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Hello and welcome to episode of 
the podcast where we interview 

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crypto pound is still, is Fault 
leaders about the future of the 

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crypto Revolution. 
My name is Brian crane. 

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Today. 
We have a very special episode. 

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So I was speaking with Anatoly 
yaakov. 

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Anchor, the under and CEO Salon 
elapsed about Solano. 

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So of course Alana has had an 
absolutely phenomenal, you know 

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phenomenal growth, this year has
gone up, tremendously market, 

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cap and activity. 
And we recorded this episode at 

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the very first big Solana 
conference break point, which 

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took place in listening that was
over two thousand people there. 

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And it was really very vibrant 
event. 

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So I'm excited about that 
conversation, and I'm sure Enjoy

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as well. 
Now, before we go to the 

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conversation with Anatoly. 
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And now if that lets go to our 

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conversation with Anatoly. 
Welcome to episode our podcast 

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for every interview, you know, 
curb the founders and talk 

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about, you know, the future of 
decentralized technology. 

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So this is episode 418 and I'm 
here today with Anatolia. 

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Palenko is the founder and CEO 
Solana. 

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Yeah. 
So welcoming and totally awesome

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to be here. 
Yeah, so we done an episode 

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before here, right? 
So this was like, 2019, pretty 

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early on. 
You had there was a It blog 

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post, where you guys outline 
sort of the seven. 

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I think it was 7. 
U8 8 was a but one got dropped. 

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Archiver's right? 
Yeah, but yeah, it's basically 

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like, okay. 
These are like this 

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technological breakthrough or 
innovations that like Salon has 

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a song. 
Of course that was like early 

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on. 
And now, here we are today at 

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the Islamic conference, right 
Point. 

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Listen. 
Last day. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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So yeah, how is has to 
compensate for you? 

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It was great. 
Yeah, it was a really 

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unexpected. 
How many people were going to 

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show up in how much energy they 
were going to bring was Ben's is

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a wonderful City. 
So it's kind of easy to put on a

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good show here. 
It's just a really nice place, 

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but just really cool to see all 
the people that you don't know 

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if their boss or not online, 
right? 

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But you know, there's people 
right? 

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People that love to code love to
build stuff. 

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Just amazing. 
Oh, for you or what. 

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Do you feel like, Mesa Solana 
Community? 

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What's it? 
Like, it's this idea that we're 

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ready to eat glass. 
I think kind of started 

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permeated through this and the 
list goes back to like the 

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validator days when I was 
talking to you guys in like, you

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know, start us and all the other
ones that the problem was that, 

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like, hey, we need you to go. 
Go to a Data Center and put 

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boxes up and everyone said it's 
too hard except for the for the 

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few. 
Yeah. 

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No, I think that's definitely 
true rights because I guess, 

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Tommy, and of course, our 
listeners, right will be well 

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for we're aware of Solana this 
point, right? 

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At least on the high level. 
You know, I think Lana is at a 

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known by the six or something 
like that for mature but like 

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somewhere someone very high up. 
Yeah. 

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I don't think about it and with 
Let's just step back a little 

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bit and sort of start at the 
beginning. 

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Like what was the original 
vision for you for Solana? 

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So I'm like an operating system 
geek. 

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I worked on Brew. 
I worked an Android and the 

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Linux kernel, that's what that 
was. 

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Like the first interesting 
problem that I thought. 

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This is cool. 
In fact, I don't know why I 

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thought it was cool. 
It's kind of like a boring 

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thing, right? 
You have hardware and you're 

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just riding a little shim on top
to abstract the hardware to make

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it. 
It easy for doves, but you're 

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just so many concentrate offs 
that you're dealing with that. 

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It's kind of a nerds night right
at the rabbit hole. 

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How do you build the fastest 
possible system call? 

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And things like that become kind
of interesting challenges. 

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So when I started salana, you 
know, I called a bunch of my 

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friends from Qualcomm was like, 
okay. 

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This is a new operating system 
and you platform just going to 

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the application to do. 
They look like but there's stuff

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running any theory of we think 
that's like it was super early 

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days with 2017 2018. 
Just there was an idea of a 

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smart contracts but throwing if 
T's yet while it's barely works.

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And yeah, it was just this kind 
of, you know, let's build 

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another OS but now with a 
different set of challenges And 

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so maybe talk a little bit about
this idea of like Solana as an 

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operating system. 
Yeah, the thing that got me 

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excited that I thought that I 
could make a difference was 

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that? 
I never thought sharding was a 

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viable option. 
So again, I the reason the 

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design is the way it is because 
it's what I'm good at. 

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But it also think that it's the 
best designed All Things 

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Considered. 
And the if you don't have 

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sharding, Have one constraint 
environment, like there's only 

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one of these computers then 
you're dealing with effectively 

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and embedded system. 
And that's where you have 

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constrained hardware and I'm 
good at finding those, you know 

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local minimums where you can 
squeeze the most performance out

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of the out of a fixed set of you
know, you know, memory silicon 

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course, whatever. 
So once you, once you constrain 

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it to like you only have this 
much that's all you're going to 

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get. 
How do you squeeze? 

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Something out. 
That's, that's kind of the 

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problem. 
But I'm gonna and that was to 

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me, kind of a challenge. 
So the design and everything 

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else that followed really try to
optimize for. 

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Let's build the fastest possible
to us given the hardware, is it 

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is today and where it's going, 
which was then still is Cuda 

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cores. 
Single instruction multiple 

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data, these massively parallel, 
you know, systems where you 

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have, you know, kind of a And 
like, you know, programming a 

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GPU, or a vix is different than 
writing a bunch of code that 

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does whatever it wants. 
It's your, you already dealing 

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with a little box, you know. 
Yeah. 

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So how do you, how do you make 
that little box? 

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The fundamental core part of the
platform that developers Target,

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right? 
Because I think that was, you 

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know, I was always where Salon 
was kind of unique, right, where

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you have all of the other 
projects, you know from like 

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etherium near you know, many 
others were Were all focused on 

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on. 
Somehow. 

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Okay, we have this one 
blockchain now, it's getting 

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full because it like paralyzed 
it or like, you know, we've got 

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it started and then we have the 
system. 

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That's how it scales. 
Right? 

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And you went the other way. 
I think still salute. 

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The reason for that was I looked
at the data sheet of, you know, 

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computers at the time and just 
Google and the internet. 

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Like a, what, how much, how fast
can you do a signature 

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verification? 
How much of those? 

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You doing a GPU, how fast can 
you move memory from the network

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card, to the GPU to do these 
operations? 

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And they just kind of like laid 
it out and it looked like that 

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with Hardware, you know, 2017, 
2018, not super expensive 

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Hardware. 
Just off the shelf stuff that 

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you could find, you know, at 
Fry's or Amazon, you could get 

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to. 
You could saturate, 1 GB, which 

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was roughly some 100,000 TPS or 
500,000 TPS. 

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Yes, if the messages are 256, 
bytes, so can you can you build 

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software that like, gets out of 
the way, the hardware, so you 

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can actually take in them. 
Any messages figure out where 

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the signatures are move, all the
data to the GPU, run, all the 

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signature verification go, 
fetch. 

