Hello and welcome to episode of the podcast where we interview
crypto pound is still, is Fault leaders about the future of the
crypto Revolution. My name is Brian crane.
Today. We have a very special episode.
So I was speaking with Anatoly yaakov.
Anchor, the under and CEO Salon elapsed about Solano.
So of course Alana has had an absolutely phenomenal, you know
phenomenal growth, this year has gone up, tremendously market,
cap and activity. And we recorded this episode at
the very first big Solana conference break point, which
took place in listening that was over two thousand people there.
And it was really very vibrant event.
So I'm excited about that conversation, and I'm sure Enjoy
as well. Now, before we go to the
conversation with Anatoly. I want to talk briefly about the
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Change and start swapping today. And now if that lets go to our
conversation with Anatoly. Welcome to episode our podcast
for every interview, you know, curb the founders and talk
about, you know, the future of decentralized technology.
So this is episode 418 and I'm here today with Anatolia.
Palenko is the founder and CEO Solana.
Yeah. So welcoming and totally awesome
to be here. Yeah, so we done an episode
before here, right? So this was like, 2019, pretty
early on. You had there was a It blog
post, where you guys outline sort of the seven.
I think it was 7. U8 8 was a but one got dropped.
Archiver's right? Yeah, but yeah, it's basically
like, okay. These are like this
technological breakthrough or innovations that like Salon has
a song. Of course that was like early
on. And now, here we are today at
the Islamic conference, right Point.
Listen. Last day.
Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, how is has to compensate for you?
It was great. Yeah, it was a really
unexpected. How many people were going to
show up in how much energy they were going to bring was Ben's is
a wonderful City. So it's kind of easy to put on a
good show here. It's just a really nice place,
but just really cool to see all the people that you don't know
if their boss or not online, right?
But you know, there's people right?
People that love to code love to build stuff.
Just amazing. Oh, for you or what.
Do you feel like, Mesa Solana Community?
What's it? Like, it's this idea that we're
ready to eat glass. I think kind of started
permeated through this and the list goes back to like the
validator days when I was talking to you guys in like, you
know, start us and all the other ones that the problem was that,
like, hey, we need you to go. Go to a Data Center and put
boxes up and everyone said it's too hard except for the for the
few. Yeah.
No, I think that's definitely true rights because I guess,
Tommy, and of course, our listeners, right will be well
for we're aware of Solana this point, right?
At least on the high level. You know, I think Lana is at a
known by the six or something like that for mature but like
somewhere someone very high up. Yeah.
I don't think about it and with Let's just step back a little
bit and sort of start at the beginning.
Like what was the original vision for you for Solana?
So I'm like an operating system geek.
I worked on Brew. I worked an Android and the
Linux kernel, that's what that was.
Like the first interesting problem that I thought.
This is cool. In fact, I don't know why I
thought it was cool. It's kind of like a boring
thing, right? You have hardware and you're
just riding a little shim on top to abstract the hardware to make
it. It easy for doves, but you're
just so many concentrate offs that you're dealing with that.
It's kind of a nerds night right at the rabbit hole.
How do you build the fastest possible system call?
And things like that become kind of interesting challenges.
So when I started salana, you know, I called a bunch of my
friends from Qualcomm was like, okay.
This is a new operating system and you platform just going to
the application to do. They look like but there's stuff
running any theory of we think that's like it was super early
days with 2017 2018. Just there was an idea of a
smart contracts but throwing if T's yet while it's barely works.
And yeah, it was just this kind of, you know, let's build
another OS but now with a different set of challenges And
so maybe talk a little bit about this idea of like Solana as an
operating system. Yeah, the thing that got me
excited that I thought that I could make a difference was
that? I never thought sharding was a
viable option. So again, I the reason the
design is the way it is because it's what I'm good at.
But it also think that it's the best designed All Things
Considered. And the if you don't have
sharding, Have one constraint environment, like there's only
one of these computers then you're dealing with effectively
and embedded system. And that's where you have
constrained hardware and I'm good at finding those, you know
local minimums where you can squeeze the most performance out
of the out of a fixed set of you know, you know, memory silicon
course, whatever. So once you, once you constrain
it to like you only have this much that's all you're going to
get. How do you squeeze?
Something out. That's, that's kind of the
problem. But I'm gonna and that was to
me, kind of a challenge. So the design and everything
else that followed really try to optimize for.
Let's build the fastest possible to us given the hardware, is it
is today and where it's going, which was then still is Cuda
cores. Single instruction multiple
data, these massively parallel, you know, systems where you
have, you know, kind of a And like, you know, programming a
GPU, or a vix is different than writing a bunch of code that
does whatever it wants. It's your, you already dealing
with a little box, you know. Yeah.
