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This is epicenter. 
Bitcoin, episode 131 with 

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guests, Stefan, Thomas, and Evan
Schwartz. 

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this episode of epicenter 
Bitcoin is brought to you by hi 

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Hi, welcome to episode a 
Bitcoin, the show, which talks 

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about the Technologies, 
projects, and people driving 

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decentralisation and the global 
cryptocurrency Revolution. 

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My name is Sebastian quechua, 
and my name is Brian Feldman 

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crane. 
We're here today with Stefan 

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Tomas and Evan Schwartz. 
Stefan many listeners are 

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probably knows. 
He's been on the show before 

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he's the CTO of repo. 
Evan is a software developer a 

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triple apps, and they are also 
the co-creators of the intellect

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or protocol intelligence very 
exciting because they're trying 

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to tackle one of to believe 
really hard problems which is 

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interoperability when you have 
100 new project, coming up with 

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your own blockchain and people 
trying to integrate that into 

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all kinds of other systems. 
It's just becomes a bigger and 

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bigger problem. 
So we're glad that they're, 

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they're trying to tackle that 
and we're excited to speak about

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that project today. 
So thanks so much for joining 

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us. 
Guys, thank you. 

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So yeah even actually I we've 
been we've been sort of 

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harassing you guys to come on 
for. 

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I don't know how long 6 months 
perhaps and no no I'm excited 

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that it's finally working out 
and I think Avenue also gave a 

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talk, I'd meet up in Berlin 
about this. 

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No. 
And you also gave, you should 

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also add, I think there was 
maybe a year before or maybe 

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even longer than that a workshop
on code use once. 

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So can you talk briefly just 
sort of where those into logic 

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come from. 
And how does that relate to to 

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code? 
Use your? 

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So when we were working on the 
code use projects, one of the 

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project. 
One of the things that really 

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came out of that was like 
starting to think Beyond a 

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blockchain and thinking, 
thinking beyond having one 

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cryptocurrency that everything 
sort of tied to we didn't want 

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everyone to have to use extra P 
or Bitcoin or just one specific 

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cryptocurrency to pay for Cody 
has contracts. 

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And we also wanted the Contracts
to then be able to trigger 

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payments without having to 
integrate with, you know, 10 

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different types of blockchains. 
And so it's really join that 

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time that we started to think 
about interoperability and like,

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how do you make it so that the 
user can pay with one thing and 

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Dakota's host can accept another
thing and have it still work. 

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And it also have sort of a 
standard protocol to kick off 

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payments into control where 
money is, no matter what kind of

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Legend you're talking about, 
could be, you know, blockchain 

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the centralized Ledger Etc. 
And so that's where this sort of

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key sort of core. 
It's probably came from for us 

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and I'll just add that a lot of 
like today. 

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If you want to make payments 
most Payment Systems in the 

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world work fine. 
As long as you want to send a 

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payment to someone else who's on
that same payment system. 

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So if I'm in Europe and want to 
send a payment using Sefa works,

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well if I have Bitcoin and you 
have Bitcoin works, well, if I 

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have PayPal and you have PayPal 
probably works. 

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Well, the problem comes in. 
If I have one of those and you 

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have a different one, We have no
match and maybe there's no way 

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for we don't want to get another
account. 

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We'd like to, when we talk about
the decide, this vision of the 

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internet of value. 
What we see is an experience 

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worth much more like, how the 
internet actually works, where I

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have whatever money or whatever,
I'm on, whatever Network I want 

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and I can send money to you. 
So that's a lot of where the, in

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the interoperability goal comes 
from. 

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But wasn't this originally kind 
of also the idea of Ripple that 

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you can sort of thing, 
connecting to all kinds of 

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different things. 
Send you know, people can issue 

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assets on Whipple and then 
everything kind of moves 

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smoothly as well. 
Okay was even the idea of a 

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Bitcoin. 
I mean if you think about it 

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without the, that was one of the
promises of Bitcoin is that you 

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can use Bitcoin to send money 
anywhere around the world 

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without having used Banks and 
and that in Bitcoin provides a 

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layer of interoperability all 
those people I guess was did 

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make the step that you say, 
okay, you can issue a US dollar 

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on Ripple or something like 
that. 

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Yeah, this this obviously, you 
know, really speaks to me the 

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way that you're putting it 
because that has been really my 

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journey. 
In terms of the goals always 

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been the same. 
It's been two to make, you know,

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the movement of money as 
frictionless as information, but

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that was the reason I got into 
Bitcoin. 

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And what I noticed with in 
Bitcoin, was that why you needed

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support for different currency? 
So I joined Ripple. 

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And then I noticed with ripple 
that yes, you know, we have 

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different currencies, but you 
still have sort of this issue 

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that you're all have to be 
connected to one Ledger. 

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It doesn't address how to move 
the money from um, that ledger 

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to all the other systems out 
there, just never going to be 

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one Ledger that all data is 
stored on all, you know, all 

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transactions happen on and the 
reason is not even scalability. 

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I think we could solve 
scalability with with sharding 

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and with other cool Concepts. 
But the problem is that there's 

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a sort of scalability of 
functionality, as sort of, you 

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know, diversity, in terms of the
use cases, where you can't have 

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one system that really perfectly
serves. 

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Each use case is the same system
It's going. 

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Micro payments going to be good 
for moving, billions of dollars 

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is the same system that that's 
really decentralized. 

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Good for someone who wants like 
the lowest latency possible, 

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probably not. 
So it's probably good to have 

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some layer on top that allows a 
little bit of diversity in terms

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of the ledgers and still makes 
it possible to transact. 

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As without thinking about the 
difference of Ledger and 

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thinking about, I have to go 
from this network to this 

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network. 
And what we've also seen is that

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because there's so much that 
goes into the design of a 

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specific Ledger and there's so 
many decisions Ins that are 

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made, and often there's some 
Compares economic interests in 

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people using your Ledger. 
What do you end up? 

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Having is someone's, let's say I
come up with a ledger that's 

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going to be the Ledger for 
interoperability. 

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It has all the best features 
Etc. 

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So I I go to you and I say here 
come get on my ledger and then 

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but your you already have the 
Ledger that you're using and you

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say no you should get on my 
ledger, not the other way 

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around. 
And then you're at an impasse 

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you end up with a very Action 
System where everyone is saying 

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my ledger is the best one for 
interoperability but you don't 

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end up with interoperability 
because everyone stays in their 

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own camps. 
And so what we saw the need for 

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was something that could bridge 
that that allows everybody to 

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use, whatever The Ledger they 
want. 

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And it doesn't matter. 
And we can still get that 

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payment experience. 
We're looking for So what's 

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what's interesting here is that 
you use this term Ledger is a 

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ledger, an accurate description 
for all these different systems 

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that hold value because I've 
always kind of heard Ledger in 

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the context of blockchains, 
right? 

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We speak about of distributed 
Ledger's, but does it make sense

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to speak of Ledger's and when 
you speak about PayPal and all 

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these other systems that you 
want to be interoperable here, 

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In general, the term Ledger just
refers to back in the day, 

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really back in the day and in 
some places still a ledger is 

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just a book with accounts and 
balances and it records changes 

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to those. 
And ultimately what you care 

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about is like I have this 
account, how much of the thing 

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that I'm tracking, does that one
own? 

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And you can see everything from,
we use that as a, kind of 

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general term because every every
one of these different 

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cryptocurrencies banks pay A 
pallet cetera. 

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Are they all operate, Ledger's? 
Maybe it's possible that they 

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don't think of them set that as 
being their primary function, 

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they may think of themselves as 
a payment Network, for example. 

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But underlying all of that you 
have some listing of accounts 

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and balances. 
And that's what we talk about. 

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When we mean, when we say Ledger
and one should also add write 

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that into Ledger itself is 
actually not a lecture, right, 

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correct? 
Yeah. 

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There's no Ledger built-in. 
It's, it's purely a protocol for

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interoperability person. 
Protocol suite for 

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interoperability between 
different Ledger's. 

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I think also interesting to 
point out and perhaps what when 

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people initially think of these 
things? 

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I think of a network and 
internally other is not a 

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network even it's it's a 
protocol at clearly at the base 

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layer, what a protocol is it 
allows people to organize around

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the same way to communicate. 
Yeah. 

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So there's actually a pretty 
close analog between inter 

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Ledger and the internet. 
That's also part of why we chose

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the name. 
So for example on intellegent 

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there is a way A to address 
different Ledger's that address 

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accounts in different Ledger's. 
Just like the Internet Protocol.

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IP has IP addresses to address 
host on different networks. 

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There's also other similarities.
So for example, on into the 

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protocol Suite, you have TCP and
you have UDP, which are what's 

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called transport, protocols and 
so they take care of things like

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retries and we transmissions and
so there's an equivalent 

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intelligence. 
Well, so it's just a parallel in

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terms of internet is not a 
network. 

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It is just something that ties 
different networks together. 

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There is minimal way possible. 
That's a really key point 

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because when so, a lot of 
different cryptocurrencies have 

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have been called at different 
times, protocols for money and a

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key thing to understand about 
that is that all of these 

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cryptocurrencies Bitcoin, Ripple
Etc. 

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Have protocols that they use to 
communicate with one another. 

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But the really key point is that
in order for me to use the 

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Bitcoin protocol usefully, I 
have to be connected. 

