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Welcome to epicenter. 
This is episode 4. 73 is the 

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show that talks about the 
Technologies projects and people

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driving decentralization and the
blockchain revolution. 

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I'm suggesting with Joe. 
I'm here with my co-host. 

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Brian Crane, and Felix louche. 
How's it going guy? 

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Very good. 
Pretty good, A little tired. 

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But looking forward to this, I 
think we're all a bit tired. 

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We all have a little eyes. 
I can see it. 

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It is early though but we are 
today. 

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Going to discuss you know, this 
is kind of our year-end wrap up 

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episode. 
It's coming towards the end of 

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the year and well I guess it's 
safe to say lots of happened 

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this year. 
And we're going to go over all 

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of that and hopefully make some 
sense of it. 

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And hopefully make some sense of
what's coming in the future that

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is, if there is a future to be 
had, but before we That I'd like

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to first talk about our sponsor 
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tally dot cash to check it out. 
I think for the Lincoln told me 

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that tally is a type of dog that
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clever branding when you think 
about it. 

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Yeah, head over to All That 
Guys. 

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Check it out. 
So, guys, there's another really

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great product that I've been 
using over the last couple of 

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weeks, and it's like this really
great Resume Builder and it's 

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going to come in handy. 
Handy when we're all looking for

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new jobs in January. 
I wonder if you are also like, 

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you know, sprucing up your 
resume for a, you know, for when

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you're out of work, in a couple 
of months, Well, actually, I've 

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been trying to open a bank 
account and then they were like,

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be quiet, a resume. 
So I actually did that. 

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What kind of kyc is going on 
these days? 

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Seriously. 
Oh my God. 

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That's that's pretty good. 
That's pretty good. 

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Wow. 
Well so you know, we came here 

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to talk about like look back on 
the last year and you make some 

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sense of what's going on now and
what the sentiment is and how 

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that might affect the future for
the industry. 

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And so, yeah, I think I'm not 
really sure where to start. 

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I mean, like, lots of great 
things happen. 

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This year, you know, like the 
merge happened which, which was 

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huge. 
I feel like it was eclipsed by a

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whole bunch of other stuff but 
at least it is like the 

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ecosystem. 
Not that I roll in. 

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But then, of course, there was 
like the Luna collapse which 

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Huge blow to the ecosystem and 
like I think just like General 

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confidence in the space 
affected, lots of teams also 

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like tangibly. 
And then, you know, we thought 

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we were kind of out of the woods
and then well, this happens like

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the FTX fraud debacle whatever 
you want to call it. 

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And now like Luna is just, you 
know, pales in comparison. 

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I feel like, I feel like Luna 
was like a minor events. 

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Compared to what? 
What this will. 

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This will provoke in terms of 
potential backlash on the 

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ecosystem and just like 
regulation and just overall, 

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trust being degraded in the 
technology and also just like 

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the space generally. 
Do you guys sort of agree with 

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with that thesis? 
Yeah. 

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I I'm not sure like one of the 
things that's like so I've had a

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Financial Times subscription for
the last maybe three years or 

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something, I don't know. 
And I Tend to sort of check out 

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the crypto articles a little bit
in there and especially the 

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comment section and it was 
always pretty skeptical. 

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I would say this is a time maybe
last year where there was a 

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little bit more balanced, you 
know, there was like some people

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who are like, yeah, I know it's 
actually some interesting stuff 

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happening and there was a little
bit of that but then I feel like

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this year, you know, earlier 
this year it just changed her. 

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I mean one is the articles are 
Mostly - but the comment section

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is basically just this is a 
complete scam like this is all a

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gigantic scam. 
It has to like died. 

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There was an interesting 
article, I read like some months

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ago where I mean, maybe like a 
month ago, something like that. 

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But it was basically like, hey, 
really should stop trying to 

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regulate this crypto thing 
because this crypto thing is 

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just a scam and I like 
regulating it. 

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You're giving it to some sort of
legitimacy that it doesn't 

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deserve, but as we've seen now 
with FTX collapse and stuff like

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that, it's kind of isolated. 
It doesn't sort of effect, you 

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know, the real economy and do 
the real bank. 

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So like, let's just, you know, 
segregate it. 

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Say that, like, none of the 
financial institutions are 

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allowed to touch this sort of 
dumpster fire and then it will 

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just sort of diatone death there
and that's sort of, they were 

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the way to go and you know, all 
of Of the comments were like, 

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that makes so much sense. 
Finally someone is saying, 

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finally, someone is like saying 
it out loud and like so and I 

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saw this threat from Zuzu which 
is another bizarre thing. 

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No, because the guy is basically
also seems like a bit of a 

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scammer know with his three 
hours Capital where they were, 

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you know, trying to borrow money
like when they were already in 

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solvent and like, I guess it 
looks like lying about their 

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assets by making stuff up. 
And so it was interesting, you 

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know, how and how they're like 
briefly disappeared and then, 

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you know, come back like a month
later and two months later like 

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giving sharing wisdom about the 
other scammers and stuff like 

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that, but I think I think I read
somewhere he's trying to raise 

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another fun. 
I heard that this was read that 

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somewhere to. 
Yeah, I don't know if that's 

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true but one of the things he 
did say that I actually I felt 

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was quite accurate, which is 
basically that Anunnaki. 

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I feel see very much reflected 
in this kind of financial times 

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you know, type commentary that I
think for a lot of people like 

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outside of crypto and you know, 
let's say in the traditional 

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Financial system or it 
descriptive thing, it's just 

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like one huge scam. 
Like it's all and so then if SF 

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TX and like s You know, Sam 
brankwyn free dance of doesn't 

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look any worse than any of the 
rest, right? 

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Anything, anything maybe 
slightly better because he was 

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at least, like, giving some 
money away to its even if it 

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wasn't his money to some kind of
causes. 

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So I feel that Ellison explains 
a little bit. 

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Maybe that, you know, two 
people, the Crypt of being 

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there's like big difference, 
right? 

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There's like a lot of great 
things and then they're like 

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someone like SPF was like 
complete fraud and roll, like, 

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find it be Azar that they sort 
of that he doesn't get treated 

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like this complete fraud in the 
mainstream media but I think if 

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you look at it kind of through 
that lens kind of makes sense. 

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Yeah, I don't know what that all
means. 

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I would say in the times, you 
know, that I've been in crypto 

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is just now, I guess, nine and a
half years or something like 

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that. 
This is the most negative. 

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I think that the opinions that I
feel like you see about crypto 

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in The Wider media and world I 
feel like the most - that 

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they've ever been. 
Yeah. 

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I was just going to say I was 
reading a treat this morning 

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it's because they're there was 
this I think this this confusion

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or people people were somewhat 
surprised that the people in the

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audience when so as SPF that 
this interview At this New York 

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Times event and people were 
applauding him. 

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And but what what this what this
tweet was was like a screenshot 

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of some article, but we're 
basically that was claiming that

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the people were applauding him 
for for essentially like having 

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destroyed crypto. 
It was, you know, they were 

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applauding him to congratulate 
him or you know, to like uphold 

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them as like some sort of a good
person but it was in fact 

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because You know, because like 
he was, he was act like sort of 

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destroying this dumpster fire. 
Like finally destroyed this 

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dumpster fire and it's like 
okay. 

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Yeah, like the kind of makes 
sense. 

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I wish I could find the Tweet 
but I can't find any more anyway

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but yeah I mean yeah. 
Felix. 

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What do you think? 
Yeah, I guess I actually like 

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related to the financial times 
thing. 

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I've followed a little bit, the 
Reddit communities over time, 

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and they've also been switching 
a lot in Into more out, the 

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soul, the scam, you know, like 
it's pretty negative sentiment 

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for sure. 
I think overall though, I guess 

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you know, the killer use case 
for crypto is finance or defy. 

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And I think that propped up a 
lot of the market create a lot 

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of Leverage, right? 
And then these these people 

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like, actually Luna is full of 
Leverage, right? 

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As we have his full of Leverage,
Zuzu, every one of those in 

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there. 
They're like the loud voices, I 

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guess. 
And Obviously, when the market 

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as a whole changes Bama, come 
stay get washed out which should

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actually be a good thing. 
But in this case I guess it 

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takes with it a bunch of 
innocent people but I guess that

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that's kind of what happened and
it's not super surprising if you

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look at it in hindsight because 
I guess as we have is was 

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actually his first cycle 
basically he came in and 2019, 

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it was a bear market and I think
he said somewhere in interview 

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the When we expected was a 30% 
drawdown or something, which is 

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obviously not what happened, he 
should have looked at the crypto

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charts, you know. 
Yeah. 

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So so, but yeah. 
I guess, you know, then these 

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are the things that people see, 
right? 

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The big highest of big close, 
but I guess in parallel, we have

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all this technology being built 
but that's not really being 

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talked about in the mainstream 
Media or because I guess the use

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cases are just also Limited to 
the finance thing. 

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And so I'm not super surprised 
that this is, the sentiment in 

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The Wider sense, but I guess. 
Yeah. 

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To me, still nothing much has 
changed about the fundamentals. 

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I think, I think we all 
underestimate the amount of 

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understanding that people 
outside our bubble have about 

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this stuff. 
And like, even even people who 

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are kind of informed about 
Finance, So I'll give an 

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00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:41,200
example. 
I was in Dubai last week and we 

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were at this alternative an 
alternative investment manager 

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00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:47,800
Summit. 
And you know, a lot of the folks

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here are obviously like smart 
and like educated about finance 

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00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,100
and about markets and about 
yeah, the whole Space of Finance

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like tri-five but also fintech 
and overwhelmingly the people I 

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spoke with had like no notion or
like very fuzzy Notions about 

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that Sting ssion between C Phi, 
FTX type platforms, like 

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Finance, Etc. - was a sponsor. 
They're also, by the way. 

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And like, defy. 
Yeah, I've had to have several 

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00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:23,000
conversations where, you know, 
really coming back to First 

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principles and like explaining 
what the difference is between 

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like a decentralized finance 
platform and and I can FTX type 

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platform and it was kind of 
surprising, you know, You know, 

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I would talk to people and like 
start and I felt I was kind of 

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losing them as I really had. 
No. 

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00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,800
Wait like I need to come back in
time to explain things from it 

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from first principles. 
And and so it's kind of like not

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surprising that like the media. 
I mean, the media is even less 

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00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:51,900
informed. 
Yeah. 

