This is epicenter, episode 457 if guest Ethan Frey.
Welcome to App Center to show which talks about two
technologies projects and people driving decentralization.
And the blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane.
And today, I'm speaking with Ethan Frey who is the
co-founder, who's the founder of cause and was am the founder of
confio. And, you know, we're going to
get a lot into what it is and kind of impact it has had before
we do that. It's just a brief word from our
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So with that, let's go to Ethan, it's great to have you on Yeah,
it's good to be here. Thank you for having me.
Yeah. Absolutely.
So Ethan, we have known each other for quite a while.
It's been I know five and a half years or something.
So we were both. We both joined the tenement team
around the same time at like very start of 2017.
I think we were something like there was maybe three or four
people before us and then it was basically two of us the same
time, we were both in Berlin and sort of this what as at the
Inception of the cosmos Network. So yeah, it's and of course,
Ethan has gone on to do lots of work, especially in the cosmos
ecosystem, that has, you know, gotten too much, much traction
in much impact as well. So I'm excited to, you know,
finally have him. You have your own but baby, you
can just hear a little bit like sort of About You background.
Like How did you end up getting involved in the crypto space and
in the cosmos ecosystem? More specifically Yeah cool.
Yeah. Thanks for that intro.
And it was actually really cool 2017, remembering those days and
then going out to some meet up back.
Gently 17 another first time I met or like second time at the
cafe before that, but with Gavin wood and J-Kwon talking about
multi chain, polkadot and Cosmos and Metallica's audience, and it
was like this early days of crypto and religion is pretty
cool. Cool times.
But yeah, I got into I don't know.
Cryptic kind of found me like you deny me alone and I Our
summers like pitching Bitcoin to be back in 2010, right?
And 2011, 2011, I guess as like the new money and yes, 2011.
And I just didn't, I don't know. Like I saw the think, oh, that's
kind of cool but like, I don't know, don't do anything
different than gold. So like that's not cool.
I don't know, like I was not looking for investor.
I'm like ever the worst invest in mind, do not accept any
investment advice, I give you of what value does valuable.
But like I look at the tech of it and I was kind of like look
at you know, No thinking about I should Community currencies and
like, you know, postmodern money.
And what the next generation information money is when
there's no scarcity and like Concepts like this before that
because it's kind of like a hobby.
I don't know side projects and because we like wow you can make
money on the internet. It's really stable and it's real
but I Goldman like well Gold's a bit like, you know, old and then
I heard rip off some time and they're like, oh, like 2013,
2014, 13, 13. I was actually some squat near
Barcelona. And this guy was tried turning
on to Ripple and and they're like, oh that's like you said
that decentralize. I ban you know, Swift Network
something like that. Goes really fast and like so you
can swap currencies. Like I don't do foreign exchange
trading. I'm a traitor.
Like what can I do with it? He's like, you can swap
currencies. I'm like, okay and actually
can't do that all and it was so Time around.
They keep coming back because unlike picture stuff to me,
right and believe like the technology but not like the I
didn't see it because I'm not Trader.
I didn't really get the get it from the money aspect and I want
something new. And so, like 2014 14, I was at a
workshop in Berlin on so chakra. See, which is interested.
And this guy came up to me, the only guy in a suit in the whole
place. I'm sure talking and he was
trying to invent, like a new Peugeot of money, and it's like,
you know, No on blockchain foreground money with the
wallets holding all the assets and like you could have
different community-based rules, the governance, creating a
stuff, right? This is that there's an
interest. Now, he's kind of this Visionary
and I got very, very intrigued what he's talking about because
he said, you know, you can have his new community govern rules
on the money, the money she has rules real money that idea 2014,
which is pretty new for me is like, oh that's cool.
He actually behave differently. That's interesting.
We convinced our own money so that kind of got me hooked an
idea of it. And so he Show me what etherium
was like, around Ico time, the world computer ideas and like
pointing to Aris Industries which was, you know, Billy
became an actress like this incubator of tenement somehow
and I don't really know how this everything together, but some
help with that like three errors, like that's cool.
Like you know, and they saw this ghost stuff, I'm like looking
this code and like try to make sense.
And then like started just like there's several like oh I can
put a block in tenement. I like to tell you my idea
that's really cool idea. So I I wouldn't let myself go
and catch up early and go and sometimes 2016 start trying to
do my own app and tournament. You know, this is and then
somebody else lakh, people watch other people trying to adapt and
tournament. And I was like, you know, I
still have this summer to GitHub.
It's like react signposts. I was like trying to make like a
basically a blog post. It would just be whatever your
blog and internet on the blockade.
Something with the react app and try to figure out do that and
said like yeah it should work on this as like the first step of
building program money on my own tenement chain back in 2016.
Because I thought that would be, you know, easy, right?
And and somehow I started going on there and filing with your
bugs and tenement and patching bugs and sentiment because
that's what I did. I was doing web dead for a while
and contribute heavily back to open source projects, like mongo
and postgres and stuff. So you know, you just patch bugs
and Upstream them. So I started doing that and and
somehow Buck, he's like, who are you?
What are you doing here? Who you working for?
Like, no one. I'm trying to build my own
money. This is cool stuff.
We got going on. He's like, work for us.
I'm like I'm My job right now and then, like two months later,
like I got anger, and boss. Will, who's making you work
weekend tonight? I said I go and do that.
So I said I'm quitting if you make you work nights and
weekends. So see ya then I said, hey guys,
I'm open and met them in met them in Zurich, November 2016
and they basically Redfield me read build me an IBC I intended
Min on POS on everything and yeah, I can't leave it since
then. Crow.
Amazing, I wasn't actually aware that.
You kind of, like, finally through errors Industries, which
is the company. I was also working for in 2015
and 16. So that's and maybe talk a
little bit about what did you work on in the time when you
were, you know, at tenement or like, at at the company back
then, Yes, the first thing I did was really what can I Beltre and
try to speed it up. So I did some benchmarking early
benchmarks and tests on it and then try to speed it up, which
was like, then things are too premature really speed up
anymore. So I guess it's true at the time
early 2017, but like now's these bottlenecks and then moved on to
try to be the like apps. So, I actually basically took
what was based? Coin was just a little app that
had demo app and try to make a real app.
Clean it up. I show, I turned into, I started
doing the first. Of IBC based on the very vague
spec. That white paper, I then made
said, hey this lapse a limited, let's do something real.
So I built the the first was the cosmos SDK is zero six or seven
or eight, especially me building it out, over the summer, with
the help from rigel a bit. I built that out heavily.
I came up with a whole idea. The rest client LCD was like,
we're trying to sign. It was working with Matt and
Judd from nomic. Now they're working there and
they're trying to get front and apps and they couldn't actually
sign and, you know transaction. So I'm like, okay, let's make
this like little small little rest over app that like helps
you to the cryptography. Beyond the site server side
until we have a proper JSM in a library in six months from now.
So yeah, I did this stuff so I'm sorry sometimes because I've got
Legacy code, but whatever it was invented, the time to allow the
LLC. Dear Esther idea built SDK out
there and then that was kind of Frozen for a lot of internal
discussions SDK was put on basically hold to be considered
and reconsidered and the meanwhile basically wrote
obviously white paper, so if you say anything you're obviously in
2017, that was like I wrote All Speck out of your It, which is
now I just went he's obviously got bigger and bigger but the
concept got bigger. The them new job time is
basically talking transfer service expect out token
transfer with the idea of acknowledgements and timeouts
cleanups stuff like that rather than just having these fine
forget messages. So a bunch of stuff Merkel
proofs Isis 23. I wrote the like client proofs
and stuff like that was really, really nice BC and some of the
code still around and moved up four times out that like plant
food stuff moved out. Or times of repose.
