1 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,600 This episode of epicenter, Bitcoin is brought to you by 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,100 vulturo the goal to Bitcoin exchange trade gold, to bitcoin, 3 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:23,000 instantly and securely starting at just one milligram, go to V 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,900 or.com to deposit, some Bitcoin, and start trading today. 5 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:31,100 And by shape-shift with no No signup required. 6 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:33,300 It's the easiest way to buy and sell gems. 7 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:37,600 Dash, new bits mineiro and other leading cryptocurrencies go to 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,600 shape-shift dot Iota instantly convert your old coins and to 9 00:00:40,608 --> 00:00:43,100 discover the future of crypto currency exchanges. 10 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:48,700 Hi, welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show, which talks about the 11 00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:50,800 Technologies, projects and startups, driving 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,100 decentralization, and the global cryptocurrency Revolution, my 13 00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:57,900 name is Sebastian quechua, and my name is Franco and grain. 14 00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:02,900 We're back again today. All guests that we've had before 15 00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:06,800 attempts once and many of you will know him, he's been very 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,600 vocal in the Bitcoin Community, making people very angry on 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Reddit. And then the last episode, we 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,700 call them the big coin by posture. 19 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:21,900 And he's been busy keeping that up but he's also done a lot of 20 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:23,600 really interesting work in particular. 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,900 He's written an opinion, a white paper on this whole idea of sort 22 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:30,900 of blockchains before. Bitcoin, which is very 23 00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:32,700 interesting. So, thanks for coming on today, 24 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:35,200 Tim. Hey, thanks again for having me, 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:36,100 guys. Appreciate it. 26 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:43,100 So yeah you have a you always keep up this enormous volume of 27 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:48,200 writing which is very impressive and you have you've written some 28 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:53,600 some really important I think sort of thought pieces on the 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,500 kind of evolution of the space among other things. 30 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:02,100 You've written this white paper on consensus as a service. 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,600 Can you talk a little bit about what this sort of, you know what 32 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,199 the main idea of things? Sure. 33 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:14,200 So last year I was continually struck by this, this notion that 34 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:19,400 we are identifying people on both sides of transactions 35 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,600 through these different on ramps and off ramps, but we aren't 36 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,900 doing any doxing on validators and understand, you know, the 37 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:28,600 whole purpose of Bitcoin was couldn't trust. 38 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,400 Anyone couldn't trust the validators, so we use proof of 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,100 work, but if you're continually to doxing everybody, but the 40 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:38,700 validators. Why Why bother using, you know, 41 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,100 Bitcoin itself? Why not do some kind of database 42 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:43,100 and it was towards the end of the year. 43 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:48,300 The it's I began seeing a number of different startups emerge. 44 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,800 And then earlier this year, the it's kind of did a different 45 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,500 approach. They did a basically a, it's 46 00:02:54,500 --> 00:03:00,500 called now permission during a gated validation within the 47 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:04,500 network and that's specific to specific use cases. 48 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:07,300 This is not to say that it's the only approach. 49 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:09,500 And even compete with Bitcoin like in my view. 50 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:13,700 Let's Bitcoin be Bitcoin and not try to turn it into a million 51 00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:16,100 different things that it's not particularly suited for based on 52 00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:19,200 its capital expenses that are involved with proof of work. 53 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:25,400 And so it led me to write this report I guess that two months 54 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,300 ago and this is main thesis is okay, guys. 55 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:34,200 Well, it's the end of the day. How are we going to do? 56 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,300 Validation is our is one approach. 57 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,500 Much better than the other or they both have different 58 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:43,300 different advantages and disadvantages and my I guess 59 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,100 General take over over viewer, take takeaway, is that? 60 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,900 There is no one-size-fits-all. They both have trade-offs and 61 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:55,100 that they'll probably both coexist so they different 62 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:59,600 customers want to use both. Yeah, absolutely. 63 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,800 And I guess this is the idea though, because many people seem 64 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,900 to think in the Bitcoin space, that the very idea of having A 65 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:13,200 blockchain or doing any of these things, sort of, but separated 66 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,300 from Bitcoin, that doesn't work. And that makes no sense. 67 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:22,200 Why do you think that idea is so held by so many people? 68 00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:25,400 Well, number one, they own a lot of Bitcoins so that they wanted 69 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,500 to be that way because they'll hope that those coins. 70 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,600 Appreciate, that's totally fine. You know, if, if you were around 71 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,100 100 years ago, 115 years ago and you're like, oh I I think the 72 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:36,900 the aeronautical vehicles are, are the way forward and you 73 00:04:36,907 --> 00:04:39,300 start. Testing and then make sure you 74 00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:41,700 might have been writing your thesis and they became big. 75 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:44,900 But you may have just invested in companies or a company that 76 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:49,200 didn't pan out too well. So I think that there's a lot of 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,500 also ideological reasons, you know, there's a number of people 78 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:56,300 out there who think that Banks and Wall Street and all this 79 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:58,600 other you know the traditional Financial sphere just can be 80 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,300 destroyed. I'm not going to say that there 81 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:04,000 won't be margins will be eroded or there won't be entire 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,200 divisions removed like back officer or something that I 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,800 Speak to that. I really don't know. 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,800 But, you know, Banks each have their own, you know, in my 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,500 experience of talking with different banks. 86 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,500 The last three four months has, they've all had their own teams, 87 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,900 internal teams working sometimes, multiple different 88 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:23,800 groups of people working on how to integrate this technology. 89 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,100 So, just like you had pgp and SSL and Linux and open source 90 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:31,200 software in general, these ideas that were forked in merged 91 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,900 within Enterprises 15, 20 years ago. 92 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,500 I think it'll end up happening with this Tech to, I mean, You 93 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:40,900 don't, you don't necessarily need a Bitcoin like blockchain 94 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:43,700 though, to do all those things and I think that that Ruffles 95 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:47,600 some people's feathers because they bought into this, this 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,000 narrative that's prevalent on Reddit and it conferences that 97 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,200 the only one and the way the truth and the light, the the one 98 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,800 and only Savior for four or Ledger. 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,900 If you will is the Bitcoin letter, maybe, maybe that is the 100 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:04,200 case. But I have some doubts and we 101 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:10,600 could talk about some of those in this, if you like So, I mean, 102 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,400 it seems to me that we're talking about a very different 103 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,100 thing. And it's often important to sort 104 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:16,800 of like conceptualize that, right? 105 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,400 Because when you, when you start talking about a ledger where you 106 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,700 have different entities that are known and you know, we've done 107 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:29,400 some podcasts with well, hyper Ledger or areas that are both 108 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,700 sort of tackling that space. Then it's a really different 109 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:37,400 thing. Right, from where a network, 110 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,800 where it's open. In and sort of people in China, 111 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,100 can mine on it, on anybody can turn their machine on and 112 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:46,900 participate, right? And it's it's trying to solve a 113 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:50,500 really different problem. Yes, for sure. 114 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,200 The, the Bitcoin solves a problem for cypherpunks, how can 115 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,900 you do, how can you process transactions? 116 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:59,200 I can Section 1, how can you process transactions without a 117 00:06:59,207 --> 00:07:00,700 third party? You trusted third party. 118 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:04,400 And if you already, I fear a fear of financial institution, 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,300 you your, your starting assumptions are different. 120 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:10,700 You already have identities of your customer base, your staff, 121 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:13,000 your partners, and your payment processor. 122 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,300 So you don't necessarily need proof of work, but you don't 123 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:17,900 need a centralized database to there's still advantages of a 124 00:07:17,907 --> 00:07:21,200 distributed Ledger. Resiliency such as the ability 125 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,400 to conduct transactions without having to worry about 126 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,800 necessarily counterparty risk for a variety of reasons that 127 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,400 are trying to be tackled by like you said like hyper Ledger Eros 128 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:35,300 and Claire Maddox, maybe at the end of the day we end up with 129 00:07:35,300 --> 00:07:37,400 the weird Fusion between distributed databases and 130 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,100 distribute the ledgers for some of these companies. 131 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:41,900 I don't think that the company, these large institutions are 132 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:44,900 going to going to disappear. I mean they they all have 133 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,700 enormous amount of capital to use to either buy any of these 134 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:51,300 companies. That have traction or to create 135 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:55,000 their own own systems that create this utility and enhance, 136 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,600 you know, whatever customer services reduce costs of what? 137 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:00,300 Yeah, yeah. So I think that regarding the 138 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:04,600 sort of Bitcoin Reddit narrative that are the Bitcoin maximalism 139 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,900 as we might call it. I think part of that is also, 140 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,500 you know, every all these companies that are doing these 141 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:16,200 really Innovative things with Ledger's sort of all get dropped 142 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,500 into like the Bitcoin space, where they I have been inspired 143 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:24,100 by a Bitcoin to do the touch things are doing now, but their 144 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:27,000 interests don't lie with you. Like you said, the cypherpunks 145 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,400 are not in line with the cypherpunks. 146 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,200 So and I mean, I think you've seen this before in other 147 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,200 Technologies as well. I mean, just look at Linux, you 148 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,000 know, it's powering all Apple and Android phones. 149 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,700 And, you know, Apple is very much a close technology now. 150 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:45,400 So I think that's sort of part of the problem also is that we, 151 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,100 there's no line between what Bitcoin is trying to achieve. 152 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,100 Achieve and what is perceived to be like for it says, with Hyper 153 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:57,100 Ledger is trying to do or areas or these other permission 154 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:59,100 Ledger's that we can get into that later. 155 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,100 Yeah, I mean, actually, one of the funny things about this is 156 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:06,400 that when you look at this coin desk state of Bitcoin report and 157 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,700 they said, like, if you see fundings for Bitcoin startups, 158 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:12,300 the includes like Ripple in there, and things like that. 159 00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:14,300 If it's just, is quite funny, right? 160 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:17,000 I've gotta find out to be extremely misleading as it is. 161 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,800 Yeah, totally. People speaking of VC funding, 162 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:25,200 so yeah, as of today we've had about 800 million dollars, put 163 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,500 into this ecosystem. Have a post about this about a 164 00:09:27,508 --> 00:09:31,600 week or so ago and if you just do the cost of customer 165 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,100 acquisition. So typical Bank in the u.s. it 166 00:09:34,108 --> 00:09:36,400 cost about $1200 on board people. 167 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,700 And if you just do the division on 10 users, again, the whole, 168 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:46,000 you know, thesis with Bitcoin is you get to be your own bank and 169 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,600 your own bare asset. But if you look at the address, 170 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,600 The entities on on the Bitcoin Network itself to unchain side. 171 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:54,000 There's only about three hundred. 