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This is epicenter episode 454 
with all hosts or some hosts may

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have Brian and myself. 
Welcome to episode of the show, 

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which talks about the 
Technologies, projects, and 

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people driving decentralisation 
and the blockchain revolution. 

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I'm Brian Crane and Mahir Mahir 
Roy and Frederick it Ernst. 

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And with that let's go to our 
host discussion right now I 

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think is the first time we've 
been doing that for a while. 

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We were just going through some,
you know, potential topics 

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before and ended up getting kind
of walked out into an extended 

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Questioning value, theorem and 
scaling. 

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And then we were like let's just
get started and we'll figure it 

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out, sort of as we go. 
But maybe before that, how are 

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you both doing? 
I'm doing well, I just got back 

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from here from Paris and ecc's 
with such a wonderful event. 

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So, yeah, I feel very energized.
What was that? 

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What was the highlight of the 
conference for you? 

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Somehow somehow I had EZ C, I 
end up missing our talks. 

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So I literally went to like 
three talks my own and to others

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and they still talked with 
people 24/7. 

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It's a very much felt like being
at a conference and easy kind of

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manages to keep that Community 
feel while also having everyone 

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attend. 
So yeah, no, it's it's nice. 

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It kind of feels like etherium 
couple of years ago. 

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So hi, everyone. 
Maybe it's time to him. 

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I haven't been hosting episodes 
epicenter episodes for a while 

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it's mostly because of some 
health issues I had. 

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But I'm I'm doing quite well 
right now. 

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Yeah, getting back into into the
crypto scene. 

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These days one of the one of the
questions I am grappling with is

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the Intriguing question of 
whether the etherium roadmap, 

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Makes sense for The Ether holder
like me. 

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So I've been like this long 
time, eater holders and I don't 

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know, seven or eight years. 
It's this position that I never 

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sell except to build the one 
Company, the company ran and I 

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ran called chorus. 
And the the question these days 

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I'm grappling with is this is 
the helium roadmaps make sense 

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narrowly for The Ether holder. 
Not the etherium ecosystem with 

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the title holder. 
Yeah, you have a yellow 

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Twitter's read recently that Got
some, got some attention. 

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What was the? 
What was the kind of the gist of

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the argument of your Twitter 
thread? 

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Yeah. 
I mean I am kind of like 

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realizing that the Traders said,
got very popular, but maybe I 

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should have approached it 
differently, I should have 

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written it differently. 
So maybe I can tell you the gist

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of my argument, right? 
And for a moment like, for a 

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moment like let's think not of 
crypto but of I don't know, the 

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traditional corporate world, 
right, so so imagine like 

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Amazon, right? 
So imagine Amazon in 2005, it's 

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been 10 years in the book 
business selling books online, 

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massive success. 
And then it realizes that in 

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building the book business, it 
has ended up building data 

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centers and other startups, also
need data centers. 

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And so it decides to build 
another business which is AWS, 

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right? 
Okay, it's going to rent out 

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some of these computational 
resources. 

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It has two other startups, so 
that they can build their other 

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products. 
What does Amazon do when it make

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such a decision? 
Well, it's structures AWS as a 

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subsidiary. 
And apparent Amazon continue 

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selling books and buildings 
building its Logistics chain 

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right, dependent. 
Amazon doesn't say, I will stop 

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selling books and I will only 
now be building data centers. 

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It is okay, I will do both of 
them and the way we will 

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structure ourselves is AWS, work
will be as a subsidiary and the 

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parent thing will continue as 
the parent. 

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So that's that's one way 
corporate transitions play out. 

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Another way corporate 
transitions play out. 

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You can take the sample of Elon 
Musk. 

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Where is building these Tesla 
cars? 

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And he realizes. 
Oh, in a world with lots of 

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Tesla cars, people are going to 
want solar panels on their 

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houses to charge this lockers 
and be emissions-free. 

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And so, on this inside there, he
realizes that people that he 

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selling Tesla cars to will want 
solar panels. 

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So, The end up starting 
SolarCity ultimately 

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integrating, Solar City, but to 
build solar City, Elon Musk 

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never says, I will stop building
electric cars so that I can 

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build solar panels. 
So now, when you come to a 

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cerium, the interesting, so 
what's happening in the etherium

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space in Atheneum, something I 
think that's something weird, is

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happening in this roadmap, 
actually, historically the way I

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have kind of viewed etherium, is
it? 

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Helium is a place where you know
people can come and write their 

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smart contracts deploy them and 
like they can get customers. 

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And that's the major thing that 
etherium has succeeded in over 

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the last eight years and 
actually is helium has Normos 

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traction, like no matter by what
metric you you read. 

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It is usually like 10 times 
ahead of any nearest competitor.

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You can think of in whatever 
metric you can think of. 

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And now, NN historically, 
historically theorems roadmap 

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has been that people love 
hosting, the smart contracts on 

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our Network, and we are going to
create more capacity for them. 

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Through our through the sharding
roadmap where the more capacity 

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will also Be run in 
infrastructure which is 

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controlled by The Ether token 
holders, that's been the 

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traditional starting roadmap 
now. 

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Now if you'd have is Shifting 
has shifted to a very different 

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vision and that vision is that 
Is helium. 

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This, this main chain is going 
to transition to being a chain 

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that specializes in settlement 
and data availability, and maybe

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we can define those terms later 
on in the school, in our chat, 

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and the job of actually hosting 
smart contracts and running 

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them, and providing huge 
throughput to these smart 

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contracts will fall on Networks 
that etherium calls l2's and 

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these networks are by by and 
large done by other people's 

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coins. 
So you have a network like stock

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where that has its own coin. 
Like arbitrament hasn't own coin

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Etc and so if you give me is 
like saying that okay we will 

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specialize in the role of 
settlement and data 

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availability. 
And leave the job off hosting 

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smart contract, daps to these 
other coins. 

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And so in a way you can read 
syrians roadmap as in hosting 

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smart contracts, like just like 
Amazon realized it needed data 

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centers. 
Aetherium realize it needs a 

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settlement layer but Athenians 
decision. 

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Is that it is stop. 
It is, it is It is going to stop

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investing in. 
Bringing more capacity online 

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for the smart contracts that do 
run on ethereum, and it is 

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rather going to specialize only 
in the business of data with 

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data, availability and 
settlement and it's going to 

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leave the business. 
It has one. 

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So enormously in two, Other 
coins. 

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And the thing I'm trying to 
think of is like, is that a 

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smart decision? 
Is it a smart decision to sort 

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of abandon the winning horse 
that you have and bet on this 

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sort of new business line, which
is Canelo kind of like an RN d--

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business line entirely to the 
detriment of your main business 

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line altogether. 
And so, you know like this is 

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this is the Crux of my inner 
doubts about The Ether roadmap 

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for The Ether holder. 
Yeah, I guess one of the one of 

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the core questions nose around. 
This is, if you have these l2s 

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and hdsl to stand, get a lot of 
adoption, get a lot of traction,

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you know, to what extent does 
this sort of Drive value for 

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etherium? 
And I think it's definitely on 

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clear, right? 
I think for sure, you're right, 

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that there's no evidence that 
that happens. 

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And of course, the incentives 
are not aligned, right? 

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Because to this entity is like 
value to be captured, you know, 

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all of these l2s they will want 
their token to kind of capture 

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that value. 
And I think right now, of course

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you have a big incentive to be 
kind of ethereal maligned and to

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be, you know, connected to a 
theorem and kind of work with 

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easy, theorem daps but over 
time, That I become less 

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relevant. 
Can we talk about how the 

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anyone's and a todos OS if 
you're in the air tools work 

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together? 
So busy, I mean the Air 2 is 

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currently need a theorem as a 
layer for for proofs, right. 

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I mean basically I think I think
a lot of the of the so-called 

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are two is have done really good
marketing and that basically we 

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all know them as are tools and 
as far as I know, the only heir 

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to that actually currently has 
five. 

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Is a Bertram, right? 
So that's currently technically 

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the only heir to the all the 
other ones are side chains, 

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right? 
Like, you know using like the 

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correct terminology I guess. 
The less aspirational 

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terminology. 
So basically your point, what 

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kind of reframe basically? 
What would actually argue that 

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most of the value that they 
accrue, they accrue as side 

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chains. 
Anyways they don't actually need

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the file proves Right Said, 
correct map. 

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So they don't like arguments at,
like different different, like, 

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scales. 
But my biggest question, my, my 

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central question would be Is 
helium. 

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Could have could play this whole
game. 

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The same layered architecture. 
Very different. 

