1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:05,400 This is epicenter episode 476 with guests at a rose and Kobe 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:21,800 gherkin. I don't know, those is the 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,200 founder of everything, ZK. So ZK, pod, ZK Summit, ZK, 4 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,700 validator antique, a hack and Kobe is the head of research at 5 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:35,500 geometry and also works with Anna on DK validated and seek a 6 00:00:35,500 --> 00:00:37,400 hack. And that's also cryptography 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,900 advisor had Sealab. So lots of hats here before we 8 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:44,400 speak with Anna. Anna and Kobe about the state of 9 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,800 the ZK. Ecosystem that me tell you about 10 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:54,800 our sponsors today. 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So we're here to talk about the 43 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,000 state of the ZK ecosystem because obviously it's been, 44 00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:46,700 there's been a lot of changes over the last year or so and 45 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:50,300 it's been extremely difficult to kind of keep up for me as 46 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:52,900 someone who does not pay attention to this full time, but 47 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:56,800 maybe also for you guys. So maybe kind of definitely, we 48 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,000 need your help but before we kind of dive into the ins and 49 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:05,600 It's of this ecosystem. Let's get some background on 50 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,700 both of you and I'll start with Ana. 51 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:12,800 Over 10 years ago, I think are almost 10 years ago. 52 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:17,700 I was the founder of a web to start up and I was, you know, 53 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:19,900 learning. I was working a lot with 54 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:23,800 engineers at the time, but it was very web to is video. 55 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:28,900 I was good, good experience, good education, and then come 56 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:31,700 2017. I sort of started to enter this 57 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,400 like blockchain world and it was really, like, going back to 58 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,900 start, like everything. I had learned in the previous 59 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:42,400 Tech, Says, I sort of had to unlearn and at the same time, 60 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,800 like I wanted, I remember like 2017. 61 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,900 I wanted to actually do a new project. 62 00:03:46,900 --> 00:03:51,000 I wanted like a second Technical startup that I would that I 63 00:03:51,008 --> 00:03:53,900 would start. But like right then, at least 64 00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:55,500 the people that I was coming into contact. 65 00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:58,300 They were working on like deep client software, like it was 66 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:01,000 like the deepest 10 most technical stuff and it was like 67 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:04,700 yes there were some people pitching these ideas for like 68 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:08,600 you know, Dental coin or like yeah, we'll use blockchain Plus. 69 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,800 Us XYZ. But it was so it was so kind of 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,400 like funny to really get involved, you kind of needed to 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,000 be like an engineer. You needed to be like deep in it 72 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,899 and so I was like, okay I can't really be an engineer. 73 00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:22,000 I can't really even do product at this point. 74 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,400 So what can I do? And somebody? 75 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:28,800 So I had joined parody sort of for like a special project just 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,300 to get a taste for what was going, and Frederick who became 77 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:36,000 my co-host pitched this idea, like, why don't we do a podcast? 78 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,600 We're both new in the industry. We have a bit of a technical 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,100 Background. Why don't we do it? 80 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,400 And so that's where the ZK podcast starts and that's where 81 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,300 yeah, if I think if anyone's listening, and if they know 82 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:49,900 anything about what I do, so I think that's where my work 83 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:53,800 probably starts for them. The ZK kind of family kind of 84 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:59,700 proliferated or at least I mean you started with the ZK podcast 85 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:03,400 but now you have the ZK Summit and seek a hack DK. 86 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,100 Validate and they're all like, independent, but interrelated 87 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:09,900 kind of project, right? Yeah, you also just, you 88 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:13,600 introduce me just earlier is like the, you know, in charge of 89 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,500 all things iike, that is not true. 90 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:19,000 There are so many projects that I have nothing to do. 91 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:23,900 And actually, I mean, I always loved telling the story of like 92 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:26,000 why did we call it the zero knowledge podcast. 93 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,500 Like a lot of people ask me like, oh, did you work in 94 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:30,700 cryptography before? I was like, absolutely not. 95 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:34,900 I was around Engineers a fair bit but we for like and if 96 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:37,900 anyone listens to the early episodes, like I think until 97 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:40,800 episode 11. We just refer to the podcast as 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,200 like this podcast because we had no name and we like floated some 99 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,900 really like crappy crappy names before that. 100 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:52,500 And then someone kind of came around at some point and said, 101 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:55,900 hey why don't you call this? Like we know about this weird 102 00:05:55,900 --> 00:05:59,800 form of zero, like of cryptography over there like 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,300 this, it's called zero knowledge. 104 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:03,500 You have zero knowledge. Why don't you call your shows 105 00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:04,900 your knowledge? It was kind of a joke. 106 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:06,500 We laughed a little, I'm entering. 107 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:08,200 It was like it was a bit of a dick. 108 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,400 Nothing about this. My about it. 109 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:15,100 The thing is, we thought, why don't we do it? 110 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:18,200 I mean, literally at the time, the only people who were 111 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,300 listening, we're like the people in the room with us, so it 112 00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,400 really didn't matter. Well, we called it, there was 113 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,700 very low stakes, but yeah, so we picked that name and then around 114 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:31,800 that time, I wanted to do an event in Berlin. 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,000 Actually about something like, with some of the people I was 116 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,200 meeting in the ecosystem, so I just wanted to throw a All 117 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:43,000 blockchain event, but because the name of our show was Zero 118 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,800 knowledge, I called this event, the zero-knowledge summit, and 119 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,500 then I shared that event with a bunch of people. 120 00:06:51,500 --> 00:06:54,600 It was like, people could apply to talk and I shared it as far 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,200 as and why does I could? And it reached the ear of, or 122 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,300 the desk of Howard, woo over in California, and he got that, 123 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:05,500 like, oh, there's a zero knowledge Summit. 124 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,600 This is awesome and then he applied. 125 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,700 With like, eight of his friends and I at the same time, had 126 00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:17,100 contacted Zuko and I did get strad from the ECC now to come 127 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:19,000 over. And so even though it really 128 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,100 just started as like this podcast Summit, but called 129 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:26,600 zero-knowledge Summit. It became by the time we 130 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,900 actually had that event, the first zero knowledge Summit and 131 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:33,100 I actually do get to claim first because there was an event 132 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:35,800 called ZK. Proofs just a month later. 133 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:41,700 But we were, I think I'm pretty sure the first and then from, 134 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:43,700 then on, like I was doing this twice a year. 135 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,400 So like the ZK Summit. Also, just introduced me to new 136 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,000 ZK, topics, new, ZK, people and that Community grew. 137 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,100 And at the same time, the podcast, like it really, I mean, 138 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:56,500 and I really don't recommend anyone listens to the early 139 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:59,200 ones. They really suck but like they 140 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,300 really aren't very good but like around episode 21. 