter episode.
Code not only because we're all here together at full mode
studio. Also, because we're doing a live
stream which is not something we usually do but also because
we're here in Berlin during def con which we'll talk about and
you know that Khanna has been on on a forced Hiatus for the last
couple of years. Obviously because of covid and
also we are here on the day, well, in the next hours, the
merge will happen and so it's a very special time to be here in
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Let's, let's maybe first talk a little bit about doc home which
is Still going on today, over a couple of couple of kilometers
from here. So, what's that pain?
And what's the, what's the significance of Def, con 20, 20,
20 Defcon, it's very much any Theory.
Mm Community Conference very much in the spirit of ECC and
Def con. We've actually had Defcon twice
before in 2018 and 2019 and then we were going to have it on in
2020, in was cancelled because of covid.
And so we moved To 2021 was canceled again because of covid.
And now, it's 20, 22. And finally, we're back.
We're in a new venue by this be. It's great, right?
Yeah, it's yeah. I like the venue.
I just renewed for next year is next year.
So basically we'll be there again next year Defcon won't
happen again 2023. Yeah.
So basically it's lots of talks about etherium infrastructure
and depth and it's very big heavy.
There's not a lot of Business Development which I personally
Really. Yeah.
And I think one of the interesting sort of developments
and, you know, which also is because of this, like, two year
break, is that the last epcon there was no nurses chain.
There was, no, not exactly. Even last def con, they would
not have been and no such thing because gnosis chain kind of it
basically noses and X Dy, merge to create gnosis chain in
November of last year. So, basically, yeah.
It's been, it's been a crazy year for us, but the really nice
thing, I said, I mean by little you used to be like this web
three Hub and we lost a little bit of that, you know, during
covid and you know, no in the direction of Lisbon which I'm
still talking about because I have kids in school.
Yeah, I'm not gonna pack up and leave.
Yeah, but yeah. So basically used to be like
this vibrant place and kind of it after covid is kind of slowly
coming back basically footnote our co-working space.
Here is almost fully booked Again so there's like thing in
October, there would be like one you know 12-person office
becoming available but basically in principle, it's fully booked.
Yeah and yeah. So basically this is you know,
def con has historically been part of Berlin blockchain week
and we also brought that back this year.
So basically there's a whole host of conferences in the next
in the next couple of days. It is helium.
Yeah. East Berlin is about to happen
and it's June Khan and ZK hat. And like a million side events.
There's like too many parties to go to.
There's one tonight at a swimming pool which I feel like
it's from the cow protocol. So really I ought to go but I
feel like I'm too old for this. Very special feeling we stopped
because here was the first time that I can publicly talk about
Donna. And so I have this very special
memory but I really love these. This feeling of small community.
It's like is is like a family at some point and I really love
this kind of competition which you feel so comfortable, talking
with friends, sharing ideas, sharing new technologies.
And these five is really amazing.
I totally that. I have the feeling that we lost
a little, these Berlin spirited during the pandemic, but I
really want to See, it's a little is barely again because
it was amazing when they were 3 D3 Summit.
That con it's really in, then it was per hour that led the last
time. And yeah, I really, really happy
to see in happening again and see that the next year is going
to also to happen. It's crazy.
I was always a big fan of that pain and coming to Berlin used
to be like a regular thing for me.
So I feel sometimes like I'm no more crypto people in Berlin
than I do in Paris for some reason.
But today, I was great and just like seeing everybody again and
all you like these familiar faces that I hadn't seen in
three years and yeah, I'm also like I'm almost generally just
excited about the no such a system.
I mean, even though I'm on a day-to-day more involved in
Cosmos, I think the ghost is chain.
Ecosystem is like super interesting.
Just got some great people, lots of people talking and working on
things like governance and dabs and so yeah, I think it's like a
really cool like Somewhere like lots of actual stuff is being
built. You know, talking to Patricio
from poet yesterday. And this was also a sentiment
that, you know, at the last app gone, you were talking about
those things like kind of perspective, things that were
going to happen and we're going to come into fruition and next
couple of years and now they are like people are actually
building businesses like using his chain and building actual
use cases and like actual things that people use.
So that's actually pretty cool. Yeah, I totally feel that and I
think basically we've been through in terms of
decentralization and culture, I think we've been through an
eight-year that means that it right?
So well, yeah, so busy, we've been kind of at a low point.
So busy, I think kind of, when people started building
businesses kind of resent realizing, you know, is easy in
a way, right? So basically kind of like you,
you the easiest way to Those things is in a centralized
decentralized, even even if it's on a blockchain and I think kind
of people at least in my bubble, they've kind of just started
kind of becoming weary of that and kind of trying to head back
into the re decentralized doubling down.
Yeah. Listening who's not familiar
with it was so it was it was building a company called dab
node which is on the face of it, a hardware company but really
it's a software company, it makes it really easy for you to
stay at home. So basically it's kind of geared
towards the you know, Ronnie 0 node, run your own validated
home kind of crowd and maybe you can tell us kind of how you've
seen the last couple of years years, in terms of
centralization and Centralization.
Yeah, good topics. Do anything.
Yeah, the thing is, well, in the, I'm not, we usually have a
Lemma. We, we tell people that we
didn't realize until it hurts and relax until it works.
So that should be the way to work, right?
We need to focus on the transition and then make the
things work really if you will completely centralized in the
dysfunction that need to be built.
So maybe you have no I'm not going to have a problem, never
but I think it's important to have these violins and it's
important to focus on the important part.
I have the feeling that we are launching losing the
decentralization at some point. For example, at the very
beginning of them non-dominant, the first proof of content in
2017, we were able to resolve DNS domains with IPS websites,
and people didn't use it at all. So we lost that and now seeing
all these things that happen in all these censorship Saints is,
when people realize that we are losing.