So how do you, how do you make that little box?
The fundamental core part of the platform that developers Target,
right? Because I think that was, you
know, I was always where Salon was kind of unique, right, where
you have all of the other projects, you know from like
etherium near you know, many others were Were all focused on
on. Somehow.
Okay, we have this one blockchain now, it's getting
full because it like paralyzed it or like, you know, we've got
it started and then we have the system.
That's how it scales. Right?
And you went the other way. I think still salute.
The reason for that was I looked at the data sheet of, you know,
computers at the time and just Google and the internet.
Like a, what, how much, how fast can you do a signature
verification? How much of those?
You doing a GPU, how fast can you move memory from the network
card, to the GPU to do these operations?
And they just kind of like laid it out and it looked like that
with Hardware, you know, 2017, 2018, not super expensive
Hardware. Just off the shelf stuff that
you could find, you know, at Fry's or Amazon, you could get
to. You could saturate, 1 GB, which
was roughly some 100,000 TPS or 500,000 TPS.
Yes, if the messages are 256, bytes, so can you can you build
software that like, gets out of the way, the hardware, so you
can actually take in them. Any messages figure out where
the signatures are move, all the data to the GPU, run, all the
signature verification go, fetch.
All the contracts State, go figure out which programs you
want to call execute employee dump the state, transitions back
into, you know, whatever disk or storage in theory on the data
sheet. You can do that.
Practice. It's really really hard because
the operating system you're running on, will it has a
scheduler and it decides when stuff goes you have like Cassius
that are not uniform, you take a lock on one thing and it stalls
like a thousand other things and that it becomes that's the that
kind of like meat and potatoes problem.
We're just looking at Griffon do metrics and benchmarks and heat
Maps. That's that was my bread and
butter. For decades, so that's where I
thought that I could have an edge.
And so if you don't get it today, what are the bottlenecks?
It is? Like if you take a modern
system, think you guys run some benchmarks, but there's other
validators like buzzer and like a bunch of folks in the
community that they just spin up, whatever the latest and
greatest that can get and on Modern like epics with, you
know, I think 128 course or Plus without going to gpus you can
break 200,000 TPS. In a single system.
So that's just this runtime, fetch a transaction from a Linux
kernel DDP, buffer, do signature verification, go find some state
to a change in that state and write it back.
But all the states are parallelizable.
The never touch each other. So in the most kind of trivial,
you know, slip, one bit Unchained right flip as many
bits in parallel, as you can atomically, you can scale it up
without going to jail. We use to about 200,000 it maybe
the gpus maybe 250 because the bottleneck is no longer
signature verification. Its memory, not work cards.
I/O latency, you're dealing with very small packets, which is a
huge pain in the butt. However, doesn't like small
things that likes. Give me one giant chunk of
stuff. So when we outline those eight
problem, eight Solutions, it was really like 88 challenges is.
These are the things that we think we need.
To solve and this is how we think is the best best bet to
solve them. And, you know, the one that we
dropped was the kind of the least important one.
In a way around, it was storing the entire history of The Ledger
because of Esau filed coined and are we even a bunch of other
folks solve the problem and you now have robust networks that
can do, persistent storage forever of history and Doug, how
far you think this? It won't?
Take this, like, do you think Solana will be capable of like,
you know, handling sort of? Yeah, all the crypto blockchain
activity. That people wanna win create
like, link load rate, which means that as fast as packets
arrive to the network card before the next one arrives.
You can already handle the full, the full loop.
I think it's doable. Honestly, I think it's scalable
to whatever the bandwidth. You can connect rights if you
have enough. If the latest and greatest band
width is 20 GB, you can go to fpgas, go to Hardware, like
start doing this directly on the back and the neck.
I think it's doable, but that requires can have a huge
investment and both in terms of financially because you need to
hire a bunch of Engineers. You need to contract out with
like, you know, the fox comes of the world.
You'll need to build the reference platform.
That's like kind of going. Yeah, the Solana signature.
A box. So that means also like
validators running like very different setups, very different
hardware and it would be. Yeah.
This is kind of going to the, what I think will probably be
the eventual future of the stuff.
If there is such a thing as Global price discovery engine,
like what is blockchain for? I think it's for running
markets, right? And tracking ownership, but
tracking ownership is settlement, right?
And settlements part of running a market.
So if you have one giant Global, you know, State machines running
all of the world's markets for, you know, from nft.
He's inside star Atlas to, you know, BCC USD tea or whatever
the most liquid Perez, every every Market in the world, all
of the same thing. It's really feels like it should
be optimized to whatever the physics allow.
Do you think there are there mechanisms that will or like,
you know, what do you think will drive in a way, right?
For this, kind of progression to happen?
