This is epicenter episode 365 with guest Martin Coleman.
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Apple Today, our guest is Martin Coleman, Martin is the CEO of
gnosis and he's been on the show.
Well, this would be a third appearance.
He was on the show way back in the early days of gnosis, and
about two years ago to talk about d x.
Dou. Well, he's back on today to talk
about another project on which he's working, and that is
circles. Ubi.
Now, you may have heard of circles.
Ubi, I believe it's one of the most serious attempts in the
space to create Universal basic income based economies.
On on a blockchain, and does a couple of really unique things
about it. First, it's fully decentralized.
So it doesn't leverage kyc or any form of identity to prevent
against Sybil attacks and they built in this really interesting
and robust trust mechanism where you essentially kind of create
webs of trust within the circles Ubi ecosystem.
The other interesting thing about it is that it's built on
the PO a network which is an ethereal side.
And there's several benefits to doing this one.
Well, the transaction fees are very low there, nearly zero and
transactions, settle very fast and it leverages X Dy which is
12 1 Peg of die on POA to achieve stability.
Lastly, what I like about this project is the way it's
positioned. It doesn't Market itself
specifically to anyone in crypto but rather it tries to to
position itself as an ecosystem and a protocol that can help
anyone create and promote a local economy within their
community. And I think this is very
powerful and especially in the current context of covid, where
lots of local businesses are hurting and depending on their
neighbors, and people in their Community to shop and consume in
their business. So, having this available, Bowl
as a tool at our disposal at societies, disposal is really
powerful in France. There are several local
currencies that exist all across the country in different
communities. There's one here in the Paris
area, but a lot of times, I don't think these are very
attractive for people to use because their paper based mostly
very few of them have digital payments.
And I think for a lot of people, the probably isn't very much of
an incentive to use them save for, perhaps a discount at local
businesses. But you have to buy these
currencies here with a circles Ubi, those are huge incentive to
use it because you're essentially get this currency
are dropped to your account at a fixed interval.
So, I'm really glad, we finally got Martin on to talk about this
and I hope you enjoy it. Before we go to the interview,
I'd like to tell you about the webinar that Al Gore and is
hosting next week. It's on Tuesday, November, 17th.
And here, you'll learn all the basics of building your own defy
application on Al Gore. And what's great about a Legrand
is that they've built a lot of The Primitives that you need to
build sophisticated defy apps right into the protocol.
So, I'll tell you a little bit more about that later on during
the interview. But if you'd like to sign up, go
to Al Gore and.com epicenter. And sign up for the webinar next
week and with that. Here's Brian and sunny.
Interviewing, Martin compliment. Hi and welcome.
We are here today with Martin Copper Mountain Resort on the
show. I think for the third time he's
of course the founder of gnosis the prediction markets company
that we've also had on the podcast before.
You know he's worked on some other things like the X down to
trading decentralized exchange Technologies.
With closest, they've worked on the save.
So really quite a lot of different stuff.
And he's been part of the theorem Community for a long
time. I know him from the Bitcoin,
Minos back in Berlin in 2013 when we started those.
And so today, we are going to speak about another project that
Martin has been working on for a long time.
I remember talking with Martin about this, I don't know,
probably three years ago or something.
So a long time ago and you said you circles It's and circles is
the idea for having a decentralized basic income
project and yes, it's something you've been working on for a
long time. I remember working here, at full
node with some people small team that has been working on that,
like two years ago, maybe so it's been germinating for a long
time, but now circus is kind of launched and is getting, you
know, some traction, some usage. And so yeah, we wanted to have
mine on to dive into Ubi And you know, circles in particular and
how to project aims to you know, create a new economic system.
So thanks so much for coming on Martin.
Yeah, thanks for everything. Me, looking forward to the
conversation. So let's start at the beginning.
Like why do you find this idea of basic income?
Interesting? There are really, really many
reasons. There are many reasons why you
can find basic income. Interesting it's enabling human
potential. I guess making the world a
better place. Making the world a safer Place,
making the world more technologically advanced days,
make the world, a more culturally Rich place.
So yeah, the idea is, if people don't have to worry about their
very basic needs are not trapped.
Kind of being afraid to not being able to pay their food and
their rent that people can unleash their potential and Ubi
just seems the best way. And the most efficient way to do
that, just set this basic floor where everyone can can stand on
and contrived above that. Yeah, you can have you can have
a competitive economy or you can have market-based Economy but
but yeah there's this this basic floor where no one can fall
below that floor. That's roughly the idea of epi
So could you explain the, what is a Ubi in the first place?
And how is this different than, you know, welfare systems that
we already have today and looks countries?
Yeah, no. I think I think Universal basic
income Ubi the core ideas. The car idea is that simply
everyone gets it, and it's independent of of your personal
situation. So it's not that makes it all so
very To implement it because you don't need any burocracy to
decide is this person, legible, you don't have weird rules that
sometimes create perverse incentives.
So if you have some welfare sometimes it's a problem to
start earning money or start working because that it's the
same time with kind of cut your welfare.
And it's actually then, potentially not even worse it.
So, and Ubi is just very, very simple concept of saying, Seeing
everyone gets a specific amount. Probably a month or week, that,
that doesn't really matter, but it simply continuously paid out
to every. Yeah.
Usually, citizen as long as they are alive, I feel the way you've
described like the need for you. Bi comes off as a very sort of
utopian vision for it. I say this in the comparison to,
you know, I think you bi has become Wait a, you know,
everyday term now thanks to like you know the u.s. presidential
candidate, Andrew Yang kind of like bringing it into the
commonplace at least here in the US.
But his approach his seems almost like a more dystopian
like or like we need Ubi because like this automation is taking
our jobs and like we need this to like survive a society.
Well you seem to take a much more like possibly even if it's
automation wasn't an issue. Like even in today's world,
World where there is an abundance of jobs.
If you still think that the Ubi is like a positive force.
And so what is the talk a little bit about this?
For sure? I mean, I see the the automation
as wonderful things so I mean basically means that people are
free to do something else. It's to me absurd that we that
creating jobs is a goal. I mean, like, our goal should be
to get rid of jobs too. Great of work.
I mean like there is no. I mean like the idea that we
need to find something that people can work, that seems
absurd to me. We need to find, we need to make
sure that that we can produce stuff and that we that we get
things done, that we need to get done.
