1
00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:04,600
This is epicenter episode 365 
with guest Martin Coleman. 

2
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,000
I am Sebastian with you and 
you're listening to epicenter 

3
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,700
the podcast where we interview 
crypto, Founders, Builders and 

4
00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:25,900
thought, leaders. 
All this show, we dive deep to 

5
00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:28,400
learn how things work at a 
technical level, and we fly high

6
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,800
to understand Visionary, 
Concepts, and long-term trends. 

7
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,800
If you like epicenter, the best 
way to support us is to leave a 

8
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,000
review on Apple podcasts if 
you're on a Mac or iOS device. 

9
00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,100
The easiest way to do that is to
go to epicenter dot rocks /. 

10
00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:45,300
Apple Today, our guest is Martin
Coleman, Martin is the CEO of 

11
00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:47,200
gnosis and he's been on the 
show. 

12
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:48,700
Well, this would be a third 
appearance. 

13
00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:51,700
He was on the show way back in 
the early days of gnosis, and 

14
00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:53,600
about two years ago to talk 
about d x. 

15
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,200
Dou. 
Well, he's back on today to talk

16
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,700
about another project on which 
he's working, and that is 

17
00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:01,100
circles. 
Ubi. 

18
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,000
Now, you may have heard of 
circles. 

19
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,800
Ubi, I believe it's one of the 
most serious attempts in the 

20
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,600
space to create Universal basic 
income based economies. 

21
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,700
On on a blockchain, and does a 
couple of really unique things 

22
00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:16,800
about it. 
First, it's fully decentralized.

23
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:22,900
So it doesn't leverage kyc or 
any form of identity to prevent 

24
00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:26,300
against Sybil attacks and they 
built in this really interesting

25
00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:30,700
and robust trust mechanism where
you essentially kind of create 

26
00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:34,100
webs of trust within the circles
Ubi ecosystem. 

27
00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:37,800
The other interesting thing 
about it is that it's built on 

28
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,500
the PO a network which is an 
ethereal side. 

29
00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,400
And there's several benefits to 
doing this one. 

30
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:49,100
Well, the transaction fees are 
very low there, nearly zero and 

31
00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:54,400
transactions, settle very fast 
and it leverages X Dy which is 

32
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,400
12 1 Peg of die on POA to 
achieve stability. 

33
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,300
Lastly, what I like about this 
project is the way it's 

34
00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,400
positioned. 
It doesn't Market itself 

35
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,900
specifically to anyone in crypto
but rather it tries to to 

36
00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:15,400
position itself as an ecosystem 
and a protocol that can help 

37
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,200
anyone create and promote a 
local economy within their 

38
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,500
community. 
And I think this is very 

39
00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:27,500
powerful and especially in the 
current context of covid, where 

40
00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:32,300
lots of local businesses are 
hurting and depending on their 

41
00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:37,400
neighbors, and people in their 
Community to shop and consume in

42
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,100
their business. 
So, having this available, Bowl 

43
00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:46,100
as a tool at our disposal at 
societies, disposal is really 

44
00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:50,100
powerful in France. 
There are several local 

45
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:52,600
currencies that exist all across
the country in different 

46
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,400
communities. 
There's one here in the Paris 

47
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,300
area, but a lot of times, I 
don't think these are very 

48
00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:00,300
attractive for people to use 
because their paper based mostly

49
00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:03,000
very few of them have digital 
payments. 

50
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,100
And I think for a lot of people,
the probably isn't very much of 

51
00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,600
an incentive to use them save 
for, perhaps a discount at local

52
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,700
businesses. 
But you have to buy these 

53
00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:15,900
currencies here with a circles 
Ubi, those are huge incentive to

54
00:03:15,900 --> 00:03:18,200
use it because you're 
essentially get this currency 

55
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,700
are dropped to your account at a
fixed interval. 

56
00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:24,000
So, I'm really glad, we finally 
got Martin on to talk about this

57
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,100
and I hope you enjoy it. 
Before we go to the interview, 

58
00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:30,400
I'd like to tell you about the 
webinar that Al Gore and is 

59
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,300
hosting next week. 
It's on Tuesday, November, 17th.

60
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,000
And here, you'll learn all the 
basics of building your own defy

61
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000
application on Al Gore. 
And what's great about a Legrand

62
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,300
is that they've built a lot of 
The Primitives that you need to 

63
00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:47,500
build sophisticated defy apps 
right into the protocol. 

64
00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:50,200
So, I'll tell you a little bit 
more about that later on during 

65
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,600
the interview. 
But if you'd like to sign up, go

66
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,000
to Al Gore and.com epicenter. 
And sign up for the webinar next

67
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,300
week and with that. 
Here's Brian and sunny. 

68
00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:05,500
Interviewing, Martin compliment.
Hi and welcome. 

69
00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:08,900
We are here today with Martin 
Copper Mountain Resort on the 

70
00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:11,800
show. 
I think for the third time he's 

71
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,000
of course the founder of gnosis 
the prediction markets company 

72
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,200
that we've also had on the 
podcast before. 

73
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,800
You know he's worked on some 
other things like the X down to 

74
00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:25,300
trading decentralized exchange 
Technologies. 

75
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,500
With closest, they've worked on 
the save. 

76
00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:29,000
So really quite a lot of 
different stuff. 

77
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,900
And he's been part of the 
theorem Community for a long 

78
00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:34,300
time. 
I know him from the Bitcoin, 

79
00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:38,200
Minos back in Berlin in 2013 
when we started those. 

80
00:04:38,700 --> 00:04:43,200
And so today, we are going to 
speak about another project that

81
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,300
Martin has been working on for a
long time. 

82
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,000
I remember talking with Martin 
about this, I don't know, 

83
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,800
probably three years ago or 
something. 

84
00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:57,800
So a long time ago and you said 
you circles It's and circles is 

85
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,900
the idea for having a 
decentralized basic income 

86
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,800
project and yes, it's something 
you've been working on for a 

87
00:05:05,808 --> 00:05:07,700
long time. 
I remember working here, at full

88
00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:11,600
node with some people small team
that has been working on that, 

89
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,700
like two years ago, maybe so 
it's been germinating for a long

90
00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:19,700
time, but now circus is kind of 
launched and is getting, you 

91
00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:22,800
know, some traction, some usage.
And so yeah, we wanted to have 

92
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,200
mine on to dive into Ubi And you
know, circles in particular and 

93
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,400
how to project aims to you know,
create a new economic system. 

94
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,600
So thanks so much for coming on 
Martin. 

95
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,100
Yeah, thanks for everything. 
Me, looking forward to the 

96
00:05:39,108 --> 00:05:42,400
conversation. 
So let's start at the beginning.

97
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,900
Like why do you find this idea 
of basic income? 

98
00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:49,600
Interesting? 
There are really, really many 

99
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,800
reasons. 
There are many reasons why you 

100
00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:58,900
can find basic income. 
Interesting it's enabling human 

101
00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,000
potential. 
I guess making the world a 

102
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,900
better place. 
Making the world a safer Place, 

103
00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:06,600
making the world more 
technologically advanced days, 

104
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,100
make the world, a more 
culturally Rich place. 

105
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,700
So yeah, the idea is, if people 
don't have to worry about their 

106
00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,600
very basic needs are not 
trapped. 

107
00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:21,800
Kind of being afraid to not 
being able to pay their food and

108
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:28,400
their rent that people can 
unleash their potential and Ubi 

109
00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:33,200
just seems the best way. 
And the most efficient way to do

110
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,800
that, just set this basic floor 
where everyone can can stand on 

111
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:44,000
and contrived above that. 
Yeah, you can have you can have 

112
00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:48,700
a competitive economy or you can
have market-based Economy but 

113
00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:53,400
but yeah there's this this basic
floor where no one can fall 

114
00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:57,400
below that floor. 
That's roughly the idea of epi 

115
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,900
So could you explain the, what 
is a Ubi in the first place? 

116
00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:08,100
And how is this different than, 
you know, welfare systems that 

117
00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:10,500
we already have today and looks 
countries? 

118
00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:14,800
Yeah, no. 
I think I think Universal basic 

119
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,300
income Ubi the core ideas. 
The car idea is that simply 

120
00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:25,100
everyone gets it, and it's 
independent of of your personal 

121
00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:27,900
situation. 
So it's not that makes it all so

122
00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,800
very To implement it because you
don't need any burocracy to 

123
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,500
decide is this person, legible, 
you don't have weird rules that 

124
00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:39,600
sometimes create perverse 
incentives. 

125
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,700
So if you have some welfare 
sometimes it's a problem to 

126
00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:48,300
start earning money or start 
working because that it's the 

127
00:07:48,308 --> 00:07:51,300
same time with kind of cut your 
welfare. 

128
00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:54,100
And it's actually then, 
potentially not even worse it. 

129
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,700
So, and Ubi is just very, very 
simple concept of saying, Seeing

130
00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:05,100
everyone gets a specific amount.
Probably a month or week, that, 

131
00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:10,400
that doesn't really matter, but 
it simply continuously paid out 

132
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,600
to every. 
Yeah. 

133
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:17,700
Usually, citizen as long as they
are alive, I feel the way you've

134
00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:22,100
described like the need for you.
Bi comes off as a very sort of 

135
00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:25,800
utopian vision for it. 
I say this in the comparison to,

136
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,900
you know, I think you bi has 
become Wait a, you know, 

137
00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:34,200
everyday term now thanks to like
you know the u.s. presidential 

138
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,200
candidate, Andrew Yang kind of 
like bringing it into the 

139
00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:39,500
commonplace at least here in the
US. 

140
00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:43,600
But his approach his seems 
almost like a more dystopian 

141
00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:47,800
like or like we need Ubi because
like this automation is taking 

142
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,700
our jobs and like we need this 
to like survive a society. 

143
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,100
Well you seem to take a much 
more like possibly even if it's 

144
00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:58,300
automation wasn't an issue. 
Like even in today's world, 

145
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,600
World where there is an 
abundance of jobs. 

146
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,900
If you still think that the Ubi 
is like a positive force. 

147
00:09:04,900 --> 00:09:08,700
And so what is the talk a little
bit about this? 

148
00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:12,600
For sure? 
I mean, I see the the automation

149
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,900
as wonderful things so I mean 
basically means that people are 

150
00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:22,100
free to do something else. 
It's to me absurd that we that 

151
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,000
creating jobs is a goal. 
I mean, like, our goal should be

152
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,300
to get rid of jobs too. 
Great of work. 

153
00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:34,300
I mean like there is no. 
I mean like the idea that we 

154
00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:37,900
need to find something that 
people can work, that seems 

155
00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:41,600
absurd to me. 
We need to find, we need to make

156
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,700
sure that that we can produce 
stuff and that we that we get 

157
00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:47,900
things done, that we need to get
done. 

