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Welcome to epicenter the show 
which talks about the 

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Technologies projects and people
driving to centralization. 

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And the blockchain revolution. 
I'm Felix. 

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And today, we're speaking with 
deaf Burrell who is working on 

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developer relations at Jump 
crypto, a core contributor to 

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Wormhole Wormhole is a cross 
chain messaging. 

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That allows users to access 
applications across networks. 

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Before we talk with deaf about 
Wormhole, we'd like to tell tell

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Community manager, to help grow 
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to the next level. 
If you're passionate about 

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crypto and creating great 
content, we want to hear from 

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you full details, can be found 
at the careers page that we're 

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going to link in the show notes.
Please share with anyone who you

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think might be a good fit for 
this role. 

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So today I'm really excited to 
join. 

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Be joined by, Dave was working 
with all. 

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That's a core. 
Contributor with Wormhole 

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Wormhole is exciting Network and
cross chain protocol. 

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Generally, we start these 
episodes by introducing Our 

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Guest so high def. 
Hi. 

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Happy to be here. 
Right after your core 

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contributor to Wormhole with 
jump, usually at the start of 

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the episode we often try to find
out how it our guests get into 

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crypto. 
And in this case, I'll 

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specifically, how did you get 
into working with jump on 

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Wormhole? 
Yeah, so I'm one of the very old

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people in crypto. 
I got into crypto and like 2013 

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in high school. 
This was before we even called 

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crypto. 
But you know blockchain this is 

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In the Bitcoin days and I got 
involved with an organization 

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called the blockchain education,
Network back home back. 

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Then it was like the Bitcoin 
education Network called Ben and

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I used to organize events with 
like all the disparate college 

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students all around the 
universities in the United 

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States. 
So we could do meetups and 

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hackathons and so on. 
And I got really into 

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decentralized identities. 
Your knowledge proves all that 

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kind of stuff fast forward. 
I've built a couple of companies

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and Eventually I ended up 
joining jump as a developer 

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relations, but one of the most 
interesting facts is that while 

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I was doing I've been doing 
developer advocacy for a long 

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time. 
While I was working in 

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decentralized identity and 
building my startups. 

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I was also going around to over 
200 300 hackathon events 

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sponsoring mentoring or 
participating at dressed up in a

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full space suit teaching 
students, how to write like, 

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salinity code as if it was the 
word of God and don't like the, 

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this is Coolest thing. 
So, one of my greatest 

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achievements, one of the things 
that I'm really proud of is that

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there are hundreds, if not 
thousands of Engineers whose 

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first ever taste of blockchain 
Technology was through one of my

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workshops. 
So taking all of that, all of 

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that experience, at all of that 
history, with crypto and all of 

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that, you know, context around 
how crypto was formed. 

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I eventually applied for a job. 
Jump through my friend Anthony 

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Ramirez, who mentioned that they
were looking for. 

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Core contributors or what, you 
know, one of the projects that 

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they feel really passionate 
about which is Wormhole and a 

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wormhole again is across 
messaging platform. 

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Now, I got really excited about 
Wormhole because I'm an engineer

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and I love I love tackling a lot
of different problems. 

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So I was coming from solidity 
world but I wanted to have a lot

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of different like I wanted to go
into different ecosystems. 

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And so Wormhole is an 
interesting challenge where as a

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Engineer. 
I don't just have to, I don't 

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just do what. 
I don't have to learn smart 

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ecosystem. 
I have to like really be on my 

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feet dancing and learning a lot 
of different challenging 

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ecosystems. 
And, you know, whether that's 

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rust for Solana, move for aptus 
and soui costume. 

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Awesome for injective or what, 
you know, any of these 

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ecosystems and picking that 
knowledge up and picking those 

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architectures up. 
So I ended up at Jump. 

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We're doing core contribution 
for Wormhole back in February of

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this year. 
Yeah, that's a amazing history. 

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I didn't know that you were have
been around for so long. 

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That's that's super cool. 
To have guests. 

