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The weapon, the epicenter the 
podcast for every interview 

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prep. 
The founders Bill. 

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Listen fault leaders about the 
future of crypto. 

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So I'm Brian Crane, and I'm here
with my hair, my hair. 

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Who's doing a comeback right 
from from his break from cancer,

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so, So amazing to have you back.
Thank you. 

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And we're going to speak with 
goon. 

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I mean guns are about Avalanche.
She's actually been on this 

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podcast 3 times 4 and maybe we 
can start off by briefly 

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mentioning the old episodes we 
did. 

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Because it was like, interesting
sort of through the Journey of 

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crypto. 
But before we get started, just 

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very briefly about two sponsors.
So first of all, I prefer steak 

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is transforming crypto and you 
can be a part of it, and you can

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start participating. 
Networks contribute to network 

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security owner and rewards by 
statement, of course one. 

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So we're staking provider with 
billions in assets. 

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Lots of customers on many 
different networks. 

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So if you're interested in 
running your own branded nodes, 

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you can also do that. 
You can go to the course of one 

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to learn about it. 
And then also Paris swap. 

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So Periscope, you can beat the 
market price and it's fast, 

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highly liquid. 
And they just launched every 

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five, which is a new contract 
new apis. 

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It's a modular infrastructure, 
more gas friendly, and supports 

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free food. 
It's using the theorem permit 

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and they also recently added 
support for other networks, like

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Avalanche. 
And yeah, polygons and PSC. 

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So you can go to Paris after I/O
and you can get started there. 

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And now with that, let's go to 
our episode spoon. 

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It's so great to have you. 
Thanks so much for coming back. 

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It's so great to be here. 
It's so great to see you both, 

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and they have so wonderful to be
talking to you again. 

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Is this fantastic? 
Thank you, hon. 

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I was I was looking through, 
like, preparing for this is 

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looking through the old episodes
we did. 

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And it's pretty interesting. 
So we did one in 2015 which was 

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around selfish mining together 
with etai. 

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So that was kind of one of the 
papers looking at, you know, 

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some maybe game-theoretic 
weaknesses or I'm proof of work 

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and Bitcoin and then we did 
another episode The same year, 

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which was about again you he 
tell you which is why I was 

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about Bitcoin in G and B Ko NG 
was basically this idea for how 

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to scale, you know, transaction 
to put on big coin, like by a 

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lot while basically keeping the 
consensus algorithm like 

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fundamentally unchanged. 
So I remember that. 

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And I was like, this is so 
elegant and really cool and like

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by like should like Implement on
bitcoin and and so maybe the 

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doing this episode if you dare 
and of course, that was a long. 

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What about this? 
This whole block size debate 

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and, you know, there was people 
like my current and guaranteed 

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reason and you like trying to 
get, like new ideas into 

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Bitcoin. 
So, you know, you are very 

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involved back then, and I think 
this were like, super 

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interesting discussions and then
you had another episode of you, 

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which was the year after 2016 
with Flats a together and it 

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was, right. 
So, and this thing had launched 

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on a theorem called the Dow, and
it has accumulated as a. 

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I 10% of all the Aether in 
there. 

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You guys wrote this blog post 
about like all your all the like

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design flaws and weaknesses of 
this vein and actually met had 

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also been like writing online 
about like, oh this is other 

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thing that's also flawed and I 
was like reading through this as

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a daily deal with this episode 
and then of course, right after 

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it's the biggest hack that 
happened in any theorems 

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history. 
Certainly in terms of the 

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percentage of the number of 
ether involved and that lent 

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then display. 
Of everything with plastic and 

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and what was also interesting at
a later point, you know the SEC 

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wrote this paper about the Dow 
being a security which was the 

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first kind of the first time 
they see really made a statement

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about how they view tokens and 
total sales. 

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So that was like the year after 
and one of the one of the 

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evidence that they quoted in 
this thing that this was a 

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security was what the way Flats 
a had described. 

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The curators in our episode. 
So, it's very cool that we had 

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like a podcast cited there. 
So, yeah, such great episodes. 

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We have q and, like, great 
discussions and then they spin 

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it for too long Gap. 
Given all the things I have is 

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no things that you've done, 
because it's been like, yeah, 

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you've done a huge amount 
following that, as well. 

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It's been a great ride. 
It's been a great ride. 

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We live through you. 
I don't know how many market 

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returns and downturns together, 
and but I Were the very first 

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episode when together it was by 
far the most informed by far the

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most challenging conversation. 
I had at that point and it was 

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fantastic. 
I was like, whoa, look at this. 

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These guys are asking all the 
right questions. 

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It was such a blast. 
But yeah, it's been five years. 

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I think since the last episode 
or something, right? 

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This is five years since 2016 
and there has been much that 

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that's happened layer to save 
calm and some gone ain't nothing

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ever goes away. 
Slayer to stuff come and kind of

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floundered. 
New layer ones are here. 

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There's another batch of 
competing competing projects, 

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lots and lots of excitement. 
The entire space has grown 

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tremendously is poised to grow 
even more. 

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And, you know, back when we last
talked. 

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It was just people like us. 
It was just just geeky geeky 

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people. 
And, and now it's just, I talked

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to a fund managers. 
I talked to and down and people 

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are in charge of and them once 
and so forth. 

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So it's a very different, you 
know, System out there and the 

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DAP system is thriving. 
I mean, we've come such a long 

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way. 
It's so fascinating. 

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And it's so great to come back 
to good, old friends and and 

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and, you know, chat about where 
we are today. 

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Indeed, indeed intervening five 
years. 

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Of course, the big story is has 
been Avalanche, right? 

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So I mean, the initial idea and 
white paper was from a team 

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called letting the rocket Labs, 
which the team remains Anonymous

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to this day as far as I'm I'm 
aware and then a month or two 

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after that white paper came out.
Came the announcement that 

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you'll be building it. 
And now we've built it, a new 

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shift it right following from 
Twitter. 

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I also saw that at some point 
while starting to build 

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Avalanche, you decided to take a
sabbatical from Cornell where 

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you were full professor. 
And when I saw that tweet, I was

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like, whoa, that must have been 
a big decision. 

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What was it like for you too? 
Take a break from being a 

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professional like, you know, 
being a full Professor there and

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embarking on a journey like 
this. 

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It was it was very 
straightforward. 

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Actually. 
Mary was very, very simple for 

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me because you know, as a 
professor you're constantly 

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coming. 
I was like that's a research 

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University or coming up with new
ideas. 

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You're coming up with with new 
ways of approaching problems. 

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And you are working with some of
the best and brightest people on

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the planet. 
So, so we do this and You don't 

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necessarily pay attention to 
product Market fit, right? 

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So, as a professor, you're there
for the academics, you're there 

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for the science. 
So you're trying to figure out 

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ways of advancing us. 
So, I worked on a bunch of other

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topics in the intervening five 
years. 

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So I worked on characterizing 
these centralization. 

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I worked on characterizing 
scalability. 

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I worked on a layer 2 protocol 
teach antichain. 

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That's really, really fast. 
I think it's the fastest layer 2

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protocol and At some point you 
work on something. 

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That is so big that as soon as 
you do it you go. 

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Okay. 
This is this is in this is 

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important and and so my whole 
life I had been in an educator, 

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I'd studied this stuff. 
I never thought consensus, 

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protocols could be fast. 
I never thought, Byzantine fault

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tolerance could be cheap and and
as soon as you know, we started 

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dealing with the Avalanche 
protocol, we notice that hey, 

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this is going to be big. 
It's So different from 

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everything that came before us 
and so different. 

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Even other academics don't 
understand just how important it

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is and in they can't even fit 
into their Frameworks because 

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it's just so much so much better
across so many direct 

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Dimensions. 
So as soon as I had that in my 

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hands, it was a very 
straightforward decision. 

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I decided to take a break from 
Cornell and I ended up taking 

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one year of leave of absence 
form. 

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The company started building it 
up shortly thereafter. 

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We Got some funding from 
Andreessen Horowitz and from 

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some crypto funds including poly
chain know Vol and others 

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initialized, you know, Alexis 
Ohanian Etc. 

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And so that was a great start 
and and then of course, after 

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that the rest is history. 
We launched about a year ago. 

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I think it's been 14 months. 
So we're only 13 or 14 months 

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old. 
It hasn't been that long at all.

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We're up there with the big 
boys. 

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We're up there with systems that
are far older than us. 

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And And it's been wonderful. 
And there, I can tell you 

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something else that you maybe 
don't know. 

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And this might be one of the, 
one of the places that that this

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comes out, but back, in 
September, this September, so, 

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three years after I took. 
Oh I should have mentioned. 