158
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,600
But the explicit goal to say, 
well, we need that human has 

159
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,700
something that they can spend 
their time on. 

160
00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:59,100
That hip seems absurd to me. 
Of course, I understand, I 

161
00:09:59,108 --> 00:10:01,700
understand where it's coming 
from, it's coming from. 

162
00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:05,500
Well, if people don't have easy 
or kind of straightforward way 

163
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,500
to get income and so on. 
So I understand that logic but 

164
00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:13,300
if you zoom a little bit out, it
seems really, I mean crazy to 

165
00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:18,600
say, we need to make sure that 
there is stuff to do if we can 

166
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,900
organize society that lets 
people into work and everyone 

167
00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:24,500
gets what they want. 
That's that should be great. 

168
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Yes, I saw this video by Bruce, 
Fenton, like the other day on 

169
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:34,600
Twitter where he talked about 
Ubi, and he thought it was like 

170
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,300
such an absurd idea because, you
know, it would mean giving money

171
00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:42,800
to, like, lazy people or people 
who are not talented. 

172
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,400
And it struck me such a like, 
where's this coming from? 

173
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,400
Because it seems like it's 
strange idea to me on some way, 

174
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,700
but I think if you're, you know,
if you see it as maybe there's 

175
00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:58,900
more dislike Zero Sum game, and 
there's a limited amount. 

176
00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:01,100
And, you know, if you give it to
the wrong people, then you kind 

177
00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:05,100
of end up in this bad situation,
then I kind of understand how 

178
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:09,400
this makes sense, but if you if 
you think of the world more one 

179
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,000
where there is this like 
abundance and there is actually 

180
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000
enough then it just seems like 
it would be such a great thing 

181
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,800
if you can have this basic level
sort of distributed to everyone.

182
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,300
So yeah, I think it's it's such 
a great vision. 

183
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:30,500
I mean, also one way to look at 
it is what I mean, if you, if 

184
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:34,200
you say well, you shouldn't give
it, you shouldn't give it to 

185
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,300
those people. 
So, what is the consequence? 

186
00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:39,200
I mean, like, let's be ready. 
Cool here in our thoughts, at 

187
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,700
least and say what should be the
consequence for those people 

188
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,000
died. 
Then, I mean, of course, no one 

189
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,800
should die. 
And no one should they will not,

190
00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:49,000
no one will disappear. 
No one, no one should die. 

191
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,600
No one should not have enough to
eat. 

192
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,200
So somehow, and it does this but
true already. 

193
00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,200
So Everyone obeys, almost 
everyone living in the years 

194
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,000
living in Europe, somehow has an
income. 

195
00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:08,700
So it is already whatever the 
source is, but but people are 

196
00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:12,000
usually not starving and are 
usually not dying because they 

197
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,800
can't get an income. 
So they, they, they get an 

198
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,800
income. 
So the difference is, of course,

199
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,300
not unconditional. 
So right now, to get this 

200
00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:25,000
income, you need to do things, 
you need to to work. 

201
00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:30,700
And basically, What a basic 
income is doing is it's not even

202
00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:35,400
changing the fact that everyone 
gets at least, it's just your 

203
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,500
basic income. 
It just changes. 

204
00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:41,100
The fact that they get it, 
everyone gets it unconditional. 

205
00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:46,600
So yes you are indeed taking 
away power from people who have 

206
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,600
money. 
So they have obviously everyone 

207
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,600
who has money has now less power
over people who have no money 

208
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:58,200
because now everyone Some money 
and basically the basic income 

209
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,600
gives you the option to say no. 
So it gives you the option to be

210
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:09,300
if a job is offered to 
negotiate, you have better 

211
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:14,100
better bargaining position. 
But yeah, again the the people 

212
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,300
have incomes already. 
One of the like, very 

213
00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:21,000
interesting things about UB is 
it seems to have ethical 

214
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,300
political goal as a team, to 
have pretty wide support from 

215
00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:27,900
like all different. 
And sot, like spectrums of the 

216
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,300
political Spectrum, like, you 
know, libertarian, see it as 

217
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,900
like this way of like, 
simplifying, the welfare system.

218
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,200
I feel like a lot of free market
people see this as a way of like

219
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,300
encouraging entrepreneurship. 
So I think it's a very 

220
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,800
interesting like being that the 
kind of breaks past the 

221
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,200
traditional, like, socialism 
capitalism divide that we 

222
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,500
normally see in like, political 
debates. 

223
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,100
And what's with you, bi, of 
course often right been like, 

224
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:58,800
you know, often people think of 
it in the context of like a 

225
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,100
nation-state, right? 
And where it's going to be 

226
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:04,200
funded through taxation you know
like what do you think are the 

227
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:11,200
pros and cons of that versus you
know this more circles approach 

228
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,100
of trying to build something 
that's, you know, Global and 

229
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:17,300
decentralized and where you kind
of like printing this new coin. 

230
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,300
Exactly. 
So I have definitely no issues 

231
00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:27,000
with the nation Nation issued 
Ubi and of course, I would 

232
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,200
encourage that. 
And luckily several states are 

233
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,200
humming softly moving in this 
direction, or at least talking 

234
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,500
about it. 
So it's not not anymore, 

235
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:40,800
something that's Unthinkable, 
but at the same time, yeah, I 

236
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,900
mean, it's exciting that, well, 
we have no technology to 

237
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,900
coordinate humans and Yeah, do 
things without nation-states. 

238
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,000
So one way to look at circles is
simply to say, well, we can get 

239
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,700
there quicker, we can just do it
ourselves in a way. 

240
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,700
But another way to look at it is
also the I do have my skepticism

241
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:09,200
towards nation-states, so kind 
of at least my my personal 

242
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,500
experience, the way my life 
Works States play only, probably

243
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:19,700
a weird growth because kind of 
my connections are Not long 

244
00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:24,100
nation's borders. 
So the way I the people I 

245
00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:28,100
interact was are definitely not 
kind of only people in Germany 

246
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:32,000
or something like that so it 
does make sense to me to also 

247
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,700
organize to organize something 
like a Ubi across those personal

248
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,200
connections that exist instead 
of those artificial nation 

249
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,700
borders, Algorithms running our 
free webinar to teach 

250
00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:46,600
developers, how they can use the
platform to build sophisticated 

251
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,600
applications for use cases, like
crowdfunding asset tokenization 

252
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,500
Supply Chain management. 
And even gaming applications, 

253
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,400
you'll learn how to get started 
with the command line tools and 

254
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000
use the SDK and rest apis. 
You'll also learn about the 

255
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,900
algorithm foundation's grant 
program and additional funding 

256
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:05,700
opportunities that the algorithm
and ecosystem has to offer. 

257
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,100
So if you're building on a 
blockchain protocol that has 

258
00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,600
unfeasibly high transaction 
fees, And doesn't provide the 

259
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,400
speed you need, or if you are 
for a large Enterprise or 

260
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,300
financial institution and are 
interested in learning how to 

261
00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:20,500
build applications, that could 
integrate in your current 

262
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:23,500
technology stack or if you have 
no blockchain experience at all 

263
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:26,100
and just are looking to take 
that first step into something 

264
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,000
new. 
Well, this webinar could be for 

265
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,100
you. 
Visit aljazeera.com, epicenter 

266
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,100
sign up. 
Once again, it's free and it's 

267
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:36,200
happening on November 17th. 
But if you're listening to this 

268
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,600
after that date, no worries, you
can still go to that page and 

269
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,300
watch the replay. 
We'd like to thank Al Gore and 

270
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:43,600
for those support of the 
podcast. 

271
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:52,600
So maybe before we go into like 
understanding circles a little 

272
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,800
bit and you know the I the 
circus heavier you know what do 

273
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,000
you hope will be the on the kind
of like the broadest level. 

274
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,400
You can think like it and if 
circles like fully succeeds what

275
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,400
do you hope to impact on the 
world will be? 

276
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:13,500
Well, the hope of you bi are the
hopes of you bir. 

277
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,700
Well, get rid of poverty again, 
have technological advancement 

278
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:24,400
advancements because more people
can I can kind of take risks be 

279
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,200
entrepreneurs. 
So yeah, I think the the picture

280
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,600
you could paint is is pretty, it
might be pretty amazing. 

281
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,500
What could come out of your bi 
Cool. 

282
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,400
Okay, well then let's let's dive
into Circle. 

283
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,800
So like how I mean the idea of 
course, is to reach many people 

284
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:49,000
here and so many, of course, 
also means many like non crypto 

285
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,400
people and blockchain systems 
often hard to understand for 

286
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,300
non-capital people. 
So, like, in your efforts, to, 

287
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:59,500
like, on board people, on two 
circles. 

288
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:01,300
Like, how do you explain the 
system? 

289
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,400
Yeah. 
I mean that is indeed something 

290
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:09,700
that varies very much from from 
who you are talking to. 

291
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:15,200
But one way is to describe 
circles as a tool to give 

292
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,100
communities or groups of people.
Yeah. 

293
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:22,600
This tool to give each other Ubi
to organize. 

294
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,500
Yeah. 
Within a group Ubi. 

295
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,800
That's one way to describe it. 
Another way to describe it is to

296
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:35,400
say, let's look at money and 
Let's say we can take an 

297
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,500
existing money system. 
Yeah. 

298
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:41,600
The dollar, the Euro, whatever, 
and build a Ubi on top. 

299
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,400
So we could have a state. 
Yeah. 

300
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,400
The state organizers and build 
the UI on top or if we want this

301
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,000
Ubi anyhow, we could already 
baked it into the money system. 

302
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,800
So we could just have a money 
that has the eye. 

303
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,900
Yeah, directly implemented and 
that and then the third 

304
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:02,500
narrative is from probably those
who come more fun From the 

305
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,400
Bitcoin world, for example, or 
that at least, no Bitcoin. 

306
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:11,200
Here's the story goes, well, 
Bitcoin showed it is possible to

307
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,600
to, to design money, I guess or 
Bitcoin show to the world that 

308
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,500
money in itself is not a neutral
thing. 

309
00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:23,300
Instead money is something with 
choices and kind of work. 

310
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,900
Well, there is an agreement 
about how it works, and, and 

311
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,900
that is not neutral. 
So the money system contains 

312
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:33,700
specific values, or potentially,
Is some people over others. 

313
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,400
And that is the third way to 
look at circles to say, just we 

314
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,600
want money, but we want to 
Design Fair, we want to design 

315
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,300
the money, that no one is 
specifically preferred, and I 

316
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:50,400
think Bitcoin did that already 
to a large degree, in the sense 

317
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,400
that it took away a lot of, 
almost all political power from,

318
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,800
from the money system. 
So no one in Bitcoin has 

319
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,800
political power over Bitcoin, 
but you can argue in a specific 

320
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,500
sense. 
It was not very fair. 