And I think it's in 10 different now.
But yeah, if you look away, way, way, way, way back, once I was
the author that Cool, very cool. And then what, how do you end up
working on Cosimo's? Mmm.
Yeah. So I basically first I a little
frustrated at the pace in aib because there's a lot of
decisions to be made and they're all pretty much made in
California time at which is like you know my evening and if you
know by 11:00 a.m. their time when they're waking up I was
pretty much talk about work. Usually with 9 p8 8 p.m. in
Berlin so I was not really involved in decision making and
in fact no one in Berlin was really and it Felt like this
injury made somehow. And anyway, the SDK was
basically, put on hold indefinitely and nothing really
to work on and a few other things, you have blocked and
working on. So I said, this is kinda boring,
want to build something. So I said, I'm going to build my
thing. So I found another company.
Those often hire me, is it cool? I want to build another CK.
So I basically took the idea to the first SDK built something
called we've. I OV and it basically had, you
know, certain early, 2018, I'd protobuf going on there, I had
JavaScript And those talking directly to it.
So, you had basically cause MGS talking with no light client
directly, part of signing messages and calling them.
We had multi cigs in there. Yeah, in 2018 have built out the
basic stuff, some basic groups, government's modules, and stuff
like that. We're in there as well.
And a lot of the and some basic swap talking stuff in there.
That was I did a 2018 and then towards the end of that year, I
realized that like there was not really a business going around
with this stuff is cool. Head and his team were building
is If up, we had a business case, wasn't really maturing and
there's a little yeah, internal issues of say and so I got a
little, I don't know, I watched SDK go at own pace and go to and
peace and then like, you know, get more and more and more and
F's. And then I showed up at
interchain, that's a really fucking awesome.
Sorry, bleep that out, but awesome conference there, 2019
and pressures are too. Of course, one was A jar has.
Yeah the anything conversations in Berlin.
Those really awesome really awesome.
Like everyone in the class was came.
The causal have been launched like three months earlier and
like, I don't know. Everyone shut their like is
everyone, right? And like, no one even had their
own block chains and it's kind of like all these people had a
little project small projects, right?
It's amazing group. People show up their three-day
most have conversations and discussion and then a hackathon,
the end of it and in that I met a lot of cool people and we kind
of come together. It's like, let's build something
and I realized it like No, yeah, No One's Gonna Take.
We've and I'll drop it and they'll look use SDK again but
I'm not really want to hack this Decay so much but let's do
something. And then I'm sitting around this
table and we kind of got a bunch of people there floating around
anyway, it was like me, Aaron regen yahaan who's now an
informal formal Taya Shane who's now at stargaze and then somehow
Pedro from All Connect should up there and we ended up like so
let's make a team. Let's build walls, mm, contracts
and let's build Cosmos Market or was mm, smart contracts in SDK
and like, sure why not? It's two days.
And, and there's basically three of us were kind of like, they
also built the group's module, kind of, in the way multistage
stuff. The same time, Shannon Aaron.
And then, basically, it was like, yeah.
Let me building that and and PV connect on the front end, so
it's knocked it out on the weekend.
I didn't sleep. It kind of close my eyes for an
hour. And yeah, I learned a lot of
Stand your house doing amazing stuff there too.
With in Rust and we knocked it out those awesome.
We got contractor working those crazy, be uploading contracts
and running them. So it's like, you know, don't
push it falls over but like if you do it right?
Iran says, pretty amazing for us actually, and I get super
excited for that. Is it like?
Yeah, this is awesome. It's the most awesome project
I've worked on in years and like this green field of like
building something new and it's compatible.
Everything else people using already.
So that was really learned is like you know, don't want to
forecast to can go off, man. Make your own version and
compete like a really like everyone wants uses tooling.
Let's build the tooling, add power if everyone can use it and
be compiled everyone. So, that was really cool.
And I said, I got a grant from that one of the prizes, got a
relatively small Grant to follow up on it.
And said, let's all build it, guys.
I know, we always do a few hours a week and and every else is too
busy. They're all ctOS.
Is like a team ctls. And I was only when they said,
okay, I quit my job and start doing this.
So yeah I did and three years later it's into it is Cool.
Awesome. Well maybe we can take a zoom
out a little bit because so webassembly right I think a lot
of people have heard of webassembly, right?
Webassembly is often being kind of touted as.
Oh, it's like you know powerful platform etherium.
I think at one point was like, thinking of adopting
webassembly, you know, there was some other projects that were
like very heavily emphasizing webassembly.
I think especially, I might be definitive is always like,
Assembly webassembly. Can you can you tell us like
what is webassembly in? Like, what's interesting about
webassembly? Webassembly.
It's a funny history is really trying to work faster because
webassembly but nothing really did the web anymore except that
it can often run the web. There's a project called a SMGs
that from a sealer that was trying to like an optimized
JavaScript so you could pick up a legit or a state faster.
Anyway, then they basically think of webassembly which is a
VM and I think your theory done two or three layers late usually
it would have used it. It's a very, very simple virtual
machine. It's a 32-bit processor with
some stat calls. It has like 150 operations.
It's a pretty simple. Relatively simple architecture.
It involves no runtime, no system. there is I think a way
of allocating memory, And like no garbage collector, just like
allocate blocks of memory. Like, expand the memory space.
I want to have access to see how much memory should have access
to and expand it. Literally right.
Like, that's all it has and everything else is added as an
optional import or export. If you want to expose something,
you make an export and if you want to call into external
system in part and you have to assume you have this this
Dynamic that like this is a did not have access to files.
No access to network nothing. And I think if you The jvm which
is the first real popular VM there java virtual machine that
came out there. And that was basically like an
a-hole runtime, you have like, the virtual machine, which has a
32-bit architecture with the stack and pushing stuff on it
and how it worked. But also the system library of
how to interact with the system and how to interact with files
and how to interact with its whole pose.
It can fly in system. Depending operating system,
basically not just a virtual machine, and this, it finds a
processor to find a processor and nothing else in anyone can
plug any system, they want to like there's a product called Z
webassembly system, interface which is kind of a posix like
interface, which is, as if we expose exports into it, they can
use it. And then you can say, okay, we
only give you access to these files and that's all you see,
the whole world and you can control the controller somehow.
If you compare it with, you know, like it BM that people are
kind of like humiliating the in the boxing context.
It's you know, the theory of virtual machine.
So what are the advantages or maybe?
Entities that this virtual machine has versus T, if your
inversion machine. So the first thing is it's
general purpose, which is a good and bad thing, right?
The evm is built for ethereum blockchain or a blockchain and
it comes all its pre compiles for computes and it comes the
whole lot of understanding of like where things are called and
interactions of calling other functions.
It's very and these call methods, which require blocking
is like the virtue of the language of VM is tied to
blockchain. You've called functions create
functions, like, with bytecode, like is tied to itself is Is
this concept of evm? It's not separated from the
runtime. It's like the evm is not just a
machine, it's the runtime, which means it's like, very like the
jvm is, for one use case, right? And it's it has use case and
it's very tailored which could be very good because it's
tailored towards it. The bad thing is you have no
tooling around it and you know opposition around it and I think
we see as being slow, we see has issues.
And I think what happened with webassembly is it's a very
generic one. Very general purpose, one and so
suddenly, a lot of different languages.
Start targeting it. They said, oh, we can write C
and compile that 12 assembly, right?