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How well is helium. 
Could say that. 

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Okay, we are succeeding 
enormously at hosting daps uni. 

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Swap is a major Blockbuster 
running on our chain. 

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We need a data, availability, 
and settlement layer. 

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We don't have one. 
We need that we needed to scale.

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You see them could could could 
have said this. 

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Let's let's build our own data 
availability and Settlement 

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layer. 
We Will We Will basically create

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a fork of the third token, so we
will call it by some other name 

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and this other coin, 20% of the 
supply can go to some set of 

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developers that will build a 
settlement and data availability

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layer for us. 
And then the main ether chain 

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would continue Rolling Along 
building extra capacity and use 

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that settlement layer 2. 
Actually function as a roll up 

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and scale and deliver more 
capacity to a winning dab. 

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Like Unis, whoa it could have 
done that. 

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It could have done the opposite 
way around which is The current 

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aetherium chain, it becomes the 
settlement chain. 

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But then if Fork of The Ether, 
took in itself becomes a roller 

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player that continues hosting 
units up and delivering it 

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capacity that could have been 
possible or there is also an 

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alternative to to say that. 
Actually, maybe maybe they don't

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want this brand confusion of two
tokens. 

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I bet to you, it is possible to 
create two chains powered by the

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same. 
Token, one focal one focusing on

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settlement and data 
availability, and the other on 

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delivering High, throughput to a
winning application, like, 

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Eunice warm. 
So these are all parts of the 

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branch of the tree of choices 
that are available in front of 

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the theorem community. 
And my central question is not 

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about whether l2's are good or 
not, but why are these other 

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branches not being Chosen and 
rather the main Ether, coin is 

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abandoning this successful 
business. 

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In pursuit of an experimental 
business, like data 

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availability, right? 
So, that's the central question 

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right now. 
Now, because it is making this 

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odd choice to abandon, the this 
winning horse, this amazing 

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business, that it has today in 
pursuit of this experimental 

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business. 
And I find that is a baffling 

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and frankly even is to fit 
Choice, the web. 

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Been that business. 
I am forced in a position where 

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I have to critique this L1 and 
L2 system. 

229
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:26,100
I don't naturally want to 
critique l2's. 

230
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,100
I think this is the cool 
architecture, but because the 

231
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:32,300
ether token is making this 
choice to pursue this 

232
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:35,400
experimental line and abandon 
the successful line. 

233
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:38,400
I am forced to critique the 
experimental line. 

234
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,400
So now we can go into like 
critique understanding this 

235
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,300
experimental product line and 
actually maybe even critiquing 

236
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,100
it. 
It a little later in this show. 

237
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,800
Yeah. 
I mean one one thing as I also 

238
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,500
pay in kind of like thinking a 
bit about it I'm not as as 

239
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,300
knowledgeable as others about 
l2s but you know and I want to 

240
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,600
give credit here to Irwin. 
Who's you know, our Humanity 

241
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:10,000
needed at course one and we've 
had a whole bunch of discussions

242
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,900
are about l2s and I feel like 
I'm more and more coming around 

243
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,700
to his argument which is 
basically and And this is also, 

244
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,100
one of the things that stood out
to me when we did the orbitrim 

245
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:24,300
podcast sort of like, in 
retrospective, right? 

246
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:28,500
Because you have the sequencer. 
And, you know, right now the 

247
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:30,900
sequence is run by, you know, 
one party. 

248
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:38,400
And I think everyone recognizes 
that this, maybe, like, maybe 

249
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:44,600
they can't steal your money, but
one you have a kind of risk that

250
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,700
they may have down time, but I 
think more important is the risk

251
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:52,700
around. 
Regulation around censorship and

252
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:54,800
ok. 
Now someone can subpoena them 

253
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,300
shut-eye chain, you know, like 
so it is always, it doesn't work

254
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:02,500
to have one party that runs an 
L2. 

255
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,900
I mean, maybe it works in some, 
in the case it's like an 

256
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:09,099
application-specific L2 and and 
the gaming L2 or something, 

257
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:11,700
right? 
But I think for General a smart 

258
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,500
contract scaling solution, you 
know, you have to kind of 

259
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:21,400
decentralize and then Audi 
decentralize right then it 

260
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,099
becomes something where you have
to decentralize the sequencing 

261
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:29,500
and now you have to have these 
different sequences. 

262
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,100
You have to worry about who is a
sequencer at what time you have 

263
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:36,800
to worry about militia 
sequencer. 

264
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,600
You have to have some sort of 
Sybil mechanism and a lot of 

265
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,200
that stuff is exactly the thing 
that like an L1 solves right to 

266
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,400
staking and Through those 
things. 

267
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,600
And, of course, the dydx choice 
was very interesting in that 

268
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,900
context as well like where 
they're basically, okay. 

269
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:02,200
They are being any theorem L2 on
Stark where and they were 

270
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,700
basically they're basically 
moved to building their own 

271
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,700
cosmas chain. 
And it was exactly around that, 

272
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,600
that point of decentralization, 
right? 

273
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,700
That they felt that as an L2, 
they just can't get the same 

274
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,500
Level of decentralization. 
So they chose to you know, build

275
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:28,000
our own L1 and I think that's 
seems very sensible to me. 

276
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,000
Seems like a very coherent 
argument and I haven't so far. 

277
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,500
I think heard a strong argument 
against it and then I guess the 

278
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:41,800
other thing, the other point 
Urban also made the other point 

279
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:48,600
around that, is that, okay? 
So the L to the etherium You 

280
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,800
know, you have this exit 
mechanism and so you have some 

281
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,900
guarantees, but the guarantee is
only extends so far as to the 

282
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:00,500
assets that were like moved over
from there. 

283
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:04,700
So now you start having I don't 
know interoperability or like 

284
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:08,200
you start having things that are
natively deployed on the L2, 

285
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:09,600
right? 
Because you don't want to deploy

286
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,300
it natively on the theorem 
because it's going to be too 

287
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,600
expensive, right? 
And then the kind of a theorem 

288
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,200
doesn't really provide you 
security for that because you 

289
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,000
can exit that to Theory. 
Mm. 

290
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:27,200
So I think all of those like I 
do, I do think the argument that

291
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,700
like okay any L2 that like 
succeeds ends up becoming kind 

292
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:36,900
of like an l 1 1 because of 
decentralization and to because 

293
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:41,800
of economic incentives, as well,
I think is very convincing and 

294
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,700
then I guess if that ends up 
happening then you really just 

295
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:51,300
have etherium A bunch of side 
chains, which is to theorem, and

296
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:55,000
yeah, maybe theorem provides 
some other services to those 

297
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,600
side, chains like the settlement
and data availability. 

298
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,200
And like, I don't understand 
those things enough and I don't 

299
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,100
have enough of an opinion, 
whether you know, this is a 

300
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:10,300
really valuable service or not. 
So I think one of the one of the

301
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:18,500
weird things I feel is that the 
the reason that L2 is will have 

302
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:23,700
a tendency to become independent
l1's, is that it isn't clear. 

303
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:28,900
What etherium gives to some 
categories of L2 is not all L2 

304
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,800
some categories of L2. 
So okay, maybe we can take an 

305
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,000
example. 
So one of the most popular you 

306
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,600
know, up Inhale tools is this 
Stark where's chain, right? 

307
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,100
This is the one that dydx wanted
to be on and then they moved 

308
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:50,600
away to Cosmos. 
So, When you think of like this 

309
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,900
L 2 today. 
It's very clear. 

310
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,200
What etherium provides this L2? 
Right. 

311
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,900
So today it's it's abundantly 
clear that the mains means thing

312
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:06,100
like the L2 gets from etherium 
is a whole community of 

313
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:09,700
developers that would want to 
build stuff on their budding 

314
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,100
chain. 
Okay. 

315
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,300
So imagine today is helium is at
150 billion market cap and then 

316
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,500
Stark with their token, dead, 
debuts in the sea December of 

317
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,900
this year at a billion dollar 
market cap. 

318
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,400
Small, small coin needs the 
community. 

319
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,300
It makes sense. 
Now, what does this small coin? 

320
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:35,000
Get on a security level, right 
speakers, etherium is trying to 

321
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,100
sell security and settlement to 
this small coin. 

322
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,400
Now, when you look at the 
architecture of Stark where it 

323
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,400
is, each stunning project, like 
it is like, this is like the 

324
00:21:48,408 --> 00:21:54,400
Sci-Fi future realized why is 
this the Sci-Fi future realized?

325
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:57,500
This is like the first chain or 
not? 