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There that are like, dating way 
back and have seen a lot. 

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I'm sure you took a lot of 
lessons away from that. 

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And that's our guest Casita de 
you. 

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Don't wear a spacesuit anymore, 
but maybe, maybe I can make a 

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return. 
I still got that. 

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I've still got my space 
painting, I don't know up there 

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if you see it. 
Yeah, yeah, awesome. 

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Yeah, nice face, but I'm cool. 
All right, yeah, definitely, I 

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think, yeah, one of those super 
interesting things, I think of a

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wormhole or Generally about the 
space. 

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You're you're in is like you 
said, you touching upon so many 

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different network ecosystems, 
that's actually quite similar to

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what we're working on and I 
think that's one of the nice 

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spots in the space, but I guess,
before we dive into that even 

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more, maybe you can like, 
explain to us, you know, what, 

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what specifically, what is 
wormhole in your words and then 

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we continue from there. 
Yeah. 

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So Wormhole is a cross chain 
messaging layer and a lot of 

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people confuse this will confuse
These two things, they confuse 

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Wormhole and portal. 
And I'll talk about what those 

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things are separately in just a 
second. 

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But Wormhole basically is a way 
for us in layman's terms. 

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It's a way for users to not care
about developer choices. 

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And what I mean by that is when 
we look at blockchains, we look 

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at blockchains as different 
infrastructure providers. 

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Just like in web to we have 
Microsoft Azure, we have AWS, we

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have Google cloud in And we have
our Google Cloud platform in 

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what three, we have Solana 
etherium polygon, injective, all

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of these different chains. 
These are all infrastructure, 

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user should not care about what 
infrastructure, the developer 

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chooses to deploy their 
application. 

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When I go to my bank's website, 
I don't care. 

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That my bank is on Google Cloud 
platform, right? 

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I just care that it's a good 
application that I get to use 

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and that's it. 
And so wormhole. 

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How is that missing piece of 
technology that allows different

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infrastructure providers to 
connect to each other? 

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So the end user can get an 
application rather than an 

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infrastructure to interact with.
So it's this layer on top of 

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blockchains that really for the 
end user makes it so they can 

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interact with just clear out the
patient's. 

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Now on top of that and 
application was built called 

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portal, the portal asset. 
Bridge is what most people And 

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consumers actually end up using.
And it's a simple way to just 

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move, you know, token from one 
chain to another. 

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Now while it's super useful 
right now because one of the 

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biggest use cases for blockchain
technology is tokens, we've seen

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we're seeing some interesting 
use case, pop up that are non 

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token-based. 
Use cases. 

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For example, like cross chain 
governance or nft support or 

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like you know, gaming or other 
things that are not just tokens 

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and those Going to use that 
generic message, passing layer 

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that Wormhole has without 
necessarily using token passing,

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as we see it in Portal. 
All right, thanks. 

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think there's a really it's a 

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lot of applications that can 
still be unlocked and before you

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even had something like Wormhole
Ride, Like the general way of 

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bridging to other that versus is
either impossible or through 

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some centralized party. 
So I think it's a very important

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like kind of step towards really
interconnecting this District 

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These ecosystems. 
Now you mentioned already like a

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bunch of the chains that 
Wormhole today, support, can you

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talk a little bit about, you 
know, how, how do you add 

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support for for a network in 
Wormhole? 

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What are the challenges with 
adding a new network to this 

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kind of layer to this protocol? 
Yeah. 

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So first and foremost Wormhole 
is a decentralized protocol. 

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What that means is the core 
contributors can't just add a 

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network. 
This is one of the biggest 

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misconceptions that people 
usually run into the core. 

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Contributors might write some 
code that says, hey, we can add 

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in hair sample. 
Code, here's a, here's a working

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connection to this new network. 
But at the end of the day, it 

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gets proposed to our guardians 
or Guardians are the Wormhole 

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validators? 
So every Validator would which 

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observes messages on all of the 
chains that we connect to has 

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to, basically run a node for 
every chain that Wormhole wants 

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to connect to. 
And so if a new network wants 

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wants to be added to the 
Wormhole ecosystem, they have to

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propose to the Guardians. 
Hey, please run a node for our, 

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you know, our chain, our Network
our protocol and the Wormhole 

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Guardians have To do a 
governance. 

