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To put it quite frank, I think 
we're doing it wrong right now 

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in the Web 3 space, e-mail is 
actually a decentralized 

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protocol by design. 
You look at Google, you look at 

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Microsoft, you look at Spamhaus.
If you couldn't send an e-mail 

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to somebody using Gmail, then 
you stopped running your own 

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server and that created the 
natural centralization, even 

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though you could be doing 
everything in a decentralized 

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way. 
There's 10s of millions of users

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who use Brave, but there's a 
couple of thousands of websites 

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that use BAT for 
incentivization. 

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If you look at how much you 
actually get for watching an ad,

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it's tiny. 
What do you think the challenges

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here are? 
I think you're hitting at the 

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heart of the problem. 
Excellent question. 

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Welcome to Epicenter, the show 
which talks about the 

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00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,240
technologies, projects and 
people driving decentralization 

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00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,640
and the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Fredrika ANZ, and today I'm 

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00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,200
speaking with Kylan Hartock, who
is a security engineer at Brave.

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00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,600
You all know Brave the Privacy 
First browser. 

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00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,560
And before I talk with Kyle this
week, let me tell you about our 

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00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,040
sponsors. 
This episode has brought you my 

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37
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,840
OK. 
Thank you so much for coming on.

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00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,280
Thank you very much for having 
me. 

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00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,360
Cool, Kyle, it's it's been a 
pleasure using Brave for the 

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00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,039
last many years. 
We've had Brandon on ages ago. 

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So we'll dive into kind of 
everything that's happened at 

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Brave since then. 
But maybe before we do that, 

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tell us a little bit about you 
yourself. 

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What's your background? 
Yeah. 

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So my background kind of comes 
from a little bit of a mix of 

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like cryptography, security and 
then expanding into Web 3 is 

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kind of the the niche specifics.
So originally I started out as a

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penetration tester as an intern 
right out of university and then

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expanded into digital identity 
with that from taking the 

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computer security course. 
So I spent about five years 

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working in that space. 
And in that I kind of expanded 

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my knowledge on cryptography 
and, and web standards, working 

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as an editor of the verifiable 
credential specification. 

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And then through that and kind 
of the touch points of, of 

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digital identity, the web three.
That's how I ended up at Brave 

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to come and help on the security
side of things within the wallet

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and within the browser. 
And these days also helping a 

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little bit on the search side. 
What was your take on Web 3 when

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you came in? 
I know kind of like it's a very 

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divisive subject in the security
arena. 

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Yeah, For me, I've always found 
it to be kind of user 

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empowering. 
And the concept of self 

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sovereignty I think is really 
embodied by the community. 

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I think the way that we 
represent the principles at 

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times doesn't always match what 
we say that we could do. 

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But as I've learned with 
anything, nothing is perfect. 

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You're always striving to be 
better. 

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And, and so I think that's 
really what I'm trying to 

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contribute to the space as well,
is how do we make sure we get 

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closer and closer to these 
different principles that that 

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we say that we're working on. 
So a brave kind of your work 

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centers around identity and 
privacy. 

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Tell us about what made you 
interested in these topics in 

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particular. 
Yeah, so it largely actually 

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comes back to the computer 
security course that I took in 

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university. 
So when I was interning my my 

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final year, my computer security
professor presented me with an 

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interesting problem. 
He said how could we build a 

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voting system on a blockchain? 
And I kind of ran down a rabbit 

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hole with that and started 
looking at digital identity from

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that perspective. 
And so it kind of opened my eyes

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to the idea of how identity 
plays such a integral role of 

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all of what we do online. 
We have to be identified 

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whenever we're interacting with 
a website and, you know, whether

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that's just an IP address so 
that they can figure out who to 

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send a response to up to 
building authentication and 

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authorization systems, 
passwords, passkeys, all of 

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these sorts of things. 
They all come back to the 

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concepts of individual identity,
of knowing who says what about 

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whom. 
And, and so that really kind of 

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led me down this path of 
understanding. 

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OK. 
So if this sits at the base 

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layer of everything, 
understanding it is very useful 

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and and very impactful to 
everything that we do on the 

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web. 
The ID decentralized identity, 

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it's been here since the 
beginning of Web 3 as a dream, 

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right? 
But so far, all the solutions 

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that we've seen have been pretty
centralized. 

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Can you give us an overview of 
what the ecosystem looks like? 

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Yes. 
So I think what's interesting is

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actually going back before even 
decentralized identity as we 

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call it today and looking at the
history of digital identity 

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taking a step back to Open ID 
Connect. 

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Originally the design of that 
was meant to be more 

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decentralized because it was 
well, it actually technically be

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referred to as Federated because
the goal of it was to be able to

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allow bloggers to be able to 
authenticate between their 

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different sites so that they 
could add comments within their 

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systems. 
So the original design of a lot 

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of these pieces were designed in
that sort of way, but what 

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happens typically is that 
centralization is easier to 

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implement and it allows you to 
provide better security 

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controls. 
And so the actual 

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implementations themselves ended
up going more towards a 

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centralized approach and, and 
creating like natural hubs of of

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centralization over them. 
So. 

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Like sign in with Google and 
sign in with Facebook and kind 

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of all the likes, right? 
Yep, Yep. 

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And education and you know, the,
the main problem that really 

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kind of drove this was actually 
enterprises doing single sign on

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systems within all their 
services that they wanted their 

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employees to be able to log 
into. 

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So it's kind of really trying to
take that concept further today,

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but do it within a more 
decentralized approach because 

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what motivated the concept of of
DI DS actually came back to web 

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payments. 
So one of the problems that was 

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encountered with web payments 
was that it was built on an 

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e-mail. 
Well, if you, you know, lose 

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your e-mail address or your 
e-mail address gets hacked, then

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you're able to basically steal 
access to the web payments. 

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And so that's where we needed a 
different identifier. 

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And that's where the creation of
the decentralized identifier 

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specification came into play, 
was creating this kind of 

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alternative method to be able to
control access to the identifier

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used for web payments. 
These days it's doing less of 

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that and it's kind of expanded 
into many different areas, but 

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it's kind of that same concept 
of understanding the underlying 

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aspect of the identifier itself.
If you kind of look at the 

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market segmentation today, when 
people are on the Internet, what

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do they actually use to identify
themselves with? 

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It all comes back to the e-mail.
What I find very interesting 

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about this is e-mail is actually
a decentralized protocol by 

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design. 
If you look at the design of it,

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anybody can set up their own 
domain and anybody can send an 

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e-mail to anybody, and anybody 
can run their own e-mail server.

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In the same way that anybody can
get their own public key, 

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anybody can run their own 
blockchain node, and anybody can

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send payments or assets around 
on the blockchain protocol. 

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What's interesting is wondering 
how did we actually centralized 

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e-mail? 
Well, it really comes back to 

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you look at Google, you look at 
Microsoft, you look at Spamhaus.

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They're all trying to address 
the problem of spam production. 

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Well, they ended up winning out 
because they provided the best 

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spam protections. 
And by doing that, everybody 

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decided, hey, let me go use it. 
So then their implementations 

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within the protocol naturally 
created centralization because 

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if you couldn't send an e-mail 
to somebody using Gmail, then 

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you stopped running your own 
server. 

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You just had too much 
maintenance headaches and, and 

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managing it yourself. 
And that created the natural 

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centralization, even though you 
could be doing everything in a 

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decentralized way. 
Yeah, that, that makes sense. 

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I'm sure there's economy is at 
scale here, but kind of they 

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tape off, right, kind of like 
whether you kind of scan 50 

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million emails or 500 million 
emails kind of at some point 

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kind of your spam detection 
doesn't get any better. 

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So if kind of spam protection is
the bottleneck, how many 

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disjunct e-mail services do you 
think we could have? 

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Or could Gmail kind of offer a 
plug and play spam filter to 

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kind of run locally on your on 
your own server? 

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How, how do you think kind of we
could, we could end up in a much

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more Federated e-mail system? 
So I think this is one of the 

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things that I'm still trying to 
figure out what the answer is. 

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I read a good blog post recently
and I can't remember who it was 

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by, but one of the things that 
they pointed out was that 

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naturally over time, as you add 
complexity, you, you will 

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centralized because you gain a 
certain level of expertise and 

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that node provides better 
guarantees than everybody else. 

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So as you address more and more 
problems, fewer and fewer people

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can participate and do it at a 
high quality level. 

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And so naturally you're going to
create these sorts of things. 

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So I think the idea that you're 
exploring there is how can you 

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do this like adversarial interop
type plug and play approach 

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where you create the openness of
the protocol such that anybody 

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can just go by instead of having
to build it themselves. 

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And then that pluggableness is 
what keeps the network more 

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decentralized by design. 
So Brave was founded in 2015 by 

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Brandon Ike and Brian Bondy, and
kind of the original mission was

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very much kind of to build a 
privacy first browser. 

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How do you think that vision has
held up over the years? 

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I mean, it's been 10 years, 
right? 

192
00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,360
Yeah, Yeah. 
Well, I think the numbers kind 

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of speak for themselves. 
We actually just announced today

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that we had 100 million monthly 
active users. 