In our path in some way. So, I see a lot of business
Robin and trying to follow the different, the reverse path,
path, centralized, and then make a decentralized.
But that's not working. Because at the end, this implies
is not easy. It's a real Challenge.
And that is why you need to have that in your mind from the very
beginning. You need to focus on this
annotation. See how it can work and then if
this needed, try to centralize but we have the feeling that we
are. We are changing our mind.
I don't know why maybe he knew people in the community that
doesn't have this feeling of the centralization or don't, or
maybe they don't realize of the important of the centralization.
So, that is why I try to focus medication.
Also the importance of this interrogation, the benefits of
censorship system, that was that important of of privacy, and
that is why. Yeah, try to educate people on
that scent. Yeah, and I mean, just to kind
of spell it out, Only when you move to proof of stake and
basically, lots of people don't really want to take from home.
They just delegate. You end up with a lot of large
stickers and basically that's not really decentralized Network
in terms of resilience. So, basically, if it's just a
number of people, you kind of need to call to kind of shut it
down, or that's. Yeah, yeah, dance of prefer
steak is also a big issue obviously right now.
The top five sticker control the 63% of the network.
It's crazy. It's too much and understand
that we have anything, is that? This number has grown.
Its that mean, that we are not feeling the problem.
The thing is the, the problem is making even worse.
And and also from the point of view of the VPS or Cloud
providers for example, Hefner, presently, but crypto
application on their servers so that means we are going to lose
50% of the nodes of the network because of that.
Obviously, they people are going to move to another provider.
But at the moment that we are centralized in our
infrastructure and cloud provider, or in biggest Acres,
we are losing all the benefits that we can get from this
interaction. Nobody and yeah, without wanting
to kind of, I totally take your point.
I think for hats. There's only four shared
instances though. Basically if you have your own
server you can do what you want shorter and I haven't been super
I mean as far as I know they haven't been like very explicit
and clear about that. It's just been kind of like his
hand wavy Statements, right? Or have they come up with
something more clear sense and do we any say, I don't know.
No one that I started softening, but they make an understatement
on the direction, and it's risk. I mean, maybe he's not something
that can hurt us, but my point of view on I had something.
Is that it's great. I mean, like so we run
validators, I didn't wrap around.
Valladares on Hudson are just because I used head sooner and
I, you know, I liked it and it's quite cheap but when I realized
looking at the validator set in a lot of Cosmos, blockchains
Something like, you know, the high percentage like in the 50
to 60 percent of nodes on some change or running and Hudson are
like we immediately the said like we're moving away from
Hudson or not because they're kicking us out, but because we
want to we want to be on servers that other people are not on.
So we're moving to like you know French service providers thought
I actually think that the fact that had snare is kicking off if
it does. In fact start closing accounts
that it would probably be a decentralizing factor now the
Flip side of that is like everybody moves to AWS like
that's a good make it is even worse and Google Cloud.
Yeah, I mean for me, everything was a wake-up call to let people
know that we are still releasing the sense but yeah, I am also
running notes in, hasn't it on that note.
So, I mean, I am not against BP. Sics to try to balance the
situation between providers stickers.
I think it needs to be space for all of us.
Yeah. And I mean, seriously, what
we've In recently with they'll turn their tornado ofac
enforcement action. Yeah.
So this is so we recently had an I recently had an episode with a
Peter Peter from from climb Center.
Yeah, and on the entire tornado thing and that's where I learned
that Alex is not actually heard in connection with the ofac
thing. But apparently in the
Netherlands there's a negligent money laundering law which seems
crazy because I mean every time you get money Cut.
I mean if I sell you a chocolate bar and I shouldn't have to to
carry you, to kind of ascertain that you have obtained, the
funds you're using to pay for that chocolate bar, you know, in
a legitimate manner. So, yeah, so it seems like it
seems like it's very high. Yeah, I did.
Yeah, I'm not sure whether this will hold up, but they're handy.
They have 100 days to kind of charge him and they haven't yet.
Yeah, and my months but yeah. Obviously kind of had putting
the Addresses on the olfactory list that's been shocking.
Because I mean it's never really happened to infrastructure
before. I mean it's happened to
individual people are organizations, it's not happened
to like technology so and I think I think there's a good
chance that this will be revoked in due time, but I think what's
really threatening to us right now is over compliance so
basically just too many people who just don't care and who
don't want to Bear the burden of you know carrying the Risk of
maybe being shut down and like something just because they
didn't. So basically just out of an
abundance of caution that their general counsel say yeah.
You should just, you know, ban these these accounts kind of
like and then they do and I think kind of overcome playing
that way as an ecosystem. I as an ecosystem that is meant
to be billed on kind of permissionless innovation.
That's kind of like the core value.
That's appalling. And also in a way it's also way
A to kind of separate the good beans from the bad beans, right?
Kind of just see who overcomes eyes did it without having to
and the people who don't overcome life, those are the
people who actually committed to the values.
I think it was Karen, your general counsel.
I was speaking with this week, he was pushing for Clear
guidance, on minimum compliance, right?
So we would love To do that out of a done.
I mean, I've done that has been the most the most reliable of
other, you know, European lobbying formations and interest
groups. Yeah.
So I think basically having like some sort of Playbook, like,
what do I actually have to do and what do other people do?
Just because, you know, they don't care.
I think that would actually be super cool.
Yeah, I'm sorry, we had a couple things you want to hit on say so
you know, we've talked about Have come a little bit, veered
off into some other topics. I mean, I think the merge is
something that we should maybe touch on.
Although we had some we had some concerns about when this would
come out and whether it's a I think for those listening if
this comes out, if you're listening to this after the
merge please, keep in mind, this was recorded a few hours before
the merge. So yeah, maybe maybe from your
perspective, you know, because you run a company that helps
people run their own. Nose in their own validators.