141 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:04,900 That's where we actually first start mentioning zero-knowledge 142 00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:10,900 Tech and we do like intro to ZK. But from that point forward, as 143 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:14,400 we were learning more about it. So now we're talking like 2018, 144 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,000 right? It's still really early in ZK. 145 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,200 There's only, I don't know, maybe 100 people in the world 146 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,100 who know what this is really. So it's like it just was kind of 147 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,800 Lucky. Yeah, I'm really glad we picked 148 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,800 that name. To get validator started in 149 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,200 2019, I met my co-founder will and I had pitched him. 150 00:08:37,299 --> 00:08:39,000 I mean, I actually it was on my show. 151 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,600 I think it was the Bison. Trails guys, sort of pitched me 152 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,700 on being a validator there. Like you could be a validator 153 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,300 to, and I'm like, really. Anyway, I pitched it to him. 154 00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:50,300 And then we started and there, we started validated on Cosmos, 155 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:52,900 and then polka dot near extended. 156 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:55,600 And then, yeah, I mean, it was, this is super cool because it 157 00:08:55,608 --> 00:09:00,100 gave me like a still think. Like if you go back to that, 158 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,400 Earlier part of the story. Like I have always wanted to be 159 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,100 building something in this space, but it's been really hard 160 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:09,900 or was really hard in 2017 to figure out what that was. 161 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,900 And this validator role was like a really good way for us to 162 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:17,100 start engaging in actually doing something like participating 163 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:20,600 adding value to what we're what we're talking about and it was a 164 00:09:20,608 --> 00:09:23,700 great way to also be introduced into Cosmos and polka dot and 165 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:25,600 understand deeper. I mean, I kind of already knew 166 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,500 polka dot but like these other ecosystems what was happening? 167 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,300 Who are the players? It definitely influenced like my 168 00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:36,000 thinking about the entire space. It probably changed a little bit 169 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,700 like, who I would have on his guess, what? 170 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:41,800 I was curious about well, and then zkv has also developed. 171 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,200 So we expanded past just sort of Cosmos and polkadot, and we 172 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,200 actually started working with Kobe in 2020 or 2022, 173 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,400 officially. But I know we started talking 174 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,200 about it in 2021, you know, like the near the end. 175 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:57,200 Yeah. Yeah. 176 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,600 What we hadn't been able to do before because we been really 177 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,000 partnering with existing infrastructure providers before 178 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,000 that, right? Like we worked with bison trails 179 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,700 and course one and but when we join forces with Kobe, it was 180 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:14,000 like, we could actually start to be early on the networks and 181 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,900 actually running the infrastructure ourselves and 182 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:19,000 learn even more what was happening and it's been really, 183 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,100 really exciting. So that's the KV. 184 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:25,100 And this is also a super nice way to actually hand over to 185 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:27,800 Kobe. Kobe tell us about, you know, 186 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,000 you're part of, you know, the story what happened so far 187 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,500 before you met Anna and, you know, started working on DK 188 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,800 validators with her. Yeah. 189 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,600 So I'd like about 10 years ago. I think like I kind of have this 190 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,800 opportunity in my master's degree to give a lecture about 191 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,000 any topic that that I wanted. And, you know, I heard about 192 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,900 Bitcoin fears before that. Like, I heard about it in a 193 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:56,600 podcast, actually, like the Security Now podcast, and how 194 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,300 about how he was trying it out and how, how cool it is, and how 195 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:04,200 he was minding, 50 Bitcoins on his personal computer and that 196 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,000 was cool. But I never got into it and like 197 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,600 that's like when I got into it like back then and got to 198 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,000 understand how it works that kind of what captured me. 199 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,400 But since then, I left my job back then and started working on 200 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:26,600 this space. Like I've done some products in 201 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,800 Bitcoin, like multisig bullets and things of that sort. 202 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,400 But quickly after that, I double down on cryptography because 203 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,700 that was my favorite. Topic and like going forward a 204 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,600 few years. I also discovered the topic of 205 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:48,300 snarks which I really liked was like looking very deeply into Z 206 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:51,500 cash and how things work there because basically they were the 207 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:56,000 only ones that deployed snarks. Pectin like nobody else know how 208 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,500 to do that. And yes, I was just let the 209 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:07,200 development in startup that was doing snarks for For about two 210 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,700 years and afterwards. I joined see Labs leading the 211 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:16,300 cryptography. There we were doing very 212 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:20,300 interesting. Things around light clients with 213 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:23,300 snarks, which are starting to become more common. 214 00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:27,700 Now, actually, also we worked with, and I've been there, like, 215 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:33,000 we can share about it later. That's where I kind of got to, 216 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,300 to even do more advanced cryptography. 217 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,400 Effie and like, create products from scratch and deploy them to 218 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,300 users. So around this topic of stars 219 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:46,100 but also threshold cryptography, which is a topic that I also 220 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:50,400 really liked and was working with the team Foundation a bit 221 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:58,900 around this and jumping forward again last year about a year and 222 00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:07,500 a few months we started geometry with Tom and That's the main 223 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:12,900 thing that they do today but also the zika hack and the KV 224 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:16,500 with Anna and others actually there's four of us on zkv. 225 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,300 Yeah we should mention our co-founders on that which is 226 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:22,900 Philip and we'll so there's four of us who do it. 227 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:25,200 Yeah maybe Kobe. We just you just sort of hinted 228 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,100 at this thing this. So the first project we worked 229 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:30,800 on together was The plumo Trusted set up. 230 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,700 Yeah. And it was I had been doing sort 231 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,000 of a series on the show about trusted set. 232 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:40,200 UPS, like finding out how everyone was doing these things 233 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,800 and like everyone had heard sort of the Radiolab version so 234 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,200 that's the earliest one that Z cash did. 235 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:49,600 But there was like advancements by the time we did it and plumo 236 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,900 this this ceremony like Kobe was it the first time that we did 237 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,900 like that that parallelization or like, the batching was 238 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:59,300 happening. I think so, there were other 239 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:03,600 forms of it that were happening. So Aztec was doing something 240 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,400 that was also optimized. By pipelining. 241 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:12,100 So you do that. You start that subsequent 242 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:15,500 contribution start before you verify the fully, the previous 243 00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:18,700 ones. But in diploma, we did do this 244 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:22,400 out of order execution where people could contribute in 245 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,100 parallel. But if any of them fails, then 246 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:30,500 this whole batch is like fails and, but if they don't fail, 247 00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:35,500 then you get like, 10x times better performance of that was 248 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:38,300 That was cool. I-i'm not sure anyone else is 249 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:42,800 doing that today and especially, because plumes was the huge set 250 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,300 up. Like it was more than like a few 251 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:50,000 hours like even more than 10 hours in some computers for 252 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,800 every participation. And I took part in the abstract 253 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,000 one that you just referred to basically, you are given a slot 254 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,500 and you basically had to be online at that point in case you 255 00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:02,800 had to have like your Docker image running. 