1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,520 I have felt that there's a lot of sort of like inequality in 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,560 the sort of standard corporate system and how corporations work 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,360 and how, you know, borders prevent, you know, sort of human 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:14,400 capital from crossing them. I really thought that we could 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,080 basically incorporate organizations in the Internet 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,200 rather than in legal jurisdictions, and that we could 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,280 use software to incorporate them. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,120 And this software could define the relationships and mechanisms 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,320 by which organizations came to consensus. 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,320 If you create an organization and software, it can actually 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,520 scale to billions of people, billions of dollars, and it 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,960 might exist for 15 minutes, something that's not possible in 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,120 the traditional world. And it brings incredible amounts 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,480 of scale to creating organizations. 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,200 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,040 technologies, projects and people driving decentralisation 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,840 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Federica Ants and I'm 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,640 speaking with Dennison Bertram today, who is the CEO and Co 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,080 founder of Tally, which is a decentralised governance 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,160 platform. But before we get into all of 21 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,000 that, these are our sponsors this week. 22 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,400 If you're looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no 23 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,240 further than Course 1. 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Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 46 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,960 governance, where every voice matters. 47 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,640 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 48 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,280 Deploy on the EVM compatible Nosis chain or secure the 49 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,640 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 50 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,760 Start your decentralization journey today at nosis dot IO. 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,360 Good Dennison, it's super nice to have you on the show. 52 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:49,760 Excellent. Thank you so much for having me. 53 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,720 I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, and you have been in Web 3 54 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,480 for a very, very long time. Tell us about yourself and kind 55 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,080 of like your provenance and what brought you into this space. 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,880 Yeah, so I've been in Web 3 almost since the start. 57 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,560 I really got in involved in Ernest in 2011 when I had read 58 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,000 the Bitcoin white paper and really like clicked for me at 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,040 the time. It was just this thing that I 60 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,120 read it and it's made total sense, right? 61 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,840 Like, you know, having gone through like 2008 and sort of 62 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,720 seeing what, you know, happened in terms of like, you know, 63 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,440 Financial Policy, fiscal policy, and you know, what happened to a 64 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,440 lot of my friends in terms of just like what happened to their 65 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,360 careers and jobs and opportunities, Bitcoin really 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,720 just like stood out to me. It's like, oh, this makes sense. 67 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,600 This is a narrative for the future. 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,280 And it was pretty interesting at the time because there wasn't 69 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,560 really, I felt like anything else that was really competing 70 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,440 for ownership of the future, right? 71 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,200 And Bitcoin was the sort of like very revolutionary paper, but 72 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,000 more revolutionary than I think people give it credit for. 73 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,400 It was the, it was really a statement about using like the 74 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,080 power of like math and mathematics to upend, you know, 75 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,440 the control of the state over over money, right? 76 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,080 And it really leaned into this idea that, like, money is 77 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,320 imaginary in the 1st place. And that means that, you know, 78 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,440 anyone can create it. But to be successful at creating 79 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,280 it and not have the power of the state to sort of like, you know, 80 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,440 enforce it, you had to use something that would be 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,360 universally secure. Everyone of course, that that 82 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,360 was math. And, you know, that just struck 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,320 me the sort of elegance of it. And, you know, it was, it was 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,920 something that I just immediately got into. 85 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,440 So I, you know, started mining and got really involved in a lot 86 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,320 of the early altcoins. And that was really my start. 87 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,400 Since then, I've done a really large number of things. 88 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,160 I started one of the first Bitcoin exchange of the Czech 89 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,320 Republic a year later in 2012. That was a very scarring 90 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,120 experience, but is very educational. 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,200 For a little while I was working like a Bitcoin hardware wallet. 92 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,480 I at the time I had a other career. 93 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,800 I was actually a very, really well known fashion photographer 94 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,200 in Europe and I started a creative technology business. 95 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,520 So I had actually started doing a lot of like creative 96 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,800 technology implementations around a lot of stuff just in 97 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,480 general as like the sort of fashion industry came online, 98 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,280 but also around like the application of things like 99 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,960 Bitcoin and supply chain tracking and how we could use it 100 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,280 for Providence of like art. You know, I was an early 101 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,360 employee at Opens Upland and I first met Manu, one of the Co 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,440 founders of Opens Upland in 2013 when he was working on a project 103 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,160 called Proof of Existence. And that was like a time 104 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,720 stamping service built on Bitcoin in 2013. 105 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,480 And I had been really interested in using that to like do early 106 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,080 NF TS like using it as like the provenance for for art. 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,440 So you know, I've been in this space for a really long time 108 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,080 that that's that's at this point ancient history. 109 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,960 Sometimes people talk about, you know, now on crypto Twitter, 110 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,560 like how many cycles they've been and it stretches back all 111 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,720 the way to like 2017. And you know, it's funny because 112 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,640 even in 2017, we had already done everything in a really 113 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,560 strange way. You know, this sort of came up 114 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,240 recently for me. I was at an event and people 115 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,200 were talking about like decentralized AI. 116 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,560 And they were like really talking about like there's all 117 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,200 this unused GPU power out there of like, you know, teams that, 118 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,160 you know, like people who've got extra GPUs so we can put them as 119 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,440 decentralized network and decentralized processing. 120 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,040 I was like, wow, you know, like crypto people were working on 121 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,000 that in like 2013 you. Know like you know. 122 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,640 Did you remember Golem? Oh, yeah, yeah. 123 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,360 But even before Golem right there was made safe. 124 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,040 And what was the other one there? 125 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,080 There was another one as well that they were trying to do 126 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,560 these like decentralized, you know, processing networks. 127 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,560 And so it's funny to see, you know, to have been in the space 128 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,680 so long to sort of see everything come around again and 129 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,440 again and again. You know, we're sort of like 130 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,280 back of that phase of like a bear market where we're, we're 131 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,040 all talking about like mass adoption. 132 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,840 And it's just like, oh man, I've been like listening to the mass 133 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,240 adoption, like it's almost here and people are like, we're still 134 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,040 early. I'm like really, because I feel 135 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,080 like I'm, I've lost hair, I've gone grey, you know, like I've, 136 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,280 I've been through this like countless times and like we're 137 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,560 still out there, yet it's still early, right? 138 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,520 So, you know, the journey's been very long. 139 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,000 I think though kind of interestingly, maybe finally, 140 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,040 it's not that it's coming to an end, but like, maybe finally, 141 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,280 like crypto will move on, right? Like, you know, it's, it's it's 142 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,560 pretty amazing that block chain Bitcoin started as this really 143 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,200 like political statement like we can, we can affect political 144 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,760 change through code, through sort of like the speech, free 145 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,920 speech of like encryption. And you know, that power has has 146 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,400 won, right? Like, you know, I, I used to say 147 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,520 this thing which, you know, now sounds probably really 148 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,800 controversial, but you know, now it's sort of like a little bit 149 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,560 of anachronism. It's kind of funny. 150 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,520 But I used to say that like, you know, Bitcoin was an example of 151 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,840 being like a revolutionary without violence, right? 