But the explicit goal to say, well, we need that human has
something that they can spend their time on.
That hip seems absurd to me. Of course, I understand, I
understand where it's coming from, it's coming from.
Well, if people don't have easy or kind of straightforward way
to get income and so on. So I understand that logic but
if you zoom a little bit out, it seems really, I mean crazy to
say, we need to make sure that there is stuff to do if we can
organize society that lets people into work and everyone
gets what they want. That's that should be great.
Yes, I saw this video by Bruce, Fenton, like the other day on
Twitter where he talked about Ubi, and he thought it was like
such an absurd idea because, you know, it would mean giving money
to, like, lazy people or people who are not talented.
And it struck me such a like, where's this coming from?
Because it seems like it's strange idea to me on some way,
but I think if you're, you know, if you see it as maybe there's
more dislike Zero Sum game, and there's a limited amount.
And, you know, if you give it to the wrong people, then you kind
of end up in this bad situation, then I kind of understand how
this makes sense, but if you if you think of the world more one
where there is this like abundance and there is actually
enough then it just seems like it would be such a great thing
if you can have this basic level sort of distributed to everyone.
So yeah, I think it's it's such a great vision.
I mean, also one way to look at it is what I mean, if you, if
you say well, you shouldn't give it, you shouldn't give it to
those people. So, what is the consequence?
I mean, like, let's be ready. Cool here in our thoughts, at
least and say what should be the consequence for those people
died. Then, I mean, of course, no one
should die. And no one should they will not,
no one will disappear. No one, no one should die.
No one should not have enough to eat.
So somehow, and it does this but true already.
So Everyone obeys, almost everyone living in the years
living in Europe, somehow has an income.
So it is already whatever the source is, but but people are
usually not starving and are usually not dying because they
can't get an income. So they, they, they get an
income. So the difference is, of course,
not unconditional. So right now, to get this
income, you need to do things, you need to to work.
And basically, What a basic income is doing is it's not even
changing the fact that everyone gets at least, it's just your
basic income. It just changes.
The fact that they get it, everyone gets it unconditional.
So yes you are indeed taking away power from people who have
money. So they have obviously everyone
who has money has now less power over people who have no money
because now everyone Some money and basically the basic income
gives you the option to say no. So it gives you the option to be
if a job is offered to negotiate, you have better
better bargaining position. But yeah, again the the people
have incomes already. One of the like, very
interesting things about UB is it seems to have ethical
political goal as a team, to have pretty wide support from
like all different. And sot, like spectrums of the
political Spectrum, like, you know, libertarian, see it as
like this way of like, simplifying, the welfare system.
I feel like a lot of free market people see this as a way of like
encouraging entrepreneurship. So I think it's a very
interesting like being that the kind of breaks past the
traditional, like, socialism capitalism divide that we
normally see in like, political debates.
And what's with you, bi, of course often right been like,
you know, often people think of it in the context of like a
nation-state, right? And where it's going to be
funded through taxation you know like what do you think are the
pros and cons of that versus you know this more circles approach
of trying to build something that's, you know, Global and
decentralized and where you kind of like printing this new coin.
Exactly. So I have definitely no issues
with the nation Nation issued Ubi and of course, I would
encourage that. And luckily several states are
humming softly moving in this direction, or at least talking
about it. So it's not not anymore,
something that's Unthinkable, but at the same time, yeah, I
mean, it's exciting that, well, we have no technology to
coordinate humans and Yeah, do things without nation-states.
So one way to look at circles is simply to say, well, we can get
there quicker, we can just do it ourselves in a way.
But another way to look at it is also the I do have my skepticism
towards nation-states, so kind of at least my my personal
experience, the way my life Works States play only, probably
a weird growth because kind of my connections are Not long
nation's borders. So the way I the people I
interact was are definitely not kind of only people in Germany
or something like that so it does make sense to me to also
organize to organize something like a Ubi across those personal
connections that exist instead of those artificial nation
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So maybe before we go into like understanding circles a little
bit and you know the I the circus heavier you know what do
you hope will be the on the kind of like the broadest level.
You can think like it and if circles like fully succeeds what
do you hope to impact on the world will be?
Well, the hope of you bi are the hopes of you bir.
Well, get rid of poverty again, have technological advancement
advancements because more people can I can kind of take risks be
entrepreneurs. So yeah, I think the the picture
you could paint is is pretty, it might be pretty amazing.
What could come out of your bi Cool.
Okay, well then let's let's dive into Circle.
So like how I mean the idea of course, is to reach many people
here and so many, of course, also means many like non crypto
people and blockchain systems often hard to understand for
non-capital people. So, like, in your efforts, to,
like, on board people, on two circles.
Like, how do you explain the system?
Yeah. I mean that is indeed something
that varies very much from from who you are talking to.
But one way is to describe circles as a tool to give
communities or groups of people. Yeah.
This tool to give each other Ubi to organize.
Yeah. Within a group Ubi.
That's one way to describe it. Another way to describe it is to
say, let's look at money and Let's say we can take an
existing money system. Yeah.
The dollar, the Euro, whatever, and build a Ubi on top.
So we could have a state. Yeah.
The state organizers and build the UI on top or if we want this
Ubi anyhow, we could already baked it into the money system.
So we could just have a money that has the eye.
Yeah, directly implemented and that and then the third
narrative is from probably those who come more fun From the
Bitcoin world, for example, or that at least, no Bitcoin.
Here's the story goes, well, Bitcoin showed it is possible to
to, to design money, I guess or Bitcoin show to the world that
money in itself is not a neutral thing.
Instead money is something with choices and kind of work.
Well, there is an agreement about how it works, and, and
that is not neutral. So the money system contains
specific values, or potentially, Is some people over others.
And that is the third way to look at circles to say, just we
want money, but we want to Design Fair, we want to design
the money, that no one is specifically preferred, and I
think Bitcoin did that already to a large degree, in the sense
that it took away a lot of, almost all political power from,
from the money system. So no one in Bitcoin has
political power over Bitcoin, but you can argue in a specific
sense. It was not very fair.
It heavily heavily favored. Early adoption.
