1 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,000 This episode is brought to you by Gnosis. 2 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,720 Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum 3 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,480 ecosystem with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products 4 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,400 like Safe Cow Swap or Gnosis Chain, Gnosis combines Needs 5 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,840 Driven development with deep technical expertise. 6 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,160 This year marks the launch of Gnosis Pay, the world's first 7 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:42,600 decentralized payment network. With Agnosis card, you can spend 8 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,480 self custody crypto at any visa accepting merchant around the 9 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,960 world. If you're an individual looking 10 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,440 to live more on chain or business looking to white label 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,200 the stack, visit gnosispay.com. There are lots of ways you can 12 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,800 join the Gnosis journey. Drop in the Gnosis Dow 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,680 Governance form, become a Gnosis validator with a single GNO 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,160 token and low cost hardware, or deploy your product on the EVM 15 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,000 compatible and highly decentralized Gnosis chain. 16 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,880 Get started today at gnosis dot IO. 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,040 Cos One is one of the biggest node operators globally and help 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,160 you stake your tokens on 45 plus networks like Ethereum, Cosmos, 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,360 The last year. In dydx, more than 100,000 20 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,560 delegators stake with Chorus One, including institutions like 21 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,400 Bit Go and Ledger. Sticking with Chorus 1 not only 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,080 gets you the highest years but also the most robust security 23 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,240 practices and infrastructure that are usually exclusive for 24 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,520 institutions. You can stake directly to Chorus 25 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,520 One's public note from your wallet, set up a white table 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,480 note, or use the recently launched product Opus to stake 27 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,280 up to 8000 ETH in a single transaction. 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,720 You can even offer high yield staking to your own customers 29 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,720 using their API. Your assets always remain in 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,360 your custody, so you can have complete Peace of Mind. 31 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,479 Start staking today at Chorus .1. 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,720 Hello everyone, I'm Mahed Roy and today I'm catching up with 33 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,560 Anish Muhammad who is the Co founder and CTO and maybe even 34 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,720 the lead researcher of Panther Protocol. 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:31,240 Panther Protocol is one of the one of the main projects that is 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,400 operating in the prefi space, which is extending, you know, 37 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,960 the notions of privacy that we have in the blockchain area, 38 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,000 right? You have a lot of projects in 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,000 cryptocurrency where the idea is that a user should be able to 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,880 transact on a blockchain system. They have full privacy, as in 41 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,560 they know only they should be able to know what they did, 42 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,000 which makes regulatory compliance hard. 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,280 And Panther Protocol is taking the approach that yes, full 44 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,680 privacy is valuable, but also there are many use cases where 45 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:17,080 regulatory compliance has to be factored in the privacy equation 46 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,360 right from the start. And they're building a project 47 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,480 where various kinds of disclosures, various kinds of 48 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,200 KYC processes etcetera can be put into D5 workflows. 49 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:32,240 So there's a protocol in development and we'll we'll 50 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,320 cover the various objectives and where they are in their life 51 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,040 cycle. Hi, Aneesh. 52 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,520 Welcome to the show. Hey, thank you. 53 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,920 Thank you for having me. So Aneesh, we have met I think 54 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,880 the last time in 2015. So you you've been involved in 55 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:57,320 the crypto space for a long, long while, and so tell us your 56 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,840 journey of how you how we got into crypto in the first place. 57 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,320 Oh, you mean cryptography or crypto Crypto. 58 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:10,240 Yeah, crypto crypto crypto like the the meaning that we stole 59 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:16,839 from cryptography. OK so a Full disclosure. 60 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,440 A friend of mine the the two-part story. 61 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,480 One part story is how I got into cryptography mailing list. 62 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,920 The other part story is professionally how I got into 63 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,680 payment systems. So my first degree is in 64 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,800 medicine. After I did my medicine degree 65 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,560 in India, I was offered a job by Ericsson in Sweden. 66 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,680 They had a micro payment system called Yelda. 67 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,400 Yelda, as they call it, and my task was to write a wrapper for 68 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,400 open SSL so we could actually mean. 69 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,840 I did review and did some work on wrapping it up. 70 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,760 So for me, payment sisters was something was in my head like, 71 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,880 you know, big problem offline doublesmith, right. 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,520 And the second part of the thread list, I don't know you're 73 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,800 from India, so you probably heard about that silk list. 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,280 A friend of mine called Uday, Uday Shankar, he runs this list 75 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,800 and he had John Barry, a guy who runs the cryptography mailing 76 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,160 list on the list and he kind of got me into the list. 77 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,880 So you know, two things happened where, hey, I had this previous 78 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,880 exposure and you know, having gone to grad school to do 79 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,320 cryptography and all those things and being exposed to 80 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,720 double spent problem, you're on a cryptography mailing list and 81 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,720 you see this and go, wow, interesting. 82 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,440 And I shall put my head up and say wow, interesting that's 83 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,240 where it ended. I read the thing and then like 84 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,280 in 2010, thirty eleven. I think me and Amir Takiya and a 85 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:45,040 bunch of people had a workshop in our hackerspace in London and 86 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,600 be very explaining to people how to do mining and for the rest of 87 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,840 it. Like in 2013 I became an advisor 88 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:53,640 to Ruble and they asked me if I was addressed it. 89 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,760 And when Ethereum happened again the same thing in London, Victor 90 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,960 Tron actually met me. He asked me if I would help and 91 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:02,840 then you know Ethereum swamp. I was one of the reviewers of 92 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:04,960 the orders paper. I spent a bit of time with the 93 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,000 team. Yeah, the story goes on like you 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,200 know, I've been involved in desire desire review of half a 95 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:18,120 descent layer ones probably you know 1820 taps ZK for a last 7-8 96 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,840 years now. And do I remember it correctly 97 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:27,280 that you also worked for UUBS or no Lloyds on Lloyds? 98 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:29,360 Bank. Yeah. 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,560 Lloyds and HSBC. Yeah. 100 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,560 I was a retail banker. I was my day job. 101 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,080 This is all things I did for fun, right? 102 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,640 It's like I had I think I don't know what we met for. 103 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,760 I thought robotics. So I have been involved in a 104 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,720 whole bunch of things. Cloud, big data, open source 105 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,000 robotics which is drones and crypto crypto crypto. 106 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,240 So I ran a bunch of meetups everywhere. 107 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,200 I don't know what what is the recent how we met. 108 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,080 I I still don't recollect, but you know all these things. 109 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,600 Anything I get interested I try for in my effort. 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,000 And you know, these are all my spare time activities. 111 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,280 In the last few years you were building Panther Protocol, which 112 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:10,240 has which has a really interesting approach to to 113 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,960 privacy and compliance for for for Defy. 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,320 Why did you start building this project? 115 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,360 What were your initial thoughts? I, I, I, I will give you the 116 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,760 it's Whitney is always a story so I suspect I'm interested in 117 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,600 philosophy. So my co-author his name is 118 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,800 Shark Mohan. We wrote a paper like 2011. 119 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,360 It is looking at the title of the paper is a new secret. 120 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,200 It kind of describes the information arbitrage and 121 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,680 structures in power. So if you were to think about 122 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,800 anything you know, if you have an information arbitrage ever. 123 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Well, I mean I typically give the example of when society was 124 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,120 primitive there was a language existing in one smart man, 125 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,760 woman, whatever, being able to count the number of moon days. 126 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,640 You know how they could be the representative of moon on earth 127 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,680 like count till 28th, 29th day. Not happening. 128 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,480 Go to the mount and sit so that everybody has oh moon God don't 129 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:10,600 appear today. Right. 130 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,840 There you go. Next day the oh, moon God come 131 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,680 back. You know now that the person has 132 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,880 said moon God not to come. Everybody wants light so they do 133 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160 hunting in the night. So they they haven't you know an 134 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,920 alpha in having the moon be predictable. 135 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,680 So there there you go. This is an information arbitrage 136 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,720 instructor with power. And when crypto came about I was 137 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,320 like, look, there is going to be a real inversion happening and 138 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,280 I've been involved as I was describing like all the big data 139 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,200 things and all those things. It's like all the way from cloud 140 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,799 to big data. I've been involved very heavily. 141 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,880 So for me I could actually see what is going to come 142 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,400 effectively, you know, once the data is all in public, the thing 143 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,120 with, you know, blockchains, it's like a bizarre thing, 144 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,920 right? So all the states is visible, 145 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:59,560 all the smart contacts are visible, all the vulnerabilities 146 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:02,040 are visible and everything is visible. 147 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,520 So you know if you had to apply an ML and do something both in 148 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,280 terms of attacking and recognizing things, which is a 149 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,000 bit of a challenge, right. If you were to look at the 150 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 traditional and as as you were pointing out like you know I've 151 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,240 been a retail banker as well. So I've understood finance quite 152 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:19,920 well. So, so I've worked in Michael, 153 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,520 Michael Payments, reinsurance and you know finance in a larger 154 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,280 sense. So for me and I did some work 155 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,680 for hedge funds and things like that. 156 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:30,640 So for me I understand trade, you know trade fine quite well 157 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:32,280 and retail finance and banking well. 158 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:37,240 And I understand the construct of you know KYC, you know KYCKYT 159 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,200 and and the value KYCKYT has, right, it's like you know it it, 160 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,160 it could be a limiting factor of anybody added. 