152 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,000 You could use technology to, to affect this political revolution 153 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,880 without violence. And it was really fascinating 154 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,760 the past 10 years watching that sort of like really culminate in 155 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,799 how the Biden administration treated, you know, us shadowy 156 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:41,000 super coders and, you know, and use and use language like, you 157 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,520 know, Elizabeth Warren, you know, she's going to create a 158 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,320 anti crypto army, right? To, to go to war against the 159 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,560 shadowy super coders just hacking away, doing open source, 160 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:55,440 giving away their like time, energy and lifeblood for free to 161 00:08:55,440 --> 00:09:00,560 the Internet. And, and, and now it's one 162 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,920 right. And and the, you know, the we 163 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,320 used to say like, you know, first they mock you, then they 164 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,280 fight you, then you win. And and, and it's, it seems like 165 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,920 now, now we win. What? 166 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,560 What? What's the metric by which you 167 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:18,960 would say we've won? Well, I think the obvious metric 168 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:24,440 is the president of the United States is all in, owns tons of 169 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,440 crypto, has promised a strategic Bitcoin reserve, which funny 170 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,840 enough, I actually suggested. I think it's probably. 171 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,640 Something that it's a bailout for crypto. 172 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,760 It's like 2008 all over again. It was very funny, I think to 173 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,160 like, you know, there's that whole, there's, you know, 174 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,600 there's all these these sort of like adages that sort of like 175 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,880 become so fun to use, but you know, you either you would die a 176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,640 hero or live long enough to be the villain, you know? 177 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:56,840 So it's like Satoshi, Satoshi or Bitcoin live long enough to be 178 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,080 the villain in some really weird way, right? 179 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,760 But I mean, if you if you kind of think about kind of the 180 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,760 reasons for which I assume you and definitely me kind of get 181 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:14,080 got into the space for what it was kind of like this idea that 182 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,120 you could build things on this new form of the Internet that 183 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,600 previously you couldn't build. So kind of like you could have 184 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,160 these shared ownership structures, you could have 185 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,040 individual agency, kind of, you would have the ultimately 186 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,200 resilient and deficient, efficient kind of substrate kind 187 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,840 of build stuff on top of you would have that formification 188 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:41,080 and, and, and with that kind of a radically better user 189 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,200 experience for, for, for your users and so on. 190 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,600 And while I do agree that kind of like, yes, the president of 191 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,440 the United States has launched more than one shit coin. 192 00:10:53,920 --> 00:11:00,440 I, I, I would very much say that this was not kind of what, what 193 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,040 got us here in the 1st place, right? 194 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,040 So kind of like in, in, in the process of kind of like winning 195 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,320 kind of that version of crypto that kind of we, we, we came 196 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,560 here for it was marginalized. Would you? 197 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,880 So, so This is why I'm kind of pushing back on the kind of like 198 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,000 we've wanted. I think kind of like, yes, 199 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,560 someone's won, but it's not, it's not kind of like who I 200 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,120 meant used to be. So I I have a little bit of a 201 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,760 take that's probably going to come across like a bummer, but 202 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,280 it's like it's it's a little bit of a multi part take. 203 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,960 One of it, and this is something I was talking about for years 204 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,160 now, is, is that crypto actually never had a plan for winning, 205 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,480 which is actually pretty common in revolutions, right? 206 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,560 Like revolutionaries, they're like driven by this desire for 207 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,520 the revolution, for this change, but they don't actually plan 208 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,720 what winning looks like, right? And and often times the best, 209 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,480 most successful strategies for revolutionaries are just somehow 210 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,680 to like implement like a perpetual revolution. 211 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,800 And crypto had very much this problem where it didn't plan for 212 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,920 success and like most revolutions, he got Co opted 213 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,200 along the way by the powers that be, right. 214 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:26,200 And I think that this has happened with crypto in many 215 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,160 ways, but the world also changed at the same time. 216 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,680 You know, one of the the things I always used to like to say, 217 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:33,960 there's a lot of things I used to like to say. 218 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,520 I don't know, I like to say these days, but one of the 219 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,360 things I used to like to say is that, you know, sort of like the 220 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,520 end of like the cypherpunk manifesto. 221 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,800 It talks about how, like, you know, Cypher phones have the 222 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,360 like, root access to the future, right? 223 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,120 And that's like part of the power of it. 224 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:52,760 You've root access to the future. 225 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,880 And my sort of response to that is like, yeah, but what if that 226 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,640 future was already a long time ago, you know, and when we. 227 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,000 Started crypto. Yes, yes, because when we 228 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:10,600 started crypto right, I remember think about it, 2011 crypto 229 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,800 start. You know, I, you know, I was 230 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:19,280 dating my my now wife and her father had a video camera on his 231 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,720 doorbell. He built it himself. 232 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,400 His video got camera on his doorbell and the sort of like 233 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,200 running joke in her friend group was how creepy that was. 234 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,120 Oh my God, he has like video camera on his doorbell and there 235 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,200 was like video cameras around the house and it was like creepy 236 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,560 because it's like, OK, every time I go over. 237 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,760 And so I'm like wave, OK, you know, dad and my girlfriend, I 238 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,680 guess you're like watching me, right? 239 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,680 And privacy was something that, you know, had already been 240 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,760 eroded substantially post September 11th, right? 241 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,400 I was, you know, I was in College in September 11th and I, 242 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,200 you know, people today don't remember a world where you flew 243 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,200 without security checks and you flew where you could go visit 244 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,200 the pilot up front, where people trusted one another in society, 245 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,240 right? Like people don't remember 246 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,240 America and American freedom and global freedom before September 247 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,640 11th. It was a big difference, right? 248 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,400 Like September 11th really chilled the nature of freedom. 249 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,920 You know, freedom went from the freedom to to the freedom from 250 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,440 which is very, very powerful and very sort of like autocratic 251 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:33,240 switch, right? But, but you know, I, I can 252 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,360 always get off track here. But, but so when we think about 253 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,960 when Bitcoin and you know, and web 3 and all that started, we 254 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,920 talked about privacy and self sovereignty, right? 255 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,360 And you Fast forward to today and everyone has a door as a 256 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,200 video camera on the doorbell, right? 257 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,400 And people have video cameras in their homes. 258 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,080 Nobody thinks it's creepy. Nobody thinks it's weird. 259 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,160 I know people with video cameras in their bedroom, right? 260 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,800 Their security camera system has video cameras in their bedroom, 261 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,200 and everything that happens to the bedroom is streamed live to 262 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Google or Amazon, right? And they're fine with it, right? 263 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,360 So a lot of the values that we had when we came into the space 264 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,080 actually are no longer values that society really hold, right? 265 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Like privacy. What is privacy today? 266 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,880 You know, before people would be like, well, I don't want the 267 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,680 government looking at naked pictures of me. 268 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,440 Today there's a million people making naked pictures of us 269 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,040 using AI every minute, right? Like nothing is real anymore. 270 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,720 We don't take anything to be real. 271 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,440 Any information you might particularly give us, we, you 272 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,320 know, before there's a sense of like you need your privacy 273 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,360 because information somehow had truth and that truth is like 274 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,080 very scary if it was like something private. 275 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,080 But today nothing is true, right? 276 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,600 Like it doesn't even matter if it actually happened and people 277 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,000 saw it with their own eyes. Like you know, nothing is true 278 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,840 anymore. So a lot of the values that we 279 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,880 started web three with society no longer actually holds, right? 