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All the contracts State, go 
figure out which programs you 

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want to call execute employee 
dump the state, transitions back

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into, you know, whatever disk or
storage in theory on the data 

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sheet. 
You can do that. 

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Practice. 
It's really really hard because 

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the operating system you're 
running on, will it has a 

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scheduler and it decides when 
stuff goes you have like Cassius

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that are not uniform, you take a
lock on one thing and it stalls 

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like a thousand other things and
that it becomes that's the that 

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kind of like meat and potatoes 
problem. 

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We're just looking at Griffon do
metrics and benchmarks and heat 

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Maps. 
That's that was my bread and 

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butter. 
For decades, so that's where I 

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thought that I could have an 
edge. 

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And so if you don't get it 
today, what are the bottlenecks?

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It is? 
Like if you take a modern 

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system, think you guys run some 
benchmarks, but there's other 

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validators like buzzer and like 
a bunch of folks in the 

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community that they just spin 
up, whatever the latest and 

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greatest that can get and on 
Modern like epics with, you 

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know, I think 128 course or Plus
without going to gpus you can 

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break 200,000 TPS. 
In a single system. 

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So that's just this runtime, 
fetch a transaction from a Linux

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kernel DDP, buffer, do signature
verification, go find some state

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to a change in that state and 
write it back. 

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But all the states are 
parallelizable. 

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The never touch each other. 
So in the most kind of trivial, 

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you know, slip, one bit 
Unchained right flip as many 

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bits in parallel, as you can 
atomically, you can scale it up 

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without going to jail. 
We use to about 200,000 it maybe

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the gpus maybe 250 because the 
bottleneck is no longer 

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signature verification. 
Its memory, not work cards. 

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I/O latency, you're dealing with
very small packets, which is a 

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huge pain in the butt. 
However, doesn't like small 

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things that likes. 
Give me one giant chunk of 

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stuff. 
So when we outline those eight 

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problem, eight Solutions, it was
really like 88 challenges is. 

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These are the things that we 
think we need. 

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To solve and this is how we 
think is the best best bet to 

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solve them. 
And, you know, the one that we 

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dropped was the kind of the 
least important one. 

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In a way around, it was storing 
the entire history of The Ledger

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00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,400
because of Esau filed coined and
are we even a bunch of other 

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folks solve the problem and you 
now have robust networks that 

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can do, persistent storage 
forever of history and Doug, how

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00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,000
far you think this? 
It won't? 

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00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,800
Take this, like, do you think 
Solana will be capable of like, 

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you know, handling sort of? 
Yeah, all the crypto blockchain 

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activity. 
That people wanna win create 

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like, link load rate, which 
means that as fast as packets 

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arrive to the network card 
before the next one arrives. 

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00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,200
You can already handle the full,
the full loop. 

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00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:27,500
I think it's doable. 
Honestly, I think it's scalable 

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to whatever the bandwidth. 
You can connect rights if you 

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have enough. 
If the latest and greatest band 

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width is 20 GB, you can go to 
fpgas, go to Hardware, like 

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start doing this directly on the
back and the neck. 

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I think it's doable, but that 
requires can have a huge 

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investment and both in terms of 
financially because you need to 

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hire a bunch of Engineers. 
You need to contract out with 

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like, you know, the fox comes of
the world. 

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You'll need to build the 
reference platform. 

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That's like kind of going. 
Yeah, the Solana signature. 

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00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,200
A box. 
So that means also like 

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00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,300
validators running like very 
different setups, very different

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hardware and it would be. 
Yeah. 

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This is kind of going to the, 
what I think will probably be 

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00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,200
the eventual future of the 
stuff. 

229
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,800
If there is such a thing as 
Global price discovery engine, 

230
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,100
like what is blockchain for? 
I think it's for running 

231
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:27,000
markets, right? 
And tracking ownership, but 

232
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,800
tracking ownership is 
settlement, right? 

233
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,900
And settlements part of running 
a market. 

234
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,700
So if you have one giant Global,
you know, State machines running

235
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:40,000
all of the world's markets for, 
you know, from nft. 

236
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,300
He's inside star Atlas to, you 
know, BCC USD tea or whatever 

237
00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:47,500
the most liquid Perez, every 
every Market in the world, all 

238
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:50,600
of the same thing. 
It's really feels like it should

239
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,700
be optimized to whatever the 
physics allow. 

240
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,400
Do you think there are there 
mechanisms that will or like, 

241
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,100
you know, what do you think will
drive in a way, right? 

242
00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:03,900
For this, kind of progression to
happen? 

243
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:05,300
Right? 
Well, you what you would also 

244
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:08,200
want to set like the different 
validate is people running 

245
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,500
validators, have like an 
economic incentive to do that. 

246
00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:12,700
Right? 
They know in a way like, okay, 

247
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:16,700
if someone increases their 
capacity, like, you know, they 

248
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:18,400
can automatically benefit from 
that. 

249
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,000
That is the tragedy of the 
commons problem. 

250
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,300
Right? 
I honestly think it's over 

251
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:27,000
state. 
Just being here right at this 

252
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000
conference and the people you 
need that's the vast super 

253
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,100
majority of the validators and 
they just want to like they want

254
00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:38,100
to see the whole thing succeed. 
But the number of people taking 

255
00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:42,700
advantage of the tragedy of 
Commons problem in a open 

256
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:46,700
decentralized network in an open
source Community, right? 

257
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:50,700
It's like the people that you 
know, complain about the Linux 

258
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,700
box, but never never try to fix 
them or number try to help the 

259
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:56,000
deputy volume. 
No, it's a small number. 

260
00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:58,500
Just get the keys, get to filter
it out. 

261
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:02,800
It's like why would you be doing
this? 

262
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,200
Right? 
There's less plenty of other 

263
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,400
ways to make money like you're 
doing this because you have some

264
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,900
passion, something that is like,
okay. 

265
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:12,900
We're going to decentralize the 
world. 

266
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:14,500
Yeah. 
Sure. 

267
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,300
I agree with that right before. 
Now. 

268
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,800
We're not kill. 
You will need to like put a lot 

269
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,200
of investment into that, right 
for sure, but it's not like too 

270
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,800
hard, right? 
It's just You know the opening 

271
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,600
ceremony and talked about the 
centralization, the importance 

272
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,700
of the behavior change to 
maximize censorship resistance. 

273
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:37,000
Not a technology problem. 
It's a really like a community 

274
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,100
like needs to be aware that it's
important. 

275
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,900
Yeah, you mentioned a lot, the 
idea of censorship resistance. 

276
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:46,200
I'm curious. 
Like, what kind of censorship 

277
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,000
are you most afraid? 
All? 

278
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,700
It's actually not that I'm most 
afraid of. 

279
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:52,100
It's the one that I want to 
that. 

280
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,100
I feel like will provide the 
most benefit. 

281
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,300
So like Bitcoin, right? 
Is censorship resistant, but it 

282
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:02,900
doesn't guarantee one and that 
is actually true about any 

283
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:09,000
system any BFD system, right? 
You send a message Solana like 

284
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,500
goes into Fork death because 
there's a denial service and bgp

285
00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:16,200
router is get screwed up and the
network can come to finality, 

286
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,100
right? 
Is the network censorship 

287
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:20,700
resistant or is it being 
censored? 

