1
00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:16,700
This episode of epicenter is 
brought to you by Microsoft 

2
00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:20,000
Azure and figure and deploy a 
Consortium blockchain Network in

3
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,500
just a few clicks with pre-built
configurations, and 

4
00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:25,600
enterprise-grade infrastructure,
spend less time on blocking 

5
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,700
scaffolding, and more time 
building your application to 

6
00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:32,600
learn more visit. 
It's a Ka, dot Ms, / epicenter. 

7
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,500
Black-and-white episodes episode
278 with Michael Jordan and 

8
00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:45,300
Daniel, mpeg-2 cool developers 
from the grid implementation of 

9
00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:49,300
the member window protocol. 
I am pitted against my name is 

10
00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:52,700
Sonia Agarwal and so like, 
Freddy Krueger mentioned, today 

11
00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:54,600
we have two of the developers 
from grin. 

12
00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:58,800
You know, I kind of greatness is
very interesting project that 

13
00:00:58,800 --> 00:00:59,900
has a very interesting 
background. 

14
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,700
Sorry that will get into today 
and you know, I kind of heard 

15
00:01:04,700 --> 00:01:08,200
about them very early on and 
there, you know, Creation with 

16
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,200
the member window protocol first
came out and kind of ignored it 

17
00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,400
for a while and then in the last
couple months like you know it 

18
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,000
just suddenly gained a lot of 
adoption. 

19
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,400
They launched very recently just
last month. 

20
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,500
In January. 
There were like I think probably

21
00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:25,800
the few projects who announced a
launch date and actually met 

22
00:01:25,900 --> 00:01:28,600
their launch deadlines which as 
you know, are very cool. 

23
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,600
And just you know one disclaimer
is I am currently actively 

24
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,400
mining grin so just a little bit
of a disclaimer there Lexa jump 

25
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,900
into the episode. 
Today on epicenter, we have on 

26
00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,800
with us Michael corner. 
And Daniel Lindbergh to of the 

27
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,900
core developers of the grin 
blockchain which implements this

28
00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:53,500
very interesting protocol called
member limbal. 

29
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,800
And so, you know, throughout the
epicenter, you know, we've 

30
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,100
briefly touched on member Wendel
here and there a lot of like, 

31
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,700
you know, we've had Adam back on
before and Gregg Maxwell and 

32
00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:05,900
they've like slightly touched on
member. 

33
00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:08,900
Wendel mentioned it in passing 
as like, you know, future 

34
00:02:08,900 --> 00:02:11,400
scaling options. 
But you know, we never really 

35
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,100
got a chance to Fully Deep dive 
in into member wimble. 

36
00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:18,600
And, you know, it's just very 
interesting protocol where like,

37
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,500
you know, offered a lot of a, 
you know, in a ways it's very 

38
00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:24,600
similar to like the Bitcoin 
protocol. 

39
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,900
Like use a lot of the same 
topography and a lot of like the

40
00:02:27,908 --> 00:02:32,100
same intellectual basis, but you
know brings a lot of these 

41
00:02:32,100 --> 00:02:35,000
really cool features and you 
know, it has this really cool 

42
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,800
backstory to it which you know 
will cover throughout the course

43
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,500
of this episode. 
But you know before we get start

44
00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:44,300
but you know, For we jump into 
that Michael and Daniel. 

45
00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:45,800
Thank you guys for both for 
being on. 

46
00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:49,800
And, you know, Michael, maybe 
you can introduce yourself how 

47
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,100
you got started into the space. 
Like, you know, before even 

48
00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:56,000
getting into grin and member 
lhendable and then, Daniel, 

49
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,600
maybe you could do the same. 
Yeah, sure. 

50
00:02:58,600 --> 00:02:59,800
Okay. 
Well, thanks for having us. 

51
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:02,200
What? 
Just starts on. 

52
00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,300
My name is Michael corner and I 
go by the name. 

53
00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:07,000
Do you boom? 
In green circles, that would be 

54
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,600
my handle and I've been working 
on grinning for. 

55
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,800
I'd say, we're coming up on 
nearly two years, maybe a little

56
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,400
less than two years at first, 
just as a part-time developer 

57
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,800
contributor. 
But from about say, February of 

58
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:27,400
last year, I've been working on 
Grand full-time using donations 

59
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,300
Get into Grand by the community.
So previous two grand. 

60
00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:35,700
I was I mean I have about 20 
years worth of kind of overall 

61
00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:39,400
software development experience,
ranging from Financial two 

62
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,300
games, to kind of do educational
software. 

63
00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:45,800
So so I think kind of a good 
broad background there 

64
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,500
immediately previous two to 
working on grin. 

65
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,000
I was doing kind of a lot of 
low-level cryptographic work on 

66
00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,400
in The Smart Card industry, 
which has a bit of crossover 

67
00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,000
with with cryptocurrency 
industry when it comes to 

68
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,300
Hardware wallets. 
And what have you? 

69
00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:03,700
So yeah. 
So that's basically my 

70
00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:05,400
background and why I'm here 
today? 

71
00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:08,100
Cool. 
And how did you get you know, 

72
00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:11,000
get started with Bitcoin is like
green sort of like the first 

73
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:12,900
Block Chain project you've 
worked on. 

74
00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:14,800
So it's the first one I've 
worked on properly. 

75
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,399
I mean I've been following 
Bitcoin and derivatives for 

76
00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:22,400
quite some time, but it was only
kind of recently as I got kind 

77
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,900
of more of a got better at 
applied photography through 

78
00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:29,100
previous jobs and then the more 
kind of cryptocurrencies tended 

79
00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:33,100
to appeal to me because I 
realize it kind of pushes all my

80
00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:36,400
buttons when it comes to 
interest and too technical in 

81
00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:38,600
arrest rather. 
I see. 

82
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,700
Very cool and Daniel. 
Yeah, what about you? 

83
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,400
How did you get involved? 
Sure. 

84
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,000
Thank you for having us. 
I work as a product manager for 

85
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,200
a gaming company. 
Been there for the past 12 years

86
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,000
lately. 
I've been doing a new product 

87
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,400
development and I heard about 
grin the first time I think year

88
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:04,100
ago and started reading up on 
it, starting to get kind of 

89
00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:06,500
watch the space a little bit, 
read the get it chats and so on,

90
00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:09,200
and then becoming Good morning 
involved. 

91
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,000
Mainly on kind of the project 
management side and the 

92
00:05:12,008 --> 00:05:16,000
governance side and I've been 
following the Box in space for a

93
00:05:16,008 --> 00:05:18,900
long time. 
This is my first project IE 

94
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,500
heard about Bitcoin in 2011 
dismissed it and then bought 

95
00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:28,300
bought a Bitcoin in 2013 and 
then kind of been monitoring the

96
00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:32,100
space but being quite 
comfortable watching from the 

97
00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:37,900
sidelines until I stumbled upon 
grid and its structure the way. 

98
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,900
Way the ethos of the project was
and you know, the approach taken

99
00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:47,300
in developing it made it really 
attractive and made it really 

100
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:49,900
easy to participate. 
So I just kind of got sucked in 

101
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,300
well that's interesting and so 
most of the great developers is 

102
00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:58,100
actually Anonymous, right. 
But you guys here on this show 

103
00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,400
using your clear names. 
You also go to conferences with 

104
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,100
your clear names. 
What, what made you decide to go

105
00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:09,100
public with your identities? 
I probably wouldn't say mostro 

106
00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:10,900
Anonymous. 
Now, I think there's only two 

107
00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,100
pretty who were chosen to remain
completely Anonymous and that 

108
00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:16,800
signal assist the founder. 
Which I'm sure, we'll talk about

109
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,800
it more later and then we have 
another developer Antioch 

110
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,800
parole, which in Harry Potter. 
Laura's is brother who also 

111
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,900
chooses to remain anonymous, but
the rest of us are fairly fairly

112
00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:28,500
out in the open. 
I mean, for my own perspective, 

113
00:06:28,900 --> 00:06:31,200
probably just didn't know any 
better when I first got involved

114
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,800
with the project so that's why 
I'm out in the open, but also 

115
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,000
because I'm taking funding from 
various sources. 

116
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,600
I Well, it's a bit. 
It's better to be out there. 

117
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,300
So people know who they're 
dealing with and, you know, I 

118
00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:45,800
can be have their own podcasts 
and promote written without 

119
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,100
having to worry about that or 
not, that invisibility cloak. 

120
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,800
Yeah, it's similar for my side. 
I mean, I know I was aware, they

121
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,000
were Anonymous developers on the
project, but the I just kind of 

122
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,200
did like a Trade-off in the 
sense that, you know, in order 

123
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,300
to be really Anonymous, you have
to put in a lot of effort to do 

124
00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:07,700
that and I just didn't really 
see that, you know, either you 

125
00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:11,100
do it, you know the full way or 
you don't do it at all, there's 

126
00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:14,000
no point in it because if 
somebody needs to want to, it's 

127
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,300
motivated enough to find your 
identity, they will and and I 

128
00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:19,700
just didn't really seem. 
I see a need for it. 

129
00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:24,100
I think a lot of the reason why 
we might feel comfortable being 

130
00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,600
out in with clear names is also 
because the founder of nostris 

131
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,100
is anonymous, it Been a bit 
different if it wasn't for that.

132
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,800
So you mean like over time some 
of the core developers are who 

133
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,200
maybe were Anonymous earlier 
after slowly started like 

134
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,800
revealing their identities over 
time? 

135
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:43,200
No, I mean, what I mean is, I 
mean, there's only two who are 

136
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,500
actually actively trying to hide
their identities. 

137
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,700
The rest are just using 
nicknames online, but that 

138
00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:53,000
doesn't mean that they're 
actually trying to be perfectly 

139
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,900
hiding in their identities. 
You see what I mean? 

140
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,200
Oh, interesting. 
Okay, everyone except for the 

141
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,600
few who are Anonymous. 
We know, personally and we met a

142
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,900
few times now. 
It's actually quite hard to keep

143
00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:07,300
yourself in animus and do it. 
Well, it's quite a Time sink as 

144
00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:09,700
well and you have to be really 
kind of dedicated to it to do it

145
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,100
to be able to know you know know
exactly what you doing online 

146
00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:14,300
and be able to cover all your 
tracks. 

147
00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:18,500
And all cases is challenging. 
So it's quite a lot of effort. 

148
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,600
It's interesting that that says 
something different, to the 

149
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,400
public perception that that did 
a lot of the developers are 

150
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,700
actually not a but that's 
probably just because, you know,

151
00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:34,000
the the found it himself or 
herself is autonomous so yeah, 

152
00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:36,500
yeah, that's right. 
Yeah, cool. 

153
00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:40,000
So you know, that's maybe that's
jump into a little bit of this 

154
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,100
founding story then and so you 
know, I think there's II, you 

155
00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:48,400
know, I remember I was teaching 
a class on bitcoin back in like 

156
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,300
twenty fifteen or Thing, and I 
think that's around the time, 

157
00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:55,100
you know, we went to school or 
teaching this class, we heard 

158
00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:57,500
about this like, oh, there's 
this new proposal that's been 

159
00:08:57,500 --> 00:08:59,800
our around. 
That was just like, posted on. 

160
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,000
Like, you know, I first saw it 
on our / Bitcoin, but, you know,

161
00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:08,900
can you tell us a little bit 
about this story of how this 

162
00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:12,100
white paper got? 
Put into the world and who put 

163
00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:17,600
it there? 
Sure, I think he's from his I'm 

164
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,000
here. 
So I'll do that. 

165
00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:25,000
So basically there was this IRC 
thread our secret for Bitcoin 

166
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,000
developers. 
It was it was it called Bitcoin 

167
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,200
wizard, right? 
Pick an anonymous person. 

168
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,300
Basically came in there and 
dropped the paper. 

169
00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:37,800
That outlined the kind of the 
sketched out, the kind of the 

170
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,200
basic concept of member Wendel, 
which was then picked up by 

171
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,300
Andrew pole, straw, and I think,
Brian Bishop Bishop as well. 

172
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,800
And they kind of had some 
interactions there and and we 

173
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,900
post that and repulsed for 
formalized, some of the concepts

174
00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:55,100
in there into a paper and took 
it from there, right? 

175
00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,300
Because it from what I remember 
like, you know, the original 

176
00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,800
document wasn't even like it was
like literally just a text a DOT

177
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,100
txt file that was just dropped 
in there and it had like it's 

178
00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:06,000
look, they're just like, you 
know, if some quick thoughts on 

179
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,000
like what this guy was thinking 
and like some ideas and also, 

180
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,000
you know, for the listeners, one
of the, you know, one of the 

181
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,500
cute little story things there 
is. 

182
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,300
It was signed the the anonymous 
person, they signed them 

183
00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:19,900
themselves. 
Using the name, Tom Elvis, J 

184
00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:23,100
disorder, which is like, you 
know, the French name of 

185
00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:26,300
Voldemort like in the English 
versions, it's Tom marvolo 

186
00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:28,600
Riddle, so it's the French 
Alias. 

187
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,500
So yeah. 
Do you guys have any like, you 

188
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:34,700
know, guesses as to who it may 
have been like, you know, I've 

189
00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:37,300
heard like, you know, clearly in
the text file. 