So like if you look globally at Bitcoin, or if you would see
well, let's let's imagine. There's an island and there are
hundred people on this island and they kind of somehow agree
to what money should we use. And let's say, to people on this
island, have an acid and only they have it and they say, okay,
look everyone, there's only a limited Supply and no one
controls it let's use this asset.
The money and they tried to convince the other 99, this is
it. I mean, that's basically how the
situation today globally is on bitcoin.
So there is so as opposed to people like on the global scale,
basically the one those who hold Bitcoin today and they are
trying to convince the other 98. Yeah.
That's Eddie also choose by the way, we already hold 90% of the
tokens but well still, when you had your chance you you could
have joined earlier. So in a way circles that again,
third way to Look at circles, is to say, well, we want to spare
money, but we want to make it also fair in in more Dimensions.
So process of minting, new money is, first of all, yeah, everyone
benefits from that. And not even just like in space,
so kind of cross like, across the whole world, and not just in
one area, but also in time. So also kind of the Next
Generation or people who are born tomorrow, they also Yeah,
kind of benefiting from, from this money creation process, or
the yeah, money, minting in a way.
Yeah, that's another way to look at circuits.
How do you drive adoption here? Like you know, I without naming
names, you know, I kind of asked one of my friends like, hey,
have you checked out circles yet a couple weeks ago and he's
like, you know, can I make up a lot of money off of this?
Not really. So I'm not really, you know, I'm
not really good at bother and so the money-making opportunity for
like early adopters of cryptocurrencies was a large
part of its like rapid adoption. And so how do you do that in
here in circles? Out, that sort of property.
Yeah, I mean, there are two sides to circles.
So the one side is somewhat fairly easy to say.
But I also want free tokens or free money.
So that doesn't require a big big, kind of yeah, convincing
people. But of course, that's not it.
The second step is absolutely required.
That there are people who give offer something for circuits and
Basically, in a way, take on risk with circuits by like, if
you give out stuff and you can accept, then this currency of
course or just whatever you call it.
Of course, you then have the risk.
Well, is this anything worse? Can I can I get something back
in return? And here, the idea is that you
yourself have to some extent. The very, very clear interest to
signal that your personal currency and we were, I guess we
will come into this but not every circle is equal.
But that at least yours is worth something and that because if
that is not the case, you will have issues that people will
trust your money. And that will also mean that you
cannot spend your money. So you need to be, to some
extent credible in the other people would need to think that
you also willing to potentially give something for the money.
Otherwise, they will not trust your money and not accept it.
Okay, so I think maybe to understand this better, we need
to start to dive deep into the technicals of house or both
work. So can you explain to the you
know, you mentioned this personal money and stuff could
you talk us through how this works?
Right. So, exactly.
So circuits is, yeah, we be a calling the whole system circles
but there is no such thing as one Circle coin or kind of token
or but instead everyone individually.
Yeah, kind of issues their own personal personal tokens.
So, as soon as you join the system, you can immediately
start issuing your Your own personal tokens, but let's call
mine margin circuits, and you are constrained in like, how
fast you can issue them. So that is the same for everyone
to probably issuance rate is fixed on a specific schedule,
right? But but, but then, they are,
everyone has their own to, but then, for the user, or we
largely abstract away from that. So, kind of, if you are not Not
super difficult. Don't want to understand it.
Fully circles will look like in many cases that they are.
You don't need to think about those differences and that comes
from the trust networks. So what does it means of people
can trust each other and if they trust each other they yeah.
In a way verify each other or kind of agree with each other
that they are both. Yeah using circles and on a
Clever trusting. Someone means you are willing to
exchange their circles for your circle 121 and real technical
trustees, is directional, so that does need to go both ways
but in the normal case, it would go both ways.
So, if I trust brine, it means again.
I accept his circles in exchange or I'm always willing to
exchange mine and that is also How the system can scale?
So our first of all in general, the idea is that you only accept
circles from people you trust talking later.
This is also how we address the similar Tech problem, but yeah,
you'd only accept circles from people you trust, but it doesn't
mean you can only interact with people or I mean there that
would be a shitty money system if you can only like buy a
coffee from someone where there is already a trust connection.
So what those trust connections allow Are transitive
connections. So yeah, if I trust Brian and we
trust each other and then Brian trust again.
Someone and again someone and then there's someone is running
a coffee shop and I go there and want to buy the coffee.
The idea is, well, I paid them with circles and they would not
accept mine because they don't know me.
They don't trust me, they don't accept my circles.
But again, there is this path so I can or under the hood again,
this is all abstracted from the user.
Can be extracted. I sent my circles to Brian can
exchange them for Brian circuit. Brian forwarding or without his
interaction because he already generally agreed to.
This trust connection is forwarding his tokens and again
is forwarding his token. So as long as there is a trust
connection and disconnection needs to be liquid, that's small
detail, that's important, then I can pay ya whomever and this
whoever is Then receiving circuits from someone, they
directly know or they directly trust and analogy here, you
know, maybe to for people to understand, it's similar to
lightning Network and that's like this like trust Network
where but instead on lightning and every channel as the same
token, which is Bitcoin here, it's every channel is about a
personal token, essentially exactly.
But but yeah, it's a concept is the same Or for people who are
even longer around or Ridge, the original concept of Ripper was
also very, very similar. I'm not sure kind of how much
rip the today has but yeah, until that you're sort of this,
I think the continuation of that original Ripple, that idea.
Also there's a project trust lines in the urban space.
Exactly. I think what's an interesting
another way to think of it in the Ripple or Crush Klein's
context is, inter Ledger Ripple or two about taking Debt in
intellect her. It's basically we keep this
channel open between us where we say, hey, I owe you point one,
Bitcoin, IOU point to bitcoin IOU, .3, Bitcoin.
And then we can settle up at some point in the future here.
It's almost like everyone gets the right like as a human being.
You get the right to issue a certain amount of unbanked debt
per time period for the rest of your life.
Life. Exactly.
So so I mean there are also voices to say circuit is a
Mutual Credit system and it is like it is it would be a
different way to look at it. So if I have 100 circuits or
let's say that's purely my Ubi that was issued to me.
So my as you called it, my right to produce that I could also say
this is actually 0 so everyone is at zero in the beginning but
everyone has a specific Credit limit and let's say it's 100
units so everyone would be at zero and as soon as well but but
I can go up to -100 so I can also or one way to look at it is
I have hundred units at this moment that I can spend.