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Folk the 19 Guardians. 
Have to decide. 

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Yes, we want to run this 
network. 

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No, we don't want to run this 
network. 

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And after that vote passes is 
that Network live. 

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Yeah, it makes sense that I 
guess so. 

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Can you talk a little bit about?
How does this, I guess this 

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Guardian said today who they 
are, and I guess how the 

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governance works now and maybe 
also a little bit. 

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How do you plan to expand that 
you mentioned? 

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There's 19, obviously, it's a 
very high burden, I guess on 

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this card in to support so many 
networks. 

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How do you may be imagined or 
how does work? 

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Well, imagine to to grow that 
and yeah, what do you see as the

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steps for that? 
Yeah, so the guardian network 

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was chosen as the top 19 
validators in the space. 

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So it's not that, you know, 
these are 19, random validators.

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These are validators that are in
the blockchain, space unique and

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separate. 
So there's a very high antique 

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illusion probability. 
What that means is like, there's

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very, it's very unlikely that 
these 19 unique companies would 

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collude with each other because 
they are they, Have a reputation

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at stake. 
So beyond beyond just, you know,

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value of like other, for 
example, our competitors might 

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say use of proof of stake 
system, which allows you to 

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become a guard or become about 
it, or on their Network on the 

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Wormhole, Guardian Network, you 
have your reputation at stake as

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well because there's there's 
that bigger context of this, 

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these Guardians, being the 
bigger validators in the space 

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and again as Actually, there's a
big burden there. 

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Now, there we are thinking about
ways to propose the Guardians, 

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to expand the guardian set. 
The Wormhole contributors are 

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working on improvements to just 
warm chain and a variety of 

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other improvements that we can 
just talk. 

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We can talk about just yet just 
because two designs aren't 

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finalized. 
But the idea is, if the 

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Guardians want to expand and 
want to grow, there are 

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potential ways to That we're 
currently discussing with them 

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to grow that grow that pie that 
being said again, like you said 

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it's a huge burden to be a 
guardian on a wormhole Network. 

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So one of the scaling solutions 
that we're looking into right 

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now, is instead of having 
Guardians run full nodes, use 

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something like zero-knowledge 
proofs for validation and we're 

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trying that out, you know, and 
testing and design facing right 

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now. 
So we don't have to worry about 

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Guardians running full nodes, 
but they can actually run zero. 

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00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,000
Knowledge proof systems to test 
state from different chains and 

229
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,200
grow that grow that validator 
set. 

230
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,800
Awesome. 
Yeah, that is definitely 

231
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,600
something. 
We should get into a little bit 

232
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,400
later again, because that seems 
quite interesting, how how you 

233
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,400
might use zero knowledge proof 
to do that but I guess before we

234
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,700
get there, maybe you can talk a 
little bit about just kind of 

235
00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:34,800
the bridging experience. 
Now, we're talking about portal,

236
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,200
if If you have a new network, 
can you walk us a little bit 

237
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,000
through? 
How would I as a user interact 

238
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,100
with portal? 
And yeah, could you just like 

239
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:49,500
walk us through this flow, 
maybe? 

240
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,000
Yeah. 
So to interact with portal. 

241
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,700
First of all, you can just go to
portal bridge.com. 

242
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,800
I believe that's the website. 
Let me double-check. 

243
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,300
Yeah. 
Portal bridge.com. 

244
00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,200
But really, it's so the way 
Wormhole works. 

245
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,300
Is you start? 
A source chain, you emit a 

246
00:14:07,308 --> 00:14:10,700
message that it missed that 
message, gets observed by the 

247
00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:12,800
Guardians to make sure that it's
valid. 