What is this was significance of this to you?
And how do you see this, like affecting your business?
But you know, like long-term the ecosystem and maybe give us a
brief recap of what has happened so far because basically the the
merge we've been talking about this for six years, I had.
Yeah. So so basically it may be and I
think it's changed a lot during that time for him and you were
there for all of it. So Yeah, I mean all the things
are happening to be here today. The Roma posterior hatching so
many times that if it's even hard to think about all of the
senior had changed. For example, I remember when you
need to stake 1000 1500 is to be able to be able to later because
of the signature of the, of the validators.
You were not able to aggregate all of them because with the
neurology and them BLS happen and it changed everything we do.
Move to 32 Iggy's. And if I am right, I think
italic announced this in canto 2018 and that changed everything
from the proof of stake perfective.
Then when we decide to to integrate for sample
distribution, crowding into one shark so we can get the
education client inside the, the proof of stake chain, that was
another big chain because We do call or what we are taking all
and we continue in it right now. I think one of the most
challenging, most challenging things was the metallic post
related to the three-room product-centric that changing
all the rules, I think. Because at the moment where it
was, when roll up start to happening and and we realized
that the Neurology of student knowledge can help a lot to
increase their production per second and then We realize also
that the sharding with education is something so complex that it
could lead to having a less performant Network.
So, yeah, we did it create a new paradigm in which we can now
have that availability and charging and then the ropes can
grow on top of it. And then, it's now we need
preaches. So we have All the whole
ecosystem because of all these, all of these new specs, new
challenges. Yeah, Charlie.
And they feature of the of that ability is going to be another
real challenge, but I think that the feeling is that in Cancun,
for example, we have that feeling that the Merit is going
to happen, just write the corner and for you later this
happening. I think that this is something
that can change All the Rules of Evidence.
Missing. I have the feeling that we are
part of the history of plotting and being in Berlin, the moment
the the same place in which it's even born it's like magical,
right? And also allows so from the
development of you we have the feeling that the our community
members feel part of this. I mean is if you are a home
Stager along these like you are alone in your home, but the
feeling is that we have is a community that all together are
That direction. And it's really important to be
part of something. And I think that is really nice.
Also. Yeah.
But the thing have changed a lot.
I mean, for example, during the any series of of proof of stake,
we even don't know when they were all going to happen and we
don't have that yet. The, the ecosystem is growing,
in terms of Technology also, because now we are introducing,
Merkle trees up. There was a technology that one
year ago. Maybe we don't know how to spoil
it. So everything is changing but
but I also have the feeling that this is really strong because of
the maturity of the technology we have evolving during the
years. This is not just an idea of six
months that just deliver. So the other feeling is that we
are making the roots of something.
You. That's really, really, nice your
thoughts. Yeah, I agree.
It's been coming for so long and now it's coming and really
inopportune. I'm like it's 6 a.m. tomorrow
morning. We'll know.
That's going to be open all night.
There's going to be War rooms it.
Here of kind of people kind of tracking the merge and making
sure the coke Lions work and pick up and they're gonna be
like a screen like like winning. If there is a point here and
launch that. Yeah, we do that.
We should. Yeah, yeah, I mean, basically
it'll be a long night. So I think we have time to kind
of set up stuff and then at The merge.
And so there's this, this artist, there's a musician who
kind of synthesized, the history of aetherium into a musical
composition. So basically, I may be
paraphrasing this wrong because basically my musical knowledge
is zero, so basically forgive me if I do.
So I think he's kind of Taken each block and kind of somehow
calculated a musical note. From it.
So basically there's like the the number of blocks are the
number of musical notes. It takes about a half hour to
perform and where we performed at the merge because obviously
this is kind of when when like if you improve of work and and
it's performing it live, He's performing at life, he had were
not. Well, basically it's 6:00 6:30
a.m. with something be here because we're Yeah.
So basically it'll happen. It'll happen is by the very
unfortunate timing in this. You know, Central European Time
Zone like yeah should have been on the West Coast or something.
It's like 9:00 p.m. that's like nice and cozy.
Yeah but yeah. No it's all happening and I mean
the the office where a theorem launched its no longer, I mean,
basic no longer the, the he's deaf office.
They moved out a couple of years ago so basically like the the
golden offers and everything is gone but maybe we can kind of
have the much here. Just be nice.
Yeah. Doesn't.
Yeah, I think this is a good place to have it.
So many eggs in the wrong basket in terms of like not building
anything on ethereum, you know, it feels like really kind of
nice to be here while it's happening.
And yeah, I also am remembering all the complexity that we have
added to the network also, because I still remember at the
beginning, when you can run a node in just laptop and and then
the change started to grow. Now we have education
contentious, we hold out of pity.
She's in the ecosystem. Now, also, the Amigos is also a
new piece proposed about separation.
So for from the point of view of a user, it has increased
difficulty to be part of the network and that is why we run
down at mainly to try to remove a strap that complexity from the
users to to allow anyone to run an old.
I think it's important that because otherwise, we are only
going to have technical people en route.
Is and this is not the situation either.
So painting board as much as possible.
People, I think is a something very important for the future of
Syrian. And, and on the thing is, we are
making so changes making that didn't work with a lot of
things. No, renewal cryptography, is it
making it even harder? But it's worth obviously, yeah,
let's talk about the new cryptography.
So the, the new cool queer kid on the Block, obviously, and is
ZK based just as Bridges and you involved in them too because you
have your fingers in everything. Yeah.
Yeah for me which is always a problem in the ecosystem because
you need to have operators, you need to have trust on then it's
always the we get the weak piece of the network.
We have seen internal hacks in the last year's because of that
because they preach are not safe.
And mean I believe really I would like to do have these
translate solution happening and I have the feeling that with
this analogy technology, we can start to create this bridge
between different networks. For example, agree between Nazis
and the theorem, because since we are sharing the knowledge
sharing cryptography is even possible to create these riches.