172 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,300 Seventy thousand individuals or entities that actually control 173 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:02,300 any, you know, any number any large amount anything larger 174 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:04,800 than one Bitcoin basically you can go to the Bitcoin really say 175 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,900 the distribution of this 99 98.9% of all Bitcoins are held 176 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:14,300 by by these entities. So if you just do the math on 177 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:18,300 that it's about 2400 dollars per individual actually sorry about 178 00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:20,300 22. Hundred dollars per person or 179 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:24,500 entity, which is about twice as much as Banks do for customer 180 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:26,100 acquisition. So, my might not be a Perfect 181 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:28,800 Analogy, but the basically, these are spending enormous 182 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,000 amount of money on trying to get people to do something that they 183 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,100 don't want to do, or individuals prefer using trusted third 184 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,700 parties, like coinbase and zap. Oh, and I understand, you know, 185 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:41,500 nobody wants to sit there and have to go through the hassle of 186 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,000 securing. Their own private keys. 187 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,400 But if you're using these trusted third parties, why don't 188 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,400 you? There's not a whole lot of 189 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,600 advantage of using them. Versus a large bank and this is 190 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,100 not to say one is better than the other, but if you just look 191 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:56,900 at the actual metrics of it, if these exact go and clean base 192 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:01,500 end up having to get licenses and do all the same rigmarole as 193 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:05,000 Banks do at the end of the day you just end up with a less less 194 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,200 secure bank and again maybe maybe things will change in the 195 00:11:08,208 --> 00:11:11,500 future but that's kind of the way it's played at the last I 196 00:11:11,508 --> 00:11:15,300 guess, six years or so. Yeah. 197 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:20,200 I mean of course you still have the option right with Bitcoin to 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,100 not do that. Like there's a lot of threads 199 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:26,700 now about coinbase wanting to, you know, prevent you from 200 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:29,800 sending certain point or coins to certain addresses, or you 201 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,800 received it from certain addresses, like, gambling sites. 202 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:34,200 They'll close down your account and then you're staying. 203 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,800 Like I was told and maybe this is completely wrong. 204 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,500 But, you know, there s VB, is they have basically 10 205 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:43,300 controllers, 10 people, monitoring the blockchain 206 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:47,600 active, We any time looking to see where transactions are are 207 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,900 going or where they've been received following basic us, 208 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:53,500 believe that they work on behalf of coinbase again. 209 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:57,100 Yeah, just what I've heard from multiple really good sources and 210 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:58,700 that makes sense. You know, hey you want to you 211 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:01,600 want to track Providence to see if it came from illicit trade 212 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:02,900 in. The reason I'm saying, it makes 213 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:05,700 sense, is they want to keep their banking license or being 214 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,300 chartered and so forth. So like they have it in 215 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,700 incentive, not to have that revoked, so they go and look at 216 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:15,000 the stuff. So I'm not The coinbase is going 217 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,400 to become a closed ecosystem, but yeah, for now you're right, 218 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,600 you can withdraw a coins and send them to different addresses 219 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,200 and so forth. But if you already dachshund 220 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,800 people on both sides, if you send wines from from coinbase to 221 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,400 zap, oh why do you need Bitcoin? Why can't you use one of these 222 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,500 other Ledger systems? There's no reason to go through 223 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:38,400 a minor in China to do that. I mean, I agree with you, right? 224 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,500 There, is this 10 cm and I think the bitlicense stuff is totally 225 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:44,000 in that direction. R. 226 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,700 I mean, I'm not exactly sure if that's still in there. 227 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,100 But for at least a while, it said in there, right? 228 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:53,700 That bitlicense companies, that get a bit license, will need to 229 00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:59,400 do kyc on both parties or both sides of each transaction, 230 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,800 right? So, and actually, in the digital 231 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,200 gold book, it was also written a basic about you said, now that 232 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,300 coinbase has had for a long time. 233 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:12,900 They've had to, you know, basically try to figure out 234 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:15,400 where you send money. And make sure that it's below a 235 00:13:15,408 --> 00:13:17,000 certain amount of things like that. 236 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,700 And and otherwise they would have to perhaps reverse your 237 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:22,700 payments and things like that. And there are sometimes reports 238 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,700 that happening on Reddit. Is it all the time? 239 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:27,200 I saw some of that this week actually. 240 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,000 Yeah. Right so and of course if you 241 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,100 take this further, write a mean, if there will be a point where 242 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:35,700 maybe it says, like oh you can't send from coinbase to some 243 00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:39,000 unknown address and if that happens on a wide scale, then, 244 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,700 yes, I mean that really sort of rates Bitcoin at some point but 245 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:44,700 I personally don't think I think that will happen. 246 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,500 I think we're probably will happen is just a drives people 247 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:54,000 to using wall, etcetera, run locally because they're you just 248 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,600 can't do that. Yeah. 249 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,600 But those people are not who are those people, right? 250 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,700 Those are not the masses, those are. 251 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:04,800 Yeah, I mean, of course, it remains to be seen to what 252 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,000 extent this breakthrough and I mean I think that's that's one 253 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,900 of the one of the interesting things that one of the ways I 254 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:18,100 think about this, But it stays is really ambitious Gamblin. 255 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:23,300 Bet to have this Global decentralized, cryptocurrency, 256 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:25,900 peer-to-peer cryptocurrency, and it's a long shot. 257 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:29,200 It's a hard thing but it's a revolutionary, huge idea, right? 258 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,000 It's a huge idea that people keep their wealth may be in 259 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:37,000 developing world and other countries in Bitcoin and, but a 260 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,100 lot of startups that are sort of implicitly making that bit and 261 00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,500 then there are others and Laughing, that's where the 262 00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:47,200 permission letter idea comes in. That's a well there's something 263 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,300 interesting about this technology but we're not going 264 00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:52,600 to make this bet that it's going to like power this new world 265 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,400 currency. But we'll use it for something 266 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,400 else. And then that's sort of obvious 267 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,900 in near and it's not nearly as risky because you don't you 268 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:04,200 don't make out of it. Sure, obviously I have no 269 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,000 crystal ball, a lot of again and this is not to be saying that 270 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,800 these are bad or entrepreneurs are bad in this space but almost 271 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,600 all I don't say almost all significant portion of the 272 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,000 funding has gone into it. So far is based on Forex plays 273 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,500 basically, you know the bitpay, one of the guys was just talking 274 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:27,700 this last week that hey we hold as many Bitcoins as we can. 275 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:32,200 We try not to sell them at least not on exchanges because we're 276 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,800 Thing that it will appreciate and therefore investors make 277 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,500 money off of the appreciation. Well, that's just an asset 278 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:39,100 manager. That's just a 4X play. 279 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:41,000 That's not, that's not that's not payments. 280 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,400 I mean if you go to Angel list right now there's just under his 281 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,200 a big pay said they are basically trying to speculate on 282 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,900 the Bitcoin price. Yes yes. 283 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:51,800 I mean I've heard it like 4 other five. 284 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,500 I've heard it since the last fall but this is the first time 285 00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:58,200 anyone said it in public, you know hey we're holding on to as 286 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,700 many coins as we can as a result end up having you know large 287 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,400 amount. Out of of underwater coins on 288 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,800 their books. And again, maybe it turns out 289 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,800 well and you know, they make a lot of money because it goes at, 290 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,700 you know, 10,000 some like that. But that's a 4X B, that's not a 291 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,500 payments bet. And so as a result you end up 292 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:20,800 like Robert Sanders pointed this out last year, basically, the 293 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,000 whole ecosystem of the Holy Ghost, a significant portion of 294 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,300 the ecosystem is relying on price appreciation. 295 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,900 So they're holding onto these coins and having to rely on VC 296 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:31,600 funding on Fiat cash. Another National currencies 297 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,600 actually build the The system itself there was one criticism 298 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,000 of the article I wrote I guess a week or so ago about how you 299 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,800 know miners over the last two years have received about 1.1 300 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,700 billion about 1.1 billion dollars worth of rewards, you 301 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:47,100 have the wealth transfer from parties one party to another in 302 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:51,400 the form of the seniority of this block reward and you know 303 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,200 they didn't they're not spending that. 304 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,600 You don't the only company I believe that's actually spending 305 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,700 that is bitfury on and on other Investments improvements to the 306 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,700 ecosystem. Everyone else's is effectively 307 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:02,500 cashing out which is great for Them. 308 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,300 But the point is all these other startups are still having to 309 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:07,400 rely on VC funding to actually build it. 310 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,700 So Robertson's analogy was like it's like relying on People's 311 00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:14,800 Bank of China to actually build your economy rather than using 312 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,500 your own domestic currency to actually build up. 313 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:20,200 So again, you know, people in practice versus people in 314 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,200 theory, people, in practice, our want to use this informational 315 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,300 commodity to speculate on as an asset rather than, as an actual 316 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:34,100 virtual cash or virtual currency, So Perhaps, Perhaps 317 00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:37,100 them startups should rather be mining and using that mining 318 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:40,000 reward to fund their companies rather than getting VC money 319 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,300 because it looks like, like, like miners are making more 320 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:45,700 money than the startups are. Yeah, it's a zero. 321 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:49,600 Okay, so the question is, is it what's your thesis like is? 322 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,800 Are you, are you willing to bet? Like so mining is is a force 323 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,300 play. You are literally converting one 324 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:00,700 National unit of account for virtual unit of account with the 325 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:03,400 hope it's going long. On one currency in short on the 326 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,200 other. And so, you know, are you 327 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,300 willing to play with variance? Is that the dance you willing to 328 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:12,900 do? Or are you willing to bet on the 329 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,800 they'll be uptake through some other consumer-facing product. 330 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,000 And again, I'm not saying one is better than the other we know 331 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,900 mining zero-sum. The only people who actually 332 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,600 really make money are those who either steal electricity or have 333 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,100 some subsidized electricity somewhere in China or Georgia or 334 00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:29,000 something like that. So yeah, there's trade-offs and 335 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,600 I'm not going to say one's better than the other. 336 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,300 I certainly can't do that. Kind of judgment. 