256 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,400 And basically was, it was, I think mine was on Christmas. 257 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:11,000 And so clearly a few years back. I don't, I don't remember when 258 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,000 exactly was but yeah I remember kind of having to be there you 259 00:15:15,008 --> 00:15:17,800 know at the right time and kind of getting everything started in 260 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,100 took a couple of hours and yeah it was I think ignite that was 261 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:27,400 this, the Aztec one. I think that was 2019 2020. 262 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,600 I got a t-shirt. I still wear to bed every now 263 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,100 and then so my husband's always particularly excited when he 264 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:35,900 gets to go to bed with, you know, like Sarah. 265 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,300 Moni participant, which is says on the teacher at number 266 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:46,500 participant, you are unfortunately, it's not you, 267 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:53,600 it's the same one but that would be a pretty intensive swag 268 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,000 print. Actually if everything's going 269 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:02,800 to be fantastic. So yeah, do you want to talk 270 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,900 about geometry a little bit because you said that you found 271 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:06,000 it. Go for it. 272 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:08,500 It. Yeah, we started geometry last 273 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:11,000 year. It's kind of a combination of 274 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,900 research house where we do. Many cool cryptography. 275 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:21,500 Things that we try to show how to use new kind of constructions 276 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,200 or protocols in a way that people may not may have not seen 277 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,000 before and maybe Inspire building new products around 278 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,100 those. And but also it's, we invest in 279 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,600 companies. That have this kind of deep 280 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,200 research DNA within them. So there is a bunch of 281 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:46,200 cryptography related companies some Bridge related companies 282 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:52,700 and some of them around scaling, some of them touch other tab 283 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,000 aspects of cryptography or others. 284 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,800 But, yeah. Basically, we would like to talk 285 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,800 about, with all these Founders that have something unique in 286 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,099 their approach to How to build work products that utilize 287 00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,900 interesting research, zika hackers. 288 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:14,300 Like the project that for the last year at least, I've been 289 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:18,099 super excited about Zeke. A podcast is sort of General. 290 00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:21,500 The case Summit is very much new research seek a validator, is 291 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:23,599 running validators on various networks. 292 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,599 And then using some of those funds to like, do events and 293 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,200 bring more ZK, into the Network's zika hack. 294 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,700 And this is something that came from, I guess, a brainstorm with 295 00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:37,200 you, Kobe, I'd wanted to do is he can hack a On forever and it 296 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,300 is happening, it's still coming, but I've been wanting to do it 297 00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:44,000 forever, but it was like late 2021, and it was still too early 298 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:46,600 to really get people together on such large-scale. 299 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,100 A lot of teams weren't sure they weren't ready, even like the 300 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:52,300 tech wasn't quite ready. And so we were talking about 301 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,800 this is like I really wanted to do this hackathon. 302 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,100 What can we do instead? And Kobe had this idea of doing 303 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,800 a like CTF like competition where you break, ZK, protocols, 304 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,400 you'd find a bug and you'd exploit it and it And it was it 305 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,700 was like very very challenging. And then around this, we 306 00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:13,800 designed this event called zika hack, which is like and we've 307 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,700 now done it a couple times but it's usually like a weekly or 308 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:19,800 bi-weekly Workshop Series. So you have like every week 309 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,000 Workshop or twice a week workshop and then during the 310 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,700 sort of break between these workshops, there's a puzzle 311 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:31,000 competition running and we did the first one in 2021 kind of 312 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,000 through ZK, validator actually and it was seven weeks and it 313 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,300 was super intense. Dance. 314 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:39,100 And it was super good. Because what we found out, like, 315 00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:44,400 you find out who are the experts in in these different teams like 316 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,500 people, you might not really know. 317 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,000 They're not necessarily at the events, they're not necessarily 318 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,300 presenting the papers. Some of them are but like but 319 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,300 then they were hacking and you got to know their work and they, 320 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,100 it was really exciting. It introduced. 321 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:00,400 I know both of us to a whole new group of people that we hadn't 322 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,000 met before. Yeah. 323 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,100 Definitely. And how often do you have the ZK 324 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:08,000 hacks? Well, so far, we've done three. 325 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,700 I think we're going to try to do them twice a year. 326 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,100 So we just wrapped one up. We just wrapped up CK hack 3, 327 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,400 which we decided to do for weeks this time which was like 328 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,600 probably a better more same amount of time to be running 329 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,600 these events and we had three puzzles and I think we had 330 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,400 almost 30 hackers. So the thing is the puzzles are 331 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,900 really hard so they're not like everyone come. 332 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:34,900 It's like only the most hardcore can really do them. 333 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,900 It's the most Stubborn. Yeah, but the the workshops I 334 00:19:38,908 --> 00:19:41,600 think we had over like two thousand. 335 00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:45,300 At least two thousand unique signups this time around for the 336 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,600 workshop. So we like these are the 337 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,500 workshops are much more focused for people who are either 338 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,800 beginner, beginner intermediate who want to use the tools, they 339 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,900 want to learn how to like use Noir or you know what exactly 340 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:02,100 some of these architectures look like under the hood. 341 00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:06,500 So yeah, it was really fun. So seeing that there Several 342 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,200 weeks long. I assume they're all online. 343 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,700 It's like people. Yes, there's a big playlist. 344 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,000 Nice. Yeah, I'm going to there's the 345 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,400 Whiteboard sessions right? Oh yeah. 346 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,900 Yeah, we also started to create content around this so we 347 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,300 partnered with polygons to do the ZK whiteboard sessions, 348 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:27,200 which are like it actually. And then we got Dan Bonet to do 349 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,700 the first three. So, it's like a mini, ZK course. 350 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,500 And then a whiteboard sessions sort of inspired by the near 351 00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,000 whiteboard sessions. I always want to give them The 352 00:20:36,008 --> 00:20:38,100 shout out because like yeah we were really inside. 353 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:40,600 We were like, that's awesome. Why don't we try doing it for ZK 354 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,600 soku? How do people access this? 355 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,500 This is all on the Zero knowledge podcast, YouTube 356 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:48,500 channel mastic so they can check that out. 357 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,100 We're link to this in the show notes. 358 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,100 Are you guys ready to talk about the state of the ecosystem? 