So for example, the thing is the consensus client according to
the sign is able to have this state on Smart contract.
So being able to have the state of other blockchain allows you
to create proof of the state in other blockchain using the no
ticket to know you and that is game-changing, right?
Because usually you don't depend on no one's.
You only depend on someone polishing proofs and this allows
to create the trailers brakes that this.
Yeah. I mean maybe maybe to give give
some background on this. So I mean we've had trust is
bridges in the past but they were all optimistic, right?
So basically it kind It is they relied on people in monitoring
them and challenging the state. If the trans, if they think the
transition was, it was invalid. So basically, in a way, it was
trustless, but in a game theoretical kind of way, whereas
the new type of bridges, the ZK like client Bridges.
They are trust is in you know you know in Mathematica crypto
wouldn't cryptographic way and I mean that is it is a game
changer. Yeah totally I have a feeling I
mean Yeah, but going back to the centralization and the center
handle her said, I had to deal works.
It makes sense to have these breeches, because they are
needed, and but we are so that the current ones is is hard
mundane. It has a lot of legs.
And this is a game-changing for sure, because you remove all
this trash, all these insecurities, and you are just a
connection between networks and in the future.
See you in 20 to be able to support several.
Roll-Ups from several SDK, abms is even more important to create
this region that translates because we are going to have a
lot of connection between em. And that's a critical
infrastructure point. So seeing how this new
technology allows us to create these kind of things is really
amazing. I am really excited about all of
this, and really two units have been talking about these
trailers bleach with your D4. Get all 3 G's about how we can
can create a general proof of Bitcoin inside the terrarium,
but the data proved that work was crazy but I mean we have
been thinking about that from several and several years and
this country change everything or that of my feeling.
There's also going to be a panel.
I'm looking forward to very much this afternoon on you know,
zero-knowledge Bridges with Hardy and Alex from math, labs
and Uma. And originally vitalic was also
slated to be on the panel Unfortunately, he's sick.
So he called out, but I'm still very much looking forward to
that because I feel like this is the real new thing this year.
So I mean, basically everything else that's kind of around.
We've in principle. I had this for a long time.
So for instance, I know, I mean if you look at the house how
much of that proliferating and it warms, my heart, it's
fantastic. But basically, that was in the
grand scheme of things, they're not new right?
So basically we all knew this was going to comment some point.
I would be dowels and basically they would be large-scale
coordination and basically. Yeah, CK Bridges.
Super cool. So bullish, hmm.
I mean, coming coming from the world from the cosmos side and
where we have IBC, which is essentially a protocol to send
messages between chains and obviously is made possible
because every Every Chain uses the same consensus algorithm.
And so chains are able to validate the consensus of other
chains and so therefore like there's this trust minimize
aspect there. I think the thing that that I'm
really Hoping for is to have some sort of like shared
standards across like these different ecosystems.
So I understand that like from the point of view of a theory
and it's difficult to and evm chains is difficult to implement
IBC type consensus between between all the different robots
because they might have different assumptions about
finality and things like that. But yeah I'm like really really
quite hopeful that protocols like things like composable
finance and And, you know, these cross-domain layers that allow
liquidity to flow between ecosystems but also allowing
instructions. So flow with Yuka systems is
going to be really, really important next.
Couple years and ZK Bridges, like part of the types of
solutions that can kind of flow into these more broad
interoperability networks. Totally the thing is or the
feeling that half is technology. Is evolving a lot since then.
We thought that were impossible, one year ago.
Now, our reality, the capm be able to have recruited stocks
and be able to generate the producer state of of 3D on.
I mean, we are just discovering this technology and imagine that
in the future, you can use eternal truth about, they the
state of two different networks. Yes, use internally technology
to connect them, and in a shaker, Manner and thing is
there is a lot of projects working on deterioration
Technologies. T-Rex Park median.
Earth people are interested in this Trilogy because it's a game
changing technology is not just because of the beaches, you can
thing farther to can think about privacy.
You can think about identity be able to pass a cavity with
certain knowledge proof. This kind of things can change,
everything can change the world. As we know all that is my
feeling I am totally Gleason, TK technology and I think maybe we
don't realize yet. How about all the potentials do
you that this can have not just for Tyrion, just for users.
So, really well, is will listen in that?
Is it correct to assume that with, with these?
I was talking to someone last week who is just building like a
ZK layer for interoperability and you're looking at it from
the users perspective, what that would allow is essentially like,
you know, you could go and open sea and Pay with any any
currency like you pay with DOT, or Adam or whatever.
And like, the user wouldn't know the difference because the Z KV
M would give Zeke a bridge would be making those transactions,
sort of in the background and like, doing all the swaps and
everything. In order for like, Open Sea to
finally receive like ether, whatever like that it needs, is
that like the kind of the goal in the user experience from this
pain inside? Yeah, I think maybe I'm wrong
but I have the feeling that right now.
We are not thinking too much in users because if you start to do
things, Now, we have stability, we have no 2:16, you have for
lunch. We have a lot of chains with
different others in different networks.
For the usually that is crazy to understand what's happening.
We saw in the past, people sending funds to an address in
another Network and I mean, we need to fix that for sure.
I'll usually the should be another thing to start to work
hard. Because I've got the feeling
that every day, since we are having adding more than ology we
are adding Richard. We are Never.
At work, we are making even harder for users and and try to
attract that complexity also from the user perspective and
usage of the network is critical important more.
The same critical that this technology is that usual
condition. Otherwise makes no sense.
That have the technology. I 100% agree.
So I was, I moderated a panel last night about how to actually
make Blockchain improve the life of the many.
And basically I think I think the number one takeaway was, we
have to ship this to the normies?