161 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,880 What do you describe as a regulatory arbitrage if you have 162 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,160 two countries, one has a different KYC regime and other 163 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,120 one has a KYC regime, there's a regulatory arbitrage there. 164 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,600 So I understood all of this and I looked at it. 165 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,120 I went, you know what? We have an opportunity to 166 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,720 actually this is like a two-part story. 167 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,840 One part story is like looking into this future and thinking 168 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,600 crypto is not going to be the crypto that we see as a tiny 169 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,800 bit. It has to go to the space where 170 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,240 it's a fraction of the trade by space, right? 171 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:17,880 The straight fire is always a magnitude bigger and crypto is 172 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,840 tiny. And for trade fire to endo or 173 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,760 crypto to end the trade fire, we need to have this mechanism 174 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,600 where that is equivalence. Equivalence in terms of 175 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,400 regulation, equivalence in terms of understanding equivalence in 176 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,760 terms of moving between the two. And you know, for me and like in 177 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,040 my Co founder, when we had the chat for us it was like this, 178 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,720 this the obvious thing which is like, OK, you have to build, you 179 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,240 know, a mechanism by which we could actually have mechanisms 180 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,960 that exist in Trade 5 like dark pools, right, And mechanisms 181 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,600 that exist in the Trade 5, which is KYCKYT, build them two 182 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,000 together and make it available for D5. 183 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,440 So this is like the journey of Python. 184 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,880 Right in my own, in my own experience, you could think of 185 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,920 kind of the conversation around privacy as existing on a on a 186 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,520 spectrum, so on. On the one side you have like 187 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,640 Bitcoin and Ethereum where all your balances are public, all 188 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,080 your smart contact interactions are public and the day I share 189 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:28,360 my address with the tax authority in one country is, is 190 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,240 the day they are able to follow me through life. 191 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,040 And it's obviously non ideal, I mean even as an at an individual 192 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,720 level, but if I were to think of at like a corporate level it's 193 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,400 it's definitely, it's definitely non ideal. 194 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,680 Massive problem. Yeah you alpha is you know like 195 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,920 yeah the the problem. I would describe Meher as 196 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,160 something like this. Like you and I for us, our the 197 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,680 half life of data for us is much lesser, Half life for data for 198 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:03,400 enterprises are much bigger. And also The thing is deliveries 199 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,920 they have is bigger, right. They could actually do 200 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,360 transactions which are orders of magnitude 456 orders of 201 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,280 magnitude bigger than us, right. So for them, the strategy has 202 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,360 much higher value. For you and me, our strategy 203 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,000 because of multiple reasons, right. 204 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,040 The strategy doesn't really have that was a value for them. 205 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,600 It's very high value. So this is the thing that 206 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,440 actually happened. So the best example I give is 207 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,480 Renaissance Technologies, right? Nobody really tells anybody like 208 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,400 how they do it, but they have no 30 or 40% return on investment 209 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,880 even when the market is going down. 210 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,960 Known correlated gains, right. And how is that possible? 211 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,320 That is possible because their strategy is all private. 212 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,160 And how is that possible in the finance and why is in that it's 213 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,720 available for us given our volatility, we should have a lot 214 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,040 more returns, right? If you were able to have 215 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,840 institutions that can actually have both, to me that's that's 216 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,880 the future of, you know, I I would say crypto, the way I see 217 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:01,520 it mean like, you know, compliant crypto. 218 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,600 Right. And on the other side, you have 219 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,600 this other part of crypto where it's the Z cash, the Monero, the 220 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,360 Tornado cash, all of the system one with Dark Wallet. 221 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Amit Taki is probably the perfect example of it. 222 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,880 Where you have a generation of technologists that are building 223 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,600 privacy systems on crypto. Where the end objective is that 224 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:31,400 when I as an individual transact on crypto, nobody should be able 225 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:37,880 to know what I've done on a cryptosystem and and when when 226 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,200 I've used those cryptosystems, my central challenge ends up 227 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,840 becoming that and at the end of the year I have to make a tax 228 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,200 statement. How do I even explain to the tax 229 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,520 authority this is a particular shielded pool that I use, that's 230 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:58,080 the input, that's the output. And like I am fine as a user, 231 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,400 I'm not doing something illegal, I I'm just using a shielded pool 232 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,960 because I want to unlink the two And how do I even provide the 233 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,080 trace of it to an authority? And I'm sure that the problem is 234 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,200 bigger for a company. And so when when you look, when 235 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:19,160 you study kind of like this vision for the Dark Wallet or 236 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:26,600 Dark Fi or all these systems, you realize it's it's a vision 237 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,600 like like there is value in it. But I can't actually utilize 238 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,800 these tools because for me, in the end I have to pro. 239 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,040 I have to provide a a trace of what I did to a tax authority at 240 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,840 the end of the year. Yeah, you are in the US you 241 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,480 have, IRSIRS says global visibility of everything. 242 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,960 And this actually makes it difficult for a bunch of us. 243 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,600 So I mean Amir, as I was saying, like I've known Amir now, I 244 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,120 don't know, 14-13, fourteen years now. 245 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,800 I told you you can go on hackerspace website or some 246 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,440 places you can see pictures of me and him. 247 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,200 I believe there's a couple of other people there in 248 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,480 hackerspace, like, and I last saw him in Montenegro, right? 249 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,680 And he invited me to his place. I haven't been there, but I 250 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,160 really like him. I like his idea, his idealities, 251 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,200 and he's a very enthusiastic and meticulous person who tries to 252 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,880 learn everything. When you meet him, you'll have a 253 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,760 bunch of papers printed out in this app, right? 254 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,960 So you know, credit is where credit is due. 255 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,440 He definitely is pushing the envelope, as you rightly pointed 256 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,560 out. The talent is exactly what he 257 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,120 pointed out, right? So if there is ever a tainted 258 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,560 wallet in the mix, if you have a bigger problem because and the 259 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,560 problem is the way the law sees this not problem is the way that 260 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,880 how we can implement it, right. So we need to think this in a 261 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,600 way that we, you know, we don't it's harder to provide exclusion 262 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,680 proofs, right. This is the talent, right. 263 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,440 So we have to actually then filter things in. 264 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,840 So when people come in we need to be able to say that OK, you 265 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,040 know what we won't allow these other people that or if I can 266 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,360 actually made a list of. So we will have to use a third 267 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,240 party which is outside who does services to everybody else. 268 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,200 So you know same set of services we can actually consume that 269 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,480 traditional trade fi, investment banking finance actually uses, 270 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,040 right. They could do the KYC and they 271 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,080 could do this almost the same KYT as well. 272 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,720 And then The thing is when you want to reveal these things you 273 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,400 can actually reveal it in different ways. 274 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,960 So our initial symbol reveal mechanism is like a covet reveal 275 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,880 mechanism where you as a user can actually reveal. 276 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,120 I mean, but I should probably say this to you, one of the 277 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,400 things that everybody should recognize when you do review is 278 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,400 that you are reducing the privacy set, right. 279 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,960 If you know imagine there's a pool in which like that 10 280 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,480 participants, right, let's say 100 participants and like 50 of 281 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,360 them are out of the US, then IRS would definitely get 50 282 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,240 transcripts, right? They are 1 1/2. 283 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,160 You know, they have a very good time to know exactly what's 284 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,800 happening everywhere. So that is something that 285 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 everybody needs to understand. And in in one sense that is 286 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,599 probably not the reason why they're using it, right. 287 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,480 So they're using it to actually, you know, guard the alpha. 288 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,119 And if IRS recognizes the strategy they're applying 289 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,079 assumption here is legal, they can look at it. 290 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,560 OK. This is a tax go. 291 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,960 That's fine that that's that's the way we should be thinking 292 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,520 about not of the way like you know, I don't want anybody to 293 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,960 see the transaction. The The thing is like the 294 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,040 transaction is the privacy is bounded. 295 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,640 When you walk in you get privacy shield for while you're doing 296 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,640 this thing. When you walk out you lose it 297 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,560 and at that point in time you have to reveal all those things. 298 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Now you have the transcripts in both ends and there are a bunch 299 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,320 of other things that are correlating. 300 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,040 So you when you you know when use map US meha where to go back 301 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,280 to IRS and say I deployed. So let's think of an example 302 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,840 you're using. You know let me walk you through 303 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,120 how you come into Fanta and you using UNISFAP adapter and you 304 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,960 deploying some capital in UNISF P3 as a liquidity provider and 305 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,000 how you're going to submit it to IRS. 306 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,880 So when you as Mehar comes in, we are currently using the third 307 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,720 party service provider called Purify PURIFI and what they do 308 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,200 is they would do all the normal things which is like you know 309 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,360 they had the whole capacity to do everything. 