337 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,200 It's time for a word from our sponsor of all tor.com. 338 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,600 So you know, there's different ways that you can use Bitcoin, 339 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,100 some people use it as an investment and speculate on it. 340 00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:45,300 But if you're a Bitcoin business like us and you don't have a 341 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:48,800 bank account, you don't want to be exposed to that volatility 342 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,600 risk and you know, there's different ways that you can 343 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,900 protect yourself against that. Some people have bank accounts 344 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:58,000 we don't we only use Bitcoin with, you know, our advertisers 345 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,400 and suppliers. And we don't want to end up like 346 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,200 a Bitcoin foundation and lose all of our money. 347 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,400 When the price goes down, So we have to hedge and to do that. 348 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,000 We use it Altura Soviet epicenter Bitcoin. 349 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,100 We had to about 50% of our funds with v 4 in gold and it's super 350 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:17,600 easy. And deposit is there instantly 351 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,900 you can start trading just one milligram. 352 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:23,700 So you know, there's no real barrier to entry and the great 353 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:25,700 thing is where you can really run a business. 354 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,200 You can be protected from the volatility and you can do it 355 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,000 without having fiat currency and without even requiring a bank 356 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,100 account. And then you don't even need to 357 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:38,700 provide KY see if you deposit up to five thousand dollars worth 358 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:41,300 of Bitcoins per day. So will Tory, makes it super 359 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,300 easy makes it super convenient and, and really gives you the 360 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:48,000 option to be protected from the volatility and be a 361 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,600 cryptocurrencies business because of all tor.com and start 362 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,700 trading. Today, we would like to thank 363 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,100 vulture for their support of epicenter Bitcoin. 364 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,600 Let's talk a little bit more about this permission. 365 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,400 Ledger's case. So, I mean, one of the arguments 366 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,800 is and I it It's an argument that kind of makes some sense is 367 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,000 that if you have a bunch of people who are known, write a 368 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,300 bunch of banks that operate. Is this Ledger Network? 369 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:20,400 Why do you need in the first place? 370 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,600 Like why is a blockchain necessary? 371 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,400 Then what value does it provide? If it's not that censorship 372 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,100 resistant think that Bitcoin does? 373 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,600 It's a really good question. I get this asked many times I 374 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,900 think Roberts has actually done the most intellectual heavy 375 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:40,700 lifting on this again. If people aren't just, did it 376 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:43,500 really recommend just looking through the report, especially 377 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:46,300 the last section, before the list of companies that I look 378 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:52,000 at, I think the ins it's between like, page, 25, and 28 or so, 379 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:58,000 and they're actually the 20s. If you will, the 20s in his 380 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,100 thesis. And I guess a couple other 381 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:04,700 people at this point is the hey you could use this data layer as 382 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:08,400 both. And to structure, whatever, kind 383 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,400 of instructions do have this Turing completeness at several, 384 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,700 these systems. Have not all not all the 385 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:18,400 margarine complete obviously, but Aris, clear, Mattox. 386 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:22,500 And I guess a couple other ones could modify to to use some kind 387 00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:23,900 of Turing complete virtual machine. 388 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,100 The idea is you get to basically use The Ledger itself as the 389 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,200 settlement mechanism which speeds up settlement finality 390 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:37,600 between numerous Different. Well in this case Financial 391 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,500 image instruments like the this report again was is basically 392 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:43,400 this focused on how can financial institutions use this 393 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,300 for effectively settlement clearing. 394 00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:49,900 And so you could reduce, you know, settlement time from from 395 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:54,200 t, plus v, 2 T to 10 minutes or 10 seconds or whatever arbitrary 396 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,200 amount of time you want to do and that supposedly will save 397 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,500 people costs whether that does it along when we'll find out. 398 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,300 So it's some point in the next six to 12 months, I think we'll 399 00:22:04,308 --> 00:22:07,300 have more data to See if it actually, you know, is a good 400 00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:11,600 idea or not. So it's he idea here that the, 401 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,900 because, of course, he could have some Central party, that 402 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:20,500 just does Vicki the settlement and then they could do just as 403 00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,800 good of a job as using a blockchain - oh, is he is the 404 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,300 advantage here that you don't. People don't want to trust and 405 00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:32,000 Central party to do the settlement and that's why using 406 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,000 a ledger is better for that. Well, we already have, we have, 407 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,900 we have Clearing Houses in cchs. Ccps were created. 408 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,700 You know, after 2008 to do just that, like, there was no 409 00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:44,800 Clearinghouse for OTC derivatives. 410 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,200 And I know, at least it's clear backs. 411 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,400 And, by the way, disclosure, I'm an advisor to both hyper Ledger 412 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,900 and Claire Maddox. And just want to let people know 413 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:56,300 that the idea was. I believe that clear Maddox is 414 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,300 saying, hey, this network that we're creating is actually the 415 00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:04,200 Clearinghouse, or sorry. It is the counterparty, the is 416 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,200 distributed. So you have a In counterparty 417 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,300 effectively and which makes being it creates a new Financial 418 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:12,700 control and I'll you have segregated, the only have 419 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,700 segregated facilities for you know a variety of different 420 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:17,500 exchange of broker-dealer so forth. 421 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:19,900 But now that you have this other Financial control in which 422 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:23,500 nobody can actually it becomes increasingly difficult to 423 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,000 reverse those transactions or manipulate this transactions 424 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:28,900 that could be actually a reduced costs and create more 425 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:32,200 transparency within an organization with Bitcoin 426 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,300 itself. There is no way to it from a 427 00:23:34,308 --> 00:23:37,100 technical standpoint. Point to actually prevent a 51% 428 00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,100 attack or history reversing attract. 429 00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:43,300 It's an economic incentive and economic issue. 430 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,900 There's no, you know, I think it was it Andreas Antonopoulos. 431 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,800 He got, he got scolded on Reddit for saying, hey, we could 432 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,600 rewrite the code or we could, you know, Blacklist different 433 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,200 different nodes. That's if you can Blacklist, 434 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,300 then you that you've kind of defeated the whole purpose of 435 00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:01,700 Bitcoin itself. Right. 436 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,400 The whole purpose was it did its Dynamic membership? 437 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:08,900 Our who are signing these coinbase transactions and if 438 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,500 you're black listing them, then you're just going back to this 439 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:15,400 old system. So at least for censorship with 440 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,400 these permission Ledger's, you know, they're assuming that, you 441 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,100 know, irreversibilities the priority and you can actually 442 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,500 contractually obligated make that happen with with, with 443 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,500 gated with permission. Ledger's, you sacrificed some 444 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:32,700 censorship resistance for that, but at the end of the day, 445 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:35,300 financial institutions are more interested in irreversibilities. 446 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:40,800 And censorship resistant. So why is that 51%? 447 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,900 Attack threat such an issue? I mean, like, let's say you want 448 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,000 to do security settlement on the blockchain, because I mean, 449 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,900 after all, so far, there hasn't been a proper 51% attack because 450 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:56,900 it's been around for a long time is just that big possibility 451 00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:00,900 that it could happen such a big problem for this use case, it's 452 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,300 two things. Number one, ignoring 51% for a 453 00:25:03,308 --> 00:25:06,700 moment, any given day, you are Have two or three pools and 454 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,500 simply just have no incentive to add more transactions. 455 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,600 So you only have the coinbase transaction one transaction in a 456 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,600 block. So you have, you know, thousands 457 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,200 of transactions, of pileup, regardless of bees that don't 458 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,300 get included. So you have a interesting game 459 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,700 theory issue going on to where if you're trying to build a 460 00:25:24,708 --> 00:25:28,300 time-sensitive settlement product or something that ties 461 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:31,300 in with the Bitcoin network, has a settlement product you're 462 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,900 having to rely on these the suit Anonymous minor. 463 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:35,300 So, actually, we actually pretty much know. 464 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,000 No, it's not to include or not to include or to sensory 465 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:43,700 transaction so forth but the 51%. 466 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,800 Yeah, who do you call if that happens? 467 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,600 There's no terms of service. There's no contractual 468 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,800 obligation to go through with this. 469 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,900 So, you're SOL basically just like, in two years ago, when you 470 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:55,700 had that effective for, you know, for your 20 4 blocks that 471 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,700 were thrown away that added up to be tens of thousands of 472 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,200 dollars for something, for some customers, for some payment 473 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,100 processors, in March 2013. And so, it was There hasn't been 474 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:07,800 an attack because there's no release incentive attack. 475 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,200 But if you start beginning to put large value transactions in 476 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,100 bulk, you now have a new potential attack Vector. 477 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,000 I think that, you know, you've had guests on with Jonathan 478 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,300 being or maybe at least you've talked to him on the off chain, 479 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,800 if you will about this, you know what what are the ramifications 480 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,900 of putting watermarks coins are colored coins or metal coins on 481 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,300 to a Bitcoin like blockchain that are transferring octane 482 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,600 assets are to trying to To settle off, chain assets. 483 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600 There's again, you know, if it's already off chain and you having 484 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,400 identified these different users and so forth, why would you go 485 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,600 through these student on this validators? 486 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:49,000 The it's there's no terms of service for its communal. 487 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,000 That's a communal issue, right? Like, well, who do you call? 488 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,500 If they reverse your transactions, what ends up 489 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:55,300 happening? Is you go on, read it and you 490 00:26:55,308 --> 00:26:56,700 complain a lot. That's what happened there. 491 00:26:56,708 --> 00:26:58,700 Was it? There was an instance, just last 492 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:04,000 month, a user, or two months ago, a user accidentally sent 493 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,600 was like, 85. For a transaction fee. 494 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,800 And because a bit GO error with big go. 495 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,300 And they sat there, there was for a whole day. 496 00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:13,900 There's lots of yelling and screaming. 497 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,600 And finally, I was a bit main, they and they run a pool to 498 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,100 Chinese pool and, and pool said, I will refund your cash. 499 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,600 Okay. And so, like, in the future, you 500 00:27:23,608 --> 00:27:27,700 know, I are you, are we gonna is NASDAQ ready to have to go on to 501 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,300 Reddit and sit there and complain all day to have, you 502 00:27:30,308 --> 00:27:33,700 know, a hundred Bitcoin transaction or Watermark coin. 503 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,300 That's worth, you know, you know, I must have value, like 504 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:38,900 Apple stock, you know, put some 150 billion dollars of Apple 505 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,600 stock on the network and you'll have new incentives to 506 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,600 potentially reverse it, because miners aren't really effectively 507 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,800 destroying enough Capital to protect that. 508 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,300 There they no way for them to recognize that that colors exist 509 00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:51,500 and so forth. Maybe there's some, maybe 510 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,900 there's some solutions, that, you know, see some proposals for 511 00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:57,500 for getting mining pools, color, or Lair, or Watermark to wear, 512 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,700 but that y goes through this rigmarole. 