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00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,500
I like I think that's one of the
biggest challenges here is the 

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00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,400
like crafting narratives that 
that are accurate, that make 

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sense, and that that 
differentiate between like what 

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00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:05,300
what F DX is and what Defy is 
Yeah. 

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00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:08,100
I mean they may be little bit 
too. 

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00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:11,500
I guess what, Phoenix, and what 
you said now did? 

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00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:16,800
This was the interesting thing 
is that Indie Fighters basically

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like no leverage. 
If anything, I think Luna was 

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00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,100
like a one system where you 
could say there was a kind of 

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00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:26,500
like Leverage mechanism or you 
have this kind of feedback 

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00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:31,300
mechanism, that kind of was 
like, Leverage, like and, and I 

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00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:33,900
guess what we did see is that 
low Luna guiso. 

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00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:38,800
It's because of that, it because
it just allows a kind of 

225
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,300
explosive growth. 
That is really hard when you 

226
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:45,300
don't have that. 
And then but in defy you 

227
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:47,300
basically almost don't have that
at this point. 

228
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:49,000
Maybe it's going to come 
probably. 

229
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,800
It's going to come at least 
increasingly so. 

230
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,700
But then you've had people build
these systems on top which were 

231
00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:01,600
all centralized and off chain, 
and then they were basically, 

232
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,900
you know, running kind of high 
delivery. 

233
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,200
The fractional Reserve System or
like, lending money to each 

234
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,600
other and using it as collateral
to lend more money and buy more 

235
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,100
and and in in the end right? 
For the most part, this was 

236
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:16,300
really like a big deal 
leveraging. 

237
00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:21,300
Now, big deleveraging with also,
a big amount of fraud mix in 

238
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,400
there, right? 
Because I think there's a lot of

239
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:31,000
lying about, oh, not leveraged 
when they were lying about how 

240
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,900
much leverage there was. 
But yeah, I think in the long, 

241
00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:37,000
We're on of course there isn't 
healthy aspect to it. 

242
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,900
I think block 5 is especially a 
good example of that, right, 

243
00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:47,000
where when they put out these 
Financial results of block fight

244
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,800
some point, they were like 
published and they lost like I 

245
00:14:50,808 --> 00:14:56,500
think was like 200 million in, 
you know 2020 2021 like the two 

246
00:14:56,500 --> 00:15:01,000
years or something like that and
have like a thousand people in 

247
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,100
this company all doing this. 
This interest account. 

248
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,500
So it's just like and even in 
the bull market, right? 

249
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:14,000
The lost so much money and, you 
know, see that's just like a 

250
00:15:14,008 --> 00:15:19,400
really bad business. 
Like that was, you know, I don't

251
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:25,600
think there was like fraud there
as as much as crappy business 

252
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,500
that then relied on like you 
know, lots of venture funding, 

253
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,300
lots of risks. 
But kind of being in denial 

254
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,900
about the risk, they were 
actually having And then, you 

255
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,200
know, where market and it gets 
wiped out. 

256
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,600
And of course, that's a good 
thing in some level 2, right? 

257
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,000
Because it think what what 
remains is going to be much 

258
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,900
healthier. 
But pretty painful in the 

259
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:50,700
process. 
Yeah, I mean but block fire was 

260
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,300
like this, you know, respected 
company. 

261
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:58,000
You know, I mean like to some 
extent ft x as well but I think 

262
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:01,300
even more so I mean from my 
perspective like even more so 

263
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:05,400
block Phi in terms of and 
mutation it's going to space for

264
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,400
a long time. 
I mean like at some point even 

265
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,000
we were like a block by would be
a good sponsor for epicenter. 

266
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:14,800
You know, I mean I was a user of
block fire and I did recommended

267
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,900
sometimes, I mean, I felt like 
when Celsius went down, it was 

268
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:22,700
like kind of very clear like, 
yeah, I know you don't want to 

269
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:27,500
be in this vein and so, you 
know, I guess I didn't end up, 

270
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,700
you know, managed to get out. 
And I think most of tweeted at 

271
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,900
some point like, hey, You in one
of these centralized lending 

272
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:39,600
things like, get out if anyone's
still is, right? 

273
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,000
I think this was some Still 
Standing highly. 

274
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,500
Highly recommend taking money 
out of that. 

275
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,700
Yeah. 
I mean, like again, I think it 

276
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,300
comes down to a lot of like, 
understanding of what these 

277
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:55,500
things are and education. 
And like, I'll give you an 

278
00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:58,300
example, like like Zen go. 
For instance is a wallet that I 

279
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,800
recommend to a lot of people and
that I use, you know, on my 

280
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,400
phone is stuff like great, you 
know, NPC wallet. 

281
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,400
Then in Zengo, it's like a earn 
interest on your crypto and you 

282
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,800
just, like move your crypto over
to this line. 

283
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,000
That could be like people. 
I think. 

284
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,700
Like, most people don't know 
where they're putting their 

285
00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:17,099
money, they're just have like 
some application. 

286
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:18,800
They've downloaded. 
They bought some crypto. 

287
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:24,500
Someone told them about it. 
And then they end up using some 

288
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:30,900
service that like is centralized
may be doing leveraging isn't 

289
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:34,400
regulated? 
I mean, I think the the Issue. 

290
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,500
Here it comes down to like we 
need to regulate like we need to

291
00:17:38,508 --> 00:17:40,500
regularly centralized crypto 
actors in the same way that we 

292
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:43,100
regulate financial institutions.
Like that that it seems like the

293
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:48,300
only solution that makes sense 
like a crypto lining platform or

294
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:51,500
a crypto exchange is just a 
traditional Finance business 

295
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,000
running on like a new asset 
class. 

296
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:54,700
Right? 
Yeah. 

297
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:58,900
I think it's ironic that like 
SPF was trying to get the defy 

298
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,500
front-ends regulated but 
actually the centralized actors 

299
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:06,400
are the ones that need the 
Regulation and defy system kind 

300
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,600
of works the way it is and 
doesn't need separate regulation

301
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,700
in my opinion to because 
obviously everything is 

302
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:16,400
transparent and you can check 
how the systems work, how 

303
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,300
solvent they are, and there 
cannot be any extra liabilities 

304
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:26,700
of chain for for defy system. 
So I think yeah, definitely 

305
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:31,100
agreed to that. 
What's your sense that? 

306
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:36,700
My biggest fear here and I think
we'll certainly see some of that

307
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:42,200
is this lack of Separation in 
the narrative right between C5 

308
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,200
platforms and defy platforms 
will end up hurting defy because

309
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,300
it will also get regulated or it
will like regulations will apply

310
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:52,900
to it. 
That don't make sense for it. 

311
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,600
I haven't kept up on Mica so 
much in the last, like, six 

312
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:57,800
months. 
Probably should. 

313
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:01,000
But, you know, from like some 
conversations I've had with 

314
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,700
people Who are close to that 
issue. 

315
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:07,500
You know, there's a desire to 
accelerate passing of mica, 

316
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,200
probably apply pretty strict 
regulations to stable coins and,

317
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,300
and, and I think probably like 
defy some, some parts of defy 

318
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,500
will end up having some of the 
same constraints to see fi even 

319
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:23,000
though it doesn't make sense for
them from like a practical or 

320
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,200
operational perspective. 
Yeah, I mean, of course, there's

321
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,800
also the big question of like, 
why, you know why you did a 

322
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,300
regular in the first place? 
Right, is it to actually, you 

323
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:38,600
know, reduce risk for people and
maybe little bit. 

324
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,000
But, you know, I think mostly 
it's because they are regularly.

325
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,000
This government's central banks 
are just worried about losing 

326
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,100
control and did defy thing is 
more threatening then you know 

327
00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:54,700
some centralized platform that 
you can more regulate. 

328
00:19:54,700 --> 00:20:00,100
So I think if they can like try 
to crack down on that then you 

329
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:05,000
know they're there they'll try 
Now, maybe you one thing where I

330
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,900
have sort of like a question 
mark of, I'm not sure about 

331
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:15,000
which way it's going to go or 
like the events of this year. 

332
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:17,100
Like what do they make more 
likely? 

333
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:23,300
Because I think on on one level 
it's also ties into my earlier 

334
00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,900
point right II. 
Think for many people bit 

335
00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:29,000
crypto, looks a lot less 
threatening. 

336
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,900
Now, you know, because that the 
asset size is like Much smaller,

337
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,900
you know, a bunch of people lost
money, but it's, you know, it's 

338
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:37,800
these crypto people anyway, 
right? 

339
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,300
And if you don't like Krypton, a
bunch of crazy people whose 

340
00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:45,000
money and like, well, you know, 
bad bad luck, who do I care? 

341
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:49,000
And it didn't really affect 
normal Financial system. 

342
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,200
I didn't, there was no kind of 
contagion. 

343
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,800
So then it's like, okay. 
Are you really going to spend 

344
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,100
all of this time diving into 
this complex thing to try to 

345
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,700
regulate it? 
Or you just gonna like the 

346
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,600
whatever? 
Now of course if there's like I 

347
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,600
guess it's not going to be like 
one or the other but I do think 

348
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,600
the kind of Market contraction 
bear Market is is unbalanced 

349
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,500
going to make regulation like 
less likely. 

350
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,700
But yeah I feel full of course. 
Let's say Mica things that are 

351
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,600
in work over the years. 
It's not like you're gonna stop 

352
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,700
that and it's not like more 
relations and still Cummings but

353
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:30,100
they think that was also I feel 
what which is something that I 

354
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:34,300
did not expect. 
And that was interesting this 

355
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:38,400
year, I would say most people in
crypto that I spoken to her. 

356
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,800
In the last year's, they were 
more of the opinion that, you 

357
00:21:42,808 --> 00:21:48,100
know, we had these early crypto 
adopters and they are more 

358
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:52,300
technically Savvy and they're 
more interested in the 

359
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:58,700
technology and, and and they 
will be more likely to use, you 

360
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:03,300
know, Hardware wallet or like 
self custodial. wallets and then

361
00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:05,700
you know you're going to have 
all these new people coming in 

362
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,500
and they're much more of an 
issue Beyond you know coinbase 

363
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,100
or finance and they use some 
centralized product but of 

364
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:20,400
course this year we've seen We 
have seen the risk of that and 

365
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,300
the Pains of that, right? 
And you know, we see more people

366
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:30,400
I think moving towards custodial
or you know, where people do 

367
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,000
self custody. 
And I think when you think of 

368
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,200
the regulation, that's also 
something where it's probably 

369
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,800
going to be way easier if you do
self custody. 