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So, you know, the vision is is 
going and it's growing. 

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00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,080
You know, you can look at our 
growth rates to see how many 

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more people are kind of moving 
in and what are the advantages 

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00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:01,080
of it. 
A lot of people don't think 

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00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,320
about privacy in the sense of 
like, you know, privacy nerds 

200
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,840
like myself, do they think about
it in a practical sense of like,

201
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,920
hey, I don't see ads on YouTube.
That's kind of nice. 

202
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,080
Like that's literally one of the
the number one features. 

203
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:15,920
But behind the scenes, what 
they're actually getting is 

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00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,760
canvas fingerprinting 
protection, Shields built in, 

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00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,720
all the different, you know, 
capabilities that we have. 

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00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,760
We have a built in VPN to be 
able to, to do IP address 

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00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,320
blocking, proxying of services 
behind the scenes, you know, 

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00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,560
like when we have to communicate
with Google saved browsing 

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00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,680
services, we're proxying those 
communications. 

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All of these things are things 
that people are getting by 

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default because we care about 
making sure that people have 

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00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,800
those, those capabilities built 
in from from the start. 

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00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,440
And so we bring them in with the
no YouTube ads, but along the 

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00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,040
way, we actually help everybody 
to get better privacy on the 

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00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,440
web. 
Why do we think people don't 

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00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,560
care about, I mean, there are 
people who care about privacy, 

217
00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:58,960
right? 
But the by and large, the 

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00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,280
majority of people don't care at
all, right? 

219
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,800
Even for things that are clearly
exploitative in some sense. 

220
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,800
So people using Gmail, despite 
the fact that kind of ProtonMail

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00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,120
offers exactly the same service 
and is free also. 

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00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,320
And kind of why do you think 
kind of like this privacy has to

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00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,760
be shoved down people's throats?
I think a lot of it comes back 

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00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,080
to what I refer to as the power 
user problem. 

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00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:32,080
So caring about privacy requires
toggling and changing a lot of 

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00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,600
things in a lot of cases. 
So that naturally comes into the

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picture of I'm a power user, I 
know how to go in, I understand 

228
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what those toggles are doing, 
and I configure them. 

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00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,120
So this is where I think 
defaults come into play in a lot

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00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,920
of cases is knowing that you get
it, but that somebody else is 

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00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,800
taking care of it for you. 
You know, going back to the 

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e-mail example, I could run my 
own e-mail server today. 

233
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,120
I'm technically capable. 
I understand how it works. 

234
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,360
I could probably figure out ways
to bypass the different spam 

235
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,760
restrictions that come into 
place. 

236
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But my time is worth money, you 
know, like my time is worth the 

237
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ability to, you know, have the 
the meme of touch grass. 

238
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You know, I like to go out and I
like to play golf and stuff. 

239
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,360
So it's a choice between do I 
want to go play golf or do I 

240
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,760
want to manage my e-mail server.
So when you come into those 

241
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,000
sorts of restrictions, I think 
that's the reason that so many 

242
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,680
people end up defaulting to 
that. 

243
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,880
Well, I'll just pick the easy 
and convenient thing, even if 

244
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,720
that means that, you know, I'm 
giving up some of my privacy or 

245
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,120
making some other trade-offs in 
in some sort of way. 

246
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,080
So in that sense, I think that's
where it comes back to, you 

247
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,480
know, the maintenance headache 
is really what it's about. 

248
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,760
And it's not about people not 
wanting privacy. 

249
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,640
It's about people wanting it as 
long as it's convenient still. 

250
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,880
Would you say that ProtonMail is
less convenient than Gmail? 

251
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,280
In my experience, no. 
Billions of people use Gmail and

252
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,600
millions of people use 
ProtonMail. 

253
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,480
It's the vertical integration 
that you know, that you see with

254
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,040
Google, that you see with 
Microsoft, their ability to 

255
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,240
integrate their different 
services together to make them 

256
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,760
all work. 
I think that gives them a 

257
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,520
natural network effect that 
creates kind of their, their 

258
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,800
walled gardens and slowly over 
time, everybody hits a friction 

259
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,760
point. 
Like the reason that I switched 

260
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,120
from Gmail to ProtonMail in the 
1st place was actually because 

261
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,520
my free Gmail account hit the 15
GB limit. 

262
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,240
And I was like, well, if I'm 
going to have to pay some, why 

263
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,240
not just pay an extra $2.00 a 
month? 

264
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,720
And I did, you know, free drive,
free VPN, free Proton pass. 

265
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,480
Like I ended up saving money 
because I dropped my LastPass 

266
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,480
account. 
I'm not paying for the Google 

267
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,080
Drive. 
I still get e-mail and so like 

268
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,080
the net benefits that I got from
Proton Pass were better as soon 

269
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:53,160
as I kind of used my way out of 
the free part of the system of 

270
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,760
Google. 
OK. 

271
00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:01,760
Yeah, initially kind of the idea
ad Brave was also kind of that 

272
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,200
attention should be monetized, 
right? 

273
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,960
Because kind of like every time 
you get something for free, 

274
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,080
don't really get it for free, 
you're kind of being squeezed in

275
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,160
some way that you can't 
immediately tell. 

276
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,160
And kind of the way that Google 
does that obviously is it kind 

277
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,880
of data farms you and then tries
to sell you things or have other

278
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,520
people sell you things. 
In 2017, Brave kind of did this 

279
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:32,680
ICO, the basic attention token 
BAT and kind of the idea was 

280
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,240
that if you choose to kind of be
data mined or look at adverts 

281
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,520
and so on, you would be 
compensated for that, right? 

282
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,200
Tell us about what the idea was 
and how that has evolved over 

283
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,720
the years. 
So I think where you have to 

284
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,040
first start is back at the 
economics of why did we go down 

285
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,880
the advertising path in the 1st 
place. 

286
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,000
What it really comes back to and
some of the things that you see 

287
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,280
argued by Google within the web 
standard space is that the 

288
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,040
advertising model actually 
creates the open web. 

289
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,280
If you had a pay wallet at every
single site that you had to show

290
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,320
up at, you would create a 
friction point where I have to 

291
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,160
decide, do I want to spend a 
penny or not every single time 

292
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,120
and I visit some site. 
The advertising model has 

293
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,440
created that. 
But along the way it's also 

294
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,480
meant that we need better 
targeting because that's what 

295
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,840
the customer was demanding. 
The advertisers are demanding 

296
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,960
the ability to know that they're
getting, you know, as as good a 

297
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,520
value from the dollar as they 
can. 

298
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,480
So that's the advertising model 
to understand. 

299
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960
And then what we looked at was, 
OK, how do you make sure you 

300
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,000
maintain the open web, but you 
do it in such a way that it's 

301
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,040
actually privacy preserving? 
Well, we know that the 

302
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,840
advertising model works. 
It funds the entire open web 

303
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,600
today. 
But to achieve the privacy 

304
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,520
preserving principles, what we 
started to look at was, you 

305
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,560
know, how can we do this 
directly within the browser? 

306
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,560
So within the browser itself, 
we're able to do these 

307
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,080
confirmations where we can 
basically send the entire 

308
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,599
advertising catalog down to the 
browser and then the browser can

309
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,880
do the selection of the ad 
advertisement. 

310
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,960
And then using zero knowledge 
proofs built on a modified 

311
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,720
version of the the Privacy Pass 
protocol, we're actually able to

312
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,640
do the confirmations to be able 
to say, yes, this ad was viewed.

313
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,319
So then the question becomes, 
OK, so we've got the 

314
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,560
advertising, we've got the the 
privacy model, how do we 

315
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,040
incentivize users to move into 
the system? 

316
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,640
Well, eventually when you are 
like thinking about the 

317
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,320
economics of this, again, the 
only way that you can go if 

318
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,560
you've reached the point of free
is to start paying people and 

319
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,000
subsidizing them. 
So that's where kind of this 

320
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,520
this split model comes into play
is that, you know, trying to 

321
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,200
take into consideration the 
equity and the alignment of 

322
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,720
this, but also taking into 
consideration the competitive 

323
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,440
advantages that can come into 
play. 

324
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,680
So I guess essentially what it 
comes down to is this is a 

325
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,960
natural evolution of maintaining
the open web and doing it in an 

326
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,120
economic way, but also making it
so that it's user first so that 

327
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,600
users can choose to opt into it 
if they want to. 

328
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,400
And so as soon as you try and 
tackle all three of these hard 

329
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,240
problems at the same time, 
that's kind of how you end up on

330
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,640
this sort of model. 
How well do you feel it's 

331
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,800
whacking? 
Because kind of like there's 10s

332
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,120
of millions of users who use 
Brave, but there's a couple of 

333
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:28,320
thousands of websites that use 
BAT for, for incentivization. 

334
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,960
If you look at how much you 
actually get for watching an ad,

335
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,600
it's tiny, right? 
So kind of to me, kind of like 

336
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,360
I'm a Brave user. 
I use Brave as my primary 

337
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,480
browser even on mobile where 
it's gotten much, much better by

338
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,160
the way. 
But kind of I've, I've only 

339
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,360
watched kind of ads for test 
purposes. 