248
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,800
And then a relayer comes along, 
picks it up and then submits it 

249
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,000
onto the target chained, the 
most confusing. 

250
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:25,000
And, you know, non-intuitive 
part about this is the relayer 

251
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,600
and the rear and we'll talk 
about why in just a second, but 

252
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,600
everything else is fairly 
simple. 

253
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,400
You go to portal. 
Bridge.com, you start your 

254
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,200
transfer? 
You say, I want a bridge. 

255
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:40,200
Judge you know, five whatever 
tokens over to a different 

256
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,300
network. 
Now it's really important to 

257
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,200
note the difference between 
Bridging the token and swapping 

258
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,900
a token. 
A lot of people come to portal 

259
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,000
and they are like, why can't I 
swap a token? 

260
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,400
Why is it only letting me Bridge
a token. 

261
00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:58,900
And the reason for that is when 
you bridge a token, you're 

262
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,700
sending the same token from 
point A to point B. 

263
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,000
When you swap a token you are 
exchanging one. 

264
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,300
For for one token, to another 
token, not another chain and 

265
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:11,000
swapping a token requires 
things. 

266
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,300
Like price oracle's requires, 
things like exchange rates. 

267
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:17,400
Requires someone to take on 
counterparty risk. 

268
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,700
There are other applications 
that have been built on top of 

269
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:24,200
portal that allows you to swap 
tokens. 

270
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,100
For example, swim is a great 
example where you can do Sable 

271
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:30,200
swaps. 
And you know, we have a couple 

272
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,200
of other partners that are 
building some swaps that you can

273
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,300
interact with But portal 
basically is very basic 

274
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:38,600
primitive that lets you just 
Bridge. 

275
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,100
The same token from point A to 
point B. 

276
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,300
The second thing to note about 
portal bridging just like any 

277
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:50,100
kind of bridging is that the 
wave bridge is generally work is

278
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:54,800
that they lock up your token on 
one side and they meant an IOU 

279
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,700
on the second on the other side.
So they brought mint a rap 

280
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:02,100
version of the token on the 
foreign chain, the rap version 

281
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:06,400
can always be redeemed. 1414 the
locked Version on the source 

282
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,400
chain so it can be treated 
basically the same as if it was 

283
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,400
just you know, the source chain 
token. 

284
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,800
But that means that if you want 
to use it on the floor and 

285
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,100
change, sometimes you might run 
into problems because you have 

286
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:23,900
to swap it for the native 
version, an example is U STC. 

287
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,800
So, for example, if I want to 
bridge, you SC see from say is 

288
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,000
here, IAM to Solana. 
Usdcad has its own mint on a 

289
00:16:32,008 --> 00:16:35,900
theorem in Solana. 
And so if you're using portal, 

290
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,800
you might have to after you 
bridge or USD see over to Solana

291
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,700
swap, the portal, u.s. 
DC into the native meant for you

292
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:49,000
SEC on celada so those are too 
kind of caveats, the gotchas 

293
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,000
that people often run into with 
portal. 

294
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:54,500
Now let's talk about the relayer
bit that I just discussed a 

295
00:16:54,508 --> 00:16:59,300
little while ago, the relayer is
a kind of dumb piece of 

296
00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:02,300
software. 
It's a web service that listens 

297
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,200
for messages, that guardians of 
And submits them onto Target. 

298
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,599
Chains it's necessary because 
someone has to pay the gas for 

299
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,400
transactions on the target 
chain, right? 

300
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,700
There's no such thing as a free 
lunch, just because you create a

301
00:17:16,708 --> 00:17:19,800
transaction on a source, shame 
doesn't mean that you have paid 

302
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,599
the gas on the floor and chain. 
So the relayer is in charge of 

303
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:25,099
paying the gas on the for and 
chain. 

304
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,900
Now, you might be asking, why 
would a regular do this? 

305
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,500
The reason re layers do? 
This is when you're creating a 

306
00:17:30,508 --> 00:17:34,200
transaction on the source chain 
one of the Things that you're 

307
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,600
doing is that you can often 
attached a fee for a relayer. 

