1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,800 It's not just bigger than Ethereum, it's not just bigger 2 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:03,920 than Solana, it's bigger than all of them combined. 3 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,240 And if D Phi could ever be a lock there, this would be the 4 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,920 biggest opportunity ever to exist in crypto. 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,200 There's a really big proposal called OP Cat that's gotten a 6 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,360 lot of momentum, the Bitcoin community in the block size 7 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,520 wars. What we all agreed on was that 8 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,720 Bitcoin was going to scale in layers. 9 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,280 If that happens, we need to allow for trustless bridging in 10 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,600 a much more rigorous architecture of these L twos 11 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,840 connected to Bitcoins L1 and right now we don't have that. 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,880 You basically have to convince everyone to change their node 13 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,560 software to run your version of Bitcoin. 14 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,400 And so, you know, different proposals. 15 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Hard forks are extremely difficult and Bitcoin doesn't 16 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,640 upgrade through hard forks and upgrades through soft forks. 17 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,520 This cycle, that's what we'll see, which 10% is still enormous 18 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,360 and by the next cycle then we eclipse Ethereum TBL in terms of 19 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,840 as a percentage of our market cap. 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,520 If you're looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no 21 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,400 further than Course one. 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Thanks to the advanced MEV 27 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,840 research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. 28 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,320 You can stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white 29 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:38,080 label node, restake your assets on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use 30 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,360 the SDK for multi chain staking in your app. 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,000 Learn more at Chorus .1 and start staking today. 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,880 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 33 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,360 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,080 Gnosis leads innovation with Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri 35 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,360 reshaping open banking and money. 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,800 With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, they're building a more 37 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,280 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,120 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Gnosis 39 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,759 Chain offers the same development environment as 40 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,280 Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,560 It's supported by over 200,000 ballot errors, making Gnosis 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,480 Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,760 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 44 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,160 governance, where every voice matters. 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,800 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 46 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Deploy on the EVM compatible Gnosis Chain or secure the 47 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,800 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 48 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,920 Start your decentralization journey today at gnosis dot IO. 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,640 Welcome to Epsom of the show, which talks about the 50 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:49,280 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 51 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,000 and the blocs and revolution. I'm today with Dan Held, who's 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,160 the general partner at Asymmetric, which is a new 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,360 Bitcoin focus fund, and he's been in the space for a very 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,800 long time. I've also known Dan for a very 55 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,640 long time and I'm sure many of you will know him because I 56 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:10,920 think he's certainly one of the biggest, maybe the biggest sort 57 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:16,480 of, you know, influencer, communicator, educator around 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Bitcoin. So really excited to have Dan 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:20,840 on. Cool. 60 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Well, thanks so much for coming on Dan. 61 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,360 It's actually, this is like way overdue. 62 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,400 I think we I think we've talked a bunch of times about having 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,760 your own epicenter. So yeah, I'm glad it finally 64 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,640 happens and that you're coming on. 65 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:35,280 I. Appreciate the invite. 66 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,160 Let's start at the beginning. How did you get into crypto? 67 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Yeah, so back in 2011, my buddy paid. 68 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,080 I was in Dallas, TX and my my friend was an engineer and he 69 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,040 paid me back for a beer and a cassetius coin, you know, those 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,200 physical gold coins. And of course, the first thing I 71 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,080 do is I figure out how to try to sell it. 72 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,760 You know, everyone back then, I think you know, so it was so 73 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,120 new. There was almost no content out 74 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,440 there to describe how Bitcoin worked or how it functioned. 75 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,000 It was basically just a bunch of very developer focused folks. 76 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,399 So he paid me back for a beer through that started to look 77 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:23,560 into it a little bit and saw that Silk Road was AI think good 78 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,000 testament to the resiliency of Bitcoin as a currency where I'm 79 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,880 like, I don't know how this thing works, but if the 80 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,000 government can't shut down this payment method, that's something 81 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,880 powerful. That's something, you know, that 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,520 has, I was for me, I, I was a libertarian. 83 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,840 So this sort of message resonated with me. 84 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,680 And so in seeing the resiliency of Silk Road that encouraged me 85 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,000 further to explore. I found out about the 21 million 86 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,600 hard cap. And for me, that was the, I 87 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,120 think kind of the Holy Grail moment of this is a breakthrough 88 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,480 of monetary policy. For me, that's the most 89 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,480 important thing here. It's the credibility of the 90 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,640 monetary policy of being the best sound money in the world of 91 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,480 being a goal 2 point O. And that really is what kind of 92 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,520 kind of woke me up to the opportunity. 93 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,440 And so 2012 and 2013 is when I started to really accumulate. 94 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,680 And then in 2013, I built my first product in the crypto 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,680 space. So are you interested in kind of 96 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,840 central bank money, gold, things like that before Bitcoin or was 97 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:30,120 it sort of Bitcoin that got into got into this? 98 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,560 Yeah, good question. So I was studying finance during 99 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,000 the 2008 financial crisis. That moment definitely 100 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,720 radicalized me as I realized the central banks were wrong, the 101 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,440 government was wrong, and all the banks were, you know, every 102 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,440 bank noticed at central banks, but all the banks were wrong. 103 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,920 So for me, that was kind of like a radicalization moment, as I 104 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,680 put it. And I was looking for 105 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,400 alternatives and that's where like gold was an alternative. 106 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,120 And hearing about Bitcoin a little bit later, that's what 107 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,320 really resonated for me as like this is the this is the solution 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,320 to our problem of trust with our money. 109 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,040 And then you said you started the company. 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,880 What was the company you started? 111 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,640 Actually I I remember I remember being a user of of your app so. 112 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,320 You're definitely OG if you remember 0 block, which is the 113 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,040 the company I built. So there's an app that was a 114 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,840 black and white color scheme, really slick. 115 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,880 It was real time market data, news feeds and charts, which no 116 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,640 mobile app tracking bitcoins price had that at the at the 117 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,200 time doesn't sound that revolutionary because we've had 118 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,880 a lot more builders come in and build great mobile products. 119 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,280 But at that time it was is quite rare. 120 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,840 We ranked number one for the keyword Bitcoin in the App 121 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:48,760 Store, which I figured out how to hack the App Store ranking 122 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,400 algorithm to get us there. Granted, it doesn't matter if 123 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,640 you ranked number one if you're not the most relevant and good 124 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,720 product for people to download. But that was our kind of growth 125 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,560 hacking strategy. And that launched my career in 126 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,720 marketing in tech because through figuring that out, that 127 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,880 was my specialization was SEO and conversion rate 128 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,800 optimization. So in finding users for the 129 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,200 first app I built, I learned that I'm a good marketer. 130 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,080 I'm a good user acquisition. That is very interesting because 131 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:19,280 yeah, I think today, right, I guess you're especially known, I 132 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,840 think as I mean among other things, but also as a marketer 133 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,720 right now as a really brilliant marketer in Big on End. 134 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,120 And you also worked on that right later at Kraken and stuff. 135 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,600 But that was really you sort of developed the skills just in 136 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,920 marketing your own product and. Yeah, we, we tried a lot of 137 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,080 different things. So 1, you know, I, I went to the 138 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,400 San Jose Bitcoin conference in 2013 and I went around and, and 139 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,240 met as many people as I could. And I said, what, what app do 140 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,040 you use to check the price of Bitcoin on your phone? 141 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,840 And they'd show me. And I'm like, well, I built this 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:52,600 one. It's free. 143 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,000 It's better. So that doesn't scale though. 144 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,320 I think I got like 100 users through that method. 