1
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,880
Welcome to Epicenter, the show 
which talks about the 

2
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,560
technologies, projects and 
people driving decentralization 

3
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,640
and the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Sebastian Inquitia and today

4
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,880
I'm joined by Robbie Ferguson. 
He's cofounder at Immutable, 

5
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,160
Mutable as a platform for 
building Web three games. 

6
00:00:28,790 --> 00:00:31,390
And we're going to talk about 
Web 3 gaming today. 

7
00:00:31,670 --> 00:00:32,990
We're going to talk about the 
gaming market. 

8
00:00:32,990 --> 00:00:36,550
We're going to discuss also 
Immutable their whole developer 

9
00:00:36,550 --> 00:00:40,590
platform and some of their some 
of their products and 

10
00:00:40,670 --> 00:00:45,190
understanding where Web 3 gaming
is going generally. 

11
00:00:45,430 --> 00:00:46,950
So Robbie, thanks for joining me
today. 

12
00:00:48,070 --> 00:00:49,630
Thanks for having me. 
Is that pleasure to be here? 

13
00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:55,430
So yeah, tell me a bit about 
your background and like, how 

14
00:00:55,430 --> 00:01:00,120
you. 
Came to want to focus on Web 3 

15
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,240
gaming. 
Yeah, of course. 

16
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,280
So I've been building technology
startups for the last decade as 

17
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,520
a software engineer. 
Originally self-taught and most 

18
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,360
days I built with my brother and
my cofounder James. 

19
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,960
In fact, we actually started out
by building a League of Legends 

20
00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,840
betting application where you 
could automatically wager on 

21
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,520
your own matches. 
So I think we had, you know, we 

22
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,640
were massive grainers growing up
I think with this thesis pretty 

23
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,080
early on that. 
Games were incredibly important,

24
00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:32,960
that the assets inside these 
games could be valuable, and 

25
00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:34,840
that there was something that 
was being locked away from 

26
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,360
gangs, you know? 
Back then we didn't know the 

27
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,040
technical architecture of that, 
but I remember even playing 

28
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,960
Runescape on a shared account I 
had with my brother, and one day

29
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,080
I decided to take his account of
the wilderness. 

30
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,560
I think he had full dragon, and 
I scowled my Lost Doors items. 

31
00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:57,820
And I felt so bad that I went 
online and I spent all my pocket

32
00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:00,980
money and I bought in game gold 
so that I could buy as I was 

33
00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:03,740
back. 
And the next day the account was

34
00:02:03,740 --> 00:02:06,940
banned for real world trading. 
Six months later, Drug X rolled 

35
00:02:06,940 --> 00:02:10,580
out first party support for real
world trading as long as the 

36
00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:12,620
issuance was centralized and 
controlled through them. 

37
00:02:13,180 --> 00:02:15,940
And so I think it was pretty 
obvious the, you know, the 

38
00:02:15,940 --> 00:02:19,530
impunity with which people. 
Regarded these economies and 

39
00:02:19,530 --> 00:02:21,970
made changes to them even though
they were incredibly important 

40
00:02:21,970 --> 00:02:24,530
to people's lives and and to 
some extent their their 

41
00:02:24,530 --> 00:02:28,730
financial livelihoods. 
Even in web two economies where 

42
00:02:28,730 --> 00:02:31,370
it was limited to a database. 
In fact you make arguments that 

43
00:02:31,370 --> 00:02:34,010
the first ever sort of you know 
real world trading of digital 

44
00:02:34,010 --> 00:02:37,210
assets was probably World of 
Warcraft and indeed you know 

45
00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:40,770
Counterstrike go through this 
essentially Steam locked 

46
00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:45,090
database today did $32 billion 
in volume over the last few 

47
00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:46,530
years. 
So I I think it's obvious that 

48
00:02:46,530 --> 00:02:48,590
there's a problem. 
And also that there's a need, 

49
00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:51,630
there's a demand that all in the
real world over, these assets 

50
00:02:51,630 --> 00:02:55,030
being traded or wanting to be 
traded and they're really not 

51
00:02:55,030 --> 00:02:58,070
being a good solution or 
infrastructure for it. 

52
00:02:58,190 --> 00:03:01,430
So we we, we started building 
more tech companies. 

53
00:03:01,790 --> 00:03:04,910
We got into the crypto space in 
2014 with Bitcoin. 

54
00:03:05,750 --> 00:03:07,910
We basically just got exposure 
financially. 

55
00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:09,070
I thought it was kind of 
interesting. 

56
00:03:09,070 --> 00:03:12,910
I wasn't super obsessed, but 
when Ethereum came out, I became

57
00:03:12,950 --> 00:03:16,720
a, you know, a believer. 
I remember using ether roll and 

58
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,960
just becoming obsessed with this
idea that someone could take 

59
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,680
what, you know, a gambling 
company spends billions of 

60
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,840
dollars or the government does, 
ensuring that the payouts on 

61
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,160
slot machines are compliant. 
That they have the probabilities

62
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,440
rated between what their payout 
ratios are 88 to 93 cents here 

63
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,880
in Australia, and they literally
heuristically test this. 

64
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,240
They have to air out the 
machines and then someone build 

65
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,680
this little app called ether 
Roll. 

66
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,330
It did all of that. 
Into underlines the code. 

67
00:03:44,930 --> 00:03:48,130
And then it did something that 
the companies and the government

68
00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:50,690
could never do. 
It took the revenue streams from

69
00:03:50,690 --> 00:03:54,130
this institution of this 
enterprise and it gave it to 

70
00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:56,770
every single person who used the
protocol through tokens. 

71
00:03:57,250 --> 00:04:00,290
And I was just obsessed with 
this idea of decentralizing and 

72
00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:03,210
making companies cooperatives. 
I thought it was the way that 

73
00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:05,850
capitalist incentives could 
finally solve some of the 

74
00:04:05,850 --> 00:04:09,320
inherent problems in society. 
I was sold by this idea of a 

75
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,560
decentralized Uber where all the
riders could throw in the 

76
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,520
network. 
Now turns out that did happen. 

77
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,920
It just happened with on chain 
financial products because the 

78
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,040
friction was much lower and you 
already have native product 

79
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,360
market fit with these 100,000 
defy freighters slash AirDrop 

80
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,760
farmers slash early users of Web
3 today. 

81
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,240
That's kind of your core and 
whales who are who are moving 

82
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:34,080
money around and we we basically
started building trading bots 

83
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,470
for a few years. 
On top of Ploni X initially and 

84
00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:39,230
and then on decentralized 
exchanges. 

85
00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:41,390
But we always wanted to build 
something. 

86
00:04:42,110 --> 00:04:44,830
And so at the start of 2017, my 
brother and I wrote a white 

87
00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:48,750
paper called the Distributed 
Autonomous Bank or DAP, which 

88
00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:51,750
was effectively compound. 
And we hadn't solved all of the 

89
00:04:51,750 --> 00:04:53,870
collateralization problems of 
lending protocols. 

90
00:04:54,030 --> 00:04:56,790
I I don't think they're solved 
today even, but we are about to 

91
00:04:56,790 --> 00:05:02,030
launch it when. 5I CO's went to 
50, went to 200 and we just got 

92
00:05:02,030 --> 00:05:05,110
very cold feet about the space 
from a Reg and compliance 

93
00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:06,390
perspective. 
We thought a bunch of people 

94
00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:09,710
were going to jail and we wanted
to build something that would be

95
00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:13,550
long term feasible and that we 
would be happy to grow 

96
00:05:13,550 --> 00:05:16,310
incredibly large without having 
the SEC knock on that all at 

97
00:05:16,350 --> 00:05:17,670
when it gets to a sufficient 
scale. 

98
00:05:18,510 --> 00:05:19,830
And So what? 
We scrapped that, but 

99
00:05:19,830 --> 00:05:23,150
serendipitously at the same 
time, the first of NFT's came 

100
00:05:23,150 --> 00:05:26,070
out in this idea of a crypto 
punk and. 

101
00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:29,140
We we saw these and we said this
will be how gamers are in game 

102
00:05:29,140 --> 00:05:32,660
items and actually the way we we
started was we built the first 

103
00:05:32,660 --> 00:05:34,100
ever multiplayer game on any 
blockchain. 

104
00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:37,820
It was fully on chain Logic came
out in December of 2017. 

105
00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:41,020
It was called Etherbots and you 
could basically battle robots 

106
00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:45,390
and and win real. 
NFT's by by having your your 

107
00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:47,390
machines win. 
They were composable of four a 

108
00:05:47,390 --> 00:05:50,150
RC72 ones you had a fully on 
chain perk tree. 

109
00:05:50,310 --> 00:05:52,470
You can play a game today and it
will cost you hundreds of 

110
00:05:52,470 --> 00:05:53,670
dollars, but it can never go 
down. 

111
00:05:53,950 --> 00:05:56,470
And so I think we learned pretty
early on, you know watch you go 

112
00:05:56,470 --> 00:06:00,350
on chain versus watch it off and
that really formed the thesis of

113
00:06:00,470 --> 00:06:02,910
how we started to build 
immutable which was build first 

114
00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:06,550
party content much in the same 
way that Steam or Valve started 

115
00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:09,100
out with Counter Strike go. 
And then we're able to leverage 

116
00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:12,540
that knowledge and that sort of 
beachhead from the content 

117
00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:15,620
perspective into building a 
platform that everyone could use

118
00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:18,740
and that really sold core needs.
And so you know immutable today 

119
00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:21,740
we're nearly 300 people around 
the world, much more if you 

120
00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:24,500
include the the contracting on, 
on game development. 

121
00:06:24,860 --> 00:06:28,100
We have hundreds of games 
building on us and we we had 

122
00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:30,780
more than a billion dollars 
invested in games building on us

123
00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:32,980
just last year and we 
significantly increased our 

124
00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:35,100
market share. 
Since then, with this Polygon 

125
00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:37,660
partnership, and we've raised, 
you know, hundreds of millions 

126
00:06:37,660 --> 00:06:40,700
from everyone from Temersec to 
to $0.10 versus investment in 

127
00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:43,740
the space. 
And our whole mission is how do 

128
00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:47,220
we deliver on this promise to to
web through gamers and to gamers

129
00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:49,340
worldwide on true digital asset 
ownership. 

130
00:06:50,220 --> 00:06:52,980
You said something in the 
beginning which you know kind of

131
00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:56,100
struck me as interesting is that
you you said that you were you I

132
00:06:56,100 --> 00:07:00,300
think it was League of Legends 
that you you had bought this 

133
00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:06,850
gold and and then ended up 
buying some assets to sort of 

134
00:07:06,850 --> 00:07:10,010
make make good on your on having
lost your brother's assets and 

135
00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:12,010
that that account was banned for
real world trading. 

136
00:07:12,810 --> 00:07:18,970
What why do gaming platforms and
game publishers prohibit or 

137
00:07:18,970 --> 00:07:22,450
you'll want to prohibit or keep 
or in the case of of this game 

138
00:07:22,450 --> 00:07:24,810
having then allowed real world 
trading. 

139
00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:27,570
Why do they want to keep that 
sort of centralized within 

140
00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:33,320
within their platform? 
So I think before now it the 

141
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,080
technology hasn't existed. 
I think it's impossible to do 

142
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:41,760
with databases. 
The availability of being able 

143
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,120
to change something means that 
companies will and that means 

144
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,080
you can't form third party 
trusted ecosystem. 

145
00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,040
Even if the current CEO wants to
make a trusted third party 

146
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,480
ecosystem, you know people can't
trust the incentives and 

147
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,680
financials enough to actually 
build real enterprises. 