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Two to the one true Bitcoin 
Network. 

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There's not really any purpose 
for you and I to use the Bitcoin

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protocol with one another, if 
we're not both talking about the

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exact same network because then 
basically what you're talking 

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about is a fork or an altcoin 
or, you know, a different chain 

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and that's not, that's not 
Bitcoin. 

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That's your other thing. 
And so while they do have 

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protocols, in order to use them 
usefully with both Bitcoin and 

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ripple, you have to be connected
to the network of specific 

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validators Etc. 
Whereas Within To Ledger. 

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It's really just a way for 
different networks to peer with 

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one another. 
So there's no, there is no one 

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enter Ledger in the same way 
that there's no real. 

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There isn't really one internet.
It's just it's a network of 

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telecommunications networks. 
And what we talked about it as 

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one thing, but it's really an 
abstract concept that just made 

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up of this network of Networks. 
Yeah, and then me what's 

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interesting in the literature 
that you written in the white 

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paper, is that you reference, 
these are seized from the late 

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80s that describe the Internet 
Protocol and describe. 

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Yeah, IP, and it's really 
fascinating to me that I mean, 

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these these, these ideas have 
been around for so long and we 

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can get into this later. 
But it seems to me that inter 

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Ledger itself. 
The fact that it's happening 

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Eating now and of course, like 
you guys are in the Bitcoin 

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world and ecosystem, and what 
have you? 

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But I mean intellegent could 
have existed a long time ago. 

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Even before Bitcoin, there's 
nothing that I don't think. 

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Anyway, that Bitcoin brought 
anything new to the table that 

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made into Ledger and here, at 
least possible. 

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So it's sort of fascinating that
it's happening. 

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Now like 25 years after the web 
was created and know whatever 

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how long after the internet was 
created and it took so long to 

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get here. 
When All these principles have 

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been around for for quite some 
time it's a really good 

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observation. 
I gave some guest lecturers 

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recently for for some students. 
And one thing that that I told 

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00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,500
them is that, I think the 
biggest contribution that the 

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Bitcoins really made is that 
it's brought a lot of really 

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00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,400
smart people into the space of 
Finance where, you know, a lot 

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of them might have not even 
thought of themselves as 

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Financial Engineers, anything 
like that or something that that

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00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:27,400
would be something they could 
ever have an impact on and think

228
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,300
Bitcoin. 
If everybody sort of this 

229
00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:32,600
realization that no, you can 
have a huge impact by working in

230
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,500
this space and by working on 
these Technologies. 

231
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,700
And so I think that's a really 
powerful contribution and I 

232
00:12:37,708 --> 00:12:40,200
think that's why these types of 
efforts are happening. 

233
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,300
Now it also got a lot of 
financial networks to say oh hey

234
00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:48,100
we should probably look at this 
new technology that's coming out

235
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,000
and what you know what everyone 
nowadays is it what are we doing

236
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,200
about blockchains? 
And I that that's also a really 

237
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,000
big thing to get existing 
existing Financial players To 

238
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,800
come along and say, Yeah, we 
actually we like that Vision 

239
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600
that you're pitching. 
How can we be part of it? 

240
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:06,000
The doors are all open right 
now. 

241
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:08,500
Yeah. 
I think what Bitcoin May might 

242
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:11,700
have brought all sorts of this 
change in mindset, then this 

243
00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:14,800
idea that you can innovate 
without permission, and in this 

244
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,500
financial space, which is highly
regulated, and sort of, you 

245
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:21,200
know, cordoned off. 
So let's, let's talk about it 

246
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,800
into larger, the architecture, 
can you give us a description of

247
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:27,800
what are the different layers of
the architecture? 

248
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,400
Sure of the protocol. 
So we use a model with hardly 

249
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,200
four layers. 
And the four layers are at The 

250
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,600
Ledger layer, the inter Ledger 
layer, the transport layer, and 

251
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,500
the application layer from 
bottom to top. 

252
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,800
So, the bottom layer to Ledger 
layer is basically where you 

253
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,300
find The Ledger protocols. 
This is where you find the 

254
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,500
Bitcoin protocol. 
The Ripple protocol, you know, 

255
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,000
ISO 20000 22, which is with a 
lot of banks use. 

256
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,900
So this is where you find sort 
of the nuts and bolts of making 

257
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,300
Money movements making transfers
on individual ledgers. 

258
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:04,100
The next layer is the inter 
Ledger layer and on the 

259
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:08,400
intelligent layer, what you find
is basically the header, the 

260
00:14:08,408 --> 00:14:13,300
information that is necessary to
associate a transfer with what's

261
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,100
supposed to happen on another 
Ledger afterwards. 

262
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:20,800
So if you see an intellectual 
transfer on one Ledger, a 

263
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,300
connector can look at that 
header. 

264
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,900
And look at that into Ledger 
layer data and knows what to do 

265
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:27,400
with that transfer going 
forward. 

266
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,400
Now with that, you have sort of 
this this graph of nodes 

267
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,700
Ledger's and connectors. 
And the next thing you need to 

268
00:14:34,708 --> 00:14:38,300
do is you need to actually send 
something across that without 

269
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:41,600
without dropping the money or 
things falling apart halfway. 

270
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,900
And so for that, we have a 
transport layer and so just like

271
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:49,300
TCP takes care of retries. 
We have a transport protocol 

272
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:54,400
called UTP Universal transport 
protocol, which basically takes 

273
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,300
care of retries and takes care 
of putting money in escrow such 

274
00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,100
that it can't. 
Get lost on the way. 

275
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:02,000
And then finally, you have an 
application layer. 

276
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,500
And so on the TCP IP site on the
internet side, you would find 

277
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:08,600
the HTTP there. 
You'd find smtps. 

278
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,800
There's lots of different 
application layer protocols. 

279
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,800
This probably the layer where 
there's the most diversity. 

280
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:16,700
And so we think with intelligent
could be very similar where 

281
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,600
there are sort of a, you know, a
bread-and-butter standard 

282
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,900
protocol which we haven't 
designed to Edge which is the 

283
00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:26,300
equivalent to http. 
But then there's lots of other 

284
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:27,800
ones that are for specific use 
cases. 

285
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,200
So for example, within Ripple, 
we have one called payment 

286
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,100
service protocol, that is 
proprietary, that is completely 

287
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:35,300
just used within Ripple. 
That's an application layer 

288
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:37,300
protocol. 
That builds on the open, I'll be

289
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:41,700
protocols. 
Let's take a short break to talk

290
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,900
about High Dot me, you know, you
need to VPN provider to protect 

291
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292
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With High Dot me, it couldn't be

293
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294
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295
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297
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298
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Good too hyped up. 
Me / epicenter. 

299
00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:11,700
The best thing is when you start
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300
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later, you're going to get 35% 
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301
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unlimited bandwidth, using up to
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302
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At the same time, you can use 
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303
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,000
You can pay with Bitcoin and 
best of all it comes with a 

304
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,400
feeling of peace and 
satisfaction, like, having tea 

305
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,900
with the Dalai Lama, we would 
like to thank, I taught me for 

306
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:34,000
their support of epicenter 
Bitcoin. 

307
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,500
So, talking about the first one,
The Ledger layer as sort of Did 

308
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:44,500
the fundamental I guess it would
it be correct to say The Ledger 

309
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:48,500
layer is really kind of a set of
requirements that different 

310
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:52,100
Ledger's have to fulfill in 
order to be part of 

311
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:55,700
intellectual. 
There's a couple different 

312
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:56,800
different ways you can look at 
it. 

313
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,200
So The Ledger layer is the 
Estefan was saying the protocols

314
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,800
that individual ledgers use. 
So the Bitcoin protocol for 

315
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,500
example. 
And so here we in we put out 

316
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:08,200
this architecture document and 
in there. 

317
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,000
One of the things that talks 
about is different, light levels

318
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,300
of functionality that an 
individual Ledger might use in 

319
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,200
order to support inter Ledger 
best. 

320
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,400
So the absolute minimum is, you 
have some protocol for 

321
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,200
expressing transfers from one 
account to another That's like, 

322
00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:31,100
really that the absolute minimum
and having a, having a way to 

323
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:34,700
either have a unique identifier 
or a memo, some kind of memo 

324
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:39,800
attached to that transfer is, is
on, is like, on the lower lower 

325
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,500
end of functionality. 
So if you have basic transfers 

326
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,400
from one account to another, 
with some data attached, to be 

327
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,900
able to say this is that 
transfer we talked about. 

328
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,100
So what would an example of this
me? 

329
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,300
That's a step up payment where 
you have an idea. 

330
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,400
Band, and, you know, you stand 
in the mound, and then, you can 

331
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,000
also send some text with the 
payment. 

332
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,400
Yeah, exactly. 
Exactly. 

333
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:05,600
Today we're kind of in that 
phase where, like, when you talk

334
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,200
about set by as a ledger with 
into Ledger, like the first 

335
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,700
thing that comes to my mind is 
as fast as sepa isn't as 

336
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,200
efficient as set by is, is it 
really that kind of, you know, 

337
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,100
legit, I could participate in 
its alleged transaction and 

338
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,500
something that's really put that
in context. 

339
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,300
For me recently is like looking 
at some old videos when people 

340
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,800
are first experimenting with 
internet, protocols, And they 

341
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,000
were also using a lot of 
not-so-great networks. 