370
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,500
You couldn't have more control 
and maybe you could use stuff 

371
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:45,900
that you wouldn't be able to use
other way. 

372
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200
Guys. 
So, I do feel hopeful that that 

373
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,900
sort of trend is, there were 
actually a lot more crypto is 

374
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,700
goes back to like, why was this 
in the first place where people 

375
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:00,300
actually control their own 
assets. 

376
00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:04,300
They control their own private 
keys, they, you know, initiate 

377
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:09,300
their own transactions and 
that's, of course, really good. 

378
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,200
Yeah. 
Yeah, I think I follow Oriole 

379
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,600
again. 
Touch talking about Sango here, 

380
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,200
they're not a sponsor but I do I
just do love that wallet in in 

381
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,000
days after FTX like their their 
installs just like went up like 

382
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,300
crazy. 
I think also Ledger probably had

383
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:33,000
a lot of orders right after 
after the FTX thing. 

384
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:35,300
I mean, let's hope so. 
Alright. 

385
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,200
Alright, let's talk about stuff,
all this stuff. 

386
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,600
What? 
Else. 

387
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,400
Yeah, let's talk about what else
you guys think was most 

388
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,900
important this year, or like, 
what did you feel? 

389
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,700
Is when we look back in the 
future on 20/20, to what will 

390
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:56,300
people kind of think? 
Oh, that, that, that happened in

391
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:59,300
that, that ended up having a big
impact, or was the beginning of 

392
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:03,700
something significant? 
Yeah, I guess the obvious one 

393
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:07,200
that we kind of already 
mentioned is probably the 

394
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,300
etherium merge. 
So, I guess it's like the huge 

395
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:17,900
event of like kind of finally 
moving to proof of stake for the

396
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:23,300
theorem and it also like going 
that smoothly that it kind of 

397
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,700
didn't make the news I guess 
that's also the didn't you then 

398
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:30,000
you think that the new cycle you
need like something to go wrong 

399
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,300
to be on people's minds and but 
over all right it's impressive 

400
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:39,700
how that went down and now how 
it's all working because it's 

401
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:41,900
It, I guess the first we weren't
really sure. 

402
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:43,200
Right proof of stake was 
running. 

403
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,600
The picture was running quite a 
while almost two years now with 

404
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,600
without any like actual 
transactions. 

405
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,600
And it wasn't really clear how 
it would look if this entire 

406
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,400
defy ecosystem of billions of 
dollars would move across and 

407
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:03,500
just seeing that that worked and
that such a big transition can 

408
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:08,000
work in a distributed system I 
think is is something that is 

409
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,600
very impressive and probably I 
don't, If something like this 

410
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,900
would happen again in the 
future, or maybe it also proves 

411
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:18,900
that like, we can do these kind 
of decentralized upgrades to our

412
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,500
systems at such a big scale. 
So I think that's kind of my 

413
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:24,700
main one. 
I'm not sure if you guys. 

414
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,400
Yeah, probably, hopefully agree.
But definitely, I think that was

415
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,200
a huge, huge, huge event, and 
yeah. 

416
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,500
Congratulations to everyone 
involved. 

417
00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:39,300
I guess that's like an endless 
amount of organization and 

418
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,900
people in Evolved, I guess know.
We had course on were also 

419
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:47,200
working on that and like I mean 
we of course this was already 

420
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,800
right? 
Any theorem white paper at the 

421
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,100
end of 2013, is that go? 
It's going to move to proof of 

422
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:53,100
stake. 
And I remember, I think we did 

423
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:56,300
like podcast with metallic. 
And I think maybe 2015 or 

424
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:59,100
something, he's like, it's like 
six months or something or five 

425
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,300
months episode 58. 
Yeah. 

426
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:06,800
Yeah, yeah. 
So maybe it's 224. 

427
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,500
Did you say six months back 
then? 

428
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:11,400
Yeah. 
But we also did like animals, we

429
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,400
did like lightning episodes like
2015 and they're like, yeah, 

430
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,000
three months lightning is alive.
And you have take more like six 

431
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,500
years, whatever five years. 
But yeah I know they they had 

432
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:28,000
this but in the end it succeeded
I mean it was very successful in

433
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:33,100
in many aspects I guess the he's
a sort of lingering question 

434
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:37,700
probably mostly around. 
You know this flash pot. 

435
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:44,600
Amy Censorship, you know, like, 
obviously it's way better in 

436
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,200
terms of the economics of the 
theorem having proved, right? 

437
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,500
So it's good for either holders,
you know, because there's less 

438
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:54,500
die Lucian. 
And that's a great thing. 

439
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:59,000
And the energy impact is gone 
down like dramatically and and 

440
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,100
sort of game. 
Theoretically, the security has 

441
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,300
gone up. 
I think it's going to be very 

442
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:08,300
positive for aetherium. 
When, when more and more kind 

443
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:12,000
of, institutional interest comes
Back because the whole of like 

444
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,500
Energy Efficiency Green Block 
Chain, is going to be huge right

445
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:17,900
there. 
I think that would be a massive,

446
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,800
massive advantage that if your 
mum's going to have over Bitcoin

447
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,300
and but at the same time, I just
hope. 

448
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:26,800
Yeah. 
Also the separation of proposals

449
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,900
Builders. 
And, you know, now we have that.

450
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:33,900
I think a huge percentage right 
off, is there in validators or 

451
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,700
following this ofac sanctions 
list? 

452
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:38,900
I guess that's another thing. 
We didn't add it to the topics 

453
00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,000
for the think the So cash 
things, actually, a significant 

454
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,200
investment of this year as well.
Yeah. 

455
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:48,600
So that that does raise the 
question of yeah, like, the 

456
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,300
censorship resistance is I think
a big, big question and 

457
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,100
challenge for theorem, that that
is ahead is the ignorant 

458
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:01,300
Community trying to remedy this.
Yeah, I think they do have now 

459
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:04,800
as a sort of on the theorem 
roadmap like censorship 

460
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,400
resistance. 
So I think it's very at least. 

461
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,400
There is a I think That this is 
something that's necessary and 

462
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,000
you know, they're going to work 
towards and is an explicit goal 

463
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,700
so that like something like okay
the tornado Cashmore contract. 

464
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,100
Transactions are being censored 
to that or something like that. 

465
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:30,000
That's not possible. 
So I think at least as a goal, I

466
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,200
think there's consensus on that 
and there's like research 

467
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,300
towards that. 
I'm not sure. 

468
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,600
I think there are like ideas for
how to address it not super. 

469
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Up-to-date with like what the 
idea is are and how long it's 

470
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,700
going to take and how well 
they're going to work and what 

471
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,300
are the other side effects of 
those ideas? 

472
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:52,200
But I think at a high level ride
it, I guess you know this Mev 

473
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:58,300
topic came up pretty late right 
basically defy summer 2021, 

474
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:03,000
maybe even or 2020 and then 
flash was already building this 

475
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,000
tool to democratize it and then 
as a side effect because they 

476
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,900
are building this tool and 
running it themselves, they get 

477
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:15,300
a lot of traction with it. 
And kind of centralized this RPC

478
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,000
layer to some degree that that 
everyone is using meth boost. 

479
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:22,700
And then, yeah, this tornado. 
Cash thing happens in parallel, 

480
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,400
which probably also no one 
really saw coming like this, and

481
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,600
it somehow ended up with them 
obviously, having to make the 

482
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,900
choice that they will include 
essentialist, because they're a 

483
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:36,300
US company. 
And I guess it's just kind of a 

484
00:29:36,308 --> 00:29:38,900
matter of time though, because 
the goals, like you said, Brian,

485
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,700
they are there. 
And many people are working 

486
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:41,700
towards that. 
I think even the flash but 

487
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:46,100
seemed themselves, right? 
Allow others to run re layers. 

488
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:50,500
It's just that their relayer has
been Eating based on kind of the

489
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:53,400
traction it already had with, 
with Searchers and validators 

490
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,500
beforehand. 
So it's just generating more 

491
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,700
income so, but you can already 
see it going down a little bit 

492
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:04,500
with like other three layers 
coming in and some of them not 

493
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,300
following this, the sanction 
list and I guess with, when the 

494
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:11,200
full proposal build a separation
is there, I feel like it would 

495
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,100
be addressed surgically. 
It's just a matter of timing in 

496
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,200
some degree and yeah good to see
that. 

497
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:18,100
You know people realize the 
importance of it. 

498
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,100
I really enjoyed this. 
This panel from def con that we 

499
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:27,500
released a couple of weeks ago, 
the FedEx moderated and there 

500
00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:32,400
was a pretty I would like not 
heated, but someone somewhat 

501
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,000
disagree and conversation 
between Shriram from, I can 

502
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:41,400
layer and field ion of flash 
pots and I really like the way 

503
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,000
that tree ROM framed it which 
was essentially, you know, the 

504
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,000
validators beyond the obvious 
like validating Blocks and 

505
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,600
making sure blocks are like 
technically valid. 

506
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:55,200
They're simply they should 
simply, you know, be a testing 

507
00:30:55,300 --> 00:31:01,000
transactions and and notarizing 
those transactions is basically 

508
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,500
they just like a test of like 
the state of a block and like 

509
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:10,100
published a block to the Chang 
and I thought that was like an 

510
00:31:10,108 --> 00:31:15,000
interesting way to frame the the
topic of credible neutrality and

511
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,600
in the context of validators. 
Yeah I think like the ecosystem 

512
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,800
which is should Do everything it
can to arrive at that goal where

513
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,600
validator is simply just like a 
testing transactions, as not 

514
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,800
doing any sort of essential 
shape or like choosing what 

515
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,500
transaction should make it in 
the block or not. 

516
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,700
Yeah, I guess in the end, the 
thing is like, who chooses it? 

517
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:40,300
Then, you know, I guess you need
someone to build a block or 

518
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,400
somehow to have this order, I 
guess in proposal the 

519
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,900
separation. 
You just have this build a role 

520
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,800
and then it's kind of like 
Outsource to them to do this. 