280 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,400 Like young people, even even not young people, everyone streams 281 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,760 their life all the time. Everyone talks about, I mean, if 282 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,240 you go on TikTok or Instagram, people talk about the most 283 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,160 intimate experiences of their life, most humiliating, the most 284 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,960 degrading, the most uncomfortable experiences of 285 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,360 their life. And they they share it to 286 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,800 millions of followers. There's no more privacy, right? 287 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,960 And people don't care about privacy, right? 288 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,520 Like we gave it all to Zuckerberg years ago and, and 289 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,840 and we're fine. But do you think that's 290 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,840 irreversible? Because kind of like I, the kind 291 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,360 of the optimist in me hopes that kind of this is this is a, a 292 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:44,120 switch that we can kind of, you know, push back on and kind of 293 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,760 revert to this state of privacy by default. 294 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,680 So, and I think kind of like, I honestly, I don't object to kind 295 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,320 of like people streaming their intimate lives on whatever 296 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,800 service. I don't care about that. 297 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,880 But I think kind of like you should be able to kind of live a 298 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:10,480 privacy a, a pretty private life if you choose to do so. 299 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,920 So to me, it's kind of about the choice and kind of like just 300 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,000 because a lot of people don't value that doesn't mean that 301 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,359 kind of like the choice itself doesn't matter. 302 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,359 So I agree with you, the choice does matter. 303 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,280 But I kind of think two things. First, I think it's 304 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,000 generational. So and I actually think 305 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,760 everything is like generational and like cohort based 306 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,160 generationally. So I don't think that actually 307 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,440 we can like teach new generations things that they 308 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,920 don't sort of like naturally come to on their own. 309 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,120 But also I think there is this interesting trade off. 310 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,520 Like I'm not sure we're if you spent time in the Americas in 311 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:59,120 the 1990s, you were able to feel the moment in the 1990s and 312 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,400 early 2000s. You could feel the moment when 313 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,200 you were losing your privacy. And that's because we converted 314 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,360 to the society that had credit cards and cell phones. 315 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,480 And what happened was very slowly, you couldn't access 316 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,760 society without tools that innately spied on you. 317 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,080 I remember going to like Blockbuster and trying to like, 318 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,440 rent videos when I first was going to get my own Blockbuster 319 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,520 card. You had to have a credit card, 320 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,320 right? Like you couldn't participate 321 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,680 in, you know, renting a hotel room. 322 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,720 You couldn't participate in renting, you know, you know, 323 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,960 hotels existed before credit cards, but you can't book a 324 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,960 hotel today without a credit card, right? 325 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,640 So you can't, you can't use a hotel today without giving up 326 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,560 your private information, your privacy to the payment 327 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,360 processors and all the different entities that exist and that 328 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:01,680 sort of like data pipeline. So society slowly moves in a 329 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,480 direction that actually forces you to give up your privacy or 330 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,560 it sort of forces you out of society, right? 331 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,520 Where it's just like, well, you know, if you don't have a credit 332 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,120 card, you can't use Uber and you can't fly and you can't have a 333 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,240 hotel. So yes, you're, you're welcome 334 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,880 to have privacy, but you know, you're also not no longer able 335 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,360 to like participate in society in general, certainly in in many 336 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,440 parts, you know, in America and a lot of like, you know, Western 337 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,240 cities is sort of become Acto, right? 338 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,360 It'd be very difficult to like exist without it. 339 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,880 Certainly you can, but the sort of like amount of personal 340 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,280 effort that's really high. So eventually, like I remember 341 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,960 when September 11th happened and I would just opt out of those 342 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:49,160 full body scanners, right? I would just be like, this is 343 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,120 no, you're not going to like irradiate me to like, you know, 344 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,000 just you just pat me down, right? 345 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,920 Like, why are you, you know, today I just walked through the 346 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,440 scanners, right? Like, you know, it was a decade 347 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,800 of like, hands up, the big worrying machine going around 348 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,760 you. You know, it's like how much 349 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,960 effort eventually society kind of wears you down because you 350 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,040 also want to live, right? You want to raise kids, you want 351 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,840 to like go to birthday parties, you want to like, you know, rent 352 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,560 a movie, you know, you want to go on vacation somewhere. 353 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,080 So eventually it wears you down. I do hope that it's. 354 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,400 Reversible, but I think it's probably going to have to look 355 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,960 different than how we came at privacy, you know, 10 years ago 356 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,440 where maybe it looks more like your real data is, is 357 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,960 indecipherable from like the noise of your data, right. 358 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,480 Like if you think about like, you know the, the value of like 359 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,120 encryption, like you know, when you, you know, back of the day, 360 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,520 at least when you like encrypt your hard drive, you just filled 361 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,360 it up with noise and your actual data was indistinguishable from 362 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,080 noise, right. Maybe privacy of the future is 363 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,400 some version of that where your actual information is in is just 364 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,680 just it's impossible to like, you know, from the outside of 365 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,920 you distinguish it from the the the data about you. 366 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,080 That's not real, right? Maybe that's actually. 367 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:18,400 This is this is, this is strangely not very not not very 368 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000 comforting. It's like, well, you know, the 369 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:27,360 the privacy you now get is you don't know which of these 5000 370 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,200 nudes of you is the real 1 and which one's just the AI 371 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,400 generated one. This is just a yeah. 372 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,200 Yeah, yeah, I know it's, it's bizarre, right? 373 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:45,200 And maybe I am become a little bit pessimist, but it feels hard 374 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:52,920 to do it any other way now because, you know, like for me 375 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,520 and my life, like what it would take to unwind the, you know, 376 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,160 the doctor office, privacy documents that I've signed and 377 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,920 like, you know, raising kids and, you know, like the the 378 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,520 level of effort it would take would require me sort of like 379 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,600 leaving society. I think kind of like, I think 380 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,560 kind of maybe it's on us to kind of build alternatives that kind 381 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,320 of are usable for regular people, but are still privacy 382 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,160 preserving and ideally things like self custodial and so on. 383 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,120 Maybe maybe let's talk about that a little bit later, because 384 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,080 kind of like we went on a very interesting tangent, but 385 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,440 nevertheless a tangent. Maybe that's kind of talk about 386 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:41,000 kind of like the, I mean, you, you've, you were in Web 3 for a 387 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,800 pretty long time before you actually started Tally, the 388 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,360 project we're here to talk about today. 389 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:54,160 So in a nutshell, what was the set of problems that you were 390 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,000 looking to tackle in starting Tally? 391 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,720 Yeah. So Tally was the sort of genesis 392 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,120 of Tally was, you know, a lot of the optimism that we're talking 393 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,440 about. I had felt that there's a lot of 394 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,440 sort of like inequality in the sort of standard corporate 395 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,720 system and how corporations work and how, you know, borders 396 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,720 prevent, you know, sort of human capital from crossing them. 397 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:27,560 And I really thought that we could basically incorporate 398 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,040 organizations on the Internet rather than in legal 399 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,160 jurisdictions, and that we could use software to incorporate 400 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,360 them. And this software could define 401 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,720 the relationships and mechanisms by which organizations came to 402 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,040 consensus, right? You know, blockchain comes to 403 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,960 consensus through a very programmatic way. 404 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,120 Well, humans also have to come to consensus. 405 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,480 And the way we do it in the sort of traditional world is very 406 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,560 unreliable, right? You have to rely on like legal 407 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,840 system, you have to rely upon force. 