288
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,200
Well, it's in 24 hours, the 
validators figure out how to 

289
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,500
reroute Around that failure and 
continue right from the last 

290
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:32,400
point of finality. 
And then your message gets 

291
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:38,000
accepted, then they got accepted
just within 24 hours and not 400

292
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,200
milliseconds. 
So, the network is no matter 

293
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,400
what censorship resistant as 
long as there's at least one 

294
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,300
validator, that's out there 
without a valid copy of The 

295
00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:48,700
Ledger that they can tell 
everybody. 

296
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:51,100
Hey, look, this is the right. 
This is the valid copy. 

297
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:54,200
You can all run your tools 
locally to verify it, everybody.

298
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,600
And this thing, right? 
So in that sense, if you don't 

299
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,200
put a time constraint on it, 
it's censorship resistant, but 

300
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,500
what people want for the benefit
of actually using the stuff in 

301
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:10,700
practice, is they want those 
guarantees within the very small

302
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,700
amount of time. 
Because when I like click a 

303
00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:17,000
button, you know an audience 
that says I like the song, I 

304
00:17:17,008 --> 00:17:21,500
don't want to wait 24 hours. 
I don't want to pay an arbitrary

305
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,800
amounts. 
I don't want to pay an Good 

306
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,400
amount of money to get that 
thing, except it, right. 

307
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,000
I want to pay a very small 
amount of money and have that be

308
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,800
confirmed in a very short amount
of time. 

309
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,600
So when you constraint that, 
then it becomes an embedded 

310
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,900
systems problem, which is right.
Yeah, it's fun. 

311
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,200
Yeah. 
I know, of course that 

312
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,400
definitely says like, of course,
yeah, you want to I want to be 

313
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,100
able to send a transaction when 
he confirmed like, you know, 

314
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,300
pretty much as fast as a cat 
possible cheap, you know, I 

315
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:54,400
think Salon actually does that 
today, does he well, but that 

316
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,800
Doesn't, but censorship is, I 
mean, I guess what content 

317
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,600
should be, right. 
I mean, of course he could have 

318
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,400
like, maybe government's trying 
to kind of like Crackdown on 

319
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,700
blockchain networks. 
And like, so, as long as you 

320
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:08,900
write long as there's one 
copyright, right? 

321
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,400
This is why when you look at, 
like, the validators app, Brian,

322
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,200
and all these other folks, 
they're like, okay. 

323
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,200
Well, what are the data centers?
What are the essence? 

324
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,600
Let's map this out. 
And that's track where steak 

325
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,700
Woods concentrated, then, let's 
go talk to those people and get 

326
00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:26,500
them to decentralize it more. 
And you see the process, rather 

327
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:29,200
the community and people are 
like, it. 

328
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,200
Given the information, 
everybody's making like the 

329
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,300
right decision and they're like,
okay, my notes are all in 

330
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:36,900
Hefner. 
Let's move about. 

331
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,800
All we have to do is just tell 
people. 

332
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,700
Hey, look, there's too many 
nodes and hats there. 

333
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,700
Yeah. 
It's a, it could like cause the 

334
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:47,300
network to stall, right? 
If Esther has a fire, right? 

335
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:48,700
And people just did it on the 
right. 

336
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:51,800
I agree with that, right? 
So, of course, there's 

337
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,400
definitely like a risk right 
around like Geographic. 

338
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:58,200
Concentration of nodes, or maybe
if you have like a few violators

339
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,500
that have like, you know, a very
large amount of steak and then 

340
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:05,200
like, maybe there's some sort of
although even there. 

341
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,200
Right. 
You have today. 

342
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,900
I think 19 violators or I better
like this super minority. 

343
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:13,500
So, but like, I'm the censorship
ring feels like a different to 

344
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,100
that is my strategy. 
So, to me that it's the same 

345
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:18,800
question because you're kind of 
looking at the Nakamoto 

346
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,800
coefficient, you take some 
parameter data centers or a 

347
00:19:22,808 --> 00:19:28,400
Essence and then you Are 
assigning given whatever. 

348
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,800
It is Data Centers, s ends, you 
know, Geographic, like, you 

349
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,300
know, jurisdictions, where is 
the concentration of steak and 

350
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,900
own and then you identify that 
bottleneck, that's above 

351
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,300
whatever threshold. 
You don't like 33 percent or 15 

352
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,400
or 5 percent. 
And then you go talk to those 

353
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,500
people like, hey, look this, 
this is like a worrisome thing. 

354
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:53,500
Can you guys move your nodes and
people do it? 

355
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:57,300
That's the cool part. 
Art, but that that again the 

356
00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:00,900
reason why you want to do that 
is because that has impact on 

357
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:02,900
real time since it's your 
persistence. 

358
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:06,000
Like I don't want to, I don't 
want to have this like guarantee

359
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,800
that if if I send a message and 
that's the thing that fails, 

360
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,100
right? 
The Amazon ASN goes down. 

361
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:18,900
He said now I have to wait, 
maybe 24 hours before that 

362
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:21,300
message, accept it. 
What I want is when I send a 

363
00:20:21,308 --> 00:20:25,900
message within 400 milliseconds 
and for Fraction of assert that 

364
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:28,700
always gets accepted. 
Yeah, I mean to me that feels 

365
00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,500
like sort of around the 
resilience of the network right 

366
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,300
at all. 
Let's just say big, right? 

367
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:38,700
It's just like you start going 
to objectively measurable 

368
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:41,600
parameters. 
What is what can we? 

369
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,200
What's objectively? 
Measurable like any one of those

370
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,000
things you can then decide, this
is what we're looking at. 

371
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,800
We think the failure rate is ax,
then we need to go and make sure

372
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,300
that there's at least You know, 
why number of these things 

373
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,300
before the network has to go 
through this like recovery 

374
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:01,600
procedure. 
What do you think are the 

375
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,100
biggest challenges ahead? 
Listen, all. 

376
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,500
I mean, realistically the going 
to likely decline rates being 

377
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,400
unbounded by the software, right
by the implementation. 

378
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,600
It's a really hard problem. 
It's like a really hard 

379
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,300
engineering problem. 
So that that's kind of the 

380
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:22,600
biggest challenge. 
It seems like the salon is fast.

381
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,400
Right, right. 
You can fast but there's 300 

382
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,900
million, cryptocurrency holders 
out there. 

383
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,500
That's the latest number I saw 
when we actually talk to the 

384
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:37,900
folks doing analysis of, how 
many of those do stuff and all 

385
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:41,400
the chains combined. 
It's like maybe 34 million of 

386
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,400
Oaths. 
Yeah, actually people individual

387
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,200
humans signing stuff. 
It's a very small number. 

388
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,800
There's a lot of like, you know,
people are being you know, A 

389
00:21:53,808 --> 00:21:55,800
swap, or whatever, markets and 
etherium. 

390
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,900
But those are mostly Bots and 
it's not 10 million people. 

391
00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:03,700
It's a very small number of 
people generating like, half a 

392
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,100
billion. 
Whatever, the months per day. 