Right? Well, you what you would also
want to set like the different validate is people running
validators, have like an economic incentive to do that.
Right? They know in a way like, okay,
if someone increases their capacity, like, you know, they
can automatically benefit from that.
That is the tragedy of the commons problem.
Right? I honestly think it's over
state. Just being here right at this
conference and the people you need that's the vast super
majority of the validators and they just want to like they want
to see the whole thing succeed. But the number of people taking
advantage of the tragedy of Commons problem in a open
decentralized network in an open source Community, right?
It's like the people that you know, complain about the Linux
box, but never never try to fix them or number try to help the
deputy volume. No, it's a small number.
Just get the keys, get to filter it out.
It's like why would you be doing this?
Right? There's less plenty of other
ways to make money like you're doing this because you have some
passion, something that is like, okay.
We're going to decentralize the world.
Yeah. Sure.
I agree with that right before. Now.
We're not kill. You will need to like put a lot
of investment into that, right for sure, but it's not like too
hard, right? It's just You know the opening
ceremony and talked about the centralization, the importance
of the behavior change to maximize censorship resistance.
Not a technology problem. It's a really like a community
like needs to be aware that it's important.
Yeah, you mentioned a lot, the idea of censorship resistance.
I'm curious. Like, what kind of censorship
are you most afraid? All?
It's actually not that I'm most afraid of.
It's the one that I want to that.
I feel like will provide the most benefit.
So like Bitcoin, right? Is censorship resistant, but it
doesn't guarantee one and that is actually true about any
system any BFD system, right? You send a message Solana like
goes into Fork death because there's a denial service and bgp
router is get screwed up and the network can come to finality,
right? Is the network censorship
resistant or is it being censored?
Well, it's in 24 hours, the validators figure out how to
reroute Around that failure and continue right from the last
point of finality. And then your message gets
accepted, then they got accepted just within 24 hours and not 400
milliseconds. So, the network is no matter
what censorship resistant as long as there's at least one
validator, that's out there without a valid copy of The
Ledger that they can tell everybody.
Hey, look, this is the right. This is the valid copy.
You can all run your tools locally to verify it, everybody.
And this thing, right? So in that sense, if you don't
put a time constraint on it, it's censorship resistant, but
what people want for the benefit of actually using the stuff in
practice, is they want those guarantees within the very small
amount of time. Because when I like click a
button, you know an audience that says I like the song, I
don't want to wait 24 hours. I don't want to pay an arbitrary
amounts. I don't want to pay an Good
amount of money to get that thing, except it, right.
I want to pay a very small amount of money and have that be
confirmed in a very short amount of time.
So when you constraint that, then it becomes an embedded
systems problem, which is right. Yeah, it's fun.
Yeah. I know, of course that
definitely says like, of course, yeah, you want to I want to be
able to send a transaction when he confirmed like, you know,
pretty much as fast as a cat possible cheap, you know, I
think Salon actually does that today, does he well, but that
Doesn't, but censorship is, I mean, I guess what content
should be, right. I mean, of course he could have
like, maybe government's trying to kind of like Crackdown on
blockchain networks. And like, so, as long as you
write long as there's one copyright, right?
This is why when you look at, like, the validators app, Brian,
and all these other folks, they're like, okay.
Well, what are the data centers? What are the essence?
Let's map this out. And that's track where steak
Woods concentrated, then, let's go talk to those people and get
them to decentralize it more. And you see the process, rather
the community and people are like, it.
Given the information, everybody's making like the
right decision and they're like, okay, my notes are all in
Hefner. Let's move about.
All we have to do is just tell people.
Hey, look, there's too many nodes and hats there.
Yeah. It's a, it could like cause the
network to stall, right? If Esther has a fire, right?
And people just did it on the right.
I agree with that, right? So, of course, there's
definitely like a risk right around like Geographic.
Concentration of nodes, or maybe if you have like a few violators
that have like, you know, a very large amount of steak and then
like, maybe there's some sort of although even there.
Right. You have today.
I think 19 violators or I better like this super minority.
So, but like, I'm the censorship ring feels like a different to
that is my strategy. So, to me that it's the same
question because you're kind of looking at the Nakamoto
coefficient, you take some parameter data centers or a
Essence and then you Are assigning given whatever.
It is Data Centers, s ends, you know, Geographic, like, you
know, jurisdictions, where is the concentration of steak and
own and then you identify that bottleneck, that's above
whatever threshold. You don't like 33 percent or 15
or 5 percent. And then you go talk to those
people like, hey, look this, this is like a worrisome thing.
Can you guys move your nodes and people do it?
That's the cool part. Art, but that that again the
reason why you want to do that is because that has impact on
real time since it's your persistence.