326
00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:59,100
The first time. 
They actually like the second 

327
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,200
chain the first being Mina. 
But this is the second chain 

328
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,700
that act that actually balances 
the that strikes, a very 

329
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,500
interesting Power Balance 
between Professional validators 

330
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:15,400
on one side and normal 
day-to-day users on the other 

331
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,400
side. 
Now, what is this? 

332
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,600
Professional balance? 
So, when you think of like 

333
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,300
etherium in Solana, right? 
What like many will I go Solana 

334
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:26,100
is not decentralized. 
Solana is not decentralized. 

335
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:28,200
And it helium is the center. 
Why do people say that? 

336
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,700
There is truth behind it 
actually. 

337
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,500
So, in etherium, any theorem 
proof of steak, you can run a 

338
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:38,100
validator Fourier, theorem proof
of stake in your own home. 

339
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:40,200
You can run a node for if you 
have proof of stake in your own 

340
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:46,000
Our own home, which means if you
are extremely motivated, you can

341
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,000
verify all of the accounting of 
aetherium starting from the 

342
00:22:49,008 --> 00:22:52,700
Genesis block on your computer 
without needing some fancy 

343
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:56,900
servers in a data center. 
Solana is not like that. 

344
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,300
So, in Solana, it's a bunch of 
professional validators that run

345
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:07,100
run the chain and chorus. 
My firm is like one of them and 

346
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,800
the chain is so massive that you
can't run, you can't run a full 

347
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,200
node for that chain at your 
home. 

348
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,900
You can't verify its accounting 
sitting at home, whereas, in 

349
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,300
aetherium, you can. 
And so there's these two 

350
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:25,700
families of architectures one, 
which goes, for scale and it 

351
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:29,100
abandons home users being able 
to validate the chain and then 

352
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:33,300
there's the tedium which says 
low transactions per second, but

353
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:38,700
home users can validate the 
chain and so Two different 

354
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:41,100
universes, right? 
And like that soften the 

355
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:44,700
decentralization debate 
happening in our ecosystem now. 

356
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,000
Something like Stark chain comes
along Stark which incomes. 

357
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,100
Now it's mind-blowing because 
what start, which in can do is 

358
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:58,900
It can be a Solana. 
I mean it's it's it's design 

359
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,700
this year to be 500 transactions
per second which is by the way, 

360
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,200
exactly the amount of load 
salana handles today. 

361
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,800
So stock the stock where change 
can do like 500 transactions a 

362
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,000
second. 
But what the stock machine can 

363
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,200
do is it can compress all of the
history of its chain into a set 

364
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,200
of small proofs. 
And you can verify these proofs 

365
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,600
in any small computer on your 
home in your mobile. 

366
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,300
And by reading these proofs, you
can be sure that the accounting 

367
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,300
in that main Starkweather chain 
processing, 500 transactions. 

368
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:39,600
A second is correct. 
So this this kind of chain 

369
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,700
strikes, a power balance between
home users and professional 

370
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,900
validators. 
The professional validators can 

371
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,900
use the fancy data centers to 
crank out the transactions per 

372
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,500
second on the on the chain. 
But the home users are not left 

373
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,500
behind on this journey. 
Like in Solana, they can 

374
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:00,300
actually run their full nodes 
and be sure that the accounting 

375
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,700
is correct. 
That's the value prop of of 

376
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:05,800
starch. 
A stock chain has a second value

377
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,300
prop, which is when you have to 
stop chains, A and B, let's 

378
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,300
start where and Minna If there's
a bridge between those two 

379
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:19,300
chains that bridge is 
ultra-secure, meaning that chain

380
00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:21,300
and chain be a bridging to each 
other. 

381
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:25,900
If chain a gets hacked 
completely by the validator set 

382
00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:29,900
running chain, a chain B is 
completely protected from that 

383
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:34,600
hack, it will never process any 
odd transaction. 

384
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,600
Even if the chain on the other 
side is X, this is such an ultra

385
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,900
secure page, and there is no 
custodian set of Sinners. 

386
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:44,700
So, this is like the Stark we're
Magic. 

387
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,500
Another thing is like, okay. 
Now today is like eating 150 

388
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,700
billion stock where 1 billion 
star player is an L2. 

389
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,900
Okay. 
It goes to all of these 

390
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:56,900
conferences, it gets a 
community. 

391
00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:01,500
Make sure marriage made in 
heaven today, but imagine 

392
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:05,000
imagine. 
Now, Yuna Suave moves to stock 

393
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,100
where or the big tabs move to 
start. 

394
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:11,300
We're in like five years start 
with, I don't know, 50 billion 

395
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:14,800
hundred billion dollar chain, 
which has more defy then 

396
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000
Etherium because, well, it 
helium doesn't want to be an 

397
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,100
execution layer. 
So people naturally have moved 

398
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,400
to start with. 
And then what is Stark? 

399
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,700
We're doing start. 
Where is sending these proofs 

400
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:28,800
with helium and then you see 
them is verifying them truce and

401
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,200
saying, oh, the accounting or 
stock where is correct? 

402
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,800
But then Stark has an army of 
10,000 nodes running in people's

403
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,300
homes, also saying that the 
accounting is correct. 

404
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,500
Well, my question is, what does 
it helium provide Stark where 

405
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,900
What is the value prop is helium
is providing. 

406
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,800
If it is not providing a 
community of developers in the 

407
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,000
future, because it's no longer 
an execution layer. 

408
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,900
It's not providing security 
because like security comes from

409
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,900
They're amazing mathematics. 
And the fact that this 10,000 

410
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:03,200
full nodes running in the wild, 
So, when you see this 

411
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,600
relationship, you realize that 
in this L1 and L2 relationship. 

412
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:12,100
The L1 is not providing 
something of major value which 

413
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:15,200
means like that. 
Be this L2 can really be thought

414
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,600
of as an independent chain as a 
side chain and like that I think

415
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,400
are wins argument like that. 
These things are actually like 

416
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,900
Sovereign and so the Athenian 
vision is actually like the 

417
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:35,300
cosmos vision of horizontal. 
By lots of different tokens. 

418
00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:38,900
Now, I think this argument 
doesn't work so well, for 

419
00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:42,300
arbitrament optimism. 
I think that's where it works 

420
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:49,500
very well for any Z key role of.
So start chain the book bars and

421
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,700
these Loop rings of the world. 
This argument in worked very 

422
00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:58,800
well there. 
So my hat, I mean these are 

423
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,800
these are tools are currently 
positioning themselves as a 

424
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,300
theorem. 
L2 is do you think this is just 

425
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:16,600
in interim strategic positioning
so they can benefit from the 

426
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,100
developer Community around the 
theorem. 

427
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,900
Yes yes I think I think like 
that is That is that is like I 

428
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:31,200
mean there are many things 
humans do without thinking 

429
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,800
through the mechanics of why 
they are doing it, but like 

430
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:40,300
their actions are optimal. 
But I think this is really 

431
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:44,300
what's happening. 
So I think when is helium goes 

432
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:48,300
to the world and broadcast. 
We are doing 50 transactions, a 

433
00:28:48,308 --> 00:28:50,700
second and we are not going to 
grow this capacity. 

434
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:53,400
Instead we are going to grow 
into a data availability 

435
00:28:53,400 --> 00:29:00,000
Direction. 
People realize that all of these

436
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,700
successful projects on Assyrian,
they are going to have to 

437
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:09,600
migrate somewhere. 
And the main thing that any 

438
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:14,500
budding chain needs in, the 
ecosystem is developers to come 

439
00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:17,200
and build on the Chain. 
There are so many questions in 

440
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:23,600
the world and so If you are, if 
you are faced with this problem,

441
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,900
what would you do? 
Naturally you would go and you 

442
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,200
would become an L2, the perfect 
place. 

443
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,100
Where you can see this is in a 
this isn't a dark horse project 

444
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:36,300
against in again in the ZK World
which is called book bar. 

445
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Uqba are, when you go to Oak 
Bar, you realize that. 

446
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,800
Okay. 
They are positioned as an 

447
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,200
etherium L2. 
When you start reading their 

448
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,400
blocks, you like their roadmap 
is like, so in the future, we 

449
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,200
are going to be an L1. 
But it's optimal to position 

450
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,800
yourself as an email to today 
because that's how the developer

451
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,700
flow is, right. 
People that are unable to scale.

452
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,600
They're saying on in, Syria need
a house. 

453
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:09,100
Like you can be, you can be that
house and you can find a 

454
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,800
community of developers. 
I think this is the odd thing 

455
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,300
about about the iife. 
Like, this is the odd thing 

456
00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:18,900
about the serum roadmap. 
Honestly, and I find myself 

457
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:21,300
sometimes like a with the 
exception of air. 