145 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,600 I tried all sorts of other methods as well. 146 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,880 And what we landed, you know, we got press. 147 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,120 I was in Wired, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Fortune. 148 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,480 That didn't move the needle either. 149 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,240 We didn't have time to do SEO and and we didn't have really 150 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,320 any resources at all as me and my Co founder. 151 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,720 So App Store search was a really lucrative channel and that's 152 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,240 where a lot of people found apps that they wanted to go download. 153 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,680 So, and being obsessed with that Channel, with being obsessed 154 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,440 with how the App Store worked, I figured out flaws in the, in the 155 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,280 algorithm where I was able to game that and get our app ranked 156 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,880 very highly for the ranked number one for the keyword 157 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,840 Bitcoin, which it wasn't rocket science, but you had to go 158 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,120 experiment and you had to try your luck and you had to be 159 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,160 really obsessed over it to go find that, that, you know, sort 160 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:50,120 of hacker mentality, I think is really fun for me to find little 161 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,240 things that are, are, are ways I can have an advantage versus 162 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,520 versus other channels. I, I also applied that with my 163 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,000 own personal brand as well. My, you know, I, I, I had 164 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,600 written a series of, of long form pieces of content and if 165 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,240 you write it and no one reads it does, it doesn't really matter. 166 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:09,920 And I had to go get that content out there. 167 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,000 This is in 2019. This is the development of my 168 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,240 personal brand. In trying to find out how to 169 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,600 distribute my content or get in front of more eyeballs, I had to 170 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,280 figure out how to build a social media presence. 171 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,200 It wasn't entirely by chance that I'd built on my audience. 172 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,480 There are formulaic and calculate calculated ways to 173 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,920 build an audience where I could definitely do it again in like 174 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,160 another category. But it's it's it's a marketing 175 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,840 skill in in conjunction with the message you want to deliver. 176 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,360 But how to leverage your content on social media is a whole 177 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,960 different skill. But anyways, yeah. 178 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,120 I'm actually maybe just briefly, yeah, I mean, we're not going to 179 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,480 go into like a lot of details there, but I'm curious, what are 180 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,520 the for people who are interested in this, right And 181 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,280 they want to kind of amplify their own their own reach, what 182 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,160 are some of the best simplest tapes or lessons? 183 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,960 I'll tell you the secret, but no one who listened to who listens 184 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:17,680 to this is going to do it. You have to post every single 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,880 day and never, ever miss your dog dies. 186 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,920 You got to post. Have a bad day, You got a 187 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:28,040 hangover, you got to post. That is the number one factor of 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,240 success. And it sounds easy, right? 189 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,840 You're like, tweet a day. I can do that. 190 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,800 Try doing it for seven years. It's, it's not that easy. 191 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,720 And the reason why that's important is that the engagement 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,760 algorithm, what it does is, you know, 99% of people are 193 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,880 consumers of content, 1% of folks produce content. 194 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,720 So the algorithm for the consumers of content, when they 195 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,400 session in the app, say it's Twitter, the, the algorithm has 196 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,600 to go fetch content that they think this person will like to 197 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,800 read or, or digest. And if they like it, they'll 198 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,280 stick around and keep doom scrolling. 199 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:04,840 That's what we all do on social, right? 200 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,440 So how does it pick which content to show you first? 201 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,760 Well, the only way to pick content to show you first is 202 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,880 content that from content creators that you've previously 203 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,480 engaged with. So if you've liked a Dan 204 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,640 Helltweet the last 15 days in a row, if the algorithm's like, 205 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,080 let's give him a Dan Helltweet, he's probably like that. 206 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,920 And so that's how that sticky habit gets built with you and 207 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,920 your audience. And if you're not there, if your 208 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,440 content isn't there that day, it has to go find someone else. 209 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,760 And that's where you lose that engagement loop. 210 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,040 Posting in the morning, your audience is awake. 211 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,200 There's so many times where I see people tweet out at like 212 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,240 10:00 PM, you know, like US time. 213 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,200 And I'm like, cool. Well, maybe like a fraction of 214 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,720 your audience is awake. So the chance of this going and, 215 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,440 and gaining traction and going viral's like almost zero. 216 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,480 Now, of course, if it's timely or topical, sometimes you have 217 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,280 to. But posting in the morning gives 218 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,600 it the greatest shot to get the most engagement possible. 219 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,560 And then, you know, I think a lot of this isn't rocket 220 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,840 science. It's create content that people 221 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,640 want to consume. I think a lot of people get 222 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,840 really stuck on like producing incredibly high quality content 223 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,360 or content they think is good. And all that really matters is 224 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,480 what your audience wants. What content does your audience 225 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,080 want? And if you want to do it to such 226 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,160 a degree that it dilutes your message or you're not posting 227 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,120 what you believe in, but at the same time you should be humble 228 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,080 enough to be like, OK, maybe my joke wasn't as funny as I 229 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,320 thought. You know what I mean? 230 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:37,400 So, yeah, that's where I feel like there's, yeah, a lot of 231 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,000 people approach it with their own subjective version of what 232 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,360 they think the market might want versus versus like what their 233 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,160 audience will like. Great. 234 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,720 So basically I, I love it. Yeah. 235 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,480 Like, well, it's supposed to every single day. 236 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,200 And then I guess it's just a lot of you also looking at data sort 237 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,720 of what, what's popular do more of that. 238 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,520 And I, I guess then it becomes kind of a bit similar to the way 239 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,880 you approach to hacking the the App Store right where you just 240 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,960 running experiments. Yeah, I mean, some fun, fun 241 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,480 things to give people some tactical insights here you can 242 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,960 use, there's all sorts of different tools. 243 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,240 One of them is called Social social Blade. 244 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,680 On Social Blade, you can look at other people's new follower 245 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:25,120 count metrics. And so I looked at some of the 246 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,720 top influencers in crypto and I looked at their spiky moments 247 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:28,960 when they got a lot of followers. 248 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,080 And then I went on and I used Twitter advanced search to go 249 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,120 look at which tweets they put out on the day where they got 250 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,760 the most followers. It's really not rocket science, 251 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,800 but I, I, I have gone down the rabbit hole pretty extensively. 252 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,920 So yeah, Twitter Advanced Search and Socialblade 2 free tools 253 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,120 that are great. Twitter Advanced search as well. 254 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,680 You can look for every single tweet that mentions Bitcoin 255 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:52,560 mining. And I'm just coming up with 256 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,680 random words here and Trump. And you could look for the top 257 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:00,040 performing tweets ever or between a certain date range or 258 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,640 from a certain influencer with those keywords. 259 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,280 So Twitter advanced search is built into Twitter. 260 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,840 I used to go to the toolbar, type in a a query into the in 261 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,680 the Twitter search bar and then tap the three little dots 262 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:13,520 that'll open up the the Twitter advanced search. 263 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,480 Almost no one uses that. It's, it's pretty funny too, 264 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,280 because you know, my professional capacity, and we'll 265 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,440 touch on this in a second is, is in marketing where I used to 266 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,160 leave marketing when I Kraken and now I do fractional CMO work 267 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,440 and marketing advisory work alongside my fund. 268 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,600 What's funny is I interview social media managers and I'm 269 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,880 the rare CMO that understands social to a degree that is 270 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,560 extremely proficient, right? Most CMOS don't have a huge 271 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,480 social media presence. So for me, I, you know, if they 272 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,960 don't use Twitter advanced search, I'm, I'm definitely not, 273 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,160 not going to hire them. I'm like, this is one of the 274 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,720 easiest ways to find alpha. So it's funny though, most most 275 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,080 people don't pull open Twitter advanced search or they won't 276 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,760 have much insights into like how they think through optimizing 277 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,120 their content for conversion or for like maximum engagement. 