1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,920 This is Epicenter Episode 508 with guests Stephen Young and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:20,040 Storm. Welcome to Epicenter, the show 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,640 which talks about technologies, projects, and people driving 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,800 decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,000 I'm Brian Farman Crane and today I'm Speaking of Stephen Young 6 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,600 and Storm. Steven is the CEO and cofounder 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,440 of Nifty Fi and Storm is Head of Business Development, Nifty Fi 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,840 is kind of the first NFT lending platform. 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,960 It's one of the leading and earliest projects in the NFT 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,440 finance space. So today we're going to talk 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,960 about NFTS and NFC finance and Nifty Fi and sort of like where 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,700 all those things are going. Really excited about this, 13 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:58,620 especially cuz I'm not very deep in NFT space. 14 00:00:58,620 --> 00:01:01,580 So I'm excited to learn more from geeks too. 15 00:01:01,580 --> 00:01:03,060 Yeah. So thanks so much for joining 16 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:05,500 us. Thanks for having us, Brian. 17 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:09,500 Excited to for you and your readers and your listeners in on 18 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:13,260 some of the happenings in NFTS. Even though we're kind of in the 19 00:01:13,260 --> 00:01:16,940 depths of the Bay markets, we're all still pretty bullish on this 20 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:18,780 side. Absolutely. 21 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:20,700 Thanks for having us, Brian. Very excited to chat. 22 00:01:21,390 --> 00:01:23,710 Cool. Maybe you can just start off if 23 00:01:23,710 --> 00:01:26,390 you guys could both introduce yourselves and share a bit. 24 00:01:26,390 --> 00:01:30,070 Like how did you, How has your sort of journey into crypto bin 25 00:01:30,070 --> 00:01:32,550 and how has it led to a nifty fi? 26 00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:36,790 Yeah, sure. So my name's Steven. 27 00:01:36,790 --> 00:01:42,390 I've been in tech basically since I was a teenager. 28 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:45,750 Really learned to program. My first job was writing a. 29 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:49,620 Game in C++ when I was still in high school, so it really has 30 00:01:49,620 --> 00:01:54,740 been in my career from the start and I I live in South Africa. 31 00:01:55,300 --> 00:01:59,660 I spent two years just as I finished high school living in 32 00:01:59,660 --> 00:02:04,820 the UK and then around 2016 did a calculation and figured out 33 00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:08,979 that I was earning less in dollars 15 years into my career 34 00:02:08,979 --> 00:02:11,580 than I was in my first job living in the UK. 35 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:15,170 And I was basically because the South African rands purchasing 36 00:02:15,170 --> 00:02:16,890 power, it just fallen off a Cliff. 37 00:02:17,290 --> 00:02:20,490 So I was still in South Africa enjoy the lifestyle, all my 38 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:23,050 friends were here. But I was looking for a way to 39 00:02:23,050 --> 00:02:28,290 kind of escape the the financial system here and really that's 40 00:02:28,290 --> 00:02:34,610 how I kind of came across crypto and then late 2016 boards at my 41 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:37,330 first crypto. You know, basically using all 42 00:02:37,330 --> 00:02:39,490 instead of paying in tomorrow times and you would see I was 43 00:02:39,490 --> 00:02:41,010 buying crypto which is probably not. 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:47,840 The most risk like management style for retirement, but really 45 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,520 you know like given how badly the South African Rand was 46 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,840 doing, you really was kind of my only option to really exit the 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,280 system here. So that was 2016, went full time 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:06,120 into crypto like 2018 and then started and if to fight end of 49 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:12,750 2019 so basically spent the 1st. 2 Lockdowns in South Africa 50 00:03:12,950 --> 00:03:17,190 writing The first version of Liftify launched in June 2020. 51 00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:22,590 And then my interest in NF T's really came from the way that I 52 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:26,470 actually learned to program as a kid was by doing essentially 53 00:03:26,470 --> 00:03:29,350 generative art using this program called Logo. 54 00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:33,350 It's it's a this derivative that's essentially used to teach 55 00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:36,950 children how to program. And you do that by drawing 56 00:03:36,950 --> 00:03:38,870 pictures on the screen with this little turtle. 57 00:03:39,340 --> 00:03:43,700 So I was into generative arts really as soon as I got into 58 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,460 programming. So when NFS came around 59 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:52,300 combining arts programming and then I spent most of my career 60 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:54,780 working for national for financial services companies. 61 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:58,540 So adding in finance on top of that and you kind of basically 62 00:03:58,540 --> 00:04:03,940 have an if to find. Awesome and thanks again. 63 00:04:03,940 --> 00:04:07,020 So my name is Storm, so my background. 64 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:11,750 I'm originally from Ireland. And so essentially, I kicked off 65 00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:16,110 my career in the investment banking space in a speciality 66 00:04:16,110 --> 00:04:19,790 called project finance, which is essentially infrastructure, 67 00:04:20,029 --> 00:04:23,470 renewable energy. Finance did that for for quite 68 00:04:23,470 --> 00:04:27,870 some time, around five years before I really fell down the 69 00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:32,230 kind of crypto rabbit hole when I discovered, well, I suppose 70 00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:34,870 actually I've been in crypto since 2014. 71 00:04:35,190 --> 00:04:38,600 I doubled in it as a student. But at that point in time I was 72 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,760 more interested in in buying beers than kind of adding to my 73 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,920 my stack of crypto. So I discovered at that time 74 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,040 like really fell in love with it, kind of followed it very 75 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,360 closely over the course of kind of five years. 76 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,760 And at which point I kind of really fell down the rabbit 77 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,560 hole, as I said in 2021, which when I discovered NF T's. 78 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,880 So I kind of started in that space, collecting some, trading 79 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,470 some, flipping some, the usual. Kind of a classical NFT 80 00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:13,070 degenerate story and but I did also kind of begin to discover 81 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:15,790 NFT finance at that point in time as well. 82 00:05:16,510 --> 00:05:19,470 It was quite interesting that not only could you buy and sell 83 00:05:19,470 --> 00:05:22,670 assets but also you could be into kind of as part of your 84 00:05:22,670 --> 00:05:25,510 trading strategy take loans out against them as well. 85 00:05:26,110 --> 00:05:29,910 So started there as kind of a manual lender and the NFT 86 00:05:29,910 --> 00:05:33,190 finance space, but then kind of since partnered up with the 87 00:05:33,190 --> 00:05:36,140 developer. Business partner developer and 88 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:38,540 we started doing a lot of automated or programmatic 89 00:05:38,540 --> 00:05:40,780 lending in the NFT space as well. 90 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:46,020 So really kind of got very deeply involved after a time 91 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:48,860 came to know all of the essentially all of the major 92 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:51,580 lenders in the space and quite some of the borrowers in the 93 00:05:51,580 --> 00:05:53,900 space as well. And after you've been in the 94 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,460 space for for quite a while, you you like it is a very, very deep 95 00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:00,940 rabbit hole from which you really can't emerge and probably 96 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:03,580 as we as we continue on the conversation later today. 97 00:06:03,980 --> 00:06:05,940 Like, there's a lot of very interesting aspects of the 98 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:09,180 market that are creeping up, but I think are really going to be 99 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:11,540 exciting over the next couple of years. 100 00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:14,220 Cool. Thanks so much for these intros. 101 00:06:15,380 --> 00:06:17,020 So you mentioned already a little. 102 00:06:17,020 --> 00:06:18,940 You both kind of touched on it a bit, right? 103 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:21,340 And so this is basically like the NFT market. 104 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:27,140 And can you just let us know like what is the state of the 105 00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:31,220 NFT market today? And maybe also just roll a 106 00:06:31,220 --> 00:06:32,820 little bit? Yeah, the main things that are 107 00:06:32,820 --> 00:06:34,670 going on. Yeah. 108 00:06:34,670 --> 00:06:38,430 So maybe what I can do is give like a very high level kind of 109 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:41,790 overview and then store. Maybe you can dive into a couple 110 00:06:41,790 --> 00:06:45,830 of things that are actually looking quite interesting going 111 00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:50,510 forward. So I think there's broadly 2 112 00:06:50,910 --> 00:06:55,590 kind of groups of Nfts that are active in the market and I would 113 00:06:56,750 --> 00:07:00,060 classify them really as. The top end of the art markets 114 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:04,740 and collectibles and then everything else really and the 115 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:07,420 top end of the art market. The reason I have put that 116 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:10,580 differently is cuz I think that's really the sector of the 117 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:13,300 market that has actually found product market fit. 118 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:18,700 So these art pieces are they're finished, there's no external 119 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:21,140 dependencies, A lot of them are fully on chain. 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,320 You're not relying on a team or a project to go build something 121 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,320 out that's now gonna drive value to these assets. 122 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,440 They're just pieces of art. They're finished. 123 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,120 You can just. Everything that you need to know 124 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,600 to evaluate them is almost in the past, right? 125 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,640 You know, the artists, you know, the history, the work is either 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,840 good or it's not. You're not waiting for any 127 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,640 future things. Then there's this whole second 128 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,390 set of the market, which is. More company like or utility. 129 00:07:49,470 --> 00:07:53,750 So I would say profile picture projects, Pfp's would fit into 130 00:07:53,750 --> 00:07:56,470 there. A lot of the new areas around 131 00:07:56,470 --> 00:07:59,430 ticketing and music and royalties and all these kinds of 132 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:03,070 things, they're very interesting and a lot of potential there I 133 00:08:03,070 --> 00:08:07,350 think, but much more risky because they still have to prove 134 00:08:07,350 --> 00:08:09,870 product market fits and that's you're seeing it actually in the 135 00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:12,190 prices. If you look at the like an 136 00:08:12,190 --> 00:08:14,910 index, that's mainly made-up of top end art. 137 00:08:15,450 --> 00:08:18,810 They've pretty much bottomed and not really gone down any further 138 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:22,250 whereas if you look at PFP projects and and all of 139 00:08:22,610 --> 00:08:25,130 everything in that category, they still have quite a lot of 140 00:08:25,130 --> 00:08:28,730 headwinds ahead of them. So yeah so that's like broadly 141 00:08:28,730 --> 00:08:31,770 how I would put those to you. I think the other thing to also 142 00:08:31,770 --> 00:08:36,130 just bear in mind is that you know Nft's really are a luxury 143 00:08:36,130 --> 00:08:40,730 good and the same as any luxury goods they they have the wealth 144 00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:43,330 effect really takes an impact. So if you. 145 00:08:44,310 --> 00:08:49,310 If you look at the prices for second hand luxury watches like 146 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:53,710 Rolexes and Protect Philips and you overlay that graph onto the 147 00:08:53,710 --> 00:08:57,590 prices for board a Yacht Club, it's almost a mirror of each 148 00:08:57,590 --> 00:08:58,790 other. I mean the the board apes are 149 00:08:58,790 --> 00:09:02,270 slightly more volatile, but you know the peak was in March, 150 00:09:02,270 --> 00:09:04,430 April. They've slowly been going down 151 00:09:04,430 --> 00:09:06,870 since then, starting to bottom right now. 152 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:09,790 Some signs that maybe the next few months they start turning 153 00:09:09,790 --> 00:09:10,830 around. That is really. 