408 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,360 And there was this idea, of course, for like the Dow, you 409 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,840 know, Dow was like decentralized autonomous organizations where 410 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,280 have always been like a big part of especially the sort of like 411 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,640 Ethereum lore and the the Ethereum sort of of history. 412 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,200 And the idea behind Tally was like, OK, let's say you could 413 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,160 incorporate in software. What would that look like? 414 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,720 What sort of tooling would you need? 415 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,880 Like, how would that be done? And it's pretty clear that 416 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,760 actually be extremely complicated, right? 417 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,280 Especially when you thought of like, OK, if you create an 418 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,080 organization in software, it can actually scale to billions of 419 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,080 people, billions of dollars, and it might exist for 15 minutes, 420 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,640 right? Something that's not possible in 421 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,240 the traditional world. And it brings incredible amounts 422 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,760 of scale to to creating organizations, incredible 423 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,040 amounts of scale, right? Like you can just go today and 424 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,760 create an organization on Tally and it can scale to billions of 425 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,280 people and billions of dollars and it costs nothing, you know, 426 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,960 maybe a few dollars in gas fees, right? 427 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,720 So this is sort of like real origin and root of Tally. 428 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,000 And at the time a lot of people were thinking about Dows. 429 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,240 You know, me and my Co founder, we used to like talk about them. 430 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,400 We were really interested in them. 431 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,360 But the early incarnation of like Dows, you know, with with 432 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:12,240 an exception for the DAO, was really kind of like these, these 433 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,000 cooperatives on the blockchain. They're sort of like very 434 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,520 utopian ideas of like social society structures built on the 435 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,960 blockchain. And for us, it didn't really 436 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,560 seem particularly useful. I was like, OK, that's nice, but 437 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,640 I'm not going to live in a smart contract and I don't need to 438 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,200 like, you know, use all the sort of like obtuse tools to sort of 439 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,080 like negotiate these things. But then we saw the sort of like 440 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,360 start of Defy, right, particularly compound finance 441 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,840 and they launched a Dow to operate compound finance. 442 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,320 And it became really clear what the opportunity was, which is 443 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,120 there are not only going to be Dow's, these decentralized 444 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,560 organizations, but first they're going to be protocols. 445 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:56,760 They're going to be software things, protocols that are very 446 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,480 valuable. They have a lot of money. 447 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,520 They generate money, they generate revenue. 448 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,280 They control very important smart contract parameters. 449 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,240 And they really do need some sort of mechanism, some sort of 450 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,520 tooling to intermediate political disputes and to come 451 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,280 to consensus on things like changing the parameters and, you 452 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,160 know, sending money and like updating things. 453 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,720 So from there, it was very clear that like, oh, you know, when we 454 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,640 looked at how people were doing it, they're using things like 455 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,360 Google Docs and like Excel sheets and, you know, just sort 456 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:24,120 of like hodgepodge of different things. 457 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,800 It was like, OK, really actually we need we need to start 458 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,600 building the tooling and infrastructure to manage this. 459 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,560 So that's where Tally started. It started as a Tao Dao tool. 460 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,920 Today it's really grown into the infrastructure for tokenized 461 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,400 organizations, right? So you know, in the beginning is 462 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,960 like primarily around like, oh, you create proposals and vote 463 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,120 today. Tally actually does the, you 464 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:49,400 know, entire, you know, nearly the entire flow of operating a 465 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,200 tokenized organization from identifying the political 466 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,000 stakeholders to launching the actual token, to distributing 467 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240 the token into, to people's hands, to the governance and 468 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,640 operation of protocols. The, you know, administration of 469 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,840 roles and permissions to staking and, and, and value accrual 470 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,440 mechanism so that the protocols that generate revenue have 471 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,320 trustless modular structures for returning revenue to the 472 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,080 participants. So it's really become this, this 473 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,800 a complete platform for operating these, these tokenized 474 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,560 infrastructure, these protocols at really massive scale. 475 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,800 You know, we just the other week we passed our big milestone 476 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,440 where now over a billion dollars has been been transferred 477 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,920 through our tools, which is which is an incredible milestone 478 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,480 and sort of a statement to how real that initial idea that we 479 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,560 can you know, make organizations and software really is. 480 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,160 If you look at Daos today, I mean, I think kind of Daos for 481 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,240 the past eight years or so, every year has been here kind of 482 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,120 like the the year of the DAO and so on. 483 00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:00,920 And kind of if you look at the state of Daos on chain, by and 484 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,680 large, they're pretty dysfunctional. 485 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,000 So kind of like what's what's where are we going wrong? 486 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:15,080 Sure, So you're not wrong, but I think it is useful to to compare 487 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,120 it to the alternative, right? There is a corporate entity 488 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:24,560 structure in every jurisdiction on the planet, and by and large, 489 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:30,160 the vast, vast majority of companies are dysfunctional, 490 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,360 poorly run entities that eventually fail, right? 491 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:40,440 The vast, vast majority of them, right, None of them live, you 492 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,680 know, almost none of them live for hundreds of years or even 493 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,040 decades. You know. 494 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,720 So it is useful to say to, to like put into comparison that 495 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,080 with Dows, there's a level of transparency that's currently 496 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,440 part of the sort of like ethos of a doubt. 497 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,080 Maybe the transparency doesn't actually have to be there. 498 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,440 That that's sort of like another question which might solve some 499 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,080 of these problems. But corporations don't have that 500 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,280 level of transparency. So because we don't see what's 501 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,520 happening in regular corporations, we don't see how 502 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,720 dysfunctional they are. They only when they, you know, 503 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,520 you know, Enron is a great example. 504 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,760 It's only when they like spectacularly collapse, you 505 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,240 know, or Lehman Brothers that we sort of realized like, oh, it 506 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,320 was a shit show all along, right? 507 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,000 But that isn't to justify the fact that there is a lot of 508 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,800 dysfunction in in Dows today. I think there's a, there's a 509 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,320 number of different reasons for this. 510 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,280 The structure is still new, still pretty, pretty early. 511 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,360 I think there have been. So yeah, yeah, it's still early. 512 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,440 It's still early. Yeah, Look at that. 513 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,600 Look at that. Maybe it's so early it's just an 514 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,840 excuse for not doing a good job, you know? 515 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,960 Oh, well, we don't have mass adoption yet because it's so 516 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,360 early or we're doing a bad job. Yeah, there's been a lot of 517 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,520 dysfunction and it, it has been disappointing, I'll admit it. 518 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,480 It's, it's been disappointing. I, I think that there's a lot of 519 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,160 folks now looking at ways to improve this. 520 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,120 And I cast a lot of blame actually on the previous 521 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,400 administration on on the Biden administration. 522 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:18,960 And, you know, the the Gensler SEC where a lot of the a lot of 523 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,920 the ways that dows in the past, you know, four or five years 524 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,760 have been structured, have been deliberately structured to just 525 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:33,400 play this kind of like acrobatic yoga, twisty thing around 526 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,520 regulations to make it possible. Right. 527 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,200 Like when you think about how, you know, you build something in 528 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,040 America and then you make a foundation in the Caymans. 529 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,080 And then you, I have a agency in the British Virgin Islands that 530 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,320 like contracts an anonymous dude in like Chile to like launch a 531 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,600 token that's transferred to the BVI that goes to the foundation, 532 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,400 which goes back to the company and then AirDrop. 533 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,960 It's really kind of like many of these structures were set up 534 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,000 deliberately to make it not work right? 535 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,960 You know, you see this with meme coins, right? 