521
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,900
Which I don't know if you change
my just shifts the 

522
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:58,100
responsibility I guess and I'd 
end up being more centralized to

523
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,700
it because I think at least it 
seems like a high likelihood. 

524
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:05,400
If you can have some specialized
Builder which may be pretty 

525
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,400
complex role that then you end 
up having you know, to three 

526
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,800
parties that are like making all
the blocks right? 

527
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,100
Like yeah validators you already
have quite a few in a sense, 

528
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:17,800
right? 
Like companies that do it. 

529
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:20,600
Builder is definitely I don't 
see how it how it can. 

530
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:22,300
I'd be probably gonna be less 
confidence. 

531
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:23,800
I agree. 
Are you guys thinking about 

532
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:24,700
this? 
Of course. 

533
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:30,000
What's your philosophy on this? 
I mean, maybe Felix you're a 

534
00:32:30,008 --> 00:32:34,000
darling, that's racist. 
Yeah, we can't give away our 

535
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,400
competitive Advantage. 
You. 

536
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,700
Yeah. 
I think I guess I think also one

537
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:43,700
thing that definitely happened 
is that it's kind of like over a

538
00:32:43,708 --> 00:32:46,600
compliance. 
I would say in for some of the 

539
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:51,100
people that they like, just Kind
of put the censorship list in 

540
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:53,600
practices even though there's no
one really asked them maybe and 

541
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,200
I think that is probably too 
much. 

542
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,900
I think we definitely chorus, 
right. 

543
00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:01,800
Our philosophy is that we need 
the censorship resistant. 

544
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,900
We need a decentralized 
ecosystem and I guess we would 

545
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:08,300
support that. 
But obviously, if like there is 

546
00:33:08,308 --> 00:33:10,800
like, super clear regulatory 
guidance, you can't do this and 

547
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,300
we probably wouldn't do it. 
But I guess our maybe at least 

548
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:17,200
then we would try to like engage
with The Regulators to the 

549
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,200
extent possible for us. 
And convince them of the need of

550
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,500
this. 
I guess it's already. 

551
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:27,700
What we would support now but 
yeah I do feel that some of the 

552
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:33,800
organization's maybe over 
complied to this and yeah. 

553
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,500
So so I think we would avoid 
this. 

554
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:39,100
I mean that's also build my 
personal view of how we 

555
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:40,700
internally afraid. 
Yeah. 

556
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:44,000
And including, of course, right 
ofac is a u.s. paying, right? 

557
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,900
This really applies to u.s. 
person so that then you have 

558
00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:52,200
like non us Organizations kind 
of complying to that is. 

559
00:33:52,200 --> 00:34:00,000
I think I'm sorry but I think 
the fatf guidelines probably 

560
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,100
include ofac sanctions list and 
therefore anyone who wants to 

561
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:10,600
comply with fatf guidelines? 
Probably will you know if ATF is

562
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,800
like not a regulatory thing, 
right? 

563
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,500
They basically it's not but if 
they do have tremendous 

564
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,199
influence on the way Banks and 
other institutions, Matush ins 

565
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,699
and anyone who interacts with 
financial system works, I mean, 

566
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:27,800
maybe the cofactor, something, 
it does not apply sure it is. 

567
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,699
Yeah, but I think fatf in their 
guidelines probably includes 

568
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,699
ofac or like, though, faction 
sanctions list. 

569
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,800
No, no, I'm not sure about this.
But, I mean, I think if you're 

570
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,300
that, I mean, I think fatf I 
mean again, I also I'm not an 

571
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:46,400
expert on this at. 
All right, so maybe I'm wrong, 

572
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:50,100
but I think fatf day, He has 
like guidance that you in 

573
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:53,100
different countries, have to do 
some sort of money, you know, 

574
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,700
you know money, laundering 
controls and whatnot, but then 

575
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,900
but yeah if 80, they're all 
factoring is like US Treasury 

576
00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:06,300
Department. 
You know, declaring some 

577
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:09,800
countries being like, you know, 
I mean most is around countries 

578
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,200
right there off acting, right? 
It's mostly like oh you can't 

579
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,600
deal with Iran because the US 
isn't like your own but for 

580
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,400
example, that doesn't apply to 
European companies, they can do.

581
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:21,100
If we were on, I guess where it 
becomes tricky. 

582
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:24,300
Is it, let's say if your 
European bank but you sort of 

583
00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:28,600
relying on, you know, access to 
the Ico connections, with the US

584
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,800
financial institutions, then 
you're like okay maybe we also 

585
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,900
have to comply with this even 
though technical doesn't apply 

586
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:38,400
because we're worried about like
our us counterpart. 

587
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,500
He's dancing. 
Like what we don't deal with you

588
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:44,800
or like losing access to some 
kind of you know, us financial 

589
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,900
services that they need, right? 
So I think in different 

590
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:51,400
Industries, Financial industry. 
I think, definitely this kind of

591
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,800
effect stuff ends up getting 
adopted by non us organizations.

592
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,500
Just because they're scared of 
like having losing access to the

593
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,400
US. 
Yeah, yeah. 

594
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:07,900
I think you're right. 
I mean, if it dif does have, I'm

595
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,800
looking here like countries that
they monitor and like also the 

596
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,300
EU publishes a list of either 
blacklisted or don't call blast 

597
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,300
Bliss. 
But basically it's like black 

598
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,200
fur. 
Two countries. 

599
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,500
So what? 
Yeah, with regards to like 

600
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:27,500
aetherium, and I think like in 
the continuation of our 

601
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:30,400
conversation here, with regrets 
to etherium, you guys had 

602
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,700
written here. 
Z KV, M, and eigen layer. 

603
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:37,900
Why are you so excited about 
these two things? 

604
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,400
I think these were, like, for my
perspectives. 

605
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,600
I was on a bunch of etherium 
conferences this year too, and I

606
00:36:44,607 --> 00:36:46,600
guess I'm following quite 
closely. 

607
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,200
So, if you like these, are the 
two Big Innovative or like 

608
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,100
interesting things that happened
in the theorem ecosystem this 

609
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,300
year. 
I mean, CK, evm. 

610
00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:03,000
I guess it's just like a very 
technological advance and quite 

611
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:07,000
advanced in that space. 
It seems so that you know, you 

612
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:13,400
can fully basically right 
normal, evm solidity code and in

613
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,200
NZ K. 
So I guess that might like 

614
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,300
change the way We see 
decentralized applications are 

615
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,600
how they work and how they scale
and privacy components of it. 

616
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,100
So I think that could be just a 
big game changer in that sense. 

617
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:33,000
And I mean, yeah, just 
impressive how fast this ZK is 

618
00:37:33,008 --> 00:37:37,200
based also, moving, I guess, 
which we also saw over the last 

619
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,700
two years, three years, right? 
I guess it has been really like 

620
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:44,000
a Cambrian explosion of all 
these cryptographic advances. 

621
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,700
And I think it's like slowly 
moving into. 

622
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,500
Yeah, practice in the crypto. 
With with actual actual 

623
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:55,200
applications around it and yeah,
I guess that's exciting. 

624
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,800
I mean I'm personally not even 
you know, you don't know, you 

625
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,700
don't even know what to expect, 
right? 

626
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:04,500
It's I think some of the killer 
apps will come from this, from 

627
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:08,400
ZK stuff in general, right? 
That because their, you actually

628
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,400
can do things that you couldn't 
do really before in the, in the 

629
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:18,300
C5 or of chain world. 
And so, I'm quite excited about 

630
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,000
Out that I don't know. 
Yeah. 

631
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,700
What do you guys think about 
like zero knowledge in general? 

632
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:25,300
Maybe or I guess the KVM 
specific. 

633
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,700
Yeah. 
I think it's I mean like I think

634
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:30,000
it's super cool. 
I mean I think one thing that 

635
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,300
crypto has accelerated, ZK 
research in a way that no other 

636
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,600
technology or industry has in 
the last year's and and there's 

637
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,600
all these really interesting and
cool use cases. 

638
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,300
So like I was talking with like,
penumbra a couple weeks ago and,

639
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,000
you know, it just like blew my 
mind that, you know, in the more

640
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,900
like an IBC ecosystem, you Use 
penumbra to execute transactions

641
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:59,400
in IBC in like non ZK zones, but
you're sort of executing those 

642
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,200
transactions from the literal 
penumbra, right? 

643
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,200
Like you are in the shadows and 
you're executing your 

644
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,000
transactions and like things 
like that, like, give me super 

645
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,100
excited about crypto. 
Yeah. 

646
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:12,500
We're we're I have doubts about 
it like usability and this is 

647
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:16,000
always a challenge and you know,
for a lot of privacy preserving 

648
00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:19,400
Technologies and applications Is
often the case that there are 

649
00:39:19,408 --> 00:39:23,900
used by like a small niche of 
people who are, you know, very 

650
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,000
passionate about the stuff and 
it rarely makes its way into. 

651
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,600
Like, I think the mainstream at 
least I don't have any good 

652
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,300
examples of that. 
So yeah, I hope that is to sail 

653
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,600
as to sell. 
Ya SSL is one example as cells 

654
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,200
is one good example, but like 
things like signal and stuff 

655
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,400
like that, but SSL was 
implemented as a kind of 

656
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200
infrastructure layer. 
And you know, in that in that 

657
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,700
sense SSL was implemented. 
To protect private party payment

658
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:52,000
information. 
You know in the early days of 

659
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,500
the web in the 90s like they 
build https SSL to protect 

660
00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:00,400
credit card data. 
And you know, this could be 

661
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,100
where also where ZK plays a huge
role is like protecting people's

662
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:08,600
financial information for that 
though, you need like a massive 

663
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,800
kind of adoption of crypto as a 
starting point and then 

664
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,300
implementation that would allow 
people to remain private and the

665
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,700
transactions. 
I mean, I guess is EK thing, 

666
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:21,600
right? 
Has like several Dimensions, I'm

667
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,600
a, you know, there is that they 
kind of scalability aspect, 

668
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,600
which I guess is probably where,
like most of the activities at 

669
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:36,000
the moment and I think that's 
seems pretty promising. 

670
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,600
I guess they're seeing to be 
like issues. 

671
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,000
There's a lot of complexity 
there right and I think a lot of

672
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,300
open questions still. 
I like you know how well is that

673
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:48,100
going to work? 
I am personally especially 

674
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,000
excited. 
I think kind of Sebastian. 

