1
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,400
Welcome to epicenter the podcast
where we interview crypto 

2
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,600
Founders filters, and thought 
leaders. 

3
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,000
I'm Santiago real, and I'm here 
today with State layer. 

4
00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:24,900
State layer is a guest host 
today. 

5
00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:29,600
He is a, if, for anyone who 
doesn't know him kind of and GM 

6
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,600
III, guess Yes, but you know, 
for anyone who does it, he is a 

7
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,000
prolific Twitter Anon, who it, 
you know, just has awesome 

8
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,900
thoughts on crypto and wanted to
come on today and guest host an 

9
00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:44,600
episode. 
And so, here he is today, today.

10
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,600
We're speaking with Joey Center.
Oh, he's the founder of a 

11
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,600
protocol, which is a stable coin
being built on ethereum and 

12
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,600
takes a lot of ideas and the, 
you know, long lineage of stable

13
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,800
coins and applies them which 
will learn about today. 

14
00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:02,200
But so Before we talk about, 
show you about Faye would like 

15
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,200
to tell you a little bit about 
our sponsors for this week. 

16
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,600
So the first step is tally. 
Tally is a new wallet for web 3 

17
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,100
and defy. 
That sees the wallet as a public

18
00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:13,900
good. 
Think of it, like a 

19
00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:16,400
community-owned. 
Alternative to mask. 

20
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,800
It has all the same features as 
meta mask, but the difference is

21
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:25,300
that it's 100% open source under
a GPL V3 license and it's also 

22
00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:28,700
100% user owned with all the 
prophets flowing to the 

23
00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:30,900
community. 
Not Not a corporation. 

24
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,400
The launcher penalty is coming 
in the new year, but there's an 

25
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,900
early version available right 
now called the tally Community 

26
00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:41,300
Edition, which is before the law
before the Dow Launches on 

27
00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:44,200
December 15th, you know, and 
because it's his community 

28
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,900
wallet, they're ready for 
feedback and want to know how 

29
00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:48,500
they can improve. 
So, you know, if you have any 

30
00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:51,000
features that you're looking for
in your ideal wallet or 

31
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,800
something, that annoys you about
your current wallet, you should 

32
00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:56,000
post on the Discord and let them
know. 

33
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,900
And so that way, it can be a 
really community-oriented run 

34
00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,200
project. 
The community calls feature a 

35
00:02:01,208 --> 00:02:05,200
new partner each week and have 
about 500 people attending. 

36
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,800
And so, all the info you need is
that tally dot cash. 

37
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,200
Also sponsoring today is gnosis 
Safe. 

38
00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:15,000
Digital assets. 
Today on web, three are usually 

39
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,700
controlled by a single private 
key. 

40
00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:22,100
I hope the tribe multisig or 
something is not, but in this is

41
00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,300
a challenge because single 
private keys are often lost or 

42
00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:29,100
compromised, and all the funds 
are gone and they often have to 

43
00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:32,200
trust Who's holding these 
private keys to like, you know, 

44
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,600
govern them Nosa safe solves 
this problem by being a smart 

45
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,300
wallet that enables users to 
control digital assets. 

46
00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:42,000
With much more granular, 
permissions involving multiple 

47
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,500
private Keys. 
A subset of which is required 

48
00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,700
for executing transactions. 
These keys. 

49
00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:48,800
Can then be stored on a 
different wallet or software 

50
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,100
wallet and even shared across, 
multiple people gnosis safe 

51
00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:54,800
extra layer of security and 
personalization. 

52
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,000
Make it the most trusted web 
three Asset Management solution 

53
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,700
for individuals teams and House 
and it's already being used to 

54
00:03:01,700 --> 00:03:04,600
store over 100 billion US 
dollars worth of virtual assets 

55
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,600
today. 
On top of that of six. 

56
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,700
They've also provides 
opportunities for developers to 

57
00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:11,100
plug into the platform and build
their own daps and 

58
00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:15,700
permissionless modules. 
Visit gnosis Dash saved dot IO 

59
00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:17,500
to learn more. 
And get started with setting up 

60
00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:22,400
your own save today. 
Who so Jerry welcome to the 

61
00:03:22,408 --> 00:03:25,200
podcast. 
I'd like to you know start off 

62
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,900
this with a disclaimer that I 
was an investor and face. 

63
00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:31,200
Oh you you know, that should 
tell everyone that I love fail a

64
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,400
lot and which is why I'm so 
excited for this episode, but 

65
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,300
just want to give a fair 
disclaimer before jumping in. 

66
00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:40,400
So Joey welcome to the show. 
Hey, thanks, honey. 

67
00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:43,200
It's good to be here. 
And yeah, it's been a it's been 

68
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,500
a ride then, you know awesome 
like having you around and state

69
00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:49,900
to he hopped in later when it 
wasn't cool. 

70
00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:54,200
And and so for that I think he 
brings a very good context as 

71
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,700
well. 
So yeah, very excited to be 

72
00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:01,400
here. 
You want to maybe start off with

73
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,300
this colors a little bit about 
your background? 

74
00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:06,500
And you know, what got you into 
crypto in the first place. 

75
00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:10,300
What were you doing before? 
I think we first met at the SF 

76
00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:15,000
blockchain week hackathon a few 
years ago back in like 2019 and 

77
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,899
you were like you were building 
something. 

78
00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:19,100
There. 
Was that your first parade 

79
00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:20,300
decrypter. 
Where's the stuff you were doing

80
00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:22,900
before that too? 
Yeah. 

81
00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:25,600
That was my that was my first 
time building something sort of 

82
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,300
in public, but I've been into 
crypto aetherium since like, 

83
00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:36,200
2017, I definitely hopped in 
that last, you know, cycle and I

84
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,200
was trading shit coins, as, you 
know, buying a bunch of stuff 

85
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,200
and losing money and making 
money all over the place after 

86
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,600
everything went down. 
I maintained a very strong, you 

87
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,500
know, intellectual love for 
aetherium and for all the apps 

88
00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:52,600
that were being built it back, 
then it was basically just 

89
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,100
compound and maker it out and, 
you know, swap. 

90
00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:58,900
But then like slowly, Mike more 
apps came out. 

91
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,500
Read every white paper to get my
hands on. 

92
00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:04,300
I even taught a class on 
solidity and I do where I went 

93
00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:07,700
to school. 
And, and then when I graduated, 

94
00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:10,200
I came out to the Bay, they had 
the SF blockchain week. 

95
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,300
We built a really cool, like it 
was kind of like fruit combo or 

96
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,200
like, I don't know like, like in
sedap or whatever where you 

97
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,100
could like, chain actions and it
was built on. 

98
00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:23,100
Are they using their flash 
loans, which I thought were the 

99
00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:25,800
coolest thing ever. 
When I, when I first heard a 

100
00:05:25,808 --> 00:05:29,200
flash loans, I was like this is 
gonna be sick and it feels like 

101
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,200
People like now flash. 
Those are just like, oh you got 

102
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,200
rug because they were some bug 
that a flashlight exploited and 

103
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,200
that's like why flash sons are 
still relevant. 

104
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,800
But anyway, they technical, I'm 
a developer. 

105
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,200
I wrote all the code for baby 
one and a lot of the code for 

106
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,600
v2, but now we have some sweet 
devs on the team that aren't 

107
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,100
just me. 
And yeah, like always trying to 

108
00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:53,800
innovate. 
I care a lot about defying, 

109
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,300
where we're going and that's 
kind of how I got here and how I

110
00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,100
built that. 
So I'm happy to jam more on that

111
00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:02,300
as we Yeah, as we as we chat. 
Cool. 

112
00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:04,800
And so then how do you, you 
know, in this process? 

113
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,200
How do you choose to? 
You know, I remember you were 

114
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,300
working on some things around, 
flash loans and stuff. 

115
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,100
How do you decide to like, you 
know, stable coins? 

116
00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:17,100
That's what I want to go fix 
table coins, as opposed to the 

117
00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:18,600
many other things you could be 
doing. 

118
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,800
Yeah, so I think the like when 
you're a builder like at heart, 

119
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,800
the way that you want to go 
about, like starting a project 

120
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,400
is you have to see a need that 
you feel like you're the right 

121
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,700
person to solve and so it wasn't
that I'm like obsessed with 

122
00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,100
stable coins or anything. 
Like I just care about defying 

123
00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:41,700
crypto and I saw that like our 
options were tether ill USD see 

124
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,700
like cool but you know, not long
term and died, which was like 

125
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,100
slowly becoming not cool. 
Like I I still love maker now. 

126
00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:53,500
I think it's like, you know, 
foundational infrastructure, but

127
00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:57,600
at least you know, especially in
like the 2020 time maker doll 

128
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,100
was not like the coolest thing a
defy at all. 

129
00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,800
And I think that they've really 
like, you know, made some strong

130
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,100
moves kind of they're setting 
themselves up to do, you know, 

131
00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:10,400
real-world assets and a lot of 
like ESG stuff. 

132
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,200
And you got some really cool 
Niche that I think they'll 

133
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,400
continue to fill and they'll 
continue continue to be 

134
00:07:15,407 --> 00:07:17,500
dominant. 
But anyway, like those were the 

135
00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:18,900
options and I was like not very 
inspiring. 

136
00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:20,600
Tired. 
And I saw these cool lending 

137
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,700
markets and derivatives and 
things popping up. 

138
00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:24,100
But stable coins were going 
nowhere. 

139
00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,300
And then there was all these 
algo coins that were like really

140
00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:30,600
shaking it up. 
Those were not going to make it.

141
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,100
Like I was involved in empty 
said dollar, you know, I did a 

142
00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:37,600
little bit of development work 
there and I tried to make it 

143
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,100
like less of a Ponzi and more of
an actual stable coin, but you 

144
00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:45,100
know, we saw how that turned out
and it was really cool because 

145
00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:46,800
it was super decentralized 
project. 

146
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,600
It really got my like my Brain, 
kind of thinking about stable 

147
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,600
coins and I realized that like 
where we want to go with stable 

148
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,200
coins who want to have like 
asset-backed stable coins that 

149
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,200
have more algorithmic 
management. 

150
00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:02,300
Redeem ability. 
We want to have like protocol 

151
00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:05,300
controlled liquidity. 
That was a big theme in one of 

152
00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:08,300
the reasons why empty said 
dollar failed versus things like

153
00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:11,300
Olympus or kicking ass right now
is because of protocol on 

154
00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:13,000
liquidity. 
That was the big idea behind 

155
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,100
Faye and I was like, why is no 
one doing this? 

156
00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:19,200
I'm going to quit my job as an 
Enterprise software engineer and

157
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,100
just like, go build it. 
And that's how that's how we got

158
00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:23,000
here. 
So it wasn't like, I was 

159
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,200
obsessed with stable coins, but 
I was very much like trying to 

160
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,500
follow the pocket and defy and 
Faye is just kind of, you know, 

161
00:08:29,700 --> 00:08:32,900
it was so in the Zeitgeist that 
we had the crazy launch that 

162
00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:35,900
we're going to talk about and 
that's because it was like we 

163
00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:37,799
hit we hit it on the nose with 
the idea. 

164
00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:42,000
But the execution was, you know,
a little bit behind the idea at 

165
00:08:42,008 --> 00:08:45,500
least in an initial stages, but 
baby to is going to be really 

166
00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:48,600
sick and so I'm I'm super 
excited to just like tell the 

167
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,000
whole story and and where we are
now. 

168
00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:53,800
Cool. 
Yeah, maybe you want water. 

169
00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:58,600
Let's jump into that story. 
So like, you know, okay, so it's

170
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,800
a what is it? 
November 20, 20 USD just fell 

171
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,100
over and you are like, okay. 
I want to take these learnings 

172
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:09,300
and start to do something with 
it. 

173
00:09:09,308 --> 00:09:11,300
What was the story? 
What was, what were the steps? 

174
00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:13,600
Did you start working on it by 
yourself? 

175
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,500
And you try to put the other 
team. 

176
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,800
Did you come up with the idea of
first, or did you start just 

177
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,200
like, yeah. 
Well, all of the steps from 

178
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:21,200
there until. 
Yeah. 

179
00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,900
And you launch relatively pretty
fast, right? 

180
00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:29,300
Because you went from like, you 
know, almost I DIA to, you know,

181
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,400
raising and launching within 
what 3 to 4 months. 

182
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,400
Yeah, so the the I was involved 
in empty said dollar and call it

183
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,400
October 20, 20. 
And I had the idea for Fay like 

184
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,600
right around the end of October.
So it was literally like I was 

185
00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,600
in a side aisles like guys we 
need protocol own liquidity and 

186
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,900
they were like, yeah, whatever. 
Let's just keep incentivizing 

187
00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:53,400
people. 
They were like having a lot of 

188
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,100
fun and empty said dollar 
continued to blow up through 

189
00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,600
December but in a good way, like
if I mean, not in a good way, 

190
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,300
but in like a TV, elcano way, 
like it went up to like 600 

191
00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,000
million. 
Ian Supply. 

192
00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:10,100
And that's while I was building 
faith because I realize like a 

193
00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:12,500
that dollars is probably not 
going to make it. 

194
00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:15,400
They actually wanted me to build
their V2 or be at least be one 

195
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,600
of the devs on V2. 
And I told him, like, oh, I'm 

196
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,200
busy with work, but I was 
building faith. 

197
00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:29,000
And so so yeah, like I had the 
idea for like protocol own 

198
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,800
liquidity. 
I was I was jamming on a bunch 

199
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,100
of mechanisms in my head if you 
want to like your more Like 

200
00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:36,700
maybe what I've done. 
Like several podcast about it, 

201
00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:41,500
the Delphi one was really good 
as like historical context, but 

202
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,000
the tldr was the market was like
crazy. 

203
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,700
It was equals 600 dollars when I
went in October, by the time we 

204
00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,100
launched it was 2000. 
So we were like really trying to

205
00:10:52,108 --> 00:10:54,400
just like get the idea out 
there. 

206
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,000
Like it was like a ship or die 
kind of mentality in retrospect.

207
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,100
That was a mistake and I was 
probably the biggest one which 

208
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:05,900
was like we just It wanted to 
get Fay out there because we 

209
00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:08,500
felt like stable coins. 
There were so many competitors, 

210
00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:12,000
you know, tracks was coming out 
Olympus I guess was like kind of

211
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,500
a stable coin, but now it's 
clearly like not a stable coin 

212
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:16,100
it but it's still pretty similar
to Faye. 

213
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,100
And then, you know, empty said 
dollar V 2, you know, they 

214
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:23,000
finally ship that didn't really 
go very well, but there was all 

215
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,200
these other algo coins so much 
competition. 

216
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,900
And so it was really like we 
race around with, you know, some

217
00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:34,000
investors that I like new and 
friends and then and recent To 

218
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,800
invest and I was like, no I'm 
building. 

219
00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:39,000
And then we did another round 
like within like a month and a 

220
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,100
half and we probably didn't need
to do that round and it 

221
00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:46,100
definitely attracted a lot of 
attention and all those backers 

222
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:49,000
are awesome. 
They're cool to work with but it

223
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,100
really elevated the stakes a 
lot. 