458
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:26,200
When I find myself also, A lone 
voice, this kind of thinking 

459
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,800
breaks down for a game theory, 
l2r. 

460
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,500
The game theory and to is 
actually need is helium even 

461
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,100
when they are big, I mean if 
they're massively successful 

462
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,800
they won't need is helium. 
But if they are you know, like 

463
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,300
going to be two percent, the 
market cap of here. 

464
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:48,100
I think I think they better 
stick around with me tedium. 

465
00:30:48,100 --> 00:31:00,700
So But I mean, but like, I don't
know, look at polygon or, and as

466
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:04,500
an example, they do, they need 
the theorem. 

467
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,900
I mean, that is a game 
theoretical to in essence. 

468
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:12,400
So today polygon is like a side 
chain. 

469
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,200
I think like, I mean, I'm not 
very up-to-date on polygon, 

470
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,100
which by the way is like major 
project out of India, major 

471
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:23,600
respect to U guys, like I grew 
up in India. 

472
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,200
I know how hard it is to build a
crypt to think there, but so as 

473
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,600
far as my understanding goes, 
it's a sidechain today with an 

474
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,400
ambition to be an L, do and 
actively working on a technology

475
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,600
to be to be an L2. 
Frederica, would no more. 

476
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,300
And I actually I want to hear 
freezer because like she 

477
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,500
probably has a different very 
different view on all of this. 

478
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,300
I agree. 
I agree with a lot of what 

479
00:31:52,300 --> 00:32:00,700
you're saying so I feel like 
Back in the day when basically 

480
00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:11,000
sharding and and proof of stake 
was merged together as the next 

481
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,200
upgrade, with the etherium 
roadmap, or the etherium 

482
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,200
project. 
And this has changed over the 

483
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,200
years, right? 
So, basically, in the, in the 

484
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,500
last two years, or a year and a 
half was always because it's 

485
00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,500
become apparent. 
That basically we won't have 

486
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:32,300
Smart contract charts for quite 
a while and the shards have kind

487
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:37,300
of been reduced to a date 
availability layer. 

488
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:43,400
That I also have qualms with. 
So basically just become a date 

489
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,100
availability layer. 
I think this is Not ambitious 

490
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:54,500
enough and also not not the best
value for money for etherium 

491
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:59,300
investors. 
I'm 100% with you on that. 

492
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:08,100
The so basically my question is 
this has never I mean maybe in 

493
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:12,200
on E3 search and so on, but out 
in the open, it's never really 

494
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,600
been discussed. 
Should we kind of should be kind

495
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:24,100
of Leave the smart contract 
charting for now and kind of 

496
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:27,000
just go to date. 
Availability it kind of it was 

497
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,400
just it was like, sneakily 
changed the road maps but 

498
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,200
without really communicating 
about it. 

499
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,600
So there wasn't really an open 
discussion in the theorem 

500
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,700
Community Because by the by the 
time that most people understood

501
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:46,500
that smart charts were no longer
in the immediate roadmap. 

502
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,200
Every basically other Tax had 
been written. 

503
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,600
And basically that there was an 
understanding that basically 

504
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,700
would be date, availability only
and so on, do you think this was

505
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,200
a failing on behalf of the 
theory of research Community? 

506
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,200
How do you see that? 
So actually I don't know, 

507
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,199
because for me, my subjective 
experience is I was in crypto, 

508
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,600
crypto, crypto shouting, 
shouting, shouting shouting 

509
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,300
shouting, I'm hit by cancer. 
I'm out of the game for 15 

510
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:21,500
months, I return. 
And now it's like if he deems a 

511
00:34:21,507 --> 00:34:25,000
data UCL specializing in data 
availability, right? 

512
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:31,699
So it's it strikes me like that,
like it's like, that thing is 

513
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,600
probably is like, normally 
theorem communities like froggy.

514
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,400
Slowly boiling water. 
I am the person who's like, 

515
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,100
sitting in a hospital comes out 
and like, put deep into the 

516
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:42,300
water. 
Oh, you're a detail. 

517
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,500
If you teach your future is a 
data will change. 

518
00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:47,300
The coin you're holding is for a
data availability. 

519
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:51,600
Play no longer a smart contract,
hosting play. 

520
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,100
So I feel the jerk immediately, 
right? 

521
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:58,300
So, I don't know how how this 
happened and to be honest I'm 

522
00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:02,200
actually like an outsider too 
much of the Much of the 

523
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,800
discussion in the in the in the 
in the in the theorem research 

524
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,300
community. 
And at some level I'm also like,

525
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,400
I've never contributed their, 
why should they listen to me? 

526
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:18,700
Also, I can and I can also 
understand that but, if I had to

527
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:23,600
guess, if I had to guess, What 
is helium's road map? 

528
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:30,400
Should be one way to maybe. 
Look at it is to think we had an

529
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,600
amazing. 
You had a math major like World 

530
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,800
computer roadmap where the idea 
was okay, every decent lies 

531
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,000
application would run on you 
cerium and we were building 

532
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,600
towards that vision and it 
proved hard. it proved how to 

533
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,200
build and it was also the case 
that a lot of other 

534
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,800
architectures emerged and It's 
kind of become clear that for 

535
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,300
many, many things. 
People will prefer the other 

536
00:35:57,300 --> 00:36:00,200
architecture. 
So, the world computer vision 

537
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,100
doesn't make sense. 
So we want to scale down our 

538
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:08,000
vision to something smaller that
is also very strong. 

539
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,500
Write it in some way and it's 
this process of scaling down 

540
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,000
that has happened. 
And we have scaled it down right

541
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,400
now, at least for the next two 
years to be data, availability 

542
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,800
J. 
I think there is this danger 

543
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,500
hiding in scaling it down this 
way. 

544
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,700
I I think if scaling down has to
happen and I think it has to 

545
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:39,400
happen, then Paradoxically the 
good scaling down is to, rather 

546
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,100
say that is helium will hold the
biggest decks in the crypto 

547
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:48,800
ecosystem. 
This would be my this would be 

548
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,400
my proposal that aetherium, make
sure that you NE swap becomes 

549
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,500
the biggest continues to be the 
biggest decks of the crypto 

550
00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:03,400
ecosystem, and maybe I can kind 
of explain some of some of my 

551
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,100
thinking here, right? 
By the way, this thinking is not

552
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:08,600
related to what I've said 
earlier. 

553
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,200
You can believe in one while not
believing in the other. 

554
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,900
So, So one of the very one of 
the one of the Curiosities that 

555
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:22,500
strikes me every time I so, you 
know, like as a validator, I am 

556
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:26,800
active in so many different 
ecosystems Kosmos Solana, 

557
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,000
Avalanche near I even look at 
silica. 

558
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,000
And there's also some I follow 
tasers and I follow etherium, 

559
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,700
one of the very curious things 
about all of these ecosystems is

560
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:48,900
The decks is the center of the 
smart contract map in every 

561
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:50,800
ecosystem. 
So what do I mean? 

562
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,800
When I say that, you can 
actually see this in action very

563
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,700
clearly in in Cosmos where In 
will Cosmos what happens is 

564
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:03,200
every dap gets its own chain and
then when daps want to interact 

565
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,900
with each other, they send cross
chain packets to each other. 

566
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:11,300
These are called IBC packets. 
And basically, you can inspect 

567
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:17,000
all of these IBC packets and you
can know what the app is being 

568
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,500
called the most frequently by 
other daps, and you can build 

569
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:26,600
graphs based on such data and 
some of these graphs are 

570
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,700
available. 
In Cosmos blockchain explorers 

571
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:32,900
when you go and see those 
graphs, you realize, what is at 

572
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:35,000
the center? 
What the app is being called? 

573
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,300
Most actively by users and other
applications. 

574
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,200
It's decks osmosis and it's like
ten times bigger than the second

575
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,700
performant dab. 
Okay, that's Cosmos. 

576
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,700
Now when you go to a cerium 
you're like you initially, mm, 

577
00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:55,300
this kind of data isn't 
available easily so you can go 

578
00:38:55,300 --> 00:39:00,400
to actually the data about what 
that produces the most fees are 

579
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,900
actually medium its units, swap 
units of V3. 

580
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,700
And it's, it's probably five or 
six times bigger than the next 

581
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:11,500
thing, which is, by the way 
curve. 