154 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:14,860 These are illiquid assets that are luxury purchases. 155 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:18,940 And like every other luxury asset in that class, when people 156 00:09:18,940 --> 00:09:20,980 feel rich, they start spending more money. 157 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:24,100 When the markets turn around, these illiquid assets are the 158 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:26,300 last thing you sell. So they tend to hold their 159 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:30,060 prices for a little bit longer kind of drop after the address 160 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:35,060 of the markets actually dropped. Yeah, that's great points like 161 00:09:35,060 --> 00:09:37,900 Steven. And I suppose the way that I 162 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,860 would frame it in some ways is that. 163 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:44,780 The NFT market to date has been a great placeholder for what is 164 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:48,260 to come probably over the next, call it one, one to three years 165 00:09:48,260 --> 00:09:51,460 as an example. Particularly when you look at 166 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:54,420 the profile picture markets, which really has actually just 167 00:09:54,420 --> 00:09:57,140 been the lion's share of the market to date. 168 00:09:57,660 --> 00:10:01,660 It's kind of been a good experiment in NF T's as like a 169 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:05,780 base technological primitive and how you can kind of stack that 170 00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:10,560 with other kind of composable. Technology structures on but sit 171 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,320 on Ethereum like there's been kind of some good interesting 172 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,680 highlights particular in the areas of as alongside the ones 173 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:21,040 that you mentioned Steven, community building membership 174 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,400 just general interaction with fans. 175 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,520 It's a good way for companies to release products. 176 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,760 So it's a completely new way for them to release products which 177 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,120 you know never discount the concept of companies trying to 178 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,800 sell people at large more products. 179 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,340 It's a. Because you know, it's been an 180 00:10:38,340 --> 00:10:40,980 interesting way for artists in particular to express themselves 181 00:10:40,980 --> 00:10:43,860 that's been a definite bright spot like the emergence of a lot 182 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:48,100 of creativity on chain, whereas you know artists or creatives 183 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,900 generally might not have had that outlet before. 184 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,700 And then one important area definitely worth mentioning, 185 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:58,420 we're starting seal of green shoots in the area of real world 186 00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:01,140 assets. So this these are physical or 187 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:03,980 financial assets which are starting to make the way on 188 00:11:03,980 --> 00:11:06,820 chain. And then just generally as I 189 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:08,780 mentioned kind of like the concept of digital asset 190 00:11:08,780 --> 00:11:11,780 composability. So which is a really, really 191 00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:15,300 important one where essentially you kind of ask the question 192 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:20,020 where how do pure digital objects or alternatively digital 193 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:24,300 objects which represent physical objects, how do they stack you 194 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:28,300 know in the D5 money, Lego composable worlds that we live 195 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:31,300 in on, on Ethereum and I think like you know over the coming 196 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:35,510 years the this. Composability of Nfts with other 197 00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:38,310 primitives really starts to perform like what? 198 00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:42,030 A significant bedrock, You know, an economic bedrock on a serum, 199 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:46,030 which will be quite interesting. I'm curious if you can dive in a 200 00:11:46,030 --> 00:11:51,310 little bit into, yeah, the sort of real world asset bracket of 201 00:11:51,310 --> 00:11:55,110 the market, what has most traction there, like what kind 202 00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:57,100 of use cases? Yeah. 203 00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:01,740 So I think there's sections of the market that are actually 204 00:12:01,940 --> 00:12:06,340 very similar to the collectibles that I've already found some 205 00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:10,940 traction in, in Nft's. So and that, you know, watches, 206 00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:16,500 sneakers, paintings, basketball, playing cards, those kind of 207 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:19,820 things. So the reason I think those will 208 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:24,020 probably take off first is it's relatively easy to store those 209 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:26,260 things in the warehouse and tokenize them. 210 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:30,590 That they are fairly unregulated, so you're not 211 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:32,870 having to to jump through a lot of regulatory hoops. 212 00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:36,150 They can act very similar to the actual Nft's. 213 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:42,190 There's a huge overlap in the holder base, so a lot of the 214 00:12:42,190 --> 00:12:46,590 people who started collecting Nft's were just collectors at 215 00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:48,310 heart. So they already had a stamp 216 00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:51,950 collection or Magic the Gathering cards under their bed 217 00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:54,950 or multiple watches that they're collecting, so. 218 00:12:55,450 --> 00:13:00,890 So there's just this big overlap between the actual borrower base 219 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:04,290 or the actual collector base there that I think connects in 220 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:08,250 quite easily. And then I think the other 221 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:11,170 reason is now that you're starting to have some of these 222 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:16,450 NFTE financialization services that are kind of popping up 223 00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:19,820 around Nftes. Tokenizing that asset all of a 224 00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:21,980 sudden means you can do things with it. 225 00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:24,740 That's much more difficult to do if you don't actually take 226 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:26,300 tokenize it and bring it on chain. 227 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:31,220 So get access to 24/7 markets, but you know, open CE, blur, all 228 00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:33,980 those kind of things. You get lending markets, you get 229 00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:36,540 fractionalization. You know, there's a whole bunch 230 00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:38,980 of this infrastructure that has been built over the last two 231 00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:42,140 years that all of a sudden actually make it worthwhile to 232 00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:48,340 bring those assets on chain. So in this example, let's say 233 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:50,340 you mentioned like watches, sneakers and stuff. 234 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:54,980 So this would you would have an NFT and that can be redeemed 235 00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:57,460 then for the actual physical object, something like that's 236 00:13:57,460 --> 00:14:00,060 correct, yes. And the visual object is stored 237 00:14:00,060 --> 00:14:03,060 with some custodian and anyone can go there and basically give 238 00:14:03,060 --> 00:14:05,220 NFT and they get that. Yes, exactly. 239 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:07,300 And that's kind of where we're seeing a lot of the traction at 240 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,500 the moment. So there's quite a few people 241 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:13,540 like 4k.com is basically building a distributed network 242 00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:16,670 of. Warehouses where you you send in 243 00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:20,350 the physical assets, they bring it on, take some photos, maybe 244 00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:24,910 do a 3D scan, mints an NFT that represents the assets and then 245 00:14:26,070 --> 00:14:29,510 basically that NFT can the the actual asset stays in the 246 00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:33,150 warehouse and that NFT can start trading, you know go through 247 00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:37,070 open C, go into the loan and then at some point if you if the 248 00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:40,350 owner of that NFT wants to redeem the asset, they can burn 249 00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:43,790 that NFT. And in return the the warehouse 250 00:14:43,790 --> 00:14:49,630 sent it back to to that person. So in theory, which is quite an 251 00:14:49,630 --> 00:14:53,270 interesting concept, you could become the world's largest watch 252 00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:57,870 sneaker trading cards dealer without ever taking physical 253 00:14:57,870 --> 00:15:01,030 possession of an item, which I think will be quite interesting. 254 00:15:01,110 --> 00:15:03,630 And and similarly you can become you know a major lender in the 255 00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:06,430 space without ever having, having to take custody of an 256 00:15:06,430 --> 00:15:08,420 asset. Cool. 257 00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:11,660 Well, let let's talk about NFT finance then. 258 00:15:11,660 --> 00:15:14,460 So you know you mentioned a bunch of the different types of 259 00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:18,980 assets and of course a lot of listeners will be familiar. 260 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:21,500 I think most of all is this will be no reasonably familiar with 261 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:25,020 Defy and you know no kind of the primitives from there. 262 00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:28,780 But what does the NFT finance space look like and what are the 263 00:15:28,780 --> 00:15:31,420 most important, you know, kind of like primitives and 264 00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:35,020 innovations there? Yeah, sure. 265 00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:39,530 So I think there's. 2 main distinctions that you want to 266 00:15:39,530 --> 00:15:43,810 make when you're considering the NFT lending market and that is 267 00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:47,090 whether the protocol is a peer-to-peer model or whether 268 00:15:47,090 --> 00:15:50,210 it's a peer to pool model. I think that's the two kind of 269 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:54,690 buckets into which most NFT platforms fall at the moment. 270 00:15:54,970 --> 00:15:58,490 And then of course you have structures which sit on top of 271 00:15:58,490 --> 00:16:00,530 them and leverage them. But for the most part, the 272 00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:03,770 building blocks of of the industry are peer-to-peer peer 273 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:06,550 to pool models. The way that the, I should 274 00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:10,310 mention N FT-5 in this case is a peer, peer-to-peer platform. 