513 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:02,700 Why use is proof of work network. 514 00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:04,900 If you're already have the identities of all the different 515 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,700 parties, All right, so one of the issues would be the bullet, 516 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:11,300 a hypothetical. Somebody said we want to start 517 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:14,600 trading stocks on the Bitcoin blockchain using colored coins. 518 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:20,200 And then now there is a 51% attack something like that and 519 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,000 the ownership is changed, right? Like let's say I managed to 520 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,200 steal some Apple stock this way. Then what happens, right? 521 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:35,000 Does that mean like for example, am I going to be able to use the 522 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,200 owner? Ship of this cryptographic token 523 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,100 to now, receive the Apple dividends and stuff. 524 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:43,700 Or does that mean? Because actually, I stole it and 525 00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,400 somebody can prove. I stole it that even though in 526 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,600 our own this cryptographic token, I don't actually own the 527 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,400 underlying asset, right? So that seems to be a big issue. 528 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:54,600 Sure. Yeah. 529 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,300 So I really couple articles last year with the help of some 530 00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:59,900 people like like Jonathan Roberts Sam's. 531 00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:05,300 The idea is this is if you in the instance it's somebody ends 532 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,800 up. With a good or in this case a 533 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,200 dividend, it's not there's the companies left with two choices 534 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,500 right there left was either paying that dividend which then 535 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:19,900 makes them liable to basically being sued by either knowingly 536 00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,800 paying a criminal or somebody that doesn't want to wear number 537 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,300 two, if they don't pay and they, you know, reverse that 538 00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:28,700 transmitter trying to reverse it or they just cut off that that 539 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:32,000 coin or whatever it might be, then it defeats the purpose of 540 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,800 using a decentralized network, right? 541 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,200 So, I think the See the funny quote, I've heard most recently, 542 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,600 he's with IBM in Samsung doing that partnership with with the 543 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,700 washing machine Richard Brown. It was an on-call Richard Brown. 544 00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:47,400 If you guys aren't familiar, is got a great blog. 545 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,100 He works over at and UK at IBM and this is his own personal 546 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:54,600 view. I believe was, what happens what 547 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,900 happens if we put these digital these virtual Wallets on on 548 00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:00,300 these different machines, these different appliances and they 549 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:02,200 end up in. We have these Bearer instruments 550 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,000 flying around in one day you wake up in your washing machine 551 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,700 somehow. Ended up with property titles in 552 00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:10,300 Deeds to, you know, homes and hospitals and stuff like that. 553 00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:12,800 Like, why what do you do in this instance? 554 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,300 So it raises up a bunch of, not a bunch of really good 555 00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:18,200 questions. But then a day, if you have real 556 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,700 world, identity attached to any of these things, you don't 557 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:22,800 necessarily need to use a proof-of-work blockchain for 558 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,600 this. So, if you have to turn to 559 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200 reverse those transactions or go to court and say, hey Court, you 560 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,600 know, my property Deeds sitting on a washing machine, a thousand 561 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,500 miles away, you know, what do I do? 562 00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,200 Or you know what my heart my house. 563 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,500 But the the fire in my washing machine is bald my house. 564 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:40,600 Like I get it back. Yeah. 565 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,000 Or you know you see this already happened with big we've had 566 00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:48,200 between 2009 and 2014 and had about a million Bitcoins that 567 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,700 were lost stolen, see is distributed. 568 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:52,900 We ended up with was out there. The rightful owner, legitimate 569 00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:54,100 owner, however, you want to Define it. 570 00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:58,100 And so, this devolves into questions of bona, fide 571 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,000 ownership and Nema dot. Like, it was a really good law 572 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,800 article written earlier this year. 573 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Talking about encumbered Lines or coins that lack good title. 574 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:11,200 And since we've had, you know, like I said, a million coins and 575 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,200 been lost on Steve's and Andre lost or Source re-released on 576 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,700 and so forth and they're mixed and pooled. 577 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,800 It creates a problem for for those who have clear tie, like 578 00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:24,300 who knows if this ever gets big enough to actually sue people 579 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:31,000 for, but there could be a chance a case made the it's even coins 580 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,300 that you guys might have were proceeds of an illicit 581 00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:37,400 transaction. There's no way to effectively 582 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,700 cleanse these tokens from encumbrance from previous 583 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,100 illicit, or accidental trades and so forth. 584 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,700 So we end up having is you have an economy that grants to a 585 00:31:46,708 --> 00:31:49,500 standstill because none of its Exempted from Nemo dot. 586 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,800 Even got Switz are our currencies in the world are is 587 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,300 once they go through a custodian, they're magically 588 00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:57,100 cleanse, we don't have that yet. In the Bitcoin World, maybe 589 00:31:57,100 --> 00:32:00,200 there will be one at some point. But this this this Bearer 590 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,200 instrument is just dual sided, right? 591 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,600 You have the ability to be your own paying, but at the same 592 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,500 time, You lose that somehow. If you lose a credential that 593 00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,900 practically you lose access to not just the coins as a Arts 594 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:14,900 early, the assets as they are today, but in the future, maybe 595 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,600 homes, the cars boats and so forth, but I mean, how is that? 596 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,700 If cash, I mean, if I get a receipt you know I pay 597 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:25,100 something. Someone gives me a ten dollar or 598 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:28,900 ten years or whatever that at one point were stolen and maybe 599 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,600 that number is recorded somewhere, still? 600 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,300 That's that's now my money, right? 601 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:36,500 Nobody's going to come and Take it away. 602 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,600 Sure sure. So this is not going to similar 603 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:39,700 way. No. 604 00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:41,600 Also. Right now there's a principle 605 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,400 called me MoDOT. It's actually longer it's a 606 00:32:43,408 --> 00:32:45,700 Latin phrase and I've written about it three or four times. 607 00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:48,400 I'm not the lawyer. I talked to the lawyers. 608 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,400 Have been looking into this including Ryan Strauss and 609 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,100 there's a guy Perkins Foy Perkins boy named. 610 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:55,600 I think his George Fogg who wrote an article that was quoted 611 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,100 in the financial times. A few months ago, the general 612 00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:02,900 idea is, hey, legal tender laws. Apply to what we have these 613 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:05,200 National currencies and I'm not defending legal. 614 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Laws per say I'm saying, but the way it works is Cash is 615 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,800 specifically Exempted from having to deal with this 616 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,300 Providence issue. Because just as you said, if it 617 00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:20,800 if your cash was at any time, proceeds or took part in illicit 618 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,600 trade, the economy would grind to a standstill because you just 619 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,500 wouldn't know what to use this cash for. 620 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:27,400 Oh, I just, let's go to leave it there, right? 621 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,000 But Bitcoins are virtual currencies at this point, still 622 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,300 haven't gone through that kind of vetting process. 623 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:35,600 There's no such thing as a custodian that cleanse Azure 624 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,800 provides exemption to is encumbered coins, if you will, 625 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,900 or encumbered virtual assets. Maybe there will be at some 626 00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:45,200 point but they're not. So yeah, I think that's 627 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,600 something that's the legal Community within the legal 628 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,900 profession. Within the Bitcoin Community is 629 00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:52,400 debating. You see it on Twitter 630 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,700 occasionally I'm sometimes interjected because I think it's 631 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,000 I think it's a very interested in Bitcoins recreated all that 632 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,700 all the problems we've had the last 400 years but with the 633 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:05,200 intermediaries as custodians with currency. 634 00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:08,400 So and we get to see it, you know, in a very compact 67-year 635 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,699 form. So it's a very it's a very 636 00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:13,699 interesting way of looking at history and seeing why 637 00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,900 intermediaries were created in the first place and why, you 638 00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:19,699 know, what's the purpose of disintermediating, if we keep on 639 00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:23,500 creating the same, intermediaries today's magic 640 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:29,000 word is hype hyp e head over to. Let's talk Bitcoin.com to sign 641 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,100 in enter the magic word and claim your part of the listener 642 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:41,900 reward. So what were the interesting 643 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:44,000 parts of your white paper? Or the thought part that I 644 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,100 really liked is the way that you sort of. 645 00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:54,900 Look at the entire spectrum of Ledger Technologies from the 646 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,300 fully decentralized to the fully centralized. 647 00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:59,700 And on one end we have like Bitcoin type technology on the 648 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:01,600 other end. We have the existing banking 649 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,700 system and Of the things that you do in the white paper. 650 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:10,700 And you quote mayor Roy, who's got this really nice chart of 651 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:15,300 sort of the the different levels of tokenization. 652 00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:21,400 I would say that we have sort of in this Bitcoin ecosystem but 653 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,900 it's a broader sense like the financial technology in 654 00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:29,100 ecosystem, can you talk about some of the different levels and 655 00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:32,400 the use cases that we would have in each level are going from 656 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,100 like for instance like the hyper Ledger type of Technology. 657 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,600 E all the way down to Bitcoin work. 658 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,600 We see this going in, like maybe some lunch shots like ten years. 659 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,300 Wow, long shot, ten years so that's really good questions. 660 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,900 Yeah, so for the, for the listeners mayor Roy, he 661 00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:49,800 published this really interesting two different 662 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000 charts. If you look on the paper, it's 663 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,300 on page 13 and 14. Basically, he takes, you know, 664 00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:57,500 different assumptions. What are you what are your your 665 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,200 investment thesis? What is your invention thesis if 666 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,600 you will from token gnosticism, which would be I guess heiress 667 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,800 and Hyperlite Your ticket the currency maximalism some kind of 668 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,400 cryptocurrency work run wins out for everything the Bitcoin 669 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,900 maximalism hyper Bitcoin has Asian hyper Bitcoin is a shinza 670 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:17,000 theory. The Bitcoin takes over 671 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,200 everything and anything and everything. 