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This is Epicenter episode 530 
with guests Andrea Salvados and 

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Vijay Krishna Vanchi. 
Welcome to Epicenter, the show 

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which talks about the 
technologies, projects and 

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people driving decentralization 
in the blockchain revolution. 

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I'm Frederica Ants and today I'm
speaking with Andreas and Vijay,

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the two Co founders of Fiverse. 
Fiverse is a super interesting 

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project that leverages in 
existing infrastructure that 

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kind of lets you use it as an on
chain Google Docs sort of like 

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product. 
But we'll hear all about this in

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00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,000
in just a second. 
Before we talk with Andreas and 

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Vijay, we'd like to tell you 
about our sponsors this week. 

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This episode is brought to you 
by Gnosis. 

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.1. 
Andreas and Vijay, I'm so happy 

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to have you on EPICENTER this 
week. 

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Same excited to hear. 
Hey Frederique, thank you for 

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having us. 
Very happy to be to be here. 

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Super cool. 
Tell me about yourselves. 

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So who are you? 
What's your background? 

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What makes you get up in the 
morning? 

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And maybe I'll start with 
Andreas. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Thanks. 
Just one quick thing. 

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Also, we're honoured to be here 
after the celebration of the 10 

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years of epicentre. 
We watched the live stream 

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yesterday. 
It was very cool. 

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I can't believe it's been 10 
years already. 

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I think I'm. 
I've been a listener since half 

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the time, Yeah. 
Really crazy. 

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Also, I was going back in the 
initial episodes and I saw that 

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even in 2014 you had you had an 
episode on Meme Coins with a 

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Canyon fish coin, which is 
hilarious. 

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You see that CT hasn't evolved 
that much. 

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So sorry, back to the question. 
So yes, I'm Andreas, I'm one of 

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the Co founders of of Favors. 
I am. 

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I'm also a PhD student. 
I'm finishing my PhD at the 

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moment at the University of 
Oxford. 

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My focus there is specifically 
on human control of AI systems 

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in hacking operation. 
So what we call computer network

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exploitation and attack. 
It's something that I'm quite 

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passionate about and yet I see 
it as, you know secondary to a 

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lot of the work that we do at 
Favour's and in some sense quite

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complimentary as well. 
So we always have great 

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conversations about that within 
the company. 

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Why do I wake up in the morning?
So I think what drives me, is 

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first of all as a proper Greek 
kid to to buy a house for my 

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mother is the first answer. 
And the the second answer is 

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that. 
And I think this is something 

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quite common in the in the team,
we are aggressively, maybe 

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naively optimistic about the 
impact that we can have on the 

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world. 
I hope it doesn't sound too EA 

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like, but we we really want to 
have direct impact on things 

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that we consider very 
problematic for the way people 

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communicate, collaborate and 
live together. 

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So most of our work is dedicated
to that. 

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Could I come back to that in a 
second? 

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Kind of why you think these 
these areas are problematic? 

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But maybe for first, Vijay, what
about you? 

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Who are you? 
Yeah, I am like mainly you can 

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say that out of Andres and 
Constantine, I fill in the tech 

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gap. 
And if you think about it from 

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the perspective of what do I 
associate with and what what is 

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it that excites me most. 
It's how can we use different 

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kind of technologies that exists
like out there and how can we 

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make it fit into the users. 
Like you know, how can we make a

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connection between the users and
the tech like and how can we 

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bridge the gap between those two
things. 

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So that's the like general thing
which excites me for either 

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experimenting with different 
things, for building different 

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things and I like like in 
general to creates small 

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softwares or small things that 
increase either the interactions

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or the efficiency in general for
people that are doing things on 

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top of them. 
So yeah, I know it's sort of a 

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techie pitch. 
So you're the tech Co founder, 

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Vijay. 
Yeah, But I also heard that 

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there's there's not just 
Andreas, but there's also 

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Constantine. 
So there's three Co founders. 

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Tell me about Constantine. 
Yeah I'll I'll say the first 

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part you can you can complete in
a VJI think you can only hear 

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good stuff from us about 
Constantine. 

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So he's the eldest one in the in
the Co founder group. 

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He won't like that he's someone 
that's been in crypto since 

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around 2016. 
I think his his main specialty 

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until five of us was really 
doing product marketing and 

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getting a lot of non crypto 
people to get interested in 

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crypto. 
He ran the most, the most 

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popular by by measure of 
audience crypto campaign in the 

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world. 
So with The Economic Times of 

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India over 150 million readers 
and and he's someone that right 

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now at Favour's makes sure, 
makes sure that things happen. 

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You have Vijay and us and and me
who are, you know going all over

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the place generating ideas every
time that we talk. 

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And Constantine takes all that 
canalizes it focuses it around 

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clear objectives and makes sure 
that you know both Vijay and I 

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know that you know we're we're, 
we're developing something 

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bigger than just a side project 
that excite us. 

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We're developing something that 
has users, that has people 

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depending on it. 
And yeah, he he's really the the

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person that manages to organise 
the whole team, which is also 

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why he's the the CEO at of ours.
Yeah, every company kind of 

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needs that sort of person. 
Otherwise things don't get done.

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How did How did you 3 meet? 
Yeah. 

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So me and Constantine, like we 
worked at a crypto company for 

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like I think for four or five 
years and that's how that's 

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where we met. 
And we understood that, OK, we 

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are excited about common things.
And one of the thing like which 

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and there's was saying about the
the crypto campaign which 

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Constantine had done, like it 
was me and him, like we were 

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organizing that that thing and 
that's how me and Constantine 

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met. 
And like after that Constantine 

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introduced me to Andres and it 
has been like crazy story. 

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Maybe Andres can add on the like
the moment when we shared the 

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POC of Fireworks first as an 
anecdote. 

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Yeah, yeah it's it's very funny.
I'll, I'll reveal something on 

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the podcast. 
But I met my I met Constantine 

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through my mother because he's 
my brother. 

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He's he's my older brother and 
we were back in Christmas at 

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home in Greece and he tells me, 
hey dude, look at this and he 

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opens up an e-mail and it's an 
e-mail from VJVJ sends really 

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like pretty, pretty 
straightforward. 

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The POC on helping people just 
use APFS and things exploded. 

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Things exploded because we 
immediately thought of what we 

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could add with how we could 
develop it, how we could make it

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in a proper product and then 
into a protocol. 

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And yeah, the rest is history. 
Super nice. 

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Yeah. 
One could say you and 

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Constantine go way back. 
Which Christmas was this, by the

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way? 
Because it's Christmas again, 

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right? 
So how long? 

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How many Christmases have you 
worked on? 

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Five, Five hours now. 
So now it's going to be the 

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second. 
So we started in officially, we 

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started the work around April 
2022, 2022, yeah, but the the 

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first POC by VJ came during 
Christmas 2021 towards 2022. 

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So yeah, we're we're closing our
year and a half, reaching 2 

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years now. 
Cool. 

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And yes, you said earlier that 
despite the fact that you kind 

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of work in AI, kind of your 
largest concerns are not around 

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AI, they are around kind of how 
we collaborate or this this is 

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kind of like what it sounded 
like. 

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What's the thing that you're 
taking issue with? 