359 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,000 Let's do it. Fantastic. 360 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,700 So we had our first, your knowledge episode 7 years ago 361 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,300 with Eli and obviously Then I mean, and the next couple of 362 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:11,800 years, it wasn't all that difficult to kind of keep up 363 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,400 with things that were happening because there weren't all that 364 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,900 many, right? So basically and even maybe like 365 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:22,000 a year or a year and a half ago, basically, there were like they 366 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,700 were stuck net. There was matter Labs with ZK 367 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:28,300 sink. There was a mess. 368 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,800 That's now part of a polygon with the ZK e VM and then there 369 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:40,500 was maybe at Aztec and tornado but in the realm of kind of like 370 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:47,900 ZK stuff that was more or less. It right there was so into in 371 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:50,800 like fall of 2019. There was this like flurry of 372 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,100 papers. So around that time there was 373 00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:58,200 like all these new ideas but I think you're right that like the 374 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,900 implementations I mean there was there weren't that many of them. 375 00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,000 There were maybe just like academic implementations and 376 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,800 those companies really came out during the bear Market. 377 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,900 Last bear market like and I remember like some of the 378 00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:10,700 hackathons like the eith global hackathons. 379 00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:13,300 That's for some of those teams actually formed for the first 380 00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:15,100 time. Like the they would have like 381 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,900 done these little projects that sort of like, tried to take some 382 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:21,700 of this research and put it into practice and those form the 383 00:22:21,708 --> 00:22:24,300 companies that you mentioned. But yeah, there were still only 384 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,200 a handful that's wild to think about that. 385 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,700 And I think one thing that, you know, made the change or like 386 00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:36,400 caused the change, was the fact that the tolling developed Lat 387 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,000 you back, then if you wanted to build something, that is best 388 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:46,100 best Enrique you had to take. Let's say Z caches 389 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:51,500 implementation and try to write your own smart or contracted 390 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:54,000 with verified. And you would have to write your 391 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,900 own like JavaScript implementation and compile it 392 00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:01,900 webassembly or whatever. It was super complex but around 393 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:04,900 that time. Like, and that's actually came 394 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,200 both from The A-Team van, Action with Socrates, but also from the 395 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000 I'd entry team which is now they're messed him, right? 396 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,800 And from Geordie, they created this circum environment. 397 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:20,500 And those two made a big difference in terms of tooling 398 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:23,400 because now you could build something that was end to end 399 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,800 and you could have client implementations proud from it 400 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,300 and then verify our own aetherium and it unlocked 401 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:35,500 disability for a lot of people to create the UK Solutions. 402 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:39,600 And And think that made a big change and I your knotting, you 403 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,200 agree. What I think a lot of people 404 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,500 when they thought of the idea of ZK stuff, they kind of they did 405 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,300 leap ahead to the use cases and then as they started to, like, 406 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:50,900 try to do those, they were like, oh wait, there's like none of 407 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:52,600 the stuff you need to do that at all. 408 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:57,500 And so it was like catching up with the dream over the last few 409 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:01,400 years and those toolkits are so key and there's there's new ones 410 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,600 too. That have come out since then 411 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,100 like yeah, there's many yeah, there's a At. 412 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:09,300 I mean, if you look at ZK dsls even there's just like we've 413 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:12,700 done entire talks on that because there's a, there's a map 414 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:16,800 of the dsls actually just give it talk about it and like, seek 415 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,000 a proof and I had the list, I couldn't cover it all, even like 416 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,400 there's so many, so, yeah, it's crazy. 417 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,900 The I mean, it's all so it's super exciting and maybe let's 418 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:32,300 talk about the OD OD said we just mentioned where they at 419 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:33,800 now. So give us. 420 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,200 Which one do you want us to start on? 421 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,100 Maybe like any one of the layer choose in whichever order you 422 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:45,100 want. So, the casing Stark X, CK e VM, 423 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,200 you know, add text to a certain, I mean, I think tornado is the 424 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,700 one that we have covered, you know, to a large extent on this 425 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:56,600 podcast before but we both had someone from tornado on before 426 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000 the recent events and afterwards. 427 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,900 We had some lawyers on. So I think tornadoes probably 428 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,500 we're good on that, but yeah. Let's talk about stock. 429 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:10,400 Net matter Labs zika, evm at stack. 430 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,600 Well, I think we can say that, like, if you look at matter, I 431 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,700 mean, they a few years ago, they were like they were building. 432 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,000 They were building a DSL. There was like, a lot of the 433 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,100 core research so I actually had them on the show a ton then to 434 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:30,000 talk about like circuits and exactly like that part. 435 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,400 But then since then I think like as far as I've seen, they've 436 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,000 kind of gone heads down to implement and ship. 437 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:39,700 So if there is a shift often like it's it is much more about 438 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:43,200 delivery and it's a little bit less about Experimentation. 439 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:46,100 I mean this is projecting but this is what I was sort of what 440 00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,200 I what I got from them and I don't know Kobe. 441 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,700 You can probably talk more about the Stark net emergence. 442 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,800 Yeah, I think that Stark net was what was a nice development? 443 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,800 Let's say from Stark where ecosystem. 444 00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:08,100 Like, before we had Stark net, which I think started, like, end 445 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:10,100 of last year, like, August something like this. 446 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:11,600 If I remember correct, I'm not sure. 447 00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:13,900 Sure. Before that, if you wanted to 448 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:16,700 use the offering from Stark, where you basically had to 449 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,900 partner with them and they would build with you, this custom 450 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:23,900 solution based on Stark X and Stark. 451 00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:29,000 Annette was giving this ability to people to participate in a 452 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,200 general-purpose roll up. So that was a big change like 453 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,100 that was a really major thing. I think that back that back when 454 00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,600 starting it started, I didn't understand what it was like. 455 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:45,000 Like I didn't understand it the Commendation but when I tried it 456 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,300 I like it clicked, then I got it and the ecosystem, there grew 457 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:52,900 very rapidly. There are a lot of people that 458 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:57,100 are learning Cairo which is the language that is running inside 459 00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:59,800 Stark net. It gives you a lot of 460 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,600 flexibility and power and it's still think there's a long way 461 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,900 to go like it's still not decentralized like most of the 462 00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:13,000 l2's today. Like, there are some failure 463 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,400 modes that are not very pleasant, like things can get 464 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,100 stuck. That's fine. 465 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,700 Like still early days in some sense but it's a very welcome 466 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,700 necessary development to give this power to users that they 467 00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:33,200 didn't have before to run things at scale and applications that 468 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,100 they couldn't run on L1. So that was really cool. 469 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,800 They were really I mean I think they were incredibly influential 470 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,500 on the ZK V Mt. I mean the Z KV M teams. 