148
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960
You saw this with Upskits, which
is their $300 million third 

149
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,160
party marketplace, the CS Go 
skins. 

150
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,640
That basically went belly up 
when Valve implemented 

151
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,800
Tradelocks, and they limited 
skins from being created more 

152
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,640
frequently than once a week. 
And so I think there's actually 

153
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,600
just this technological 
impossibility and political 

154
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,880
impossibility with everything 
that doesn't rely on open, 

155
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,520
trustless, immutable 
architecture such as Nft's. 

156
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,800
But isn't that a design issue 
though? 

157
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,240
I mean, so there may be the 
technology issue, but there's 

158
00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,600
also like the design aspect. 
So whether you're building on 

159
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,920
the centralized database or 
you're building in a blockchain,

160
00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:34,580
the designers of say the smart 
contract or the, and maybe this 

161
00:08:34,580 --> 00:08:36,860
is getting a little bit in the 
weeds here sort of early on, but

162
00:08:37,780 --> 00:08:41,340
the design essentially is in the
hands of the developer or the 

163
00:08:41,340 --> 00:08:45,140
issue of that game. 
And so couldn't you build a 

164
00:08:45,140 --> 00:08:47,260
similar sort of design in the 
game where you have like an 

165
00:08:47,260 --> 00:08:51,020
admin key, and that admin key 
gets to decide who is able to 

166
00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:53,620
trade or what the trading 
mechanisms might be? 

167
00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:56,990
You can. 
So I I think the technology is 

168
00:08:56,990 --> 00:08:59,630
only one half the picture. 
And the answer to that in web 

169
00:08:59,630 --> 00:09:03,470
three is I mean if you work 
really hard, you can make things

170
00:09:03,470 --> 00:09:05,550
properly trustless and in 
general they're, they're much 

171
00:09:05,550 --> 00:09:07,550
more trustless. 
For instance, if if someone 

172
00:09:07,550 --> 00:09:10,070
doesn't change, they don't like,
you know, people can kind of you

173
00:09:10,070 --> 00:09:12,990
know fork those assets or we'll 
find out some other ways to 

174
00:09:12,990 --> 00:09:15,470
bring value to them. 
But in general, what we're 

175
00:09:15,470 --> 00:09:19,590
relying on is incentive 
alignment, which means that the 

176
00:09:19,790 --> 00:09:23,430
publishers have an incentive to 
grow the value of that ecosystem

177
00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:24,870
and grow the value of those 
assets. 

178
00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:27,470
Because they now have access to 
things like royalties and 

179
00:09:27,470 --> 00:09:30,270
secondary market fees rather 
than having to rely on this old 

180
00:09:30,270 --> 00:09:34,230
model of I sell stuff I 
deprecate that and and make them

181
00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:37,030
more useless by releasing more 
powerful stuff that people want 

182
00:09:37,030 --> 00:09:41,350
to buy every year and and so I I
think it's it's a fair point and

183
00:09:41,350 --> 00:09:45,070
it's it's certainly not you sort
of overnight solved unless 

184
00:09:45,070 --> 00:09:48,510
they're doing fully on chain 
clusters games which you know I 

185
00:09:48,510 --> 00:09:50,590
certainly love this cycle I 
think we're seeing some 

186
00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:53,910
interesting experiments but it's
web 2.5 games that are going to 

187
00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:56,380
go made straight first. 
But the second question in the 

188
00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:58,580
probably much more important one
is just economics and 

189
00:09:58,580 --> 00:10:00,340
incentives. 
I think this model hasn't 

190
00:10:00,340 --> 00:10:02,860
existed before. 
I think it's difficult for games

191
00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:05,980
companies to see how they can, 
you know for a long time 

192
00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:08,860
actually succeed off growing the
value of these economies. 

193
00:10:09,140 --> 00:10:12,340
And you have to remember as 
well, like in game items being 

194
00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:15,260
the biggest portion of spend is 
also a reasonably new 

195
00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:17,500
phenomenon. 
Free to play gaming only came 

196
00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:20,900
out in the late 2000 and 10s and
that's when you had in game 

197
00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:23,660
items as even something that was
really important. 

198
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,480
As a vast majority of 
monetization, the majority of 

199
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,480
monetization is now in game 
items and we're we're sort of 

200
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,120
seeing this pressure towards 
well how do we actually create 

201
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,000
better economic standards and 
better property rights. 

202
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,040
The game is because of this. 
But 20 years ago this was 

203
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,960
completely irrelevant because 
these, you know, these sort of 

204
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,160
economies were increasingly 
small and didn't have that much 

205
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,360
relevance to to players. 
So I think the answer now is 

206
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:51,600
it's a bit of both. 
It's. 

207
00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:54,540
How can we prove out to 
developers this is a better and 

208
00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:57,540
more aligned business model 
while at the same time you just 

209
00:10:57,540 --> 00:10:59,180
have innovative dilemma. 
People are going to be 

210
00:10:59,180 --> 00:11:02,780
disrupted. 
The goal we're going for is we 

211
00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:04,780
want gamers to demand property 
rights. 

212
00:11:04,940 --> 00:11:07,340
They play a game and they get 
given something in a database 

213
00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:10,220
that should be not good enough. 
And that's the point of which 

214
00:11:10,220 --> 00:11:13,820
it's no longer sort of market to
have a game that runs on a 

215
00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:17,220
database rather than on open 
property systems. 

216
00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:19,940
Yeah, interesting. 
We can get a little bit more 

217
00:11:19,940 --> 00:11:22,720
into this a little bit later, 
but I just want to pull and 

218
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,640
throw a little bit. 
You know, what is it that people

219
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,400
like me take a snap back here? 
Like what is it that people 

220
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,600
understand the least about game 
development? 

221
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,000
You know, this is whole, there's
this whole kind of narrative 

222
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,040
around web three games and how 
web three games are inherently 

223
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,120
better than the the traditional 
model. 

224
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,400
But like game development is a 
really, I mean it's a huge 

225
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,040
industry. 
It's like a $200 billion 

226
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,160
industry. 
Games and game development is 

227
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,800
expensive and like, there's all 
these, there's all these 

228
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,120
considerations around like 
licensing and publishers and 

229
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,240
distribution. 
And I mean, it's a very complex 

230
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,840
industry. 
What is it that people 

231
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,960
understand the least about it 
that bears understanding if 

232
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,200
they're going to be building a 
Web three-game or if they want 

233
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,640
to go sort of in this direction?
I think the first thing is 

234
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,640
probably timelines and how they 
get produced. 

235
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,640
The reason that D5 ball runs 
correlated so quickly with D5 

236
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,760
innovation is Andrei Croneer can
put together a test smart 

237
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,920
contract and call it a 
productions one contract in a 

238
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,760
week, right? 
Like it, You can build D5 

239
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,520
applications very, very quickly.
They're all open source, they're

240
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,560
highly composable, people can 
fork and and sort of remix 

241
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:33,680
things. 
Building the gate is not at all 

242
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:35,080
like that. 
It's like building a movie. 

243
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,920
You have a budget of roughly 
minimum $5 million for anything 

244
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,120
reasonable. 
Unless you're looking at truly 

245
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,270
indeed, it's. 
All the way up into the hundreds

246
00:12:43,270 --> 00:12:46,270
of millions of dollars and for 
sort of you know Bethesda 

247
00:12:46,270 --> 00:12:48,910
quality games and and even them 
you will not be able to produce 

248
00:12:48,910 --> 00:12:51,550
a Bethesda game unless you have 
the capabilities and processes 

249
00:12:51,550 --> 00:12:54,030
of Bethesda. 
There are very few studios with 

250
00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:58,350
sort of that internal capability
and and risk tolerance and and 

251
00:12:58,350 --> 00:12:59,590
the time it takes is a lot 
longer. 

252
00:12:59,870 --> 00:13:02,430
And then you combine that with 
the power law of gaming, which 

253
00:13:02,430 --> 00:13:06,070
is that gaming, particularly 
free to play games, conform to a

254
00:13:06,070 --> 00:13:08,470
power law, which means that the 
biggest game will have more 

255
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:10,190
revenue or more players or more 
volume. 

256
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:13,670
And #2 and and the end and the 
second biggest game will have 

257
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:17,230
more than #3 and and so on to 
the end And what that means 

258
00:13:17,230 --> 00:13:21,150
actually is when you look at why
we haven't had a hit or the one 

259
00:13:21,150 --> 00:13:24,750
hit we've had was was sort of 
axe which was sort of medium 

260
00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:28,070
sustainability obviously had a 
had a sharp drop off is there 

261
00:13:28,070 --> 00:13:31,430
simply hasn't been enough shots 
on goal and one hit is going to 

262
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:34,670
dwarf everything else combined. 
You see this already in in Web 

263
00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:37,630
2, Counterstrike Go doing $32 
billion in volume. 

264
00:13:38,030 --> 00:13:41,150
Over the last three years or in 
revenues you you see that same 

265
00:13:41,150 --> 00:13:46,070
topology Axeden is is roughly 
what 5 or 6 billion and 

266
00:13:46,070 --> 00:13:48,670
everything else is lower than 
that combined. 

267
00:13:49,310 --> 00:13:51,910
And I I think we're we're going 
to see that but the failure 

268
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:55,190
rates are going to be incredibly
high to start with 90 to 95%. 

269
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:59,350
And so the reason we have such a
broad platform players, we know 

270
00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:02,590
there are going to be so many 
shots on goal and all that 

271
00:14:02,590 --> 00:14:05,070
matters is they have sufficient 
funding to be one of those hits.

272
00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:07,730
And then we just have to make 
everyone as successful as 

273
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:10,850
possible and sort of focus on 
those top 100, top 200 

274
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:14,810
opportunities and one of the 
biggest challenges then I mean 

275
00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:20,130
you said there's like 100 games 
on Immutable and we've seen 

276
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:23,970
other games like AXI and there's
a whole like sandbox ecosystem. 

277
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,800
What have we learned so far 
about web Three games that we've

278
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,560
identified as like the biggest 
challenges to like hitting those

279
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,080
shots on goal and like really 
demonstrating that this new sort

280
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,160
of infrastructure and this new 
paradigm of gaming is inherently

281
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,720
better and making some positions
here that you know than than 

282
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,400
traditional games. 
I think there's probably 5 big 

283
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,240
problems blocking successful 
games being ready now and 

284
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,440
available. 
And we think about this problem 

285
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,400
a lot and our goal is immutable,
is to be the one stop shop that 

286
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,080
we could solve everything for a 
mainstream developer. 

287
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,480
If they want to build something,
I'll go through and I'll say 

288
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,160
where I think the like the 
market is at today. 

289
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,120
So I think the five problems are
security and choice of technical

290
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,000
architecture to user experience 
for onboarding mainstream 

291
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,920
players 3. 
Developer Experience for 

292
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,360
mainstream developers to build a
successful blockchain game 

293
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,840
without having to touch things 
like Salivity 4th. 

294
00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:29,860
Having a sustainable and easily 
built economy and five the game 

295
00:15:29,860 --> 00:15:33,020
design itself and and the the 
actual game production quality 

296
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:35,780
kind of getting live and and 
that's the one we have the least

297
00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:39,260
control over that takes time it 
takes game studios being built 

298
00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:42,580
and we've had a lot of that 
investment so that's kind of you

299
00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:45,460
know in progress and and we're 
seeing stuff start to go live 

300
00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:47,940
and and we'll start to pick up 
the pace increasingly over the 

301
00:15:47,940 --> 00:15:50,820
next 12 months as the rest of 
the boy I think we've actually 

302
00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:54,470
made massive progress so. 
So the first one, security, I 

303
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:57,310
think this is basically now 
solved and this was always 

304
00:15:57,310 --> 00:15:58,950
something we would never have to
compromise on. 