342
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,900
You know, you can kind of think 
of that phone receiver that you 

343
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:33,500
putting on to the thing and then
it makes a noise in the phone 

344
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:35,500
receiver, picks it up, right? 
That that sort of old school 

345
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:39,100
stuff and so that's kind of the 
phase that we're in right now. 

346
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:40,800
Yeah, you could make an 
intellect, your payment over 

347
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,800
set, but we also imagine that 
interest going to put a lot of 

348
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,100
pressure on Ledger's to get a 
lot faster, a lot more efficient

349
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:50,700
and the true intelligent Vision 
won't be realized until Ledger's

350
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:52,500
have sort of. 
Yeah I just have caught up with 

351
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,500
it essentially. 
That's where I can. 

352
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:57,100
I can speak a little bit more to
what some of those requirements 

353
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:59,600
would look like. 
So Stephane mention things like 

354
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,800
speed and like, latency and 
scalability. 

355
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,300
So that's that's one piece of 
it. 

356
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:06,900
That a lot of letters right now 
are not very scalable and so 

357
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,400
that would sort of limit the 
throughput. 

358
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,600
Obviously, another part of it is
when Stefano was talking about 

359
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,000
the different transport 
protocol. 

360
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,900
So the way the universal 
transport protocol works is 

361
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:22,400
specifically what it's trying to
address is we have the way into 

362
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,000
a ledger works. 
Is you have Ledger's and you 

363
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,300
have connector sitting in 
between them and a connector, is

364
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,200
some party that has an account 
on both Ledger's. 

365
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,100
And what you want to do is I 
want to send my money to a 

366
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,400
connector that shares a ledger 
with me and I want them to pass 

367
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,300
it on the print. 
The immediate problem you run 

368
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,900
into when you're talking about 
that is what happens if they 

369
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:45,400
steal it or lose it. 
And so that was the first thing 

370
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,400
that that we had to address with
inter Ledger. 

371
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,300
And that's what the universal in
the white paper. 

372
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,300
It's called Universal mode. 
Now, we're calling it, The 

373
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:55,900
Universal transport. 
Also what that is all about, is 

374
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,800
I don't actually want to just 
send the money to, let's say, 

375
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,100
Stephane is the connector and he
may be trustworthy, maybe not 

376
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:05,700
but there's, there's some other 
people behind him as well. 

377
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,800
And so I really only, I want, 
one of two things. 

378
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,900
I either want a guarantee that I
want a guarantee that either I 

379
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:18,200
will get a signed receipt from 
my final recipient saying. 

380
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,200
Yep. 
I got the money or I want my 

381
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,200
money back and so that's the 
guarantee. 

382
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,100
That the universal transport 
protocol has that either, you 

383
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,500
have your money, either, you 
keep your money or you get a 

384
00:20:29,508 --> 00:20:31,500
signed receipt. 
And so, the way that works 

385
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:35,400
briefly is basically, with 
escrow where instead of sending 

386
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,900
the money directly to Stefan, 
because he might run away with 

387
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:41,200
it or steal it, what I'm going 
to do is put it in escrow on my 

388
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,700
ledger and so with Bitcoin you'd
use hash time lock with other 

389
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,000
things you could use as a 
dedicated sort of escrow thing. 

390
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,900
But the key point is that The 
Ledger itself is providing the 

391
00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:54,700
escrow. 
So I tried Money in escrow and 

392
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:58,000
it only comes out if Stefan can 
deliver me that 

393
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,600
cryptographically signed receipt
from the recipient. 

394
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,100
And so we set up this chain of 
escrows and so, everybody's 

395
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,000
putting money in escrow all the 
way down the chain. 

396
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,300
Then the recipients. 
He's oh, there's money in escrow

397
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:15,600
for me, just pending my signing 
this receipt, they sign the 

398
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,100
receipt and that trickles back 
all the way along the chain. 

399
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,800
Okay? 
So I think in one of your talks,

400
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,900
you described it as The escrow 
goes from. 

401
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:30,600
So if you have like payments 
going from left to right, yes, 

402
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:39,500
Crow comes back right to left. 
Can you perhaps give some more 

403
00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:46,100
detail as to how the connectors 
are sending money back and forth

404
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:47,700
in the escrow like a net 
transaction. 

405
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:52,400
And by the way, so what they're 
for people, who are listening, 

406
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,400
who want to get, Better sort of 
visual understanding what this 

407
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,000
looks like you can go to 
slideshare.net /, general ledger

408
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,200
and there's some slides there 
and I'll put the link in the 

409
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,300
show notes as well that sort of 
illustrate what this looks like.

410
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,300
Yeah, I would say that, you know
it, you can dive as deep as you 

411
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:10,600
want. 
If you really want to get the 

412
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:14,700
defense and the Really expected 
explanation of this protocol, I 

413
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,000
would refer you to the white 
paper which is on intellegent 

414
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000
org. 
But I'll try to give sort of a 

415
00:22:19,008 --> 00:22:21,500
very high level description 
based on what evidence already 

416
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,600
said. 
So, If I'm a connector and kind 

417
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,500
of keeping with that same 
example, everyone's to send 

418
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,800
money, I'm the first connector. 
I don't just want to put money 

419
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,400
on into escrow on some other 
Ledger until I know that Evans 

420
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,800
actually committed to this 
payment. 

421
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,300
So I'm waiting for him to put 
money in escrow first and that's

422
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,300
why the money that the escrow is
kind of going from left to right

423
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:44,500
and then the execution well the 
recipient is the one who 

424
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:47,000
generates that receipts. 
So clearly the receipt has to 

425
00:22:47,008 --> 00:22:50,600
come back from right to left and
so that's why you kind of see 

426
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,200
that like left-to-right 
preparation, right? 

427
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,200
Left execution, right? 
So Stefan has the connector, 

428
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,200
doesn't trust me as the sender, 
but he's not going to do 

429
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,800
anything. 
I ask until he sees money, but 

430
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:04,700
the thing he does trust, is 
there some Ledger that shared 

431
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:06,400
between us? 
Let's say that's the Bitcoin 

432
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,000
Ledger and so he trusts the 
Bitcoin Ledger, I trust the 

433
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,000
Bitcoin Ledger, if he sees that 
there's a transfer set up for 

434
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,900
with money on the Bitcoin Ledger
for him and that could be. 

435
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:19,000
We can get into exactly how that
would work. 

436
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,700
But there's money sitting there 
that's committed to this 

437
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:23,800
specific. 
Transaction. 

438
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Then he's like, okay, I don't 
trust Evan, but I do trust 

439
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,200
Bitcoin. 
And so I'm going to take that 

440
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,400
and I'm going to go and set up a
transfer corresponding transfer 

441
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:36,900
on a later ledger. 
So, and what I'm interested, as 

442
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:40,400
the connector is that the two 
conditions are the same because 

443
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,600
again, I trusted to Ledger's on 
either side of me. 

444
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,400
And so if the two conditions are
exactly the same, I know that 

445
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,500
whenever the right hand side 
transfer is going to be 

446
00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,600
fulfilled, I can take that 
fulfillment that signature and 

447
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,200
pass it on to the left hand side
Ledger. 

448
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:54,900
ER, and will be valid there as 
well. 

449
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,200
So in many ways, it's very 
similar to sort of the hash lock

450
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,800
Concept in lightning. 
If you're familiar with that and

451
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,100
one should probably add that, 
this is actually a really 

452
00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:11,800
brilliant cryptographic little 
neat little trick, right? 

453
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,700
Because it allows you to do 
these things. 

454
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:18,200
And I trust this way even though
those Ledger's may be very 

455
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,500
different and it's sort of, you 
know, simple Works universally 

456
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,400
and it's not, it's not very 
intuitive, right? 

457
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,300
It doesn't it doesn't make 
sense. 

458
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:30,400
I think if one just sort of 
explains why this will work 

459
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:32,300
Work. 
So I think to to kind of really 

460
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:36,900
understand it when needs to like
sort of really walk through it. 

461
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:39,200
Yeah. 
What you just mentioned the 

462
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,000
trust this point in one way to 
look at this is if Bitcoin and 

463
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,300
all of these cryptocurrencies 
have brought away so that you 

464
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:47,300
can make an individual Ledger 
trustless. 

465
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:51,100
What what inter Ledger does is 
make it so that you can try, you

466
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:53,700
don't have to trust a connector,
that's some party. 

467
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,400
That's relaying money between 
different Ledger's. 

468
00:24:57,900 --> 00:24:58,300
Right. 
Okay. 

469
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:00,900
So as long as your yeah, we 
because because you're within 

470
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,500
that payment network, if that 
pain that occur provides an 

471
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:07,900
escrow, then you trust that 
payment network, not exact 

472
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:08,900
connector. 
Okay. 

473
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,800
So, coming back on this idea of 
connectors, you've compared them

474
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,300
to relay nodes on, on the 
Internet Protocol. 

475
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:21,900
What would they be analogous to 
what? 

476
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,800
They'd be analogous to an ISP or
like an organization like level 

477
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,800
3? 
How can we compare our 

478
00:25:28,808 --> 00:25:32,700
connectors to existing internet 
infrastructure? 

479
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,700
Participants so there's one role
in the Internet Protocol. 