We have basically, basically it's like, if we, if we're
building technology for the same 1 million people worldwide, this
is not Connor. This is not gonna cut it, it's
not gonna cut it. We kind of, we need to make it
easy to use. And basically, it starts with
the onboarding experience, right?
I mean, you open a wallet and says yeah, these are The 12
words never share them with anyone don't lose them or you
will actually lose access to all of you before you've even done a
single thing. Like what the fuck is this?
I mean, it's been like, it's been 10 years.
Why do we still have this? Like, yeah, I mean, we need to
count of traction. We kind of, we need to abstract
everything away from the user. And I mean, if you look at the
Internet, it's a mess. You know, in the back end, it's
a complete mess. It's America that the internet
actually usually works. And, and we don't ask anyone to
understand TCP IP. It's like no one knows how it
works. It just wax and this is kind of
this where we need to get. Yeah, that's why we can if we
need to make it, you know, no ship it to the normies.
This is like, we don't know if you remember but at the last
epcon I think I was moderating the panel you were on the panel,
but we did a panel together about this very topic about user
experience. And it was, I think, I say, I
don't remember, but I think, I think the yeah, we've been
talking about this for years. And I mean, it's getting a
little bit. It better be.
The thing I used to say, was, you know, we need, we need to
look at the metric of like monthly active, non crypto nerds
joining, right? And I think from the, from the
wallet side, like their husbands and advancements.
I'm a big fan of Zengo like what they're doing with threshold
signature and I think cryptography is making it a lot
easier for users to onboard. And of course there's not like
full custody but it is better than like it's much better than
like, being on an exchange and then on the other side, Much
better than having like, worry about your seat phrase.
So I cryptography is making it easier for people, to, for
people to build, you know, products that make it easier for
people to end up using the, you know, the final like crypto and
in general. And then, you know, I think like
looking at ZK, Bridges, and ZK, V Ms, and how they're going to
allow a lot of this up. They're going to allow like this
vs, abstracted away, I think. Yeah.
I think like, in the end of cryptography is, is actually a
catalyst for a lot of great user experiences.
It properly and, you know, with the right with the right sort of
like interfaces, did I tell you that on nose chain that's going
to be basically, there's currently a pilot with 2,000
credit cards, they had their real Visa credit cards.
They have credit card numbers. They're backed with X Dy on
noses chain and and you can pay base you hold them yourself.
So basically, the credit card is also a A key.
So it's also how do I want it? And you hold them yourself.
No one has custody. You know you know you know those
crypto back credit cards, usually the person who issues
them, they always have custody but basically with this credit
card you have custody and and you tap it on the Visa terminal
and there's some there's a payment provider in between what
kind of takes your ex, I Transit, you know, who converts
into u.s. dollars or Euros or whatever and pays and entered
into the Visa payment Network. This is I mean basically this is
this is cool enough. But if the if the person you're
paying also is has one of those accounts or gnosis chain, you
would actually bypass the Visa system.
So you basically, you would tap your credit card, which is also
your Hardware wallet and it would automatically just send it
from one account to the other. And this is the kind of user
experience that we need. This is what we need.
It's like, augmentative user experience.
Yeah, it's kind of, like, you don't need to know.
How it works. So, for instance, I don't know.
So, for instance, PPS, did you know, it's sat-nav on your
phone? You use it all the time.
Do you know how special relativity, kind of impacts the
way that kind of, that the satellites kind of determine
where you are. No, you're freaking don't.
It's like, and it's just wax and this is kind of how I see.
Trust is Bridges. So basically you shouldn't have
to know about the structures Bridges.
They should just be that basically should just work and
that should be the general user experience.
Totally, totally. I don't know if you remember.
In Black, I don't know, probably made the video a parody of the
current situation. How is the process to more
people is called a lemon going? I'd really recommend that
because it's a parody of all the process that you need to pass
to. We link to it in the show notes.
Remember this? It wasn't black and he's like
the full process that you need to follow to be able to use,
right? And it was, it was so fun, but
the, the sad part is that we are in the same place.
We have not improved anything of that, or that is a feeling that
we are, stealing asking users for Holiday turkeys, they lose
them people don't realize that. If you tell this worth to
someone, he can install you, even we have seen.
We have so in our channels people telling other ones that
they are damaged support and they stole money from them.
So people are easy yet. It's not yet, Authority is
education. Also, because I mean, I think in
general people that are outside, these are not used to control
keys to be responsible of that, and we need to relocate.
And it's not. There's also usually happens.
This happened to me like this still happens to me.
Where, for instance, I in my power app, as for a DNS name, I
put my urgent. He had his name, but Arjun
doesn't support gnosis Jay and I really think about it was like,
here there's my you guys name. Like there were the one that I
use on my phone. So, and then I was talking to
Patricia. As well, bring those back is
going to be hard. Yeah remember at the very
beginning, a used Nazis multi sick and it was very good at the
moment, really secure and then no she says happened.
And now the utility of a multi multi signature wallet is has
improved a lot. Also, the gas.
So basically when we first created the multisig, like basic
gas was not a thing. Basically, it was super cheap.
Anyway, so basically the you didn't pay Pay any attention to
it and I know that basically just probably about a year ago
or something. Something, I emptied, our last
96 and then basically, it was so freaking expensive.
I paid. Like I paid just to get the
funds out. I paid like two thousand dollars
in gas or something just to get the funds out.
We know to Modern safe for takeoff to move the funds from
the old one to the. New one was so expensive.
But now, for example, you have no, she's safe.
In different networks with the same address, so do not do
something. Yeah, so generally the
Assumption should be and this is something that basically that is
a big noses, save usability problem.
They're busy on E, 08, you can kind of force that you can get
the same address on different networks and with a safe Yukon.