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I took a year of leave of 
absence. 

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I extended it for another year 
for two years. 

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Then I requested permission for 
a third year and Cornell doesn't

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allow typically like it never 
happens that they give you the 

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third year. 
They were nice enough. 

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Enough to give me the third 
year. 

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And then at the end of the third
year, last September, it was 

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time to make a decision. 
Go back to Cornell or, or stay 

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at Avalanche. 
Stay at Ava labs and work on 

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Avalanche and and I made the 
decision and the decision was 

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to, to be at Ava labs to not go 
back to Cornell. 

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So I've stepped down from my 
position at Cornell and gave up 

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my tenure and I'm full-time on 
Avalanche because I think that's

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clearly where the the future is 
that Clearly were the most 

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happening places when it comes 
to research and development on 

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blockchains. 
Let's talk about, I'd be like, 

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what makes Avalanche so unique 
and are there like, is it just 

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in your opinion? 
Is it just unequivocally better 

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than like everything else or 
like what are the trade-offs 

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that I want, has a consensus? 
Right. 

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So, the issue of trade-offs is 
very important, right? 

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And people always think, like, 
this is like, judeo Christian 

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values. 
Like, you can't have anything 

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for free. 
You have to give something up to

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get something, right? 
And, you know, that's typically 

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true, as long as you stay within
the same family of Technologies.

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So if the goal is to move a lot 
of Earth and you've got a small 

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shovel with a short handle and I
invent a big shovel with a 

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longer handle, you know, There's
a trade-off there. 

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We're using the same technology.
But as you make the shovel 

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bigger than it carries more 
weight, you need more strength 

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as you make the handle bigger 
than you. 

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Have to have even more strength,
Etc. 

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So that's fine. 
And then Along Comes somebody 

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with a steam shovel. 
That's a different technology 

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and it has it completely changes
the game. 

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It changes the game brings on 
the Industrial Revolution and 

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you go from like being a pleb 
with a little shovel in his hand

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to someone who can who can 
really We excavate the Earth. 

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So, in the case of avalanche are
there are there are trade-offs. 

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Obviously, there's always some 
trade-off, but across everything

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that people have ever, said, 
matters to them. 

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Avalanche is a huge step up. 
It is the third biggest 

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breakthrough in the space of 
distributed systems. 

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It is only the third time that 
somebody invented, a new family 

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of consensus, protocols, the 
first family classical 

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00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,600
consensus, it brought some 
tutoring Awards to the people 

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who I wish that field and all 
the hundreds of protocols that 

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followed all descend from that 
work. 

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So and everything that you hear 
that proof of stake today, that 

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isn't Avalanche is using a 
classical protocol. 

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Typically from 1999 sometimes 
from 1980s. 

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And so protocols, like polka 
dots, Saldana, Etc. 

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These are all using classical 
consensus in which all of the 

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validators collect information 
from all of the other 

227
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,400
validators. 
There is there is all to all 

228
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:42,300
Then there's M squared 
communication. 

229
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,100
So the second big breakthrough 
was proof-of-work mining. 

230
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,500
So Bitcoin and Satoshi came 
along. 

231
00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:51,400
And they did an amazing job. 
They changed the consensus 

232
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,200
protocol and I said, hey guys, 
there was a better way to do 

233
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,500
this. 
It's scales much better. 

234
00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,900
It's far more robust, except of 
course. 

235
00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:03,600
The problem is it consumes a lot
of lot of lot of power. 

236
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,900
A lot of electricity. 
An avalanche is the third 

237
00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:09,900
biggest breakthrough. 
It's it's efficient like 

238
00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:12,400
classical protocols. 
It doesn't have any mining in 

239
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:13,800
it. 
It doesn't consume energy. 

240
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,000
It doesn't leak money out of the
ecosystem to the miners and to 

241
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,800
the power companies and and at 
the same time it's fast. 

242
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,200
The latency is are incredibly 
low. 

243
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,800
We're getting confirmation, 
latency is of 750 Ms. These 

244
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,700
days. 
These are insanely fast speeds. 

245
00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:36,300
Nobody ever comes close. 
So so that's part of The magic 

246
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:39,800
that makes it really, really 
fast and what are the 

247
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,600
trade-offs? 
I think there's always some 

248
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,900
trade-off maybe, but because 
you're going from some crappy 

249
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:49,800
technology to a much better 
technology, you can be better 

250
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,400
than what came before you on 
every metric. 

251
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,600
That matters. 
The when people ask me, what the

252
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,700
biggest downside is of 
avalanche. 

253
00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:00,900
I do need to be as a scientist. 
We need to be upfront with are 

254
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,100
our weaknesses. 
The biggest weakness is that 

255
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,500
it's a new product. 
All it's not as well established

256
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,700
as say Bitcoin is it's not as 
well as stablished as classical.

257
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:15,600
Protocols are so you know, let's
say the salon the protocol 

258
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,700
behind Solana. 
It's incredibly well understood.

259
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,500
So you should be able to write 
that stuff and get it. 

260
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:23,400
Correct. 
You should be able to operate 

261
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,200
that Network without downtime 
forever. 

262
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,900
After it's not very hard. 
You can get a master student to 

263
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,100
write that code. 
It's doable but Avalanche 

264
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:35,200
requires a little bit of, you 
know, a little bit more complex.

265
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,200
The and, and a little bit more 
nuanced, and no one has ever 

266
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,500
done anything, like it before. 
So, there are risks associated 

267
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:44,400
with new protocols. 
I would say that that's the 

268
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,000
first one. 
And is it better than other 

269
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,500
protocols across all Dimensions,
know if you have a highly 

270
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:55,000
centralized network. 
If you have a network consisting

271
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,200
of, let's say up to ten, nodes 
may be up to 20 nodes. 

272
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,500
Then all to all communication, 
might be better than Avalanche 

273
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:07,200
Style. 
Ation, so 10 squared is not a 

274
00:15:07,208 --> 00:15:10,400
very high number. 
So if you got 10 validators, 

275
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,200
then you probably should use 
like you can use an old-school 

276
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,200
protocol like tender Mentor 
Solana or whatever. 

277
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,600
So if all the decisions are 
being made by a small set of 

278
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,200
nodes, then you don't want the 
the the Avalanche complexity. 

279
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:28,300
And in fact, Avalanche might be 
slower because of the way it 

280
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,300
operates. 
It might be just better to have 

281
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:34,200
a multi round a fixed number of 
rounds. 

282
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,900
Three rounds. 
Overall total communication, 

283
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,600
which is what pbft would do in 
such a scenario. 

284
00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:44,600
So, so on the very low end 
Avalanche might be not suitable 

285
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,300
for you, but the magic of 
avalanches, as you add more 

286
00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:52,300
validators, as you build truly 
decentralized systems, then it 

287
00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:55,000
outshines the competition by a 
mile and a half. 

288
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:58,700
So it scales differently. 
And if you have thousands of 

289
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:01,800
validators, it's so much better 
than than the alternative than 

290
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,600
the classical protocols. 
So, often times I hear that one 

291
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,300
of the one of the downsides of 
avalanche is that bridging to 

292
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:18,000
Avalanche is hard and eventually
everything like the way to 

293
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,400
bridge two, Avalanche is to 
build trust and bridges and 

294
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,100
actually the bridge between it 
helium. 

295
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,700
And Avalanche is actually a 
multiset bridge which has been 

296
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:30,000
secured by SG X, which is 
essentially a set of signers 

297
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,900
running. 
A burning a bridge. 

298
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,300
Do you think there is any 
grounds too? 

299
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,700
Maybe that Avalanche consensus 
makes bridging hard into the 

300
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:42,000
ecosystem. 
Other change. 

301
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,400
That's an interesting question. 
So, okay, so there is a lot to 

302
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,100
unpack there. 
So let me try to unpack it. 

303
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:53,000
I think some of the first part 
of what you said derives from 

304
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,800
our first Bridge. 
So for the longest time, we were

305
00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,300
using a conventional bridge that
is residing on the theorem an 

306
00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:04,900
avalanche and the etherium side 
was executing on chain. 

307
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,800
So it was a regular Change the 
regular bridge from chain safe. 

308
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,800
And in fact, it's a chain. 
It's a bridge that's used by 

309
00:17:11,808 --> 00:17:13,599
quite a few other protocols 
besides us. 

310
00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:15,400
We found that it was quite 
fragile. 

311
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,599
And at times there were some 
issues with it that that we were

312
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:24,099
aware of that could have cost, 
you know, a lot of a lot of 

313
00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:26,500
coins to other people who are 
using the same Bridge. 

