1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,400
This is epicenter, episode 457 
if guest Ethan Frey. 

2
00:00:18,700 --> 00:00:20,700
Welcome to App Center to show 
which talks about two 

3
00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:23,900
technologies projects and people
driving decentralization. 

4
00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:26,300
And the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Brian Crane. 

5
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,300
And today, I'm speaking with 
Ethan Frey who is the 

6
00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:33,000
co-founder, who's the founder of
cause and was am the founder of 

7
00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:35,500
confio. 
And, you know, we're going to 

8
00:00:35,508 --> 00:00:41,000
get a lot into what it is and 
kind of impact it has had before

9
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,200
we do that. 
It's just a brief word from our 

10
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400
sponsor. 
So we have Tallyho, Tallyho is 

11
00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:49,100
redefining the wallet as a 
public good. 

12
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,900
You can think of it like a 
community-owned. 

13
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,900
Alternative to Madam asked 
value, always smooth user 

14
00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:59,800
experience compared to other 
wallets impressive. 

15
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,700
UI users can easily see all of 
their Accounts at once and swap 

16
00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:07,300
between assets within the wallet
at a much lower price. 

17
00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:10,900
And they also have a great 
Ledger integration ens support 

18
00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:16,200
and UNS The domain name support.
They also recently added polygon

19
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:22,400
as a first side chain and you 
know, it's easy and ready to use

20
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,300
on there. 
And with Tallyho you can also 

21
00:01:26,300 --> 00:01:29,000
enter the metaverse. 
We have a web 3 V that's fully 

22
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,900
Community owned and operated and
it's controlled by the Tallyho 

23
00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:38,000
doll and their commitment to 
community, ownership goes pretty

24
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,300
far. 
So including that they became S,

25
00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:45,900
first sponsor of ether, JS, an 
open source, JavaScript library,

26
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,800
to help developers connected, 
theorem and pledge. 

27
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,400
Some of the tokens to get coin 
Aqueduct. 

28
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:59,000
So, go to tally, dot cash /, 
download to check it out and 

29
00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,000
yeah, get involved until you 
cash. 

30
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,600
So with that, let's go to Ethan,
it's great to have you on Yeah, 

31
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,000
it's good to be here. 
Thank you for having me. 

32
00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:10,100
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

33
00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,500
So Ethan, we have known each 
other for quite a while. 

34
00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:16,200
It's been I know five and a half
years or something. 

35
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,700
So we were both. 
We both joined the tenement team

36
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,400
around the same time at like 
very start of 2017. 

37
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,900
I think we were something like 
there was maybe three or four 

38
00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:30,600
people before us and then it was
basically two of us the same 

39
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,600
time, we were both in Berlin and
sort of this what as at the 

40
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:41,000
Inception of the cosmos Network.
So yeah, it's and of course, 

41
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,100
Ethan has gone on to do lots of 
work, especially in the cosmos 

42
00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:51,000
ecosystem, that has, you know, 
gotten too much, much traction 

43
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,500
in much impact as well. 
So I'm excited to, you know, 

44
00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:58,900
finally have him. 
You have your own but baby, you 

45
00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:03,100
can just hear a little bit like 
sort of About You background. 

46
00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:08,700
Like How did you end up getting 
involved in the crypto space and

47
00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:17,900
in the cosmos ecosystem? 
More specifically Yeah cool. 

48
00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:19,200
Yeah. 
Thanks for that intro. 

49
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,200
And it was actually really cool 
2017, remembering those days and

50
00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:24,800
then going out to some meet up 
back. 

51
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,700
Gently 17 another first time I 
met or like second time at the 

52
00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:32,000
cafe before that, but with Gavin
wood and J-Kwon talking about 

53
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,500
multi chain, polkadot and Cosmos
and Metallica's audience, and it

54
00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:38,700
was like this early days of 
crypto and religion is pretty 

55
00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:39,900
cool. 
Cool times. 

56
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,600
But yeah, I got into I don't 
know. 

57
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,500
Cryptic kind of found me like 
you deny me alone and I Our 

58
00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:51,900
summers like pitching Bitcoin to
be back in 2010, right? 

59
00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:57,700
And 2011, 2011, I guess as like 
the new money and yes, 2011. 

60
00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:01,700
And I just didn't, I don't know.
Like I saw the think, oh, that's

61
00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:03,800
kind of cool but like, I don't 
know, don't do anything 

62
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,600
different than gold. 
So like that's not cool. 

63
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,100
I don't know, like I was not 
looking for investor. 

64
00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:09,800
I'm like ever the worst invest 
in mind, do not accept any 

65
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,500
investment advice, I give you of
what value does valuable. 

66
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,700
But like I look at the tech of 
it and I was kind of like look 

67
00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:18,200
at you know, No thinking about I
should Community currencies and 

68
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,700
like, you know, postmodern 
money. 

69
00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:21,700
And what the next generation 
information money is when 

70
00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:24,900
there's no scarcity and like 
Concepts like this before that 

71
00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:26,700
because it's kind of like a 
hobby. 

72
00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:32,300
I don't know side projects and 
because we like wow you can make

73
00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:34,600
money on the internet. 
It's really stable and it's real

74
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,300
but I Goldman like well Gold's a
bit like, you know, old and then

75
00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:42,800
I heard rip off some time and 
they're like, oh, like 2013, 

76
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,300
2014, 13, 13. 
I was actually some squat near 

77
00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:49,000
Barcelona. 
And this guy was tried turning 

78
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,400
on to Ripple and and they're 
like, oh that's like you said 

79
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,100
that decentralize. 
I ban you know, Swift Network 

80
00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,200
something like that. 
Goes really fast and like so you

81
00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,400
can swap currencies. 
Like I don't do foreign exchange

82
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,500
trading. 
I'm a traitor. 

83
00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:02,600
Like what can I do with it? 
He's like, you can swap 

84
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,600
currencies. 
I'm like, okay and actually 

85
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,000
can't do that all and it was so 
Time around. 

86
00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:10,600
They keep coming back because 
unlike picture stuff to me, 

87
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,600
right and believe like the 
technology but not like the I 

88
00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,000
didn't see it because I'm not 
Trader. 

89
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,200
I didn't really get the get it 
from the money aspect and I want

90
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:24,800
something new. 
And so, like 2014 14, I was at a

91
00:05:24,808 --> 00:05:27,200
workshop in Berlin on so chakra.
See, which is interested. 

92
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,600
And this guy came up to me, the 
only guy in a suit in the whole 

93
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,300
place. 
I'm sure talking and he was 

94
00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:36,700
trying to invent, like a new 
Peugeot of money, and it's like,

95
00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:39,300
you know, No on blockchain 
foreground money with the 

96
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,500
wallets holding all the assets 
and like you could have 

97
00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:44,300
different community-based rules,
the governance, creating a 

98
00:05:44,308 --> 00:05:45,400
stuff, right? 
This is that there's an 

99
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,900
interest. 
Now, he's kind of this Visionary

100
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,100
and I got very, very intrigued 
what he's talking about because 

101
00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:54,400
he said, you know, you can have 
his new community govern rules 

102
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,100
on the money, the money she has 
rules real money that idea 2014,

103
00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,000
which is pretty new for me is 
like, oh that's cool. 

104
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000
He actually behave differently. 
That's interesting. 

105
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,200
We convinced our own money so 
that kind of got me hooked an 

106
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,100
idea of it. 
And so he Show me what etherium 

107
00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:12,900
was like, around Ico time, the 
world computer ideas and like 

108
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:18,100
pointing to Aris Industries 
which was, you know, Billy 

109
00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:20,700
became an actress like this 
incubator of tenement somehow 

110
00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:23,200
and I don't really know how this
everything together, but some 

111
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,200
help with that like three 
errors, like that's cool. 

112
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,900
Like you know, and they saw this
ghost stuff, I'm like looking 

113
00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:30,000
this code and like try to make 
sense. 

114
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,400
And then like started just like 
there's several like oh I can 

115
00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,500
put a block in tenement. 
I like to tell you my idea 

116
00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:38,400
that's really cool idea. 
So I I wouldn't let myself go 

117
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,700
and catch up early and go and 
sometimes 2016 start trying to 

118
00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:45,100
do my own app and tournament. 
You know, this is and then 

119
00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,100
somebody else lakh, people watch
other people trying to adapt and

120
00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:48,800
tournament. 
And I was like, you know, I 

121
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:49,900
still have this summer to 
GitHub. 

122
00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:52,300
It's like react signposts. 
I was like trying to make like a

123
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,700
basically a blog post. 
It would just be whatever your 

124
00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:56,300
blog and internet on the 
blockade. 

125
00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:00,700
Something with the react app and
try to figure out do that and 

126
00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:04,300
said like yeah it should work on
this as like the first step of 

127
00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:07,200
building program money on my own
tenement chain back in 2016. 

128
00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:09,500
Because I thought that would be,
you know, easy, right? 

129
00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:13,300
And and somehow I started going 
on there and filing with your 

130
00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:15,300
bugs and tenement and patching 
bugs and sentiment because 

131
00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:17,100
that's what I did. 
I was doing web dead for a while

132
00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:20,200
and contribute heavily back to 
open source projects, like mongo

133
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,900
and postgres and stuff. 
So you know, you just patch bugs

134
00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:26,200
and Upstream them. 
So I started doing that and and 

135
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,700
somehow Buck, he's like, who are
you? 

136
00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,200
What are you doing here? 
Who you working for? 

137
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,800
Like, no one. 
I'm trying to build my own 

138
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,300
money. 
This is cool stuff. 

139
00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:35,300
We got going on. 
He's like, work for us. 

140
00:07:35,300 --> 00:07:39,500
I'm like I'm My job right now 
and then, like two months later,

141
00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:42,400
like I got anger, and boss. 
Will, who's making you work 

142
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,000
weekend tonight? 
I said I go and do that. 

143
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,000
So I said I'm quitting if you 
make you work nights and 

144
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,000
weekends. 
So see ya then I said, hey guys,

145
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:55,000
I'm open and met them in met 
them in Zurich, November 2016 

146
00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:59,000
and they basically Redfield me 
read build me an IBC I intended 

147
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,100
Min on POS on everything and 
yeah, I can't leave it since 

148
00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:05,600
then. 
Crow. 

149
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,400
Amazing, I wasn't actually aware
that. 

150
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,600
You kind of, like, finally 
through errors Industries, which

151
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,300
is the company. 
I was also working for in 2015 

152
00:08:13,300 --> 00:08:16,300
and 16. 
So that's and maybe talk a 

153
00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,600
little bit about what did you 
work on in the time when you 

154
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,700
were, you know, at tenement or 
like, at at the company back 

155
00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:30,100
then, Yes, the first thing I did
was really what can I Beltre and

156
00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:32,900
try to speed it up. 
So I did some benchmarking early

157
00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:34,900
benchmarks and tests on it and 
then try to speed it up, which 

158
00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,500
was like, then things are too 
premature really speed up 

159
00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:40,600
anymore. 
So I guess it's true at the time

160
00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:44,700
early 2017, but like now's these
bottlenecks and then moved on to

161
00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,000
try to be the like apps. 
So, I actually basically took 

162
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,900
what was based? 
Coin was just a little app that 

163
00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:51,700
had demo app and try to make a 
real app. 

164
00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,400
Clean it up. 
I show, I turned into, I started

165
00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,000
doing the first. 
Of IBC based on the very vague 

166
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,300
spec. 
That white paper, I then made 

167
00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,300
said, hey this lapse a limited, 
let's do something real. 

168
00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:09,000
So I built the the first was the
cosmos SDK is zero six or seven 

169
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,400
or eight, especially me building
it out, over the summer, with 

170
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,600
the help from rigel a bit. 
I built that out heavily. 

171
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,800
I came up with a whole idea. 
The rest client LCD was like, 

172
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,200
we're trying to sign. 
It was working with Matt and 

173
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,400
Judd from nomic. 
Now they're working there and 

174
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,000
they're trying to get front and 
apps and they couldn't actually 

175
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,000
sign and, you know transaction. 
So I'm like, okay, let's make 

176
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,500
this like little small little 
rest over app that like helps 

177
00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:37,700
you to the cryptography. 
Beyond the site server side 

178
00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:40,700
until we have a proper JSM in a 
library in six months from now. 

179
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,900
So yeah, I did this stuff so I'm
sorry sometimes because I've got

180
00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:48,200
Legacy code, but whatever it was
invented, the time to allow the 

181
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,000
LLC. 
Dear Esther idea built SDK out 

182
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,600
there and then that was kind of 
Frozen for a lot of internal 

183
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,700
discussions SDK was put on 
basically hold to be considered 

184
00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:02,000
and reconsidered and the 
meanwhile basically wrote 

185
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,400
obviously white paper, so if you
say anything you're obviously in

186
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,500
2017, that was like I wrote All 
Speck out of your It, which is 

187
00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:10,000
now I just went he's obviously 
got bigger and bigger but the 

188
00:10:10,008 --> 00:10:12,300
concept got bigger. 
The them new job time is 

189
00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:14,200
basically talking transfer 
service expect out token 

190
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,700
transfer with the idea of 
acknowledgements and timeouts 

191
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,400
cleanups stuff like that rather 
than just having these fine 

192
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,100
forget messages. 
So a bunch of stuff Merkel 

193
00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:28,800
proofs Isis 23. 
I wrote the like client proofs 

194
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,700
and stuff like that was really, 
really nice BC and some of the 

195
00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:35,000
code still around and moved up 
four times out that like plant 

196
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,200
food stuff moved out. 
Or times of repose. 