675
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,400
What were you brought up? 
Is the whole privacy thing 

676
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,900
because I think this is like a 
huge. 

677
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,200
Huge, huge issue is really the 
biggest issue. 

678
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,600
I think in crypto today is like 
a lack of privacy and I think 

679
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,800
it's gonna it's very scary, 
right? 

680
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Because all of this information 
is here and you will be able to 

681
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,600
go back in time, and it will all
still be here. 

682
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,200
And now if you see like, Ai and 
all of the progress here, like, 

683
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,700
I think you can kind of have to 
assume that everything will be 

684
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:26,400
fully known about, you know, 
what were all your wallet 

685
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,200
addresses? 
What is everything that you were

686
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,900
doing? 
And probably kind of soon. 

687
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,400
And that's just like, hmm. 
You know, really not great. 

688
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,100
Right? 
Because I think that's, I mean, 

689
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,600
from a private security 
perspective, right? 

690
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,000
Like makes it vulnerable to 
being like robbed and attacked 

691
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,400
from that perspective. 
Of the government cracking down 

692
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,900
on stuff. 
It makes it, you know, if you 

693
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,400
know there's some doll and you 
can just figure out who are all 

694
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,100
the token holders and like 
pretty easy to shut down the 

695
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:05,200
doll. 
And, and I'm definitely worried 

696
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,600
that the pro, I mean, of 
character's perspective. 

697
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,900
He attacks is it. 
No, to pretty sure, I mean, II, 

698
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:16,600
still think this is going to be 
the main way that That 

699
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:20,500
governments are going to like 
crack down on crypto. 

700
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,800
I think it's going to be through
taxation. 

701
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,900
You know, that they're basically
going to be like you've been 

702
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:28,400
saying this for years. 
Yeah, I think it's going to 

703
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,000
happen. 
I feel like pretty confident on 

704
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,900
that because it's just gonna be 
so easy, you know? 

705
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:38,700
Like you're gonna have all of 
the data given the tax rules and

706
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:41,300
given how crypto works. 
It's basically inevitable. 

707
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,800
That almost everyone didn't pay 
the taxes correctly and then you

708
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,300
can go after them and you. 
Even have to amend any new rules

709
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:52,100
regulations, you can find them, 
you can make make their lives to

710
00:42:52,107 --> 00:42:54,600
pain. 
And I am worried that the 

711
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,200
progress. 
When it comes to privacy Tech in

712
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,500
crypto is very slow. 
It's not great. 

713
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,000
Like we are nowhere near having 
kind of privacy preserving 

714
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,500
crypto. 
I think that's like, how far is 

715
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:12,400
that way? 
Five years more? 

716
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:16,200
Like, it's far away, like 
scalability will kind of 

717
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:19,500
Solving, right. 
But privacy not at all. 

718
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:23,900
And I think I didn't mean there 
is like a linear growth of these

719
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,500
of these Technologies and like 
people building use cases and 

720
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,000
people trying to adopt them and 
stuff. 

721
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:33,500
But then they're like, you know,
you're mentioning SSL up until 

722
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:38,000
like the early 2010s. 
I think it was like 2011-2012 or

723
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,000
maybe even earlier most websites
did use a cell you use SSL when 

724
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,400
you interact with your bank to 
do when you went to the payment 

725
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:45,900
portal. 
But when you were just like 

726
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:48,500
logging And whatever you weren't
using SSL and then Google 

727
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:51,300
decided that it was a good idea 
for everyone to start using SSL.

728
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,400
And since Chrome was one of the 
major browsers and most used 

729
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,800
browsers on the internet. 
They, they basically like force 

730
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,700
everyone to start using SSL 
because if you didn't use SSL 

731
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:06,200
one your website would be not 
rank so well in SEO. 

732
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,600
And then the other reason was 
that you would get like this big

733
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,300
kind of like red warning. 
This website is not secure Etc 

734
00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:13,300
and so like that forced the 
whole industry to move Justice 

735
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:17,700
out and it'd be great if we had 
like Like some sort of forcing 

736
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:21,600
event in crypto wear like some, 
you know, application that was 

737
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:27,900
used by lots and lots of people 
would sort of impose privacy on 

738
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:31,800
on users, but that we're not at 
a scale yet. 

739
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,500
We're like enough, people are 
using crypto and also crypto 

740
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:36,800
super fragmented where, you 
know, there's like tons of 

741
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,700
wallets. 
Nothing is very few standards 

742
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,100
across different ecosystems. 
I mean like you have standards 

743
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:44,500
and etherium, you don't have the
same standards and Cosmos or in 

744
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:46,700
Solana or anything else. 
It's hard. 

745
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:49,900
Like I was I was talking to 
those most about this yesterday 

746
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:54,000
and it's like the fragmentation 
at the at the wallet layer and 

747
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,100
also at the infrastructure that 
makes you very difficult to 

748
00:44:56,100 --> 00:44:57,600
create like industry-wide 
standards. 

749
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,100
Yeah well I mean did the issues 
like you mean someone creates an

750
00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:05,400
application that's like private.
I know let's say someone creates

751
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:11,000
a private decks it's like okay 
that's nice but now if all of my

752
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,400
address is are like the 
anonymised and I'm like moving 

753
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:16,600
something in. 
There. 

754
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,000
And then, like, taking something
out. 

755
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,500
Like, how much does it really 
help? 

756
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,500
Right? 
Like know that much, maybe it 

757
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:26,700
helps with something. 
So I maybe helps with, like, I 

758
00:45:26,707 --> 00:45:29,900
don't know, phones are more 
comfortable to trade because you

759
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:32,000
maybe can't like blink, some 
trays. 

760
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,900
So maybe there are some things 
like that, right? 

761
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:39,800
But I think that, you know, that
the fundamental privacy super 

762
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,900
hard, right? 
I mean I guess private transact 

763
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:45,800
like this sort of private 
payments like Z Cashman era, 

764
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,100
have it. 
You know, that, that I guess 

765
00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:51,700
seems like, you know, achievable
and maybe the technology is kind

766
00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:57,800
of there for that, but then 
smart contract interactions and,

767
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:05,500
like, defy, and like cross chain
and so hard or anythi stuff. 

768
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:07,700
I will use a good now. 
It is already doing it. 

769
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:12,900
Well, see if your network was 
just like kind of fell apart. 

770
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:17,900
No, it's just like a sgx. 
I mean They I guess okay, I 

771
00:46:17,908 --> 00:46:20,900
don't know exactly. 
But I guess some of the history 

772
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,100
was you can. 
Now I'll all of this food. 

773
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,900
I think all of these three. 
I mean I'm I also have not so I 

774
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:35,200
have not super closely read 
about this so I may be wrong but

775
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,200
what I did kind of it was 
basically there's some like 

776
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:44,000
there was some sgx vulnerability
that basically allows anyone to 

777
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,300
go back through like all of the 
History of that of the Singapore

778
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:50,800
chain and like the anonymize, 
like everything. 

779
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,100
You could like decrypt. 
Yeah, sure, yeah. 

780
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,900
I think something like this. 
I'm not sure if that's still 

781
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:01,600
possible or definitely. 
I think there is like a new 

782
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,900
architecture where I guess the 
mitigated it and from now going 

783
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:07,200
forward it would not be like 
that but until its next thing, 

784
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,900
happens would be a big event. 
Yeah, I mean for now yeah, I 

785
00:47:11,900 --> 00:47:14,500
guess that's also the issue with
this technology, right? 

786
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:17,400
That will not be in production 
for a long before you. 

787
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:20,300
Yeah, you need to have like a 
certain time. 

788
00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:23,200
It's running to Understand if 
it's really like non 

789
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,400
exploitable, like I guess the 
kind of Lindy effect. 

790
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,800
So I do agree that everything 
would be like five plus years 

791
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,800
out. 
I think though, right? 

792
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,900
If you can have private 
computation or like on the 

793
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:36,600
smart, then then it does we met.
Now you can do private entities 

794
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,600
and you can do whatever, right? 
It doesn't really limit you if 

795
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,500
you can do it, like generalized.
I guess that's what the KE VM 

796
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,700
and these kind of things are 
trying to do. 

797
00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:50,700
Right here is a list of the 
stream your teachers here. 

798
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,300
As DX dot fail and one of the 
like the top thing is secret 

799
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:59,900
Network and then I guess like 
some DVD technology that got I 

800
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:02,600
got pwned. 
But yeah, this is just came out 

801
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,800
like a couple days ago, okay. 
Well, my my meta rats and ftes 

802
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:20,800
are now doxxed. 
How about? 

803
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,100
Yeah, how about that. 
Secret system. 

804
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:24,900
Let's yeah. 
Maybe some of the interesting 

805
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:27,600
things here. 
I think, you know, obviously, 

806
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,000
well, I'll be there. 
I think like there's been some 

807
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,200
progress, but it's also been. 
I feel like it's been a little 

808
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,800
sluggish, the whole, like, Adam 
2.0 thing over the last couple 

809
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,200
of. 
Well, I guess, like, two months 

810
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,100
has been a little bit draining, 
I feel like on the, on the 

811
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:48,100
community and I'm not really 
sure like where things go from 

812
00:48:48,100 --> 00:48:51,400
here. 
It's unclear to me. 

813
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,300
Now like I feel like there's a, 
there's a lot of questions 

814
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:59,500
around what is the future of the
hot like more so than then like 

815
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:03,600
when we were having these 
debates and yeah, like I guess 

816
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,500
interchange Security's going to 
get implemented fairly soon. 

817
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,700
But as for all of the other 
features that that were included

818
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:17,300
in this in this white paper, you
know, the Mev staff, the the 

819
00:49:17,300 --> 00:49:21,400
allocator, all these other 
things feel like were a long. 

820
00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:24,400
Time away from from seeing these
things being implemented or like

821
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,600
at least some progress being 
made on this front. 

822
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,600
What are your thoughts on where 
where the cosmos top is heading?

823
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,500
I mean, notnot that this is the 
entire cost of Sikhism, but how 

824
00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:35,800
did you come out of that? 
Hold the bridge. 

825
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:39,100
Yeah, I mean, I guess, first of 
all, you have any calls most, I 

826
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:42,000
feel like Cosmic ecosystems 
doing super well, like lots of 

827
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,400
new chains and, like, lots of 
activity. 

828
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,500
The interest from VCS is 
increased a lot this year. 