340
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:55,560
You you get such tiny amounts, 
kind of like 0.005 cents or 

341
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,400
something. 
What do you think the challenges

342
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,640
here are? 
I think you're hitting at the 

343
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,040
heart of the problem. 
This is a very tough problem. 

344
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,760
So first of all, excellent 
question. 

345
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,520
The way that I would address 
this is I think it comes down to

346
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:16,120
who you're able to attract as 
advertisers makes the value of 

347
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,040
how much you can return to 
users. 

348
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,720
A big part of it, something 
that's like not well understood 

349
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,800
within the advertising space and
within that, that vertical is 

350
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,840
that Google basically controls 
this entire market. 

351
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,600
You know, that was a big part of
this antitrust case that came 

352
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,000
into play is, you know, how do 
you create these sorts of 

353
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,320
restrictions around these 
national monopolies and stuff? 

354
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,360
And so with that, you come into 
the question of like, how do you

355
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,800
attract a new advertisers and 
how do you, you know, make sure 

356
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,560
that they want to buy these 
different ad units? 

357
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,160
You know, they're used to 
selling search ads, but when you

358
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,520
go in there and you say, hey, 
we've got this other type of ad 

359
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,880
unit that's built directly into 
the browser, are you interested 

360
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,880
in it? 
And then you also come in and 

361
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,840
say, oh, by the way, we can't 
give you cohorts of data about 

362
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,320
the user because we're just 
doing that all locally on the 

363
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,000
browser and we're not sending 
that back. 

364
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,680
You run into this kind of 
restriction around capabilities.

365
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760
And So what we've seen is that 
there's a certain number of 

366
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,360
people who really kind of get 
it. 

367
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,280
And then for some of the the 
other companies, it's become a 

368
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,720
little bit more restrictive. 
So often times people will 

369
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,200
complain about, oh, you know, 
Brave is, is showing me all this

370
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,600
crypto stuff. 
I have come to think that a part

371
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,800
of that is because the crypto 
industry really understands this

372
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,920
ad unit and understands the 
value of it. 

373
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,640
And so because of it, you know, 
when we're dealing with a new 

374
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,200
tab page advertisement, they're 
interested in it because they 

375
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,960
understand that there's a lot of
people within the Web 3 space 

376
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,240
that use Brave as a browser. 
And so then they're able to 

377
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,560
attract people to their products
and services based upon those 

378
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,720
things. 
Theoretically, it doesn't have 

379
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,480
to work that way though. 
I mean, Ford has been able to 

380
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,120
use these advertisements and, 
and been able to expand on it 

381
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,000
because they've understood it. 
And so in that way, I think it 

382
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,880
really comes back to 
understanding that so that you 

383
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,520
can drive the value into the ad 
unit so that you can return more

384
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,720
value to it. 
Because that's the the thing 

385
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,120
about the design of the BAT 
token is that, you know, we're 

386
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,920
doing essentially a, a revenue 
share agreement with the user. 

387
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,120
We're taking some of what we 
earn and we're passing it on to 

388
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,960
the user. 
So as long as the value of that 

389
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,400
advertisement can continue to go
up, then you can continue to 

390
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,120
pass that value on to the user. 
You think kind of like. 

391
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,360
The crux of the matter is the 
the addressable market. 

392
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:38,520
That's not quite ready for this 
yet because kind of like if I 

393
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:45,920
think about myself, I'm in 
principle, I think I'm a juicy 

394
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,800
customer. 
So say for instance, I book a 

395
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,840
holiday or something. 
If I were to be able to kind of 

396
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:59,920
self describe myself and say I'm
a 39 year old German, I'm a 

397
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,840
mother of four kids, I like 
going on holidays and I'm 

398
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,800
somewhat price insensitive. 
I'd like to go somewhere where 

399
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,520
the sun shines and where I don't
have to be on the beach all day 

400
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,040
where I can go on a hike or 
something. 

401
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,520
In principle, kind of this is 
this is something that that's 

402
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,760
information I would be happy to 
divulge about myself if it led 

403
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:27,680
to a targeted advertising where 
I'm not pitched things I would 

404
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:34,040
never consider going to. 
And B, if if I were to see some 

405
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,200
of the kick back here, that 
would be even better, right. 

406
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560
How much do you think we can 
modularize this? 

407
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720
And I'm sure there's probably an
AI play in here somewhere. 

408
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,040
Yeah, yeah, I. 
Mean you're already seeing it 

409
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,440
from everybody on the AI space, 
but I'll cover that in a second.

410
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,720
I think it's better to talk 
about like what we're actually 

411
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,280
doing right now, which is like 
essentially we've we've pivoted 

412
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,960
more towards this offer wall 
approach and being able to, to 

413
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,040
display these, these offers 
directly to users to be able to 

414
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,240
offer discounts of being able to
transact with bat and and do 

415
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,800
things like that. 
That's been one part of our our 

416
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,720
consideration for this. 
We still have the ad units that 

417
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,760
are in play as well, but it's, 
it's basically trying to figure 

418
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,240
out how do we add utility to the
model such that it's, it's still

419
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,240
coming back to that. 
So I think that's the the first 

420
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,400
thing to understand is like, how
do you create an ad unit that is

421
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,360
more attractive? 
And I think what you highlight 

422
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:39,040
there is exactly the theory that
I've heard promoted by Doc 

423
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,000
Searles. 
It's a, a concept called vendor 

424
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,920
relationship management. 
He's had this for, I don't know,

425
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,280
at least a decade, but it's 
basically to be able to intend 

426
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,960
cast and like, what I mean by 
that is advertise to vendors. 

427
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:57,400
I'm interested in buying this. 
Can you compete for my business 

428
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,480
to offer me a, a better offer? 
So, you know, say for example, I

429
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,760
say I'm interested in buying a 
pair of shoes, then Nike can go,

430
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,800
hey, I'll offer you a 10% 
discount for buying my Nike 

431
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,840
shoes. 
And then Adidas will go, I'll 

432
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,440
offer you a 15% discount for 
buying my shoes. 

433
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,320
And I love this it. 
Kind of it's intent based 

434
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,640
advertising. 
Yes, yes, it's. 

435
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,440
Exactly that. 
And so I love the theory behind 

436
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,160
this. 
And I think that's kind of the 

437
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,120
vision of of where we're kind of
moving towards with this offer 

438
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,600
wall approach is being able to 
do this, but doing it in such a 

439
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,600
personalized way that like you 
don't need to advertise your 

440
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,920
your cohort of information. 
Kind of like the the flock based

441
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,280
approach that's being tested out
by Google Chrome. 

442
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,120
Essentially what they're trying 
to do is they're trying to 

443
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,400
advertise different, three 
different flags or interests to 

444
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,720
the site or to the advertiser 
and then the advertiser chooses 

445
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,080
an ad based upon that. 
And the unfortunate reality is 

446
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,320
that three interests are roughly
enough to be able to still 

447
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,800
singulate or like isolate who 
you are and identify you in some

448
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,200
sort of way just based upon the 
probabilistic like bit entropy 

449
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,800
of this. 
So like to explain that a little

450
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520
bit higher level so that people 
kind of pick up what I'm saying.

451
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,920
If you were to take somebody's 
name, date of birth and their 

452
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,880
zip code, the likelihood of 
being able to figure out who 

453
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:30,000
that person is comes down to 
like a 95 percentile capability,

454
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,280
you know, just by taking, you 
know, three pieces of 

455
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,360
information about them and 
combining them together. 

456
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,000
You know, that's just the way 
the math works. 

457
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,680
So I think that's a big part of 
the question. 

458
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Now to get to your, your 
question about the AI side of 

459
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,480
things, I think this is where 
everybody's still exploring what

460
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,800
can, what can actually happen. 
You know, there's, there's 

461
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,320
concepts that are coming into 
play with advertisers or, or 

462
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,320
people who are creating rewards 
based systems wanting to have 

463
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,760
their ad shown within the actual
LMS and within the chat box and 

464
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,920
stuff like that. 
And so we see advertisements 

465
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,320
coming into play in that sort of
way. 

466
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,600
One of the struggles that you're
going to run into though, is 

467
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,040
that essentially you're going to
run into this rag model where 

468
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,280
you're augmenting the actual 
chat through context of the 

469
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,600
marketing data itself. 
And so then how do you know that

470
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,480
what's actually being presented 
from the chat interface is not 

471
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,720
just marketing material and that
it's, it's unbiased in some sort

472
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,360
of way? 
And so I think this is one of 

473
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,720
the interesting questions that 
I'm trying to keep an eye on 

474
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,800
what people are doing with this.
Because, you know, part of what 

475
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,240
happens when people are leaving 
search and, and going to more of

476
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,240
these chat LLM approaches is 
that the advertisement potential

477
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,880
number of advertisements you can
show is actually going to drop 

478
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,640
overtime. 
So that may be an opportunity 

479
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,160
for us because we're already 
kind of like repositioning the 

480
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,000
entire advertising market in the
1st place because fewer people 

481
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,040
are visiting sites and you know,
more stuff is being done through

482
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,400
the actual like LOM and, and 
chatbot interfaces. 