471 00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:46,800 There's all these other Z KV M teams now. 472 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,800 And I think even like in the conceptualizing of this like, 473 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,600 super fast environment, that's still connected to a blockchain. 474 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,700 But you can, like do a lot more. It inspired people to like be 475 00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:00,400 like, oh my God, I could do this kind of app for this kind of app 476 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,800 and it goes so much further than what you often could do on 477 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,800 blockchain. But yeah, I know that there's a 478 00:28:05,808 --> 00:28:09,600 number of different teams like Coaching that problem, usually 479 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,100 still using Starks actually or features of starks like they're 480 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,600 using some step that Stark like but yeah you have over at 481 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,300 polygon of My Den and you have risk 0 which I think kind of 482 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:26,900 Falls in that category as well. What about how mass and the Z KV 483 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:31,300 M does that is that kind of like we're said it. 484 00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:37,000 Well, I mean, so ZK, e VM, we just did a wrap up episode 485 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,100 actually over on my show, we talked about like the summer of 486 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:40,700 ZK. E VM announcements. 487 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:43,700 There was this funny week in July, where, like all the teams 488 00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:44,900 were like, we're doing. See KVM. 489 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:47,800 But I think, I mean, they all have different approaches. 490 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,400 I think they do work together fairly well. 491 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,300 I think there's like a friendliness in it. 492 00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:54,300 Yeah. I think they're trying to find a 493 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:57,300 way to really scale aetherium. I think that's a very etherium 494 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,600 focused solution. It's like you can your its 495 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,800 solidity. Don't have to change the 496 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,300 workflow, the style, you can really redeploy things. 497 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,200 And I think that we don't know yet. 498 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,100 If there's a winner or if they're just like a, they School 499 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:14,600 separate environments that all have their own unique benefits 500 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,900 to using. Yeah, I think it's actually 501 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:19,000 Kobe. We were talking about this, 502 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,400 like, do we know what phase they're really at. 503 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,300 Like, I think you can sort of do something with them, but they're 504 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:30,800 not necessarily like full-on. Yeah, I think like from like if 505 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,900 we go even higher level we have like two major approaches to 506 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:39,100 Zeke evm today. Like there was the one that you 507 00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,200 can sink was taking and the one that Stark where I was taking 508 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,400 which was called warp there that they say, you know, you don't 509 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,500 need full compatibility, you just need to take solidity 510 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,500 programs which is what people write and compile them to some Z 511 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,600 KV M. So some people also, you know, 512 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,800 photo At what the term ZK e VM means like. 513 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,500 Is it compelling solidity or is it running Evie? 514 00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:09,700 A road is like there was this I think there is still is this 515 00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:15,900 battle around this term and but other kinds of themes like 516 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,800 scroll and her meds and pulling on zero there. 517 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,700 Take another approach which is actually running the evm byte 518 00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:30,000 code directly and Which is, which ensures greater 519 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000 compatibility. So it's not like full 520 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,400 compatibility steel because, you know, some things are more 521 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,900 expensive when you run it in ZK, like hashes. 522 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:43,200 So you have to sometimes modify gas costs, but maybe you can 523 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,500 carry over some security analysis. 524 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:50,300 Maybe you can carry over a lot of the more special 525 00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:51,500 functionality that you've developed. 526 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:55,000 Maybe you've even written some evm assembly code so you can use 527 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,300 that, but, yeah. I think that's in the last few 528 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:02,200 months we've seen a bunch of them launching test nuts, which 529 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,000 is cool. So, a lot of them are functional 530 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,400 like you can use crawl public test, net. 531 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,800 You can use her Mass. That's not all of them are. 532 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,000 It's, um, it's an increasing level of compatibility. 533 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,800 I think each week, so you can run things, but sometimes not 534 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,400 everything is proven like, not all the opcodes are. 535 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,700 Stood. So you will get the feeling of 536 00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:33,500 how is it to use it. So you, you have the appearance 537 00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:37,500 of a proof being created but sometimes not everything is 538 00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:41,000 being actually proven. So it's more like, sometimes a 539 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,000 simulation of the experience and but it's going, it's like an 540 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,400 honest evaluation of the experience. 541 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,400 Like, this is what they aim that basically can use every tool you 542 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,900 you have today and it will work as is. 543 00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:58,700 But yeah, I think that that's just a Where they are today like 544 00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:01,800 they're functional. They're usable not may be fully 545 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,900 compatible and nearly not, not at all audited. 546 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,900 Like the order audits are going to be very complex. 547 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,700 Yeah, I want to talk about audits definitely later just 548 00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:16,900 because it seems like such a fraud. 549 00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,800 Yeah, thing that. Yeah, that could go wrong. 550 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:23,900 Anna. Could we didn't and they just, I 551 00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:28,300 think Jordi just shipped it off. Off to audit, right? 552 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,900 Yeah. So like, I think that they 553 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:34,700 shifted off to others and like, I think Jordi has a very kind of 554 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:36,900 been or like Jordan the team, right? 555 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:40,600 They've been, I think kind of training auditor has in some 556 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400 sense, like, they've been teaching them about what it is 557 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,000 means to audit that code wild. So, yeah, I think things are 558 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,500 starting to be audited, but that's polygon her man's, that's 559 00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,300 the exact you'd asked about Frederick is. 560 00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:58,400 So that's, I guess the Stage that that one's at. 561 00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:03,400 So if you if you kind of zoom out and kind of look at, you 562 00:33:03,408 --> 00:33:08,200 know, the landscape of all these different altitudes, I think 563 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,100 kind of the, the high school question, you know, you know, 564 00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:15,100 your essay question would be like contrast and compare how 565 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:17,900 they I mean. So basically, if I'm going to 566 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:24,100 deploy on a ZK layer to, how do I decide, which one to deploy 567 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:26,200 to? How are they different from one 568 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,600 another? Think wait question for you, 569 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,300 Kobe, but if you're writing solidity code, would it look 570 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:35,700 very different to you to deploy on any of the CK EVMS? 571 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,500 Depends. Like if you were talking about 572 00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:42,400 like let's say the hair medicine School variance, it would feel 573 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,400 very similar like it would feel, I think also similar to how you 574 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,100 do it on your theory. Mm, you just need to change the 575 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:49,900 RPC basically and and you're done. 576 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,600 But also basically those just kind of just transliterate like 577 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,300 opcode by opcode, right? So basically it's kind of like 578 00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:01,400 you just translate like word by word and then basically using 579 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,900 the same grammar that you use before you just, you know, put 580 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:07,400 them one after the other, but that's different from say Start 581 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,900 net and CK signo. Yeah, exactly. 