672 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,800 You know the the financial industry is completely in 673 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,500 upheaval and destroyed so forth. So, you know, the the there's 674 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:32,000 different levels of this and the VC thesis so far at least the 675 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,300 public stuff has been towards, you know, big Coin maximalism at 676 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:39,600 least cryptocurrency maximalism and even to some extent, hyper 677 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,600 Bitcoin ization. So there hasn't been a whole lot 678 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,400 of funding really in token agnosticism and I think that's 679 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:47,800 not because these are bad or stupid or anything. 680 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,300 That's has more new like the narrative has been. 681 00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:55,900 You know, since 2009 they take one Ledger is going to rule them 682 00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:59,800 all and is going to absorb all the purchasing power of all 683 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,900 these different Fiat currencies and and so on and so forth, 684 00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:05,600 maybe that happens. But there's also a If a good 685 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,600 chance that, that doesn't happen if it doesn't happen, then what, 686 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,900 what, what can you invest in and what kind of start ups are out 687 00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,700 there to do that? So yeah, the report primarily 688 00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:18,100 looked at levels 2 & 3, Tok, agnosticism and cryptocurrency 689 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:20,200 maximalism. At least companies that would 690 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,000 fall underneath that. I don't think that the people 691 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600 within those companies. I don't want to put words in her 692 00:37:24,607 --> 00:37:28,900 mouth, but I don't think that they are necessarily maximalist 693 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:32,200 towards a particular token or currency. 694 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,900 I think that they're more looking for this this you these 695 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,100 Has requirements that these different companies have and 696 00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:40,000 maybe again I think the tokens themselves are just a red 697 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,900 herring. Like maybe there is a use for 698 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,800 maybe there, isn't it? Disciplines on the business 699 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,700 requirements. So what for whatever reason, 700 00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:50,000 though, if when you go to these meetups really, really smart 701 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,500 people, all of them were much more brilliant than me, higher 702 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:56,400 IQs and so forth, really good software designers, but on the 703 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,200 finance and econ side, you know, I think that they could learn a 704 00:37:59,207 --> 00:38:03,600 bit from financing econ, gurus and in the actual sexual like 705 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,200 Financial world. But tend not to in fact, not to 706 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,500 pick on point as but they had an article like villains Bitcoin 707 00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,500 last year and you know, the some of the villains I have there 708 00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,300 were these econ gurus who tried to, you know, give free advice 709 00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:20,200 to the the Bitcoin Community saying, hey, you guys might be 710 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,400 interested in knowing what's happened before in history but 711 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,600 you know, if I'll give you one small like that, I was in 712 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:32,900 Singapore in November and I was a couple different events out 713 00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,600 there for a week and One and one closed-door session. 714 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:43,200 That was a VC, a lady who is, who's out in California, who 715 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,100 works for VC firm. And she's like, oh, the hashcash 716 00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:49,900 reinvented rules of Economics, laws of Economics. 717 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:51,900 We don't need to listen to these other guys and I was like, oh 718 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:53,800 wait. So you're saying that the whole 719 00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:56,100 the whole world of economics has been overturned because a big 720 00:38:56,100 --> 00:38:57,700 fine. She said, yes, and stuff like 721 00:38:57,700 --> 00:38:59,600 that. So I'm not saying all these are 722 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,900 just like her but I think that there is a bit of Wishful 723 00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:07,500 Thinking then kind of Pervades this community, maybe that will 724 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:09,700 change and maybe my sample size is way too small. 725 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,100 Today's Show is brought to you by our friends at shape-shift 726 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,700 shape-shift is the fast and easy way to trade all coins. 727 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,800 And if you've been to their website lately, you've seen 728 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,900 that, they now support gems, swarm, storage coin and master 729 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:24,300 coin. So you want to try some 730 00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:26,800 altcoins, you want to use exchange to do that. 731 00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,100 He still has a fax machine. Of course not. 732 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,300 When you want to try some old coins, you go to shape-shift on 733 00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:33,800 iO and get it done in less than one minute with no account or 734 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,500 sign up required. Okay, so is there here's how it 735 00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:38,100 works. Yeah, there was a shape-shifter 736 00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:41,400 diode is used to currency when a cell and the Surrounded by, 737 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,900 let's say you want to sell some of it those points because 738 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,200 they're no longer cool, and you want to get some gems which you 739 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,900 just saw this supporting. So then they give you an address 740 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:53,800 to send in those ruins there. And you give me your your gems 741 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,900 address and they put the shapes of conversion for you and put 742 00:39:56,900 --> 00:39:59,800 some directly into your wallet, super easy, super smooth. 743 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,400 And by the way, if you have a website you need to check out 744 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,100 there Shifty button. So the shift button, basically 745 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,900 you can put it on the website and it allows people to To 746 00:40:10,908 --> 00:40:14,400 donate a page you in any old coins and you just receive 747 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,700 Bitcoin. It's super smooth and we use 748 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:19,400 that on our website. So you can give us all the 749 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,000 points of all kinds of currencies and we just get 750 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,500 Bitcoin. We don't have to worry about 751 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:28,500 like having 27 different words on our phone and laptops, and 752 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,800 have a whole bedrooms full of paper wallets because who would 753 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,200 want that? So, ahead over the shapeshifters 754 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,300 I/O and start trading small quantity and we would like to 755 00:40:37,308 --> 00:40:39,500 thank them for their support of epicenter, Bitcoin. 756 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,800 Now if we look sort of the startup space, are you seeing or 757 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,200 should we expect as so? For instance, if Bitcoin doesn't 758 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,400 work out or if we see the price stagnating over the next 70 759 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,400 year, for instance, can we expect to see more startup movie 760 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:01,300 into the sort of level 2 territory into the token 761 00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:05,600 agnostics type startups where Bitcoin is not at the like sort 762 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,500 of the center of attention. I think you'll have an easier 763 00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:12,800 way. I again once you start talking 764 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,600 to financial institutions that have been destroyed like that's 765 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,700 a prediction. I got a 2014 is the year, the 766 00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:21,000 banks are district 2015 of years since banks have been destroyed. 767 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:23,000 Well you ask why? And then you start talking to 768 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,900 Banks signing out. Hey what do you actual business 769 00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:26,600 needs? What and what are the what are 770 00:41:26,607 --> 00:41:29,100 the reasons you haven't been killed by and we were killed by 771 00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,400 Bit Coin yet and you start seeing, you know, hey, maybe 772 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,300 there's some solutions. I can provide some problems but 773 00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:37,000 maybe not, maybe none of this technology is actually 774 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,900 applicable to them. We certainly haven't seen any 775 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,700 large production scale, companies have done that even 776 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:46,100 though you know obviously I'm hoping you're betting on. 777 00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:49,700 If you will with my advising time, some of these companies do 778 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:53,900 pan out but it didn't today. You know, there's specific 779 00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:55,500 business needs that. These companies have 780 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,300 organizations have that need to be fulfilled. 781 00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:00,800 Are you able to build an actual product for that? 782 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,400 And it, you know, sometimes there's a token that might be 783 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,500 you sometimes it won't be. Sometimes it may be big. 784 00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:07,900 My I have doubts about necessarily just be big point. 785 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,800 It's a whole nother conversation though. 786 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,500 It's so as far as startups moving into space since I wrote 787 00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:15,700 that report looked at eight different companies, I've 788 00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:19,200 probably come across another eight nine, maybe ten startups 789 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,400 and of receive some seed funding at some level have at least some 790 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,700 relatively competent developers and then come on my radar that 791 00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:30,800 are trying to build products. So that's I suspected that will 792 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,600 continue going on for as long as there's both capital. 793 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,900 And there's actual like meetings with financial institutions, 794 00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:38,800 whether the willing to have that Dialogue. 795 00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:41,800 So what's interesting there is the you know these companies 796 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,700 have these business needs, okay? Once a criticism of I said the 797 00:42:46,707 --> 00:42:49,300 best coin space in general is that it's trying to find a 798 00:42:49,308 --> 00:42:51,900 problem to solve that isn't necessarily there. 799 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,400 Well I one area that I think really needs to be solved is the 800 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,400 micro payments area? Like I really think that they're 801 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,200 there can be a needs to be some really serious Innovation there 802 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,000 and it can benefit a whole lot of interest Industries like 803 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,900 whether it be paying payments For content, for instance, or 804 00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:12,000 you know, like paying for Wi-Fi, little things like that. 805 00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:18,500 What are your opinions? Like the biggest areas in which 806 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:22,400 there can be Innovation using these types of Technologies. 807 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:26,100 Okay. So I can't speak for all of them 808 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,000 because I feared a million different use cases the last 809 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,300 year. I'm sure I'm sure everyone's at 810 00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:33,700 this point heard and scattershot of all these different use cases 811 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:36,400 that are potentially use cases the Civil, we were the the 812 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,300 group's I'm talking to primarily looking Back Office Solutions 813 00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:43,300 like they have enormous costs. Deutsche Bank did a study and 814 00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:47,300 found the as a sector the banking sphere in the financial 815 00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,100 industry spends about twice as much of it was like seven point 816 00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:56,200 three percent on I.T costs. Relative 7.3 percent relative to 817 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,900 their overall costs compared to other sectors to do like three 818 00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:01,600 point seven or something to that effect. 819 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,400 So they're spending enormous on I.T costs. 820 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,000 Why? Well number one you have to do a 821 00:44:06,008 --> 00:44:11,400 lot of reporting now and since 2008 to being compliant. 822 00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:14,300 You need to be very transparent. So is there a way to reduce 823 00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:17,200 these costs centers? There are several banks that 824 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,800 spend well, over 45 billion dollars a year on operating 825 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,700 expenses and much as that's it related. 826 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:26,000 So you have all these Acquisitions took place in the 827 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,200 last seven years. The, it's the systems that don't 828 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,000 interoperate is there a way that you can reduce those costs with 829 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,500 these different Ledger's, that provide, not only settlement 830 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:37,500 finality, but transparency, provide the report reporting 831 00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:39,000 requirement. Fulfill the reporting 832 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,000 requirements and so on, you know what I mean? 833 00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:42,700 I mean, maybe I should rephrase my question. 834 00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:46,000 What I meant to say is, is so consumer-facing. 835 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,600 We're so like, for instance, micropayments can be used by 836 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,200 consumers and, you know, there could be some great benefits. 837 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,300 There were some of the areas of innovation because I think 838 00:44:56,300 --> 00:45:00,300 that's where a lot of the Bitcoin startups are trying to 839 00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,600 focus on trying to find like these consumer-facing 840 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,800 innovations that can benefit people but the nurse not finding 841 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,500 them. Where do you think those those? 