582
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:15,600
And if you think of like what is
the first non decks smart 

583
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,700
contract, it's probably going to
be 10 times smaller than Yuna 

584
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:22,900
Swap this pattern repeats in 
Solana again, where radium is 

585
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:25,700
the biggest and radium in serum,
they have two different decks 

586
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:29,400
architectures. 
So one is a club and the other 

587
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,100
is this traditional units of 
like saying they are the biggest

588
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,500
and then the next thing is 
actually smaller, same pattern, 

589
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:39,300
repeat sins, even silica it 
repeats. 

590
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:41,600
An avalanche Trader. 
Joe's has the biggest. 

591
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,800
So you always hear us now the 
decks is like, always the damn 

592
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,200
Center and then and then I was 
like, I started to think, okay? 

593
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,000
The decks is the center in 
crypto and then I had the 

594
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,000
realization. 
Oh, the decks and oh, I realize 

595
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,700
the exchange is always the 
center in a City. 

596
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,600
So, I mean, when you think of 
like New York or Frankfurt or 

597
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,300
London, or Mumbai, you like, 
these are the Financial Centers 

598
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:09,300
of the world. 
What is common to all of them? 

599
00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:12,500
They have the winning exchange. 
The New York, Stock Exchange, 

600
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:17,400
NASDAQ, New York in Frankfurt. 
London will have the ftse there.

601
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,200
You know, London, Stock 
Exchange, New York will have the

602
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,400
largest tree so you realize 
actually like, okay, whenever 

603
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,500
you look at like a financial 
center city, The Exchange is 

604
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:34,500
still there prominent And the 
major thing that's need often is

605
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,300
a great text. 
So if you're building, for 

606
00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:40,000
example here, you're going to 
have portfolios. 

607
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,200
If you want to change portfolios
from one to another, you're 

608
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,200
going to need a decks. 
If you're building maker, your 

609
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:50,000
CDP uses are going are using 
your cdp's to get leverage on a 

610
00:40:50,008 --> 00:40:53,000
decks. 
If you are a building an oracle,

611
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,500
you need a decks, because that's
where price Discovery happens. 

612
00:40:56,500 --> 00:41:00,700
Every particular Dap You I can 
imagine you have been an nft 

613
00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:03,800
where you are like you need a 
desk to trade your lfts, 

614
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,300
everyday app, you build, you 
realize it needs index is the 

615
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:13,800
center. and so, actually, I feel
The optimal way to scale down 

616
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:19,800
the etherium vision. is to 
rather say, We should be already

617
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,300
have the winning decks of the 
crypto ecosystem. 

618
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:25,100
That's uni swap. 
Let's understand its value. 

619
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:31,800
And in the future let's just 
like make sure you nisab wins. 

620
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:36,400
And that's it. 
And if you do that every chain 

621
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,200
of the world is going to connect
to you as a side chain, they are

622
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,100
going to send tokens to you to 
trade at your winning decks and 

623
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:44,600
you will be the center of the 
world. 

624
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,100
That's why I fought. 
This is, I mean just maybe I 

625
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:54,600
want to very briefly respond on 
that, Eunice for point. 

626
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:58,000
I mean, I don't think if your 
mom is like, well position to do

627
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,700
that and I actually I am 
personally pretty sold on soda. 

628
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:08,900
I t.i. and it was Moses idea 
that like having the entire 

629
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,700
chain that's like optimize 
around the decks, it's going to 

630
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:16,300
be able to like outperform what 
you can do running a deck on top

631
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:20,100
of a smart contract chain. 
But that when I sort of talked 

632
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:24,300
about, like, I don't know, a 
very different way of looking at

633
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:28,300
etherium. 
And and that's like looking at 

634
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:30,600
Bitcoin, right? 
So if you look at Bitcoin, 

635
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,800
right, today is still the 
biggest market cap by far. 

636
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,500
And if you look at Bitcoin you 
can ask like what are some of 

637
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:42,500
the things that are like not 
great about Bitcoin or some of 

638
00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:45,600
the things that you know, some 
of the limitations and Falls of 

639
00:42:45,607 --> 00:42:48,300
Bitcoin? 
I mean, I think we can go 

640
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:50,800
through Right. 
So one is like energy. 

641
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:52,900
It has this high energy 
footprint, right? 

642
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:55,700
This bothers, a lot of people 
you know, it's not environmental

643
00:42:55,700 --> 00:43:00,900
concern Justified or not but you
know, has a very large energy 

644
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:06,200
footprint, it pays a lot for 
securing the blockchain it. 

645
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,900
So it has a that's basically 
money flowing out of people 

646
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:13,900
earning Bitcoin, there's no 
smart contracts, right? 

647
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,500
There's no good Bridges to other
chains, right? 

648
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:19,000
So you want to move Bitcoin. 
Over. 

649
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,600
You have all these kind of 
trusted Bridges, the game 

650
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,300
thread, a property is a proof of
work and not that great, right? 

651
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:30,600
So if you think of like the 
amount of money, it would take 

652
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,500
you to like attack becomes 
consensus relative to the value.

653
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:39,800
You know, it's not that high and
if somebody did that both lot of

654
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,500
mining power attacks, it you can
do Network, can't like, destroy 

655
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:47,000
people's mining Hardware. 
Right? 

656
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,800
So, From a game theoretic 
perspective, proof of work is 

657
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,600
like Soso and getting worse, 
right? 

658
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,300
As the block rewards are going 
down. 

659
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,600
The finality is only like 
probabilistic, the blocks are 

660
00:44:01,607 --> 00:44:04,100
pretty slow. 
This route was to do, you know? 

661
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:08,100
No, still Bitcoin is pretty, you
know, fantastic? 

662
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:11,500
Right. 
Has a lot of usage, extremely 

663
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:16,000
valuable but if you look at it 
here, iam You know, proof State 

664
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,900
a theorem. 
Well, the energy for Prince, 

665
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:22,700
that's that's gone, right? 
That's going to be very small. 

666
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,100
The cost for securing the chain 
again, it's going to be pretty 

667
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:30,400
small smart contracts, 
obviously, you have Smart 

668
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,500
contracts. 
Maybe they're not that scalable.

669
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:36,600
Not that throughput limited, but
you have Smart contracts right 

670
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,300
Bridges. 
Well, you have lots of great 

671
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:40,400
riches, right? 
Like, and you can, you can build

672
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,900
great Bridges. 
I games here at a clear proof of

673
00:44:43,908 --> 00:44:47,000
stake is going to be, you know 
it's very strong, right? 

674
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,600
I think I don't doubt that the 
theorems design is good in that 

675
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,000
sense finality is going to be 
better, right? 

676
00:44:56,500 --> 00:45:00,700
Block times and faster, 
throughput, you know, not 

677
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:04,500
amazing but but better than 
Bitcoin, right? 

678
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,000
So actually on all of those 
dimensions, in a way, a theorem 

679
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,400
has like some significant 
advantages. 

680
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:15,700
Is over Bitcoin and now the has 
maybe some disadvantages to 

681
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:17,100
right? 
You could maybe say it's less 

682
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:20,500
decentralized. 
I think that's probably true. 

683
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:25,800
And and I think maybe another 
disadvantage is, you know, it's 

684
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,100
more risky, right? 
More experimental Tech choices. 

685
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,900
And then, of course, the 
messaging in the brand is all so

686
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:36,500
confusing, right? 
Because the messaging and brand 

687
00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:39,800
is like, kind of like, oh, well 
computer, but now data 

688
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,700
availability charting like this 
is, I think confusing for a lot 

689
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,800
of people, but just if you look 
at that, these fundamental 

690
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,900
properties in a way, I think 
it's Hyrum has and you know, the

691
00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:55,500
distribution is very wide with 
your lots of people have with 

692
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:58,600
your exchange integration, 
liquidity is great. 

693
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,200
You know. 
Like a lot of things are there. 

694
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:05,600
So I think if Just look at it in
terms of if you want, you know, 

695
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,400
decentralized store value, that 
can really function as this 

696
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,400
like, foundational financial 
asset in, you know, like a 

697
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,300
crypto economy. 
I think theorem looks like 

698
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:23,700
really good and if you, if you 
sort of look at it in terms of, 

699
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:29,000
you know, the size of that 
opportunity, I think that's 

700
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,200
pretty large. 
So I think that that feels like,

701
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,000
you know, cat and another way of
looking at the theorem, of 

702
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:41,100
course that physician has also 
been articulated before, I think

703
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:45,400
this is also sound money if and 
I think the bank list guys and a

704
00:46:45,408 --> 00:46:49,000
lot of time kind of 
articulating, some of these 

705
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,300
points but it's, of course not, 
it's not the sort of main 

706
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,100
theorem message, right? 
Then it's not the thing that, 

707
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:57,800
but, yeah, I am. 
Yeah. 