480
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:40,200
That's a very, very close analog
and that role used to be called 

481
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,200
the gateway today. 
We most most usually call it the

482
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,700
router and it's basically a 
system which is on two networks.

483
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,800
It's usually a lower level 
number of high-level Network or 

484
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,200
on the Tier 1 level, it sort of 
connecting to two isps networks 

485
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,000
together and it basically knows,
How to take a packet that's 

486
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,100
coming in on one network and 
figure out which of the other 

487
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:06,100
networks that it's connected to 
to, to forward it on. 

488
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,700
And so the the gateways and the 
routers are responsible for the 

489
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:11,000
routing. 
And one thing that's really 

490
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,900
powerful about that is that it 
means that the sender and the 

491
00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:16,200
recipient will receive are not 
responsible rounding. 

492
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,000
It means that the ledgers are 
the networks themselves. 

493
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,600
Are not responsible for the 
routing and at me keeps them all

494
00:26:21,608 --> 00:26:24,700
very simple. 
And so the the complexity within

495
00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:27,500
the internet protocols is very 
much sort of concentrated into 

496
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:32,500
Routers and even their like it's
concentrated in the largest 

497
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,300
routers, the routers that are 
actually used at the tier one 

498
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:38,900
providers and so your home 
router can also be pretty 

499
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,300
simple. 
And what that does is it means 

500
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,200
that the only people have to 
upgrade the protocol regularly 

501
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,500
for it to work. 
Well are people who are going to

502
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,600
have companies, they're going to
be very invested in it, they're 

503
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,000
going to be competing with each 
other to be on the latest 

504
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,800
version. 
And so it tends to be a thing 

505
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,000
that gets upgraded very easily. 
And so you can have your Or your

506
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,700
laptop, you can have your phone.
Stay pretty much the same and 

507
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:02,400
still benefit from these 
improvements. 

508
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:08,800
So, you would compared to sort 
of the Tier 1 internet routing, 

509
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,700
like, companies that do writing,
like, I don't know, like 

510
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:13,900
companies that do like level 3. 
For example, I'm not, I don't 

511
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,200
really remember all the names of
the companies, so, so they're 

512
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,000
not the only ones to do Rowdy, 
right? 

513
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,900
Like, they do routing on the 
large scale, but then you have a

514
00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:24,400
home router and you do routing 
on a small scale and you could 

515
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,300
make sort of a mesh router and 
routing a different way. 

516
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,600
That's really all all up to you.
You can create your own routing 

517
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,700
protocol if you want, but I 
think most of the complexity is 

518
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:37,600
concentrated among those larger,
I see. 

519
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,200
Okay, so you could have for 
instance, some lower-level 

520
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:48,200
connectors that maybe do like 
connecting sepa to PayPal and 

521
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,700
then you may have some smaller 
connectors that are connecting 

522
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,800
some obscure cryptocurrency to 
some other obscure 

523
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,700
cryptocurrency at some. 
And so, you have different 

524
00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:02,200
levels there and depending on 
how big the network is that 

525
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,300
you're trying to send payments 
to To you may stay on that lower

526
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:08,200
level Network, where there's a 
lot of traffic and a lot of 

527
00:28:08,208 --> 00:28:10,400
volume. 
But, you know, if you want to 

528
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,700
get into something like some 
little payment, survive service 

529
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,200
provider in China, for example, 
that you may have to go through 

530
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:22,000
some smaller connector router 
and find a route to it. 

531
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,100
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

532
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:25,500
So the connectors are like 
routers and just like there's 

533
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:30,000
various degrees of routers and 
various complexities same thing.

534
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,000
We expect to see with the 
connectors So what kind of 

535
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,900
companies are going to be 
running this like will we see 

536
00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:41,600
companies like Google, in the 
end running those big, the big 

537
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,300
more complex, routing things or 
isps or will this be a more of a

538
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:50,800
financial service thing? 
May banks will do that? 

539
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,400
Or is it more like in Bitcoin 
way sort of a independent 

540
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,600
entities that may be anonymous 
in some location? 

541
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,100
Like, what's that going to look 
like? 

542
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,900
It's A funny because it's kind 
of like the first person to 

543
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,400
discover is gold in California. 
Trying to imagine, like, who's 

544
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,900
going to be rich off of this? 
Well, whoever is there first, 

545
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:13,100
you know, like whoever can 
capitalize on that opportunity 

546
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:15,300
to quickest. 
So, it could be Banks because 

547
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,900
they already have some of the 
Regulatory and compliance of 

548
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,300
background to do this, but the 
kind of more slow-moving. 

549
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:25,100
So maybe it's more like payments
companies like venmo Square. 

550
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:29,600
Google Apple could be those guys
that could be Bitcoin, startups 

551
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,200
could be that Bitcoin exchanges 
are just the only ones that 

552
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:35,600
Adopt a protocol like this. 
And so they just grow to be, you

553
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,900
know, very large Network 
providers, whoever it is. 

554
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,600
We think it's a huge opportunity
and so it's just a matter of 

555
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,200
like, who's going to be there 
first. 

556
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,700
And speaking of exchanges, you 
know, if at some point Enter 

557
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:53,000
Ledger becomes like as big as 
the internet and like 

558
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,900
everybody's using enter Ledger 
all payment platforms and 

559
00:29:56,900 --> 00:30:00,300
payment service providers have 
integrated all the conditions to

560
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:04,200
be fully supported and we just 
have this network of payments 

561
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,100
between different types of 
ledgers. 

562
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:12,900
What does that mean for you know
things like exchanges that 

563
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,700
traditionally Serve that role or
even the stock market. 

564
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:21,400
Like if I can just send money to
myself from one payment Network 

565
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,300
to another than doesn't that 
whole infrastructure of, you 

566
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:30,400
know, third-party exchanges, 
sort of crumble. 

567
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,800
So I think that that exchanges 
are essentially connectors, 

568
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,100
right? 
They are connected to more than 

569
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,800
one ledger so we could be a 
Bitcoin Ledger and sepa, and 

570
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,600
they provide liquidity between 
those two Ledger's and and their

571
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,700
customers provide liquidity. 
Between those two letters. 

572
00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:49,100
And so one of the primary models
that we see the connectors could

573
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:53,500
work is by being exchanges by 
having people trading and then 

574
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:56,200
using some of that equality to 
facilitate payments. 

575
00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:01,500
So what will be different then 
in a world where those exchanges

576
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:07,100
are talking to their customers 
to inter lodger rather than what

577
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,100
we have now? 
So if you just want to compare 

578
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:13,500
exchanges today with with how 
connectors work and enter, 

579
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,800
Ledger's primarily I think the 
difference would be the degree 

580
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,100
of automation. 
So if I want to use an exchange 

581
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:24,400
today, I actually need to go on 
one network and like manually 

582
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,300
type in a bunch of things in 
order to send a payment. 

583
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:31,200
Them and they may have maybe 
have custom instructions to say,

584
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,100
you know, include this 
transaction ID or send to this 

585
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:37,600
Bitcoin address or something 
like that. 

586
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,700
They have custom instructions to
be able to correlate, an 

587
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:44,300
incoming transfer from me to 
that, but I need to go and 

588
00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:48,400
actually type that in myself and
then they will go and we'll have

589
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,800
some process for doing that. 
On the other Ledger, what info 

590
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,700
Ledger does is standardizes that
way of doing it so that you can 

591
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,900
automate more of this so that 
you could see even See it as 

592
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,500
like a standardized protocol 
between exchanges so that I can 

593
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,300
talk to each of my exchanges on 
different networks in the same 

594
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:09,000
way which just makes it a lot 
easier to route a lot more 

595
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,200
payments through them. 
And so, one way you could see it

596
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,100
is that exchanges, we need to be
very competitive because they 

597
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:19,400
could having a standardized 
protocol in some ways, makes 

598
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,300
them more interchangeable, but 
what the way I would look at it 

599
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:24,900
is that you also make it a lot 
more useful. 

600
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:29,700
Because if I could, you know, If
I can pay with Bitcoin really 

601
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:35,300
for anything and not just to 
people who accept Bitcoin, then 

602
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,500
I'm purely competing and Bitcoin
is really competing on the 

603
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:43,100
strength of it as at self as a 
ledger as opposed to needing to 

604
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:44,800
go and get all the network 
effects of getting. 

605
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,700
Lots of people to accept it and 
and use it for everything and so

606
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:51,900
you could have exchanges and 
Ledger's be both more 

607
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:56,200
competitive but also be used for
a lot more because it if you can

608
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,300
automate things, it makes it a 
lot. 

609
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,100
Lot easier to wrap payments to 
them. 

610
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,400
I want to stay on that point 
really quick because it's an 

611
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,700
extremely important Point. 
Like, you think of the internet 

612
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:07,600
as this extremely frictionless 
system that you don't really 

613
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,800
have to worry about it. 
Like I don't worry which which 

614
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,300
path my messages take because it
pretty much works and one of the

615
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:18,100
reasons for that isn't 
necessarily that it the 

616
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:20,300
protocols are so amazing or so 
special. 

617
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:22,900
But because of the competitive 
environment that the internet 

618
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,000
creates, if I'm a network that 
drops, a bunch of packets all 

619
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,500
the time, people are not going 
to Up here with me and it will 

620
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:32,400
automatically find the routes 
that are the best. 