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OK. 
So there is definitely a strong 

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relation with the issues that 
I'm talking about and AI and how

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we solve it at Fowler. 
So I'll just give you a a 

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general picture and then we can 
maybe dive in deeper into what I

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mean. 
But it's something that both VJ,

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Constantine and I noticed at the
very beginning, before we even 

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started thinking actively about 
building something, which is 

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that there is a strong point of 
centralization. 

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The remaining point of 
centralization, if you want to 

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say it like that, in crypto, 
which is how people collaborate 

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and communicate with each other,
we're a whole industry that is 

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ensuring that people can have 
computational and data integrity

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in their financial transactions.
We've built amazing what I like 

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to call community computers, 
those block chains, and yet 

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we're not leveraging them for 
something that is non financial,

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but essential to the way that 
crypto evolves, which is 

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dissemination of public 
knowledge, communication, et 

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cetera. 
So this is for the crypto 

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specific, but it's shocking that
this is a case in crypto, 

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because we have those values in 
the crypto community. 

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But the problem is much more 
general. 

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The problem is global. 
Anyone who uses the Internet 

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abides by a server client model.
This is something that people 

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see as you know, the status quo 
today on the Internet. 

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But the Internet did not use to 
look like this even 50 years 

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ago. 
I like to use that example that 

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until 2010 a third of all 
Internet traffic was 

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peer-to-peer was purely 
BitTorrent links being shared 

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between individuals. 
And this is quite important 

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because we took a radical turn 
into something that is much more

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centralized. 
And now the whole world depends 

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on three big companies for the 
storage of their data, the 

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recovery of their information. 
They're dependent on, you know, 

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an arbitrary decision made by 
some Google engineer in 

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California that had a bad day 
and thus decided to delete 

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customer's data. 
We're dependent on server going 

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down every now and then at at 
AWS and my Roomba cleaner are 

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not working anymore because of 
it. 

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So there are points of 
centralisations around servers, 

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usually based in the US, which 
come with a series of endemic 

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issues including lack of 
privacy, predatory models of 

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mining your personal data, 
selling it to 100 different data

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brokers you have no idea even 
exist, manipulation of your 

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attention, of your mood, all 
those things. 

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So we want to take that away and
redistribute it to to people. 

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Do do you know which proportion 
of Internet traffic is 

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peer-to-peer today? 
It's a very good question, I 

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think it's so last time I 
checked. 

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I need to remember the source as
well, and it's my academic side.

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I don't want to throw things 
without proper backing. 

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I don't remember exactly. 
I think I read something like 

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less than 8%. 
Yeah, something like that. 

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I can. 
I can specify it next time or 

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online. 
OK. 

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And the three Internet 
companies, just for the record, 

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they are AWS, Google, and I 
assume Microsoft was the third 

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one. 
Yes, yes. 

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Those were the companies I was 
thinking about. 

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00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:57,720
But you know, you have some 
auxiliary actors that are maybe 

230
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not at the same scale but are 
quickly closing in and capturing

231
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,360
a lot of consumers into their 
predatory model. 

232
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,160
Yeah. 
Why do you think this 

233
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,840
consolidation of the market has 
happened? 

234
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:19,160
So this is a great question. 
I'll be I'll be honest, even if 

235
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,440
it if it sounds like it's 
something that would limit 

236
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,960
people from even looking at 
Fowers, which is UX for me. 

237
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,520
This is where it starts and 
ends. 

238
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,400
This is something that's the 
main focus of our team at 

239
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,480
Fowers. 
We want to improve the UX of 

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00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,920
people collaborating, 
coordinating online. 

241
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,600
I think the reason why those 
companies reach that level of 

242
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:53,560
quasi monopoly is because they 
offered users the ability to 

243
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,000
abstract away a lot of the 
complexities that were involved 

244
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,680
in, let's say, e-mail protocols.
Google comes in, tells everyone,

245
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:09,040
hey, PGP is cool, Your e-mail 
protocol using Thunderbird is is

246
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,240
cool, but you need to specify a 
million different things. 

247
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,560
You need to be aware of spam. 
You need to be aware of all 

248
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,839
those things. 
How about we take it all away 

249
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,040
for you? 
We also give you a way to 

250
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,520
recover your information that is
not just dependent on you losing

251
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,320
your password or not. 
We automatically take care of 

252
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,840
the server and give you 
guarantees even if you don't pay

253
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,960
our server. 
So amazing UXA, they just made 

254
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,440
something that was revolutionary
into something that is 

255
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,680
revolutionary and easy to adopt.
And we like to use that analogy 

256
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,840
at fibers because we're taking 
something that is already 

257
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,160
revolutionary. 
Block chains, smart contracts, 

258
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,560
But we're trying to make them 
into something revolutionary for

259
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,680
everyone else in the world, my 
grandparents included. 

260
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,000
Oh yeah. 
Yeah. 

261
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,760
So I'm totally with you. 
That user experience is, is 

262
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,680
currently not what it should be 
for web three products and we'll

263
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,280
get into that in just a bit, but
kind of spell it out for us a 

264
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,680
bit more. 
So kind of Google offers this 

265
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,400
amazing user experience. 
So kind of like a fully wide 

266
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,360
glove service for kind of like 
reading, answering, storing your

267
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:31,400
emails. 
How, how do they make a living 

268
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,680
off of this? 
And clearly they they are making

269
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,720
a very decent living. 
A killing. 

270
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,760
Yeah, they're making a killing, 
that's for sure. 

271
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,720
So there are a few. 
There are a few things about 

272
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,600
their business model I'll focus 
on. 

273
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:51,160
The one that allowed them to 
have such an amazing UX and the 

274
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,400
thing that allowed them also 
that created the past dependency

275
00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:01,320
for them around something that 
we consider predatory today. 

276
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:08,720
So they made everything free at 
the beginning in order to ensure

277
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,320
that they could get, they could 
establish the foundations for a 

278
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,480
new kind of business model at 
the time, you know beginning 

279
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,200
2000 around data. 
What Google realized because 

280
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,200
they were building a search 
engine at the beginning is that 

281
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,560
there is a lot of public and 
private data that is being that,

282
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,240
that is being sent around the 
the Internet and the private 

283
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,480
data doesn't have much value 
associated to it at the moment. 

284
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,920
So what they decided to do is 
we're going to take people's 

285
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,000
private data, semi private data.
We're going to tell them that 

286
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,920
they can store as much as they 
want of it on our servers for 

287
00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:00,680
free, but in a very long and 
legally full terms and 

288
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,640
condition. 
We'll make sure that we can use 

289
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,680
that data for our own purpose 
and specifically in order to 

290
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,800
make some money. 
So Google created this big 

291
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,960
market of data brokers that buy 
people's personal data. 

292
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,400
And that personal data doesn't 
have to be necessarily. 

293
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,520
The content itself of whatever 
you sent via an e-mail or stored

294
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,000
on Google Drive. 
It is also the metadata which 

295
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,160
arguably is so much more 
important. 

296
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:37,560
I remember that quote by by the 
by NSA operator that helped 

297
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,000
catch bin Laden, which is that 
95% of all the work that they 

298
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:48,160
needed was open source and on 
Google and it just required them

299
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,360
to piece things together. 
So most of that data that he was

300
00:20:52,360 --> 00:21:00,360
talking about was location, 
address book was time of things 

301
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,880
being sent. 
So all that is metadata. 