275 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:13,750 It's a, it's a structure that we really back. 276 00:16:14,510 --> 00:16:18,310 It's worked very well for us since the start has really a lot 277 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:22,350 of excellent aspects about it that make it very borrower 278 00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:26,270 friendly. So just to maybe dive into what 279 00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:29,230 that actually looks like. So peer-to-peer platform as you 280 00:16:29,230 --> 00:16:31,590 can imagine is comprised of two sides. 281 00:16:32,690 --> 00:16:35,130 On one part, you have borrowers which come onto the platform. 282 00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:36,930 On the other side you have lenders which come onto the 283 00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:40,010 platform. The borrowers typically own NF 284 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:44,450 T's or various different assets which they list on the platform. 285 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:46,970 In this case it's a gas free transactions are listed on N 286 00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:51,490 FT-5 and then lenders come onto the platform and they compete 287 00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:54,130 essentially compete for the assets which they would like to 288 00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:57,330 lend against. And So what that typically looks 289 00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:00,810 like, lenders set bids structured around loans of value 290 00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:03,860 of assets. Around the different Aprs which 291 00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:08,300 they would like to receive and return for the loan and that's 292 00:17:08,339 --> 00:17:11,460 kind of the typical approach. The borrower will then have a 293 00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:13,619 look through the various different terms that have been 294 00:17:13,619 --> 00:17:16,300 made available to them from the various lenders and they'll 295 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:18,500 select the terms that work best for them. 296 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:21,980 You know some, some lenders have a shorter time preference where 297 00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:24,980 they only want to loan for let's call it 3 or so, sorry, some 298 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:27,579 some borrowers have a shorter time preference where they only 299 00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:29,660 need capital for three or seven days. 300 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:31,980 Or on the other end of the market, we're actually seeing 301 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:35,940 quite a lot of loans for 365 days, so full, full years. 302 00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:40,460 So with that being said, at the at the end of the term of the 303 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:44,940 loan, what the borrower does, they simply it's a fixed fixed 304 00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:47,460 term loan, APO is fixed at the start of the loan. 305 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:50,300 So at the end of the duration of the loan, they know exactly what 306 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:52,780 they have to repay and the date on which they repay. 307 00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:55,620 At that point they repay the loan. 308 00:17:57,250 --> 00:18:00,690 Which is initially placed in an escrow smart contract. 309 00:18:01,610 --> 00:18:04,690 The assets I see that the NFT is placed in an escrow smart 310 00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:06,610 contract. It's then released from the 311 00:18:06,770 --> 00:18:10,130 escrow smart contract back to the borrower at the end of the 312 00:18:10,130 --> 00:18:13,570 duration of the repayment of the loan and the lender receives 313 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:15,930 back their principal plus the interest which they offered. 314 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:19,610 So that's in summary of the the peer-to-peer structure. 315 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,400 And then so you just still jump in there. 316 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,880 If the lender that the borrower doesn't repay on time, then the 317 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,320 lender can foreclose the asset. The borrower keeps the loan 318 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,520 principal and the lender will receive the actual NFT. 319 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,040 Yeah. So that's basically the risk 320 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:41,160 that the lender has to sort of calculate with that, OK. 321 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,720 If this NFT drops in value, then all of a sudden it can be the 322 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,530 case that doesn't make economic sense anymore for the borrower 323 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:52,970 to actually be paid alone. And then they would, it was sort 324 00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:57,410 of default, even if they let's say normally could. 325 00:18:57,570 --> 00:18:59,810 You know, maybe they have the money and they could pay, right? 326 00:18:59,810 --> 00:19:02,330 But like. Correct, correct. 327 00:19:02,410 --> 00:19:07,290 And many, many borrowers actually use and the protocol as 328 00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:09,050 part of a hedging strategy as well. 329 00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:12,730 So essentially to protect their downside in the instance that 330 00:19:12,930 --> 00:19:14,970 the value of their NFNF T's does fall. 331 00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:18,580 And on the other side, you know many of the lenders are very 332 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:22,660 sophisticated individuals, former traditional finance 333 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:26,460 individuals and just generally very deep NFT finance people. 334 00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:30,700 So they they understand the risks for the most part of of of 335 00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:32,420 kind of the the the structures there. 336 00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:37,580 So yeah, it's it's very interesting space and then 337 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:41,820 perhaps moving on then to the pier to pool model which is a 338 00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:44,830 little bit different. It probably more closely 339 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:50,230 resembles what you're used to seeing with Ave. or kind of 340 00:19:50,310 --> 00:19:56,510 balance or one of these types of of pool models where essentially 341 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:59,430 on one part you have the borrowers and again you have the 342 00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:02,470 lenders. The lenders place into one 343 00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:06,910 generalized pool an amount of Ethereum or USDC as an example. 344 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:12,230 And then the borrowers can retrieve Ethereum or USDC from 345 00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:15,140 those pools. By depositing their assets into 346 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:20,100 the into the pools. Typically those terms are preset 347 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,340 by the pool itself or by the protocol itself. 348 00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:27,140 For example, if you had a award a you know floor process of 30 349 00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:32,620 eats, and I had a 50% loan to value specified on the pool, you 350 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:34,940 can withdraw 15 eats from the pool. 351 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:39,860 Typically with that approach there is no duration set, so you 352 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:41,820 can borrow indefinitely in theory. 353 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,360 However, you do need to be conscious of essentially your 354 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,560 health or LTV ratios in those pools. 355 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,800 So if they fall below a certain level, then there is the risk 356 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,720 that you can have your assets liquidated. 357 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,520 And typically as a result, the liquidated assets are placed 358 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,360 into a an automated auction mechanism where they're listed 359 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,200 and people can bid on them and that they're liquidated that 360 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,040 way. Whereas in the peer peer-to-peer 361 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,960 model, it's the individual lenders themselves which carry 362 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,730 out the liquidations. And just one thing that occurs 363 00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:17,530 to me here, I don't know if that's correct, but it seems 364 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:21,330 like in the peer-to-peer model maybe you don't need any kind of 365 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:25,170 external price Oracle, but in the peer to poo model you would 366 00:21:25,170 --> 00:21:28,690 need that. Yep, that's correct, absolutely. 367 00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:32,450 And that's one of the reasons we really back the peer-to-peer 368 00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:36,490 model here, just because we're already seeing it with. 369 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:41,890 A few of the pier to pool protocols is because you have 370 00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:44,570 this time weights at Oracle. So you need to have the time 371 00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:47,170 weights at Oracle because these assets are pretty illiquid. 372 00:21:47,610 --> 00:21:51,930 So if you're just looking at the immediate price, it's quite easy 373 00:21:51,930 --> 00:21:55,170 to move the floor price of that asset if you own enough of them. 374 00:21:56,010 --> 00:22:00,370 So you have the time weights at Oracle, which then means big 375 00:22:00,370 --> 00:22:04,090 whales in the market can they know when the next price move is 376 00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:06,450 coming and they can essentially position themselves. 377 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:09,010 Because they've got a lot of capital and a lot of these 378 00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:15,330 assets to either move the next price that you're gonna get from 379 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:18,170 the article around or predict what it's gonna be and 380 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:22,330 essentially dump assets into the market just before just after 381 00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:23,970 one of those updates are gonna be. 382 00:22:24,050 --> 00:22:28,170 So I think that is a very key difference between the two, and 383 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:33,150 I think the other big thing is. Predictability and control for 384 00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:36,510 the asset owners. So you know if you own an auto 385 00:22:36,510 --> 00:22:39,110 glyph for example, you know there's only 512 of them. 386 00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:41,790 They hardly ever sell. They're really hard to get the 387 00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:43,590 hold of once you've actually sold one. 388 00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:46,910 They typically only sell it when the prices are going up, when 389 00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:48,670 the markets are where the prices are going down. 390 00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:53,310 All this is hold them. And in that scenario, you might 391 00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:57,190 end up as a in a peer-to-peer model, maybe there's a there's a 392 00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:59,390 spike down in the price over the short term. 393 00:22:59,820 --> 00:23:01,820 But you still wanna repay because you believe in six 394 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:04,060 months it's gonna recover. And you know that if you sell 395 00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:06,660 this asset now, you're not gonna be able to buy it back before 396 00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:10,420 the price recovers. And in a peer-to-peer model, 397 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:14,140 because it's fixed duration, fixed interest, you're always in 398 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:15,820 control. You always know I need to pay 399 00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:19,500 this much On this date and it's my choice to decide if I do 400 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,300 that. Obviously Excel circumsizes 401 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:25,060 might mean that you can't, but still, you're in control. 