308
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,400
You can say, here's 50 cents. 
Please relay my transaction to 

309
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,700
Solana and a relay or might say,
okay, cool. 

310
00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:47,500
The transaction fee is only 25 
cents. 

311
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,200
So I'll pay I'll pay the 
transaction if you pay the gas 

312
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,700
field, Solana and pocket, the 
difference between the relayer 

313
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:56,600
fee and the gas fee and in this 
way, if they do enough 

314
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,900
transactions, they can actually 
our money and so but they can't 

315
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,400
modify the message in any way. 
The Wormhole architecture is 

316
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,300
such that it's just a dumb 
message but basically re layers 

317
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,900
can just submit messages to 
Target chains. 

318
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,800
Hopefully that covers the portal
flow. 

319
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,300
Yeah. 
That that's that's super 

320
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,600
interesting. 
And so the the benefit for the 

321
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,600
user I guess it's also that this
tip that you give the relayer 

322
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,200
you're paying that in the native
currency on this Source chain, 

323
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,300
or can you also like attached 
tips and different ways or how 

324
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:34,400
does it hurt? 
Ooh yeah. 

325
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,600
So right now you can pay in I 
think stable coins and Native 

326
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,500
currencies but there's nothing 
stopping you from attaching a 

327
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:46,800
fee and whatever token you 
choose. 

328
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:49,100
The real are just has to accept 
it. 

329
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:53,300
Andre layers are selective about
accepting different tokens 

330
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,200
because they want to make sure 
that tokens are accepting 

331
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,000
actually have liquid markets, 
right? 

332
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,400
If you attach for example, you 
know, your Shiba, Inu, 

333
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,100
derivative time, you know, 
Twelve, that doesn't have a 

334
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,700
liquid Market anywhere. 
The relay or might not be 

335
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,600
willing to accept that as a fee 
because they can exchange it for

336
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,900
something that they can use to 
pay gas, makes sense. 

337
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:20,100
And maybe like in practice, do 
you have insights into? 

338
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:22,700
Like, how many of these re 
layers are running? 

339
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,700
Or is this, like something that,
you know, is dominated by 

340
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:32,200
certain people that are like 
that run this and or is it like 

341
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,700
more distributed? 
Would you like to see? 

342
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,200
See more people running re 
layers. 

343
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,800
Yeah, we definitely want to see 
more people running real Ayers. 

344
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:40,300
I think right now we have 
something like ten re layers 

345
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:45,400
running but basically one of the
things that we often see, is 

346
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,200
that there aren't real Ayers. 
So, readers are huge topic of 

347
00:19:50,208 --> 00:19:52,000
conversation. 
Like we could spend hours 

348
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,900
talking about just re layers 
because we have new things 

349
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,500
rolling out called generic re 
layers, plug-in re layers. 

350
00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:01,400
There's real errors, are a huge 
amount of optimization that's 

351
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,000
being done in the Wormhole 
Network. 

352
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:08,600
As they stand right now. 
One of the things is that we 

353
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,200
generally see 
application-specific re layers, 

354
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:14,900
and what that means is just like
portal is an application. 

355
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:19,900
If you have an application using
Wormhole, you might actually run

356
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:23,500
your own. 
Relayer just for the messages 

357
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:27,200
for your application. 
And so generally, we see a 

358
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,300
variety of different app of re 
layers where you have, you might

359
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,700
have 10 portal re layers running
on various different chains. 

360
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,600
And so for every chain that 
we're more connects to there 

361
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,400
might be a different relayer 
that submitting messages for 

362
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,800
each aim. 
That way they only have to worry

363
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,100
about the gas for the specific 
chain that they're submitting 

364
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:45,900
transactions on. 
But then you also see 

365
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:49,000
application-specific re layers. 
And so, in that case you might 

366
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,200
have, you might have as many re 
layers if they are, you know, 

367
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,800
applications. 
So the answer is it is 

368
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,100
distributed. 
It is kind of a scatter plot of 

369
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,600
different modules and we're 
trying to make that money, you 

370
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,900
know, much easier by writing 
Some sample code and writing 

371
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:08,600
some architecture that makes 
plug-in re layers really, really

372
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,400
easy and easy to deploy. 
All right. 