321
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:08,200
It heavily heavily favored. 
Early adoption. 

322
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,300
So like if you look globally at 
Bitcoin, or if you would see 

323
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:16,200
well, let's let's imagine. 
There's an island and there are 

324
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,000
hundred people on this island 
and they kind of somehow agree 

325
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:22,700
to what money should we use. 
And let's say, to people on this

326
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:26,700
island, have an acid and only 
they have it and they say, okay,

327
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:30,000
look everyone, there's only a 
limited Supply and no one 

328
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000
controls it let's use this 
asset. 

329
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,500
The money and they tried to 
convince the other 99, this is 

330
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,700
it. 
I mean, that's basically how the

331
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:39,600
situation today globally is on 
bitcoin. 

332
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,800
So there is so as opposed to 
people like on the global scale,

333
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:45,900
basically the one those who hold
Bitcoin today and they are 

334
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,400
trying to convince the other 98.
Yeah. 

335
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,700
That's Eddie also choose by the 
way, we already hold 90% of the 

336
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,700
tokens but well still, when you 
had your chance you you could 

337
00:20:56,700 --> 00:21:01,500
have joined earlier. 
So in a way circles that again, 

338
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,600
third way to Look at circles, is
to say, well, we want to spare 

339
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,800
money, but we want to make it 
also fair in in more Dimensions.

340
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:15,100
So process of minting, new money
is, first of all, yeah, everyone

341
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:19,900
benefits from that. 
And not even just like in space,

342
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:23,700
so kind of cross like, across 
the whole world, and not just in

343
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:27,700
one area, but also in time. 
So also kind of the Next 

344
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:32,500
Generation or people who are 
born tomorrow, they also Yeah, 

345
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,200
kind of benefiting from, from 
this money creation process, or 

346
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,200
the yeah, money, minting in a 
way. 

347
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,200
Yeah, that's another way to look
at circuits. 

348
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:47,800
How do you drive adoption here? 
Like you know, I without naming 

349
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:51,000
names, you know, I kind of asked
one of my friends like, hey, 

350
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000
have you checked out circles yet
a couple weeks ago and he's 

351
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,000
like, you know, can I make up a 
lot of money off of this? 

352
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,000
Not really. 
So I'm not really, you know, I'm

353
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,500
not really good at bother and so
the money-making opportunity for

354
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,000
like early adopters of 
cryptocurrencies was a large 

355
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,400
part of its like rapid adoption.
And so how do you do that in 

356
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,500
here in circles? 
Out, that sort of property. 

357
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,300
Yeah, I mean, there are two 
sides to circles. 

358
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,900
So the one side is somewhat 
fairly easy to say. 

359
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,600
But I also want free tokens or 
free money. 

360
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,200
So that doesn't require a big 
big, kind of yeah, convincing 

361
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,900
people. 
But of course, that's not it. 

362
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,300
The second step is absolutely 
required. 

363
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:43,400
That there are people who give 
offer something for circuits and

364
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,500
Basically, in a way, take on 
risk with circuits by like, if 

365
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:51,800
you give out stuff and you can 
accept, then this currency of 

366
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,100
course or just whatever you call
it. 

367
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,200
Of course, you then have the 
risk. 

368
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,100
Well, is this anything worse? 
Can I can I get something back 

369
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:02,900
in return? 
And here, the idea is that you 

370
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:08,100
yourself have to some extent. 
The very, very clear interest to

371
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,500
signal that your personal 
currency and we were, I guess we

372
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,300
will come into this but not 
every circle is equal. 

373
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:20,800
But that at least yours is worth
something and that because if 

374
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,900
that is not the case, you will 
have issues that people will 

375
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:27,900
trust your money. 
And that will also mean that you

376
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:32,000
cannot spend your money. 
So you need to be, to some 

377
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,500
extent credible in the other 
people would need to think that 

378
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:40,500
you also willing to potentially 
give something for the money. 

379
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:43,300
Otherwise, they will not trust 
your money and not accept it. 

380
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,800
Okay, so I think maybe to 
understand this better, we need 

381
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,600
to start to dive deep into the 
technicals of house or both 

382
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,900
work. 
So can you explain to the you 

383
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:55,500
know, you mentioned this 
personal money and stuff could 

384
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:57,700
you talk us through how this 
works? 

385
00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,600
Right. 
So, exactly. 

386
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,900
So circuits is, yeah, we be a 
calling the whole system circles

387
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:10,300
but there is no such thing as 
one Circle coin or kind of token

388
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:15,600
or but instead everyone 
individually. 

389
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,100
Yeah, kind of issues their own 
personal personal tokens. 

390
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:25,600
So, as soon as you join the 
system, you can immediately 

391
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,900
start issuing your Your own 
personal tokens, but let's call 

392
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:36,100
mine margin circuits, and you 
are constrained in like, how 

393
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:40,000
fast you can issue them. 
So that is the same for everyone

394
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,600
to probably issuance rate is 
fixed on a specific schedule, 

395
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:46,900
right? 
But but, but then, they are, 

396
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,700
everyone has their own to, but 
then, for the user, or we 

397
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:58,600
largely abstract away from that.
So, kind of, if you are not Not 

398
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,700
super difficult. 
Don't want to understand it. 

399
00:25:00,708 --> 00:25:05,700
Fully circles will look like in 
many cases that they are. 

400
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:10,100
You don't need to think about 
those differences and that comes

401
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:15,400
from the trust networks. 
So what does it means of people 

402
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,500
can trust each other and if they
trust each other they yeah. 

403
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:24,900
In a way verify each other or 
kind of agree with each other 

404
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:28,100
that they are both. 
Yeah using circles and on a 

405
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,700
Clever trusting. 
Someone means you are willing to

406
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:38,900
exchange their circles for your 
circle 121 and real technical 

407
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:42,800
trustees, is directional, so 
that does need to go both ways 

408
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,500
but in the normal case, it would
go both ways. 

409
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,200
So, if I trust brine, it means 
again. 

410
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,200
I accept his circles in exchange
or I'm always willing to 

411
00:25:54,200 --> 00:26:00,200
exchange mine and that is also 
How the system can scale? 

412
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,800
So our first of all in general, 
the idea is that you only accept

413
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:08,000
circles from people you trust 
talking later. 

414
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,300
This is also how we address the 
similar Tech problem, but yeah, 

415
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:14,900
you'd only accept circles from 
people you trust, but it doesn't

416
00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:18,300
mean you can only interact with 
people or I mean there that 

417
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:21,600
would be a shitty money system 
if you can only like buy a 

418
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,400
coffee from someone where there 
is already a trust connection. 

419
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,100
So what those trust connections 
allow Are transitive 

420
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:33,500
connections. 
So yeah, if I trust Brian and we

421
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,400
trust each other and then Brian 
trust again. 

422
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,300
Someone and again someone and 
then there's someone is running 

423
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,500
a coffee shop and I go there and
want to buy the coffee. 

424
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,400
The idea is, well, I paid them 
with circles and they would not 

425
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,100
accept mine because they don't 
know me. 

426
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:51,700
They don't trust me, they don't 
accept my circles. 

427
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,200
But again, there is this path so
I can or under the hood again, 

428
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,800
this is all abstracted from the 
user. 

429
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:02,200
Can be extracted. 
I sent my circles to Brian can 

430
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,500
exchange them for Brian circuit.
Brian forwarding or without his 

431
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:09,000
interaction because he already 
generally agreed to. 

432
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,900
This trust connection is 
forwarding his tokens and again 

433
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,500
is forwarding his token. 
So as long as there is a trust 

434
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:21,600
connection and disconnection 
needs to be liquid, that's small

435
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,800
detail, that's important, then I
can pay ya whomever and this 

436
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,300
whoever is Then receiving 
circuits from someone, they 

437
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:36,100
directly know or they directly 
trust and analogy here, you 

438
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:40,000
know, maybe to for people to 
understand, it's similar to 

439
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,100
lightning Network and that's 
like this like trust Network 

440
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:48,000
where but instead on lightning 
and every channel as the same 

441
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,800
token, which is Bitcoin here, 
it's every channel is about a 

442
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,900
personal token, essentially 
exactly. 

443
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:59,900
But but yeah, it's a concept is 
the same Or for people who are 

444
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:05,200
even longer around or Ridge, the
original concept of Ripper was 

445
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,300
also very, very similar. 
I'm not sure kind of how much 

446
00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:12,100
rip the today has but yeah, 
until that you're sort of this, 

447
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,800
I think the continuation of that
original Ripple, that idea. 

448
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,900
Also there's a project trust 
lines in the urban space. 

449
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:21,900
Exactly. 
I think what's an interesting 

450
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,500
another way to think of it in 
the Ripple or Crush Klein's 

451
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:30,200
context is, inter Ledger Ripple 
or two about taking Debt in 

452
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,100
intellect her. 
It's basically we keep this 

453
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:37,400
channel open between us where we
say, hey, I owe you point one, 

454
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,100
Bitcoin, IOU point to bitcoin 
IOU, .3, Bitcoin. 

455
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:44,800
And then we can settle up at 
some point in the future here. 

456
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:50,300
It's almost like everyone gets 
the right like as a human being.

457
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:55,300
You get the right to issue a 
certain amount of unbanked debt 

458
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:58,300
per time period for the rest of 
your life. 

459
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,000
Life. 
Exactly. 

460
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:05,500
So so I mean there are also 
voices to say circuit is a 

461
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:09,200
Mutual Credit system and it is 
like it is it would be a 

462
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:15,700
different way to look at it. 
So if I have 100 circuits or 

463
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:19,500
let's say that's purely my Ubi 
that was issued to me. 

464
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:24,300
So my as you called it, my right
to produce that I could also say

465
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,900
this is actually 0 so everyone 
is at zero in the beginning but 

466
00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:33,100
everyone has a specific Credit 
limit and let's say it's 100 

467
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:37,500
units so everyone would be at 
zero and as soon as well but but

468
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:42,500
I can go up to -100 so I can 
also or one way to look at it is

469
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:45,400
I have hundred units at this 
moment that I can spend. 

470
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,800
And well now I spent 400 units 
now I'm at - hundred and you 

471
00:29:50,808 --> 00:29:54,300
might be a plus 100 and it's 
just in a way a different view 

472
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,900
on the same data to say everyone
is at 100. 

473
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:00,900
And now I'm at zero. 
You and you are at 200. 

474
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,000
What's? 
Of course, the difference is how

475
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,600
to what extent is there is the 
expectation from me. 

476
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:13,100
If I'm at either 0, or minus 102
to pay it back. 