302
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,280
They're taking the data, they're
selling it to a market that they

303
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,280
created of data brokers that 
need that data in order to sell 

304
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,080
a product, in order to do better
identification of categories of 

305
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,720
users in order to sell that data
then to other companies. 

306
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:27,160
Again, it sounds OK, maybe in 
principle doesn't to me, but 

307
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,200
this creates a lot of endemic 
issues. 

308
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,120
I think in the US it's still so 
prominent. 

309
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,840
In the EU, you know, we have the
GDPR. 

310
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,280
It's reduced a bit the amount of
predatory things that come from 

311
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,600
that model. 
But in the US, you can buy 

312
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,680
millions of people's cell phone 
data, you can track them around 

313
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,040
the country, you can corroborate
their interactions with other 

314
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,640
data points and infer a million 
things from that. 

315
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,920
And it's as easy as spending 
$150 on some website. 

316
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,120
It's not OK. 
Yeah. 

317
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,680
Sorry. 
You see, we get passionate, so 

318
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,360
we we're going to use some big 
words, maybe like predatory. 

319
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,160
Now I I clearly see why you 
think this is, this is super 

320
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,280
important. 
I think there's a couple of 

321
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,160
things that kind of I would kind
of like to keep track of here. 

322
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,600
So kind of one thing is kind of 
how could this be tackled 

323
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,000
without blockchain and then kind
of why did you decide to kind of

324
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040
go the blockchain route, right? 
Because basically, even without 

325
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,760
using blockchains, you could, 
you could offer a service that 

326
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:43,880
kind of is not exploitative in 
that sense and kind of doesn't 

327
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,960
sell your data that way. 
So I'm thinking of services 

328
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:54,320
like, say ProtonMail or similar.
Why do you think they, they 

329
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,520
don't have more traction than 
they than they actually do. 

330
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:04,200
Do people not care? 
So I'll start, but I I see Vijay

331
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,800
twitching a bit. 
So I know that he has a, he has 

332
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,800
a big speech prepared for this. 
But I'll start by maybe 

333
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,600
rejecting your premise, kind of 
rejecting your premise 

334
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,760
specifically. 
I think that more and more 

335
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,560
people care. 
You look at the Signal app user 

336
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,640
base, it's been exploding for 
the past two years. 

337
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:30,280
WhatsApp, which is that mega app
that everybody uses for 

338
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,440
communication, it started end to
end encrypted. 

339
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,880
It started with all the right 
values until it was bought by 

340
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,680
Facebook and now you know, still
end to end encrypted. 

341
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,520
But there are a few things that 
ring people's, yeah, paranoia. 

342
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,560
Same for ProtonMail, amazing 
team. 

343
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,840
They do a lot of the right 
things I think and their user 

344
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,200
base has been growing quite 
significantly for the past two 

345
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,920
years. 
So there is really a movement 

346
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,520
which we want to capture and 
that's our, you know, our first 

347
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,560
audience after the crypto 
people. 

348
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,480
It's the privacy conscious 
individuals and that category is

349
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,440
growing massively. 
So I think it's it's growing and

350
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,440
people are care more and more 
especially you know everything, 

351
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,800
Everything is to our advantage 
because you continue with the 

352
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,880
the model we currently have 
leaks are going to continue to 

353
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,520
happen. 
It's just about how big of a 

354
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,320
leak or fuck up will happen for 
more people to take that radical

355
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,040
step off. 
OK. 

356
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,640
I abandoned Facebook. 
So on that side. 

357
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,280
And then on the tech side, I 
think most of those companies 

358
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:55,000
are so ProtonMail for example, 
are doing what I consider 95% of

359
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,600
the correct choices, but they're
still server dependent. 

360
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,840
I think their servers are in 
Switzerland. 

361
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:11,080
I remember a year ago they 
received a warrant forcing them 

362
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,960
to open up one of their server. 
Of course everything was end to 

363
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,560
end encrypted, but it freaked 
out a lot of people, a lot of 

364
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,880
their users. 
I remember receiving the e-mail 

365
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,960
and this is something we want to
remove. 

366
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,920
We want to remove the server, we
want to remove the need for a 

367
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,960
server for authentication and 
authorization. 

368
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:37,040
And this is where I stop, and I 
let Vijay give you the better 

369
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,680
explanation. 
Yeah, so like one thing which 

370
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,360
I've seen like blockchain do 
very well is basically like 

371
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,920
there is one property in 
blockchain like that excited me 

372
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,240
and the reason why I like find 
it very interesting that it can 

373
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,640
be used in different places. 
One of those is like, it makes 

374
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,120
it very easy for people like, 
for example, like you and me to 

375
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,560
agree on things. 
Now what does that agree on 

376
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,720
things mean in this case? 
Like let's say if you do a 

377
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,240
transaction on either Nosys or 
Ethereum or any of these chains,

378
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,360
and you send a transaction hash,
that's a cryptographic proof of 

379
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,200
something that you did 
computationally right? 

380
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,680
And that computation in this 
case signifies that you did a 

381
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,160
value transfer from 1 address to
another. 

382
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,360
For now, with all the different 
things that we see, we can go 

383
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,360
and verify it on ether scan, we 
can go and verify it on public 

384
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:39,440
infrastructure or we can even 
run our own nodes to verify that

385
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,640
that thing actually happened or 
not right until all this happens

386
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,400
for finance. 
Now how does that happen for 

387
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,000
finances for example, we go 
ahead and update token balances 

388
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,080
and all of these things. 
That's how you have entire D5 

389
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,040
and everything else happening on
top of it. 

390
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,200
But what we are doing is we're 
doing similar thing but for 

391
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,680
data. 
Now imagine this like 

392
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,280
cryptographic proof you were 
able to give for your own data 

393
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,560
like first create for your own 
self and then second also share 

394
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,200
it with other people saying that
OK now you can also go and check

395
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,040
the access or check the document
without me intervening in that 

396
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,080
process, right. 
So there are different other 

397
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,360
patterns that open up. 
Those patterns are for example, 

398
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,040
you send tokens to someone. 
Now you can never revoke access 

399
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,840
to that document. 
This is one of the like key 

400
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,360
benefits that you get. 
The other way is like you can 

401
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,240
have for example temporary 
permissions or time lock 

402
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,280
permission that is visible on 
chain and everyone knows it's 

403
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,320
not just one server or one 
person controlling all of those 

404
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,400
things for everyone and so on 
and so forth. 

405
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,280
So it's it's that base 
assumption and the things that 

406
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,680
you can build on top of it is 
what we are enabling with the 

407
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,480
use of blockchain. 
And one like interesting thing 

408
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:12,560
which I'll say that would like I
think highlight how interesting 

409
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,240
the work is and why it's like 
very caution for the next step 

410
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,800
that we are taking by moving 
away from this kind of 

411
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,800
infrastructure is if you go to 
ProtonMail and you lose your 

412
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,400
keys, you won't be able to gain 
access back to it, back off it, 

413
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,000
right. 
But if you take a look at the 

414
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,040
blockchain, it's a core premise 
that you should not be able to 

415
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,800
lose your case. 
So to give you an example of the

416
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,080
same word that SAFE did with 
Recovery Hub, to give you an 

417
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,600
example of one of the EF work 
that me and Andreas were working

418
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,000
on for like allowing people to 
recover access to a smart 

419
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,680
contract in a low like for a low
risk in a low risk method. 