197
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,800
And I think it's in 10 different
now. 

198
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,800
But yeah, if you look away, way,
way, way, way back, once I was 

199
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:49,000
the author that Cool, very cool.
And then what, how do you end up

200
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,100
working on Cosimo's? 
Mmm. 

201
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,000
Yeah. 
So I basically first I a little 

202
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,700
frustrated at the pace in aib 
because there's a lot of 

203
00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:03,400
decisions to be made and they're
all pretty much made in 

204
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,500
California time at which is like
you know my evening and if you 

205
00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:12,600
know by 11:00 a.m. their time 
when they're waking up I was 

206
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,800
pretty much talk about work. 
Usually with 9 p8 8 p.m. in 

207
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,700
Berlin so I was not really 
involved in decision making and 

208
00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:24,000
in fact no one in Berlin was 
really and it Felt like this 

209
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000
injury made somehow. 
And anyway, the SDK was 

210
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,500
basically, put on hold 
indefinitely and nothing really 

211
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,300
to work on and a few other 
things, you have blocked and 

212
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:33,800
working on. 
So I said, this is kinda boring,

213
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,500
want to build something. 
So I said, I'm going to build my

214
00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:37,900
thing. 
So I found another company. 

215
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:40,300
Those often hire me, is it cool?
I want to build another CK. 

216
00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:43,600
So I basically took the idea to 
the first SDK built something 

217
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,400
called we've. 
I OV and it basically had, you 

218
00:11:47,408 --> 00:11:51,500
know, certain early, 2018, I'd 
protobuf going on there, I had 

219
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,600
JavaScript And those talking 
directly to it. 

220
00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:58,200
So, you had basically cause MGS 
talking with no light client 

221
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,500
directly, part of signing 
messages and calling them. 

222
00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:04,700
We had multi cigs in there. 
Yeah, in 2018 have built out the

223
00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:08,000
basic stuff, some basic groups, 
government's modules, and stuff 

224
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,100
like that. 
We're in there as well. 

225
00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:14,300
And a lot of the and some basic 
swap talking stuff in there. 

226
00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:18,600
That was I did a 2018 and then 
towards the end of that year, I 

227
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,800
realized that like there was not
really a business going around 

228
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,700
with this stuff is cool. 
Head and his team were building 

229
00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:26,300
is If up, we had a business 
case, wasn't really maturing and

230
00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:28,800
there's a little yeah, internal 
issues of say and so I got a 

231
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,700
little, I don't know, I watched 
SDK go at own pace and go to and

232
00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:36,400
peace and then like, you know, 
get more and more and more and 

233
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,100
F's. 
And then I showed up at 

234
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,200
interchain, that's a really 
fucking awesome. 

235
00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:49,000
Sorry, bleep that out, but 
awesome conference there, 2019 

236
00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:53,800
and pressures are too. 
Of course, one was A jar has. 

237
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,200
Yeah the anything conversations 
in Berlin. 

238
00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:58,500
Those really awesome really 
awesome. 

239
00:12:58,500 --> 00:12:59,800
Like everyone in the class was 
came. 

240
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,400
The causal have been launched 
like three months earlier and 

241
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,100
like, I don't know. 
Everyone shut their like is 

242
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:05,900
everyone, right? 
And like, no one even had their 

243
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:07,500
own block chains and it's kind 
of like all these people had a 

244
00:13:07,508 --> 00:13:09,400
little project small projects, 
right? 

245
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:11,900
It's amazing group. 
People show up their three-day 

246
00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:15,200
most have conversations and 
discussion and then a hackathon,

247
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,200
the end of it and in that I met 
a lot of cool people and we kind

248
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,900
of come together. 
It's like, let's build something

249
00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:25,600
and I realized it like No, yeah,
No One's Gonna Take. 

250
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,100
We've and I'll drop it and 
they'll look use SDK again but 

251
00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:32,600
I'm not really want to hack this
Decay so much but let's do 

252
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,500
something. 
And then I'm sitting around this

253
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:38,000
table and we kind of got a bunch
of people there floating around 

254
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,300
anyway, it was like me, Aaron 
regen yahaan who's now an 

255
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:48,300
informal formal Taya Shane who's
now at stargaze and then somehow

256
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,900
Pedro from All Connect should up
there and we ended up like so 

257
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:54,700
let's make a team. 
Let's build walls, mm, contracts

258
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:59,200
and let's build Cosmos Market or
was mm, smart contracts in SDK 

259
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,500
and like, sure why not? 
It's two days. 

260
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,500
And, and there's basically three
of us were kind of like, they 

261
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:06,700
also built the group's module, 
kind of, in the way multistage 

262
00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,300
stuff. 
The same time, Shannon Aaron. 

263
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,300
And then, basically, it was 
like, yeah. 

264
00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,600
Let me building that and and PV 
connect on the front end, so 

265
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,900
it's knocked it out on the 
weekend. 

266
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,400
I didn't sleep. 
It kind of close my eyes for an 

267
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,800
hour. 
And yeah, I learned a lot of 

268
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:24,300
Stand your house doing amazing 
stuff there too. 

269
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,000
With in Rust and we knocked it 
out those awesome. 

270
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:30,500
We got contractor working those 
crazy, be uploading contracts 

271
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:32,800
and running them. 
So it's like, you know, don't 

272
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,400
push it falls over but like if 
you do it right? 

273
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,600
Iran says, pretty amazing for us
actually, and I get super 

274
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:40,600
excited for that. 
Is it like? 

275
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,300
Yeah, this is awesome. 
It's the most awesome project 

276
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,300
I've worked on in years and like
this green field of like 

277
00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:48,400
building something new and it's 
compatible. 

278
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:49,800
Everything else people using 
already. 

279
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,700
So that was really learned is 
like you know, don't want to 

280
00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:54,300
forecast to can go off, man. 
Make your own version and 

281
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:56,300
compete like a really like 
everyone wants uses tooling. 

282
00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:58,900
Let's build the tooling, add 
power if everyone can use it and

283
00:14:58,908 --> 00:15:01,300
be compiled everyone. 
So, that was really cool. 

284
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,100
And I said, I got a grant from 
that one of the prizes, got a 

285
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,500
relatively small Grant to follow
up on it. 

286
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:08,200
And said, let's all build it, 
guys. 

287
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,300
I know, we always do a few hours
a week and and every else is too

288
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:12,400
busy. 
They're all ctOS. 

289
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,800
Is like a team ctls. 
And I was only when they said, 

290
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,500
okay, I quit my job and start 
doing this. 

291
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:23,200
So yeah I did and three years 
later it's into it is Cool. 

292
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,000
Awesome. 
Well maybe we can take a zoom 

293
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,600
out a little bit because so 
webassembly right I think a lot 

294
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,600
of people have heard of 
webassembly, right? 

295
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,900
Webassembly is often being kind 
of touted as. 

296
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,800
Oh, it's like you know powerful 
platform etherium. 

297
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,700
I think at one point was like, 
thinking of adopting 

298
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,400
webassembly, you know, there was
some other projects that were 

299
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,000
like very heavily emphasizing 
webassembly. 

300
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,700
I think especially, I might be 
definitive is always like, 

301
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,100
Assembly webassembly. 
Can you can you tell us like 

302
00:15:57,100 --> 00:15:59,800
what is webassembly in? 
Like, what's interesting about 

303
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,500
webassembly? 
Webassembly. 

304
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:07,100
It's a funny history is really 
trying to work faster because 

305
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:10,200
webassembly but nothing really 
did the web anymore except that 

306
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,600
it can often run the web. 
There's a project called a SMGs 

307
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:18,600
that from a sealer that was 
trying to like an optimized 

308
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,400
JavaScript so you could pick up 
a legit or a state faster. 

309
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,600
Anyway, then they basically 
think of webassembly which is a 

310
00:16:24,608 --> 00:16:29,700
VM and I think your theory done 
two or three layers late usually

311
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:32,200
it would have used it. 
It's a very, very simple virtual

312
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,000
machine. 
It's a 32-bit processor with 

313
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,300
some stat calls. 
It has like 150 operations. 

314
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,100
It's a pretty simple. 
Relatively simple architecture. 

315
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:49,300
It involves no runtime, no 
system. there is I think a way 

316
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:55,600
of allocating memory, And like 
no garbage collector, just like 

317
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,400
allocate blocks of memory. 
Like, expand the memory space. 

318
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,400
I want to have access to see how
much memory should have access 

319
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:01,900
to and expand it. 
Literally right. 

320
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:06,700
Like, that's all it has and 
everything else is added as an 

321
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,000
optional import or export. 
If you want to expose something,

322
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,200
you make an export and if you 
want to call into external 

323
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,900
system in part and you have to 
assume you have this this 

324
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,099
Dynamic that like this is a did 
not have access to files. 

325
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:22,099
No access to network nothing. 
And I think if you The jvm which

326
00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:26,300
is the first real popular VM 
there java virtual machine that 

327
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:28,099
came out there. 
And that was basically like an 

328
00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:30,400
a-hole runtime, you have like, 
the virtual machine, which has a

329
00:17:30,408 --> 00:17:33,400
32-bit architecture with the 
stack and pushing stuff on it 

330
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,800
and how it worked. 
But also the system library of 

331
00:17:35,808 --> 00:17:38,500
how to interact with the system 
and how to interact with files 

332
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:39,900
and how to interact with its 
whole pose. 

333
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:42,600
It can fly in system. 
Depending operating system, 

334
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,100
basically not just a virtual 
machine, and this, it finds a 

335
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:48,400
processor to find a processor 
and nothing else in anyone can 

336
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,500
plug any system, they want to 
like there's a product called Z 

337
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:55,100
webassembly system, interface 
which is kind of a posix like 

338
00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:59,700
interface, which is, as if we 
expose exports into it, they can

339
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:02,000
use it. 
And then you can say, okay, we 

340
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,800
only give you access to these 
files and that's all you see, 

341
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,700
the whole world and you can 
control the controller somehow. 

342
00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:11,200
If you compare it with, you 
know, like it BM that people are

343
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,900
kind of like humiliating the in 
the boxing context. 

344
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:17,500
It's you know, the theory of 
virtual machine. 

345
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,100
So what are the advantages or 
maybe? 

346
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:25,200
Entities that this virtual 
machine has versus T, if your 

347
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,800
inversion machine. 
So the first thing is it's 

348
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,600
general purpose, which is a good
and bad thing, right? 

349
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,500
The evm is built for ethereum 
blockchain or a blockchain and 

350
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:39,400
it comes all its pre compiles 
for computes and it comes the 

351
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,900
whole lot of understanding of 
like where things are called and

352
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:43,900
interactions of calling other 
functions. 

353
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:47,800
It's very and these call 
methods, which require blocking 

354
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,200
is like the virtue of the 
language of VM is tied to 

355
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,300
blockchain. 
You've called functions create 

356
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:57,200
functions, like, with bytecode, 
like is tied to itself is Is 

357
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,100
this concept of evm? 
It's not separated from the 

358
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:02,800
runtime. 
It's like the evm is not just a 

359
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,500
machine, it's the runtime, which
means it's like, very like the 

360
00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:09,300
jvm is, for one use case, right?
And it's it has use case and 

361
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,900
it's very tailored which could 
be very good because it's 

362
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:15,700
tailored towards it. 
The bad thing is you have no 

363
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:20,400
tooling around it and you know 
opposition around it and I think

364
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:22,600
we see as being slow, we see has
issues. 

365
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,200
And I think what happened with 
webassembly is it's a very 

366
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,800
generic one. 
Very general purpose, one and so

367
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,300
suddenly, a lot of different 
languages. 

368
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:34,100
Start targeting it. 
They said, oh, we can write C 

369
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:36,500
and compile that 12 assembly, 
right? 

370
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,500
We compile C++ when you pile of 
rust, we can probably 

371
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:40,900
webassembly. 
There's a project called tiny 

372
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:45,200
goat called go to webassembly. 
There's a bunch of other 

373
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,800
projects they're like in 
progress for lots of other 

374
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,700
languages and I mean works. 
Best for static type languages, 

375
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:54,500
low-level languages right now 
but a lot of different languages

376
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:56,600
being compiled like Haskell 
there, some Haskell the web 

377
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,400
simulator She can take others 
you language, compile it to as a

378
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,200
back-end and they can just run 
out like they run on a Intel 

379
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,100
machine architecture. 
The run on a Mac and one arm 

380
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:10,400
architecture, right? 
They run on some older embedded 

381
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,300
CPUs, they can run on awasum 
webassembly VM. 