477
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,800
And if if I met - hundred that 
the - already expresses these 

478
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,200
expectations that eventually I 
should go go back to zero with 

479
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,200
circles. 
Then expectation is to a lesser 

480
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,600
degree there and that's really 
also about The the social 

481
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:38,000
contract of Ubi so in general 
you be I says yeah you can it's 

482
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,400
unconditional so Universal so 
you don't have to do anything 

483
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,700
but of course the whole system 
can only work. 

484
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,200
If enough people but do 
something or give value into the

485
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:58,800
system, question is just does it
help to to kind of have the 

486
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,500
traditional Financial system to 
have the obligation to pay back.

487
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,500
The debt and kind of worst-case.
You need to go to jail or stuff 

488
00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:10,200
like that. 
Or is there enough intrinsic 

489
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,500
motivation from people too? 
Well later produced just out of 

490
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,300
their intrinsic, motivation 
value and Deuce do things. 

491
00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:24,100
And of course then offers those 
things to circuits also for 

492
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:25,700
circuits or for money in 
general. 

493
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,900
One question that kind of came 
up for me, thinking in this, 

494
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:34,400
like, trust context. 
So if you be, I wonder if the 

495
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,000
ideas of Ubi is also that you, 
you know, like everyone has 

496
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,500
access to it, right? 
And in this case, you have this 

497
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,700
requirement that you actually 
have existing people trusting 

498
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:47,000
you first. 
So do you think this 

499
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,400
discriminate? 
So is this like a problem for 

500
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,500
people who are like more 
marginalized or is it just that?

501
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,600
Okay, you have to cross this low
threshold but, you know, once 

502
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,500
it's crossed Sort of people are 
kind of equal. 

503
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,500
Yeah, I mean that's that's that 
is a good point and that is a 

504
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:08,700
fair criticism. 
We are sometimes facing and it 

505
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,400
really depends on. 
Yeah, I guess the social 

506
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,400
consensus of how this plays out 
so it did it could play out that

507
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:21,800
people only trust each other or 
kind of in a way enters this 

508
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,100
agreement where you can see 
circuits as some form of of 

509
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:28,800
agreement and you could imagine 
a world where people only do 

510
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,800
that. 
I only trust people wear No. 

511
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400
OK, they are I don't know 
wealthy and they will very 

512
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,800
likely produce something. 
Yeah, something valuable. 

513
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:46,500
But there is also this element 
if the social consensus shifts 

514
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:51,200
towards more UPI so than the Ubi
narrative prevails or kind of. 

515
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:54,200
Yeah winds and it becomes just 
the default Behavior. 

516
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,700
If you say yeah, they are human 
and they are in my network and I

517
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,900
trust them or that That's why I 
trust them, it others do this as

518
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:06,400
well. 
Then the tokens the individual 

519
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:12,000
tokens become much more fungible
because if if many people or at 

520
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,400
least within and was in a kind 
of was in a specific area or 

521
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,500
wizard kind of locally bound but
if many people like just have to

522
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,400
gather the default behaviors, 
they trust everyone. 

523
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:29,400
Who is also part of this social 
network or part of this place or

524
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,400
group then. 
Yeah, again, the tokens become 

525
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,800
much more fungible because now I
suddenly have some, some tokens,

526
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,200
let's say, like just go the 
example from this whatever poor 

527
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,500
person that I never expect, to 
to provide anything useful. 

528
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,500
But since everyone else, in my 
group is also trusting them. 

529
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,100
Those circles are not only 
backed by this person 

530
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:54,900
individually, but by its 
Network. 

531
00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:59,700
So, so if everyone can for 
Greece to this scheme in a way, 

532
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:05,100
well, Yeah, that is money and I 
can spend it within this network

533
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,100
then I don't care too much. 
What this was specific person 

534
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:15,100
might offer or not offer its 
really, then the network that 

535
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,300
yeah kind of carries people 
along with in their Network. 

536
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,300
Can you talk a little bit about 
how Sybil accounts are dealt 

537
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:29,400
with or handled in the system? 
Yeah, exactly. 

538
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,100
So that is again. 
Another another perspective or 

539
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:37,500
to look at circles is that there
are actually Plenty or at least 

540
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:42,500
five to ten blockchain, you bi 
projects that all have that 

541
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:46,400
shared goal. 
Let's just issue tokens and give

542
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,300
it out per person. 
And as you're hinting And your 

543
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:55,199
question is hinting to the big 
problem each of those projects 

544
00:34:55,199 --> 00:35:00,500
face is simple attack, or kind 
of who decides who can, who can 

545
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:02,800
join the network. 
And how do you prevent someone 

546
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,200
from just creating a hundred 
accounts in some or the other 

547
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,200
some of the other project, then 
try to come up with? 

548
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,800
Yeah, you need to kind of upload
your photo or do some, some kyc 

549
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:18,800
or whatever, but circles, tried 
to stay completely 

550
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,700
decentralized. 
So I No, no Central Authority 

551
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,500
whatsoever that kind of decides 
who can join. 

552
00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:30,500
But again relies on, on this 
trust Network. 

553
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:32,700
So again, how is it solved or 
how it is? 

554
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:37,800
It rests the Sibyl problem? 
It boils down really to the 

555
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:43,400
social consensus that you only 
should trust the person once. 

556
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,900
So if I kind of somehow, well, 
potentially go on Twitter but or

557
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:52,700
just in my network to People, I 
know the social, the strong sort

558
00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:56,700
of consensus needs to be, I can 
create circuits account but only

559
00:35:56,700 --> 00:36:02,500
one and as soon as someone would
ya would misbehave people should

560
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:07,400
not trust that person or it's 
very least, well, kind of only 

561
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:14,600
only one of those accounts what 
happens if someone does that. 

562
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,400
So, or let's say I'm trying to 
cheat, so you guys are trusting 

563
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,200
me was with It was my real 
account and that's all fine but 

564
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,100
then now I cheat an addition so 
I create a hundred hundred 

565
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,600
circles account and I trust all 
of them and kind of those 

566
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,000
hundred, they trust all each 
other and so on the important 

567
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,400
thing now to understand is as 
long as no real person is 

568
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200
trusting those those hundred 
fake accounts. 

569
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:52,100
Those hundred fake accounts can 
spend a small amount UND with in

570
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:55,000
the real Network let's say was 
with Sonny because they are 

571
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,300
connected to me and I'm 
connected to Sunny so this fake 

572
00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:03,100
person can take their fake 
tokens, send them to me and I 

573
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:06,200
sent the real tokens, my real 
tokens to you and you are happy 

574
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:12,400
accepting them but that only 
works until I run out of real 

575
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,100
Martin tokens because then the 
fact opens. 

576
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:19,800
Yeah. 
I mean, there is no so no liquid

577
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,200
Trust. 
Anymore. 

578
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:27,000
So, all I got was that I now 
have the fake token from from my

579
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,100
own fake accounts and they are 
not worth anything. 

580
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:35,300
So I didn't got any advantage by
doing that and again the system 

581
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,800
boils down to as long as people 
don't trust fake accounts. 

582
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,600
They are not affected by fake 
accounts, right? 

583
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,600
So basically you have almost if 
you think of it in these terms 

584
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,200
in this network topology, right?
Let's say you are a real 

585
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,100
account. 
Count and then you're connected 

586
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:55,300
with other real accounts and 
you're connected with like some 

587
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:57,700
fake accounts that then, you 
know, maybe there's a big swarm 

588
00:37:57,700 --> 00:38:02,200
of lots of fake accounts, the 
thing, when they kind of they 

589
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,500
can only go through you, 
exactly. 

590
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:09,100
And sort of like steal money 
through this, you know, this one

591
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,000
channel there is and that has 
this throughput limit right 

592
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,700
which is kind of the circles you
have. 

593
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,700
So yeah. 
That makes a lot of sense, 

594
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:18,100
right? 
And I think that's it's a very 

595
00:38:18,100 --> 00:38:19,700
elegant. 
Yeah. 

596
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:23,600
Say elegant. 
How do I detect that there? 

597
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,000
Are like someone out of several 
accounts. 

598
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,400
So, let's say I have like, you 
know, multiple groups of friends

599
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,900
that are somewhat, you know, 
isolated I go with my, you know,

600
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:36,500
football friends and, you know, 
I make an account with them, get

601
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,500
them all to trust me. 
And then I go with my leg crypto

602
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:41,100
friends and have them make an 
account. 

603
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:43,900
And I'll trust me. 
How would these two groups even 

604
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:47,200
be able to realize that their? 
I have a duplicate account? 

605
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,000
Yeah. 
I mean I think I wouldn't, I 

606
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,700
wouldn't make the claim that 
that is impossible. 

607
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,300
Specifically if you indeed would
have kind of two completely 

608
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,900
distinct or like a completely 
non overlapping networks, but I 

609
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:08,900
would claim a most people kind 
of did the networks are somewhat

610
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,600
overlapping. 
They're not kind of clearly 

611
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,800
separated. 
That's point. 

612
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,400
A and point B most people don't 
screw or don't want to screw the

613
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,200
kind. 
There people there, they have a 

614
00:39:19,207 --> 00:39:22,700
personal and direct relationship
or the kind of kind of their 

615
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:27,100
friends. 
So, yeah, I mean, s does assume 

616
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,600
some form of honest, Behavior 
within friends. 

617
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,200
But that being said that the 
damage that like, if one out of 

618
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,700
100 people are one out of a 
thousand people does that anyhow

619
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:45,100
and kind of might even succeed 
with that, the damage to the 

620
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:48,200
whole system is, I mean that 
would be a Problem. 

621
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,300
It's basically like a like maybe
half a percent of all money is 

622
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,800
counterfeit. 
What would be helpful though to 

623
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,100
do something? 
Like if let's say my address on 

624
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:06,700
the Chain was like the hash of 
my yeah legal name plus my 

625
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:10,400
birthday or something so that 
way when you know Brian comes 

626
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,400
along and says like hey here's 
this new. 

627
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,600
I just made a new account I can 
take his name and his birthday 

628
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,700
hash them and see if hey why is 
there already An account here, 

629
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:23,500
that is something we left open 
to a large degree because we 

630
00:40:23,508 --> 00:40:28,900
think those are social norms 
that will evolve and we don't 

631
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:30,400
exactly predict how they 
evolved. 

632
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,700
So currently we see really 
different behaviors of one. 

633
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:36,900
Is obviously like your Twitter 
account is like if you tweeted 

634
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:40,600
publicly, then it's well then 
it's already harder for you to 

635
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:44,000
if you use your normal normal 
like face and normal name on 

636
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,500
Twitter than it's already pretty
hard to say to kind of do. 