310 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,680 Right now we are just doing minimal things because we 311 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,400 restricted the total amount of money you could actually you 312 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,120 know transact in the protocol and we want because like you 313 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,880 know it's a test, everything is being tested out. 314 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,960 So we kind of, you know, running things at a minimal level. 315 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,320 So once you've actually been going through the KYC process, 316 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,080 you know that they would do a ECDSA signature on the thing. 317 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,560 We have a kind of an interface that's been agreed between us 318 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Panther One side and our KYC provider. 319 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,080 We can have multiple KYC providers, but at this moment in 320 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,840 time we have one and we have this interface built. 321 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,200 We're using a JUB jub, a baby jub, jub and we have a signature 322 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,840 that comes in. Once you have the signature, 323 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,400 then we would actually have the first set of circuits that 324 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,640 actually map you from your KYC Violet to a new set of 325 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,000 addresses. In that sense that is your new 326 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,560 address from which you're going to use, you know your access to 327 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,240 do transactions, OK And now you go to multi associated pool and 328 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,920 there's an adapter to Uniswap, right. 329 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,360 So Panther, UNISWAP. So in UNISWAP you deployed some 330 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,760 liquidity, but where everybody looks at it, it looks like 331 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,520 Panther is actually doing it right. 332 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,280 So they could be like you know 10,000 thousand, 10,000 whatever 333 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,880 that number of users, right. So it's the aggregate of 334 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,560 everything you see on outside world, outside world sees that 335 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,520 interaction. So you deploy liquidity in 336 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,200 Unisab B3 like I can't remember optimism wherever that AirDrop 337 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,920 was and somebody made like 3-4 mil. 338 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,840 So imagine that's the case like he, you know, nobody would 339 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,600 actually be able to point at you and say hey man how did this? 340 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,920 No, it'll be like somebody using you know whatever and IRS knows 341 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,840 for sure use when you submit IRS, IRS would say, ah yes, how 342 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,840 did may have get 2 million may have actually provided this from 343 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,720 this point to this point these other set of transactions And 344 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,520 all of that is clear. Mayhar is in the good. 345 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,280 Mayhar keeps his money. Mayhar keeps his strategy. 346 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,400 Mayhar is good and his app is good. 347 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,000 Panther is good. That's how we think we should go 348 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,520 forward. That's really cool. 349 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,280 It's like the it's like straddling the the centre that 350 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,280 is almost absent in crypto. It's like not fully public but 351 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,240 they're not fully trying to build that dark dark Phi, right. 352 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,320 It's it's like Panther is ultimately straddling that 353 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,240 centre and it's one of the few projects that is straddling that 354 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,800 centre and getting into commerce which is just the interesting 355 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,880 part of it and and of course like the complexity is in the is 356 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,000 in the technology that that that makes it happen. 357 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,880 So we'll we'll kind of get get into that. 358 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:03,040 So you gave gave this example of a Uniswap pool where? 359 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,680 Where? Maybe in the beginning I'm 360 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,320 imagining I have something like an Ethereum address. 361 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,720 Maybe it's maybe it's on a different chain. 362 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,400 Yeah, I mean Panther is pretty much on Evian compatible. 363 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,680 We have deployed on Polygon, so we are going to deploy Flare as 364 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,720 well. We might deploy another EVM 365 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,520 compatible chains. So it is, let's assume an EVM 366 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,960 compatible chain and an EVM compatible address. 367 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,920 And there exists UNICEP. Let's assume those things and 368 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,480 then let's get out. OK. 369 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,320 So it's like I can imagine Panther as kind of a smart 370 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,440 contract, multi asset pool that can that can that can be 371 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:44,080 deployed. On. 372 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,560 On any of these EVM chains, right, so. 373 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,800 There are some caveats to it but you know it's like a support for 374 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,440 the curves. You know you know effectively 375 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,600 it's called 16 and BL 250. So it's like you know the 376 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,080 support for library support for tooling that's kind of things 377 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,480 that are because it's you and because it's me. 378 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,760 I want to be very fair, you know and any of the audience that's 379 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,680 listening to I I don't want to have a people and make it into 380 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,800 thinking he said this that's not the case. 381 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,440 Yes, there are some nuances to this. 382 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,600 When he used ZKZK needs to be supported. 383 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,560 You know it it has to be fast and cheap. 384 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,400 So we can actually like there is no point in providing privacy 385 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,280 for things where it doesn't really add value. 386 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,480 Like the key thing is like if you were to go to McDonald's and 387 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,400 you were to buy a burger, you might get a smoothie. 388 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,120 It's unlikely you will ever go to McDonald's just for the 389 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:37,440 smoothie. Very rare. 390 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,240 But yeah, that's that's what I was saying. 391 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,400 Here. Right. 392 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,400 So so then I start off with a normal Polygon address. 393 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,480 Maybe this is even one that I had given to the tax authorities 394 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,640 in the past. And then the first thing is I 395 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,600 somehow interact with the the Panther system on Polygon and I 396 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:56,720 ended I. Ended. 397 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,760 OK, so let me walk you through. Yeah, let me walk you through. 398 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,600 So you come in. If you want to go to Panther, as 399 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,600 I was describing, you're going to go to Purify. 400 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,400 Purify will do the verification. And now you have a derived 401 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,240 address from your first address. You have a derived address, so 402 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,680 he will derive for like an address. 403 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,440 The map between the two or the link between the two is only 404 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,560 visible to you in that sense. OK? 405 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,840 And now you with this address you're going. 406 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,560 To only visible to me, not even to purify my KYC provider. 407 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,080 It is visible to purify in a sense like purify actually as a 408 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,920 transcripts, right? So if they decrypt and then like 409 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,840 what they have there is literally the transcripts of all 410 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,200 the transactions, right? So this map, this bit of the 411 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,080 transcript is not fully visible to them. 412 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,600 Whatever you do with them, they have the transcripts and that's 413 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,520 visible to you, you and them. Right now if everything is put 414 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,720 together, everything will be visible, right. 415 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,680 So on their own they can't actually, you know, they can 416 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,240 only do the first part of it, right, which is like they can 417 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,160 say this are the transcript, this is what has happened. 418 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,040 And they also have the KYT, right? 419 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,560 You know if they reveal the KYT plus the KYT, that's not they 420 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,840 can actually reveal, but still you know, you have to, you know, 421 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,480 reveal some of the bits to actually give the fuller 422 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,200 picture. So this is where the IRS 423 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,200 question and you are mentioning really makes sense. 424 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,960 But you know you actually want to describe your your 425 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,320 transcripts to them. So it's like a committed real 426 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,000 mechanism. You have already committed to 427 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,560 all those things that need to do the reveal. 428 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,760 They have the whole transcript and as I was describing it has 429 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,080 some implications of doing that just like if you, if you and I 430 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,000 were the two parties in the transaction and you reveal a 431 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,280 mind, then they also know might as well, right. 432 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,240 So yeah, so this is the thing. So now your new address, your 433 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,960 derived address will be in the multi associated pool, right. 434 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,920 And in the multi associated pool what you have is that you take 435 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,080 so representing assets, right. And then you know normal things 436 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,040 like the normal Bitcoin E mechanism, right. 437 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,800 You know the thing new proof is that this hasn't been seen 438 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,480 before and then you can actually use this to do swaps and trades 439 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,760 of that's off, right. So we have two mechanisms in 440 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,080 Bantha. This is like AZ trade, which is 441 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,000 like a one to one map. OK, so sometimes I confuse the 442 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,600 two, so forgive me if I do. I've been in this for four years 443 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,320 so I occasionally confused 3 for the woods. 444 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,680 So if I use the wrong words for the wrong things, don't shoot 445 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,360 me. It's just that my head is so 446 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:25,560 muddled in my head. There are so many things and 447 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,480 things crosswise every now and then. 448 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,800 So in a meta level, there's this possibility that you and I, 449 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,680 which is Anish in my head, we could actually swap to as it's 450 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,120 assuming we know you know we have we're happy with the KYC. 451 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,960 We have all this. OK, so this is construct I need 452 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,680 to describe. The construct is like in banter, 453 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,320 there's this construct called a zone manager. 454 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,720 A zone manager actually looks after a zone. 455 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,200 A zone is a place where you the KYC is valid, right? 456 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,800 And the the zone manager kind of has to agree to the KYC 457 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,160 provider. OK, this is a KYC requirement. 458 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,080 I have. You do the KYC and if this is 459 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800 valid, I will allow this participants to get into the 460 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,480 zone, right. But what happens is then between 461 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,520 you and me or we somehow figured out like we wanted WhatsApp, we 462 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,480 can do WhatsApp, we can do a private swap, right. 463 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,400 So, you know both of us can actually swap things and nobody 464 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,400 will be able to figure out what we actually found. 465 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,800 But if you go and then provide IRS transcript, IRS knows for 466 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,200 sure what is done, right. So in that sense you have the 467 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,680 compliance, you have the transcript, you can actually 468 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,120 prove that you actually did a legitimate transaction and we're 469 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,280 just like a swap between I said A to I said B, right. 