190
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,600
A lot of these ideas were 
heavily derived from like, Greg 

191
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,100
Maxwell's previous works like 
coin, join and confidential 

192
00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:45,500
transaction. 
So I've you know I've heard 

193
00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:48,500
Greg, I've heard it posited that
you know it may have just been 

194
00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:51,900
Greg himself or you guys have 
any like theories on who this 

195
00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:55,400
was, or is it not even like of 
interest to you and you actually

196
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,300
don't even care to find out. 
I don't, I don't personally have

197
00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:04,100
any theories on it. 
It would be interesting as what 

198
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:05,900
as you just said there. 
I think that's kind of key. 

199
00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,300
There were a lot of the member 
Wendel favorite builds. 

200
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:12,300
A lot of builds upon a lot of 
ideas that were already there. 

201
00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:15,200
I kind of developed by 
established photographers the 

202
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,700
actual kind of portion of it 
than that makes up member. 

203
00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,900
Wimble is just kind of a small 
Insight / addition to what was 

204
00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:25,700
already presented before. 
So whoever was didn't 

205
00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:27,600
necessarily have to be a great 
cryptographer. 

206
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,200
It was Made a great flash of 
insight wherever it came from 

207
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,800
but no to me and I mean, I don't
think we're ever going to find 

208
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,600
out who it is and even if the 
even if whoever it is makes 

209
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,000
himself known no one's probably,
no one will believe them at this

210
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,500
point. 
So I think we just have to leave

211
00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:46,800
it as a mythical creation story 
that this point right there was 

212
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,900
like no cryptographic signature 
or anything all over the file. 

213
00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:51,700
So there's not even any way to 
know. 

214
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,500
Like, no one could even prove it
at this point. 

215
00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:58,700
Anyways, just a text 12 and so 
what was Andrew poster has 

216
00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:03,000
contribution here so you know I 
remember so this file was as 

217
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,500
positive and then like you know 
what was the original kind of 

218
00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:09,600
response to this is where the 
people like immediately. 

219
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,900
Realize that oh, there's like 
something big here or was it 

220
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:15,800
more of like people like okay 
another proposal and your poster

221
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,800
was like did it take time for 
him to realize that oh there's 

222
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,900
actually something like you know
much more insightful in this 

223
00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:26,500
document here. 
It took I mean, I wasn't around 

224
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:31,000
in the early days but from what 
I can see and Andrew pollster 

225
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,000
had to look over it and just to 
make sure that it was sound, I 

226
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,100
think there was a mistake or two
in there that he eventually 

227
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:40,200
corrected and I mean he was 
interested or not from that to 

228
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,500
write further white paper on how
an entire member wimble, 

229
00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:48,300
blockchain would work and I mean
he published a further kind of a

230
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:51,400
proper white paper based on 
that, which is a little bit 

231
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,100
outdated at this point. 
But and then he had Mother kind 

232
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:58,600
of a distance to it of that, you
may have seen some 

233
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,300
presentations. 
It has about about how to do 

234
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:02,800
some additions to its grip the 
script because there's no 

235
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,600
scripts and number wimble. 
There's a lot of a lot of things

236
00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:09,100
that you can do in Bitcoin or 
it's obvious how to do in 

237
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,900
Bitcoin by scripting that you 
can't necessarily do as 

238
00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:14,100
obviously in November but you 
can still do it. 

239
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,500
So a lot of kind of additions to
the protocol like that some of 

240
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:23,000
them theoretical some of them 
real fixes to what was there and

241
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,900
I think that was it. 
I mean, after the publication of

242
00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:28,300
those papers, I mean he hangs 
around if we need to get ahold 

243
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:31,500
of them to ask many questions 
I've used there, but he hasn't 

244
00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:33,900
been to two active. 
Now, over a table at the past 

245
00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:37,300
year, either busy or working on 
other things at this point. 

246
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:43,600
So, yeah, That's interesting. 
So in a way it's it's unusual 

247
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,900
for someone to actually pick up 
a proposal by someone else 

248
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:49,600
completely and so deeply 
immersed yourself and it that 

249
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,200
you actually find mistakes and 
can add to it substantially and 

250
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,900
make it into a fully-fledged 
proposal. 

251
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:59,500
What would you say helped for 
this to happen? 

252
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,100
I mean, do you think this is 
just a lucky break for member 

253
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:05,000
wimble? 
Are there tons of those 

254
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,200
proposals out there that just 
someone needs to pick up and 

255
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,100
make into something great? 
And I thought it did. 

256
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:13,800
Andrew. 
Look at this and saw the gem in 

257
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,100
the dirt. 
And you know, you know, how do 

258
00:14:16,108 --> 00:14:20,600
you think about this? 
If you drop a new proposal for 

259
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,800
something, or a new idea on in a
place, like Bitcoin Wizards, it 

260
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,200
will generally get looked at 
fairly quickly by by some 

261
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,500
serious serious people in the 
industry. 

262
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,900
So, I do genuinely think that 
this, it's not just a matter of 

263
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:37,400
getting luckier, you know, being
filtered somehow. 

264
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:41,300
It was genuinely a very, very, 
you know, transformative Insight

265
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,800
on what was already there. 
So, yeah, like I said, the 

266
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,500
obstacle team, we've seen plenty
of papers go. 

267
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,500
There's actually another A paper
put down by someone, claiming to

268
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:53,600
be the same Voldemort in this in
a similar style that was 

269
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,800
dropped. 
Maybe about six months ago and 

270
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,300
that was looked at in completely
trashed by the community as 

271
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:00,900
well. 
Notice, that makes absolutely no

272
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,200
sense that this and more to the 
point. 

273
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,100
This is probably not the same 
the same Voldemort or if it was.

274
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:10,200
He got lucky that one time so so
yeah I don't think there's an 

275
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,100
element to that. 
Like I think there's a genuine 

276
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,000
if you have a good idea and you 
presented in the crypto space it

277
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,100
will get considered generally. 
Yeah I think he was The the 

278
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,700
original text file was far from 
perfect, as you said it, had 

279
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:26,300
some errors in it as well, but 
it was actually presented. 

280
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:31,500
Very succinctly and very 
approachable way, which also 

281
00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:34,100
helps, of course, because it 
makes it easy for anybody who is

282
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:37,100
reviewing its to understand, 
whether there's some merits to 

283
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:39,900
these arguments or not, because 
it was building on already 

284
00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,900
established Concepts that were 
already popular in the space. 

285
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:47,900
That also, made it much easier. 
So how did how did it they 

286
00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:51,500
continue on from there? 
So how fast that this proposal 

287
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:54,000
That Was Then transformed by 
Andrew post. 

288
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,700
Ra how fast did it pick up 
steam? 

289
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:59,300
How fast the developers actually
come on board. 

290
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:04,000
Well, the first are many Andrew 
wrote the paper. 

291
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,800
I'm not, I think it was kind of 
not quite forgotten about. 

292
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,600
But, you know, put aside for a 
couple of months, it was only 

293
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,900
when, when now ignore someone by
the name of ignored, just a 

294
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:15,900
girl, who was the founder of the
project appeared again on the 

295
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:18,400
same channel. 
I think it was around December 

296
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,100
of 2016, roughly think. 
I think even October, I think, 

297
00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:26,400
if I remember cuentas 
presentation, so it was quite 

298
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,100
fast. 
Yeah. 

299
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:30,500
Yeah, yeah. 
And then he said I've had this 

300
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:34,200
was I've actually started a an 
open source version of this and 

301
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,500
uploaded the code and invited 
everyone to take a look. 

302
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:38,400
And I think it was it's clear 
kind of from the early 

303
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,800
conversations that there was a 
it was almost obviously apparent

304
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,000
that this diagnosis peverell 
person knew what he was doing. 

305
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,400
And you know had put up a was 
starting a really serious effort

306
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,500
to put together a memo window 
blockchain then. 

307
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:56,500
I think I think also there was 
yeah a few months later towards 

308
00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:59,500
December the middle window. 
Full mailing list was 

309
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:05,099
established which probably also 
helps a lot in kind of taking 

310
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:07,099
the project forward. 
It was a lot of discussion going

311
00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:11,000
on with a lot of noteworthy and 
kind of well-known people in the

312
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,800
field contributing. 
It's also kind of helped raise 

313
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,300
the awareness of the project 
itself. 

314
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,599
This episode of epicenter is 
brought to you by Microsoft and 

315
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,599
the Azure blockchain workbench. 
Getting your block tank from the

316
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,700
Whiteboard to production can be 
a big undertaking in something 

317
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:29,500
as simple. 
As connecting your blockchain to

318
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:33,500
iot devices or existing Erp, 
systems is a project in itself. 

319
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,800
Well, the folks at Microsoft had
you covered. 

320
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,500
You already know about the Azure
blockchain workbench and how 

321
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:40,800
easy it makes bootstrapping your
Block Chain network 

322
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:43,500
pre-configured with all the 
cloud services you need for your

323
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:46,200
Enterprise app. 
Their new development kit is the

324
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,400
IFTTT for blockchains. 
Suppose you want to collect data

325
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,800
from someone in a remote 
location via SMS and half that 

326
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,800
data package in a transaction 
for your hyper Ledger fabric. 

327
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,800
Blockchain the development kit 
allows Allows you to build this 

328
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,900
integration in just a few steps 
in a simple drag-and-drop 

329
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:04,000
interface, here is another great
example. 

330
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:07,300
Perhaps your institution, 
working with etherium and rely 

331
00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:11,500
on CSV file sent by email one. 
Click in the dev kit and you can

332
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,600
parse these files and have two 
data embedded in transactions, 

333
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,100
whatever you're working with the
dev kit can read transform and 

334
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:21,800
act on the data to learn more 
and to build your first 

335
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,900
application and less than 30 
minutes, visit aka.ms/offweb 

336
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:27,800
Ascender and be sure to follow 
them on. 

337
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:31,500
Her at msft. 
Blockchain would like to thank 

338
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,000
Microsoft and Azure for their 
support of epicenter. 

339
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,900
Maybe now, we can kind of start 
talking a little bit about. 

340
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,300
Like, so we keep saying this 
like nimble, wimble, blockchain 

341
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,600
and this move of protocol, but 
like, you know what, even is 

342
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,100
this member limbo protocol? 
And so, you know, maybe we can 

343
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:50,400
start off with, like, let's 
assume our listeners are, you 

344
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,200
know, relatively very familiar 
with the Bitcoin protocol. 

345
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,100
How would you explain memo 
wimble to them and kind of 

346
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:01,700
explain what's going on here? 
Right. 

347
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:04,600
Okay, well, I think it's rather 
than just kind of jumping it 

348
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,200
into the mechanics of it. 
We should. 

349
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,300
We should say what, what, the 
goals of it are, and that would 

350
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:15,600
be together by to provide what I
call very good, privacy 

351
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,500
intrinsic to the blockchain. 
So, now on some other other 

352
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:21,800
coins that may have been made, 
have been originally derived 

353
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,400
from Bitcoin, the Privacy would 
kind of be bolted on in certain 

354
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,800
ways. 
Like so your other cars, like my

355
00:19:29,808 --> 00:19:32,700
narrow would kind of put You 
different ways but the core of 

356
00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:35,500
the chain itself would kind of 
be the classic Bitcoin chain. 

357
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,500
As in The Ledger transactions, 
going back forever with the 

358
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:43,600
middle window protocol, you have
the Privacy built right into the

359
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,100
core level. 
So if I put, if I perform a 

360
00:19:46,108 --> 00:19:49,800
transaction, what ends up on the
chain is basically, it looks 

361
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,500
like random data. 
And this, the way this is done 

362
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:59,000
also allows some other 
interesting properties to come 

363
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,200
out of there. 
Such as Positive effect on the 

364
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,600
transaction size or on the chain
size, it ends up. 

365
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,900
You end up getting a much the 
same privacy as other coins with

366
00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:14,300
the much greatly reduced storage
space requirements, as well as 

367
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:16,400
some other kind of nifty 
features that are on to it. 

368
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,800
All of its kind of add together 
to enhance privacy without kind 

369
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,100
of the load that you may get 
some other chains so that's kind

370
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,800
of fundamentally, what member 
Wendel itself is about. 

371
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,100
So you see as the primary 
benefit being the Privacy step 

372
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,700
side of things? 
Yes, absolutely, I know men, its

373
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:36,600
built-in, it's at the protocol 
level. 

374
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,200
It's not optional interest 
because I remember when I like 

375
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,300
first heard about member Wendel,
I always actually usually are 

376
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:45,100
when I heard about it in the 
context of, you know, 

377
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,200
scalability and like, you know, 
increasing the sink times of 

378
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,300
like, of the chain. 
But then I feel like I only 

379
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,700
started actually hearing about 
the Privacy benefits, like, you 

380
00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:57,500
know, later on. 
So it's interesting that like, 

381
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,900
you know, I guess I just I 
obviously, I haven't been asked.

382
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:03,700
Over there. 
So I guess I kind of heard of I 

383
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,300
didn't really hear what the 
Privacy side of thing until much

384
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:09,000
later on. 
It's definitely like it's a 

385
00:21:09,008 --> 00:21:11,100
privacy point. 
It's a confidentiality pointed 

386
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,400
out that would pretty much be 
the from our perspective at 

387
00:21:13,408 --> 00:21:16,700
least the number one. 
The number one reason for being 

388
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,000
the scalability stuff is 
certainly nice to have and it's 

389
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,600
something that that we're 
improving on as time goes on. 

390
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,900
You know, Finding ways to make 
it even more scalable, how do we

391
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:30,500
reduce the size of UT? 
Exocet, Etc, probably talk about

392
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:32,300
some more. 
Technical details later on. 