420
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,280
So it's all of these things that
actually come together that 

421
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,680
won't be possible if we didn't 
use blockchain to like leverage 

422
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,400
as a like as an advantage in my 
opinion. 

423
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,760
This is super interesting. 
I think this is the first time 

424
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,440
I've heard someone say that kind
of the advantage of blockchain 

425
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,640
is that you can't lose your 
keys. 

426
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,200
I I I get back to that in in in 
just a second. 

427
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,320
So there's very obvious kind of 
question here, right? 

428
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,240
So storing data on blockchain is
notoriously expensive. 

429
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,840
So kind of How do we make that 
work with with Fire Firebirds? 

430
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,000
Beauty of content addressing. 
We're not storing the the whole 

431
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,400
file itself. 
Yeah, we're storing the content 

432
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:54,440
hash onto the blockchain, which 
is just a pointer to a file. 

433
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,200
And that pointer comes with some
properties of self 

434
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,160
certification, which we consider
crucial for what we're building,

435
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,960
especially for public data. 
So you want to be able to see 

436
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:14,000
and have that data integrity 
prove that this information came

437
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,680
from that person. 
And we're absolutely sure of it 

438
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:23,440
because we have a formal proof 
that VJ stamped that data with 

439
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:31,440
his key and that data generated 
hash that anyone can verify and 

440
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:39,600
can verify that no future or no 
new edits or changes happen on 

441
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,880
that data. 
So those properties are quite 

442
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,000
important. 
This is what we use blockchain 

443
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,960
for. 
We're making sure that those 

444
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,360
hashes are stored on chain 
available for anyone. 

445
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,640
And this is what VJ meant with 
not losing your keys. 

446
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,440
You can store it in, for 
example, a smart contract and 

447
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,680
make sure that the smart 
contract is being controlled by 

448
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,680
multiple people, maybe just one 
person but with multiple series 

449
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:16,280
of key pairs and you know, with 
some rules that are publicly 

450
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,840
viewable by anyone and 
triggerable by anyone. 

451
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,440
So this is something that we're 
that Vijay and I are working on 

452
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,440
for the for the Ethereum 
Foundation. 

453
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,360
We have a mechanism for example 
that let's say that Andreas and 

454
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:38,920
Frederique decided that the 
there are too many scientific 

455
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,800
publications that disappear 
every year from the Internet and

456
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,360
this is important loss for 
humanity. 

457
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:52,000
So we decided to put a lot of 
that data on IPFS or R with and 

458
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,800
store those hashes on the 
blockchain to make sure that 

459
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,640
it's always available to 
everyone. 

460
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,440
Andreas and Frederique might 
disappear, but they want to make

461
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,120
sure that this public data, this
public good remains available 

462
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360
and recoverable by someone else.
So they make sure that on that 

463
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,240
smart contract where they they, 
they store the hashes of that 

464
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,960
content and through which they 
pay for the storage of that 

465
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,800
content is recoverable by a 
public community. 

466
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,200
So yeah, this is some of the 
work that we're doing and it's 

467
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,280
not something that you can do 
with any centralized server. 

468
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,720
That depends on you maintaining 
it. 

469
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,160
I think in in that context it 
makes a lot of sense. 

470
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,560
You already said that kind of 
like the actual data gets stored

471
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,200
elsewhere, namely on kind of 
protocols such as IPFS or are 

472
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,800
weave reminder. 
Remind us how they make sure 

473
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,240
that the data actually stays 
around. 

474
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,960
OK. 
So in the, the way that we have 

475
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,480
done right now in terms of in 
the in the way that we have 

476
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,640
structured as like structured 
our nodes or the way that we 

477
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,480
allow people to host their data,
right. 

478
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,560
So what we do is we have a 
storage node let's say and that 

479
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,320
storage node does spinning for 
that person in this in case of 

480
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,440
fireworks. 
This storage node is something 

481
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,680
that we are running right now 
for all our users. 

482
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,720
But later on what we have is 
like you can actually run it on 

483
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,920
your local machine, you can run 
it on your own AWS instance, you

484
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,320
can run it on your like some 
cloud that you just hosted that 

485
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,240
you're hosting in your home and 
so on and so forth. 

486
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,840
So what it does it like that 
storage service pins that data. 

487
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,560
There is a concept called 
pinning and IPFS which keeps 

488
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:54,360
that data on those notes, right?
The beauty of this concept of 

489
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,600
pinning and like why this kind 
of thing actually makes sense, 

490
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,600
is that anyone can come in and 
participate either in the 

491
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,960
storage of those pins or can 
come up with, for example, 

492
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,840
things that can work on top of, 
like can do the transfer from 

493
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,040
one system to another without 
worrying about if data gets 

494
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,480
clogged or like lost in the 
middle, right? 

495
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,400
So to give you an example of 
that, how that looks like is 

496
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,719
that you can have a IPFS hash 
that is pinned on one machine, 

497
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,560
then you have another machine 
that pulls that data from that 

498
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,280
machine and then start spinning 
it for that on on the different 

499
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,280
machine, right? 
So you get right to exit from 

500
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960
one server which is let's say 
hosted by us, and then you can 

501
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760
actually start doing the pinning
for your own self and all your 

502
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,679
own smart contract. 
OK, but basically if I don't 

503
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,280
want to host stuff myself, I 
just want to use IPFS as a 

504
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,200
service. 
How do I make sure not all the 

505
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,760
nodes that kind of because not 
all the nodes store the data. 

506
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,080
I think this is kind of like the
crucial difference to kind of 

507
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,000
like blockchains, right? 
So basically you have you every 

508
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,760
node kind of stores a subset of 
the data. 

509
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,840
So kind of how do I make sure 
that my document doesn't get 

510
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,320
dropped from the network by by 
way of kind of all nodes that 

511
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,240
kind of used to store it, no 
longer storing it or no longer 

512
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,520
being online? 
Yeah, it mainly financial 

513
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,120
incentive. 
It's cool because it really 

514
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:40,520
allows for a self sovereign type
of experience of the Internet 

515
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,560
and data storage and management 
because you can pick and choose 

516
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,200
or mix and match different 
providers of data storage 

517
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,600
according to your needs. 
So if you're someone that really

518
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,040
wants to ensure that your data 
will never disappear, you give a

519
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:06,200
200 year financial incentive for
a network that is specified for 

520
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,920
long term user storage like our 
Wave. 

521
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,080
So instead of going the APFS 
route, you might want to have 

522
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,960
better permanence guarantees and
pay upfront something that is so

523
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,600
much cheaper than doing the same
activity on Google Drive. 

524
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,080
So on our Weave, for example, 
after five years, four years .5 

525
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:35,840
of storage on the our Weave 
network, you're more cost 

526
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:41,000
effective than storing that same
data for 4.5 years on Google 

527
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,960
Drive. 
And from there on it's free. 

528
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,880
So you paid for a 4.5 years 
equivalent to a Google Drive on 

529
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,920
our Weave and then you know that
you have that data there for 200

530
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,280
years because of the incentive 
mechanisms of the network. 