224
00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:53,300
But, yeah, it's sunny, sunny you
and Sonny was in there. 

225
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:56,100
It elevated. 
This takes a lot because now, 

226
00:11:56,100 --> 00:12:00,000
like all eyes were on us and, 
you know, we were moving so fast

227
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,400
already that. 
Yeah, in the market was going 

228
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,200
crazy. 
As it was, it was honestly like 

229
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,300
a surreal experience to be a 
part of that, you know, very 

230
00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:13,100
small team, very ambitious idea 
and that. 

231
00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:16,900
So I would say like one of the 
mistakes was like, just trying 

232
00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,100
to get to Market as fast as 
possible like just because it 

233
00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:20,900
was like, that's what everyone 
was doing. 

234
00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:23,900
There was so much pressure from 
like the bull market and all the

235
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:28,200
competition. 
I would say like do things right

236
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,800
like take your time, take like 
blinders on. 

237
00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:32,400
That would be like the big 
lesson. 

238
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,700
There is like Don't just do 
things because you feel like 

239
00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:40,100
pressure from anyone else, like,
do things the way that you want 

240
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:43,000
to do them because that's the 
way that you want to do it. 

241
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:45,100
That's the one that's like one 
of the pilot. 

242
00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:48,200
Like two, biggest lessons. 
And then the other one was like,

243
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,100
keep things. 
Super, super simple, the launch.

244
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:54,600
So save you want itself was very
ambitious. 

245
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:57,600
The launch was also an ambitious
type of lunch. 

246
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,100
I think it was actually super 
close to being really good. 

247
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,400
But the there was a couple 
things we did wrong. 

248
00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:07,200
Wrong one was, it was uncapped 
and to was there was this like, 

249
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,700
weird airdrop? 
That was kind of mixed in with 

250
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:15,700
the launch plans, where people 
would get like more dollar value

251
00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:19,200
than what they put in in terms 
of like so everyone thought 

252
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,200
everyone who came into Genesis 
thought they were going to make 

253
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,900
20% immediately. 
And if you've been around for 

254
00:13:23,908 --> 00:13:25,700
long enough, you know, that 
that's when you should be very 

255
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:30,200
worried. 
And like, we tried to tell 

256
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,700
people, like, hey, here's how 
Genesis works. 

257
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:35,400
We put out all these Goals, we 
gave spreadsheets. 

258
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,400
We wanted to like educate people
but it's so hard. 

259
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,000
The market just like really ran 
away with it. 

260
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,400
And then we got so much demand 
like way more than we possibly 

261
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,100
could have expected. 
We it was the biggest defy 

262
00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:48,200
launch. 
I think in history still to this

263
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,500
day 1.3 billion in eith 
absolutely nuts. 

264
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,200
And yeah, there's like, those 
are the two big lessons I'd say 

265
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,200
like, don't rush and keep it as 
simple as possible. 

266
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,400
So that like, you know, people 
who only look at your thing for 

267
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:06,000
Ten seconds before a pink and 
like know what's gonna happen. 

268
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,700
And I yeah, there's a lot more 
in there to unpack but that's 

269
00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:13,400
kind of the very broad strips of
of what happened. 

270
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,900
And and then obviously there was
like that's up until Genesis 

271
00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:19,000
right? 
Then there's a whole like what 

272
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,300
happened after we can go there. 
But yeah. 

273
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,200
What, like it looks like you 
unmuted. 

274
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,800
I'm curious. 
Like, what was it like from your

275
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:31,800
perspective or on the outside? 
Like what, you know, What are 

276
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,400
your thoughts on like the launch
or whatever? 

277
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,600
I'm curious. 
I think I'm going to, I'm going 

278
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,200
to take this one actually. 
Yeah, cuz I was watching it more

279
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:48,400
from from afar and I like I one 
thing that I realized is that or

280
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,900
probably even if there was like 
a lot of like extra like too 

281
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:57,600
much like fake creation like you
couldn't like like you create 

282
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,500
like too much Faith first, and I
probably that wasn't 

283
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:02,300
sustainable. 
First because there was like so 

284
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:06,500
many people that that like try 
to participate in the launch but

285
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:10,800
like, even then I think which 
your current design without like

286
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,700
the penalties and the 
incentives, like the current 

287
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:16,100
design and especially like the 
V2 design. 

288
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:21,100
I'm thinking that it's possible 
that I think it was still still 

289
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:23,400
still of work, right? 
Because if there was like a 

290
00:15:23,408 --> 00:15:26,300
certainly less demand Than 
People was just as of like 

291
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:31,000
redeem, their favor teeth like 
in your current V2 design and 

292
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:33,700
Like things would have went 
smoothly possibly. 

293
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:35,600
I think, which is kind of 
interesting. 

294
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,300
Like, even in those like kind of
like adversarial, like 

295
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,400
conditions, like probably would 
have still work if like I'm 

296
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,100
thinking about this correctly. 
Yeah, I agree completely. 

297
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,300
And the, the old like your V2 is
your V 1. 

298
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,100
Oh my God, that's never been 
more. 

299
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:56,100
True than with Faye. 
Like say V1 was basically broken

300
00:15:56,100 --> 00:16:00,300
and Favi to is really the goal. 
It's the protocol, controlled 

301
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,800
value back to preserve, you 
know, want to one, radium 

302
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,400
ability, algorithmic risk 
management. 

303
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,200
It's like everything that Favi 
one should have been. 

304
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,100
And if we had lunch with Favi to
it. 

305
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,700
I would have really, really like
we would be in a much different 

306
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:18,500
position now, and we're already 
in like an objectively, really 

307
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:20,200
good position. 
There from a protocol 

308
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,800
perspective. 
Like all of the numbers are 

309
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,100
fantastic. 
The protocol is making like 

310
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:29,500
eight figures a year on yield. 
You know, like we have a ton of 

311
00:16:29,508 --> 00:16:31,400
Doubt Partnerships. 
Like that's really our product 

312
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,800
Market. 
Fit is like working with other 

313
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:38,100
Dows and yeah, like it took time
to get here but not that much 

314
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,000
time that was six months ago or 
seven months ago, you know, so 

315
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:43,100
it's pretty crazy. 
How fast this. 

316
00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:45,900
His moves and, you know, we're 
just trying to learn and stay 

317
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,500
relevant and really like the on 
the edge, with all these other 

318
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,100
like defy 2.0, dowels or 
whatever. 

319
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:53,500
Like that's that's where we're 
most comfortable. 

320
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,900
And I think that we're hitting 
our stride right now. 

321
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,900
Don't want to belabor too much 
on the launch, but I think in 

322
00:16:59,908 --> 00:17:03,200
general, you know, I think that 
I do actually think this side of

323
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,000
the launcher is not the issue. 
I think the size of the launcher

324
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,500
is a good thing. 
I think that the getting that 

325
00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:12,099
billion dollar in protocol 
controlled value is what gives 

326
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,300
sort of this flexibility to like
sort of really, you know, take 

327
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,800
this thing to end like have 
scale and like should start to 

328
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:23,500
you know, that side of the PCB 
is what enabled sort of doing 

329
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:26,099
some of the doubted, our 
interactions that are going on, 

330
00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:28,500
which we'll get into. 
I think that. 

331
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:32,700
Yeah, firstly, I think the only 
thing that could have that would

332
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:33,900
have been solved. 
Would have been like, you know, 

333
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:36,900
like you mentioned that like 
instant 20% increase when and 

334
00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:39,400
said, maybe there should have 
been a little bit of a delay 

335
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,400
between the sale and the 
distribution of tokens and that 

336
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,400
would have allowed for sort of 
a, you know, I think that could 

337
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600
affect it but you know, aren't 
sort of maybe let's go a little 

338
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:58,700
bit into some of the technicals 
of like how Favi one work. 

339
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,200
And so that way we can use that 
to like learn how baby to 

340
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:04,100
differ. 
So you want to just give us a 

341
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:08,800
brief overview for the listeners
on what the mechanism of baby 

342
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,400
one. 
It was and what was sort of the 

343
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,200
like the main Insight that you 
usually brought in. 

344
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:20,700
Yeah, so if everyone was just 
complicated like it had to Peg 

345
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,900
mechanisms and one likes of core
engine, which is protocol 

346
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:27,400
controlled value. 
That were absolutely keeping 

347
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,400
first, baby to like that was the
big idea that I think is the 

348
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,300
real staying power in terms of 
maintaining the peg, they V1 had

349
00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:39,000
Direct incentives and rebates 
where direct incentives. 

350
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,200
Were basically a penalty applied
on trades. 

351
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,300
If you're hurting the peg. 
Egg and a reward. 

352
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:48,700
If you're going back to the peg,
sounded really nice and like, 

353
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,300
you know, some simple models 
basically showed that it was 

354
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:54,800
like fine, but the problem was 
that each was like super 

355
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,800
volatile. 
And that it's a very soft touch 

356
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,400
kind of mechanism. 
And when you throw a billion 

357
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,000
dollars at it, it just totally 
breaks. 

358
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,800
Can you talk about? 
How does it break? 

359
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,300
Like what, what, what 
specifically breaks? 

360
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,200
Yeah. 
I mean, I mean, I mean, look, if

361
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,400
you're if you're selling a 
stable coin and you're facing a 

362
00:19:10,408 --> 00:19:13,400
25 percent penalty, that's not a
stable core. 

363
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,100
It's worth 75 cents. 
If you can't sell it for a 

364
00:19:16,108 --> 00:19:18,600
dollar, it's worth 75 cents. 
And that was the big problem is 

365
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,400
that the protocol effectively 
rugs liquidity. 

366
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:27,400
When people want to sell and 
that is like, you know, it from 

367
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,800
a game theory perspective, like 
you would just hold it because 

368
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,300
you'd be like well someone else 
is going to take the penalty and

369
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:37,500
I'm just going to hold it. 
But the problem is that game 

370
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:41,000
theory is like not a good way to
design a defy mechanism and like

371
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,100
I'm going to I'm going to stick 
to that like you want to have 

372
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:47,000
much Like more Savage mechanisms
like Game Theory, works until it

373
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,400
doesn't. 
We saw that with empty said, 

374
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:55,100
dollar, maybe someone will do it
like, you know, whatever but you

375
00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:58,600
want to have like hard 
mechanisms, 33 question, mark. 

376
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,500
I would love to talk about 
Olympus for a second. 

377
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:05,100
I like the project. 
They have an awesome community 

378
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,500
in order to like we could talk 
about them if it comes up again,

379
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,400
but but basically. 
Yeah, like Game Theory stuff, 

380
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,100
man. 
And so you need to memes. 

381
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:14,600
You need. 
Hardcore Community. 

382
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,700
They have it. 
We'll see how it goes. 

383
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,900
I'm definitely cheering them on 
that being said. 

384
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,300
So like there's this game. 
Three aspect of direct 

385
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:23,700
incentives that didn't really 
work. 

386
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,500
Especially when you throw like 
hard adversarial conditions out 

387
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:31,500
it because that's when you're 
it's like if you have any kind 

388
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,800
of unstable equilibrium that is 
going to get snapped in half if 

389
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,300
you if you throw a lot of chaos 
at it. 

390
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,100
So and then the real weights 
were like very Innovative and 

391
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,600
actually they worked. 
The thing about re weights, you 

392
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,700
just bring the secondary market 
price back up to a dollar and 

393
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:51,900
that's basically like redeem 
ability, you know, but it's 

394
00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:55,100
redeem ability with this time 
component that you like re wait 

395
00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:58,700
every, you know, so many hours. 
So what we realized was that it 

396
00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:00,500
was just complexity for no real 
reason. 

397
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,300
It kind of gives them an 
advantage has two Bots, 

398
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:05,800
arbitrageurs? 
Like so we just said, you know 

399
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,200
what screw direct incentives, we
scrap those really early and 

400
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,400
then re weights we transition to
redeem ability model in June and

401
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,600
Early, June or end of May and 
since then the faith has been 

402
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:22,000
like airtight. 
So really like, I completely 

403
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,200
disregard those first two months
of this history. 

404
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,900
I was like You know, learning in
public and iterating on a very 

405
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:33,300
high-risk mechanism, you know, 
and we made very safe moves. 

406
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,600
We move slowly carefully since 
the launch. 

407
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,800
We got it all sorted. 
And then and since then we were 

408
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,500
just like put our heads down 
planned, V2, like phase been in 

409
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:46,400
this very like transitionary 
period since June where we've 

410
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,400
been like scrapping old code, 
adding like putting diversifying

411
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,100
at like buying stable coins, 
doing all this stuff and now The

412
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:59,300
thing is like, ready for Favi to
which is like going to go live 

413
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:02,000
basically tomorrow with an 
asterisk. 

414
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,100
But yeah, like really really, 
really pumped about like the 

415
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,800
path and where we're going. 
However, one of the things I was

416
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,800
like, sort of interesting about 
V1, what and I were just the PHA

417
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,600
idea, was you were one of the 
first to sort of really try to 

418
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,300
tackle. 
How do you do an under 

419
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:23,700
collateralized stable coin? 
You know, before that everything

420
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:28,300
was either over collateralize or
like, no, collateralized. 

421
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:32,400
And you, you one of the one of 
the Theses of bay was that, 

422
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,600
like, hey, is there something 
somewhere in the middle that 

423
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,700
gets some of the best of both 
worlds? 

424
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,300
Is that still, the goal or is 
that something that has also 

425
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:45,500
transitioned away? 
I'm glad you asked. 

426
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:50,900
So basically, what I have 
learned the hard way is that the

427
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,900
only way to make a stable 
Corners to have redeem ability, 

428
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,200
obviously, like I don't really 
believe in like absolutes. 

429
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,500
So I'm sure that somehow 
somewhere someone's going to 

430
00:23:01,508 --> 00:23:03,900
make a stable coin that doesn't 
involve redeem ability. 

431
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:06,700
But if you point to any stable 
coin that's working at scale. 

432
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,000
It's redeemable for $1 worth of 
something. 

433
00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,700
Hang on both sides. 
Tara's like this for axis like 

434
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:17,400
this U STC is like, this guy is 
like this with the PSM, you 

435
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,400
know, like any stable coin that 
works at scale is redeemable 

436
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,200
period or you have a rye like 
stable growing where it's 

437
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,600
volatile but only like a little 
bit and that's the only way 

438
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,700
because otherwise, the 
volatility has to go somewhere. 

439
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:36,300
So redeem ability is like 
absolutely essential and so it 

440
00:23:36,308 --> 00:23:38,500
actually doesn't matter whether 
you're over or under a 

441
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:41,400
collateralized. 
If your redeemable at scale, 

442
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,900
then it's the other properties 
of your stable coin that are 

443
00:23:43,908 --> 00:23:46,900
interesting whether you're over 
under collateralized is just a 

444
00:23:46,908 --> 00:23:49,300
symptom of your goals. 
Right? 

445
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,400
So under the under 
collateralization, in a vacuum 

446
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:58,000
is a - property. 
It's like you're all things, all

447
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,700
things equal. 
If you have radium ability, you 

448
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:01,700
want more collateral, you want 
collateral? 