708
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,100
I think that's that's another 
way of looking at it and I think

709
00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:04,700
if you sort of look at it and 
that contrast looks, it looks 

710
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:08,800
pretty good. 
And the upgrade looks pretty 

711
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,400
good too. 
Right now, the proof of stake 

712
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:18,300
upgrade. so I agree in in, in 
many ways, I actually think, 

713
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:23,600
Etherium with, like validation 
at home, the ability to run full

714
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,500
nodes at home. 
It's going to be more decent 

715
00:47:25,500 --> 00:47:29,900
less than Bitcoin someday in the
future. 

716
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:35,100
Those numbers will be so and 
yeah, I mean, if the future of 

717
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:41,100
ethereum is to is to be in this 
digital gold market store of 

718
00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:43,900
value coin. 
I think I think it has a, it has

719
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:47,000
a very competitive position and 
maybe you should pursue that 

720
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:53,800
pursue that market Yeah, it may 
be flipping Bitcoin on on that 

721
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:59,000
market to all that can happen. 
And if that happens, it doesn't 

722
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,800
matter that it that is data 
availability. 

723
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,100
Roadmap isn't isn't so good. 
It it's really immaterial that 

724
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:08,100
it can. 
It can actually play around with

725
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,400
any RND market and abandon its 
main thing. 

726
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,700
It doesn't matter because it's 
going to win a digital gold. 

727
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,900
I think that's a fair way of 
looking at the tedium and out 

728
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:22,100
here. 
I don't have a I don't like this

729
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:27,100
spot for etherium and it's not a
rational argument. 

730
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,000
I have it's like an irrational 
argument. 

731
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:34,000
I have I think becoming digital 
gold is how Grandpa chains. 

732
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,200
Go to die. 
The next the next ossified 

733
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,400
chain? 
Yeah. 

734
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,900
It's like it's like Bitcoin, you
know, it's like Started out like

735
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:50,300
okay, like a financial system 
for the word on Bank, the 

736
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,500
whatever bank and Bank, whatever
and progressively became older 

737
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:57,500
and older and older. 
It became a Grandpa and it 

738
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:01,200
became digital goal and it's not
dead yet but I think Bitcoin 

739
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,700
will be below the top top 10 in 
coin market cap by the end of 

740
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:08,200
this decade. 
Yeah, maybe the world needs 

741
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,300
digital gold and maybe maybe 
it's not true, maybe it's. 

742
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:15,900
This is the actually the largest
market but I suspect I suspect. 

743
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:22,100
This is just A way to politely 
age and die in the crypto world.

744
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:30,800
But who knows, it's very hard to
have a rational discussion about

745
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,200
this because because there are 
no numbers out here, right? 

746
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,000
Yeah, I'm a beast, this is that 
this is the bright future. 

747
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,300
Maybe this is how I need to look
at the tedium to be happy about.

748
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,500
It's roadmap to ask you 
something. 

749
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:54,300
So, I mean, all of the layouts 
who faked competitors future 

750
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:56,700
competitors to a theory that we 
just talked about. 

751
00:49:57,100 --> 00:50:05,500
Do you think part of the problem
is that they are somewhat more 

752
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:12,300
closely organized like a company
because etherium, basically, if 

753
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:14,600
you're just very decentralized, 
right? 

754
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,600
So basically there it's it 
doesn't really have One, strong 

755
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:21,300
driving force behind it. 
And I mean basically sure 

756
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:25,400
there's the theorem Foundation 
but that's nowhere near as 

757
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,200
powerful, with respect to the 
chains compared to say that 

758
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,600
solanas and avalanches of the 
word, do you think this is part 

759
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,900
of the problem? 
That not enough of the brain 

760
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:44,100
time spent on a theorem. 
We spend on furthering the 

761
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:49,600
theorem proper road map. 
I hold it, I follow, but I'm 

762
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,500
not, I'm not, I'm not like an 
Insider. 

763
00:50:51,500 --> 00:50:53,500
I'm not a deep deep inside, 
right eye. 

764
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:58,900
So from my perspective, 
actually, from my perspective is

765
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:05,000
he really has Enormous like from
my personal, when you think of 

766
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,500
like leadership, right? 
Like leadership and roadmap I 

767
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:14,500
think Etherium is quite 
centralized is helium is as 

768
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:18,200
centralized as Solana. 
And I think it's a great thing 

769
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:22,200
for both the theory and Solana. 
Because when you look at EC 

770
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:26,400
idiom, When you look at 
metallic, he will give for 

771
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,000
presentations in a year like 
roadmap presentations. 

772
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,100
And I'll be on Twitter and like 
the entire etherium Community is

773
00:51:33,100 --> 00:51:34,800
going to fly follow that road 
map. 

774
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,500
Yes, there are multiple clients.
Yes, there are many development 

775
00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:45,600
teams, But ultimately the entire
vision of the chain is, is very 

776
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,400
much centralized and that's a 
good thing and Solana. 

777
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,000
When I see Solana, I see exactly
the same thing. 

778
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:56,900
It's like, it's It's it's 
anatoly's vision and Anatole is 

779
00:51:56,900 --> 00:52:00,200
just like metallic. 
That's hounding validators to 

780
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,500
make regular upgrades to their 
nodes. 

781
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,000
I mean, in terms of in terms of 
vision, both of them do set the 

782
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,500
set the vision. 
So I don't think like etherium 

783
00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:18,300
lacks a vision setting force and
I also and I actually also 

784
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:22,600
believe all these crypto 
networks need one or two great 

785
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,400
leaders. 
I will set the vision for it 

786
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,200
because without Vision 
communities end up with, like 

787
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,100
debates and squabbles. 
I have seen that end in the 

788
00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:36,500
cosmos Hub also. 
So, yeah, I actually don't, I 

789
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:39,600
actually don't tend to see is 
helium as very decentralized 

790
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,700
when it comes to Vision at some 
level. 

791
00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:46,400
I just feel like I want to reach
vitalik some way. 

792
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:51,400
It's like I want to I want to 
write something that like 

793
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,700
metallic leads and like Like it.
It's like he even reconsider z3m

794
00:52:56,700 --> 00:52:59,200
road now for like 15 minutes. 
I mean like that would be 

795
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:02,900
probably like the greatest thing
I can do in in this short life I

796
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:05,400
have. 
So I'm like, no. 

797
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,900
No. 
It's helium has exactly the 

798
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:11,400
right structure. 
They should be like Vision 

799
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,000
there. 
They should be leadership, is 

800
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:15,600
helium. 
May not look like a corporate 

801
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,700
but it has everything in the 
right place. 

802
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:20,900
I just think it's like making 
this, I don't know. 

803
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:24,000
Some kind of like structural 
error error here. 

804
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:29,500
Is that very controversial? 
Do you think, do you think 

805
00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:32,300
differently that like the 
theorem is way more 

806
00:53:32,300 --> 00:53:34,300
decentralized when it comes to 
vision and Salon? 

807
00:53:34,500 --> 00:53:39,200
Is not. 
No, I think the vision part is 

808
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,500
not so much the problem, it's 
more, the, the size of the R&D 

809
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:47,300
Department with respect to the 
economic force of the chain. 

810
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:54,800
I feel like currently the R&D 
arm of etherium is small 

811
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,800
compared with. 
Yeah. 

812
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,900
I mean like, yeah, maybe maybe 
one way to State your objection 

813
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:04,300
would like what you're saying is
it's not an objection. 

814
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:09,400
What you're saying is In Tesla, 
when when Tesla stock goes up 10

815
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,900
x, it is Elon Musk makes like 50
billion dollars. 

816
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,100
But out here like ether token 
even if it goes to ten thousand 

817
00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:20,000
dollars, each etherium 
researchers. 

818
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,800
Well, they got the grant of 
etherium tokens of eight years 

819
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,500
ago, maybe we tell. 
It got is Grant of tokens eight 

820
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:29,500
years ago. 
It's not going to make a 

821
00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:33,300
difference to to their stash. 
So maybe maybe like that's kind 

822
00:54:33,300 --> 00:54:39,500
of that kind of incentivisation.
Of is helium R&D from the third 

823
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:42,000
token holders. 
Maybe that is this thing that's 

824
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,700
actually broken. 
I don't, I don't think that I 

825
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:50,000
think I would, I would object to
that. 

826
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,900
So basically, I think over the 
last couple of years, my 

827
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:58,100
experience is that money is an 
extremely bad motivator. 