621
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,900
And so for compared to the 
financial Network like today if 

622
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,400
I want to get money from Bitcoin
Litecoin and someone wants to 

623
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,900
provide that service, they have 
to actually have a brand, I have

624
00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:44,600
to kind of trust them a little 
bit and I have to figure out 

625
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,000
that they exist, I have to find 
them. 

626
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,400
So we have to be marketing 
branding, all these things. 

627
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,100
And so there are companies out 
there already that are 

628
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,000
connectors, this shaped of 
connecting different 

629
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,100
cryptocurrencies, there's 
companies that are connecting, 

630
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,800
let's say, PayPal to and pay son
and you can Them. 

631
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:01,200
So, they are out there, but they
have to have all this overhead 

632
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,500
of being a branded. 
And having customer service all 

633
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,900
that kind of stuff, where's 
really? 

634
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,600
It should be automated and it 
should be something that that is

635
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,199
just competitive. 
So if I can offer a better rate,

636
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,400
I should be able to just put 
that in the system and have 

637
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,900
traffic go through me 
immediately. 

638
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:19,600
Right. 
So before you mention that, this

639
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,000
was a big opportunity to become 
such a connector, I mean, if 

640
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,699
there's no Grand involved, 
really if it's a, so, isn't this

641
00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:34,100
just kind of like a race to the 
bottom and we'll be done at cost

642
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:36,199
or why do you think there's such
an opportunity here? 

643
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,199
So there are in the internet 
again. 

644
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaking speaking, from that 
model, if you are the best 

645
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,000
connector you will grow. 
And once you have economies of 

646
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,100
scale, you will be permanently 
cheaper than your Editor. 

647
00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:50,900
So I mean it's not the kind of 
opportunity like being a 

648
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:54,300
correspondent bank today where 
you literally can you know, have

649
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,800
a cost basis of one or two basis
points and charge people 20. 

650
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:00,600
I don't think that'll be like 
that because there's too much 

651
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,900
competition for that but you can
definitely capture the margin of

652
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:08,300
the economies of scale. 
And so if you get to be very 

653
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:09,900
large, you can make a lot of 
money with that. 

654
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:13,000
The other thing I really want to
highlight though is if you 

655
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,800
compare this to the development 
of the internet and looked at 

656
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,600
just this Scope the scale of how
many for example, payments are 

657
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,200
being sent. 
Today, we very much expect that 

658
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,100
the volume of payments sent will
explode in the similar way, to 

659
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,900
how much information is being 
sent exploded on the internet 

660
00:35:28,900 --> 00:35:33,400
because if you can dramatically 
reduce the cost of sending an 

661
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,500
individual message to the point 
where you don't really think 

662
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,800
about it and then if you have 
that interoperability so that 

663
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,300
you also don't have to think 
about. 

664
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,300
Like if I want to send you 
money, today we have this whole 

665
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:47,100
negotiation about, you know, do 
you have the same You have a 

666
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:49,100
pallet - have PayPal you accept 
Bitcoin. 

667
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,300
Are you don't accept Bitcoin 
then now and like we have this 

668
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:55,400
whole manual negotiation, which 
just means, we don't use. 

669
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,400
We don't use it a lot. 
I think the statistic is like, 

670
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,000
people in the u.s. spend 2.1 
payments per day. 

671
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:06,200
I have no idea how many packets.
I'm I'm sending across the 

672
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,700
internet today because I don't 
care if it doesn't it, you know,

673
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:12,200
I'm thinking on a different 
scale. 

674
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200
I'm thinking about my cell 
phone's data plan, which is like

675
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,100
huge numbers of Packets. 
And so this fully expect that to

676
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:22,000
happen with payments as well 
because if you can automate all 

677
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,800
of this and then stop thinking 
about it where, you know, I'm 

678
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,700
just going to build payments. 
This other thing that I'm doing 

679
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:30,500
where you never would have 
thought of doing that before 

680
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:33,600
because you have to do sign ups,
you have to do all of this kind 

681
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,100
of overhead. 
It wouldn't be worth it to build

682
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:37,700
payments into all the, all of 
these things. 

683
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,700
But if you get that 
interoperability right, then you

684
00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:42,100
can build payments into a lot 
more stuff. 

685
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:46,300
So, we fully expect the volume 
to just explode with something 

686
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:49,000
like this. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

687
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,100
I totally see that. 
So this thing you mentioned 

688
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:54,200
economies of scale regarding 
connectors is there some kind of

689
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,800
centralization risk here that 
you say like, well that gives 

690
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,700
you undue power to those 
entities if they become massive.

691
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,100
Yeah, so I mean we obviously get
that question a lot. 

692
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,700
And so, having been in the 
quote-unquote, the 

693
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:13,700
centralization industry for 
almost six years now, it's given

694
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:17,800
me a lot of time to think about 
that and thinking back and At 

695
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:20,900
what the sensation, the 
centralization really means is, 

696
00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:24,700
it means that you have the 
choice, you have the ability to 

697
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,500
go with whatever provider gives 
you the best option. 

698
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:30,600
It's almost like more about 
competitiveness than it is about

699
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,600
what the actual physical 
topology is. 

700
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,600
So think about something like 
something like Bitcoin, Bitcoin 

701
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,800
isn't centralized just because 
there is a there's one network 

702
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,500
Bitcoin. 
This is a decentralized network 

703
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:47,500
underneath and so the reason for
that is because anyone can I'm a

704
00:37:47,508 --> 00:37:49,800
minor. 
And so, for something like inter

705
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,200
Ledger, if anyone can become a 
connector, then even if the 

706
00:37:53,207 --> 00:37:55,500
connector is very large, it 
doesn't mean that they have this

707
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:57,900
power over you. 
It's not like Facebook where, if

708
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:00,800
I, if I leave all my, my 
contacts are gone, right? 

709
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:03,100
If I switch to different 
connector, I just get the new 

710
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:05,500
rate and that's it. 
And so, if anyone out there can 

711
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:08,500
offer better rate, they can 
become the new new big connector

712
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,000
that really puts a check on, on 
even a monopolist. 

713
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,900
Like you can have it in 
competition. 

714
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:16,600
Really doesn't matter how many 
players you have, only how hard 

715
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,500
it would become. 
It would be for someone else to 

716
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:22,000
enter the market and undercut 
them, it's actually a good 

717
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,300
thing. 
If you have some very large 

718
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,900
players that are able to take 
advantage of economies of scale 

719
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:30,900
just as long as they don't 
become able to keep other people

720
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:33,800
out of the market. 
Yeah I know that make sense are 

721
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,100
there some other attack vectors?
Like could, could they abuse 

722
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:40,100
connectors and pews abuse their 
position in some other way? 

723
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,700
And potentially, you know, steal
money from people? 

724
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,100
I mean so that the protocol kind
of keeps keeps A from, from the 

725
00:38:48,107 --> 00:38:51,100
connector pretty much like, as 
we mentioned, there's escrow 

726
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,100
connect to can't really steal 
anything. 

727
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,400
There's certainly the ability 
for people to do s each other. 

728
00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:58,400
One of the things that's 
actually kind of interesting 

729
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,600
about intelligent is that it's 
both a way to send payments, but

730
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,000
we also can use into ledger to 
prevent the US attacks against 

731
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,300
inter Ledger, right. 
You can actually make certain 

732
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:13,600
requests that are expensive to 
process cost something and so 

733
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,000
that's that's that's true for 
any kind of distributed system 

734
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,700
that you can use incentives to 
solve a lot of these type of 

735
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:22,500
attack vectors. 
So I mean I can't predict the 

736
00:39:22,508 --> 00:39:25,700
future but certainly if I play 
it out in my head I can't think 

737
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:28,800
of any way that a very large 
connector would be able to just 

738
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,000
outright Sable the competition 
because it is just a protocol 

739
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,300
because I can set up a path, 
however, I want. 

740
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,900
So it soon as someone misbehaves
to a certain extent, it'll be 

741
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,600
worth it for people to, to make 
sure they route around them. 

742
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,800
I want to just highlight what 
that point that you made because

743
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,900
I think it's a really cool one 
that When you talk about denial 

744
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:49,900
of service attacks today, 
there's a lot of different ways 

745
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,400
that people address 
denial-of-service attacks but 

746
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:56,700
fundamentally where the problem 
arguably comes from is that when

747
00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:59,600
you make a request to a server 
you're asking it to do some work

748
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,400
for you but you're not giving it
anything and in exchange and so 

749
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,600
the servers have to try really 
hard to figure out who's doing 

750
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,200
it legitimately and who's not. 
But with if you could just send 

751
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,300
these little tiny payments in 
this gets back to what I was 

752
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:16,500
saying about. 
I think the Volume of payments 

753
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:18,700
will explode. 
It's like if you just made some 

754
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:23,800
very, very tiny payment to every
server that you talk to in the 

755
00:40:23,808 --> 00:40:28,500
world, it would be a completely 
negligible cost to you but that 

756
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:30,600
would completely cut out denial 
of service attacks. 

757
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,700
Not only in so we can we can 
talk about that in a general 

758
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:35,700
sense. 
If I'm operating some service 

759
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:39,400
with an API service, I could use
into Ledger along with that to 

760
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,000
cut down on denial service. 
What's the fun was saying is 

761
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,300
that we can also use that very 
feature within enter ledger to 

762
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:46,800
cut down. 
Down on denial-of-service 

763
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,200
attacks against inter Ledger 
itself because after all the 

764
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,000
connectors and things are just 
servants are just internet 

765
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:58,600
internet services that are 
similar to other ones and just 

766
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,600
just add that. 
And so we're going on for a long

767
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,700
time but it's something that's 
very exciting for us. 