And well now I spent 400 units now I'm at - hundred and you
might be a plus 100 and it's just in a way a different view
on the same data to say everyone is at 100.
And now I'm at zero. You and you are at 200.
What's? Of course, the difference is how
to what extent is there is the expectation from me.
If I'm at either 0, or minus 102 to pay it back.
And if if I met - hundred that the - already expresses these
expectations that eventually I should go go back to zero with
circles. Then expectation is to a lesser
degree there and that's really also about The the social
contract of Ubi so in general you be I says yeah you can it's
unconditional so Universal so you don't have to do anything
but of course the whole system can only work.
If enough people but do something or give value into the
system, question is just does it help to to kind of have the
traditional Financial system to have the obligation to pay back.
The debt and kind of worst-case. You need to go to jail or stuff
like that. Or is there enough intrinsic
motivation from people too? Well later produced just out of
their intrinsic, motivation value and Deuce do things.
And of course then offers those things to circuits also for
circuits or for money in general.
One question that kind of came up for me, thinking in this,
like, trust context. So if you be, I wonder if the
ideas of Ubi is also that you, you know, like everyone has
access to it, right? And in this case, you have this
requirement that you actually have existing people trusting
you first. So do you think this
discriminate? So is this like a problem for
people who are like more marginalized or is it just that?
Okay, you have to cross this low threshold but, you know, once
it's crossed Sort of people are kind of equal.
Yeah, I mean that's that's that is a good point and that is a
fair criticism. We are sometimes facing and it
really depends on. Yeah, I guess the social
consensus of how this plays out so it did it could play out that
people only trust each other or kind of in a way enters this
agreement where you can see circuits as some form of of
agreement and you could imagine a world where people only do
that. I only trust people wear No.
OK, they are I don't know wealthy and they will very
likely produce something. Yeah, something valuable.
But there is also this element if the social consensus shifts
towards more UPI so than the Ubi narrative prevails or kind of.
Yeah winds and it becomes just the default Behavior.
If you say yeah, they are human and they are in my network and I
trust them or that That's why I trust them, it others do this as
well. Then the tokens the individual
tokens become much more fungible because if if many people or at
least within and was in a kind of was in a specific area or
wizard kind of locally bound but if many people like just have to
gather the default behaviors, they trust everyone.
Who is also part of this social network or part of this place or
group then. Yeah, again, the tokens become
much more fungible because now I suddenly have some, some tokens,
let's say, like just go the example from this whatever poor
person that I never expect, to to provide anything useful.
But since everyone else, in my group is also trusting them.
Those circles are not only backed by this person
individually, but by its Network.
So, so if everyone can for Greece to this scheme in a way,
well, Yeah, that is money and I can spend it within this network
then I don't care too much. What this was specific person
might offer or not offer its really, then the network that
yeah kind of carries people along with in their Network.
Can you talk a little bit about how Sybil accounts are dealt
with or handled in the system? Yeah, exactly.
So that is again. Another another perspective or
to look at circles is that there are actually Plenty or at least
five to ten blockchain, you bi projects that all have that
shared goal. Let's just issue tokens and give
it out per person. And as you're hinting And your
question is hinting to the big problem each of those projects
face is simple attack, or kind of who decides who can, who can
join the network. And how do you prevent someone
from just creating a hundred accounts in some or the other
some of the other project, then try to come up with?
Yeah, you need to kind of upload your photo or do some, some kyc
or whatever, but circles, tried to stay completely
decentralized. So I No, no Central Authority
whatsoever that kind of decides who can join.
But again relies on, on this trust Network.
So again, how is it solved or how it is?
It rests the Sibyl problem? It boils down really to the
social consensus that you only should trust the person once.
So if I kind of somehow, well, potentially go on Twitter but or
just in my network to People, I know the social, the strong sort
of consensus needs to be, I can create circuits account but only
one and as soon as someone would ya would misbehave people should
not trust that person or it's very least, well, kind of only
only one of those accounts what happens if someone does that.
So, or let's say I'm trying to cheat, so you guys are trusting
me was with It was my real account and that's all fine but
then now I cheat an addition so I create a hundred hundred
circles account and I trust all of them and kind of those
hundred, they trust all each other and so on the important
thing now to understand is as long as no real person is
trusting those those hundred fake accounts.
Those hundred fake accounts can spend a small amount UND with in
the real Network let's say was with Sonny because they are
connected to me and I'm connected to Sunny so this fake
person can take their fake tokens, send them to me and I
sent the real tokens, my real tokens to you and you are happy
accepting them but that only works until I run out of real
Martin tokens because then the fact opens.
Yeah. I mean, there is no so no liquid
Trust. Anymore.
So, all I got was that I now have the fake token from from my
own fake accounts and they are not worth anything.
So I didn't got any advantage by doing that and again the system
boils down to as long as people don't trust fake accounts.
They are not affected by fake accounts, right?
So basically you have almost if you think of it in these terms
in this network topology, right? Let's say you are a real
account. Count and then you're connected
with other real accounts and you're connected with like some
fake accounts that then, you know, maybe there's a big swarm
of lots of fake accounts, the thing, when they kind of they
can only go through you, exactly.
And sort of like steal money through this, you know, this one
channel there is and that has this throughput limit right
which is kind of the circles you have.
So yeah. That makes a lot of sense,
right? And I think that's it's a very
elegant. Yeah.
Say elegant. How do I detect that there?
Are like someone out of several accounts.
So, let's say I have like, you know, multiple groups of friends
that are somewhat, you know, isolated I go with my, you know,
football friends and, you know, I make an account with them, get
them all to trust me. And then I go with my leg crypto
friends and have them make an account.
And I'll trust me. How would these two groups even
be able to realize that their? I have a duplicate account?
Yeah. I mean I think I wouldn't, I
wouldn't make the claim that that is impossible.
Specifically if you indeed would have kind of two completely
distinct or like a completely non overlapping networks, but I
would claim a most people kind of did the networks are somewhat
overlapping. They're not kind of clearly
separated. That's point.