305
00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:01,030
It's the reason we didn't go 
down the path of side chains. 

306
00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:04,670
Even then that was the most 
faded sort of VC thesis for how 

307
00:16:04,670 --> 00:16:06,350
you should build a valuable 
company with building an E 

308
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:09,670
killer or an E alternative. 
And we always wanted to build on

309
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:11,950
the thing that already had 
liquidity and had the best 

310
00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:15,230
security and we wanted to do so 
inheriting that security, which 

311
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:19,150
is why we're basically you know 
the first ZK roll up for NF T's 

312
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:21,270
why we why we chose this 
architecture from day one. 

313
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:26,390
The second is user experience, 
and this was in a really bad 

314
00:16:26,390 --> 00:16:28,910
place by the way, security. 
If you make the wrong choice 

315
00:16:28,910 --> 00:16:32,830
here, you know your platform is 
dead and you lose all brand sort

316
00:16:32,830 --> 00:16:34,350
of security and trust with your 
customers. 

317
00:16:34,510 --> 00:16:37,110
So this is a nonviolable 
condition that companies have to

318
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:40,790
be incredibly careful about and 
and it doesn't just extend it to

319
00:16:40,950 --> 00:16:43,630
inherit blockchain security, 
it's also the quality of your 

320
00:16:43,630 --> 00:16:46,270
wallets, are they self 
custodial, etc etc. 

321
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:48,230
So I think that's really 
important decision. 

322
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:50,830
Second is user experience. 
This is probably honestly the. 

323
00:16:51,220 --> 00:16:52,860
The more it's basic, but also 
the most important. 

324
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:57,980
If you ask a mainstream gamer, I
I you know, I even think friend 

325
00:16:57,980 --> 00:16:59,380
tech is a perfect example of 
this. 

326
00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:02,220
He was able to go viral within 
crypto and no further. 

327
00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:05,380
Because as soon as you have that
viral coefficient which might 

328
00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:08,540
have been just above one with 
within web three, you cut it 

329
00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:10,859
down to like .1. 
As soon as you require anyone to

330
00:17:10,859 --> 00:17:14,020
go through Web 3 on boarding, if
you're required to learn what a 

331
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:17,619
wallet is to bridge, you lose a 
huge amount of your uses. 90 to 

332
00:17:17,619 --> 00:17:20,250
95% of your uses. 
And so we need a way of making 

333
00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:22,089
this like downloading a game in 
the App Store and pay. 

334
00:17:23,290 --> 00:17:25,010
And I think we've come a very 
long way here. 

335
00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:28,810
We have Fiat on ramps and off 
ramps entering maturity. 

336
00:17:28,970 --> 00:17:33,330
We have things like immutable 
passport where you can literally

337
00:17:33,330 --> 00:17:36,290
sign up to a wallet that's self 
custodial in another 5 seconds, 

338
00:17:36,450 --> 00:17:38,450
sign on with Apple, sign with 
Google, sign with e-mail. 

339
00:17:39,050 --> 00:17:41,490
And that's kind of our view for 
the long term is this has to be 

340
00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:44,490
completely invisible to the end 
user while still maintaining 

341
00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:47,410
self custody is the default. 
Otherwise, again, we're just 

342
00:17:47,410 --> 00:17:51,040
building a glorified database. 
Number three, I think developer 

343
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,520
experience is really interesting
and has been overlooked by the 

344
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,400
vast majority of platforms and 
blockchains. 

345
00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,200
A lot of people have invested in
better frameworks for writing 

346
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,320
smart contracts, EVM 
compatibility. 

347
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,000
They are important but they 
really service a hardcore use 

348
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,440
case of DFI builders and people 
building. 

349
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,080
Right now what our belief is is 
95% of developers will just want

350
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,120
to build using APIs like Stripe 
and I think without that 

351
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,570
usability. 
It's incredibly hard for this 

352
00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:21,410
thing to take off. 
I mean even you have like Co 

353
00:18:21,410 --> 00:18:26,130
finance advanced builders using 
early version of Vypar and then 

354
00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:28,970
having a reentrancy back that 
was not even really auditable 

355
00:18:29,410 --> 00:18:32,290
and so it's terrifying to build 
stuff using open smart 

356
00:18:32,290 --> 00:18:34,130
contracts. 
You have brand new security 

357
00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:35,610
concepts that do not exist in 
web. 

358
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:38,250
Two things like reentrancy which
are literally not sort of 

359
00:18:38,970 --> 00:18:40,890
concepts that you're 
encountering conventional 

360
00:18:40,890 --> 00:18:43,530
programming and then on top of 
everything you have immutability

361
00:18:43,530 --> 00:18:46,450
and financial contracts that 
that inherently deal with money.

362
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,040
Which I think it's just 
terrifying. 

363
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,880
And as somebody who was 
originally a web two engineer 

364
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,560
and obviously had to learn 
celebrity and and build on chain

365
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,520
products, the 4th is economies. 
And this one is really 

366
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,080
interesting because I think that
had actually had a sustainable 

367
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,520
economy went through, gaming 
would already be mainstream. 

368
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,160
Because what you have in every 
shift in gaming is, and there's 

369
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,320
been three major shifts in 
gaming over the last couple of 

370
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,720
decades. 
You have the free to play shift,

371
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,720
the social shift, and the mobile
shift. 

372
00:19:13,070 --> 00:19:15,510
And then within that you have 
different game designs emerging 

373
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:17,070
based on each form of 
distribution. 

374
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:20,390
But with each form of 
distribution, basically you have

375
00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:24,270
early hypothesis, a few people 
taking bets and as soon as 

376
00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:27,110
someone has a mainstream 
success, there are 1000 

377
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:29,470
copycats. 
That becomes the new default 

378
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:32,270
form of distribution, huge in 
forms of investment and it 

379
00:19:32,270 --> 00:19:34,750
basically becomes a commodity. 
How to build a successful game 

380
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:37,230
design for that game 
distribution or genre. 

381
00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:40,230
You saw this with FarmVille. 
You know FarmVille spawned the 

382
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:43,120
social game genre. 
You had Mafia Wars also greater 

383
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,720
by Zynga skin into 15 different 
games that were literally the 

384
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,520
Mafia Wars code under the hood. 
They just had, you know, it's 

385
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,840
skin for teenage girls with like
a beauty salon, lots of 

386
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,080
different other modes. 
And that's actually what we need

387
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,600
in Web Three. 
It actually had a sustainable 

388
00:19:58,600 --> 00:19:59,800
economy. 
I'm not throwing shade on 

389
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,080
actually here, I'm just saying 
the reality of it was it was a 

390
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,600
bet that became extremely viral 
and failed. 

391
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,280
But if that was sustainable, 
suddenly we'd have all the 

392
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,760
copycats like Stephen seeing 
sustained success. 

393
00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:12,450
And I I think that's what we 
need. 

394
00:20:12,450 --> 00:20:15,810
It's why we build immutable 
studios is that we have to force

395
00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:17,890
ourselves to think through first
from first principles. 

396
00:20:18,130 --> 00:20:21,090
How do we design an economy to 
be sustainable and and work with

397
00:20:21,090 --> 00:20:24,250
things like you know the natural
growth curves or or or churn at 

398
00:20:24,250 --> 00:20:27,090
different games. 
That's incredibly important and 

399
00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:29,890
that needs to be just super 
simple games should not have to 

400
00:20:29,890 --> 00:20:33,090
go and have to hire like 5PHD 
economists to succeed in web 

401
00:20:33,090 --> 00:20:34,810
three. 
It has to be like, oh cool, I'm 

402
00:20:34,810 --> 00:20:37,170
building a gatcha game. 
Here's like the open source 

403
00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:38,490
template for building a gatcha 
game. 

404
00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:41,290
I might add some tweaks and make
it hit like engine impact, but 

405
00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:43,810
really I'm innovating on cool 
gameplay loops and retention, 

406
00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:47,010
not like some really intractable
stuff around economies. 

407
00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:49,530
And then five. 
Actually, I didn't even touch on

408
00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:51,810
this, but like liquidity, 
fragmentation is also a huge 

409
00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:53,010
problem. 
I realize I'm talking a lot, but

410
00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:54,690
obviously there's something I'm 
passionate about now. 

411
00:20:54,890 --> 00:20:56,090
These are these are great 
points. 

412
00:20:56,090 --> 00:21:00,770
So liquidity fragmentation is is
like the the hidden demon of the

413
00:21:00,770 --> 00:21:04,290
blockchain today. 
It's the reason behind the fact 

414
00:21:04,290 --> 00:21:08,700
we even have these killers is 
because everyone says and the 

415
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:11,700
fantastic article Chain Link 
Guard Chain Rotation thesis, you

416
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:14,700
know you have a bull run. 
The theory hits congestion. 

417
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:17,740
Congestion creates the narrative
fodder for someone to create an 

418
00:21:17,740 --> 00:21:19,540
each competitor saying it 
doesn't scale. 

419
00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:22,700
They raise cash because they 
need to bootstrap liquidity from

420
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:24,700
scratch. 
But that alternative blockchain 

421
00:21:24,980 --> 00:21:30,020
and then they able to seed, defy
and create sort of artificial 

422
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:33,140
metrics on that new blockchain 
in order to seed some interest. 

423
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,800
And we've seen that happen time 
and time again with every single

424
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,080
bull bear run cycle. 
The difference with the next 

425
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,640
cycle is we now have L twos and 
L threes that can scale 

426
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,320
Etherium, the most secure and 
most liquid block train in the 

427
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,800
world. 
And our vision is, well, how do 

428
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,120
we just remove fragmentation 
whatsoever? 

429
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,200
How do we make it so no matter 
what L2 or L3 you're using, no 

430
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,960
matter what wallet you're using,
no matter what marketplace 

431
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,040
you're trading on, no matter 
what game you're trading in, you

432
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,440
can trade completely, 
atomically, completely 

433
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,600
seamlessly with any other trade 
in the world. 

434
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,840
And I I think that's incredibly 
important because everything I 

435
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,120
just said, marketplaces, roll 
ups, wallets and user funds, 

436
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,120
they're each fragmented to 
whatever particular product 

437
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:17,440
using that particular time. 
And and so we're having no 

438
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,240
network value credit from 
everyone depositing. 

439
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:21,840
And like this is what Apple 
does. 

440
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,320
Everyone thinks it's really easy
to pay for things in the App 

441
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,040
Store is. 
But at one point you actually 

442
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,680
had to sign up and give them 
your credit card details, you 

443
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,640
had to KYC or to register your 
username. 

444
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,790
That's why you can double click 
with your face and you have to 

445
00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:36,230
do that for a million different 
times for a million different 

446
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:40,510
like liquidity motors onboarding
platforms in web three when we 

447
00:22:40,510 --> 00:22:43,470
just need everyone to come onto 
a single source and and start to

448
00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:44,630
be able to use their funds 
everywhere. 

449
00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:48,470
I think that's kind of the the 
really important underlying 

450
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:52,630
network that every bit of value 
has to be approving to I'm So 

451
00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:54,150
those are the five things we 
think about. 

452
00:22:54,590 --> 00:22:57,790
I think the majority of these 
are either solved will be sold 

453
00:22:57,790 --> 00:23:00,710
in the next six months. 
I'm so we're finally the point 

454
00:23:00,710 --> 00:23:04,280
where gains are actually capable
of succeeding purely based on 

455
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,400
the infrastructure that they're 
using. 