382
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,800
So I think that fact, first 
allows us whole tooling of lots 

383
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,300
of different front-end coding 
ever, build your own language 

384
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:23,300
and your own self. 
You can use existing code. 

385
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,300
And the second thing you do is 
because of that interface. 

386
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:27,900
What else? 
Tries to build other people? 

387
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:30,900
Try to build the VMS and so 
people just interpreters for it 

388
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:34,000
faster and faster, right? 
So there's like an interpreter 

389
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,700
built in your browser. 
There's probably two or three of

390
00:20:35,708 --> 00:20:37,900
them out there, right? 
One from Google one, from 

391
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:42,200
Mozilla, I think one from 
Safari, there is y, z, which is 

392
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,300
a polkadot which interpreter, 
which doesn't, is not a jit. 

393
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,600
A lot of them will take that y z
code and compile it into 

394
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,300
optimized, local code run it. 
Their sandbox local codes to 

395
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,500
make it much faster. 
It's like an opposition called 

396
00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:58,200
just-in-time compilation there. 
Wah smooch we use. 

397
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,500
And while some time with your, 
to time competing things, which 

398
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:05,400
also do either pre compiling or 
just-in-time compiling of the 

399
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,300
code to native code and run it 
to get really fast compilation. 

400
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,500
There's some other ones out 
there too. 

401
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,400
So there's a bunch of smart 
people doing it and you're not 

402
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,800
tied to one project interpreting
it, you're not tied to one 

403
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,100
project building, tooling around
it, you'll leveraging 56, 

404
00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:21,400
different language, ecosystems 
entirely tooling of Rusty, can 

405
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,300
use just out of the box with 
webassembly and then you have 

406
00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:26,400
like five or six different back 
ends you can choose from and 

407
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,400
who's Gonna write you the VM who
implements a VM that runs 

408
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,000
swasey. 
So it's a standard basically, 

409
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,700
it's a standard middleware, and 
it's not really tied to a 

410
00:21:34,708 --> 00:21:38,300
blockchain or anything else. 
People running redis in 

411
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:40,000
webassembly system interface, 
right? 

412
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,400
So you can do anything in it and
then allows you to Leverage is 

413
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,700
huge of Toulon and people are 
working on optimizing it as fast

414
00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:48,400
as I can. 
So Russ is really heavily 

415
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,200
optimized, amazing, a pile 
engineers and it wasn't time. 

416
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,500
The compiling was them to like 
the most efficient bike or they 

417
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:55,300
can. 
And they gained some really, 

418
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,900
really impressive stuff. 
They've really Of compiler low 

419
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,700
level designers work in this 
full time that we're not paying 

420
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,500
for that. 
Like, multiple people are paying

421
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,000
for, and like, top-of-the-line 
stuff that you're not trying to 

422
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,000
recruit them as your own 
blockchain project, just like 

423
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,800
Leverage them. 
So, I think it's because it's a 

424
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,000
whole ecosystem and it's so 
compatible. 

425
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,600
Generic it allows us huge 
ecosystem of many companies to 

426
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,500
build two Optical lab rate, 
which is too powerful at the 

427
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:22,900
time. 
The evm was launched, it was not

428
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,500
around, it was not available, it
was kind of in some weight idea 

429
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:27,100
stage. 
Age. 

430
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,500
It was I understand when they 
built the TV and they had to 

431
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,200
that was the best the time they 
could have done. 

432
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,500
But like now I see that came out
later and say hey this is a 

433
00:22:34,508 --> 00:22:37,500
whole ecosystem, we can use it 
and then we just customize a few

434
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:40,400
things on it. 
Like the entry points, we expose

435
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,000
the contracts and we can run it.
So polkadot is running out 

436
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,100
quickly webassembly as well. 
Thanks, that's very helpful when

437
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,600
you win now. 
Now, let's talk about cars and 

438
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,200
walls. 
Mmm, I guess, one thing that 

439
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,400
probably a lot of people are not
aware of, and maybe you can talk

440
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,400
a little bit about it, right? 
But he's starting in cause in 

441
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,600
the cosmos SDK, right? 
You have this concept that 

442
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,400
there's like different plugins, 
right? 

443
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,900
So you have these different 
modules and then they will be 

444
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,200
like it, you know, module that's
like it's taking module or more,

445
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,900
the IBC module and and These 
different modules. 

446
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,300
And then, you know, the 
different SDK blockchains can 

447
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:24,800
say, oh, we use some of them, we
develop some of our own and 

448
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,200
then, you know, cause some 
wasn't right, basically means 

449
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,200
like, okay, you taking this 
webassembly and you putting it 

450
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,000
as a module. 
Inside, the cosmos SDK. 

451
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,000
Is that is that correct? 
And like what, what are some of 

452
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,200
the? 
What are some of the, you know, 

453
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,800
the consequences of like putting
the webassembly inside? 

454
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,100
This Cosmos SDK framework. 
Work. 

455
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,700
Yeah, it's a kind of funny 
question. 

456
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:53,300
I should so like you're right. 
There are these modules into the

457
00:23:53,308 --> 00:23:57,700
SDK is pretty amazing, plug-in 
set so you can add different 

458
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:02,000
modules and easy to kind of like
import code from here and your 

459
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,900
own code and extend. 
It is meant to extensible. 

460
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:06,100
It is it's very sensible. 
What? 

461
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:10,100
It does require though is a hard
for that every time you want to 

462
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:12,800
change it. 
So if you write like you deploy 

463
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,100
a new amm module, right? 
And you want to add it, then you

464
00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:17,200
have to basically get that 
murder. 

465
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:19,800
Has into the main code base the 
code and then get the entire 

466
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,100
Block Chain to stop switch out 
the binaries out there. 

467
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,700
Run some script now it's a 
little more optimized I've paid 

468
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,400
for that was like a whole dump. 
Dump State restart like three 

469
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,600
our issues now. 
It's down to like five ten 

470
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,200
minutes but still did. 
According to our block is 

471
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,400
stopped or just restart and come
with a new code to add the new 

472
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,600
module, remove module update it,
right? 

473
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,800
And that is a lot better than 
working on like Bitcoin. 

474
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,800
We try to change it, right. 
The core logic bitcoiners e-cash

475
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,800
but still not The smart contract
of element speed, so it makes 

476
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,700
sense for core functionality 
like governance and staking. 

477
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,000
But we said, hey if you're smart
contracts, a lot of things just 

478
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,500
like Adam on top, they don't 
really matter. 

479
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:59,200
You want to play them quickly. 
So what we did is we don't store

480
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,300
the walls of inside of your, the
bottom VM. 

481
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:04,900
So we wrote this entire like we 
took the webassembly virtual 

482
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,900
machine from Hua summer. 
We wrapped it with some standard

483
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:11,100
callbacks. 
So it basically explain its 

484
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,100
place in the world. 
How can talk to blockchain, so, 

485
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,100
a program can also say, hey 
query, this other part of the 

486
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:21,000
Block Chain or send tokens over 
here or call this other 

487
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,100
contract. 
Right? 

488
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:26,300
We exposed some functionality to
it in a certain frame, certain 

489
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:27,800
functions to it. 
It's okay. 

490
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,800
These are extra special 
functions for cause of awesome 

491
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,800
contract on top of normal Watson
contract. 

492
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:36,400
And so we built the virtual 
machine and is the rust into a 

493
00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:38,900
busy of Library which we 
embedded in a module. 

494
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:42,000
So it's a bit crazy. 
We built basically a rust model 

495
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000
library and a dll. 
And then embedded that into a go

496
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,000
binary, just writing here. 
And the walls and code, is never

497
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,500
actually not binary, the wadham 
college upload in a transaction 

498
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,300
just like in kind of ethereal 
you upload code. 

499
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,800
So the actual the virtual 
machine and the runtime is in 

500
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,200
this module, which then actually
calls in every other module the 

501
00:26:02,208 --> 00:26:07,500
system. 
But the actual that was imposed 

502
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,400
to upload a transaction stores 
in state-of-the-state other 

503
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,300
thing, and it just loads at code
when needed Yeah, that's an 

504
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,200
important thing, right? 
Because the and the cosmos 60k 

505
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:21,600
Paradigm, right? 
Like somebody wants to modify 

506
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,700
some plugins and module and then
that requires changing this 

507
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:30,100
code, new binary, you know, like
all the validators have to 

508
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:34,900
change its a lot of friction and
here the thing is, I can write a

509
00:26:34,908 --> 00:26:39,100
bunch of code. 
I put it into a transaction, the

510
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:44,600
transaction gets sent and then 
this was VM kind of like, Rap 

511
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,500
stat. 
And then it has that code, 

512
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,200
right? 
And so nothing has nothing 

513
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,700
outside has to change but now 
all of a sudden you have like 

514
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:56,100
that code in there and I guess 
that's particularly attractive 

515
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,500
if in and I guess that's also 
where calls them was in. 

516
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:04,500
The has been has found a lot of 
usage in the cosmos. 

517
00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:07,900
Ecosystem is like oh I want to 
create a general smart contract 

518
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:10,200
chain, right? 
Where everyone can sort of, put 

519
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,300
your own contracts on that 
because that's something that 

520
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:14,800
calls. 
Mrs. D k with Without something,

521
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,700
a cousin wasn't doesn't really 
support. 

522
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:21,100
Well, Yeah, and a lot of things 
in the move faster and they 

523
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,300
don't want the whole chain, 
like, a purpose change of your 

524
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:24,500
decks. 
I think they've got really good 

525
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,600
decks on as Moses. 
They based on balance our ideas 

526
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,100
and some reason curve and they 
basically, I think you saw it so

527
00:27:30,108 --> 00:27:31,700
well, understood question, 
right? 

528
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,700
But now we try to build stuff on
top of it. 

529
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,500
Like, okay, lending protocol and
you want to do some leverage 

530
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,500
option stuff on it. 
They're like, okay, we actually 

531
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,200
want the faster cause I'm 
Awesome on it. 

532
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,200
And if T is moving too fast, 
like feel trying to coach him go

533
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,700
and have tea thing, but it's 
like it's months behind the 

534
00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:47,700
space. 
So like, I think, Think things 

535
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,200
that Mutiny move faster, it's 
essential and so contracts, only

536
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,200
the privilege of a user account 
external account. 

537
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,100
They have more privileges than 
another account than you do. 

538
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,100
And I do this on a coat, this 
have their own, the Logics, on 

539
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,700
the blockchain. 
But if no more privileges, they 

540
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:02,700
can hold token to move tokens of
different rules. 

541
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,100
So it's great for things like 
that, which are simple app logic

542
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,800
that you want to add and I think
the SDK is amazing. 

543
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,000
Things like, oh, we don't change
our fees are handled won't 

544
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,100
change our consensus works and 
govern votes work. 

545
00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:17,300
We need to change our like you 
know, a spam middleware. 

546
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,900
And we need to import IBC as 
native control, which is totally

547
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,900
trusted 100, trusted verified 
code on here, which is stable 

548
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:25,900
and not changing the foundation 
for the things. 

549
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:28,700
So, sdks great way of composing,
lots of different projects 

550
00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:31,000
together to build foundational 
levels right? 

551
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:33,300
Where's cause I'm awesome, said,
okay, if you want to do just 

552
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:37,000
like business logic a pelagic, 
not foundational blockchain 

553
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,300
stuff. 
Let's do it there and I think 

554
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:41,800
it's a great combination so that
you have five, six different 

555
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,800
teams, composing stuff, and 
adding things in there as 

556
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,000
modules. 
So, you can build this SDK base 

557
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,600
layer, and cause I'm awesome. 
Okay. 

558
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,900
Now all those hundreds of deaths
that want to run on top of a 

559
00:28:50,908 --> 00:28:53,800
chain or thousands of deaths. 
Now that want to run on top of a

560
00:28:53,808 --> 00:28:56,700
chain, you can just do it right.
You don't worry about that 

561
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:58,000
platform. 
You don't worry about who's 

562
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,900
paying what content to say what 
the gasp fairies are. 

563
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:02,200
You just worried about, like 
running your logic. 

564
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,000
So I think it allows these two 
things up side-by-side very 

565
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,600
well. 
Yeah, but then like you 

566
00:29:08,608 --> 00:29:12,100
mentioned this Moses like, 
osmosis right? 

567
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:17,100
Doesn't have generalized, more 
contracts is not like anybody 

568
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:20,700
can just go and like, put some 
stuff on on a smooth surface, 

569
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:25,200
but they also, I think 
leveraging calls them awesome in

570
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,200
some ways. 
Can you talk a little bit about 

571
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,800
Ike? 
Because on the example, of like,

572
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,400
generalized, smart contract 
chain, right? 

573
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,200
Like Juno is one example, 
probably the best-known example 

574
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,100
in the cosmos. 
Right where you have, this 

575
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:39,400
costume wasn't chained and like,
you know, lots of different 

576
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,900
people building like lots of 
different stuff on that. 

577
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,400
But can you talk about the other
example, right, where you using 

578
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,500
causing walsman in a more 
controlled way you and more 

579
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,400
permission way? 
So a number of chains of 

580
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,100
actually adopted a little more 
conservatively than Gino has. 