393
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:11,900
Yeah, you know, definitely I 
think so. 

394
00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:14,600
Yeah. 
The real challenges are like the

395
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:16,600
engineering Woods, everything 
else. 

396
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,000
I feel like is the It's like the
minute. 

397
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,000
Every if you do that, right, 
like everyone else in the 

398
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,200
community will solve all the 
other problems. 

399
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,500
It's just, that's the, that's 
the challenge that you can't fix

400
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:35,100
over a weekend. 
Sorry. 

401
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:40,300
Yeah, like dealing with the fact
that our developer tooling 

402
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:44,700
requires you to buy hand pack 
and unpack data structures 

403
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:47,300
developer can do, you know, 
figure out how to write a 

404
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:50,000
library for that over? 
Spend a week or two and 

405
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,900
everybody did, right? 
So that's not a problem that we 

406
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,800
actually need to solve the hard 
one. 

407
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,400
Is, if it takes two years to 
design Hardware, that can 

408
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,900
actually handle and bound. 
It bandwidth like go up to 20 GB

409
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,200
and we really believe that 
that's what the world needs 

410
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,200
right for the world to be fully 
decentralized. 

411
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,300
And that's the thing that that's
the biggest challenge that we 

412
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:13,900
need to tackle. 
Yeah. 

413
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:17,800
One thing I'm also curious about
because I feel like I said, it's

414
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,900
a topic that's like, Discussed a
lot in some other kind of crypto

415
00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,300
communities and I think it's 
like less. 

416
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:28,100
So in Solana is like the topic 
of governance and curious. 

417
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:32,300
Like what do you how do you 
think Solana governance should 

418
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:35,200
work. 
I mean maybe today but also in 

419
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,600
the long term. 
Yeah, like I think I'm like a I 

420
00:23:40,608 --> 00:23:45,600
think it should have like a very
clear constraint mission that 

421
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,300
makes sense. 
And then the only thing that the

422
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:51,500
governance is doing is hey, are 
you executing in this Mission? 

423
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,700
Or not? 
Like it's more just like a 

424
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,800
backstab back. 
Check on the on the work that's 

425
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:03,700
being done in like because if 
you have a Like it's almost like

426
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:07,300
a constitutional dictatorship or
whatever, right? 

427
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,200
You gotta like you gotta take 
what you're going to do, right? 

428
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,500
And that's that's the thing. 
That's the most important and 

429
00:24:16,508 --> 00:24:20,600
then you invested it over a long
period of time and it's not open

430
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,600
to question. 
Like whether you change the 

431
00:24:22,608 --> 00:24:23,700
mission? 
It's that. 

432
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:26,400
Are you like screwing up an 
execution or not? 

433
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:32,500
The making that big bat is the 
is the hard part and the bad? 

434
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:36,500
Everyone is making a think 
internally at Labs the 

435
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:39,800
foundation and for the vast 
majority, I think basically 

436
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,200
everyone that I've ever talked 
to is that that real-time 

437
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,200
censorship resistance piece. 
That's an important thing and we

438
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,300
should we should basically do 
whatever we can to maximize it. 

439
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,200
Okay, but then like let's say 
they are like different 

440
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:58,500
interpretations of invasion. 
Yes difference. 

441
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,800
Is that arise? 
Like you feel like soup like 

442
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,500
inflation was A great example. 
Yeah, what is the optimal rate 

443
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:10,600
for inflation? 
Nobody knows right ahead and 

444
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,800
does it impact censorship 
resistance. 

445
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,300
Well, if you don't have it it 
does. 

446
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:16,000
If you have too much of it, it 
does. 

447
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,500
But that's again like a very 
wide decision thing. 

448
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,600
Yeah. 
And within the community, there 

449
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,800
was a proposal process everybody
that wanted to submitted a PR 

450
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,900
but said it should be axed. 
They tried to defend their 

451
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:32,500
reasoning for it. 
There were people out. 

452
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,900
Wanted to not have inflation at 
all. 

453
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,700
Is a forum post to this. 
And then there was a validator 

454
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,700
effectively vote and that's 
where it got rice. 

455
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,400
So that kind of like, how do we 
pick a parameter? 

456
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,900
Right? 
Like that's that feels like 

457
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:51,300
again like a sting that you can 
ask the community and have it 

458
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:56,600
figure it out, go through that 
process, but you feel like there

459
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,400
will be a need at some point for
like sort of explicit on chain 

460
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,300
governance system or Or like you
prefer that kind of thing to 

461
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:06,800
happen. 
Well, it means validators are 

462
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,900
always in explicit on shared 
governance. 

463
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,700
So them to take an upgrade for 
them to sign a feature of a 

464
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:17,900
feature upgrade, right? 
Is explicit thing because 

465
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:20,800
they're signing those messages 
with their validator keys. 

466
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:22,500
Sure. 
That's true. 

467
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:24,000
Yeah. 
Now, of course, valid is have 

468
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,500
that role of upgrades. 
That's true. 

469
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,700
Yeah, so, but like for later, 
one, that is the layer where 

470
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,200
anything important with regards 
to governance. 

471
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:34,200
This is that the validator 
stuff. 

472
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,600
Hmm. 
I don't think you can escape it.

473
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,500
Yeah, I don't think you can like
push it up. 

474
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:41,800
I mean that's interesting. 
The cosmos going to dip that in 

475
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,200
there so I can pass through 
mechanism to the stakeholders. 

476
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,800
Yeah, you can of course. 
You can never Escape that, 

477
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,100
right. 
That's always there. 

478
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:51,400
I mean, that's true. 
Right. 

479
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,100
I mean, I guess maybe tazewell's
was the one that ruined like 

480
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,600
first sort of trying to do that 
right with these automated 

481
00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:01,300
upgrades skill, but I like about
apron always Focus offer you 

482
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:05,300
like run something different. 
So to me, it always felt like 

483
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:09,300
that's the heartbeat, the 
validator community. 

484
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,700
Those are the people actually 
running it that the most 

485
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:16,200
understanding of the day-to-day,
and that's almost like, you got 

486
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,600
to convince them to do anything.
If you fail to convince them, 

487
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,300
you're doing something wrong, 
right? 

488
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,500
And you can talk with these 
about well, curious about any 

489
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:32,400
like, what. 
So this is becoming a big top. 

490
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,100
They hear him. 
I guess, most importantly, where

491
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,200
and maybe for listening to in 
like, not too familiar with it. 

492
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,100
Basically, it was around the 
ability of miners to, like, 

493
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,500
decide on the order of 
transactions. 

494
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,500
And then there's like economic 
value that like, for example, 

495
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:54,300
there's an Arbitrage opportunity
and then someone can can, you 

496
00:27:54,308 --> 00:27:57,000
know, kind of. 
So do the Arbitrage, make some 

497
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,500
money and then, of course, like,
if you can decide like, who puts

498
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,000
which transaction, Does that 
there's value in that? 

499
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,200
So so all those block, shaded, 
stech speed. 

500
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:11,700
And we never thought of a v v. 
I'm just kidding David. 