Like I don't want to, I don't want to have this like guarantee
that if if I send a message and that's the thing that fails,
right? The Amazon ASN goes down.
He said now I have to wait, maybe 24 hours before that
message, accept it. What I want is when I send a
message within 400 milliseconds and for Fraction of assert that
always gets accepted. Yeah, I mean to me that feels
like sort of around the resilience of the network right
at all. Let's just say big, right?
It's just like you start going to objectively measurable
parameters. What is what can we?
What's objectively? Measurable like any one of those
things you can then decide, this is what we're looking at.
We think the failure rate is ax, then we need to go and make sure
that there's at least You know, why number of these things
before the network has to go through this like recovery
procedure. What do you think are the
biggest challenges ahead? Listen, all.
I mean, realistically the going to likely decline rates being
unbounded by the software, right by the implementation.
It's a really hard problem. It's like a really hard
engineering problem. So that that's kind of the
biggest challenge. It seems like the salon is fast.
Right, right. You can fast but there's 300
million, cryptocurrency holders out there.
That's the latest number I saw when we actually talk to the
folks doing analysis of, how many of those do stuff and all
the chains combined. It's like maybe 34 million of
Oaths. Yeah, actually people individual
humans signing stuff. It's a very small number.
There's a lot of like, you know, people are being you know, A
swap, or whatever, markets and etherium.
But those are mostly Bots and it's not 10 million people.
It's a very small number of people generating like, half a
billion. Whatever, the months per day.
Yeah, you know, definitely I think so.
Yeah. The real challenges are like the
engineering Woods, everything else.
I feel like is the It's like the minute.
Every if you do that, right, like everyone else in the
community will solve all the other problems.
It's just, that's the, that's the challenge that you can't fix
over a weekend. Sorry.
Yeah, like dealing with the fact that our developer tooling
requires you to buy hand pack and unpack data structures
developer can do, you know, figure out how to write a
library for that over? Spend a week or two and
everybody did, right? So that's not a problem that we
actually need to solve the hard one.
Is, if it takes two years to design Hardware, that can
actually handle and bound. It bandwidth like go up to 20 GB
and we really believe that that's what the world needs
right for the world to be fully decentralized.
And that's the thing that that's the biggest challenge that we
need to tackle. Yeah.
One thing I'm also curious about because I feel like I said, it's
a topic that's like, Discussed a lot in some other kind of crypto
communities and I think it's like less.
So in Solana is like the topic of governance and curious.
Like what do you how do you think Solana governance should
work. I mean maybe today but also in
the long term. Yeah, like I think I'm like a I
think it should have like a very clear constraint mission that
makes sense. And then the only thing that the
governance is doing is hey, are you executing in this Mission?
Or not? Like it's more just like a
backstab back. Check on the on the work that's
being done in like because if you have a Like it's almost like
a constitutional dictatorship or whatever, right?
You gotta like you gotta take what you're going to do, right?
And that's that's the thing. That's the most important and
then you invested it over a long period of time and it's not open
to question. Like whether you change the
mission? It's that.
Are you like screwing up an execution or not?
The making that big bat is the is the hard part and the bad?
Everyone is making a think internally at Labs the
foundation and for the vast majority, I think basically
everyone that I've ever talked to is that that real-time
censorship resistance piece. That's an important thing and we
should we should basically do whatever we can to maximize it.
Okay, but then like let's say they are like different
interpretations of invasion. Yes difference.
Is that arise? Like you feel like soup like
inflation was A great example. Yeah, what is the optimal rate
for inflation? Nobody knows right ahead and
does it impact censorship resistance.
Well, if you don't have it it does.
If you have too much of it, it does.
But that's again like a very wide decision thing.
Yeah. And within the community, there
was a proposal process everybody that wanted to submitted a PR
but said it should be axed. They tried to defend their
reasoning for it. There were people out.
Wanted to not have inflation at all.
Is a forum post to this. And then there was a validator
effectively vote and that's where it got rice.
So that kind of like, how do we pick a parameter?
Right? Like that's that feels like
again like a sting that you can ask the community and have it
figure it out, go through that process, but you feel like there
will be a need at some point for like sort of explicit on chain
governance system or Or like you prefer that kind of thing to
happen. Well, it means validators are
always in explicit on shared governance.
So them to take an upgrade for them to sign a feature of a
feature upgrade, right? Is explicit thing because
they're signing those messages with their validator keys.
Sure. That's true.
Yeah. Now, of course, valid is have
that role of upgrades. That's true.
Yeah, so, but like for later, one, that is the layer where
anything important with regards to governance.
This is that the validator stuff.
Hmm. I don't think you can escape it.
Yeah, I don't think you can like push it up.