829
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:51,300
So there is like, funding. 
I think it's up, like, I don't 

830
00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:51,900
know. 
Much. 

831
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:57,000
But like pay a huge amount. 
So I think kosmas ecosystem, 

832
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,500
your looks were bullish. 
Now when it comes to the cosmos,

833
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:03,100
hop on some level. 
This is there was always this 

834
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,700
this question for a long time. 
This man just question of like 

835
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,000
what's the cause of the top? 
For me? 

836
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:14,100
They was this kind of idea back 
in the white paper of this IBC 

837
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:18,400
routing Hub, but people didn't 
really seem to like believe in 

838
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,400
that so much and that hasn't 
happened. 

839
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:25,600
Happened and I guess it doesn't,
you know it, IVC at this point, 

840
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,200
as much more like point-to-point
connections, which of course has

841
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,700
like big advantages to. 
And so I think it's unlikely at 

842
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:36,000
this whole routing hop thing 
comes and of course that has 

843
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,700
kind of been I think abandoned 
more or less and then. 

844
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:40,800
Yeah. 
But then it was like, okay, 

845
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,700
what's the Hop for indigenous 
security right? 

846
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:47,100
Is is obviously coming. 
Alright, seems to be coming, 

847
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:50,400
right, progressing, well and 
stuff, and there's like demand. 

848
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,800
So I think this is pretty good. 
Right? 

849
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,500
Like, that's something that I 
think was away less certain 

850
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:58,600
before, and now it seems like, 
you know, very likely including 

851
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,300
like a whole bunch of, like, 
solid things that want to deploy

852
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:03,700
on it. 
So, I think from that point of 

853
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,800
view, like the Hub looks like 
better than a year ago, right? 

854
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:12,100
Nowadays, of course, the 
question of like, how much value

855
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,600
does interchange security bring?
And, you know, does it kind of 

856
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,600
justify the market cap of atoms?
Because I think to some extent, 

857
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:24,000
Adam has been treated as this. 
You by Adams and you have some 

858
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,700
kind of, you know, expose you to
the cosmos ecosystem, even 

859
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:33,000
though that's not not really 
true or it may be true to some 

860
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,800
extent. 
But you know, it doesn't like 

861
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,700
someone builds a chain on Cosmos
and it succeeds doesn't 

862
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:43,500
necessarily mean it. 
Any any value to its atoms? 

863
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:46,200
I think the whole atom 2.0 
thing. 

864
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:51,000
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how 
things are going to progress. 

865
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,000
Writer. 
Yeah, I mean if you like the 

866
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:59,800
discussion was very vibrant and 
vigorous and very engaged and I 

867
00:51:59,808 --> 00:52:02,600
think that's what's good. 
You know, I did have a lot of 

868
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,300
reservations around the, I 
think, the way to proposal has 

869
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:07,000
done, which I guess was shared 
by others. 

870
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,800
So it kind of got rejected any 
end of those wet clothes. 

871
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,700
Yeah, and I do feel like coming 
back with more, you know, more 

872
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:22,900
actually concrete, limited clear
prop, Proposals, you know, it's 

873
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:26,000
the right way to let's see, 
let's see. 

874
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,400
But I would say, overall I feel 
the cosmos Hub has progressed in

875
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,800
the last year, although maybe 
not as much and as fast as one 

876
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,100
would have hoped. 
Yeah. 

877
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:41,900
Felix. 
Yeah, I would agree to all this.

878
00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:47,300
I think the it's also kind of 
what it's not too surprising, 

879
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:48,300
right? 
Because it's such a 

880
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:53,800
decentralized system and there. 
So hard to convince everyone of 

881
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,700
something. 
And I mean, a lot of the things 

882
00:52:56,700 --> 00:53:01,300
in the past, even before all 
this have struggles to to gain 

883
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,800
the right like traction, that 
that other ecosystems are other 

884
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:07,900
like centralized more, 
centralized layer ones or 

885
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:10,600
ecosystems have less problems 
with because there is, I guess, 

886
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,300
just one United, like company 
organization that kind of pushes

887
00:53:14,300 --> 00:53:16,100
forward with with a certain 
direction. 

888
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:21,200
So yeah, I think in this case, I
do agree that it's a chain. 

889
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,400
Security seems to at least have 
that traction. 

890
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,900
I think that the issue then is 
right into chain security can be

891
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:32,100
implemented by every Cosmos own 
and a lot of the zones also or 

892
00:53:32,300 --> 00:53:36,600
change plan to kind of offer 
security to some some other 

893
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,400
chains. 
Like I think F most for example,

894
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,900
or I actually probably almost 
everyone that was Moses wanting 

895
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:44,700
to also interchange secure 
chain. 

896
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:47,600
So I do kind of believe that 
there will also be this, this 

897
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,500
mesh security system in the long
run. 

898
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:53,300
And that, like, you know, chains
provide security to each other 

899
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,600
both being a provider and the 
kind of consumer. 

900
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,600
So in that sense, I guess it 
again, questions a little bit, 

901
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,500
what that means for the cosmos 
job, if that's the future by 

902
00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:09,700
overall, I think the ecosystem 
developing very fast. 

903
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:12,900
A lot of people entering the 
cosmos ecosystem. 

904
00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:16,600
Like almost everyone we speak to
or like, I guess we're also very

905
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,700
heavy in the in the Customs 
ecosystem, but still, you know, 

906
00:54:18,700 --> 00:54:21,500
you see a lot of teams coming. 
In that that weren't really 

907
00:54:21,500 --> 00:54:26,600
native or new to crypto from 
other web to or threat Phi and 

908
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,100
they start building in Cosmos. 
I think that's extremely bullish

909
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,900
and we've really seen a lot of 
new teams like that emerge and 

910
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:41,000
yeah, super excited for that. 
I guess, you know, I don't know 

911
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,300
what your guys thoughts are on 
that traction, that the 

912
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:47,600
customers has and I think also 
that application-specific, I 

913
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,000
guess story overall, it seems to
like Like be adopted even by 

914
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,100
other ecosystems like if you're 
in with L2 stuff. 

915
00:54:53,100 --> 00:54:57,900
So I do think Cosmos on the 
right path and first is the long

916
00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:01,600
in that sense. 
I think the I think I Echo your 

917
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,600
sentiments about the like just 
tons of people coming into the 

918
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,400
ecosystem. 
What I think is really exciting 

919
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,800
about that is we have all these 
people who are coming to the 

920
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,400
ecosystem, that weren't in 
Cosmos before, like through, 

921
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,900
these are like new people. 
They just like found about found

922
00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:19,100
out about it on their own and 
now they're using the technology

923
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:22,100
and they're using. 
To build things that they think 

924
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:25,500
are interesting, or valuable. 
And it's bringing all this, 

925
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:28,700
these new ideas, and it's kind 
of like diversity of people 

926
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:32,500
backgrounds to the space that, 
you know, makes for like really 

927
00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:36,200
good Innovation. 
And like like like good with 

928
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,400
lots of great ideas coming into 
the space, just generally. 

929
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:42,600
And yeah like the app the app 
chain thesis seems to be. 

930
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,200
Also picking up in other spaces 
as well. 

931
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:50,400
I wonder like the thing that I'm
struggling to to to like wrap my

932
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,700
head around right now is how the
action thesis in the modular 

933
00:55:53,700 --> 00:55:57,000
thesis sort of come together, 
you know? 

934
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,000
Do they are start overlapping at
some point. 

935
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:04,700
Do act chains you merge or 
slowly become you know more 

936
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:09,900
modular either through shared 
security by Outsourcing may be 

937
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:13,900
like parts of the settlement or 
data availability to other to 

938
00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:15,700
other kind of infrastructure 
layers. 

939
00:56:16,300 --> 00:56:21,400
And yeah I think like this whole
Space is Super interesting to me

940
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,900
and I find that any Innovation 
and like any kind of new design 

941
00:56:24,900 --> 00:56:26,700
patterns happening in the 
spaces. 

942
00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:30,500
You know, is great because like,
we get to see, we get to figure 

943
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:33,200
out which, which is the best way
to build the stuff, such as it 

944
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,200
scales and it could be usable 
and like it, you know, remains 

945
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,500
secure and maybe also, by 
scaling it. 

946
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:42,600
And by modularizing it. 
At some point, we can start 

947
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,300
putting in more like ZK & 
Privacy layers that that's 

948
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:47,000
spread out across the whole 
ecosystem. 

949
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,200
I totally think right there. 
That this experimentation is 

950
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:53,900
yeah. 
What makes Cosmo so strong, 

951
00:56:53,900 --> 00:56:57,100
right? 
And then you can have like one 

952
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:02,000
chain to like a certain thing 
little different way and if it 

953
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,700
works out right others will 
adopted. 

954
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:09,000
So I guess this emergent 
properties is a very strong 

955
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:10,500
starting point and yeah, then 
let's see. 

956
00:57:10,500 --> 00:57:13,300
When Celestia comes along and 
all these things how that will 

957
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:16,300
change the space? 
I have definitely excited for 

958
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:18,600
that. 
I think also you know like from 

959
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,100
some of the new teams like Say 
and there. 

960
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:24,200
So there's also like talks of 
layer 2 on Cosmos, you know? 

961
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:29,500
So basically that kind of this 
structure also being adopted in 

962
00:57:29,500 --> 00:57:34,100
Cosmos and maybe other VMS so 
that that seems interesting. 

963
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,000
Brian. 
I know you won't talk about her 

964
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,200
bit. 
Yeah. 

965
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:41,800
Talk a little bit about that. 
Yeah. 

966
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,100
I mean, it's definitely someone 
things I've been most excited 

967
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:48,900
about this year and Yeah, I mean
we've done some podcasts about 

968
00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:50,200
it too. 
And, you know, said that 

969
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,500
conference in Miami and 
September I think which was 

970
00:57:53,500 --> 00:57:58,600
pretty great and, you know, he 
is, I mean, he's like an old 

971
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,900
project right? 
That's been kind of developing 

972
00:58:01,900 --> 00:58:04,800
for a long time but I think has 
evolved into more of a like a 

973
00:58:04,808 --> 00:58:07,500
vibrant ecosystem with other 
companies. 