402 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,360 Whereas in these peer to pool models and actually on the blend 403 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:33,120 model to where it's variable duration, variable interest, 404 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,640 you're exposed to market movements in that actual load 405 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,400 and if there's a temporary price push down, your asset might get 406 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,040 liquidated. Typically these liquidations 407 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,680 happen at the worst time because the market's dumping, it's 408 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,230 probably quite illiquid, so. It's, yeah. 409 00:23:51,230 --> 00:23:53,910 So this is a different risk profile and different kind of 410 00:23:53,910 --> 00:23:56,670 borrower who will do each one of the two. 411 00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:59,430 So that you know variable interest, variable duration is 412 00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:03,110 probably more suitable to a trader who's trying to unlock 413 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:07,110 some liquidity maybe to chase some yield in another protocol 414 00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:09,750 somewhere. And as soon as that yield isn't 415 00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:12,870 profitable anymore, you can just move the asset out of out of 416 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:17,390 that loan and you can stop your actual losses there. 417 00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:19,470 Whereas if you got a fixed duration loan, you kind of 418 00:24:19,470 --> 00:24:25,970 locked in for that period. So you talked, I mean that is 419 00:24:25,970 --> 00:24:29,290 very helpful, interesting. So you both talked about 420 00:24:29,610 --> 00:24:32,570 lending, right. So the use case of lending and 421 00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:36,570 then you know this pool and peer-to-peer model, aside from 422 00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:42,570 lending, are there other major, you know, kind of types of DEF I 423 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:44,050 don't know, are people trying to do like? 424 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:48,500 Options or, I don't know, Is there something like perpetuals 425 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:52,460 or like I don't know what are? What other kinds of instruments 426 00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:55,220 have people come up with around NFT? 427 00:24:56,860 --> 00:25:00,020 Yeah, well, you've took the two concepts that you touched on 428 00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:01,940 there. They're absolutely are and 429 00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:07,220 protocols active in that space and the PERP side in particular 430 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:12,410 probably it's a different, it's a very difficult area. 431 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:16,770 Again, it comes back often times to the issue of having an Oracle 432 00:25:16,770 --> 00:25:19,410 for what is quite an illiquid asset. 433 00:25:20,410 --> 00:25:23,530 So there's NFT Purp as an example, which is active in that 434 00:25:23,530 --> 00:25:27,290 space and they are in the process of revamping their 435 00:25:27,290 --> 00:25:32,850 protocol to refresh it. But one of the very interesting 436 00:25:33,130 --> 00:25:36,290 areas again is you know as we're positioning ourselves and have 437 00:25:36,290 --> 00:25:39,650 positioned ourselves as you know a very much a base primitive 438 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,440 within the NFT lending world. You do get interesting 439 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,360 integrations with these other protocols whereby you know 440 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:48,800 they're coming to us to talk to us. 441 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,200 Hey, you guys have the best regarded smart contracts in the 442 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,000 industry, you've been around for the longest and you know we 443 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,320 would love to work with you and build our protocol on top of 444 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,480 you. So as an example, we're actually 445 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,980 in discussions with an NFT options platform who are you 446 00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:11,500 know going to integrate alongside us, you know as part 447 00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:13,820 of that. So potentially leveraging our 448 00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:17,820 smart contracts and settlement layer as part of you know a 449 00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:19,460 major part of their their platform. 450 00:26:20,180 --> 00:26:24,260 But there are a lot of innovations in the space so far. 451 00:26:24,460 --> 00:26:28,220 I think one thing that has many protocols I've struggled with 452 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:31,540 somewhat is just the level of liquidity in the market. 453 00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:35,580 When you compare it to the fungible token or EU RC20 token 454 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:39,840 market, they typically tend to work a little bit better from a 455 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,600 composability standpoint compared to NFTS. 456 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,480 But that is something which we're seeing that's shifting. 457 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Yeah, I think that's a very important point. 458 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,920 Even the most liquid NFT collection is probably less 459 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,000 liquid than the least liquid ERC 20s, right. 460 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,200 So they just they just way less active. 461 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,760 So things like pricing is much more difficult. 462 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,120 Oracles are much more difficult. So this is some idiosyncrasies 463 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:12,080 in the actual NFTE market, mainly due to not to so much the 464 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,800 fact that it's an NFTE standard, but the types of assets that are 465 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,560 suited to being represented as an NFTE by definition, are more 466 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,560 unique. They're not fungible, they're 467 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,190 less liquid. So they just have a different 468 00:27:26,190 --> 00:27:31,430 set of properties that certain products don't work as well and 469 00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:35,150 there's new products that are kind of more interesting and 470 00:27:35,150 --> 00:27:40,990 different and I think quite a bit of opportunity exists in 471 00:27:40,990 --> 00:27:44,590 that as well. In a market that's completely 472 00:27:44,590 --> 00:27:49,150 non fungible, there are areas where you can specialize and 473 00:27:49,150 --> 00:27:53,160 really kind of take advantage of you know from a lender 474 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,120 perspective, lender perspective or as a borrower. 475 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,760 And for example you could specialize we mentioned earlier 476 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,760 on the on the podcast, but you could become you know a very 477 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,480 specialized sneaker lender as an example. 478 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,120 And although you you understand that the liquidity in those 479 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,240 assets from time to time might be a little bit spotty, but you 480 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,680 are still comfortable and confident of taking on that 481 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,120 inventory risk because you're a market specialist in that area? 482 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,660 Yeah, yeah. And can you just talk like a 483 00:28:23,660 --> 00:28:28,460 little bit about sort of the size of the NFT market. 484 00:28:28,460 --> 00:28:34,180 So if you compare you know, NFT with let's say liquid tokens and 485 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:36,340 I guess there's a whole bunch of different dimensions that one 486 00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:37,980 could look at. You know, I don't know the total 487 00:28:37,980 --> 00:28:43,300 market cap or like trading volume or you know the size of 488 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:47,460 the lending market and maybe the size of the lending market, you 489 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:50,170 know. Relative to the total market 490 00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:53,170 cap, I'm curious like what are some of the things that send out 491 00:28:53,170 --> 00:28:55,050 to you the most? Yeah. 492 00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:58,490 So maybe I can talk a little bit about penetration, maybe you can 493 00:28:58,490 --> 00:29:00,810 talk a little bit about more like overall size of the 494 00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:04,370 markets. So if you look at. 495 00:29:05,580 --> 00:29:09,700 Start lending for example in the traditional world it's like $1.4 496 00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:13,540 trillion asset class. It's got a roughly 15% 497 00:29:13,540 --> 00:29:17,300 penetration. So 15% of that $1.4 trillion is 498 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,860 being held in collateral as a loan mainly with banks or and 499 00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:23,980 galleries. And if you're looking at 500 00:29:23,980 --> 00:29:28,620 penetration in the NFT space, probably sub 2% at the moment. 501 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:31,380 You know it was a little bit higher I think at the peak of 502 00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:34,140 the of the the bull run, but it's it's dropped a little bit 503 00:29:34,140 --> 00:29:37,630 now. There's a roughly $100 million 504 00:29:37,630 --> 00:29:43,190 in outstanding debts across all protocols at the moment for NFT 505 00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:45,470 lending. But really you know kind of I 506 00:29:45,470 --> 00:29:49,950 think of this as similar to where D Phi was pre D Phi 507 00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:51,910 summer. There was kind of you know these 508 00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:55,190 protocols, they kind of built the core product. 509 00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:58,190 They've found some product market fit with a core set of 510 00:29:58,190 --> 00:30:01,990 users who are very deep into the space and they kind of draw, you 511 00:30:01,990 --> 00:30:04,540 know, there's quite a there's. Quite a lot of concentration 512 00:30:04,540 --> 00:30:08,020 around a few big holders, quite a lot of concentration around a 513 00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:11,700 few big lenders. And we predict that in the next 514 00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:15,660 bull cycle you're gonna see that expand and explode quite 515 00:30:15,660 --> 00:30:19,460 significantly because now you're gonna have this infrastructure 516 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:23,860 and multiple options to cater to different types of users there. 517 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:28,780 So that's kind of the overall lending market size. 518 00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:32,930 I mean if you can look, if you think about the overall markets, 519 00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:40,290 you know 56% of the estimated value in the stock market are is 520 00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:44,370 intangible assets, a lot of them that are non fungible, right. 521 00:30:44,370 --> 00:30:47,450 So if you're looking at the traditional world and the total 522 00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:52,170 value of all items in the world, most of that value is actually 523 00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:56,450 non fungible. So buildings, super tankers. 524 00:30:56,450 --> 00:31:00,850 Your car is non fungible so. So, so I think the total 525 00:31:00,850 --> 00:31:03,530 addressable market of what's eventually going to be tokenized 526 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:07,610 and represented as nonfungible is as big or even bigger 527 00:31:07,610 --> 00:31:11,090 potentially than EU SC20 or the the fungible market. 528 00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:14,970 But we still very, very early in that adoption cycle. 529 00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:20,210 Yeah, I'm just even to add there some additional stats as well 530 00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:22,890 just to to give you a sense. If you look at the global 531 00:31:22,890 --> 00:31:27,210 equities market, it's about 120 trillion, global real estate is 532 00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:33,430 320, global debt markets 300. So you know roughly between all 533 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:37,350 of those if you kind of get you know roughly even at like 2% 534 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:41,750 penetration there, you begin to actually eclipse the size of the 535 00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:44,270 E or C20 market in and of itself. 