278 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,760 Great No, I love this and I really appreciate it. 279 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,400 I think it's I'm going to I'm going to aim to be one of the 280 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,000 people defying your rule of nobody ever follows you single 281 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:15,920 lessons. So. 282 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,040 I hope to see some Brian tweets 2 years from now. 283 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920 Let's let's, let's do it. Yeah, yeah. 284 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,720 OK. So and then you mentioned, so 0 285 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,720 block was acquired right, that was required by Kraken or? 286 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,800 So block blockchain.com acquired A0 Block back in December 2013 287 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,120 and I came on board blockchain.com as the first 288 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,760 product manager, which is quite some time ago. 289 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,320 And to be honest, I was a very mediocre product manager, but 290 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,360 none of us really knew what we were doing at the time. 291 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,600 So it's just what it was in crypto back then. 292 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,280 There weren't there were many a players in the space and I was, 293 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,600 I was doing, we were all doing our best. 294 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,960 So yeah, blockchain.com was one of the hottest companies back in 295 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,240 2013. Nowadays, no one really talks 296 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,440 about them. They kind of they very much 297 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,280 faded from relevancy. But back in 2013, blockchain.com 298 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,240 was the most popular non custodial wallet. 299 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,200 There weren't hardware wallets back then, or at least not that 300 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,880 I can remember. And before BIP 39, we didn't 301 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,760 have, we didn't have mnemonics, 12 to 24 word backups. 302 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,000 So you still have to print out your private key. 303 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,760 Watching a COM was the first non custodial wallet that you know, 304 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,080 they, they had the wallet that basically they had the wallet 305 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,720 file and they would deliver, you know, the wallet file down to 306 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320 the browser and you would decrypt it in your browser, you 307 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,800 know, entering your your password. 308 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,320 So it was a pretty huge user experience breakthrough and it 309 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,120 was the most popular wallet at that time. 310 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,920 So that was a really cool experience. 311 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,120 But yeah, if we want to kind of round out the court, the career 312 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,680 side did that did change tip? You probably remember change tip 313 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,160 but we did micro payments. Yeah, yeah, on Twitter where you 314 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,200 could. Yeah, you could send someone a 315 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,720 beer and the beer would represent $2.00 worth of Bitcoin 316 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,120 or yeah, which is a pretty fun dynamic, you know, because 317 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,280 Twitter eventually came out with like the ability to tip each 318 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,040 other in, like Satoshi's so explored that. 319 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,640 That company failed though, unfortunately. 320 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,680 So I was just an employee there, but that company failed. 321 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,760 Then I worked at Uber headquarters on Ryder Gross and 322 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,040 growth marketing. Worked for some legendary folks 323 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,480 there. That was very formulative to 324 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,960 building out a kind of my my more formalized career in 325 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,680 marketing. Uber was a really fun company, a 326 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,440 very libertarian company where Uber, people forget Uber was 327 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,400 illegal in every single city it launched. 328 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,160 And like, there's not many tech companies who are like, yeah, 329 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,240 fuck the laws, we're just going to go full illegal. 330 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,000 You know, Uber was a very fun culture of like high intensity, 331 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,040 but like, and, but very polite. But also the idea that there are 332 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,800 no rules. Like there's consequences to 333 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,520 breaking a rule, but don't let these rules define you and, and 334 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,160 stop you from building something amazing. 335 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,400 You know, same with like Elon Musk and other companies where 336 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,400 they kind of break all these barriers of what people thought 337 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,520 was never possible. You know, laws are laws. 338 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,600 But like, are, are taxi laws moral? 339 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,160 Not really. You know, I don't think there's 340 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,120 any morality there. That was just a cabal. 341 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,360 So we broke up that taxi cabal and then left there, did another 342 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:13,080 startup called Interchange. We got bought by Kraken and I 343 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,880 came over. I came on board at Kraken and 344 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,960 eventually built out the marketing team from 2 to 30. 345 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,800 That was from 2019 through 2022. What was the experience like 346 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,200 doing marketing at Kraken? Krakens intense, we had a lot of 347 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,680 catch up to do. I think to be I think this is 348 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,840 like both pretty obvious with our our website and other 349 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,680 marketing materials. We had done very little 350 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,320 marketing. The previous CMO had just been 351 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,480 let go and I had brought in Jeremy Welch, the Chief Product 352 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,120 Officer And so I pitched Jeremy and and Jesse, I said, hey, I 353 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,480 think I could take this team from 2 and scale it out to be in 354 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,560 a real marketing org. The previous CMO didn't really 355 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,760 have that crypto sort of mindset and they just weren't a good 356 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,200 fit. And so it was a pretty strenuous 357 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,640 intense process of like marketing hadn't really been 358 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,720 represented well in the company. We hadn't redesigned our 359 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,920 homepage in four years. I mean this, you can use the 360 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,280 Wayback Machine to look at this. So this isn't sharing sensitive 361 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,400 information, but there were a lot of things that we hadn't 362 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,680 done before that were brass tacks for marketing org. 363 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,640 So we had a lot of catch up to do, a lot of work to take it 364 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,920 over what marketing did to some degree. 365 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:21,960 So I had to claw back that territory. 366 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,800 So clawing back that territory and building up the analytics 367 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,480 infrastructure, building up trust, which is, you know, takes 368 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,480 a very long time to do, especially when you're looking 369 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,560 at budgets of Kraken and and coin basis size. 370 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,560 When you go start to spend and you're allocating, you know, 371 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,800 millions of dollars per different marketing channels. 372 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:42,960 So there's two things in marketing that are kind of 373 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,160 define the success of marketing, right? 374 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,480 It's incrementality. Did US spending money on 375 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,640 marketing lead to incremental revenue, right, which is 376 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,880 actually quite difficult to to to determine. 377 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,880 And then oftentimes the way to calculate that is turning all 378 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,560 the ads off and then turning them back on again. 379 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,040 So there's which at Uber we did that called an incrementality 380 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,440 test incrementality. So did the additional, the 381 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,640 marketing dollars that we spent at it increase additional income 382 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,280 or or revenue? And then calculating the 383 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,960 lifetime value of a customer, that's really difficult because 384 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,760 we know what it costs to acquire a customer, but predicting how 385 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,320 much money they're going to make us, that is, you know, that is a 386 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,200 complex future cash flows calculation, which are what 387 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,640 requires a lot of assumptions. So Long story short, those 388 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,240 conversations are really nuanced and took a long time to develop, 389 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,280 I would say a rigorous framework that we all agreed, agreed upon. 390 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,000 So yeah, building, I'm working at crack. 391 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,480 It was a very strenuous, very intense role. 392 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,680 I worked at about 100 hours a week for three years. 393 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,360 So it was not sustainable long term. 394 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,440 That's where I left crack. And I wanted to go do something 395 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,640 a little bit more, a little bit better work life balance. 396 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,720 And also three years at an exchange, three years in crypto 397 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,520 at any companies, a long time. And I wanted to go to like, go, 398 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,800 go get my arms around the next challenge. 399 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,440 So let's talk about your fund should also disclose here. 400 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,120 I actually talked about your fund with you at the Situation 401 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,240 Roundtable earlier this year and then ended up investing in your 402 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,440 fund as well. So I want to disclose that here. 403 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,040 But yeah, so you, you launched a Bitcoin focused one called 404 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,760 Asymmetric. Why did you decide to do that? 405 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,960 Yeah, great question. So when I was at Kraken, I was 406 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000 in, you know, I was putting out content around Bitcoin and I 407 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,400 started to look into Bitcoin Defy. 408 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,640 Now at this time, that was like lightning coin joins, stacks, 409 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,440 liquid really wasn't a lot going on there. 410 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,840 But I saw a glimmer of something that could happen. 411 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,720 And if Defy could happen on top of Bitcoin, which Bitcoin is the 412 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,960 biggest chain out there in terms of like like market cap, it's 413 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,720 bigger than everything else combined. 414 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,560 It's not just bigger than Ethereum, It's not just bigger 415 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,680 than Solana, it's bigger than all of them combined. 