449
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,700
That's not your own token 
because like, that's a, you 

450
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,400
know, systemic risk, if your 
collateralizing with your own 

451
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,800
governance, do In when things go
bad, they go very bad and like 

452
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,900
it can work. 
I am very very like, you know, 

453
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,000
curious and optimistic about 
like Tara and fracks. 

454
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,200
And you know, those teams are 
executing phenomenally. 

455
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,500
They have great ecosystems. 
The the spirit of theta B2 is 

456
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,900
minimize dependence on internal 
assets. 

457
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:36,200
So tribe is like qualitatively 
different then fraction Tara, 

458
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,600
even though it uses some similar
mechanisms and I would love to 

459
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,300
get into that. 
And the idea is like, let's have

460
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:44,900
as much PCV as possible because 
that's where we win. 

461
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,100
You know, like PCB is the moat. 
So we don't want to be under 

462
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:51,800
collateralized, we can be, but 
like, in the long term, the 

463
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,300
mechanism should Converge on 
either 100% or monotonically and

464
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:00,900
not monotonically increasing but
like, increasing Cloud relation 

465
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:04,100
and reserves. 
And it all depends on like how 

466
00:25:04,108 --> 00:25:07,700
much demand there is for Fay 
versus how fast we can grow PCV.

467
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:13,400
And Like the V2 is designed to 
absorb under collateralization 

468
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,700
but not stay there. 
That's pretty much the that's 

469
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:19,600
pretty much the unlock. 
It's like you just need to have 

470
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,900
redeem ability and then all 
collaterals. 

471
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:24,200
Good collateral. 
You've mentioned, this term 

472
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,500
redeem ability a couple of 
times. 

473
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:27,200
Can you explain? 
What does that mean? 

474
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,000
And what does that look like? 
Yeah. 

475
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,800
So if you have an asset that you
can sell for a dollar and buy 

476
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,900
for a dollar at all times, it's 
worth a dollar. 

477
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,300
That's the whole idea of like a 
stable kind. 

478
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:41,100
So I say, iridium ability I say,
You can mix a for a dollar worth

479
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:42,400
of something. 
Right now. 

480
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,100
It's ev2 is going to be eat and 
die and we're going to add like 

481
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,400
other assets as well. 
If you could buy it for a dollar

482
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,800
and sell it for a dollar. 
It's a dollar. 

483
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,100
That's the idea. 
So you redeem it for protocol 

484
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:55,000
reserves. 
Sam. 

485
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,700
Will you redeem you? 
Oh, CeCe for a dollar from 

486
00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:00,500
coinbase. 
Basically, the learnings that 

487
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,900
is, that's the only way to have 
something at exactly $1. 

488
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,200
Right? 
Like died. 

489
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,200
I tried to make this like and 
eventually realize like, yeah, I

490
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,400
need something where someone can
come in and like dearly exchange

491
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,600
for a dollar. 
Otherwise, it won't be like 

492
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:19,500
otherwise, it might be at 1.1 
1.0 1.0 1.0 to it. 

493
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:21,800
Like you can't really make 
something stick out. 

494
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,200
Exactly one daughter just with 
Game Theory, like Joey was 

495
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,100
saying Yeah, at least not not at
this scale of defy, where 

496
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:32,900
everything is like, you know, 30
percent volatility. 

497
00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:37,500
Maybe if we have like, you know,
if you talk about like very very

498
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,400
sophisticated financial markets,
like if the if the FED If the 

499
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,500
Fed lowers interest rates by 25 
basis points, everyone loses 

500
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:47,800
their shit, it's like that. 
That is not the world that 

501
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,300
defies in right now and maybe 
like you could have more game 

502
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:56,100
theoretic like soft-touch, 
institutional mechanisms, but I 

503
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,300
Do have this suspicion that like
the traditional Finance industry

504
00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:02,600
is basically just run on like 
human algorithms. 

505
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,600
Like oh the FED lowered interest
rates. 

506
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,200
I'm going to go sell all these 
assets. 

507
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,200
Like I don't think there's like 
it's just like all this like 

508
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,600
coordination at like a big 
scale. 

509
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,000
I don't think there's anything 
like objective about like 

510
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,900
interest rates directly 
affecting the economy on, such a

511
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:19,900
fine grained scale if that makes
sense. 

512
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:25,900
Yeah, okay. 
So Joy like for the V2 is this 

513
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,500
the redeem? 
Oh redeem ability mean that 

514
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:32,700
you're like completely gonna 
like like ditch the re weights 

515
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,800
and like directly balancing the 
units for pool. 

516
00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:42,400
Yeah, so re weights are gone and
like same thing with direct 

517
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,300
incentives. 
Like both of these features in a

518
00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:48,700
vacuum or interesting mechanisms
that were not gone forever 

519
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,000
necessarily but like V2 is going
to be fine without them. 

520
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,700
So like what we're going to do 
is we're going to build on down 

521
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,100
sir. 
We're really like we have a 

522
00:27:58,108 --> 00:27:59,300
great relationship with that 
team. 

523
00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:04,100
We did a treasury swap like a 
couple of weeks ago and bouncers

524
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:06,800
Kind of Perfect for like a PCV 
system. 

525
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,800
You could have a Liquidity. 
You can re hypothecate assets. 

526
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,000
So if we do any kind of 
rebalancing it's going to happen

527
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,500
like using balancers mechanisms 
and not using like crazy custom 

528
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:20,000
code that we wrote. 
So that's idea. 

529
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,900
But V2 doesn't need it. 
It's probably not going to have 

530
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:28,800
it at least not in the same way.
It'll look different if we if we

531
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,500
had free weights back in. 
Then I'm just curious. 

532
00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:35,200
Like, do you think that means? 
Because right now it's like the,

533
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,700
the liquidity, on Faye and Ethos
like a hundreds of millions, 

534
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:40,800
right? 
Like the, are you do you think 

535
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,200
you're going to end that, that 
accrues, like a lot of 

536
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:45,500
impairment loss, right? 
Like over time. 

537
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:49,300
Do you think like your you could
like reduce that that liquidity 

538
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:52,400
a lot since you? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

539
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,200
We're going to move it all into 
probably a balancer pool, and we

540
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,900
might lightweight it more 
towards East, like maybe 70/30 

541
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:02,300
or something. 
So that way we're like 

542
00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:04,400
maintaining some upside exposure
to eat. 

543
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,400
And yeah, like I think we're 
going to focus a lot more on 

544
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,700
what asset allocation do we want
and the kind of putting using 

545
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:17,200
bouncer as a tool to have that 
asset allocation and 

546
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,000
algorithmically rebalance. 
It versus like oh, let's just 

547
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,500
have liquidity everywhere. 
That was a very like V1 

548
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,000
mentality and I don't think 
that's scalable because like in 

549
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,200
permanent loss and these things 
like we'd rather leverage 

550
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,700
Solutions like balancer in 
Tokamak and whatever to Have the

551
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:35,400
right liquidity in the right 
places and make the PCB 

552
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,500
composition what we want. 
Like that's like far more 

553
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:40,500
important. 
I think than just like liquid in

554
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:43,700
a vacuum. 
Yeah, you mentioned that earlier

555
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,600
about like the PCB composition 
and like how like, you know, the

556
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,800
goal should be like increasing 
the PCB wouldn't be like Fair 

557
00:29:53,800 --> 00:30:00,500
almost to like in one way think 
of like tribe as this. 

558
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,900
Well, I like the PCB has this 
like fund that's being invested 

559
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:11,900
in and fit and like the FAE 
that's outstanding or bomb or 

560
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:17,000
like bonds and then the tribe is
like shares in this like fund. 

561
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:20,900
And so basically they like 
tribe, is this fund is like 

562
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,300
borrowing money from the 
bondholders will pay them back 

563
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:28,100
and then like X is captured by 
the shareholders. 

564
00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:32,300
That is certainly a mental model
that You could use for at least 

565
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:34,900
some of the mechanisms obviously
tribe is, you know, uh, 

566
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:37,800
governance token, but given what
it? 

567
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,400
What it controls. 
It's a lot more than that. 

568
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,800
And so, like, tribe is kind of a
direct. 

569
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,600
They are responsible for the 
future of the PCB. 

570
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,800
Like try Boulders vote on these 
assets. 

571
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:52,000
There's a buyback and Favi to 
that's algorithmically managed 

572
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,500
by the mechanisms of tribal 
Elders, are heavily incentivized

573
00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:57,900
to protect PCB. 
Grow PCV. 

574
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:00,600
Maintain, you know, and grow the
face. 

575
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,900
Apply. 
Because stay is like you said, 

576
00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:08,800
like like deck against PCV. 
So really it's leverage for 

577
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,900
tribe holders. 
Tribe holders can earn yield on 

578
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:15,100
the whole PCV and it can send 
feii into circulation earn yield

579
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:19,200
on that and they can like have a
productive, useful, stable coin 

580
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,400
that like makes defy better. 
So really it's like an awesome 

581
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:24,700
awesome mechanism. 
That's really healthy. 

582
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:28,200
If done right, you know, and 
it's very flexible, which means 

583
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,300
there's a lot of booby traps and
dangers which is why I like, you

584
00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:34,400
know, they Labs is hiring 
quantitative. 

585
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,900
Traders were like, we're really 
trying to like go deep on how to

586
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:41,500
make sure that we can keep PCV 
safe and make the protocol safe 

587
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:45,200
because it's powerful and it 
with great power comes 

588
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,100
responsibility. 
And like I think that these PCV 

589
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:52,200
backed Mega dollhouse like they 
and Olympus and Fracture gonna 

590
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,100
just absolutely take over in 
the, you know, in the next wave 

591
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:59,000
of D5. 
So that's pretty much the thesis

592
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,200
there. 
And I'm curious. 

593
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,700
If you can talk about like my 
favorite, like potential, use 

594
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:10,800
case for face, like to solve the
problem where like all these CDP

595
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,500
collateral collateralized, that 
position stable Queens, like 

596
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:19,400
die. 
Like they need a little PSM 

597
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,300
which is like this thing where 
you like can redeem you can 

598
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:27,100
redeem die for like $1, but of 
something in right now is you 

599
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:29,800
SEC but they might favorite 
potential use. 

600
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:35,300
This is instead of using USD. 
See you could use like you could

601
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:39,200
use Faye instead because phase 
directly redeemable for a dollar

602
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,600
or something. 
So that I think yeah, that's my 

603
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,500
first use case potential. 
Maybe if you can talk about 

604
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,900
that. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

605
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:54,700
So they really like the vision 
for Fei is to be decentralized. 

606
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:56,400
You SEC. 
That's what it is. 

607
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,900
It's like only decentralize 
Assets in reserves which are 

608
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,200
obviously volatile. 
So that means that we have to 

609
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,500
have very sophisticated 
portfolio management. 

610
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:07,200
And the problem is that there's 
not a lot of liquidity for 

611
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,600
hedging opportunities like 
assets that can be stable 

612
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,100
relative to relative to the 
dollar like you can't poke. 

613
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,700
Like, write a bunch of put 
options on E, you know, on chain

614
00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:22,600
right now, you can. 
But there's no liquidity for 

615
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,900
that. 
So we have to resort to other 

616
00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:29,700
mechanisms right now. 
Phase like semi dependent on 

617
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:31,700
other stable coins. 
And that's on purpose. 

618
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:36,400
We have LAUSD Diane dry in the 
PCB right now. 

619
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,300
We're looking at other options 
as well. 

620
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,800
So if we can get to a point 
where the market is mature 

621
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,900
enough, that we can basically 
hedge portfolio. 

622
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:50,200
Nobody and continue to like earn
reliable yield. 

623
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Then they becomes an 
extraordinarily compelling PSM 

624
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,400
asset. 
It's basically the on chain USD 

625
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,500
see that's been the vision. 
It's like if you can buy it for 

626
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:03,300
a Dollar, sell it for a dollar 
at all times. 

627
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:06,100
It's a dollar and then we can 
truly break away from our 

628
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:09,699
dependence on usec as an 
ecosystem and I want PHA to play

629
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:13,300
a huge part in that. 
And so that's that's really like

630
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,100
I would say we have like to 
North Stars One. 

631
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,500
It is like being the 
decentralized u.s. 

632
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:23,300
DC and to is being a home for 
douse like a place for douse to 

633
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:26,400
have a ton of financial 
services, you know, the merge 

634
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,800
has a lot to do with that. 
We're building some really sick 

635
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,699
products for next year. 
One city to is shipped. 

636
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,800
It's going to be like heavily 
focused on on doubts. 

637
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,500
And yeah, those are the two big 
use cases. 

638
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:38,900
So I think you hit it on the 
nose. 

639
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:42,600
We actually talked to Danielle a
and MIM is considering pha-4. 

640
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,400
It's PSM for form M. 
Which I Would be really sick and

641
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,699
kind of just validates this 
narrative, which all about, and 

642
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:54,600
is like, one of our main goals. 
So it's pretty exciting to see 

643
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,600
the project get to that stage. 
It's basically like two sides. 

644
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,300
So, is that a right way to think
about it? 

645
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:05,000
Is that you do you need like 
the, you need like the customer,

646
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,800
right? 
The, the person that like once 

647
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,400
face. 
So because of that, there's 

648
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,300
Assets in the, in the PC because
without people holding Fay, you 

649
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:13,500
know, you won't have assets, 
right? 

650
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:17,400
So it's like someone like me and
would be like a holder of a and 

651
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:20,700
then like a kind of like a 
depositor in the in the Fade 

652
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:23,100
Out. 
Yeah, exactly. 

653
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:26,600
You have like the the people on 
the other side, the other side 

654
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,000
of the That was the people. 
I like want to like that can 

655
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,900
benefit from the, the PCV, which
is like that was right, like 

656
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:37,700
people that that need like lping
people that need like a just 

657
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:39,900
services in general, that 
require Capital. 

658
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,000
But without the depositors, you 
can have anything because you 

659
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,500
don't want to have money in 
there, right? 

660
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,300
Yeah, so basically we're 
building a two-sided market 

661
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:51,200
place right where you want 
people to hold Faith because 

662
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,500
it's the most decentralized and 
scalable stable Quine or at 

663
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:56,900
least one of them. 
Right? 

664
00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:02,000
And so MIM is exactly like a 
perfect girl, you know spell I 

665
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,000
guess so that protocol is like a
perfect candidate for this and 

666
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,700
that's what I said by going hard
on douse we want to make use 

667
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:12,000
cases for douse to hold Faye. 
That's are like that's how we 

668
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,400
build the demand side and then 
this the, you know, The supply 

669
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,300
side is easy or rather like the 
demand to hold Fay, right? 

670
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:21,700
The like to make more supply of 
you. 

671
00:36:21,707 --> 00:36:23,500
Just meant it. 
You know, we meant they into 

672
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:25,300
fuse pools. 
We meant a and Ave. 

673
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:28,100
We meant Fay like all over the 
place that's easy. 