We compile C++ when you pile of rust, we can probably
webassembly. There's a project called tiny
goat called go to webassembly. There's a bunch of other
projects they're like in progress for lots of other
languages and I mean works. Best for static type languages,
low-level languages right now but a lot of different languages
being compiled like Haskell there, some Haskell the web
simulator She can take others you language, compile it to as a
back-end and they can just run out like they run on a Intel
machine architecture. The run on a Mac and one arm
architecture, right? They run on some older embedded
CPUs, they can run on awasum webassembly VM.
So I think that fact, first allows us whole tooling of lots
of different front-end coding ever, build your own language
and your own self. You can use existing code.
And the second thing you do is because of that interface.
What else? Tries to build other people?
Try to build the VMS and so people just interpreters for it
faster and faster, right? So there's like an interpreter
built in your browser. There's probably two or three of
them out there, right? One from Google one, from
Mozilla, I think one from Safari, there is y, z, which is
a polkadot which interpreter, which doesn't, is not a jit.
A lot of them will take that y z code and compile it into
optimized, local code run it. Their sandbox local codes to
make it much faster. It's like an opposition called
just-in-time compilation there. Wah smooch we use.
And while some time with your, to time competing things, which
also do either pre compiling or just-in-time compiling of the
code to native code and run it to get really fast compilation.
There's some other ones out there too.
So there's a bunch of smart people doing it and you're not
tied to one project interpreting it, you're not tied to one
project building, tooling around it, you'll leveraging 56,
different language, ecosystems entirely tooling of Rusty, can
use just out of the box with webassembly and then you have
like five or six different back ends you can choose from and
who's Gonna write you the VM who implements a VM that runs
swasey. So it's a standard basically,
it's a standard middleware, and it's not really tied to a
blockchain or anything else. People running redis in
webassembly system interface, right?
So you can do anything in it and then allows you to Leverage is
huge of Toulon and people are working on optimizing it as fast
as I can. So Russ is really heavily
optimized, amazing, a pile engineers and it wasn't time.
The compiling was them to like the most efficient bike or they
can. And they gained some really,
really impressive stuff. They've really Of compiler low
level designers work in this full time that we're not paying
for that. Like, multiple people are paying
for, and like, top-of-the-line stuff that you're not trying to
recruit them as your own blockchain project, just like
Leverage them. So, I think it's because it's a
whole ecosystem and it's so compatible.
Generic it allows us huge ecosystem of many companies to
build two Optical lab rate, which is too powerful at the
time. The evm was launched, it was not
around, it was not available, it was kind of in some weight idea
stage. Age.
It was I understand when they built the TV and they had to
that was the best the time they could have done.
But like now I see that came out later and say hey this is a
whole ecosystem, we can use it and then we just customize a few
things on it. Like the entry points, we expose
the contracts and we can run it. So polkadot is running out
quickly webassembly as well. Thanks, that's very helpful when
you win now. Now, let's talk about cars and
walls. Mmm, I guess, one thing that
probably a lot of people are not aware of, and maybe you can talk
a little bit about it, right? But he's starting in cause in
the cosmos SDK, right? You have this concept that
there's like different plugins, right?
So you have these different modules and then they will be
like it, you know, module that's like it's taking module or more,
the IBC module and and These different modules.
And then, you know, the different SDK blockchains can
say, oh, we use some of them, we develop some of our own and
then, you know, cause some wasn't right, basically means
like, okay, you taking this webassembly and you putting it
as a module. Inside, the cosmos SDK.
Is that is that correct? And like what, what are some of
the? What are some of the, you know,
the consequences of like putting the webassembly inside?
This Cosmos SDK framework. Work.
Yeah, it's a kind of funny question.
I should so like you're right. There are these modules into the
SDK is pretty amazing, plug-in set so you can add different
modules and easy to kind of like import code from here and your
own code and extend. It is meant to extensible.
It is it's very sensible. What?
It does require though is a hard for that every time you want to
change it. So if you write like you deploy
a new amm module, right? And you want to add it, then you
have to basically get that murder.
Has into the main code base the code and then get the entire
Block Chain to stop switch out the binaries out there.
Run some script now it's a little more optimized I've paid
for that was like a whole dump. Dump State restart like three
our issues now. It's down to like five ten
minutes but still did. According to our block is
stopped or just restart and come with a new code to add the new
module, remove module update it, right?
And that is a lot better than working on like Bitcoin.
We try to change it, right. The core logic bitcoiners e-cash
but still not The smart contract of element speed, so it makes
sense for core functionality like governance and staking.
But we said, hey if you're smart contracts, a lot of things just
like Adam on top, they don't really matter.
You want to play them quickly. So what we did is we don't store
the walls of inside of your, the bottom VM.
So we wrote this entire like we took the webassembly virtual
machine from Hua summer. We wrapped it with some standard
callbacks. So it basically explain its
place in the world. How can talk to blockchain, so,
a program can also say, hey query, this other part of the
Block Chain or send tokens over here or call this other
contract. Right?
We exposed some functionality to it in a certain frame, certain
functions to it. It's okay.
These are extra special functions for cause of awesome
contract on top of normal Watson contract.
And so we built the virtual machine and is the rust into a
busy of Library which we embedded in a module.
So it's a bit crazy. We built basically a rust model
library and a dll. And then embedded that into a go
binary, just writing here. And the walls and code, is never
actually not binary, the wadham college upload in a transaction
just like in kind of ethereal you upload code.
So the actual the virtual machine and the runtime is in
this module, which then actually calls in every other module the
system. But the actual that was imposed
to upload a transaction stores in state-of-the-state other
thing, and it just loads at code when needed Yeah, that's an
important thing, right? Because the and the cosmos 60k
Paradigm, right? Like somebody wants to modify
some plugins and module and then that requires changing this
code, new binary, you know, like all the validators have to
change its a lot of friction and here the thing is, I can write a
bunch of code. I put it into a transaction, the
transaction gets sent and then this was VM kind of like, Rap
stat. And then it has that code,
right? And so nothing has nothing
outside has to change but now all of a sudden you have like
that code in there and I guess that's particularly attractive
if in and I guess that's also where calls them was in.
The has been has found a lot of usage in the cosmos.
Ecosystem is like oh I want to create a general smart contract
chain, right? Where everyone can sort of, put
your own contracts on that because that's something that
calls. Mrs. D k with Without something,
a cousin wasn't doesn't really support.
Well, Yeah, and a lot of things in the move faster and they
don't want the whole chain, like, a purpose change of your
decks. I think they've got really good
decks on as Moses. They based on balance our ideas
and some reason curve and they basically, I think you saw it so
well, understood question, right?
But now we try to build stuff on top of it.
Like, okay, lending protocol and you want to do some leverage
option stuff on it. They're like, okay, we actually
want the faster cause I'm Awesome on it.
And if T is moving too fast, like feel trying to coach him go
and have tea thing, but it's like it's months behind the
space. So like, I think, Think things
that Mutiny move faster, it's essential and so contracts, only
the privilege of a user account external account.
They have more privileges than another account than you do.
And I do this on a coat, this have their own, the Logics, on
the blockchain. But if no more privileges, they
can hold token to move tokens of different rules.
So it's great for things like that, which are simple app logic
that you want to add and I think the SDK is amazing.
Things like, oh, we don't change our fees are handled won't
change our consensus works and govern votes work.
We need to change our like you know, a spam middleware.
And we need to import IBC as native control, which is totally
trusted 100, trusted verified code on here, which is stable
and not changing the foundation for the things.
So, sdks great way of composing, lots of different projects
together to build foundational levels right?
Where's cause I'm awesome, said, okay, if you want to do just
like business logic a pelagic, not foundational blockchain
stuff. Let's do it there and I think
it's a great combination so that you have five, six different
teams, composing stuff, and adding things in there as
modules. So, you can build this SDK base
layer, and cause I'm awesome. Okay.