393
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,500
Yeah, and maybe it's good to 
kind of point out that. 

394
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,600
Yeah, there's the member window 
protocol, which we talked about 

395
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,400
which was kind of dropped on the
IRC Channel and everything. 

396
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,600
And then you have Grim, which is
an implementation of the member 

397
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,700
when the protocol, but it's so 
much more than that as well. 

398
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,300
Of course, it's not only the 
protocol itself, but a bunch of 

399
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:57,400
other things and different 
approaches and philosophies that

400
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,900
add to that, actually, and they 
kind of a key key. 

401
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,700
Things that can really stand out
in terms of implementation, 

402
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,600
implementation wise. 
For from, from when I think, is 

403
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:10,200
that is tries to be very 
privacy-preserving to the 

404
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,200
greatest extent possible. 
I tries to be scalable and and 

405
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,700
it tries to be minimal in the 
approach that it takes and its 

406
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:24,900
design as a, as a blockchain. 
In general, to be very kind of 

407
00:22:24,908 --> 00:22:28,900
lat lightweight, and that kind 
of contributes also to the 

408
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:30,800
Privacy aspects because you 
don't want to put a lot of 

409
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,100
information. 
Formation on the chain and so 

410
00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:33,600
on. 
You want to do as little as 

411
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,000
possible, basically. 
And that that adds to it has 

412
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,600
like some nice properties to it.
There's no, there's no addresses

413
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,300
on the train, for example. 
And so on which it contributes 

414
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:47,500
to it being lightweight, but it 
also helps in the Privacy 

415
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:52,200
aspects of it. 
So I see the Privacy aspect is 

416
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:55,400
the main feature of in 
Belleville, but the scalability 

417
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,100
is also one feather add-on that 
you want by the add-on benefit 

418
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:03,500
that you get. 
Could you briefly explain how it

419
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:06,900
works on a technical level. 
Yeah, that's remaining. 

420
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,800
This is kind of it is a bit 
difficult to do without without 

421
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,900
whiteboards and a bit of time 
and then dealing with confused 

422
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:20,400
stairs but basically instead of 
how Bitcoin Because you have a 

423
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,700
ledger of transactions, going 
back to the beginning of to the 

424
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:27,200
Genesis block basically and you 
need to verify each and every 

425
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,100
transaction in order to start a 
new note Nimble window works at 

426
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:36,100
a bit more mathematically. 
So, so rather than The Ledger 

427
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,000
itself or having to validate the
measure itself, you just need to

428
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,100
validate the some of what's 
happened before. 

429
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,000
So when I put maybe I can try 
and walk through bit of 

430
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,600
transaction example, if I 
perform a transaction, right? 

431
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:52,800
Right? 
I have inputs and outputs and 

432
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,700
transactions are basically a 
load of inputs. 

433
00:23:56,700 --> 00:24:00,100
Plus your book, plus a bunch of 
outputs, and it doesn't matter 

434
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:01,500
how many there are. 
It doesn't matter how many 

435
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,700
participants there are just a 
number of in the amount of the 

436
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,800
inputs that have gone in have to
equal the amount of the airports

437
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,200
that have come out. 
Okay, so long as that's true 

438
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,700
then the transaction is valid. 
Now on top of that we have 

439
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:19,500
something called an excess value
which is used to prove Which is 

440
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:24,000
used to to enhance privacy, as 
well as prove ownership or 

441
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,500
something. 
So, say, I have a load of trans 

442
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:31,300
a load of inputs and it adds up 
to a certain number will then 

443
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,700
choose a private key that 
represents another addition to 

444
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,800
that number. 
And only, I know that number so,

445
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,100
and that's my private key. 
So, in order to validate, that 

446
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:48,300
inputs outputs, plus my private 
key that I've chosen, which is 

447
00:24:48,308 --> 00:24:54,900
in excess, Everything equals 0, 
I can do that without actually 

448
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:57,200
having to store the values of 
the amounts in there, right? 

449
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,400
So validators can just add this 
all together. 

450
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,100
Check it out and check 
everything, equal 0 and move on.

451
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,600
So that's fundamentally. 
What happens on a simple window 

452
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,300
blockchain. 
Does that make any sense? 

453
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:13,000
It does. 
So I think it's actually really 

454
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,600
difficult to explain with 
without white wood as you said. 

455
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,800
But party, what do you say? 
It's fair to describe. 

456
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:23,500
Hi bit as being cryptography. 
That is well known and is also 

457
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:28,300
used for Bitcoin with additional
elements for our first occasion.

458
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:32,300
Yeah, absolutely. 
I mean that we basically use the

459
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,600
same Library that's used in 
Bitcoin. 

460
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,200
We use the same the same curve. 
It's all based on the same 

461
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,100
fundamental mathematics. 
It's just the way we're kind of 

462
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,200
putting it together is slightly 
unique, remember wimble? 

463
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,900
Okay? 
And so this results in a 

464
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:54,900
blockchain, we're not only the 
transaction amounts of skated, 

465
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:57,900
it's it's also offer skated 
where they're coming from and 

466
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:03,700
where they're going and that's 
what do you what do you say 

467
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:04,900
that's factually? 
Correct. 

468
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,400
Yeah, it is truck. 
I mean I wouldn't even say 

469
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,900
they're all disconnected, 
they're just not there. 

470
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:13,000
Yeah, there's not enough so I 
should say, you know, that this 

471
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,400
is no there, no addresses on the
chainsaw. 

472
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Of course, you're not going to 
see from where it's going, but 

473
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:24,200
there is a chain of of outputs 
of utx cells essentially 

474
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,100
unchanged, but it, but it's very
hard to derive. 

475
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:31,100
Making any sense of that. 
That's basically the only 

476
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,600
information that is only served 
if there's no address is right? 

477
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,200
So, you know, how do signatures 
work in this system, right? 

478
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,900
Well, let's take that a 
signature. 

479
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:46,400
It's a signature basically 
proves that I had that that 

480
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,300
excess value. 
Could I was talking before 

481
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:51,600
because I've that's that's what 
I use to sign. 

482
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,500
The outputs that I put into a 
transaction right on in the 

483
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,400
blockchain itself. 
It's kind of its outputs all the

484
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,000
way down. 
There's no transactions on there

485
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,800
and in order to spend an output 
I need to ensure that I have 

486
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:07,900
this excess value for each and 
every output that I put on there

487
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:12,100
and then all of these added 
together become I have to prove 

488
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,500
Of, I knew the sum of all of 
these and then validate that I 

489
00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:17,800
can sign with that, and 
validators will be able to use 

490
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,600
that to, to prove, you know, to 
witness the thing. 

491
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,200
And to prove that I have the 
right to spend it. 

492
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:25,800
I see. 
So essentially what's going to 

493
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,700
happen here is like you know 
there's some excess value in 

494
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:34,500
this last transaction that was 
sent to me and I am the only one

495
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:38,500
who has knowledge of it and I'm 
able and by revealing that 

496
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:41,000
proving that knowledge of that, 
I'm the only one able to spend 

497
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,800
this but Did this excess value 
get into the previous 

498
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,800
transaction. 
So, you know, how did yeah, why 

499
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,200
is it in the output from the 
previous transaction? 

500
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,800
If I did like, didn't that mean 
that whoever sent me the coins 

501
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,900
had to have known that excess 
value right now, they knew their

502
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:02,200
excess value but when, when a 
transaction happens I create a 

503
00:28:02,208 --> 00:28:04,400
new one which represents my 
things. 

504
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,400
So what happens is someone sends
me a bunch of inputs for a 

505
00:28:07,408 --> 00:28:12,500
certain amount and then I will 
create and as well as The 

506
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:16,900
signature will contain their 
excess value and that gets sent 

507
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:18,800
to me. 
And what I do is I create my own

508
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:21,800
excess so I can create an output
for that amount, right? 

509
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,600
And then I have one output that 
I know the excess value for and 

510
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,700
then I can validate all the 
inputs that came into the 

511
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,500
transaction from the other 
person, equal that amount. 

512
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:33,700
So the sum is there and that's 
how that's how that's validated.

513
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,600
Right. 
So one of the key features are 

514
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:42,100
differences here with the member
wimble system is that in order 

515
00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:45,000
to receive money. 
I have to actually like you 

516
00:28:45,008 --> 00:28:48,300
know, be part of the transaction
making process right up right on

517
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:50,600
any cryptographic strength and 
say that's an interactive 

518
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,800
transaction. 
And that's the thing, too. 

519
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,000
It doesn't mean you need to be 
online. 

520
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,200
It doesn't mean it doesn't any 
of those connotations. 

521
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:02,100
It just means two parties, need 
to interact to, they need to 

522
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:06,000
exchange information somehow, 
and that can be On the Internet 

523
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,100
by steep here can be via sending
files to each other. 

524
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:13,000
It can be via 10 count on a 
string, it just has to happen 

525
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,900
somehow. 
That's not have any implications

526
00:29:16,900 --> 00:29:20,100
for the user experience as 
opposed to, you know, when you 

527
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:22,100
compare it to sending say 
Bitcoins. 

528
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,700
Oh yeah, tons of it. 
It's, you know, it's a very, 

529
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:30,300
very different experience and so
it for good and bad as well. 

530
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,400
Write it so so it's just 
different, I would say. 

531
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,800
So, as Michael said, there's a 
full round trip, is required to 

532
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,000
complete the transaction which 
means that I as a sender, need 

533
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,800
to send you some information, 
you take that information, you 

534
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,700
process that Get back to me then
I can finalize it and put it on 

535
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:49,500
the check. 
Right? 

536
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:54,100
But that also means that in 
order for unlike, for example, 

537
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,800
Bitcoin, where you can just kind
of in the blind, shoot 

538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000
transactions, to addresses here,
actually, both parties need to 

539
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,300
participate in order to receive 
which in some cases can sound 

540
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:08,100
like it's a lot of hassle or 
work but in other cases it's 

541
00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:10,500
actually really good because 
then you can actually, if you 

542
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:13,300
want to make sure you have to 
keep like an audit Trail or like

543
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,000
kind of keep your finances in 
order you can. 

544
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,700
Or that you have full control of
the funds that you receive 

545
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,600
because you're actually actively
participating in receiving them.

546
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,400
If you see what I mean, nobody 
can kind of spam you with with, 

547
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:26,100
with a bunch of transactions. 
Right. 

548
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:28,400
Some people actually may 
actually see this as a pro 

549
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,900
because I remember about a 
couple weeks ago, this is like 

550
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:35,900
YouTuber who I like to follow 
his name is Tom Scott and he 

551
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,900
kind of got into an argument 
with Brendan eich who is working

552
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,600
on as you know Brave or basic 
attention token and he was kind 

553
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,500
of getting upset that in Brave 
in basic attention, token. 

554
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:51,400
And so and really any most 
cryptocurrencies day, Bitcoin 

555
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,700
theorem that people have the 
ability to send you money 

556
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,700
without Out. 
You're like, you know, consent 

557
00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:01,600
essentially and this could have 
like weird sort of legal or 

558
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,900
regulatory consequences. 
And so, you know, to some people

559
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:08,900
they might actually see this as 
a pro and like, help the like 

560
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,000
adoption from like a legal 
perspective, as well. 

561
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:14,500
Absolutely. 
And also from like, you know, 

562
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:18,600
from from the from the, from the
point of like being a merchant, 

563
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:19,700
right? 
Then you said, you know, 

564
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:22,200
instructions to your customer, 
how to pay you. 

565
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,400
It prevents a lot of user error 
as well, because if you use it 

566
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,500
does The wrong you'll hopefully,
you'll detect that is part of 

567
00:31:29,508 --> 00:31:31,600
building that transaction. 
And you can reject those 

568
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,100
transactions rather than the 
user setting it to the wrong 

569
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:36,300
address. 
Getting that processed and then 

570
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:37,700
saying, Hey, where's my, Where's
My Money? 

571
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:41,100
Where's my, where's my stuff? 
And the you have this kind of 

572
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:43,100
Disconnect where you try to 
figure out what actually 

573
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,100
happened here. 
It's much easier to do that in 

574
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:48,300
an interactive protocol. 
Whether Merchants can kind of 

575
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:52,900
sense, check whether it's the 
correct behavior. 

576
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:55,200
In this, expected behavior from 
the customer. 

577
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,900
But it is it is also like I 
should say it's a different 

578
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,700
Paradigm than like what's 
usually being done today in 

579
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:04,900
blockchains. 
So there is like a lot of kind 

580
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:11,000
of extra effort or thinking that
that goes into it from like 

581
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,000
Merchants perspective and also 
from users perspective. 

582
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,600
So so it is, it is a kind of a 
different approach that that 

583
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:24,000
we're taking Okay, so in member 
Wendel, while it's interact to 

584
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,800
create privacy preserving, 
interactions, how does this help

585
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,100
with scalability? 
Right. 

586
00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:34,400
There's a few things, I think 
most simply in order to think of

587
00:32:34,408 --> 00:32:35,800
if I'm a new node on the 
network. 

588
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,900
In order to sync up, I don't 
need to have the whole history 

589
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:42,700
of the chain behind me. 
I need I simply need to have the

590
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:46,600
headers and I seem to Simply 
need to have enough of 

591
00:32:46,608 --> 00:32:47,900
something. 
What we call the transaction 

592
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:51,700
kernel, which contains all of 
the all of the signatures today 

593
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:54,100
to make sure that they add up to
zero and I need to make sure 

594
00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:58,000
that those all that up. 
So instead of you know, if you 

595
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,300
if you think a new Bitcoins I 
know for instance, you're 

596
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,800
downloading the whole history in
this case, no, you just need to 

597
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,800
download the headers and then 
enough information to make sure 

598
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,300
that your thumb with the some of
the entire chain equals zero. 