674
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,400
As long as you're careful about 
your collateralization ratio and

675
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,100
making sure that like all the 
mechanisms are sound. 

676
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,300
So yeah, it's really like 
building that demand side 

677
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,800
through the house and through 
the narrative that like they is 

678
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,800
on chain USD. 
See, that's the real like 

679
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,500
vision. 
And I think phase Is very well 

680
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:50,800
positioned for like, you know, 
you know, the next, the next 

681
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,400
phase, we're trying to stay on 
the edge of defy. 

682
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,400
We want to keep innovating where
we're partnering with very 

683
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,000
Innovative team. 
Staying on the edge staying 

684
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,900
Innovative staying competitive. 
That's always been the vision 

685
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:05,100
like a very like execution 
Innovation focused. 

686
00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:08,500
Ow. 
He and another one. 

687
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,400
What's the, what's the like a 
breakdown? 

688
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,300
Because you didn't, you do need 
to think eventually. 

689
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:17,700
Like what do I actually want to 
hold in the in the treasury 

690
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:19,300
right in the PCV? 
Right? 

691
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:22,800
What's the, what do you think? 
Like, I imagine like it's not 

692
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,300
you as did. 
Alright, but what do you think? 

693
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:28,900
Like what should be like a right
breakdown for like was you're 

694
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:33,100
holding in general? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

695
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:37,700
So this is entirely dependent on
the collateralization ratio 

696
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,700
actually think the current asset
allocation is approximately 

697
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:44,300
perfect, which is, you know, 
it's good. 

698
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:48,200
Right? 
Like we have 220 50 million in 

699
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,400
stable coins. 
And that's a mix of die, Ryan 

700
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,500
LAUSD, and I consider those to 
be like the three most liquid 

701
00:37:57,500 --> 00:38:01,100
and decentralized candidates, 
you know, like dies. 

702
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,700
Really like weird and it's 
censorship resistant but there's

703
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,300
some questions about its 
collateral composition value, 

704
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:07,500
whiskey. 
And rye are, there's no 

705
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:10,200
question. 
It's like totally backed by E 

706
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:14,500
using CDP style mechanisms 
enough, windy to feel 

707
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:18,100
comfortable holding them in 
size, but definitely not to be 

708
00:38:18,100 --> 00:38:22,100
100% dependent on them. 
So it's this like as much of 

709
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:24,500
kind of those type of stable 
assets as we can get 

710
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:27,900
comfortably. 
How did you acquire this table? 

711
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:30,900
Queen PC, because I remember it 
started off with Easter PCP. 

712
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,500
Yeah, so the like I guess to 
wrap up that last thread like 

713
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,500
and then the rest we want to 
hold like a ton of eat and then 

714
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:42,200
go to amounts of other like 
fully decentralized baskets. 

715
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:46,300
We love like kind of the index 
Co-op product Suite, like you 

716
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:50,200
have some DPI, maybe some data 
may be some metaverse index. 

717
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,800
Those are not in the PCB at the 
moment because we're kind of 

718
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,600
waiting for Favi to what's the 
percentage right now between eat

719
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,000
between stable coin versus non. 
Yeah, so there's two different 

720
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,300
numbers that are important. 
Here one is the raw, like asset 

721
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:06,600
allocation. 
It's about 25% Stables. 

722
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:09,800
But then if you talk about it, 
in terms of collateralization, 

723
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,400
we're over 70% back by Stables. 
So each would have to really 

724
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,700
really eat shit for the protocol
to be in danger. 

725
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,500
So it's awesome because we're 
free rolling a ton of eith right

726
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,900
now and that's a really good 
place to be in. 

727
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,200
So we're pretty much like short.
Up for a bear. 

728
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,700
We're like fake. 
Like phase going? 

729
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:32,800
Nowhere, basically. 
And that's the goal. 

730
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:37,000
So, so to answer your question, 
how we got these Stables. 

731
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,300
We got the Diane drive-through 
bonding curves, where we would 

732
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,300
like buy them at a small 
discount and we just like 

733
00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:46,200
arbitrageurs kind of fill up our
buffer. 

734
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:49,800
And then what we realized was 
that that's kind of like a 

735
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:55,600
little bit of like it's not like
a totally sound mechanism, you 

736
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,000
know, because you're just giving
away like one or two percent. 

737
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,900
Red just to acquire the assets. 
So, what we started doing is we 

738
00:40:01,908 --> 00:40:04,300
started using liquidity 
bootstrapping pools to basically

739
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:09,100
auction pha-4 assets. 
And that's how we got a hundred 

740
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:12,300
million dollars worth of value. 
SD with only like, let like 

741
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:16,200
about 1% slippage, which is 
awesome, given that there wasn't

742
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,300
even that much l USD in 
circulation like that. 

743
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,000
You know, I mean there is but 
it's all in the stability pools.

744
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,500
So like the market just kind of 
took care of it for us, this 

745
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:27,800
huge by order that we place over
two weeks. 

746
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,400
So we started, we're going to 
use more like automated tools, 

747
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,000
like bouncer to do these like 
asset rebalancing and 

748
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,800
acquisition and stuff like that.
That's really cool. 

749
00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:43,200
I typically use of the lvp is ya
go. 

750
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,600
What if you are just sending a 
transaction on you to soften 

751
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,100
getting front Rod or something 
like that. 

752
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,200
So that's cool. 
Nowhere. 

753
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:52,300
Dude. 
If you're you got to move slowly

754
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:55,000
and carefully when you have that
many Assets in public. 

755
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,200
So all we're always thinking 
about how can we get front-run? 

756
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,200
How can we avoid that? 
How could we like, you know, 

757
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,300
make these these asset 
allocations in the open and it's

758
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:09,800
something that we're building a 
strong competency for Who makes 

759
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,600
these decisions, is it 
governance votes? 

760
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,300
Or is it owed as governance 
delegate to a more 

761
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:19,400
sophisticated? 
Treasury manager? 

762
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,700
Governance is totally controlled
by tribal Elders with the 

763
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:26,500
exception of the optimistic 
approval multisig, which is 

764
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:32,000
currently responsible for our 
liquidity Mining and it can 

765
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,900
allocate say to some extent. 
It can like do like, say 

766
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,400
liquidity as a service kind of 
stuff like Infuse pools, or with

767
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,000
our Ando, partnership, but asset
allocations are totally 

768
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,600
controlled by the. 
Now that may not always be the 

769
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,500
case in Favi to, we're going to 
have risk curves. 

770
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,300
But you're like an automated 
mechanism for rebalancing using 

771
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:57,000
bouncer. 
So it's kind of its kind of like

772
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,800
compound has an interest rate 
curve that tells you 

773
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,400
programmatically, what? 
The borrower interest rate is 

774
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,800
and what the supplier interest 
rate is, but instead of 

775
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,100
controlling interest rates, you 
control asset allocations, and 

776
00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:10,500
the input parameter is the 
collateralization ratio. 

777
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,200
So it's just a really cool like 
automated function. 

778
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:17,200
We're still doing a ton of 
analysis on how to like optimize

779
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,700
that before launching. 
It that'll come in like probably

780
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,300
March or April. 
Next year, we're also locked on 

781
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,700
bouncers timelines for releasing
that feature on their managed 

782
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:29,100
pools. 
But, but yeah, I wrote a really.

783
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,300
I like, I've thought so much 
about governance that I wrote an

784
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:34,200
article about it that I 
published last week. 

785
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,100
Maybe you could put it in the 
show notes or something, but 

786
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:40,200
it's about it's about governance
and like where I see defy 

787
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,800
governance going and I think 
that there's like three really 

788
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,200
critical aspects to any 
sufficiently complicated 

789
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,900
protocol. 
You want to have token 

790
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,200
governance, but you want it to 
be pretty light. 

791
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,600
Like, Government should only 
control really important 

792
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,700
decisions. 
Like, you know, do we inflate 

793
00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:58,500
the token Supply? 
Do we change Access Control? 

794
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:01,200
Do we update contracts? 
Like that should be like, you 

795
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,200
know, very big decisions should 
be managed by token holders and 

796
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,700
I think you can delegate a lot 
of decisions to like a committee

797
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,000
or like a group of like you 
specialized stakeholders. 

798
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,900
Most decisions in governance are
just on party lines. 

799
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,300
It's like everyone votes. 
Yes, and to me, that's a sign 

800
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:20,900
that we're over you. 
Lysing. 

801
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:24,100
Token governance, like soaking 
governance is an extremely heavy

802
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:25,900
handed process. 
And if everyone just going to 

803
00:43:25,908 --> 00:43:30,200
vote, Yes, on most things, then 
that's sub optimal use of of 

804
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,400
resources of gas of all these 
things of people's time and 

805
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,700
energy. 
So where I think we should go as

806
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:37,300
more towards optimistic 
approval. 

807
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,500
I first heard of this idea 
through the gyroscope, I think, 

808
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:45,300
their intestine or something 
right now, but it's basically - 

809
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:47,500
consent governance. 
It's not anything totally new 

810
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:50,500
but it's that like you appoint a
committee. 

811
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,200
That committee can make 
decisions but there's a time 

812
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,900
lock. 
And during the time lock, the 

813
00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:57,500
Dow can veto. 
That's so much easier because I 

814
00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:00,300
think people when people want 
decentralisation, they just want

815
00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:02,400
to say no when something's 
messed up, they don't want to be

816
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,500
involved in every decision and 
that's what I think. 

817
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:08,200
Like, for example, you know, if 
people are getting censored on 

818
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,000
Twitter and stuff like because 
Twitter centralized. 

819
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,800
Like the people should be able 
to vote and say, no, you can't 

820
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,800
censor that person, but they 
don't really care like what the 

821
00:44:16,808 --> 00:44:20,400
algorithm does day to day. 
And so that's mine. 

822
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,300
Model for decentralized 
governance is that the people 

823
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:24,500
want to just know what's 
happening? 

824
00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:26,500
They want transparency and they 
want to say no when they don't 

825
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:29,400
like something and I think we're
going to start leaning more and 

826
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,300
more on those type of 
mechanisms, especially after the

827
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:35,000
merge because tribe is going to 
very quickly become governing 

828
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,400
like a ton of stuff so we can't 
do token governance for 

829
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:39,800
everything. 
Yeah. 

830
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,100
It's almost like few turkey for 
governance where like if 

831
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:44,000
everyone can predict, how 
governs would vote. 

832
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,900
You probably don't need to 
actually run the governance 

833
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,800
system itself. 
Yeah, you see you turkeys few 

834
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,000
turkeys. 
I'm, I've been, I've been 

835
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,100
obsessed with you turkey since I
first read that Merkel paper, 

836
00:44:55,500 --> 00:44:59,800
but it just seems like so hard 
to program an objective function

837
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,900
and like defies moving so fast 
that we can't have decade's 

838
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:06,000
worth of data. 
But yeah, that like I can't wait

839
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,100
to see smarter people than me 
solve governance. 

840
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:10,300
Like I don't know, State layer 
is a layer, might do it. 

841
00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:14,100
You know, I'm whatever whatever 
he does next but State. 

842
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:15,500
Are you working on solving 
governance? 

843
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:20,400
Not right now, but I did like 
that article. 

844
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,200
I think optimistic governance. 
Yeah, that's that's pretty good.

845
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:29,100
Like you delegate to people and 
if like the governance holder is

846
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:31,300
still remaining control. 
They can still this of the 

847
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:34,500
council's or whatever but it was
in place think that's the right 

848
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:39,600
model. 
Yeah, I plan on posting 

849
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,100
something on the sushi Forum, 
trying to get them to use this 

850
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:44,700
model because I think like if 
they had optimistic governance, 

851
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,600
all this controversy would have 
just been like, oh, okay. 

852
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,200
No, the people voted. 
No, you know, instead of giving 

853
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,300
absolute control to the treasury
multisig. 

854
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:56,200
And I think the sushi team is 
like pretty on board. 

855
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,600
For this would be a big win for 
everyone. 

856
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,700
So one other question about the 
PCB you mentioned? 

857
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:06,400
So you mentioned balance are a 
bunch of times now, so you're 

858
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,200
not holding the piece, you're 
not holding the PCB in like a 

859
00:46:09,207 --> 00:46:12,600
balancer, a map. 
It's like you're holding it. 

860
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:15,600
How, how, how are you? 
How do you? 

861
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:17,600
What do you mean by using 
balancer for this? 

862
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:22,400
So, right now, Faye is basically
a patchwork of PCV deposits, 

863
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,800
which are just literally, like, 
wrappers around, like you'll 

864
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,800
generating assets, like compound
Ave fuse pools. 

865
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:32,000
Whatever. 
This is not a sustainable 

866
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,900
architecture and I'm wrapping up
the thread on the initial V to 

867
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,100
launch and the merge. 
And then I'm going to spend a 

868
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:42,600
lot of time re-architecting from
the ground up like a full stack 

869
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,100
kind of PCV system. 
That's like more elegant and 

870
00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:49,500
more streamlined and that's 
going to involve balancer very 

871
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,500
heavily. 
So what I'm imagining is 

872
00:46:52,500 --> 00:46:56,900
basically balancers kind of the 
top layer where everything is in

873
00:46:56,900 --> 00:46:59,600
a bouncer pool that decides the 
macro asset. 

874
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:02,000
Option of the portfolio. 
How much he's do? 

875
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,500
We have? 
How much DPI that we have? 

876
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:05,700
How much? 
Why do we have? 

877
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:08,900
How much l USC do we have? 
And this is controlled by the 

878
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:11,300
risk curves at the very top 
level, and it should be pretty 

879
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:13,500
light. 
It shouldn't move that much 

880
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:16,700
because if you move too fast, 
you're moving the whole market. 

881
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:19,400
And if you move the whole Market
algorithmically, you're going to

882
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,800
get destroyed by hedge funds and
Traders. 

883
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,500
And so we're doing a lot of 
analysis to make sure like, 

884
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,000
what's a safe mechanism for 
that? 

885
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,200
But that's Imagine the top layer
being and bouncer has a cool 

886
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,900
feature where the way that they 
solve the capital efficiency 

887
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,300
problem is not by concentrating 
liquidity, but by actually 

888
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:41,300
giving you access to all the 
liquidity outside of the, the 

889
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,700
price band that you're in. 
So you could take assets out of 

890
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:49,100
balancer and put it into like 
some other deposit. 

891
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:53,000
So what we're thinking is using 
the fuse yield aggregators or 

892
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,400
are yield aggregators, that are 
aggregating on top of use as 

893
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,700
like a big component of PCB. 
So baby, bouncer on top. 

894
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:03,000
Top and then he'll generation 
sort of abstractly using these 

895
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,200
aggregators. 
And then at the base layer, we 

896
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,100
be using to use poles that would
control kind of where pcbs 

897
00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:10,800
going. 
So it's kind of dislike full 

898
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,700
stack integration where you get 
lent you get swapping liquidity,

899
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:19,700
lending liquidity and yield 
aggregation kind of all all in 

900
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:23,900
in a hierarchy and that is a 
really nice architecture. 

901
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,600
I'm going to like do a whole 
ride up on it. 