So, basically there's some networks, you can brute force
it, but even then it's not easy. And there's some networks where
basically, if you send it to the same address it's just gone.
And we've actually had this and they Really large amount of
funds, like, seriously like stupid amounts of funds.
Like, tens of millions were sent to the wrong Network because the
person wasn't paying attention and didn't do a test
transactions, like, I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's on
them for not doing a test transaction, but it's also on us
a little bit because, you know, shouldn't be this easy to make a
mistake. It's like, that's who I really
didn is. If you have different addresses
in different networks, it's crazy.
Sometimes to use it. Also, the sample we only have
ens in one network unless you use centralized providers to
translate it. And that's also another problem
of disability because you cannot tell someone you in his name, in
one network, it's not going to be the same another one or is,
who knows? Oh, you have to decide whether
registry is where you can update it.
And so on, we're having an e, NS Bridge.
Build, you know, sustain these with a good way to be nice.
But yeah, it's I mean, it's all of it.
I think there are so many Usability questions.
But yeah, but I think kind of onboarding people and kind of
seeing where they go wrong and then fixing that this is what we
need to do. Yeah.
Going back to the point. We need to improve the stability
to get more people involved, Eason to increase the
concentration at the end, this is all about the Central
Station. This is also that something that
Poe app does really. Well, I mean, they've minted 5
million, perhaps. I mean, that's adoption that's
like, you know, it's not quite like, I mean, it's not like
Google, but, I mean it. It's not five billion people but
five million people in times of your you know, for web three
project that is massive. Yeah, looking through looking at
the list easy looking at the list of people powerful people
create it it's not all web stuff.
It's like, hey Jim's birthday or whatever.
You know, like there's the people using Pro out that that
are not probably not like native crypto people or like people who
come to conferences like this and you can make it on your.
So I was, I mean, I was at dinner last night and we made it
A poem for the people, you know, just sitting there like between
between main course and dessert. We made a poem and we
distributed it for to the people out there, you know?
And like 50 people redeemed it. And so basically, no.
It's like all the 50 people. We wear that dinner and have a
poet from that dinner and basically, what, on on the phone
like, it was. Yeah, it was super easy to make
yeah. Yeah, they have these, they were
selling these nice, nice poet cards here.
And I've seen you in. So you can put your pole up in
here. And you guys want to go out?
Yeah. I want to live stream pot
distribution here. This is cool.
Anyway. Yeah.
So this is a cool thing to like being able to have your thing
inside. Yeah, you know, it'll take me to
that, we are minting a poet. Yeah.
Nice 3.0 in Berlin and September 20 22.
Hmm. Here you go.
Yeah. And and what's nice about this
too is cat You how many people I met you before me?
Yeah. But you can also put like your
telegram handle in the description so you can kind of
it's a good way to share your Telegram and loosen her bucks
but I'm so lucky. I met you.
Yes it is. First pull up to but he has to
know. Yeah.
His to now but it was his first one and he met Patricio.
Yeah. It's like the golden tube.
Yeah. It's kind of it's a way of kind
of displaying and Writing your own life experience.
I think this is also something that would benefit from a layer
of ZK stuff on top, right? So basically, I mean, Maybe not,
maybe I don't want everyone to see the fictitious example
because I'm, you know, I'm a boring mom.
But say I'll say I check into like Kid Carter something like
maybe, I don't want everyone to see that but you know just, you
know, the kid cut crowd. So it's kind of like yeah.
I mean it's like yeah yeah. I mean, I think that, that sort
of thing. We'll come and it I mean for for
things like poems but also for things just like your General
Financial travel, a pair of privacy and transparency.
What's what do you guys? Expect is going to happen
tonight. Hmm, I do fun.
Even if it's going to happen. Yeah, you know I mean so
basically they've tested it so many times.
Yeah, the video. Yeah and I think it's got It's
going to be okay? I mean there's just so many
different you know. Nations of clients, I mean
because now you have two clients right to based you have like the
consensus layer and execution layer and in principle, they
should work in any combination. And I think basically just just
for context of this, there's two clients was a consensus and
execution. And for each of those, there's
like three or four clients. Exactly.
Yeah. The combinations.
Are like 20 combinations? Yeah.
And so basically, I think the
worst that will happen. Happen.
Is that one of these combinations with Affair?
I think I mean what would you think it's not going to?
I don't think so. Well I mean who knows?
Maybe maybe tomorrow I can answer that question but I have
the feeling that this has been testing several times in
different networks so I mean I have a good buy on that
obviously so in this case is gonna happen, this whole what
happened but even the test run. So basically like they were
always some more things that kind of didn't go exactly
according to plan. So basically I would be Chrissy.
I think busy all in all it's going to be fine.
It'll be completely fine but basically yeah.
Is it going to be without hiccups evil?
Yeah, I mean obviously I remember during the Genesis for
example, I remember that I think was pretty him.
We're not able to propose lock, something like that.
They release a fixing in a couple of hours, we publish it
and everything started to work perfectly.
They never work. But was this kind of big fix
that you need to do the the Nida?
Yeah so I thought I think in You time all combinations work, I
just think that basically maybe not at, you know, unblock one.
So it's yeah. Maybe suddenly you realize that
my clients not working but he's doesn't mean that it doesn't
really work, it means nothing bad for the network.
But basically, this is kind of the level of Hiccup that I would
expect. I wouldn't expect like for you
hear him to go down. Yeah.
So, but yeah, I mean, it's a real challenge may be the only
people are realizing how hard is it.
And the thing is, is so many pieces is so many Denali so many
clients. So many implementations
standards mean. It has been that a lot but it's
a lot of work but I have a feeling, obviously, I totally
dropped some development that have been done.
So I mean, from my point of view, even I mean we are in the
middle from the point of view of the are not because because we
are waiting, if something happens, so we are nervous
because of that. But indeed, the the Feeling is
that everything is going to be well, maybe some fix it but the
normal things. Yeah, I agree.