470 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,880 So this is one way and then this is extended using an adapter. 471 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,280 So the adapter is like I think of it like a bridging mechanism, 472 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,480 right. One side of the bridge sits on 473 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,480 pad the protocol so there's some multi issued a pool and so all 474 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,800 the access are represented in the in the and the adapter then 475 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,280 you know does this backwards into say a normal DFAT protocol, 476 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,680 right. And when the normal DFAT 477 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,880 protocol looks it's it's it's interacting with the smart 478 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,560 contractor and the back end of this backbone practice, the 479 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,600 assets in the pool and for the UNI strap what it looks like 480 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,640 it's OK. This is the address from which 481 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,280 this transaction is happening and this transaction is within 482 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,160 the multi associated pool. Does that make sense? 483 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,680 So the imagination I get is imagine like the entire Polygon 484 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,600 ecosystem. Maybe imagine it as a large, 485 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,600 large city first, right. So imagine it does like San 486 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,880 Francisco, it's it's a, it's a, it's a large city and there are 487 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,920 different neighborhoods in there and I OK, one of those 488 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,440 neighborhoods is like kind of like the Panther multi asset 489 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,920 shielded pool in there. And then this Panther multi 490 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,000 Asset shielded pool is like further divided into a smaller 491 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,080 school. School areas let's say like and 492 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,560 and and then you're calling these things the smaller things 493 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,920 zone. So this Polygon is this city. 494 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,000 Oh, no. No, no, no, no. 495 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,240 OK, so the zone is like top post, right? 496 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,520 You can actually think of a school district as a zone, 497 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,680 right? And you have like a smaller 498 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,040 subunits as like a smaller mass. You can have multiple maps here, 499 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,360 right? And like, you can actually have, 500 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:17,800 like, I mean, in theory you can have one mass, but you can have 501 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,040 as many mass as you want, right? But the question here is like, 502 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,320 you know how big a mass need to be so it can provide the 503 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,040 ineffective effective privacy set. 504 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,240 So there's a trade off between I would say 3 way trade. 505 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,320 Off what? What is meant by a mast? 506 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,440 Multi asset shielded pool. Multi asset shielded pool. 507 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:44,320 So it's like if Polygon is kind of like San Francisco as a whole 508 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:50,320 and then it's like it's it's like Panther is kind of like a 509 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,760 big area of San Francisco. Yes, yes, yes. 510 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,160 Dark area of San Francisco. Dark area of San Francisco, 511 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,160 there are like multiple school districts in that dark area and 512 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,800 it's not the case that those multiple school districts are 513 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,800 all equal equivalent, right. So because because I have to 514 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800 choose what kind of school district I will use, what kind 515 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,920 of multi s s shield pool I will use and the better pool is the 516 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,320 one that many other users are using cause like my anonymity 517 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,960 set is kind of the set of users using that school district or 518 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,160 that a mess in that case. So the essence of it is kind of 519 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,720 I have an address in like San Francisco, the city in the 520 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,920 beginning and then like you have the school districts, these 521 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,760 maps. You have APO box kind of a map 522 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,440 which you get a new PO Box addressed into the school 523 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,120 district that will allow you to participate in that school 524 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,200 district, that school district and the overall the top the, 525 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,400 the, the, the what I call the zone manager which could be the 526 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,560 school district tour that is sets the rules for the games and 527 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,320 the thing which is like KYC has to be this, you need to meet 528 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,480 this and this and this. Then you're allowed to 529 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,240 participate within that and if you are in there you can have 530 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,480 adapters. So if the school district test, 531 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,640 you know what do I call relationships with other school 532 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,960 districts in other places? You are allowed to, meaning I'm 533 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,720 just describing A defect protocol as a school district, 534 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,680 right. So you could actually do that 535 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,920 and you can interact with them. Right. 536 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,520 So it's like the that school district or that multi asset 537 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,080 shielded pool has some kind of administrator that's that's 538 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,560 able. To a top level administrator A. 539 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,880 Top level administrator that is able to set rules for for that 540 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,000 shielded pool and that rule can include that if anyone wants 541 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,280 that address to be generated in this pool then they have to pass 542 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:54,640 KYC across these four O 5 either one of these four O 5 providers 543 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,240 and they could be multiple. Very minimum one, right? 544 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640 Like very minimum one. They can have as many as they 545 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,880 want, but you know, constraints of creating circuits and things 546 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,360 like that set aside mean you're absolutely right. 547 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,320 So, so then I choose kind of like AI did the district or a 548 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,960 mass. And I look at, OK, they accept 549 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,880 KY, CS from like these five providers. 550 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,200 Currently there's only one, but that's because the protocol is 551 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,920 young. And then I send this KYC 552 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,080 information to this provider and then this provider. 553 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,280 That's a separate transaction and and like banter or you know 554 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,640 in the class of all banter protocol shouldn't actually care 555 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,520 about this. And just that we there are no 556 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,640 real web 3 service providers that could provide you know 557 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,480 independently provide you with the, you know KYC. 558 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,920 The challenge is 2 part, not just technology but the 559 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,000 regulation, right, because of the, you know GDPR and other 560 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,640 things. The data ownership is a bit of a 561 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,880 problem. So you actually, we need to get 562 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,320 the user to go to the service provider and that KYC, right. 563 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,000 And this is one of the challenges we have. 564 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,760 We can't actually have the whole thing internal here. 565 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,880 Like we can't run in a normal world. 566 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,000 If you wear a bag, you just get, you know somebody like on a 567 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,520 fighter to actually provide you with the service. 568 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,640 You wrap all those things, you do all those things in one 569 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,720 house, right? We have the normal GDPR thing, 570 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,480 but because we have AD 5 protocol which is decentralized 571 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,920 and we we have to do all of this, we can't do things in a 572 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520 normal way. This is like doing things in 573 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,800 somewhat awkward ways. So you know, we can meet or is 574 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,360 dancing around to making sure that, you know, it's like, you 575 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,960 know, the kids play the game where they hop around. 576 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,480 So the same thing we have to hop around to make sure that we meet 577 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,880 all the requirements that all the regulators have. 578 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:50,320 So I I I submitted my KYC and presumably the KYC provider is 579 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,320 providing me some kind of certificate it. 580 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,400 Gives you a signature. It's just an ECDSA signature on 581 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,800 on a lipid. Yeah, I mean, you get the 582 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,080 signature back saying it's valid, right? 583 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,720 That's literally what it is. This this account passed KYCKYC 584 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,720 with me. That's all. 585 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,080 None of the information is revealed like OK, the 586 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,880 information lies with the KYC provider in their servers or in 587 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,000 their clouding. So the transcript of that thing 588 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,120 is in the easiest way of describing. 589 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,080 It's like encrypted with their public key and you know it's 590 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,080 there. So at any point in time, say for 591 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,600 example IRS really gets interested that's the KYC 592 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,560 provider have a word with them, you know they they can provide 593 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,880 you with all the details. Well, you know, the rest of the 594 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,800 mechanism is normal. Like you know, if you think 595 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,280 about the normal bank, you know typically once you know the the 596 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,400 end user's name and everything is available, you know the 597 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,880 regulatory authority will go directly to Uri or who are the 598 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,000 end user is because they can send a subpoena to the user, 599 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,720 right. And they can send it to both 600 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,240 places. But the user is the easiest, 601 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,560 let's send it to them. We don't have big lawyers. 602 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,480 Banks will have big lawyers. So they typically don't go after 603 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,280 the banks, they go after the people. 604 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,920 That's easier to you know, you know what I'm saying? 605 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,639 So, so then this mass administrator, essentially they 606 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,280 have set up. The we shouldn't call them the 607 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,280 mass administrator, right? Like a protocol zone 608 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,040 administrator because like there could be multiple. 609 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,159 So you know what I'm saying this there could be multiples of as 610 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,800 been there but the the top level the zone manager what they do is 611 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,199 like exactly what they like describe they make this list. 612 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,280 They make an arbitrary rule like what he just described. 613 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,679 They could have at least a list of 1K by C provider or they can 614 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,760 have as many as they want to and they describe what their 615 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,600 requirement is right. And they could say, you know if 616 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,360 you were able to prove this and this and this, we will allow you 617 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,880 to and this will be the list of assets that will be listed in 618 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,000 this zone, right. They might say. 619 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,440 They might not list the cash or money or whatever up to them, 620 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,320 not to us. Then I kind of like get a 621 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,600 shielded address of some kind in that in that zone. 622 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,680 Yeah. And then I might be able to do 2 623 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,120 things. If I'm wanting to do things that 624 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,200 are in the zone, it says. So another user has a shielded 625 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,840 asset in that same zone. Then then I could do like a 626 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,440 shielded swap with that user. So Anish is in. 627 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,000 This like between you and me. Like imagine that we were 628 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,400 describing like Anish and Maher, both FSR, KYC. 629 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,880 We are both on the same zone or by same zone manager. 