483
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,040
And then that sort of way to an 
advertiser, they're looking at 

484
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,040
it going, hey, our previous ad 
units that we were used to being

485
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,520
able to buy through Google 
AdSense and stuff are already 

486
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,520
being replaced. 
Maybe we should go consider 

487
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,400
exploring some of these ones 
that are happening in the 

488
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,840
browser, you know, the new ones 
that are coming out through the 

489
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,080
LOM. 
Yeah, and I mean. 

490
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,040
We already see this, that kind 
of SEO is being overtaken by 

491
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,800
Geo. 
So kind of optimizing for 

492
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,440
generative NLM. 
So yeah, 100%. 

493
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,800
I think kind of like part of 
part of the appeal to me is the 

494
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,080
0 knowledge component. 
So in principle, I don't object 

495
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,600
to being advertised to, right? 
So kind of like if, if I say, 

496
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,880
OK, I'm here and I want to buy 
and buy a holiday, kind of I 

497
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,840
want a direct flight. 
I want it to be somewhere, 

498
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,080
somewhere warmer than here. 
And I want to be able to see an 

499
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,080
elephant. 
Kind of this is kind of in 

500
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,920
principle, I'm inviting people 
to kind of send me offers for 

501
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,400
that. 
What I object to is the fact 

502
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:19,160
that this goes into a a targeted
A targeting brief about myself. 

503
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,960
OK, this lady is is willing to 
drop a pretty penny on a nice 

504
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,640
holiday. 
So in in in the future, kind of 

505
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,040
target these things at her. 
And I think a lot of this can be

506
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,480
solved by zero knowledge 
technology. 

507
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,840
Tell tell me where you are at 
there and kind of where you 

508
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,880
think this is going to go. 
Yep. 

509
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,800
I think the way that we've 
constructed this system works 

510
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,320
quite well for this because you 
don't need to share the 

511
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,560
information to still get the 
personalization. 

512
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,440
So in concept, essentially what 
you can do is be able to utilize

513
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,920
the interests of things that are
happening within the browser to 

514
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,240
do that classification and 
matching all client side. 

515
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,440
So if you have the entire list 
of of potential ads and they've 

516
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,000
already been tagged as related 
to a particular topic, then you 

517
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,400
can essentially still do that, 
that intent based model, but do 

518
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,120
it all client side directly 
within the browser itself. 

519
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,400
So in that way, like you're just
changing the information model 

520
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,280
first such that you don't even 
have to share the information 

521
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,400
and then the zero knowledge 
comes into play to do the 

522
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,800
confirmation aspects itself. 
And so I think that's what's 

523
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,600
more interesting about it is 
rather than going down kind of 

524
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,360
Mozilla's expiration path where 
they're trying to do all of this

525
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,320
inside of trusted execution 
environments and still sharing 

526
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,480
the data itself. 
Modifying the information model 

527
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,840
is the the best answer here 
because the best way to 

528
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,320
guarantee your privacy is to 
never share the information in 

529
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,480
the first place. 
Yeah, 100%. 

530
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,120
So you guys have a branch into 
offering a wallet, which kind of

531
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,960
also comes hand in hand with 
kind of having to store the that

532
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,080
token somewhere and talk. 
So how, how do you connect all 

533
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,280
of these dots? 
Yeah. 

534
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,920
So a big part of it is what are 
the features that people want to

535
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,400
use on the web today and how do 
we build them such that they're 

536
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,760
user first in principle? 
Like that is the guiding light 

537
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,280
between all of our different 
product features and and 

538
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,440
capabilities is, is really how 
do we do something that focuses 

539
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,760
on the user and addresses the 
user's needs. 

540
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,480
So when you look at the wallet, 
it's essentially exactly that we

541
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,760
see that where the the web is 
going is that we need payments. 

542
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,240
I mean, this isn't new like the,
the first attempt of web 

543
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,040
payments is like PayPal, if you 
think about it, you know, and 

544
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,320
then PayPal was kind of the 
first generation and now we've 

545
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,040
seen that we've got, you know, 
the stripes and the, the blocks 

546
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,360
or square as kind of the, the 
second generation. 

547
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,840
You've also got Google Pay and 
Apple Pay that have fit within 

548
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,360
this. 
And, and now crypto is kind of 

549
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,880
the third evolution of this. 
So really we're, we're 

550
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,960
addressing the same user need, 
but we're doing it in a slightly

551
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,200
different way. 
So that's kind of where that 

552
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,080
comes into play is, you know 
what's slightly different? 

553
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Well, it's designed to be more 
open. 

554
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,800
It's, it's a permissionless 
system by design. 

555
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,880
With the current design of, of 
like, you know, the stripes and 

556
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,120
the Paypal's and stuff. 
One of the biggest headaches 

557
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,800
that we run into is kind of the 
compliance factors and the 

558
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,640
regulations that come into play,
because traditionally you've had

559
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:34,120
to extend the banking compliance
regulations into decentralized 

560
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,400
providers. 
But when you're doing 

561
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,800
peer-to-peer payments, the 
application of the laws just 

562
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,560
doesn't quite work in the same 
way. 

563
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,040
And so that's, you know, how the
wallet comes into play. 

564
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,200
And you know, it's the same 
thing with kind of the talk 

565
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880
thing is like people are 
inherently social. 

566
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,920
They want to get together and 
meet, you know, we're, we're on 

567
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,520
a video call right now. 
And so in that sort of sense, 

568
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,520
it's one of those things where 
you're wanting to interact with 

569
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,440
people. 
And so how do you make sure that

570
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,080
that's happening in a way that 
is addressing their needs? 

571
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,200
So like some of the things that 
we built into talk that was a 

572
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,520
little bit different was NFT 
gating specifically around your 

573
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,640
community. 
So, you know, technically an NFT

574
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,360
community could basically build 
a web call that you could 

575
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,200
present your your wallet itself 
to be able to show the 

576
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,360
capabilities of logging into the
actual talk. 

577
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:34,640
So like, let's say I owned a 
what is the well known NFTS, the

578
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,880
crypto punks? 
Let's say I owned a crypto punk 

579
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,440
and it was meant to be an online
meeting of the crypto punks. 

580
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,200
I can present and and sign a 
message that shows, hey, I own a

581
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,840
wallet address that owns a 
crypto punk. 

582
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,800
And then I'd be able to have 
access into that dated community

583
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,960
because of the NF TS I own. 
And so a lot of this comes back 

584
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,040
to how do we build social 
communities and, and build 

585
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,080
capabilities that the users 
actually want to be able to do 

586
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,800
what they're already doing today
on the web. 

587
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,560
How? 
Do you tie in the wallet with 

588
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,040
the identity? 
Because in principle identity is

589
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,640
really touchy and privacy on 
chain is hard and kind of 

590
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,800
connecting everything then also 
with kind of this monetary 

591
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,240
layer, how do you see that to 
put it? 

592
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,440
Quite frankly, I think we're 
doing it wrong right now in the 

593
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,720
Web 3 space. 
What I mean by that is privacy 

594
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,720
is inherent because what it 
grants us, it is a means to an 

595
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,160
end. 
Privacy is a way to be able to 

596
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,640
achieve greater control over 
what you present to other 

597
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,120
people. 
Similarly so. 

598
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,880
So I, I often times refer to 
that as agency. 

599
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,040
I have the agency to be able to 
determine these things 

600
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,280
similarly. 
So you want to be able to 

601
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,920
segregate certain aspects of who
you are and who you share with 

602
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,000
people. 
As an example, you know, I 

603
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,840
enjoyed golfing. 
When I go talk with my friends 

604
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,520
who are talking about golf, they
don't have a clue about what I 

605
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,480
do for work. 
That's that's not because I 

606
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,920
can't share that with him. 
It's because like it's not a 

607
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,800
point of common interest. 
And so in, in that sort of way, 

608
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,840
it's just kind of rebuilding the
capabilities that we already 

609
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,360
have today within normal life 
digitally. 

610
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,960
And I think that's where we get 
this wrong is that today on, you

611
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,360
know, in the Web 3 space and on 
on chain, we're actually 

612
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,920
assuming that everyone wants to 
share everything about them. 

613
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,280
The reality is though, there's a
lot of dangers to that. 

614
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,520
And also that's not very well 
aligned with kind of just how 

615
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,400
things work. 
One of the things I love to 

616
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,159
point to is, you know, the 
business aspects of this. 

617
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,840
If I'm a business and I'm 
receiving payments from all of 

618
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,159
my different customers, I don't 
want it to be known like 

619
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,120
basically my real time revenue 
data on chain. 

620
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,360
Like that's just that's 
financial intellectual property 

621
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,000
that I just don't want shared. 
So if the chain shares that by 

622
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,000
default, that's a problem and 
I'm not going to want to use it 

623
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,160
similarly. 
So I don't want my competitors 

624
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,000
to know who I'm like buying my 
supplies from. 