314
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:30,200
So it's at some point we 
decided, hey, we need to ditch 

315
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,600
this thing. 
And we need to go to a much 

316
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,300
better foundation. 
So we built an entirely 

317
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:39,400
different kind of Of bridge 
based on a very different kind 

318
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,900
of technology for secure 
execution. 

319
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:46,300
As you mentioned is called sgx. 
It ensures that the bridge, 

320
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,300
operator cannot modify the code 
of the bridge. 

321
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,700
The bridge operator cannot gain 
access to information that's 

322
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:56,900
stored inside the bridge, in 
particular, the bridge operator 

323
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:01,300
cannot access via the all too 
important secret, which controls

324
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:03,000
all the funds that are in the 
bridge. 

325
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,300
So the bridge can only do one 
function. 

326
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,300
It's got a hash. 
If it's code, and as long as 

327
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:13,600
that hash remains unchanged, the
bridge can do only one function,

328
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,000
which is take your funds on the 
theorem and give them to you on 

329
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,500
Avalanche and vice versa. 
The purging job. 

330
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,400
So that's a first of its kind of
bridge ever since we installed 

331
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,200
it ever since we made it public.
We've got nothing but huge. 

332
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,700
Praise. 
I believe it is the smoothest 

333
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,700
bridging experience out there. 
It's fast. 

334
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,600
It's super cheap because nothing
almost Happens on the etherium 

335
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,900
side. 
You just have to send your funds

336
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:42,200
to the bridge address. 
So it's just a single 

337
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,600
transaction. 
It's a very simple, simple 

338
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,500
transaction, very very gas. 
Efficient very, very low cost. 

339
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:51,600
So so our Bridge has been 
getting praise from everybody. 

340
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,100
There is also a meme going 
around, good bridging. 

341
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,500
So GMG be every morning. 
There is a point that somebody 

342
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:02,700
issued to all the bridge users 
called GB, and it's fantastic to

343
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,000
have that as well. 
So the bridge has really been 

344
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,500
good and one. 
Consent misconception. 

345
00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:12,300
I want to correct. 
Is it's true that the the key 

346
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:18,200
Secret inside the bridge is 
divided split and distributor to

347
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,500
four different, what we call 
wardens of the bridge. 

348
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:25,300
And the reason for that is not 
technological necessity. 

349
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:29,100
So if we wanted to, we could 
make the bridge completely 

350
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:33,000
trustless when you could just 
have it operate as a black box 

351
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,100
secured by sgx. 
The key is only inside the And 

352
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:40,000
it's nowhere else. 
But that's a little risky. 

353
00:19:40,100 --> 00:19:43,100
This is brand-new technology. 
We just built it. 

354
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,900
We are really proud of it. 
Nobody else else has anything 

355
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:47,700
like it. 
A lot of other coins are coming 

356
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:50,100
to us right now and saying, hey,
can we use your bridge by the 

357
00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:54,200
way? 
And but you can if you do this 

358
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,800
thing that I mentioned which is 
where you where you keep the 

359
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,100
private key only inside the 
bridge, then if something goes 

360
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,400
wrong, if there's a bug in the 
bridge, if there is some Miss 

361
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,700
execution, for whatever reason, 
then you Get into a situation 

362
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:10,600
that you cannot recover from and
that would be terrible. 

363
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:15,800
So So to avoid that, what we did
is we simply say, look, there's 

364
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,600
some some secret here. 
It's going to control some 

365
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,100
funds. 
We will split it up and divide 

366
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:26,300
it to Independent parties. 
So that in case something bad 

367
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:29,900
happens, then those same parties
can reconstitute the secret and 

368
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,900
get back at the funds. 
It's a Safety and Security 

369
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:34,400
measure. 
It's not a technological 

370
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,300
necessity. 
The bridge is true. 

371
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:40,300
Is not trusted, or can be made 
completely, not trusted. 

372
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,700
And the secret can be made 
completely local but as 

373
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,800
dangerous. 
So for a while to come, I plan 

374
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,800
to run the bridge in this 
current configuration where the 

375
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,500
secret is, is distributed to 
multiple parties. 

376
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,700
They are all independent. 
They are, you know, they've been

377
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,500
chosen not to not to be not to 
collude with each other. 

378
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,600
Some of the new parties were 
platinum. 

379
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,500
Silver plan to expand that set 
of parties, by the way, and we 

380
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:09,000
plan to bring in just The quite 
a few bigger players. 

381
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,500
So but we are very happy with 
the bridge and how it turned 

382
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:14,600
out. 
I think it's represents the best

383
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,300
of the bridging Technologies out
there. 

384
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,000
The cheapest for sure. 
Definitely. 

385
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,600
So I mean, when you look at like
the history of bridges in this, 

386
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,900
in this ecosystem, I mean, in 
the beginning, the idea behind 

387
00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:33,000
many of these Bridges was that 
Chains would verify each other's

388
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,500
consensus. 
And then this chain and chain be

389
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:43,100
and then some event X happens on
chain B, and then you can submit

390
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:46,300
like a cryptographic proof on 
chain a and chain. 

391
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,500
A can verify that cryptographic 
proof that event X happened on 

392
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:54,400
chain B, and then it can take a 
dependent action-y based on that

393
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,700
proof. 
So we started off with that 

394
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:01,700
notion, generally and then and 
then what happened was like the 

395
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:06,500
space accelerated so fast that 
in reality, nobody could. 

396
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,300
Implement, these kinds of 
schemes at a good enough level 

397
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:15,200
to be used commercially. 
So everything boils down into 

398
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,700
having, you know, like 5 signers
or ten signers or 20 signers. 

399
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,800
And that includes the bridge 
between Solana etherium. 

400
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,500
Like many bridges around. 
The ecosystem are based on 

401
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,200
signers, you know, some group of
parties that are selected by 

402
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:34,600
usually the foundations of the 
change that are bridging and 

403
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,900
then these designers are 
possessing these keys and their 

404
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:41,000
multisig accounts on both sides 
and they're doing the bridging. 

405
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:46,700
And now of course, Avalanche has
done a like a very big, you 

406
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:50,200
know, operational Improvement on
that set up by having the code 

407
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,800
of the signers run inside sgx 
enclaves, where some guarantees 

408
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,300
can be made about these enclaves
subject to the overall security 

409
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:01,900
of sgx itself, which is, which 
has been a matter of debate in 

410
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:06,500
the general computer science and
cryptography Community for 10. 

411
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,000
15 years. 
Should we use sgx at? 

412
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,000
All? 
Right, like, but Avalanche has 

413
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,200
implemented that into sgx. 
But do you see in the future? 

414
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,800
A new generation of bridges 
coming between say, 3? 

415
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,700
Mm, and Avalanche where it 
doesn't depend on signers. 

416
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,300
We're protecting something else 
Beyond signers or are signers 

417
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:34,500
really the edge of human 
knowledge and the game is about 

418
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:36,400
making designers more and more 
secure. 

419
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,000
Sure, and that's about all we 
can do today, right? 

420
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,800
Very good question. 
So, so first of all, let me 

421
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,400
handle the the immediate 
question, which is so, what's 

422
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,700
really going on behind behind 
the bridge. 

423
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,000
Well, what's going on is you 
need to make sure that something

424
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,700
happened on chain a and 
therefore, authorize a 

425
00:23:57,708 --> 00:24:00,200
corresponding action on chain, 
be, right. 

426
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,100
So Brian brought is cash over on
chain a and now we have to give 

427
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:08,400
him rap tokens. 
Chain the or vice versa. 

428
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,200
He brought his rep tokens over. 
We have to give him the original

429
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,400
coins. 
And so you need to establish 

430
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,600
whether or not consensus took 
place. 

431
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,500
And so there are different 
techniques for doing this. 

432
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:23,000
Depending on on what your 
underlying technology is, but it

433
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,300
all comes down to collecting 
signatures. 

434
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000
As you pointed out. 
Ideally, you would want to 

435
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,700
collect signatures from 
everybody on one side, who's 

436
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:35,800
affected, right? 
So, so only Theory em, everybody

437
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,900
who matters. 
Is believes that Brian brought 

438
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:41,200
his coins over and then 
therefore corresponding action 

439
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,600
should be, should be authorized.
So, so that's a good question. 

440
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800
So how do you do that? 
It's hard to determine everybody

441
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,300
who matters, it's hard to. 
It's also very, very costly to 

442
00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:55,700
collect signatures from 
everybody on Earth. 