768
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:07,400
Is a lot of distributed systems 
have these incentive problems 

769
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,400
and so a lot of the people come 
to us at looking for Solutions. 

770
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,700
Our people are working on mesh 
networks, on distributed file. 

771
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:18,700
And that kind of stuff where 
they're trying to figure out how

772
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:22,400
to, you know, pay for the 
utility people. 

773
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,800
Add to the system in a 
decentralized way and I think 

774
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,800
intelligence is a great solution
for those types of protocols. 

775
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,200
And so, I'm excited about what 
intelligent can do for the 

776
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,500
decentralized future. 
Where, you know, I've almost 

777
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:37,500
gotten a little bit, you know, 
disillusioned with this idea of 

778
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,100
like, okay, we're going to have 
this like decentralized Ledger, 

779
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,700
really huge Ledger, but there's 
still going to be some people 

780
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,100
kind of control that the kind of
setting the rules if they're 

781
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:47,400
kind of defining. 
In the protocol but insulin 

782
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:48,700
should really lets you get away 
from that. 

783
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,600
And so it allows you to build 
decentralized systems that are I

784
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,700
guess more the centralized or 
decentralized in a more real 

785
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:56,800
sense, right? 
Because there's no, not even a 

786
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,800
group of developers that kind of
controls the whole thing. 

787
00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:06,800
Yeah, it's decentralized it, 
it's I would call it the 

788
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,300
centralized but I would call it 
distributed and having more 

789
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,600
freedom to choose. 
I guess, whereas, with something

790
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,900
like Bitcoin, you're sort of 
stuck with one system, you 

791
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:26,600
mentioned economic incentives, 
coming to sort of, you know, 

792
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,900
this is very interesting. 
And, you know, theoretically, 

793
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:34,600
it's very will and and but if 
you know, somewhere down the 

794
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,600
line, we expect companies to 
start using inter Ledger and 

795
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:43,900
making their Ledger's 
cryptographically So enter 

796
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,200
integrated cryptographic escrow 
into their services. 

797
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,200
What is the incentive for a 
company like PayPal where, you 

798
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,600
know, their interest is to have 
as many users as possible and to

799
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,500
be using their service. 
If you're creating really easy 

800
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:03,100
avenues for interoperability and
for in perhaps you know using 

801
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:04,500
other services that might be 
better. 

802
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:09,700
What is the incentive there to, 
you know for parent companies to

803
00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:12,300
Come around this protocol. 
Yeah. 

804
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,300
So that's actually kind of an 
interesting question that I was 

805
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:17,900
struggling with this well and I 
kind of looked at the history of

806
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:19,400
the internet for some 
inspiration. 

807
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,600
And when you think about the 
history of especially the web 

808
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,900
where you kind of had this 
transition from the days of the 

809
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,000
online service providers, to 
online services networks, where 

810
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:34,600
you had AOL CompuServe Cheney, 
which were all sort of closed 

811
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,400
networks. 
And they were competing on the 

812
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,200
number of services that were on 
each Network just like PayPal. 

813
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,900
Repeating on the number of users
and Merchants that are on their 

814
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,400
on their Ledger. 
And so what happened? 

815
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,700
Was that some of the smaller 
guys not necessarily the number 

816
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:52,300
one, number two, but maybe the 
number three, four and five saw 

817
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:55,800
the interoperability that the 
web provided as a way to expand 

818
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,100
the services that they could 
offer at the if we expand the 

819
00:43:58,107 --> 00:44:00,700
content that you could get 
through their Network and so 

820
00:44:01,100 --> 00:44:03,800
that gives them a way to compete
with some of the larger ones on 

821
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:06,900
the reach and it eventually it 
gets to a point where this sort 

822
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:09,900
of open protocol has enough 
content on it that if you're not

823
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:11,900
on it. 
It's a pretty, major omission 

824
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,300
and so if you're one of the 
largest guys to start, getting 

825
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:16,900
that request from your customers
saying like why aren't you on 

826
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:18,300
that? 
I, you know, like this is the 

827
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:20,700
biggest set of content out 
there. 

828
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:22,400
Why can't I access that through 
AOL? 

829
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,700
That's crazy. 
And so AOL the way that they 

830
00:44:24,707 --> 00:44:27,500
responded to that was the 
eventually added that support 

831
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,800
and they thought about it as 
well, we're going to connect to 

832
00:44:30,808 --> 00:44:33,900
that, but we're still going to 
have all the extra AOL services 

833
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:36,100
and people going to Value those 
x-ray of all services. 

834
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:37,800
And so, they are going to stay 
on a well. 

835
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:41,200
But what happened long-term was 
was Is the internet. 

836
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,800
Just became like one Global 
Market. 

837
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,700
And so, the most successful 
companies were the ones that 

838
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,200
stop worrying about the size of 
their Network and stop worrying 

839
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,400
about the added value that they 
could provide, and rather just 

840
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,900
try to be as efficient as 
possible. 

841
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,200
Try to provide the best customer
access to this to the internet 

842
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,900
itself. 
That's real interesting. 

843
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:04,600
I really love these internet and
allergies with with enter larger

844
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:09,800
because I think the they really 
tie into how networks develop. 

845
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,900
So tell us what, where's the, 
where's the project at? 

846
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:15,600
Right now what have you 
accomplished? 

847
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,800
Maybe talk about some of the 
efforts going on with the w3c to

848
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,100
try to bring this as some sort 
of standard level dry. 

849
00:45:24,100 --> 00:45:29,500
So we came out with the white 
paper last Oh, brr, so that's 

850
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:31,200
available on into Ledger dot 
org. 

851
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,200
That's kind of the technical 
defensive it we've been working 

852
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,000
on, putting out more 
documentation, things like that.

853
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,500
We have the there's an open 
source reference implementation,

854
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,100
that's under heavy development. 
That you can find that on GitHub

855
00:45:44,100 --> 00:45:49,100
github.com into Ledger and then 
a lot of the develop kind of 

856
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,800
core development is going on. 
There's at the the w3c is the 

857
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:56,100
web is one of the web standards 
organizations and we have a 

858
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,000
community group there that's 
focused on Agent. 

859
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,300
So that's where a lot of the 
discussions and Technical 

860
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:06,100
development is happening. 
So you can, if you're interested

861
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,900
in tracking the progress you can
find us on. 

862
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:12,400
We have unintelligible dot-org. 
It says a bunch of different 

863
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,400
ways you can find us. 
There's mailing list, IRC, 

864
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,600
things like that. 
But the Main Avenue is to join 

865
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,300
the community group. 
That's where a lot of the 

866
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,400
development is happening. 
And what's? 

867
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,500
What kind of remains to be done?
Like what, where do you see 

868
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:30,500
intellectual at year from now? 
Two year for two years from now?

869
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:32,900
Like how long do you think this 
is the option is going to take 

870
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:37,100
and how does it have to happen? 
so I would say the the first 

871
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:41,400
thing the most low level thing 
that we had to achieve was the 

872
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:45,500
prettiest specification for how 
Ledger's Express and validate 

873
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:50,400
the escrow the reason why that's
the most fundamental thing is 

874
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,400
because all the ledgers have to 
validate the escrow in the same 

875
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,600
way for going back to that 
example, where I'm a connector, 

876
00:46:55,900 --> 00:46:58,400
if the Ledger on the left of me,
let's say Bitcoin Village on the

877
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,000
right of me validate different 
types, of cryptographic 

878
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,500
conditions of escrow conditions,
then When I can't, I can't 

879
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:09,800
possibly take a payment between 
them and so, it's really key 

880
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,800
that those cryptographic 
conditions are as standardized 

881
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,900
now. 
Obviously there are 

882
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:18,200
cryptographic standards already 
so for example Bitcoin or in 

883
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,400
implements sha-256. 
So one thing that we did was 

884
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,400
just sort of adopt some of the 
standards that are already most 

885
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,300
widely used so that as many 
existing ledgers as possible 

886
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:29,600
including Bitcoin was other 
cryptocurrencies. 

887
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,900
And ripple, of course all 
already support. 

888
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:35,000
Intellectual as is without any 
changes. 

889
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,500
The next thing though was to 
sort of plan for the future and 

890
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:42,500
we wanted, for example to have 
distributed systems, 

891
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:46,700
decentralized systems, be able 
to sign things that then trigger

892
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:49,300
intelligent payments. 
And so for that, we needed the 

893
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:53,900
ability to express signatures 
with multiple signers, standard 

894
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:56,200
multisig. 
And so we kind of came up with a

895
00:47:56,207 --> 00:47:58,100
spec for that. 
So that's the first part. 

896
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:03,900
The second part was to work on 
routing and so, the conditions 

897
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:07,100
being pretty much Final, I think
that we're still looking for 

898
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:10,800
input, of course, but we have a 
working spec for that. 

899
00:48:10,900 --> 00:48:15,000
The second part being routing. 
So we need to figure out how the

900
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,900
routing tables at the 
connectors, actually get 

901
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:19,100
populated. 
And so that's the thing that 

902
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:20,600
were most actively working on 
right now. 