373
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,100
I'll still be a that's that's 
very cool. 

374
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:19,200
I think I guess, you know the we
talked a little bit about this 

375
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,800
raging and then the assets that 
are created. 

376
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,400
Essentially when you move 
through the chain as far as I 

377
00:21:24,408 --> 00:21:27,100
understand, like basically what 
you're saying is also that 

378
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:33,600
Wormhole basically won't cover 
this use case of like switching 

379
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,800
then to the native totin, 
whatever that might mean. 

380
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,500
But that is something that 
should be built on top of it is 

381
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:43,200
being billed on top potentially 
even by the Patient that is is 

382
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:50,500
using Wormhole as like kind of a
infrastructure now, I guess. 

383
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:54,500
Maybe the question is is there 
also like are some of these 

384
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:58,600
Wormhole bridged assets being 
used directly when there is 

385
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,300
maybe no native total on that 
chain? 

386
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,100
And how does liquidity work? 
In that case? 

387
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:11,000
How how do you guarantee that? 
Yeah, that's an excellent 

388
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,300
question. 
So the word we use for so in the

389
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:15,900
u.s. 
DC example, u.s. 

390
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:20,200
DC has a has a man talking about
change but if you don't have a 

391
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,300
mint on any chance, for example 
you create your token, we call 

392
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:27,300
these cross chain tokens or 
cross chain opposite-sex assets.

393
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,100
If you want your token to be an 
excess set, all you have to do 

394
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:35,000
is create it on one chain and 
then use a bridge to have a 

395
00:22:35,008 --> 00:22:38,200
canonical representation of it 
on all other chains. 

396
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,700
So for example, if tomorrow I 
were to launch Dev coin Um and 

397
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:46,800
then just bridging over using 
portal on to Clayton and you 

398
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,800
know it cerium and all these 
other different chains. 

399
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,600
I would just have the portal 
wrapped version but because I 

400
00:22:53,608 --> 00:22:58,500
would claim it as the canonical 
version of that token, I would 

401
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:03,400
let developers know that. 
Hey please use the token here as

402
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,700
the official token and so that 
way you helped consolidate 

403
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:09,300
liquidity pools. 
Now there's nothing stopping 

404
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,600
someone from using a different 
bridge to bridge. 

405
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,100
That token over. 
But because I've taken the 

406
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:18,000
proactive step as a developer to
say that the canonical version 

407
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,200
of my token, is the portal rock 
version of my token. 

408
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,700
Generally developers will 
consolidate around that token 

409
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,800
rather than do using different 
Bridges. 

410
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,300
So a lot of this has to do with 
just, you know, user awareness 

411
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,500
and user experience and letting 
people developers and users know

412
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,300
that. 
Hey, you can use my token on 

413
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:42,700
other chains, you can use this 
token of the other But please 

414
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:47,100
use the canonical meant rather 
than a non-canonical meant as 

415
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:48,800
otherwise he wouldn't even 
liquidity pool. 

416
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:55,000
I see, yeah, exactly. 
I think, a lot of the issues of 

417
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,300
the user experience actually 
that are supposed to be solved. 

418
00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:01,500
Some what by the bridges kind of
reappear in this. 

419
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,600
Like now we have these different
representations, obviously also 

420
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,300
creates like a little bit 
opportunity, maybe for like 

421
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,400
these swap protocols, I know, 
like, for example, Sample, Savor

422
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,200
of Solana had like a big kind of
Market just to like exchange 

423
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800
between these different 
representations in a stable swap

424
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,600
manner. 
But obviously, I don't know if 

425
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,400
that's the ideal path. 
So what you generally say that 

426
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,800
you would like is the goal for 
Rome whole to like get these 

427
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,900
acts assets to be the canonical 
representation. 