So, what's next for what's next week?
No sustained ecosystem and except for this amazing credit
card thing. It's cool, right?
This is my little house. So, how does that work?
Where how does the credit card? Also turn, how is the credit
card, also, a harder wallet and it's from a company named konjam
and basically, it's like, it's like a key in a Critic.
I mean, basically, what they've been around.
Is that has made them for a while and like, you know, card
shaped cookies as far as, you know, the degrade, the key on
the chip and use the protocol. And it seems that there is a
protocol has an empty payload. So they take benefit of that,
they put the signature on that pillow.
So when you send to the cellar, if you are able to protect the
Creator, one, you prefer to keep the one, but why should you use
the regular Visa? But I'm not surprised, I'm not
an expert on that. Yes, yes, yeah.
I don't know anything about the research protocol, but that's me
neither. Yeah, I learned a lot about
payment providers in the last half year, since we've kind of
been working on this and the payment SEC.
It's a mess. It's like a complete mess.
There's like 20 companies you go through on a regular basis for
whatever reason, and then basically.
Yeah. So basically, the, the way that
it's actually handed is basically the point of sale
software So basically there's companies will kind of hand in
the point-of-sale bomb and Company.
We're working with they have a million point of sale terminals
in Europe. So basically when you tap your
credit card, I don't know your bakery or something, they may
run this software and this can be updated remotely.
So basically that's kind of their part of the payment stack
and this is who we integrate, okay?
But that they're building software that's like
standardized across with like other payments software's term.
Final. Yeah.
It's like ingenico or any of these other ones like they all
run by the same standards. I assume they would have like
the same standards but obviously I don't, I don't know.
It's like it's like to me. It's all, you know, like payment
back end. Yeah, I think the the payments
say even though it's a mess it's probably decently standards.
Like, if you go to a place like Indonesia, they always have like
six terminals. Yeah.
And I think nothing works. But yeah.
So coming back to Moses. This is chain ecosystem.
What's really exciting? And like, what are you most
excited about coming. I'm excited about many things.
So, basically, one of the things I'm excited about is make a v, 3
is coming to gnosis chain very shortly.
We still owe them. Some back-end support.
It's like, yeah, but it's happening.
I mean, it's a general-purpose change.
So we see all the defy Primitives.
And so, what are their very much?
Not a T5 First Chain. So basically, it's very much
like a, like a A human Centric chain.
So basically The Sacketts is on no sustained you bi product.
It's your like you bi project like you know decentralized web
of trust based you bi project I think fundamentally Ubi is
something that we all need in the next couple of years.
If you want to society, to kind of keep existing in a nice
fashion without, you know, like, escalating inequality and so
kind of baking it into the protocol.
Not big didn't but it's kind of one of the core pillars of the
things that are on those chains are currently there's 200,000
accounts and then yeah Power Up is are not on gnosis chain.
That obviously also pertains to individual people or so BC.
Its kind of your individual curated experiences and lots of
doubts. Our new stainless like $1500 and
out tooling and out. What to do drawing lots of
doubting it's kind of one of the things we kind of made sure to
build to basically make it as as nice as Place as possible for
the house because maybe you have dialed you have people kind of
that kind of ties, you know? Well into each other, you can
have things like, you know, the things we've talked about
forever. Like joined stakeholder ship in
Ventures and so on you can you can distribute funds from now is
to People by kind of having that group currencies with their with
their web of trust issued suppers.
And so on the really there's really good ways to integrate
all of These things, I am so busy of currently.
We are obviously, I mean, obviously, you guys know.
So basically we merge with XII and XIII was very much proof of
us, are you? So there's like twenty one, you
know, authorities that kind of validate the network and we have
launched the proof of stake be contain exactly the same as the,
the theorem we can chain and that we can chain now has over
100,000 validates this. So basically, we will also have
the much just like a theorem just it's It's a mess because
it's different consensus and b11.
It's like difference between 30 and nurses that mix little
harder to make it make it harder, but we will get there.
Yeah, and then in the next week's, so basically, then it
will be the most decentralized Network after etherium.
So basically, if your mom has 400,000, validators knows his
chain has 100,000. Then where we think there's
steak at home movement, it's important.
I mean, this is also why we've partnered With it'll just
because it's I mean 24 true for for claiming credible neutrality
and permission is innovation he knew need to have a network that
belongs to everyone and something that belongs to
everyone belongs to no one. It's like the credible
neutrality of the base layer. I think this is kind of kind of
a virtue that we have lost over the last couple of years when
people are kind of scrambled to just build stuff and I think
this is something that we need to reclaim.
I'm like the cypherpunk 2022 movement.
Yeah. And I mean, basically this Vibes
really well with, you know, like the tornado issues, we think
privacy is a human, right? So basically, we think kind of
if you look at how much privacy has been taken from us over the
last 30 or 40 years and it's it's only getting worse.
So basically all your audio payment data it's like banks are
allowing people access to like the synthesize data of, you
know, you did you spending and that's Atrocious and I don't
think that should be happening. So, basically, you should be
able to kind of, you know, opt out of the opt-out and
basically, and I mean cash, which is kind of the untrackable
form of money. Currently, this is being phased
out. No, that's, that's many places
you can pay with cash anymore. Yeah, baby somehow it's been
happening slowly, you know, you know, the story about Frog, who
kind of sits in a pot of water and you know, you apparently it
turns out, it's bullshit. It's not true.
But I think it's a good, it's a good simile.
So, basically, there's this frog, it sits in a pot of water,
and they see if the water boils obviously, you know, you put it
in and it jumps out, but if you put it in the water and it's
like nice, nice and cozy room, temperature, and then you slowly
increase the temperature, the frogs it's Phillips it and it's
it's until it until it's dead. And this is kind of, this is,
this is how I it turns out it's bullshit.