I mean that's interesting. The cosmos going to dip that in
there so I can pass through mechanism to the stakeholders.
Yeah, you can of course. You can never Escape that,
right. That's always there.
I mean, that's true. Right.
I mean, I guess maybe tazewell's was the one that ruined like
first sort of trying to do that right with these automated
upgrades skill, but I like about apron always Focus offer you
like run something different. So to me, it always felt like
that's the heartbeat, the validator community.
Those are the people actually running it that the most
understanding of the day-to-day, and that's almost like, you got
to convince them to do anything. If you fail to convince them,
you're doing something wrong, right?
And you can talk with these about well, curious about any
like, what. So this is becoming a big top.
They hear him. I guess, most importantly, where
and maybe for listening to in like, not too familiar with it.
Basically, it was around the ability of miners to, like,
decide on the order of transactions.
And then there's like economic value that like, for example,
there's an Arbitrage opportunity and then someone can can, you
know, kind of. So do the Arbitrage, make some
money and then, of course, like, if you can decide like, who puts
which transaction, Does that there's value in that?
So so all those block, shaded, stech speed.
And we never thought of a v v. I'm just kidding David.
So I always thought, that, that was actually the feature for,
for blockchain. This is how they should work.
They should have Mev. And if you come from that
perspective, it means that you need to maximize the almost a
market for it like, maximize the competition format.
So, how you do that is, you reduce the block times to a
smallest amount possible. So we are 400 milliseconds, and
you have a leader, scheduled four times in a row.
So imagine it's 200 milliseconds in the universe which and every
block from one leader to the next.
And so on is actually designed where you can have more than one
leader assigned to the same slot producing the same block.
If you look at the white paper, I don't know if people got it.
There's this thing where you kind of mix, It's the things and
you can then tell the relative time of events as to be - wait
they for I got it, but all the ideas are there.
So if you have multiple block producers now and that's 200,
milliseconds me as a traitor. I'm willing to wait, you know,
two seconds. And I want to maximize the
number of bids that I see from the validators.
The real-time guarantees in Solana.
Is that if I'm a Elevator. And I'm assigned slot ton that
I'm guaranteed to be able to transmit a block in slots.
And and as long as no, more than a third of the network is
actively trying to censor me then because of how turbine
works because for pastries is forced delay function.
I'm have extremely high confidence.
They'll be able to actually submit this block and have it
confirmed. So that means that I can then
bid for this order to the user, that's willing to wait until my
blog. Therefore.
I can give him the highest rebate out of all the other
validators, right? So at this, like lowest layer by
minimizing the block time maximizing, how often we switch
maximizing company block, producers work on a single block
together, right? We can actually create the
biggest fairest, most competitive market for a TV.
And then you, then you have real value creation.
Right? Because, what is what is Mev?
It's actually, I'm observing all the world's information, every
exchange out their Twitter feeds, the cetera.
I'm creating a model for what the future price of anything is
going to be right. So I am doing value creation,
right? In predicting, the future that
I'm betting, you know, bidding for order flow.
Hey, users and the best model predictor this.
What I think the fairest price is going to be right by the time
you submit your order. Give me your orders.
I'll give you the biggest kick back.
Yeah, so I definitely agree with you right there, like, short
block times. I mean, first of all, I guess, I
mean, he's obviously harder on Solana than when this area.
I think that that's already in a way.
I think it has been reduced. That is Lana has kind of reduce
the scope of it and maybe the issue around it, but it's it is
value creation, if you can get it back to the Sir, yeah,
because you are effectively trying to predict the future,
right? Yeah, right.
Yeah, and and yeah, I think in a way you will see it feeding back
to users, right? Because I mean first of all,
right, if validators make more money with that, then it's also
something where they can reach out to say.
Oh, like, you know, we got hard work, right?
Yeah, let's reduce. He's exactly the news feeds.
Right, exactly. Right.
And maybe have any negative means, you know.
Which is what I mean by rebates, right?
And you can do, you can do it via like a global - fee rate,
right? If people want to socialize it,
or you can do it a competitive way.
They think the competition is actually Pretty good approach
because, you know, like folks, success Kahana like jump, they
have their own models, right? This is where they
differentiate, and this is where they compete.
And I think, you know, in a perfect world.
They're the ones that are like running alongside the give
validator some software. Hey run our models and the
unlike extend those prices to the users and get, you know,
everybody get everybody wants basically.
And so, I mean if Look at these sort of the debate around them.
Even if you're in right, there's also different types of a me
that people think of differently like in particular.
You're like, let's say this example of Arbitrage.
So you have like a change, a change B, and the prices are
different and someone can make money by like bring them in
equilibrium. I think that's like,
unequivocally, good thing because I have as user then, we
basically say, I can just trade on whatever am I don't have to
worry about it because the prices should be the same,
right? So that I think that's clearly
great thing. In your other things, you know,
like this sandwich attacks, right?