Now all those hundreds of deaths that want to run on top of a
chain or thousands of deaths. Now that want to run on top of a
chain, you can just do it right. You don't worry about that
platform. You don't worry about who's
paying what content to say what the gasp fairies are.
You just worried about, like running your logic.
So I think it allows these two things up side-by-side very
well. Yeah, but then like you
mentioned this Moses like, osmosis right?
Doesn't have generalized, more contracts is not like anybody
can just go and like, put some stuff on on a smooth surface,
but they also, I think leveraging calls them awesome in
some ways. Can you talk a little bit about
Ike? Because on the example, of like,
generalized, smart contract chain, right?
Like Juno is one example, probably the best-known example
in the cosmos. Right where you have, this
costume wasn't chained and like, you know, lots of different
people building like lots of different stuff on that.
But can you talk about the other example, right, where you using
causing walsman in a more controlled way you and more
permission way? So a number of chains of
actually adopted a little more conservatively than Gino has.
So there's no early adopters of Gino and both from cyber
Congress. Some early, I mean, before that
without you Terror and secret, the first ones as permission
less, but the first one, modern obviously, one of those, you
know, I guess what it does. Most of the same thing I'm
stargaze, which is basically permission to contract.
It doesn't mean that allows you to add a block code requires
government vote to allow you to use your code, right?
So they basically want to vet all the code on their thing.
It's a way of saying, hey start this almost activities on there
and stuff. So if you want to upload a
project, an FTE basically. Hey I'm Billy project that ft.
I want to launch a new chain, okay?
Yes. Okay and they say, hey now this
is some like D5 product. You'll want to chain, don't come
to a chain. So, they control that first step
of being able to upload that contract instantiate it.
Once it connects on the chain is permissionless, right?
Like you do anything you want with it.
Once on the Chain, you basically just have to ask to go in the
front. Our.
And after that runs, just like any other contract, any other
chain has, most of the same thing, they kind of wanted to
have a like whatever you can experiment and you know and do
stuff and you know and you're going to in the end, you know,
they wanted more like a App Store feel Force, Moses they
wanted to have like you know five protocols may be on there
the building on there they can integrate into the ecosystem.
There slowly allow them in there which allows them to scale out.
Not like your general purpose but it's okay.
We can find him Dev teams building from projects and they
don't have to get the Core code base.
They can't break a code, they can't break, there's the chain,
then we can build our own little project.
So, actually, we, they basically just make agreements with
projects beforehand. Like if you want to run as Moses
talk to them and if they like it project to say cool, when you
finish it will let you go on there more or less, right?
It's like you basically get permission first.
And once you do that, you just write your code like you're
doing, you know, you go through a process to get approved to go
on the chain and watched on the Chain, then it runs like
anywhere else. So let's Except you've acted
acts on chain, which actually pretty cool.
So, some people leveraging it for letting protocols etc.
Etc. I think it's I think that's an
option. We came early on and we put that
early on, as an option and it's really being used as year.
So, people being like, I want to have cause I'm Awesome by wanna
control of a nap chain and cause I'm awesome Cheney one.
Actually had them both Best of Both Worlds.
Like yeah, an evacuated set of applications on my chain but
allow third-party devs, easily accident.
And yeah, I guess you you. She tear our right is actually
important because probably a lot of people are not aware that you
know, Taro is also using calls and awesome and you know, all
these things that were being built on Tara.
I mean I guess again, with the exception of a bunch of
foundational stuff that was like, part of the chain logic.
But you know, that the applications people were
building on terror were built in in calls.
Mausam, they were the first doctor doesn't want them.
I want to say the only stable thing UST was not, cause I'm
awesome. UST was not going to cause some
awesome. That predate casu.
Marzu net change. Had it changed UST.
DST lunar whole thing treasury, I understand it, but that was
existing before hand, but all the other protocols, so Terror,
Swap, and even anchor and mere protocol, be Luna.
And then the whole series of levana and Marsh and all these
other protocols pumping out there, all got some awesome they
would older version upgrade actually two recent version Um,
but yeah, it was its own cosmology because some children
have IBC support. That kind of actually ties into
my follow-up question here. So call some awesome you have
this. Basically kind of you know,
separate container, right? We're like code lives and you
can kind of like things happening there and then you
have like, you know, other Cosmos modules.
Like, you know, for instance, there's an IBC module, right?
Which is like sending transaction to other chains, so
I guess, you know, the cause of autism contracts have to somehow
talk with these other modules or So how does that interface work?
And are they like some limitations around this?
Yeah. So we basically expose some
modules, what does should Json and past Jason basically because
we chose easy debugging us you know if you can play on Jason
being they're not part of of talk to ya hon Vincent, Chase on
the best way to see easily debug it and kept rolling.
But basically passed between that it calls a system.
With the Json blob says, hey talk to bank on it, and we
Define an interface for the contract, they can call the bank
module, 2 Min Berto, contain call into the sticky mud.
We'll just take tokens and delegate and claim the rewards.
They can call into the governance.
Want to vote. For example, they call the IBC
module. 10 tokens also allow custom IVC call back.
So you can actually have an IVC protocol built as a contract.
I want to get that later and we allowed to have custom callbacks
right the thing called a custom. So basically you say gate, we
give you a standard set of things, but change will all want
to tie their own ones in there. So we have an extension point
that you don't have to Fork. Cause I'm awesome.
You don't have four car VM. Your own Fork wasn't the
anything he's a whole Teamwork. And this is an early thing.
We did to early on to make sure if you're not forfeit, and say,
if you want to expose adex osmosis you can add a special
call back to take a. These we have a new structure
here, which can add embed into other message, called custom.
And our custom type is, as most of message, and it runs here and
allows you talk to decks. So it basically defined format
Json format that you can use for, for the finding call, back
your native module, and then on your on your Block Chain.
You basically interpret that to do those things, Video message
Api between the contract and your native blockchain and a
number of people use that quite a few have used that as
extension point and I want to actually mention this about
Justin cause I'm awesome. Awesome, awesome is not just in
Cosmos anymore, this running on a substrate chain which I think
is a pretty impressive, engineering feat, so composed of
Finance has launched a poker, a chain.
And they have Cosmos and running in substrate and it's integrated
with the bank module it's not I think tied this Sticky module
IBC That vaccine yet but they just run it on.
You can run contracts like a Stevie 20 contract and you can't
have tea on it. Can you same contracts?
They're different Jazz front end but like the back and run the
same, they uploaded actually unmodified contracts onto it and
running and substrate chain, which is pretty cool.
And what's the, what's the benefit of that?
If, you know, as you said that, polkadot already uses
webassembly. So, why Port cousin was a mantra
polkadot Yeah, I don't know why I put that.
You see what we simply? Honestly, they use webassembly
as a base layer, the whole strange writings webassembly,
but like the same way everything's written in go.
It rustic possibly, so, but you have upgraded your hard work,
the chain, and I guess, in theory, can hard for the chain
without a restart or like automatically, we started
getting upload it, but all permissioned.
It's a very complicated thing. If a recompile, the whole thing,
and then you upload these pieces and I still have yet to see it
be done flawlessly. But They're the ideas basically
allow easier upgrades, but still don't rush it and basically you
have one new web assembly binary, you're stretching out
to, right? Like it is a giant web sembly
project. Not smart contract, they have,
but just allow third parties, just to change developers.
Same with SDK, does it is used as a Target.
They also have something called ink, which is smart contract
language, which compiles webassembly, and they upload
that, and run that as user controlled things, but it's not
really caught on It was actually existing before casu.