536 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,560 Like the industry has been hurt so much by this sort of by this 537 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,200 not it's not it's not even legislation right by these like 538 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,640 rulings that make us contour into deliberately non successful 539 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,840 structures. And the great example is the the 540 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,320 sort of like foundation set up and design. 541 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,120 You're supposed to your founder, you create this idea and now to 542 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,280 make the idea work, you have to really protocolize and have a 543 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,520 token. But to do that, you have to have 544 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,760 another entity that does the token and that entity has to be 545 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,720 totally separate from you. So you now have to give over 546 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,880 control over what you're building and what you're trying 547 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,200 to do to another entity that deliberately has to not be 548 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:59,600 connected in any way. And you instantly create an 549 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,160 opportunity for there to be divergent and goals, right? 550 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,160 And you, this has been kind of like a route of if you talk to 551 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,120 like a lot of the lawyers in the space, especially in a lot of 552 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,760 the, the, the people, you know, had to build these Dows, the 553 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,680 this sort of like regulatory acrobatics has made it very 554 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,560 difficult for these organizations to be successful, 555 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,840 right? They're set up deliberately to 556 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,680 have to fight really hard to make it work, and then a lot of 557 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,640 the energy and effort goes into kind of making it work rather 558 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,720 than working on the thing that the the the project is about in 559 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,480 the first place. 100% agreed. But don't, wouldn't you expect 560 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,640 if that is kind of like the main course of this functionality in 561 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:51,960 Dow is to kind of have a number of grassroots Dow is kind of 562 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,040 that are not incorporated anywhere that kind of just kind 563 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:01,880 of chug along kind of in there a non kind of universe and kind of 564 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,760 create value. So kind of because in principle, 565 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,080 I mean because because what you're describing very much 566 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,240 arises from the fact that there is this duality in systems, 567 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,760 right? So kind of we say kind of like, 568 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,000 OK, the organization should live on chain, but kind of like 569 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,800 obviously things also things that kind of live on chain are 570 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:28,400 constrained technically at least kind of by, by legacy legal 571 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,880 systems, right. So by, by kind of saying, OK, we 572 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,120 will bow to that ahead of time before anyone even come comes to 573 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,920 us. I, I understand and that creates 574 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,040 a lot of overhead and destruction and destruction and 575 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,760 so on. But why aren't there more 576 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,720 functional grass roots Taos without any legal set up? 577 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,000 So I think there's a couple reasons there and the first one 578 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,880 is, is that I don't think that situation that you describe 579 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,199 actually can ever exist. And the RE, I think compound is 580 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,840 a great example, right? The compound DAO is not, there's 581 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,080 no legal entity behind the compound now currently, right? 582 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:23,120 And the result of that is that you have these sort of shark 583 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:29,000 private plaintiff lawyers who buy a dollar worth of compound 584 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,480 and then it goes down to $0.90. And then they file a lawsuit and 585 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,400 they go after anyone they can find, right? 586 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,199 So if you hold tokens, if you're a delegate, if your name is on 587 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:42,159 it, they go after you, they name you in the complaint. 588 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,159 You know, this is this is what happened to Pool Together, 589 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,239 right? Pool Together was a Dow, a 590 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,360 really cool organization. And they ended up spending all 591 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,440 their money and all their time and resources fighting these 592 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,360 private plaintiff lawsuits where they were, you know, people in 593 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,280 the Dow were named personally liable for this sort of like 594 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,000 general partnership. So unfortunately you can't 595 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000 unless you have like complete anonymity, which you know, goes 596 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,080 back I think to your earlier point around privacy. 597 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:16,520 It's very difficult to actually have that state of a truly, you 598 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,040 know, decentralized org that doesn't have any of this because 599 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,200 of the regulatory setup allows these private plaintiffs, you 600 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,240 know, legal folks to actually should go after any person they 601 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,520 can find, right? And this has happened. 602 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,200 This is, you know, there's this these groups of law firms that 603 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,560 go around, they raise money and they just, you know, pick off 604 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,600 these projects 1 by 1. So I think that is majorly a big 605 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,080 blocker into making that sort of set up that you describe 606 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,840 actually work, you know, a room with maker for a long time, you 607 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,080 know, was trying to require everyone to be private, to be 608 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,080 anonymous because this risk is very real, right? 609 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,800 Like if they go after you and they say that's a general 610 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,880 partnership, they go after you for your dog and you know, your 611 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,880 children's school fund and your house, right? 612 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:08,280 So I think that again, it goes back to regulations where you 613 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,320 actually can't have that because there are these opportunistic 614 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,440 entities who will just find any individual and hold them liable. 615 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,720 I think that's kind of the root of it because if. 616 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,640 They have AUS if they have AUS angle, right. 617 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,280 So kind of like if if you're just someone on the other side 618 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,720 of the world, say kind of like you're, you're someone in, in 619 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:36,480 the Philippines, what would stop them from starting an 620 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,720 organization like this? Well, I think it wouldn't. 621 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:48,920 But what it does mean though, is many actors who might be high 622 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,520 quality participants won't participate. 623 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:58,240 Your access to things like on ramps and off ramps or trading 624 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:02,200 locales is very limited. All these things in aggregate 625 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,560 work against your success, right? 626 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,760 And if you do deal with US persons in any way, shape or 627 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,520 form, those people become exposed. 628 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,000 So, yeah, you can certainly have an organization completely 629 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,000 firewalled from the US. Maybe part of that is I don't 630 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,720 really know about them, right? I'm in the US. 631 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,560 They deal with me more with like US entities. 632 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,280 But it definitely limits your ability to have success. 633 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,680 But this isn't the only 'cause this is just like one of many 634 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,640 things that I think probably what you're getting at is, is 635 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,600 that like, people are messy and kind of like shit on the 636 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,200 Internet and they're very difficult to like, you know, 637 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,080 coordinate to do useful things together. 638 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,120 No, and this is not what I'm getting at at all. 639 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,480 So I think kind of like in, in principle, I think kind of like 640 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:57,120 humans are the same off chain and on chain to a large extent. 641 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:02,280 I think, I wonder whether to some extent it's a question of 642 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,400 culture, right? Because kind of like in in Daos, 643 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,720 kind of like we have, we have started Daos with this idea that 644 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:11,800 they're kind of like this egalitarian place and kind of 645 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,400 like you, you vote on everything and so on. 646 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,320 And I think kind of not everything should be voted on. 647 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,120 Maybe this is my controversial take for today, but kind of like 648 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,360 if you're running an organization, kind of like kind 649 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,720 of decisions are not mix and match, right? 650 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,640 Kind of like they, they kind of you have to commit to a strategy 651 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,560 and kind of you have someone has to wear the hat otherwise 652 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,160 doesn't work. And I think in principle, 653 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,400 there's no, there's this is not impossible. 654 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,640 Kind of. You could have very hierarchical 655 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:48,680 DAO, but somehow that's not in our cultural understanding of 656 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,280 Dows. So Dows don't have ACEO, and 657 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,040 maybe they should. Yeah. 658 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,520 So I think you will see most Dows have ACEO going forward for 659 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,840 the reasons you describe. I it, it disappoints me a little 660 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,720 bit, but I do think it's inevitable and it's actually 661 00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,520 probably good, especially in this period that sort of feels 662 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,960 very inter intermediary, like it's sort of like a in between 663 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:22,400 time for some reason, especially right now, I think going back to 664 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,400 like our principles, there was a time when maybe we're looking 665 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,160 towards more decentralization and actually much of the world 666 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,680 is kind of gone more centralized, right? 