630 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,880 Imagine Sebastian to be the sole. 631 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,080 OK, so we both are here. We can trade between ourselves 632 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,720 like that is definitely one, yes. 633 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,920 And on the other side, if I want to interact with a different 634 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,000 system, now that different system is New York. 635 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,960 That's kind of, I don't know, Uniswap running on Polygon. 636 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,360 Then to do that different system, I just appeared as a 637 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,840 normal Polygon address of some kind and I can commit money or I 638 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,280 can remove money. I can do whatever I could do in 639 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,480 New York because I am appearing as a normal. 640 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,560 Address. So just just to be very clear. 641 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,160 So there's a couple of nuances we need to be very sure of. 642 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,120 OK. So as a zone manager, you might 643 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,440 or might not allow Interzone interactions, right. 644 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,160 So because the risk is more for zone manager, there might be 645 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,920 agreements between INDISM. So imagine Seb was when Adrian 646 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,800 was our one zone manager. So they have an agreement, they 647 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,920 allow and they have equivalency in compliance. 648 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,960 Then they could allow us to like I could be in Sebastian's zone 649 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,120 and you and Adrian zone, we can actually have this transfer and 650 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,400 we could be fine. And the thing that I think 651 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,840 you're kind of referring to is an external one, right. 652 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,960 The external one is like we don't have a lot of control over 653 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,840 it. We are assuming that you know 654 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,760 these other things and we can only prove our innocence, right? 655 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:52,880 The proof of innocence is our side. 656 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,760 We can't prove innocence on their side because we don't 657 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,520 know. The assumption here is like they 658 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,560 look at how the regulator looks at the other side. 659 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,680 The regulator has a view of the other side. 660 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,640 I mean the question here is being asked is what is it that 661 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,120 you have been doing? And we can definitely answer 662 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,400 what we have been doing, the fullest required legal 663 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,800 requirement in that sense. That doesn't make sense. 664 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,040 Kind of. So on a high level. 665 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,920 On a high level, it's like if there's a zone a user can come, 666 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,720 they can comply with the rules for entering the zone, and they 667 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,480 entered the zone. They got some assets on a 668 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,560 shielded address and they could use their shielded address to do 669 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,920 some kind of more public transaction on the UNISOP 670 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,440 running on Polygon. Your strategy? 671 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,920 Absolutely, absolutely. The zone of course cannot 672 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,760 provide any kind of guarantee that that thing happening on the 673 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,960 public transaction met certain rules of the of the land. 674 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,560 It might break certain rules of the land and and of course the 675 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,400 zone cannot provide that guarantee. 676 00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,920 Yeah, absolutely. But if the if the. 677 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,000 Zone if the transaction happens between two addresses inside the 678 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,680 zone itself. For those, the zone manager can 679 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,320 provide probably greater guarantees. 680 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,720 Yeah. So the, the, the guarantee is 681 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,960 cryptographic guarantee, right? Like all of this is 682 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,040 cryptographic guarantees. There are no other guarantees of 683 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,000 any kind. There's like no, no, trust me 684 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,280 Bro, no. This is all cryptographic 685 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,800 guarantees. Everything that's happening, you 686 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,040 have cryptographic security margin and all our cryptographic 687 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,720 security, right. Like you know previously said 688 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:35,400 this cryptographically bounded. Your security margin is 689 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,040 cryptographically bounded. Yeah, all of those things. 690 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,480 So it's like there is no such thing as like we are doing 691 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,040 magic. Trust me bro, No, everything we 692 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,080 are doing clearly articulated photographically. 693 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,800 Provided the proof is visible to you, you as a user can actually 694 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,640 validate it and you'd be happy with it, right? 695 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,560 Right. So so in this whole journey 696 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,560 where I started with a normal Polygon address I moved into a a 697 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:10,360 multi ash zone shield zone and then I I got an address and then 698 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:16,600 I did something on the uniswap I got a different asset that was 699 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,160 also that also is now part of the shielded zone. 700 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,920 And then at some point I unshielded and I went back to my 701 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,960 to my normal address. And in this whole flow there is 702 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,800 an unlinkability. The transaction that happened on 703 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:37,360 Uniswap on Polygon and my original original address, that 704 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,440 transaction cannot be made down. Those two. 705 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,920 Those two things cannot be linked by anyone that is not the 706 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,440 KYC provider and not the zone administrator. 707 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,880 Yeah, yeah. And they can't do anything in 708 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,600 that sense. So it's like, if everybody 709 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,080 colludes, right, then things will be possible. 710 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,800 The person who could actually reveal everything is you. 711 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,640 You can actually reveal things, right? 712 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,200 If you, as may have, want to reveal things, you can. 713 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,160 But you know otherwise because of the way we do KYT, if KYT in 714 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,800 a provider has some transactional detail, you can 715 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,600 correlate all those things. But that's like you know, you 716 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,080 need to go around the world, collect all the data, put all 717 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,280 those things together. Yes, in a world there is no such 718 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,400 thing as perfect privacy transactional traffic analysis 719 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,600 implies people can, people can actually put things in the 720 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,760 window. So cryptographically speaking, 721 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,360 we try our level best. It's like a classic example I 722 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,480 give if there's a room and there's a door and you can have 723 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,080 a 0 Ross proof that I have the ability to leave the room. 724 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,040 Right. If it's just me, that's not 725 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,400 privacy, right? There's 1000 people. 726 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,240 Yeah. One in thousand chance that they 727 00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:48,640 can guess who it is. The same applies to, you know 728 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,880 Panther. If the privacy set is 1000 of 729 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,280 privacy that is 10,000. It gives us a trade off. 730 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,600 Right. And I always describe to people 731 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,000 this trade off. So you know if you were to think 732 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:03,840 about a circle and a square, a circle base of this and a square 733 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,960 that fits in the area of the square is always bigger than the 734 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,240 circle, right? So when you have a curve and you 735 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:11,240 straighten it out in the area will come. 736 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,120 So effectively what happens is like when you do transactions, 737 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,600 you will be forced to do batching because you have to do 738 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,880 batching to provide privacy. That implies, you know, imagine 739 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,120 an AMM you you have X&Y is a constant, you have a divided by 740 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,080 DX right? Is that curve of the thing, it 741 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,560 gets straightened out a bit, right. 742 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,320 That means that you know that there's a small loss that's 743 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,600 happening because the incident price is not being available to 744 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,920 everybody, right. So this is the price we have to 745 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,080 pay for providing privacy. So in a perfect world, unless 746 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,080 your strategy has better alpha than this difference in curves 747 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,440 plus the gas charges or charges of doing whatever it is. 748 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,200 But that's the challenge we will always have. 749 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,600 You know, there is definitely that thing that that's why we 750 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,320 actually have all the, you know, dark pools and the way they're 751 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,000 willing to spend so much money to get data centers right next 752 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,680 to wherever the exchange is and everybody gets the cabling. 753 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,200 You know, I mean literally one should read the book on dark 754 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,960 polls and that that will give you the another tip. 755 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,080 So there's a lot of money being made, right. 756 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,400 And so you know my expectation again, I haven't really tested 757 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,040 this thesis out because I don't have like there is no panda that 758 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,360 exists right now as you rightly pointed out, which you could 759 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,880 actually do exactly what panda does. 760 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,240 Like we have provided all the tooling that one requires to do 761 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:35,520 compliance right to best of our abilities other than just this 762 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,720 committee right committee is hard thing to implement because 763 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:42,200 in a decent life protocol it's almost impossible to agree to a 764 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,320 committee, get the committee to, you know do all the crap right, 765 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,120 but everything else has been done. 766 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,320 Now The thing is like you could easily do all these things and 767 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,200 the assumption on the other side is that there's a value that 768 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,040 trade 5 CS and dark pool that they will actually see in doing 769 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,600 transactions and deploying strategies into D5, right. 770 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,600 I mean I think of it as like a multi legged strategies right. 771 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:07,920 I'm sure you've seen a whole bunch of them right. 772 00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,960 And here it's like there is a good amount of alpha to be made 773 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,280 in multi legged strategies, right. 774 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,280 And you know imagine band that they deployed in multiple AVN 775 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,680 compatible ones. You can actually go across as if 776 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,880 in going back to your zone manager question, the zone 777 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,000 managers agree that this transactions are allowed and you 778 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,800 get care by C in all the different ones whichever you 779 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,240 decide and then you can do all of this across all the zones and 780 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,480 make your money. I mean there's nothing stopping 781 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,720 you. I mean, yes there is a small 782 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:40,320 chance that you have to pay the gas fees for doing all these 783 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,240 things plus any protocol fees that is incurred you have to 784 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:46,280 pay. But otherwise whatever. 