Marzu must have dreamed of, right?
Like, I saw demos of it. Like, when I wrote, cause I'm
awesome and they looked over. I saw that they had done
something similar, but never took off, I'm I think overly
complicated and but I don't know, I don't really know why.
The truth is ink is never taken off over three years of the
funny about three and there's a project composable, it's really
tied into the Poke that you can system that had tried ink and
refresh rate with it. So frustrated, sigh to Port,
cause a malls in into a substrate, create Each pallet
they're called, I think like a modules, the VM and talk to us
to figure out and then, you know, make it compatible because
they thought cause I'm also such a nice to Target and writing
contracts. So I don't know, I don't know
why, I don't know if that's good business choice, but they did it
and they're happy with it and they're running their stuff on
it when they're trying to work at BC as well.
So that's cool. But I think the point was it was
designed actually same way that the webassembly virtual machine
is not tie, just a block, change, or Theory, blockchain
the cause of War. Virtual machine system.
We have runs great. We have a binding in the cosmos.
We've love to bed in the cosmos but like, they have met
somewhere else and it can be embedded other places.
Well, so is actually relatively relatively Universal Target,
which I think might, hopefully. In the next few years extends,
I'd love to see it like an avalanche or near some like that
also running. Awesome.
Yeah, maybe that ties into the
question of kind of weird, you see.
Cousin wasn't going, is there a lot of what does the development
roadmap look like Yeah. So our original goal released 10
back last fall and fall 2021. And I think our goal is and to
get changed using it, right? All upgrading to use it is an
IBC enabled version of it using Stargate, IVC, all that stuff
that took some months. And this this bring time I was
amazed went from like, you know, 45 teens using it to like, you
know, 13 now it's over 20 change using it, right?
So we first was like, exhales deeply.
Using it. And the second thing I'm working
on is getting more devs on and Tara did a great job getting
dibs on it. Do you know as Moses they're
getting a lot more devs on this stuff.
And we're working thing called Academy Academy, that cause
amazon.com and we are trained up depth.
So right now we're doing is basically trying to build the
ecosystem. So we got the change running it,
you have 20 chains plus running it.
Now we're giving free classes, free tutorials, free tooling for
devs alert, it to really build the deck.
You system from several hundred to a thousand deaths in Are many
more like a theory of its huge number one and fill this out.
And what I really see is differentiator and where I want
to work on and what I am working on besides like, helping people
building tools and tutorials for people is IVC.
So inner chain contracts. It's like I did this thing say
oh and a hack at them a demo day at the pool act on it and like
Jake did some and some guy from Tai Chi from Japan.
And another one it's pretty awesome that you can basically
deploy a contract and two different chains, they talked
Each other with like no trusted Bridges.
No multi sakes. Nothing could be hacked in the
middle them just like pure guaranteed message passing with
complete Security by b.c. and the contractor told the app
logic. Like if you if you send a
message says meant token or mints token or not, I don't
know. Over make a governance about or
control this dowel or or change the threshold of my LP pool
thing or whatever you want to do.
It's kind of entertaining accounts but like so much more
powerful because you can actually write contracts both
sides and that was not possible until you actually You had
multiple important chains, running Cosimo's 10 and we
waiting for like three, four months ago is like actually
okay, great like Juno secret Juno's Moses or not 10 and
secrets appearing very shortly. I think those are three of the
top change behind the Hub on the ecosystem and terms of market
cap, at least and there are running.
Injective also another big change are also running it so
like a lot of people writing it now.
So most of the changes that the Hub are running cause I'm
awesome which means you can actually build protocol expands
45 change using IBC messages and write an entire not just your
app logic, but actually the protocol communication there,
that's like, writing your own API servers and talking blotches
of blockchain, no Bridge facts involved.
And that's really wise the future.
And that's really what I'm going to be a lot of work into not
just not just building it. Also documenting try to explain
it but also trying to build these things out there because
hey I'm trying to build something doesn't exist yet.
Just hard to teach people tutorials from the doesn't
exist. So I going to build a stuff
first and then show you how to build But I just bought some
prototypes out there and it's amazingly fast.
So, I think one thing we did talk about before on this
podcast, we maybe some people have heard of are aware of is in
Cosmos this concept of entertaining counts, which
basically you have like an accountant one chain and then
you can control it from another chain.
So let's say, for example, there's a project Quicksilver,
right? And they doing liquid staking
with that. So that this quick silver chain
control and account on Cosmos, it can cause my top, it can you
stake Adam's booking governance, you know, claim rewards you Do
all those things and able is controlled by another Block
Chain that you know then issue like a liquid second token.
So that's like an example of interesting accounts are
obviously many examples now. What you're describing right?
It's basically goes even a step further, right?
Because you basically have like contract code on both sides
realize here, it's kind of like letting the quicksave example,
it's kind of like contract code on the one side, right?
And then the other hand is just like a normal account, can you?
I talked a little bit about use cases.
Like, what are some of the things that, you know, you could
like you'd be interested in building or you can imagine
people building, you know, these cross chain causing walls and
maps. Yeah, I will, I will.
So I think in some theoretical way with token transfer and your
hand accounts may be able to build anything may be able to
and using queries, we add that like those might be funneled,
principal say these are holy principles, we can build
anything with them but they're inefficient develop things.
So I think for first taking is fine, because you'll have to
take that often, right? Like you can just every 12 hours
now. You put your money in res, take
it, right? So I have to go so much but
let's say I have a lending protocol.
Does liquid and decks another chain, right?
The current way of, let's just say, that's just right.
Now, the producing protocol assuming is all exist,
entertaining account, inquiries and token transfers.
If I have a protocol here, the ones that liquidated X over
here, right? First, I move one message, move,
my tokens over here, awaiting a response right now, as you know,
get call back in the response, you need a dowel to control it.
And we're working with IG team to like, you actually triggered
a call back when it finishes, then you say, okay, now, make a
swap With this initial accounts to make a swap of that money is
sent over here for other token, right?
It may have succeeded or failed, if it succeeds.
Then I query to see actually, how much they get, right?
The full amount I got. Okay, then call overheating can
count you transfer tokens back to get their taxes back, right?
And that's a lot of here, make a request getresponse, make a
request getresponse. He's also requests right in here
has orders the whole thing. Now let's say hey this is
actually a common use case. This is not something you do
once. There's something eating all the
time, it's York, uh, business case.
I want to employ the off my set. I'm gonna deploy a contract here
and the contract here. Then what they do say is they've
done protocol which is move tokens, swap them at this price,
and send me all the results back.
If the price, if you don't make that price, if the money is too
low, right? The price is, if the market
won't trade this price, they return my original funds back,
right? That's a really simple logic,
and not the only one that so, but we're Not going to wait for
like a go code. Six, eight months, 12 months to
build some new go logic with this very specific use case,
integrating some debt on this one change.
They know we want to watch it now so we could do.
Now I wrote a query right now we could do this very quickly and
basically say this now we write these two contracts here.
They do that if you trust it so well I can say, okay here
liquidate at this price it was in one message back and then you
a call back, you know, whatever one obviously message, it will
do this logic and then your callback saying, okay I liquid
at this. Great stuff or I fail to
liquidate and your money back, right?
Like, you get it right away that I think will allow people to do
Integrations. They couldn't even conceive of.
That's like that's faster, right?
This is faster, but it actually can only conceive.
I've only got one more. So I'm working something called
wind, Dow w, y and d dou. And we, I think, the second
stuff might be like that first would authors, demo authors a
prototype and give it to y'all. It's free stuff, right?
We doing this. For you everyone.
I have a query like users privacy price Oracle as most
issues like imported and waiting 40.