501
00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:16,900
So I always thought, that, that 
was actually the feature for, 

502
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:19,900
for blockchain. 
This is how they should work. 

503
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:22,700
They should have Mev. 
And if you come from that 

504
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:28,100
perspective, it means that you 
need to maximize the almost a 

505
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:31,100
market for it like, maximize the
competition format. 

506
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,100
So, how you do that is, you 
reduce the block times to a 

507
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:40,700
smallest amount possible. 
So we are 400 milliseconds, and 

508
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:43,000
you have a leader, scheduled 
four times in a row. 

509
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:47,300
So imagine it's 200 milliseconds
in the universe which and every 

510
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:50,100
block from one leader to the 
next. 

511
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,800
And so on is actually designed 
where you can have more than one

512
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,100
leader assigned to the same slot
producing the same block. 

513
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:00,900
If you look at the white paper, 
I don't know if people got it. 

514
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,400
There's this thing where you 
kind of mix, It's the things and

515
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,400
you can then tell the relative 
time of events as to be - wait 

516
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,300
they for I got it, but all the 
ideas are there. 

517
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,600
So if you have multiple block 
producers now and that's 200, 

518
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,500
milliseconds me as a traitor. 
I'm willing to wait, you know, 

519
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,000
two seconds. 
And I want to maximize the 

520
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,700
number of bids that I see from 
the validators. 

521
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:31,600
The real-time guarantees in 
Solana. 

522
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,500
Is that if I'm a Elevator. 
And I'm assigned slot ton that 

523
00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:39,000
I'm guaranteed to be able to 
transmit a block in slots. 

524
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,500
And and as long as no, more than
a third of the network is 

525
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,400
actively trying to censor me 
then because of how turbine 

526
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,700
works because for pastries is 
forced delay function. 

527
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:53,800
I'm have extremely high 
confidence. 

528
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,500
They'll be able to actually 
submit this block and have it 

529
00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:59,900
confirmed. 
So that means that I can then 

530
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:04,700
bid for this order to the user, 
that's willing to wait until my 

531
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:06,100
blog. 
Therefore. 

532
00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:08,200
I can give him the highest 
rebate out of all the other 

533
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,200
validators, right? 
So at this, like lowest layer by

534
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:17,100
minimizing the block time 
maximizing, how often we switch 

535
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:20,400
maximizing company block, 
producers work on a single block

536
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,400
together, right? 
We can actually create the 

537
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600
biggest fairest, most 
competitive market for a TV. 

538
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,200
And then you, then you have real
value creation. 

539
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Right? 
Because, what is what is Mev? 

540
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:38,300
It's actually, I'm observing all
the world's information, every 

541
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,500
exchange out their Twitter 
feeds, the cetera. 

542
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,500
I'm creating a model for what 
the future price of anything is 

543
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:49,700
going to be right. 
So I am doing value creation, 

544
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:51,600
right? 
In predicting, the future that 

545
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,400
I'm betting, you know, bidding 
for order flow. 

546
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,600
Hey, users and the best model 
predictor this. 

547
00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:00,300
What I think the fairest price 
is going to be right by the time

548
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,300
you submit your order. 
Give me your orders. 

549
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:04,200
I'll give you the biggest kick 
back. 

550
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:08,400
Yeah, so I definitely agree with
you right there, like, short 

551
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,600
block times. 
I mean, first of all, I guess, I

552
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,000
mean, he's obviously harder on 
Solana than when this area. 

553
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,300
I think that that's already in a
way. 

554
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:19,500
I think it has been reduced. 
That is Lana has kind of reduce 

555
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:24,900
the scope of it and maybe the 
issue around it, but it's it is 

556
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:29,300
value creation, if you can get 
it back to the Sir, yeah, 

557
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,000
because you are effectively 
trying to predict the future, 

558
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,900
right? 
Yeah, right. 

559
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:39,600
Yeah, and and yeah, I think in a
way you will see it feeding back

560
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,500
to users, right? 
Because I mean first of all, 

561
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:46,500
right, if validators make more 
money with that, then it's also 

562
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,200
something where they can reach 
out to say. 

563
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,300
Oh, like, you know, we got hard 
work, right? 

564
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,200
Yeah, let's reduce. 
He's exactly the news feeds. 

565
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,100
Right, exactly. 
Right. 

566
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:57,300
And maybe have any negative 
means, you know. 

567
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,400
Which is what I mean by rebates,
right? 

568
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,800
And you can do, you can do it 
via like a global - fee rate, 

569
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,600
right? 
If people want to socialize it, 

570
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,400
or you can do it a competitive 
way. 

571
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,400
They think the competition is 
actually Pretty good approach 

572
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,400
because, you know, like folks, 
success Kahana like jump, they 

573
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,200
have their own models, right? 
This is where they 

574
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,900
differentiate, and this is where
they compete. 

575
00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:23,000
And I think, you know, in a 
perfect world. 

576
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,100
They're the ones that are like 
running alongside the give 

577
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:30,500
validator some software. 
Hey run our models and the 

578
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,800
unlike extend those prices to 
the users and get, you know, 

579
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,900
everybody get everybody wants 
basically. 

580
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:41,500
And so, I mean if Look at these 
sort of the debate around them. 

581
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,200
Even if you're in right, there's
also different types of a me 

582
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,900
that people think of differently
like in particular. 

583
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:49,000
You're like, let's say this 
example of Arbitrage. 

584
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,400
So you have like a change, a 
change B, and the prices are 

585
00:32:51,408 --> 00:32:54,500
different and someone can make 
money by like bring them in 

586
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,200
equilibrium. 
I think that's like, 

587
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,600
unequivocally, good thing 
because I have as user then, we 

588
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,400
basically say, I can just trade 
on whatever am I don't have to 

589
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,200
worry about it because the 
prices should be the same, 

590
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,000
right? 
So that I think that's clearly 

591
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,700
great thing. 
In your other things, you know, 

592
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:12,600
like this sandwich attacks, 
right? 

593
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,500
Which are basically, right? 
I mean, how does it work? 

594
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,000
Right? 
So let's say user basically 

595
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,800
says, Okay. 
I want to trade, you know, this 

596
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,700
amount of point for this on 
amount of coin and I'm willing 

597
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:27,800
to accept, you know, a price up 
to some amount right where and 

598
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,900
then somebody can basically push
the price that amount, take it 

599
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,300
back and, and sort of, I get the
worst possible price. 

600
00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:38,000
I was okay with so who, right? 
So who takes a loss there, 

601
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,500
right? 
The LPS, or the user? 

602
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,100
The, the tray, like, whoever 
makes the trade takes a lot, 

603
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:44,900
right? 
So, if you address on the first 

604
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:51,100
order, right, so if you have a 
competition for user flow bad, 

605
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,700
everyone's going to say, well, I
can maximize the sandwich 

606
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:55,900
attacks. 
Yeah, and I'll give you 50% of 

607
00:33:55,900 --> 00:34:01,000
the profit and I keep 50, right?
And some other validator says, 

608
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,500
well give you 75 percent and 
keep the diagram. 

609
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,900
Yeah, and then the user wins, 
right? 

610
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,300
Well, I mean, if he can improve 
his take system, right? 