531
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,120
One last point about that, going
back to what you said, how do I 

532
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,960
know, how do I make sure this is
another benefit of what we like 

533
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,880
to call community computers? 
You get a formal proof that you 

534
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,480
can query, that you can ensure 
every day that is there that 

535
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,680
your data is stored on a 
specific hardware somewhere in 

536
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,280
the world. 
That proof is undeniable, 

537
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,760
unbreakable and unspoofable, 
which is very important for 

538
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,080
someone that wants to ensure 
that their data is still up 

539
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,880
there. 
So yeah, you have that proof 

540
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,560
instead of a promise by a 
company saying yes. 

541
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,040
So we have your data, but also 
according to section 7.3 of our 

542
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Terms of Conditions, we can drop
that data if there is a picture 

543
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,560
of a naked bot on it. 
Little do they know that this 

544
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,280
naked bot is your newborn baby. 
You took a picture, it's on your

545
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,600
Google Drive and now you're not 
allowed to use a service and you

546
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,040
all your data is deleted. 
I I use that example because it 

547
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,520
happened a year and a half ago 
with someone using Google Drive.

548
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,760
Yeah. 
So yeah, that that cryptographic

549
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,840
proof plus financial, an 
incentive system that works 

550
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,160
pretty well. 
Why is it so much more expensive

551
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,320
to store things on Google? 
Is it just because they have an 

552
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,760
insane profit margin, or are 
there some? 

553
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,200
Are there some deeper underlying
causes? 

554
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,400
I will point at the fact that 
there hasn't been much change in

555
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:42,000
the pricing of data storage in 
those quasi monopolies for one 

556
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,600
reason. 
They're quasi monopolies. 

557
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:51,000
They do not need to abide by 
market demand conditions 

558
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,760
dynamics, meaning there isn't a 
race between different providers

559
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,400
like there is in different 
Falcon Falcon nodes competing 

560
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,120
with each other to either 
provide the best service in 

561
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,080
terms of UX or provide better 
pricing for the users here. 

562
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,560
When you know that you're the 
only person that the people, or 

563
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,960
the only company that people 
will knock at the door of in 

564
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,440
order to get a certain service, 
why are you going to, you know, 

565
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:27,680
compete with yourself towards a 
more a cheaper or more efficient

566
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,320
or better UX? 
You're already there. 

567
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,680
But there are quite a quite a 
few cloud service providers, so 

568
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,560
it's not just Amazon or Google, 
it's also Microsoft and then 

569
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,720
kind of like smaller ones like 
Hetzner and local ones. 

570
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:47,240
So it should it it it seems like
if if any one of them were to 

571
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:51,680
kind of break the price barrier 
here, they would all have to 

572
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,840
follow at some point, right? 
So I'm not. 

573
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,640
I'm not sure why that's not 
happening if if if storage is 

574
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,320
actually much much cheaper. 
Well, because they're all 

575
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,680
focusing. 
So this is me going into this is

576
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,360
not the fact. 
This is reasoning, educated 

577
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:17,160
reasoning. 
So AWS compared to Google Drive 

578
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,240
are focusing on different types 
of markets, different types of 

579
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:27,360
users. 
AWS has a quasi majority, I 

580
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:36,680
think they have 66% of all 
server usage and and data 

581
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,960
storage. 
But this is much more for 

582
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,560
businesses, for developers, for 
ML engineers, etc. 

583
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,720
Google Drive and the Google 
servers have N same for 

584
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:54,400
Microsoft Office, have direct to
Consumer Focus with their data 

585
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,880
storage and their servers and 
they're basically just those two

586
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,960
together are 2/3 of the market 
for data storage for consumers. 

587
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,120
So yes, there are other players,
they're fighting for a much 

588
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:20,480
smaller chunk of the pie and 
usually they're they're focusing

589
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,520
on a part of the pie that is 
much more specialised. 

590
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,680
So it's a part of the pie for 
consumers that are very focused 

591
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,160
on privacy, preservation or 
guarantees. 

592
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,120
So they allow themselves to have
a different pricing method 

593
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,480
because they know that what 
they're providing is not just 

594
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,720
better pricing but or not at all
better pricing, but just better 

595
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,720
UX or guarantees that meet their
audiences needs. 

596
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:55,600
But if you were to take all that
market together, put them all on

597
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:00,960
the one big category, a system 
where you have millions of 

598
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,400
nodes, millions of providers 
competing with each other to 

599
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,560
meet the needs of their users, 
meaning either pricing or UX or 

600
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:16,040
privacy guarantees, you would 
have different dynamic, is my my

601
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,040
interpretation and different 
pricing models here, because you

602
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,960
have quasi monopolies. 
Even though there are a few 

603
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,600
competitors, those competitors 
are not fighting those quasi 

604
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,000
monopolies on pricing. 
They're fighting them on some 

605
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,040
marginal improvements that are 
very important for a certain 

606
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:43,040
subset of users. 
This is how I see it I I want to

607
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,360
see. 
An efficient market person kind 

608
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,120
of debate this because to me it 
sounds like like because it's 

609
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,400
such a huge market, it's it 
should be an enormous business 

610
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,160
opportunity to kind of just 
drive down the pricing here 

611
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,880
there. 
There is also one important. 

612
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,360
Element to that, which is people
are not just coming for storage,

613
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,520
they're coming for the usage of 
an app or a feature, a Google 

614
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,440
Doc, a Google Sheet. 
And those companies have created

615
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,920
an ecosystem where everything 
that is your essential needs 

616
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,520
when you when you're online or 
you're doing activities online, 

617
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,440
relates back to their storage 
space. 

618
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,880
So competitors that might emerge
would need to also compete on 

619
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,240
the full stack of features and 
tools. 

620
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,880
So it it explains part of it but
I I hear the I hear the the 

621
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,200
concern yeah I I think I think 
the full. 

622
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,160
Stack explanation makes a lot of
sense to me. 

623
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:49,640
So you guys are leveraging smart
contracts to kind of point at 

624
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:57,160
existing file storage protocols.
If you kind of look at what a 

625
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,960
Google Doc does, it kind of 
gives you an infinite number of 

626
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:03,600
points in time that you can go 
back to obviously kind of if you

627
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,200
need to store every one of them 
as kind of a pointer in a smart 

628
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,800
contract that's expensive on 
kind of you know the the, the 

629
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,240
smart contract fees. 
It's also expensive because you 

630
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:16,960
need to store each one of those 
kind of as a separate IPFS or 

631
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,160
are weave document. 
Yeah. 

632
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,680
How, how do you go about that? 
Yeah, so the. 

633
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,640
Interesting part in that is 
basically there are two types of

634
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,920
things when the data is at rest,
rest being that rest state being

635
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,000
for example like OK I have 
finished, I'm finished with this

636
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,760
document, now I want to publish 
it or put it out there, share it

637
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,480
with the people that can 
actually take a look at it and 

638
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,920
so on and so forth. 
That's when we put the data on 

639
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,600
chain. 
Right before that we use a 

640
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,680
peer-to-peer database called 
gun. 

641
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,320
And what it does like it creates
the cryptographic proof for all 

642
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,960
those updates that are 
happening. 