581
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,100
So there's no early adopters of 
Gino and both from cyber 

582
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:00,700
Congress. 
Some early, I mean, before that 

583
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:04,500
without you Terror and secret, 
the first ones as permission 

584
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:08,600
less, but the first one, modern 
obviously, one of those, you 

585
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,200
know, I guess what it does. 
Most of the same thing I'm 

586
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000
stargaze, which is basically 
permission to contract. 

587
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:19,200
It doesn't mean that allows you 
to add a block code requires 

588
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,100
government vote to allow you to 
use your code, right? 

589
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:24,500
So they basically want to vet 
all the code on their thing. 

590
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,000
It's a way of saying, hey start 
this almost activities on there 

591
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,200
and stuff. 
So if you want to upload a 

592
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,500
project, an FTE basically. 
Hey I'm Billy project that ft. 

593
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:33,200
I want to launch a new chain, 
okay? 

594
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,100
Yes. 
Okay and they say, hey now this 

595
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:37,900
is some like D5 product. 
You'll want to chain, don't come

596
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:41,500
to a chain. 
So, they control that first step

597
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:43,700
of being able to upload that 
contract instantiate it. 

598
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:48,300
Once it connects on the chain is
permissionless, right? 

599
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:49,300
Like you do anything you want 
with it. 

600
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:51,900
Once on the Chain, you basically
just have to ask to go in the 

601
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:52,600
front. 
Our. 

602
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:54,800
And after that runs, just like 
any other contract, any other 

603
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,600
chain has, most of the same 
thing, they kind of wanted to 

604
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,600
have a like whatever you can 
experiment and you know and do 

605
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,300
stuff and you know and you're 
going to in the end, you know, 

606
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,200
they wanted more like a App 
Store feel Force, Moses they 

607
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,400
wanted to have like you know 
five protocols may be on there 

608
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,600
the building on there they can 
integrate into the ecosystem. 

609
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,500
There slowly allow them in there
which allows them to scale out. 

610
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,100
Not like your general purpose 
but it's okay. 

611
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:21,600
We can find him Dev teams 
building from projects and they 

612
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,100
don't have to get the Core code 
base. 

613
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:25,300
They can't break a code, they 
can't break, there's the chain, 

614
00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:26,800
then we can build our own little
project. 

615
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,900
So, actually, we, they basically
just make agreements with 

616
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,200
projects beforehand. 
Like if you want to run as Moses

617
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,500
talk to them and if they like it
project to say cool, when you 

618
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,100
finish it will let you go on 
there more or less, right? 

619
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:40,900
It's like you basically get 
permission first. 

620
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:43,000
And once you do that, you just 
write your code like you're 

621
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,500
doing, you know, you go through 
a process to get approved to go 

622
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,000
on the chain and watched on the 
Chain, then it runs like 

623
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,800
anywhere else. 
So let's Except you've acted 

624
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,300
acts on chain, which actually 
pretty cool. 

625
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:55,600
So, some people leveraging it 
for letting protocols etc. 

626
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Etc. 
I think it's I think that's an 

627
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,200
option. 
We came early on and we put that

628
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,000
early on, as an option and it's 
really being used as year. 

629
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,900
So, people being like, I want to
have cause I'm Awesome by wanna 

630
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:09,600
control of a nap chain and cause
I'm awesome Cheney one. 

631
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,300
Actually had them both Best of 
Both Worlds. 

632
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,900
Like yeah, an evacuated set of 
applications on my chain but 

633
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,000
allow third-party devs, easily 
accident. 

634
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,200
And yeah, I guess you you. 
She tear our right is actually 

635
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,900
important because probably a lot
of people are not aware that you

636
00:32:25,908 --> 00:32:28,700
know, Taro is also using calls 
and awesome and you know, all 

637
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:30,600
these things that were being 
built on Tara. 

638
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,100
I mean I guess again, with the 
exception of a bunch of 

639
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:39,000
foundational stuff that was 
like, part of the chain logic. 

640
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,800
But you know, that the 
applications people were 

641
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,600
building on terror were built in
in calls. 

642
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,300
Mausam, they were the first 
doctor doesn't want them. 

643
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,900
I want to say the only stable 
thing UST was not, cause I'm 

644
00:32:50,908 --> 00:32:53,000
awesome. 
UST was not going to cause some 

645
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000
awesome. 
That predate casu. 

646
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,000
Marzu net change. 
Had it changed UST. 

647
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,100
DST lunar whole thing treasury, 
I understand it, but that was 

648
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,300
existing before hand, but all 
the other protocols, so Terror, 

649
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:09,600
Swap, and even anchor and mere 
protocol, be Luna. 

650
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,400
And then the whole series of 
levana and Marsh and all these 

651
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400
other protocols pumping out 
there, all got some awesome they

652
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,800
would older version upgrade 
actually two recent version Um, 

653
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,200
but yeah, it was its own 
cosmology because some children 

654
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,100
have IBC support. 
That kind of actually ties into 

655
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,400
my follow-up question here. 
So call some awesome you have 

656
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,500
this. 
Basically kind of you know, 

657
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:35,300
separate container, right? 
We're like code lives and you 

658
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:37,600
can kind of like things 
happening there and then you 

659
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,300
have like, you know, other 
Cosmos modules. 

660
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:44,000
Like, you know, for instance, 
there's an IBC module, right? 

661
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,100
Which is like sending 
transaction to other chains, so 

662
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:51,100
I guess, you know, the cause of 
autism contracts have to somehow

663
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:56,700
talk with these other modules or
So how does that interface work?

664
00:33:56,700 --> 00:34:00,100
And are they like some 
limitations around this? 

665
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,200
Yeah. 
So we basically expose some 

666
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,500
modules, what does should Json 
and past Jason basically because

667
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:12,000
we chose easy debugging us you 
know if you can play on Jason 

668
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,100
being they're not part of of 
talk to ya hon Vincent, Chase on

669
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:18,699
the best way to see easily debug
it and kept rolling. 

670
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,000
But basically passed between 
that it calls a system. 

671
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,800
With the Json blob says, hey 
talk to bank on it, and we 

672
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,100
Define an interface for the 
contract, they can call the bank

673
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:31,199
module, 2 Min Berto, contain 
call into the sticky mud. 

674
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,000
We'll just take tokens and 
delegate and claim the rewards. 

675
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,400
They can call into the 
governance. 

676
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,400
Want to vote. 
For example, they call the IBC 

677
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,000
module. 10 tokens also allow 
custom IVC call back. 

678
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,400
So you can actually have an IVC 
protocol built as a contract. 

679
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,000
I want to get that later and we 
allowed to have custom callbacks

680
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,000
right the thing called a custom.
So basically you say gate, we 

681
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,800
give you a standard set of 
things, but change will all want

682
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,400
to tie their own ones in there. 
So we have an extension point 

683
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,100
that you don't have to Fork. 
Cause I'm awesome. 

684
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,300
You don't have four car VM. 
Your own Fork wasn't the 

685
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:02,400
anything he's a whole Teamwork. 
And this is an early thing. 

686
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,200
We did to early on to make sure 
if you're not forfeit, and say, 

687
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,800
if you want to expose adex 
osmosis you can add a special 

688
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,200
call back to take a. 
These we have a new structure 

689
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,500
here, which can add embed into 
other message, called custom. 

690
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,200
And our custom type is, as most 
of message, and it runs here and

691
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,800
allows you talk to decks. 
So it basically defined format 

692
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,000
Json format that you can use 
for, for the finding call, back 

693
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,500
your native module, and then on 
your on your Block Chain. 

694
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:32,300
You basically interpret that to 
do those things, Video message 

695
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,400
Api between the contract and 
your native blockchain and a 

696
00:35:36,408 --> 00:35:38,900
number of people use that quite 
a few have used that as 

697
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:41,600
extension point and I want to 
actually mention this about 

698
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,800
Justin cause I'm awesome. 
Awesome, awesome is not just in 

699
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,600
Cosmos anymore, this running on 
a substrate chain which I think 

700
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,900
is a pretty impressive, 
engineering feat, so composed of

701
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:55,300
Finance has launched a poker, a 
chain. 

702
00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:59,100
And they have Cosmos and running
in substrate and it's integrated

703
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,000
with the bank module it's not I 
think tied this Sticky module 

704
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,500
IBC That vaccine yet but they 
just run it on. 

705
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:07,900
You can run contracts like a 
Stevie 20 contract and you can't

706
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:09,200
have tea on it. 
Can you same contracts? 

707
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,100
They're different Jazz front end
but like the back and run the 

708
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:14,900
same, they uploaded actually 
unmodified contracts onto it and

709
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:16,400
running and substrate chain, 
which is pretty cool. 

710
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:18,900
And what's the, what's the 
benefit of that? 

711
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:23,000
If, you know, as you said that, 
polkadot already uses 

712
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,900
webassembly. 
So, why Port cousin was a mantra

713
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,900
polkadot Yeah, I don't know why 
I put that. 

714
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:33,600
You see what we simply? 
Honestly, they use webassembly 

715
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,300
as a base layer, the whole 
strange writings webassembly, 

716
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:37,800
but like the same way 
everything's written in go. 

717
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,200
It rustic possibly, so, but you 
have upgraded your hard work, 

718
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,300
the chain, and I guess, in 
theory, can hard for the chain 

719
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:48,000
without a restart or like 
automatically, we started 

720
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,800
getting upload it, but all 
permissioned. 

721
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,600
It's a very complicated thing. 
If a recompile, the whole thing,

722
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,600
and then you upload these pieces
and I still have yet to see it 

723
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,300
be done flawlessly. 
But They're the ideas basically 

724
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,600
allow easier upgrades, but still
don't rush it and basically you 

725
00:37:02,607 --> 00:37:05,500
have one new web assembly 
binary, you're stretching out 

726
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,600
to, right? 
Like it is a giant web sembly 

727
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:11,700
project. 
Not smart contract, they have, 

728
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,100
but just allow third parties, 
just to change developers. 

729
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:17,200
Same with SDK, does it is used 
as a Target. 

730
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:21,000
They also have something called 
ink, which is smart contract 

731
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,400
language, which compiles 
webassembly, and they upload 

732
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,400
that, and run that as user 
controlled things, but it's not 

733
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,400
really caught on It was actually
existing before casu. 

734
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,000
Marzu must have dreamed of, 
right? 

735
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,600
Like, I saw demos of it. 
Like, when I wrote, cause I'm 

736
00:37:34,607 --> 00:37:36,400
awesome and they looked over. 
I saw that they had done 

737
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,000
something similar, but never 
took off, I'm I think overly 

738
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,100
complicated and but I don't 
know, I don't really know why. 

739
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,900
The truth is ink is never taken 
off over three years of the 

740
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:50,200
funny about three and there's a 
project composable, it's really 

741
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,800
tied into the Poke that you can 
system that had tried ink and 

742
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,700
refresh rate with it. 
So frustrated, sigh to Port, 

743
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,900
cause a malls in into a 
substrate, create Each pallet 

744
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,900
they're called, I think like a 
modules, the VM and talk to us 

745
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:05,600
to figure out and then, you 
know, make it compatible because

746
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,800
they thought cause I'm also such
a nice to Target and writing 

747
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,300
contracts. 
So I don't know, I don't know 

748
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:12,400
why, I don't know if that's good
business choice, but they did it

749
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,100
and they're happy with it and 
they're running their stuff on 

750
00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:15,800
it when they're trying to work 
at BC as well. 

751
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,700
So that's cool. 
But I think the point was it was

752
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:21,900
designed actually same way that 
the webassembly virtual machine 

753
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:25,500
is not tie, just a block, 
change, or Theory, blockchain 

754
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,200
the cause of War. 
Virtual machine system. 

755
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,400
We have runs great. 
We have a binding in the cosmos.

756
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,200
We've love to bed in the cosmos 
but like, they have met 

757
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,100
somewhere else and it can be 
embedded other places. 

758
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:43,200
Well, so is actually relatively 
relatively Universal Target, 

759
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,500
which I think might, hopefully. 
In the next few years extends, 

760
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:47,700
I'd love to see it like an 
avalanche or near some like that

761
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:48,400
also running. 
Awesome. 

762
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:55,300
Awesome. 
Yeah, maybe that ties into the 

763
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:57,200
question of kind of weird, you 
see. 

764
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,800
Cousin wasn't going, is there a 
lot of what does the development

765
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:09,000
roadmap look like Yeah. 
So our original goal released 10

766
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:16,200
back last fall and fall 2021. 
And I think our goal is and to 

767
00:39:16,207 --> 00:39:19,700
get changed using it, right? 
All upgrading to use it is an 

768
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:23,200
IBC enabled version of it using 
Stargate, IVC, all that stuff 

769
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,800
that took some months. 
And this this bring time I was 

770
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,600
amazed went from like, you know,
45 teens using it to like, you 

771
00:39:28,607 --> 00:39:31,500
know, 13 now it's over 20 change
using it, right? 