456
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,440
So all these all these points 
like these five challenges you 

457
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,640
cited when you were going 
through them, to me they just 

458
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,000
seem like the same challenges. 
They're they're crypto 

459
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,520
challenges. 
They're not just get crypto 

460
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,640
gaming challenges, They're the 
the challenges for any crypto 

461
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,080
adoption, whether that's social 
networks, whether that's Defy, 

462
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,840
whether that's whatever 
application you want to build on

463
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,880
crypto. 
And I think. 

464
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:30,890
Some of these are getting 
solved, right? 

465
00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:34,330
Onboarding is getting solved, 
security is getting solved, 

466
00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:37,850
liquidity fragmentation. 
I think we're in the early 

467
00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:40,930
stages of solving that with 
trust, minimized bridging and 

468
00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:42,330
stuff like that. 
I really think that that's gonna

469
00:23:42,330 --> 00:23:46,050
be one of the big leaps ahead in
the next cycle, the next four to

470
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:49,980
five years developer experience.
We're doing quite a lot of work 

471
00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:52,540
here. 
I think on on a couple of 

472
00:23:52,540 --> 00:23:55,460
things, which is our global 
order book which basically 

473
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:58,180
aggregates and propagates 
liquidity to every marketplace 

474
00:23:58,340 --> 00:24:02,660
that integrates with our wallet 
which is self custodial but 

475
00:24:02,660 --> 00:24:06,500
doesn't lock your liquidity per 
game, which is what the majority

476
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,100
of other sort of you know easy 
sign on wallets do as well. 

477
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:11,460
Yeah, I want to talk about the 
wallet a little bit too. 

478
00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:14,330
Passport. 
But so I read on, I read on one 

479
00:24:14,330 --> 00:24:19,210
of your blog articles that it 
says that immutable so that you 

480
00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:23,890
guys sort of expect that 40% of 
the $200 billion gaming industry

481
00:24:23,890 --> 00:24:29,330
will shift to what, three in 2 
to 2 1/2 years That I read that 

482
00:24:29,330 --> 00:24:31,850
and I was like that is a very 
bold claim. 

483
00:24:32,970 --> 00:24:36,130
Do you think that in two to two 
to five years all of these 

484
00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:39,530
problems will be solved and 
there will be enough incentive 

485
00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:42,120
for? 
40% of the gaming market 

486
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:47,160
essentially to drop what they're
doing and and move to web three.

487
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,320
I personally think this, this 
claim is is a little bit 

488
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,280
optimistic. 
Yeah, I don't actually, I don't 

489
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,520
necessarily agree with that 
claim set. 

490
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,400
I think the timelines are a bit 
aggressive on that, but it could

491
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,100
be referring to points of the 
market being sort of the the 

492
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:06,980
minimum bar of the amount which 
are in game items. 

493
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,740
And you know our conviction is 
certainly that's going to shift.

494
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:12,300
I I I think it would take a 
decade to shift for for the 

495
00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:14,980
whole thing. 
But I think we'll start to see 

496
00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:16,900
it's snowball as soon as you 
have like. 

497
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,180
I think the key inflection point
is there's probably 2 coming up 

498
00:25:19,180 --> 00:25:21,500
right, The first hit that says 
sustainable. 

499
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:24,740
And then second is this ability 
to go to cost like customers in 

500
00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:27,700
web two and say here's a much 
more effective model for running

501
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:29,980
your games and something we're 
not just choosing out of people 

502
00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:31,380
interested in building web Three
games. 

503
00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:33,910
It's become something you can 
pitch to everyone and it's like 

504
00:25:34,110 --> 00:25:36,110
pitching them. 
Hey, you should also launch your

505
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:40,510
game on consoles, not just PC, 
because this is now a thing that

506
00:25:40,510 --> 00:25:43,310
makes you way more money and is 
a way more successful way of 

507
00:25:43,310 --> 00:25:46,750
doing games. 
You guys were just at Games Con 

508
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:49,270
in Cologne. 
So for those who don't know, 

509
00:25:49,270 --> 00:25:53,710
like Games Con is like the it's 
like the Dev Con of games, 

510
00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:55,550
right? 
It's this massive conference 

511
00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:57,640
that's. 
Happens in cloning every year. 

512
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,240
Actually I was surprised to find
out that it's more like a BDC 

513
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,920
conference than the B2B 
conference, which I find it 

514
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,680
interesting, but but basically 
it's like, you know the the 

515
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,520
biggest games conference in the 
world, all the game developers 

516
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,320
are there, all the big 
publishing houses that they 

517
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:12,680
hold, the entire industry is 
there. 

518
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,120
I'd like to get a sense from you
like cuz I asked a friend who 

519
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,640
was there. 
Like we're just down the street 

520
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,240
from from from Ubisoft here. 
Like, I have a couple of friends

521
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760
who who work there and so I was 
asking your friend like, hey, 

522
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,490
like. 
You know, were there a lot of 

523
00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:29,890
with three games there and his 
sense was that there weren't 

524
00:26:29,890 --> 00:26:33,250
that many or like he didn't get 
a feel that a sense that that it

525
00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:35,570
was, it was a big part of like 
the the narrative at the 

526
00:26:35,570 --> 00:26:39,530
conference this year. 
So I'm curious if if you like, 

527
00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:44,170
echo that sentiment and what is 
the general approach that 

528
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:48,850
incumbents like Uvsoft, like 2K,
like EA, like these big game 

529
00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:52,250
publishers, you know, how do 
they look at Web Three? 

530
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:54,090
Are they adopting it? 
Do you know? 

531
00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:58,350
I I guess my question is like is
it similar to the way sort of 

532
00:26:58,350 --> 00:27:01,550
finance looks at Defy, like 
they're a little bit reluctant 

533
00:27:01,550 --> 00:27:04,270
to adopt it, They think it's a 
little bit scammy or or are they

534
00:27:04,270 --> 00:27:07,590
like wholeheartedly sort of like
throwing a lot of resources than

535
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:10,910
this so that they can really 
sort of like be at the forefront

536
00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:13,910
of this tech. 
There's certainly a big 

537
00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:16,030
difference I think in the 
promotional activities around 

538
00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:19,310
web three games just in terms of
how much of A splash they're 

539
00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:21,110
looking to make versus last 
year. 

540
00:27:21,270 --> 00:27:22,710
There was so much hype last 
year. 

541
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:26,090
People were trying to launch a 
lot of tokens and do a lot of 

542
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,290
speculative up and primary 
sales, which meant a lot of 

543
00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:29,930
noise. 
I think people are now more 

544
00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:32,810
focused on building games that 
have realized, so can they 

545
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:35,450
profitably grow and can they 
have sustainable economies? 

546
00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:38,370
I vastly prefer that. 
I think this is a very healthy 

547
00:27:38,370 --> 00:27:40,890
shift in the industry. 
The game developers we have 

548
00:27:40,890 --> 00:27:44,250
applying to us today are a very 
different profile of composition

549
00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:47,650
than a year ago. 
A year ago was mostly D5 devs or

550
00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:51,010
people who have been able to 
raise cash who were trying to 

551
00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:54,400
build a a game on top of it and 
some of them will succeed but 

552
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,240
most of them don't have the 
experience and build like unless

553
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,880
you've shipped a game to you 
know 10 million people we're not

554
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,880
that interested in in sort of or
or we rate our confidence of you

555
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,560
succeeding a lot lower I think 
is you know just inherit back 

556
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,840
the game it's a very specialist 
job is is sort of shipping 

557
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,160
successful games. 
The majority of people building 

558
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,680
today are now people who have 
successfully built things before

559
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,000
who are incorporating web three 
in their economies and we must 

560
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,460
prefer that and I think their 
their goal of sort of how do 

561
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:26,660
they drum up as much fanfare 
prelodge as possible is less the

562
00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:28,740
data point. 
We see service you know the last

563
00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:31,260
four months which we call a 
cycle we've on boarded more 

564
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:33,860
games than any other cycle in 
the middle history more than are

565
00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:37,260
you know the peak run etcetera. 
And obviously part of this is 

566
00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:39,980
the increase in market share. 
But we are still seeing a very 

567
00:28:39,980 --> 00:28:44,700
healthy flow of sort of credible
web to developers in terms of 

568
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,020
how we think about the market 
and sort of incumbents 

569
00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:48,380
approaching. 
And I think there's two things. 

570
00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:51,840
What is there? 
You know some of the names you 

571
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,520
mentioned already building a 
web. 

572
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,120
Three, they've already launched 
projects. 

573
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,880
I think the West will have a 
sort of by build partner 

574
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,640
analysis approach, which is how 
do they hedge the risk in the 

575
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,880
future of of knowing how to 
build successfully in Web 3 

576
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,680
without throwing all their eggs 
in the basket, right. 

577
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,240
Because it doesn't make sense 
that the beneficiaries of the 

578
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,280
current model, they are the 
incumbents who are able to sell 

579
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,420
$100 billion of digital assets 
without ever having to back the 

580
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:23,020
value of those assets as a 
liability in the future without 

581
00:29:23,020 --> 00:29:25,500
having any ongoing obligations. 
So of course it's a model that 

582
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,580
they're a fan of and these are 
risk minimizing enterprises. 

583
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:33,620
But that being said, out of the 
top 20 Western developers, you 

584
00:29:33,620 --> 00:29:36,420
could think in the world, A-Team
would have fulltime large teams 

585
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,580
staff to look at Web three, 
whether it's now, whether it's 

586
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:42,940
longer term because that Zynga 
announced Sugartown and 

587
00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:44,660
obviously some of these with 
with Asian roots. 

588
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:49,340
But I think that kind of leads 
into how we see the large 

589
00:29:49,340 --> 00:29:51,500
studios in age. 
Approach this and you literally 

590
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:53,940
have in Korea next on one of the
largest gaming studios in the 

591
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:57,020
world, putting the flagship IP 
Maple Story in the blockchain. 

592
00:29:57,580 --> 00:30:01,180
You have Fumio Kishadar, the 
Japanese Prime Minister saying 

593
00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:04,660
web three is the new form of 
capitalism and identifying Nft's

594
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,780
and Web 3 gaming as one of five 
core areas of national interest.

595
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:14,040
You have MUFG Mitsubishi Group 
investing in Web 3 gaming. 

596
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,480
So we we see really interesting 
leading metrics from Asia and 

597
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,560
this makes sense because Japan 
and Korea have always been to 

598
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,320
the vanguard of shifts in 
distribution rather than 

599
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,440
reacting to it. 
They were the ones who ushered 

600
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,640
in the free to play new game 
design genres. 

601
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,480
They're the ones who helped to 
usher in a lot of social gaming.

602
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,000
And I think they see themselves 
as, hey, if we can, you know, if

603
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,680
we can win on this and this will
be a huge boon and and this is 

604
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,720
the really important 
experimentation for the players 

605
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,060
benefits. 
The final note I'll just say on 

606
00:30:44,140 --> 00:30:49,060
all of this said is like, I 
really believe Web Three, you 

607
00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:51,740
know, Web Two's margin is Web 
Three's opportunity and that's 

608
00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:54,100
the case in gaming. 
So the people who will be most 

609
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:57,100
motivated are not number one, 
it's #2, it's the underdog. 

610
00:30:57,420 --> 00:30:59,620
And in gaming there's many of 
these and they're reasonable 

611
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:02,500
sizes, but we think it's going 
to be just going the lights on 

612
00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,260
back here. 
We think it's going to be 

613
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:06,900
companies who want to compete 
with the biggest incumbents the 

614
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:09,730
world by leveraging the growth 
strategies of web three. 