599
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,600
And then you should be good to 
go. 

600
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:15,000
I mean, it's only early days for
the green chain at the moment, 

601
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,100
but you can already see like 
this. 

602
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:18,700
Distinct process is a few 
minutes and that should 

603
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:23,900
provided, the header think time.
Kind of is fast enough that the 

604
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:26,600
same time should remain fairly 
constant for a new node coming 

605
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,100
on, no matter how big the chain 
is. 

606
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,400
So that's certainly one 
advantage. 

607
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:31,900
There. 
And there's other ones which are

608
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,000
probably. 
They were mentioned in the 

609
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,700
paper, but they're probably in 
practice, not quite. 

610
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:43,400
As quite as you know, good for 
quite as Bountiful say, for 

611
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,900
scalability, one of them is a 
notion of core through which is 

612
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:52,500
if if I send transaction I send 
the transaction to somebody and 

613
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:54,900
they immediately send it to 
somebody else. 

614
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,200
I can actually cut out some of 
the outputs in the middle of 

615
00:33:57,208 --> 00:33:59,300
that because everything was 
still light up. 

616
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,900
So I'm basically I'm basically 
taking, you know, the same 

617
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,300
number of both sides of an 
equation and yeah Daniel may 

618
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,400
have stopped give anything to 
add as well. 

619
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:13,100
Yeah. 
I think you covered it but I 

620
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,300
wanted to point out that it was 
part of that thinking process. 

621
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,100
This is not like a light clients
think or anything like that this

622
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:25,199
or as PV approach, it's actually
like a full node sink and and it

623
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,000
gives you like proper security 
guarantees. 

624
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,400
And it's much faster than, you 
know, And she'll approaches. 

625
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,800
Right. 
Yeah, I mean so I've actually 

626
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,199
been you know gambling around 
with like the grin nodes and 

627
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,100
like I've been trying to run a 
grin minor over the past week or

628
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:44,900
so and so when I actually 
started I opened up my grid node

629
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:49,100
and it's like sink in a matter 
of like 30 seconds or so. 

630
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:51,600
And not that like the green box 
chains only been around for a 

631
00:34:51,607 --> 00:34:54,300
month anyway, so it's like it 
wouldn't have been that long 

632
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,600
anyways, but it kind of blew me 
away that like, I'm like, woah. 

633
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,500
Did it actually just sink? 
Like, I probably messed 

634
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:01,200
something up. 
I need to try this again. 

635
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,300
Like like it kind of blew my 
mind. 

636
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,300
Yeah, we got it's early days for
the blockchain but it's even 

637
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:08,900
after a month like it should 
take longer. 

638
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:10,800
If it were traditional 
blockchain it would be taking 

639
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,600
longer already. 
So right. 

640
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,600
Exactly. 
And so that really amazed me 

641
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,800
there so with this cut through 
thing. 

642
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,400
So you know you're so you're 
saying we can, you know, kind of

643
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,900
like to give some intuition for 
the listeners. 

644
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:29,400
Essentially, what we can do here
is once transactions have been 

645
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,100
spent, we can kind of like 
Delete them from the train. 

646
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:35,900
Essentially we're aggregating, 
everything that's already spend.

647
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:41,800
And so all we have is the 
current UT exocet and nothing of

648
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,400
the history, right? 
Is there. 

649
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,500
And so does that mean it's 
constant? 

650
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:48,300
Is there any like piece of data 
that has to stick around from 

651
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,800
the history? 
Or is it, does it all completely

652
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,100
like 100% disappear? 
No, no. 

653
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,800
The transaction kernels need to 
stay around and that's probably 

654
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,800
the biggest potent. 
The biggest Point against 

655
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,800
scalability or something very 
much like You see, there's no 

656
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,200
way to currently compress the 
kernels into, you know, into 

657
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,900
some them off. 
Basically let you can most other

658
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:11,200
parts of the system. 
If you do figure that out one 

659
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,000
day, then we're going to have a 
very very compact blockchain. 

660
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,500
I'm not even sure you can call 
it a chain and at that point 

661
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,800
could you explain slightly what 
this Colonel is like, right? 

662
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,600
So the signature I was talking 
about earlier. 

663
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,900
There's a few, there's a few 
things that most importantly, is

664
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:28,000
that signature, that proves the 
value and that's, and that 

665
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,900
becomes part of a sum. 
So if I need to sum up all of 

666
00:36:30,908 --> 00:36:32,900
the kernels, It's in the 
blockchain. 

667
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:37,400
I'm basically done basically 
summing up everything that's 

668
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,000
ever happened and so long as it 
equals 0, it doesn't matter how 

669
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,000
many there were, where they came
from. 

670
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,900
Then I know the change is valid 
at that point and that all has 

671
00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:46,000
to be contained within the 
kernel. 

672
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,800
Which unfortunately haven't 
found a way to to get rid of at 

673
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:56,000
this point or some I see. 
And so that one question, 

674
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,700
another question here is, I'm 
sure you guys may have heard of 

675
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:05,000
a project called Coda which is 
like they use sort of what they 

676
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,700
call a recursive snarks to 
achieve actually somewhat very 

677
00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:12,300
similar properties to what 
you're achieving here and so but

678
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,700
you know the benefit here is 
with snarks. 

679
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:18,800
You kind of you know you can do 
more than just these like basic 

680
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:21,500
transactions. 
You can kind of essentially in 

681
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:24,800
theory you You know, you can 
essentially put any sort of 

682
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,800
computation into here including 
like very complex, smart 

683
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,700
contracts and whatnot. 
But you know it seems the con 

684
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:34,000
here is you know obviously 
they're depending on somewhat 

685
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,000
more complex topography. 
And so what how do you, how do 

686
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,900
you see the comparison between 
this member Wendel protocol and 

687
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:46,000
these code of recursive snarks? 
Yeah, member Wendel itself. 

688
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,000
It's being considered as a 
positive or negative but because

689
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,800
it is so succinct the 
cryptography that use, it's 

690
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,200
basically algebra top of 
Photography that there and 

691
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,900
because it's so statista Saint 
and so kind of compact and kind 

692
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:04,600
of self-contained, it's 
difficult to kind of put any 

693
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,300
other stuff around it 
necessarily. 

694
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:10,800
So like there are no scripts in 
there but I mean we were talking

695
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,600
earlier about this notion of 
script the script. 

696
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,200
So there are there are ways kind
Their mathematical trick tricks,

697
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:19,900
a lot of them still still 
theoretical but could be 

698
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:23,500
employed on top of this. 
So that's that's kind of the 

699
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:25,600
main difference. 
I think that it's so succinct 

700
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,200
and so compact that it's 
difficult to sometimes add more 

701
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,600
functionality to it or to think 
of how you're going to add 

702
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,600
functionality to it and those 
who it's as you pointed out it 

703
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,900
relies on minimal security 
assumption but the discrete 

704
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:43,600
logarithm problem is hard and 
that's it. 

705
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:48,700
You know, that's that that's 
very, very important and makes 

706
00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:51,000
it a big difference. 
Yeah absolutely. 

707
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,100
I mean member Wendel, it's zero 
knowledge. 

708
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:54,600
All the way through zero 
knowledge proof. 

709
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,900
They all the way through We 
didn't episode on Kota a couple 

710
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:00,600
of months ago. 
So if you're interested 

711
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,700
listener, go check that out. 
So how would you say does member

712
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,200
when Bo compared to Z cash on 
one Arrow or other privacy? 

713
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,300
First chains, I'm from what 
perspective? 

714
00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:16,000
From a technology technology 
perspective. 

715
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,500
Orgasm from a functionality, the
functionality and Technology 

716
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,500
perspective. 
I mean, they're both of them 

717
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:24,700
kind of touch upon things. 
We've talked about, like, I and 

718
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:26,400
again, I don't want to be 
disparaging to any of these 

719
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,800
projects are just purely a point
of comparison and we have a lot 

720
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,600
of respect for the present cash 
and mineiro in particular, it's 

721
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,400
so that cash rent, we're talking
about it. 

722
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,500
It's based on the historic 
Seaver talked about earlier, to 

723
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:44,000
completely trusted setup. 
Nimble wimble itself and any 

724
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,600
member Wendel coin is going to 
be completely zero knowledge. 

725
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,100
So although there's no not like 
a key ceremony or anything to 

726
00:39:51,107 --> 00:39:53,400
start it up, it's all completely
trustless. 

727
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:58,600
And the case of Manero, I mean 
they have a lot probably saved 

728
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,100
more privacy features than 
what's in member Wendel at the 

729
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:02,700
moment. 
But a lot of that comes out an 

730
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:05,400
expense. 
So they use Briggs ring 

731
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,600
signatures at some point. 
They use was coming to mind 

732
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,400
right now, but there's all of 
the kind of different methods 

733
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,900
that Have Bobby skating 
transactions are kind of on top 

734
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:19,000
of a Bitcoin like structure. 
So, and again, remember when 

735
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,800
Bill itself is just a very 
compact concise way of doing it.

736
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,700
So those would be kind of the 
main comparison points. 

737
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,400
I would also describe manero's 
more kind of mature. 

738
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,200
It compared to wood grain is but
granny simpler. 

739
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,000
There's a lot of more privacy 
features in more narrow but 

740
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:43,000
still grinning simpler and 
achieves kind of a lot with a 

741
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,700
little space and kind of 
approach minimal approach with Z

742
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:52,400
cash, you have, which fully 
shielded transactions, better 

743
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,300
privacy properties. 
But as Mike was saying, requires

744
00:40:56,300 --> 00:41:00,100
a trusted set. 
And also has this problem of 

745
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,300
shielded versus unshielded 
transactions. 

746
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:07,800
So you don't have actually 
privacy on by default in the 

747
00:41:07,808 --> 00:41:12,200
protocol itself, which is very 
different from from from 

748
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,500
grinning that comes with its own
kind of problems. 

749
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:18,100
I know that Z cash companies and
then the foundation is actively 

750
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,100
working to improve that and have
more, and more transactions 

751
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,800
going through the shielded ones,
which are more computationally 

752
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,500
expensive than the unshielded 
ones. 

753
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:28,700
But that's a big, big 
difference. 

754
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,800
And then we have governance 
approaches of these of these two

755
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,500
projects we certain sort of 
generally different as well. 

756
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:39,400
So when you think of like, you 
know, the impact, you know, the 

757
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,100
effectiveness of a privacy 
solution, how I usually like to 

758
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,300
think of it as like, you know, 
what is the Privacy set the 

759
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,200
anonymity set here, right? 
And so when you, when you use 

760
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,000
manero's ring signatures, you're
basically choosing a couple of 

761
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,700
other transactions to mix in 
with. 

762
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,200
And the end your anonymity set 
is only the size of a few 

763
00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:01,400
Actions like no. 
No, I think the default was 

764
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,800
about 5 or something. 
And then the idea is, as you 

765
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,100
keep making more transactions 
gets muddled. 

766
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,700
But in Z cash, the anonymity set
is the entire set of all other 

767
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:13,300
shielded transactions. 
Right? 

768
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,800
So, how would you, what's the? 
And so clearly the anonymity set

769
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,200
of Z cash is much much larger 
than that of Manero. 

770
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:25,000
Where did, how would you 
describe the anonymity set of 

771
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:28,300
member wimble? 
Right? 

772
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:31,600
All right with bring signatures 
in particular. 

773
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,400
I believe those are used mostly 
to cover up the the transaction 

774
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,000
graph as in if someone is 
following, you know is 

775
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,400
monitoring nodes and is watching
transactions, they can kind of 

776
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,500
start to piece together 
information about what's 

777
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:46,700
happening there and then, that's
something that that's an ongoing

778
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:49,000
challenge that we always have 
discussions about that right 

779
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,300
now. 
We have a protocol in place 

780
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:55,900
called called dandelion which is
an a you know, an attempt to To 

781
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,800
hide not completely concealed. 
With certainly make it more 

782
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,500
difficult for someone to follow 
a transaction graph. 

783
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:05,200
And that works by instead of 
just one or no get to 

784
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,100
transaction, it doesn't just 
burst it to, to every note, it 

785
00:43:08,107 --> 00:43:11,200
knows about it actually follows 
during what we call a stem 

786
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,100
phase, send it to one node, 
sends to another node to another

787
00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:16,100
node. 
And eventually you know, Brandon

788
00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:20,100
Lee one of them will then do the
fluff phase which is broadcast 

789
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:23,600
to all of the piers at nose. 
In terms of the Ottoman and 

790
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,600
annuities that in theory, it, 
you know, because you're doing 

791
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,100
with member. 
When will you support 

792
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,800
non-interactive coin joints? 
If assuming that the, you know, 

793
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,800
you can aggregate all the 
transactions, but basically in a

794
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,100
block or, you know, send out an 
aggregated transaction broadcast

795
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:43,200
out to the chain as well. 
So you have a lot of kind of, 

796
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:46,800
there's a lot of opportunities 
to improve that anonymity set as

797
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,700
it goes out. 
Galaxy. 