667 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,720 Like there's, there's a very strong authority streak right 668 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:37,240 now in the world globally. Even the idea of founder mode is 669 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,480 very much, you know, top down as, as an idea that sort of like 670 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,640 permeated the space organizationally. 671 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,160 Also, I think that these Dows have had problems and how they 672 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,280 initially distribute their membership, right? 673 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,720 Membership is a big determinant of like success, right? 674 00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:03,040 Like if you give the wrong, you can't really say wrong. 675 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,440 But an organization has to have a culture. 676 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:09,120 And if you don't have an aligned culture, it's very difficult to 677 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,080 make decisions collectively, especially when. 678 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,760 Actually, everyone in organization has different 679 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,960 cultures. I think a great example of this 680 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,320 is salaries in these organizations. 681 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,920 You know, some of these organizations are extremely 682 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,360 valuable. And you look at like Uniswap 683 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,440 Foundation, Uniswap Dow, you know, this multibillion dollar 684 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,600 organization and, you know, people really complain about the 685 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,560 foundation's proposal and how much they're going to pay 686 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,800 people. And you have these sort of like 687 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,840 participants in the space who are like, yeah, well, I got this 688 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,840 cousin. He like, you know, he's in like, 689 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,800 you know, some plays and he would do it for cheaper. 690 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,920 And it's just like, this is one of the most competitive 691 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,600 financial organizations in the world based in New York City. 692 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,280 They need to hire the most competitive, highly sought after 693 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,480 talent that exists. That's expensive, and you have a 694 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,360 natural divide between participants of what like a lot 695 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,600 of money is and what a little bit of money is and what's worth 696 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,160 something, what's not worth something. 697 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,640 I think this comes up a lot between the sort of like, 698 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,880 programming community of Europe and the programming community 699 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,120 of, like, San Francisco always on Twitter. 700 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,560 Like, you know, European programs are like, why does this 701 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,240 person earn $300,000 a year when I earn, you know, $80,000 a 702 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:24,720 year? And these sorts of like, 703 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,760 geographical issues filter into organizations, too, along with 704 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,200 cultural ones. And it makes it very difficult 705 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,440 for people to come to, like, a common alignment, right? 706 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,400 These organizations end up bickering about how much the dog 707 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,400 gets paid instead of like what they need the dog for, right? 708 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,960 And, and that really drives these organizations to like do a 709 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,400 bad job or like, you know, they sort of like descend and sort of 710 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,840 the, the, there's a, what was it? 711 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,280 Someone, someone put it really well recently where 712 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,200 decentralized organizations end up mostly talking about 713 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,520 themselves and their organization rather than getting 714 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:09,040 anything done, which it's kind of a truism now that we need to 715 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,600 think about it. But not to get too far off the 716 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,160 topic, I think you were right that we will see more CEO of 717 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,520 Dows right? Where, you know, if you read 718 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,200 Miles Jennings how you know, A16Z and he are kind of thinking 719 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,480 about what decentralization means, right? 720 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,400 Like we kind of came into this years ago with decentralization 721 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,360 being like everyone in their grandma participates in voting 722 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,760 on everything. And, you know, that has turned 723 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,920 out to be a bad idea for a lot of different reasons. 724 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,640 And now it's like, well, we have to redefine or sort of think, 725 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,240 what does decentralization mean, right? 726 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:44,480 Like who is involved in decentralization? 727 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,160 Is it everyone on everything? Is it just the experts? 728 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,560 Who determines what an expert is? 729 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,080 What's the oversight? All of these are very 730 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,840 complicated questions which, you know, corporations have sort of 731 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,800 figured out by just saying like, he's the boss and these are the 732 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,160 board members that oversee the boss, and these are the 733 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,920 shareholders that oversee the board members. 734 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,760 But I mean, that's also a structure that's grown over 735 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,520 time, right? I mean, it's not like kind of 736 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,160 like someone, I mean, we, we've, we've had corporations for 737 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,720 hundreds of years and kind of I'm, I'm sure we've tried out 738 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,600 many different things that didn't work. 739 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,160 Sure. And I mean, even now we kind of 740 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,600 have different Modi for operations, right? 741 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,640 Kind of like you, you can have, you can have a cooperative, you 742 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,520 can have a foundation, you can have a company limited by 743 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,400 shares, you can have a public company and so on. 744 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,160 And I think all of these kind of I mean to some extent kind of 745 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,680 you can, you can transition between them, but kind of they 746 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:47,760 are kind of have found product market fit in a way, right? 747 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,440 Yes, yeah. I we are I think in search of 748 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,440 our product market fit for decentralized organizations, but 749 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,400 I think we have some form of it right. 750 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,200 Like protocols have to be decentralized. 751 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,560 You know, I think a great example is Arbitrome, which is 752 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,240 on like kind of like the grandest experiment of them all 753 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,840 at the moment where they fundamentally are operated by 754 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,440 their token holders and the token holders have an extreme 755 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,640 level of power, right? Like they, they can 756 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,720 fundamentally alter the the way the network works. 757 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,720 And you see this characteristic leading to their success, right? 758 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,120 Their success being, you know, you look at like Tether having 759 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,800 chosen them as being like they're one of their new home 760 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,400 bases. You look at the different 761 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,040 organizations that build directly on top of them. 762 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:43,280 And a big piece of that is because they have this certainty 763 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,880 that they are building on top of infrastructure in which they 764 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,720 have a tangible say in how it's governed and operated. 765 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:56,080 So I do think that we've found that nugget of product market 766 00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,360 fit, right, like you wouldn't trust, you know, like a Chinese 767 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,240 company wouldn't necessarily build directly on an American 768 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:06,960 company because they're always exposed to like geopolitical 769 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,040 issues, right. But you know, a truly 770 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:15,880 decentralized network where you have a credible share, you know, 771 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,400 the the platform itself is credibly neutral and you have a 772 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,320 credible participation level on it. 773 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,640 That is very valuable, right? Like that is something that you 774 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,280 can trust that you can build on as, as infrastructure. 775 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,360 Something I like to say is like, you know, if you're building on 776 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,440 Facebook, you're the next Zynga. And I think that idea of like 777 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,040 being able to trust the infrastructure that you build on 778 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,880 is super important, right? Because we've seen that in, you 779 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,440 know, the Web 2 space. You know, whether it's Twitter 780 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,240 and the Twitter API, Reddit and the Reddit API, Facebook and 781 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,760 Facebook API. If you build something that's 782 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,440 large enough and valuable enough, the underlying layer 783 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:54,520 will steal it from you. Do do you think that's borne out 784 00:45:54,520 --> 00:46:01,400 by the state of which networks currently see developer 785 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,960 adoption? Because to me it seems that 786 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,880 there's kind of the the networks that are currently very 787 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,320 successful. They are not the most 788 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,240 decentralized, they are not the most credibly neutral. 789 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,560 They they are the ones that somehow managed to hire the 790 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:26,240 right marketing people. That's a spicy, spicy hint 791 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:32,320 there. Yeah, You know, that's a tricky 792 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:38,360 1 and it's tricky for a lot of reasons because you know, who 793 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,640 are the developers today versus the developers 10 years ago or 794 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,720 five years ago and, you know, two years ago. 795 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,880 And I think that they look very different, right? 