Walk out there we finalized. But the next one is this.
I think the next level a really deep integration.
So imagine you have a decks on one chain and you want to make
another decks, another chain that decks wants to launch a
subduction of the chain, right? The subjects is own separate
liquidity. Right?
So it's gonna have to own issue of liquidity and is very small,
is not really that popular, but actually have all the credit
other chain, but maybe I could actually not make it generic
protocol that works for anyone. But I will make a special
contract between my sub parent deck to my child actors, like a
permission IBC content. Like a like an encrypted or
authenticated IBC connection. That just runs from my parent
decks to my child X, right? And I will move 1% my liquidity
over here but I like it. Have price information of all
the rest, liquidity over here. So here's actually reference
price. The reference price is here,
right? And you actually had the full
reference price here and that's actually what you use over here.
You will assume they have that value and you can trade a little
bit liquidy very quickly just like ATM or branch bank and so
maybe it's a minute out of date of the actual price over here,
right? And you have a little slippage
here. You can maybe, but you only can
move a 1% liquidity, only can pull a little bit windy out
here. You can't put too much out
anyway, right? Like you can't put too much over
here, so if you run it you run in it and they get a new price
update. But the meantime or things are
not moving too heavily, you basically get immediately
access, you have to call IBC swaps.
You get immediate access like a local decks like immediate swap
response right away. Immediate responses from a decks
locally with the same liquidity effectively as the parent decks.
So they basically shifted this as a branch Bank.
This able to provide a virtual liquidity and much higher
amounts and still Guard against Bank runs, which I think is
pretty amazing. And like this idea of like
Protocols are not just like copying themself over change, or
you're just like, okay, we're like kind of like something like
that. Like, we've moved collateral
over change, but actually integrating operations over
multiple chains, is I think a revolutionary concept that no
one is really grasped or even build out yet.
So I think one project I'll be doing besides knocking stuff out
like, you know, here's how you swap on a Juno's.
Moses, you know, swap on as most as dead from Juneau with IBC
message and you know, this has been a discussion for a while
now since Lisbon and besides that kind of stuff I want to
work on basically building up next.
Integrations of multi, chain applications are truly multi
chain deliver multiple change and like balance maturity model
change. Thanks so much for the
explanation. That is very cool.
And like, yeah, it's just amazingly powerful, right?
Like, that's where you really see the kind of like multi
chain. I mean already, the cosmos
ecosystem is like had such an explosion of activity and, you
know, we've seen IBC be so powerful just for talking
transfer and I was always the thing that shocked me the most
with IBC, you're surprised me the most was just like, how
actually good to user experience was, you know, I think, what's
most Like really great job at that and not just as Moses like
others. But in now I think having all of
these more advanced things, right with with, you know, more
powerful, IVC stuff with cousin was mm.
It's going to be really like weird and mind-bending.
I think when those come come out.
You were going bought a chain wallet involved have to suggest.
I think there's an amazing job they did as Moses.
I agree. It was amazing job at it.
For ux like, when it came out, they basically listed all of
your accounts on 10 different, chains or 20 different chains,
right? Like I'm one little board.
You hit the pause withdraw. Like, you have to go some other
account and do something and then like, sign into other other
blockchain app. Over there.
Go to a bridge, weight, whatever.
Know he's like, honest Moses app.
It shows you when you click the button deposit like it actually
under the hood call. Another chain to tell him to
transfer it signs a transfer, my situation related to move over
there and 10 seconds. 20 seconds later in your account like with
an almost no fees like that's super fast and super cheap and
you only have to worry about it. All you remember is like, oh my
ledge. I see different chain ID on this
thing. I'm signing it.
But like it's really like so transparent and that was amazing
to really make that whole like you can Bridge liquidity, it
transparent. So, I think, once you build
these things I'm talking about behind the scenes and the back
end like this, what a friends. They're so transparent, right?
Like they just are smooth and think they did a killer job and
ux and love to see what the you know.
Have those people also involved in these next level discussions
and see what kind of ux they can design for these multi chain
world. One question I have here is, you
know, one of the big arguments that the theorem is always made
and that's some other chains like Salon I for example was
also emphasizing a lot of. Is this idea of like you know,
composer Ability and it's such an advantage to have, you know,
contracts that are in the same VM, you know, where you can, you
can like make like Atomic transactions, right?
Like make one transaction that affects like, you know,
different contracts in the same transaction and, you know, it
all executes at the same time or it fails.
How, how do you see that? Because that's that was often.
Also, one of the criticisms right of the kind of Cosmos.
IBC concept is because, you know, you have like a
transaction happening on chain a and then it triggers something
on chain be. But do you know, you can sort of
make the transaction to, like, trigger something on chain a and
chain be like simultaneously that talk a little bit about
like how do you see these this issue and how do you think that
what Impact of that going to be when you actually have into
chain applications, the way you described.
I think it's a good point and I think this message is harder
it's not were so it's easier to called locally and I think the
idea, the app chain where every app had one little use case,
right? Like one is just add x. + 1 is
just tokens and one is in the fifties and one is a landing
protocol. And one is like this other
little piece and actually need five change.
We're going to useful device, ecosystem is kind of limited,
right? So I think the extension
adapting if you're going like actually maximalist everyone
like a little looking to hit the limits.
However A lot of the new architectures are going for this
thing. Like near sharding, already is
like a sickness caused any way between event and they realize
that they can't scale up and like a theorem hit the limit and
ever roll ups and so effectively like yeah.
Okay, you can pose a theory on but like every girl's a polygon
or arbitrary more something that optimism and like Phantom and
they're like just throwing somewhere else because they
can't now there's like crappy Bridges between them.
They are like hacks all the time because actually like composable
hits limit. Then in slums like we're
Portuguese scale. But like we're centralized VC
chain that like V every, you know, every two weeks.
So like they have limits here, right?
Answer clearly like having not just vertical but horizontal
scalability gives you so much more resilience, right?
The problem is how do you do it? So thank you.
Want to have like a useful model commit for Taps, always work
together all the time. They should be the same chain,
they should be composed, really nicely, they're really tightly
integrated. They should integrate one chain
but their, their apps that we don't interfere with all the
time. We negate them, you know,
occasionally, right? Or every few hours or like we
don't call like, in all the time, So like, in Quicksilver
quicksilver's on one chain and Stakes on the Hub, and it
doesn't need to be there like every single transaction.
It just needs to know how to like a deposit or withdrawal
handle some stuff. It does its own things, but
they'll have to be like this, they just have to be able to
securely be able to actually operations.
So I think it's a whole class of things that don't need this
immediately. See that possibility and then
just come to the point of design.
It protocol design. So, I mean, a lot of dead skin
from JavaScript and have issues of this stuff but like you
Becoming becoming a JavaScript dumbbell.
IBC straight upright. Like what come from like a
serious, like background in distributed systems or like
architectures. Like protocol design you have
must have wrestled with like actually like okay, what's a
Master Slave and like multiple Master database systems or like
message to use and like Concepts like this back-end Concepts it.
Like I don't need a phds. I'm just saying that, like,
someone's rest with a lot of these stuff.
They've had actually large scale back and web systems have Have
distribute Nature's and you have to learn this stuff anyway so
like once you've dealt with this stuff microservices you kind of
get some ideas. Okay?
How to architect stuff and these ideas are the same ideas in 5
BC, so it's just like a different concept.
So I think a lot of his training, your mindset how to
design them, but what design, properly takes more time design,
it should be easy to implement and they can be able to do most
things as long as you can wait a little bit and you don't need
that giving a pose. It's like I do action at hold it
like a token transfer if it fails or turns your money,
Atomic. It is atomic over a longer time
span. So you can build all of that
functionality is just a little hard to design it.