Apparently, the frogs, I mean, this is something that green
piece of her. Made out to kind of don't rental
home. Yeah, it's a green peas.
Made this up for like an advert against climate change in the
nineties. So we see this people.
Yeah, so yeah. So, but apparently, it's not
true, but for us, it's true. So basically, for us busy, we
are the frogs. We are the frogs and basic
privacy has been stripped from us like, one bit at a time.
So, basically, like it. I mean, used to be funny, right?
Basically, the egg used to say, don't say this on the phone.
And otherwise, you know, people will be listening.
We now know if you know everything was being monitored
and somehow somehow Ed Snowden is still the bad guy who was you
know in Exile and in in in Russia and we're making it like
this is no big deal it's like this is a freaking big deal.
It's like your privacy is yours and yes I mean tornado cash was
used by some bad guys but it's a tool.
It's a tool. We should all be using it.
Hmm and basically in They may be integrating it so deeply into
the protocol that everyone uses it.
This will kind of remove the problem of kind of helping the
terrorists because basically terrorists will be like point
one of a percent or something. They won't be there to 50%
whatever. So yeah.
But I mean in the okay, I mean, I don't know the actual numbers
of turn into cash and how many criminals were actually using
it. But this idea that crypto has
been used by criminals and and terrorists and is primarily used
by criminals and terrorists is like a total if it's a false
idea and it's a debunked idea and it isn't it did actually see
quite so yeah, basically if you looked at the numbers, so basic
was greatly exact exaggerated in the media and I think in
contestant at 80% and basically there was there was a chain
analysis report that said like 30% or something.
So I probably trust that analysis report but basically
it's Busy. If it's like, if it's like 99%
bad guys and vitalik mine. We I mean, we kind of, we have
to ask ourselves. Are we the baddies, anything?
No, we're not the baddies. So I think we just build
technology where, you know, there's a very obvious first
adopter because their, you know, their need for obfuscation is
larger but, you know, there's a very legitimate reason for our
skating and I have used to Nato cash in the in the past big
city. It's like, I mean it's I've used
it mostly for the use case that I wanted a fresh address and I
wanted to fund it with gas money.
This is kind of this is and I think this is what most people
but you stood for totally, if you want to send money to a
friend without revealing, what what what how much you have you
need to use this kind of tool in otherwise.
It's easy to track so at the end or an exchange I mean yeah I'm
like yeah I know it's centralized layoffs.
Yeah yeah, yeah. And I have done this.
I've used crack in that way. Kind of, let's pick me do it.
I did. Yeah I think they've removed
that. Use case largely because
basically now you only have one Pain address.
You used to be able to generate as many pay in addresses as you
wanted. And now they no longer have
that. So basically that's kind of like
one. But yeah, in principle I think
privacy tooling we need this the skeleton technology here.
Everything is public. Everything should not be public
sex. Like everything should be
trusted. Yes.
Should everything be public? Absolutely not.
So So, don't worry. And for me, the problem is not
the technology that problem obviously is is a people for
somebody, my in that other is use a mobile phone to Pune to
put a bomb. Should we buy mobile phones?
Because of that makes no sense, right?
So at the end the problem is not the technology is how we use it
so it security theater it's kind of like I mean I'm II probably
end up on a no-fly list for saying this but it's like the
TSA right? So basically it's like I could
think of so many ways of kind of Smuggling like Contraband and
you know, it dangerous things on board, you know, bypassing the
TSA because you know what they're looking for bombs in
shoes. I mean like yeah and I mean if
you look at how much time it costs us and how unpleasant it
makes the experience of. Yeah, I mean but it gives people
the illusion of security and it gives control to the state and
somehow this is security, you know that big Clever on the on
the escape hatch in the plane. Yeah.
What one way to and way to take over a plane?
I guess pull that big lever. It's right there in front of
everyone. I have one more point I wouldn't
and it's kind of its admittedly, you know, seeing what we've
talked about know in the past, you know, our so it's on the
lighter side. But I want to, I want to start a
movement for like more age-appropriate swag.
So I I've been aged out of the swag.
So basically I pass all of these boots and you know, like it's
like neon colored hats that glow in the dark that busy you would
wear to a rave like you know just bring back the regular
t-shirts. The tote bags.
Yeah we want these kinds of this kind of Swag.
He wants me one, that's Wack Pack.
You're probably looking for like some like, Mommy Swag.
Like must look like like like dap node pacifier.
Or kid bottle you will after making the gnosis gnosis
employees and friends. So, actually, it who have kids
we send them a, a onesie with an hour, with a pacifier, you know,
in the beginning? Yeah.
And everyone loves it. Yeah.
You know, I don't want that. But basically, I don't want a
fanny pack either. I mean, it's kind of like, I
think I know that the quick is Wortham.
I know this. I see it.
The time makes me feel very old but to me a fanny pack is
something that, you know, my grandma said you needed to take
on holiday so you weren't robbed, you know, on the
dangerous, Italian streets or something.
Now it's going to be, I think 10 years, 10 years next year that
I've been in crypto and I definitely feel like a lot of
times I'm the oldest person in the room and buggy, right?
Well I mean I don't think of it that way.
It's like, you know, there's those people who were like
younger than I was was when I came into crypto who are just
getting into crypto. And yeah, there is a, there is a
generational Gap. I think it also that shoulder
like you know, the people who listen to epicenter like nobody
under 30 is listening to epicenter.
Yeah, that's true. If you are listening to this,
let us know on Twitter tweeting. Like my dad makes me listen to
this. Thank you.
Thank you both for welcome for taking part in this.
And yeah, thanks for listening. Thanks for being part of this
live stream and we'll see you again next week.
Thank you for joining us on this week's episode.
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