536 00:31:45,030 --> 00:31:47,750 And maybe in the near term, 2% is a little bit on the high 537 00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:49,710 side. But now I can easily see in the 538 00:31:49,710 --> 00:31:54,750 next maybe let's call it two to four years, like half a half a 539 00:31:54,750 --> 00:31:56,870 percent of of some of those assets starting to come on 540 00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:59,460 chain. Because we are speaking to a lot 541 00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:05,460 of the protocols behind that are actually actually doing this and 542 00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:09,300 it's happening a lot faster pace than people I think realize. 543 00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:14,060 One thing I'm curious about is I was like looking at some of the 544 00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:16,620 stats. And I mean, first of all, what 545 00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:20,940 stood out to me was that, like, actually nifty files stats look 546 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:24,840 like pretty good. Right where, OK, it's down a bit 547 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,200 but not that much right from like the sort of peak and then 548 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,880 you know there was also like is that for. 549 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,840 So yeah, I mean there there you felt like well that probably 550 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760 looks better than most like DEFY charts, right, for like DEFY 551 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,920 protocols. But then when there was also the 552 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,360 thing where you had the like the other lending competitors? 553 00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:54,500 And then you have basically Blur coming in a few months ago and 554 00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:57,740 just now having on these charts at least it's correct, something 555 00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:02,940 like 90% of the loan volume. I'm curious, can you talk about 556 00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:05,580 what happened there? Is that correct? 557 00:33:05,620 --> 00:33:08,300 What's going on and what did Blur do? 558 00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:12,660 Yeah, yeah. So I think important thing to. 559 00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:17,630 For some reason, volume really has been the metric that a lot 560 00:33:17,630 --> 00:33:22,270 of people look at in the NFT lending space, which doesn't 561 00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:25,190 really make any sense, right? And if you're looking at DEFY 562 00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:27,630 lending protocols, you're not looking at daily volume. 563 00:33:27,630 --> 00:33:29,590 What you're actually looking at is TVL, right. 564 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:33,950 So how much data is collateralized in the protocol? 565 00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:37,390 And that's very much a factor of two things. 566 00:33:37,390 --> 00:33:39,710 It's both your volume and your duration. 567 00:33:40,510 --> 00:33:44,910 And and So what we're seeing in Blend is if you compare them to 568 00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:49,190 so Blend is the blur lending offering that they've got. 569 00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:53,390 So if you compare their durations to the peer-to-peer 570 00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:56,790 protocols, you know so our average duration is almost 40 571 00:33:56,790 --> 00:33:59,710 days. The average duration for a blend 572 00:33:59,710 --> 00:34:04,990 loan is 0.9 days, 0.94 roughly. So they just have to do 573 00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:08,310 significantly more volume to keep the the outstanding debt. 574 00:34:09,449 --> 00:34:12,409 So that's so that's one thing that's kind of, it's very much 575 00:34:12,409 --> 00:34:14,409 skewed. So looking yes they do 90% of 576 00:34:14,409 --> 00:34:18,090 the volume but they need to do 6% of the outstanding debt every 577 00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:20,770 single day just to stay in, in the same place. 578 00:34:20,770 --> 00:34:24,210 So on the outstanding debt side, they actually kind of more in 579 00:34:24,210 --> 00:34:29,610 line with everybody else kind of in the 18 to $20 million at the 580 00:34:29,610 --> 00:34:32,530 moment. That makes perfect sense, yeah? 581 00:34:32,530 --> 00:34:35,090 Yeah, no, and I agree. I agree with your reasoning. 582 00:34:35,090 --> 00:34:38,610 That seems like a more relevant metric for protocol like that. 583 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,760 Exactly. And then I mean the other thing 584 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,040 that's also happening there with blur and blend is that there's 585 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,679 very strong token incentives at the moment that are going on. 586 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:54,600 And just because of the way the incentive structure is incentive 587 00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:01,000 structure is set up taking out a loan as part of your if you're 588 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,200 trying to maximize the number of points that you did lower points 589 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,240 that you're getting as part of a specific trade. 590 00:35:07,930 --> 00:35:11,930 Taking out a loan on an asset that you bought in a bid and 591 00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:16,330 then selling it out of the loan contract actually gives you 592 00:35:16,330 --> 00:35:18,650 extra points because you get bonus points for taking out a 593 00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:21,650 loan. And selling assets out of the 594 00:35:21,730 --> 00:35:23,970 loan contract means you bypass royalty. 595 00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:26,850 So it's actually the cheapest way to sell an asset. 596 00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:30,010 So you'll see a lot of the blend volume is. 597 00:35:30,590 --> 00:35:32,990 Is really a function of this spot volume. 598 00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:36,590 So the more people are kind of getting assets hits on bids, the 599 00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:38,150 more likely they are to take out a loan. 600 00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:42,110 And it's just part of that kind of optimization loop that people 601 00:35:42,110 --> 00:35:45,390 are using. The royalties things 602 00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:49,430 interesting, does that does it have some applicability as well 603 00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:54,230 in the nifty 5 case? Like let's say in case someone's 604 00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:57,390 loan gets liquidated then royalties are due for the 605 00:35:57,390 --> 00:35:58,740 creator. Yeah. 606 00:35:58,740 --> 00:36:02,220 At the moment the the they aren't royalties being paid out 607 00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:06,380 on a liquidation just because it's quite difficult to have a 608 00:36:06,380 --> 00:36:09,980 standardized Unchained way to know exactly what those 609 00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:12,180 royalties are. So you know our things all get 610 00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:16,620 settled as part of the actual loan smart contract, but you 611 00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:19,260 know, so we're very open to adding those in. 612 00:36:19,420 --> 00:36:21,740 What's there? Is it like a fully Unchained way 613 00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:24,420 to actually determine what the royalties are for a specific 614 00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:28,550 project? And then typically at the end of 615 00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:32,630 a loan, if it's been liquidated, the lender will go to one of the 616 00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:36,870 various marketplaces and sell it there and determine at that 617 00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:40,430 moment in time whether they would like to or not pay the 618 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:44,830 royalties at that moment. Because paying royalties is 619 00:36:44,830 --> 00:36:48,190 something that sort of like the factor is mostly optional or how 620 00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:51,270 does it work? Pretty much there's there's not 621 00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:55,550 an easy way for protocol for projects to enforce this at the 622 00:36:55,550 --> 00:36:59,530 smart contract level. We've seen a number of projects 623 00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:04,730 essentially migrating their the USC 721 contracts to allow them 624 00:37:04,730 --> 00:37:10,090 to block marketplaces that bypass the actual royalty 625 00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:13,650 payments. So we'll see where that kind of 626 00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:16,170 ends up. It's quite a it's a bit of a 627 00:37:17,330 --> 00:37:20,730 game theory set up there where you kind of. 628 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,480 Asset producers are trying to maximize their royalties while 629 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,200 platforms are trying to maximize volume. 630 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,960 So the cheaper the cost of transactions will like you are 631 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:36,240 to take that volume. I think you probably see these 632 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:40,240 real world assets platforms. I suspect we'll probably have a 633 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:45,200 little bit more. Power to enforce royalties, you 634 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,080 know because because they actually own the physical 635 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,120 assets, you know they can just say well you can't redeem this 636 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,400 asset until you've paid royalties on that actually due. 637 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,040 So. So I think that they've got a 638 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:02,320 stronger Moat in terms of royalties as being a value 639 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,080 stream for them. And this is another reason I 640 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,880 think a lot of the projects that raised money kind of during the 641 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,610 last. Big bull run. 642 00:38:10,770 --> 00:38:14,290 A lot of them were really relying on royalties to kind of 643 00:38:14,290 --> 00:38:20,930 be their ongoing cash flow and revenue and that's largely 644 00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:24,090 evaporated over the last six months or so. 645 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:27,970 Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I guess it was always 646 00:38:27,970 --> 00:38:31,370 something that was kind of like, well, can you really enforce 647 00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:33,970 that, right. And that's interesting how 648 00:38:33,970 --> 00:38:36,530 quickly that seems to have sort of moved to the. 649 00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:41,300 You know, I guess equilibrium of everyone ignores the royalties. 650 00:38:42,220 --> 00:38:45,060 Yeah. But like, I think it's an area 651 00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:49,700 that's a big double edged sword and that for creators, the 652 00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:54,740 blockchain offers you a new Ave. to access consumers, customers 653 00:38:54,740 --> 00:38:57,460 which you know from which you can you can generate revenue. 654 00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:01,180 But on the other side of that, one of the great aspects of 655 00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:05,520 Ethereum in particular is the permissionlessness of it, so 656 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:11,560 that you can create essentially ways around giving creators 657 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,560 their dues essentially. So definitely a double edged 658 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,000 sword there. Can you talk a little bit about 659 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,960 this the maybe comparing Blend and Nifty 5 or maybe are there 660 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,680 like what are the other kind of NFT lending protocols doing and 661 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600 what are kind of the main dimensions on which they differ? 662 00:39:31,590 --> 00:39:34,550 Yeah. So I think thinking about 663 00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:37,630 peer-to-peer versus peer to pool, that's a little bit more 664 00:39:37,630 --> 00:39:40,830 on the technical level. If you're looking at it from an 665 00:39:40,830 --> 00:39:44,550 end user perspective. I think the big distinction 666 00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:48,630 there at the moment is, is it fixed duration or variable 667 00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:52,310 duration and fixed interest versus variable interest And 668 00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:55,710 that just, you know, fixed duration, fixed interest is just 669 00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:59,190 much more interesting for us for a specific user cohort. 