That's all. And so clearly, if you want to
have things always together, you stick them together and same
changes, great. But like if they need to be a
little looser, coupling you can have very secure loose.
Couplings over multiple change. Cool.
Yeah, thanks so much and yeah, I think the near point was
interesting because I did the podcast will be, we on Alexander
like a few, I don't know. Previously, two months ago,
something like that. And that was a disappearing.
We just talked about there as well, and I thought it was very
fascinating, how they are, you know, chose to do to have this
kind of asynchronous nature even if contracts are on the same
chart, you know? Because they were like the
benefits outweigh Having this composability because it allows
them to you know, move contracts between different charts and the
developer sort of it doesn't have to care, right?
Like where they are because they behave the same way and so that
was a very interesting. Yeah, like different
perspective. Yeah.
I like yeah. There's my guys.
Yeah, absolutely governance. He wanted to talk about
governance as well. What's on your mind when it
comes to governance? Getting governance is like the
onions for its territory and I mean you were also around when
you're trying to design the POS governance for that and I think
in 2017 actually having some like on chain vote control.
Critical blocking features was like this crazy idea of heresy
almost you know, hardfocus only way voting right?
Like so it's normal. Now that is on chain governance
doing things like switching parameters and you know
releasing funds and you know controlling upgrades that's
normal. These days, right?
But they got was kind of like five years ago like crazy and
like POS was like this crazy invention that no one trusted
actually work and py W is only way.
So these are proved themselves and I think you watch that same
Evolution the same way that Dows have now come from mainstream
suddenly, they realize, okay, open up this up and now people's
rusted and forehead, like those run, everything is doubt, throw
tokens on their block them. They're great.
And I think it's a problem because the same people that
were nay saying it for years, didn't really learn, just how
government works. Let's use it, copy it, blindly
copy paste. And are now producing a lot of
bad designs actually. A governor signs, he's never
really understood. Why?
It worked the first place. So, there's some doubt, they
were quite well. A lot of those are
membership-based ones, which actually like one person, one
vote, and they actually have like time trusted ones.
Those can work amazingly. Well, right.
Like more locked out something and or even nouns I think are
interesting. A lot of these other ones are
just like one taco and votes, take it pump and dump things
like people, it is, they flashed.
Borrowing tokens to take over the governance this happened
before I write like and I think like wait you can't have a flash
loan, be able over the governs of your protocol is not secure
anymore. It's like giving up.
You vote financialized, your protocol.
So think is he safe guards there?
So I've been think about this like since I have launched and
since like you know Sonny this famous 0% attack commission
attack attack, whatever on the Hub, like we're like their
issues with this governance, like you can do lots of things
with, it's very powerful, but has limits yet.
Understand the limits, you understand what it works.
It doesn't work. Right?
Really understand this situation and I've been like, I felt like
I was doing a voice in the wilderness for a long time
because like, everything no doubt, it's work, great as just
a hub is works. And like it works for the Hub.
It's not work for your little chain.
That has a ten million market cap or 5 million market cap.
It might not be secure, is to give the Hub that is a real
community. And has proven a lot of these
gals have small, market caps are insecure with this with their
logic and I think it wasn't till I pushed up here.
We actually at the talk, I did. I didn't read foundations
without proof of Engagement which was like a proof of
authority. Proof of stake mixing.
They got like no traction and I wrote a white paper next year
and we build a 40 grade. So I'm, you know, if someone's
will have proof of Engagement, look at T, great.
Every medium article explained technically how it works, it's
like proof of an authority and proof of stake together, an
Imaging function, which I think is interesting privileges.
I could go on for a long thing but it's one piece of
experimentation, right? Of this of what you have to
prove steak. Did the Pope's take authority,
you can decide other systems. And I think we really need to
experiment, understand limits of the systems, we have understand
where they work well, and where they don't work, and it was
really like metallic last summer in summer 2021.
You posted beyond the coin, waited talking with the
governance, I believe in terms of the D gov and where the
limits are, and it's kind of theoretical thing you talk about
soulbound tokens now. And for me, that's like, okay,
sure that's why I was, pitching covid-19 that we have soulbound
tokens which are basically proof of authority.
Which you have engagement who reputation, but your reputation
is token cannot transfer, okay? Clearly got Transportation sell
it. Do you have your reputation on
the change cannot sell or buy, which is your time in the chain
and if your money, so, if you're like the old-time, this done
stuff, but don't have any money on the game.
You should have any vote and you have much money, but no say and
do anything. Who are you?
Just like this mixture of like actually having done work and
actually having money on the table and like putting your
money, where your mouth is. So I think that combination is
what experiment improve engagement T grade.
And it's just one experiment, right?
Just one experiment here. Is that the answer.
I think it's an interesting space we opened up and I think I
look at Dow Dow which is a really, really cool project on
Juno. So you know, big Heritage, a
cartel for doing that one. They've had like no raise self,
organized Community just doing things they've gotten like over
dozen deaths I believe without funding just believing Dallas
which is I think it's the most successful is the most
successful nandi 5 project the on cosmology.
Mmm, so dou dou that zone and you can launch your own doubt
like that and so they have you know multisig type gals.
Like you vote people in. It's just you know who those who
you have doubts, based on tokens, just like the standard.
I was just in theorem everywhere.
You have doubts basing nft holding you have Dows with mixed
token waiting. We're building a module to
extend it for window, which is using like curved style
multi-level token waiting and like to take that One and any it
will sub dowels work flows between like you can partially
delegate Authority a stubbed out as these people is supported
here through overridden and these larger stuff like Aragon
is building back on a theorem before they kind of died out a
petered out there. Building all these cool tooling
out there so I think it's a great tool kit because it
building a lot of components to allow people to mostly point and
click on the web interface Builder, own doubts but access
to all kinds of different models.
All kinds different rules and and I built a lot of these early
contracts in 2020 2021 is like demo contraction, multi cigs and
voting stuff and they took this stuff at built UI and is went
with it, they like they gone Way Beyond why bill.
So I'm really really impressed with them and I think it really
you know shows that Cosmos is not a theory of, its Cosmos is
really the Forefront of governance and it has been I
mean like what was launched the Hub was already Cutting Edge
like on chain governance and POS was cutting edge in 2019 right
in 2017 on believe Who work in 2019 is launched and made it as
Cutting Edge. And I think Dallas bring this
like the next level of this really bringing like new ideas,
a governance to new level. Yeah, I know.
I mean I think that's something I think also you know we talked
about mentioned this on this podcast before but that's just
like stands out to me so much. Like actually I remember when
you know when we work on Cosmos in 2017 I mean there was there
were others right who were basically like other blockchains
proof of stake blockchains there were also you know having
specifically taser some polka dot righted.
Also had the kind of governance mechanisms in there and they
talked a lot. About like oh you know, how they
have this, like elegant powerful complex going in scheme and I
feel like the cosmos it was more like, yeah, we're gonna have
this governance, right. But it wasn't so much at the at
the front and center and it was also kind of simple in
comparison. But you know, if he can get his
ended up like I mean I think polkadot governance is just like
very confusing and nothing too complicated and I was like
reading at some point that they're actually moving to a
more Oh, style model. I'm not totally sure if this is
true or not or if I misread that, but and then Hazel's, I
think the big issue is that, you know, only valid is could vote,
which is not ideal. No.
Like, I mean, I should, I think anyone's having to call him.
Small was really like, just very nice right?
That you have like validate. This will by default but then
individual token of this can override it.
And what I think has been just amazing.
It's like the amount of adoption that has gotten right, right.