625
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,480
You know, if I'm buying from a 
service provider or I'm buying 

626
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,000
ingredients for a restaurant or 
something like that and I'm 

627
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,760
getting it for a certain price 
because I've negotiated based 

628
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,480
upon wholesale discounts and 
stuff. 

629
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,880
I don't want that to be public 
information. 

630
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,960
You know, that's my competitive 
advantage is being able to 

631
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,720
produce at a cheaper rate and 
being able to do those things 

632
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,760
similarly. 
So, you know, if I'm paying my 

633
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,040
employees, maybe I don't want 
the employees to know how much 

634
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,440
I'm paying the other people that
are working there. 

635
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,640
So this is all on chain data 
that's existing. 

636
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,040
And as long as you can link that
data back to some real world 

637
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,680
person, then you're basically 
creating a problem for yourself 

638
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
in some sort of way. 
And and that's the part that we 

639
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,520
can't really understand today 
because it's an emergent 

640
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,520
property of the data that 
exists. 

641
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,520
So that's where it becomes a 
headache. 

642
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,880
Like looking at the the Web 2 
space as an example in the 

643
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,640
advertising model today, we talk
about data. 

644
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,360
Well, what is that actual data? 
Well, it's behavioral data. 

645
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,720
We want to know what people are 
using, what YouTube videos 

646
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:12,280
they're viewing. 
We want to know which sites 

647
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,040
they're visiting. 
That's what a third party cookie

648
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:15,800
is doing. 
So we're building these 

649
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,720
behavioral profiles of these 
people and then taking that 

650
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,640
behavioral profile and then 
using that in order to target 

651
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,320
them with advertisements. 
How would that work in the Web 3

652
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,480
space? 
Well, essentially what people 

653
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,240
will do is not just the 
behavioral data, but also the 

654
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,240
economic data. 
So I know where you're spending 

655
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,040
your money, not just what you're
viewing. 

656
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,320
And I'm taking that information 
and I'm building a profile 

657
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,280
around you and then I'm going to
AirDrop you in NFT as an 

658
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,920
advertisement. 
That's the the world we're 

659
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,840
creating if we don't do stuff as
a private by default system. 

660
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:56,920
100% So kind of I see the 
transparency that you have that 

661
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,800
we have on blockchain. 
This is not compatible with a, 

662
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:09,320
with consumer behavior that I 
would want to endorse at all. 

663
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,400
How do you fix it? 
I've got some. 

664
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,160
Ideas. 
I can't claim that they're 

665
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,360
perfect, but they make sense to 
me and I think it's time that we

666
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,680
start experimenting with them. 
Some of the things that I think 

667
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,720
should be done is within the 
wallet itself. 

668
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:29,160
I think the wallet needs to act 
essentially as a user agent on 

669
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,560
behalf of the user to provide 
the that privacy capabilities in

670
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,560
the same way that our browsers 
do today. 

671
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,160
So our browser doesn't advertise
our browsing history to every 

672
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,120
single site that we visit. 
The browser makes certain 

673
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,640
choices in order to try and 
protect the user on their 

674
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,120
behalf. 
I think it's the job of the 

675
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,360
wallet to be doing the exact 
same thing. 

676
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,880
So protocols are getting built 
in order to try and do these 

677
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,600
sorts of like private 
transactions rather than 

678
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,720
expecting the user to show up at
the, you know, privacy pools 

679
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:03,240
protocol and, and, you know, 
integrate and, and make sure 

680
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,840
that they're swapping all the 
transactions in the privacy pool

681
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,880
themselves. 
And then, you know, jumping over

682
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,000
to the next site so they can 
actually spend the money and, 

683
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,600
and you know, jumping through 
three different sites, that 

684
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,920
should really be the 
responsibility of the wallets to

685
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,760
integrate those features 
directly in so that it's just 

686
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,640
happening on their behalf. 
Why does this matter? 

687
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,200
Well, when you start factoring 
in things like what's happening 

688
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,360
with X42 protocol, wallet Pay, 
and basically the ability to 

689
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,160
transact automatically through 
microtransactions, all of that 

690
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,000
is going to be winking your 
browsing history on chain in 

691
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,360
some sort of way. 
So say for example, I'm showing 

692
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,480
up at a news article and I'm 
reading a news article about 

693
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:48,120
some topic and I paid for it. 
Well, that's being advertised on

694
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,520
chain because they made a 
payment. 

695
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,160
Then I show up at the next 
website and I do the exact same 

696
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:53,360
thing. 
And then the next site and the 

697
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,440
next site and the next site, all
of a sudden the behavioral 

698
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,600
profile that we just got done 
spending like 10 years trying to

699
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,200
get rid of with third party 
cookies is now permanently on 

700
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,600
train until the rest of time 
unless the user figures out how 

701
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,120
to stop the foot gun by 
switching accounts every single 

702
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,920
time and and having to do with 
the burden. 

703
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,640
So, you know, going back to that
conversation that we had a 

704
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,080
little bit earlier of like 
privacy works when it's 

705
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,400
convenient. 
That's where I think it's the 

706
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,280
wallet's responsibility to solve
these problems for the user. 

707
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,360
A lot of these. 
Problems can already be 

708
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,800
addressed. 
It's a lot harder to kind of do 

709
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,320
so with smart contract wallets, 
which are preferable for other 

710
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,880
reasons, right. 
So kind of if you have an EOA 

711
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,520
kind of privacy pools and it's, 
it's, it's much simpler than 

712
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,920
doing the same with a smart 
contract wallet, But then kind 

713
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,720
of you, you lose recovery. 
And I mean, in principle on a 

714
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:54,440
smart contract wallet, you would
want to have it such that the, 

715
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,000
the private key never actually 
leaves the, the enclave. 

716
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,360
You don't actually have to carry
seat phrases from one place to 

717
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,000
the next. 
You just kind of add another 

718
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,280
sign up. 
How do you see this from an IT 

719
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,440
architectural standpoint? 
Yep. 

720
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,080
I think again it comes back to 
what do you expect the user to 

721
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,960
know if the user is expected to 
understand smart contract logic 

722
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,800
or even that a smart contract no
user you can't. 

723
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,000
You can't expect any user to 
kind of understand that, right? 

724
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,120
Kind of like it, it kind of for 
the user, it just has to work. 

725
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,040
But kind of as the system 
architect, you have to think 

726
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,640
about it, right? 
You have to think about kind of 

727
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,840
like can can I still kind of 
have recovery in some sense kind

728
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,680
of with an EOA or do I go smart 
contract and then kind of deal 

729
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,600
with kind of all the headaches 
that I have with privacy pools 

730
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,760
and the like? 
And where, where, where as an IT

731
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,640
architect, where, where would 
you fall on that spectrum? 

732
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,160
I think more of it needs to be 
done on behalf of the user by 

733
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,680
default, but they have the 
option to opt out when 

734
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,040
necessary. 
I think that's kind of the the 

735
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:03,560
user first principle that I 
would take. 

736
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,440
So as an example of of how I 
think about this as a as a toy 

737
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,480
today is if, for example, I 
wanted to send money to somebody

738
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,040
privately from one chain with 
one token. 

739
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,080
So like, let's say I have US SDC
on ETH mainnet and I want to be 

740
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:24,200
able to send USDT on Solana. 
It, it introduces a lot of 

741
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,880
complexity. 
So how do we make this work? 

742
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,360
Because a, we're talking about 
two different smart contract 

743
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,000
systems, we're talking about a 
swap and a bridge that needs to 

744
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,400
occur. 
We're talking about different 

745
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,960
tokens and we're also taking 
into consideration the fact that

746
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,520
the site, which is probably like
an ecommerce website, really 

747
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,800
doesn't have Web 3 expertise. 
So they're not going to be 

748
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,280
formatting that transaction for 
you in the 1st place. 

749
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,880
O how do you make that work? 
The way that I think about this 

750
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,800
today is that like essentially 
the abstraction at the RPC 

751
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,680
endpoint of the wallet, so you 
know, window dot etherium dot 

752
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,520
request where you're actually 
the site's actually making a 

753
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,120
request needs an intent API 
built into it. 

754
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,040
We need to be developing high 
level AP is where it can say, 

755
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,360
hey, send some money to me of $3
in this amount on this chain. 

756
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,760
And you know, maybe I provide 
three different things instead. 

757
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,320
In the same way that when you're
using a EFTPOS system, it's like

758
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,160
it's, it's saying I'll take Visa
or MasterCard, I don't really 

759
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,280
care, just pay me the money. 
So you, you do that. 

760
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,040
And under the, the wallet is 
where all the complexity is 

761
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,040
hidden. 
The wallet takes that, that RPC 

762
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,640
call that's being made to it and
it goes great. 

763
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,960
I can build A5792 transaction 
that performs a swap and a 

764
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,160
bridge all at the same time and 
performs it through a privacy 

765
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,080
protocol so that it comes out on
the new chain in the proper 

766
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,600
currency at the proper amount, 
and it just ends up at that 

767
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,360
address. 
And then you send back as a 

768
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,520
response to that async call that
came in from the site. 