637
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000
Neither that or to, then create 
a second account, that's one 

638
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,400
way. 
But in other way is again there 

639
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,500
are those much more local in 
much more non blockchain or very

640
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,900
specifically in Berlin? 
We have we have groups where 

641
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:06,400
people just meet in person and 
it's much more personal and and 

642
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,200
yeah, there is this community 
where people know each other, 

643
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:15,900
and again, I think the 
likelihood that someone tries to

644
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,200
fraud that door. 
Brought really the people, they 

645
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,000
are directly interacting with 
seems reasonably low. 

646
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:26,500
Regarding this throughput notion
I mentioned before. 

647
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,100
So is it the case that basically
you know, this throughput limit,

648
00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:35,000
that each user has then also 
grows proportionally because 

649
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,700
they get, you know, every day 
they get more circles and do you

650
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:41,900
think that's a significant 
factor or yeah? 

651
00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:45,900
I mean, the throughput limit, I 
mean, the again, lip different 

652
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:48,900
ways to look at it. 
You couldn't say the total 

653
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,100
amount of circles you get or is 
sunny mentioned earlier, the 

654
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:55,100
total amount That you're allowed
to create. 

655
00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:57,700
Yeah, of course. 
The idea is that that 

656
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:04,800
continuously increases over 
time, one thing to note is trust

657
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,200
connections, or if we again, 
looking at this attack scenario,

658
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:13,900
well, you can cancel dressed 
connect trust connections so, 

659
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:19,200
well, if you feel like you are 
kind of drained, the circles are

660
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,100
just always drained immediately 
as As the throughput or kind of 

661
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,200
as a new secretary issued, for 
some reason, you always end up 

662
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,200
with those circles and you can 
never spend them anywhere. 

663
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,900
Then it might happen that you 
kind of talk to the person. 

664
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:36,100
Well, why can't I spend them 
anymore? 

665
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:38,900
Anywhere is why is no one else 
trusting you? 

666
00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:41,600
Why are you not offering 
anything? 

667
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:46,600
You know, an earlier version of 
the paper I remember there was 

668
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,400
like this concept of validators 
and it really different than 

669
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,200
like not. 
It's not like the Things like 

670
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,200
proof of stake validated, it's a
very, but then I noticed it was 

671
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,500
actually removed in the latest 
version of the paper. 

672
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:02,400
So could you tell us a little 
about what that was and why that

673
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,500
was removed? 
Yeah, so so those are things. 

674
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,500
So there were two concept of 
validators in groups. 

675
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:15,100
Those were just two things that 
are possible to build on top and

676
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:18,700
we just decided, okay. 
Let's let's have the pure the 

677
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:25,200
purest kind of basic version and
and If needed or if wanted, we 

678
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,300
can build those things on top 
and those are ideas to make it 

679
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:36,200
more practical for businesses to
get some in some form except 

680
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,500
circuits. 
So if we look at the business, 

681
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:43,400
it's not obvious like even if 
they want to accept circles and 

682
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,800
let's put for, for a moment 
aside, why would they want? 

683
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,400
And so on? 
But if they want to accept 

684
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,800
circles, then the question is 
what circles do they actually 

685
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,000
accept? 
They could say, yeah, only the 

686
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,800
circuits of the business owner. 
Well, I mean, that, that would 

687
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,200
be problematic because there are
only so many circuits. 

688
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,200
So kind of the total, the total 
amount of seconds, they could 

689
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,400
even potentially receive is 
limited. 

690
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,000
So, somehow they need to decide 
what circles they they accept. 

691
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,200
So maybe even in other words, 
whom step they are willing to to

692
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,300
accept. 
And and here, yeah, there is the

693
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,600
the concept or the can be a 
concept of. 

694
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:26,000
Of of validators or you could 
even call it like lists or 

695
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,500
something like that. 
So somehow there is a process to

696
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,100
to get onto a specific list and 
the list or one list could be 

697
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:38,600
maintained by. 
Well you need to show your real 

698
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,900
address. 
You need to live in a specific 

699
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,800
country or in a specific area 
and you need to to show your ID 

700
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,500
or whatever and if you do that, 
you are on this list and then 

701
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,000
kind of a business could 
subscribe to such a Start 

702
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,600
validator and say, well 
everyone, everyone who's part of

703
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,800
this list, all of those 
circuits, I accept. 

704
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,600
And again, The Next Step, that 
wouldn't mean that only people 

705
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,900
who are on those on this list, 
can can buy, or can spend their 

706
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:11,200
circles. 
But at least you need to be 

707
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,500
connected. 
You need again to have this 

708
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,500
liquid connection to someone 
who's who is on this list. 

709
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:20,800
So, yeah, I do actually imagine 
that. 

710
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:26,100
Yeah, that those those concept 
will or that, that will happen. 

711
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,700
Another way to think these lists
would be where they kind of be 

712
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:34,400
like these giant curved Finance 
style pools. 

713
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,000
Like you know here's a list of 
all these people who are 

714
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,300
approved and you know it's this 
and you can just Swap and any of

715
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:43,800
them for any of them that can 
kind of like massively increase 

716
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,500
the ability to pay for anyone 
that's on that list, right? 

717
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:50,900
Who said that cool. 
I mean, the way the trust 

718
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:56,900
network is already this kind of 
what gives you already the 

719
00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:02,500
ability to exchange across a 
pool or a graph. 

720
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,800
So circles should or can in a 
densely connected in a densely 

721
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,200
connected Network. 
All circuits are basically equal

722
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,500
because you can exchange or you 
find a path from any circles to 

723
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:18,300
every other circuits. 
But but if there are kind of 

724
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:22,000
models so slow Groups that are 
not in the graph. 

725
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,700
Is more Loosely connected. 
Yeah. 

726
00:46:23,700 --> 00:46:29,100
Then then some connections might
try out of try out of liquidity 

727
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:31,700
but 24 from from the business 
perspective. 

728
00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:34,000
It's not. 
Yeah really about it's not 

729
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,300
really about being able to 
exchange those but it's just a 

730
00:46:37,308 --> 00:46:39,200
question which are they willing 
to hold? 

731
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:44,800
So which what in a way again 
depth or what what risk or to 

732
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,300
some extent you can say holding 
money is a risk. 

733
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,800
The risk of will you ever get 
something Thing in return for 

734
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,900
it. 
I mean, this is also it's 

735
00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:57,900
amazing how much trust we have 
today in our dollars or Euros. 

736
00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:02,300
So we don't even think about 
that, that way that if we are 

737
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:04,900
selling something, we are 
already taking the risk because 

738
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:08,800
we are already giving away the 
good and we just received this 

739
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,900
as paper or maybe not even paper
in the hope that that we will 

740
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:17,900
eventually get something for it.
Of course we have so much trust 

741
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,700
in money. 
That we don't perceive it as a 

742
00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:25,600
risk to sell something and to 
receive money, but, yeah, in 

743
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,100
principle it is that risk to 
accept money. 

744
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,900
Now, you know, kind of speaking 
of a M&M's, like so far, we've 

745
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:36,600
been kind of assuming that 
anyone who's like on a trust 

746
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,300
path is willing to do a swap 
like 121. 

747
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:44,300
Like, you know, I'll take margin
token and send Brian some Sunny 

748
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,900
token 121. 
Like so far, there's been this 

749
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:49,200
assumption that trust is like a 
very binary. 

750
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:53,100
Anything in the real world. 
I feel it's not always as 

751
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:55,300
binary. 
Like you know if there's one 

752
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:57,500
token that I'm accepting you 
know, maybe that's okay. 

753
00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:01,400
But then if I'm expected to 
extend 10,000 dollars that you 

754
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,900
know, there's a higher default 
risk and stuff and so does it 

755
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:10,100
make sense to like have some 
sort of these people who are 

756
00:48:10,100 --> 00:48:13,400
along the payment path, they 
take fees and like using some 

757
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,600
sort of like bonding curves or 
amm kind of stuff too like 

758
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,000
account for this. 
Default risk as the amount to go

759
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,700
up. 
Yeah. 

760
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:26,100
So that can make sense you can 
one way to look at. 

761
00:48:26,107 --> 00:48:30,900
It is also to say if they are 
like three or four different 

762
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:35,400
passes, you should choose the 
shortest shortest and currently 

763
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,500
there is not really a I mean, 
currently it wouldn't matter. 

764
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:42,400
Even a long pass doesn't really 
cost you anything. 

765
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:48,800
So there are arguments clearly 
for such a system but there is 

766
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,600
at least at one point where I 
would argue against or at least 

767
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,300
that's not my idea of circuits 
is one way to interpret circles 

768
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:00,500
could be. 
Yeah, it's releases personal, 

769
00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:04,600
personal tokens and that's it's 
almost like equity in that 

770
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,600
person. 
So you say, kind of well, how 

771
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,800
much will this person probably 
kind of produce or do in the 

772
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,600
future and kind of depending on 
how educated or whatever kind of

773
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,800
that could be one way to look. 
Circles, but it's definitely not

774
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,600
the way I look at S 0 I would 
like to see Circle. 

775
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,500
So I would definitely like to 
see more of this perspective of 

776
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,300
UPI. 
And in that sense a trust is 

777
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:37,500
fairly binary because you can 
fairly binary say is that a real

778
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:40,400
person or not? 
There's not too much room in 

779
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,300
between. 
Here's a little bit of a weird 

780
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:46,300
question which is so far. 
We've talked about, you know, 

781
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:50,000
we've determined that this 
system is good in both are over 

782
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,800
time because that's people are 
born. 

783
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:53,800
You know. 
They can join the system. 

784
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:57,400
What happens when people die if 
I died tomorrow? 

785
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,500
Sunny tokens are already all 
throughout the network and more 

786
00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:04,000
Sunny tokens are keeping minted 
because my account is still 

787
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,200
existing on chain. 
So how do we deal with this? 

788
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,700
Yeah, yeah I know, I'm a good 
person so there can be 

789
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:14,300
different. 
So social consensus around how 

790
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:16,800
to deal with that. 
But the idea I would strongly 

791
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,500
advocate for is, first of all, 
of course, your minting should 

792
00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:24,800
stop. 
And we have already implemented 

793
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,700
that to some extent in circles 
because they are simply two 

794
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:31,400
statements, which or kind of 
this this concept that if you 

795
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,300
don't poke your account, at 
least every three months, then 

796
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:39,300
it will stop or then you will 
not be able to any yeah, you 

797
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:41,100
would basically need to create a
new account. 

798
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,400
After that. 
So that problem is to some 

799
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,000
extent solved. 
That means like I have this 

800
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,600
circle account. 
You know, I'm accumulating my 

801
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,000
circle, I have this like trust 
Network. 

802
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,200
Then I'm going six months on, I 
don't know, backpacking around 

803
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:02,000
the world and then my account 
is, is gone right now. 