798
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:52,500
I mean my if you're looking if 
you look at the blockchain, they

799
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:54,600
have nothing else to go on. 
You just looking at the contents

800
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,400
of the chain of the Ute, exocet 
there isn't, you can get 

801
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,700
absolutely nothing for out. 
There is no way to get anything 

802
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:05,600
from it and the points of the 
system and the anonymity set is 

803
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,700
very much based around. 
How easy is it for someone to 

804
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,900
construct the transaction graph 
and reconstruct, what happened? 

805
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:13,400
And it's something that we're 
continually working on through 

806
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,700
through various, you know, 
Research into various 

807
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:19,700
Technologies and additions to 
what We're doing if like you 

808
00:44:19,707 --> 00:44:22,800
know once transactions have made
it onto the chain. 

809
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:27,200
It's essentially a coin, join 
amongst all transactions that 

810
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,700
have happened and so it does 
kind of give you a, you know, a 

811
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:35,100
very, very large anonymity set 
but it doesn't solve the problem

812
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:39,700
of, you know, the what of 
observing the peer-to-peer 

813
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,600
Network and you know, anyone 
who's trying to break privacy, 

814
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,800
will definitely be doing that. 
And you know I know companies 

815
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,700
have done this in the past. 
I've seen Alice's and And so, 

816
00:44:48,707 --> 00:44:50,400
that's where this like dandelion
comes in. 

817
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,500
And dandelion is sort of this 
like privacy feature in grin 

818
00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,600
that is actually no, completely 
independent of member Wendel. 

819
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,900
It's like a separate privacy 
feature. 

820
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:02,700
And so, you know, you described 
it a little bit about this, 

821
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:06,200
like, fluff thing. 
But, can you look describe it a 

822
00:45:06,207 --> 00:45:07,900
little bit further from my 
understanding? 

823
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:12,900
You can kind of think of it as 
this like tour Mix net kind of 

824
00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:17,000
thing for transactions is that 
like a my having the right 

825
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,200
mental model here? 
Here or I mean dandy-lion 

826
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,500
itself. 
That there's a few things 

827
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:24,800
happening dandelion and member 
Wendel itself are very 

828
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,700
complementary Technologies, 
okay? 

829
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,700
Because in order to perform this
this coin type aggregation that 

830
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:35,600
we've been talking about it 
needs to be done in one way. 

831
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,100
And one way only before his the 
chain because you could have 

832
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:40,100
problems. 
If all, if all nodes everywhere 

833
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:43,200
or putting together transactions
and lumping them together in 

834
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,000
different ways. 
And then you can end up with 

835
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,400
with issues when they try to get
to be. 

836
00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:51,100
We got apply to the chain now 
with dandelion because 

837
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:55,900
dandelion, there's a distinct 
phase where the transaction is 

838
00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:58,700
being sent from one note to the 
next note to another node one at

839
00:45:58,700 --> 00:46:03,700
a time, along the stem, as I was
calling it that gives us an 

840
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:07,600
opportunity to apply this this 
coin to transaction as we go 

841
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,900
along. 
So as a trans actor, as a 

842
00:46:09,908 --> 00:46:12,100
transaction goes through the 
stem phase, it gets aggregated 

843
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:17,600
with with other transactions as 
it goes along until finally. 

844
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:22,300
Since until finally, it gets to,
you know, at some random point 

845
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:24,400
one no we're gonna sit, right? 
No more aggregation. 

846
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,000
And then explode and then all of
the nodes are all of its peers 

847
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,100
know about it and it gets 
propagated that way to in 

848
00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:34,700
building. 
When you do you do the boss like

849
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:38,000
you basically Evernote kind of 
just immediately when they have 

850
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:40,300
something to broadcast the 
broadcast it out to everybody, 

851
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,000
they're connected to the 
network, right? 

852
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,400
And here the purpose of 
dandelion is basically to do 

853
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,100
that but it's just not you who 
Does that kind of explosion? 

854
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:54,500
The gossip protocol used said 
pass the transaction that you 

855
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:58,800
have through one of two 
directions and then there's 

856
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,100
basically a coin flip between 
for every node whether they're 

857
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:06,200
gonna spread it out or just pass
it along to a single node, that 

858
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,200
makes it much harder for 
somebody who's monitoring the 

859
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,100
entire network, to figure out 
where that transaction 

860
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:13,700
originated from the network. 
Because just because it gets 

861
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:17,400
broadcasted out from a note, 
doesn't mean that that note that

862
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,800
the action belongs to that note,
if it's, if you see lemon, okay,

863
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,100
so, you know, maybe we can like 
kind of walk through how this 

864
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,300
dandelion process works. 
So essentially happen, here is, 

865
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:32,000
let's say, you know, we have 
this large Network and I'm the 

866
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,100
one who's creating this 
transaction, I'll go ahead and 

867
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:37,800
send it, you know, maybe to 
Michael Michael, you'll send it 

868
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,800
to Daniel. 
And then Daniel has this, like 

869
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,100
seed thing that like, it tells 
them when it's time to propagate

870
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:44,500
it. 
Right? 

871
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:47,600
And so, he'll be the one to 
like, push it to the rest of the

872
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,800
network. 
But where's this aggregation 

873
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,200
happening? 
Is it that like, let's Say if it

874
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:57,000
just so happens that the two 
stems of a dandelion intersect, 

875
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,100
then that person whoever had 
that intersection of two of the 

876
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:04,100
stems that Veil like be the one 
who's locally aggregating it. 

877
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,100
Yeah. 
So so there will be, you know, 

878
00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:12,700
at every Epoch there will be a 
couple of notes that will be 

879
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:17,000
fluffing notes and a lot of 
transactional going to end up at

880
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,500
those fluffy nodes and at that 
point they get aggregated and 

881
00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:22,200
before they get flushed up, 
okay? 

882
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,500
So there is some mechanism of 
like so the the path of the stem

883
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:29,200
isn't just completely random to 
the peer-to-peer Network. 

884
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:33,500
They are kind of moving towards 
some aggregator notes who will 

885
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:36,900
do the aggregation. 
In there, but it changes after 

886
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:40,000
every Epoch, it kind of resets 
and everybody cannot do. 

887
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,700
I new connections and so, how 
does the Louvre? 

888
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:46,400
At least that's how it's done in
dandelion plus plus, which is I 

889
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,300
think what we're actually, I 
think we have a simpler version 

890
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:53,100
implemented in in England, 
today, it's like the original 

891
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:58,300
dandelion paper and I think this
version 1.1, I think it's going 

892
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:02,500
to come out in that approach. 
How are these nodes chosen. 

893
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:05,200
Exactly. 
Their chosen at random amongst 

894
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:06,700
themselves. 
Like there's a coin flip on each

895
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:07,800
side. 
Am I going to fluff it? 

896
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,000
Or I'm going to pass it along 
this time and that's just in the

897
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,200
in the current simpler version. 
But I think they're the reason 

898
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,100
that there's a 1.1 of this 
coming out is because it kind of

899
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:21,800
reduces the, the chances are the
occurrence, the chances for, for

900
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,000
any aggregation to happen. 
So for aggregation to happen, 

901
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,300
are you need a transaction to 
come into OneNote? 

902
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,200
And then two and then to be stem
through another node that has 

903
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,600
some other transactions in it, 
right? 

904
00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:33,600
So what channel just described 
for done deal and plus plus is a

905
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,700
way of ensuring that more 
aggregation happens in the 

906
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:39,800
dandelion Network. 
So what happens if there's not a

907
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,600
lot of usage on the network and 
they're not enough transactions 

908
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,000
to actually compound Yeah, if 
they're not a lot of you should 

909
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,000
then been transactions, don't 
get, don't get aggregated. 

910
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,700
I mean, you'll see, I mean it's 
early days for the chain so I 

911
00:49:52,707 --> 00:49:53,900
mean, you'll see a lot of blocks
there. 

912
00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:56,800
It's you know, one transaction 
in there are two transaction in 

913
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:02,200
the more one plus the coinbase. 
So yeah, I mean, the more users 

914
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,800
are on the network. 
The more transactions are going 

915
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,800
around the greater the chances 
of there being aggregation, so 

916
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,700
it is, it is definitely related 
to the the amount of usage on 

917
00:50:11,707 --> 00:50:13,600
the network. 
Let me that's also why we're 

918
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,300
building it. 
I mean, we're not building it 

919
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:18,700
for kind of like low usage and 
see what we go. 

920
00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:21,000
We don't really have any 
interest in doing that. 

921
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,900
There's nobody kind of like it's
better off for doing that. 

922
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:26,800
Instead you know, everybody's 
kind of working towards this 

923
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,900
idea that this is going to be a,
you know, a big well Use 

924
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:34,300
protocol that's the Assumption. 
So. 

925
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,600
So as you just briefly mention 
it, the mention Grand, actually 

926
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,400
launched January, that was last 
month. 

927
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:43,600
So green is actually the 
implementation of remember when 

928
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,100
both are both of you are working
on and we kind of skipped over 

929
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:48,400
about this. 
We skipped over this like a 

930
00:50:48,408 --> 00:50:50,800
little bit. 
There's also another 

931
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:55,200
implementation name beam. 
Would you, can you tell us how 

932
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,900
bement grin actually differ from
each other? 

933
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,800
The green was launched in 
October 2016. 

934
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:08,400
I think and the beam is a second
member, Wendel implementation. 

935
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,900
That was announced I think in 
May or June something 20 2018 

936
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,300
and they do is they take a 
different approach governance 

937
00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:21,500
structure organizational, they 
are there's a development 

938
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:26,200
company building that visiting 
different language has some 

939
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,000
adopted some of the approaches 
that we do in Grid. 

940
00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:32,300
But they are on their own cannot
separate. 

941
00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:33,800
Path is not like a fork or 
anything. 

942
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:38,600
It's their own separate project 
and you know we in general of 

943
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,000
course, is going to be many 
different women with limitations

944
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:45,100
if anybody who wants to can put 
one together. 

945
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,900
So so I think that's that's it. 
But it's very kind of it's a 

946
00:51:49,908 --> 00:51:53,200
very different structure in 
terms of how they are organized 

947
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,600
and what their approach is to 
some of the things So is there 

948
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,600
like you know, what is the 
extent of the relationship 

949
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,300
between the teams is there like 
a lot of information sharing? 

950
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:05,000
Because I know for example, you 
know, the green team is that one

951
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,600
who kind of came up with this 
idea of dandelion and so then 

952
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,200
being kind of adopted it. 
But I know there's also 

953
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,900
something interesting Innovation
happening from the beam side 

954
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:15,500
where, you know, I was reading 
some of their documentation and 

955
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:19,400
they have like a mechanism of 
sort of these kernels. 

956
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,400
We were talking about that are 
being left in the chain. 

957
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,000
They have a method of like, kind
of pruning those out and 

958
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,900
incentivizing the pruning of the
Those. 

959
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:29,700
They also have this a bulletin 
board thing that they were 

960
00:52:29,707 --> 00:52:32,800
talking about, we're like it 
helps with this interactivity 

961
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,800
needed. 
So is there any like what is the

962
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,900
kind of the communication 
between these teams and like, 

963
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:40,500
you know, any plans? 
So kind of like Port over some 

964
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:42,500
of their features back into 
grin. 

965
00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:46,400
Right. 
So just to point out that you 

966
00:52:46,408 --> 00:52:48,200
know, dandelion is not our 
invention. 

967
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,400
It's Julia fonte. 
And some other researchers that 

968
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,700
have a particular protocol and 
yeah, there are different. 

969
00:52:55,700 --> 00:53:00,500
You know, in general the Grim 
project interacts with any team 

970
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:04,100
or any kind of any individual 
researchers that want to 

971
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:06,200
interact and want to share 
knowledge in like an Earnest 

972
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,200
way. 
We do have some kind of 

973
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,900
communication with the beam team
as well, they donated to our to 

974
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:16,700
our fun. 
And we don't have like a like a 

975
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:20,400
good relationship with them 
generally though, what kind of I

976
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,900
think green is focused on is to 
do this very kind of minimal 

977
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:28,500
implementation that doesn't have
a lot of overhead and doesn't 

978
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:33,500
have a lot of keeping things 
simple and and we're definitely 

979
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,700
open for influences a new ideas 
when it came out. 

980
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:40,500
And when they do, we evaluate 
them, we met them and then you 

981
00:53:40,500 --> 00:53:42,100
know, if they're good we adopt 
them. 

982
00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:45,300
Any thoughts on the current? 
Like some of the ones that 

983
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:48,100
they've already started on, like
this bulletin board, or the 

984
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,200
kernel fusion and stuff. 
Maybe the kind of the 

985
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,900
fundamental difference here. 
I think is that the grain is as 

986
00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:59,800
adopted a community approach to 
a lot of things. 

987
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,000
So for instance, like the 
bulletin board that you just 

988
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,900
talked about is basically it's a
way of dealing with the the 

989
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:08,600
interaction problem that we were
talking about earlier. 

990
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:11,000
How do you, how do people 
interact? 

991
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,800
How does it work? 
If someone's not Well, how do 

992
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,900
you send funds to somebody 
without without them being 

993
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:18,600
around or online to perform the 
transaction? 

994
00:54:19,100 --> 00:54:23,600
And and I mean Grim have a being
at brother has a what a piece a 

995
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,000
prescriptive approach to this 
right? 