902
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:29,800
Come up with a transition plan 
from our current. 

903
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:32,000
System. 
And that's going to be like a 

904
00:48:32,008 --> 00:48:34,200
big theme like early next year, 
probably. 

905
00:48:34,500 --> 00:48:39,200
So that's kind of the the alpha 
leak I guess for for where we're

906
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,800
going. 
After Fay be too. 

907
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:46,400
But when you're keeping your PCV
in the balancer pool, does that 

908
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,000
mean that like it's suffering 
the IL because I've always heard

909
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,700
my balance or try to pitch it as
like, hey, this is you can build

910
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:55,200
ETFs. 
Using balanced rails on isn't 

911
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,900
having it in a pool, like a 
terrible ETF because you're like

912
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:02,100
just, you know, whenever I'm 
asked it goes up, you're like 

913
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:05,700
selling that asset basically and
like, so here's the thing like 

914
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:11,200
when your Market making like the
goal is there like whether it's 

915
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,400
a goal or not. 
The idea of Market making is 

916
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,400
like, you're always selling the 
asset that is in demand. 

917
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,000
Like if someone wants it, you're
selling it to them and you're 

918
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,300
taking fees for that. 
That is like market-making is a 

919
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,600
a trade. 
It's a trade, that's long, 

920
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,100
volume and short volatility. 
So in permanent loss is like 

921
00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:30,000
that's a stupid name. 
Like it should just be called 

922
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,100
market-making like that's that's
the whole game. 

923
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,400
I guess. 
The question is, why are you 

924
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,400
market-making with your entire 
PCB? 

925
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,600
So so and then there's another 
question which is that market 

926
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,300
making an amm is Two things. 
It's it's actually a portfolio 

927
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:46,500
management tool. 
Like if you're an LP, you're 

928
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:48,400
making a specific trade on your 
portfolio. 

929
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,800
You want to be 50% exposed 
Ethan, 50% exposed to USD, if 

930
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,400
your Market making East Bay, and
maybe that's not what we want. 

931
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,300
But if we know what we want, we 
just plug it into balancer, 

932
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,200
bouncer decides the asset 
allocation, and, you know, 

933
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,600
instead of thinking of it as 
selling on the way up, think of 

934
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,700
it as rebalancing, like, your, 
your rebalancing to have the 

935
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:11,600
asset allocation that you want 
at all times. 

936
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:14,900
And you're actually getting paid
for that because people are 

937
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:18,100
swapping on your liquidity, 
getting you swipe fees to have 

938
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:19,800
the asset allocation that you 
want. 

939
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:23,400
Does that make sense? 
Yes, but I'm going to claim that

940
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,600
the balance or a mem is the 
opposite of what you want 

941
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,700
because like you mentioned, you 
know, 25% of your pulled for 

942
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:35,800
folios in stable coins right 
now, but set the it's 70% back 

943
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,500
with with stable coin, but the 
problem is as eat starch to 

944
00:50:40,500 --> 00:50:44,000
crash, you guys are to end up 
owning more and more eith which 

945
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,700
is crashing and less and less is
going to be back by stable 

946
00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:49,200
points. 
I would argue that you almost 

947
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,700
want the opposite with which by 
the way, this is something we're

948
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:56,100
working on at a smoke. 
Osmosis is you want a leveraged 

949
00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:58,500
amm, which actually lets you 
sell. 

950
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:01,600
He's on the way down rather than
by either of the way down. 

951
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,300
Yeah, that's literally what 
we're building for Favi to we're

952
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:08,900
building risk curves, on top of 
balancer, that change the 

953
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:11,600
weights of the portfolio, as the
collateralization ratio. 

954
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,300
It is so we can actually we're 
making an abstract 

955
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:17,700
generalization layer on top of 
balancer that lets us do exactly

956
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:20,000
what you're saying where we can 
sell on the way down, or bio on 

957
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,400
the way down, or do nothing on 
the way down. 

958
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:25,400
And that's totally dependent on 
the the inputs. 

959
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,200
Like, we're providing the 
function. 

960
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:32,100
And so like, yeah, like the 
answer is whatever we want we 

961
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:34,600
can do and we're doing a ton of 
upfront analysis. 

962
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,500
We have data scientist 
quantitative Traders, on the 

963
00:51:36,508 --> 00:51:38,300
team, who are doing this 
analysis. 

964
00:51:38,300 --> 00:51:41,600
So that when we put it in, we 
have like a pretty good 

965
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:42,500
understanding. 
Understanding of what's going to

966
00:51:42,508 --> 00:51:45,500
happen and then you know, it's a
very chaotic system. 

967
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:47,900
So if something happens, we 
didn't expect then we change the

968
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:52,600
mechanism, we change the Curve. 
Weren't you saying joy that like

969
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,400
you were thinking like you might
not necessarily like put the 

970
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,000
whole thing in the in the 
balancer pool, right? 

971
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,700
You might just pull like a hold 
some outside of it, right? 

972
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,000
Yeah. 
So the, the rollout and the 

973
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,400
architecture are still totally 
up in the air. 

974
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,800
I think that it's very wise to 
start out, like, we're going to 

975
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,600
start moving pools over to 
bouncer pretty soon. 

976
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Like the East Bay pool, on 
Eunice W, V2. 

977
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:20,500
There's no reason it should stay
there. 

978
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:24,300
Getting any incentives and you 
know, it's like it's a dumb 

979
00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:25,600
fool. 
So we're going to probably move 

980
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,100
that over to balancer. 
We're going to make a tribe pool

981
00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:32,100
on bouncer, probably. 
So we're just going to keep like

982
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,500
moving assets over to Bouncer. 
And then eventually I do imagine

983
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:41,600
that near 100% of PCB will be in
Bouncer and maybe it's not a 

984
00:52:41,607 --> 00:52:44,300
hundred. 
Maybe it's like 50, but we want 

985
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:46,900
to build an ecosystem. 
We want to build a stack that 

986
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,700
we're like, I believe in like 
concentrating your resources. 

987
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,700
Has both from an architectural 
perspective and from like an 

988
00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:56,300
alignment perspective, like we 
want to own a ton of value. 

989
00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:58,300
We want to be a part of the 
bouncer ecosystem. 

990
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,600
They want to pump tvl, their pom
volume there, same thing with 

991
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,100
the merge, like the Rari. 
Merge is like we want to put as 

992
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:07,200
much PCB and diffuse as 
possible, and into R re v as 

993
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,900
possible because like, we're 
going to become one protocol. 

994
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:13,600
So that's the, that's the idea. 
There is like, maybe not at 

995
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,300
once. 
Made for technical reasons and 

996
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:16,600
security reasons. 
We'll roll it out. 

997
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,000
But eventually, we're going to 
put as much as we can. 

998
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,700
There assuming that it We have 
the properties that we want of 

999
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:24,700
PCV. 
Like the end goal is to just 

1000
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:26,400
have the asset allocation. 
We wanted. 

1001
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,000
PCV at all times, and we're 
going to use balancers to tool 

1002
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:34,100
to get there. then you still 
have like some of it in like in 

1003
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:38,100
balancer, but like just like 
static, like just like, not 

1004
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:42,900
actively being like market May 
Market made with or That's 

1005
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:45,100
possible at that point. 
We might as well just keep it 

1006
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:49,000
outside of balancer. 
So it's really like that's what 

1007
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,400
I mean. 
Like maybe we don't want to put 

1008
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,400
our index in bouncer because we 
want to make sure we're not ever

1009
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,200
selling it because we want to 
maintain 1% of the fully diluted

1010
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,500
supply of index will just keep 
that outside of balancer and we 

1011
00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:01,000
could do that with any amount of
PCV. 

1012
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,400
Like, maybe we just like, always
want to have 100,000 death, no 

1013
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,300
matter what. 
And we're just going to keep 

1014
00:54:06,300 --> 00:54:09,300
that outside of balancer forever
and put it in steak teeth and 

1015
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:12,200
just leave it there. 
Like, you know, we give yourself

1016
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:17,700
like, Definitely like, I don't 
believe in doing anything 

1017
00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:19,600
arbitrarily, like, we should 
have put it on down, sir. 

1018
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,300
Just cuz we should do it because
we have a very specific goal. 

1019
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,200
So, having a lot of smart people
in the community like you and, 

1020
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,100
you know, all the various 
stakeholders kind of pitching in

1021
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:31,100
and deciding like what we want 
to make this thing. 

1022
00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:34,300
That is what I'm going to 
support and provide Technical 

1023
00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:37,800
Resources. 
For So we said okay. 

1024
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,000
We talked a lot about what 
happens in like the over over 

1025
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,500
clockwise regime like, you know,
ideally everything is 141 

1026
00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:46,700
redeemable for something. 
In the PCB. 

1027
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:50,800
What happens when the PCB gets 
completely if the piece of each 

1028
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,900
has completely drained and you 
know because we offered this 

1029
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:56,200
one-to-one, redeem building. 
Now, that means that there's 

1030
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,100
outstanding Faye what happens 
next. 

1031
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,300
You're saying we're under 
collateralized in this scenario 

1032
00:55:02,300 --> 00:55:06,800
or what? 
Yes, I yeah, yeah what happens 

1033
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,400
if what happens if we're under 
collateralized but you know, you

1034
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,100
still keep and keep offering 12 
one would even bility but then 

1035
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:18,900
we're all out of and we get and 
the all the PCB gets wiped out. 

1036
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:20,800
Yeah, I mean, that's a textbook 
Bank Run. 

1037
00:55:21,100 --> 00:55:23,800
So that's the V2 is designed to 
avoid that. 

1038
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,400
We have two mechanisms to avoid.
That one is if we go under the 

1039
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,200
target collateralization ratio, 
we backstop with tribe. 

1040
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,000
And that's the only scenario 
where tribe is used to absorb 

1041
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,500
volatility on the downside. 
Is, if we go under the 

1042
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:39,100
collateralization ratio, the 
targets, going to be 100%. 

1043
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,200
There's technical reasons why it
shouldn't be over a hundred 

1044
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,300
percent and we can actually 
lower it. 

1045
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:51,200
We can lower it to like 90, or 
maybe even a tea, but you want 

1046
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,000
to keep that number pretty high.
Because like, you don't want 

1047
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,200
anyone to be scared. 
Like, if people are like, oh, if

1048
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,100
they is 90% back, that's gonna 
be fine in pretty much all 

1049
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:02,700
market conditions. 
So, as long as there's this, 

1050
00:56:02,700 --> 00:56:06,600
like, guarantee from the Called 
to backstop with its own Equity.

1051
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,500
When shit hits the fan that's 
like a really good way for 

1052
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:11,900
people to kind of like feel 
comfortable. 

1053
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,100
We also have a rate limit on how
much tribe can be inflated at a 

1054
00:56:15,107 --> 00:56:17,300
given time. 
So that tribe holders are not 

1055
00:56:17,300 --> 00:56:20,500
freaking out and like dumping to
front run any inflation. 

1056
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:24,800
And then like I said, the risk 
curves are going to be selling 

1057
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,700
into Stables basically as PCB 
goes down. 

1058
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:31,600
So there's all these mechanisms 
to kind of stop us from getting 

1059
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,500
under collateralized. 
But if we do, Tribe, is there as

1060
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:39,400
a backstop and if we get so 
under collateralized like black 

1061
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,700
Thursday, like, you know. 
I guess in an extreme scenario 

1062
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:48,100
fade zeros out. 
That's like, you know, we're 

1063
00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:50,300
doing everything in our power to
make that not happen. 

1064
00:56:50,300 --> 00:56:52,600
And I'm extremely confident in 
the mechanisms. 

1065
00:56:52,900 --> 00:56:55,400
But like, if things had gone 
much worse on black, Thursday 

1066
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:56,900
Maker, Now wouldn't be here 
right now. 

1067
00:56:57,300 --> 00:57:00,900
So that's kind of the, yeah. 
It was black black Thursday or 

1068
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:02,600
Monday. 
I don't know, whatever, whatever

1069
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,900
happened in, March of 2020, if 
it had gone, much worse maker 

1070
00:57:05,900 --> 00:57:08,800
doubt would be toast. 
And so, like, that's the risk, 

1071
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,600
and that's what we're building 
to protect against. 

1072
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,400
But yeah, like, you know, Defy, 
you can't have an airtight 

1073
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,300
mechanism when you're doing 
something that's complicated. 

1074
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:20,400
So it's all about like launching
incentives, asset reallocation 

1075
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,200
mechanisms to protect against 
the backstop event. 

1076
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,600
That makes sense. 
One funny thing. 

1077
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,300
I was thinking about before, 
well, prepping for the show was 

1078
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,600
if you actually allowed redeem 
ability or mint ability of 

1079
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:38,400
tribe. 
First right before, it's at the 

1080
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,300
finalization ratio. 
It kind of becomes like Tara but

1081
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:46,100
with a bat with like eat 
backstop, so, you know, the 

1082
00:57:46,100 --> 00:57:48,100
whole thing with like Tara is 
like, how does it work? 

1083
00:57:48,100 --> 00:57:51,600
Well, the tfl balance sheet is 
back stopping it, but here it's 

1084
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,500
like, hey, there's this on chain
balance sheet, which it you 

1085
00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:58,200
create Kara. 
But this on chain balance sheet 

1086
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,700
is what's backstopping. 
The protocol just kind of cool 

1087
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:04,800
here is the difference between 
Faye and Tara and I love this 

1088
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,500
analogy. 
I Bike riding. 

1089
00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:09,000
It makes a lot of sense to me. 
So like let me know if it 

1090
00:58:09,008 --> 00:58:13,100
doesn't make sense. 
But basically Luna is absorbing 

1091
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:17,300
volatility and UST, demand 
directly when Luna when you st, 

1092
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:20,100
goes over a dollar Luna gets 
botton burned. 

1093
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:23,300
When USD goes under a dollar, 
Luna gets minted and inflated, 

1094
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,800
they backs the peg with hard 
assets. 

1095
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,800
If other stable clients like 
Peezy B, so the peg is 

1096
00:58:31,808 --> 00:58:35,400
completely managed by PCV and 
tribe is absorbing. 

1097
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,500
Leti in the PCV, so it's kind of
like Luna with an extra step 

1098
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:44,800
where it's managing volatility 
in the asset not in demand for 

1099
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:50,600
the stable coin. 
Yeah, I think like, for me, I 

1100
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,900
remember like, I was always very
skeptical of Tara and I guess I 

1101
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:58,800
just never understood it until I
saw understood today and I think

1102
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,800
faith in me was like this, like 
stepping stone where I like at 

1103
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,000
this. 
I understood the game theory of 

1104
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,700
Kara. 
I'm not, it's still something 

1105
00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:11,400
that's a little bit, you know, 
will it blow up in a good way or

1106
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,100
a bad way? 
I don't know. 

1107
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:14,900
We'll see. 
But I think that definitely 

1108
00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:17,600
helped me understand. 
And Care are much better. 

1109
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,300
Yeah, and then the reason why 
we're obsessed with being fully 

1110
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:25,300
collateralized is because we're 
nervous about mechanisms. 