611
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:11,400
I guess. 
Is the yeah, that's the reaction

612
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,600
would could be right at Ya about
is basically try to like 

613
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,699
maximize that. 
And so, in some way, and then 

614
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:22,100
that properly closed back to the
soul holders, right? 

615
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:27,500
Just acres in the end. 
Yeah, like not entirely, right? 

616
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:31,300
Because you to be able to 
maximize that you would need to.

617
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:33,900
I think give a return to the 
users as well. 

618
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,900
There's no person training. 
Yeah, there's some equilibrium 

619
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,300
because they think so because 
the user always have it has a 

620
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:41,000
choice. 
The trade on Salon or anywhere 

621
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,900
else? 
Yeah, there's no there's never 

622
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:45,800
like a monopoly. 
There's no boats, right? 

623
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,800
So you're always going to be 
dealing with a user that has the

624
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,699
option to make that trade in 
Phantom, right? 

625
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:53,300
Or they can actually give it up 
the axe. 

626
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:55,500
I mean, of course, the other I 
think. 

627
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:59,600
So, if you order maybe answer to
that might also be just that, 

628
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,700
well, you can certainly design a
M&M's that are resistant to 

629
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,800
that, right? 
So different degrees, right? 

630
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,400
So I think to some extent of 
people do that then what people 

631
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,200
I'll stop using that kind of a 
MM, right, that what? 

632
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,600
I think they're actually going 
to be slower and have or spreads

633
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,400
compared to a competitive, a 
media Market. 

634
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,300
Okay. 
So the latency is are going to 

635
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:25,300
be worse because you're trying 
to like, basically stop 

636
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,500
information from flowing as fast
as possible to try to control, 

637
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:33,200
which when events happened and 
force and ordering, or like 

638
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,300
randomize stuff, right? 
And it's may be perceived as 

639
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:43,000
more fair, but I think the 
Results as a slower, kind of a 

640
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,100
slower system that's going to be
more expensive. 

641
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:47,800
Right? 
So your take is like, okay 

642
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,200
should be exploited to the 
maximum and then return to the 

643
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,700
user right to the to the 
stakeholders whoever right? 

644
00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:03,400
Just thinking I practically 
wonder how that actually Flows. 

645
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,100
Back to, who to the user will 
like what? 

646
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:10,200
I imagined but none of this 
works yet. 

647
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,200
Is that the wallet itself? 
Right? 

648
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,100
You can have a button that says 
weight. 

649
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,500
Exercise. 
Back s to get wide white 

650
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:20,700
Kickback for your trade. 
Yeah. 

651
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:23,300
Yeah. 
And maybe always say fastest, 

652
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,000
right? 
Like there is like get fastest, 

653
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,700
cheapest, whatever, slowest gas 
via and how much he pay right? 

654
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:30,800
In this case. 
It's how much you want back, 

655
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:32,700
right? 
So wall. 

656
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:36,300
Okay, basically say okay, we are
going to kind of like, you know,

657
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:42,200
tell the transaction, right and 
then Mev is taken from that. 

658
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,700
And then some of that goes back 
to the to the wallet. 

659
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:48,200
And then they can distribute 
that to the users. 

660
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,700
Yeah, I think it's going to be 
very interesting to see all of 

661
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:53,600
this. 
Yeah. 

662
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,900
So many pieces there. 
It's such a yeah, that is like a

663
00:36:58,908 --> 00:37:02,700
whole financial system just for 
trading pictures of dogs. 

664
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:10,600
Eggs, the entire world's 
Financial system is going to sit

665
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,800
on top of a collection of a 
monkey and if the East. 

666
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,200
Yeah, yeah, but that anyways, 
kind of the amazing thing know 

667
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,600
about like what's kind of 
happening and I said that you 

668
00:37:19,607 --> 00:37:22,600
have to like speculative markets
or any other things and people 

669
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,000
like optimize things, you know 
to to make it more efficient, 

670
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,400
make more money or something 
like that. 

671
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,900
And then I think it drives 
forward all of the Alone, yeah. 

672
00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:39,200
So this is where, like, you 
know, we do the really hard 

673
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,400
stuff make this as close to 
physics as possible. 

674
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,200
Then all the stuff becomes more 
efficient and more value, can be

675
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,200
returned to the world. 
And this has kind of been my, my

676
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,800
main focus and my biggest gripe 
with the city of ultrasound 

677
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:02,000
money is that, that Meme is not.
It is not maximizing. 

678
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,300
The amount of value return to 
the users. 

679
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,900
It's Minimizing the value 
extraction. 

680
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,400
Like these networks metallics 
idea was that this is a public 

681
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,200
good. 
Right? 

682
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:15,300
Right. 
This is a public open to the 

683
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:19,500
world's like infrastructure. 
It should be minimally 

684
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:22,700
extractive, right? 
It should minimize the amount of

685
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:26,000
value takes. 
So to be asked close to the 

686
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,900
physics, the, you know, maximum 
capacity, cheapest cost ya. 

687
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:34,100
Another nothing else matters 
though. 

688
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:36,200
Those other me. 
Memes doesn't matter if it's 

689
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,700
ultrasound, you know, money or 
not or it's or value. 

690
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:44,200
It's like this, it actually 
generating like positive. 

691
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,200
That's some good for the world. 
And is it taking the least 

692
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,200
amount of value to do so? 
Yeah. 

693
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:53,000
Yeah. 
I mean, it is interesting. 

694
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,500
You know, how there has been, I 
think a sort of shift in a 

695
00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:02,500
theorem narrative where it was 
either was photo of gas, right? 

696
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,800
In the beginning - it's okay. 
It's just the paper transaction.

697
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,200
It's right. 
And then I think there's 

698
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:13,100
definitely has been a sort of 
shift towards even even the CIP 

699
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:16,900
1559, right? 
It's like burning the fees with 

700
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:20,100
people are willing to pay for 
that now that I think they were 

701
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:25,200
doing it for so long that maybe 
the mindset of shifted that it's

702
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,700
acceptable, like in my mind is 
an engineered like I know this 

703
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:30,800
is wrong. 
This is wrong. 

704
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,800
You gotta like throw it all the 
way if that's what it's gonna 

705
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,800
die. 
I mean today, right determines 

706
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,200
just unusable. 
Right? 

707
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,500
I mean this is crazy that you 
have like hundreds of dollars of

708
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,300
you have to pay for the 
transaction. 

709
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:48,500
Right? 
So that's actually becomes kind 

710
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:53,200
of what Bitcoin actually even 
bighorn sheep or not, but they 

711
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,400
couldn't stand it because I'm 
pretty easily now, but I think 

712
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,600
always one of the ways that 
Bitcoin is were sort of feeling 

713
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,600
we've okay. 
The system's really not scaling 

714
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,600
and clearly not going to scale. 
Unless like you radically change

715
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,300
something was like okay, but 
then becomes this kind of 

716
00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:11,500
settlement layer and Bitcoin 
transactions can be very 

717
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:15,000
expensive and you have like, 
layer 2 and things and everyone 

718
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,100
can kind of hold Bitcoin even if
they don't directly do so. 