996
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,200
You built a bulletin board and 
you do your chores actually here

997
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,400
in this is a solution grins 
approach is to leave that up to 

998
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,400
the community and other authors.
So for instance, for the that 

999
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,700
particular problem, our approach
is to provide a very decent set 

1000
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,000
of wallet tools to do the 
fundamentals of building 

1001
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,200
transactions and politics. 
And then let the community come 

1002
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,400
up with different ways of 
handling solutions to these 

1003
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,300
problems, according to different
needs, you know, some people 

1004
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:53,300
might might only want to meet in
dark alleys with Bits of Paper 

1005
00:54:53,300 --> 00:54:56,300
and that's how they want to do 
their transactions and that's 

1006
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:58,500
fine. 
We can support that other people

1007
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:01,600
might want to come along and 
build some Solutions on top of 

1008
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,400
that. 
Like there's a there's a there's

1009
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,100
an open source project called 
wallet, 713 that has another 

1010
00:55:08,100 --> 00:55:10,900
solution built on, top of that. 
Each time you arrive at a 

1011
00:55:10,908 --> 00:55:14,000
solution like this on top. 
Top of member Wendel. 

1012
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,400
You're also adding, you know, 
you're actually lessening the 

1013
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,300
security and confidentiality a 
bit as well. 

1014
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:21,000
So that has to be taken into 
consideration. 

1015
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,200
So, I think like a fundamental 
approaches Community, we're 

1016
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,400
trusting the community to take 
written as the core layer, and 

1017
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,100
then build build custom 
Solutions, or whatever suits 

1018
00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:34,200
various groups on top of that. 
Yeah. 

1019
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:39,200
And I mean it's exactly as 
Michael says, and I mean, that's

1020
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,900
the beauty of it because it's 
not prescriptive and, and it 

1021
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:44,700
lets, you know, basically the 
community figure it out and try 

1022
00:55:44,700 --> 00:55:47,900
different approaches and see 
what is the one that's going to 

1023
00:55:47,908 --> 00:55:51,700
get traction and usage. 
I-i'm for full disclosure, I'm 

1024
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:55,100
involved in bullets of 13 and 
the green box, transaction 

1025
00:55:55,100 --> 00:55:57,700
protocol that we're doing. 
And the reason why we did it was

1026
00:55:57,700 --> 00:56:01,200
because we saw a need for it, an
opportunity to do it, that would

1027
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,600
make sense to add some value. 
So, we do that. 

1028
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,200
And as a result, there's now, 
you know many, you know, there's

1029
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,900
another team now doing building 
on top of gray, right? 

1030
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,200
And I think, if you look at it, 
you know, if you take a, like, a

1031
00:56:13,207 --> 00:56:17,000
macro view on it, it has to be 
many different development 

1032
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,800
teams. 
Trying to solve specific 

1033
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,300
problems that they have, you 
know, make things better in the 

1034
00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:27,000
usage of a chain rather than 
like this Reliance on like a 

1035
00:56:27,008 --> 00:56:29,700
single entry point. 
And I think it's a single 

1036
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:32,700
Central kind of company or 
whatever organization would be. 

1037
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,200
I don't. 
Think that's a scalable approach

1038
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,900
because, you know, it becomes. 
Yeah. 

1039
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:39,900
Yeah. 
You need to let like many 

1040
00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:43,600
attempts kind of to solve the 
same problem and see which one 

1041
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,200
works basically. 
It's like the bizarre versus 

1042
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,800
Cathedral discussion. 
Writing software development. 

1043
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,700
So you know, we talked a lot 
about nimbala humble and just 

1044
00:56:54,700 --> 00:56:58,200
dandelion stuff but you know and
I know another area that you 

1045
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,000
know, the green team has been 
kind of like developing heavily 

1046
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,400
is you know kind of innovating 
on this like you know 

1047
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,600
proof-of-work algorithm as well 
as like you know experimenting 

1048
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,700
with like new issuance models 
and inflation models. 

1049
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,400
And so you know I know you guys 
are using this proof-of-work 

1050
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:20,500
algorithm called cuckoo cycle 
and like you know it kind of 

1051
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,600
started with this. 
Desire to try to create like an 

1052
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,200
Asic, resistance hashing 
algorithm, but then over time, 

1053
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,400
it seems that like the goals of 
this hash proof-of-work 

1054
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,500
algorithm design have changed 
heavily and now there's this 

1055
00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:39,100
like, you know, complex are to 
system version and it can you 

1056
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:41,500
kind of explain to me what's 
going on here? 

1057
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:45,900
Sure. 
So this is like a high level 

1058
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:48,500
kind of summary of this like a 
family of proof-of-work 

1059
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:51,700
algorithms created by John Trump
called, you know, the cuckoo 

1060
00:57:51,700 --> 00:57:57,900
cycle family which basically the
algorithm then the whole 

1061
00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:02,300
objective is you have like this 
bunch of nodes connections 

1062
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,400
between different units in a 
hash table. 

1063
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,100
The cuckoo has table and the 
objective is basically to find 

1064
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:17,800
like a 42. 42 loop loop that 
connects 42 notes, and that's a 

1065
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:23,400
solution for your proof of work.
And as a description of what we 

1066
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,100
do today, we have basically two 
proof of works. 

1067
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:32,700
One is the Asic resistant 
algorithm, which is kind of 

1068
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:36,900
optimized towards gpus. 
And the other one is an Asic 

1069
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,400
targeted algorithm, which is 
optimized towards a six 

1070
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,000
development. 
All right. 

1071
00:58:42,100 --> 00:58:47,200
And When we launched the balance
between these two proof of work 

1072
00:58:47,500 --> 00:58:52,500
was that 90% of mining rewards 
was going to the GPU and 10% of 

1073
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:57,100
mining rewards are going to the 
Asic tuned algorithm over time 

1074
00:58:57,700 --> 00:59:00,900
in the course of two years. 
This is all this balance is 

1075
00:59:00,900 --> 00:59:04,600
going to shift completely. 
So that 100% of mining rewards 

1076
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:10,100
are going to Asic tuned. 
So, in two years time, the idea 

1077
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:13,000
is that everybody is going to be
mining on the Asic to And 

1078
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,700
algorithm. 
Originally as you pointed out 

1079
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:21,600
there was one proof-of-work 
could recycle and when John 

1080
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,000
first initially review of the 
workout Ryan who was believed 

1081
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,700
that it could run, you know that
you could mine efficiently or 

1082
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:29,700
competitively using a mobile 
phone. 

1083
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:36,300
It's a but overtime. 
Optimizations were discovered 

1084
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,300
that basically meant that CPU 
mining was ruled out as 

1085
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:47,700
efficient and it was like a big 
advantage Just for basic minors 

1086
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,800
to, you know, there was a lot of
opportunities to build efficient

1087
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,700
basic miners using the cuckoo 
cycle algorithm. 

1088
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,200
Now, the reason why we moved 
away from from a single proof of

1089
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,800
work into to prove it works was 
that this algorithm was known 

1090
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,600
and it was available widely 
known before we launch the coin.

1091
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:08,600
And we had received several very
credible indications, that a six

1092
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,500
were being built for this 
algorithm which would add day 

1093
01:00:12,500 --> 01:00:15,900
one of the launch of the coin. 
Completely taken over the hash 

1094
01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:19,000
power and kind of centralized 
entire mining which we didn't 

1095
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:20,600
really want. 
We don't even think that was a 

1096
01:00:20,607 --> 01:00:23,500
good idea. 
We do however see that because 

1097
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:26,400
of all these you know time 
doesn't stand still and what 

1098
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,900
we've learned since you know, 
John first published at that 

1099
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,300
algorithm and since the 
beginning of Grimm is that you 

1100
01:00:33,308 --> 01:00:36,200
know Asics are inevitable and 
there will always be a way to 

1101
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,000
kind of do if optimizations and 
even if you're not going to 

1102
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,500
optimize on the Asics, you're 
going to be able to optimize the

1103
01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:44,900
guy mining with a GPU at home. 
It's not going to be as Isn't 

1104
01:00:44,900 --> 01:00:48,900
this as the person who's 
connected to a dam in China and 

1105
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:51,700
has 10,000 gpus. 
So there's going to be a lot of 

1106
01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:54,100
efficiencies and that's 
inevitable. 

1107
01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:01,500
However, trying to launch a coin
in a fair manner, in 2019 puts a

1108
01:01:01,508 --> 01:01:04,400
couple of problems to that. 
So you need to have a way to 

1109
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:08,400
basically bootstrap the network 
in a way that gives people some 

1110
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,600
chance to mind fairly to the 
point where, you know, you over 

1111
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,700
time, you can gradually shift 
over to To this, Asic friendly 

1112
01:01:15,700 --> 01:01:20,000
algorithm and give a sick 
manufacturers enough. 

1113
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,900
Leeway in enough time to prepare
for that and have multiple a 

1114
01:01:23,900 --> 01:01:25,300
seat. 
Manufacturers may be billed at 

1115
01:01:25,300 --> 01:01:29,000
the same time in order to create
as competitive of a Marketplace 

1116
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:33,600
as possible for these police 
Asics, it was very kind of long 

1117
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,400
answer, but that's kind of my 
view wanted Michael, you know, 

1118
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,300
if you have anything to add The 
thing about the Grant in our 

1119
01:01:41,300 --> 01:01:44,600
process, the work is a sex are 
going to happen anyways and that

1120
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,700
doesn't matter. 
You can you can try and avoid 

1121
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:47,900
it. 
You can try and design an 

1122
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:50,900
algorithm that you know, can't 
be done, it won't happen. 

1123
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:52,300
They're going to happen at some 
point. 

1124
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,200
So, the best thing you can do is
try and make it as fair for 

1125
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,600
everybody and try and actually 
make it your algorithm simple to

1126
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:06,400
specify for a six manufacturers 
to allow more of them to allow 

1127
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,500
Market. 
I mean a system cells aren't 

1128
01:02:08,500 --> 01:02:12,300
necessarily They're actually, 
you know, the closer you get to 

1129
01:02:12,308 --> 01:02:13,400
sound. 
This is something again, we're 

1130
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,800
back to Andrew Colstrip. 
A tree called the thermodynamic 

1131
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,400
limit. 
If you had a machine that was 

1132
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,600
absolutely. 
The most optimized it could 

1133
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,400
possibly could be her 
proof-of-work, algorithm, and 

1134
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,900
everyone has one of those 
machines then every time that's 

1135
01:02:24,900 --> 01:02:27,100
actually the best. 
The best case for mining there 

1136
01:02:27,100 --> 01:02:31,300
is so by encouraging AC 
development and hopefully there 

1137
01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:33,800
will be a you know a few options
to choose from they'll be 

1138
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,600
readily available. 
This should actually help secure

1139
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,800
the network as I was yeah. 
Lost my point. 

1140
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,000
There is like mining 886 
themselves aren't evil. 

1141
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,600
It's when they're all under the 
control of a single entity or a 

1142
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,600
single Corporation, then that's 
a centralization pressure. 

1143
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,800
So by trying to encourage as 
many to Pez many Hardware 

1144
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,200
developers becomes develop a sex
and we're hoping for a more fair

1145
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,600
market. 
So, you went with them, the to 

1146
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,700
proof of work system in order to
ensure continuous 

1147
01:03:03,700 --> 01:03:06,300
decentralization throughout the 
life of grain. 

1148
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:11,100
But there are disadvantages that
come with proof of work. 

1149
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:16,700
And this is why many people are 
talking about switching to proof

1150
01:03:16,700 --> 01:03:19,100
of stake for many different 
chains. 

1151
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:23,100
Is this something this, that is 
in a concern for you as grin 

1152
01:03:23,100 --> 01:03:25,300
developers as well? 
Are you firmly committed to 

1153
01:03:25,300 --> 01:03:27,800
proof-of-work? 
Now, we're very firmly committed

1154
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,900
to proof of work. 
Moment, nobody has proven that 

1155
01:03:30,900 --> 01:03:34,200
proof of stake. 
Will secure that will secure 

1156
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:35,700
network as well as proof of 
work. 

1157
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,200
Nobody has proven that, you 
know, it is entirely Fair like 

1158
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,900
it very much rewards. 
People who already have a steak 

1159
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:44,800
and proof of stake and it Sono. 
The, the green team at the 

1160
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,800
moment is very much proof of 
work only. 

1161
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,200
Yeah. 
As someone who's been working on

1162
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,500
proof of stake for like, you 
know, two years. 

1163
01:03:51,500 --> 01:03:53,300
Now, I actually completely agree
with you. 

1164
01:03:53,300 --> 01:03:55,700
I don't think there's been any 
evidence that like proof of 

1165
01:03:55,707 --> 01:03:59,100
stake and properly secure 
network and especially It seems 

1166
01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:03,200
that like you know grin seems to
be one of I've heard the story 

1167
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,700
where it's like you know didn't 
seem to be like the next best 

1168
01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:09,200
bet at money other than Bitcoin.
And like you know if you want to

1169
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,900
create decentralized money you 
know you need to have had a 

1170
01:04:11,908 --> 01:04:15,500
similar origin story and 
Anonymous founder and like and 

1171
01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:19,200
so if you're creating I just 
don't think proof of stake works

1172
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,000
properly as an issuance 
mechanism for, you know who 

1173
01:04:22,300 --> 01:04:25,400
it's, you know, who knows what 
will be in 10 years time in 

1174
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,000
general that the team and the 
community in general, General is

1175
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,000
open to any new technology as 
long as it's kind of, makes 

1176
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,400
sense. 
And that is at this stage proof 

1177
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,500
of stake, doesn't make sense as 
you correctly pointed out as 

1178
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:39,900
well, you couldn't, we couldn't 
have launched with conclusive 

1179
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:41,900
proof of stake because it 
creates huge problems of how you

1180
01:04:41,900 --> 01:04:45,300
distribute the coins fairly. 
And at that point, you know, in 

1181
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:48,400
terms of actually initial 
distribution of coins, as far as

1182
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,700
I know, I haven't heard of any 
better ways to do it fairly 

1183
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:53,100
this. 
The proof of work. 