772
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,500
So we first was like, exhales 
deeply. 

773
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,500
Using it. 
And the second thing I'm working

774
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:38,700
on is getting more devs on and 
Tara did a great job getting 

775
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:40,200
dibs on it. 
Do you know as Moses they're 

776
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,700
getting a lot more devs on this 
stuff. 

777
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:45,300
And we're working thing called 
Academy Academy, that cause 

778
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,100
amazon.com and we are trained up
depth. 

779
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:50,200
So right now we're doing is 
basically trying to build the 

780
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,700
ecosystem. 
So we got the change running it,

781
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:54,000
you have 20 chains plus running 
it. 

782
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,600
Now we're giving free classes, 
free tutorials, free tooling for

783
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,200
devs alert, it to really build 
the deck. 

784
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,000
You system from several hundred 
to a thousand deaths in Are many

785
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,100
more like a theory of its huge 
number one and fill this out. 

786
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,300
And what I really see is 
differentiator and where I want 

787
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:13,900
to work on and what I am working
on besides like, helping people 

788
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:18,400
building tools and tutorials for
people is IVC. 

789
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,400
So inner chain contracts. 
It's like I did this thing say 

790
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,000
oh and a hack at them a demo day
at the pool act on it and like 

791
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,500
Jake did some and some guy from 
Tai Chi from Japan. 

792
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,300
And another one it's pretty 
awesome that you can basically 

793
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,400
deploy a contract and two 
different chains, they talked 

794
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,000
Each other with like no trusted 
Bridges. 

795
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,600
No multi sakes. 
Nothing could be hacked in the 

796
00:40:37,607 --> 00:40:41,400
middle them just like pure 
guaranteed message passing with 

797
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,500
complete Security by b.c. and 
the contractor told the app 

798
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:46,900
logic. 
Like if you if you send a 

799
00:40:46,908 --> 00:40:49,300
message says meant token or 
mints token or not, I don't 

800
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:50,800
know. 
Over make a governance about or 

801
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,800
control this dowel or or change 
the threshold of my LP pool 

802
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,100
thing or whatever you want to 
do. 

803
00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:58,000
It's kind of entertaining 
accounts but like so much more 

804
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
powerful because you can 
actually write contracts both 

805
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,400
sides and that was not possible 
until you actually You had 

806
00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:08,800
multiple important chains, 
running Cosimo's 10 and we 

807
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,800
waiting for like three, four 
months ago is like actually 

808
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,500
okay, great like Juno secret 
Juno's Moses or not 10 and 

809
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:18,300
secrets appearing very shortly. 
I think those are three of the 

810
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:22,200
top change behind the Hub on the
ecosystem and terms of market 

811
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,400
cap, at least and there are 
running. 

812
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,600
Injective also another big 
change are also running it so 

813
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,800
like a lot of people writing it 
now. 

814
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000
So most of the changes that the 
Hub are running cause I'm 

815
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,500
awesome which means you can 
actually build protocol expands 

816
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,800
45 change using IBC messages and
write an entire not just your 

817
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,500
app logic, but actually the 
protocol communication there, 

818
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,100
that's like, writing your own 
API servers and talking blotches

819
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,600
of blockchain, no Bridge facts 
involved. 

820
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:48,300
And that's really wise the 
future. 

821
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:51,400
And that's really what I'm going
to be a lot of work into not 

822
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,900
just not just building it. 
Also documenting try to explain 

823
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,600
it but also trying to build 
these things out there because 

824
00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:58,700
hey I'm trying to build 
something doesn't exist yet. 

825
00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:00,300
Just hard to teach people 
tutorials from the doesn't 

826
00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,000
exist. 
So I going to build a stuff 

827
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,200
first and then show you how to 
build But I just bought some 

828
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,300
prototypes out there and it's 
amazingly fast. 

829
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,900
So, I think one thing we did 
talk about before on this 

830
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:15,000
podcast, we maybe some people 
have heard of are aware of is in

831
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,300
Cosmos this concept of 
entertaining counts, which 

832
00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:20,800
basically you have like an 
accountant one chain and then 

833
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,600
you can control it from another 
chain. 

834
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,500
So let's say, for example, 
there's a project Quicksilver, 

835
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,100
right? 
And they doing liquid staking 

836
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,800
with that. 
So that this quick silver chain 

837
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,300
control and account on Cosmos, 
it can cause my top, it can you 

838
00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:38,400
stake Adam's booking governance,
you know, claim rewards you Do 

839
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,700
all those things and able is 
controlled by another Block 

840
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:43,500
Chain that you know then issue 
like a liquid second token. 

841
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,300
So that's like an example of 
interesting accounts are 

842
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:50,100
obviously many examples now. 
What you're describing right? 

843
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:53,200
It's basically goes even a step 
further, right? 

844
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,400
Because you basically have like 
contract code on both sides 

845
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:00,800
realize here, it's kind of like 
letting the quicksave example, 

846
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,300
it's kind of like contract code 
on the one side, right? 

847
00:43:04,300 --> 00:43:08,100
And then the other hand is just 
like a normal account, can you? 

848
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,200
I talked a little bit about use 
cases. 

849
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,300
Like, what are some of the 
things that, you know, you could

850
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,000
like you'd be interested in 
building or you can imagine 

851
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,500
people building, you know, these
cross chain causing walls and 

852
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:28,000
maps. 
Yeah, I will, I will. 

853
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,700
So I think in some theoretical 
way with token transfer and your

854
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:35,100
hand accounts may be able to 
build anything may be able to 

855
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:38,100
and using queries, we add that 
like those might be funneled, 

856
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:40,100
principal say these are holy 
principles, we can build 

857
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:43,500
anything with them but they're 
inefficient develop things. 

858
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,000
So I think for first taking is 
fine, because you'll have to 

859
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,400
take that often, right? 
Like you can just every 12 hours

860
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,800
now. 
You put your money in res, take 

861
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,500
it, right? 
So I have to go so much but 

862
00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,400
let's say I have a lending 
protocol. 

863
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,400
Does liquid and decks another 
chain, right? 

864
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,200
The current way of, let's just 
say, that's just right. 

865
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,100
Now, the producing protocol 
assuming is all exist, 

866
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:07,600
entertaining account, inquiries 
and token transfers. 

867
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,000
If I have a protocol here, the 
ones that liquidated X over 

868
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,800
here, right? 
First, I move one message, move,

869
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,300
my tokens over here, awaiting a 
response right now, as you know,

870
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:19,800
get call back in the response, 
you need a dowel to control it. 

871
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,300
And we're working with IG team 
to like, you actually triggered 

872
00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:25,700
a call back when it finishes, 
then you say, okay, now, make a 

873
00:44:25,707 --> 00:44:31,100
swap With this initial accounts 
to make a swap of that money is 

874
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:33,300
sent over here for other token, 
right? 

875
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,400
It may have succeeded or failed,
if it succeeds. 

876
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,900
Then I query to see actually, 
how much they get, right? 

877
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:43,200
The full amount I got. 
Okay, then call overheating can 

878
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,400
count you transfer tokens back 
to get their taxes back, right? 

879
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,700
And that's a lot of here, make a
request getresponse, make a 

880
00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:52,600
request getresponse. 
He's also requests right in here

881
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,400
has orders the whole thing. 
Now let's say hey this is 

882
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,800
actually a common use case. 
This is not something you do 

883
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,900
once. 
There's something eating all the

884
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:00,600
time, it's York, uh, business 
case. 

885
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,600
I want to employ the off my set.
I'm gonna deploy a contract here

886
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,500
and the contract here. 
Then what they do say is they've

887
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:11,100
done protocol which is move 
tokens, swap them at this price,

888
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,500
and send me all the results 
back. 

889
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,900
If the price, if you don't make 
that price, if the money is too 

890
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:19,500
low, right? 
The price is, if the market 

891
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:22,400
won't trade this price, they 
return my original funds back, 

892
00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:24,900
right? 
That's a really simple logic, 

893
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:27,800
and not the only one that so, 
but we're Not going to wait for 

894
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,700
like a go code. 
Six, eight months, 12 months to 

895
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:33,500
build some new go logic with 
this very specific use case, 

896
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:35,000
integrating some debt on this 
one change. 

897
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,800
They know we want to watch it 
now so we could do. 

898
00:45:36,808 --> 00:45:40,300
Now I wrote a query right now we
could do this very quickly and 

899
00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:42,300
basically say this now we write 
these two contracts here. 

900
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:44,900
They do that if you trust it so 
well I can say, okay here 

901
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,400
liquidate at this price it was 
in one message back and then you

902
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,700
a call back, you know, whatever 
one obviously message, it will 

903
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,200
do this logic and then your 
callback saying, okay I liquid 

904
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,200
at this. 
Great stuff or I fail to 

905
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,700
liquidate and your money back, 
right? 

906
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:05,500
Like, you get it right away that
I think will allow people to do 

907
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:08,100
Integrations. 
They couldn't even conceive of. 

908
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:10,800
That's like that's faster, 
right? 

909
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,900
This is faster, but it actually 
can only conceive. 

910
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:15,300
I've only got one more. 
So I'm working something called 

911
00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:20,300
wind, Dow w, y and d dou. 
And we, I think, the second 

912
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,400
stuff might be like that first 
would authors, demo authors a 

913
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,000
prototype and give it to y'all. 
It's free stuff, right? 

914
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,300
We doing this. 
For you everyone. 

915
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,500
I have a query like users 
privacy price Oracle as most 

916
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:34,100
issues like imported and waiting
40. 

917
00:46:34,100 --> 00:46:38,200
Walk out there we finalized. 
But the next one is this. 

918
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,400
I think the next level a really 
deep integration. 

919
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,300
So imagine you have a decks on 
one chain and you want to make 

920
00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:47,200
another decks, another chain 
that decks wants to launch a 

921
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,300
subduction of the chain, right? 
The subjects is own separate 

922
00:46:50,300 --> 00:46:52,200
liquidity. 
Right? 

923
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,000
So it's gonna have to own issue 
of liquidity and is very small, 

924
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,300
is not really that popular, but 
actually have all the credit 

925
00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:00,600
other chain, but maybe I could 
actually not make it generic 

926
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,700
protocol that works for anyone. 
But I will make a special 

927
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:07,100
contract between my sub parent 
deck to my child actors, like a 

928
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,300
permission IBC content. 
Like a like an encrypted or 

929
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,400
authenticated IBC connection. 
That just runs from my parent 

930
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,700
decks to my child X, right? 
And I will move 1% my liquidity 

931
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:22,800
over here but I like it. 
Have price information of all 

932
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,200
the rest, liquidity over here. 
So here's actually reference 

933
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,000
price. 
The reference price is here, 

934
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,900
right? 
And you actually had the full 

935
00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:32,300
reference price here and that's 
actually what you use over here.

936
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,100
You will assume they have that 
value and you can trade a little

937
00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:40,300
bit liquidy very quickly just 
like ATM or branch bank and so 

938
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:43,700
maybe it's a minute out of date 
of the actual price over here, 

939
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:44,900
right? 
And you have a little slippage 

940
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:47,100
here. 
You can maybe, but you only can 

941
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:49,900
move a 1% liquidity, only can 
pull a little bit windy out 

942
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:50,800
here. 
You can't put too much out 

943
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,700
anyway, right? 
Like you can't put too much over

944
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:56,100
here, so if you run it you run 
in it and they get a new price 

945
00:47:56,100 --> 00:47:58,500
update. 
But the meantime or things are 

946
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:02,300
not moving too heavily, you 
basically get immediately 

947
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:04,000
access, you have to call IBC 
swaps. 

948
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,800
You get immediate access like a 
local decks like immediate swap 

949
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,000
response right away. 
Immediate responses from a decks

950
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,800
locally with the same liquidity 
effectively as the parent decks.

951
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,300
So they basically shifted this 
as a branch Bank. 

952
00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:20,700
This able to provide a virtual 
liquidity and much higher 

953
00:48:20,700 --> 00:48:23,700
amounts and still Guard against 
Bank runs, which I think is 

954
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:26,500
pretty amazing. 
And like this idea of like 

955
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:29,600
Protocols are not just like 
copying themself over change, or

956
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,200
you're just like, okay, we're 
like kind of like something like

957
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,400
that. 
Like, we've moved collateral 

958
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,300
over change, but actually 
integrating operations over 

959
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:40,500
multiple chains, is I think a 
revolutionary concept that no 

960
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:43,200
one is really grasped or even 
build out yet. 

961
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,900
So I think one project I'll be 
doing besides knocking stuff out

962
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:49,100
like, you know, here's how you 
swap on a Juno's. 

963
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:52,600
Moses, you know, swap on as most
as dead from Juneau with IBC 

964
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,000
message and you know, this has 
been a discussion for a while 

965
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,800
now since Lisbon and besides 
that kind of stuff I want to 

966
00:49:00,808 --> 00:49:02,300
work on basically building up 
next. 

967
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:05,600
Integrations of multi, chain 
applications are truly multi 

968
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,500
chain deliver multiple change 
and like balance maturity model 

969
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:12,000
change. 
Thanks so much for the 

970
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,800
explanation. 
That is very cool. 