416 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,480 And if Defy could ever be a lock there, this would be the biggest 417 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,680 opportunity ever to exist in crypto. 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,160 So when I was leaving Kraken, this is where I identified where 419 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,680 I wanted to spend the rest of my career was in Bitcoin Defy. 420 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,160 So this is 20/22. Remember, this is before 421 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,160 Ordinals came out. Ordinals very much popularized 422 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,520 Defy on top of Bitcoin. But before that, this was a very 423 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,440 weird thing to do. Most people didn't believe this 424 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,400 could happen. This belief was attacked by both 425 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,440 the Bitcoin Maxis and the other other crypto folks. 426 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:31,680 Everyone's like, that's impossible. 427 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,320 That's never going to happen. And so TechCrunch actually wrote 428 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,920 up my departure from Kraken where I lay out my thesis in 429 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,160 July of 2022 for Bitcoin Defy, which is fun to read back on, 430 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,320 read back on because it's it's kind of prophetic. 431 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,600 So in doing that, I left Kraken and started to do fractional CMO 432 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800 work where I helped out companies like Taproot Wizards 433 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,680 and Trust Machines. These are really popular, really 434 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,720 well known companies in the Bitcoin Defy world. 435 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,560 I was boots on the ground at seeing what they were building 436 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,840 and seeing what they were capable of doing with whether it 437 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,000 be ordinals or Bitcoin layer two tech like stacks in seeing how 438 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,640 those could be built. For me, this was kind of a 439 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,560 breakthrough where I'm like, this is going to be a thing. 440 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,920 This is this. I'm an early product builder, 441 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,840 early marketer and I I can see this category being huge. 442 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,440 So I started to cut Angel checks into the space. 443 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,880 And then in earlier part of this year, I decided to formalize 444 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,240 this into a fund called the Asymmetric Bitcoin D5 Venture 445 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,760 Fund. It's a fund within the firm 446 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,240 called Asymmetric. Asymmetric has another fund, 447 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,760 another two funds in the firm I run the Bitcoin D5 intra fund. 448 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,400 We invest in the early stage Bitcoin D5 projects that are 449 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,120 focused on like protocols. So this could be a Bitcoin L2A 450 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:48,400 meta protocol or a DAP. And so we've already cut 6 451 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,720 checks into the category one of the mean fractal Bitcoin. 452 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,200 I don't know if you've been paying attention to that fractal 453 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,280 Bitcoin. They've already debuted. 454 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,960 So they've already had their initial token off their initial 455 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,680 token generation event and they have like $20 million a day in 456 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,760 trading volume at like a $3 billion market cap. 457 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,960 So I'm not sure if you even knew that yet. 458 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,000 I'm I'm sort of delivered. Actually, no, I, I I fractal is 459 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,680 is one I'm not I mean, I follow a bit the this space. 460 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,000 It's also something where you know, it primarily run course 1 461 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 staking company. So we are also spending a fair 462 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,880 bit of time, you know, starting to run infrastructure for some 463 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,880 of these Bitcoin site, Bitcoin connected associated protocols. 464 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,400 But this is not one I I actually didn't follow this one. 465 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,560 I think a connected connected is an easier way to phrase it. 466 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,600 It's hard to what what is the definition of an L2 these days? 467 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,640 It's a little bit subjective. So yeah, connected to Bitcoin in 468 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,560 some sort of way. I think that's a fair way to 469 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,880 associate it. But yeah, we, we already made 470 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,200 six investments. The fund started in February. 471 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,040 We came out of the gate storming because this was the right time, 472 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,120 right opportunity. So for us, it's been, it's been 473 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,680 a very exciting six months. It's been a very exhausting 6 474 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,720 months. Raising and deploying at the 475 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,560 same time was, was quite intense. 476 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,240 But we got into some really good deals. 477 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,360 I've spent a ton of time as a founder, almost a decade as a 478 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:15,760 founder. So I know what founders look 479 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,480 like, what founders are going to, you know, really hustle for 480 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,160 seven to 10 years to make this happen. 481 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,680 I look for people that are in it for the log haul. 482 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,360 So it's been it's been cool to see and been been really fun to 483 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:28,920 be on the other side of the table as an investor. 484 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,720 Cool, amazing. So let's maybe let's talk a 485 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,600 little bit about sort of Bitcoin history because in a way this is 486 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,480 an interesting thing that has happened. 487 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,600 And I think it's sort of surprised many people, including 488 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,280 me, you know, because I mean, I got into interesting big on 489 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,560 2013. You know, it was we excited 490 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,120 about Bitcoin. I was always very excited about 491 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,720 interested in other things as well, like non Bitcoin. 492 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,400 I mean, of course, back then we already had some protocols that 493 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,080 were, you know, there was a protocol called Counterparty. 494 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,520 There was one called Master coin. 495 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,840 Later we branded the Omni that were basically looking to build 496 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,960 things on top of Bitcoin like, you know, issuing different 497 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000 assets, stuff like that. And then of course, Ethereum 498 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,520 came and I would say all of that activity kind of, you know, 499 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,440 moved to Ethereum and then to other blockchains. 500 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,480 And, and now, of course, there's a bit of, well, it's not fair to 501 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,720 say all of it, right? I think there's a good little 502 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,560 bit that remained on, on Bitcoin. 503 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,200 I mean, lightning, right, was very early on and I think some 504 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,720 work started there and I think kept going. 505 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,240 And then I remember there was also a big a big moment right in 506 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,200 the Bitcoin history was this block size debate, which 507 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,600 probably most listeners do not remember, but some of you will, 508 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,600 right where there was a huge controversy around sort of 509 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,280 should the block size be increased. 510 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,240 But I think it was also a more a deeper controversy about, you 511 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,960 know, how should we think about protocol changes to Bitcoin. 512 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,640 So how do you see that kind of like history of Bitcoin and how 513 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,040 it LED now to this new emergence of these new protocols and this 514 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,560 innovation? Yeah, that's a really good 515 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,960 question. I appreciate that you brought it 516 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,560 up. When we look at what what the, 517 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,280 the short take on this is that a lot of these things started on 518 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,560 Bitcoin, Ethereum popularized them, and now they're coming 519 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,520 back to Bitcoin. For example, NFTS started on 520 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,320 Bitcoin with Counterparty, Rare Pepes. 521 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,480 Rare Pepes are the first NFTS ever created. 522 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,000 And so it wasn't crypto kitties that were the first NFTS who was 523 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,560 actually on a Bitcoin called Rare Pepes Ethereum. 524 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,640 Though, of course, I think the architecture of the Ethereum 525 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,920 protocol is much more advantageous for the blossoming 526 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,600 of, of NFTS in the 17 through 2023 era. 527 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,920 NFTS have come back to Bitcoin in the form of ordinals and 528 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,080 actually think it's a better way to do NFTS on a blockchain cause 529 00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,880 the graphic assets exist on chain. 530 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,200 There's a lot of elements of that that I think are a little 531 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,080 bit more congruent with what we really want an NFT to be. 532 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,200 We also don't want a contract for NFTS to be changed. 533 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,400 Or you could, you could add or remove items from a collection, 534 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,040 whereas like they can't happen with ordinals. 535 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,760 So there. And there's a costliness factor 536 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,200 as well. Like with other chains, you can 537 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,160 spin up NFTS, 10s of thousands of them almost for free. 538 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,760 Versus on Bitcoin, you have to inscribe them, which is very 539 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,360 costly because you have to pay for that block space like anyone 540 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,000 else does, like any other transactor. 541 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,040 So there's some, I think kind of really interesting game dynamics 542 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,200 that appear here where these are very costly to inscribe, which 543 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,120 reduces the number of collections and I think 544 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,680 increases the quality of the output. 545 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,440 That's one example. We also have things like, you 546 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,280 know, layer twos like Bitcoin experimented with lightning and 547 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,520 liquid being in rootstock, being in stacks, but liquid has no 548 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,560 activity. Same with rootstock and 549 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,800 lightning has minimal activity. I mean, I'm still bullish on, on 550 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,320 all these. I, I want to see all these L 551 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,920 twos succeed, but that's just kind of like I'm just laying 552 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,440 down the facts of what's going on today. 