1111
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:28,700
Like they're alike. 
We've seen Titan zero out after 

1112
00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:31,100
two billion dollars Supply and 
like there's a bunch of things 

1113
00:59:31,100 --> 00:59:34,600
that went wrong there, but the 
market has been in our favor for

1114
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:37,900
a year and a half. 
Now that's not going to, it's 

1115
00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:39,300
not going to be like that 
forever. 

1116
00:59:39,500 --> 00:59:44,200
So, you know, we want to have a 
mechanism that can weather, the 

1117
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,800
storm and like a really gnarly 
storm because I think, you know,

1118
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,800
I remember Marsh 2020. 
I remember, you know, 2018 like 

1119
00:59:54,300 --> 00:59:57,200
shit is not always very pretty. 
It's like it's brutal sometimes,

1120
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:01,400
you know. 
I was like a hypothetical, like 

1121
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,600
scenario. 
Like the only way I could see 

1122
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,500
like Faye become like close to 
Luna would be like, if a would 

1123
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:11,500
swallow up, like so much eat 
that like it would be like 

1124
01:00:11,500 --> 01:00:16,300
really like, like ingrain like 
with its fate self. 

1125
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:19,400
Right? 
Like then that would be closer 

1126
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,200
to the not, right? 
Because basically there's a 

1127
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,000
point where face selling could 
affect the market, right? 

1128
01:00:26,100 --> 01:00:28,900
Yeah, I mean we are at that 
point. 

1129
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,800
It's just like not it's not like
if ether would like get 

1130
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,300
destroyed if we unloaded 
everything but the East price 

1131
01:00:36,300 --> 01:00:40,300
went up, 10% during say Genesis 
and the gas price went up like 

1132
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:43,200
200%. 
I'm pretty sure that like a 

1133
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,100
sucking up, you know, almost a 
full percent of the East Supply 

1134
01:00:47,100 --> 01:00:51,500
was like, definitely moved the 
price and we still have like, 

1135
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:53,500
you know a quarter of a percent 
of the eat Supply. 

1136
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:56,800
So we're here. 
Huge actor, we're probably one 

1137
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:01,500
of the largest teeth holders as 
an entity and the entire 

1138
01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:05,900
ecosystem. 
This is I'm just having this 

1139
01:01:05,900 --> 01:01:09,000
crazy idea to now like right now
while we're talking so this 

1140
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,100
might make zero sense. 
But what I mean, what are those?

1141
01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:18,400
My food is State earlier was 
like Hey, what if like Favi one 

1142
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,400
idea what like? 
But you have at the ready 

1143
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,600
Mobility. 
Let's say you had something more

1144
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,800
like Tara. 
We're like you meant in Burn 

1145
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:32,400
tribe for USD for Sheriff a but 
then you use your PCB to instead

1146
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,100
of Market making on. 
They like the one was doing you 

1147
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:40,900
instead, use the market make on 
eith tribe instead and you 

1148
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:47,300
basically have like, hey, here's
this like exit liquidity for for

1149
01:01:48,300 --> 01:01:51,200
tribe out and it's like that 
feels very interesting. 

1150
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,100
But then when I just thought 
about just now with like I would

1151
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:56,000
like those like this a way of 
like using this with like an 

1152
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:01,800
olympic-style mechanism to keep 
like increasing the PCB. 

1153
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,900
And then like I would never 
Olympus could Could issue a 

1154
01:02:05,908 --> 01:02:12,800
stable coin with like they're 
actually, you know, actually 

1155
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,600
earlier on the thing you were 
you're offering up your views on

1156
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,700
Olympus. 
Maybe maybe we can do that and 

1157
01:02:17,700 --> 01:02:19,000
we can talk about that a little 
bit. 

1158
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,200
So remember back when like they 
was when it was first like 

1159
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:25,100
launching and stuff. 
I remember at the time like 

1160
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:28,800
everyone was talking like the 
two things, everyone's like oh 

1161
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,400
to Big stable coins coming out 
right now Fay. 

1162
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,300
And ohm and cleome does not seem
like a stable core. 

1163
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:36,000
Right now. 
So what do you think? 

1164
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,100
It's like about? 
What your thoughts on Olympus? 

1165
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,400
Yeah. 
So the, the spiritual core of 

1166
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,600
both Protocols are identical. 
It's a PCV back asset period, 

1167
01:02:46,700 --> 01:02:49,400
like Faye is a PCV back USD 
stable coin. 

1168
01:02:49,700 --> 01:02:53,200
Ohm is a PCV. 
Backed futuristic, Reserve 

1169
01:02:53,500 --> 01:02:59,100
currency that has a floor price.
And so in that respect in that 

1170
01:02:59,100 --> 01:03:01,400
regard, I think Olympus is one 
of the coolest things ever 

1171
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,200
because I think Faye is one of 
the coolest things I've ever and

1172
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,700
they're very similar. 
The way that Olympus is 

1173
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:08,800
different is that they use 
staking and bonding to kind of 

1174
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,000
growth hack. 
This like PCV or protocol on 

1175
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,900
liquidity. 
It's super sick. 

1176
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,600
Like I don't have no idea what's
going to happen. 

1177
01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:22,000
I like I don't, I don't have any
own bags, but I really like the 

1178
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,100
team. 
I like, you know, I like the 

1179
01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:27,000
community a lot. 
I'm always buy, always hedged 

1180
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,500
when I talk about it. 
Like, it's a dangerous 

1181
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:31,400
mechanism. 
I think even the leadership kind

1182
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,700
of knows that it's like, not to 
be trifled with. 

1183
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:39,900
So, The memes and shit are fun. 
But, you know, it's trading 8 or

1184
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:43,400
10 x over its Reserve value at 
any given time and that could 0,

1185
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,500
not 0. 
But that could, you know, that 

1186
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:50,300
could do a 5x dip at any point 
and everyone's kind of aware of 

1187
01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:52,400
that. 
And but like they have such a 

1188
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,800
strong community in the markets 
been in their favor like they're

1189
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,300
acquiring so many assets. 
Like Olympus is not going 

1190
01:03:58,300 --> 01:04:01,600
anywhere and I think that's the 
long-term play is like even when

1191
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,800
shit hits the fan. 
They just pivot to being more 

1192
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,100
like a stable. 
A coin and less like a like a 

1193
01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:11,400
growth machine, you know, I 
yeah, I've I like a very 

1194
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,000
nuanced. 
Like I'm following Olympus very 

1195
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,600
closely. 
I'm you know, like I think that 

1196
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,600
they're really executing pretty 
well and that's my that's my 

1197
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:26,900
like broad take on on Olympus. 
It's funny because like one of 

1198
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:31,000
the because I have like a lot of
like a commis friends, right? 

1199
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,700
And like one of the ways I like 
cannot like explain them PHA or 

1200
01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:37,400
like peel them on. 
Faye was like imagine if all 

1201
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,600
inputs was to like issue like an
acid like a like a stable coin 

1202
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,200
that's like fully backed by 
their their PCV. 

1203
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:45,200
Right? 
Because they have like hundreds 

1204
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,700
of millions like they could do 
that like tomorrow. 

1205
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:49,900
They could issue like a well 
maybe not tomorrow, but you 

1206
01:04:49,900 --> 01:04:54,100
know, like issue a stable point 
is they're essentially like If a

1207
01:04:54,100 --> 01:04:57,600
and just sell, when it's over 
one dollar, and, and by bag when

1208
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,800
it's under $1, right, so like 
that's kind of how, like, 

1209
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,500
sometimes I explained to fade 
because like tribe would a gnome

1210
01:05:04,500 --> 01:05:06,600
would become essentially like 
try because it would be just 

1211
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:10,300
like the governance token and 
like they get like the upside on

1212
01:05:10,300 --> 01:05:14,700
the PCV growing in everything. 
That's kind of like one way 

1213
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,500
dude. 
That would be a crazy time line.

1214
01:05:18,100 --> 01:05:21,000
If Olympus just like launches a 
stable coin and turns them into 

1215
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,600
a governance token. 
That would be an absolute. 

1216
01:05:23,900 --> 01:05:26,300
Crazy timeline. 
Yes, that's exactly what I was 

1217
01:05:26,300 --> 01:05:28,800
just thinking. 
It seems that the mechanisms are

1218
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,800
very similar. 
But what own did was it, 

1219
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,900
packaged tribe? 
And what in, Faye is two 

1220
01:05:35,900 --> 01:05:39,100
separate tokens one, which is 
stable, and one, which is this 

1221
01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:42,200
like accruing value Asset. 
Because it's like a portion of 

1222
01:05:42,207 --> 01:05:45,700
the deck to the PCV. 
It catches up into 12 asset, but

1223
01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:48,000
it would be. 
But I feel like, oh, maybe could

1224
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,800
separate these out where, like, 
you know, they have this like 

1225
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,200
lower value. 
That's backing the oh, umm, what

1226
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,000
is clearly under collateralized 
are? 

1227
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,800
They could issue a stable coin 
based off the floor value and 

1228
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,600
then have this other thing 
become this like PCV traffic 

1229
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:05,000
accident. 
It seems like that's a little 

1230
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,600
bit. 
What's going on here? 

1231
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,500
Oh my God, that's so sick. 
I don't think they want to do 

1232
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:13,200
that. 
I thought to like I've suggested

1233
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,900
like how could you do this? 
Like to some friends like OG 

1234
01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:19,100
omi's and they were like, yeah, 
that's not that's not like that 

1235
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:20,800
the vision, right? 
Because they want the acid 

1236
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,500
itself to become the reserve 
currency, but I think it's a 

1237
01:06:24,508 --> 01:06:25,700
cool. 
It would be cool. 

1238
01:06:25,700 --> 01:06:27,300
Right? 
And they could they could make 

1239
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:28,700
it. 
So that's not it's not like Faye

1240
01:06:28,700 --> 01:06:31,700
like exactly $1. 
It could be more of a like a 

1241
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:35,700
floating one, right? 
Like a let's say it's like they 

1242
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:39,300
don't let it go past 1.05, but 
they might you know, that type 

1243
01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:43,800
of thing. 
Yeah, I mean I think like they 

1244
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:45,800
should keep it as just home 
right? 

1245
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,500
Like they should stick to what 
they're good at. 

1246
01:06:48,500 --> 01:06:51,000
That's been the narrative that's
been the vision then like if 

1247
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,900
they can execute it. 
It's fucking huge and like, you 

1248
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:59,700
know, I definitely think You 
know, it's worth it's worth 

1249
01:06:59,700 --> 01:07:01,700
giving that it's full shot. 
Right? 

1250
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:06,200
So but if they want to launch a 
stable and call me, I could I 

1251
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:10,600
could give you some tips. 
What is the PCB right now? 

1252
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,300
That the dollar value 
approximately? 

1253
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:16,000
Yeah Eastman tanking. 
So my guess is it's around a 

1254
01:07:16,008 --> 01:07:18,700
billion. 
It was like one point to a week 

1255
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:20,300
or two ago. 
Yeah. 

1256
01:07:20,300 --> 01:07:22,400
It's almost exactly a billion as
of right now. 

1257
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:28,600
Okay, so there's a so there's 
about 1.2 billion dollars of PCV

1258
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:34,500
and about 750 million dollars of
outstanding Bay, right? 

1259
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,900
Yeah, but half of that, say it's
700 and half of it belongs to 

1260
01:07:38,900 --> 01:07:41,200
the protocol. 
So in terms of debt, there's 

1261
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:46,600
like 350 million. 
Okay, so then maybe let's talk a

1262
01:07:46,607 --> 01:07:49,600
little bit about this are very 
merger. 

1263
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:54,400
So you know what, maybe the 
before we go into the merger 

1264
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,500
like, you know, what was this 
like relationship and like what 

1265
01:07:58,500 --> 01:08:02,700
was the interaction between the 
PHA protocol and the Ferrari 

1266
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:06,900
protocol before any talks of 
merger even popped up. 

1267
01:08:08,100 --> 01:08:12,800
Yeah, I mean, it's really a 
perfect fit like say is a you 

1268
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:16,800
know phase a stable coin looking
for a product and Rari is a 

1269
01:08:16,808 --> 01:08:18,500
product looking for a stable 
Point. 

1270
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:22,000
Like they have a leveraged 
Market but you need liquidity as

1271
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,600
particularly in stable points 
to, you know, satisfy the 

1272
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,300
demands of people who want 
Capital efficiency against their

1273
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:31,100
tokens. 
And so we basically put feii 

1274
01:08:31,100 --> 01:08:34,000
into every fuse pool. 
We could, we have say in like, 

1275
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,700
you know, like nine of the top 
ten two spools are. 

1276
01:08:37,899 --> 01:08:41,300
Thing like that, maybe eight or 
nine of the top ten and, you 

1277
01:08:41,308 --> 01:08:44,300
know, a ton of pools like all 
the top walls have faded because

1278
01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:47,399
we put liquidity in them. 
And then that attracts Capital 

1279
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:51,200
also very strong relationship on
the mechanism level. 

1280
01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:54,700
Also, the team's just like 
really gel very, very similar 

1281
01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:59,800
Vision execution-style, very 
aggressive Innovative, like 

1282
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,200
wanting to be on The Fringe and 
like, you know, be the ones kind

1283
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,300
of leading the charge, like 
that's always been like jayde's 

1284
01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:09,000
Vision their team is. 
Phenomenal and great to work 

1285
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,899
with. 
So when when J first like 

1286
01:09:12,899 --> 01:09:14,800
floated, the idea by me. 
It's funny because I had 

1287
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,000
actually been thinking about it 
for a while. 

1288
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,000
I thought like, man, what if we 
like merge with Rari, that'd be 

1289
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:20,899
so cool. 
And then Jay was like, dude, 

1290
01:09:21,100 --> 01:09:24,700
what if we merge protocols to me
and it just felt right when he 

1291
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:27,500
said it, but we spent a lot of 
time kind of syncing up with the

1292
01:09:27,500 --> 01:09:29,500
team's getting everyone on 
board. 

1293
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:32,000
You know, it's a big big 
decision. 

1294
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:36,899
It's like getting married. 
And so that's kind of how we 

1295
01:09:36,899 --> 01:09:39,800
like got here and And once the 
teams were all totally on board.

1296
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,200
We took it to the community. 
No one else knew about it. 

1297
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:43,700
We didn't tell any of our 
investors or anything. 

1298
01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:46,399
It was literally just like from 
the core teams and then we took 

1299
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:50,700
it to the community, got a ton 
of attention, had some really 

1300
01:09:50,700 --> 01:09:52,899
great conversations. 
It's honestly been the coolest 

1301
01:09:52,899 --> 01:09:54,400
example of decentralized 
governance. 

1302
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,300
I've ever been a part of because
you have two different 

1303
01:09:57,300 --> 01:10:00,500
communities, trying to negotiate
all these different, narratives,

1304
01:10:00,500 --> 01:10:03,400
all these different 
stakeholders, really, really 

1305
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,200
like people showing up to like 
contribute value and like, you 

1306
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:12,100
know, fight for their you know, 
their protocol very awesome, 

1307
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:17,700
kind of process and cool to you 
know, cool to be a part of Was 

1308
01:10:17,700 --> 01:10:22,500
there a vocal minority? 
Or that was like, very against 

1309
01:10:22,500 --> 01:10:24,800
the merger? 
Yeah. 