785 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,480 You know, the thing I I normally say to every album, you know 786 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,840 founder is like look what π that provides you is the ability for 787 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,360 you to do whatever you want to do in a private sense and you 788 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:05,200 keep 9099 + X of all the value that you create. 789 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,200 What Panther or similar protocols will do, it's like 790 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,280 they charge you because you can't do it for free. 791 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,880 Somebody has to pay for having to run all these things, right? 792 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,080 So that need be fee need to be paid, but otherwise all the 793 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:24,080 alpha everybody creates accrued on the L1 and L1 and L2's are 794 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,600 the biggest winners and the users are the biggest winners. 795 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:33,040 And we as a protocol provider, we we just, you know, I should 796 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,760 probably say to a large extent this has been a very much a 797 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,640 passion project. So I conceptually understand the 798 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,880 kind of party that that will be a KYC provider. 799 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,320 This is a party that has probably some kind of automated 800 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,120 systems where you upload a driving license and they're able 801 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,040 to verify that it's genuine or not. 802 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,320 They they are specialising in technology like that they they 803 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,680 make good KYC providers. I I don't understand what kind 804 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,640 of party in the real world is going to be this zone 805 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,560 administrator. Is it like a Chad Fi 806 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:07,960 institution? We are looking at it. 807 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,720 Could be somebody who has a in a virtual as a service provider 808 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,320 license, right? So you know, day, day one we are 809 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,840 probably going to use a Dow as a initial zone manager. 810 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,400 But in a in a world that we have a protocol being successful, 811 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,680 anybody who actually wants to do something startled between the 812 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,280 two worlds who has a license to do this. 813 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,560 So the the reason I say this is like it's a regulatory issue, 814 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,680 right. We could just have this thing 815 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,320 running on its own headless in that sense. 816 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,680 But because of the wave, you actually want to have this 817 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,720 ability for the regulators to talk to everybody. 818 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,840 There needs to be somebody responsible, right. 819 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,560 So you need to have to have somebody who they could go to 820 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,920 and ask, OK, who are all the people who could actually 821 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,880 provide KYC and why, What was your criteria? 822 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,200 And then you have to provide them with, OK. 823 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,520 So when they have a interaction with the regulators, regulators 824 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,520 say, OK, if you want to do this, these are the KYC providers. 825 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,840 They go, yeah, so you, the regulator asked me to do this 826 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,760 and here is, you know, the certificate that you know or 827 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,520 this letter of intro. What are that? 828 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,120 Is that the interaction between the two parties so that the 829 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,080 parties are very clear as to what the regulator requirement 830 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,800 was and how it was agreed and how things were done. 831 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,480 So, you know, otherwise what will happen is because we have 832 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,120 to deal with the so-called traditional finance world, we 833 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,640 need to have some sort of an equivalence. 834 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,480 So you know, this is like a possible equivalence mechanism. 835 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,240 Still, there's a bit of lack of clarity in terms of who exactly 836 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,560 would be that because we don't know, like we are talking to 837 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,880 like a bunch of people. There have been different levels 838 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,520 of interest. You know, in an ideal world, as 839 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,480 somebody who really understands this, if they come back, come 840 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,920 come up to us, that'll be pretty awesome because like, you know, 841 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,800 we build everything, right? As I was saying, he, like, my 842 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,120 expertise is very much for search and building, right? 843 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,520 I'm good at thinking about protocols and getting it, 844 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,400 putting together A-Team, designing A protocol, getting it 845 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,280 to a place where you can run. I am not a marketing guy. 846 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,680 I am not a BDI but that's my Co founder, right. 847 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,040 So you know whether the two of us, that's how it is. 848 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,160 So I can only say to you that you know we will definitely take 849 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,880 the host to the water, whether the host has got to drink or 850 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,440 not. Is it that left to the host? 851 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,040 Cool. So so how does it work? 852 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,000 So when I when I go from a normal address to a shielded 853 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:42,480 address, what's the underlying technological engine that's 854 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,200 that's making it? Very simple. 855 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,800 It's a very simple mechanism. You know, it's a first of the 856 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,480 five circuits, there's a a, you know, a map that exists from 857 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,560 your address to a new address, right. 858 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,160 So you could actually prove that this is the address that you you 859 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,120 have and that's it, that's that's how you get mapped to the 860 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,480 new address. So when you come back from the 861 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,720 KYC provider, then there's this as it allows mechanism that 862 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,840 actually maps you from your first set of addresses to the 863 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,400 new address, right. And that's the first set 864 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,280 circuits that are there and there are like a a few trees 865 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,920 that we have like a there's a static tree, then a bus, a taxi 866 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,160 and the other car with the name of the tree. 867 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:23,320 There are 4 trees that are there. 868 00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:27,800 So essentially you know all the data for a zone is like in the 869 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,120 static tree plus the zone manager contains all the things. 870 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,480 So effectively edit any data that need to be there is all 871 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,240 updated there and all the rest of it get updated into trees and 872 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,480 that's it. So essentially all of this are 873 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,280 kind of Michael Trees and Lucid because of the UTXO thing. 874 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,480 These are All My countries, right? 875 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,680 So you have an address that's been created. 876 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:53,240 So that will map to a UTXO in a My country that says and there's 877 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:57,720 a map between the two that's kind of, you know, shielded by 878 00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:59,720 the normal 0 knowledge mechanism, right. 879 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,480 So you can actually, if you sort of decide you want you want to, 880 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,720 really can. But you know, nobody else can 881 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:11,200 actually do that, right? That's cool. 882 00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:14,440 That's cool. So, so Aneesh, you have a 883 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,800 version one main net launch coming in the next couple of 884 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,160 months, right? Yeah, yeah. 885 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,240 I mean, like I would say, it's more 6 to 8 weeks. 886 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,200 OK. So I'll give you a Full 887 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,760 disclosure. We have our audit startup with 888 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:33,520 Paradise. I think it's two weeks now, a 889 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,760 week or two. I mean, I'm traveling, so I'm 890 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,640 pretty bad. Don't hold me responsible for 891 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,640 the sleeping days. So when that's complete, 892 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,400 assuming there are no major bugs we are very close to, you know, 893 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,800 there are two, three more faces at best that need to be released 894 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,720 so we can actually release it to the main net. 895 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,080 And and what will be part of this first main net? 896 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,320 OK, so let me look at my notes. So I'm going to look at my notes 897 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,200 and tell you what's there. So you know, stage one is the Z 898 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,800 account registration. So this is the first set that 899 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,760 you were describing, right? Then there's this. 900 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,960 OK, there is some I should probably describe. 901 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,120 That is the privacy staking mechanism, which I cannot 902 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,440 mention in passing, but it's a mechanism by which you actually 903 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,160 reward people for providing privacy, right? 904 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,560 And they have this construct which is like AZZKP, just like 905 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,720 an internal thing to provide privacy. 906 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:34,360 Otherwise, there's this linking that is possible. 907 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,600 So that is also in V. One, so I'm I'm just imagining 908 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,520 it as accounts that are creating transactional activity on the 909 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:47,680 zone just so that genuine economic activity can be masked 910 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,000 inside that kind of fake transactional activity happening 911 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,360 in that zone? Yeah, I mean it could be you're 912 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,840 doing transactions which are real transactions, but you need 913 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,200 to have interrupt transactions, right? 914 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,200 It doesn't have to be fake in that sense. 915 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,120 There is no need to do fakes, right? 916 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,600 You just need to do transactions. 917 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,040 If you do real transactions, you will better, right? 918 00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:07,200 So the overall privacy set increases. 919 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,000 So imagine there's 1000 people and thousand people are 920 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,080 deploying various things on Uniswap. 921 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,440 You have a privacy set of 1000 straight up, right? 922 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,480 That's what it is. And all of you will get your 923 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,080 rewards from doing all these things. 924 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:23,600 And then there's a map between this. 925 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,320 So this is part of the View 1 functionality, then a shielding, 926 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,880 so essentially what we were describing. 927 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:36,480 Then there are transfers between interval to mass, so between you 928 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,680 know you and I in that sense. Then that is like a that is the 929 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,080 accounts directory service so we can actually get some idea of 930 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,360 where things are. Then intra mass transfers and 931 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,920 messages, OK, so you could transfer between two mass. 932 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,880 I remember we were talking about New York and San Francisco going 933 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,080 back. As part of one of these zones, 934 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,040 with one administrator, Anish being another zone, another 935 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,520 administrator being able to exchange assets across zones 936 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,440 provided the rules of the two zones match in some way. 937 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:16,160 Absolutely, yes. And then it's like we call it a 938 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,760 bundler. So you know, when the 939 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,920 transaction happened, somebody needs to put all these things 940 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,240 together. That's, you know, we could call 941 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,000 it a miner or a bundler. So that's one of the things that 942 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,320 we have built and that I told you about like you know, 943 00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,720 different kind of trees that are there for trees. 