615
00:31:09,730 --> 00:31:12,050
And we've just seen in my 
opinion the most interesting 

616
00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:14,970
real world of example of this of
token driven user acquisition 

617
00:31:14,970 --> 00:31:17,810
ever play out, which is with 
World Coin where they were able 

618
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:21,970
to effectively like bootstrap 
from nothing a giant token and 

619
00:31:21,970 --> 00:31:25,210
then leverage the paper FDV to 
incentivize 20 million people to

620
00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:27,450
scan their readiness. 
Like say what you will about 

621
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:29,530
whether you think this is 
Systopian or utopian. 

622
00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:33,930
It's an incredibly effective way
to essentially do a vampire 

623
00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:36,770
attack in real life and then 
have massive incentives while 

624
00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:38,730
giving people ownership of the 
underlying network. 

625
00:31:39,450 --> 00:31:41,370
Cool. 
Well, let's this is really 

626
00:31:41,370 --> 00:31:44,170
interesting and I'd love to 
spend more time kind of like 

627
00:31:44,170 --> 00:31:46,530
asking talking about the market 
and where you think this is 

628
00:31:46,530 --> 00:31:47,530
going. 
But I do want to talk about the 

629
00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:50,250
tech a little bit and talking 
about it immutable as a as a 

630
00:31:50,250 --> 00:31:53,210
developer platform. 
You guys are doing some really 

631
00:31:53,210 --> 00:31:57,170
interesting things there and 
have just announced the ZK EVM 

632
00:31:57,170 --> 00:31:58,290
on Polygon. 
It just happens. 

633
00:31:58,290 --> 00:32:02,120
We got Sandeep on. 
Last week or two weeks ago to 

634
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,960
talk about the polygons work in 
ZK. 

635
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,200
So yeah, what is immutable as a 
product? 

636
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,440
Like who is this product for? 
And like you know talk about the

637
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,400
different aspects of this 
product and how they're how 

638
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,080
they're useful for people who 
want to get into it through 

639
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,280
gaming. 
You know either Nude Web 3 

640
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,520
developers that are looking to 
to build a game or existing 

641
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,680
gaming developers that want to 
shift to the Web 3 economies for

642
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,190
sure. 
So Immutable is we describe it 

643
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:32,030
as the one stop shop for web 
free games. 

644
00:32:32,350 --> 00:32:35,470
If they want to build anything, 
we can service it. 

645
00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:38,950
Everything from having an 
incredibly easy wallet to on 

646
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:42,510
board their customers, to having
the entire blockchain design 

647
00:32:42,510 --> 00:32:46,630
done for them to be able to use 
any marketplace instantly via 

648
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:48,870
our global order book. 
So if you list an asset for sale

649
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:51,710
on immutable, it lists on every 
marketplace that interacts 

650
00:32:51,710 --> 00:32:54,350
immutable, which means you're 
vastly increasing your volume. 

651
00:32:54,510 --> 00:32:57,180
And it's a much better platform 
for marketplaces because they 

652
00:32:57,180 --> 00:32:58,780
have much more volume that they 
can take these on. 

653
00:32:59,540 --> 00:33:03,220
We have things like enforceable 
royalties and mints so that you 

654
00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:06,780
can easily run a primary sale or
you can easily take ongoing 

655
00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:09,580
clips of assets no matter where 
they trade, if that's a really 

656
00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:12,540
important part of your business 
model, like it is for Digi 

657
00:33:12,540 --> 00:33:16,820
Didacu or some of these bigger 
games moving in from Web two. 

658
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:21,500
And all of this kind of comes 
back to, we're trying to operate

659
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:23,700
at the most important layer of 
the stack where we can help 

660
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,920
unify what would otherwise be 6 
different technical choices. 

661
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,840
And this is a really important 
reason behind why we did this 

662
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,160
Polygon partnership. 
You know, at the end of last 

663
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,040
year, Polygon was by far our 
biggest competitor for gaming. 

664
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,960
We we both had roughly 40% 
market share. 

665
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,640
We were both competing pretty 
viciously in market. 

666
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,600
And you know, grand pricing was 
going up astronomically for top 

667
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,400
deals. 
We had this vision of saying, 

668
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,480
well, actually, there's no 
reason for us to have to 

669
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,600
compete. 
We could have it so that players

670
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,320
can use the immutable platform 
and under the hood they could be

671
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,320
using the immutable ZKVM which 
leverages polygons ZKVM 

672
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,040
technology and and by far they 
are the best developers of this 

673
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,000
in in the world right now 
they're the closest to 

674
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,560
production if Italica said this 
a couple of months ago and and 

675
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,320
by combining the two we just 
simplified the developer choice 

676
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,960
hugely. 
I I think that's why our our win

677
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,600
rate has essentially doubled 
over the last six months since 

678
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,000
launching this partnership and 
why we've been able to have such

679
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,000
you know success in the market. 
And the reason I like that is it

680
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,889
means game these games spend 
less time wasting around what 

681
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:26,130
technical infrastructure they 
use and more time building 

682
00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:29,370
quality games And then the final
really important part to 

683
00:34:29,370 --> 00:34:31,650
immutable and I think probably 
what resonates with these game 

684
00:34:31,650 --> 00:34:34,730
developers the most is we are 
gamers and we build games. 

685
00:34:35,050 --> 00:34:38,489
I think the reason why even 
though we started out with far 

686
00:34:38,489 --> 00:34:41,370
less funding than any major 
blockchain in market, you know, 

687
00:34:41,969 --> 00:34:44,810
and and we pretty much until 
early last year didn't have any 

688
00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:47,010
war chest that was akin to 
these. 

689
00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:49,250
And obviously we now have a 
pretty sizable war chest. 

690
00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:52,540
The reason we are able to 
compete in and gain this market 

691
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:55,179
share is you know the salon is 
the world. 

692
00:34:55,179 --> 00:34:58,780
The the, you know, EOS is 
whoever was relevant back then. 

693
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:02,100
They cared about everything. 
They cared about winning Defy PF

694
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:05,740
P's, collectibles, gaming, RW, 
A's. 

695
00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:10,020
All we cared about was winning 
gaming and helping to usher in 

696
00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,100
you know real property rights 
for the 3.1 billion gamers 

697
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,340
around the world. 
We had built several games 

698
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:17,300
internally where we're now 
publishing three more. 

699
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:19,940
And I think that radical focus 
meant that we built a product 

700
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:22,980
that was fundamentally designed 
for this use case, but that we 

701
00:35:22,980 --> 00:35:25,340
also understood things on the 
economic side. 

702
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,260
If they were struggling with the
App Store, we were struggling 

703
00:35:27,260 --> 00:35:30,220
with the App Store because we 
were also at the coalface 

704
00:35:30,220 --> 00:35:31,900
building things with them. 
And I think that's been really 

705
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:36,140
essential to the sort of DNA of 
our product and product teams 

706
00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:39,780
today as well. 
Let's talk about the underlying 

707
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:43,060
platform here, So. 
I learned that there is 

708
00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:44,540
basically like 2 roll ups, 
right? 

709
00:35:44,540 --> 00:35:48,340
There's immutable X that's built
on Starkware and you guys just 

710
00:35:48,340 --> 00:35:53,780
launched this ZK AVM on Polygon.
Why did you shift to Polygon? 

711
00:35:53,780 --> 00:35:58,060
What was the impetus to do that 
and what will? 

712
00:35:58,950 --> 00:36:01,270
Is the idea for immutable X to 
be phased out? 

713
00:36:01,270 --> 00:36:04,830
Or you know are there still sort
of like some types of customers 

714
00:36:04,830 --> 00:36:08,870
that along use immutable X, both
are continuing to run, we 

715
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:11,070
maintain and upgrade both of 
them continuously. 

716
00:36:11,350 --> 00:36:14,670
And I think you know stock X is 
an exceptional technology as 

717
00:36:14,670 --> 00:36:18,830
well and ultimately we needed to
solve a couple of things and we 

718
00:36:18,830 --> 00:36:21,310
needed to solve an EVM 
compatible offering. 

719
00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:25,470
So before then the only ZK 
technology when we wanted to go 

720
00:36:25,470 --> 00:36:29,200
with CK security reasons was an 
app specific roll up which meant

721
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,000
you couldn't just use Solidity 
or copy paste your contracts. 

722
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,800
For me that one and that was the
choice that we had to make. 

723
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,360
I'm very happy with that choice.
But now we have the first ZKEV 

724
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,640
M's coming on market and it's 
essential for us to have this 

725
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
product offering. 
Ultimately we still think 90% of

726
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,200
developers will build using 
API's, but the people building 

727
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,560
now and a lot of the hardcore 
more advanced game development 

728
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,500
companies, D5 companies want to 
build with their own smart 

729
00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:00,340
contracts which means EVM 
compatibility makes this a lot 

730
00:37:00,340 --> 00:37:02,580
easier for them. 
But the second thing was more 

731
00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:06,780
pragmatic, which was sort of by 
by partnering with Polygon with 

732
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:11,420
their CKVM technology, we were 
able to provide this joint 

733
00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:15,100
offering to game developers 
which was this end game tech 

734
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:17,940
stack and also this end game 
commercial stack where they 

735
00:37:17,940 --> 00:37:20,420
could find it much easier rather
than having to choose between 

736
00:37:20,420 --> 00:37:23,280
Polygon or Immutable, they could
simply have a unified solution. 

737
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,800
And I think that's, you know, 
pretty much everyone who's 

738
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,160
originally deciding between the 
two has come to us and said it's

739
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,400
so much easier now. 
Like we find this much better, 

740
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:35,040
we get support from both, we're 
able to be much more successful 

741
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,160
in market. 
So I think partially a, you 

742
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,640
know, a product decision. 
I think that that ZKVM 

743
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,400
technology is exceptional. 
They obviously had what I think 

744
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,640
is one of the most successful 
examples of M and A and the Web 

745
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,560
3 history buying 3Z K teams two 
years ago and for roughly a 

746
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,400
billion dollars all up and and 
those teams have now turned into

747
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,320
the kind of CK technologies by 
using today but also on the 

748
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,200
commercial side. 
It just makes a ton of sense. 

749
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,520
How is this going to improve the
developer experience? 

750
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,720
And I guess you know for for 
let's say like a traditional 

751
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:10,960
game developer who wants to 
incorporate web 3 aspects into 

752
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,120
the game, you know, they might 
choose something like immutable.

753
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,600
What's the learning curve for 
that developer to have to, you 

754
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,880
know, learn to build EVM? 
Smart contracts? 

755
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,720
All the concepts? 
That introduces security, 

756
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,760
reentrancy, all these things, 
right? 

757
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,160
That takes people years to 
learn. 

758
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,760
How does that fair for 
traditional web gaming 

759
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,720
developers that are entering the
immutable ecosystem? 

760
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,840
The cool thing is that you can 
use smart contracts if you want 

761
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,990
to, but you don't have to and in
fact you can sign up and create 

762
00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:45,310
a web free game while never 
writing a smart contract. 

763
00:38:45,550 --> 00:38:48,910
You can use APIs for minting and
for trading. 

764
00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:53,110
You can basically use our 
template contracts and and soon 

765
00:38:53,110 --> 00:38:56,470
be sort of almost entirely 
automated for deployment of 

766
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:58,870
collections and manage them via 
APIs. 

767
00:38:59,190 --> 00:39:01,510
With much more to share here 
with Immutable hub where 

768
00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:04,070
eventually you can manage all of
this through a GUI and I I think

769
00:39:04,070 --> 00:39:06,750
that is incredibly important. 
So our vision has always been 

770
00:39:06,990 --> 00:39:09,110
make this as dead simple as 
possible for developers. 

771
00:39:09,590 --> 00:39:12,390
We have a very high NPS on on 
that, but we're sort of working 

772
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:15,270
continuously to to make that 
develop to make that easier. 