719
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:21,300
And now, I feel like it's or 
girl, you is like, at least 

720
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:23,800
some, something you can look at 
it and be like, okay, I really 

721
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,600
care about how long it takes for
my transaction to settle. 

722
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,300
Yeah, right. 
As long as with its sound like 

723
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:32,700
two weeks, if that's right. 
So within two weeks, I could 

724
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:34,400
find a cheap enough time to do 
so. 

725
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,200
So if somebody your faults on 
like Roll-Ups and the kind of 

726
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,500
the theorem scaling Direction, 
they're not as they don't. 

727
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:46,500
So they don't optimize the 
censorship resistance piece, 

728
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,900
right? 
They actually just reduced a 

729
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:51,900
batch stuff. 
So there's some batching 

730
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:56,100
optimizations. 
So they may reduce some cost to 

731
00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:58,300
users. 
But the majority of those costs 

732
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:02,800
are simply because evm is too 
inefficient to execute, right? 

733
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,900
So you if you get rid of Evo, 
Execution, that's what 

734
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,500
effectively a rollup does. 
Right? 

735
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:12,800
Is it delays executing a VM 
until like, you need to run a 

736
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,800
fraud proof, but if you don't 
use the VM use like BPF x86. 

737
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,100
Any other like efficient virtual
machine, not a there's no real 

738
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,500
savings there. 
So you say it doesn't reduce 

739
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:29,700
censorship resistance because it
doesn't maximize for censorship 

740
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:33,200
resistance because it only 
optimizes. 

741
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,700
This one thing that's extremely 
slow. 

742
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:41,700
Whoa, but you don't need to go 
anyway, and if you, let's say 

743
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:45,400
you reduce fees to users but you
still have the settlement layer 

744
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,900
that extremely expensive to use.
So laughing. 

745
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:53,200
Let's say that thing is 
generating 80 billion dollars a 

746
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:59,300
day in revenue is that is it 
providing censorship. 

747
00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:03,700
Resistive to centralization at 
the cost of 80 billion dollars a

748
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:05,500
day? 
No, it's not. 

749
00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:08,000
If you look at up all the costs 
of running over the theory of 

750
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,700
no, don't know that of all the 
nodes and how it sliced, right? 

751
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:15,600
In terms of censorship 
resistance, like real time. 

752
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:23,300
It's a think, like 4000 X off, 
you mean that the fees collected

753
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:26,700
right by a much higher than 
costs are also. 

754
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:31,700
So, it is not a minimally 
extractive public, good, right? 

755
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:34,400
It just a thing that is has, 
like, captive Market. 

756
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:37,500
It's for the services as 
providing and it's actually kind

757
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:41,900
of like squeezing. 
Yeah, you could, you know, 

758
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:45,500
reduce some of those costs to 
users and even if you can, that 

759
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,900
allows you to increase the 
number of users that will use 

760
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:53,000
the system, but it's still not a
efficient system for the value. 

761
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,300
It's creating for the world. 
Yeah. 

762
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:57,300
No, I think that's true. 
Right. 

763
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,800
I think there's obviously like 
he's an extent where you okay, 

764
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,000
you have to secure me because 
system and there's a lot of 

765
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,400
interoperability other things 
there. 

766
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,800
So there's A lot of like value 
to like being in that ecosystem,

767
00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:12,300
and then, but at the moment, 
it's sort of like, okay? 

768
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:16,900
Because this is capacity 
constrained and just kind of 

769
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:19,700
everything that its tracks 
extracts. 

770
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:24,800
The Valley can to the aquarium 
values of the cryptography. 

771
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:30,400
Yeah, and it's the kids of the 
users and a user that is holding

772
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,900
a bat token, that now holds it 
from Seok-ki 256k one key and 

773
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:41,300
Madame Masque and AT&T 55:19 key
in fandom for the same token. 

774
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,900
It is still part of that bat 
community. 

775
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:48,400
That likes Brave. 
Yeah, so that just will be, do 

776
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,400
got that. 
So kid, what's reward will 

777
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,000
write? 
There's some risk there to use a

778
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,400
bridge always, but you can 
analyze that risk in minimize 

779
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,900
it. 
The know you've reduced 

780
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:02,600
significantly reduce fees and 
now you can cut it. 

781
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:08,000
Minimizing the On a value that 
the network itself, extracts, 

782
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,400
from that Community. 
Do you think it's essential, or 

783
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,900
do you think? 
Yeah, I wanted to warrick's and 

784
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:20,200
is it just, it's just a crucial 
thing that you sort of stay a, 

785
00:44:20,300 --> 00:44:23,900
that sort of the, the network 
throughput of the capacity of 

786
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:27,500
the network stays ahead of the 
actual load. 

787
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:28,600
But I like it. 
Yeah. 

788
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:31,900
Big enough actor. 
Yeah, because you're like, kind 

789
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,300
of like Costco up when there's a
cab. 

790
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:38,300
Burst really like most things 
like what any kind of web scale 

791
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,800
system, you're paying usually 
for the worst case because you 

792
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,900
have like a rush, right? 
And you don't want to be able to

793
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,000
handle it. 
So, just like in those systems, 

794
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,700
are typically going to have to 
be way over capacity to handle 

795
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,400
extremely high Spike. 
And when you get that Spike 

796
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,400
persistently, that's what these 
need to go up to force. 

797
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:03,600
Whatever's, effectively spamming
the not want to back off. 

798
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:06,600
Yeah. 
Well, let's talk a bit about 

799
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,700
sort of you know, we are still 
at you. 

800
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:11,100
You're saying before right? 
I think okay, you're saying 

801
00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:15,000
maybe 300 million accounts for 
up there goes for mobile holders

802
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,800
Boulder. 
So like pets.com stockholder. 

803
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,500
Yeah 300 million. 
Actually, there's a fat stack of

804
00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:23,800
you know, three. 
Yeah. 

805
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:32,500
So where do you think we are in 
terms of like mainstream as 

806
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:34,300
option? 
You think we are going to see 

807
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,700
The kind of like web to 
Applications. 

808
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:40,600
Yeah. 
Well like what timeframe do you 

809
00:45:40,607 --> 00:45:45,900
think those are? 
If it's next year we're looking 

810
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:51,200
at like Phantom adding a billion
users of a month that would feel

811
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,300
like it seems real right? 
That would that seems possible. 

812
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:58,500
Yeah, even a million a week. 
It's like seems possible, but 

813
00:45:58,500 --> 00:45:59,900
that would be like, oh bad the 
weird. 

814
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:05,400
This is it we've had real. 
All that option. 

815
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:11,400
Yeah, that's kind of like, I 
don't know when that happens 

816
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,300
could be next year. 
It could be two or three years 

817
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:16,100
from. 
Oh, it's hard to say. 

818
00:46:16,100 --> 00:46:20,500
Yeah. 
Yeah and next year feels just as

819
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:22,600
likely as two years or three 
years. 

820
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,700
I mean probably a lot depends on
the market right? 

821
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:30,100
Because they do things. 
Go up then interest just goes up

822
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:32,100
so much. 
I guess, it's two things, maybe 

823
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:33,800
right. 
Like, I think the crypto Mark is

824
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,000
like huge. 
Tractor. 