428
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,300
I so basically the answer is 
yes. 

429
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:39,300
But maybe, maybe on top of that.
Yeah, it's that kind of also 

430
00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:43,500
part of Let's say the business 
model for Wormhole to have that 

431
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:45,400
or I guess we kind of talked a 
little bit about. 

432
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,700
Let me let me yeah, let me maybe
introduce a concept here that it

433
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:53,700
will help guide. 
This conversation, one of the 

434
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,800
things that a wormhole core 
contributors just launched and 

435
00:24:56,808 --> 00:25:00,900
was approved to maintain that is
contract control transfers. 

436
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:02,900
You might hear this called 
payload three. 

437
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:07,500
It's a portal specific payload, 
and I'll talk about why I'm 

438
00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:10,600
talking about this technical. 
It's a technical thing, but it 

439
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,700
allows Score. 
It's A Primitive that allows for

440
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:14,600
building something really, 
really cool, swap 

441
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,200
infrastructure. 
And so contract control 

442
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:23,300
transfers, allow you to send a 
tokens alongside a payload from 

443
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:26,600
one chain to another. 
And this is really, really cool 

444
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,300
because in one Atomic 
transaction, you can say, I want

445
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:35,500
to say, send if you're IAM along
with the payload, the payload 

446
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:39,500
says, please Swap. 
This etherium for Solana, and 

447
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:43,700
then Send this a lot to this 
address. 

448
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:48,100
And so what this will do is I 
can pay in a theory of on one 

449
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:52,700
side, have that Atomic 
transaction, that transaction 

450
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:58,300
goes to Solana, swaps it, for 
soul and deposits. 

451
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:02,400
The sold into the account that I
want and then please the relay 

452
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,000
or whatever the fee is. 
And what that allows me to do is

453
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,400
again do that swap build that 
swap on top of portal, Without 

454
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,100
needing to do multiple 
transactions, and in one Atomic 

455
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:16,900
transaction. 
You can bridge and swap. 

456
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,400
So that's something that we're 
really excited about and we 

457
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,100
think that like major swaps and 
not just major swaps, a major 

458
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:27,300
use cases. 
For example, say I have a game 

459
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:32,200
on Solana and to play the game 
you have to pay the gas be in 

460
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,500
Seoul. 
Well, one of the things I you 

461
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:39,900
can enable is actually I want 
to, you know, spend my ease I 

462
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:42,700
can create a rapper contract 
around the game or, you know, 

463
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,700
however I want to implement it 
but I pay in East the East gets 

464
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,700
transferred convert it to Seoul 
and then pays for the gas cost 

465
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,200
for the play button on the on 
the game. 

466
00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:59,100
And so this way, I can pay for 
the gas cost for the application

467
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:04,300
on Solana even though I'm 
sending money from a foreign 

468
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,600
chain like aetherium. 
I see. 

469
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,600
Yeah, thatthat sounds super 
promising and kind of brings 

470
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,300
back that composability that is 
probably needed to really create

471
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,000
a user experience that is like 
Mass, adoption ready. 

472
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,700
So that that's really cool. 
I think, you know, we mentioned 

473
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:25,500
a bit that Howry layers 
basically earn money in terms of

474
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:30,500
like just, yeah, the fees that 
are attached to these payloads. 

475
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,900
Is there? 
What if there is there something

476
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:37,100
like how it works for guardians,
or How why do guardians do it? 

477
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:41,700
Or if you can talk about it, 
like are the plans for this and 

478
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,400
how might it work? 
Or even if there's not the clear

479
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,400
yet, could you talk about what 
some of the options maybe are 

480
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,400
that that could exist in such a 
in this network. 

481
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,800
Yeah. 
So like the business model for 

482
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,800
Wormhole is really not really a 
business model where all is a 

483
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,100
public infrastructure. 
So the way jump looks at 

484
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:04,000
Wormhole is that its public 
infrastructure. 