773
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:17,910
And I think as soon as we hit 
this inflection point from this 

774
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:21,550
being a really interesting sort 
of heavily funded niche of game 

775
00:39:21,550 --> 00:39:24,510
design to being a horizontal 
because this is not a vertical 

776
00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:26,310
right web through gaming is not 
going to be a category. 

777
00:39:26,830 --> 00:39:29,710
Web 3 is going to be the way you
own assets and multiply games 

778
00:39:30,190 --> 00:39:33,710
and at that point this has to be
like building incredibly easily 

779
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:39,260
on Unity SDK or in Unreal or 
with Stripe like APIs. 

780
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:42,420
And so a lot of what we also do 
is our ecosystem integrations. 

781
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:45,900
We have integrations coming 
out-of-the-box from day one, the

782
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:48,860
ZKD and Main net for Unity and 
for Unreal where you can 

783
00:39:48,860 --> 00:39:50,940
basically leverage our SDK from 
day one. 

784
00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:57,620
Interesting and so talk about a 
bit about the SDK and what's 

785
00:39:57,620 --> 00:40:00,860
possible to do with the SDK like
you know. 

786
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,200
So you're building a game, Would
you want to start using the NSDK

787
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,920
early on or is it possible to 
take like an existing game and 

788
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,280
sort of like strap on the SDK in
order to incorporate web three 

789
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,520
mechanics? 
Yeah. 

790
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,640
So look, the majority of the 
stuff right now is initiating 

791
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,120
things like transfers, trades, 
mints, even things like forging.

792
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,200
So you take say 5 assets, you 
destroy them and you mint 

793
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,040
something that it's required 
input output and that's like 

794
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,210
upgrading say. 
You know, 5 common legals or 

795
00:40:29,210 --> 00:40:31,770
rarely 5 common gods and chain 
cards. 

796
00:40:32,530 --> 00:40:35,930
And we we've even launched 
things like pushing where you 

797
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:39,010
can basically have this done 
automatically under the hood up 

798
00:40:39,010 --> 00:40:41,290
to a certain value threshold, 
which is how we think about the 

799
00:40:41,290 --> 00:40:44,410
centralization. 
And so users can always set kind

800
00:40:44,410 --> 00:40:47,370
of almost the the parameters to 
how much they're happy for the 

801
00:40:47,370 --> 00:40:49,650
game to sign on their behalf. 
And then they can kind of say, 

802
00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:52,610
well, I, I want to, you know, 
specifically approve or sign 

803
00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:54,610
things about a certain value 
threshold, which to me makes a 

804
00:40:54,610 --> 00:40:56,270
ton of sense. 
And it's the right balance 

805
00:40:56,270 --> 00:40:58,510
between the two as long as 
they're always the ones in 

806
00:40:58,510 --> 00:41:01,830
control and the technology is 
architectured to be self 

807
00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:04,910
custodial. 
So the vision is you'll be able 

808
00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:07,390
to initiate all of this 
incredibly easily through like 

809
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:11,830
Sdks we expose, through pretty 
much every version of Unreal of 

810
00:41:11,870 --> 00:41:15,310
Unity and obviously trying to 
work with the app stores as 

811
00:41:15,310 --> 00:41:18,270
well. 
What's it like working with the 

812
00:41:18,270 --> 00:41:20,310
app stores? 
Cuz I realize it's probably 

813
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,880
well, one of the big challenges 
of for the for the Web 3 gaming 

814
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:31,400
space is some of the barriers of
having the work, particularly I 

815
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,880
think with Apple or having Apple
sort of approve certain types of

816
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,440
of applications. 
Is that getting better do you 

817
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,800
think? 
Or are we still sort of the same

818
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,000
place we were a couple years 
ago? 

819
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,970
So the trend is toward. 
More open permissions for app 

820
00:41:49,970 --> 00:41:52,850
stores, for digital assets and 
lower fees. 

821
00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:55,170
We will see exactly how that 
plays out. 

822
00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:57,970
I don't have a crystal ball, but
you know she's some really 

823
00:41:57,970 --> 00:42:00,450
interesting things. 
One you have a lot of increasing

824
00:42:00,450 --> 00:42:03,170
economic pressure. 
There are more alternatives able

825
00:42:03,170 --> 00:42:05,970
to download things. 
You have the EU forcing side 

826
00:42:05,970 --> 00:42:09,570
loading within the EU, which say
you know a really big deal of 

827
00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:11,090
apps. 
So you should be able to 

828
00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:13,970
download apps through to any App
Store, not just the the one 

829
00:42:13,970 --> 00:42:18,310
provided on the device. 
You have Google basically 

830
00:42:19,150 --> 00:42:22,750
allowing NFTS inside of their 
apps, which I think was a pretty

831
00:42:22,750 --> 00:42:25,470
landmark announcement. 
I mean that provided just a ton 

832
00:42:25,470 --> 00:42:27,790
of of sort of compliance, 
clarity to a lot of people 

833
00:42:27,790 --> 00:42:30,190
building and now a lot of people
are building their sort of 

834
00:42:30,750 --> 00:42:36,590
Android first on boarding you 
have Epic Store which is very 

835
00:42:36,590 --> 00:42:40,070
pro web, three as well. 
You have you know 40, I think 20

836
00:42:40,070 --> 00:42:42,310
web three games live on there. 
Godson chain went live in there 

837
00:42:42,310 --> 00:42:45,430
in the last few months, which is
a massive source of distribution

838
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:47,330
so. 
I I think this is really 

839
00:42:47,330 --> 00:42:49,730
interesting sort of pressure 
mounting on the biggest 

840
00:42:49,730 --> 00:42:52,810
incumbents as to how they can 
actually clarify permissions and

841
00:42:52,810 --> 00:42:55,450
fees. 
Ultimately you can use say the 

842
00:42:55,450 --> 00:43:00,250
iOS store today if you you do 
two things one is off platform 

843
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:04,290
NFT's not used or usable the 
utility inside the game and the 

844
00:43:04,290 --> 00:43:07,850
2nd is you pay clips on these 
assets and and you know you just

845
00:43:07,850 --> 00:43:10,850
kind of pay that the Apple tax 
it's very tricky obviously with 

846
00:43:10,850 --> 00:43:14,210
secondary markets went to to 
sort of add a tax onto it so. 

847
00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:17,130
I'm pretty bullish on where this
is going to get to over the next

848
00:43:17,130 --> 00:43:18,130
few years. 
I think there's already 

849
00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:20,890
sufficient clarity for people to
launch mobile first games where 

850
00:43:20,890 --> 00:43:22,730
suddenly focusing on it. 
At this point, I think they may 

851
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:24,890
be the first ones to mainstream 
success. 

852
00:43:25,130 --> 00:43:29,690
But that is kind of the the 
billion or trillion dollar 

853
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:34,250
question is how will App Store 
rules interact with this open 

854
00:43:34,250 --> 00:43:38,410
ecosystem. 
So I'd like to also talk about 

855
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:45,780
about passport, which is your, I
guess like non custodial sign in

856
00:43:45,780 --> 00:43:49,820
or identity solution. 
Yeah, what is passport and 

857
00:43:49,820 --> 00:43:52,740
what's what technology is it 
leveraging MPC? 

858
00:43:53,580 --> 00:43:56,020
Yeah, How does that work? 
It does. 

859
00:43:56,020 --> 00:44:00,820
So Passport is our easy onboard 
wallet that is completely self 

860
00:44:00,820 --> 00:44:04,660
custodial and is your universal 
wallet for every single game or 

861
00:44:04,660 --> 00:44:06,260
marketplace or wallet you 
interact with. 

862
00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:10,460
And this is our vision if 
there's Full Passport, the only 

863
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:14,980
easy onboarding wallets you had.
Used a single state MPC system 

864
00:44:15,220 --> 00:44:19,540
where in order to both maintain 
security but also have easy user

865
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:23,820
experience, they basically 
generated a new wallet per user 

866
00:44:23,860 --> 00:44:25,940
per game. 
They could give that game 

867
00:44:26,060 --> 00:44:28,820
escalated privileges for 
transactions because it was 

868
00:44:28,820 --> 00:44:32,020
localized to that games 
ecosystem, but it meant that for

869
00:44:32,020 --> 00:44:35,300
security reasons you can't 
expand that to your general 

870
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:37,540
funds. 
And this is obviously terrible 

871
00:44:38,060 --> 00:44:41,870
if a user plays 10 games. 
You have 10 different wallets 

872
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:45,230
and there is no unified 
liquidity or network value being

873
00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:47,630
created. 
If I'm onboarding into web 

874
00:44:47,630 --> 00:44:50,990
three, I can't use that cash to 
go buy assets from, you know, 

875
00:44:50,990 --> 00:44:52,750
another game like in 
Counterstrike Go. 

876
00:44:52,750 --> 00:44:55,470
I can't trade with someone in 
legal budgets particularly 

877
00:44:55,470 --> 00:44:57,510
easily. 
And so our vision with Passport 

878
00:44:57,510 --> 00:45:00,590
was to solve that problem while 
not compromising on self custody

879
00:45:00,590 --> 00:45:03,030
and while not compromising on 
user experience. 

880
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:07,680
And the way we solve this is 
with the multi Seq architecture 

881
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,960
system. 
It leverages 2 Mvcs, one is in 

882
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,600
Immutables custody and we 
actually act as basically a 

883
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,200
guardian. 
So we basically will refuse to 

884
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,400
sign transactions that don't 
comply with. 

885
00:45:21,090 --> 00:45:24,450
The either the economic missions
that you've set or a general set

886
00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:27,650
of sort of heuristics we use to 
to analyze bad behavior. 

887
00:45:27,890 --> 00:45:31,250
And of course the other one is 
the the user's self custody 

888
00:45:31,570 --> 00:45:35,730
which is held in cloud storage 
in in their legal self custody 

889
00:45:35,730 --> 00:45:39,890
by our MPC and and the multi 
cigar architecture and they can 

890
00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:42,130
kind of opt out of this. 
Early points means you can 

891
00:45:42,130 --> 00:45:44,970
default to self custody while 
still letting them sign up in 

892
00:45:44,970 --> 00:45:47,210
under 5 seconds. 
We've just run a B tests. 

893
00:45:47,570 --> 00:45:50,930
This converts 250% better than 
you know, your default wallet, 

894
00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:53,450
and we're looking to increase 
this drastically. 

895
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:55,410
And then that's already huge. 
So you're already spending less 

896
00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:59,410
than 1/3 in user acquisition 
costs if you use passport versus

897
00:45:59,410 --> 00:46:01,090
a traditional wallet today for 
one body. 

898
00:46:02,290 --> 00:46:03,730
So you say it's fully self 
custody. 

899
00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:07,450
I mean, I understand that. 
I mean, I'd say it's more of a 

900
00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:10,930
hybrid custody because immutable
does have like another piece of 

901
00:46:10,930 --> 00:46:14,650
that Shard. 
So technically immutable could 

902
00:46:14,930 --> 00:46:19,530
if it wanted to with whole or 
sensor transactions, or I mean, 

903
00:46:19,530 --> 00:46:21,530
I guess probably not because you
can't see the actual 

904
00:46:21,530 --> 00:46:23,690
transaction, you can just see 
the signature request, right? 

905
00:46:25,690 --> 00:46:28,010
Precisely. 
And they can always remove us 

906
00:46:28,050 --> 00:46:30,450
unilaterally. 
So there's no ability for us to 

907
00:46:30,810 --> 00:46:33,370
say, censor transactions if we 
really wanted to. 

908
00:46:33,810 --> 00:46:37,170
OK, the user can remove you from
the MPC. 

909
00:46:37,610 --> 00:46:39,530
So it's an opt out system, 
right. 