903
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,000
We just added it to a reference 
implementation, the way that we 

904
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,100
think it should work initially. 
Obviously, that's going to be 

905
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,600
something that's gonna be a lot 
of innovation over decades, I 

906
00:48:29,607 --> 00:48:33,700
think on this, but we have a 
working sort of model right now,

907
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:36,500
so you can take the Friends 
information today and make 

908
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,800
payments if you use descriptive 
conditions and use that routing.

909
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,500
And so the next part for us is 
kind of to make a lot more easy 

910
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:46,500
interfaces and kind of clients 
and other things that make it 

911
00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:50,100
easy for people to use the 
system as well as make it easier

912
00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:53,500
to run some of scalable Ledger 
scalable connectors and so on, 

913
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,900
we might ought to a lot of 
optimization kind of trying to 

914
00:48:55,908 --> 00:49:00,800
make it faster, trying to reduce
the latency of payments but 

915
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,300
really the two key pieces were 
the conditions in the routing. 

916
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:06,500
We're just getting to a point. 
Now we're both of those are 

917
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,000
starting to stabilize a little 
bit. 

918
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:09,700
Yeah. 
So the point that it's at is 

919
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:13,900
that if people are interested in
trying it out you can go and 

920
00:49:13,900 --> 00:49:15,300
look at the code and download 
it. 

921
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:17,600
We have it. 
There's a demo that that kind of

922
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,700
shows off a lot of this 
functionality that's all working

923
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:24,000
and and there there are some of 
the internal details that are 

924
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,400
still being worked on. 
But as defined was explaining 

925
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,600
before, one of the goals with 
this project is to make it so 

926
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,100
that the interface to using 
inter Ledger can stay the same. 

927
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:39,100
And the internals of it can keep
getting better and better over 

928
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:41,000
time. 
So we're trying to make it as 

929
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,600
easy as possible for developers 
who I kind of think of it as 

930
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,000
there's two classes of 
developers that might be 

931
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,800
interested in this one may be 
really interested in the 

932
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,900
technical details and 
understanding the routing 

933
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:55,100
protocols and everything about 
how this works internally. 

934
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:58,500
And so for that kind of person I
would say to get involved in the

935
00:49:58,508 --> 00:50:01,900
community group to read the 
white paper. 

936
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,100
Look at some of the routing 
docks that are going to be 

937
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:07,700
coming out shortly. 
And really dive into that and 

938
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:10,300
definitely looking for people 
who are interested in that I 

939
00:50:10,308 --> 00:50:14,400
would say there's another group 
of people who don't care how all

940
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,600
this works internally. 
They just basically just want to

941
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,900
use payments in their other 
thing that they're building and 

942
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:23,600
so for that audience, we're 
trying to have really good 

943
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,100
documentation and very simple 
interfaces to use this so that 

944
00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:30,100
you don't have to understand all
of the details of how this works

945
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,000
similar to how I don't 
understand all of the details 

946
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,100
about how the internet works, 
but I can still use That and 

947
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:38,600
even if the internet Protocols 
are in for the routing, 

948
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,200
protocols and whatnot are being 
constantly upgraded, I'm still, 

949
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,300
I still just have basically the 
same interface to use use the 

950
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:48,500
internet. 
So just to boil that all down 

951
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:50,400
for someone who's watching kind 
of thinking about. 

952
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,800
Okay? 
How do I get involved in this? 

953
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:54,800
The best thing right now is to 
go to intellectual dot org and 

954
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,600
go to the w3c community group 
and join that and sort of start 

955
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,000
participating on the mailing 
list and IRC Channel. 

956
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:04,200
And then we are very aware that 
our website is severely lacking 

957
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,900
right now so we are working on 
On a better one. 

958
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,600
The kind of brings all the 
different documentation that we 

959
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,200
have and all different specs and
everything into one place by. 

960
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,100
Now, that stuff is kind of all 
spread all over the place. 

961
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:16,100
So expect a better website in 
the next couple weeks. 

962
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:24,100
Next, couple months today's 
magic word is Bell's bella0021 

963
00:51:25,500 --> 00:51:29,200
less stock, Bitcoin.com to sign 
in enter the magic word and 

964
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,900
claim your part of the listener 
award. 

965
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:41,100
So, just one last question, on 
on this thing here. 

966
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:45,000
Like, what is the adopt? 
Is there any adoption happening 

967
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,900
in terms of like businesses or 
Banks or maybe payments 

968
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:54,600
companies or like working with 
you guys on integrating that and

969
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,500
you have plans on sort of 
actively trying to get this 

970
00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:01,200
adopted? 
Yeah. 

971
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,600
So right now what we're mostly 
interested in is like people can

972
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,800
help us figure out About the 
technology rights to individual 

973
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,100
developers. 
Individual contributors who 

974
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:12,700
either have some background with
designing protocols or simply 

975
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:15,400
just have the free time to Decay
to a project like this, which is

976
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,100
already. 
You know, a lot of people aren't

977
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,700
that lucky, you know. 
So I think the right now we have

978
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,800
a number of contributors some 
coming more from a community 

979
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,600
background. 
So for example, there's that 

980
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,600
somebody who's been working on 
mesh networks and sort of 

981
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,400
looking at intelligent for that,
there's someone who works for 

982
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,000
well-known payment startup and 
he's kind of providing Some 

983
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,500
input on the protocol, he's 
worked on, I think TLS before. 

984
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:40,800
So yes some background in that 
and that's based on 

985
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,300
cryptography. 
And so on, there's a scribe the 

986
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:48,400
guys behind Big Chain DB who've 
been very very involved and kind

987
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,200
of helping us every step of the 
way they have one of the most 

988
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,500
scalable Ledger's. 
And so they have an interest in 

989
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:56,100
interoperability because you 
know it's going to make their 

990
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:58,300
Ledger look really good compared
to all the other ones. 

991
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:00,800
You know. 
Whoever has the best Ledger's 

992
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,000
has the most interest in 
interoperability I think and so 

993
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,100
yeah they've been some. 
Lee contributors. 

994
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,200
We're definitely eager to grow 
that. 

995
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,100
Now that we've had a little bit 
more to show, it's always a 

996
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,000
little bit hard to, you know, 
advertise too much when you're 

997
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,200
still just writing the initial 
specs and still just writing 

998
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,000
digital stuff down. 
But yeah, we're at the point 

999
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,300
where we're hoping that more 
people will get interested. 

1000
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:25,700
So we fled before we talk about 
Ripple and wrap up. 

1001
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:29,700
So Evan, you brought opted to 
use case of micro payments. 

1002
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,500
He mentioned it a few times. 
Like why is that such a good fit

1003
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:35,000
with intellectual and like, why 
is that going to be so 

1004
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,200
important? 
Yeah. 

1005
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,800
So right now, there's a lot of 
different people are talking 

1006
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:44,000
about micro payments and won't 
one of the I think the drawbacks

1007
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,500
with a lot of the a lot of the 
non integer solutions for micro 

1008
00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:52,200
payments is that in the same way
with regular payments, if you I 

1009
00:53:52,207 --> 00:53:56,300
have to, for example, one 
currency or one Ledger, you have

1010
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:59,700
the limitation of you need to 
get everybody to use your one 

1011
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:03,500
Ledger and we've already talked 
about the reasons why we think 

1012
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:06,200
it's more powerful, if you have 
interoperability between these 

1013
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,700
and it's more interchangeable. 
And so, when talking about 

1014
00:54:10,700 --> 00:54:14,600
micropayment, use cases, if you 
had a system that had all of the

1015
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,700
benefits that people talk about 
of micro payments, but let made 

1016
00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:21,100
it so that I can accept dollars 
and you can pay with Bitcoins or

1017
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:23,400
whatever combination. 
Nation of those things, that's 

1018
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,100
much more powerful than having 
to go and sign up for a thing, a

1019
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:29,200
different thing than what you 
already have. 

1020
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:31,500
So that's one of the reasons I 
think it's a really good use 

1021
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:36,800
case for it, as well as because 
enter legit, because there's no 

1022
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:42,100
network and there's no 
scalability problems to enter 

1023
00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:45,400
Ledger because it's not a thing 
in and of itself, it's just a 

1024
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,000
protocol between different 
networks. 

1025
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,000
You could use enter Ledger for 
an unlimited number of micro 

1026
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,900
payments which was one of the 
Big issues to address with micro

1027
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:55,500
payments. 
And obviously, you need the 

1028
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:58,900
ledgers to support that, but if 
you have say dedicated, 

1029
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:02,600
micropayment Ledger's that are 
really, really scalable and can 

1030
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,600
can handle that kind of volume 
then it becomes a non-issue to 

1031
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,500
send lots and lots of micro 
payments through and actually I 

1032
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:13,000
have one more thing to that 
which is a lot of people talk 

1033
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,100
about including micro payments 
in other standards. 

1034
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:19,300
And so that's everything from 
talking about HTTP micro 

1035
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:22,000
payments to a project that I've 
been working. 

1036
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:25,100
Working on recently as trying to
include micro payments in 

1037
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:31,400
Torrance and what I would say is
that if your micro payment 

1038
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,600
solution is tied to one specific
currency or one specific Ledger,

1039
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,900
you're going to run into a 
problem because you run into 

1040
00:55:37,900 --> 00:55:41,100
that same issue of you come and 
say, oh I have the, you know, 

1041
00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:44,200
the best micropayment solution 
and you have to use PayPal. 