769
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,960
Here's the transaction hash on 
the Etherium chain, and here's 

770
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,000
the transaction hash on the 
Solana chain so that they can 

771
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,160
verify that the transaction 
actually occurred. 

772
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,760
And once that happens, then they
continue through the rest of the

773
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,200
business flow of the logic in 
that way. 

774
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,120
Like the site is doing what? 
It's an expert act, which is 

775
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,720
selling goods and services. 
It doesn't have to care about 

776
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,480
the design and formatting of 
transactions that are being sent

777
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,360
to the wallet. 
And, you know, the wallet is 

778
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,720
acting as responsible 
participant within the system, 

779
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,200
helping the user to make sure 
they understand what they're 

780
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,200
actually doing to be able to 
send this money to the site at 

781
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,080
the end of the day. 
Yeah, that, that. 

782
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,080
That makes but a lot of sense. 
Do you think we'll continue 

783
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,080
seeing browser plug in wallets 
in the future? 

784
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,560
Because kind of like to all my 
non web three friends browser 

785
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,920
plug insurance seem really 
dodgy. 

786
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,600
Dodgy kind of as ways of kind of
keeping money kind of go. 

787
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,520
I think it will happen until the
browsers decide to get into this

788
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,120
layer. 
What I mean by that is part of 

789
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,400
the reason that Web 3 continues 
to exist is because Web 2 has 

790
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,440
not taken an interest in this 
space. 

791
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,800
Google and Apple, they're not 
playing in the crypto space. 

792
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,320
You know, they might have small 
teams that are operating in this

793
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,400
stuff, but the stable coins 
might change that, you know, 

794
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,600
kind of the new legislation 
that's coming into play, like 

795
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,640
they're very adverse, you know, 
in the same way that like Google

796
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,880
watches what we do and sometimes
they'll copy some of our ideas. 

797
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,480
It's the the same thing that's 
happening, you know, within the 

798
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,360
entire Web 3 space is when they 
feel like there's a legitimate 

799
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,640
use case where they can make 
money within that business, 

800
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,200
they'll get into it. 
In the same way that you're 

801
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,640
seeing, you know, Stripe who 
started in the Web two payment 

802
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,520
space and decided to get into 
Web three payment space, they're

803
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,680
doing the same thing because 
they see advantages or they see 

804
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,520
that, you know, Web 3 is 
starting to eat their lunch in 

805
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:52,960
some sort of way. 
And so they want to make 

806
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,720
competitive play to to try and 
stop those sorts of things. 

807
00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,320
So I do think that the browser 
serves a role within this. 

808
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,640
And I think This is why Brave is
kind of early to that game of 

809
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,960
showing what's possible, 
especially when you start 

810
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,280
looking at, you know, X4 O2 
design where you actually need 

811
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,040
to understand the 
Http://headers. 

812
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,760
Well, the extension doesn't have
the easiest capability, you 

813
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,240
know, and, and part of what we 
do within our design principles 

814
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,480
for this is like, we're not 
going to try and sit here in the

815
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,400
center and, and intercept every 
single communication. 

816
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,720
Like technically we can do that 
with extensions today. 

817
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,840
We could be intercepting every 
window dot Etherium request and 

818
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,440
making sure that our wallet 
appears instead of Madamask. 

819
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,320
We've intentionally not done 
that because that's not user 

820
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,160
first. 
That goes against our principles

821
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,720
in that sort of way. 
So I, I do think that there is a

822
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:45,160
role that browsers play with in 
this, whether that's just simply

823
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,520
at the security key management 
layer so that there's a 

824
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,800
competition that can exist 
between the different 

825
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,560
extensions. 
Or if they decide to vertically 

826
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,720
integrate further and kind of 
take approach more like what 

827
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,680
Brave has done of, of building 
it directly within the browser 

828
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,440
to offer better security 
guarantees. 

829
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,720
Because we can operate within 
the the browser process and be 

830
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:06,600
able to have a greater level of 
control over what happens with 

831
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,080
the memory and stuff. 
So I think it'll happen but I 

832
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,080
don't know when. 
OK. 

833
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,120
Brave. 
Brave is built on on Chromium 

834
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,400
right? 
Like most modern browsers do you

835
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,760
see risks in relying on a Google
maintained codebase here? 

836
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,760
No, because like we have some 
advantages in that. 

837
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,000
Like we evaluated different, 
different aspects that came into

838
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,080
play. 
I don't know if people know 

839
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,560
this, but originally I believe 
this is before I joined Brave, 

840
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,760
but I believe we started on 
Gecko and tried it and realized 

841
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,680
that there was actually 
limitations to building on the 

842
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,960
Gecko engine, which for people 
aren't familiar, that's Firefox.

843
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,360
We pivoted away from that 
specifically because the Chrome 

844
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,840
model is, is much faster moving.
They integrate a lot more 

845
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,520
features and part of the trouble
within the browser space is most

846
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,720
web developers are typically 
only building their websites to 

847
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:10,080
work compatibly with Chrome 
itself. 

848
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,440
So the fact that it is an open 
source code base and we can go 

849
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,960
in and modify it as we wish, 
such as turning off flags or 

850
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,280
adding new features directly 
ourselves, allows us kind of a 

851
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,280
competitive advantage to be able
to play with in this space. 

852
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,400
So that we can focus on the 
things that we think matter most

853
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,840
to users while being able to 
easily just toggle things on and

854
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,360
off when necessary. 
So I think it's actually more of

855
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,360
an advantage rather than a 
disadvantage. 

856
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,080
And if Chrome decided to, you 
know, basically close the source

857
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,360
of the code, it's not going to 
just impact us, it's going to 

858
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,400
impact Edge. 
You know, Edge is built on this 

859
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,960
as well. 
So like, you know, just imagine,

860
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,240
you know, Microsoft and Google 
fighting that one out. 

861
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,240
So I think the likelihood of 
that is very, very small that 

862
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:00,040
that actually happens because 
the way that Chrome works 

863
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,000
anyways is they build the open 
source layer, but then they also

864
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,080
have a closed source Chrome 
layer on top of it. 

865
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,840
Another danger that kind of 
looms is kind of from the 

866
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,080
regulatory side. 
I don't know how much you are in

867
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,800
the loop with European politics,
but kind of here we have the 

868
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,840
chat controller vote that's kind
of happening. 

869
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,360
Well, actually it'll have. 
Happened when this comes out. 

870
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,080
So it happens October 14th and 
Germany currently is the 

871
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,080
deciding factor. 
And basically for everyone who 

872
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:36,040
does know it, Wood Forest, any 
application to have a back door 

873
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,640
to kind of give access to be 
able to give access to 

874
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:45,280
unencrypted messages messaging. 
So I mean, obviously that raises

875
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,000
really tough questions for the 
open and dead. 

876
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,960
And as always, it's done under 
the guise of, I don't know, 

877
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,120
child protection and whatnot. 
In fact, I mean, whenever you 

878
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,160
kind of say I'm I'm pro privacy,
people going to get, well, do 

879
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,320
you want kiddie porn? 
It's like, no, it's that it's 

880
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,880
not about kiddie porn. 
It's about kind of like, you 

881
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,960
know, normalizing privacy. 
So how do you see Brave's role 

882
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:12,600
in helping users navigate these 
challenges? 

883
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:16,360
Yep. 
I think it comes back to user 

884
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,040
first by design, and I think 
this is where a lot of these 

885
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,920
things are in these tough 
trade-offs. 

886
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,680
What happens when a user 
actually is malicious? 

887
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,880
What happens when a user 
actually is a criminal, you 

888
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,240
know, and, and who's responsible
for for taking care of that. 

889
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,960
Ultimately, we're getting down 
to the deeper philosophical 

890
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,920
questions. 
And what I actually like to do, 

891
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,720
rather than focus on the here 
and now moral crisis of today, 

892
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,680
is actually look at the history 
of the past. 

893
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,600
I think it's much easier to 
detach ourselves when you look 

894
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,360
at history and be able to 
understand what's happened 

895
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,480
before, to understand how we can
apply those lessons to today. 

896
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,720
So the, the thing that I like to
cite is actually the 

897
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,520
Inquisitions. 
So the inquisitions was 

898
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:03,040
basically the, the Catholic 
Church being able to decide what

899
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,560
was considered within the 
boundaries of the religion. 

900
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,080
And so as a part of that, the 
Inquisitions basically allowed 

901
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:16,680
for a set of inquisitors to 
censor concept within the the 

902
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,080
world and the the different 
nations that they had influenced

903
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,400
within that lasted for 700 
years. 

904
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:29,320
So, you know, like we just got 
done in in theory with a much 

905
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:35,360
bigger problem that that ended 
about the 1800s where numerous 

906
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,200
generations occurred and it 
modified life as we see it 

907
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,080
today. 
So like what I like to point out

908
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:47,200
too is Galileo, who was right, 
by the way, about the 

909
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,040
heliocentric theory, was 
considered heretic by the 

910
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,640
Catholic Church. 
What actually happened with 

911
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,280
that? 
Well, Descartes became concerned

912
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,520
about the impact of this and so 
he modified his mind body 

913
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,600
theories because of it. 
So what lessons can we learn 

914
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,880
from this? 
The, the lesson today is our 

915
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:13,400
concepts of, you know, the mind,
psychology, mental health, all 

916
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,960
of these things were modified 
because of this censorship that 

917
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,480
occurred previously. 
And this is what happened 300 

918
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,520
years ago. 
There is kind of this like 

919
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:27,560
butterfly effect that occurs 
where had Descartes been able to

920
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,840
actually publish his actual 
theories, we might have a 

921
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,520
completely different historical 
record because of this. 