1310
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,900
I mean, I think calling it a 
vocal minority might even be 

1311
01:10:27,900 --> 01:10:34,000
like, you know, belittling like 
the sentiment, like, there were 

1312
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,200
people who were very upset on 
both sides. 

1313
01:10:36,300 --> 01:10:38,100
I have no idea what, like, on 
the tribe side. 

1314
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:40,300
It wasn't even on minority. 
It was like all the biggest 

1315
01:10:40,300 --> 01:10:42,300
tribal Elders were like, dude. 
What are you doing? 

1316
01:10:42,700 --> 01:10:47,200
And, you know, there was a lot 
of like negotiation and we A 

1317
01:10:47,208 --> 01:10:50,900
proposal of time to really make 
it work for like all the key 

1318
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:52,700
stakeholders. 
And as much of the community as 

1319
01:10:52,700 --> 01:10:55,800
we could and Jay and I have been
like really emphasizing the 

1320
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:57,300
vision of what we can do 
together. 

1321
01:10:57,400 --> 01:10:59,200
And oh my God, is it going to be
sick? 

1322
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,900
Like get ready? 
And so, yeah, like there's a ton

1323
01:11:03,900 --> 01:11:06,800
of detractors when we first 
proposed most of that was 

1324
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,600
because people just it was out 
of nowhere. 

1325
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,500
Like no one was expecting this 
because it only makes sense 

1326
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:14,300
after you spend like some time, 
like, thinking about it and 

1327
01:11:14,300 --> 01:11:18,200
looking at where defies going 
and So we think that this is 

1328
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:20,800
like, a very forward move that, 
you know, already. 

1329
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,600
We're seeing like the spell 
ecosystem. 

1330
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,600
Like they're consolidating at 
on, I think you're trying to 

1331
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,400
merge with sushi right now. 
Like we're going to see 

1332
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,800
consolidation all across the 
defy stack. 

1333
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,600
And so it's like choose your 
friends and I know who my 

1334
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:35,900
friends are and I want to merge 
with these guys and like, you 

1335
01:11:35,900 --> 01:11:38,300
know, I'm trying to sell this 
Vision to people who aren't into

1336
01:11:38,300 --> 01:11:40,300
it. 
But ultimately, we're letting 

1337
01:11:40,300 --> 01:11:42,600
people who aren't into it kind 
of exit like tribe holders, get 

1338
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,000
the rage quit. 
Rtt. 

1339
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,000
Holders are going to swap into 
an asset. 

1340
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,700
That's 10 times more. 
So everyone's going to have the 

1341
01:11:48,700 --> 01:11:52,300
ability to leave if they don't 
see this new vision and it still

1342
01:11:52,300 --> 01:11:53,500
needs to go until I'm chained 
vote. 

1343
01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:58,000
So it's ultimately still a 
decision by token orders and I'm

1344
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,600
pretty confident that it'll go 
through and we'll like will be 

1345
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:02,200
able to execute something really
awesome. 

1346
01:12:03,300 --> 01:12:08,100
The looks like the snapshot vote
is currently at 99.99%. 

1347
01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:09,300
Yes. 
So it looks like a probably 

1348
01:12:09,300 --> 01:12:11,400
gonna go through as of the 
moment. 

1349
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:13,500
Yeah. 
It was the most voted on 

1350
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:18,000
Snapshot ever and Faye protocol 
by a long shot, 10% of the 

1351
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,800
supply showed up fully diluted 
Supply. 

1352
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,500
So it was like of all of the 
tribe that could even possibly 

1353
01:12:24,500 --> 01:12:28,900
vote over half of it, showed up 
and fail, ABS participated, very

1354
01:12:28,900 --> 01:12:31,400
minimally. 
Like I didn't vote Seb didn't 

1355
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:33,600
vote, most of our investors. 
Invoke. 

1356
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,900
It was very just like totally 
Community. 

1357
01:12:35,900 --> 01:12:39,800
Like I'm so I'm actually floored
at how positive it was received 

1358
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,700
by the community. 
After we have here. 

1359
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,100
We added the rage, quit and 
change the proposal. 

1360
01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:46,900
Like everyone was on board, even
the people who like, aren't down

1361
01:12:46,900 --> 01:12:49,200
for this new vision or down 
because of the rage, but they're

1362
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,100
like, yeah, like you guys do 
your thing. 

1363
01:12:52,100 --> 01:12:53,800
I just want to take my thing and
get out of here. 

1364
01:12:53,900 --> 01:12:58,700
And I think that's going to be a
really positive kind of healthy 

1365
01:12:58,700 --> 01:13:03,100
moment for defies a whole. 
But particularly, you know, The 

1366
01:13:03,100 --> 01:13:05,600
fake community and the writing 
Community, it's going to be it's

1367
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:08,400
going to be really, you know, a 
powerful event. 

1368
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,900
Yeah, I mean II that's very 
interesting about this whole 

1369
01:13:11,900 --> 01:13:13,600
ecosystem think is that 
something I find? 

1370
01:13:13,700 --> 01:13:18,000
I see happening as well where 
it's like, you know, you know, 

1371
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,000
you take a stable coin, take a 
landing protocol. 

1372
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,800
You take a decks and you're not 
a pack of them all up. 

1373
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:26,100
And so like you mentioned, you 
know, I think you know, this is 

1374
01:13:26,100 --> 01:13:30,500
happening in Tara. 
I think that's happening in like

1375
01:13:30,700 --> 01:13:34,700
as you mentioned in like the 
spell commute ecosystem with 

1376
01:13:34,700 --> 01:13:38,200
that Daniel Lester is like 
putting together. 

1377
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,700
And you is that really where you
see like sort of tried going as 

1378
01:13:41,700 --> 01:13:45,400
well where it's like, okay, you 
know, you have this like stable 

1379
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:46,700
coin. 
Yeah, they're letting protocol 

1380
01:13:46,700 --> 01:13:47,800
eventually. 
You guys are always going to 

1381
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,400
acquire balancer, Alpha leak 
right here, blah blah. 

1382
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:52,800
Ladies that were, you see where 
this is all going. 

1383
01:13:53,700 --> 01:13:57,700
Absolutely. 
I think like tribe is tried like

1384
01:13:57,700 --> 01:14:00,000
new narrative. 
Basically like I want tribe to 

1385
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:05,000
be synonymous with defy in like 
two years, you know, and that's 

1386
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,500
the, that's the real vision is. 
It's like full stack, a bunch of

1387
01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:11,900
Very values, align teams, all 
independently contributing 

1388
01:14:11,900 --> 01:14:14,100
value. 
Like I will continue to lead the

1389
01:14:14,100 --> 01:14:17,200
stable coin side for as long as 
I can and I'll try and help with

1390
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:20,400
this like broader Vision, but 
everyone I want to bring in 

1391
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,100
leaders. 
I want to bring in people who 

1392
01:14:22,100 --> 01:14:25,900
can like build a product and 
help us integrate and create a 

1393
01:14:25,900 --> 01:14:29,800
really full stack experience for
defy and we're going to use PCV 

1394
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,500
to make that really, really kick
ass. 

1395
01:14:32,500 --> 01:14:34,800
And like that's the trick is 
that everyone who integrates 

1396
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,100
with us, gets hundreds of 
millions of tvl immediately. 

1397
01:14:37,900 --> 01:14:40,300
And if you did and if you're a 
builder and you're like, 

1398
01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:43,500
thinking about like what's going
to happen to defy, when everyone

1399
01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:47,100
consolidates like and you're and
you're like excited about what 

1400
01:14:47,100 --> 01:14:48,900
we're doing with like Faye and 
Rari. 

1401
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:52,000
And you know, we're already in 
talks with other teams and like 

1402
01:14:52,700 --> 01:14:55,100
it's going to happen and we want
to talk to you if you want to 

1403
01:14:55,108 --> 01:14:59,100
build on us like dma. 
It's a really powerful value 

1404
01:14:59,100 --> 01:15:00,900
proposition. 
When you have this tightly knit 

1405
01:15:00,900 --> 01:15:06,400
community that sharing resources
and like fostering leadership, 

1406
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,500
you know, like I want team. 
I want to see, like, people 

1407
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:13,400
fighting for like, what they 
believe in like in governance 

1408
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,600
and like, really sharpening The 
Sword and not just like one 

1409
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:18,700
team, kind of saying what's 
happening and that's what's 

1410
01:15:18,700 --> 01:15:20,000
happening, a lot with a right 
now. 

1411
01:15:20,300 --> 01:15:22,800
And I think we're doing a good 
job as kind of stewards with the

1412
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,400
community and we were elevating 
the community more and more. 

1413
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:27,900
But when you add in more 
development teams and more 

1414
01:15:27,900 --> 01:15:31,100
products, so you really get 
something magical where it's 

1415
01:15:31,100 --> 01:15:33,400
like true decentralization and 
that's what we're going for. 

1416
01:15:35,500 --> 01:15:38,300
So you guys remember those is 
one line and I think the 

1417
01:15:38,300 --> 01:15:42,300
governor's proposal or somewhere
but it said like different 

1418
01:15:42,300 --> 01:15:45,400
compete separate communities in 
one token. 

1419
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:50,400
What exactly does that mean? 
So I do think that in particular

1420
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:54,400
the community is I really want 
to like mesh together because 

1421
01:15:54,500 --> 01:15:57,500
like rawr team is maintaining 
its own brand and Faye is 

1422
01:15:57,500 --> 01:16:00,500
maintaining its own brand but 
tribe is like the umbrella. 

1423
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:05,700
And I think that there's like 
You know, it's kind of like 

1424
01:16:05,700 --> 01:16:07,600
everyone who's on the Terrace 
ecosystem. 

1425
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,100
You have like anchor protocol 
and like I don't even know what 

1426
01:16:11,100 --> 01:16:14,400
other stuff is over there. 
But like, that's all over on 

1427
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:18,500
Tara and everyone still like 
identifies very strongly with 

1428
01:16:18,500 --> 01:16:21,100
like Luna and the whole ends 
like aetherium almost like 

1429
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,200
communities within communities. 
I want it strive to become like 

1430
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,000
an asset that represents a lot 
of different communities that 

1431
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:31,000
all come together and like I 
cared talking about tribe and I 

1432
01:16:31,008 --> 01:16:33,800
care a ton about either like I'm
buying as much ether as I can 

1433
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,300
get. 
My hands on right now and like I

1434
01:16:36,308 --> 01:16:39,900
want people to like also feel 
that way about like tribe and 

1435
01:16:39,900 --> 01:16:42,300
have multiple teams all like 
building on drive. 

1436
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,700
That's really the vision. 
So the development teams will 

1437
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:49,300
stay independent, but they'll be
much more resource sharing. 

1438
01:16:49,500 --> 01:16:51,000
I'm actually on calls with the 
right team. 

1439
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,500
Almost more than the PHA team 
these days because, like, we're 

1440
01:16:54,500 --> 01:16:57,300
planning so many Integrations 
and so much about the merge. 

1441
01:16:57,500 --> 01:17:01,700
So yeah, it's going to be very 
fluid and kind of like, you 

1442
01:17:01,708 --> 01:17:03,900
know, authentic decentralization
that kind of the day. 

1443
01:17:04,100 --> 01:17:08,100
Level scale. 
One thing I guess makes this 

1444
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,900
merger interest different is 
like so like this is probably 

1445
01:17:12,900 --> 01:17:18,700
the largest is this the largest 
like token merge in like ever in

1446
01:17:18,700 --> 01:17:20,600
crypto, or do you know if 
there's any larger ones? 

1447
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,800
I don't know of any larger ones 
and it's definitely the coolest 

1448
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,300
if it's not the largest because 
it's too. 

1449
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:30,100
It's so here's the thing. 
It's two teams with product 

1450
01:17:30,100 --> 01:17:32,100
Market fit. 
That's that's what's so cool 

1451
01:17:32,100 --> 01:17:33,900
about this. 
Is that like other mergers? 

1452
01:17:33,900 --> 01:17:35,400
It's like you take one dying 
thing. 

1453
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:37,700
And one thing that's not dying 
and you like put them together. 

1454
01:17:38,300 --> 01:17:41,100
This is like two teams. 
I would have continued to kick 

1455
01:17:41,100 --> 01:17:43,800
ass if we stayed separate 
forever, but we just saw that 

1456
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,500
like one plus one equals three 
and that's like the meme that 

1457
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:48,600
we're going for right now. 
Like you take two things that 

1458
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:50,100
are already good. 
You put them together, you get 

1459
01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:52,700
something like that. 
Greater than the sum of the two 

1460
01:17:52,700 --> 01:17:55,000
parts. 
And that's really the, that's 

1461
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:56,700
really the vision and why it's 
so cool. 

1462
01:17:56,700 --> 01:18:00,500
In my opinion. 
Why don't I remember last year? 

1463
01:18:00,500 --> 01:18:04,800
There was this whole thing about
like sushi and yearn are merging

1464
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,200
and that they're going to share 
a depth, but then I never heard,

1465
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,900
there's like a blog post about 
this, but I never heard about it

1466
01:18:09,900 --> 01:18:12,500
again. 
What was like the deal with 

1467
01:18:12,500 --> 01:18:15,400
that? 
Look, I mean, here's the thing, 

1468
01:18:15,500 --> 01:18:18,200
like the urine ecosystem tried 
to do this. 

1469
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:20,200
They realize that consolidation 
is power. 

1470
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,300
And to be fair, the urine 
ecosystem is powerful. 

1471
01:18:23,500 --> 01:18:25,600
But because they have all these 
separate tokens, there's not 

1472
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:27,300
really a ton of incentive 
alignment. 

1473
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:29,900
So people are kind of just doing
their own shit and it was 

1474
01:18:29,900 --> 01:18:34,700
honestly pretty lackluster in 
execution and then the sushi 

1475
01:18:34,700 --> 01:18:38,100
sushi, tried to Vertical ice 
defy, my building every single 

1476
01:18:38,100 --> 01:18:40,800
product possible with one 
development team, and that 

1477
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:42,600
didn't go well either. 
So what? 

1478
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:44,800
Jay, and I realized that, even 
though it's In folder smash two 

1479
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:46,700
tokens together. 
It's the right way to do it. 

1480
01:18:47,100 --> 01:18:51,700
And like, we are going to 
continue on our product road 

1481
01:18:51,700 --> 01:18:53,900
maps. 
We have specialized expertise in

1482
01:18:53,900 --> 01:18:56,700
what we're doing but we have 
dramatic incentive alignment 

1483
01:18:56,700 --> 01:18:59,500
because we have one token 
instead of two and we think that

1484
01:18:59,500 --> 01:19:02,700
that's the model that 
consolidation will like will win

1485
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,900
and so it's really a bet on like
a certain type of consolidation.