Which are basically, right? I mean, how does it work?
Right? So let's say user basically
says, Okay. I want to trade, you know, this
amount of point for this on amount of coin and I'm willing
to accept, you know, a price up to some amount right where and
then somebody can basically push the price that amount, take it
back and, and sort of, I get the worst possible price.
I was okay with so who, right? So who takes a loss there,
right? The LPS, or the user?
The, the tray, like, whoever makes the trade takes a lot,
right? So, if you address on the first
order, right, so if you have a competition for user flow bad,
everyone's going to say, well, I can maximize the sandwich
attacks. Yeah, and I'll give you 50% of
the profit and I keep 50, right? And some other validator says,
well give you 75 percent and keep the diagram.
Yeah, and then the user wins, right?
Well, I mean, if he can improve his take system, right?
I guess. Is the yeah, that's the reaction
would could be right at Ya about is basically try to like
maximize that. And so, in some way, and then
that properly closed back to the soul holders, right?
Just acres in the end. Yeah, like not entirely, right?
Because you to be able to maximize that you would need to.
I think give a return to the users as well.
There's no person training. Yeah, there's some equilibrium
because they think so because the user always have it has a
choice. The trade on Salon or anywhere
else? Yeah, there's no there's never
like a monopoly. There's no boats, right?
So you're always going to be dealing with a user that has the
option to make that trade in Phantom, right?
Or they can actually give it up the axe.
I mean, of course, the other I think.
So, if you order maybe answer to that might also be just that,
well, you can certainly design a M&M's that are resistant to
that, right? So different degrees, right?
So I think to some extent of people do that then what people
I'll stop using that kind of a MM, right, that what?
I think they're actually going to be slower and have or spreads
compared to a competitive, a media Market.
Okay. So the latency is are going to
be worse because you're trying to like, basically stop
information from flowing as fast as possible to try to control,
which when events happened and force and ordering, or like
randomize stuff, right? And it's may be perceived as
more fair, but I think the Results as a slower, kind of a
slower system that's going to be more expensive.
Right? So your take is like, okay
should be exploited to the maximum and then return to the
user right to the to the stakeholders whoever right?
Just thinking I practically wonder how that actually Flows.
Back to, who to the user will like what?
I imagined but none of this works yet.
Is that the wallet itself? Right?
You can have a button that says weight.
Exercise. Back s to get wide white
Kickback for your trade. Yeah.
And maybe always say fastest,
right? Like there is like get fastest,
cheapest, whatever, slowest gas via and how much he pay right?
In this case. It's how much you want back,
right? So wall.
Okay, basically say okay, we are going to kind of like, you know,
tell the transaction, right and then Mev is taken from that.
And then some of that goes back to the to the wallet.
And then they can distribute that to the users.
Yeah, I think it's going to be very interesting to see all of
this. Yeah.
So many pieces there. It's such a yeah, that is like a
whole financial system just for trading pictures of dogs.
Eggs, the entire world's Financial system is going to sit
on top of a collection of a monkey and if the East.
Yeah, yeah, but that anyways, kind of the amazing thing know
about like what's kind of happening and I said that you
have to like speculative markets or any other things and people
like optimize things, you know to to make it more efficient,
make more money or something like that.
And then I think it drives forward all of the Alone, yeah.
So this is where, like, you know, we do the really hard
stuff make this as close to physics as possible.
Then all the stuff becomes more efficient and more value, can be
returned to the world. And this has kind of been my, my
main focus and my biggest gripe with the city of ultrasound
money is that, that Meme is not. It is not maximizing.
The amount of value return to the users.
It's Minimizing the value extraction.
Like these networks metallics idea was that this is a public
good. Right?
Right. This is a public open to the
world's like infrastructure. It should be minimally
extractive, right? It should minimize the amount of
value takes. So to be asked close to the
physics, the, you know, maximum capacity, cheapest cost ya.
Another nothing else matters though.
Those other me. Memes doesn't matter if it's
ultrasound, you know, money or not or it's or value.
It's like this, it actually generating like positive.
That's some good for the world. And is it taking the least
amount of value to do so? Yeah.
I mean, it is interesting.
You know, how there has been, I think a sort of shift in a
theorem narrative where it was either was photo of gas, right?
In the beginning - it's okay. It's just the paper transaction.
It's right. And then I think there's
definitely has been a sort of shift towards even even the CIP
1559, right? It's like burning the fees with
people are willing to pay for that now that I think they were
doing it for so long that maybe the mindset of shifted that it's
acceptable, like in my mind is an engineered like I know this
is wrong. This is wrong.