922
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,360
And so this is the impact of 
censorship that comes into play 

923
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,360
today. 
What I like to point to is 

924
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,440
actually a storing who I've read
all this from, like I didn't do 

925
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,720
this research myself. 
Ada Palmer has done an excellent

926
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:49,040
job of, of basically citing all 
of this stuff. 

927
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,720
And, and it's kind of really 
helped me inform my theories on 

928
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,400
this, particularly just because 
understanding the history of 

929
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,080
this and understanding the 
impact. 

930
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,120
She also points out what we can 
take away from this. 

931
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,560
And so one of the things that 
she points out is most 

932
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,920
censorship isn't actually 
effective at scale. 

933
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,760
So, you know, the inquisitors 
couldn't censor every single 

934
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,200
book. 
They couldn't cross a line 

935
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,520
through every single copy of the
book when the printing press 

936
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,880
came out. 
Instead, what they did is they 

937
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,680
utilized the enforcement model 
of scaring people away from 

938
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,560
participating, or in other 
words, what we call the chilling

939
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,720
effect today to create 
censorship through self 

940
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,480
censorship. 
So that's the exact same thing 

941
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,760
that we'll see with these 
different track controls and and

942
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,240
age verifications and things of 
that nature is actually the goal

943
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:39,160
here isn't to scale the 
censorship model in the same 

944
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,080
sort of way. 
It'll it certainly will scale 

945
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,120
better than, you know, somebody 
individually crossing out lines 

946
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,920
and stuff like that. 
And that is something to be 

947
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,800
worried about as well as the 
algorithmic capabilities to 

948
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,760
censor. 
But ultimately what it comes 

949
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,320
back to is how many Descartes 
are we going to have where 

950
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,080
people choose to self censor 
their ideas because they're 

951
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,280
worried about it not sitting 
within the Overton window of 

952
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,840
today's time, even though it 
might fit within the Overton 

953
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:15,120
window in the next 50 years. 
Yeah, Yeah, that's, that's a 

954
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:16,840
tough discussion to have, isn't 
it? 

955
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,720
If you, if you look at the 
discourse, the public discourse 

956
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:27,800
over the last, say 10 or 15 
years, it feels like it's become

957
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:35,440
a lot more divisive and kind of 
it relies a lot on self 

958
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:41,160
censorship and kind of things 
that are in my eyes, completely 

959
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:49,920
within the realm of what someone
should be allowed to say are in 

960
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:58,000
some way suppressed by society. 
What what's, what's your view on

961
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:05,640
this and how do we, how do we 
kind of revert this development?

962
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,280
Yeah. 
So to get us back on topic, I'll

963
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,280
tie it back to how it impacts 
the web. 

964
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:12,600
Thank. 
You. 

965
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:18,400
You're welcome. 
So if we consider the thesis 

966
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,920
that Facebook originally started
with and most social media 

967
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,080
platforms started with, it's 
meant to be kind of the town 

968
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,680
hall of, of basically everybody 
participating and sharing their 

969
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,600
ideas. 
So if it's meant to be speech, 

970
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,360
who gets to decide what is said?
Ultimately it comes back to 

971
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,880
there is a an inherent social 
contract that exists between 

972
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,040
each of us as we communicate. 
You know, we all set boundaries.

973
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,600
When somebody talks about 
something, we may say, hey, I 

974
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,400
don't, I'm not interested in 
that conversation, or we may 

975
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,440
change the topic. 
How do we do that? 

976
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,480
Online is really what it comes 
back to. 

977
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,920
What tools are we putting in the
hands of people in order to do 

978
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,560
that on social media today and 
who has the power to enforce 

979
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,280
those sorts of tools? 
I think Tim Berners Lee in his 

980
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,640
new book actually highlights 
this very well. 

981
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,280
One of the problems that exists 
is the fact that the engagement 

982
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,000
model and the business model of 
a lot of these social media 

983
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:18,320
websites are designed in such a 
way that they create essentially

984
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,680
like classification filters or 
as he refers to them, 

985
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,840
collaboration filters. 
So what that is, is basically 

986
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,640
they build a profile on me and 
they see what interests me and 

987
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,560
what causes me to engage, and 
they represent that content to 

988
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,840
some other user. 
So how as a user do I get to 

989
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,760
decide when I've had enough of 
that content and be able to 

990
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,000
enforce that? 
That can either happen in a 

991
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,640
centralized way where, you know,
I can go to Facebook. 

992
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,760
I can't say, you know, disengage
with these topics. 

993
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,400
I can, you know, mainly go 
through and dislike it and try 

994
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,640
to modify my algorithm in some 
sort of way. 

995
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,040
Or one of the things that I have
been exploring is this idea very

996
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:04,000
similar to what Blue Sky 
moderation lists are doing is 

997
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,800
essentially could you utilize, 
you know, ad blocking lists or 

998
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,480
some sort of filter lists or 
moderation lists to be able to 

999
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,320
automatically block this content
client side in such a way that 

1000
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,160
the algorithm sees it as well. 
The user didn't engage with 

1001
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,160
this, so I'll stop showing them 
that content. 

1002
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,160
And then what you do is you 
naturally are going to create 

1003
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,160
more unification within the 
collaboration filters on these 

1004
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,120
different sites in such a way 
that that will prevent the 

1005
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,360
divisiveness because it'll just 
create this kind of like 

1006
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,320
feedback loop of creating more 
collaborativeness as people 

1007
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,080
choose to disengage with this 
divisive content. 

1008
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,040
I like this in principle. 
I think the fact of the matter 

1009
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:49,000
remains that people like the 
divisiveness of it, right? 

1010
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Kind of like some people kind of
they relish in this, right? 

1011
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,000
So kind of because you clearly 
know you're on the right side, 

1012
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,680
one thing that kind of one 
measure that I've always been a 

1013
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:10,920
fan of is forcing big social 
media companies to open kind of 

1014
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:18,200
too often API for other people 
to kind of come in and lay over 

1015
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,400
other sort algorithms. 
So kind of like for Twitter, 

1016
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,280
Twitter basically has 2 
settings. 

1017
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,200
One is kind of the for you. 
And I don't know whether that's 

1018
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,920
different for anyone else. 
But for me that's basically 

1019
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,520
TikTok style videos that kind of
like I don't want to be shown 

1020
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,240
kind of it's, it's kind of the 
the kind of content that kind of

1021
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,320
you have to look at because it 
moves, but you hate yourself for

1022
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,000
it. 
So kind of like I don't, I don't

1023
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,000
have this. 
I don't, I don't look at that 

1024
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,880
tab and then the other tab is 
following and basically that one

1025
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,000
shows you everything and kind of
you want some sort of moderation

1026
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,400
because I don't want to know 
every time Reuters kind of 

1027
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:01,240
publishes an update on something
because 98% of them are not 

1028
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,600
relevant to me and I do not want
to be showing them. 

1029
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:09,200
So kind of having some 
modularity here where kind of 

1030
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,160
there are plug and play systems 
where I say, OK, I get to choose

1031
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,600
from these algorithms or I can 
pay for kind of a premium 

1032
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,840
premium one or whatever. 
I think this is something where 

1033
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:25,000
regulation can really come in 
and do something useful for 

1034
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,240
people because kind of social 
media platforms, Ah, naturally 

1035
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,920
imagined monopolies, right? 
Kind of like you can't say, OK, 

1036
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,840
we had split up Twitter kind of 
like you did with, I don't know,

1037
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,360
United Fruits sort of thing, 
right? 

1038
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,640
Kind of like you can't, you 
can't say you get this part of 

1039
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,320
the country, you get that part 
of the country. 

1040
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,920
It's good, doesn't it Doesn't 
work because it it's just much 

1041
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,480
better if more people are on it 
than kind of like if you have 

1042
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,760
two smaller ones, where do you 
fall on that? 

1043
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,680
I think. 
Doing it at a regulatory level 

1044
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,680
likely just shifts who decides 
the algorithm from private to 

1045
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,040
public services. 
And so then you're back to the 

1046
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,160
question of do you trust the the
public institutions more than 

1047
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,520
the private institutions? 
Oh no no, I want other. 

1048
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,120
People to kind of be able to 
kind of offer these kinds of so 

1049
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,400
kind of I, I want to be able to 
kind of plug in the Kyle 

1050
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,000
algorithm for Twitter and and 
then kind of I get the Kyle, I 

1051
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,200
get the Kyle feed kind of like 
prioritized by whatever kind of 

1052
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,080
like your filters are. 
I don't want governments to kind

1053
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,640
of take over this part at all. 
I kind of. 