A and point B most people don't screw or don't want to screw the
kind. There people there, they have a
personal and direct relationship or the kind of kind of their
friends. So, yeah, I mean, s does assume
some form of honest, Behavior within friends.
But that being said that the damage that like, if one out of
100 people are one out of a thousand people does that anyhow
and kind of might even succeed with that, the damage to the
whole system is, I mean that would be a Problem.
It's basically like a like maybe half a percent of all money is
counterfeit. What would be helpful though to
do something? Like if let's say my address on
the Chain was like the hash of my yeah legal name plus my
birthday or something so that way when you know Brian comes
along and says like hey here's this new.
I just made a new account I can take his name and his birthday
hash them and see if hey why is there already An account here,
that is something we left open to a large degree because we
think those are social norms that will evolve and we don't
exactly predict how they evolved.
So currently we see really different behaviors of one.
Is obviously like your Twitter account is like if you tweeted
publicly, then it's well then it's already harder for you to
if you use your normal normal like face and normal name on
Twitter than it's already pretty hard to say to kind of do.
Neither that or to, then create a second account, that's one
way. But in other way is again there
are those much more local in much more non blockchain or very
specifically in Berlin? We have we have groups where
people just meet in person and it's much more personal and and
yeah, there is this community where people know each other,
and again, I think the likelihood that someone tries to
fraud that door. Brought really the people, they
are directly interacting with seems reasonably low.
Regarding this throughput notion I mentioned before.
So is it the case that basically you know, this throughput limit,
that each user has then also grows proportionally because
they get, you know, every day they get more circles and do you
think that's a significant factor or yeah?
I mean, the throughput limit, I mean, the again, lip different
ways to look at it. You couldn't say the total
amount of circles you get or is sunny mentioned earlier, the
total amount That you're allowed to create.
Yeah, of course. The idea is that that
continuously increases over time, one thing to note is trust
connections, or if we again, looking at this attack scenario,
well, you can cancel dressed connect trust connections so,
well, if you feel like you are kind of drained, the circles are
just always drained immediately as As the throughput or kind of
as a new secretary issued, for some reason, you always end up
with those circles and you can never spend them anywhere.
Then it might happen that you kind of talk to the person.
Well, why can't I spend them anymore?
Anywhere is why is no one else trusting you?
Why are you not offering anything?
You know, an earlier version of the paper I remember there was
like this concept of validators and it really different than
like not. It's not like the Things like
proof of stake validated, it's a very, but then I noticed it was
actually removed in the latest version of the paper.
So could you tell us a little about what that was and why that
was removed? Yeah, so so those are things.
So there were two concept of validators in groups.
Those were just two things that are possible to build on top and
we just decided, okay. Let's let's have the pure the
purest kind of basic version and and If needed or if wanted, we
can build those things on top and those are ideas to make it
more practical for businesses to get some in some form except
circuits. So if we look at the business,
it's not obvious like even if they want to accept circles and
let's put for, for a moment aside, why would they want?
And so on? But if they want to accept
circles, then the question is what circles do they actually
accept? They could say, yeah, only the
circuits of the business owner. Well, I mean, that, that would
be problematic because there are only so many circuits.
So kind of the total, the total amount of seconds, they could
even potentially receive is limited.
So, somehow they need to decide what circles they they accept.
So maybe even in other words, whom step they are willing to to
accept. And and here, yeah, there is the
the concept or the can be a concept of.
Of of validators or you could even call it like lists or
something like that. So somehow there is a process to
to get onto a specific list and the list or one list could be
maintained by. Well you need to show your real
address. You need to live in a specific
country or in a specific area and you need to to show your ID
or whatever and if you do that, you are on this list and then
kind of a business could subscribe to such a Start
validator and say, well everyone, everyone who's part of
this list, all of those circuits, I accept.
And again, The Next Step, that wouldn't mean that only people
who are on those on this list, can can buy, or can spend their
circles. But at least you need to be
connected. You need again to have this
liquid connection to someone who's who is on this list.
So, yeah, I do actually imagine that.
Yeah, that those those concept will or that, that will happen.
Another way to think these lists would be where they kind of be
like these giant curved Finance style pools.
Like you know here's a list of all these people who are
approved and you know it's this and you can just Swap and any of
them for any of them that can kind of like massively increase
the ability to pay for anyone that's on that list, right?
Who said that cool. I mean, the way the trust
network is already this kind of what gives you already the
ability to exchange across a pool or a graph.
So circles should or can in a densely connected in a densely
connected Network. All circuits are basically equal
because you can exchange or you find a path from any circles to
every other circuits. But but if there are kind of
models so slow Groups that are not in the graph.
Is more Loosely connected. Yeah.
Then then some connections might try out of try out of liquidity
but 24 from from the business perspective.
It's not. Yeah really about it's not
really about being able to exchange those but it's just a
question which are they willing to hold?
So which what in a way again depth or what what risk or to
some extent you can say holding money is a risk.
The risk of will you ever get something Thing in return for
it. I mean, this is also it's
amazing how much trust we have today in our dollars or Euros.
So we don't even think about that, that way that if we are
selling something, we are already taking the risk because
we are already giving away the good and we just received this
as paper or maybe not even paper in the hope that that we will
eventually get something for it. Of course we have so much trust
in money. That we don't perceive it as a
risk to sell something and to receive money, but, yeah, in
principle it is that risk to accept money.
Now, you know, kind of speaking of a M&M's, like so far, we've
been kind of assuming that anyone who's like on a trust
path is willing to do a swap like 121.
Like, you know, I'll take margin token and send Brian some Sunny
token 121. Like so far, there's been this
assumption that trust is like a very binary.
Anything in the real world. I feel it's not always as
binary. Like you know if there's one
token that I'm accepting you know, maybe that's okay.
But then if I'm expected to extend 10,000 dollars that you
know, there's a higher default risk and stuff and so does it
make sense to like have some sort of these people who are
along the payment path, they take fees and like using some
sort of like bonding curves or amm kind of stuff too like
account for this. Default risk as the amount to go
up. Yeah.
So that can make sense you can one way to look at.
It is also to say if they are like three or four different
passes, you should choose the shortest shortest and currently
there is not really a I mean, currently it wouldn't matter.
Even a long pass doesn't really cost you anything.