1184
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,100
So speaking of this like initial
distribution and issuance so I 

1185
01:04:58,107 --> 01:05:01,600
guess two part question here. 
One is, you know, this issuance 

1186
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,100
mechanism. 
You know, you guys have an 

1187
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:06,700
experiment, like a new monetary 
policy that I haven't seen it. 

1188
01:05:06,700 --> 01:05:09,000
I've known the other coin. 
I've seen this like similar 

1189
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,700
monetary policy and is Dogecoin,
but essentially this idea of 

1190
01:05:12,700 --> 01:05:16,700
Unlimited Supply where it's but 
constant issuance, so it's like,

1191
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,800
you know, you have this like, 
it's fun, like little time is 

1192
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:24,100
money meme going on where it's 
like 11 grin per Canon or 60 

1193
01:05:24,100 --> 01:05:27,700
Grand per minute and but until 
the end of time, so like there's

1194
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:30,700
no fixed cap. 
Like there is in like Bitcoin, 

1195
01:05:30,700 --> 01:05:33,800
or like coin, or any of these 
other money currencies that are 

1196
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,200
trying to become base money, for
example, and so, kind of what 

1197
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:43,000
led you down to what what who 
made that decision of like 

1198
01:05:43,300 --> 01:05:48,100
trying this new policy as to how
I think. 

1199
01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:51,400
It's something that the team 
arrived at actually fairly early

1200
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,100
on in development. 
When we're talking about various

1201
01:05:55,100 --> 01:05:57,000
models and schedules, I've how 
to do this. 

1202
01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:04,800
I think most importantly, okay, 
a few things, I mean, this is a 

1203
01:06:04,808 --> 01:06:07,200
big can of worms and you get all
sorts of hate mail for any time 

1204
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:12,200
you start talking about this. 
The model that came up 

1205
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,700
originally by Satoshi in 
Bitcoin. 

1206
01:06:14,900 --> 01:06:17,300
As in there were going to be a 
fixed number of Bitcoins. 

1207
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,800
It's going to be an entirely 
deflation area system. 

1208
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:25,100
That's, that's great to know. 
There seems to be a wide help. 

1209
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:27,500
Widely held belief out there 
that this was handed down to him

1210
01:06:27,500 --> 01:06:28,500
on a tablet. 
From God. 

1211
01:06:28,500 --> 01:06:30,900
At some point in, this is the 
way it should be for all time. 

1212
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,300
There's a lot of problems with 
that approach and you've seen 

1213
01:06:33,300 --> 01:06:35,700
that in Bitcoin. 
Everybody seen this with the 

1214
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:37,400
hyper deflation that you see in 
Bitcoin. 

1215
01:06:38,100 --> 01:06:42,200
Now, you know, the paper said, 
was supposed to be a digital 

1216
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,100
cash and it's turned into a 
store of value and that's the 

1217
01:06:45,100 --> 01:06:48,800
story now so that approach is 
quite problematic. 

1218
01:06:48,900 --> 01:06:53,200
The other thing is nobody yet 
knows whether a fee Market on 

1219
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:57,700
its own is going to be enough to
secure a network when the fees 

1220
01:06:57,700 --> 01:07:01,500
from Bitcoin become too low. 
So we, we think that the 

1221
01:07:01,500 --> 01:07:03,400
approach we've taken, which is 
just a constant block 

1222
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:08,900
commission, 60 grams per block, 
once a minute forever and by. 

1223
01:07:08,900 --> 01:07:11,600
And by the way, this This is 
actually quite conservative as 

1224
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,700
far as putting a currency out 
there. 

1225
01:07:14,700 --> 01:07:18,100
I mean the inflation rate 
becomes 0 you know 30 years on 

1226
01:07:18,100 --> 01:07:19,500
and you're barely making an 
imagined. 

1227
01:07:19,500 --> 01:07:22,900
If you can only print 60 US 
dollars a minute like you'd have

1228
01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:28,500
hyper deflation. 
You know, this is actually a 

1229
01:07:28,508 --> 01:07:31,400
rather conservative approach and
you know it is, it is new and 

1230
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,200
the cryptocurrency world. 
I don't think it's that radical.

1231
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:39,200
I think it's easy to understand.
I think it will. 

1232
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,700
It will help secure the network 
when fees run out, it will help.

1233
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:47,900
It will help people to use Grim 
as as money as opposed to 

1234
01:07:47,900 --> 01:07:49,700
hoarding it because they're 
afraid is going to be worth far 

1235
01:07:49,700 --> 01:07:51,500
more tomorrow. 
So yeah. 

1236
01:07:51,500 --> 01:07:54,900
So that's that's kind of where 
we're can't speak for the entire

1237
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:56,400
team. 
With that's basically where we 

1238
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,800
stand on it at this point. 
And ultimately this is very 

1239
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,200
simple, right? 
It's very, very easy, to 

1240
01:08:02,207 --> 01:08:05,400
explain. 
Very easy to understand, it's 

1241
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,500
hard to kind of I haven't seen a
lot of arguments as you know, 

1242
01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:14,400
Well constructed as to why it is
a problem and since then it is 

1243
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,100
you know, very simple structure.
We like it. 

1244
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:19,600
It's elegant, right. 
Yeah. 

1245
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:21,600
You know, I think this whole 
time is money, meme. 

1246
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,200
I think actually it will work. 
I think it's easy to explain 

1247
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,300
and, you know, I think there's a
lot it'll be very interesting to

1248
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:30,200
see how this farestart plays out
like, you know. 

1249
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,800
But I don't think we've, I think
the last time we saw something 

1250
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:36,399
similar to a fair star, but 
clearly not, as fair was like 

1251
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:39,500
this, he cash start. 
And even that was you know, they

1252
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,800
Have their whole like developer 
fun side of things. 

1253
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:46,000
But, you know, and I remember 
like, what happened when I 

1254
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,000
remember my roommate, my 
ex-roommate. 

1255
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,700
She like, no, it's really hyped 
about the grand Mining. 

1256
01:08:51,700 --> 01:08:53,399
And I know like there was like, 
I don't know. 

1257
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:57,399
I've heard a crazy figures about
like, VCS, like putting hundreds

1258
01:08:57,399 --> 01:08:59,899
of millions of dollars or 
something into, I don't know 

1259
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,500
that much but crazy amounts of 
money into like, you know, 

1260
01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:08,399
mining Ventures very early on in
Grand when it like, started with

1261
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:11,000
zero Supply. 
So It'll be very interesting to 

1262
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,899
see how this new farestart and 
issuance mechanism works out. 

1263
01:09:15,899 --> 01:09:18,399
So now that we're kind of 
drawing towards the close of the

1264
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:19,899
episode. 
No. 

1265
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,500
Just want to talk. 
Maybe ask a few one or two 

1266
01:09:22,500 --> 01:09:25,800
questions, a little bit about 
know, a bit about the future of 

1267
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,500
grain and what the future 
roadmap is and whatnot. 

1268
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,200
And so, one of the questions 
that, you know, often comes up 

1269
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,100
about grain, is that in order to
make this memo wimble, Feature 

1270
01:09:36,100 --> 01:09:40,399
work, we kind of had to remove 
Bitcoin script Because, you 

1271
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:43,100
know, you can't it's not part, 
it doesn't work with 

1272
01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:46,100
aggregation. 
And so, how will we, what is the

1273
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:49,300
plan here for? 
You know, does this mean that 

1274
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,200
you know, is it possible to do? 
Multi cigs on undrained? 

1275
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,500
Will it be possible to do H 
TLC's Atomic swaps? 

1276
01:09:56,900 --> 01:09:59,300
Is any of this possible on the 
road map? 

1277
01:10:00,100 --> 01:10:02,000
Absolutely. 
As a matter of fact, Atomic 

1278
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,300
swaps with both. 
Are you want and Bitcoin have 

1279
01:10:04,300 --> 01:10:08,300
been done before? 
Multisig is definitely, it's 

1280
01:10:08,300 --> 01:10:10,700
possible. 
We know how to It just, I don't 

1281
01:10:10,700 --> 01:10:12,900
think it's been implemented in 
the code, but to be certainly 

1282
01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:17,900
have kind of the foundation in 
there to do that other stuff, 

1283
01:10:17,900 --> 01:10:21,200
you know, smart contracts, we've
talked about script descriptive 

1284
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:23,800
it. 
Those are essentially ways of 

1285
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:27,300
kind of enforcing unfortunate, 
the usual conditions you'd be 

1286
01:10:27,308 --> 01:10:29,700
enforcing in a contract without 
having to have a contract in 

1287
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:32,100
particular in place. 
So, yeah, they're definitely 

1288
01:10:32,100 --> 01:10:33,900
possible. 
I won't say we have the answers 

1289
01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:35,600
to all of them at this point. 
There's certainly a lot of 

1290
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,500
research outstanding and if you 
kind of look through our site 

1291
01:10:38,500 --> 01:10:41,300
and what we have there, You know
there's a there's a list there 

1292
01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:45,300
of technologies that we're 
looking into and researching how

1293
01:10:45,300 --> 01:10:47,200
to do this. 
And yeah that's basically the 

1294
01:10:47,208 --> 01:10:50,600
future in the future is going to
be for us will be, you know, 

1295
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,100
building the tool to support 
community building on top of 

1296
01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:57,400
grin and on top of member wimble
as well as you know, slow and 

1297
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,800
steady research as to you know 
other Technologies become 

1298
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:06,200
important in here again like 
Atomic swaps Spirits some you 

1299
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,600
know lightning like Network on 
top of that. 

1300
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,100
So yeah that's that's It's kind 
of very briefly what our future 

1301
01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:15,800
looks like. 
And so back to that question 

1302
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:21,000
about the Fair start and like, 
you know, so does he cash team 

1303
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,200
with their Fair start? 
They funded themselves by giving

1304
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:30,000
themselves a like a developer 
cut of all the block Awards, you

1305
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,900
know, Satoshi funded his Fair 
start by like, you know, do it 

1306
01:11:34,900 --> 01:11:38,600
like mining like crazy when like
Bitcoin first came out and 

1307
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,200
because it just wasn't very 
popular. 

1308
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:43,400
But like I said, you know, lots 
of outside money. 

1309
01:11:43,500 --> 01:11:46,200
I was poured into grin mining 
from very early on. 

1310
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:50,800
And so, what is the funding 
model here? 

1311
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,500
Now, for the grin developers, 
how is this going to be 

1312
01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:56,500
sustainable? 
There's no pre mind nothing like

1313
01:11:56,500 --> 01:11:59,900
that. 
So, Grim is 100% Community 

1314
01:11:59,900 --> 01:12:04,100
funded we live by. 
I mean, Michael is funded 

1315
01:12:04,100 --> 01:12:07,600
through donations. 
The there is a debt fund and a 

1316
01:12:07,608 --> 01:12:11,700
security audit fund the raise 
donations for for specific 

1317
01:12:11,700 --> 01:12:16,700
purposes. 
But Relies 100% on donations 

1318
01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:19,800
from the community and from from
Miners and other companies 

1319
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,600
active in the space to 
contribute. 

1320
01:12:22,500 --> 01:12:25,100
And and I think, you know, you 
touched upon a very important 

1321
01:12:25,100 --> 01:12:29,600
thing there that, yeah, you 
know, hot, what is fair and, and

1322
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:35,800
you know what is, what is a fair
launched and I think green is, 

1323
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,800
has probably been one of the 
more first launches that have 

1324
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:41,600
been around because it's simply 
because of the fact that, you 

1325
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,300
know, it had a lot of attention.
Lot of eyeballs on it from day 

1326
01:12:45,300 --> 01:12:48,800
one, which a lot of other 
projects really didn't have 

1327
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:53,600
including Bitcoin early on and 
you know, equal opportunity 

1328
01:12:53,900 --> 01:12:57,800
doesn't mean equal outcome and 
you know, we welcome anybody to 

1329
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,100
come in mind, you know, whether 
the Reese's or not or whether 

1330
01:13:01,100 --> 01:13:04,300
their users, and whether it, 
welcome any, any anybody to come

1331
01:13:04,300 --> 01:13:08,900
and participate in the project, 
and that's the strength, I think

1332
01:13:09,300 --> 01:13:11,600
it's the reason why I got 
involved, you know, a year ago, 

1333
01:13:12,300 --> 01:13:14,700
because it's very easy. 
Participate is very easy to 

1334
01:13:14,700 --> 01:13:18,500
become active in the community, 
when there's nobody else kind of

1335
01:13:18,500 --> 01:13:21,700
making, you know, having an 
advantage of you earning more 

1336
01:13:21,700 --> 01:13:25,400
money or something because of 
your contribution, anybody who's

1337
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:27,800
here and want to contribute is 
actually just doing that because

1338
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,200
they believe in the project and 
they want to do so. 