670 00:39:59,190 --> 00:40:00,470 So it's a big DP people who have. 671 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,720 Longer term views who are collecting these assets because 672 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,880 they want to collect them and they actually want to hold them 673 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,120 over the long run. And then there's a separate 674 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,920 cohort which is much more trader focused to like much shorter 675 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,720 term deals trying to maximize yield over you know 48 to you 676 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:19,640 know 72 hours something like that. 677 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:27,520 And those types of asset owners really prefer variable duration, 678 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,800 variable interest because they can come in and out of those 679 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,000 loans in a shorter period of time. 680 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,600 And then you know then I think the other thing which is a 681 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,680 little bit less of an issue right now which was but more of 682 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,120 an issue in the in the past and I think will become an issue 683 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:47,640 again is can you actually use this asset while it's being used 684 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,560 locked up in an actual loan, right. 685 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,590 So at the peak of the bull run you would have lots of air drops 686 00:40:54,590 --> 00:40:59,350 and events and you know you had to sign into this discord with 687 00:40:59,350 --> 00:41:02,230 your board ape so that you can get access to this other thing 688 00:41:02,230 --> 00:41:04,470 that then gives you mint or this other thing. 689 00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:07,870 So you know you wanted to be able to use the asset once in 690 00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:12,790 escrow. So typically the it's easier to 691 00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:16,750 do that within peer-to-peer versus peer to pool because 692 00:41:16,750 --> 00:41:19,590 assets are like pulled into a big bucket together. 693 00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:24,460 But I think that is the big differentiator right now. 694 00:41:24,980 --> 00:41:29,340 And then and I think over time as these assets become more and 695 00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:33,580 more have more of a history, you know people are more willing to 696 00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:35,940 land over the on them over the long run. 697 00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:40,420 You know, I think features that really drive longer duration are 698 00:41:40,420 --> 00:41:43,500 going to become more important over over the next 6 to 12 699 00:41:43,540 --> 00:41:46,660 months. I'm actually curious to ask 700 00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:51,270 about that, so. Yeah, like using the NFT while 701 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:54,670 it's being used let's say on nifify as collateral, does that, 702 00:41:54,670 --> 00:41:57,270 like how does that work? It does it depend on the 703 00:41:57,350 --> 00:42:01,190 particular Nft's and yeah, so that becomes a little bit more 704 00:42:01,190 --> 00:42:07,490 tricky because you start running into this issue where each NFT 705 00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:11,730 has some idiosyncrasies on how you allow, how you can use them, 706 00:42:11,730 --> 00:42:13,730 what affects the value, all those kind of things. 707 00:42:14,010 --> 00:42:19,290 But so our solution to that is it should be going on over the 708 00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:22,050 next few months. We've got an integration with 709 00:42:22,530 --> 00:42:27,450 NOSA Safe and what that allows us to do is at the moment what 710 00:42:27,450 --> 00:42:31,050 happens is we have a single escrow contract that all assets 711 00:42:31,050 --> 00:42:34,700 go into. So instead of doing that, what 712 00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:38,300 we will allow users to do in the future is you meant a new 713 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:43,620 niftify safe, which is just a notice of safe where you as well 714 00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:48,140 as the niftify protocol or signers on that safe. 715 00:42:48,620 --> 00:42:51,780 And then essentially what we do is we block transfer of that 716 00:42:51,780 --> 00:42:57,020 asset during the loan period, so it goes into the safe. 717 00:42:57,970 --> 00:43:01,450 And then the safe in combination with our actual protocol just 718 00:43:01,450 --> 00:43:03,210 says this asset is not transferable. 719 00:43:03,210 --> 00:43:06,730 So it blocks any transfer methods on that asset for the 720 00:43:06,730 --> 00:43:09,210 duration of the loan. As soon as the loan is finished, 721 00:43:09,210 --> 00:43:11,370 that transfer gets unlocked again. 722 00:43:11,610 --> 00:43:13,210 But everything else you can still do. 723 00:43:13,210 --> 00:43:18,650 So you can still use that safe to connect to a Discord. 724 00:43:18,970 --> 00:43:23,370 Using what it's connect. You can connect to any 725 00:43:23,370 --> 00:43:27,530 application that uses that asset and use it as is in the game. 726 00:43:27,730 --> 00:43:31,250 As long as the transaction doesn't result in a change of 727 00:43:31,250 --> 00:43:33,890 ownership of that asset at the end of it, we'll just refer to 728 00:43:33,890 --> 00:43:38,490 any transaction that does that. Yeah, that sounds like an 729 00:43:38,490 --> 00:43:42,490 elegant solution, yeah. Yeah. 730 00:43:42,490 --> 00:43:45,610 It's a little bit more complicated and tricky than just 731 00:43:45,650 --> 00:43:49,570 kind of building a vault that's like protocol specific. 732 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,400 But you know, I think that the right solution there is to plug 733 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,960 into the infrastructure that has proven itself to be the core 734 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,760 part of Web three really. And you know, we don't then need 735 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,160 to, you know as accounts abstraction gets added onto Nosa 736 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,400 safe and they add additional features. 737 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,640 You know you get all of that for free just by using that as your 738 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,220 escrow wallet inside. And and then do you have to also 739 00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:19,700 take into account, I think you mentioned it before a little bit 740 00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:22,300 like, oh, what if they're like other things that somebody could 741 00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:25,540 do with an NFT that maybe, I don't know, changes they value? 742 00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:28,820 Damage the value? Yeah, something like that. 743 00:44:29,580 --> 00:44:33,580 Yeah, I think that that becomes really difficult to handle in a 744 00:44:33,580 --> 00:44:35,620 generic way, right. So. 745 00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:39,220 So I think that there's always gonna be some, you know, doing 746 00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:44,120 these kinds of loans in these like segregated escrow is what 747 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,920 we're calling it. Really for art, 99.9% of the 748 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,960 time it's gonna be fine. For gaming assets, maybe not 749 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,200 right. So I give you a good example of 750 00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,280 this is say you've got a crypto Kitty, a crypto Kitty. 751 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,400 A virgin crypto Kitty is more valuable than a crypto Kitty 752 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,480 that's been bred. Now that doesn't change 753 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,480 ownership, but that's purely based on the internal mechanics 754 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:15,120 of the game and the community, that people value virgin Crypto 755 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,840 kitties more than they do non virgin ones. 756 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,710 Now that's really difficult for any third party platform to go 757 00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:27,750 write a set of rules for that make that acceptable for every 758 00:45:27,750 --> 00:45:32,070 single possible asset out there. So do you think that there's 759 00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:33,790 always gonna be some customization? 760 00:45:33,790 --> 00:45:37,450 One of the big things we are doing as we kind of keep 761 00:45:37,450 --> 00:45:41,570 evolving the protocol is finding hooks and places where people 762 00:45:41,570 --> 00:45:46,170 might wanna inject some custom logic into the process. 763 00:45:46,370 --> 00:45:49,290 So basically being able to say, well, when we lock a crypto 764 00:45:49,290 --> 00:45:52,770 Kitty in this, in the escrow smart contract, there's an extra 765 00:45:52,770 --> 00:45:55,530 set of validation that you need to do to make sure that the 766 00:45:55,530 --> 00:45:57,730 actual transactions can go through. 767 00:45:58,130 --> 00:46:02,370 Obviously there's some gas costs implications there, but I think 768 00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:06,490 over the long run in general this is a problem that you have 769 00:46:06,490 --> 00:46:13,530 much more with NFTS than you do with EOC 20s, because most EOC 770 00:46:13,530 --> 00:46:16,530 20s basically operate in the same way. 771 00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:20,170 You know, they don't have built in logic and built in, you know, 772 00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:23,650 properties that might change as part of the usage inside of 773 00:46:23,650 --> 00:46:27,170 another protocol. Whereas because an NFT can 774 00:46:27,170 --> 00:46:31,330 really be anything, it's just a unique digital ownable thing, 775 00:46:32,020 --> 00:46:35,740 They can really be anything. So in some scenarios it's harder 776 00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:41,060 to have very generic pieces of of infrastructure built for 777 00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:44,660 them. And what does the what does the 778 00:46:44,660 --> 00:46:48,540 Nitify roadmap look like? What's next for you guys to 779 00:46:48,540 --> 00:46:52,420 build? Yeah, So what I mentioned 780 00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:55,740 earlier, duration I think becomes really important. 781 00:46:55,740 --> 00:47:01,740 So different features that really make it easier for both 782 00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:05,660 borrowers and lenders to take more risk over longer duration. 783 00:47:06,060 --> 00:47:10,220 So you know things along that lines are things like 784 00:47:10,220 --> 00:47:15,500 refinancing interest in only loans where at least the the the 785 00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,860 lender is getting interest payments during the actual loan 786 00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:22,460 period. You know potentially early 787 00:47:22,460 --> 00:47:25,620 repayment of loans so that you can take out a long loan but you 788 00:47:25,620 --> 00:47:28,700 know you can repay earlier. There's no so safe that we that 789 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:32,950 we spoke about. So and then a number of 790 00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:36,510 different things that just make it more efficient for lenders to 791 00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:40,110 deploy capital. So at the moment we've got, you 792 00:47:40,110 --> 00:47:43,670 can make offers on individual assets, you can make offers on 793 00:47:44,270 --> 00:47:46,990 like a whole collection. And then we've got API 794 00:47:47,310 --> 00:47:51,510 integrations like Storm said, where you can kind of watch our 795 00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:54,390 order book and make these individual offers. 796 00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:58,580 But just expanding that and kind of making it easier for less 797 00:47:58,580 --> 00:48:01,980 technical people to compete with what the bots guys can do, 798 00:48:02,380 --> 00:48:05,260 making the collection offers more powerful, being able to 799 00:48:05,260 --> 00:48:08,460 limit it to specific ranges, those kind of things. 800 00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:17,180 So where are the interest rate levels at the moment varies a 801 00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:21,540 lot depending on the assets. So Storm spends day in, day out 802 00:48:21,540 --> 00:48:24,700 dealing with these things. Maybe he's got a better view 803 00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,290 there. Yeah, absolutely. 804 00:48:27,930 --> 00:48:31,530 I suppose because of first concept, it's been fascinating 805 00:48:31,530 --> 00:48:35,930 to watch even over the last, let's call it 6 to 12 months 806 00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:39,450 rates just continuing to fall across the board. 807 00:48:40,090 --> 00:48:43,410 And that's really a function of there's quite a lot of lenders 808 00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:48,170 who are actively involved in the space and like really actively 809 00:48:48,170 --> 00:48:51,010 deploying capital against NFT loans. 810 00:48:51,370 --> 00:48:54,370 And so as a result, the more lenders, more competition. 