643
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,800
And then it makes sure that 
those updates get transferred 

644
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,800
between the peers that are 
connecting to Fireworks and 

645
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,880
actually help share the 
bandwidth or the updates with 

646
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,200
all the other peers to reduce 
the latency in general. 

647
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,720
So basically there are two types
of systems. 

648
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:19,560
One system is on chain storage, 
another is off chain storage. 

649
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,480
The off chain storage is 
peer-to-peer and shared amongst 

650
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,400
the clients that are connecting 
to the system, connecting to the

651
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,600
document and so on and so forth.
And then there is another system

652
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,800
which is when you want to 
publish and push the things on 

653
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,000
chain or share it with other 
people, that's when you push it 

654
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,080
on chain with the fingerprint 
method. 

655
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,800
OK and. 
Then you also alluded to the 

656
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,280
fact that kind of I can share it
with whoever I want for however 

657
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,560
long I want. 
How do you, how do you implement

658
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,360
that kind of? 
Is it on the smart contract 

659
00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:01,440
basis or is it on the file 
storage system, so basically? 

660
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:07,240
There are two three different 
cases of permissioning as we 

661
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,360
implement as we had implemented.
One of them is like you have a 

662
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,560
document, now you want to share 
it with someone. 

663
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,360
You generated the keys related 
to the document, pushed it on 

664
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,240
chain, shared the thing with 
other person. 

665
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,920
That happening either through 
NFT or through contract is 

666
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,160
something that we can say that 
abstracted out for the sake of 

667
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,440
the simple discussion, right? 
And then we have the other way 

668
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,080
which is like you want to have 
the revocable access, meaning 

669
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,040
you give access to someone and 
then you want to revoke it after

670
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,040
some time. 
In that case, like we have 

671
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,960
something called, it's, it's 
still something that we are 

672
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,600
working on or experimenting on. 
So I'm sharing a bit of a 

673
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,920
forward thing here. 
So it's sort of an UTXO approach

674
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,120
like unspent transaction output 
approach. 

675
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,240
And then you once the 
transaction is executed either 

676
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,200
through a smart contract or 
through someone else, that's 

677
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,160
when you lose access to the 
document or things like that. 

678
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,440
So there are different paradigms
that we are like implementing 

679
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,320
and using and are possible 
because of the smart contract 

680
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:20,200
and us being able to trust 
someone for being able to share 

681
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,880
the access or revoke the access 
without it being done through 

682
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,320
one of our servers. 
OK. 

683
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,800
So if you look at. 
The product as it is today, 

684
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,440
Maybe this? 
There's a question for Andreas. 

685
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,040
What what does it offer me? 
How can I work on it? 

686
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,920
How can how can I collaborate 
using it? 

687
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:47,520
And how does that compare to 
Google Docs for instance? 

688
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,000
OK, so. 
I like to think of it more as a 

689
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,760
Google workspace as a whole. 
So inside of it, you have Google

690
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,000
Docs, you have Google Drive, 
Sheets, etcetera. 

691
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,160
Why? 
Because this is really the suit 

692
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,840
of tools that we're trying to 
provide. 

693
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:10,280
So today you arrive on fibers, 
right now we're permission 

694
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,840
based. 
So your address needs to have 

695
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:19,120
certain characteristics and it's
for us to better manage our 

696
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:25,520
initial user base and core 
users, improve the UX and then 

697
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,200
open it for the world to join. 
So if you have permissions, you 

698
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,400
arrive, you create your account 
in two clicks. 

699
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,800
Those clicks. 
What do they do? 

700
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,360
Very similar flow to safe the 
safe. 

701
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,480
Multi sync you deploy. 
Your smart contract. 

702
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:48,440
That smart contract will serve 
as your repository of of content

703
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,520
hashes and will be doing access 
permissioning for anyone that 

704
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,520
will give access to your files 
to and what type of access. 

705
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,720
Once you've done those two 
clicks and deploy the smart 

706
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:02,440
contract for free, there is a 
dashboard that opens up in front

707
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:07,960
of you UI. 
That UI is not stored on our 

708
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,040
server only you can access it 
through any public IPFS gateway.

709
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,480
So you never need to interact 
with with Fileverse ever again. 

710
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,560
From the moment you've deployed 
a small contract, you have AUI 

711
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,800
that allows you to upload files,
store them publicly or 

712
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,080
privately. 
If it's private, you can choose 

713
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,480
token gating, you can choose 
anyone with a link or you can 

714
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,640
say any of those 10,000 
addresses in my CSV can access 

715
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,520
my file, et cetera. 
Basic storage and permissioning.

716
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,840
You have also a bunch of plug 
insurance and this is probably 

717
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,560
the most exciting thing that 
Favis is doing. 

718
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:54,680
We like to think, or we like to 
communicate the idea that you 

719
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:59,880
can think of your workspace as 
something as customizable as 

720
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,680
your browser. 
Today, a lot of people are 

721
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,920
customizing their browser 
experience or their Internet 

722
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,280
experience by adding extensions.
I have the Internet Archive, I 

723
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:15,160
have Metamask, I have a bunch of
others, Grammarly, etc. 

724
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,440
And we want to do that for your 
workspace, for your 

725
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,080
collaboration space. 
So instead of having a Google 

726
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,040
workspace or a notion that is 
limited to whatever new feature 

727
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,520
the developers have decided they
should push on other users, here

728
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,000
you have a store, let's say, 
where you can drag and drop new 

729
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,520
plug insurance. 
Today the plug insurance are 

730
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,160
developed internally, but we're 
already starting to see people 

731
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,120
propose new plug insurance for 
the dashboard. 

732
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:54,120
So lawyer versus Frederique 
versus a meme Lord like me will 

733
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,000
want to have a different 
workspace and different tools to

734
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,440
create, be productive, etc. 
So right now you have a 

735
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,240
whiteboard. 
Anyone who uses Xalidro would 

736
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,440
love that feature on fibers. 
It's just like Xalidro. 

737
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,120
You can invite people on it as 
well to collaborate live with 

738
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,480
you and the difference is that 
you can create as many 

739
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,960
whiteboards as you want. 
Whereas for eskalido there is a 

740
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,080
limit of five different pages 
that you open. 

741
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,360
Here you can as many as you want
with groups, without groups etc.

742
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:34,280
You have also AD doc, 
decentralized docs plug in so it

743
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:40,320
acts like Google Docs. 
You have mostly the same UX with

744
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,800
a few differences like you can 
dock and gate or people joining 

745
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,400
you in that are editing your 
file can retain their anonymity 

746
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,080
or be represented through their 
wallet address or ENS. 

747
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,800
And you have another that's our 
latest plugin which is called 

748
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,680
Deep Pages. 
Centralized pages, you'll see 

749
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,680
the pattern that act like a 
notion. 

750
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,640
So you click on that plugin and 
you open up a blank page that 

751
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,320
has exactly the same 
characteristics as you have 

752
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:15,880
today. 
On notion, you can create 

753
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,240
tables. 
Tables within tables You can do 

754
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:27,480
cord coding or a code markdown. 
You can embed images, videos, 

755
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,000
tweets. 
On that page you can put a cover

756
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,040
picture. 
You can customize it as much as 

757
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,280
you want. 
So on that you can really do 

758
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,600
anything from blog posting to 
having your internal database or

759
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,880
knowledge base or if. 
And this is where, interestingly

760
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,160
enough, most of the companies 
that came to us saying, hey, we 

761
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,800
would like to use Fileverse 
because we want to use a 

762
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,240
decentralized version of 
everything that we use. 