You gotta like throw it all the way if that's what it's gonna
die. I mean today, right determines
just unusable. Right?
I mean this is crazy that you have like hundreds of dollars of
you have to pay for the transaction.
Right? So that's actually becomes kind
of what Bitcoin actually even bighorn sheep or not, but they
couldn't stand it because I'm pretty easily now, but I think
always one of the ways that Bitcoin is were sort of feeling
we've okay. The system's really not scaling
and clearly not going to scale. Unless like you radically change
something was like okay, but then becomes this kind of
settlement layer and Bitcoin transactions can be very
expensive and you have like, layer 2 and things and everyone
can kind of hold Bitcoin even if they don't directly do so.
And now, I feel like it's or girl, you is like, at least
some, something you can look at it and be like, okay, I really
care about how long it takes for my transaction to settle.
Yeah, right. As long as with its sound like
two weeks, if that's right. So within two weeks, I could
find a cheap enough time to do so.
So if somebody your faults on like Roll-Ups and the kind of
the theorem scaling Direction, they're not as they don't.
So they don't optimize the censorship resistance piece,
right? They actually just reduced a
batch stuff. So there's some batching
optimizations. So they may reduce some cost to
users. But the majority of those costs
are simply because evm is too inefficient to execute, right?
So you if you get rid of Evo, Execution, that's what
effectively a rollup does. Right?
Is it delays executing a VM until like, you need to run a
fraud proof, but if you don't use the VM use like BPF x86.
Any other like efficient virtual machine, not a there's no real
savings there. So you say it doesn't reduce
censorship resistance because it doesn't maximize for censorship
resistance because it only optimizes.
This one thing that's extremely slow.
Whoa, but you don't need to go anyway, and if you, let's say
you reduce fees to users but you still have the settlement layer
that extremely expensive to use. So laughing.
Let's say that thing is generating 80 billion dollars a
day in revenue is that is it providing censorship.
Resistive to centralization at the cost of 80 billion dollars a
day? No, it's not.
If you look at up all the costs of running over the theory of
no, don't know that of all the nodes and how it sliced, right?
In terms of censorship resistance, like real time.
It's a think, like 4000 X off, you mean that the fees collected
right by a much higher than costs are also.
So, it is not a minimally extractive public, good, right?
It just a thing that is has, like, captive Market.
It's for the services as providing and it's actually kind
of like squeezing. Yeah, you could, you know,
reduce some of those costs to users and even if you can, that
allows you to increase the number of users that will use
the system, but it's still not a efficient system for the value.
It's creating for the world. Yeah.
No, I think that's true. Right.
I think there's obviously like he's an extent where you okay,
you have to secure me because system and there's a lot of
interoperability other things there.
So there's A lot of like value to like being in that ecosystem,
and then, but at the moment, it's sort of like, okay?
Because this is capacity constrained and just kind of
everything that its tracks extracts.
The Valley can to the aquarium values of the cryptography.
Yeah, and it's the kids of the users and a user that is holding
a bat token, that now holds it from Seok-ki 256k one key and
Madame Masque and AT&T 55:19 key in fandom for the same token.
It is still part of that bat community.
That likes Brave. Yeah, so that just will be, do
got that. So kid, what's reward will
write? There's some risk there to use a
bridge always, but you can analyze that risk in minimize
it. The know you've reduced
significantly reduce fees and now you can cut it.
Minimizing the On a value that the network itself, extracts,
from that Community. Do you think it's essential, or
do you think? Yeah, I wanted to warrick's and
is it just, it's just a crucial thing that you sort of stay a,
that sort of the, the network throughput of the capacity of
the network stays ahead of the actual load.
But I like it. Yeah.
Big enough actor. Yeah, because you're like, kind
of like Costco up when there's a cab.
Burst really like most things like what any kind of web scale
system, you're paying usually for the worst case because you
have like a rush, right? And you don't want to be able to
handle it. So, just like in those systems,
are typically going to have to be way over capacity to handle
extremely high Spike. And when you get that Spike
persistently, that's what these need to go up to force.
Whatever's, effectively spamming the not want to back off.
Yeah. Well, let's talk a bit about
sort of you know, we are still at you.
You're saying before right? I think okay, you're saying
maybe 300 million accounts for up there goes for mobile holders
Boulder. So like pets.com stockholder.
Yeah 300 million. Actually, there's a fat stack of
you know, three. Yeah.
So where do you think we are in terms of like mainstream as
option? You think we are going to see
The kind of like web to Applications.
Yeah. Well like what timeframe do you
think those are? If it's next year we're looking
at like Phantom adding a billion users of a month that would feel
like it seems real right? That would that seems possible.