842 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,900 Yeah. It becomes a but with Bitcoins 843 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:12,200 thing like there's a website called but with Bitcoins.com 844 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,200 it's great like basically that's what's happened with these 845 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,900 consumer facing products. I wish them luck. 846 00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:18,200 Good luck. But Micro payments isn't a new 847 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,900 thing like that was trikes, 15. 16 years ago. 848 00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:24,200 In the.com bubble, there was many different company or not 849 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,800 many, there was at least a good handful flus and beans were two 850 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,500 of the ones that off the top of my head to try to do that. 851 00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:34,700 So you if the end of the day it comes back to you know, what are 852 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:36,000 the frictions involved with that? 853 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,900 Well, number one, obviously of interchange fees. 854 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:42,200 But it's not do that for. Look at that for just a moment. 855 00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:45,700 But instead, look at the frictions for the mental issues, 856 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:48,300 of people wanting to go in and out having to calculate this, 857 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,100 Nick Szabo wrote a paper on. This clay shirky wrote a paper. 858 00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:53,500 This is 15 years ago. They wrote different articles 859 00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:55,900 saying, what is the mental cost of calculation, or the mental 860 00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:59,700 calculation cost of going through a nickel and diming 861 00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:02,200 yourself, effectively on these different costs. 862 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,500 So I'm not saying that, there isn't a case, the I see people 863 00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:07,200 talking about preventing spam but for most people spams on a 864 00:46:07,207 --> 00:46:10,400 big issue for Most people not wanting to buy an ad is an issue 865 00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:12,600 that modeling by content. We already have 866 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,000 microtransactions in the form of ads, like, Google is basically a 867 00:46:16,008 --> 00:46:19,600 micro transaction engine, credit cards are micro loans. 868 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,600 If you will, although you have those interchange fees and that 869 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,600 I know people like, oh, that's 35 percent. 870 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,900 Well, it's in the day you probably have to spend at least 871 00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:28,700 35 cents for a Bitcoin transaction. 872 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,700 Once once you have different things, play out such as the 873 00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,500 block toward having and and so forth. 874 00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,900 So I don't think Bitcoin on chain microtransactions are a 875 00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:42,200 Golden silver bullet, you know, consumer facing solution, maybe 876 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,300 it is. But I haven't seen any good math 877 00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:48,200 on it that this is sustainable. And there's already plenty of 878 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,400 Angel list listed companies. Like, if listeners are 879 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,100 interested as a website called Angel list you go there and you 880 00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:56,900 put your start up there and, you know, payment startups is over 881 00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:00,700 1600 and mobile payments is like, just around 1000. 882 00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:03,600 So, even Norma's amount of competition that's coming in. 883 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,400 That has nothing at all to do with a blockchain, maybe block 884 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:07,800 change the solution, maybe it's not. 885 00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:10,900 But It did in the day, you could be a, you know, it'll be an 886 00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:13,900 execution race, it'll be a customer acquisition race, 887 00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:16,100 there's a number of different variables. 888 00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:20,400 And in one thing that's not being recognized is, is groups 889 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,000 like Facebook and even Ali Baba. They're getting money, 890 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,800 transmitter licenses to be able to provide, you know, basically 891 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,600 person-to-person peer-to-peer transactions for almost, no 892 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,800 cost. Obviously onboarding requires a 893 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,100 bank account so that doesn't help people that are unbanked 894 00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:36,900 and underbanked but I don't think Bitcoin does either 895 00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:39,200 because you know people Well, that are unbanked and unbanked 896 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,900 or underbanked they don't have access to cheap energy. 897 00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:44,100 So they're not competitive mining so they can't claims that 898 00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:45,800 way. And number two, you know, many 899 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,300 of these VC funded exchanges globally, different Emerging 900 00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:51,200 Markets. You need to have some kind of 901 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,500 vetting process that they require vetting process through 902 00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:57,300 kyc a melt all C's. So in that process, you end up 903 00:47:57,300 --> 00:47:59,000 having to need a bank account in those countries, but those 904 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,000 people don't have Banks and bank accounts to begin with, to get 905 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,700 on top of these platforms. So I don't think that Bitcoin is 906 00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:07,800 a solution for micropayments and maybe, not even for some of this 907 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,100 in Final payments up, but obviously, I could be wrong. 908 00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:14,900 I know a line, Commerce did X and coins at pH. 909 00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:16,800 They've all claim to have a bit of traction. 910 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,400 Even online Commerce. I was talking with one of the 911 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,700 team members and based on the numbers actually sounded like 912 00:48:22,707 --> 00:48:24,300 they were doing more volume than Ali pay. 913 00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:28,300 Sorry, bitpay, although bit pays been stagnant for over a year 914 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:30,800 now I think it's like 12 15, hundred big ones so maybe maybe 915 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,100 some of you heard of it beat Bigfoot bitpay right now. 916 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,100 But still I think that until more people publish numbers in 917 00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:39,400 the actual math and Like the round trips and stuff like that. 918 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,700 I think that we should be skeptical of gigantic claims, 919 00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:49,000 without any evidence. Yeah, I mean, I think, obviously 920 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,000 with Bitcoin, but there has been this big bad that so far, hasn't 921 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,100 panned out in May in different areas and I guess it's hard to 922 00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:00,100 predict one of the things that sort of strike me about what 923 00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:02,800 you're talking about. Now, I was recently at an event 924 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,700 and something similar came up and the guy was they make me 925 00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,800 point. It was like, but If Bitcoin 926 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,500 doesn't, you know, if because doesn't work out, if that's not 927 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:14,800 the focus on, I mean, there are all these other people doing 928 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,400 this new things, but then it's like selling it2 selling 929 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,900 software to the, IT staff of a bank. 930 00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:27,200 But it's not doesn't have to same revolutionary excitement 931 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,200 with it. But what do you think, what you 932 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,200 think of the scope of this? Do you think these permission 933 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:38,400 Ledger's stuff in a sort of an optimal case would like Lee 934 00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:43,600 fundamentally change things or is this just like I've heard 935 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,600 sometimes the comparison like better database technology 936 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,500 which, you know, maybe it maybe one could build some significant 937 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:55,100 businesses but it's not exactly you know, doesn't exactly get 938 00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:59,100 people excited or make documentaries about it or God 939 00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:00,600 knows what? Yeah, sure. 940 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,400 So Michael Casey Wall Street Journal and a call with him a 941 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,900 couple months ago and he's like, oh it's not utopian though like 942 00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:08,900 where's the utopianism too? And so, yeah, it did. 943 00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:11,100 The day, you know, everyone has their reasons for why they were 944 00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:14,600 in this space and it seems to be a at least we. 945 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,900 This is there's no argument that a lot of it originally was 946 00:50:16,900 --> 00:50:19,700 politically motivated. So if you're politically 947 00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:23,100 motivated, and you're certainly not like the JAMA tonus is of 948 00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:24,500 the world of the Roger of Errors of the world. 949 00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:29,300 They want to you know not have to deal with these kind of 950 00:50:29,308 --> 00:50:31,300 trusted third parties that did exist today. 951 00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:36,200 But the question is is is that actually going to play out like 952 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,100 our laws going to Appear are human institutions going to 953 00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:42,700 disappear because of a Bitcoin like blockchain or Bitcoin 954 00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:46,700 itself and I'm skeptical that just because it does not help 955 00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:49,400 people, people aren't cypherpunks like in general like 956 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,500 we could do lots of surveys to figure out what is it? 957 00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:54,900 The normal populist like that. You're actually trying to sell 958 00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:57,500 this Tech to and they don't want to have to go through 47 959 00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:00,000 different ways here, the private wallets, they don't want have to 960 00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,900 their keys, they don't have the epoxy, their laptops, or spend, 961 00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:07,400 you know, 37 hours looking at YouTube videos on how to, you 962 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,900 know, do the Different steps to to get away. 963 00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:11,500 Or they said it towards like that. 964 00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:14,000 It's a lot of friction, JP Connick. 965 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,100 He just wrote an article. If you guys aren't familiar, 966 00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:19,700 he's the one who first wrote, the FED coin article many months 967 00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:22,100 ago, and he just wrote an article a couple days ago on, 968 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:26,900 like, why has, why has the consumer adoption of for retail 969 00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:28,600 payments? Just not taken off and he 970 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,600 actually cited some of the stuff I did on bitpay. 971 00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:33,500 Some of the numbers there, but the general idea is you have 972 00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:37,000 these frictions, which one's work requires, which one 973 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,700 requires more hoops, Go through using a simple credit or debit 974 00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:43,800 card in a developed country or going through all the Hoops, to 975 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,500 get a Bitcoin and spend it and based on, you know, his thought 976 00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:49,300 process and his experiment or thought. 977 00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:52,700 Experiment is look, you just have to its mental gymnastics. 978 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,000 I have to go through all these different, all these different 979 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,700 Hoops to get to bitcoin to sell it for another National growth. 980 00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:59,500 Effectively, sell it for another National currency. 981 00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:02,000 Why don't you just keep your dollars and spend those dollars 982 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,500 through these micro loans, through credit cards and so 983 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:06,300 forth. This is not to defend the 984 00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:09,100 incumbents or the status quo and you And the greatest, it's there 985 00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:12,600 was no margin to reduce cost of reduced and consumers. 986 00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:15,200 It's an additional benefits. But if you're not providing 987 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,200 those benefits, upfront and visibly to Consumers. 988 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,500 Why are they going to adopt it and so far that value 989 00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:23,800 proposition from payment processors hasn't hasn't Arisen 990 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,200 so maybe that'll change but let's look at the facts just 991 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,100 over a year ago about 18 months ago there was you know just just 992 00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:33,700 under around 20,000 Merchants it accepted Bitcoin today there's 993 00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:37,700 over 100,000 and during that time so you had a queen tickling 994 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,800 Of actual users or Merchants accepting it, but you haven't 995 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,700 had a Content bullying of users actually going through and 996 00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:45,100 spending submitting these points. 997 00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,700 And it goes multiple reasons. Number one, the frictions and 998 00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:50,700 the hoops and summer to the the fact is that most of these 999 00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:53,900 people who own Bitcoin own it for an investment for 1000 00:52:53,900 --> 00:52:55,800 speculative purposes, that's perfectly fine. 1001 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,500 But their time Horizons are different to the fact that they 1002 00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:02,100 think the future utilities greater than the current utility 1003 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,100 and that's totally irrational understandable. 1004 00:53:04,300 --> 00:53:06,800 But as a result, all these companies that are betting on 1005 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,300 you know, transactional Just these payment processor. 1006 00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:13,300 It's they're going to be left on left high and dry as I say. 1007 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:19,400 So yeah I think that wanting to disintermediate intermediaries 1008 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,700 at find. I have your own philosophy in 1009 00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:23,100 the day. What's actually going to 1010 00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:24,800 actually happen? Not just what you want to 1011 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,900 happen. Yeah, I mean, that's true, I 1012 00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:31,500 threw this. What I said, I feel that once 1013 00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:36,100 you sort of take out the ideological, okay, libertarian 1014 00:53:36,100 --> 00:53:39,700 ideas, which are Not everybody's political leanings. 