553 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,280 But on Ethereum, you saw this hugely emergent blossoming L2 554 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,480 ecosystem. And I think we're going to see 555 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,040 that come back to Bitcoin in this cycle. 556 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,680 And that's why we're investing in that category. 557 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,240 There's a lot of Bitcoin L twos here that I think are have 558 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,880 looked at how the Ethereum L twos launched the last bull run 559 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,320 taking those playbooks and bringing them back to Bitcoin. 560 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,400 So I think we're going to see a Bitcoin L2 renaissance happen 561 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,240 this cycle. We we've seen some early 562 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,800 glimmers of this with like STAX, for example, has a 3 billion 563 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,600 market cap. And so STAX, I think the STAX is 564 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,920 almost 10 years old now. The protocol didn't launch until 565 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,560 a few years ago, but they've been working on it for almost a 566 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,280 decade. I think that they're sort of 567 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,640 leading the way of of expectations of like what this 568 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,280 cycle is going to look like. But yeah, we are just so again, 569 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,240 to mimic the NFT route, but started on Bitcoin, Ethereum 570 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,520 popularized them or did them at scale. 571 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640 Now it's coming back to Bitcoin in a certain fashion. 572 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,120 So there's that. Now going back to your question 573 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,120 around block size, Bitcoin protocol upgrades, kind of 574 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,120 community and political split. So there definitely is a riff in 575 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,640 the community politics wise of folks who want this activity to 576 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,400 happen on Bitcoin versus those who don't. 577 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,560 Most of the people who do not want this activity to happen on 578 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,480 Bitcoin are very new Bitcoiners. They weren't around for the 579 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,320 block size, whereas they also weren't around for any of the 580 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,280 early Bitcoin discussions where in the 2013 through 2016 cycle, 581 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,280 we would often say, well, let's let the other alt experiment on 582 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,920 stuff and we'll bring what works back to Bitcoin. 583 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,320 Well, we clearly saw this worked on Ethereum and Solana and we're 584 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,560 bringing it back to Bitcoin. So, you know, those folks aren't 585 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:46,640 Ogs. They're not, they haven't been 586 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,120 around a long time and they don't really rock why Bitcoin's 587 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,120 valuable. They're also really obsessed. 588 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,840 These kind of newer Bitcoins are, which is very bizarre, kind 589 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,880 of like the B cashiers. They're obsessed with payments, 590 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,760 like using Bitcoin to pay for coffee and stuff, which again, 591 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,960 does not solve the problem. I mean, you're OG enough to 592 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,000 remember this. We've gone through three waves 593 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,600 of this. We made a serious attempt at 594 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,640 that, I mean, but that just did not work at all and it's not 595 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,160 going to work. For a very simple product 596 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,960 reason. What problem is it solving? 597 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,720 It's not solving a problem. Bitcoin solves other problems. 598 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,720 It solves the problem of storing your money in a way that's hard 599 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,400 to be hard to seized. So like Bitcoin is extremely 600 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,880 hard to seize if you if you store them on a private key that 601 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,160 you control like you, you, you control your private key. 602 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,840 It has a monetary policy that is the best monetary policy on the 603 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,480 planet amongst crypto assets and traditional Fiat and gold. 604 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,480 And then you look at it the other factor which is it's 605 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,200 immutability. You can't censor it. 606 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,600 That's great, but I don't need it. 607 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,000 Censorship resistant nuclear grade payments for my cup of 608 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,760 coffee. And so in, you know, to 609 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,880 sacrifice the user experience. It's also more costly to ask a 610 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,240 consumer to do that. I think it's a grossly negligent 611 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,800 way to approach product building. 612 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,720 And if we look at the last 12 years have been in the space, 613 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,840 we've seen hundreds of payment startups fail hundreds. 614 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,480 I mean, there's no, there's no reason why a consumer would want 615 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:15,960 this. And they consistently bring up 616 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,680 talking points like, well, merchants like it. 617 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,240 I'm like, that's great. I'm sure merchants love it, but 618 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,280 that doesn't solve the other part of the equation of people 619 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,880 wanting to pay. And so I feel like I'm taking 620 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,720 crazy pills after all this time. ANYWAYS, I, I, I'm going off on 621 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,560 a tangent. There's A2 categories of 622 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,840 Bitcoiners is like the OG ones who understand all the nuances 623 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,960 of how Bitcoin development has occurred so far, which by the 624 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,320 way, Bitcoin has changed a number of times. 625 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,000 Not materially though, but these are like some more small 626 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,280 upgrades and they understand that Bitcoin has to change a 627 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,840 little bit in the future to sort things like bugs and and some 628 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,800 things that allow for more expressibility. 629 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,120 So there's a really big proposal called OP Cat that's gotten a 630 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,040 lot of momentum, the Bitcoin community and the block size 631 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,200 wars. What we all agreed on was that 632 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,360 Bitcoin was going to scale in layers. 633 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,920 Then not all the activity was going to happen on the Bitcoin 634 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,920 base layer because we couldn't just keep keep increasing the 635 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,520 block size for forever. We had to scale Bitcoin in 636 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480 layers as part of that. That means we have to push user 637 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,120 activity to the Bitcoin layers as transaction fees. 638 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,680 It could be more expensive on L1. 639 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,200 People can only transact on L twos and maybe occasionally 640 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,640 transact on the L1. If that happens, we need to 641 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,400 allow for trustless bridging in a much more the rigorous 642 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,360 architecture of these L twos connected to Bitcoins L1. 643 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,440 And right now we don't have that things like OP cat or covenants 644 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240 allow us to, I would say, deliver on our original 645 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,480 compromise and promise of Bitcoin scaling and layers to a 646 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,080 level that I think really supports that user activity in a 647 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,640 way where people don't have to make all these trade-offs when 648 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,480 they're on this L2. They can use this L2 with almost 649 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,440 the same security assumptions as Bitcoin L1. 650 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,480 I think that's that I think is extremely important for the 651 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,480 future of the protocol. I know this is also something 652 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,800 that I think there's been discussions for for many years, 653 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,760 right, where people were like, hey, let us add a bit of 654 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,199 functionality to Bitcoin that basic then allows, you know, 655 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,679 verification much more easily or things happening elsewhere. 656 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,600 So I remember I think there was also, you know, snarks or there 657 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,560 was a bunch of stuff that was discussed here. 658 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,400 Can you just explain what OP cat like how it works and what 659 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,080 exactly it is? Yeah. 660 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,320 So OP cat was originally in Bitcoin. 661 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,159 Satoshi put it in Bitcoin and then removed it because he 662 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,920 wasn't sure if there might be a bug introduced. 663 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,159 He also, there was a lot of other OP codes. 664 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,320 That's where OP stands for OP code. 665 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,760 There's a lot of other OP codes that he disabled as well. 666 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,800 Some of those were RE enabled, some of those weren't. 667 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,880 When we look at OP Cat, cat stands for concatenation, which 668 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,000 means combining and so it allows you to combine code and through 669 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,720 that you are able to build things like trestles, bridges. 670 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,920 I am not technical enough to dive into the details of exactly 671 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,800 code wise how that works, but this works with eight lines of 672 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,040 code. That's it. 673 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,360 It's an extremely tiny upgrade. And what's nice too is it's not 674 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,120 a, it's not a hard fork, it's a soft fork. 675 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,360 So with that, what that means is that we don't have to. 676 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,280 For example, most of the bridged Bitcoin today is protected 677 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,800 through a Federated model, which means multi sig. 678 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:27,520 There are multiple folks who control this Bitcoin in a in a 679 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,040 pot and we have to trust that they won't collude with each 680 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,440 other to take that Bitcoin away from us, which that's an OK 681 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,640 security assumption, but it's not great with OP cat. 682 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,280 We can have trustless bridging where we don't trust this cabal, 683 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,360 we don't trust this group. We can use Bitcoin on these L 684 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,400 twos in a way that we don't have to trust the L2 or any other 685 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,880 group. We can use that Bitcoin in a 686 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,720 almost purely trustless manner. I had, I feel like I had a 687 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:57,400 podcast or I had the conversation just recently 688 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,040 where, you know, there's also discussion around the ZK and you 689 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,760 know, whether you could like verify or bring in the future 690 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,680 make them change for Bitcoin so you could verify ZK proofs Is OP 691 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,520 cat, would it enable that? Or do you think this is going to 692 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,080 be sort of like the only and last change that's needed? 