811 00:48:54,830 --> 00:48:56,870 It's fantastic for borrowers because they're essentially 812 00:48:56,870 --> 00:49:02,070 competing to undercut each other to secure these loans from 813 00:49:02,070 --> 00:49:05,270 borrowers. So you know where are rates more 814 00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:08,390 specifically? So probably for something like a 815 00:49:08,550 --> 00:49:12,070 crypto punk and maybe I can go through some of the the more 816 00:49:12,070 --> 00:49:15,150 major collections that are active on the platform, 817 00:49:15,390 --> 00:49:18,390 something like a crypto punk. As an example, if you wanted to 818 00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:21,870 get a 30 day loan, you could secure somewhere in the range of 819 00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:26,370 80 to 90% loan to value. At a rate of in the range of 820 00:49:26,370 --> 00:49:31,810 let's call it 8 to 10% APR and actually similarly for one year 821 00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:35,130 duration loans against crypto punks you could probably look at 822 00:49:35,130 --> 00:49:39,090 somewhere in the range of 70 to 80% loan to value maybe a little 823 00:49:39,090 --> 00:49:43,730 bit higher on the APR side, let's call it 10 to 12% and 824 00:49:43,730 --> 00:49:45,370 again that's for for a one year loan. 825 00:49:45,890 --> 00:49:50,970 So probably, you know, alongside punks, there are two other you 826 00:49:50,970 --> 00:49:53,050 know what we term like the really true. 827 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,360 Blue chip collections like we're we're lucky, we have a very 828 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,640 unique lens through which we see the NFT market. 829 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,640 There's like the NFT credit markets. 830 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,880 And so we really get to see like what collections are being 831 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,760 underwritten or underscored as like the true blue chips because 832 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,360 it has the lenders like offering the lowest rates for the for the 833 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,240 longest terms. And so alongside punks, you also 834 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:17,920 have crummy squiggles. By, of course, the legend that 835 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,600 is Snow fro and then Auto glyphs as well, and early larval labs. 836 00:50:23,050 --> 00:50:25,730 General generative art projects. So they're probably your main 837 00:50:25,730 --> 00:50:33,610 three, lowest, highest LTV and also lowest APR collections and 838 00:50:33,610 --> 00:50:36,930 then for other collections more let's call it you know, other 839 00:50:36,930 --> 00:50:40,090 kind of profile pictures that that you might costically know. 840 00:50:40,930 --> 00:50:43,690 Apes for example is going to be a little bit higher on the on 841 00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:47,290 the APR side, maybe in the range of 15%, maybe looking at 842 00:50:47,290 --> 00:50:52,110 something like a 70% LTV. And then as you migrate across 843 00:50:52,110 --> 00:50:54,990 like the risk spectrum, let's call it, so the lesser known 844 00:50:54,990 --> 00:51:00,030 projects, you probably get up to maybe in the range of 20 to 40% 845 00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:02,630 Apr. And the typical durations there 846 00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:06,230 are around 30 days, so that the classic duration on the platform 847 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:09,870 is 30 days. I know what actually maybe some 848 00:51:09,870 --> 00:51:14,040 of the best odd blocks curated collections, you're probably 849 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:19,240 getting similar rates to the squiggles and auto glyphs, 850 00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:20,960 right? Maybe slightly slightly higher, 851 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,960 maybe slightly lower LTV just because they're not quite as 852 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:25,960 liquid. But you know things like 853 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:31,320 Fedanzas or ringers, you know those those kind of top tier art 854 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,600 projects also getting rates kind of in that in that same range. 855 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:36,400 Yeah. That's a great point. 856 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,760 There's a very strong bid on on the kind of top tier art blocks 857 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,980 across the board. I can actually just generally 858 00:51:41,980 --> 00:51:46,100 art blocks more generally too, so the kind of full collections 859 00:51:46,100 --> 00:51:48,380 of art blocks there. Yeah. 860 00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:49,980 Thanks so much. That was very helpful. 861 00:51:51,340 --> 00:51:54,300 This is like a kind of related topic I wanted to talk a little 862 00:51:54,300 --> 00:51:57,980 bit about. So Steven, you mentioned in the 863 00:51:57,980 --> 00:52:02,020 beginning, right, you were an artist and that you needed some 864 00:52:02,020 --> 00:52:05,700 work around generative art. I'm like wondering also zooming 865 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:10,700 out a little bit. What's the state of the NFT art 866 00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:15,020 market and what do you feel are the most interesting and cool 867 00:52:15,020 --> 00:52:19,500 things happening? Yeah, so I think broadly you 868 00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:24,060 have two big groups. So it would be the fully 869 00:52:24,060 --> 00:52:29,220 Unchained generative arts and then more the one of one arts 870 00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:36,060 where it's is it fully generated on chain, the arts is produces 871 00:52:36,060 --> 00:52:39,660 some kind of digital image that they then associate with an 872 00:52:39,660 --> 00:52:43,300 actual NFTE versus the fully Unchained generative arts which 873 00:52:43,300 --> 00:52:46,860 is orderless art blocks. And you know there's a few other 874 00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:51,540 protocols that are doing that now and these assets essentially 875 00:52:52,060 --> 00:52:54,780 the image itself is not stored on chain. 876 00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:58,500 What's stored on chain is an algorithm that given a specific 877 00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:02,970 hash can regenerate that image at any resolution. 878 00:53:03,010 --> 00:53:06,090 So those are kind of the two broad groups I would say. 879 00:53:06,130 --> 00:53:12,290 In the Unchained art side of things, the generative pieces 880 00:53:12,290 --> 00:53:16,370 are typically part of a collection, so they are 512 881 00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:21,970 autoglyphs. So there's more of those assets. 882 00:53:21,970 --> 00:53:26,120 So they typically have a larger collector base, which makes them 883 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,440 a little bit more liquid. So they trade a little bit more 884 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:29,960 often. So it's easier to know what the 885 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,840 price is. If you do get a default, it's 886 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,160 easier to sell those items again. 887 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,800 So those are kind of the two broad categories there. 888 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,040 I think both of them have found strong product market fits 889 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,240 store. Maybe you can talk about some 890 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:50,520 big sales and prices and how they've held up in the recent 891 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,640 market? Yeah, look, exactly so. 892 00:53:54,250 --> 00:53:57,650 I think it's been very interesting as the profile 893 00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:02,370 picture markets across the board has kind of been relatively weak 894 00:54:02,370 --> 00:54:05,770 and and the prices has lowered. It's called over the last six to 895 00:54:05,770 --> 00:54:10,930 nine months where you look at the higher end of the art blocks 896 00:54:10,930 --> 00:54:13,650 market in particular. It's actually remained very, 897 00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:16,810 very solid and stable and in some pockets has increased 898 00:54:16,810 --> 00:54:19,250 significantly. I think when you look at 899 00:54:19,250 --> 00:54:23,750 something like the recent. Goose sale at Sotheby's for $6.2 900 00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:27,550 million, I mean this is a category which is here to stay. 901 00:54:28,070 --> 00:54:32,910 You know it's it's known that there are some ultra high 902 00:54:32,910 --> 00:54:36,310 networks and high networks now starting to double in the market 903 00:54:36,310 --> 00:54:39,150 and build their collection in the generative art space. 904 00:54:40,350 --> 00:54:44,030 So I think it's a category that becomes of increasing interest 905 00:54:44,030 --> 00:54:48,230 to the traditional art world and then as a result, you know. 906 00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:51,710 They're kind of are these well established credit markets which 907 00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:55,590 exist alongside them as well, which actually help to support 908 00:54:56,670 --> 00:54:58,630 the prices of those assets as well. 909 00:54:59,070 --> 00:55:02,150 Because when you are seeking liquidity against the assets 910 00:55:02,590 --> 00:55:06,870 instead of previously your only option was either to sell the 911 00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:09,750 assets, whereas actually now you have two options, you can sell 912 00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:13,950 the asset and or take a loan against it, which is actually a 913 00:55:13,950 --> 00:55:17,470 very typical approach with art collectors in the traditional 914 00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:18,650 art world. Yeah. 915 00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:23,170 And I think another way to think of that a little bit is to say 916 00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:29,370 is to say, you know, profile pictures at 38th are very 917 00:55:29,370 --> 00:55:33,970 expensive for a new kind of asset that still needs to find 918 00:55:34,050 --> 00:55:36,610 like exactly where it's driving its value from. 919 00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:41,770 Whereas you know so there was a recent Autoglyph sale for 200 920 00:55:41,890 --> 00:55:48,130 ether that's very cheap for one of the, well basically the 1st 921 00:55:48,620 --> 00:55:53,900 example of a new category in modern art, right. 922 00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:57,580 So so there's and then a lot of these ultra high net worth 923 00:55:57,580 --> 00:56:01,540 individuals that still was talking about they aren't 924 00:56:01,540 --> 00:56:05,980 necessarily crypto native they own traditional artworks and and 925 00:56:05,980 --> 00:56:10,140 they're buying in dollars. So you know, when these asset 926 00:56:10,140 --> 00:56:17,470 prices for these NFT art assets are dropping in ether terms, at 927 00:56:17,470 --> 00:56:20,830 some point these collectors are looking at them and like well, 928 00:56:21,110 --> 00:56:23,550 in dollar terms, that's actually just really cheap for what I'm 929 00:56:23,550 --> 00:56:26,070 buying here. And that's kind of why I think 930 00:56:26,070 --> 00:56:30,590 you see this floor almost in the dollar price of some of these 931 00:56:30,590 --> 00:56:33,470 assets. And as Ethereum fluctuates, it 932 00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:36,710 just doesn't drop below that specific floor cuz there's a set 933 00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:41,140 of buyers that I just say okay. 30 grand or 50 grand for a for a 934 00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:43,740 crypto park is actually cheap, so whenever they drop the light 935 00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:46,100 below that price of USD terms, I'll just buy that. 936 00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:52,980 And what's the what is the impact of AI on all of this? 937 00:56:54,900 --> 00:56:59,500 So AI art is a category itself, I think is actually quite 938 00:56:59,740 --> 00:57:03,180 fascinating, and it's one that I'm actually very passionate 939 00:57:03,180 --> 00:57:05,700 about. Probably one of my favorite 940 00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:08,540 collections that's out there, if not my favorite. 941 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,480 Are the Lost Robbie's by Robbie Barrett fascinating story behind 942 00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,560 them and I mean it's very interesting to see whenever one 943 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:24,680 of these trades, typically they range in the let's call it 175, 944 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,880 eight to 308th range of of trade prices. 