944 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,480 So there's a tree called taxi tree, so that then the bus tree 945 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,720 and then a Cairo by the a fairy tree, OK. 946 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,720 And then there's a last tree, a car by the name of the tree. 947 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:48,600 Then withdrawals, basic disclosures and Z account 948 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,480 renewal, right. So withdrawals is like you want 949 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,400 to withdraw something. You know, basic disclosure is 950 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,320 you do the transaction you want to reveal as Z account renewal 951 00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,680 is like KYC. You remember our conversation 952 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:05,840 about KYC, We have KYCFE Middle. They are not permanent, right? 953 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:12,920 So you have to renew, OK. So then we have AD 5 swap 954 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,800 essentially there's an adapter to you, you know a protocol, 955 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,520 that's AD 5 protocol. So we can do that. 956 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,880 So there's something we call advanced disclosures. 957 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:25,720 So it's like it's kind of hard to describe it in simple terms, 958 00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:29,640 but essentially you have ways by which you can reveal bits of 959 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,240 things, right. So disclosure is like a computer 960 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:34,440 real mechanism. Advanced disclosure is like you 961 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,720 want to reveal some bits of it, right, and increasing the number 962 00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:41,240 of assets that need to be there. So the number of assets that are 963 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,240 there is kind of limited. So we are kind of you know, 964 00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:49,080 adding more and more assets. So last of the bits is what we 965 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,120 call an involuntary disclosure. So this is if it's required 966 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,760 that, you know, if authorities come in and all the parties, you 967 00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,560 know, agree to do what they need to do, then they can actually 968 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:05,240 construct certain pieces. And then this Z trade, which is 969 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,960 what I was describing between the two of us and then migration 970 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:15,360 from .5 to one that is, yeah, I think that's pretty much, I 971 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,760 think I've described all of it. Actually, there's a huge. 972 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,120 There's a huge list list of features. 973 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,920 There's a huge list of features. Yeah, we've been working very 974 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,560 hard. It's been working very hard. 975 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,400 So I should give my team the credit, right? 976 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:34,280 Like I talk nonsense to them, get byports, draw things, They 977 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,480 actually go come back, you know, look at it and come back to me. 978 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,600 And yeah, I'm very lucky to have a very good team. 979 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,200 Yeah, of course. Like the flip side of it is 980 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,000 because it's a huge list of features. 981 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,880 There would be like unexpected behaviors where people will end 982 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,320 up leaking information that they thought was safe and things like 983 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:53,880 that. It is possible. 984 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,560 We will have to, yeah. It is very possible. 985 00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,680 We might find things, yeah. Oh, yeah. 986 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,520 We didn't think people could do this. 987 00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:02,920 Wow. Yeah, that's very possible. 988 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,040 But you know, you're optimistic. Yeah, so it's like important to 989 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,520 start small, important for users to to start with small amounts 990 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,720 and test, test on the. System, absolutely. 991 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,320 The overall the protocol is kind of limited to 1000 bucks. 992 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,080 So you know that that's a whole idea. 993 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,360 The idea is like, you know, minimal KYC, minimal amount of 994 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,280 transactions. So you could actually get used. 995 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,280 People can get used to Panther, and then when Panther is much 996 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,360 more known to people and people are used to the behavior they 997 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,200 can, then the the world is the oyster. 998 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,880 They can build their strategies and deploy it and go to whatever 999 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,400 they want. I am actually curious. 1000 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,680 There's an element to such a protocol, which is there's a 1001 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,800 massive element, which is OK how do you even conceive of and 1002 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,320 like, build this thing which you've solved? 1003 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,560 But the other problematic part is distribution, getting people 1004 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,880 to actually use it, which is a very different problem. 1005 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:04,560 So are there any breakthroughs or successes in that dimension, 1006 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,560 like X or Y parties committing to use Panther in a certain way? 1007 00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:15,520 So yeah, I mean, I have to admit, like, you know, I've been 1008 00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,720 mostly the personal responsible for the first part, right? 1009 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,720 I'm the Co founder, CT and the chief scientist who's been 1010 00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:26,000 thinking about the problem and I've actually delegated the BD 1011 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,880 and we work together. But in the larger sense, you 1012 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:33,420 know, the conversations I had either one of us and my Co 1013 00:56:33,420 --> 00:56:35,480 founder. So there have been a bunch of 1014 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,960 conversations that's been there. We have lots of interest from 1015 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,200 various parties. We are in conversation with 1016 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,680 Coinbase and other people. So I don't know, like you know, 1017 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,880 it's between, you know, talking and signing the contract, right. 1018 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,360 So he's kept. So definitely there are multiple 1019 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,080 parties that we've been talking to. 1020 00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:01,160 You know I can't name names, but definitely there are three, at 1021 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,520 least more than five people that we've been talking to like who 1022 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,200 have a possible, you know kind of institutional kind of 1023 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,960 somewhere in the spectrum, right. 1024 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,840 So that's the that's the thinking. 1025 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,920 The thinking is like what are these people who are institution 1026 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,840 in what? I wouldn't call it institutional 1027 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,760 because institutional would require a lot more than Panther 1028 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,120 could actually do right now, right. 1029 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,760 So the idea it is like get Panther. 1030 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:30,400 Panther has been aimed at this space in the market where you 1031 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,840 know retail uses all the way up to say you know, minimal family 1032 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,120 offices who have minimal regulator requirements can 1033 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,800 actually go use. That's where we are aiming it. 1034 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,520 But if you want to go beyond where we go to like traditional, 1035 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,280 you know, hardcore set of people that would require a lot more 1036 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:48,960 heavy lifting, right? Like you know, all the 1037 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,320 integrations and everything, which I think it will take a 1038 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,760 while. But you know, the idea here is 1039 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,680 getting people who are from standard retail investors to 1040 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,440 people who run family offices with minimal regulator 1041 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,120 requirement like KYCKYT tax returns. 1042 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,360 That's the kind of thing that you are required to, you know 1043 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,440 fulfil that's the idea getting them on boarded. 1044 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,080 I mean we are also giving people incentives, right, like to you 1045 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,960 know play with the protocol. So the initial plan is to, you 1046 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,720 know pretty much the largest chunk of the protocol, you know 1047 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,680 tokens were allocated out to give everybody incentives, 1048 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,120 right. So the idea here is like if the 1049 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,520 protocol succeeds, everybody who participates succeeds. 1050 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:38,200 So that you know assumption here is like A there is some need for 1051 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,920 users to average or in the street who understands what 1052 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,160 privacy is and has some strategies that they want to 1053 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,400 deploy. Would like to use a protocol 1054 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,520 like that though. And B, given the regulatory you 1055 00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:57,880 know landscape that the utility function of regulation is quite 1056 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,960 high and people want to have you know things in the right manner, 1057 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:06,040 right. And that's B&C is that given 1058 00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:10,200 there is you know, some slight expenses that effectively you 1059 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,160 have to pay for this gas fees and all the things, right, 1060 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,600 there'll be a fee. And the assumption here is like 1061 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,400 the alpha that people have is bigger than the fee. 1062 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,680 So it really makes economic sense for them to actually do 1063 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,560 this and the friction is with an acceptable bounce. 1064 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,480 These are all assumptions that we're making. 1065 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:31,040 So, Anish, is it correct to understand that the fee is there 1066 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,720 because, OK, the underneath Polygon is charging something, 1067 00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:40,040 But in a sense because in order to provide privacy, you have to 1068 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,680 incentivize people to do transactions that might 1069 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,080 sometimes be fake, Somebody needs to pay for those 1070 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,800 transactions to happen, which reflects as a fee on the genuine 1071 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:51,800 users of the Panther protocol, right? 1072 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,360 Yes, absolutely. You're absolutely right. 1073 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,040 Yes, yes, spot on. Thank you. 1074 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,320 You're saying A? Fee for cover traffic in a sense 1075 00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,080 you, you, you. Yes, absolutely. 1076 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,680 That's that's, yeah, that's that's one way to think about it 1077 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:06,280 like you know, there has to be a fee that allows the ecosystem to 1078 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:07,760 have a process to some gate, right? 1079 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,120 So otherwise it would be like a, you know, you know, it's a 1080 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,440 tragedy of Commons. So we have a problem with 1081 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,640 tragedy of Commons. So that's why we have a fee 1082 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,760 structure. The fee structure would allow, 1083 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:23,120 you know, a fee to be, you know, levied on the users and give it 1084 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,800 out to everybody who has the ecosystem to to flourish because 1085 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,200 you know, it's in the best interest of everybody in the 1086 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,840 ecosystem to provide, you know, privacy. 1087 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,280 You know, it'll be a lose lose if everybody through the status 1088 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,000 of revealing their set, right. So that's the whole idea. 1089 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,520 I mean it's OK if you reveal it to your, you know, regulators 1090 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,560 and you know your the, the, the construct here is like you did 1091 01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,400 your transactions end of the year, you all reveal everything 1092 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,800 to your regulators. Not a problem because like you 1093 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,440 know your strategy, you can have it for a whole year, right? 