910
00:46:39,570 --> 00:46:42,210
OK. 
And are there because I mean 

911
00:46:42,210 --> 00:46:46,690
we're dealing with like users 
that are fairly, you know, not 

912
00:46:46,690 --> 00:46:48,290
like necessarily super 
technical. 

913
00:46:48,810 --> 00:46:52,850
Are there ways for the user to 
recover their? 

914
00:46:53,170 --> 00:46:54,730
Like are the recovery 
mechanisms? 

915
00:46:54,730 --> 00:46:58,450
Say the user loses access to to 
their. 

916
00:46:58,890 --> 00:47:01,330
Is it like a like an e-mail 
login or like? 

917
00:47:01,570 --> 00:47:02,610
How does it work on the user 
side? 

918
00:47:02,610 --> 00:47:04,290
Yeah, so we we use Oauth at the 
moment. 

919
00:47:04,290 --> 00:47:06,810
So you can log in with Apple, 
you can log in with Google, you 

920
00:47:06,810 --> 00:47:09,730
can log in with your e-mail 
exactly, and it's registered to 

921
00:47:09,730 --> 00:47:11,690
your address, OK. 
And so the and. 

922
00:47:11,690 --> 00:47:17,770
So the user then sort of like 
backs up their Shard in any 

923
00:47:17,770 --> 00:47:20,450
number of you know cloud 
providers. 

924
00:47:20,450 --> 00:47:23,330
It's encrypted like with the 
password I guess. 

925
00:47:24,010 --> 00:47:28,450
Yes, ultimately that's 
automatically set like saved in 

926
00:47:28,450 --> 00:47:31,290
the MPC database associated with
your e-mail. 

927
00:47:31,330 --> 00:47:34,450
If you can access your e-mail, 
you can access that and that 

928
00:47:34,450 --> 00:47:36,930
wallet. 
But our vision here is really 

929
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:38,890
where. 
So you can be able to like zero 

930
00:47:38,930 --> 00:47:42,690
to 100 or $200.00 of value if 
you want to store large chunks 

931
00:47:42,690 --> 00:47:44,260
of value. 
We think that's the point. 

932
00:47:44,260 --> 00:47:46,780
You say, well, hey, here's the 
options available to you. 

933
00:47:46,780 --> 00:47:48,540
Here are the risks associated 
with each. 

934
00:47:48,820 --> 00:47:52,660
I think that's kind of the way 
it needs to be done, Okay And 

935
00:47:52,660 --> 00:47:54,260
are there options? 
I mean can you use this? 

936
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:56,980
Also decide like I don't want to
use passport like I have a 

937
00:47:56,980 --> 00:47:59,940
Ledger, I have some other 
custody solution I might use 

938
00:47:59,940 --> 00:48:02,340
like an MPC wallet or like a 
custody solution so you can log 

939
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:05,140
in with that as well. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

940
00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:06,740
We support everything 
out-of-the-box. 

941
00:48:07,740 --> 00:48:09,500
Passport is just the offering 
that we have. 

942
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:12,300
I think the nice thing with 
passport is because. 

943
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,880
It integrates in a vertically 
integrated manner with our 

944
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,200
control of say like the ZK 
technology and the order book 

945
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:22,280
and the wallet. 
We can do things like say you 

946
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,920
know shared sequencing or 
crosswalk liquidity in really 

947
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,200
seamless ways that other 
platforms can't because they 

948
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:29,440
only have one layer in the 
stack. 

949
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:32,600
And so our vision is no matter 
what asset you're trading on any

950
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:37,320
marketplace, on any game, on any
roll up using any wallet, you 

951
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:38,880
could do so atomically and 
seamlessly. 

952
00:48:39,470 --> 00:48:43,750
With no loss in security or sort
of custody with anyone else. 

953
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:46,910
And this is this vision of this 
sort of universal liquidity for 

954
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:49,310
digital value. 
Yeah, talk a little bit more 

955
00:48:49,310 --> 00:48:51,750
about you. 
We talked about this before the 

956
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:54,990
show, the enforceable royalties.
What's that about? 

957
00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:58,470
Yeah. 
So this is obviously pretty 

958
00:48:58,470 --> 00:49:02,190
topical and you have the 
marketplace wars over the last 

959
00:49:02,190 --> 00:49:05,740
couple of years first? 
As you had the blurs and the the

960
00:49:06,540 --> 00:49:09,060
XDY choose, the world basically 
say hey we're not going to 

961
00:49:09,060 --> 00:49:12,060
respect royalties and suddenly 
soak up a huge chunk of pro 

962
00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:15,380
trading volume. 
Then you have oversea car with 

963
00:49:15,380 --> 00:49:17,940
some solutions and and sort of 
you know contracts people use to

964
00:49:18,340 --> 00:49:22,060
to make sure that they can only 
be traded these collections on 

965
00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:26,220
royalty respecting marketplaces 
and and smart contracts. 

966
00:49:27,820 --> 00:49:31,020
I think this is all indicative 
of the fact that this really has

967
00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:33,680
to be sold in the product layer.
Just to kind of understand the 

968
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,080
problem here. 
The problem is that when you 

969
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,640
have assets that are tied to 
royalty, so like I I, I create 

970
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:45,720
like some some suite of assets I
I put those out on say open sea 

971
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,400
unless that contract has 
royalties built into it at the 

972
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,880
contract level you're sort of 
trusting the the the platform to

973
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,070
extract and deliver the 
royalties that and and that's so

974
00:49:59,070 --> 00:50:01,590
the issue where if you take 
those assets somewhere else if 

975
00:50:01,590 --> 00:50:04,310
you like just you know send them
to someone those royalties are 

976
00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:08,910
not being perceived by the the 
some of the creator. 

977
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:12,550
Precisely. 
So basically, it's really hard 

978
00:50:12,550 --> 00:50:15,710
to enforce royalties with 
traditional NFT smart contracts 

979
00:50:15,710 --> 00:50:18,390
and NFC marketplaces. 
There have been various sense of

980
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:20,990
solving this, but ultimately it 
appears as though the game 

981
00:50:20,990 --> 00:50:24,270
theory, particularly on a theory
in layer one, is to converge 

982
00:50:24,270 --> 00:50:26,550
toward a zero or no royalties 
world. 

983
00:50:26,890 --> 00:50:29,690
Because that's the world in 
which you have to be in order to

984
00:50:29,690 --> 00:50:32,090
have any meaningful market share
as a marketplace. 

985
00:50:32,490 --> 00:50:35,330
All these pro traders who join 
the vast majority of all today, 

986
00:50:36,810 --> 00:50:39,690
our approach has kind of been 
from day one make this 

987
00:50:39,690 --> 00:50:42,970
enforceable at the protocol 
level which we can we can do due

988
00:50:42,970 --> 00:50:46,290
to sort of a couple of things we
designed on immutable exits 

989
00:50:46,290 --> 00:50:48,890
because we have a single 
sequencer, we can kind of 

990
00:50:48,890 --> 00:50:53,370
enforce these royalties from day
one with immutable C, KBM. 

991
00:50:53,370 --> 00:50:55,450
It's going to be more of a 
decentralized solution where? 

992
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,840
We're we're actually sort of 
engineering the ways that smart 

993
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,360
contracts respect royalties and 
people can cannot do and but I 

994
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,200
think both the principles are we
firmly believe that enforceable 

995
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,600
royalties have to be available 
protocol wide in one of the 

996
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,040
marketplaces to be able to 
fairly compete and gain their 

997
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,920
market share and gain developers
to be rewarded. 

998
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,560
And the the thesis is quite 
simple, which is you know, if 

999
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,600
you have a counterstrike go or 
mad at the gathering. 

1000
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,600
Mad at the gathering has an 
estimated secondary market cap 

1001
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,720
of. 10 to $20 billion of cards. 
But every year they've got to 

1002
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:31,520
make new, more impressive cards 
than everything else in 

1003
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,960
existence, making them less than
I got to sell my old Magic 

1004
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,840
cards. 
Yeah, like that. 

1005
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:38,400
They, they're tremendously 
valuable, right. 

1006
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,480
But MTD, the company has no way 
of tapping into that, the value 

1007
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,240
of what they've created. 
That's why they have to 

1008
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:45,920
basically dump on everyone else 
every year by creating this new,

1009
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,400
more powerful stuff. 
And so suddenly we can have a 

1010
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,160
business model that doesn't rely
on that. 

1011
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,880
That's like, hey, magic just 
gets 5% of every trade. 

1012
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,740
Magic's only incentive would be.
Increase volume, which might 

1013
00:51:56,740 --> 00:52:01,220
mean make new cars that make the
game better and grow the player 

1014
00:52:01,220 --> 00:52:02,860
base. 
It might mean throwing more 

1015
00:52:02,860 --> 00:52:05,260
tournaments, might mean creating
an E sports league, whatever 

1016
00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:08,180
they can do to increase the the 
value to players of that 

1017
00:52:08,180 --> 00:52:09,780
economy. 
And so you have complete 

1018
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:11,820
incentive alignment even though 
it can be an incredibly 

1019
00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:13,580
profitable system. 
So that that's why I've been so 

1020
00:52:13,580 --> 00:52:16,660
passionate about it is it 
actually enables a much better 

1021
00:52:16,740 --> 00:52:20,100
more incentive aligned business 
model that we must protect in 

1022
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,740
order to you know essentially 
not have adverse selection or 

1023
00:52:23,740 --> 00:52:27,750
this kind of you know. 
Tragedy where we we do a short 

1024
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:30,710
term benefit to players by 
giving them cheap trades and 

1025
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:33,630
there's no incentive for game 
developers to build or to build 

1026
00:52:33,630 --> 00:52:35,110
based on this much Better 
Business model. 

1027
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:39,230
So why is it that this is not 
enforceable at the smart 

1028
00:52:39,230 --> 00:52:40,670
contract level? 
I mean couldn't we just build 

1029
00:52:40,670 --> 00:52:44,710
like a better year year C 721 
kind of contract or that would 

1030
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:46,390
enforce royalties? 
Is that possible? 

1031
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:50,430
It is, but it's just very hard 
to enforce if the collections 

1032
00:52:50,430 --> 00:52:52,870
themselves aren't originally a 
sort of. 

1033
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,080
And written to be to be opt into
those smart contracts. 

1034
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:58,480
And so a lot of the volumes say 
in NF T's has been the legacy 

1035
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,920
collections which weren't 
incorporated into this. 

1036
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,640
So I think that's partly what 
what has given this decision 

1037
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,720
with Open C But be that the the 
kind of more simple solution is 

1038
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,160
if it's relying on individual 
say marketplaces or individual 

1039
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,800
collections to make this 
decision, it's just going to be 

1040
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,720
an incredibly fraught debate. 
The answer just has to be sort 

1041
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:19,360
of protocol wide. 
This is an available standard 

1042
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,560
that that can be enforced. 
OK. 

1043
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,550
So you guys enforce this by 
having a sequencer include the 

1044
00:53:26,550 --> 00:53:31,350
the sort of the royalty or like 
extract the royalty when when 

1045
00:53:31,350 --> 00:53:34,630
building the block? 
Precisely so. 

1046
00:53:34,670 --> 00:53:38,590
That's on a mutable X, on stock 
X at absentee rollout. 

1047
00:53:38,590 --> 00:53:40,790
But we can do that on a mutable 
ZKDM. 

1048
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:42,230
We're going to have a slightly 
different approach. 

1049
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:44,350
I think we'll be we'll be 
sharing more details. 