945 00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:34,320 It's very interesting to see a very visceral reaction of people 946 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,940 on Twitter about how. You know, some people just 947 00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:41,420 consider it completely, you know, disgusting or they they 948 00:57:41,420 --> 00:57:43,900 just don't don't get it. And I think when you look at 949 00:57:44,260 --> 00:57:47,020 pieces of art and and it actually has that like emotive 950 00:57:47,740 --> 00:57:50,340 capacity, you're probably looking at it what is quite a 951 00:57:50,340 --> 00:57:53,580 powerful piece of art. So I think as a as a category, 952 00:57:53,580 --> 00:57:56,940 it's fascinating again. In some ways it's similar to 953 00:57:57,300 --> 00:58:01,820 emergence of generative art where you're marrying the medium 954 00:58:01,820 --> 00:58:04,790 of the blockchain with art. I think it's very interesting 955 00:58:04,790 --> 00:58:05,830 here. This is the new Dawn. 956 00:58:05,830 --> 00:58:09,590 If you're marrying a medium of AI, the new emergent category 957 00:58:09,590 --> 00:58:13,350 with art as well. And I think as you transverse 958 00:58:13,350 --> 00:58:17,830 the art history timeline, you know in many years time they 959 00:58:17,830 --> 00:58:21,510 will actually be two seminal moments in in art, art history, 960 00:58:21,630 --> 00:58:24,830 being in a blockchain based art and AI based art as well. 961 00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:27,740 Yeah, exactly. And I think also the the 962 00:58:27,860 --> 00:58:31,980 blockchain based arts and AI based art feed into each other 963 00:58:31,980 --> 00:58:36,860 in a way because one of the biggest reasons, you know, it's 964 00:58:36,860 --> 00:58:40,700 generative arts and digital arts has been around for quite a long 965 00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:42,860 time. They just, they just never 966 00:58:42,860 --> 00:58:46,700 really, it's really hard to actually as a museum or as a 967 00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:49,940 collector to buy them, right. Like what are you actually 968 00:58:49,940 --> 00:58:53,590 buying? You know, are you buying a TV 969 00:58:53,590 --> 00:58:57,710 that's representing these images or you're buying a print out of 970 00:58:57,710 --> 00:58:59,310 that image? But you can print as many as you 971 00:58:59,310 --> 00:59:03,110 want there. And I think if you didn't have 972 00:59:03,110 --> 00:59:08,510 the blockchain, AI art would probably be less interesting cuz 973 00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:14,030 I think it would be AI graphics then as opposed to AI art 974 00:59:14,030 --> 00:59:16,830 because you can't say that this is an original and this is the 975 00:59:16,830 --> 00:59:18,470 one that I'm actually actually selling. 976 00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:24,220 So this is another reason why I think on chain art as a category 977 00:59:24,220 --> 00:59:28,140 is just gonna keep growing, cuz it's gonna be new things you can 978 00:59:28,140 --> 00:59:32,580 do, you know, new technologies come out, but it's now just a 979 00:59:32,580 --> 00:59:35,420 new medium. In the same way that you got 980 00:59:35,420 --> 00:59:39,300 painting and sculpting and performance art, now you've got 981 00:59:39,860 --> 00:59:44,220 on chain art as well. I think when you look as well 982 00:59:44,860 --> 00:59:47,780 like the Rafiq Annadal piece that's in the MoMA in New York 983 00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:50,340 at the moment, I mean, I saw it in person. 984 00:59:50,380 --> 00:59:53,180 It's AI generated. Absolutely fascinating, 985 00:59:53,180 --> 00:59:55,420 absolutely captivating. And you look at the people sat 986 00:59:55,420 --> 00:59:59,380 there for 20-30 minutes at a time, just taking it in, which 987 00:59:59,380 --> 01:00:03,700 just simply doesn't happen with traditional you know, painting 988 01:00:03,700 --> 01:00:06,100 medium for example that existed to date. 989 01:00:06,380 --> 01:00:10,900 So I think, you know we live in this attention economy and these 990 01:00:10,980 --> 01:00:13,580 artworks as an example of generative artwork. 991 01:00:13,580 --> 01:00:17,180 As you watch, watch it render in as part of the the fascinating 992 01:00:17,180 --> 01:00:18,820 engagement that you have with that work. 993 01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,760 In the same way, you know, the Rafiq piece is just it's utterly 994 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,560 captivating and it's taking art, I think, to a whole whole new 995 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,160 level. Cool. 996 01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,560 No, I really appreciate that. Maybe just a final question 997 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:32,520 here. So you know you talked in the 998 01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,800 beginning we talked quite a bit about you know different 999 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,880 categories and Ft's real world assets and you know how it like 1000 01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,160 so broad when he came to the actual you know NFT lending 1001 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,400 market is, is that still kind of all focused on some of these art 1002 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,560 and PFP type things. And hasn't yet reached to, you 1003 01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:51,920 know, all these new types of Nfts. 1004 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,080 Yeah. So I think there aren't that 1005 01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,440 many assets yet that are real world assets that are being 1006 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,840 represented like like Storm said, we speaking to a lot of 1007 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,400 people at the moment and and you know what happened in this last 1008 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,240 bull run is exactly what you'd expect, the fully native crypto 1009 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:17,420 assets that are. You know don't require high 1010 01:01:17,420 --> 01:01:22,660 transaction throughput, you know don't require a lot of speed and 1011 01:01:22,660 --> 01:01:26,540 and transaction capacity are the ones that found product market 1012 01:01:26,540 --> 01:01:29,100 fit. So art really right and some of 1013 01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:34,180 these peer P's so you're gonna seal them taking off and then 1014 01:01:34,180 --> 01:01:37,020 you saw all of this infrastructure being built out. 1015 01:01:37,020 --> 01:01:41,500 So you know, like we mentioned perps lending or you've got 1016 01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:44,540 indexes, you've got fractionalization, you've got 24 1017 01:01:44,540 --> 01:01:46,910 hour marketplaces. So now all of this 1018 01:01:46,910 --> 01:01:51,070 infrastructure has been built and a lot of teams saw the 1019 01:01:51,070 --> 01:01:54,950 potential there and then started, raised a bunch of money 1020 01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:58,710 and now started building out the infrastructure needed to bring 1021 01:01:58,710 --> 01:02:01,790 more of these real world assets on chain. 1022 01:02:02,550 --> 01:02:07,910 And so we started seeing some loans on these assets, so. 1023 01:02:09,140 --> 01:02:12,020 We've done some loans on some empty empty land. 1024 01:02:12,460 --> 01:02:15,900 You know, there's been some loans on Rolexes, you know so, 1025 01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:19,260 so these things are starting to happen, but there's just quite 1026 01:02:19,260 --> 01:02:23,940 a, there's just not that many assets yet that are that have 1027 01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:26,820 been pulled on chain as those grow. 1028 01:02:27,460 --> 01:02:30,340 You know, the ones that we really see taking off initially 1029 01:02:30,340 --> 01:02:34,140 are the ones that we said that are more collectible like. 1030 01:02:35,450 --> 01:02:37,810 Because there's a big overlap in the user base. 1031 01:02:37,810 --> 01:02:40,530 There's a the overlap in how they trade, there's an overlap 1032 01:02:40,530 --> 01:02:43,450 and how you price them. They all eat pretty liquid. 1033 01:02:43,770 --> 01:02:46,570 So the characteristics of those assets are quite similar. 1034 01:02:47,050 --> 01:02:51,530 I suspect once they come on chain, those assets actually 1035 01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:56,290 will be better collateral than most Nft's just because the 1036 01:02:56,290 --> 01:02:59,210 thing that's new is how you represent the asset. 1037 01:02:59,370 --> 01:03:03,210 But the asset itself has got a much longer trading history than 1038 01:03:03,570 --> 01:03:06,340 what? You know the new crop of crypto 1039 01:03:06,340 --> 01:03:12,300 native Nft's have so, so you'll much quicker see higher LTV, 1040 01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:15,580 lower APR, longer duration loans for these assets. 1041 01:03:16,020 --> 01:03:19,180 And I also think that there's quite a lot of collectors who 1042 01:03:19,180 --> 01:03:24,020 are sitting on quite a lot of value that they just can't 1043 01:03:24,020 --> 01:03:27,860 access at the moment. Because if you got a $50,000 1044 01:03:27,860 --> 01:03:31,140 watch, it's actually quite hard to get a loan from a bank on 1045 01:03:31,140 --> 01:03:33,040 that. You know, if you got a $50 1046 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,360 million painting, sure, you can do that. 1047 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,080 So you've got a $10 million super rare watch. 1048 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,560 You sure banks will kind of go to the the effort of actually 1049 01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,440 giving you a loan, but there's a huge amount of value in the, you 1050 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:49,160 know, 20 to $100,000 range that just basically sit there at the 1051 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,600 moment. So the the benefit of actually 1052 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,040 bringing these things on chain purely as a way to to 1053 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:59,400 collateralize it really becomes quite interesting. 1054 01:04:01,130 --> 01:04:04,730 I think broadly, you know alongside the tokenized 1055 01:04:04,730 --> 01:04:09,490 collectibles there it's probably 4 main categories of of real 1056 01:04:09,490 --> 01:04:12,170 world assets, one of which has mentioned is the tokenized 1057 01:04:12,170 --> 01:04:15,090 collectibles. You probably will start to have 1058 01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:21,290 tokenized equity and token positions essentially, so from 1059 01:04:21,290 --> 01:04:24,370 classic crypto investments. So that that I think that will 1060 01:04:24,370 --> 01:04:27,370 start to look quite interesting. A lot of other tokenized 1061 01:04:27,370 --> 01:04:32,240 financial assets, so bonds and stocks items like that. 1062 01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,040 And then you'll lastly also have tokenized real estate and real 1063 01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,760 assets. But of course the regulatory 1064 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:43,080 friction that comes with all of those items is much more 1065 01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:48,000 significant than tokenizing a comic or a trading card or a 1066 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,680 watch as an example. So I think those, but with that 1067 01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:55,640 being said, once we do get that regulatory unlock, you'd start 1068 01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:00,380 to then get like a very material addressable market of real world 1069 01:05:00,380 --> 01:05:04,220 assets on chain and accordingly then a material credit market 1070 01:05:04,220 --> 01:05:06,900 that sits alongside it. Cool. 1071 01:05:06,940 --> 01:05:09,660 Well, thanks so much guys, both for coming on. 1072 01:05:09,660 --> 01:05:14,020 I think this is really great overview of like NFC finance and 1073 01:05:14,020 --> 01:05:17,260 lending and you know I think it makes a lot of sense, right, 1074 01:05:17,260 --> 01:05:21,500 just the enormous thing that's ahead of us. 1075 01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:24,020 I'm excited to see how that's going to develop and how these 1076 01:05:24,020 --> 01:05:26,860 markets are going to evolve. And so, thanks so much for 1077 01:05:26,900 --> 01:05:28,280 joining us. Yeah, Yeah. 1078 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,560 We're excited. We're in, you know, we're in it 1079 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,400 for the long run. They could be say sometimes is 1080 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,680 where there's value, there's finance, right. 1081 01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,520 So you know as the the value of things represented by Nft's 1082 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,360 increases the the size of the the financial ecosystem around 1083 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,840 they will just grow in accordance. 1084 01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:49,840 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 1085 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:51,840 We release new episodes every week. 1086 01:05:52,550 --> 01:05:55,230 You can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, 1087 01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:58,270 YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever you're listening to podcasts. 1088 01:05:58,710 --> 01:06:01,390 And if you have a Google Home or Alexa device, you can tell it. 1089 01:06:01,390 --> 01:06:04,470 To listen to the latest episode of the Epicenter podcast, go to 1090 01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:07,630 epicenter.tv, Subscribe for a full list of places where you 1091 01:06:07,630 --> 01:06:09,870 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 1092 01:06:09,870 --> 01:06:12,350 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 1093 01:06:12,350 --> 01:06:15,430 inbox as they're released. If you want to interact with us 1094 01:06:15,790 --> 01:06:18,150 guests or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on 1095 01:06:18,150 --> 01:06:20,310 Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes. 1096 01:06:20,350 --> 01:06:22,430 It helps be behind the show, and we're always. 1097 01:06:22,550 --> 01:06:25,230 Happy to read them. So thanks so much and we look 1098 01:06:25,230 --> 01:06:26,350 forward to being back next week.