443
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,700
If you try to do it, then this 
act of collecting signatures can

444
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,300
itself become a security hole 
because suddenly people can can 

445
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:06,400
Dahl's You by asking you to sign
a whole bunch of things? 

446
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:11,100
So, so it's a, it's a dangerous.
I mean, it's a complicated game 

447
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,900
to play at some point. 
Most everybody realized. 

448
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,800
Hey, there are only a few 
people, not few. 

449
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,100
But there are only so many 
people on each chain that that 

450
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:25,700
that really matter like buying 
ads matters if by Nance believes

451
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:27,500
that Brian brought his Fun's 
over. 

452
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:31,600
That's important, - probably 
don't matter all that much. 

453
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,900
But, you know, the lava lava 
lamps Foundation. 

454
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,500
Toads. 
Yeah, that's It's Avalanche, 

455
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:42,000
Foundation notes, that matters. 
So there are there are some 

456
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,200
people are some notes that you 
can identify as as being 

457
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,800
important in that ecosystem and 
you can piggyback your decisions

458
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,700
on them. 
And that's what most people have

459
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:55,500
been doing. 
Can we can we get to a mode 

460
00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:58,700
where we don't have these? 
I think it's hard man there 

461
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:03,400
because if you do like as you 
start pulling everybody, then 

462
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,600
that is a lot of cost for Buddy 
and depending on how the bridges

463
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,400
are used that, you know that 
those requests might be too way 

464
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,100
too many in Lumber. 
There are people working on less

465
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:21,400
trusted Bridges. 
Like XLR is working on one and 

466
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:23,800
there are many others actually, 
currently, looking at various 

467
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,700
different Technologies for 
making that execution, faster or

468
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:32,700
cheaper or more interoperable, 
but I don't know of anybody who 

469
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,600
will be able to beat the 
efficiency of an SG, X 

470
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,100
implemented. 
Execution technology. 

471
00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:42,400
Now second Point iran-related 
tangent and I think I can say 

472
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,500
this, I because I'm an academic 
academics love. 

473
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:49,100
What do they love? 
They love intellectual 

474
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:50,600
challenges. 
Let's put it that way. 

475
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,900
They'll of tying their hands 
behind their back and solving 

476
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,400
something that's, you know, that
that you can easily solve if you

477
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,200
had both hands open, but now 
that you had one hand behind 

478
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,300
your back, it's a different. 
They love these Sunday, puzzles 

479
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:08,100
and secure secure. 
You're bridging or secure 

480
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:12,400
execution, in an environment 
where nobody has any hardware 

481
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,600
support is really hard. 
It's so challenging and there 

482
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,000
are so many academics out there 
that made a living out of this. 

483
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:23,500
They devoted their careers to 
these kinds of problems. 

484
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:27,000
What other product kinds of 
problems that they devote their 

485
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,400
lives to you know, there is 
somebody out there that we all 

486
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,700
look up to. 
We love and spent a lot of time 

487
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,500
multiple years, solving the 
problem. 

488
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:40,800
Oval either neither assignment 
leader, election and ID 

489
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,000
assignment in a, in a network 
that's organized, like a ring 

490
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:48,500
where none of us have unique 
IDs. 

491
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,100
Okay. 
So so imagine. 

492
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:54,100
So, you know, essentially 
saying, look, there might, well,

493
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:55,900
be networks where we're talking 
the ring. 

494
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:58,400
I can only talk to my right 
neighbor and left neighbor. 

495
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,200
I need to elect a leader and 
everybody else needs to sit. 

496
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,000
You like the same leader, and 
none of us have IDs. 

497
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,500
And this, you know, this gets 
Maybe hundreds of papers. 

498
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,600
It's a really interesting 
problem and it's really hard to 

499
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,900
solve it turns out. 
But you know how, I people how 

500
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:16,700
we solve this problem in real 
life. 

501
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:19,600
We just look inside the ethernet
card. 

502
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,700
Every ethernet card has a unique
number. 

503
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Okay, the industry makes sure. 
It's Unique. 

504
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,500
That's your unique ID. 
It was assigned to you. 

505
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:28,500
We're done. 
Just a little tiny bit of 

506
00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:33,500
Hardware support, just obviated 
years of research, you know, 

507
00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:36,100
once you have that unique number
leader election is incredibly 

508
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,500
It'll all of that work 
disappears. 

509
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:42,100
So now if you go to someone like
this, who's spent many years 

510
00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:44,300
build trying to build 
complicated, protocols and 

511
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:46,600
algorithms and so forth. 
And you say look I've got this 

512
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,700
chip. 
It does secure execution. 

513
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,300
All your work, you know, it's 
kind of silly. 

514
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:55,700
They will react and say well 
that's got issues with it. 

515
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:57,600
Blah, blah blah. 
Yeah, of course, it's got issues

516
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,200
with it s GX has been broken a 
few times and every time it gets

517
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,200
broken. 
You know, what, how long does it

518
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,100
take? 
It takes two days and then 

519
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,000
Within Days until has a patch 
for sgx. 

520
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,600
So I wouldn't listen to these 
academics. 

521
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,600
All that much, their nihilus. 
Nothing is good enough. 

522
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,300
I could demux are by Nature just
like those people in The Big 

523
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:20,500
Lebowski, they believe in 
nothing, right? 

524
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:24,300
So remember the Nile is there 
and nothing is nothing, could be

525
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,700
good enough and they always 
worry about the worst case. 

526
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,600
Now, the bridge, of course, is a
situation where you do have to 

527
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,600
worry about the worst case. 
But starting with the premise 

528
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400
that the hardware is unhelpful 
is a silly story. 

529
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:39,800
Starting point. 
So imagine trying to do, imagine

530
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,800
trying to dispose in back in the
60s. 

531
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,800
There were people who were 
trying to do multitasking on on 

532
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,400
regular computers, and it's 
really hard and they developed a

533
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,700
lot of cool techniques and they 
were all proud of them and and 

534
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,000
you know, multics was doing cool
stuff and so on. 

535
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,200
But then the chip manufacturers 
come to you and say, hey we 

536
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,300
added a feature, we added the a 
way to save your register set 

537
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:04,500
atomically. 
And then suddenly all these 

538
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:06,400
tricks that these people 
developed are silly. 

539
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,500
And you just use that primitive 
to build a system like Unix and 

540
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,600
the rest is history. 
Things just take off. 

541
00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:17,700
So do we need the complexity of 
all these complicated things? 

542
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,400
No, I don't think we do. 
And then final third rant on 

543
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,100
this topic. 
I think you are, you are right 

544
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:25,800
on when you point out the 
importance of bridges. 

545
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,400
I think the next year is going 
to be a battle of bridges. 

546
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,700
Not the war. 
The war is various is really 

547
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:33,500
big. 
There is like multiple fronts to

548
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,800
that war, but the battle is 
going to be with Bridging and 

549
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:41,500
you'll see, at least a half, a 
dozen, new bridge Technologies, 

550
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:45,800
come to the scene and the chains
with the best Bridges. 

551
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,300
The most fluid experience, the 
best user experience. 

552
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:51,300
The cheapest experience are 
going to win and they will get 

553
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,500
the TV L as we've been seeing in
the case of avalanche. 

554
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,900
So. 
So we're uniquely situated in 

555
00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:59,500
that battle. 
And we have by far the best 

556
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:03,500
technology and it's going to be 
fun to see other people try to 

557
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,400
replicate what we've done. 
And it'll be, it'll be 

558
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,200
Interesting. 
So that's that's the next year 

559
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,800
coming up. 
I'm glad about very, very happy 

560
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,300
about where we are. 
And I just want to give you a 

561
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:17,700
readers or listeners a heads-up 
about what to expect. 

562
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,300
There will be lots and lots of 
cool, cool Bridge bridges, come 

563
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:22,800
online. 
There will be some spectacular 

564
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Bridge failures every now and 
then and it's going to be a fun 

565
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,800
ride. 
Cool. 

566
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,500
That was sad. 
That was really, really great. 

567
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,000
And I think that makes a lot of 
sense. 

568
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,900
One thing. 
I also wanted to speak about it.

569
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:40,000
So the topic I've been thinking 
more about this topic of Mev, 

570
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:43,200
right? 
So it may be on, on a theorem, 

571
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,000
of course, basically - ordering 
transactions. 

572
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,300
Using, basically, they're sort 
of Monopoly over this block 

573
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:51,900
space to do things. 
And then, you know, now there's 

574
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:55,900
been there's like no daps that 
try to mitigate that or, you 

575
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,000
know, flashcards has tried to 
deal with it. 