So there are arguments clearly for such a system but there is
at least at one point where I would argue against or at least
that's not my idea of circuits is one way to interpret circles
could be. Yeah, it's releases personal,
personal tokens and that's it's almost like equity in that
person. So you say, kind of well, how
much will this person probably kind of produce or do in the
future and kind of depending on how educated or whatever kind of
that could be one way to look. Circles, but it's definitely not
the way I look at S 0 I would like to see Circle.
So I would definitely like to see more of this perspective of
UPI. And in that sense a trust is
fairly binary because you can fairly binary say is that a real
person or not? There's not too much room in
between. Here's a little bit of a weird
question which is so far. We've talked about, you know,
we've determined that this system is good in both are over
time because that's people are born.
You know. They can join the system.
What happens when people die if I died tomorrow?
Sunny tokens are already all throughout the network and more
Sunny tokens are keeping minted because my account is still
existing on chain. So how do we deal with this?
Yeah, yeah I know, I'm a good person so there can be
different. So social consensus around how
to deal with that. But the idea I would strongly
advocate for is, first of all, of course, your minting should
stop. And we have already implemented
that to some extent in circles because they are simply two
statements, which or kind of this this concept that if you
don't poke your account, at least every three months, then
it will stop or then you will not be able to any yeah, you
would basically need to create a new account.
After that. So that problem is to some
extent solved. That means like I have this
circle account. You know, I'm accumulating my
circle, I have this like trust Network.
Then I'm going six months on, I don't know, backpacking around
the world and then my account is, is gone right now.
Yes. So right now it means that if
you, if you for three months don't do don't do anything.
Yeah, again, your account is not gone but it can't issue.
Issue any anymore circuit. So what you would need to do is
you would need to create a new account and basically tell all
your friends, sorry, you can see here's my own to all the count,
it's frozen. So, you can now securely trust a
new account and no, I you can still trust the old account and
you should because those brine circles should still be valid
but they would then also need to trust the new account if they
want to. Give you while you can.
Yeah, except you're going forward.
Okay, so so I would still have two coins, the old coins.
I would like that. Would need to create a new
account, to, like start printing again, or maintain.
Yeah. I mean, like, like technically
speaking in the count is well, smart contract wallet and it's
just enough to say factually, but so they're dead.
You still have access to access to and all the all the tokens
that are in there. You still have access to.
But again, the the yeah, The minting contract will simply not
allow any meeting in the future more anymore, why not just let
people kind of like reactivate your account to some extent
addresses Sonny's question about?
Like, what, what is if people die, but to some extent, it also
deals with the problem. What if I lost my account?
So if I if I just lost my key, I mean kind of any form of
reactivation is of course problematic because I mean who
Who is allowed to do that and so on.
So if you lost the key in, there is no Central Authority, well
General problem, but in circles is simple, answer would be.
Well, you should create a new account, and now, but you now,
you need to go to to the people that previously trusted you and
say please. Now trust my new account.
And to do that, it's kind of necessary or it almost a
necessary condition that they can be assured that your
Previous account, cannot be there look-alike suddenly
suddenly mint tokens again and now you get it twice.
So for you to kind of Clearly say, see it safe.
This old one is deactivated, please do new one, it's yeah.
So, one of the things about the economics of circles is that
the, you know, we have this sort of, I forgot what the exact rate
was, but I'm getting like, you know, maybe 200 circles a month
or something as this more circles being printed, this is
sort of causing this inflation. And that means like the real
value of the Ubi over time is actually decreasing, because if
there's only 200 circles being printed per month, how do we
make sure that you bi keeps up? You Pace with like inflation.
Yeah, so exactly. So there is.
So if the if the issuance rate would be fixed and currently it
starts at eight circles day. So yeah, 240 roughly a month,
believe that would be fixed. Then indeed, as you said, kind
of the total amount of money in circulation giving a constant
population. What?
Yeah, continuously. Increase over time.
But you could then argue the relative amount that's kind of
newly minted. Or given out as you bi would
relative to the total amount actually converge over a long
time towards zero. So, in a way, you could argue
the flexion would go towards Europe.
That could potentially mean that the FBI also the value of the
Ubi goes towards zero at least over a long, long time scale.
And it would also raise. Again, this is fairness point,
so like future Generations would say, well, why would I kind of
accept all Those old circles compared to me getting getting
getting very little. So like taken to the extreme,
let's say 200 years. Why should I kind of be it
relevant? That the two hundred years ago.
Someone lived, and issued circles, and why should I kind
of Honor that in a way? So circles addresses this?
And, and there's a nice concept behind it from another project
called donator relative thing. You have money second suppresses
that by simply increasing the the Ubi by 7% by 7% a year so in
year one and eight units per day and year to its eight units plus
seven percent and so on and so on.
So that means that the rate of new Ubi will actually stabilized
compared to the existing total. Yeah, money Moss.
Given a given a fixed population at by the way, more or less
exactly those those seven percent that number is actually
not too far away from from money, we are very used to and
that is the US dollar. So if you simply look at at the
monetary Mass M1 and you look at the last 50 years, I think the
the the increase of monetary Mouse.
We're total dollars in circulation.
Increased roughly by that 7%. I think it's slightly less 66
percent per year. Cool.
Well, question that kind of relates to this topic of, you
know, how much is this money worth and maybe how does it
relate to like, you know, different people in any
different times in context. So a lot of these graphs right?
Are kind of going to be local. I mean it It seems like that
from the way you envision it. It could turn out that way at
the same time, there's this idea that, you know, like one Circle.
They all have the same value. So how do you see that like
playing out? If you're going to have, you
know, like some circles, you know, Network that, you know,
trusting each other in, in some may be poor place in Kenya
versus, you know, in Berlin, some communities, you know, will
those sir? Circles.
How do you think they will have different values in their local
context? Yeah, so that really depends on
how strongly they are two graphs or two two graphs are connected.
If there are 100 people in one, let's say in Berlin and everyone
is connected with everyone there, it clear that all those
circuits are basically fungible and and will have same value.
Now in another place again another People are all connected
with each other. It within this context within
the space, although circuits are will have the same value.
Now, let's assume just one or just out of out of those two
groups, there's 11 trust connection.