796 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,600 Like when crypto, when I found crypto, it was very much about 797 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,240 self sovereign everything, right and, and, and privacy and all 798 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,120 this stuff. I think people who find crypto 799 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,000 today find it through very different mediums, right? 800 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,840 Like it's not coming to them through some, you know, 801 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,080 cryptography newsletter or you know, group chat. 802 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:10,680 It's coming to them through, you know, meme coin prices and 803 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,400 payments and stable coins and stuff like that. 804 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,160 So I think we're also maybe catering to a different type of 805 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:19,360 developer. If you want to use like 806 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,880 developer sort of like metrics, like there's a different kind of 807 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,080 contributor who is joining the ecosystem. 808 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,200 And I think this is, you know, I think a great example of this 809 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:34,320 was NFTS and video games or like a big, big, big selling idea 810 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,680 behind NFTS was like, wow, you know, video game. 811 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,080 If you, if you participate in a video game, you could own your 812 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,960 loot and it would be portable between games. 813 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,600 And this is actually genuinely a really awesome, amazing idea. 814 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,000 But the larger video game developer ecosystem came to NFTS 815 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,880 through like board apes and like $1,000,000 jpegs and they hated 816 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,640 the idea, right? And then we could never get them 817 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,680 off of that, right? Like they're like, oh, no, 818 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,640 Ethereum, it burns the rainforest and it's for dumb 819 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,640 jpegs. It's just like, no, no, no, no, 820 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,280 we built this thing to like make it better for everyone. 821 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,920 And they're like only heard the scam and they entirely rejected 822 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,920 it, right? So we we sort of like missed out 823 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,480 on our entire like premise because they came to it in the 824 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,280 wrong way. So I think today's developer 825 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,920 base doesn't really come to crypto through the cypher funk 826 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,720 values or the web three values, right? 827 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,440 In fact, you know, I think, you know, a lot of criticism are 828 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,920 going around is that we don't do a very good job of even like 829 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,200 expressing those, right? For a long time, you know, the 830 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,480 words World Computer just stopped being used in the 831 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,680 Ethereum space, right? It went from like world computer 832 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,880 and like all this stuff does, you know, effectively just 833 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,200 money, money, money, money, which is good for the price. 834 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,480 And, you know, I wouldn't mind some aspect of that coming back, 835 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,720 but that changes who comes in and builds. 836 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,640 And the centralization component, it's efficient, 837 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,760 right? The centralization is efficient 838 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,440 in these organizations. It means that, you know, someone 839 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,240 is tasked with the responsibility of making each 840 00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:13,840 one of these developers who come in the door feel good and feel 841 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,640 recognized and feel unique and feel special. 842 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,080 And that drives participation, right? 843 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,040 You want to be somewhere where people are excited. 844 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,360 You know, I've, I, I go to both Ethereum conferences and I go to 845 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,440 both and Solana conferences. And you know, one of the things 846 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,080 that struck me about the last few Solana conferences I went to 847 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,840 is that everyone's really excited about making money, but 848 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,880 really excited, right? They're like, wow, we are all 849 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,280 here, we're going to make money. What are you building? 850 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,600 I'm building money, money, money. 851 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,600 Oh, I'm building money. Plus, I'm building money, money, 852 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,240 money. And plus I'm building money with 853 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,600 J bags. And everyone's like really 854 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,040 psyched. And that sort of real clarity of 855 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,080 purpose. I think was is, is extremely 856 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,920 powerful for, for that community, right. 857 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,640 But you definitely don't have people saying like, oh, actually 858 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,640 we need to start decentralized, right? 859 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,160 Like you don't have that. You have a very different ethos 860 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,240 and that's totally fine, right? Like this is not in any way dig. 861 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,360 This is totally fine. Like there are so many more 862 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,320 ecosystems in crypto today than there were in 2011, right? 863 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:18,680 In 2011, there was just one, right? 864 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,000 There's actually a couple really soon after that. 865 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,800 But but today there's just there's just thousands of the 866 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:28,840 communities. So, you know, some days it's 867 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,760 like you wish it were a bit more decentralized, but some days you 868 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,120 recognize that there's going to have to be some like path in the 869 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,960 middle to make sure you get to that product market fit, to make 870 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,320 sure you build something that works. 871 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,000 That people need to make sure that like, you're focused on the 872 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,680 task at hand rather than sort of like this real owneristic, just 873 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,880 like it's about how we organize all the time, you know? 874 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,280 Yeah, I, I think kind of I'd make the point that kind of like 875 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,760 decentralization in itself is not a value. 876 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,960 It's not kind of it's not something that people should pay 877 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,560 to have. It depends on the use case, 878 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:07,920 right. So kind of like there's many 879 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,320 things for which it's totally fine kind of build on a 880 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,800 proprietary network somewhere just like kind of like I, I have 881 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,480 stuff running on AWS. But yeah, there's other things 882 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,560 like, I don't know, for instance, if I, if I had my 883 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:29,320 identity on chain, I would be very worried about having it on 884 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:34,720 a poorly decentralized chain. So we've we've talked about kind 885 00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:38,800 of like the general Dow space for pretty long time. 886 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,080 Tell us about kind of the things that are currently on your plate 887 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:44,760 at Tally. So kind of what are you guys 888 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,240 working on? What are you excited about? 889 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,920 What do you think is going to meet move the needle on on how 890 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,640 Daos operate in the future? Yeah. 891 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:03,280 So at Tally, we are really excited about this new political 892 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,000 landscape. We can now build organizations 893 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,040 or it looks like we can now build organizations that are 894 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:16,040 more functional, that have more focus on success early on, that 895 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,280 allow founders to have higher agency, that allow teams to 896 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,840 build more transparently with a lot of like the sort of like 897 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,480 shackles and limitations taken off. 898 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,720 So we, I actually think that we are probably closer to the 899 00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:35,520 original vision of like being able to, you know, incorporate 900 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,600 organizations and software than we've ever been, which is 901 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,320 incredibly, you know, exciting. Obviously the whole global 902 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,320 economy is going through a little bit of a weird rough 903 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,760 patch right now. And you know, I guess we kind of 904 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,320 all have to see how that shakes out. 905 00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:53,320 But at its core, the idea now that you can just build an 906 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,040 organization, you can or incorporate it on chain. 907 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,360 You can have high agency decision making, but you can 908 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,000 have a large community. And by community, it could be 909 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,320 just people who have an opinion or it could be actually like 910 00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:09,680 people who have power, right? And who have operative power is 911 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,600 really exciting for us. There's actually some pieces 912 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,480 here that are still missing. You know, very early on we 913 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,040 recognize the need to have tokens that actually accrue 914 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,200 value, right? The problem with governance 915 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,920 tokens, and this is another big thing thing historically, the 916 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,880 problems with governance tokens has been that we've had to 917 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,080 specifically say they don't have any value. 918 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,680 And that negatively selects for the participants of your 919 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,800 ecosystem, right? Because most savvy participants 920 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,760 aren't interested in like the, the opportunity cost of like 921 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,000 holding something that cost money but should be valueless, 922 00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:46,760 right? Like that's, that's a horrible 923 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,880 relationship. And that's actually been a big 924 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,760 contributor to, you know, the, the success or failure failure 925 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,320 of different organizations. So now we're building a lot of 926 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,720 great modular tooling around value accrual for for tokens. 