974
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,200
And I think there is you know, 
the crypto synergies are also 

975
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:16,900
becoming coming more up. 
You know, some example if that 

976
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,000
Glued, you know, Oak Bar where, 
you know, building basically a 

977
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,800
ZK, roll-up blockchain on orbit.
It's kind of like an ATM roll 

978
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,700
up, but like, honor bit and 
using like, you know, smart 

979
00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:32,600
contracts are written in the 
kind of herb it language. 

980
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,300
So, it's pretty powerful, right?
Because you could write like 

981
00:58:35,300 --> 00:58:39,300
your application in this as long
with your smart contracts. 

982
00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:41,800
And of course, the way orbit 
applications work is that 

983
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,700
they're running on people's 
servers, right? 

984
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:49,900
So you and that Times have been 
quite relevant when you tie it 

985
00:58:49,900 --> 00:58:52,200
in with some of the things we 
talked about before around. 

986
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,200
You know, trying to crack down 
on front ends and regulating 

987
00:58:55,200 --> 00:59:00,500
defy. 
And there was, I think, just two

988
00:59:00,500 --> 00:59:05,300
weeks ago, a few weeks ago, I 
saw someone show like a demo of,

989
00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:08,400
you know, them having the units 
of pain and running on Urban 

990
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:09,200
right? 
Because. 

991
00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:11,200
Yeah, that's pretty powerful, 
right? 

992
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,300
Because you could just take the 
phone and deploy in an herb it 

993
00:59:14,300 --> 00:59:16,900
and then people can sort of run 
their own. 

994
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,500
Front ends and it faced with 
that and then you don't really 

995
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:23,600
have that ability to regulate 
front-ends anymore. 

996
00:59:24,300 --> 00:59:30,400
So I do think that it's it's a 
more resilient way of addressing

997
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,800
some of these issues around, you
know, some privacy, right? 

998
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,700
Like you can you can have a lot 
more privacy this way to and you

999
00:59:39,700 --> 00:59:42,400
can have more control it could 
it could be more censorship 

1000
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,400
resistant so I do expect that we
know we're going to see a lot 

1001
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,700
more of that. 
Urban still kind of early as an 

1002
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:58,600
ecosystem, so it's probably 
another year or more until that 

1003
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,600
kind of stuff really starts 
working. 

1004
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:06,500
But, you know, I think it's it's
coming and and I think it will 

1005
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:09,100
end, it could end up becoming 
like, you know, very powerful, 

1006
01:00:09,100 --> 01:00:10,400
right? 
Becomes kind of dislike 

1007
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,700
operating system layer for 
crypto. 

1008
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,500
There's also one thing actually 
there is Is a very in a way one 

1009
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:22,600
of the best arguments I think 
for urban and crypto is I want 

1010
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:27,100
to play this, you know, big 
criticism of crypto where you 

1011
01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:31,000
did the signal founder Moxie. 
Marlinspike wrote this article 

1012
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,100
it was this is a few months ago 
and was very widely. 

1013
01:00:34,100 --> 01:00:37,900
Shared my first impressions of 
web 3 we can put the link in the

1014
01:00:37,900 --> 01:00:43,300
show notes but it's basically he
you know he was like okay this 

1015
01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:48,300
crypto thing is nice. 
Well he's Like to talk about all

1016
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:51,600
this decentralization. 
And and maybe there is that kind

1017
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,900
of decentralization like, you 
know, on the blockchain level. 

1018
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:57,900
But then when people actually 
interface with this stuff, 

1019
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:02,300
right? 
It's using some RPC note that 

1020
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:06,300
like you kind of trust or at the
very least are like tracking all

1021
01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:09,400
your data and you don't have any
privacy and he's like, what is 

1022
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,400
this bullshit? 
And he talks a lot about like, 

1023
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,800
you know, here people don't want
to run their own server. 

1024
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,500
Has and never will. 
And so he's basically says, like

1025
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:23,000
cake ripped or without people 
running their own servers. 

1026
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,600
Like doesn't make sense because 
you still trusting others. 

1027
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,300
And and of course that's exactly
what they were but it is 

1028
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,400
addressing right to make it 
really easy for people through 

1029
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,700
on their own server. 
Yeah. 

1030
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:38,800
I think it took going to become 
very important and you know, a 

1031
01:01:38,808 --> 01:01:43,600
tremendous area of like 
Innovation and growth and sort 

1032
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,400
of merging of, I think orbiting 
crypto that's going to happen in

1033
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,600
the next year. 
Year, two years, three years. 

1034
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,000
Not not to like dive deep into 
make this a are B. 

1035
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,900
Dive, deep, deep dive. 
But can you, can you run like a 

1036
01:01:57,908 --> 01:02:00,200
turbot server on your phone or 
something like that? 

1037
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:04,500
Or is it something that's 
possible to do on on this sort 

1038
01:02:04,500 --> 01:02:07,300
of device or is it have to be 
like an always-on kind of thing 

1039
01:02:07,300 --> 01:02:10,000
or that you know, where you're 
either running on a computer in 

1040
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,900
your house or like on a 
Raspberry Pi? 

1041
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:14,700
Yeah. 
Well if it doesn't work it has 

1042
01:02:14,700 --> 01:02:19,000
to be on when you use it right 
away. 

1043
01:02:19,100 --> 01:02:23,200
When you rely on it, so you 
could have it run on your 

1044
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,600
computer. 
I mean, you can do that, right? 

1045
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,500
And then you could just I mean, 
it's definitely, it definitely 

1046
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,800
works. 
In terms of you know, Gmod 

1047
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,300
resources needs. 
Totally, totally suitable to run

1048
01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:39,500
on on someone's computer. 
Maybe you could run it on a 

1049
01:02:39,508 --> 01:02:42,000
phone. 
I don't think that is possible 

1050
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,300
today, but maybe you could, the 
issue of that, though, is if 

1051
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:51,400
you're using like a SAS product,
We're using some application and

1052
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,100
then it into in the interfaces 
with like a server, right? 

1053
01:02:55,100 --> 01:02:58,100
Then it may be the applications 
on your phone or on your 

1054
01:02:58,100 --> 01:03:01,500
computer or somewhere else. 
Then you need that server to be 

1055
01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:05,500
running and you know, that 
service may be on AWS and buy 

1056
01:03:05,500 --> 01:03:07,900
some company. 
So like you can rely on that 

1057
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:11,700
that works. 
So when you in irbid world, 

1058
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:17,100
let's say now you have a smart 
contract app it into you wanted 

1059
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:19,000
to use on your coat and on your 
phone. 

1060
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,300
Another times using on your 
computer and stuff, you will 

1061
01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:24,900
want to speak. 
Like you basically want to make 

1062
01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:29,100
API calls to your server. 
And if the server, like, let's 

1063
01:03:29,100 --> 01:03:31,300
say if you have it on your 
computer and then you computer's

1064
01:03:31,300 --> 01:03:36,100
not running and now you have an 
urban app on your phone, you can

1065
01:03:36,100 --> 01:03:38,700
use the app anymore because it 
can talk to the server, right? 

1066
01:03:38,700 --> 01:03:39,900
Because the computer is not 
running. 

1067
01:03:40,100 --> 01:03:42,500
So the a I think it's going to 
depend on like what are you 

1068
01:03:42,500 --> 01:03:45,000
using it for? 
I can give you like let's say 

1069
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:50,400
using it for like I'm just I'm 
doing The transactions River 

1070
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,000
bit, right? 
And I have it on my home 

1071
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,200
computer and I'm just putting it
out when I'm doing crypto 

1072
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,300
transactions and otherwise like 
I think that should actually 

1073
01:03:57,300 --> 01:04:00,400
work fine. 
But if you use it if you want to

1074
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,600
use it as a more, I mean that 
ambition of herb is much larger 

1075
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,000
right? 
To do a lot more things, then I 

1076
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,500
think you do need to have the 
always-on thing. 

1077
01:04:09,100 --> 01:04:11,100
Could you just have to State be 
synced? 

1078
01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:15,400
Like, it couldn't you say, like,
have the state, like the 

1079
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,300
encrypted State just sink to say
like iCloud and then your Phone 

1080
01:04:19,300 --> 01:04:22,100
just as always kind of sinking 
in the same way that you use 

1081
01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:24,300
like a Google Drive sitting 
there thinking you're a bit 

1082
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:27,800
server to the iCloud and then 
you seeking the phone from 

1083
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,400
there. 
Yeah. 

1084
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:33,900
I don't know, like, I don't know
what like, I mean I suppose data

1085
01:04:33,900 --> 01:04:36,800
in there and there must be like 
some packages, but if you are 

1086
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:42,100
thinking, like if you have your,
your orbit note on your phone 

1087
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:47,600
and then you sinking into the 
cloud and then you like sinking,

1088
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,800
like you. 
If that from your phone, then 

1089
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:52,800
why not just run it in the 
cloud? 

1090
01:04:53,300 --> 01:04:56,100
Like what's the point of your 
eye? 

1091
01:04:56,100 --> 01:05:00,400
I think is like to, I think is 
like, basically two paths, 

1092
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,000
right? 
One is that you you having you 

1093
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,800
hosting it with a third party in
the crowd or if you're hosting 

1094
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:10,900
your third party who guarantees 
reliability and stuff. 

1095
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,300
So we have been actually working
on that, of course one but to 

1096
01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:16,900
like build this. 
And I think the other option is 

1097
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:21,300
that you're going to have like 
Like a device, like a hardware 

1098
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:26,200
device that's like on, you know,
in this also company working on 

1099
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:27,800
this. 
This one called native planet 

1100
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,500
looks really cool. 
But you know, we basically have 

1101
01:05:31,500 --> 01:05:33,400
something you can just plug in 
at home and then there's your 

1102
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,200
orbit thing. 
And, you know, you'll be able to

1103
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,300
connect with it and can always 
be on or they could be more 

1104
01:05:40,300 --> 01:05:42,400
limited use case, right? 
If you say like I'm going to use

1105
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,700
it for crypto and you know I 
just use it when I use it and 

1106
01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:49,800
then it runs on my computer and 
otherwise is off and And I think

1107
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,100
that actually makes a lot of 
sense also, because maybe you 

1108
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:53,700
won't want to segregate it, 
right? 

1109
01:05:53,700 --> 01:05:56,500
Maybe you'd have like, one herb,
it where like you doing a 

1110
01:05:56,500 --> 01:05:58,700
communication stuff. 
Maybe have another one where 

1111
01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:02,100
it's like, crypto transactions, 
and that you want on your own 

1112
01:06:02,100 --> 01:06:04,800
computer at home and it's just 
wrong sometimes. 