1050
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:48,830
OK, cool. 
So I want to talk a little bit 

1051
00:53:48,830 --> 00:53:53,650
about the token. 
So this, this IMX token which is

1052
00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:56,410
actually like yeah trading today
and you know I checked there's 

1053
00:53:56,410 --> 00:54:00,930
like $13 million of trading 
volume somewhere around that. 

1054
00:54:01,250 --> 00:54:05,250
And you know actually I found 
the token price like you know 

1055
00:54:05,250 --> 00:54:08,890
over time has stayed I guess 
like pretty consistent except 

1056
00:54:08,890 --> 00:54:13,410
for you know 11 peak where I 
guess probably during the during

1057
00:54:13,410 --> 00:54:17,770
the bull market but hasn't 
hasn't lost a lot of its value 

1058
00:54:17,770 --> 00:54:19,850
compared to I guess like when it
was initially launched. 

1059
00:54:19,850 --> 00:54:21,920
So I guess that's it's a good 
thing. 

1060
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,000
I guess how much do you think of
that volume is speculators and 

1061
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,120
how much is tied to actual 
platform activity? 

1062
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,360
I guess maybe a prequer source 
to that question is what's the 

1063
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,360
token use? 
What's the utility of the token?

1064
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,480
Yeah. 
Look, so the token's utility is 

1065
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,440
basically immutable, operates 
very differently to most of the 

1066
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,480
blockchains in terms of our 
business model, rather than 

1067
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:49,310
having say, sort of this. 
L1 chain thesis and around value

1068
00:54:49,310 --> 00:54:52,870
occurring to the token, the 
chains and we will obviously 

1069
00:54:53,150 --> 00:54:55,910
IMAX is going to be the call gas
currency of the beautiful C KBM.

1070
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:57,990
I think we're now you know 
capture a lot of that narrative 

1071
00:54:57,990 --> 00:55:00,550
which is really interesting. 
But our philosophy has always 

1072
00:55:00,550 --> 00:55:03,550
been we think a much better and 
much more aligned business model

1073
00:55:04,430 --> 00:55:08,230
is to make the most liquid value
add platform possible for web 

1074
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:10,190
two games and take 2% of every 
trade. 

1075
00:55:11,070 --> 00:55:13,430
And in this way we can build 
something that has completely 

1076
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:16,720
aligned incentives developers. 
When they make money or when 

1077
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:21,600
users trades, we're making money
and every single time those 

1078
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,600
assets are traded 20% of the 
fees must be paid for an IMAX. 

1079
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,880
And so I'm actually actually has
sort of you know clear 

1080
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,720
fundamental utility which I 
think is you know people can 

1081
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:36,240
sort of look at that and sort of
you know build their utility 

1082
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:39,800
models around and rather than. 
Sort of alternatives in in 

1083
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,640
market. 
So that's that's our utility 

1084
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,880
that's been the clear goal since
day one is to really have this 

1085
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,560
integral into the protocol and 
and how we add value to every 

1086
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,160
single thread. 
And then yeah, the, the volume, 

1087
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,760
you know how much of the volume 
you think is or do you have a 

1088
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,240
sense of is that something 
you're tracking somehow? 

1089
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:58,880
I mean like how much of that is 
tied to actual activity on the 

1090
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,480
platform and how much of it is 
speculative? 

1091
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,480
Well, the vast majority would be
people. 

1092
00:56:07,550 --> 00:56:12,350
Trading based on what they sort 
of perceive the utility to be. 

1093
00:56:13,830 --> 00:56:17,710
I wouldn't necessarily call that
speculative, but I can up to the

1094
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:20,590
reader's interpretation. 
I think the most important thing

1095
00:56:20,590 --> 00:56:24,230
is this thing has a clear right 
kind of that we've set in stone 

1096
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:27,910
since day one. 
And our vision is to construct 

1097
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:30,670
really just some of the most 
sensible tokenomics in the 

1098
00:56:30,670 --> 00:56:32,310
world. 
So the few things that really 

1099
00:56:32,310 --> 00:56:34,730
excite me about. 
The token, and obviously 

1100
00:56:34,730 --> 00:56:36,530
immutable, you know doesn't 
generate this. 

1101
00:56:36,530 --> 00:56:39,370
This is run by the Digital World
Foundation but is 1. 

1102
00:56:39,650 --> 00:56:42,050
Every single person who trades 
unimmutable can own part of the 

1103
00:56:42,050 --> 00:56:44,610
protocol. 
And that's because every single 

1104
00:56:44,610 --> 00:56:46,530
time the trade you're owning 
IMAX tokens. 

1105
00:56:47,290 --> 00:56:51,010
And the vision of this is really
cool because you have 3.1 

1106
00:56:51,010 --> 00:56:53,890
billion gamers. 
If this takes off, everyone can 

1107
00:56:53,890 --> 00:56:56,330
own a part of this open 
ecosystem of what the future of 

1108
00:56:56,330 --> 00:56:57,770
digital property ownership is 
going to be. 

1109
00:56:58,010 --> 00:56:59,930
And that's that's probably my my
favorite thing. 

1110
00:57:00,630 --> 00:57:02,470
And the second thing you know 
you talked about how the the 

1111
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:05,350
price has been quite stable. 
Obviously you're not here to 

1112
00:57:05,350 --> 00:57:09,870
comment on prices but the the 
circulating supply is much 

1113
00:57:09,870 --> 00:57:12,950
higher than most alternatives. 
It's it's, it's sort of used a 

1114
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:16,190
lot more and we've been able to 
maintain that ranking or improve

1115
00:57:16,190 --> 00:57:19,750
that ranking from 150 to 50 over
the last year in circulating 

1116
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:21,830
supply even despite everything 
I'm locking. 

1117
00:57:21,950 --> 00:57:25,910
I think that's because it's sort
of the you know the the utility 

1118
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:28,310
in the long term alignment we 
have from holders today. 

1119
00:57:29,150 --> 00:57:30,430
And then the final thing I'd 
say. 

1120
00:57:30,510 --> 00:57:34,790
Is that obviously the vast 
majority of I MX allocated to 

1121
00:57:34,790 --> 00:57:37,550
ecosystem grants. 
The vast majority of these 

1122
00:57:37,550 --> 00:57:40,390
grants, all of which are issued 
by the foundation, are almost 

1123
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:42,950
completely under written. 
So we don't just give them out 

1124
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:46,510
to games in exchange for grants.
The games actually have to 

1125
00:57:46,510 --> 00:57:49,150
deliver volume to the protocol 
in order to earn those grants. 

1126
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:53,230
And right now, in order for 
roughly 180 million of tokens 

1127
00:57:53,230 --> 00:57:56,190
which have been allocated over 
$12 billion in protocol volume 

1128
00:57:56,190 --> 00:57:58,470
has to be achieved in order of 
them to even be given out. 

1129
00:57:58,910 --> 00:58:02,750
So in terms of ecosystem 
allocations we run, you know, 

1130
00:58:03,390 --> 00:58:06,070
the recommendations here are 
incredibly efficient in terms of

1131
00:58:06,310 --> 00:58:09,070
how they're structured for 
grants versus returns. 

1132
00:58:09,350 --> 00:58:10,990
And game developers love it 
because they know that 

1133
00:58:10,990 --> 00:58:13,950
ultimately you know that there's
no supply just going out there, 

1134
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:16,510
no value being bought. 
Everyone has to contribute to 

1135
00:58:16,510 --> 00:58:19,590
the ecosystem in order to sort 
of end up owning part of the 

1136
00:58:19,590 --> 00:58:21,470
protocol, which I think is 
really important. 

1137
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:26,110
Very cool. 
Yeah, I mean maybe the wrap up 

1138
00:58:26,110 --> 00:58:32,020
here, what is the, yeah, what's 
the road map and what should 

1139
00:58:32,020 --> 00:58:36,420
people be looking into when it 
comes to immutable? 

1140
00:58:36,420 --> 00:58:39,140
How can people follow the 
protocol also in the project? 

1141
00:58:39,580 --> 00:58:43,860
And yeah, any any final 
thoughts? 

1142
00:58:45,580 --> 00:58:49,340
Yeah, look, test that just went 
live 2 weeks ago. 

1143
00:58:49,900 --> 00:58:52,260
We have pretty much every game 
on the platform signed up to 

1144
00:58:52,260 --> 00:58:54,460
Passport. 
We've just done our biggest 

1145
00:58:54,940 --> 00:58:56,460
quarter of onboarding games 
ever. 

1146
00:58:56,890 --> 00:58:58,570
In the company's history off the
back of this Polygon 

1147
00:58:58,570 --> 00:59:01,930
announcement, basically you know
increase the album rate by 75% 

1148
00:59:02,330 --> 00:59:05,610
and we've got over four years of
runway way over the long term 

1149
00:59:05,930 --> 00:59:08,050
with the face of a year to get 
that hit before and we're here 

1150
00:59:08,050 --> 00:59:11,450
to change digital ownership for 
good and and the thing I'd say 

1151
00:59:11,450 --> 00:59:15,850
is look coming up we have main 
net in quarter four we've got 

1152
00:59:16,330 --> 00:59:19,010
God's Unchained going mobile end
of this year, Gold of Guardians,

1153
00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:22,890
Shad Bound, Infinite Victory all
immutable titles being published

1154
00:59:22,890 --> 00:59:25,580
this year. 
And we've got a ton of our 

1155
00:59:25,580 --> 00:59:28,340
biggest games on the platform. 
On the rise, yeah, across the 

1156
00:59:28,340 --> 00:59:33,540
ages #1 in in France strategy 
game and in Australia you have 

1157
00:59:33,940 --> 00:59:36,260
Illuvium going out of that open 
beta imminently. 

1158
00:59:36,260 --> 00:59:39,460
Probably one of the most hyped 
games in in Web 3 right now. 

1159
00:59:39,660 --> 00:59:42,500
I'm we're really just excited by
the continued raise of the 

1160
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:45,260
caliber of quality of games 
right now. 

1161
00:59:45,260 --> 00:59:48,100
And you know, as I said, you 
can't play the magic wand on the

1162
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:50,360
timelines, but. 
It's pretty clear that a single 

1163
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,960
hit is going to pull gasoline on
everything and catalyze what has

1164
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,200
already been a very heavily 
invested in categories. 

1165
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,600
So personally, we're actually 
thrilled with the pace and 

1166
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,640
progress of things. 
I think it's just continued to 

1167
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,800
build to despair and help people
get to these hits faster, more 

1168
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,840
profitably and more sustainably.
Great. 

1169
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:13,240
Robbie, thanks for coming on and
telling us all about Immutable 

1170
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,680
and also I've learned a ton 
about about web through gaming. 

1171
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:17,880
So this has been great. 
Thank you. 

1172
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:20,440
Thanks for having me. 
Pleasure. 

1173
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,320
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1174
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,320
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1175
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,680
You can find and subscribe to 
the show on iTunes, Spotify, 

1176
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,760
YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever
you're listening to podcasts. 

1177
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,880
And if you have a Google Home or
Alexa device, you can tell it. 

1178
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,960
To listen to the latest episode 
of the Epicenter podcast, go to 

1179
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,120
epicenter.tv, subscribe for a 
full list of places where you 

1180
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,360
can watch and listen. 
And while you're there, be sure 

1181
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,800
to sign up for the newsletter so
you get new episodes in your 

1182
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:49,920
inbox as they're released. 
If you want to interact with us 

1183
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,640
guest or other podcast 
listeners, you can follow us on 

1184
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,800
Twitter and please leave us a 
review on iTunes. 

1185
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,320
It helps people find the show 
and we're always happy to read 

1186
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,720
them. 
So thanks so much and we look 

1187
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:07,960
forward to being back next week.
I want I want I want I want I 

1188
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,520
want I want I want, I want.