927 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,080 You know, we've been working closely with teams around the 928 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:06,520 idea of staking, using staking as this core primitive to drive 929 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,560 the sort of like productive behavior necessary to operate 930 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,000 protocols, which we think is really critical for their long 931 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,840 term success. We also I've been working really 932 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,880 closely with teams to help launch their protocols, right, 933 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,160 help launch their tokens. So really today it's about 934 00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,880 serving these teams in their whole journey and like getting 935 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,920 them out there. Because if you look at kind of 936 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,600 like the history of like where the stock market has been in 937 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,640 terms of like, you know, IP OS as sort of stats here, right in 938 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,960 2024, there was around 220 like IP OS, you know, in 2022, 939 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,240 there's like 175. When you look at how many 940 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:48,160 organizations are actually launching on software today, 941 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,080 it's really pretty incredible. And when you look at how many of 942 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,000 them are doing it on top of tally, right? 943 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,600 Like just the number that like we've passed a billion dollars 944 00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,520 in payments, like money moves on the platform really shows that 945 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:05,680 like we have this really exciting opportunity to really 946 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:11,320 compete with the wider ecosystem of like how do companies sort of 947 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,120 like chart their path forward, right? 948 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,040 You know, maybe we're going to even get to the point where 949 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,000 companies are going to realistically, you know, look at 950 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,040 tally and say, hey, we would like to go token instead of even 951 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,200 going IPO, right? Like this is kind of like this 952 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,120 idea that really, really has gotten us very excited where we 953 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,240 could actually be an alternate way for this new kind of 954 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:38,080 organization to really go public in a sense, but in a very 955 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,880 different way, you know, and, and obviously within, you know, 956 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,040 a now a clear regulatory framework. 957 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:49,000 Yeah, that's very, I mean this kind of very much Rings of 2017 958 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,560 and I think kind of like this the the kind of ICO era in some 959 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:59,040 way, kind of it's been maligned needlessly over the past couple 960 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:00,720 of years. I mean, yes, there were pretty 961 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:04,720 bad IC OS out there, but there were also a bunch of really good 962 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:08,840 IC OS out there. And yeah, so I think kind of 963 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:19,520 like having having this way of doing a crowd sale without and 964 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,680 kind of having an investor base that's not necessarily kind of 965 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:29,520 accredited investors only. And that's not that that doesn't 966 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,600 kind of require you kind of have prospectors and, and, and 967 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,760 whatever. I think, yeah, I think that is 968 00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,240 tremendously worthwhile. And it very much goes back to 969 00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,520 kind of like this vision of shared ownership, right, Kind of 970 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,280 that we talked about in in the beginning as kind of like one of 971 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,720 the core tenets of Web 3. Yeah, I agree with you. 972 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:55,600 You know, people love to speak negatively about the ICO boom, 973 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,840 but a lot of very good stuff came out of that. 974 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,960 A lot of infrastructure got built. 975 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:05,360 You know SAFE was an I ICO project originally, you know. 976 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,280 There's a lot of great. Yeah, yes, exactly. 977 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,160 Full disclosure is yours. You, you know, like there's a 978 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,920 lot of actual great infrastructure that was built 979 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,480 during this and there's a lot of magic around the capital 980 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,720 formation primarily using an asset that was created from its 981 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,440 own ICO, right? Ethereum itself was an ICO which 982 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,000 I did not participate in because of, you know, sorry, but poor 983 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,600 choices, poor life choices. So, so yeah, in in many ways 984 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,840 like, you know, going back to the sort of like certainly our 985 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,240 original vision and I think a lot of people's original vision, 986 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:50,440 we can do incorporation vastly cheaper, faster, more efficient, 987 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,720 greater scale by using software as our jurisdiction then we can 988 00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,920 using, you know, you know, Delaware and the state 989 00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,080 registrar's office. So what we, what we would like, 990 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,800 of course we don't want a world coming back where, you know, I 991 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,120 think, you know, people love to knock like Dentacoin, you know, 992 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,240 the, the ICO like for, for dentists, like that's like the, 993 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,680 the, the running sort of like punching bag. 994 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,600 Although I will note that they might even still be around. 995 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:22,200 But yeah, most businesses aren't a success anyway. 996 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,320 So, you know, it's hard to hold that again. 997 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,440 And we've seen the same with IPOs, right? 998 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,960 I mean kind of like, yes, we have Google, we have Google, but 999 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,600 we also have, we also had pets.com, right? 1000 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,320 And kind of like that, that went exactly the way that Dentacoin 1001 00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:36,360 went. So it's. 1002 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:41,560 Exactly, exactly. And you know, I hope that 1003 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,640 actually we get really clear regulation around this because 1004 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,080 the efficiencies and opportunities here for builders 1005 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,520 and you know, I would be remiss if I didn't mention for the Made 1006 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,760 in America builders is incredible, right? 1007 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,640 Like that's sort of like efficiency that opportunity is. 1008 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,040 You can't really ignore that, especially today when, you know, 1009 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,200 we we are finally even contending with the idea that 1010 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,840 maybe even like AI and machines are going to start companies and 1011 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,600 build software and stuff like that. 1012 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,880 So, yeah, I would very much like to see. 1013 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,960 We are very much positioning ourselves for World War. 1014 00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:22,840 Regulatory clarity allows us to build many more exciting things 1015 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,840 where founders can, you know, maintain control over their 1016 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,280 vision for a lot longer so that they can get to, you know, PMF, 1017 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,960 you know, I, I, I think this is just, you know, extremely 1018 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:37,440 exciting. You know, we just have to get 1019 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,440 through this little rough patch that we're in right now. 1020 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,920 But, you know, ideally, you know, the, the president has 1021 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,280 promised legislation in the, in the summer. 1022 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,600 So I think by fall we may actually know what the future is 1023 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,680 going to look like. Yeah, absolutely. 1024 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,480 So, Dennison, where can we send people to kind of find out more 1025 00:59:55,960 --> 01:00:01,400 about Tally? So the most obvious place is 1026 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,960 tally or the website itself, Tally dot XYZ. 1027 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,800 You know, we also have a newsletter, a podcast, a Twitter 1028 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,920 as well. These are probably the best 1029 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,560 places to check, check out. You can also follow me as well 1030 01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,560 on on Twitter at Dennison Bertram. 1031 01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,320 If you are building a project. If you're thinking about 1032 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,000 building a project. If you're thinking about 1033 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,680 building a token or launching a token. 1034 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,520 We are probably your best partners for that in the 1035 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,080 industry. If you're thinking about value 1036 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,480 accrual mechanisms, thinking about modular secure governance 1037 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,360 that, you know, secures 10s of billions of dollars across the 1038 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,760 ecosystem, we are your, you know, your best partner that you 1039 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,320 could have. So if you are in a founder of 1040 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,760 any of this sort of sort or builder, you know, even the 1041 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,680 legal right, we have great, great recommendations and 1042 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,720 experience helping team set up even the legal sides of things. 1043 01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,200 We're not lawyers, but you know, we can give you a lot of great 1044 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,520 recommendations to wonderful, wonderful teams as well, You 1045 01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,480 know, reach outreach out. We can be your partner in this 1046 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,640 in this process and help, you know, help you succeed the way 1047 01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,600 we've, you know, helped hundreds of other organizations succeed. 1048 01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,440 Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on 1049 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,160 Dennison. Thank you, it's a real, real 1050 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:18,240 pleasure. I loved having this 1051 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:18,920 conversation.