693 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,000 Or are there some other things that would also be powerful to 694 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,200 have in the future? Yeah, I mean, there's been 695 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,440 discussions of bringing back almost all these these OP codes 696 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,560 or kind of like the it's called like the great script 697 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,000 restoration process where like we would it would be OP CAT and 698 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,880 a bunch of other ones, Covenants, CTV, these other 699 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,680 proposals have a lot of energy behind them, a lot of political 700 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,960 momentum. Some of these allow for 701 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,760 verification of like CK Starks, like what you mentioned. 702 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,920 You know, I would say it's TBD on on if one or multiple get a 703 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,800 get sort of through consensus. But I would say like CTV and 704 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,880 OPCAD have the highest momentum behind them. 705 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,160 And and so I mean, I also remember actually at this block 706 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,520 size, when this block size debate happened years ago, of 707 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,840 course, one of the big challenges was that or one of 708 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,720 the big challenges, But you know, it's also a feature of 709 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:12,840 Bitcoin to some extent is that there's no governance process, 710 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,800 right? So we basic or no official like 711 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,120 governance process. So you basically had, you know, 712 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,440 on the one hand, Bitcoin Co developer who controlled the bit 713 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,840 GitHub repo, there was some sort of governance on that. 714 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,760 Who has access, who gets kicked off? 715 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,360 And then of course, you have the miner ultimately who decide what 716 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,800 software they run, who are like really the ultimate arbiters. 717 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,760 How do you see this kind of governance process playing out 718 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,000 around around OP Cat? And when do you hope this is 719 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,000 going to be part of the Bitcoin protocol? 720 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,120 Yeah. So you know, when we look at 721 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,640 the, the biggest thing in the box has was there was two 722 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,080 things. One, technically the protocol 723 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,840 can't just scale in larger and larger block sizes for forever. 724 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,760 Now is the Bitcoin current block size perfect? 725 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,600 No, but we don't know what the perfect block size should be. 726 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,960 But what we do know is that you would eventually want to have 727 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,600 some sort of cap on the block size. 728 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,680 And you want a cap because the bigger it is, the harder it is 729 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,280 to run a node, the less number of nodes you have and the less 730 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,680 amount of people who can connect directly to the Bitcoin network. 731 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,240 Bitcoin network prizes itself prides itself in the ability for 732 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,920 people to connect directly with it and make that semi easy to 733 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,800 run. This is different than a lot of 734 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,320 the other block chains which are much more complex to run a node 735 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,960 or much more costly to run a node. 736 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,720 That were some of the considerations. 737 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,040 The reason why you know, So what is the right what's the right 738 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,840 block size? No one knows what the right 739 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,000 block size should be. But what we did know is that the 740 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,680 process to make changes in Bitcoin, there were a group of 741 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,280 businesses that wanted to push a a block size increase and the 742 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,280 Bitcoin community revolted against that. 743 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,640 And so that's where Bitcoin Cash was, the hard fork that was 744 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,840 resulted from this kind of cabal coming together and trying to 745 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,280 push changes in Bitcoin. The outcome of this basically 746 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,840 showed that the Bitcoin network isn't owned or controlled by 747 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,280 companies. It's controlled by everyone in 748 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,760 the process of getting something upgraded. 749 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,520 And Bitcoin is extremely complicated. 750 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,720 You basically have to convince everyone to change their node 751 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,440 software to run your version of Bitcoin. 752 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,200 And so, you know, different proposals. 753 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,480 Hard forks are extremely difficult and Bitcoin doesn't 754 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,480 upgrade through hard forks. It upgrades through soft forks, 755 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,160 primarily through soft forks. So with soft forks, you know 756 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,960 that that's a much easier upgrade process. 757 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,120 But essentially you have to get, you know, miners, node runners, 758 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,840 economic actors and the community all on board. 759 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,520 And so that process is extremely convoluted. 760 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,360 But if you go to Qantas, so Tappert Wizards, one of my 761 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,960 clients, they built out something called BIP land, VIP 762 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,360 land. BIP land is a comic strip that 763 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,320 shows you how a BIP or Bitcoin, you know, improvement proposal 764 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,160 gets implemented, which is any sort of upgrade to Bitcoin, what 765 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,120 process it goes through to be evaluated. 766 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,680 Most of these of course have a multi year evaluation period 767 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,960 where it's talked about, theorized, analyzed by some of 768 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,680 the top brightest minded cryptography. 769 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,120 And then people make it, it's given a BIP and the BIP is a 770 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,360 proposal and eventually there's enough political buy in from all 771 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,280 those parties I mentioned earlier to where that BIP gets 772 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:23,960 implemented. But yeah, it's a it's a 773 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,400 convoluted and very lengthy and laborious political process, 774 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,160 which is good. You don't want changes to be 775 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,240 easy to be added to the protocol because if they could malicious 776 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:38,000 actors like states like governments or people who've 777 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,800 paid off certain individuals, they could push proposals 778 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,400 forward with little. If there's little resistance, 779 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,760 then all of a sudden you've got a lot of changes in the protocol 780 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,440 that could be hazardous. Yeah, for sure. 781 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,240 I mean, I, I was in the time in favor of the block size increase 782 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,080 as I think a lot, a lot of people were right in the 783 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,840 community. Now, I do feel that in 784 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,360 retrospect, and I felt like the arguments against increasing it, 785 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,720 it didn't make like a ton of sense to me, except one that I 786 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:13,000 actually feel like wasn't really made a lot during that debate. 787 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,720 But I feel like later I was like, that's actually a really 788 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:20,520 big benefit that it sort of the heartful didn't happen, which is 789 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,200 exactly your point, right? It's basically just about, you 790 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,280 know, the difficulty of changing a Bitcoin protocol also gives 791 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,400 you, you know, a huge amount of resilience against, yeah state 792 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,680 actors or others that will end up wanting to disrupt the 793 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,960 network. And when when we look at 794 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,520 bitcoins purpose, right, like what problem does it solve? 795 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,440 A lot of the block size increase folks were like, oh, it's meant 796 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,680 for payments and we did never really saw the payments use case 797 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,000 take off. So not only was a technical, 798 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,600 the, the technical knowledge was off because you can't just keep 799 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,320 scaling for forever. You have to eventually have a 800 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,080 limit. 2 is that they didn't even understand bitcoins value 801 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,600 prop like why Bitcoin is valuable? 802 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,520 What problem was it solving? And it's not cheap payments. 803 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,920 And then finally, you know, the process to upgrade Bitcoin. 804 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,000 Yeah, that it had to be this really laborious process, 805 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,800 because otherwise you would introduce easy political changes 806 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,640 that would be kind of done out of whim. 807 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:15,440 Do you hope, OP Cat's going to happen like this year, next 808 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,360 year? I mean, this year probably not, 809 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,640 no. Next year or like what's the 810 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,360 sort of timeline that you hope? I think we're looking at 811 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,040 probably one to two years. I think other folks are more 812 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,360 optimistic. I'm also throwing out a 813 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,920 prediction that had OP cat. If it does get implemented 814 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,800 sooner, it'll mark the top of the cycle. 815 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,960 So, so the top of the cycle being it gets implemented. 816 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,320 We, we saw a little bit of this in previous cycles where 817 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,400 protocol updates are highly anticipated and a lot is traded 818 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,040 as people think, OK, upgrade to the protocol. 819 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,160 That's a good thing, which almost always is. 820 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,920 So I think it would trade really well and that would probably 821 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,320 mark kind of the peak fervor and peak FOMO of the market. 