576
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,900
And it's interesting what that 
looks like in a non proof of 

577
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,300
work system in a proof of stake 
system or and improve different 

578
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,900
consensus algorithm to That I 
think affect this. 

579
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,400
So I'm curious. 
Like, what, what are your 

580
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,400
thoughts on? 
Mev, on Avalanche? 

581
00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:19,500
What's a, what's a great 
question? 

582
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:22,600
I've worried so much about Mev 
really, really, really 

583
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,100
interesting field. 
So for people who are listening,

584
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:28,700
so M even is this thing by which
participants to your protocol 

585
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:34,100
can jump in and an extract. 
Some value by jumping ahead of 

586
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:37,500
other other natural transactions
occurring in the system. 

587
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,700
You see somebody trying to buy 
something on. 

588
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:43,800
Say, you only swap use you, you 
jump ahead of them, you purchase

589
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,700
purchase ahead from them, and 
then I had ahead of them and L 

590
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,300
to them. 
And, you know, that's the simple

591
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:53,000
kind of, you can sandwich their 
trades, you can do all sorts of 

592
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,600
things to extract value on 
Avalanche. 

593
00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:00,400
So there are multiple different 
Avalanche deployments or 

594
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,000
Avalanche protocol. 
So protocols in the Avalanche 

595
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,600
family and so on till I would 
say maybe June or so. 

596
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,800
Yeah until about four months ago
or so five months ago or so. 

597
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:16,300
We used a version of our 
protocol where anybody could 

598
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:19,100
propose. 
A block in any slot. 

599
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Okay, so, completely leaderless 
and and so actually the current 

600
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,900
protocol were using a still 
completely leaderless. 

601
00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:28,900
It's still true. 
What I said is still true, but 

602
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:31,800
we added an optimization. 
So back in June, we added an 

603
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,000
optimization and it's been a 
game changer. 

604
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,800
If you use the initial Avalanche
protocol with, where anybody can

605
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:44,400
come in at any time, then then a
single Mev extractor with a 

606
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
single steak. 
So, Brian comes along. 

607
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:53,400
Size 11 units of steak and, and 
he starts doing whatever he 

608
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,700
does. 
He can jump in, and he can jump 

609
00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,200
ahead of any transaction in any 
block. 

610
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,900
Okay, so that's, that's what 
could have happened in that 

611
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:05,700
protocol and that's what was 
happening in that protocol. 

612
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,300
And and we got the ID, we could 
be heard from the Grapevine. 

613
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,500
That there was some people, 
extracting multiple thousands of

614
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,800
dollars per day, maybe thirty 
thousand dollars per day, Etc, 

615
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,300
from the system, this pay Al's 
in comparison to what can happen

616
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:21,400
on a chain like, etherium only 
Theory. 

617
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,199
Mm. 
Many millions are being 

618
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,400
extracted via Mev per day. 
There is a lot of money being 

619
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,100
made by the miners because the 
miners are in a unique position 

620
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:38,199
to to jump in at any time. 
So, on Avalanche, that we 

621
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,000
noticed that this could have 
been a problem. 

622
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:43,400
We immediately. 
Applied an optimization where we

623
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,199
slightly favored, a given given 
proposer. 

624
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,500
In every slot. 
So, you know, so proposal, you 

625
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,100
know, 37, let's say Brian gets 
slot 37. 

626
00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:59,100
He gets a slight advantage in 
slot 37, but otherwise, he needs

627
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:01,100
to be in line. 
There are maybe another 

628
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:05,500
thousand, you know, miners our 
supposed acres and rotation. 

629
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,400
So that suddenly reduced 
people's ability to jump in. 

630
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,800
And and so that has had an 
immense effect, the amount of 

631
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,600
Mev extracted. 
Avalanche, I haven't 

632
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,900
characterized it, but has I 
believe it has dropped down 

633
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:26,600
significantly by multiple orders
of magnitude and and also it 

634
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,900
creates a nice Dynamic if you 
want to be in the Mev extraction

635
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:32,800
game. 
Now, you have to buy a lot of of

636
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,600
Acts take and and participate in
consensus as a first-time 

637
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,400
consensus member. 
So that's been, that's been a 

638
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,900
great change and and it made the
protocol even more resilient. 

639
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:49,000
But at the end of the day there 
is one Fence against Mev 

640
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,100
extraction. 
That is there's 

641
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:55,300
incontrovertible. 
It's the best defense and that 

642
00:35:55,300 --> 00:36:00,500
is, if you have a fast protocol,
then Mev extraction becomes 

643
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,000
really hard. 
So when your protocol is 

644
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,100
lagging, let's say 15 seconds 
behind the real time, like it is

645
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:11,000
with, with etherium. 
Then there's so much Mev to 

646
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,100
extract, you know, the future 
right people submitted 

647
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,200
transactions, 15 seconds ago and
there you are. 

648
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,600
About the craft your block as a 
minor in etherium and you can do

649
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,000
whatever you want because you 
know how the prices changed in 

650
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,000
the intervening seconds. 
And in the case of avalanche. 

651
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,500
We are by far the fastest chain 
where the only chain that goes 

652
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:37,900
from submission to completion in
less than a second. 

653
00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:43,600
Our time to finality is 750 Ms. 
These days. 

654
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,200
So we go from initial injection 
to being completely done with 

655
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:51,900
The transaction in the blink of 
to, to just two blinks of the I.

656
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,700
So, like you do this and it's 
done. 

657
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:58,800
And so it's so fast that the 
value to be extracted, is much 

658
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,000
lower. 
That's at least an order of 

659
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,700
magnitude faster than then other
chains. 

660
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,200
So it's an order of magnitude 
faster than a theorem is an 

661
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,200
order of magnitude faster than 
Solana. 

662
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:13,300
So, that's, that's how you, I 
think, eliminate most of the 

663
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,000
Mev. 
And then these other 

664
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,900
optimizations at the protocol 
level. 

665
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
They create a nice Dynamic, 
whatever remaining value, there 

666
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,600
might be goes down 
substantially. 

667
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:27,900
So we've we've done. 
We've done a bunch of things as 

668
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,000
I mentioned. 
So we are naturally I think 

669
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,600
possess low value and with just 
a small optimization. 

670
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,300
We managed to turn the game 
upside down and force the Mev 

671
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:43,500
extractors to have to hold a lot
of steak, which is a great thing

672
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:45,300
for the all. 
Vox token Alders. 

673
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,500
So, I mean back when Avalanche 
was very early on, right. 

674
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:57,500
So one of the things that I that
I loved about avalanches that it

675
00:37:57,500 --> 00:38:01,500
was the first, like, leaderless 
answers algorithm by which I 

676
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:04,300
want to be mean, when you said 
leaderless consensus, algorithm 

677
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,600
in Bitcoin, every 10 minutes is 
a winning minor and the winning 

678
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,200
minor as a block. 
And then it can put transactions

679
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,800
into the block and it has full, 
you know, soul. 

680
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,100
Volition about which transaction
it puts in and then then came a 

681
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:24,300
generation of proof of stake, 
protocols, which includes tender

682
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:27,300
meant? 
Which includes Savannah which 

683
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:30,700
adopted, you know, these other 
family of consensus algorithms 

684
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:34,300
that you mentioned earlier. 
Based, usually on practical 

685
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:39,400
Byzantine fault, tolerance from 
1999, where where there's again 

686
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,800
a leader and that leader keeps 
rotating and there's a leader 

687
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,200
schedule where you know, who the
Leader is going to be and 

688
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,200
whoever is the leader can put 
transactions in the block and 

689
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,900
can can order them. 
And in avalanche. 

690
00:38:55,100 --> 00:39:00,800
What was very, very impressive, 
like very early on was that is 

691
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,900
anyone can propose a block? 
And then the network can will 

692
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:09,600
come to consensus on one of the 
blocks and it will discard the 

693
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,900
other blocks, but this consensus
will be built ground up by the 

694
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:18,000
polling that's done by. 
By the various nodes themselves 

695
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,700
and then it seems like what 
happened this seems like what 

696
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:29,000
happened was that when anyone 
can propose a block then maybe 

697
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,600
the network could split into 
validators that are naive that 

698
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,100
are not able to not trying to 
extract any. 

699
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:37,600
We at all, because they're just 
downloading some software 

700
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,400
running it. 
And then, there are like some 

701
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,900
very sharp validators at a 
trying to extract the. 

702
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:44,000
Mev. 
They can try to position 

703
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,200
themselves in the network. 
In ways that they can influence 

704
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,900
which block ends up becoming 
finalized and they can try to 

705
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:57,700
extract a movie and to sort of 
defend against that Avalanche 

706
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:00,200
has somewhat of a leader 
schedule. 