971
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,100
And like, yeah, it's just 
amazingly powerful, right? 

972
00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:20,300
Like, that's where you really 
see the kind of like multi 

973
00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:23,200
chain. 
I mean already, the cosmos 

974
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,300
ecosystem is like had such an 
explosion of activity and, you 

975
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:30,000
know, we've seen IBC be so 
powerful just for talking 

976
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,300
transfer and I was always the 
thing that shocked me the most 

977
00:49:34,300 --> 00:49:36,800
with IBC, you're surprised me 
the most was just like, how 

978
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,500
actually good to user experience
was, you know, I think, what's 

979
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:45,800
most Like really great job at 
that and not just as Moses like 

980
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:50,200
others. 
But in now I think having all of

981
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:57,100
these more advanced things, 
right with with, you know, more 

982
00:49:57,100 --> 00:49:59,900
powerful, IVC stuff with cousin 
was mm. 

983
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,100
It's going to be really like 
weird and mind-bending. 

984
00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:06,200
I think when those come come 
out. 

985
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,800
You were going bought a chain 
wallet involved have to suggest.

986
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,000
I think there's an amazing job 
they did as Moses. 

987
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:14,700
I agree. 
It was amazing job at it. 

988
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,700
For ux like, when it came out, 
they basically listed all of 

989
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:21,100
your accounts on 10 different, 
chains or 20 different chains, 

990
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:22,700
right? 
Like I'm one little board. 

991
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:26,800
You hit the pause withdraw. 
Like, you have to go some other 

992
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,400
account and do something and 
then like, sign into other other

993
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:30,400
blockchain app. 
Over there. 

994
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,000
Go to a bridge, weight, 
whatever. 

995
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,700
Know he's like, honest Moses 
app. 

996
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:37,200
It shows you when you click the 
button deposit like it actually 

997
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,200
under the hood call. 
Another chain to tell him to 

998
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,100
transfer it signs a transfer, my
situation related to move over 

999
00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:46,100
there and 10 seconds. 20 seconds
later in your account like with 

1000
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:49,300
an almost no fees like that's 
super fast and super cheap and 

1001
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:51,400
you only have to worry about it.
All you remember is like, oh my 

1002
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:52,900
ledge. 
I see different chain ID on this

1003
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:53,900
thing. 
I'm signing it. 

1004
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,800
But like it's really like so 
transparent and that was amazing

1005
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,400
to really make that whole like 
you can Bridge liquidity, it 

1006
00:51:01,408 --> 00:51:03,600
transparent. 
So, I think, once you build 

1007
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,000
these things I'm talking about 
behind the scenes and the back 

1008
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,600
end like this, what a friends. 
They're so transparent, right? 

1009
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,600
Like they just are smooth and 
think they did a killer job and 

1010
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,300
ux and love to see what the you 
know. 

1011
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:17,800
Have those people also involved 
in these next level discussions 

1012
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,000
and see what kind of ux they can
design for these multi chain 

1013
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,600
world. 
One question I have here is, you

1014
00:51:25,607 --> 00:51:30,100
know, one of the big arguments 
that the theorem is always made 

1015
00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:33,700
and that's some other chains 
like Salon I for example was 

1016
00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:37,300
also emphasizing a lot of. 
Is this idea of like you know, 

1017
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:41,900
composer Ability and it's such 
an advantage to have, you know, 

1018
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:48,300
contracts that are in the same 
VM, you know, where you can, you

1019
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:50,600
can like make like Atomic 
transactions, right? 

1020
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,800
Like make one transaction that 
affects like, you know, 

1021
00:51:52,808 --> 00:51:57,600
different contracts in the same 
transaction and, you know, it 

1022
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,500
all executes at the same time or
it fails. 

1023
00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:05,800
How, how do you see that? 
Because that's that was often. 

1024
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,600
Also, one of the criticisms 
right of the kind of Cosmos. 

1025
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,400
IBC concept is because, you 
know, you have like a 

1026
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,900
transaction happening on chain a
and then it triggers something 

1027
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,400
on chain be. 
But do you know, you can sort of

1028
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,500
make the transaction to, like, 
trigger something on chain a and

1029
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:27,500
chain be like simultaneously 
that talk a little bit about 

1030
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:31,800
like how do you see these this 
issue and how do you think that 

1031
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,400
what Impact of that going to be 
when you actually have into 

1032
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,700
chain applications, the way you 
described. 

1033
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,200
I think it's a good point and I 
think this message is harder 

1034
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:48,100
it's not were so it's easier to 
called locally and I think the 

1035
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:50,500
idea, the app chain where every 
app had one little use case, 

1036
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:52,600
right? 
Like one is just add x. + 1 is 

1037
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,000
just tokens and one is in the 
fifties and one is a landing 

1038
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,300
protocol. 
And one is like this other 

1039
00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:58,400
little piece and actually need 
five change. 

1040
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,600
We're going to useful device, 
ecosystem is kind of limited, 

1041
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:04,100
right? 
So I think the extension 

1042
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:07,000
adapting if you're going like 
actually maximalist everyone 

1043
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,100
like a little looking to hit the
limits. 

1044
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:12,700
However A lot of the new 
architectures are going for this

1045
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:14,600
thing. 
Like near sharding, already is 

1046
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,500
like a sickness caused any way 
between event and they realize 

1047
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:20,300
that they can't scale up and 
like a theorem hit the limit and

1048
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:22,000
ever roll ups and so effectively
like yeah. 

1049
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,400
Okay, you can pose a theory on 
but like every girl's a polygon 

1050
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:29,100
or arbitrary more something that
optimism and like Phantom and 

1051
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:30,400
they're like just throwing 
somewhere else because they 

1052
00:53:30,408 --> 00:53:32,600
can't now there's like crappy 
Bridges between them. 

1053
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,400
They are like hacks all the time
because actually like composable

1054
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,100
hits limit. 
Then in slums like we're 

1055
00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:39,600
Portuguese scale. 
But like we're centralized VC 

1056
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,600
chain that like V every, you 
know, every two weeks. 

1057
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:43,600
So like they have limits here, 
right? 

1058
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,800
Answer clearly like having not 
just vertical but horizontal 

1059
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,600
scalability gives you so much 
more resilience, right? 

1060
00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:53,100
The problem is how do you do it?
So thank you. 

1061
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,400
Want to have like a useful model
commit for Taps, always work 

1062
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,200
together all the time. 
They should be the same chain, 

1063
00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:00,400
they should be composed, really 
nicely, they're really tightly 

1064
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:01,800
integrated. 
They should integrate one chain 

1065
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,400
but their, their apps that we 
don't interfere with all the 

1066
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,000
time. 
We negate them, you know, 

1067
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:08,300
occasionally, right? 
Or every few hours or like we 

1068
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:12,100
don't call like, in all the 
time, So like, in Quicksilver 

1069
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:15,300
quicksilver's on one chain and 
Stakes on the Hub, and it 

1070
00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:17,500
doesn't need to be there like 
every single transaction. 

1071
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:19,900
It just needs to know how to 
like a deposit or withdrawal 

1072
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:21,800
handle some stuff. 
It does its own things, but 

1073
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,500
they'll have to be like this, 
they just have to be able to 

1074
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,100
securely be able to actually 
operations. 

1075
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,400
So I think it's a whole class of
things that don't need this 

1076
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:35,400
immediately. 
See that possibility and then 

1077
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:36,500
just come to the point of 
design. 

1078
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:38,500
It protocol design. 
So, I mean, a lot of dead skin 

1079
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:40,500
from JavaScript and have issues 
of this stuff but like you 

1080
00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:42,700
Becoming becoming a JavaScript 
dumbbell. 

1081
00:54:42,700 --> 00:54:46,000
IBC straight upright. 
Like what come from like a 

1082
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,200
serious, like background in 
distributed systems or like 

1083
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,200
architectures. 
Like protocol design you have 

1084
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,500
must have wrestled with like 
actually like okay, what's a 

1085
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:58,500
Master Slave and like multiple 
Master database systems or like 

1086
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:02,200
message to use and like Concepts
like this back-end Concepts it. 

1087
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,700
Like I don't need a phds. 
I'm just saying that, like, 

1088
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:07,000
someone's rest with a lot of 
these stuff. 

1089
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,800
They've had actually large scale
back and web systems have Have 

1090
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,000
distribute Nature's and you have
to learn this stuff anyway so 

1091
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,500
like once you've dealt with this
stuff microservices you kind of 

1092
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:16,600
get some ideas. 
Okay? 

1093
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:21,000
How to architect stuff and these
ideas are the same ideas in 5 

1094
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,200
BC, so it's just like a 
different concept. 

1095
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,500
So I think a lot of his 
training, your mindset how to 

1096
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:28,700
design them, but what design, 
properly takes more time design,

1097
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,700
it should be easy to implement 
and they can be able to do most 

1098
00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:35,000
things as long as you can wait a
little bit and you don't need 

1099
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,700
that giving a pose. 
It's like I do action at hold it

1100
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:40,500
like a token transfer if it 
fails or turns your money, 

1101
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,200
Atomic. 
It is atomic over a longer time 

1102
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,200
span. 
So you can build all of that 

1103
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,500
functionality is just a little 
hard to design it. 

1104
00:55:47,500 --> 00:55:50,400
That's all. 
And so clearly, if you want to 

1105
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,700
have things always together, you
stick them together and same 

1106
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:54,700
changes, great. 
But like if they need to be a 

1107
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:57,400
little looser, coupling you can 
have very secure loose. 

1108
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,400
Couplings over multiple change. 
Cool. 

1109
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,000
Yeah, thanks so much and yeah, I
think the near point was 

1110
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,400
interesting because I did the 
podcast will be, we on Alexander

1111
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:11,700
like a few, I don't know. 
Previously, two months ago, 

1112
00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:13,800
something like that. 
And that was a disappearing. 

1113
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,100
We just talked about there as 
well, and I thought it was very 

1114
00:56:16,100 --> 00:56:22,100
fascinating, how they are, you 
know, chose to do to have this 

1115
00:56:22,100 --> 00:56:26,100
kind of asynchronous nature even
if contracts are on the same 

1116
00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:28,600
chart, you know? 
Because they were like the 

1117
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:33,400
benefits outweigh Having this 
composability because it allows 

1118
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,800
them to you know, move contracts
between different charts and the

1119
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,300
developer sort of it doesn't 
have to care, right? 

1120
00:56:39,300 --> 00:56:44,000
Like where they are because they
behave the same way and so that 

1121
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,500
was a very interesting. 
Yeah, like different 

1122
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:49,200
perspective. 
Yeah. 

1123
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:50,400
I like yeah. 
There's my guys. 

1124
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:54,700
Yeah, absolutely governance. 
He wanted to talk about 

1125
00:56:54,700 --> 00:56:56,700
governance as well. 
What's on your mind when it 

1126
00:56:56,700 --> 00:56:59,600
comes to governance? 
Getting governance is like the 

1127
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,200
onions for its territory and I 
mean you were also around when 

1128
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,700
you're trying to design the POS 
governance for that and I think 

1129
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:10,600
in 2017 actually having some 
like on chain vote control. 

1130
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,600
Critical blocking features was 
like this crazy idea of heresy 

1131
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,600
almost you know, hardfocus only 
way voting right? 

1132
00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:20,900
Like so it's normal. 
Now that is on chain governance 

1133
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:23,400
doing things like switching 
parameters and you know 

1134
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,800
releasing funds and you know 
controlling upgrades that's 

1135
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,000
normal. 
These days, right? 

1136
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,600
But they got was kind of like 
five years ago like crazy and 

1137
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,600
like POS was like this crazy 
invention that no one trusted 

1138
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,100
actually work and py W is only 
way. 

1139
00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:38,600
So these are proved themselves 
and I think you watch that same 

1140
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,300
Evolution the same way that Dows
have now come from mainstream 

1141
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:45,600
suddenly, they realize, okay, 
open up this up and now people's

1142
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,800
rusted and forehead, like those 
run, everything is doubt, throw 

1143
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:49,400
tokens on their block them. 
They're great. 

1144
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,200
And I think it's a problem 
because the same people that 

1145
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,100
were nay saying it for years, 
didn't really learn, just how 

1146
00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:57,000
government works. 
Let's use it, copy it, blindly 

1147
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,500
copy paste. 
And are now producing a lot of 

1148
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:02,600
bad designs actually. 
A governor signs, he's never 

1149
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:03,600
really understood. 
Why? 

1150
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,300
It worked the first place. 
So, there's some doubt, they 

1151
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:09,000
were quite well. 
A lot of those are 

1152
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,400
membership-based ones, which 
actually like one person, one 

1153
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,800
vote, and they actually have 
like time trusted ones. 

1154
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:15,800
Those can work amazingly. 
Well, right. 

1155
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:20,800
Like more locked out something 
and or even nouns I think are 

1156
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:22,200
interesting. 
A lot of these other ones are 

1157
00:58:22,207 --> 00:58:25,100
just like one taco and votes, 
take it pump and dump things 

1158
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:28,100
like people, it is, they 
flashed. 