822 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,800 You're doing this Bitcoin D5 fund. 823 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,320 Why is Bitcoin D5 so important? What what do you hope are the 824 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,280 kind of like use cases, utilities, user experiences that 825 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,000 Bitcoin D5 will enable? Yeah. 826 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,080 Well, we've seen all these use cases over in Ethereum and 827 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,320 Solana. So I think it's pretty well 828 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,560 established, but easy ones to pick out lending and borrowing 829 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,000 other types of assets. You have NFTS and governance 830 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,560 tokens, which are unique types of assets that do not compete 831 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,560 with Bitcoin as a money. They're very distinctly 832 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,360 different. Like we wouldn't say that 833 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,240 Bitcoin competes with Apple stock. 834 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,720 It's not the same thing. I mean, some Bitcoiners might, 835 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:34,840 they could claim that like people park their wealth in S&P 836 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,040 just to like make sure that their money doesn't get inflated 837 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,440 away. But for all the intents and 838 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,760 purposes, like a money doesn't compete with other asset types. 839 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,200 There's multiple types of assets. 840 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,640 And so NFTS and governance tokens I think are really key. 841 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,960 We've got L twos. L twos love Bitcoin to scale. 842 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,800 And what's really interesting about Bitcoin L twos versus 843 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,560 Ethereum L twos is that Bitcoin L twos are more expressive. 844 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,040 Ethereum L twos are just cheaper and faster. 845 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,920 Bitcoin L twos are cheaper, faster and more expressive 846 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,880 because these Bitcoin L twos can be like EVM or SVM, which means 847 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,920 that you can get all of these really cool D fi things that you 848 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,880 want to go build on this Bitcoin L2. 849 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,440 That's an amazing thing to happen. 850 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,520 And I think that that will pull a lot of TVL up from Bitcoin L1, 851 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,160 bring it to L2. And I think that the we're going 852 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,680 to see huge amounts of TVL, much higher than Etherium L twos. 853 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,360 Because again, the Ethereum L twos don't allow you to do more 854 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,560 things. They just allow you to do it 855 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,360 cheaper and faster. Whereas there's a very strong 856 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,840 reason you should use a Bitcoin L2 because you can do all the 857 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,040 cool defy stuff with it. So what's your prediction like 858 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:44,440 what percentage of Bitcoin do you think ends up getting used 859 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,280 in, you know, whether it's staking or some sort of 860 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,920 protocols or even just move to to some L2, but. 861 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:59,080 Good question. I mean if you look at the 862 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,120 relative like TVL lock of of Bitcoin versus Ethereum L2's 863 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,040 currently it's like a tiny fraction like .01% or .1%. 864 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,760 I mean, I think we'll see Bitcoin let's let's just talk 865 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,120 about D5 locked up in Bitcoin, locked up in Bitcoin D5, whether 866 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,320 that be L2's meta protocols, you got things as well like Babylon, 867 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,480 which is restaking where Bitcoin is being used as proof of stake 868 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,880 assets for other block chains. I think as a percentage of 869 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,960 Bitcoins market cap, probably 10%, which is enormous. 870 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,440 You know, like that's still gigantic. 871 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,160 I think Ethereum is closer to 20 to 30%. 872 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,840 But I think this cycle that's what we'll see, which 10% is 873 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,200 still enormous. And by the next cycle, then we 874 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,720 eclipse Ethereum TBL in terms of as a percentage of our market 875 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,320 cap. Yeah, that's interesting. 876 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,600 I mean, my my expectations definitely mean that it it will, 877 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,480 it will sort of remain lower because just because I think 878 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:06,480 Ethereum people are more used to like, you know, that kind of 879 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,000 from the beginning, those kind of things are like a part of the 880 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,320 Ethereum vision or as I think for Bitcoin, it's a sort of new 881 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,200 thing. So I imagine there's like maybe 882 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,360 more people who are not or it's going to take more time, right, 883 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,880 for people to really sort of wrap their head around, oh, I 884 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,960 can do something with my Bitcoin and now I can earn, you know, 885 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:32,040 some kind of yield. Well what's cool is that 87% of 886 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,360 Bitcoin owners hold them to the crypto asset. 887 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,560 So it's not like these are just a giant group of Bitcoin Maxis. 888 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,000 The Bitcoin holders all along have been multi coiners, so 889 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,040 they're, I think they're very willing and ready to do that 890 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,640 with their Bitcoin. I think that they've been doing 891 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,600 this with their Ethereum and Solana, and if they could do 892 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,120 that with their Bitcoin, they definitely will. 893 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,160 And do you think the timeline this is kind of like starting to 894 00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,520 happen now and you know, sort of you, you expect we're going to 895 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,760 see a lot of protocols go live in 2025 or like what's, what's 896 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,920 sort of the expectation on the pace of which this, this sort of 897 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,560 wave unfolds? Yeah, we've already had some go 898 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,320 live. I would say most of them are 899 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:19,840 targeting late Q4 or early Q1 for like going live with that. 900 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,560 You know, there's so much there that you know we're we're we're 901 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,560 about to see kind of an explosion of activity. 902 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,960 I think people, I think folks will definitely time their 903 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,960 launches based on market conditions. 904 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,040 So I think you're going to see a lot of these be contingent based 905 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,880 on the bull run happening. Yeah, yeah. 906 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,800 And what, what are you mentioned for a fractal earlier or like 907 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,280 what, what are the some of the projects that you think you're 908 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,320 most excited about and that you think will have the biggest 909 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,400 impact? Yeah, we invested in Bob Mezzo 910 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,040 and Bitlayer. Those are all Bitcoin L twos, 911 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,480 really great builders, love the go to market strategy. 912 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,680 We think that the go to market strategy is the most important 913 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,600 element of this. When you look at Bitcoin L twos, 914 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,040 there's, it's really hard to differentiate the different L 915 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,480 twos. And so brand positioning go to 916 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,040 market strategy is going to be critical. 917 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,600 We believe that these founders at those, those 3L twos have 918 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,320 that specific capability. Outside of that, we've got 919 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,560 Fractal, which Fractal is a meta protocol. 920 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,280 So it's not a Bitcoin L2, it's it's more of interacting with a 921 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,400 Bitcoin base layer. And it's sort of like meta 922 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,440 protocols are really interesting because essentially activities 923 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,520 happening on Bitcoin L1 and there's a another network that 924 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,640 interprets the activity happening on the Bitcoin L1 and 925 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,880 that kind of lock smart contracts and other other sort 926 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,840 of event based kind of financial primitives. 927 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,000 So then outside of Fractal, the two Daps we've invested in are 928 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,320 Liquidium. Liquidium allows you to borrow 929 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,720 Bitcoin using your ordinal as collateral and that uses 930 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,120 discrete law contracts in the Bitcoin base layer to do that. 931 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,960 Really cool piece of tech. I've been looking at DLCS for a 932 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,000 long time. I think it's super interesting. 933 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:07,480 So we've got DLCS powering, powering Liquidium, and then SAP 934 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,200 Flow is a MEV visualization tool. 935 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,720 A lot of the Dexes that are the Dexes that work on Bitcoin 936 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,160 currently use partially assigned Bitcoin transactions, and with 937 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:18,760 that, those transactions can be sniped. 938 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:24,320 So they built the first MEV visualization tool and with that 939 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,120 they allow for people to snipe those transactions. 940 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,840 They're using that to go build out something bigger. 941 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,760 I can't talk about it now, but they've got a really cool 942 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,280 strategy to go become a much bigger player in the space. 943 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,640 And they're utilizing their, I think, unique visualization of 944 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,880 Bitcoin mem pool to leverage that to something for something 945 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,080 that's I think a really, really cool bigger, bigger concept. 946 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,600 Yeah. I mean, I think that's of course 947 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,960 something that is also going to be very interesting to see, 948 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,280 right? I mean, on Ethereum, we've had a 949 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:03,240 huge amount of interesting activity around MEV and I think 950 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:05,800 it's also on some other ecosystems like Solana. 951 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,640 There's a lot happening right now. 952 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,240 But of course that kind of thing coming to Bitcoin and then 953 00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,920 interacting with the mining is going to be interesting too. 954 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,840 I'm curious. So one of the concerns that 955 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,200 people both the had around Bitcoin is also concerned that I 956 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,560 think was always felt like a really legitimate one to me. 957 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,960 Is that OK with time, the block rewards go down, the security 958 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,160 budget goes down, you know, hopefully the Bitcoin market cap 959 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:37,040 goes up So like as a percentage of the value at stake attacking 960 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,760 it becomes cheaper. Now, of course, the one thing to 961 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,240 encounter act that is if if we do see significant transaction 962 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:47,520 fees. And so I guess it seems pretty 963 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:54,880 obvious that all of this Bitcoin L2D5 meta protocol can result in 964 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,960 that. Is that also one of the things 965 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,400 you see or? Yeah, it's a huge benefit. 