707
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,600
Now except that maybe leader 
scheduling is not as strict. 

708
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:07,300
As you know, you notate the mint
Enderman. 

709
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:10,800
It's very defined is L then 
equally valuable. 

710
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,300
Whereas an avalanche. 
It's like well if it's a then B 

711
00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:18,100
then C. 
But if, if a proposes that they 

712
00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:24,100
have an advantage, but if it 
doesn't send the block, then X 

713
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,800
or Y could send the block and 
there's will get accepted. 

714
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,200
It is exactly. 
It is a completely leader 

715
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,100
schedule. 
Yeah, and so, with this week, 

716
00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:35,000
leader schedule, what what's 
happening is sort of like, 

717
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:40,500
Avalanche in my mind, is kind of
like, becoming equivalent 2010 

718
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,600
DeMint or Solana or each to in 
terms of Mev, because They still

719
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,100
socially me. 
No. 

720
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,100
No, it's or we become 
equivalent. 

721
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:53,100
No, let me see. 
Let me think about that. 

722
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,000
I mean some sense in some sense.
So is that what's happening now?

723
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,300
I thought about this before and 
my conclusion back, then was no 

724
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,800
it's going to forever be a 
different profile and hang on 

725
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,500
but I do need to recreate my. 
My thinking, one of the things I

726
00:41:10,508 --> 00:41:13,200
love about talking to you guys, 
is that we just kind of talked 

727
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,800
so I didn't come into this 
knowing what questions. 

728
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,600
Would ask me so so bear with me 
as I try to think this up on the

729
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,300
spot. 
So if if we were to take a look 

730
00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:29,400
at a system, like whatever 
tender meant, let's say versus 

731
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,600
versus Avalanche with with the 
week leaders in place. 

732
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,900
Then ya know there that that's 
true that the week leaders, do 

733
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:43,300
give an advantage to a chosen 
person per slot. 

734
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,800
That's definitely true. 
And in that That sense we are 

735
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,800
similar to what's happening on 
other chains, the, there's still

736
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,600
a huge difference between being 
a chain. 

737
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,800
That takes, let's say, you know,
in the case of Solana like 15 to

738
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,500
20 seconds to I think 12 
seconds. 

739
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:03,400
Whatever. 
The number is 12 12 to 20 

740
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,100
seconds to finalize versus a 
system. 

741
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:10,000
Like Avalanche has taken less 
than a second to finalize. 

742
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:16,400
So that's a huge reduction in 
Mev The Entity that can Direct 

743
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,700
Mev does change. 
And in a leaderless system, 

744
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,900
anyone can extract Mev at any 
time and with a weak leader. 

745
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,200
Then there is a, there's a 
dedicated person was a 

746
00:42:27,207 --> 00:42:30,800
designated person who is in a 
favorite position per slot and 

747
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,700
other people will find it very 
difficult to extract Mev. 

748
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:38,300
So I think that change that 
optimization for Avalanche with 

749
00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:41,800
weak leaders was a good one. 
It drastically reduced, the 

750
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,800
amount of Mev extraction. 
It changes the way you extract. 

751
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:49,900
Mev as well. 
So anyway, you know, we can talk

752
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:54,200
about this at length and the 
bottom line is, you know, what's

753
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,700
the slippage you get? 
When you go to Avalanche, when 

754
00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:59,400
you go to, you know, you've 
bridged over, you're going to 

755
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,000
use Pangolin instead of uni 
swap. 

756
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,300
We're gonna use Trader Joe or 
Yeti swap or kind of canary, or 

757
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,800
whatever, instead of whatever 
people were using on etherium. 

758
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,000
So, what's what's the slippage? 
You get who jumps ahead of you 

759
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,800
and and how much how much worse 
execution? 

760
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,000
Get. 
And at least at the moment I can

761
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,100
just look empirical e and you 
know, my eyes don't lie to me. 

762
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:28,400
The execution on Avalanche is 
incredibly good compared to what

763
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,600
happens on on, let's say, unique
swap every single bit, every 

764
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,500
single etherium minor is 
extracting Mev right now, all of

765
00:43:37,508 --> 00:43:40,200
them. 
And the way the Avalanche 

766
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,500
network is there are so many 
people who are securing the 

767
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:45,800
network. 
And so many of these people 

768
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:50,200
Pilar firsthand participants in 
the network that they just will 

769
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,400
not do any of these attacks. 
So, that's, I think the big 

770
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,000
difference when you have a 
designated minor class, you have

771
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,600
these people who are sharks. 
You know, how miners are right 

772
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,000
there there for the money and 
only the money. 

773
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:06,100
They are not really 
forward-thinking. 

774
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:09,300
They have some calculations 
they've made and if someone 

775
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:13,000
comes along and says, here is 
here, is some, you know, you're 

776
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,700
some trickery that allows you to
make more money. 

777
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,600
They all jump and start using 
that trickery. 

778
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:22,200
So that's what's happening on 
etherium, and I see no reason 

779
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,100
for why that should change. 
We've seen this in the case of 

780
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:28,100
Bitcoin miners, as well. 
They are completely 

781
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,600
profit-driven. 
So they will do whatever makes 

782
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,300
sense for their profits and an 
avalanche. 

783
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:38,100
The way the protocol is, the 
vast majority of the steak is 

784
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:43,200
not extracting is not extracting
in a, my nodes are never going 

785
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,300
to extract Mev, from any user. 
So, when, It's their time to 

786
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:49,600
propose blocks. 
They will do whatever is right. 

787
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:54,500
So that's I think a fantastic 
situation to be in and the Mev 

788
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:58,400
to be extracted as far lower 
than than a system like like 

789
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,800
etherium. 
Well that definitely makes 

790
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,000
sense. 
I think like that's one of the 

791
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,600
big differentiators of of 
avalanche which is like it's not

792
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,500
a very delegation heavy system. 
Wherein other proof of stake 

793
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,900
systems because you have usually
have limitations on the number 

794
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:18,800
of validators. 
Inert Enderman chain, like you 

795
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,500
probably shouldn't go above 150,
validator do so. 

796
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,600
There, you have to have 
delegation where I, as a holder 

797
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,700
of tokens am delegating my 
voting power in consensus to a 

798
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:35,100
particular commercial entity. 
And then when the these 

799
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:38,200
commercial entities, then of 
course, they will have 

800
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,400
professional Mev extraction 
systems. 

801
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,100
If not today then, eventually, 
right? 

802
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:47,300
Like the Nash equilibrium is is 
sort of Of everyone runs a Navy 

803
00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:50,400
extraction system and 
distributes that we are lower 

804
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,100
commissions or something 
something else, right, but in 

805
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:57,600
avalanche, because essentially, 
there is not a limitation on the

806
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,300
number of validators, anyone who
has coins can become a validator

807
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,400
and so we hope can be that. 
Well, at least a certain 

808
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,300
fraction of the network that is 
regular people. 

809
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:14,400
Running validators won't have 
professional Mev extraction 

810
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,900
systems now. 
That can be the hope. 

811
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,300
Now, of course, there's going to
be entities. 

812
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:22,300
Like I don't know probably 
Finance has a lot of avalanche 

813
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:25,100
tokens or the exchanges will 
have a lot of avalanche tokens 

814
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:28,300
and they will have an avalanche 
validator, and they'll end up 

815
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:33,200
running MV extraction systems in
the future, but probably a 

816
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,000
bigger fraction of the Avalanche
Network compared to other proof 

817
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,900
of stake. 
Networks might be one where 

818
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,600
people are still running like 
naive code with no immediate 

819
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,800
something like that. 
So that could be, that could 

820
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:51,000
definitely be a structural 
advantage in in avalanche, 11 

821
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,900
curiosity. 
I have about, you know, a 

822
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:58,000
Villages like, is not technical 
curiosity anymore. 

823
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,200
It's like in the, in the 
beginning, right? 

824
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,500
Like there was Bitcoin and there
were lit helium. 

825
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,300
And these were there was a point
where I thought these were the 

826
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:09,800
only two that mattered and there
was an earlier point where it 

827
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,000
was just Bitcoin that matter and
kind of both of us. 

828
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:20,200
Seen those points in history 
and, you know, and now, there 

829
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,800
are so many chains, most of them
don't, but most of them don't 

830
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,400
matter. 
But yet, it's like, even in the 

831
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,500
change that matter, you see that
like they are starting to 

832
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,300
develop very distinct 
personalities. 

833
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,300
Now, for example, that II 
couldn't go to the conferences 

834
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:44,000
in Portugal, but but my friends 
tell me that there was a cosmos.