804
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,200
Yes. 
So right now it means that if 

805
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,300
you, if you for three months 
don't do don't do anything. 

806
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,500
Yeah, again, your account is not
gone but it can't issue. 

807
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,600
Issue any anymore circuit. 
So what you would need to do is 

808
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:20,200
you would need to create a new 
account and basically tell all 

809
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,500
your friends, sorry, you can see
here's my own to all the count, 

810
00:51:24,500 --> 00:51:28,300
it's frozen. 
So, you can now securely trust a

811
00:51:28,308 --> 00:51:32,100
new account and no, I you can 
still trust the old account and 

812
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:36,500
you should because those brine 
circles should still be valid 

813
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:40,800
but they would then also need to
trust the new account if they 

814
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,600
want to. 
Give you while you can. 

815
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,000
Yeah, except you're going 
forward. 

816
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:48,600
Okay, so so I would still have 
two coins, the old coins. 

817
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:50,600
I would like that. 
Would need to create a new 

818
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,900
account, to, like start printing
again, or maintain. 

819
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:56,100
Yeah. 
I mean, like, like technically 

820
00:51:56,100 --> 00:52:00,300
speaking in the count is well, 
smart contract wallet and it's 

821
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,100
just enough to say factually, 
but so they're dead. 

822
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:06,700
You still have access to access 
to and all the all the tokens 

823
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:08,300
that are in there. 
You still have access to. 

824
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:14,100
But again, the the yeah, The 
minting contract will simply not

825
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:17,800
allow any meeting in the future 
more anymore, why not just let 

826
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,300
people kind of like reactivate 
your account to some extent 

827
00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:23,600
addresses Sonny's question 
about? 

828
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,800
Like, what, what is if people 
die, but to some extent, it also

829
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:31,700
deals with the problem. 
What if I lost my account? 

830
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:38,100
So if I if I just lost my key, I
mean kind of any form of 

831
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:41,500
reactivation is of course 
problematic because I mean who 

832
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,300
Who is allowed to do that and so
on. 

833
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,900
So if you lost the key in, there
is no Central Authority, well 

834
00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:51,800
General problem, but in circles 
is simple, answer would be. 

835
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,600
Well, you should create a new 
account, and now, but you now, 

836
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,600
you need to go to to the people 
that previously trusted you and 

837
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,200
say please. 
Now trust my new account. 

838
00:53:02,300 --> 00:53:07,100
And to do that, it's kind of 
necessary or it almost a 

839
00:53:07,100 --> 00:53:11,500
necessary condition that they 
can be assured that your 

840
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:14,800
Previous account, cannot be 
there look-alike suddenly 

841
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,900
suddenly mint tokens again and 
now you get it twice. 

842
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:22,100
So for you to kind of Clearly 
say, see it safe. 

843
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:26,600
This old one is deactivated, 
please do new one, it's yeah. 

844
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:32,700
So, one of the things about the 
economics of circles is that 

845
00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:36,600
the, you know, we have this sort
of, I forgot what the exact rate

846
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,200
was, but I'm getting like, you 
know, maybe 200 circles a month 

847
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,500
or something as this more 
circles being printed, this is 

848
00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:47,600
sort of causing this inflation. 
And that means like the real 

849
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,000
value of the Ubi over time is 
actually decreasing, because if 

850
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,700
there's only 200 circles being 
printed per month, how do we 

851
00:53:54,700 --> 00:54:00,500
make sure that you bi keeps up? 
You Pace with like inflation. 

852
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:04,000
Yeah, so exactly. 
So there is. 

853
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,800
So if the if the issuance rate 
would be fixed and currently it 

854
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:14,600
starts at eight circles day. 
So yeah, 240 roughly a month, 

855
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,300
believe that would be fixed. 
Then indeed, as you said, kind 

856
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:22,300
of the total amount of money in 
circulation giving a constant 

857
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:23,700
population. 
What? 

858
00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:26,200
Yeah, continuously. 
Increase over time. 

859
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,700
But you could then argue the 
relative amount that's kind of 

860
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:34,800
newly minted. 
Or given out as you bi would 

861
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,900
relative to the total amount 
actually converge over a long 

862
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:42,000
time towards zero. 
So, in a way, you could argue 

863
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,200
the flexion would go towards 
Europe. 

864
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:48,500
That could potentially mean that
the FBI also the value of the 

865
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:52,300
Ubi goes towards zero at least 
over a long, long time scale. 

866
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:55,700
And it would also raise. 
Again, this is fairness point, 

867
00:54:55,700 --> 00:55:00,700
so like future Generations would
say, well, why would I kind of 

868
00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:05,700
accept all Those old circles 
compared to me getting getting 

869
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:09,300
getting very little. 
So like taken to the extreme, 

870
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,400
let's say 200 years. 
Why should I kind of be it 

871
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,200
relevant? 
That the two hundred years ago. 

872
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,500
Someone lived, and issued 
circles, and why should I kind 

873
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:23,800
of Honor that in a way? 
So circles addresses this? 

874
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:29,000
And, and there's a nice concept 
behind it from another project 

875
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,400
called donator relative thing. 
You have money second suppresses

876
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:41,200
that by simply increasing the 
the Ubi by 7% by 7% a year so in

877
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,400
year one and eight units per day
and year to its eight units plus

878
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,000
seven percent and so on and so 
on. 

879
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:56,500
So that means that the rate of 
new Ubi will actually stabilized

880
00:55:56,500 --> 00:56:01,100
compared to the existing total. 
Yeah, money Moss. 

881
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,800
Given a given a fixed population
at by the way, more or less 

882
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:12,600
exactly those those seven 
percent that number is actually 

883
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:18,500
not too far away from from 
money, we are very used to and 

884
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:23,200
that is the US dollar. 
So if you simply look at at the 

885
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:28,500
monetary Mass M1 and you look at
the last 50 years, I think the 

886
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:31,300
the the increase of monetary 
Mouse. 

887
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,100
We're total dollars in 
circulation. 

888
00:56:34,300 --> 00:56:38,400
Increased roughly by that 7%. 
I think it's slightly less 66 

889
00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:41,900
percent per year. 
Cool. 

890
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,100
Well, question that kind of 
relates to this topic of, you 

891
00:56:47,100 --> 00:56:49,500
know, how much is this money 
worth and maybe how does it 

892
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:51,800
relate to like, you know, 
different people in any 

893
00:56:51,808 --> 00:56:57,600
different times in context. 
So a lot of these graphs right? 

894
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,900
Are kind of going to be local. 
I mean it It seems like that 

895
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:06,700
from the way you envision it. 
It could turn out that way at 

896
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:09,600
the same time, there's this idea
that, you know, like one Circle.

897
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:14,000
They all have the same value. 
So how do you see that like 

898
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,600
playing out? 
If you're going to have, you 

899
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,400
know, like some circles, you 
know, Network that, you know, 

900
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,700
trusting each other in, in some 
may be poor place in Kenya 

901
00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:30,300
versus, you know, in Berlin, 
some communities, you know, will

902
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:31,900
those sir? 
Circles. 

903
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:34,500
How do you think they will have 
different values in their local 

904
00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:38,500
context? 
Yeah, so that really depends on 

905
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:43,800
how strongly they are two graphs
or two two graphs are connected.

906
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:49,300
If there are 100 people in one, 
let's say in Berlin and everyone

907
00:57:49,300 --> 00:57:53,600
is connected with everyone 
there, it clear that all those 

908
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:58,000
circuits are basically fungible 
and and will have same value. 

909
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,800
Now in another place again 
another People are all connected

910
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,500
with each other. 
It within this context within 

911
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,700
the space, although circuits are
will have the same value. 

912
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,000
Now, let's assume just one or 
just out of out of those two 

913
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,600
groups, there's 11 trust 
connection. 

914
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:19,000
So, kind of out of this one 
group and out of group to those 

915
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:23,900
two people trust each other. 
So now for a very, very limited 

916
00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:29,000
capacity, there is the capacity 
to flow for Value to flow 

917
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,100
one-to-one. 
But then of course, It could 

918
00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:36,400
happen that this flow kind of 
dries out and that would be 

919
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,300
simply if any one out of this 
group makes a purchase or kind 

920
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:43,000
of in the other group. 
Then. 

921
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,600
Yeah, money flows out of this 
group to the other group. 

922
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,600
But then this connection is 
yeah, dried out or any more 

923
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,800
money cannot flow and with which
effectively means that the two 

924
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,400
groups are basically 
disconnected at this point. 

925
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,000
So and if they are disconnected,
of course. 

926
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,800
And then value or then, of 
course, they would have 

927
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,500
effectively different values. 
If the groups are like more and 

928
00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:13,900
more than somehow somehow 
connected and more and more 

929
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:18,100
people connect with each other. 
Again, the value would also then

930
00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:23,100
equal one question. 
I'm curious about, you know, 

931
00:59:23,100 --> 00:59:28,900
you've worked a lot on dolls and
you know, the of the, these 

932
00:59:28,900 --> 00:59:31,900
ideas of dolls. 
So, you know, enable, Like Mass 

933
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:34,100
collaboration, if like many, 
many people. 

934
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:39,600
Now, of course, this in a way, 
is about creating this web 

935
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,700
community of people always, you 
know, cryptokeys. 

936
00:59:44,100 --> 00:59:50,200
So do you see circles turning 
into like some kind of doll and 

937
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,300
like how what potential outcomes
there? 

938
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,700
I would not necessarily say 
circuits itself, would turn into

939
00:59:58,700 --> 01:00:02,900
a doubt, but clearly, we are 
already working on the are 

940
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:05,700
basically a circuit style. 
Basically, a dial that has the 

941
01:00:05,700 --> 01:00:10,100
goal to, to bring bring circuits
forward, but I would be very, 

942
01:00:10,100 --> 01:00:13,400
very cautious or simply. 
That's the direction. 

943
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,100
I would not want to give that 
Dow in some form power over 

944
01:00:17,100 --> 01:00:19,100
circles. 
So it's a core element of 

945
01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:23,200
circuits that it is, that there 
is no no governance. 

946
01:00:24,700 --> 01:00:28,900
So you see that's like it's a 
protocol that's like defined and

947
01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:33,500
that's not going to change. 
Well, I mean I mean, there is a 

948
01:00:33,500 --> 01:00:36,300
lot of going to change in at the
edges. 

949
01:00:36,300 --> 01:00:39,800
So basically, in the kind of all
the parts that is part of the 

950
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,400
social consensus of, should I 
form a trust connection or not? 

951
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,000
That is largely undefined. 
And that is, that is part in a 

952
01:00:47,008 --> 01:00:51,400
way where, where, governance 
happens, the very core rules are

953
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,300
really minimal. 
Probably the only Parameter that

954
01:00:56,300 --> 01:01:00,500
is that is something that is 
kind of worse. 