825
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,600
Yeah, it's just dry so much 
interest and then maybe another 

826
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,800
thing is like, okay people are 
actually putting out 

827
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,800
applications that are just 
really great and there are 

828
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,500
unique because they leverage 
crypto and then people just want

829
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:50,500
to use the application. 
They don't care about the market

830
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:53,700
and the prices and then they 
kind of switched out way. 

831
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,600
So, what we see though, I guess 
it's different in the this cycle

832
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,000
is that you're not investing in 
ideas or white papers? 

833
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,800
It's and like actual products. 
You almost don't even. 

834
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:07,700
I haven't read it. 
Anyway. 

835
00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:09,900
Papers a lot in like the last 
six months. 

836
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:12,600
It's like, give me the MVP that 
works for the kind of look at 

837
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,500
it. 
The design, the UI X and sure. 

838
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,300
There's like some Innovation 
around the risk engine or the 

839
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,900
thing that the, you know, the 
new fancy D5 Market or whatever,

840
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:26,500
right? 
And I almost don't care. 

841
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,800
That part is like not as 
important as this. 

842
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,800
There's like good you oxide. 
If you feels like Humans are 

843
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,100
going to use it. 
Yeah, so the thing that makes me

844
00:47:39,100 --> 00:47:42,400
sort of like Paul's a little bit
here is because I remember, you 

845
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,000
know, in 2013 there was this 
bull market and then we have 

846
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,100
2017-18 the school market and 
personally like in each of those

847
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,200
Pascal Marcus. 
I was pretty convinced that like

848
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,500
it did but it's like mainstream 
adoption is coming right? 

849
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:02,800
Because it's obvious that this 
is like but any be superior in 

850
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,000
so many ways and that Understand
that they're like adopted. 

851
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,900
And why would that ever stopped?
Right? 

852
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:12,000
Like, why would they stop until 
it's actually like there and 

853
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,400
then, of course, kind of did in 
both times, so I'm wondering, is

854
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:17,600
it? 
Is it the same now? 

855
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,600
Is it also like, okay. 
We haven't we in this bubble 

856
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,800
have this idea because because 
it's obviously in the end it's 

857
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,500
going to happen right? 
In the end. 

858
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:29,600
You know, it's all going to be 
on crypto and like so the only 

859
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,900
one. 
I don't know. 

860
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,500
I think it's too long. 
Yeah. 

861
00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:37,100
Yeah, I think so. 
Yeah. 

862
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,400
Yeah, it's kind of scary. 
So you can get it's like full. 

863
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,700
It's not gonna like, be easy 
because you still need to build 

864
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:48,200
applications. 
You need to like, iterate on the

865
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,300
parts, where your chest drop off
that users, like lose interest. 

866
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,700
Yeah, right. 
I need to build really good 

867
00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:57,100
applications. 
People want to use that. 

868
00:48:57,100 --> 00:49:02,300
Have some some true like reason 
to be cryptographic right to 

869
00:49:02,308 --> 00:49:04,200
have cryptography. 
Yeah. 

870
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,700
Not just like we stuck crypto 
inside. 

871
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,600
You do Facebook. 
Yeah, like it has to like 

872
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,500
actually have meaningful reason,
right? 

873
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,600
And that's that's what I think 
is starts saying? 

874
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,000
Yeah. 
Yeah, and I think, if you think,

875
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,400
if you look at, you know, what 
happened in these past bear 

876
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,900
markets, but you had you had a 
big crash in price and you also 

877
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,900
had the crash. 
And I mean, one was like, 

878
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:34,200
confidence in the thing, right? 
There was many people. 

879
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,200
Who are like, we think is going 
to happen, and it was like, oh, 

880
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,800
I guess it's not going to happen
after all. 

881
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:41,700
So I think there was that and 
then I think there was also like

882
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:44,600
a decrease in activity, right? 
Because like, funding dried 

883
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,900
activity, dried up and bunch of 
people and elsewhere. 

884
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,000
A lot of funds just died. 
Yeah, those funds company side, 

885
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,300
right? 
So I guess I mean, obviously the

886
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:58,200
volatility is here and here to 
stay at least for a while, 

887
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:59,800
right? 
So, I think we're going to see 

888
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,200
the big crashes, but I guess the
question is, does that actually 

889
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:07,000
Without anything or is it still 
going to be that? 

890
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,700
Like in terms of, you know, 
people building applications and

891
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:12,100
usage? 
And because right now, there's 

892
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:15,500
so much Capital here, right? 
So there was like a run right 

893
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:21,300
from 93 12 2001 on the internet.
Yeah, and this is where I think 

894
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:24,800
we'll this is the one going to 
be eight years of craziness and 

895
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,700
then and then, right exuberance 
and them. 

896
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:31,100
So where do you think we are on 
this 93 to to that? 

897
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:34,200
Well, if it's three, if it's 
three billion users that, it's 

898
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:36,400
Like, 93 94. 
Yeah. 

899
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

900
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,800
This is wild. 
Yeah. 

901
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:43,700
Yeah. 
I don't know. 

902
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:49,000
Anything else. 
I think a lot of your listeners 

903
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,400
went through the bear market and
we're building with us in the 

904
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,300
trenches. 
I think that's what actually 

905
00:50:56,300 --> 00:51:00,000
will get, you will cause some 
the supercycle. 

906
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:02,800
Yeah. 
Is the people building that have

907
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,800
been through the other ones that
are Okay. 

908
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:05,900
Well, this is fun. 
Right? 

909
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:10,800
I'm actually seeing traction of 
like, yeah, I mean, that's 

910
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,600
that's the other thing. 
I, you should hang back to 

911
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,100
2017-18, right? 
They're still all of this 

912
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:17,000
exuberance and there was a lot 
of things. 

913
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,200
You feel like this is like too 
much exuberant. 

914
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,300
Yeah, and now there's like 
there's definitely similarities,

915
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:25,000
right? 
You can definitely see a lot of 

916
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,800
that stuff, too. 
But at the same time, right? 

917
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:32,500
If you think of like the that, 
that transition to go from like 

918
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:35,600
three million users to like, 
Three billion users. 

919
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,400
Well, the he's going to be that 
exuberance, right? 

920
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,100
Like that is just going to be a 
part of it. 

921
00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:42,600
It doesn't mean it's like a 
bubble that's going to end with 

922
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:48,700
rise of X. 
Yeah, but actually is not a lot.

923
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:55,700
Look at how fast part folds 
like, Grew From nothing. 

924
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:59,600
To delete the users. 
It took about a year, but look 

925
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:03,800
like a look baby, too. 
Cool. 

926
00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:07,800
Well, thanks so much Anatoly. 
It was young, great catching up.

927
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,300
And yeah, I mean, I'm excited to
like continue on this like weird

928
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,600
crypto and Salon in particular, 
likewise. 

929
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,200
Yeah, it's alright. 
Thanks so much. 

930
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,500
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

931
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,400
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932
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,400
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933
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,900
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934
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,000
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935
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000
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936
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,100
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00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:45,700
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938
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:48,500
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00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:51,000
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00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:54,000
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00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,800
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943
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:02,000
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