582 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:15,199 They are, they just transpile solidity into their own VM. 583 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,300 So that becomes very, very different. 584 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,000 The security analysis is very different there. 585 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,100 You have to audit the compiler from from like this transpiler. 586 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:32,199 That's what you have to focus on and then also their VM, but 587 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,300 yeah, it's it's very different. So but let's maybe let's let's 588 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,500 not talk about the audits now. So I think we are all happy to 589 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:45,000 agree that you know audits are important and difficult and we 590 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,800 will talk about them later. So say everything is audited and 591 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,900 in principle, we know that it works as designed how do these 592 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:55,500 different layer tours differ from each other. 593 00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:57,500 Kobe who explained it? Didn't you? 594 00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:00,700 It's this idea of are you transpiling or not, right? 595 00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:02,500 Yeah. I mean like doing those in 596 00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:06,200 general like or just ZK e. Vo, just The zk1. 597 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,700 So I mean I totally get that there. 598 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,300 Some that kind of transpose them up, code by opcode and some that 599 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:13,400 don't. But other than that, kind of 600 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,500 they arrived at the bytecode differently. 601 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:19,900 Do they have advantages and disadvantages? 602 00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:27,100 Yeah, so I think that if you compare the ZK e VM once I think 603 00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:33,500 that it remains to be seen, so we don't know yet, basically 604 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:38,500 maybe some teams will go further in the decentralization efforts 605 00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:42,300 and they will do that earlier. Maybe they create some more 606 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,800 interesting environments for validators approvers to 607 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,700 participate in and maybe some of them will have better 608 00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:52,900 performance, although I I think all of these teams are extremely 609 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:59,600 strong and will reach other cat performance and maybe some of 610 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,900 them will be more receptive to feedback or will do upgrades 611 00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:07,100 faster. All have better bug bounties, so 612 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:11,700 I'll be more confident that things are are more secure 613 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:13,400 there. But I think the statistic is chi 614 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:19,000 chi VM is really hard today. So it's more about Titania and 615 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,600 maybe correct me if I'm wrong here Kobe, but I think that like 616 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,700 on the Stark were side, it's all Starks under the hood like full 617 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:28,700 Starks the way that it was kind of originally presented. 618 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,700 Whereas on, I know some of the others the kvms they're using 619 00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:33,900 like fry, right? Like they're using. 620 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:38,000 Like there's like one step that sort of like Stark, a fine a 621 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,700 snark, but it's quite a different thing under the hood. 622 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:45,800 Yeah, I think that basically every team is taking another a 623 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,300 different approach. So like you say, Stark were is 624 00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:54,100 doing Starks like pure Starks with some additions. 625 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,400 The her mess team, they're taking this kind of layer 626 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,400 approach that you mentioned. So basically, they're doing 627 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,700 long, but with fry. So, like the use this 628 00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:09,400 transparent polynomial, commitment that came from Starks 629 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,200 but this is it With Blanc, so that's interesting. 630 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,300 And then they do snarks on top of that to optimize the 631 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:21,300 verification and the scroll, and the same Foundation teams. 632 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:27,000 But they are doing, they're doing long with this kcg 633 00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,000 commitment, which is, it's a trusted setup, but it's 634 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,100 universal one so that you can reuse it. 635 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,600 And they're doing a very complex architecture of many circuits 636 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,800 that interact with each other and they do. 637 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,100 The kind of recursive layer composition until they reach the 638 00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:50,200 evm itself, or the layer, 1 itself where they verified. 639 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,900 But just just as a side note, there is a very good right up 640 00:37:55,900 --> 00:38:01,400 from a real Gap ISM that describes how you go from air to 641 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:04,700 wraps, which wraps is kind of long. 642 00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:13,900 And it shows how similar Starks and along with fry our, ah, 643 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:20,100 which kind of bridges this gap, which, which she chose, how like 644 00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:22,000 that basically. Everything is very, very 645 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,100 similar. You just let one another thing 646 00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:28,100 and then it becomes one with fry instead of Stark so it's really 647 00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:31,300 cool. Okay, if you if you got none of 648 00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:34,600 this we will link to the to the paper. 649 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,600 It'll be referred to in the show notes I'm sorry. 650 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,800 So basically maybe can I can I kind of summarize this with in 651 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,000 principle all of these tools do the same thing and which one is 652 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,000 best remains to be seen when they're live and operational and 653 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,200 some of them have failed or not failed and, you know, gone up in 654 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,800 Flames for zucchini, evm. I think that's true. 655 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,700 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's Best Buy which by 656 00:39:01,700 --> 00:39:05,400 which metric is probably also worth because there is that 657 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,100 aspect of it being decentralized or not, like you might actually 658 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,200 suffer. Exactly. 659 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,300 Might suffer some performance but you'll get like a more 660 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:15,000 secure system in a way. Yeah, exactly. 661 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:18,800 But and all of them currently, I mean, none of them actually have 662 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,700 a decentralized sequencer, right? 663 00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,700 No, not yet. So, all of them have like a 664 00:39:23,707 --> 00:39:26,200 centralized choke point. So it doesn't really. 665 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,000 I mean, if, as long as you have like, one centralized choke 666 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,700 point, Doesn't really matter how many more centralized choke 667 00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:33,300 points. You add, right? 668 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:37,000 Depends. It really depends because if you 669 00:39:37,008 --> 00:39:41,400 have a centralized sequencer, then you can do so much damage 670 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,900 that you can do all the damage. If the L2 is designed correctly, 671 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,700 you can still Force the sequencer to take transactions 672 00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:55,900 in so they can forcibly sensor you and they can hurt liveness, 673 00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:58,100 but they cannot hurt security because the security is 674 00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:02,600 guaranteed by the proving process itself. 675 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:08,000 So there's so much damage that this Central chokepoint can do, 676 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,700 which is a really nice feature. That that's what's really 677 00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:15,500 compelling about this kind of zikr Roll-Ups because it can 678 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:18,800 limit the damage that the centralized party can do. 679 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000 On the scale of decentralization, where do all 680 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,800 of these set very early, all of them, okay? 681 00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:31,000 Look, but I think all of them at least have the intentions, the 682 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,300 right intentions. And I think they have this 683 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:39,100 honest, intentions to do the right things but just they need 684 00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:45,100 to ship what they have first and move towards the centralization 685 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,300 later when things are functional. 