1339
01:13:30,900 --> 01:13:33,400
And, and, and that makes it very
easy for new people to come in, 

1340
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,100
come in and get involved. 
It becomes also a self-selection

1341
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:39,000
exercise. 
I noticed like, we have a great 

1342
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,500
community and I think part of it
is because there's no 

1343
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:44,700
get-rich-quick scheme here. 
And you know, we don't have to 

1344
01:13:44,700 --> 01:13:49,700
pay people to do the work, it 
takes care of itself and 

1345
01:13:49,700 --> 01:13:52,400
ultimately, as well, you know, 
I'm not some people ask, you 

1346
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:55,800
know, there's always this kind 
of quick questions. 

1347
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,000
Is that the right way? 
Is the sustainable, will it 

1348
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,800
last? 
And so on, well, it's completely

1349
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,200
up to the community, right? 
If nobody wants to fund us then,

1350
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,500
you know, maybe maybe there will
be fewer development developers 

1351
01:14:06,500 --> 01:14:09,900
unless development going on, if 
nobody cares about that, but I 

1352
01:14:09,907 --> 01:14:13,000
guess it wasn't very popular in 
the first place, but if people 

1353
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,500
do care, About that. 
And they want to actually take a

1354
01:14:15,508 --> 01:14:18,100
grin forward, then anybody can 
participate in do that. 

1355
01:14:19,100 --> 01:14:21,600
So it's like a it's like a 
non-issue for me in a way. 

1356
01:14:22,300 --> 01:14:24,100
So you don't see any issues 
with. 

1357
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,900
I mean I can see how this story 
right now is super peeling this.

1358
01:14:27,900 --> 01:14:33,400
Oh, it's Wind currently, no one 
actually makes huge amounts of 

1359
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:37,400
monies building businesses on 
grin, but once they're actually 

1360
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:43,000
active people who actively 
benefit from the grid Network 

1361
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,800
and build business on businesses
on it. 

1362
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:52,200
Do you think the the volunteers 
will still be there to actually 

1363
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:55,600
build the infrastructure where 
they feel exploited? 

1364
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:57,800
And with us turned into a 
tragedy of the commons 

1365
01:14:57,800 --> 01:14:59,800
situation. 
I don't know. 

1366
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:01,400
I think, I think it depends a 
little bit. 

1367
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:03,600
I think it, but I think it 
depends on the businesses, how 

1368
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,700
they act in the community. 
What what kind of how they 

1369
01:15:06,700 --> 01:15:10,700
operate as you know, if I was 
starting a business, you know, 

1370
01:15:10,700 --> 01:15:13,700
wondering you know the stuff 
we're doing for example, with 

1371
01:15:13,700 --> 01:15:16,700
with green box and Baltimore, 32
all fully open for anybody to 

1372
01:15:16,700 --> 01:15:20,100
use. 
If you're a business and you 

1373
01:15:20,100 --> 01:15:22,900
make money off grid, it's kind 
of in your interest to 

1374
01:15:22,900 --> 01:15:24,400
contribute to the default, 
right? 

1375
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:26,600
Because you know it's your 
protocol that you making money 

1376
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:27,800
from. 
So it kind of makes sense for 

1377
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,100
you to ensure that somebody's 
looking The protocol the 

1378
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:32,100
protocol level. 
So for what we're seeing is that

1379
01:15:32,100 --> 01:15:37,300
exchanges mining pools, you 
know, proof-of-work, mining 

1380
01:15:37,300 --> 01:15:41,100
software providers are 
contributing and they're making 

1381
01:15:41,100 --> 01:15:42,700
contributions. 
I can't say whether it's going 

1382
01:15:42,700 --> 01:15:45,500
to be enough or not. 
It's very early days we'll see 

1383
01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:50,500
about that but you know it 
really is up to everybody else 

1384
01:15:50,500 --> 01:15:53,800
everybody involved to actually 
put excuse me to contribute and 

1385
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,700
and I don't I'm not too worried 
about it and and then you know, 

1386
01:15:57,700 --> 01:16:00,500
just because there are companies
that there that make money, 

1387
01:16:00,700 --> 01:16:02,400
right? 
We saw they should be doing that

1388
01:16:02,500 --> 01:16:05,600
if they're offering value to the
community, that shouldn't 

1389
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:09,900
preclude Community member to to 
contribute if they want to on 

1390
01:16:09,900 --> 01:16:12,800
their spare time, on something 
else, some other corner of the 

1391
01:16:13,100 --> 01:16:16,000
of the protocol but the 
difference is I guess with other

1392
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,200
setups is that if we for example
as developers we're taking 

1393
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:24,600
twenty percent tax on all coins.
Ever mind that creates this very

1394
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:29,000
weird relationship between us 
and the rest of the community. 

1395
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:30,800
Right? 
Because it's also something we 

1396
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:34,400
have a stake in improving the 
value of the coin which is not 

1397
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,700
necessarily what is in the 
interest of the community. 

1398
01:16:37,300 --> 01:16:39,500
Right? 
We we suddenly if we get 20% of 

1399
01:16:39,500 --> 01:16:42,000
all the coins then it's really 
in our interest to just raise 

1400
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,300
the price of the coin all the 
time and the kind of focus on 

1401
01:16:44,300 --> 01:16:47,200
that whereas maybe what we 
should be looking at is adoption

1402
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,100
or you know, getting it making 
more users using the coin that 

1403
01:16:51,100 --> 01:16:52,600
doesn't necessarily drive up the
price of the coin. 

1404
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,800
Do you see what I mean? 
It kind of has like, a weird. 

1405
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:00,800
Assertive alignment. 
Yeah, I agree that it's really 

1406
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,700
difficult to find Morris that in
Center that the line incentives.

1407
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:13,300
Well, but saying at you trust in
the good in companies to me that

1408
01:17:13,300 --> 01:17:17,600
that seems it didn't Eve. 
I mean, if you look at the off 

1409
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:22,100
chain word, for instance, Apple 
massively bills on public 

1410
01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:25,800
infrastructure and applicant 
only exist because there are 

1411
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,900
structures. 
Structures that preceded it like

1412
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:34,400
the the judicial system and the 
road infrastructure and the 

1413
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:43,300
internet but other major 
corporations have ways of 

1414
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:49,300
circumventing paying tax and and
I mean they in principle they're

1415
01:17:49,300 --> 01:17:52,800
liable to pay tax but somehow 
they still end up paying very 

1416
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,300
little or close to not know 
taxes, right? 

1417
01:17:55,500 --> 01:17:58,100
I mean I can't comment on that. 
I can't comment on whether apple

1418
01:17:58,100 --> 01:18:02,500
pays a lot of tax for not, but 
but I guess the point is that 

1419
01:18:02,900 --> 01:18:06,000
generally speaking, the whole 
purpose is green as a project 

1420
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,600
was to be very minimal on the 
like the top layer protocol. 

1421
01:18:08,700 --> 01:18:12,100
Right, in order for that to kind
of make sense intuitively. 

1422
01:18:12,100 --> 01:18:15,200
It means that, you know, other 
entities, underneath need to 

1423
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,700
kind of step up to the plate and
deliver products and services to

1424
01:18:18,700 --> 01:18:21,500
help to facilitate that because 
it's very minimal of the top 

1425
01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:23,700
layer because it's very minimal 
the top layer. 

1426
01:18:23,700 --> 01:18:27,500
It shouldn't be needing. 20% of 
all the coins of my mind to 

1427
01:18:27,500 --> 01:18:31,000
sustain itself, right? 
It's the whole that's the kind 

1428
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:34,000
of the whole idea of it. 
I appreciate the idea and I 

1429
01:18:34,008 --> 01:18:36,900
think it's super idealistic and 
I really hope it works. 

1430
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:41,100
So I'm not holding against you. 
I'm just, yeah, I'm just, I'm 

1431
01:18:41,100 --> 01:18:45,200
just asking whether your work 
and I also like, you know, 

1432
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,600
companies that can approach us 
and they kind of say, hey, we 

1433
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,200
want to get involved. 
We want to do this, want to do 

1434
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:52,000
that. 
How can we do? 

1435
01:18:52,100 --> 01:18:53,300
How can we get more involved in 
Grid? 

1436
01:18:53,500 --> 01:18:56,500
And I say that like if you 
contribute to the community that

1437
01:18:56,500 --> 01:19:00,300
fund, The greatest way to create
Goodwill and add in marketing 

1438
01:19:00,300 --> 01:19:03,700
for your company in, in the 
community right by just kind of 

1439
01:19:03,700 --> 01:19:07,000
making active contributions. 
And of course, companies can 

1440
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,000
choose not to do that. 
But mean that stands for 

1441
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,800
themselves and I know, you know,
I understand that you might 

1442
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,500
think it sounds idealistic or 
naive, but I actually don't 

1443
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:17,900
think there's a better way to do
this. 

1444
01:19:18,700 --> 01:19:20,900
I don't think it's better to 
crew to stop. 

1445
01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:22,300
It's like a death tax or 
something. 

1446
01:19:22,900 --> 01:19:26,300
I don't think that's gonna lead 
to longer term success. 

1447
01:19:26,900 --> 01:19:29,900
For grain and what its long-term
objectives are. 

1448
01:19:30,700 --> 01:19:32,800
If you start off with a Dev 
talks and that's how you're 

1449
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,100
going to fund, then you will 
always be painted with 

1450
01:19:35,100 --> 01:19:38,000
developers to work on the chain 
for those reasons like, why am I

1451
01:19:38,008 --> 01:19:41,600
going to put my time into make 
someone else to have someone 

1452
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:45,200
else profit off the end of it? 
I know it kind of sounds a bit 

1453
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:48,400
naive and there seems to be I've
seen criticism of the internet 

1454
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:49,500
again. 
No it's not going to work 

1455
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,900
because you need to pay 
developer, but I think we've 

1456
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:53,500
it's been around for two years 
now. 

1457
01:19:53,500 --> 01:19:56,700
The interest is still growing 
personally. 

1458
01:19:56,700 --> 01:20:00,000
I'm I mean, I've been funded for
for the past year and unfunded 

1459
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,300
again for the next next six or 
seven months to work on a 

1460
01:20:03,308 --> 01:20:06,300
full-time in order at a regular 
developer salary. 

1461
01:20:07,900 --> 01:20:11,100
And I think, and this is early 
days. 

1462
01:20:11,100 --> 01:20:13,200
I said before the chamber's even
launched in people had their 

1463
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,300
businesses that they were going 
to build on top of great. 

1464
01:20:16,300 --> 01:20:19,200
So I think the early signs are 
encouraging anyhow. 

1465
01:20:20,300 --> 01:20:22,900
I think what we're seeing with 
exact exchanges is an example, 

1466
01:20:22,900 --> 01:20:24,100
right? 
We're not actually. 

1467
01:20:24,100 --> 01:20:27,700
I mean we welcome and encourage 
all exchanges to to list us that

1468
01:20:27,700 --> 01:20:30,100
want to and if they have 
questions will help them and so 

1469
01:20:30,100 --> 01:20:32,400
on but we're not really chasing 
exchanges. 

1470
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:34,500
We're not applying for 
exchanges, we're not filling out

1471
01:20:34,500 --> 01:20:37,500
any documents, there's no legal 
entity, nobody can give any 

1472
01:20:37,500 --> 01:20:39,900
money for listing fees or 
anything to exchanges, because 

1473
01:20:39,900 --> 01:20:41,700
we're broke, we don't have any 
money, right? 

1474
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:46,100
So instead of changes list us 
without us asking and without 

1475
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:50,200
any preconditions, but we had 
like a pot of gold. 

1476
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,600
That we were sitting on which 
was like equating to a chunk of 

1477
01:20:53,700 --> 01:20:56,300
the total coins, mind the head, 
think the story would have been 

1478
01:20:56,300 --> 01:20:58,100
very different. 
Yeah. 

1479
01:20:58,300 --> 01:21:01,700
So I mean, and certainly they 
have been open source projects 

1480
01:21:01,700 --> 01:21:05,100
that have been going on for tens
of years and they're still 

1481
01:21:05,100 --> 01:21:08,400
around. 
So I'm interested to see what 

1482
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:10,900
the future holds for you guys. 
Thank you for coming on. 

1483
01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:14,000
Thank you for having us. 
Thank you very much. 

1484
01:21:16,700 --> 01:21:18,500
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

1485
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:20,400
We release new episodes every 
week. 

1486
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,800
You can find And subscribe to 
the show on iTunes Spotify, 

1487
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:26,900
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 
you listen to podcast. 

1488
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,000
And if you have a Google home or
Alexa device, you can tell it to

1489
01:21:30,008 --> 01:21:33,000
listen to the latest episode of 
the epicenter podcast, but 

1490
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:36,100
epicenter, .t V, / subscribe for
a full list of places where you 

1491
01:21:36,108 --> 01:21:38,700
can watch and listen, while 
you're there, be sure to sign up

1492
01:21:38,708 --> 01:21:41,500
for the newsletter so you get 
new episodes in your inbox as 

1493
01:21:41,500 --> 01:21:44,900
they're released if you want to 
interact with us guests or other

1494
01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:48,200
podcast listeners, you can Us on
Twitter and please leave us a 

1495
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:50,700
review on iTunes. 
It helps to be Poncho and we're 

1496
01:21:50,700 --> 01:21:53,800
always happy to be there but 
thanks so much and we look 

1497
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:48,000
forward to being back next year.
Us on Twitter and please leave 

1498
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:50,700
us a review on iTunes. 
It helps to be Poncho and we're 

1499
01:21:50,700 --> 01:21:53,800
always happy to be there but 
thanks so much and we look 

1500
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:54,800
forward to being back next year.