Yeah, even a million a week. It's like seems possible, but
that would be like, oh bad the weird.
This is it we've had real. All that option.
Yeah, that's kind of like, I don't know when that happens
could be next year. It could be two or three years
from. Oh, it's hard to say.
Yeah. Yeah and next year feels just as
likely as two years or three years.
I mean probably a lot depends on the market right?
Because they do things. Go up then interest just goes up
so much. I guess, it's two things, maybe
right. Like, I think the crypto Mark is
like huge. Tractor.
Yeah, it's just dry so much interest and then maybe another
thing is like, okay people are actually putting out
applications that are just really great and there are
unique because they leverage crypto and then people just want
to use the application. They don't care about the market
and the prices and then they kind of switched out way.
So, what we see though, I guess it's different in the this cycle
is that you're not investing in ideas or white papers?
It's and like actual products. You almost don't even.
I haven't read it. Anyway.
Papers a lot in like the last six months.
It's like, give me the MVP that works for the kind of look at
it. The design, the UI X and sure.
There's like some Innovation around the risk engine or the
thing that the, you know, the new fancy D5 Market or whatever,
right? And I almost don't care.
That part is like not as important as this.
There's like good you oxide. If you feels like Humans are
going to use it. Yeah, so the thing that makes me
sort of like Paul's a little bit here is because I remember, you
know, in 2013 there was this bull market and then we have
2017-18 the school market and personally like in each of those
Pascal Marcus. I was pretty convinced that like
it did but it's like mainstream adoption is coming right?
Because it's obvious that this is like but any be superior in
so many ways and that Understand that they're like adopted.
And why would that ever stopped? Right?
Like, why would they stop until it's actually like there and
then, of course, kind of did in both times, so I'm wondering, is
it? Is it the same now?
Is it also like, okay. We haven't we in this bubble
have this idea because because it's obviously in the end it's
going to happen right? In the end.
You know, it's all going to be on crypto and like so the only
one. I don't know.
I think it's too long. Yeah.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of scary. So you can get it's like full.
It's not gonna like, be easy because you still need to build
applications. You need to like, iterate on the
parts, where your chest drop off that users, like lose interest.
Yeah, right. I need to build really good
applications. People want to use that.
Have some some true like reason to be cryptographic right to
have cryptography. Yeah.
Not just like we stuck crypto inside.
You do Facebook. Yeah, like it has to like
actually have meaningful reason, right?
And that's that's what I think is starts saying?
Yeah. Yeah, and I think, if you think,
if you look at, you know, what happened in these past bear
markets, but you had you had a big crash in price and you also
had the crash. And I mean, one was like,
confidence in the thing, right? There was many people.
Who are like, we think is going to happen, and it was like, oh,
I guess it's not going to happen after all.
So I think there was that and then I think there was also like
a decrease in activity, right? Because like, funding dried
activity, dried up and bunch of people and elsewhere.
A lot of funds just died. Yeah, those funds company side,
right? So I guess I mean, obviously the
volatility is here and here to stay at least for a while,
right? So, I think we're going to see
the big crashes, but I guess the question is, does that actually
Without anything or is it still going to be that?
Like in terms of, you know, people building applications and
usage? And because right now, there's
so much Capital here, right? So there was like a run right
from 93 12 2001 on the internet. Yeah, and this is where I think
we'll this is the one going to be eight years of craziness and
then and then, right exuberance and them.
So where do you think we are on this 93 to to that?
Well, if it's three, if it's three billion users that, it's
Like, 93 94. Yeah.
Yeah.
This is wild. Yeah.
I don't know.
Anything else. I think a lot of your listeners
went through the bear market and we're building with us in the
trenches. I think that's what actually
will get, you will cause some the supercycle.
Yeah. Is the people building that have
been through the other ones that are Okay.
Well, this is fun. Right?
I'm actually seeing traction of like, yeah, I mean, that's
that's the other thing. I, you should hang back to
2017-18, right? They're still all of this
exuberance and there was a lot of things.
You feel like this is like too much exuberant.
Yeah, and now there's like there's definitely similarities,
right? You can definitely see a lot of
that stuff, too. But at the same time, right?
If you think of like the that, that transition to go from like
three million users to like, Three billion users.
Well, the he's going to be that exuberance, right?
Like that is just going to be a part of it.
It doesn't mean it's like a bubble that's going to end with
rise of X. Yeah, but actually is not a lot.
Look at how fast part folds like, Grew From nothing.
To delete the users. It took about a year, but look
like a look baby, too. Cool.
Well, thanks so much Anatoly. It was young, great catching up.
And yeah, I mean, I'm excited to like continue on this like weird
crypto and Salon in particular, likewise.
Yeah, it's alright. Thanks so much.
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