835
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:46,500
And they will soar on our 
conference and my friends tell 

836
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:49,000
me that you enter the cosmos 
conference. 

837
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,600
It was like, you know a bit like
the earlier crypto nerds kind of

838
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,400
hanging out kind of atmosphere 
when he went to the Solana 

839
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,400
conference. 
It was like it was like very 

840
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,300
businesslike and you can see 
that it's like, I mean, there 

841
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:10,000
are Wall Street firms that are 
now trading on Solana and you 

842
00:48:10,008 --> 00:48:13,100
can feel like oh there's this 
Wall Street energy. 

843
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:18,100
That's like, you know, Coming 
into into that chain and it's a 

844
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:19,900
different atmosphere. 
It's kind of a different 

845
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,200
community and you know, like 
it's like a different go to 

846
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,200
market as well. 
Did you see the discussion? 

847
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,000
They had I saw a picture from 
you know, they have different 

848
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,800
sessions and different lectures.
They had one lecture on Solana 

849
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,700
and decentralisation giant room,
maybe like 15 people in it. 

850
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:43,300
So so that tells you about about
how much they care about the 

851
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:45,500
centralization. 
Ocean and Solana in the Solana 

852
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:47,500
community. 
That was, that was an 

853
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:50,500
interesting sight to see. 
So you are absolutely right. 

854
00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:53,100
All these chains are developing 
their own personalities, their 

855
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:55,400
own, ecosystems their own user 
groups. 

856
00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:58,100
So. 
So I'm curious where you're 

857
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:01,100
going with the question. 
So yeah, and I'm like, yeah, 

858
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:04,800
what's the you know, like what I
mean one way of stating is a 

859
00:49:04,808 --> 00:49:06,400
what is like, you know, what 
what do you think? 

860
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,500
Is that the target market for 
Avalanche? 

861
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:14,700
Like what kind of Community or 
distinct subculture of projects 

862
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:19,600
is Avalanche cultivating? 
Or I mean, what is like top-down

863
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,100
cultivation? 
What would you like? 

864
00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:22,400
But what is also like, what's 
that? 

865
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,200
What do you think is happening? 
Bottom up? 

866
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:27,500
Yeah, what would I like and 
what's happening? 

867
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:30,200
That's that's actually I haven't
thought about that too much, but

868
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,600
I can tell you what's happening 
on in the trenches. 

869
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,100
We have a very strong user 
Community. 

870
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,700
We have a lot of crossover 
projects. 

871
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,200
We have a bunch of projects that
got funding from from polka dot 

872
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,500
or from Solana, even and decided
that, hey, we need an evm chain 

873
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,500
and these things don't actually 
work that that got funded us. 

874
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,200
And so, you know, so Lana 
doesn't support the evm and 

875
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,500
polka dot. 
Makes a lot of Is but doesn't 

876
00:49:56,500 --> 00:50:00,200
actually support smart contracts
at the time, at least, so. 

877
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,600
So we have a bunch of people 
coming over with, with build 

878
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,300
contracts and so forth. 
So, how do I characterize the 

879
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:11,500
average Avalanche user? 
That's a great question. 

880
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,000
I would say that because of my 
reach, there's a fair number of 

881
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,400
people who are technically 
savvy. 

882
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:24,500
So, fair number of ctOS, cios 
that, that got in very early. 

883
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:28,000
And they understand And the true
revolutionary nature of the 

884
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,000
technology that's been wonderful
to have. 

885
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,700
There is a large number of 
people who came to Avalanche 

886
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:38,200
because it's cheap. 
So there is a large number of 

887
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,200
people who are overseas and they
kept watching all these 

888
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,700
westerners. 
All these Europeans, get rich 

889
00:50:44,700 --> 00:50:48,800
and richer and richer and richer
only Theory, mmm, and they were 

890
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,600
cut out, you know? 
Right now you can't do a trade 

891
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:57,600
on on etherium, on an Am Em and 
Less than 100 bucks is just, you

892
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,700
know, the slippage of the plus, 
the fees is going to be pretty 

893
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:04,600
nasty for you. 
And if your entire budget is 

894
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,500
$200, you're not going to pay 
like 50 dollars in fees, or $100

895
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:11,400
in fees. 
So those people were cut out of 

896
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,700
defy. 
They had no place to go. 

897
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,600
And so Avalanche, attracts a 
fair number of these people and 

898
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,500
it has for them. 
Been a godsend. 

899
00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:23,000
I get every day. 
I get a whole bunch of messages 

900
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,300
saying, this has been a 
life-changing experience. 

901
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,600
The the and not only because of 
a Vox coin appreciation, which 

902
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,200
it has done really well, but 
also because we gave them an 

903
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,100
ecosystem. 
We gave them a home. 

904
00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:38,900
We gave them an accepting place,
and the people who want to run a

905
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:42,800
validator. 
We you can just run a validator.

906
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,000
You don't have to partake in a 
para, swap auction. 

907
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,600
I'm not part of swap para, para 
chain auction. 

908
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:50,600
That's ridiculous. 
Crap. 

909
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,500
That's just like stuff for the 
rich. 

910
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,300
So so you can get into these 
situations. 

911
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:59,000
And and be a meaningful member 
of the Avalanche community. 

912
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,900
So we attract a lot of people 
who couldn't do that elsewhere 

913
00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:04,600
and they came to us. 
We have as I mentioned the 

914
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,000
technically Savvy Community, you
know, go into our channels and 

915
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,900
you'll find a fair number of 
very, very, very informed 

916
00:52:11,900 --> 00:52:14,700
intelligent people who 
understand how these protocols 

917
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:17,400
work, what the differences are. 
The other thing. 

918
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,400
I guess, I would say that a lot 
of our users are new to crypto. 

919
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,300
You know, we brought a bunch of 
new people in the air. 

920
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,100
Area also grew during the 
pandemic. 

921
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:30,200
So maybe everybody else also has
this. 

922
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,100
I don't know, but I do know that
there's a fair number of people 

923
00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:37,500
for whom, Avalanche is the first
coin they owned and that's an 

924
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:40,100
interesting situation. 
Such people tend to be a little 

925
00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:43,600
bit more skittish. 
They tend to be, you know, when 

926
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,800
there is the usual China, Fedor 
Russia, Fedor India Fudd, they 

927
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,500
freak out a little bit more. 
If you have a bug in your 

928
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:52,900
system. 
They think that's the end of the

929
00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:54,600
world. 
They don't understand that these

930
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,600
things happen. 
Some regularity and they get 

931
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,700
fixed but what it is whatever it
is. 

932
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,100
It's just part and parcel of 
having a lot of a lot of new 

933
00:53:03,100 --> 00:53:06,500
people. 
So those are I think my three 

934
00:53:07,100 --> 00:53:12,500
characterizing points there, are
there used to be we were mostly 

935
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:16,900
relegated to techies, but now 
Traders are coming in and 

936
00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:20,000
Traders. 
Come in based on two things. 

937
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,100
The Traders come in when they 
see another another person with 

938
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,300
Deep Pockets, they like to ape, 
you know, They see a rich person

939
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:28,200
doing something. 
They're like, hey, this guy must

940
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,600
be doing something, right? 
So, you know, that's fine. 

941
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,400
That's that's a silly Behavior. 
That's what you know, they do 

942
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:35,000
it. 
That's fine. 

943
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,900
The other thing they do is they 
come in because the own chain 

944
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:43,700
metrics are in their favor. 
If you look at our tvl and our 

945
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:47,500
market cap, we have the highest 
TV L per market cap. 

946
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:51,500
Okay, so I can't really comment 
on the price, but people people 

947
00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:54,300
who've got lower TV else than 
us. 

948
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,700
Have Your markets caps. 
So we're in a very good 

949
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:00,300
situation, High TV, L is 
fantastic. 

950
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:03,700
People who see our growth 
patterns, they come in. 

951
00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:07,700
So more frequently. 
These data driven Traders have 

952
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:12,300
been coming into to Avalanche, 
and that's been a, that's a very

953
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:14,800
different community. 
So they may or may not 

954
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,600
understand the Revolutionary 
nature of the underlying 

955
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:22,500
technology. 
We also have quite a few, I 

956
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:27,100
would say normal people, so Just
this is very important to me. 

957
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,800
And this is actually one area 
where I I strive to 

958
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,200
differentiate us almost. 
All of crypto is has been 

959
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,000
appealing to the same kind of 
anti-establishment 

960
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,300
anti-everything crowd, right? 
You know, they want to break 

961
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:45,700
down Society. 
They want to break down the 

962
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:50,500
dominance of the dollar and and 
have say Bitcoin instead or the 

963
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:51,400
etherium. 
Folks. 