1113
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,400
So maybe something like that. 
Could make sense. 

1114
01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:11,400
Overall though it's easier to 
run. 

1115
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,800
Like if you would say just 
compare like a irbid nodes or 

1116
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,600
ship or whatever it's called 
with with, with a etherium 

1117
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,400
validator or something you 
think. 

1118
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,100
Yeah. 
I think it's much easier to run 

1119
01:06:23,100 --> 01:06:25,700
it. 
Yeah, definitely. 

1120
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,800
And even if you go down right, 
you don't really have immediate 

1121
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:36,200
like when you could use at all, 
also you don't have to sit. 

1122
01:06:37,700 --> 01:06:41,200
There's nothing to think, right?
There's no like State. 

1123
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,300
Yeah, Status, yeah. 
Do you have upgrades or 

1124
01:06:44,308 --> 01:06:46,900
something for the irbid software
on this? 

1125
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,300
Yeah. 
But they're all automated like 

1126
01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:54,300
you don't have to do anything. 
But then who decides. 

1127
01:06:54,300 --> 01:06:58,600
What's the upgrade or how this 
just well, I think depends on 

1128
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:04,400
the kind of upgrade, right? 
But I think the apps can upgrade

1129
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:11,900
themselves right or If you have 
a more like, if it's like a 

1130
01:07:12,100 --> 01:07:16,000
whole network level of upgrade, 
and I think that, you know, this

1131
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,600
kind of like a governance body 
that would have would have to 

1132
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:24,200
vote on you know if there's like
some very low level upgrade but 

1133
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,300
that those are, I mean the whole
design of it is that this is 

1134
01:07:27,300 --> 01:07:30,300
like those would be extremely 
rare events or like you get to 

1135
01:07:30,308 --> 01:07:32,300
the point where it like that 
never happens. 

1136
01:07:33,100 --> 01:07:36,500
I think that's gonna be my 
Christmas Vacation project. 

1137
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:37,800
I'm going to install an herb, it
sir. 

1138
01:07:37,900 --> 01:07:39,900
Iran. 
My I've got a little server here

1139
01:07:39,900 --> 01:07:44,900
in the house, right? 
Tries to put up, is there 

1140
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:48,700
anything else we we want to want
to talk about here? 

1141
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:50,400
I think we covered most of it. 
Yeah. 

1142
01:07:50,900 --> 01:07:52,700
Oh yeah, there was Solana. 
Yeah. 

1143
01:07:52,700 --> 01:07:58,700
Solana came fell short and maybe
just your thoughts on, what's, 

1144
01:07:58,700 --> 01:08:02,100
what's going on with Solana. 
And what is the future of this 

1145
01:08:02,100 --> 01:08:04,600
ecosystem? 
Given the pain. 

1146
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,700
They're suffering. 
Yeah, I think it's like a big. 

1147
01:08:08,100 --> 01:08:13,500
Trial by fire right of the whole
community and the resilience of 

1148
01:08:13,500 --> 01:08:16,000
the ecosystem. 
I do think there's a lot of like

1149
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,600
developers on their right? 
There's the apps. 

1150
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,500
There is teams that are doing 
interesting work and I do think 

1151
01:08:22,500 --> 01:08:25,899
will come out stronger from from
it funnily enough. 

1152
01:08:25,899 --> 01:08:27,600
Right there was the breakpoint 
conference. 

1153
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:30,500
The second one this year just 
before they whole FDX. 

1154
01:08:30,500 --> 01:08:32,700
Collapse. 
I felt you know, their stuff 

1155
01:08:32,700 --> 01:08:35,300
going on. 
There are even like one of the 

1156
01:08:35,300 --> 01:08:37,700
first ecosystems or I think 
actually maybe the first outside

1157
01:08:37,700 --> 01:08:42,100
of The theorem that is working 
on client diversity in a serious

1158
01:08:42,100 --> 01:08:46,600
way, ride with jump building, 
this fire dancer client, that 

1159
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,600
will essentially also improve 
the performance of Salon, even 

1160
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:53,500
more and kind of, finally even 
like create a spec for what's 

1161
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:57,500
Alana is, I guess. 
Also improved the actual Solana 

1162
01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:01,100
Labs client itself so I think 
that that's very mature, sign of

1163
01:09:01,108 --> 01:09:02,399
maturity. 
And yeah. 

1164
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:06,600
So overall, I think quite 
exciting here to stay and keep 

1165
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:08,700
building. 
Keep building. 

1166
01:09:08,700 --> 01:09:12,300
I think that's I think that's 
probably a good note to end on 

1167
01:09:12,300 --> 01:09:17,800
and certainly the sentiment that
a lot of people who are building

1168
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,000
have right now, you know, beyond
the fight and everything. 

1169
01:09:21,100 --> 01:09:22,399
Yeah. 
I think the overwhelming 

1170
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,700
narrative that I see on a crypto
Twitter and, you know, people 

1171
01:09:26,700 --> 01:09:30,000
who are coming in the podcast, 
everything is like, just got to 

1172
01:09:30,008 --> 01:09:31,899
keep building. 
And I mean, like, we've been 

1173
01:09:31,899 --> 01:09:36,200
through this before already and 
we built and let me build a 

1174
01:09:36,207 --> 01:09:40,399
bunch of stuff during those. 
Those those bear markets and out

1175
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:45,399
of all that work and Innovation 
and came in the applications. 

1176
01:09:45,700 --> 01:09:48,200
So yeah I think just keep on 
battling. 

1177
01:09:49,100 --> 01:09:52,100
Yeah. 
Absolutely, I think nothing 

1178
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,000
really has changed, right? 
It's just I mean a lot has 

1179
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:01,100
changed and nothing has changed 
when it comes to like the why 

1180
01:10:01,100 --> 01:10:02,800
and where's it all going and 
stuff? 

1181
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:06,300
It's I think it's the same and 
it's just a long journey, right?

1182
01:10:06,300 --> 01:10:08,500
Like I mean we are still alive. 
I mean, we talked about the 

1183
01:10:08,500 --> 01:10:10,200
Privacy thing went what? 
Okay? 

1184
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:12,400
And I think everyone was always 
aligned that, okay? 

1185
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,700
Privacy is essential the needs 
to be privacy or pretty much 

1186
01:10:15,700 --> 01:10:17,800
everyone. 
But then we'll also like, oh, 

1187
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:21,200
it's like five years off, 10 
years old, right? 

1188
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,300
So I think for crypto to the 
really like realize its 

1189
01:10:25,300 --> 01:10:30,000
potential, you know, it's 
another, you know, it's 10, 20, 

1190
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:35,400
30, 40 years had still like it's
a long long time but still so 

1191
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,600
exciting so much happening and 
so cool to work on. 

1192
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,400
Yeah, I mean, I think like, 
we're still super early and I 

1193
01:10:41,407 --> 01:10:44,500
keep telling us the people, you 
know, like look at 15 years ago 

1194
01:10:44,500 --> 01:10:48,500
where the web was and like in 50
like 15 years ago, we didn't 

1195
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:52,900
have, you know, secure websites,
we were still using flash to do 

1196
01:10:52,900 --> 01:10:54,700
video. 
You know, there was like no 

1197
01:10:54,700 --> 01:10:57,900
unified experience between 
browsers and certainly not 

1198
01:10:57,900 --> 01:11:00,300
between mobile and desktop. 
Yeah. 

1199
01:11:00,300 --> 01:11:03,000
Like maybe it was like a mess. 
I mean, I was building on the 

1200
01:11:03,008 --> 01:11:07,300
web 15 years ago and like, it 
was really hard and there were 

1201
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:10,800
all these problems that That we 
didn't know how to solve and we 

1202
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,900
solve them in the last 15 years.
And, you know, we think that 

1203
01:11:13,900 --> 01:11:16,000
like we've always had, you know,
flashy mobile phones. 

1204
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,700
Like we forget that 15 years ago
like building on the web was a 

1205
01:11:18,708 --> 01:11:21,100
shit show and it didn't scale 
very well. 

1206
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:24,400
And and then that yeah, massive 
investments in infrastructure 

1207
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,100
and tooling and and standards 
allowed us to get to where we 

1208
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:30,400
are now. 
And we're still at only 60% of 

1209
01:11:30,407 --> 01:11:33,100
the population using the web 
other worlds population, you 

1210
01:11:33,100 --> 01:11:37,000
know, so yeah, it's a long game.
Yeah guys. 

1211
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:43,300
This has been great and I wish 
you both happy year and holidays

1212
01:11:43,300 --> 01:11:47,600
and also to all our listeners. 
Thanks for tuning in and thanks 

1213
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:51,500
for being here for with us for 
yet another year. 

1214
01:11:51,900 --> 01:11:53,800
And we'll do this again next 
year. 

1215
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,300
Yeah, thanks so much looking 
forward to episode 500. 

1216
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:01,100
Yeah, it's coming soon. 
All right. 

1217
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:04,500
Bye-bye yeah, cool. 
Thanks so much. 

1218
01:12:04,500 --> 01:12:06,500
Everyone and enjoy your 
holidays. 

1219
01:12:08,700 --> 01:12:10,600
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1220
01:12:10,900 --> 01:12:12,500
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1221
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,800
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1222
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,900
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1223
01:12:19,300 --> 01:12:22,100
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1224
01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:25,000
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast, go to 

1225
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,200
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a full list of places where you 

1226
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,800
can watch and listen, while 
you're there, be sure to sign up

1227
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,600
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1228
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,800
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1229
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,300
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Podcast listeners, you can 

1230
01:12:38,300 --> 01:12:40,900
follow us on Twitter and please 
leave us a review on iTunes. 

1231
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:43,400
It helps people find the show 
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1232
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:45,900
them. 
Well, thanks so much and we look

1233
01:12:45,900 --> 01:12:38,300
forward to being back next week.
Podcast listeners, you can 

1234
01:12:38,300 --> 01:12:40,900
follow us on Twitter and please 
leave us a review on iTunes. 

1235
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:43,400
It helps people find the show 
and we're always happy to read 

1236
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:45,900
them. 
Well, thanks so much and we look

1237
01:12:45,900 --> 01:12:47,000
forward to being back next week.