So, kind of out of this one group and out of group to those
two people trust each other. So now for a very, very limited
capacity, there is the capacity to flow for Value to flow
one-to-one. But then of course, It could
happen that this flow kind of dries out and that would be
simply if any one out of this group makes a purchase or kind
of in the other group. Then.
Yeah, money flows out of this group to the other group.
But then this connection is yeah, dried out or any more
money cannot flow and with which effectively means that the two
groups are basically disconnected at this point.
So and if they are disconnected, of course.
And then value or then, of course, they would have
effectively different values. If the groups are like more and
more than somehow somehow connected and more and more
people connect with each other. Again, the value would also then
equal one question. I'm curious about, you know,
you've worked a lot on dolls and you know, the of the, these
ideas of dolls. So, you know, enable, Like Mass
collaboration, if like many, many people.
Now, of course, this in a way, is about creating this web
community of people always, you know, cryptokeys.
So do you see circles turning into like some kind of doll and
like how what potential outcomes there?
I would not necessarily say circuits itself, would turn into
a doubt, but clearly, we are already working on the are
basically a circuit style. Basically, a dial that has the
goal to, to bring bring circuits forward, but I would be very,
very cautious or simply. That's the direction.
I would not want to give that Dow in some form power over
circles. So it's a core element of
circuits that it is, that there is no no governance.
So you see that's like it's a protocol that's like defined and
that's not going to change. Well, I mean I mean, there is a
lot of going to change in at the edges.
So basically, in the kind of all the parts that is part of the
social consensus of, should I form a trust connection or not?
That is largely undefined. And that is, that is part in a
way where, where, governance happens, the very core rules are
really minimal. Probably the only Parameter that
is that is something that is kind of worse.
Discussing is the, they could be a thing where people might have
different opinions about this. This is 7%.
Other than that, for example, whether the issuance rate is
eight or are 100, that doesn't really matter because you can,
if you say the issues raised should be one will just create
an interface and call it one or a base.
Really just create an alternative interface where you
where you say kind of this is one unit you get per day.
It's just a different view ones on the same graph.
Yeah, I think that's really cool.
When will comment it is indeed a nice side effect of circles.
Also, to towards your Dow question, it is Annie a nice
side effect of circuits that you suddenly create.
So this Public public peer-to-peer graph where
everyone has a price. Key that alone is is something
useful? Yeah.
That's powerful. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. So, there are plenty of
applications that can benefit or that that could kind of use this
trust graph. Yeah, I kind of as a basis to
get started so you could imagine a rating system so anyone can
kind of add a rating to the system, but of course then you
have the Civil attack problem and I think that is a real
problem. Today in today's world was
comments with ratings, whatever they get spammed by Bots, but if
you if you filter it through this trust graph and say
basically yeah just just I follow the edges from from.
I have this local view or this relative view from from my own
perspective and I kind of weight ratings, comments, whatever it
is based on this graph. Yeah, that that is a powerful
powerful tool in itself. Yeah, this is Really cool
because there are actually going to ask just about that next and
how I actually first Came Upon circles.
Two years ago was exactly that, I wrote a rating system for open
bizarre, that used like a web of trust reputation system and on
ethereum. And then one of the problems
was, how do we get, how do we incentivize people to actually
like make the trust connections? I couldn't see any reason why
people would be incentivized to do that in the first place.
But what scoop then I About circles and I'm like, oh wait,
this is so cool because this has this is basically
incentivisation for building up a social graph and then I can my
system can like bootstrap off of that social graph and so
backdrop, that kind of got me super excited and like you know
these kind of trust graphs can be used for like pgp.
Like all sorts of cool things that like I'm a big fan of like
reputation systems and web of trust that's like probably one
of the most secure civil resistance It's probably even
more so than like proof of stake.
So yeah, I'm pretty excited about this kind of stuff.
So, the next question though is like taking it to the real world
side is how do we like Drive demand for this?
And when we say this is a Ubi, this is meant to be this like
sort of parallel economy. We're not going to see like
hyper or Circle ization or anything.
If I'm a merchant how do I even know how to start accepting
circles on how to price my things and sir?
Goals. The best route will be, and that
is what we are. Currently preparing, is have
local groups, it does, for sure, make make make most sense in a
local context to have a group of people in the same physical
place that together want to start circuits.
And by the way, we already have that.
We are starting this list and we I think we have 80 or 90 people
are places that said, yeah, I want to start circles in
Venezuela. I want to Circuits in Buenos
Aires, in Shenzhen and whatever, really, really all all over the
world. So it's way to go to kind of
organize locally or slogan is also kind of build your local
economy. One really nice story I already
have or we already have was someone who said, yeah, I'm
small landlord in Cadiz in Spain and I have here, a few shops in
my building and because of Corona, they are struggling to
pay the the rent. So what I did is I said, okay,
you can pay part of of the rent in circles under the condition
that you then in your shop except circuits and of course
those are kind of the perfect. Yeah what kind of stories are
ways? How we how we could imagine
circles getting bootstrapped. And we're trying to develop this
Playbook of how to locally get community going that again.
In a way, is giving each other this basic income because that's
what, what circuits is. So the basic income will, of
course not come from, kind of out of nowhere.
It will come from the people that are using using circuits
and they would in a way if someone is receiving the basic
income. Of course, they are receiving it
from their network, from their Community.
What is your take away from like the, you know, it's about what
three or four weeks in now about the initial show?
Social graph bootstrapping, is it a healthy like natural graph?
Or is it like barking and his friends right now?
Well, it's definitely well beyond my friends.
I think it's currently 40,000 40,000 accounts.
It there were two parallel. Fairly disconnected graph.
So we actually started it at a local event here.
In Berlin, we had, we had a meeting or a Meetup or in.
There was already a process of months before that, we like
talked to very different entities here and there was
There was an event was 50/50 people.
And that was really kind of the at the moment circles Network.
The contract was deployed technique.
Technically speaking, the circuits launch and those are
people that are really not on crypto Twitter and kind of not
really at all into crypto. And then at the same time or if
you like maybe 12 hours later, of course, it went somewhat
viral on Twitter and their. Yeah, I mean they're the graph
was formed. In a quite different way.
So they're the graph formed still, I think, largely Still
Still across people that know each other, but of course,
knowing each other. From from Twitter is, I mean the
date was a much more International graph or kind of a
graph where people that were physically in the same place.