1042
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,500
And then someone else is like, 
no, no, no. 

1043
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:48,600
I have the best micro payment 
solution, and but you have to 

1044
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:52,300
use Bitcoin and everybody will 
cut your end up with a Some 

1045
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:54,600
different systems like that. 
Again, you have no 

1046
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,200
interoperability between them 
and your kind of suck. 

1047
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,800
Because the way that standards 
work is that you in order to 

1048
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,600
build something like payments 
into other standards, whether 

1049
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,600
it's BitTorrent or HTTP or other
things, it has to be truly 

1050
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,900
neutral where there's no party 
that gains from using that and 

1051
00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:16,300
so you can't tie it to a 
specific thing and so I think 

1052
00:56:16,300 --> 00:56:18,300
it's much more powerful if 
you're interested in micro 

1053
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:21,400
payments to think about what you
could do with something like 

1054
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,900
enter Ledger. 
ER where you can express 

1055
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:29,400
payments in a generic way that 
can use any underlying ledger to

1056
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,400
carry them out. 
So that's why we talk about 

1057
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,500
micro payments. 
So, you guys are doing all this 

1058
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:39,400
work on inter Ledger, you know, 
as as part of your job, a 

1059
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,700
triple, why is Ripple investing 
so much in this Vise is such an 

1060
00:56:43,700 --> 00:56:46,800
important project for ripple of 
Ripple apps? 

1061
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,000
Yeah. 
So so Ripple, we are now 125 

1062
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:57,000
people about four or five of, 
those are working on into Ledger

1063
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,400
and just to put things in 
perspective. 

1064
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,200
And the reason we do that is 
because intelligence used to 

1065
00:57:02,207 --> 00:57:06,300
purple Zone It's kind of like 
how you know a company that 

1066
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:08,600
that's using a database 
internally might open source 

1067
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,400
that database the way that we've
open sourced, triple D, you know

1068
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,900
it's kind of something that is 
very foundational and we built a

1069
00:57:15,908 --> 00:57:19,400
lot of, you know, value-added 
proprietary stuff on top of 

1070
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,700
that. 
But we with interoperability is 

1071
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:24,800
kind of pointless to keep that 
in house, you know? 

1072
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,100
Like what's the point of having 
hdp if you're going to make a 

1073
00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:30,600
closed source. 
So for us it's just a way of 

1074
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:35,100
Open Source open sourcing that 
protocol and Also, it helps us a

1075
00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:38,400
little bit in terms of, you 
know, why should Banks upgrade? 

1076
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,200
Why should Banks upgrade their 
infrastructure? 

1077
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,800
And a lot of especially the 
largest banks are pretty 

1078
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,900
comfortable right now because 
the system sucks for their 

1079
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:48,100
customers, but their customers 
have no other alternative. 

1080
00:57:48,100 --> 00:57:51,200
And so the way that I described 
earlier, you know, intelligent 

1081
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,500
makes it so that if someone has 
a better path that the even goes

1082
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:57,400
around some of the big hubs of 
liquidity and is a little bit, 

1083
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,700
cheaper intellectual be able to 
take off the bench of those 

1084
00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:01,700
paths. 
So it basically gives the 

1085
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:06,000
smaller players Way to make 
their systems more interoperable

1086
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,900
and different, make themselves 
more efficient, as an 

1087
00:58:08,900 --> 00:58:11,000
alternative to some of the big 
hubs that are out there. 

1088
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,100
And that of course, makes the 
big hubs one to upgrade, and 

1089
00:58:14,100 --> 00:58:16,100
that's where we're Ripple 
provides products. 

1090
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:18,800
And so, it also creates a little
bit more demand for our 

1091
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,400
solution. 
So also at that Inn in general, 

1092
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,400
ripples Vision has always been 
talking about the internet of 

1093
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,000
value concept, where it says 
easy to move money as 

1094
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,100
information and connecting lots 
of different currencies. 

1095
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:33,800
And previously, the setup has 
been focused on Tan, the Ripple 

1096
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,900
consensus Ledger. 
But, you know, we've discussed 

1097
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:39,100
endlessly now the problems with 
trying to attract everyone to 

1098
00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:42,400
one Ledger and so the vision of 
ripple from the beginning was to

1099
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:46,800
create this internet of value. 
And we think this is a really 

1100
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,600
good way of doing this, as well 
as there's also, lots of 

1101
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,000
interesting use cases outside of
the ones that Ripple as a 

1102
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,400
company are, are interested in 
that are more focused on Bank 

1103
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:00,700
Banks using this. 
So we want to get a lots of 

1104
00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:04,000
other people who have other use 
cases that Interested in to use 

1105
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,600
this as well. 
I want to quickly mention 

1106
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,900
something that you brought up 
the Ripple consensus Ledger and 

1107
00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:11,400
I'm sure there's a lot of people
out there that sort of have a 

1108
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,900
question like What Becomes of 
that? 

1109
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:15,600
What's the future of this 
lecture with the future effects 

1110
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,800
are P. 
So we think that that that 

1111
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,300
that's Ledger is going to 
continue to be the The Ledger 

1112
00:59:21,300 --> 00:59:26,600
for xrp and we believe that xrp 
will be an attractive currency 

1113
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,000
that to use as a bridge 
currency. 

1114
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,900
So, whenever you're going 
through a multi currency 

1115
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:36,400
transaction, a Currency exchange
because it's very inefficient to

1116
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,400
create markets between all 
possible pairs that tend to be 

1117
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,500
Bridge currencies, that emerge. 
And so Ripple, you know, we'll 

1118
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:47,800
try our best to position X RP as
as a bridge currency, not the 

1119
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,800
only one, of course, but as one 
of the better ones, and so from 

1120
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,100
our perspective, it's always 
been something that people know 

1121
00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:56,600
what the current city use 
Bitcoin. 

1122
00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:59,100
And so it's been frustrating for
us having, you know, let's say, 

1123
00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:01,800
you know, higher transaction 
processing or lower latency and 

1124
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,800
so on and not having it. 
Be used because people weren't 

1125
01:00:06,100 --> 01:00:08,500
weren't aware of it or weren't 
using it. 

1126
01:00:08,500 --> 01:00:10,800
And so intellectual, hoping 
we're hoping that it actually 

1127
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,100
creates a bigger market for X of
P because, you know, if it's the

1128
01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:17,900
cheap as if it's the fastest 
which we believe it is, it'll 

1129
01:00:17,900 --> 01:00:22,000
have an advantage over other 
systems that are slower. 

1130
01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:28,900
So, you mean because once you 
have into Ledger widely adopted,

1131
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:36,300
if I want to send US dollars to 
your account, I'll have to hop 

1132
01:00:36,300 --> 01:00:39,300
through something. 
And then you can because ripples

1133
01:00:39,300 --> 01:00:42,000
going to it's going to be easy 
to ride through anything. 

1134
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:46,600
Then ripples Ledger. 
And xrp might become one of 

1135
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,200
those routing stations where the
actual currency exchange takes 

1136
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:51,600
place. 
Yeah. 

1137
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:56,100
So I said earlier that it He's 
very attractive to, you know, 

1138
01:00:56,100 --> 01:01:00,300
try to scale up your Ledger and 
try to become a very efficient 

1139
01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:04,000
hub for liquidity. 
And so we certainly want to play

1140
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:05,800
that game. 
We certainly want to compete for

1141
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,400
that for that Revenue. 
So weather will be successful. 

1142
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,600
I don't know, there's nothing 
just to be totally clear, but 

1143
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,200
all the conspiracy theories to 
rest like there's nothing in it.

1144
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,400
Alleged that would particularly 
Advantage xrp. 

1145
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,800
But we are. 
We are thinking that it is the 

1146
01:01:20,808 --> 01:01:23,200
best Ledger out there right now.
It's the best decentralized. 

1147
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,100
Ager. 
And so as that it should it 

1148
01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:27,300
should do really well in the 
system. 

1149
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,500
Okay cool. 
Well thanks so much guys, thanks

1150
01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:33,500
for coming on and it will be 
very exciting. 

1151
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:37,200
I think to see how intellectual 
progresses and how it's going to

1152
01:01:37,207 --> 01:01:40,700
be adopted, how companies are 
going to use it and what the 

1153
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:43,300
reception will be thanks for 
having us. 

1154
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,900
And yeah, of course we will have
links to the white paper, to 

1155
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:51,600
some of the presentations. 
They've done to the working 

1156
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,600
group and all of those in the 
show notes, so listeners, who 

1157
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,800
want to dive deeper or get 
involved, you know, you'll know 

1158
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,600
where to go. 
So we're project. 

1159
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,800
LTE network is lots of shows, 
you can find on. 

1160
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,500
Let's all pick on.com and we put
out new episodes every Monday, 

1161
01:02:08,500 --> 01:02:12,100
you can subscribe to it on your 
favorite podcast app or watch 

1162
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:17,000
the videos on youtube.com. 
Episode of Bitcoin and well 

1163
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,500
thanks so much and we look 
forward to seeing you next week.

1164
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,100
Episode of Bitcoin and well 
thanks so much and we look 

1165
01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:19,500
forward to seeing you next week.