955
01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:07,600
Discussing is the, they could be
a thing where people might have 

956
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,200
different opinions about this. 
This is 7%. 

957
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:13,200
Other than that, for example, 
whether the issuance rate is 

958
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:18,400
eight or are 100, that doesn't 
really matter because you can, 

959
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,100
if you say the issues raised 
should be one will just create 

960
01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:24,200
an interface and call it one or 
a base. 

961
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,600
Really just create an 
alternative interface where you 

962
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,000
where you say kind of this is 
one unit you get per day. 

963
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,900
It's just a different view ones 
on the same graph. 

964
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:35,800
Yeah, I think that's really 
cool. 

965
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:42,200
When will comment it is indeed a
nice side effect of circles. 

966
01:01:42,900 --> 01:01:46,000
Also, to towards your Dow 
question, it is Annie a nice 

967
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,000
side effect of circuits that you
suddenly create. 

968
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,500
So this Public public 
peer-to-peer graph where 

969
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:59,600
everyone has a price. 
Key that alone is is something 

970
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:00,400
useful? 
Yeah. 

971
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,500
That's powerful. 
Yeah, exactly. 

972
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:04,000
Exactly. 
So, there are plenty of 

973
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:09,500
applications that can benefit or
that that could kind of use this

974
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,300
trust graph. 
Yeah, I kind of as a basis to 

975
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:18,200
get started so you could imagine
a rating system so anyone can 

976
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:21,200
kind of add a rating to the 
system, but of course then you 

977
01:02:21,207 --> 01:02:23,500
have the Civil attack problem 
and I think that is a real 

978
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:27,000
problem. 
Today in today's world was 

979
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:31,100
comments with ratings, whatever 
they get spammed by Bots, but if

980
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:34,500
you if you filter it through 
this trust graph and say 

981
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:39,400
basically yeah just just I 
follow the edges from from. 

982
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,200
I have this local view or this 
relative view from from my own 

983
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,000
perspective and I kind of weight
ratings, comments, whatever it 

984
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:51,100
is based on this graph. 
Yeah, that that is a powerful 

985
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:56,200
powerful tool in itself. 
Yeah, this is Really cool 

986
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,900
because there are actually going
to ask just about that next and 

987
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,700
how I actually first Came Upon 
circles. 

988
01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:07,100
Two years ago was exactly that, 
I wrote a rating system for open

989
01:03:07,100 --> 01:03:12,400
bizarre, that used like a web of
trust reputation system and on 

990
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,600
ethereum. 
And then one of the problems 

991
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,100
was, how do we get, how do we 
incentivize people to actually 

992
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:20,600
like make the trust connections?
I couldn't see any reason why 

993
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,000
people would be incentivized to 
do that in the first place. 

994
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,400
But what scoop then I About 
circles and I'm like, oh wait, 

995
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,500
this is so cool because this has
this is basically 

996
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:33,600
incentivisation for building up 
a social graph and then I can my

997
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,000
system can like bootstrap off of
that social graph and so 

998
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:39,800
backdrop, that kind of got me 
super excited and like you know 

999
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,800
these kind of trust graphs can 
be used for like pgp. 

1000
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,800
Like all sorts of cool things 
that like I'm a big fan of like 

1001
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:51,400
reputation systems and web of 
trust that's like probably one 

1002
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,100
of the most secure civil 
resistance It's probably even 

1003
01:03:55,100 --> 01:03:57,300
more so than like proof of 
stake. 

1004
01:03:57,300 --> 01:03:59,900
So yeah, I'm pretty excited 
about this kind of stuff. 

1005
01:04:00,700 --> 01:04:05,300
So, the next question though is 
like taking it to the real world

1006
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:07,900
side is how do we like Drive 
demand for this? 

1007
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,300
And when we say this is a Ubi, 
this is meant to be this like 

1008
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,700
sort of parallel economy. 
We're not going to see like 

1009
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,200
hyper or Circle ization or 
anything. 

1010
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,600
If I'm a merchant how do I even 
know how to start accepting 

1011
01:04:21,900 --> 01:04:24,300
circles on how to price my 
things and sir? 

1012
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,200
Goals. 
The best route will be, and that

1013
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,500
is what we are. 
Currently preparing, is have 

1014
01:04:32,500 --> 01:04:38,000
local groups, it does, for sure,
make make make most sense in a 

1015
01:04:38,008 --> 01:04:42,100
local context to have a group of
people in the same physical 

1016
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:45,000
place that together want to 
start circuits. 

1017
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,200
And by the way, we already have 
that. 

1018
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,200
We are starting this list and we
I think we have 80 or 90 people 

1019
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,300
are places that said, yeah, I 
want to start circles in 

1020
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,800
Venezuela. 
I want to Circuits in Buenos 

1021
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,800
Aires, in Shenzhen and whatever,
really, really all all over the 

1022
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,200
world. 
So it's way to go to kind of 

1023
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,600
organize locally or slogan is 
also kind of build your local 

1024
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,400
economy. 
One really nice story I already 

1025
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:14,600
have or we already have was 
someone who said, yeah, I'm 

1026
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:21,700
small landlord in Cadiz in Spain
and I have here, a few shops in 

1027
01:05:21,700 --> 01:05:25,400
my building and because of 
Corona, they are struggling to 

1028
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,300
pay the the rent. 
So what I did is I said, okay, 

1029
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:33,500
you can pay part of of the rent 
in circles under the condition 

1030
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:37,700
that you then in your shop 
except circuits and of course 

1031
01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:41,400
those are kind of the perfect. 
Yeah what kind of stories are 

1032
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,400
ways? 
How we how we could imagine 

1033
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:48,400
circles getting bootstrapped. 
And we're trying to develop this

1034
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:55,700
Playbook of how to locally get 
community going that again. 

1035
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:00,200
In a way, is giving each other 
this basic income because that's

1036
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,300
what, what circuits is. 
So the basic income will, of 

1037
01:06:02,308 --> 01:06:05,100
course not come from, kind of 
out of nowhere. 

1038
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:08,500
It will come from the people 
that are using using circuits 

1039
01:06:08,500 --> 01:06:11,300
and they would in a way if 
someone is receiving the basic 

1040
01:06:11,300 --> 01:06:13,000
income. 
Of course, they are receiving it

1041
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,700
from their network, from their 
Community. 

1042
01:06:17,700 --> 01:06:21,400
What is your take away from like
the, you know, it's about what 

1043
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,600
three or four weeks in now about
the initial show? 

1044
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:30,400
Social graph bootstrapping, is 
it a healthy like natural graph?

1045
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,600
Or is it like barking and his 
friends right now? 

1046
01:06:33,900 --> 01:06:38,100
Well, it's definitely well 
beyond my friends. 

1047
01:06:38,100 --> 01:06:41,500
I think it's currently 40,000 
40,000 accounts. 

1048
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,800
It there were two parallel. 
Fairly disconnected graph. 

1049
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:52,200
So we actually started it at a 
local event here. 

1050
01:06:52,300 --> 01:06:55,200
In Berlin, we had, we had a 
meeting or a Meetup or in. 

1051
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,700
There was already a process of 
months before that, we like 

1052
01:06:59,700 --> 01:07:03,300
talked to very different 
entities here and there was 

1053
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:06,500
There was an event was 50/50 
people. 

1054
01:07:06,500 --> 01:07:09,900
And that was really kind of the 
at the moment circles Network. 

1055
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,500
The contract was deployed 
technique. 

1056
01:07:11,500 --> 01:07:15,300
Technically speaking, the 
circuits launch and those are 

1057
01:07:15,300 --> 01:07:18,200
people that are really not on 
crypto Twitter and kind of not 

1058
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:23,400
really at all into crypto. 
And then at the same time or if 

1059
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:27,000
you like maybe 12 hours later, 
of course, it went somewhat 

1060
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:32,500
viral on Twitter and their. 
Yeah, I mean they're the graph 

1061
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:34,600
was formed. 
In a quite different way. 

1062
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:40,900
So they're the graph formed 
still, I think, largely Still 

1063
01:07:40,900 --> 01:07:44,000
Still across people that know 
each other, but of course, 

1064
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,500
knowing each other. 
From from Twitter is, I mean the

1065
01:07:47,500 --> 01:07:50,100
date was a much more 
International graph or kind of a

1066
01:07:50,100 --> 01:07:53,000
graph where people that were 
physically in the same place. 

1067
01:07:53,500 --> 01:07:57,700
So, yeah, that will be 
interesting how that will play 

1068
01:07:57,700 --> 01:08:00,800
out and kind of how meaningful 
those connections. 

1069
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:07,700
So I guess Twitter. 
You can be first the the things 

1070
01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:09,500
that can be sold. 
Yeah. 

1071
01:08:09,500 --> 01:08:14,900
Traded or exchanged digitally. 
I mean, there is, of course 

1072
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:21,000
things and one experiment I will
do soon as selling an N of t or 

1073
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,399
like digital art or whatever for
S. 

1074
01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:27,899
So, of course, there are things.
You can also, there's also route

1075
01:08:28,100 --> 01:08:32,800
for circuits to go, but we are 
definitely very much also into 

1076
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:38,899
the Very local, very concrete, 
very down-to-earth like stuff 

1077
01:08:38,899 --> 01:08:43,200
like Urban gardening or farming,
or yeah, that world. 

1078
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:47,800
One of the most common things 
that have been said about like, 

1079
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,600
you know, circles after the 
launch was the ux issues right 

1080
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,200
now currently like you have to 
like to like write down their 

1081
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,399
seed phrase and stuff and it 
feels like using crypto from 

1082
01:08:57,399 --> 01:09:00,399
like 2016. 
Again, what was the reason for 

1083
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:03,300
not like integrating with like, 
you know, Common web three. 

1084
01:09:03,500 --> 01:09:07,300
Act and think like that. 
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it

1085
01:09:07,300 --> 01:09:13,100
really depends from what 
perspective you are looking. 

1086
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:17,899
So for someone who is already in
crypto, it was weird that we 

1087
01:09:17,899 --> 01:09:22,500
would not have whatever metal 
mask support and so on. 

1088
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,899
But the reasons not to do that 
was exactly because we were 

1089
01:09:26,899 --> 01:09:29,899
targeting primarily the non trip
to users. 

1090
01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:34,300
So what we were what we would, 
our goal was that in a user that

1091
01:09:34,300 --> 01:09:39,100
hasn't heard about crypto and 
has a phone can pay their coffee

1092
01:09:39,100 --> 01:09:42,800
with circles with with phone. 
So it was absolutely not an 

1093
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,000
option to kind of require them 
to have met a mask. 