So, yeah, that will be interesting how that will play
out and kind of how meaningful those connections.
So I guess Twitter. You can be first the the things
that can be sold. Yeah.
Traded or exchanged digitally. I mean, there is, of course
things and one experiment I will do soon as selling an N of t or
like digital art or whatever for S.
So, of course, there are things. You can also, there's also route
for circuits to go, but we are definitely very much also into
the Very local, very concrete, very down-to-earth like stuff
like Urban gardening or farming, or yeah, that world.
One of the most common things that have been said about like,
you know, circles after the launch was the ux issues right
now currently like you have to like to like write down their
seed phrase and stuff and it feels like using crypto from
like 2016. Again, what was the reason for
not like integrating with like, you know, Common web three.
Act and think like that. Yeah, I mean, I think I think it
really depends from what perspective you are looking.
So for someone who is already in crypto, it was weird that we
would not have whatever metal mask support and so on.
But the reasons not to do that was exactly because we were
targeting primarily the non trip to users.
So what we were what we would, our goal was that in a user that
hasn't heard about crypto and has a phone can pay their coffee
with circles with with phone. So it was absolutely not an
option to kind of require them to have met a mask.
Then to send some X Dy where I mean actually like fund your
account so that you that you do not pay your gas costs and so
on. So on this node circles is
running on X Dy. It's basically an etherium clone
or it's basically the same as Theorem.
But with a simpler proof of authority consensus algorithm,
who's paying the fees right now? Yeah, so the fees are actually
paid. We have a relay relay Network so
transactions are relayed and yeah, kind of a circle circles.
Wallet is paying those gas fees in X time, but are actually
refunded in circles. So, the user is paying the, some
circuit, some tiny amount of circuits to the relay service
and the relay service is paying the fees next day.
Luckily fees on next day are basically close to zero.
So it's not not really a concern.
But again, talking about the ux perspective.
Yeah. I mean, you can I mean I of
course, if we got the the messages from from the crypto
world that they would prefer a kind of the metal mask proud,
but again, I would argue ux in a way Is made made made quite some
steps. So, because we are again,
abstracting all this signing of transactions.
We are basically using this burner burner style wallets of
your private key is in your browser.
So you can just press regular buttons in the the app basically
to send transactions without any.
Yeah. Pop-ups metal mask pop-ups or
stuff like that. One last question for my side
is, how does this work on like layer to system?
So, Circle system is like existing on X Dy.
You know, it's funny. Usually we think of aetherium as
the layer 1 and then like, actually I would be like a layer
2, but let's say I wanted to move some of the circles onto a
theory on. How do I make a payment?
If all the like social graph Pathways and everything were
still stuck on the X Dy chain. So how do I do that or like, how
would I do this? Mike payment channel that have
you thought much about layer two systems?
Yeah, so in general I would say circulars can scale quite well
because you don't need the global State, you only care
about your local state. So there are indeed scalability
Solutions like, lightning or yeah.
Equivalent would be Raiden that would somewhat Naturally Fit fit
for circuits. The question of whether you can
move your circles to other blockchains.
Well, I think that is not fundamentally.
From any other token. So yeah, you can like wrap it or
lock it on the one block chain and then issued on the other
Block Chain, of course potentially, it does make it
more complicated. That you have so many different,
different circuits and indeed. The circuit are, of course, much
more helpful. If you, if you have, if you can
exchange them, if you can do them along the cross connection.
But it's, of course, not Unthinkable that that you have
some. I mean, even even frog from a
user perspective, that they have some tooling to just take all
their trust connections and kind of copy them to another system
and say yeah, I don't care if I exchange the circle to 1 to 1
here and this system or on that other system.
Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming
on Martin. Maybe your final thing.
If people want to get involved, when I like help out a lot of
this vision. And, you know, when I went to
bring it to reality, what are the best ways to get involved?
Oh yeah, but that is super important because also for
people to know, circles is to this point has very small core
team, so it's a project that kind of was described all Really
think the first the oldest description is seven years old.
But so there is, I guess, a wider community of people who
somehow followed it and then somehow are like, I guess like
it, but the core team was actually, is actually very, very
small or people who are working full-time.
So it's just five people and doesn't have any funding.
And also doesn't have the interest to kind of go Venture
funded route. So yeah, Chuckles will very much
depend on more people getting Both the options are numerous so
cards. Everyone who is a developer is
very welcome. We are or there is already the
process starting to started to create alternative.
Wallets. Probably also wallets that are
more crypto kind of more towards the crypto users.
So of course, it's principle, of course, possible to use circles
with Smita mask, or with other wallets.
Yeah, that's number one. Number two, is Again, we are.
There's this process of finding local communities and ideally
there will be local meetup groups that yeah, explore the
option to start a local circles economy, so that that will be
number two. Number three, is we, for sure,
our for will start launching circles.
Dow just as another yeah. Entity to follow and support and
kind of Yeah, basically take place in shaping shaping
development around in circles, and then of course, there is,
there's plenty of things, kind of social norms that need to be
developed or kind of, basically just discussion around.
What is The Right Use? And and number a number five?
Just just be experimental, so they are, there are people that
said, okay, let's start round of Poker.
ER, with circles, I remember in the old in the old kind of
Bitcoin days, you had those people who did this experiment,
I want to live one week, only on bitcoin the eventually.
It was then a month and eventually it was the whole year
traveling around the world. Kind of those things happened.
And, of course, then this element of is there anything I
can offer for circles. So, what we already saw is just
telegram groups where people similar to Craigslist or Or Ebay
would sell their used, probably some use stuff.
What I could very well, imagine is an Airbnb alternative that
you say. Yeah, I rent out my apartment
over the weekend for circles. And by the way, here, also, this
kind of idea of the trust line might be interesting because at
least, there is the connection that if a person comes, you can
kind of through the circle payment.
See how How you are, it can to some extent established in some
form of initial trust. If you have those, okay, I know
them over them over them, but but yeah.
So basically just find creative ways to to use circles.
Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming
on Martin and I'm excited to see how to projects going to
develop. I've also like signed up today
and I actually just now, finally, the, I think some of
these trust authentication sweet like, stock for a while but
finally, that SRI now, so I'm excited to like, try it out and
play around with it. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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