1094 01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,320 You run your strategy, you made your money, you submit your tax 1095 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,200 returns, everything is fine. Now, you can't go ahead and use 1096 01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,640 the same strategy tomorrow, because now you know IRS has 1097 01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,560 access to all of this and you know who knows what happens, 1098 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,680 right? So you have the Panther token 1099 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:17,360 and tell us about how these were distributed and and you know 1100 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,840 what is the tokenomics, how many tokens and. 1101 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,000 Oh gosh, that's a tricky bit. I can't have it on my head, but 1102 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,840 I will describe it to you. It's been a file since I last 1103 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,200 worked on it. As I was saying, like you know, 1104 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,400 as the person who, you know, puts a lot of this in one's 1105 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,800 head, a lot of the things skip my mind, right? 1106 01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,680 So you have buckets of problems as they go. 1107 01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,720 It's like a bucket of problems where you need to talk to the 1108 01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,680 regulators to make sure what you're doing meets whatever it 1109 01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,080 is, a bucket of problems where you look at CK and the progress 1110 01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,840 in CKA, bucket of problems in D5, where you look at D5 and 1111 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,200 solve that. And then there is other things 1112 01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,120 that you did in the past, right? So in terms of tokenomics, what 1113 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,240 has happened? It's like an early model was 1114 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:04,960 produced in 2020-2021. So we had like a bunch of 1115 01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,600 private sales. So you know, both me and my Co 1116 01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,280 founder put in our own money, a bunch of our friends put in 1117 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,240 money and then we had a public sale in 2021. 1118 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:19,200 And then, you know the tokens, there's this, a fraction between 1119 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:23,560 10 to 15% of it was allocated to the team at 10 to 15% was 1120 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:25,680 allocated to the foundation. So there's a foundation that 1121 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,120 actually is supposed to, you know, look after this. 1122 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:29,920 So the foundation is based on Gibraltar. 1123 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,960 Then this whole bunch of tokens has been allocated to, you know, 1124 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,440 providing rewards for, you know the thing that you were 1125 01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,560 describing, which is essentially provided for what she said. 1126 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,560 Then a small bit of tokens were allocated to actually help build 1127 01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,600 ecosystem. So this is kind of how it was 1128 01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,600 overall made out. It is a very long curve. 1129 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:56,160 It's like an emission curve first for like 144 months, if 1130 01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,480 I'm not mistaken 12 years. So we kind of thought about it 1131 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,920 for like you know, in my mind if a protocol would take that long, 1132 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,240 it's not the optimal place to be, right. 1133 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,720 My expectation is, you know, maybe a year, maybe two years 1134 01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:12,680 before that it should restate equilibrium. 1135 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,480 Equilibrium means there's enough of fees that's coming into the 1136 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,360 protocol that the protocol is still sustaining. 1137 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,840 So once that happens then the emission doesn't really matter, 1138 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:22,920 right? Like emission is just an 1139 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,080 emission, it doesn't really make any difference because you know 1140 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:27,880 fees in this thing makes it sustainable. 1141 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,800 So that's that's the thinking. Perfect. 1142 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:38,320 And I'm actually curious on what is the fee making model of 1143 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,000 Panther. So I'll I'll define my question 1144 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,960 better. So in your protocol you have the 1145 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,520 different parties, so the QIC provider, the zone 1146 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,560 administrator, the user that's shielding. 1147 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,640 Probably in the future the Regulator might itself have some 1148 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,880 kind of powers, except. If they decide right. 1149 01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,640 Yes, so and and of course it is pretty obvious that the user 1150 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:04,160 will pay for pay for privacy like the. 1151 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:09,320 So if if I'm on Polygon and I interact with Uniswap without 1152 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,440 Panther, my cost is X, but if I interact via Panther it is X + Y 1153 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,760 and that Y. You can imagine that Y is paid 1154 01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:23,000 for this cover traffic or this extra economic activity that 1155 01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,800 Panther protocol A. Whole bunch of things, right? 1156 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,960 It's to pay for the gas fees for running the ZK is also to 1157 01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,880 provide like you know things that are required also to 1158 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,360 provide cloud traffic or everything, right? 1159 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,840 Like you need to think of it like you know, one says they 1160 01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,040 need to be in my head sometimes I think of it like you need to 1161 01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,000 build upgrades. So if you are very successful 1162 01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,400 what you need to happen is that you should go to the Dow. 1163 01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,960 You know users of the Tao should be able to put a proposal just 1164 01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,680 like OK, you need to actually improve this from whatever this 1165 01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,120 is to that. So you know that this is all 1166 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,240 list of all things that you want to do. 1167 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:06,360 The cost of all of that needs to be under return overtime by fees 1168 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:11,160 like the otherwise it's kind of impossible like you can't have a 1169 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:15,920 loss making mechanism to be able to deliver services to everybody 1170 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,000 that that that's the whole idea. Right. 1171 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,320 So do you intend to charge the use like you intend to charge 1172 01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:26,120 the user, but do you also intend to charge the zone administrator 1173 01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,680 as well? Because in a sense that zone as 1174 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,080 zone administrator is a financial service provider. 1175 01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,480 And is there a business model to be made on their side too? 1176 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,440 We haven't really thought that through in that sense because 1177 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:46,200 like it is very possible that if if you were to create a a 1178 01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,680 particular zone which is like very internal to yourself and 1179 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,120 nothing to do with like an external protocols maybe right. 1180 01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,560 The assumption here is like you know this is public good, right 1181 01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,440 In my head this is public good, privacy for protocols is public 1182 01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,400 good, right? And we need to support it and we 1183 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,520 need to be as as in like users of the the ecosystem, right. 1184 01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:10,640 And that's the way we are thinking. 1185 01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,040 But if it's like separate and completely segregated and the 1186 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:19,640 zone manager runs this in a very different world, you know the 1187 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,760 value of public good to you and me as an average user to the 1188 01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,200 ecosystem is diminishing. Maybe there's a case to be had, 1189 01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,040 right. We haven't come across anybody 1190 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,880 who said this to us. We want to do something that you 1191 01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:32,240 would never be able to interact with. 1192 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:34,280 It is very possible they might do that right. 1193 01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,440 They might have some sort of what do we call a hybrid kind of 1194 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,000 chain that they use for something and they want to 1195 01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,600 deploy and and they want to, you know, be his own manager. 1196 01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:47,680 Well, yes, they can be in that instance, yes, that's a 1197 01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,200 different instance, right. So you know we are not you and 1198 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,680 me as an average. You know L1L2 user is not 1199 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,840 getting anything out of it. Cool. 1200 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,080 So we're coming to the end of the conversation. 1201 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,840 Aneesh, would you like to tell our listeners where they could 1202 01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:09,240 find more about the Panther protocol and what are 1203 01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,160 interesting resources? OK. 1204 01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:16,000 So the thing would be, you know, if you go to pad the protocol 1205 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,000 dot IOSETPS pad the protocol dot IO, we have a bunch of things 1206 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:21,800 there. Then there's docs dot pad, the 1207 01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,160 protocol that's there as well. Then there are a bunch of blocks 1208 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,240 there as well. So and there's playing a bunch 1209 01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,200 of talks that's been given mostly by me and members of our 1210 01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,480 team. So we've, you know, I should 1211 01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:36,400 have said we've actually done a bit more work in the ZK space as 1212 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,640 such. We've been you know active in 1213 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:43,000 the Z Price. We've actually published as it 1214 01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,520 gets snack scheme of our own. We have an IBC scheme of our 1215 01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:48,080 own. Like we've done a bunch of 1216 01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:49,800 things. So you know there are a couple 1217 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,800 of preprints that's available. So you know, if you feel free 1218 01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:58,320 to, you know, look around if you have any difficulty that that, 1219 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,480 there's our community manager. His name is Youris and if you 1220 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:07,520 want to get hold of him, it's Zouk 780 on Telegraph and he 1221 01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,280 would definitely respond to any of those things. 1222 01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,560 If everything fails then drop me an e-mail. 1223 01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,880 Anisha Panther protocol dot IO Oh, I'm zero knowledge on 1224 01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,600 Telegram. Cool. 1225 01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,680 Thanks Anish for the for the interview and I look forward to 1226 01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:24,680 try Panther most. Welcome. 1227 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:30,080 Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this 1228 01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:32,439 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1229 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,479 week. You can find and subscribe to 1230 01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:38,240 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 1231 01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,640 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 1232 01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,359 Alexa device, you can tell it. To listen to the latest episode 1233 01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:47,439 of the Epicenter podcast, go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a 1234 01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:49,120 full list of places where you can watch and listen. 1235 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,000 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 1236 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,359 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 1237 01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:57,680 If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast 1238 01:08:57,680 --> 01:08:59,319 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter. 1239 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:01,160 And please leave us a review on iTunes. 1240 01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,880 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 1241 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,080 them. So thanks so much and we look 1242 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:07,240 forward to being back next week.