763
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,160
They've been very interesting in
deep interested in deep pages 

764
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:06,400
specifically for documentation, 
governance and knowledge basis. 

765
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,040
Why? 
Because they realize that if 

766
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,000
notion goes down tomorrow or 
whatever other service they 

767
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,200
might be using, like Gitbook. 
That's it. 

768
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,480
There is 10 years of crypto 
knowledge, discussions, 

769
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,920
interactions with a community 
that has disappeared forever. 

770
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,040
So this is where we intervene 
and this is what most actually 

771
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,560
enterprise, let's call it 
clients have come to us to 

772
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,000
address. 
OK. 

773
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,640
And how do they? 
Pay for this, I mean do they pay

774
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,760
for the on chain storage 
directly and how do they pay for

775
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,960
your services because you kind 
of just you're just an interface

776
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:52,440
to the those services. 
So what's your business model as

777
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,040
fireworks? 
Great question. 

778
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,760
A few things. 
One is we don't want to reinvent

779
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,000
the wheel. 
We're not going to go into this 

780
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:07,280
with, hey, we're pricing it 
according to the number of words

781
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,200
you write. 
We're going with something that 

782
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,400
is quite similar to existing 
models. 

783
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:19,000
So it's either based on storage,
storage space or based on 

784
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,800
specific features that you might
want to get, like, and this is 

785
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:31,600
me already giving some secret 
details of what's coming soon. 

786
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,120
But let's say you want to have a
local LLM help you either 

787
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:41,960
generate images or synthesize a 
report for you or help you write

788
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,320
something. 
Those are special features that 

789
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,640
you would need to unlock by 
either paying or etcetera. 

790
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:55,800
Right now though, Favors is in 
allow list mode and everything 

791
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,080
is free. 
So we want to make sure that the

792
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:03,200
the first iteration of Favors, 
what we're working on right now 

793
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,840
is just something that blows 
everyone away in terms of UX. 

794
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,680
And for that we decided to focus
on there are over 7000 unique 

795
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,440
addresses that are recurrently 
using Favors at the moment. 

796
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,160
Those individuals are for us the
opportunity to nail the UX. 

797
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:28,000
So we're not pushing a business 
model onto them and we want to 

798
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,800
ensure that even when we do and 
it is either storage based or 

799
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,760
feature based payment, we want 
them to know that whatever 

800
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:45,880
happens, they can continue using
the service and paying through 

801
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,960
alternative paths. 
For example, instead of having 

802
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,600
your data replicated on three 
nodes and that managed or paid 

803
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,720
to fibers directly, you do that 
yourself on R WIF through the 

804
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:02,640
same UI and through the contract
that you deployed or you want 

805
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,800
to. 
You really like pinata or the 

806
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:10,240
APFS ecosystem. 
You use pinata or you want to 

807
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:13,720
store everything locally, 
perfect your smart contract and 

808
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:17,480
the UI were made for you to 
customize your needs in terms of

809
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,760
storage and never be dependent 
on a team that might disappear 

810
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,160
tomorrow. 
So yeah, this is the 

811
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:27,640
customizability even on the 
business model side. 

812
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,120
And we think that we're going to
be attracting a lot of people 

813
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:36,200
that do indeed want to have 
those options and you know, an 

814
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,240
ecosystem of plug in where they 
know it's not the Fibers team 

815
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:43,080
that created this new, this new 
plug in, but it's someone else. 

816
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,680
And I can pay that developer 
myself. 

817
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,680
Yeah, nice. 
And. 

818
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,360
You said. 
Earlier that kind of you're. 

819
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,200
Striving to kind of make the 
best UX possible, you you 

820
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,440
actually said that you want your
grandparents to use this. 

821
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,000
Currently web free products are 
notoriously difficult to use. 

822
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,920
How do you achieve that? 
Or do you think you're there 

823
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,200
already? 
So I. 

824
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,400
Think we're halfway there. 
I think already, and this is 

825
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:17,920
this is probably my my favorite 
success story with flowers, 

826
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:25,480
which is that at my university 
department a lot of people, if 

827
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,800
not the majority, are quite 
sceptical about the value of 

828
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,120
block chains and anything crypto
associated. 

829
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:39,840
And I presented our our product 
to them without mentioning 

830
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,240
anything a blockchain about it, 
just, you know, talking about 

831
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,560
data and computational 
integrity, recovery mechanisms, 

832
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,520
group ownership and trustless 
interactions. 

833
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,880
And people really liked it. 
And it was a version where you 

834
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,880
didn't have to connect any 
wallet and people used it and 

835
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,520
people really liked it. 
Then I said I dropped the B word

836
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,160
and they were like, yes, but 
you're burning the planet by by 

837
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,760
using those logs. 
So what's? 

838
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,800
What's really I think? 
Our our main contribution to the

839
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,040
crypto space is that we're 
pushing non financial 

840
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,840
applications and those non 
financial applications have a 

841
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:29,120
extremely low barrier to entry, 
even if we don't have the best 

842
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,920
UI or UX at the moment. 
Why? 

843
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:36,160
Because we removed a huge 
barrier, which was you need to 

844
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,400
have a wallet. 
In that wallet you need to have 

845
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,640
tokens. 
For you to have tokens you need 

846
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,280
to go through a centralized 
exchange. 

847
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,280
For you to use that centralized 
exchange, you need to give your 

848
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,720
ID. 
You need to pass KYC, you need 

849
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,320
to give the color of your cat. 
You need to tell them how many 

850
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:54,880
times you go to the toilets per 
day. 

851
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:59,000
You need to do all those things 
that are quite ridiculous, that 

852
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:05,640
are that destroy any trace of 
privacy for anyone that starts 

853
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,360
interacting with the crypto 
world like we we want to like 

854
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,000
the space in general, wants to 
push self sovereignty, privacy 

855
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,720
and ownership onto people. 
And yet, their first stop in 

856
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,200
order to join our industry is 
through a centralized exchange, 

857
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,440
is through buying tokens. 
That's not, that's not OK, 

858
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,320
that's not going to be 
sustainable. 

859
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,080
We want to have that one stop 
entry where you don't need 

860
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:37,440
anything. 
You just need to want to create 

861
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,240
a doc, share something with 
someone. 

862
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:41,880
That's it. 
It's daily activities people 

863
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,200
already have on the Internet. 
There's no reason why we 

864
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,520
shouldn't be able to provide 
that with better guarantees of 

865
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,400
privacy and ownership. 
How do you log in? 

866
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,760
Then without a wallet, OK. 
So. 

867
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,240
There are a few things. 
The first iteration of Fathers, 

868
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,840
it was just. 
You can think of it as an 

869
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:05,120
alternative to We transfer. 
You would arrive, you'd upload 

870
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,320
the file, you would share it 
immediately. 