828
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:02,000
So I mean, obviously once you 
have like enough money 

829
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,500
obviously, like more money is 
nice but it's not something that

830
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:09,200
really makes people who work 
harder or that makes most people

831
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,900
work harder, I think harder, 
whatever. 

832
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:16,600
It's kind of it's more the sense
of Being valued in the community

833
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:23,300
and basically control basically 
being seen and yeah, I and I 

834
00:55:23,300 --> 00:55:28,200
maybe we don't. 
As maybe as an ecosystem, we 

835
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,300
don't taste enough value on 
researchers. 

836
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:36,200
We maybe we don't, I don't know.
What do you think? 

837
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:44,300
I mean, II think this is in 
general like a challenge in like

838
00:55:44,300 --> 00:55:51,600
how do you, how do you get like 
a large group of people to work 

839
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:56,200
on, you know on this kind of 
common goal without any 

840
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,900
framework of? 
You know it's like an Enterprise

841
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:03,400
and to kind of traditional 
corporate structure or even if 

842
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:04,800
I'm a she knows. 
Right? 

843
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,500
And and I think that's really 
that's just very All right to 

844
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:12,700
scale and I don't think anybody 
has figured that out. 

845
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:15,600
I don't think any crypto project
has really figured out. 

846
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,700
Okay. 
How can we now have you know? 

847
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,300
100 companies or how can we 
have, you know, a thousand 

848
00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:29,200
people like all, you know, 
driving this chain for with him 

849
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:32,600
and working on this. 
I mean it kind of have, I mean, 

850
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,300
they can be part of this 
ecosystem, they can be kind of 

851
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:38,200
like a line and division do 
things about it, but when you 

852
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,900
comes to the actual core Tech 
and development, think all of 

853
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:48,600
them there's like small teams. 
When you have okay, some like 

854
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:53,000
Cosmos is actually pretty 
decentralized in that. 

855
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,400
There's a lot of companies doing
co-development but I mean I 

856
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,100
guess like you theorem, although
maybe theorem is probably even 

857
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:05,100
more decentralized, I think. 
But then it comes with a big 

858
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:07,500
cost, right? 
It comes with a big coordination

859
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:10,800
cost and it's like a slow things
down in some way. 

860
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:15,000
And then I think that's just a 
very important problem that is 

861
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:20,000
crucial to figure out. 
Then I think. ideally then you'd

862
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,400
have that some percentage of, 
you know, the inflation goes 

863
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,200
towards, you know, 
co-development and you know then

864
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,900
if the market cap goes up the 
budget increases and it 

865
00:57:33,900 --> 00:57:38,500
accelerates progress, more gets 
invested And now a theorem of 

866
00:57:38,500 --> 00:57:42,400
course doesn't have that kind of
Treasury mechanism, but but I 

867
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,800
think even change that have some
kind of Treasury mechanisms. 

868
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,300
I think the mechanisms to deploy
that effectively to monitor that

869
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:55,900
have accountability. 
I think this doesn't really work

870
00:57:55,900 --> 00:58:00,600
well anywhere. 
Right now now, of course I think

871
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:05,400
it's an extreme experiment with 
doing as I mean I think if let's

872
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,100
say I was to start a blog 
saying, definitely, I think I 

873
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:11,900
would be like there should be a 
non chain treasury, some kind of

874
00:58:11,900 --> 00:58:15,200
governance, you know, deploying 
funds to like Drive the 

875
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,800
ecosystem forward. 
And I with him, doesn't have 

876
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,900
that probably is never going to 
have that. 

877
00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:27,600
And I think that's also a 
disadvantage, but, but I also 

878
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,000
think it's, you know, it's an 
unsolved problem that other 

879
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,200
chains aren't necessarily doing.
I mean, they're doing it but 

880
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:39,400
they're not doing it 
particularly well, so 

881
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,900
conclusion. 
We need my hair to have like a 

882
00:58:43,908 --> 00:58:46,100
quarter of an hour time with 
metalic. 

883
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:50,500
No, no, no. 
Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm wrong 

884
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:57,300
and but yeah, like it's really 
interesting how these different 

885
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:01,600
ecosystems are pursuing the 
Skilling Vision, right? 

886
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:07,800
Like, it's Solana Cosmos 
material, Avalanche and actually

887
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,500
which which one's going to be 
the Best Vision thing? 

888
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:15,200
Like that's like one of the most
interesting questions of our of 

889
00:59:15,207 --> 00:59:19,800
these years. 
Yeah, I mean so basically when 

890
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,700
you say the vision, you mean 
vision and execution, right? 

891
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,900
Because they kind of there like 
one pack, right? 

892
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:33,500
So, I'll give you an example, 
this like many men, you see 

893
00:59:33,500 --> 00:59:36,300
Solana. 
So the interesting thing about 

894
00:59:36,300 --> 00:59:40,300
Solana is that first of all 
Solana, accepts that people 

895
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:45,700
won't be running a full nodes to
Solana on their homes right now.

896
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:50,100
When you accept that trade-off, 
when you look at like, Solana's 

897
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:57,400
technical roadmap, you like 
actually, without making major 

898
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:02,400
changes to any of the engines, 
any of the code bases they have 

899
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:09,100
Like this network. 
Today actually, processes 500 

900
01:00:09,100 --> 01:00:11,600
transactions. 
A second, a genuine user 

901
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,300
transaction is not like votes or
anything like that, genuine user

902
01:00:14,300 --> 01:00:18,700
transactions. 
This network on their core 

903
01:00:18,700 --> 01:00:23,400
technology can go from 500 to 
50,000 to 100,000. 

904
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,700
And in fact, like wave three 
years ago when I met Anatoly, he

905
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:34,200
was like will do a million. 
Their sacrifice has no nodes at 

906
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,500
home. 
So Solana is kind of like this 

907
01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:44,800
network where Divisionist set. 
And it's like, it's like about 

908
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,900
execute execution. 
Like there are like, I don't 

909
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:51,400
think there are like major 
pivots that are that are needed 

910
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,200
or coming to coming to Solana. 
so I think like if we are that's

911
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,100
how that's how I understand this
Ilana vision is like It's like 

912
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:04,000
the path to a million TPS is 
like, just so set at, right? 

913
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:09,700
The In this so much in the early
DNA that it's like just about 

914
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:13,000
like executing that path the 
theorems different ethereals. 

915
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,800
Like actually we don't know and 
the theorem is like pivot after 

916
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:21,400
pivot, after pivot is needed to 
actually scale transaction the 

917
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,500
transaction capacity but on the 
other hand. 

918
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,600
So I mean when they're couple of
chain holds on to Lana recently 

919
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,900
and I mean, we've never had that
on a theorem, right? 

920
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,800
Tonight. 
We had a few change horses in 

921
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,300
Assyrian on Solana and every 
time there's a chain halt. 

922
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:44,900
I I is it's a big shock for me 
because like okay because 

923
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:48,000
actually like we are running one
of the big validators there. 

924
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,800
It's like sometimes number to 
buy steak or number three ways, 

925
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,200
they were something like that. 
And so now we have to play a 

926
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,100
major role in starting this 
chain up. 

927
01:01:56,100 --> 01:02:00,400
So I so these episodes they are 
not like media events for me 

928
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,100
they're like you know, six 
hours. 

929
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,600
Hours of my life burn through 
each of these episodes. 

930
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:10,900
So I think it's Alana The thing 
is that. 

931
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,100
At least reichman they published
the root cause analysis of these

932
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:21,300
three down times that happened 
in April, May and June, and from

933
01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:26,300
the root cause analysis and the,
and the patches that they have 

934
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:33,000
these, these look like they are,
you know, like fixable errors. 

935
01:02:34,300 --> 01:02:37,100
Errors that are fixed designs. 
That are fixed. 

936
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,900
There's a transaction fee 
Market, coming to Solana in the 

937
01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:45,100
next release. 
And I think Anatoly already 

938
01:02:45,100 --> 01:02:50,600
announced the upgrade, so I 
think like these will go away. 

939
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,300
But yeah, sometimes like deep 
down, I do wonder whether like 

940
01:02:56,700 --> 01:03:00,300
some cold design decision, 
especially in the consensus 

941
01:03:00,300 --> 01:03:04,300
algorithm is like, is all of it,
solid, right? 