Have like on the cosmos hop. You know often like you know,
eighty thousand accounts or somebody at that or you know
voting and you know, same as Moses like huge participation.
But then of course you're totally right, right?
Like this is just one form of governance and it makes sense
for some forms but like it's there's obviously also downsides
there, right? That you have okay someone who
million tokens and there's someone else with 100 tokens and
the person with 100 tokens maybe like super engaged, know a lot.
And so that's, you know, it's a hard problem, but at least I
feel like to recall some small has already gotten gotten pretty
far and works pretty well and he's gotten surprising amount of
Engagement and you know, we're excited to see.
I like the kind of doll down like the other models that can
be built. Yeah, I think the cosmology
Works quite well for most cases if there's engage Community.
Like, you know, if if most token holders care about the chain,
right? And are right, you actually
having each community and you have like solid market cap, like
it works pretty well actually. But those are yes.
So like, when you see a chain with not much usage and the
market cap drops to 1 or 2 million this bear Market which
has happened. It's a problem.
And what happened to Tara, like, when they invented five billion
lunar five trillion lunar. I don't know.
Five quadrillion. Luna, I'm not sure how many They
halted voting because it is a heart attack like some random
person. It just bought this for, like,
point, zero, zero, zero, zero. 1 cent has now infantry
governance. They could delegate their
thinking taking the whole chain, right?
Like, like they realized the limit of it.
And so this is I'm saying this failure modes in it right there,
failure to be aware of and that is Extreme failure mode but I
think any of these small chains is under 5 million, 10 million
market cap and has low engagement is just basically
waiting for it. And so if they were ever
actually had a higher At one point them down to this level.
That means someone's going to snap them up, right?
So, I think it means just like the, the POS works.
Well, if you said, hey, token pose, actually, engaged and
there's a solid market cap. No random Schmo.
Hacker can just buy a bunch of tokens and like, take over
because like you can't write, you can't fight him out because
people care about stuff. But yeah, and I think it works
well in the suit of like, you know, the decision about or
should we go there or should we do this, right?
But what it doesn't but it doesn't really work well for is
a sort of, you know, organizing work, and collaborating to do
stuff. So for example, I think the
whole mechanisms of like using governance to, you know, for
proposals for funding proposals, I think is not work.
I mean, it sort of works but it's not ideal, right?
Because I think, And you know, someone proposes, something,
people are like, all right, that sounds reasonable and they
defined it. But like was that the best thing
to fund and like maybe something else that like or in a different
way or someone else had to say my dear.
And like, so I think that's for example.
One thing where like the existing governance I feel is
isn't great. Yeah, I think this is cool
things out as working sub dials actually can like take the
sticking vote as like the basis of who is voting power.
Have your own different Logic on it or like subgroups of them can
vote on it. So they were like not even no
tokens. Actually sticking took out the
day of thing and then also allowing sub Dallas like okay
these Dow is appointed by the main the main governance.
Now point this Dow to do some things like voting funding with
some sort of budget, right? And they the but the apparent,
Can we vote them? Hey, this committee is not
working very well. Get rid of these guys, you know
they just wish the money like but so you'll have to have the
80,000 people involved every funding discussion.
Negotiations. You actually have negotiations
with the counterparty and they can spend, you know, a million
or two a month maybe on funding projects and ecosystem.
And if the money is going to bad places, you just basically swap
them out with someone else, right?
So like, and that might make sense in a way of more
decentralized and saying, you know, Foundation, it's a trend
in transparent Foundation funding stuff, right?
Like, I could actually allow decentralized way of doing it.
It's actually control volunteering governance but
still, you're right. Like you don't need 80,000
people discussion when someone's trying to go.
She ate like a funding. I will do this feature for your
chain and then like, you're like, okay, I'm waiting two
months in public discussions, to figure out whether like a funny
or not. I'm going somewhere else.
It's a lot faster, but I think you can definitely do it.
And I think, yeah, that allows you to add that onto existing
governance and kind of did not replace the standard one but
like extent places with this. Cool.
Well, thanks so much ease and it was really, really great to have
you on, like, you mentioned called, you know, the cause and
wasn't Academy. Maybe that's something some
people may be interested in. Can you tell a bit more about
that? Like, you know, if people want
to kind of get started and developing on top of calls and
was mm like where should they go?
And like what's the kind of offering that caused some
awesome Academy has for them? Cool.
So yeah, the cosmos of Academy academy.com.
Some awesome.com is can sign up now, we'll be opening up.
I believe early September, maybe mid September.
Let's see how the times lines are Slip a little bit.
We're going for quite a while with quite a few videos online.
The platform is already aligned, we're trying to finish up first
version of it. We preview already in sales, but
yeah, in a few weeks early, mid September, we have a going on
sign up there, you will get Basically bottom and top Rush
courses explaining how to build contracts in rust from an expert
train developer at can feos working a year and a half.
Now with us building, all kinds of Rush, contracts and building
a costume, awesome, and multitask.
And lots of these toolings used going through how to build
contract explaining Ross. Explaining contract logic,
explain how to build everything up there.
So if you have basic, Russ, knowledge, sign up for that
class and it will take you into like Advanced custom awesome
development. I think this is really a way we
want to do democratized People, so really get the skills of how
to build a good cause I'm awesome contracts out there and
complex columns and contract. How to compose contracts, how to
build these systems out there. And when everyone is for
everyone, it's free. So, yeah, it's basically us
trying to train out a whole new generation of really skilled
Cosmos developers. That's amazing.
Cool. And how long is the course?
The course of 10 weeks. It's a attend classes there.
One week long. There's some take a look for you
to do with them. You probably have faster if
you're skilled already, but yeah, it's a 10 Weaklings.
Who fantastic? That sounds like a great
experience. Yeah, yeah, no.
It should be. And I definitely is for,
everyone is for the people and feedbacks.
Welcome, please give feedback out there.
If you have stuff going to get better, we'll have other stuff
on kazim. JS, + 4 n Stuff coming later as
well at the questions. We have also some full-stack
courses coming up a lined up for you.
I also wanted to mention Huynh Dao briefly, and so there's I
mentioned earlier, it's basically a dowel we're
launching, or have launched on Jun 04.
For doing IBC based contract. I think it was going to be The
Cutting Edge of a lot of this stuff scaling out, protocols,
both vert horizontally, not vertically or horizontally.
I think it's very interesting stuff.
We building out there to reach huge scales and really push
Ibis. You can do and how it can make
like an actual entertaining of protocols.
There is an air drop out there. I want to say if you get this
before end of August until August 2020, we have an airdrop
airdrop dot wind down. A.com win with a why and check
out more there. For all Juno Osman region
stickers. Okay, I'll check that out as
well. Cool.
Well, thanks so much Ethan for coming on.
It was really great to have you on the podcast.
It's amazing. Like all of the work you've done
and we've contributed to the cosmos ecosystem and I'm super
excited to see, like, you know, what do people going to build in
this like you know next generation of stuff that's going
to come with, you know cause and walls.
Mm and mixing that with you know, to new IBC capabilities
and then move all these people going to be trained to cause an
awesome Academy Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm excited. I was dreaming of IBC since
like, you know, five years now, six years now of like what we
can do. So we're ecosystems here.
Everything's ready the tools. Already infrastructure
foundations. Ready and like let's just build
this guy's cool. And yeah, check out cause I'm
awesome. Check out chat Discord website.
Everything is on their chat. That Colin was not calm for
Discord. Lots of good help there.
Yeah. Come on, cool.
Thanks so much Ethan and of course, will include links to
all of those in the show notes and thanks so much for our
listener. For once again, tuning in, if
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