686 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,900 So yeah. We all know that this is 687 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,600 incredibly complex technology. So so we talked a lot about 688 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,800 l2's, but mostly zk8 EVMS, exactly via but there is Aztec 689 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,100 which we haven't talked about which we might want to. 690 00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:07,700 Yeah, if you were on. So, like Aztec, first of all, 691 00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:11,200 just a team that I adore. I think there's such great 692 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,800 people. I love hanging out with them 693 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,700 when I'm in London and they created, they launched, ZK 694 00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:22,900 money, I think, In the last two years they recently have like 695 00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:26,700 launch sort of a I don't know if you call it competitor DSL to 696 00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:27,500 Sir. Calm. 697 00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:30,200 What do you think Kobe? Is it good? 698 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:37,200 I think the cool I mean if you treat all those Acadia cells 699 00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:40,500 like all the languages is competitors in sure but I think 700 00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:44,500 it brings something really new to the table so I really like 701 00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:48,200 it. And they do talk about private 702 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,100 computation but I wouldn't put them in the category of ZK. 703 00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:56,500 E VM, no. I think they're, they're very 704 00:41:56,500 --> 00:42:00,600 different kind of structure. They're not a zika evm. 705 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,800 They're not even a z, KV M but under the not have this 706 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,700 recursive power yet like that would allow private smart 707 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:14,700 contract structures and but that's where this new language 708 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:19,300 that you are the devil. It is aimed to to enable that. 709 00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:22,900 So basically would write this the circuits with Noir, which 710 00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:25,800 looks like a normal programming language and then you would be 711 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,700 able to deploy it inside. There is a key role up and 712 00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:32,800 that's why it's like they call it a ZK, ZK roll up so that you 713 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,300 can verify with in the Z key roll up, more, ZK, so that's 714 00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:39,800 what they do, that's what you are. 715 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,500 Would give them. But basically, before we move 716 00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:47,400 on, just to make sure that we give the right picture, there 717 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,600 are other tools, right? Like there's Stark net, and 718 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,400 there is like, you say, Zeki sink, and all of them are not 719 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,300 even evm. Like they're just VMS. 720 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,500 And if you want to choose them, it might be for other reasons, 721 00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:01,300 right? Like you would choose them for 722 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,800 the reasons that you're willing to learn a new language or a new 723 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,600 environment. And you want to enjoy this 724 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,700 greater performance. That is give But you suffer from 725 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,200 may be other other other reasons, because maybe you need 726 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,400 to do new security analysis. Maybe you need to train more 727 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,300 developers, you taking a bet on a new VM, maybe it won't be as 728 00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:28,400 expressive as you want. Because in the evm, you know, 729 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,900 what you can do and what you cannot maybe here, you will find 730 00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:34,200 that you can do more, but maybe you find that you can do less. 731 00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:38,000 So there you just have to do some homework and maybe 732 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,100 experiment and see whether it even fits your use case. 733 00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:45,900 So, how is how is the performance different? 734 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,400 If I go to write? I think isn't it still? 735 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,500 I think Kobe. Can you answer? 736 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,400 That is is there clear metrics on these? 737 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,900 No, I think it's a community. This is one of the things that 738 00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:02,300 we need to develop. Like I actually had a chat about 739 00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:05,500 this with Tom today. Like, we need to develop some 740 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:10,300 framework for benchmarks for all of these other tools like so 741 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,500 it's interesting like to do The Apples to Apples comparisons 742 00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:14,500 here. It's not clear. 743 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,300 Yeah, absolutely. So basically, if if you know I'm 744 00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:23,900 going to build a new app that I want to run on one of those are 745 00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:27,400 two is and basically it's going to need a shitload of computer. 746 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,100 It is need lots of data availability, and so on, and 747 00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:34,300 basically, kind of having like this click through experience, 748 00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:38,600 where basically tells you, you should definitely deploy to 749 00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:42,400 Stockton it or something. So, I think that would be Super 750 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,700 interesting. Yo, or even some like common use 751 00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:50,800 cases and like, create all this. This common use case on all of 752 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:57,000 the different L tools and just evaluate how a performant it is. 753 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,700 That would also already be big progress, I think so. 754 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:03,700 We've talked about L2 is for bit. 755 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:07,900 Now, let's talk about at once. It used to be that secant was 756 00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:12,600 the zkl one and everything else is sort of like, building, ZK on 757 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,800 top of things. So there's a lot of teams that 758 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,600 are like. Also there may be in other 759 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,100 ecosystems like penumbra or Manta. 760 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,400 That's talk about kind of where the odd ones out and what they 761 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,000 usages like and whether their life at all or whether they're 762 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,900 kind of in proof of concept stage because basically the 763 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,600 Legacy privacy-preserving anyone's to me that would be 764 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,700 easy cash and more narrow. And it's gotten a bit quiet 765 00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:44,600 around those, but obviously the ones that you just cited, 766 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:48,100 they've gotten a lot of press recently. 767 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:52,700 So where are they at? Maybe just one thing about the z 768 00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:54,600 cap. So mineiro I was never, I've 769 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,800 never, really explored very much, but I will say, it's 770 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,800 something about the Z Cash, Crew is like in terms of research, 771 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,900 they released Halo 2 and it's been adopted, by almost like, 772 00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:05,700 like just all over the ecosystem. 773 00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:09,400 So in terms of like output on Research, they're still really 774 00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:13,500 top in a way but it's true that like, I think a lot of the other 775 00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:17,400 projects are bringing because they're often at least exploring 776 00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:20,300 programmability or being able to deploy things on top of them and 777 00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,700 not just In money transfer, a lot of them are also proof of 778 00:46:23,700 --> 00:46:27,500 steak or they've like evolve the consensus to fit a little bit 779 00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:30,100 more of The Narrative of today. I think. 780 00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:33,700 So the one that went live, probably the earliest of that 781 00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:37,300 batch is Mina. They went live in 2021, I 782 00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:39,900 believe. And you had side note, I'm an 783 00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:42,300 advisor to them. So just disclosure there. 784 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,300 So they used to present this idea of snaps. 