1486
01:19:07,100 --> 01:19:10,300
That's at the token level and 
that's that's what that's the 

1487
01:19:10,300 --> 01:19:13,700
best that we're making. 
Yeah, because even if you make a

1488
01:19:13,700 --> 01:19:15,600
large token. 
So up with that when you think 

1489
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:18,700
about it like that, maybe you'll
be happy if the other protocol 

1490
01:19:18,700 --> 01:19:19,700
does. 
Well because you're like, yeah, 

1491
01:19:19,700 --> 01:19:22,600
we own some of the token but 
it's really not the same. 

1492
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:25,800
In the sense that like in the at
the end of the day, you're still

1493
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,700
rooting for your token and you 
want like your token to do well.

1494
01:19:28,700 --> 01:19:32,700
And like that's not probably the
only way to like actually be on 

1495
01:19:32,700 --> 01:19:35,800
the same on the same side. 
The same team as like, you need 

1496
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:39,700
to have the same token, right? 
Like otherwise, you're going to 

1497
01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:41,700
want to you're going to want the
best for yourself. 

1498
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,700
It's just natural. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1499
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,500
So that was the key intuition. 
And this was a common criticism 

1500
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,700
from a lot of community members.
Like why don't we just do a 

1501
01:19:51,708 --> 01:19:54,000
token swap? 
It's like, well, we've done 

1502
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,500
token swaps with other teams and
we still do them. 

1503
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,400
I think they're very useful and 
important, but it's a totally 

1504
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,500
categorically different type of 
incentive alignment. 

1505
01:20:01,500 --> 01:20:06,400
Like, we love index Coupe, but 
we would not like give them PCB 

1506
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:10,200
for any reason, right? 
Like we would we would buy DPI 

1507
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,000
and we would use it and like, do
stuff like that. 

1508
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,200
But with Rory, it's like We are 
going to put assets into their 

1509
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:17,400
protocol. 
We are going to pay off their 

1510
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:19,100
hack. 
We are going to do development 

1511
01:20:19,100 --> 01:20:22,300
with them. 
Like that is true incentive 

1512
01:20:22,300 --> 01:20:23,700
alignment and that's what a 
token. 

1513
01:20:23,700 --> 01:20:26,100
Merge gets you that a token 
swamp doesn't. 

1514
01:20:27,500 --> 01:20:29,700
So what are some of the plans 
for the future? 

1515
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:36,400
Perfect for, I guess Bay and 
Rory now and the tribe ecosystem

1516
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:37,700
as a whole. 
How do you? 

1517
01:20:38,100 --> 01:20:38,700
What? 
What? 

1518
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,100
Yeah, so, you know faii 
mentioned Favi to is launched 

1519
01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:44,500
from tomorrow. 
What are the things? 

1520
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,800
NG what are the assumption is 
that you're looking to validate 

1521
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,000
from this launch tomorrow? 
Yeah. 

1522
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:56,600
So the baby to launch. 
Its really like Faye is kind of 

1523
01:20:56,600 --> 01:21:01,000
the ship of Theseus. 
Like it's, it's one system that 

1524
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,400
has a bunch of changing 
components all times, like, even

1525
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:08,000
today before the Favi to launch.
The only contracts that are the 

1526
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:12,900
same from Favi one, or the fake 
token, the tribe token and R1 

1527
01:21:12,900 --> 01:21:16,200
Access Control core module. 
Every single other contract has 

1528
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,400
been completely replaced since 
Favi one. 

1529
01:21:18,700 --> 01:21:21,200
So it's already like, they'd be 
three if you think about it in 

1530
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:24,400
like a pure like software 
perspective, but the thing is 

1531
01:21:24,400 --> 01:21:26,600
that we're going to keep like 
adding new components and 

1532
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:30,200
replacing old components. 
They is like a very fluid system

1533
01:21:30,500 --> 01:21:34,200
and it uses a different 
architecture than most aetherium

1534
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:38,000
projects, like it's immutable. 
But with like very modular. 

1535
01:21:38,300 --> 01:21:40,700
So we don't have any upgrade 
ability except for two contracts

1536
01:21:40,700 --> 01:21:42,500
in this system. 
Everything else is just plug and

1537
01:21:42,500 --> 01:21:45,600
play, like Legos you get rid of 
I think old put in something 

1538
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:49,100
new. 
So, the baby to lunch tomorrow 

1539
01:21:49,100 --> 01:21:50,900
includes two really important 
features. 

1540
01:21:51,100 --> 01:21:53,700
It includes the tribe backstop 
as well as a rate. 

1541
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:56,500
Limiting module on Drive 
inflation, which is useful for 

1542
01:21:56,500 --> 01:21:58,000
tribe holders to kind of game 
out. 

1543
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:00,100
Like, there's no infinite 
minting attacks. 

1544
01:22:00,100 --> 01:22:03,100
There's no like craziness, like 
the hard rate limit on how much 

1545
01:22:03,100 --> 01:22:06,300
tribe can be inflated and to is 
the die. 

1546
01:22:07,100 --> 01:22:09,900
Redeem ability contract. 
It's really a PSM, just like 

1547
01:22:09,900 --> 01:22:14,500
maker now, and that is the most 
important. 

1548
01:22:14,700 --> 01:22:16,400
Mechanism. 
Because right now we have redeem

1549
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,600
ability against East which is 
great. 

1550
01:22:18,700 --> 01:22:21,900
But it on its own, it's a little
bit leaky because the chain-link

1551
01:22:21,900 --> 01:22:24,300
oracle's not perfect. 
It's the best that we have but 

1552
01:22:24,300 --> 01:22:28,900
it's not good enough to not leak
value to arbitrageurs and 

1553
01:22:28,900 --> 01:22:32,000
predictive like, you know, 
predictive Bots and stuff. 

1554
01:22:33,100 --> 01:22:35,600
So, we're adding a diet regime 
ability contract. 

1555
01:22:35,700 --> 01:22:38,700
What's awesome about this is 
that it's categorically 

1556
01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:40,500
different from the maker, dou, P
SM. 

1557
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:42,600
Make your dog does not control 
how much u.s. 

1558
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,200
D.c. 
They have, they only have a cap.

1559
01:22:45,100 --> 01:22:48,100
It's not PCV. 
They can't unload that usdcad 

1560
01:22:48,100 --> 01:22:52,300
where we can decide how much die
exposure we want. 

1561
01:22:52,300 --> 01:22:55,200
It's currently ten percent. 
It's going to go up to I think 

1562
01:22:55,200 --> 01:23:00,300
12 or 15 percent after this next
album passes, but that is a 

1563
01:23:00,308 --> 01:23:01,900
number that we control as a 
doubt. 

1564
01:23:02,500 --> 01:23:05,600
So, like maker Dow doesn't 
control how much you SDC 

1565
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:06,800
backing. 
There is, it's truly Market 

1566
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,300
determined, but we can say we're
going to sell all this die or 

1567
01:23:09,300 --> 01:23:11,400
we're going to buy more and 
that's totally up to us. 

1568
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:16,500
So we can we can decide the The 
level of dependency that we 

1569
01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:21,200
have, which is really powerful. 
And so we just want to see that 

1570
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,200
like that ready Mobility. 
Tightens the peg system spares 

1571
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:28,300
us from like buying and selling 
eith all the time and then we 

1572
01:23:28,300 --> 01:23:31,500
can focus on kind of the fun 
part, which is what happens 

1573
01:23:31,500 --> 01:23:33,600
after the merge. 
We're going to build a ton of 

1574
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:37,500
products that focus on, you 
know, like Dows. 

1575
01:23:37,500 --> 01:23:40,900
I have one product in particular
that I'm really excited about 

1576
01:23:40,900 --> 01:23:44,800
and and then like some future 
plans that I'm super excited. 

1577
01:23:44,900 --> 01:23:48,200
About. 
So what is the, what's your, you

1578
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:52,400
know, I think every protocol is,
you know, kind of mandated at 

1579
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,600
this point to have a plan for 
multi chain or entertaining. 

1580
01:23:56,500 --> 01:23:59,400
What is yours guys? 
It's looking like, I'll admit 

1581
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:01,300
I've made one at their young 
friends auction in the last 

1582
01:24:01,300 --> 01:24:05,000
month because a little part of 
me dies every time I pay a 

1583
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,900
transaction fee that's over 
$100. 

1584
01:24:08,300 --> 01:24:11,900
Yeah, so our multi chain 
strategy is like not right now 

1585
01:24:12,300 --> 01:24:15,300
pretty much and that's changing 
rapidly. 

1586
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:19,000
But basically they is a protocol
for dowse and dowse operate at a

1587
01:24:19,008 --> 01:24:22,000
scale that is still comfortable 
on aetherium layer 1. 

1588
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:25,200
So we're going to stay where the
dowels are. 

1589
01:24:25,500 --> 01:24:27,700
We're not fast enough stable 
coin for consumers. 

1590
01:24:27,700 --> 01:24:29,000
We're not competing with die and
u.s. 

1591
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:34,300
DC, we will eventually but our 
our like foot in the door is 

1592
01:24:34,300 --> 01:24:38,500
douse like I'm not concerned 
with how many retail users are 

1593
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:40,600
holding Fay because it's such a 
hard sell. 

1594
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,300
It's like phase of stable coin. 
That's not doesn't have as much 

1595
01:24:43,300 --> 01:24:46,400
of Lindy. 
It's not as useful as die yet, 

1596
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,700
but it's quickly becoming 
integrated everywhere. 

1597
01:24:49,700 --> 01:24:51,700
So, why would we try to compete 
there? 

1598
01:24:51,900 --> 01:24:54,800
When Fay is literally the best 
stable going to integrate with a

1599
01:24:54,808 --> 01:24:56,800
dowel and all the dolls are on 
maenette. 

1600
01:24:57,500 --> 01:25:01,200
So, we're staying on May 9th 
with the Dow's, basically until 

1601
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:03,400
L. 2 is more certain right now. 
It's kind of a shitshow. 

1602
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,300
It's like you got Arbitron. 
Do you go to optimism? 

1603
01:25:05,700 --> 01:25:08,800
Ock sink is coming. 
Like, you know, we're going to 

1604
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,700
just wait and see you go. 
Build tribe chain. 

1605
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,900
That's the answer dude. 
Loki that's going to happen. 

1606
01:25:14,900 --> 01:25:17,600
But don't like, like, that's the
mega Alpha leak is like, I don't

1607
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:22,500
know when, but that will happen.
Loki on this podcast with 10,000

1608
01:25:22,500 --> 01:25:24,000
prisoners. 
Don't tell anyone. 

1609
01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:28,500
There's wonderful multi-chain 
thing that that you probably 

1610
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:32,900
could do or probably will do if 
I'm guessing, like, so 

1611
01:25:32,900 --> 01:25:35,500
transmissions in Harare, like 
they've been working on this 

1612
01:25:35,500 --> 01:25:39,900
Nova thing where it was like a 
protocol for like a you can use 

1613
01:25:39,900 --> 01:25:46,100
for fast bridging like between 
roll ups or chains and like the 

1614
01:25:46,100 --> 01:25:50,300
the hard problem with these 
protocols for like A chain and 

1615
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:51,900
like Fast. 
Bridging is like you need 

1616
01:25:51,900 --> 01:25:55,600
Capital like so face, like a 
perfect fit because they can 

1617
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:59,400
literally just print into these 
these fast Bridges and like use 

1618
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:03,600
their use their, their, their 
protocol Nova for and do that. 

1619
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:05,500
So that's kind of like a 
multi-chain type thing. 

1620
01:26:07,100 --> 01:26:11,000
Yeah, absolutely. 
So basically like steak or is 

1621
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,900
staying on L1 for a long time, 
probably until it's very clear 

1622
01:26:14,900 --> 01:26:20,000
that we need to move but 
launching products and certain 

1623
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:24,000
amounts of PCV on to other 
chains is in the works at the 

1624
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,400
moment like Transmissions is 
working on it. 

1625
01:26:27,700 --> 01:26:29,300
David's working on it. 
One of our developers. 

1626
01:26:29,300 --> 01:26:32,300
Caleb is working on it. 
Basically we want to Joint lunch

1627
01:26:32,300 --> 01:26:35,500
fuse and Faye on a bunch of 
chains and I think fuse is 

1628
01:26:35,500 --> 01:26:37,300
getting a little bit of a head 
start because their devs are 

1629
01:26:37,300 --> 01:26:40,000
more Farmers on that than ours 
are at the moment, but we will 

1630
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:42,900
get there. 
So what imagine, like, fuses on 

1631
01:26:42,900 --> 01:26:45,400
all these other chains. 
Face-eating pools there. 

1632
01:26:45,500 --> 01:26:48,600
But it's not like core PCV is on
these other chains, yet if that 

1633
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:52,200
makes sense. 
You could get it on us - Moses 

1634
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:55,400
to Charlie. 
Thanks for coming on. 

1635
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:00,300
And, you know, sharing all this 
fun stuff about they and tribe 

1636
01:27:00,300 --> 01:27:05,000
and everything going on. 
Where can people sort of like, 

1637
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:08,200
find you and learn more, and 
what's the best way to for 

1638
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:10,400
people to get involved? 
Yeah. 

1639
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,400
Absolutely. 
So, follow the PHA protocol 

1640
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:15,500
Twitter account. 
It's just at FEI Protocol. 

1641
01:27:15,500 --> 01:27:19,500
No spaces, or me. 
I'm Joey underscore underscore. 

1642
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:21,900
Score Santoro. 
I tried to buy a better Twitter 

1643
01:27:21,900 --> 01:27:23,400
handle if anyone knows how to do
that. 

1644
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,500
I will. 
I will get one but that and then

1645
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:29,400
join our Discord. 
I think the Discord links in our

1646
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,800
Twitter bio. 
So, you know, we want to hear 

1647
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:36,100
from you DM me especially if 
you're a builder looking to join

1648
01:27:36,100 --> 01:27:38,500
us. 
Sick Mega doubt ecosystem. 

1649
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:41,100
And yeah like, thanks again for 
having me. 

1650
01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:43,000
This was awesome. 
Thank you. 

1651
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,300
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1652
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:49,200
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1653
01:27:49,700 --> 01:27:53,200
You can find a subscribe to the 
show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube 

1654
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:55,600
SoundCloud or wherever you 
listen to podcast. 

1655
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:58,800
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1656
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:00,900
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast. 

1657
01:28:01,500 --> 01:28:04,400
Go to epicenter, .t V /, 
subscribe for a full list of 

1658
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,000
places where you can watch and 
listen, while you're there, be 

1659
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:08,200
sure to sign up for the 
newsletter. 

1660
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,900
You get new episodes in your 
inbox as they're released if you

1661
01:28:11,900 --> 01:28:14,900
want to interact with us guests 
or other podcast listeners, you 

1662
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:17,700
Follow us on Twitter and please 
leave us a review on iTunes 

1663
01:28:17,900 --> 01:28:20,300
helps people find the show and 
we're always happy to read them 

1664
01:28:21,100 --> 01:28:22,600
with. 
Thanks so much and we look 

1665
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:23,800
forward to being back next week.