1054
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,880
I just want big social media 
companies to have to open source

1055
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,880
this API, yeah. 
That makes sense. 

1056
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,560
I don't know. 
Are you familiar with Brave 

1057
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:39,280
goggles within our search 
engine? 

1058
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,400
No, I'm not. 
So we do exactly. 

1059
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,400
This we have the ability to be 
able to do what's called 

1060
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,880
boosting and disregarding 
different URLs within the the 

1061
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,080
search engine itself so that you
can actually modify your search 

1062
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:54,800
results. 
Some people use them, some 

1063
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,640
people don't. 
There are lists that are being 

1064
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,880
built. 
We put out some some public 

1065
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,960
lists as well. 
But this is exactly that because

1066
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,240
in our view this is user versed.
You know this is how you use a 

1067
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,000
search engine so that you can be
able to see it. 

1068
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,520
So like the the best way to 
explain this is like you can 

1069
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,240
actually subscribe to a Google 
that's for the left and then at 

1070
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,440
the same time you could turn off
that Google and then you can 

1071
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,200
turn on for the right. 
And so you can view political 

1072
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,800
content in different sorts of 
like biases, but you can see it 

1073
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,880
in the transparent way, you 
know, like what the results of 

1074
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,760
the engine are and you get to 
control it in that sort of so 

1075
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,440
this out. 
That's very core. 

1076
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,360
Now, what's your perforce? 
On everyone. 

1077
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:43,400
So this is where I think I, I 
kind of am worried about that. 

1078
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,520
I worry that when governments 
step in and try and force kind 

1079
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,960
of this requirement, there's 
this subtle pushback that occurs

1080
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,400
between these different tech 
companies depending on if 

1081
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,440
they're actually willing to 
participate or not. 

1082
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:02,480
So like looking at how Apple has
chosen to engage with open web 

1083
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,520
advocacy and some of the 
regulations around the 

1084
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,960
requirement to open up Webkit 
and stuff like that, you know, 

1085
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,720
Apple has been maliciously 
compliant in the way that 

1086
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:16,120
they've done it. 
They've they've met their 

1087
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,040
compliance regards, but they've 
done it in such a way that's not

1088
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:23,200
actually given us the 
capabilities as users to decide 

1089
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,040
what we actually want. 
And that's because their 

1090
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,000
business interests don't align 
with it similarly. 

1091
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,040
So, you know, like what you have
to take into consideration is 

1092
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,520
how do you set your defaults? 
How do you choose these sorts of

1093
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,680
things for the users? 
Because the power defaults still

1094
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,320
do exist. 
You know, that's the whole 

1095
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,400
reason that default screens 
within the EU have worked well 

1096
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:49,200
and has helped Brave is because 
no longer can Google or Apple 

1097
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,720
say you have to use Chrome or 
you have to use Safari on, on 

1098
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,320
the mobile devices. 
Now we create these sorts of 

1099
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,720
consent screens where or user 
choice screen where people can 

1100
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,200
choose the browser. 
And so I think that creates the 

1101
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,560
same problem with the 
algorithmic decision making is 

1102
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:07,760
who do I delegate that 
responsibility to? 

1103
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,840
And you're going to see this 
natural kind of creation of like

1104
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:13,960
some lists are going to be 
excellent. 

1105
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,920
You know, maybe I'm the 
dedicated person who just likes 

1106
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,640
modifying my algorithm all the 
time and I do it for my own 

1107
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:21,800
needs. 
And then other people come 

1108
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,040
complaining to me and I'm like, 
sure, I'll help you and I'll 

1109
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,400
build it for you. 
But then what happens when we 

1110
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,520
have a business step in and go, 
hey, I'm going to be a full time

1111
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,840
person who just builds 
moderation lists, you know, to 

1112
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,200
protect safe search content. 
And then I'll sell that to the 

1113
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,160
parents. 
And no longer is it about, you 

1114
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,400
know, trying to, to help people 
to regulate the content of what 

1115
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,080
their kids see, But instead it's
like, hey, as a parent, you have

1116
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,360
to pay for this. 
So you're probably not going to 

1117
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,960
do that because you have a 
choice of buying your kids milk 

1118
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,000
for the week or buying, you 
know, the, the online TikTok 

1119
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,800
algorithm content that, you 
know, they're seeing behind the 

1120
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,360
scenes. 
And, you know, they'd probably 

1121
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,600
want to eat before, you know, 
having access to TikTok, even 

1122
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,520
though TikTok is where we spend 
more of our time. 

1123
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:10,840
So I'm concerned that it sets up
perverse incentives, but in 

1124
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,000
principle, I fully agree that we
need algorithmic transparency 

1125
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,640
and we need user choice. 
I'm just not sure how you do it 

1126
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,800
in such a way that aligns 
business incentives with that 

1127
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,400
without going down the 
regulatory approach and 

1128
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,520
introducing kind of secondary 
effects that we just don't 

1129
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:30,800
understand it. 
If you look into into the future

1130
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:37,440
for Braif, say you look ahead 
five years, what would success 

1131
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:44,760
look like for Braif? 
I think a big part of it is user

1132
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,880
growth. 
We need to continue to see that 

1133
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,280
that user growth because you 
know, the more users you have, 

1134
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,200
the more that we're able to 
provide better services, the 

1135
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,960
more engineers we can have on 
hand to be able to build more 

1136
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,040
capabilities and and more 
things. 

1137
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:03,240
So continuing to grow in that 
sort of sense, I think is a big 

1138
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:08,480
part of it, Diversification of 
different products and services 

1139
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,320
that we see generating revenue. 
So today we have premium 

1140
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,600
services, you know, Brendan 
posts us on Twitter every month 

1141
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:17,160
when we post our growth numbers.
We've got premium services, we 

1142
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,240
do crypto deals, we've got 
search ads. 

1143
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,120
You know, we've got, you know, 
many different lines of 

1144
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:23,720
business. 
And being able to expand in 

1145
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,640
those different ways helps us to
be able to grow as a business so

1146
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,040
that we can focus on, you know, 
the user's needs. 

1147
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:34,720
And then with that as well-being
able to utilize that user growth

1148
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,800
to be able to go influence 
what's happening within the tech

1149
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,880
standards and, and those sorts 
of things today. 

1150
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,160
So, you know, one of the things 
that we are very acutely aware 

1151
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,400
of is the fact that we have more
users allows us to step into W3C

1152
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,320
and be able to argue for 
different sorts of things. 

1153
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,080
You know, Google, because they 
own a natural monopoly within 

1154
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,000
the browser space, they also own
a natural monopoly on the 

1155
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,680
direction the web goes. 
We can choose to turn off 

1156
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,440
features if we want, but the 
reality is if Chrome ships it, 

1157
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,040
that's what web developers build
against. 

1158
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,760
So being able to continue to 
grow and continue to get users 

1159
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,320
using our stuff allows us to 
advocate on behalf of the user 

1160
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,520
more to push back against the 
way that big tech is working 

1161
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,880
today and kind of force a new 
competitive nature to exist so 

1162
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,560
that, you know, we don't need 
regulators to step in. 

1163
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,040
Instead, we can actually use 
just kind of the natural 

1164
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,440
marketplace to be able to 
compete and force Google to have

1165
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,120
to change how they act. 
Yeah. 

1166
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,720
And personally, what are you 
excited to be working on next? 

1167
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,000
For me, I love that the 
stablecoin stuff came about. 

1168
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,760
I want private payments like 
that. 

1169
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,640
That is the thing that I care 
about most is like, I want 

1170
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:51,840
private payments on an open 
protocol. 

1171
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:57,080
As Zuko put it, best on Twitter.
Permission was private, money 

1172
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,160
was the cash. 
I want that to be the default 

1173
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,240
for all Web 3 stuff. 
And I want that to be to take 

1174
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,320
the Web 3 stuff and come back 
and meet the web two people 

1175
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,440
where they're at and be able to 
show them the capabilities and 

1176
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,120
and create a competitive 
advantage. 

1177
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:15,720
So that, you know, the credit 
card natural duopoly that we 

1178
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,680
have today with MasterCard and 
Visa are being forced staff to 

1179
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,040
compete against the crypto rails
and stuff like that. 

1180
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,640
So to me, that's where I want to
spend some time. 

1181
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,440
I am also very interested in 
what's happening with social 

1182
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,520
media. 
How can we help to build these 

1183
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,800
things, acting as a user agent 
to be able to improve these 

1184
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:34,600
sorts of things? 
So I'm keeping an eye on what's 

1185
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,360
happening in blue skies, some of
the new challenges that, you 

1186
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:39,240
know, they're they're being 
faced with and how they're 

1187
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,560
approaching the problems and, 
and trying to reinvent it. 

1188
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,440
Because those are kind of the 
two big problem spaces that 

1189
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,360
intrigue me, but also I think 
will have the biggest impact on 

1190
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,760
users over the next decade. 
Roger. 

1191
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:53,920
That famous last words. 
Thank you so much for coming on,

1192
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,760
Kyle. 
It's been a pleasure. 

1193
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:57,880
Yes. 
Thank you very much. 

1194
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:58,560
I appreciate it.