966 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,520 What I've written extensively on the Bitcoin block subsidy, our 967 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,640 block Bitcoin's long term security model based on the 968 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,040 declining subsidy over time. For those who don't know the 969 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,160 Bitcoin, each block has a block reward. 970 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,880 The block reward is comprised of newly minted Bitcoin, called the 971 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,200 subsidy and transaction fees. Given that at every single 972 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,040 halving we have the amount of Bitcoin subsidy per block, that 973 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,120 means that the number of Bitcoin being issued over time is 974 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,400 decreasing exponentially. That means that transaction fees 975 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,000 over time need to compensate for the reduction in subsidy. 976 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:35,440 That's why it's called a subsidy. 977 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,560 After all. There are a couple different 978 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,440 components here that a lot of people gloss over. 1 is that 979 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,280 despite the halvings, the dollar value of the Bitcoin block 980 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,080 reward has gone up exponentially over time because Bitcoin's 981 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,320 value has gone up. So if Bitcoin's value goes up, 982 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,000 then the subsidy decrease doesn't matter that much because 983 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,480 the Bitcoin's value has got up so much. 984 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,080 The US dollar value, which is a much better way for us to 985 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,840 evaluate long term security model is using something more 986 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,160 stable than Bitcoin's price to evaluate security. 987 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,200 So the dollar is typically used for that of dollar value of the 988 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,880 block size reward and that's going up over time due to 989 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,040 Bitcoin's value increasing relative to the dollar, which 990 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,400 makes sense. Transaction fees ultimately 991 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,520 though need to replace the subsidy and with ordinals we saw 992 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,200 a glimmer of that where transaction fees are extended 993 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,240 periods of non bull run time periods where transaction fees 994 00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,760 went higher and much higher and sustained for a good amount of 995 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,040 time. I think in this next bull run, 996 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,480 due to meta protocols like ordinals becoming even more 997 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,000 popular, we'll see very long term sustained high fee markets, 998 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,240 which is indicative that bitcoins long term security 999 00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:44,760 budget problem is going to be solved. 1000 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,800 Now on the Ethereum side, there's been some incredibly 1001 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,080 intellectually dishonest folks not going to call out names, but 1002 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,840 I think we know those types that constantly whine about bitcoins 1003 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,360 long term security budget problem. 1004 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,200 And the common question I asked them what they all refuse to 1005 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,800 answer is I tell that I asked them what is an appropriate 1006 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,040 level of security budget. No one knows no one knows how 1007 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,000 much is necessary. And so to say that it's flawed 1008 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,840 and bitcoins going to have to change a 21 million hard cap to 1009 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,760 keep the subsidy going because we, because the security will 1010 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,080 fall so low. I find that incredibly dishonest 1011 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,000 and just like just a really weird way to debate because they 1012 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,520 won't even come up with a level that they find appropriate. 1013 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:26,920 I'll be the cool, what's the number? 1014 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:28,760 What's, what's an appropriate level of security spend? 1015 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,600 And they're like, I don't know, but it's going down. 1016 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,800 And it, I, I think that since the Bitcoin and the per block is 1017 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,720 going down and the transaction fees aren't going up, then then 1018 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:39,720 it for sure will fail. And I'm like, well, what if 1019 00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:42,360 there's an inflection moment like Ordinals where all of a 1020 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,400 sudden there's huge demand for Bitcoin block space, which is 1021 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:45,840 what we're seeing with Bitcoin Defy. 1022 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,880 There's going to be huge demand for Bitcoin block space because 1023 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,480 people want to use this immutable Ledger that is is 1024 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,400 incredibly secure. So through that demand for that 1025 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,520 block space, we'll see transaction fees rise. 1026 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:03,360 And here's another fun one. You know, we have had much lower 1027 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,200 security budgets in the past, but Bitcoin hasn't been 1028 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,200 destroyed. Yeah, absolutely. 1029 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,200 Right. Like, so, you know, you could 1030 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,160 have destroyed it much easier previously. 1031 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,880 And it's becoming much harder as Bitcoin gets more and larger, 1032 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,720 larger in value and it has more and more transaction fees. 1033 00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:23,800 So, yeah, A, the the critics don't know what an appropriate 1034 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,000 level of security spend because it's entirely subjective. 1035 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:31,160 B, Bitcoin security spend has been increasing in dollar value, 1036 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,560 not decreasing. Yeah. 1037 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,760 That's true. I mean, although of course, it's 1038 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,760 also the case that as Bitcoin becomes more valuable, sort of 1039 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,200 the the potential gain or incentive someone has to attack 1040 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,960 it and willing to suspend to attack, you know, you'd expect 1041 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,440 that to also go up. I agree that's a, that's a good 1042 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,960 counter to that where you'd expect the security spend. 1043 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,760 So pushing that question back on them, I'm like, cool, what 1044 00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,400 percentage of market cap do you find as an appropriate level of 1045 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,560 security spend, which again introduces the topic of like 1046 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:02,960 subjectively, what's an appropriate level as a 1047 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,600 percentage of market cap? Is it one percent, 2%? 1048 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,400 You know, you could use comps, but comps are really hard. 1049 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,360 There's no such thing as before Bitcoin. 1050 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,080 There's never a thing like a blockchain. 1051 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,680 So you could look at defense spending as a percentage of GDP. 1052 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,760 Like it's really tough to come up with a number that makes 1053 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,040 sense. You could also look at what's 1054 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,040 the maximum burnable amount that a government could deploy to 1055 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:26,960 attack the network, like the US government. 1056 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,600 I mean, you know, they would attack their own citizens in 1057 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,000 this in this sort of circumstance. 1058 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,200 But you know, maybe they're willing to spend 200 billion 1059 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,760 just to burn it because, you know, in order to take the to 1060 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,760 attack the Bitcoin network, the game theory is that essentially 1061 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,920 you have to burn the money. If you want to attack Bitcoin, 1062 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,160 you would have to buy the miners and those miners can only print 1063 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,000 Bitcoin. And if you attack Bitcoin, you 1064 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,400 would make the output of the miners Bitcoin worthless. 1065 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,800 So you'd have to be willing to burn the money. 1066 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,440 So the only actors that can do that are state actors with a 1067 00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,720 huge budget. And you're talking about like 1068 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:03,920 US, China, Russia, and it's mainly China, China, US that 1069 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:05,440 could go burn that amount of capital. 1070 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,440 So that would be I think a fairway for them to argue like 1071 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,360 what an appropriate level of security spend should be. 1072 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,520 But then if they use that argument too, then you look at 1073 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,840 Ethereum and it has minuscule amount compared to that, like 1074 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,800 200 billion as well. So that would also be an issue. 1075 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,760 But I think that would be the intellectually honest way to 1076 00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,440 talk about this is a percentage of market cap. 1077 00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,200 And then we can look at comps or we could come up with some sort 1078 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,200 of framework to evaluate what that spin should be. 1079 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:30,880 Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that 1080 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,720 is for sure is that, you know, if we do see, you know, a lot of 1081 00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:38,280 activity that you know, then is, is is sort of accurate in, in 1082 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,480 Bitcoin and leads to higher transaction fees that that is 1083 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,040 certainly going to be extremely positive for the long term 1084 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,640 security of the network. For sure. 1085 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,360 Cool. Well, thanks so much, Dan. 1086 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:53,080 It was really great to have you on and I really enjoyed talking 1087 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,640 a bit about, you know, sort of state of Bitcoin and something's 1088 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,240 happening and yeah, hopefully we can do it again sometime and 1089 00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:01,280 excited to see how it's going to develop in the next years and 1090 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,040 where you're going to take asymmetric, too. 1091 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,000 Yeah, thanks for the support of the fund. 1092 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,400 It's been too long since we caught up and I hope everyone 1093 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,640 found this entertaining. Absolutely. 1094 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,680 Thanks so much, Dan. 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