871
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,240
No wallet needed. 
Your identifier is basically 

872
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,920
just your browser. 
Things happen client, client 

873
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,720
side and that's it today with 
the current version of of 

874
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,520
Fathers. 
It is wallet based, but you have

875
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:30,200
options to go without a wallet 
that are coming very soon. 

876
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:34,960
It's the work that we're doing 
in parallel also for the 

877
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,720
Ethereum Foundation and it's the
famous social login. 

878
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,680
So social login is something 
that happens on your browser 

879
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:48,680
level. 
On client side you can so 

880
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,600
depending on the path that we 
take, you'd be able to for 

881
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:58,080
example use your e-mail as your 
identifier or use let's say an 

882
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:02,840
existing key pair, your PGP key 
pair in order to associate the 

883
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:08,520
wallet to it in an efficient and
non long setup, seed phrase blah

884
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,880
blah blah way. 
Or you can do something else, 

885
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,280
which is This is what we call 
internally the Argent path which

886
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,240
is put 2-3 phone numbers of your
friends or yourself or your 

887
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,560
family. 
They will now become the 

888
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:27,240
guardians of the access to your 
data and to all that in case you

889
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,280
either lose it or you just want 
to fast login. 

890
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,680
So there are a few paths, and 
one that already exists today 

891
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,360
is, but it does require. 
A bit of a. 

892
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,480
Setup You can create file versus
file with smart contract via the

893
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,320
Safe Multi sync today via Safe 
Multi sync, so the Safe user 

894
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,040
interface and thankfully safe 
shipped. 

895
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,480
Also social logins. 
So now you can you know with 

896
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:57,000
with an e-mail login directly 
onto followers if you go through

897
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,480
the Safe UI. 
Cool. 

898
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,160
Perfect. 
So. 

899
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,480
Unfortunately we're almost that 
time I need to wrap up, but 

900
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:10,520
what's coming for five hours in 
in in this new year, Yeah. 

901
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,160
Great question. 
Thanks for asking. 

902
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,240
There are a few really exciting 
things that are coming, 

903
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,800
including things focused around 
UX. 

904
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:26,400
So we want people to be able to 
log in finally just in one click

905
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,000
and without having necessarily 
to go through the mental 

906
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,520
exercise of creating a wallet, 
etc. 

907
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,400
So this is coming. 
We have better recovery 

908
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:42,400
mechanisms that are coming. 
We have something that is core 

909
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,760
to something we've been, we've 
been focusing a lot of our 

910
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:51,720
efforts on which is 
customizability of data storage 

911
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:57,560
even more than there is today 
and there is also a lot of new 

912
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:03,080
plugins coming in. 
I just want to mess to mention 

913
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:08,440
in passing that VJ is the Co 
creator and organizing of She 

914
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:18,400
Builds which is the biggest non 
male focused hackathon event in 

915
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:25,080
in an organization in India. 
And we have not only a lot of 

916
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,680
participants that are learning 
what Web Three is all about, but

917
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:34,040
we've had a lot of people 
already start proposing new 

918
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,840
plugins and ways for them to 
monetize their plugins via 

919
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,920
fowers. 
So this is going to be very 

920
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,200
exciting because you're you're 
seeing really the seeds of 

921
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,800
fireworks becoming something 
that is not just VJ, 

922
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,440
Constantine, Andreas and the 
team, but something that is that

923
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:52,560
has been. 
Completely. 

924
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:58,360
Re adopted, re appropriated by 
anyone who wants it and go into 

925
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,560
into a full community play. 
So those are a few things I'm 

926
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,600
excited about. 
VJ probably has maybe different 

927
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,240
things. 
Yeah, so one. 

928
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,960
Key thing which would sort of 
like answer one question that 

929
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:16,320
you were alluding to like how do
you make sure that the IPFS 

930
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:20,640
hashes that you have published 
on chain actually stay around. 

931
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:25,200
So those are different kind of 
like that's that's a very 

932
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:29,320
interesting and unique problem 
that we have just because our 

933
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,800
storage is decentralized, right.
And this problem has been solved

934
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:37,280
by multiple providers, for 
example File Coin RV and 

935
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,120
different other players in the 
ecosystem already. 

936
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,760
What we are thinking of is like 
how can we make use of these 

937
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:48,440
different providers and then 
maybe ask them to come up with 

938
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,440
the network that supports 
Fireworks, let's say network 

939
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:56,080
one, Network 2, Network 3. 
And users can pick between these

940
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,960
three networks instead of, you 
know, us giving them an option 

941
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:02,360
that OK, you go with one person 
or the other. 

942
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,360
And the best part that you get 
is like you get right to exit 

943
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,000
from network A to network B 
because of the data like 

944
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,360
fingerprint that is stored on 
chain, right. 

945
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:17,720
And you get this right to exit 
from any of the services that we

946
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:21,480
do just because of the way that 
we are making sure the data is 

947
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,360
stored, making sure the data is 
shared and so on and so forth. 

948
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,960
So yeah, that's a that's a very 
interesting work and I think 

949
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,840
that's something that's very 
unique as well. 

950
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,040
Super cool guys, so. 
For people who want to build on 

951
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:43,640
fibers or just try it out, how 
How does one get whitelisted to 

952
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,080
kind of use this? 
Right now it's. 

953
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,520
Direct communication with us. 
There are a few things that you 

954
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,120
can already do in order to get 
access. 

955
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,440
For example, if you have a safe 
multi sig, you're automatically 

956
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,480
allow listed and you can deploy 
your filers. 

957
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:06,080
But if you want to try it out, 
we have recurrent campaigns that

958
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:11,640
pop up every now and then. 
Or you can really just DM fibers

959
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:16,400
directly. 
We're usually very open to that 

960
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:21,320
or any one of the the the people
working on on fibers. 

961
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,480
And this is both for users that 
want to try something non 

962
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,640
financial in crypto or show 
during the holidays to their 

963
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:31,240
family. 
Hey, you don't need money or 

964
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,440
speculation to use something in 
crypto. 

965
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:38,360
And for teams that want to build
on fireworks using fireworks, 

966
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,600
destroy fireworks, whatever they
want, they can either go 

967
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:46,440
directly on GitHub, they can go 
on radical, or they can again 

968
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:51,040
message us. 
We're constantly talking with 

969
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,680
different teams, so we're happy 
to see that type of those types 

970
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,520
of interactions. 
Perfect. 

971
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:00,600
Thank you guys. 
It's been a real pleasure, 

972
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:02,680
Hedereke. 
Thank you. 

973
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,640
Thanks for all the great 
questions. 

974
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:11,080
Also for putting your finger 
where where you know the the 

975
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:15,560
real discussion can happen and 
things might be a bit wobbly. 

976
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:20,000
It's always a pleasure and yeah,
hope we we can return maybe in a

977
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,640
year to show how much progress 
has been made. 

978
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:26,480
Thank you for joining us on this
week's. 

979
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:28,840
Episode We release new episodes 
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980
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,280
You can find and subscribe to 
the show on iTunes, Spotify, 

981
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,320
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982
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,480
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983
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,560
To listen to the latest episode 
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984
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,680
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985
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:46,920
can watch and listen. 
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986
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,400
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987
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,120
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988
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,680
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989
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,080
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990
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:58,640
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991
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,080
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992
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,440
So thanks so much and we look 
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