1015 00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:45,100 Especially I mean, specifically not mine, then you're left with. 1016 00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:47,200 Okay? Then what's the point? 1017 00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:53,500 Yeah, but I mean, I'm gonna have to disagree here and I think 1018 00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:57,100 there is something to be said here. 1019 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:03,400 Well, that there's just one case that I think only Bitcoin can do 1020 00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:07,800 and that is potentially massive and that's simply the idea. 1021 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,100 Having like a Global Currency that you can sort of hold 1022 00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:13,400 anywhere in the world. You know, you can travel pay 1023 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,200 with that, you, it's an alternate it's a better gold, 1024 00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,000 right? It says a store of value that, 1025 00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:24,400 you know, you can rely on and that's like finite and, you 1026 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,400 know, you can send anywhere you can transport across borders 1027 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,500 without being confiscated. And, you know, you can transmit 1028 00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:36,700 it to the globally and that's I think, is a huge potential use 1029 00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:39,800 case and I I think that's it's really compelling. 1030 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,700 And I think also the thing is here, Bitcoin may all have all 1031 00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:49,400 these flaws, but for this use case, the key thing is trust, 1032 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:50,900 right? The key thing is, you need to 1033 00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:53,400 believe that it will actually still be around. 1034 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:54,900 In 10 years. It will be secure. 1035 00:54:55,300 --> 00:54:59,200 It will have its value. And so if Bitcoin Fails Like, if 1036 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,900 some other guy comes with a better cryptocurrency like 1037 00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:06,100 ether, maybe maybe with proof of stake, will be perfectly secure 1038 00:55:06,100 --> 00:55:08,600 and scalable and cheap. Tetra. 1039 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,900 But it will be I think almost impossible to take that place of 1040 00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:15,700 Bitcoin applicant has today because people will be like I'll 1041 00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:18,400 but the first thing failed. Why would I believe in the 1042 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,800 second thing? That's not to say that big could 1043 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:22,500 will succeed. It may not write. 1044 00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:25,900 So I mean we've often talked about some of the security 1045 00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:29,800 issues with Bitcoin but it at least has that shot. 1046 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,900 That something really big and I don't think that's necessarily 1047 00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:38,200 so political it's partially political but I think There's a 1048 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:43,800 real real strong utility there. I think that if in my personal 1049 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:48,700 opinion, if if I have the choice between Bitcoin and its current 1050 00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:55,000 condition and something more similar to a Fed coin, and I 1051 00:55:55,008 --> 00:55:57,600 mean, that's a terrible name. I like it would never use 1052 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:02,400 anything called fed going, but the what's common between the 1053 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,700 two and what I think is really valuable. 1054 00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:07,800 It's just the ease of use and like that's that's four. 1055 00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:10,900 See what I find is most valuable with Bitcoin is being able to 1056 00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:13,000 use across borders, like, pay people like that. 1057 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,700 That's like, that just blows me away and blows people away when 1058 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,600 when you first show them. So, I think that if I had a 1059 00:56:19,607 --> 00:56:26,200 choice between 22 and made some mental gymnastics to say, okay, 1060 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,100 well, I'm going to like trust this government currency which I 1061 00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:31,600 do. I mean, we all use government 1062 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,700 currencies every day. I'm probably would pick the 1063 00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:39,200 government currency. Yeah, but I think What's is also 1064 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:44,200 blow stomping that sort of blows me away to is the idea of a 1065 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:50,600 global decentralized, you know, peer-to-peer store of value and 1066 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,000 medium of exchange. That's just I think that's a 1067 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,400 mind-blowing thing. But nobody uses a museum 1068 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,800 exchange. Like we I think the between us 1069 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,400 three, we probably know everyone who actually spends Bitcoins 1070 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,200 like Theory like what's the transaction of volume on a given 1071 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,700 day of gold, like who are the wealthiest gold owners? 1072 00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:10,600 Well, like these are these are questions like the end of the 1073 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,700 day, you know, if it's supposed to be virtual cash, like that's 1074 00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:16,800 what that's what the abstract and section. 1 are talking 1075 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,100 about, like, let's create, you know, an actual e-cash, digital 1076 00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:22,200 cash. Some kind of some kind of method 1077 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,000 for actual payments. Payments is actually, I forgot 1078 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,100 how many times was used, it was used multiple times throughout 1079 00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:30,000 the paper was like 11 times a week, so like that whoever 1080 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,000 created bitcoin, had this view, that it could do, all these 1081 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,200 different things. But in practice, it's not being 1082 00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,100 used for those things because people have different time 1083 00:57:37,100 --> 00:57:38,800 Horizons. Dances and so forth. 1084 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,400 So maybe you're right. Maybe it could be used for this 1085 00:57:41,700 --> 00:57:45,400 all in one Global Currency, but there's no reason why it has to 1086 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,400 be Bitcoin itself. I mean, maybe it is, I mean, I 1087 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,900 agree with you actually add for as for payments are huge issues 1088 00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:53,900 with it, right. The volatility is a huge issue 1089 00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:57,400 for payment and then just that it's another currency it's a 1090 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:58,700 huge victory for payments, right? 1091 00:57:58,700 --> 00:58:02,800 Like if you don't you don't want as a company to have like more 1092 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:04,900 currencies on your accounts and you need it. 1093 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,100 But that's something different from I mean even one of the use 1094 00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:13,500 cases that thing is you just like tax evasion for example in 1095 00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:17,500 the future and things like that, you know, and and evading 1096 00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:23,600 Capital controls like these are both huge use cases and I think 1097 00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,700 they're very compelling now whether one likes him or not 1098 00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:30,700 whether it's where people are attracted to that or not. 1099 00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:34,500 But I think it's those are just obvious and big use cases. 1100 00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:38,500 Right there, they already use cases. 1101 00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:40,600 But the question is, how many people actually want to do that 1102 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,000 and how many people are going to find you? 1103 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,700 I'm sure groups. You know, a lot of slack and 1104 00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:46,300 comment saying oh Tim you're defending the state's, like look 1105 00:58:46,300 --> 00:58:47,300 at, this is. Look at it from a pack. 1106 00:58:47,300 --> 00:58:49,400 I think we're gonna get a lot of slack and comments for this 1107 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,000 whole. So like so coinbase. 1108 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,900 They might as well go ahead there, their pitch deck leak 1109 00:58:54,900 --> 00:58:57,100 their September. Pick stick week to the Press 1110 00:58:57,300 --> 00:58:59,100 Free. Beacon did a couple articles on 1111 00:58:59,100 --> 00:59:02,300 it, basically, like on slide two and they posted this slide. 1112 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,900 It said you can use Bitcoins. You big capital. 1113 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,000 Rolls on sanctions on Russia. And then like a page later they 1114 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,800 had different and emblems of the different, like New York 1115 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,200 Department, Department of Financial Services us since in 1116 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:15,900 all these different organizations, they say that 1117 00:59:15,900 --> 00:59:18,800 they're in compliant talks with so, but they got slapped 1118 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:20,900 claimed, he's got slapped because it's saying, hey, you 1119 00:59:20,900 --> 00:59:24,000 know what you're talking about. Being a legitimate regulated 1120 00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:26,800 entity yet. Here you are saying, you're one 1121 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,500 of the features is it could get around sanctions. 1122 00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:30,200 We know this. We know that it can be used for 1123 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,300 money laundering, like, I got cheated by an attorney this last 1124 00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:36,400 week. Because I was quoted in article 1125 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,300 very early this week. Mark, karpeles, wrote this 1126 00:59:38,300 --> 00:59:40,600 article saying no talking about exchanges. 1127 00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,500 And mention how, you know, all points to be used for money. 1128 00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:44,500 Laundering. And somebody asked for those, 1129 00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:45,800 this reporter asked me for comment. 1130 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,200 And I said, yes, you can use all coins for money laundering like 1131 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,000 coins. Probably, the biggest use case 1132 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,100 for Litecoin right now is probably for money laundering. 1133 00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,700 And the lawyer got upset because I mentioned that without saying 1134 00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:58,200 any statistics like look I used to do some stuff with an 1135 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,400 exchange, you know melodic and you start talking to other 1136 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,600 exchanges and you find out, you know, what are the different 1137 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,400 altcoins being used for? Or and yeah, they're being used 1138 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,600 basically ends up happening, is people take their Bitcoin, they 1139 01:00:08,607 --> 01:00:10,400 convert it to Litecoin, like on btc-e. 1140 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,700 They send it to like, shape shift or cripsy or something 1141 01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:14,900 like that. They re convert it to bitcoin 1142 01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:17,000 the cash out somehow, or they convert it to another coin. 1143 01:00:17,100 --> 01:00:20,000 So it's, you need to use. If you're doing this, you have 1144 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,900 to use something that's highly liquid. 1145 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,700 And it's, there's enough volume in any given day, especially on 1146 01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:28,300 chain that yours just shows up as noise. 1147 01:00:28,300 --> 01:00:30,800 It can't be detected again. I'm not encouraging that. 1148 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,700 In fact, I think that by you promoting that is a use case, 1149 01:00:34,700 --> 01:00:38,000 you Create a bigger Target and you can pickling the community. 1150 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,300 So small, they expect accepting thinking that they could absorb. 1151 01:00:42,300 --> 01:00:45,300 The gigantic finds that HSBC or Barclays or any of these other 1152 01:00:45,300 --> 01:00:47,600 guys is that they all pay, like billion dollar fines for this 1153 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,400 kind of stuff, and sometimes even some people sort of kind of 1154 01:00:50,408 --> 01:00:52,400 sentences. It's like this so encouraging 1155 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,600 that I think is I understand it is a use case and people do use 1156 01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:57,700 it for that. I'm not sure. 1157 01:00:57,700 --> 01:00:59,000 That's something you should go out and sell. 1158 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:04,000 So, like normal people because maybe one more people just know, 1159 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,700 but I didn't know that. That was specifically 1160 01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:09,500 identifiable. Use case of like Point. 1161 01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:12,500 Yeah. That's I mean, I always felt 1162 01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:16,900 like when I dabbed that no use cases but I guess that's right. 1163 01:01:16,900 --> 01:01:22,200 Maybe one. So let's talk a little bit about 1164 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,100 NASDAQ because recently there is a new story and it got a lot of 1165 01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:29,500 attention that NASDAQ is planning to have some sort of 1166 01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:33,700 stock trading on the Bitcoin blockchain specifically using 1167 01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:38,500 open assets. To call which is colored coins. 1168 01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:43,300 Basically we've had flown via of coin prism on the show, who is 1169 01:01:43,300 --> 01:01:47,400 the guy who created the open assets protocol that seems to? 1170 01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:50,400 That seems to go against your argument. 1171 01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,300 That it makes no sense use the Bitcoin protocol for things like 1172 01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:57,300 that. What's your point of view here? 1173 01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:59,900 Sure sure. That's a really good point real 1174 01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:04,800 quick question to so it last month was that are interested 1175 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,000 in. NASDAQ announced that they're 1176 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,100 going to be throwing some of their private. 1177 01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,400 They have a several different markets and could put some of 1178 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,400 their private Market guess cap tables on on the Bitcoin 1179 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,800 blockchain using it looks like coin prism or at least open 1180 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,000 assets. I'm not sure if they're actually 1181 01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:23,200 going to talk with the company but yeah so there's two things 1182 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,000 here. Number one it's unclear what 1183 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,500 that actually means are they actually going to do? 1184 01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:30,300 It's a hash of all the transactions and put it on the 1185 01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:33,600 Bitcoin blockchain every day, every hour, every minute, you 1186 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:34,900 know, what are they trying to actually? 