964
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:52,700
You know, I've heard crazy 
things. 

965
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:55,200
So what if, what if we build a 
system? 

966
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:57,900
That is used to store, you know,
terrible. 

967
00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:00,100
Terrible content. 
You know, it's okay. 

968
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:02,800
Maybe that would be okay. 
And this was coming from from 

969
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,300
very high on up and that's 
that's that's not where we are 

970
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:09,800
coming from. 
I think I want to we know if you

971
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,700
if you wanted me to position us.
I would position us slightly to 

972
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:20,000
the more Humane side of where 
crypto is today. 

973
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,100
So none of this like, you know, 
you lost your coins. 

974
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:26,400
What's it to me? 
Or I got mine. 

975
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,000
So screw you type, type people, 
but more of the, how are you 

976
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,600
doing? 
I I know I will do well and I 

977
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,600
want you to do well in life as 
well. 

978
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,400
Type of people and more of the, 
you know, I could, I could go by

979
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,800
etherium and I could, I could 
pretend that etherium, is 

980
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,400
etherium to all the while 
knowing that the theorem is 

981
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,700
actually theorem one, etherium 
is a proof-of-work coin. 

982
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:54,100
It is as disruptive and terrible
for the environment as Bitcoin 

983
00:55:54,100 --> 00:55:58,300
has, you know, There was a huge 
disconnect in some circles there

984
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,900
and it's a little painful to 
watch. 

985
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,300
So all these people who, you 
know, ostensibly they seem to 

986
00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:06,800
care about things ESG concerns, 
right? 

987
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,600
So they care about the 
environment, they care about 

988
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,200
social impact supposedly and 
then they go in and use 

989
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,300
technologies that are, you know,
10 years old. 

990
00:56:16,300 --> 00:56:18,900
At this point proof of work is 
11 years old. 

991
00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:20,600
It's terrible for the 
environment. 

992
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,400
You should not be touching a 
coin like that if you cared the 

993
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,400
least bit about The environment 
you want to leave a better spot 

994
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,000
for the, you can't be using one 
percent of the world's 

995
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,100
electricity to mine, your coin 
and that's what Bitcoin and 

996
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:39,000
etherium combined do so, so 
that's that's one area where I 

997
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,400
would like to make sure that we 
are everybody perceives us as 

998
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,500
being different. 
You know, we are a fast chain 

999
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:49,800
where a high capacity chain were
a very versatile chain and the 

1000
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,600
people who understand our subnet
infrastructure Etc. 

1001
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,400
The techies notice the normies 
will A while to understand. 

1002
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:00,100
But most importantly, I would 
like to attract delightful 

1003
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,900
normal reasonable people people 
who don't want to break down 

1004
00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:07,300
society as we have it. 
People who want to essentially, 

1005
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:10,700
preserve what we have but make 
it much more efficient. 

1006
00:57:10,700 --> 00:57:14,300
Make the rails more efficient, 
cut out the fat like even as I 

1007
00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:18,600
speak right above the laptop. 
I'm watching Wall Street and 

1008
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,700
those people, you know, they 
are, they're The Gatekeepers. 

1009
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:24,400
They collect the rent. 
They collect. 

1010
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,400
They don't give you Service day,
in fact, if you poor service, 

1011
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,800
they jump ahead of your your 
your order flows, right? 

1012
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,900
So, so people who want to cut 
that out and leave a better 

1013
00:57:34,900 --> 00:57:37,800
world for for their children. 
That was, those are the kinds of

1014
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,400
people I would like to attract. 
So, and, and I've done 

1015
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,600
everything. 
Everything, I know to do 

1016
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,800
everything imaginable at the 
protocol level to, to build 

1017
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,500
something that will appeal to 
them inherently. 

1018
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:56,700
And from now on, it's just a 
game of Mostly sitting back and 

1019
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,200
letting the sort of the usual 
percolation of ideas, take hold 

1020
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,800
and, and have people understand 
what it is that we have, because

1021
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,800
I do, you know, it's, I think 
clear to me that we have 

1022
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,100
something that's far. 
Superior both technically two 

1023
00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:14,700
other proof of stake coins and 
also value wise to to at least 

1024
00:58:14,700 --> 00:58:16,600
some of the big incumbents in 
the space. 

1025
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:18,400
All right. 
Yeah. 

1026
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,000
And really best of luck going 
for the journey. 

1027
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:26,800
That's that's there to come. 
Thank you, mayor and best of 

1028
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,500
luck to you as well. 
This has been such a blast, I've

1029
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:32,800
so thoroughly. 
I was not expecting to see you 

1030
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,900
today. 
So, great to see you beat 

1031
00:58:34,900 --> 00:58:39,100
cancer, so great to see to have 
a great chat with you as always 

1032
00:58:39,100 --> 00:58:42,200
as if it's just, you know, five 
years ago from where we picked 

1033
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,400
up, but from from where we left 
off and continue the 

1034
00:58:45,408 --> 00:58:47,400
conversation, so great to see my
hair back. 

1035
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,500
So great to chat with you again.
Yeah, absolutely. 

1036
00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:53,800
And hopefully we can do another 
one of those, you know, not not 

1037
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,400
so far away five years. 
Definitely like, way way, way 

1038
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,400
too far. 
So I think that would be fun and

1039
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,500
I'm really excited to see what 
you know, happening in the 

1040
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:06,300
Avalanche ecosystem. 
We have our at our company 

1041
00:59:06,300 --> 00:59:09,900
course while we have a few 
people who like quite into it. 

1042
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,600
And yeah, I'm also excited 
because it does feel like a very

1043
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,400
spray elegant some of the 
design. 

1044
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:22,100
Fine, so and yeah big fan of 
your work for so many years. 

1045
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:25,000
So it's very exciting to see how
this is coming to so much 

1046
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,800
creation. 
Now, thank you so much and thank

1047
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:32,500
you so much for having me guys. 
So yeah, let's looking forward 

1048
00:59:32,500 --> 00:59:37,600
to Growing the space with you. 
All educating people and making,

1049
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,700
you know, just especially I 
should maybe mention this at the

1050
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:45,000
in closing, our golden Avalanche
is to bring into the space. 

1051
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:48,700
The many hundreds of trillions 
of That's are not in blockchain 

1052
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:53,900
form and the space only grows 
with with more and more value 

1053
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:56,400
coming into it. 
We built our infrastructure to 

1054
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,600
allow that I talked about the 
scalable consensus protocol. 

1055
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,800
We didn't talk about subnets. 
Maybe we'll talk about them. 

1056
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:07,300
We can talk about them at the 
future discussion, but we have 

1057
01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:11,700
an infrastructure that allows us
to to create essentially 

1058
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,500
blockchains for custom. 
Use cases that I open or 

1059
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:18,400
semi-open or maybe close 
depending ending on the use case

1060
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:24,100
and but interoperable and so so 
we're in a unique position to be

1061
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:28,000
able to absorb that growth. 
And we're also working to invent

1062
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:33,200
new new assets. 
So we simply recently came up 

1063
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,100
with something called Aiello's 
initially litigation offerings. 

1064
01:00:36,500 --> 01:00:40,100
Those are fun. 
And so in every way I've been 

1065
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:42,600
trying to grow the space. 
I've been trying to bring into 

1066
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,000
it, the people who bring value 
with them and and I just can't 

1067
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,200
wait to see. 
The space flourish in the next 

1068
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:50,900
decade to come. 
It's going to completely 

1069
01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:53,600
transform what we do. 
Yeah, cool. 

1070
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:58,000
Well then if that, thanks so 
much, corn is amazing, and I 

1071
01:00:58,008 --> 01:00:59,500
look forward to having you back 
on soon. 

1072
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:02,000
Thank you guys. 
Talk to you soon. 

1073
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,700
Bye bye. 
Best of luck. 

1074
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,000
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1075
01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:10,000
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1076
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:13,300
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1077
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:16,400
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you listen to podcast. 

1078
01:01:16,700 --> 01:01:19,600
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1079
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,700
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast. 

1080
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:25,100
Go to epicenter, .t V /. 
Subscribe for a full list of 

1081
01:01:25,100 --> 01:01:27,800
places where you can watch and 
listen, while you're there, be 

1082
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,900
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1083
01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:31,700
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1084
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:34,800
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1085
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,700
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1086
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:39,700
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1087
01:01:39,900 --> 01:01:42,000
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them with. 

1088
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,500
Thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.