785 00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:49,600 And this was like ZK apps on like on Mina. 786 00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:55,100 But they've And that so it's ZK apps now and as far as I know, 787 00:46:55,700 --> 00:46:59,100 like there are there's a cohort of people building things on 788 00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:02,600 test nut now. So like, it's if you want to 789 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,500 start really playing with these things, it's there to play with 790 00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:08,600 its maybe not yet live on the main net. 791 00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:11,700 And I don't know what it's going to take to get there yet, but 792 00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:13,600 yeah, that's that's kind of cool. 793 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,400 That's part of the reason why I think the ZK hackathon idea can 794 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,000 come to fruition this year because there is finally, It's 795 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,500 where people can really build stuff without like having 796 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:26,100 studied the stuff for months and months and months in advance. 797 00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,600 And going on. I mean, okay, so Elio is I know. 798 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,000 They're in like test net 3. I Kobe, I don't know. 799 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,400 Have you tried it out? I don't know, actually, how much 800 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,500 you can do yet. Well I haven't tried The 801 00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:44,800 Testament three itself but I like the bullet with the tool 802 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,100 chain that they have like they like Elliot try to develop a 803 00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:51,100 whole stack of things so they developed a new language. 804 00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:55,100 They develop this new Block Chain that has programmability 805 00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:58,900 in the UK and the language that they have is also very 806 00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:02,400 interesting because it combines both the blockchain part and the 807 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:07,100 circuit part in the same syntax, which is really fun to see. 808 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,900 And really Fun to work with. And so I've tried that and that 809 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:16,000 that's really cool. But yeah, it's like it does have 810 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,900 like this concept of proof of sufficient work which is an 811 00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:24,700 interesting approach to to mining because like the kind of 812 00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:31,400 a hybrid I think right now with profits take a fork and like the 813 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,100 use this part because the proof of pork itself uses snarks. 814 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:40,100 So the use this part of basically incentive Is creating 815 00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:44,100 hardware-accelerated, snark. Provers in some sense. 816 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,700 So it's kind of a whole circle and so it's your nice ecosystem. 817 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,300 Yeah, we might want to mention actually. 818 00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:57,200 So the Elio team also like, they put together the Z prize this 819 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,700 year, which was an attempt to like push and fund Hardware 820 00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:03,300 acceleration, which makes sense with their product. 821 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,400 And I think the results just came in, we did a little Alex, 822 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,600 did a presentation. Ation it seek a hack last week. 823 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,400 So yeah, there's like I think and from what I understood like 824 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,500 there were actual there was progress made in Hardware like 825 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,500 ZK proving it's pretty cool. That that worked that it 826 00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:24,300 happened. It was like industry-wide zkv. 827 00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:27,100 So partly sponsored it too. So like yeah, we all got 828 00:49:27,100 --> 00:49:31,400 involved to try to push that. Yeah, I think like Hardware 829 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,100 acceleration like the results maybe were surprising for some 830 00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:40,100 people and you got better than expected, and you actually got 831 00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:43,500 some interesting breakthroughs, like, in even in things that we 832 00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:47,000 haven't seen progress in like decades. 833 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,800 So, and people now that they see that the market is serious about 834 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,100 paying them for Hardware acceleration. 835 00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,100 They're not looking at this and actually making interesting 836 00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:00,800 breakthrough breakthrough. So that's really We'll see. 837 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,200 There's also a few teams that have emerged like projects that 838 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,800 just work on it. Like, Hardware to, like omers 839 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:08,700 project. Whose name. 840 00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:12,500 I always mess up your mama. Jama. 841 00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:13,800 There we go. Exactly. 842 00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:17,200 Yeah. I should mention ZK. 843 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,800 Validators of is an investor in a few of these projects and I 844 00:50:19,808 --> 00:50:23,500 think geometry might be as well. So yeah geometries investment in 845 00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,800 June when I am I here there's other projects, like other L 846 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,700 ones but they live within the other ecosystem. 847 00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:32,900 So we have penumbra that's like it's Going to be a privacy decks 848 00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:35,500 within the cosmos ecosystem. Like using IBC. 849 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,700 You have a Noma, which I feel like sort of is in Cosmo. 850 00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:42,700 Sort of is in polka-dots like, also this like bridged to other 851 00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:45,500 ecosystems project and I know they're doing at rest it, set up 852 00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,000 right now. That's going really well from 853 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,900 what I could see. It's like a lot of people wanted 854 00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:52,900 to, we both participated. Yeah. 855 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:56,100 We both participated and seek. If he participated, we also have 856 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,100 the polka dot side. You have Manta. 857 00:50:58,100 --> 00:51:00,400 That is like there's EK environment. 858 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,100 And actually, I will say a little Like ZK validator. 859 00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:06,800 We're actually doing a workshop series with them to use xcm with 860 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,700 Moonbeam. So it's actually called privacy 861 00:51:08,700 --> 00:51:11,100 and Moonbeam, and it's using Manta and Moonbeam. 862 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:13,500 And it's cool because like I think by putting the project out 863 00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:17,500 in the world, we sort of pushed the developers on both sides to 864 00:51:17,500 --> 00:51:20,100 make sure that we could like, actually make exactly this 865 00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:23,300 combination this. So actually, there will be 866 00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:27,200 applications building kind of over that through our workshop 867 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:32,000 at least like experimental applications Yeah, and like 868 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,200 beyond the ones that are, let's say. 869 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:41,000 Z key Focus, you also have more and more support in other L ones 870 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,600 that are not General is equally focused, but they add ZK 871 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,500 support. So it seems started with that 872 00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:53,700 like that that was a big, big leap, but so did that and I 873 00:51:53,707 --> 00:51:58,700 think so. So it's done that and Falcon to 874 00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:02,500 some extent are using like I think they're also like maybe 875 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:08,500 the biggest snark consumers at this point, maybe by like 876 00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:14,100 proving power. So you have this kind of deep ZK 877 00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:17,200 integration in a lot of these other elements as well. 878 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,200 Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. 879 00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:23,100 We release new episodes every week. 880 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:26,500 You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, 881 00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:29,600 YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcast. 882 00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:32,700 And if you have a Google home or Alexa device, you can tell it to 883 00:52:32,707 --> 00:52:35,700 listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast, go to 884 00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:38,800 epicenter dot TV /, subscribe for a full list of places where 885 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,400 you can watch and listen, while you're there, be sure to sign up 886 00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:44,200 for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as 887 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,400 they're released if you want to interact with us guests. 888 00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:50,200 Or other podcast listeners you can follow us on Twitter and 889 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,600 please leave us a review on iTunes. 890 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,100 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 891 00:52:54,100 --> 00:52:57,400 them but thanks so much and we look forward to being back next 892 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:48,800 week. Or other podcast listeners you 893 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,200 can follow us on Twitter and please leave us a review on 894 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,900 iTunes. It helps people find the show 895 00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:56,400 and we're always happy to read them but thanks so much and we 896 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:57,700 look forward to being back next week.