942
01:03:04,300 --> 01:03:07,600
Like so. 
So even I like, I have some, 

943
01:03:07,700 --> 01:03:12,700
some measure of doubt about the,
about, like the core consensus 

944
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:15,900
algorithm. 
But like these three down times,

945
01:03:15,900 --> 01:03:20,200
that happened this year. 
They appear to be like 

946
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,300
programming errors or economic 
logic errors, that will be fixed

947
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,100
as for the root cause analysis. 
So I think for Solana like the 

948
01:03:29,100 --> 01:03:31,500
best hope is, you know, like 
that's actually true. 

949
01:03:31,500 --> 01:03:34,600
And this network will have a 
measure of stability in the 

950
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,500
future. 
But in Solana, the thing I would

951
01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:42,800
say to Solana is I think in 
Solana, nobody's kind of 

952
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,300
actually prove that that 
consensus algorithm is highly 

953
01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:48,600
sound. 
This is different to Tender 

954
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,700
moment where tender mint is like
a 20 year old studied algorithm.

955
01:03:51,700 --> 01:03:54,900
So amazingly different. 
I mean I would hope that in the 

956
01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:58,000
future. 
I see I want to see like a proof

957
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:03,300
that Solana's consensus 
algorithm is like, it's like, 

958
01:04:03,300 --> 01:04:07,400
you know, battle like is like, 
is like sound under like the 

959
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,100
academic sense. 
I think like, this is what I 

960
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:14,200
feel is kind of missing from 
Solana for me, and whenever 

961
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,700
Solana goes down, this is what I
ordered very old. 

962
01:04:17,300 --> 01:04:20,200
Did the consensus algorithm 
break or is it like some coding 

963
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,800
error? 
And this year, the things were 

964
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,200
like coding errors and like, 
those are like less dangerous 

965
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:32,100
and I think those will be fixed.
So that's, that's where that's 

966
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:38,000
where I find myself to be. 
So, where does that leave us? 

967
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:41,800
My hair. 
If you look at the theorem 

968
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,800
roadmap, what part do you think 
should be accelerated? 

969
01:04:48,100 --> 01:04:51,700
Actually, I don't know. 
I thought actually, they just if

970
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:56,100
the roadmap is, the data 
availability, the data 

971
01:04:56,100 --> 01:04:59,900
availability Direction. 
Then I think, actually, he seems

972
01:04:59,900 --> 01:05:03,600
kind of like, doing well. 
Maybe, maybe the one thing, like

973
01:05:03,700 --> 01:05:06,300
the one thing in the data 
availability Direction, I do 

974
01:05:06,300 --> 01:05:10,800
feel genuinely curious about is 
Weather. 

975
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:16,200
The Avalanche consensus 
algorithm is just so much better

976
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:19,600
because if like, is helium has 
to be like this settlement 

977
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,300
layer, then you want stuff to 
settle quickly. 

978
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,800
So you want finality, quickly 
now finality in the current is 

979
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,400
helium system is like 10 minutes
whereas like finality in 

980
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,500
avalanche, average, vanity in 
Avalanches at 500 milliseconds, 

981
01:05:34,500 --> 01:05:36,000
right? 
So thousand X faster. 

982
01:05:36,900 --> 01:05:40,400
So when that consensus algorithm
kind of exists and you want to 

983
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,700
be a settlement layer where 
speed methods a lot, maybe I 

984
01:05:43,700 --> 01:05:47,300
think like that's worth 
evaluating but even if it is 

985
01:05:47,308 --> 01:05:49,900
helium, doesn't do that. 
Even if it's like, okay, data 

986
01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:54,200
availability is the future. 
Then I think actually like The 

987
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,900
roadmap is pretty good. 
I think like the engineering 

988
01:05:56,900 --> 01:06:02,700
roadmap, I have, I have nothing 
to nothing to say about it is 

989
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:05,600
the premise that it's a data 
validation settlement chain that

990
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,400
I feel quite uncomfortable 
about. 

991
01:06:09,100 --> 01:06:12,700
So yeah. 
What do you think Friedrich is? 

992
01:06:12,900 --> 01:06:15,500
I have spoken a lot today. 
What do you think? 

993
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,600
And super happy that you've 
spoken a lot. 

994
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,100
Yeah, I'm glad you're back. 
I see your points. 

995
01:06:24,500 --> 01:06:27,200
I think you, you make very good 
points. 

996
01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:30,000
Yeah, I need to think about it 
more before I reply. 

997
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,800
I think. 
Brian, what do you think? 

998
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:44,200
I think I some I I somewhat 
agree, but I think even if even 

999
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:48,700
if it isn't has a more limited 
role, it could still play. 

1000
01:06:50,100 --> 01:06:54,700
You can still play an important 
role in this sort of, you know, 

1001
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,000
decentralised Financial world of
the future. 

1002
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:02,300
And ether group play an 
important role, and it could be 

1003
01:07:02,300 --> 01:07:05,200
a so divided. 
Like hop like thing. 

1004
01:07:06,500 --> 01:07:11,900
Even if it doesn't secure those 
l2s but let's see quit. 

1005
01:07:11,900 --> 01:07:15,000
So I think we'll have to do an 
update episode on this and like 

1006
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,100
you know 12 to 18 months and see
how it played out. 

1007
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:24,100
May I, what do you think? 
The right time frame is so, I 

1008
01:07:24,100 --> 01:07:26,900
mean like if you wanted to 
convert this into a financial 

1009
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:31,900
bit, I think I think it's 
actually pretty easy. 

1010
01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:36,800
So my financial bet would be, 
you know, like this spread 

1011
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:41,100
trades that you have, which is 
long L Too Short L1. 

1012
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:47,100
So long polygon short a eat long
sustained. 

1013
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:52,600
Long noses, change short teeth 
long. 

1014
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,500
Long, whatever star coin will be
there. 

1015
01:07:56,500 --> 01:08:03,400
Long stock going short eat. 
If you have a basket of these, 

1016
01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:07,300
we can Define this. 
That they will outperform 

1017
01:08:07,300 --> 01:08:13,700
because I actually believe that 
the value will migrate up like 

1018
01:08:13,700 --> 01:08:17,300
so helium base. 
Layer stack settlement, then the

1019
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:21,300
execution stack, then smart 
contracts, then users devalue 

1020
01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:25,500
will migrate from the from the 
settlement stack to the 

1021
01:08:25,500 --> 01:08:28,700
execution stack. 
So when you have like this long 

1022
01:08:28,700 --> 01:08:32,200
polygon, Shorty straight that is
what you are betting on and 

1023
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,000
maybe we can actually convert 
this into a basket and we can 

1024
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:41,399
like monitor it over five years.
So, so I think like the relevant

1025
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:45,300
time scale is like five years 
and I am actually even find to 

1026
01:08:45,300 --> 01:08:50,100
even convert it into a financial
bet and and, and monitor it and 

1027
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:53,200
beings that I see three keys on 
the other side. 

1028
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,200
Knows his prediction markets. 
We can if we can prediction 

1029
01:08:56,200 --> 01:09:00,300
Market. 
If I, this I am, Fine to do that

1030
01:09:00,300 --> 01:09:03,000
too. 
As a as a governance feature of 

1031
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:07,000
some kind, let's do it. 
Cool. 

1032
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:12,000
Well I think we can settle the 
the mechanics can be settled 

1033
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,800
afterwards, but the thanks so 
much. 

1034
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:18,899
It was a it was a pleasure to 
speak with you both and it was 

1035
01:09:18,899 --> 01:09:23,100
especially nice to have my hair 
on again and to hear about his 

1036
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,600
faults in here, which I think 
are definitely interesting and 

1037
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,500
pop working. 
And I guess he's already some 

1038
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:32,399
nice discussion that into 
incident Twitter recently. 

1039
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:35,200
So hopefully, this episode will 
trigger some noise. 

1040
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:36,600
Ocean. 
And who knows? 

1041
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:42,500
Maybe with a like, listen to it.
And And and have a have have 

1042
01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:47,200
have a green tea, red wine, and 
Ponder the future. 

1043
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,800
So all right with that, thanks 
so much and thanks so much for 

1044
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,600
listening is for tuning in and 
supporting the show if you like 

1045
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:57,600
it. 
Make sure to subscribe or leave 

1046
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,000
us an iTunes review and we look 
forward to seeing you again next

1047
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,600
week. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1048
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,000
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1049
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,000
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1050
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,800
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1051
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,200
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1052
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,000
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1053
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,900
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1054
01:10:21,900 --> 01:10:24,500
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1055
01:10:24,500 --> 01:10:26,900
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1056
01:10:26,900 --> 01:10:30,200
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1057
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,500
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1058
01:10:33,500 --> 01:10:36,500
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1059
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:39,600
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1060
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,900
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