1187 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,300 Accomplish with it. That's not fully clear yet. 1188 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,400 The second thing is, if they actually try to put all the 1189 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,000 transactions that take place to treating transactions, obviously 1190 01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:45,800 this from a logistics standpoint that does this won't happen 1191 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,000 because we know from block sizes, that as of today, you 1192 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,300 know, just the blocks are just not big enough to handle that 1193 01:02:53,300 --> 01:02:56,300 kind of volume, maybe, at some point, they'll be solutions for 1194 01:02:56,300 --> 01:02:57,600 that. Obviously, you know, Gavin, and 1195 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,600 we can talk about that at the end, but Gavin's proposal and 1196 01:03:00,700 --> 01:03:02,900 some counter proposals and stuff like that if you'd like. 1197 01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,200 But, yeah, I think that fundamentally anytime That 1198 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:09,000 Watermark coin on a public Ledger using a private chain or 1199 01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:10,500 quasi private chain. I think it's a different thing. 1200 01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:13,300 But anyways I'll me and I public Ledger like Bitcoin. 1201 01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:17,100 It creates this top-heavy protocol, basically you're 1202 01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:20,100 cheating your your free writing off of everybody else. 1203 01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:24,900 Paying some kind of fee for what is nominally is you're creating 1204 01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:28,700 extra value on the edges that's being protected by not enough 1205 01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:31,700 value being destroyed. So, miners in the long run, as 1206 01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:36,400 we've talked about destroy the Capital up to the point where, 1207 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,800 you know, a Bitcoin equals at creating a Bitcoin equals of a 1208 01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,600 coin in the long run. Obviously there's margins and 1209 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,800 there's fluctuations so forth. But in theory, that's what kind 1210 01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,300 of actually practice it actually kind of is what kind of happens 1211 01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:49,700 when you get price run up. So it goes up and when prices go 1212 01:03:49,700 --> 01:03:51,300 down, people go bankrupt and so forth. 1213 01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,600 But it with color coins in these metal coins, is they create this 1214 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,700 top-heavy non-proportional disproportional reward 1215 01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:03,100 mechanisms where pools or minors at these Farms are not 1216 01:04:03,100 --> 01:04:06,100 destroying enough Capital to Act, you know, whatever, 1217 01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:08,900 billions of dollars of assets that the actual assets represent 1218 01:04:08,900 --> 01:04:11,100 from NASDAQ again. I don't know the specifics. 1219 01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:14,000 I think it's a little too sweet to be a little to speculate at 1220 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,400 this point, but I think that if they do, you know more power to 1221 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,000 them, they'll do trial by fire and maybe just like Patrick 1222 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:22,100 Byrne, who announces that? You do? 1223 01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:25,800 Like a 25 million-dollar bond in the coming weeks and maybe even 1224 01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,600 tomorrow or that they'll find out. 1225 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,600 Maybe even the hard way that the transactions don't go through, 1226 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,800 is they thought because there's no, there's no priority system. 1227 01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:38,600 Because there's no terms of service built into the network. 1228 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,300 Maybe you could have, you know, one-on-one relationships with 1229 01:04:41,300 --> 01:04:43,000 the pools. But if you're using the pools to 1230 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,200 do that, why don't you just create one of these permission 1231 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,400 Ledger's systems? Why use proof of work at all? 1232 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,900 So, you know, I wish them all good luck and maybe they will 1233 01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:54,100 completely disprove everything I've ever said that's a total 1234 01:04:54,100 --> 01:04:56,900 possibility. I think that Robert Sam's is 1235 01:04:56,900 --> 01:04:58,600 probably correct. Like why? 1236 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,800 Why bother validating, you know, on either side of the 1237 01:05:01,808 --> 01:05:04,800 transactions and not the validators who cannot protect 1238 01:05:04,900 --> 01:05:08,100 It's you against irreversibility if there's incentive to do so. 1239 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,800 So let's before we wrap up here, I know this is come up again and 1240 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,900 again, and again in the show and people are probably getting 1241 01:05:17,900 --> 01:05:19,800 tired of hear about it. But what's your opinion on the 1242 01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:21,600 Block size? Increase the bait. 1243 01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:24,800 Sure. So I have no horses in the race 1244 01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,400 again. Just full disclosure, I don't 1245 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,200 own any questions at this at this time. 1246 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,200 And that's not because I hate them or anything. 1247 01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,700 I just, I just don't. Um, so I don't think I like to 1248 01:05:33,700 --> 01:05:35,600 think that I'm fairly objective when it comes to that, 1249 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,000 obviously, people disagree. And think I'm very unobjective 1250 01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:39,500 for not owning lots of Bitcoins or something. 1251 01:05:39,700 --> 01:05:44,600 But I think this is the both sides have had some pretty good 1252 01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,800 points, obviously gathered and Mike who you guys have spoken 1253 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:54,400 to, they seem to really want to make Bitcoin become a large like 1254 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,300 they want it to be more successful with payments. 1255 01:05:56,300 --> 01:05:59,100 They want the ability for it to compete. 1256 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,500 Did some scale relative to I guess? 1257 01:06:02,500 --> 01:06:05,700 PayPal or even Visa even though those aren't necessarily the 1258 01:06:05,700 --> 01:06:08,600 best direct comparisons. But there's a trade-off. 1259 01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,600 There's a cost to making bigger blocks and I was just talking to 1260 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,200 Brian before the show about this is, if you 20 make block and you 1261 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,500 fill it up and you need to do that your own node at home. 1262 01:06:18,500 --> 01:06:21,600 You end up with like a terabyte of data throughout the year and 1263 01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,100 if you do that, you know, if you need to connect with 8 10, 12, 1264 01:06:24,100 --> 01:06:26,400 whatever the amount of nodes, your peers are that you're 1265 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,500 trying to send us this adds up, you just multiply it, right? 1266 01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:32,600 So you know, there is a possibility that from a hardware 1267 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,000 and even networks standpoint that there could be a lot of 1268 01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:36,200 notes. But in practice what ends up 1269 01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,900 happening is what we've seen, you know, from March 2014 to 1270 01:06:39,900 --> 01:06:42,500 today, March, B14, that was about thirteen thousand nodes. 1271 01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:45,800 Today, there's this under 6,000 and that's not even, you know, 1272 01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,800 full one block notes. So somewhat one big block node 1273 01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,100 so maybe maybe that Trend continues, maybe changes but 1274 01:06:52,100 --> 01:06:54,700 it's into the day. I think the other the other side 1275 01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:57,600 of the argument there's to right or from races and privacy. 1276 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,600 If blocks be get bigger fewer, there could be fewer nodes 1277 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,700 because there's no incentive necessarily run it it's out of 1278 01:07:03,707 --> 01:07:06,100 your own pocket. If that's the case then it 1279 01:07:06,100 --> 01:07:08,700 becomes much easier to identify transactions especially if 1280 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:10,400 you're trying to do my laundry. I like it. 1281 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,700 End of the day, you know, these various companies that are doing 1282 01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:15,200 Contracting Services for governments for money laundry. 1283 01:07:15,300 --> 01:07:17,500 They could end up representing, you know, five ten, fifteen 1284 01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:20,100 percent of the network and makes it much more identify easily 1285 01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:22,900 identifiable. So if you're concerned about 1286 01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:25,500 privacy, then maybe that's something to take into 1287 01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:29,200 consideration that bigger blocks, make it difficult to run 1288 01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,600 nodes, therefore, reducing them notes, making it much more easy 1289 01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,000 to identify transaction. Potentially the other side also, 1290 01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,300 says, is what the, a lot of the Chinese exchanges in miners. 1291 01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:43,500 Have been talking about the last L, so is saying, hey guys, we 1292 01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:45,800 understand, you want bigger blocks, but we just don't have 1293 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,200 the network to do that. Now, there's, there's two sides 1294 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,600 to that you have F to pool. One of the administrators from 1295 01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:53,700 active pool proton. The devil is saying, hey guys, 1296 01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,000 we, you know, we'd like to have a bigger block but not, you 1297 01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,900 know, 20, Mega or something like that because we just don't have 1298 01:07:59,900 --> 01:08:02,900 the network capacity to propagate it because it will 1299 01:08:02,900 --> 01:08:06,000 leads orphan races. I know if you maybe get on the 1300 01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,000 show, if you will, you can find Avalon, says it ships. 1301 01:08:09,300 --> 01:08:12,200 I just talked to him last Week, two about Network, networking 1302 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:13,100 issues. He just a lot of network 1303 01:08:13,100 --> 01:08:15,000 analysis, now, especially for Chinese companies. 1304 01:08:15,300 --> 01:08:18,399 And he was talking about, you know, if these you have these 1305 01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:22,000 net splits in China, because the, the peering agreements 1306 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,600 between China and the rest of the world, kind of kind of Muddy 1307 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,899 right now because of how the great firewall of China is. 1308 01:08:27,899 --> 01:08:31,100 And so what you could end up having is you for what you do 1309 01:08:31,100 --> 01:08:34,100 have is you have a Reliance on just a couple different nose in 1310 01:08:34,100 --> 01:08:36,100 a couple different cities which could go out. 1311 01:08:36,100 --> 01:08:38,200 So you end up with, you know, half of the network ashrae 1312 01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,399 coming out of just a few nodes and that's kind of dangerous. 1313 01:08:41,100 --> 01:08:44,000 Even today. So I'm expecting them to 1314 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,399 propagate, really big blocks is another issue. 1315 01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,500 He's actually trying to solve so maybe if you're looking for 1316 01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:51,600 somebody who really understands the the Chinese side understands 1317 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,700 network analysis and and Mining, and so forth, he threw could 1318 01:08:55,700 --> 01:08:59,800 probably be a good balanced approach to some answers there. 1319 01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:03,899 I think that there will be some kind of consensus if you will 1320 01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:06,800 but it could lead to a split. Maybe you have as I say gal 1321 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:09,700 blocks and maybe you have different other different chain, 1322 01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:12,000 a Chinese chain. And I certainly cannot predict 1323 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,300 that. But yeah, it'll be interesting 1324 01:09:14,300 --> 01:09:16,399 in 6-12 months. Coming back in and revisiting 1325 01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:17,800 that question. Yeah, absolutely. 1326 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,600 That's it interesting. Actually, we, I mean, we were 1327 01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,200 aware to some extent, I mean nothing. 1328 01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:26,100 Mike also mentioned that that especially, yeah, especially if 1329 01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:28,100 you have a really bad, really bad band. 1330 01:09:28,100 --> 01:09:31,500 If it can be an issue for minor 7 larger blocks but it was in 1331 01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:33,800 the way of some of the Solis especially that there's only. 1332 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:38,600 So few notes in China that plays such a central role there. 1333 01:09:40,700 --> 01:09:42,600 Yeah, well, thanks so much for coming on. 1334 01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:45,600 Dimmers are at the end of our show, we're going to have links 1335 01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:50,399 to your papers and your prolific blog posts in the show. 1336 01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:53,300 Notes of people who, you know, who want to learn more about 1337 01:09:53,300 --> 01:09:55,900 that can check it out. And I think I, the paper does a 1338 01:09:55,900 --> 01:09:59,600 really good job at sort of giving an overview. 1339 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:03,600 That's really accessible about the sort of different ways. 1340 01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:08,100 That block change, can be used and some of the use cases that 1341 01:10:08,100 --> 01:10:10,800 people often talk about but that may actually not make So much 1342 01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,200 sense for Bitcoin. So yeah, thanks for that. 1343 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:18,400 And thanks for coming on today. Hey my pleasure Hayden. 1344 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:21,900 Well, we'll see if if I've been able to kill Bitcoin as people 1345 01:10:21,900 --> 01:10:24,700 in mediclaim so I don't think I don't think I have the power to 1346 01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:27,800 do that so I don't I hope it continues to go on so we can 1347 01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:29,600 learn a lot. So you certainly keep trying. 1348 01:10:32,500 --> 01:10:34,900 There's a node running somewhere must be taken down. 1349 01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,300 So thanks a lot guys. Have a great week, cheers. 1350 01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,300 Yeah, and thanks for listeners for listening. 1351 01:10:42,300 --> 01:10:44,200 And we release episodes of represent a big con. 1352 01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:48,500 Every Monday, you can subscribe to it as an audio podcast on 1353 01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:51,800 iTunes or through your favorite podcast app or on Soundcloud, 1354 01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,700 you know, to get the video on YouTube or at youtube.com slash 1355 01:10:55,700 --> 01:10:59,900 epicenter PC and we're going to be back next week. 1356 01:10:59,900 --> 01:11:09,900 So until then, No. No.