1094
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,600
Then to send some X Dy where I 
mean actually like fund your 

1095
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:55,000
account so that you that you do 
not pay your gas costs and so 

1096
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,700
on. 
So on this node circles is 

1097
01:09:57,700 --> 01:10:02,000
running on X Dy. 
It's basically an etherium clone

1098
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,300
or it's basically the same as 
Theorem. 

1099
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:09,600
But with a simpler proof of 
authority consensus algorithm, 

1100
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:15,300
who's paying the fees right now?
Yeah, so the fees are actually 

1101
01:10:15,300 --> 01:10:20,100
paid. 
We have a relay relay Network so

1102
01:10:20,100 --> 01:10:25,000
transactions are relayed and 
yeah, kind of a circle circles. 

1103
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:30,600
Wallet is paying those gas fees 
in X time, but are actually 

1104
01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:36,000
refunded in circles. 
So, the user is paying the, some

1105
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,900
circuit, some tiny amount of 
circuits to the relay service 

1106
01:10:38,900 --> 01:10:42,200
and the relay service is paying 
the fees next day. 

1107
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:46,000
Luckily fees on next day are 
basically close to zero. 

1108
01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:48,400
So it's not not really a 
concern. 

1109
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,900
But again, talking about the ux 
perspective. 

1110
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:53,000
Yeah. 
I mean, you can I mean I of 

1111
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,600
course, if we got the the 
messages from from the crypto 

1112
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,800
world that they would prefer a 
kind of the metal mask proud, 

1113
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:06,400
but again, I would argue ux in a
way Is made made made quite some

1114
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:07,800
steps. 
So, because we are again, 

1115
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,100
abstracting all this signing of 
transactions. 

1116
01:11:11,100 --> 01:11:14,800
We are basically using this 
burner burner style wallets of 

1117
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:18,400
your private key is in your 
browser. 

1118
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:24,900
So you can just press regular 
buttons in the the app basically

1119
01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:28,400
to send transactions without 
any. 

1120
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:30,600
Yeah. 
Pop-ups metal mask pop-ups or 

1121
01:11:30,608 --> 01:11:35,000
stuff like that. 
One last question for my side 

1122
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:38,900
is, how does this work on like 
layer to system? 

1123
01:11:38,900 --> 01:11:43,300
So, Circle system is like 
existing on X Dy. 

1124
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,400
You know, it's funny. 
Usually we think of aetherium as

1125
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,200
the layer 1 and then like, 
actually I would be like a layer

1126
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,500
2, but let's say I wanted to 
move some of the circles onto a 

1127
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:52,300
theory on. 
How do I make a payment? 

1128
01:11:52,300 --> 01:11:56,900
If all the like social graph 
Pathways and everything were 

1129
01:11:56,900 --> 01:12:01,400
still stuck on the X Dy chain. 
So how do I do that or like, how

1130
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,400
would I do this? 
Mike payment channel that have 

1131
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,500
you thought much about layer two
systems? 

1132
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:12,300
Yeah, so in general I would say 
circulars can scale quite well 

1133
01:12:12,300 --> 01:12:17,300
because you don't need the 
global State, you only care 

1134
01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:20,700
about your local state. 
So there are indeed scalability 

1135
01:12:20,700 --> 01:12:23,800
Solutions like, lightning or 
yeah. 

1136
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:28,700
Equivalent would be Raiden that 
would somewhat Naturally Fit fit

1137
01:12:28,700 --> 01:12:31,400
for circuits. 
The question of whether you can 

1138
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,600
move your circles to other 
blockchains. 

1139
01:12:35,100 --> 01:12:37,300
Well, I think that is not 
fundamentally. 

1140
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,200
From any other token. 
So yeah, you can like wrap it or

1141
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,600
lock it on the one block chain 
and then issued on the other 

1142
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,600
Block Chain, of course 
potentially, it does make it 

1143
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:50,100
more complicated. 
That you have so many different,

1144
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:54,200
different circuits and indeed. 
The circuit are, of course, much

1145
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,800
more helpful. 
If you, if you have, if you can 

1146
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,900
exchange them, if you can do 
them along the cross connection.

1147
01:13:01,900 --> 01:13:05,900
But it's, of course, not 
Unthinkable that that you have 

1148
01:13:05,900 --> 01:13:08,900
some. 
I mean, even even frog from a 

1149
01:13:08,900 --> 01:13:12,400
user perspective, that they have
some tooling to just take all 

1150
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:16,400
their trust connections and kind
of copy them to another system 

1151
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:20,400
and say yeah, I don't care if I 
exchange the circle to 1 to 1 

1152
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,200
here and this system or on that 
other system. 

1153
01:13:24,300 --> 01:13:26,400
Cool. 
Well, thanks so much for coming 

1154
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,300
on Martin. 
Maybe your final thing. 

1155
01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:33,000
If people want to get involved, 
when I like help out a lot of 

1156
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,800
this vision. 
And, you know, when I went to 

1157
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,800
bring it to reality, what are 
the best ways to get involved? 

1158
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:44,200
Oh yeah, but that is super 
important because also for 

1159
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:49,800
people to know, circles is to 
this point has very small core 

1160
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,900
team, so it's a project that 
kind of was described all Really

1161
01:13:53,900 --> 01:13:56,500
think the first the oldest 
description is seven years old. 

1162
01:13:56,500 --> 01:13:59,800
But so there is, I guess, a 
wider community of people who 

1163
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,700
somehow followed it and then 
somehow are like, I guess like 

1164
01:14:03,700 --> 01:14:07,300
it, but the core team was 
actually, is actually very, very

1165
01:14:07,300 --> 01:14:09,700
small or people who are working 
full-time. 

1166
01:14:09,900 --> 01:14:13,900
So it's just five people and 
doesn't have any funding. 

1167
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,400
And also doesn't have the 
interest to kind of go Venture 

1168
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,900
funded route. 
So yeah, Chuckles will very much

1169
01:14:19,900 --> 01:14:27,100
depend on more people getting 
Both the options are numerous so

1170
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,100
cards. 
Everyone who is a developer is 

1171
01:14:30,100 --> 01:14:33,100
very welcome. 
We are or there is already the 

1172
01:14:33,100 --> 01:14:37,500
process starting to started to 
create alternative. 

1173
01:14:37,500 --> 01:14:40,000
Wallets. 
Probably also wallets that are 

1174
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:45,000
more crypto kind of more towards
the crypto users. 

1175
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,200
So of course, it's principle, of
course, possible to use circles 

1176
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:50,900
with Smita mask, or with other 
wallets. 

1177
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:54,400
Yeah, that's number one. 
Number two, is Again, we are. 

1178
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:59,800
There's this process of finding 
local communities and ideally 

1179
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:04,000
there will be local meetup 
groups that yeah, explore the 

1180
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:08,900
option to start a local circles 
economy, so that that will be 

1181
01:15:09,700 --> 01:15:13,200
number two. 
Number three, is we, for sure, 

1182
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,800
our for will start launching 
circles. 

1183
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:23,100
Dow just as another yeah. 
Entity to follow and support and

1184
01:15:23,100 --> 01:15:28,000
kind of Yeah, basically take 
place in shaping shaping 

1185
01:15:28,300 --> 01:15:32,600
development around in circles, 
and then of course, there is, 

1186
01:15:32,700 --> 01:15:38,300
there's plenty of things, kind 
of social norms that need to be 

1187
01:15:38,300 --> 01:15:41,700
developed or kind of, basically 
just discussion around. 

1188
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:46,600
What is The Right Use? 
And and number a number five? 

1189
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:51,000
Just just be experimental, so 
they are, there are people that 

1190
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,400
said, okay, let's start round of
Poker. 

1191
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:58,300
ER, with circles, I remember in 
the old in the old kind of 

1192
01:15:58,300 --> 01:16:01,600
Bitcoin days, you had those 
people who did this experiment, 

1193
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,800
I want to live one week, only on
bitcoin the eventually. 

1194
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,600
It was then a month and 
eventually it was the whole year

1195
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:13,300
traveling around the world. 
Kind of those things happened. 

1196
01:16:13,500 --> 01:16:16,700
And, of course, then this 
element of is there anything I 

1197
01:16:16,700 --> 01:16:20,400
can offer for circles. 
So, what we already saw is just 

1198
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:25,000
telegram groups where people 
similar to Craigslist or Or Ebay

1199
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,000
would sell their used, probably 
some use stuff. 

1200
01:16:29,500 --> 01:16:34,200
What I could very well, imagine 
is an Airbnb alternative that 

1201
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:36,800
you say. 
Yeah, I rent out my apartment 

1202
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,800
over the weekend for circles. 
And by the way, here, also, this

1203
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:46,600
kind of idea of the trust line 
might be interesting because at 

1204
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:50,300
least, there is the connection 
that if a person comes, you can 

1205
01:16:50,300 --> 01:16:52,100
kind of through the circle 
payment. 

1206
01:16:52,100 --> 01:16:58,100
See how How you are, it can to 
some extent established in some 

1207
01:16:58,100 --> 01:17:00,700
form of initial trust. 
If you have those, okay, I know 

1208
01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:03,500
them over them over them, but 
but yeah. 

1209
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,000
So basically just find creative 
ways to to use circles. 

1210
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:10,900
Cool. 
Well, thanks so much for coming 

1211
01:17:10,900 --> 01:17:13,800
on Martin and I'm excited to see
how to projects going to 

1212
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:15,800
develop. 
I've also like signed up today 

1213
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:19,300
and I actually just now, 
finally, the, I think some of 

1214
01:17:19,300 --> 01:17:23,000
these trust authentication sweet
like, stock for a while but 

1215
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,300
finally, that SRI now, so I'm 
excited to like, try it out and 

1216
01:17:26,300 --> 01:17:29,000
play around with it. 
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

1217
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,000
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1218
01:17:33,300 --> 01:17:34,900
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1219
01:17:35,500 --> 01:17:38,300
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1220
01:17:38,300 --> 01:17:41,400
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1221
01:17:41,700 --> 01:17:44,500
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1222
01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:47,500
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast, go to 

1223
01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:50,600
epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for
a full list of places where you 

1224
01:17:50,608 --> 01:17:53,200
can watch and listen, while 
you're there, be sure to sign up

1225
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:56,000
for the newsletter, you get new 
episodes in your inbox as 

1226
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,400
they're released if you want to 
interact with us guests or other

1227
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,000
podcast listeners. 
You can follow us on Twitter and

1228
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:03,300
please leave us a review on 
iTunes. 

1229
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:05,900
It helps people find the show 
and we're always happy to read 

1230
01:18:05,900 --> 01:18:09,200
them with thanks so much and we 
look forward to being back next 

1231
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:09,500
week.