1159
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:31,600
Borrowing tokens to take over 
the governance this happened 

1160
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:35,500
before I write like and I think 
like wait you can't have a flash

1161
00:58:35,500 --> 00:58:38,100
loan, be able over the governs 
of your protocol is not secure 

1162
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:39,400
anymore. 
It's like giving up. 

1163
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:40,900
You vote financialized, your 
protocol. 

1164
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:42,500
So think is he safe guards 
there? 

1165
00:58:42,500 --> 00:58:45,600
So I've been think about this 
like since I have launched and 

1166
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,700
since like you know Sonny this 
famous 0% attack commission 

1167
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:52,100
attack attack, whatever on the 
Hub, like we're like their 

1168
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:54,500
issues with this governance, 
like you can do lots of things 

1169
00:58:54,500 --> 00:58:56,200
with, it's very powerful, but 
has limits yet. 

1170
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,100
Understand the limits, you 
understand what it works. 

1171
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:58,900
It doesn't work. 
Right? 

1172
00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:01,800
Really understand this situation
and I've been like, I felt like 

1173
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,700
I was doing a voice in the 
wilderness for a long time 

1174
00:59:03,700 --> 00:59:05,800
because like, everything no 
doubt, it's work, great as just 

1175
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,500
a hub is works. 
And like it works for the Hub. 

1176
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:08,600
It's not work for your little 
chain. 

1177
00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:10,700
That has a ten million market 
cap or 5 million market cap. 

1178
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:13,000
It might not be secure, is to 
give the Hub that is a real 

1179
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,700
community. 
And has proven a lot of these 

1180
00:59:15,700 --> 00:59:18,900
gals have small, market caps are
insecure with this with their 

1181
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:22,800
logic and I think it wasn't till
I pushed up here. 

1182
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,600
We actually at the talk, I did. 
I didn't read foundations 

1183
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,400
without proof of Engagement 
which was like a proof of 

1184
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,700
authority. 
Proof of stake mixing. 

1185
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:33,400
They got like no traction and I 
wrote a white paper next year 

1186
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,200
and we build a 40 grade. 
So I'm, you know, if someone's 

1187
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,100
will have proof of Engagement, 
look at T, great. 

1188
00:59:38,100 --> 00:59:40,500
Every medium article explained 
technically how it works, it's 

1189
00:59:40,500 --> 00:59:43,900
like proof of an authority and 
proof of stake together, an 

1190
00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:46,200
Imaging function, which I think 
is interesting privileges. 

1191
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,300
I could go on for a long thing 
but it's one piece of 

1192
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:53,300
experimentation, right? 
Of this of what you have to 

1193
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:56,300
prove steak. 
Did the Pope's take authority, 

1194
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,800
you can decide other systems. 
And I think we really need to 

1195
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,500
experiment, understand limits of
the systems, we have understand 

1196
01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:06,600
where they work well, and where 
they don't work, and it was 

1197
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,600
really like metallic last summer
in summer 2021. 

1198
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,300
You posted beyond the coin, 
waited talking with the 

1199
01:00:13,300 --> 01:00:18,600
governance, I believe in terms 
of the D gov and where the 

1200
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,500
limits are, and it's kind of 
theoretical thing you talk about

1201
01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:23,500
soulbound tokens now. 
And for me, that's like, okay, 

1202
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,300
sure that's why I was, pitching 
covid-19 that we have soulbound 

1203
01:00:26,300 --> 01:00:28,100
tokens which are basically proof
of authority. 

1204
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,700
Which you have engagement who 
reputation, but your reputation 

1205
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:34,800
is token cannot transfer, okay? 
Clearly got Transportation sell 

1206
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,600
it. 
Do you have your reputation on 

1207
01:00:36,607 --> 01:00:39,900
the change cannot sell or buy, 
which is your time in the chain 

1208
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,500
and if your money, so, if you're
like the old-time, this done 

1209
01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:43,900
stuff, but don't have any money 
on the game. 

1210
01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:46,600
You should have any vote and you
have much money, but no say and 

1211
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,600
do anything. 
Who are you? 

1212
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,600
Just like this mixture of like 
actually having done work and 

1213
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,400
actually having money on the 
table and like putting your 

1214
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,200
money, where your mouth is. 
So I think that combination is 

1215
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,100
what experiment improve 
engagement T grade. 

1216
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,100
And it's just one experiment, 
right? 

1217
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:02,400
Just one experiment here. 
Is that the answer. 

1218
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,700
I think it's an interesting 
space we opened up and I think I

1219
01:01:05,707 --> 01:01:08,300
look at Dow Dow which is a 
really, really cool project on 

1220
01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:09,900
Juno. 
So you know, big Heritage, a 

1221
01:01:09,900 --> 01:01:14,100
cartel for doing that one. 
They've had like no raise self, 

1222
01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:18,400
organized Community just doing 
things they've gotten like over 

1223
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,100
dozen deaths I believe without 
funding just believing Dallas 

1224
01:01:22,100 --> 01:01:24,600
which is I think it's the most 
successful is the most 

1225
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,200
successful nandi 5 project the 
on cosmology. 

1226
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:32,400
Mmm, so dou dou that zone and 
you can launch your own doubt 

1227
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,000
like that and so they have you 
know multisig type gals. 

1228
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,300
Like you vote people in. 
It's just you know who those who

1229
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,700
you have doubts, based on 
tokens, just like the standard. 

1230
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:42,800
I was just in theorem 
everywhere. 

1231
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:49,200
You have doubts basing nft 
holding you have Dows with mixed

1232
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,300
token waiting. 
We're building a module to 

1233
01:01:52,300 --> 01:01:55,500
extend it for window, which is 
using like curved style 

1234
01:01:55,700 --> 01:01:59,500
multi-level token waiting and 
like to take that One and any it

1235
01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:02,800
will sub dowels work flows 
between like you can partially 

1236
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,500
delegate Authority a stubbed out
as these people is supported 

1237
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:08,400
here through overridden and 
these larger stuff like Aragon 

1238
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,000
is building back on a theorem 
before they kind of died out a 

1239
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,200
petered out there. 
Building all these cool tooling 

1240
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,100
out there so I think it's a 
great tool kit because it 

1241
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:20,900
building a lot of components to 
allow people to mostly point and

1242
01:02:20,900 --> 01:02:24,900
click on the web interface 
Builder, own doubts but access 

1243
01:02:24,900 --> 01:02:26,400
to all kinds of different 
models. 

1244
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,400
All kinds different rules and 
and I built a lot of these early

1245
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:34,300
contracts in 2020 2021 is like 
demo contraction, multi cigs and

1246
01:02:34,300 --> 01:02:37,500
voting stuff and they took this 
stuff at built UI and is went 

1247
01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:39,500
with it, they like they gone Way
Beyond why bill. 

1248
01:02:39,500 --> 01:02:42,200
So I'm really really impressed 
with them and I think it really 

1249
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,400
you know shows that Cosmos is 
not a theory of, its Cosmos is 

1250
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,500
really the Forefront of 
governance and it has been I 

1251
01:02:48,508 --> 01:02:52,100
mean like what was launched the 
Hub was already Cutting Edge 

1252
01:02:52,100 --> 01:02:56,900
like on chain governance and POS
was cutting edge in 2019 right 

1253
01:02:56,900 --> 01:03:00,600
in 2017 on believe Who work in 
2019 is launched and made it as 

1254
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:02,600
Cutting Edge. 
And I think Dallas bring this 

1255
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,000
like the next level of this 
really bringing like new ideas, 

1256
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:10,100
a governance to new level. 
Yeah, I know. 

1257
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,700
I mean I think that's something 
I think also you know we talked 

1258
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:16,000
about mentioned this on this 
podcast before but that's just 

1259
01:03:16,100 --> 01:03:19,400
like stands out to me so much. 
Like actually I remember when 

1260
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:24,700
you know when we work on Cosmos 
in 2017 I mean there was there 

1261
01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:28,300
were others right who were 
basically like other blockchains

1262
01:03:28,300 --> 01:03:32,200
proof of stake blockchains there
were also you know having 

1263
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,800
specifically taser some polka 
dot righted. 

1264
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,200
Also had the kind of governance 
mechanisms in there and they 

1265
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,500
talked a lot. 
About like oh you know, how they

1266
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:44,900
have this, like elegant powerful
complex going in scheme and I 

1267
01:03:44,908 --> 01:03:48,100
feel like the cosmos it was more
like, yeah, we're gonna have 

1268
01:03:48,100 --> 01:03:51,000
this governance, right. 
But it wasn't so much at the at 

1269
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,500
the front and center and it was 
also kind of simple in 

1270
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:57,700
comparison. 
But you know, if he can get his 

1271
01:03:57,700 --> 01:04:02,500
ended up like I mean I think 
polkadot governance is just like

1272
01:04:02,500 --> 01:04:06,000
very confusing and nothing too 
complicated and I was like 

1273
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,000
reading at some point that 
they're actually moving to a 

1274
01:04:08,008 --> 01:04:12,300
more Oh, style model. 
I'm not totally sure if this is 

1275
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:17,800
true or not or if I misread 
that, but and then Hazel's, I 

1276
01:04:17,808 --> 01:04:20,900
think the big issue is that, you
know, only valid is could vote, 

1277
01:04:20,900 --> 01:04:22,800
which is not ideal. 
No. 

1278
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,900
Like, I mean, I should, I think 
anyone's having to call him. 

1279
01:04:25,900 --> 01:04:29,200
Small was really like, just very
nice right? 

1280
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,000
That you have like validate. 
This will by default but then 

1281
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,100
individual token of this can 
override it. 

1282
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,500
And what I think has been just 
amazing. 

1283
01:04:36,500 --> 01:04:38,800
It's like the amount of adoption
that has gotten right, right. 

1284
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,300
Have like on the cosmos hop. 
You know often like you know, 

1285
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,300
eighty thousand accounts or 
somebody at that or you know 

1286
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,500
voting and you know, same as 
Moses like huge participation. 

1287
01:04:52,900 --> 01:04:54,600
But then of course you're 
totally right, right? 

1288
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,700
Like this is just one form of 
governance and it makes sense 

1289
01:04:57,700 --> 01:05:02,000
for some forms but like it's 
there's obviously also downsides

1290
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,100
there, right? 
That you have okay someone who 

1291
01:05:04,100 --> 01:05:07,500
million tokens and there's 
someone else with 100 tokens and

1292
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:11,100
the person with 100 tokens maybe
like super engaged, know a lot. 

1293
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:16,900
And so that's, you know, it's a 
hard problem, but at least I 

1294
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:22,000
feel like to recall some small 
has already gotten gotten pretty

1295
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,100
far and works pretty well and 
he's gotten surprising amount of

1296
01:05:25,100 --> 01:05:28,300
Engagement and you know, we're 
excited to see. 

1297
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:31,400
I like the kind of doll down 
like the other models that can 

1298
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,900
be built. 
Yeah, I think the cosmology 

1299
01:05:35,900 --> 01:05:39,200
Works quite well for most cases 
if there's engage Community. 

1300
01:05:39,500 --> 01:05:42,000
Like, you know, if if most token
holders care about the chain, 

1301
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:44,500
right? 
And are right, you actually 

1302
01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:47,300
having each community and you 
have like solid market cap, like

1303
01:05:47,300 --> 01:05:49,800
it works pretty well actually. 
But those are yes. 

1304
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:52,600
So like, when you see a chain 
with not much usage and the 

1305
01:05:52,607 --> 01:05:54,900
market cap drops to 1 or 2 
million this bear Market which 

1306
01:05:54,900 --> 01:05:57,900
has happened. 
It's a problem. 

1307
01:05:57,900 --> 01:06:00,500
And what happened to Tara, like,
when they invented five billion 

1308
01:06:00,500 --> 01:06:02,000
lunar five trillion lunar. 
I don't know. 

1309
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,100
Five quadrillion. 
Luna, I'm not sure how many They

1310
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:07,900
halted voting because it is a 
heart attack like some random 

1311
01:06:07,900 --> 01:06:09,600
person. 
It just bought this for, like, 

1312
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,600
point, zero, zero, zero, zero. 1
cent has now infantry 

1313
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:13,700
governance. 
They could delegate their 

1314
01:06:13,700 --> 01:06:15,400
thinking taking the whole chain,
right? 

1315
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,400
Like, like they realized the 
limit of it. 

1316
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,600
And so this is I'm saying this 
failure modes in it right there,

1317
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:25,300
failure to be aware of and that 
is Extreme failure mode but I 

1318
01:06:25,300 --> 01:06:28,600
think any of these small chains 
is under 5 million, 10 million 

1319
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,900
market cap and has low 
engagement is just basically 

1320
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:33,300
waiting for it. 
And so if they were ever 

1321
01:06:33,300 --> 01:06:36,300
actually had a higher At one 
point them down to this level. 

1322
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,300
That means someone's going to 
snap them up, right? 

1323
01:06:38,300 --> 01:06:42,200
So, I think it means just like 
the, the POS works. 

1324
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,400
Well, if you said, hey, token 
pose, actually, engaged and 

1325
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,500
there's a solid market cap. 
No random Schmo. 

1326
01:06:49,100 --> 01:06:52,100
Hacker can just buy a bunch of 
tokens and like, take over 

1327
01:06:52,100 --> 01:06:55,100
because like you can't write, 
you can't fight him out because 

1328
01:06:55,100 --> 01:06:59,100
people care about stuff. 
But yeah, and I think it works 

1329
01:06:59,100 --> 01:07:02,100
well in the suit of like, you 
know, the decision about or 

1330
01:07:02,100 --> 01:07:04,400
should we go there or should we 
do this, right? 

1331
01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:09,500
But what it doesn't but it 
doesn't really work well for is 

1332
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:15,800
a sort of, you know, organizing 
work, and collaborating to do 

1333
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,200
stuff. 
So for example, I think the 

1334
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:24,400
whole mechanisms of like using 
governance to, you know, for 

1335
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:30,200
proposals for funding proposals,
I think is not work. 

1336
01:07:30,300 --> 01:07:33,600
I mean, it sort of works but 
it's not ideal, right? 

1337
01:07:33,900 --> 01:07:36,300
Because I think, And you know, 
someone proposes, something, 

1338
01:07:36,300 --> 01:07:38,500
people are like, all right, that
sounds reasonable and they 

1339
01:07:38,500 --> 01:07:40,400
defined it. 
But like was that the best thing

1340
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,300
to fund and like maybe something
else that like or in a different

1341
01:07:43,300 --> 01:07:45,100
way or someone else had to say 
my dear. 

1342
01:07:45,100 --> 01:07:47,600
And like, so I think that's for 
example. 

1343
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,300
One thing where like the 
existing governance I feel is 

1344
01:07:52,100 --> 01:07:55,200
isn't great. 
Yeah, I think this is cool 

1345
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,000
things out as working sub dials 
actually can like take the 

1346
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,000
sticking vote as like the basis 
of who is voting power. 

1347
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,500
Have your own different Logic on
it or like subgroups of them can

1348
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:06,800
vote on it. 
So they were like not even no 

1349
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,100
tokens. 
Actually sticking took out the 

1350
01:08:08,107 --> 01:08:11,100
day of thing and then also 
allowing sub Dallas like okay 

1351
01:08:11,100 --> 01:08:15,500
these Dow is appointed by the 
main the main governance. 

1352
01:08:15,500 --> 01:08:20,200
Now point this Dow to do some 
things like voting funding with 

1353
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,600
some sort of budget, right? 
And they the but the apparent, 

1354
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:25,899
Can we vote them? 
Hey, this committee is not 

1355
01:08:25,899 --> 01:08:27,500
working very well. 
Get rid of these guys, you know 

1356
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:30,300
they just wish the money like 
but so you'll have to have the 

1357
01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:32,600
80,000 people involved every 
funding discussion. 

1358
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,399
Negotiations. 
You actually have negotiations 

1359
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:37,600
with the counterparty and they 
can spend, you know, a million 

1360
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,500
or two a month maybe on funding 
projects and ecosystem. 

1361
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,200
And if the money is going to bad
places, you just basically swap 

1362
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,700
them out with someone else, 
right? 

1363
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:47,899
So like, and that might make 
sense in a way of more 

1364
01:08:47,899 --> 01:08:50,300
decentralized and saying, you 
know, Foundation, it's a trend 

1365
01:08:50,300 --> 01:08:52,000
in transparent Foundation 
funding stuff, right? 

1366
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,899
Like, I could actually allow 
decentralized way of doing it. 

1367
01:08:54,100 --> 01:08:56,399
It's actually control 
volunteering governance but 

1368
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:58,000
still, you're right. 
Like you don't need 80,000 

1369
01:08:58,000 --> 01:08:59,399
people discussion when someone's
trying to go. 

1370
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:01,899
She ate like a funding. 
I will do this feature for your 

1371
01:09:01,899 --> 01:09:03,700
chain and then like, you're 
like, okay, I'm waiting two 

1372
01:09:03,700 --> 01:09:05,600
months in public discussions, to
figure out whether like a funny 

1373
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:06,800
or not. 
I'm going somewhere else. 

1374
01:09:06,899 --> 01:09:10,399
It's a lot faster, but I think 
you can definitely do it. 

1375
01:09:10,399 --> 01:09:12,399
And I think, yeah, that allows 
you to add that onto existing 

1376
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:15,000
governance and kind of did not 
replace the standard one but 

1377
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,700
like extent places with this. 
Cool. 

1378
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,000
Well, thanks so much ease and it
was really, really great to have

1379
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,000
you on, like, you mentioned 
called, you know, the cause and 

1380
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:28,399
wasn't Academy. 
Maybe that's something some 

1381
01:09:28,399 --> 01:09:31,500
people may be interested in. 
Can you tell a bit more about 

1382
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:32,800
that? 
Like, you know, if people want 

1383
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:36,800
to kind of get started and 
developing on top of calls and 

1384
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,100
was mm like where should they 
go? 

1385
01:09:39,100 --> 01:09:41,800
And like what's the kind of 
offering that caused some 

1386
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,600
awesome Academy has for them? 
Cool. 

1387
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,000
So yeah, the cosmos of Academy 
academy.com. 

1388
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:53,399
Some awesome.com is can sign up 
now, we'll be opening up. 

1389
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:57,100
I believe early September, maybe
mid September. 

1390
01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,700
Let's see how the times lines 
are Slip a little bit. 

1391
01:09:59,700 --> 01:10:01,800
We're going for quite a while 
with quite a few videos online. 

1392
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,000
The platform is already aligned,
we're trying to finish up first 

1393
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,400
version of it. 
We preview already in sales, but

1394
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,000
yeah, in a few weeks early, mid 
September, we have a going on 

1395
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:15,800
sign up there, you will get 
Basically bottom and top Rush 

1396
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:21,200
courses explaining how to build 
contracts in rust from an expert

1397
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,000
train developer at can feos 
working a year and a half. 

1398
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,400
Now with us building, all kinds 
of Rush, contracts and building 

1399
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:28,800
a costume, awesome, and 
multitask. 

1400
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,600
And lots of these toolings used 
going through how to build 

1401
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,000
contract explaining Ross. 
Explaining contract logic, 

1402
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:35,300
explain how to build everything 
up there. 

1403
01:10:35,300 --> 01:10:37,700
So if you have basic, Russ, 
knowledge, sign up for that 

1404
01:10:37,700 --> 01:10:40,400
class and it will take you into 
like Advanced custom awesome 

1405
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:42,700
development. 
I think this is really a way we 

1406
01:10:42,700 --> 01:10:45,700
want to do democratized People, 
so really get the skills of how 

1407
01:10:45,700 --> 01:10:48,200
to build a good cause I'm 
awesome contracts out there and 

1408
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,900
complex columns and contract. 
How to compose contracts, how to

1409
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:54,100
build these systems out there. 
And when everyone is for 

1410
01:10:54,100 --> 01:10:56,500
everyone, it's free. 
So, yeah, it's basically us 

1411
01:10:56,500 --> 01:10:59,000
trying to train out a whole new 
generation of really skilled 

1412
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,800
Cosmos developers. 
That's amazing. 

1413
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,100
Cool. 
And how long is the course? 

1414
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,000
The course of 10 weeks. 
It's a attend classes there. 

1415
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,900
One week long. 
There's some take a look for you

1416
01:11:08,900 --> 01:11:12,000
to do with them. 
You probably have faster if 

1417
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,500
you're skilled already, but 
yeah, it's a 10 Weaklings. 

1418
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,700
Who fantastic? 
That sounds like a great 

1419
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:18,000
experience. 
Yeah, yeah, no. 

1420
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,300
It should be. 
And I definitely is for, 

1421
01:11:19,300 --> 01:11:21,500
everyone is for the people and 
feedbacks. 

1422
01:11:21,500 --> 01:11:23,800
Welcome, please give feedback 
out there. 

1423
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:25,900
If you have stuff going to get 
better, we'll have other stuff 

1424
01:11:25,900 --> 01:11:28,300
on kazim. 
JS, + 4 n Stuff coming later as 

1425
01:11:28,300 --> 01:11:31,300
well at the questions. 
We have also some full-stack 

1426
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:33,600
courses coming up a lined up for
you. 

1427
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:38,300
I also wanted to mention Huynh 
Dao briefly, and so there's I 

1428
01:11:38,300 --> 01:11:41,000
mentioned earlier, it's 
basically a dowel we're 

1429
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,100
launching, or have launched on 
Jun 04. 

1430
01:11:43,900 --> 01:11:48,300
For doing IBC based contract. 
I think it was going to be The 

1431
01:11:48,300 --> 01:11:50,900
Cutting Edge of a lot of this 
stuff scaling out, protocols, 

1432
01:11:50,900 --> 01:11:53,500
both vert horizontally, not 
vertically or horizontally. 

1433
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:55,300
I think it's very interesting 
stuff. 

1434
01:11:55,300 --> 01:11:58,700
We building out there to reach 
huge scales and really push 

1435
01:11:58,700 --> 01:12:00,700
Ibis. 
You can do and how it can make 

1436
01:12:00,700 --> 01:12:02,500
like an actual entertaining of 
protocols. 

1437
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,300
There is an air drop out there. 
I want to say if you get this 

1438
01:12:06,300 --> 01:12:09,400
before end of August until 
August 2020, we have an airdrop 

1439
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,100
airdrop dot wind down. 
A.com win with a why and check 

1440
01:12:13,100 --> 01:12:16,400
out more there. 
For all Juno Osman region 

1441
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:20,100
stickers. 
Okay, I'll check that out as 

1442
01:12:20,100 --> 01:12:21,000
well. 
Cool. 

1443
01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:23,600
Well, thanks so much Ethan for 
coming on. 

1444
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,300
It was really great to have you 
on the podcast. 

1445
01:12:26,300 --> 01:12:28,900
It's amazing. 
Like all of the work you've done

1446
01:12:28,900 --> 01:12:32,900
and we've contributed to the 
cosmos ecosystem and I'm super 

1447
01:12:32,900 --> 01:12:35,400
excited to see, like, you know, 
what do people going to build in

1448
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,600
this like you know next 
generation of stuff that's going

1449
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,700
to come with, you know cause and
walls. 

1450
01:12:39,700 --> 01:12:43,100
Mm and mixing that with you 
know, to new IBC capabilities 

1451
01:12:43,100 --> 01:12:45,600
and then move all these people 
going to be trained to cause an 

1452
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:49,000
awesome Academy Yeah, I'm 
excited. 

1453
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,800
I'm excited. 
I was dreaming of IBC since 

1454
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,200
like, you know, five years now, 
six years now of like what we 

1455
01:12:53,208 --> 01:12:55,600
can do. 
So we're ecosystems here. 

1456
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:57,400
Everything's ready the tools. 
Already infrastructure 

1457
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,200
foundations. 
Ready and like let's just build 

1458
01:12:59,700 --> 01:13:03,200
this guy's cool. 
And yeah, check out cause I'm 

1459
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,600
awesome. 
Check out chat Discord website. 

1460
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:08,200
Everything is on their chat. 
That Colin was not calm for 

1461
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:09,600
Discord. 
Lots of good help there. 

1462
01:13:11,500 --> 01:13:13,500
Yeah. 
Come on, cool. 

1463
01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:16,300
Thanks so much Ethan and of 
course, will include links to 

1464
01:13:16,300 --> 01:13:19,600
all of those in the show notes 
and thanks so much for our 

1465
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,200
listener. 
For once again, tuning in, if 

1466
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,300
you want to support the show, 
make sure to leave us an iTunes 

1467
01:13:24,300 --> 01:13:26,400
review. 
Let us know what you think of 

1468
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,100
the episode and Twitter, share 
it with people. 

1469
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:30,800
You think would be fun and 
interesting? 

1470
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,000
And yeah we look forward to 
being back next week. 

1471
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,000
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1472
01:13:37,300 --> 01:13:39,000
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1473
01:13:39,500 --> 01:13:42,300
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1474
01:13:42,300 --> 01:13:45,400
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1475
01:13:45,700 --> 01:13:48,500
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1476
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:51,500
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast, go to 

1477
01:13:51,500 --> 01:13:54,600
epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for
a full list of places where you 

1478
01:13:54,608 --> 01:13:57,200
can watch and listen, while 
you're there, be sure to sign up

1479
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,000
for the newsletter so you get 
new episodes in your inbox as 

1480
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,100
they're released if you want to 
interact with us guests. 

1481
01:14:03,300 --> 01:14:06,300
Other podcast listeners you can 
follow us on Twitter and please 

1482
01:14:06,300 --> 01:14:09,000
leave us a review on iTunes it 
helps me behind the show and 

1483
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:12,300
we're always happy to read them 
but thanks so much and we look 

1484
01:14:12,300 --> 01:14:13,500
forward to being back next week.