485
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,000
The reason job has korkin Tutors
that work on Wormhole is that 

486
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,300
there's a belief that their 
their needs to exist. 

487
00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:16,200
Applications on top of Wormhole 
that are super useful that are 

488
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,100
investable that our businesses, 
but to build those businesses 

489
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:22,300
requires this public 
infrastructure. 

490
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:26,000
So one of the reasons to 
Guardians and Trump and other 

491
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,100
interested, stakeholders are 
building on top of Wormhole or 

492
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,000
contributing to Wormhole. 
Is that if this public 

493
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:37,700
infrastructure exists then? 
There's a pathway to building 

494
00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:42,400
businesses that can that can 
have bigger business models on 

495
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,600
top of Wormhole. 
Does that make sense? 

496
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:48,400
Yeah, thanks Dad, that that's 
that's super helpful. 

497
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,600
Just like you need like an 
electric grid to exist before 

498
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000
you can build like computers 
and, you know, all of these 

499
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,100
other things. 
So there's a belief that the 

500
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:02,800
future applications that are 
monetizable that are going to be

501
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,200
super interesting to use. 
And so on, require this kind of 

502
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,000
public infrastructure to exist. 
Okay, so but then they would 

503
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,700
still at some point, have to pay
for this infrastructure 

504
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:19,100
potentially these applications. 
Once it's more, let's say a 

505
00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:24,100
gradient in the the system or is
that something that could 

506
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,100
happen? 
Or how did that play out? 

507
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,600
Yeah. 
So there's definitely talks 

508
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,000
about, you know, how can warp 
hole be self-sustainable. 

509
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:38,400
And so on the again, all of this
is in the design phase. 

510
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,100
So I don't want to mention any 
specific thing because in case 

511
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,400
the Guardians rejected like, 
where were molten core? 

512
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,600
Contributors might say, hey, 
this is like a thing you could 

513
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,800
do and the Guardians might say, 
no, that's not actually what we 

514
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,600
want to do or the Guardians 
might say, hey we want to 

515
00:29:53,608 --> 00:29:57,600
actually implement this and, you
know, and I just don't know 

516
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,200
about it or things like that. 
So, there are a lot of plans 

517
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,500
that are being shaped about how 
to build wormholes 

518
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,600
self-sustainability, but that's 
currently a lower priority than 

519
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:09,900
making sure that That 
infrastructure exists in the 

520
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,000
first place. 
All right. 

521
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,300
Makes sense. 
Thanks for expanding on that. 

522
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:18,300
I think that that surely is 
interesting for a lot of users 

523
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:21,400
and the Guardians and everyone 
including me even. 

524
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,100
So that's, that's cool. 
And I guess maybe to get back a 

525
00:30:26,108 --> 00:30:29,800
little bit to kind of the 
security assumptions or like 

526
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,300
just in general Bridges. 
So, I think, you know, maybe for

527
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,700
context doors for our listeners.
There's definitely You know, a 

528
00:30:38,708 --> 00:30:41,800
lot of concerns around this 
resistance is like very complex 

529
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,000
technology. 
A lot of the hacks that actually

530
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,300
have happened in the past year 
have been kind of related to 

531
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:49,700
Bridges. 
I think if you looked at the 

532
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:53,800
wrecked leaderboard there is a 
lot of like Bridges, a lot of 

533
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,400
value that has been kind of lost
in the bridges. 

534
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,000
Of course, unfortunately 
Wormhole was also part of this. 

535
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,100
Now maybe you can talk a little 
bit. 

536
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,700
About, you know why I guess? 
First of all, why is it that 

537
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:17,400
Bridges seem to have, like, more
of these, kind of issues if 

538
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,300
that's true. 
And then, I guess also like what

539
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000
Wormhole learned from this 
specific incident and kind of, 

540
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,100
like, what specifically changed 
in the approach to building 

541
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:34,000
Wormhole or actually like really
the code that that may be kind 

542
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,900
of makes these kind of 
incidents, less likely. 

543
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:40,900
Yeah, so let's first of all, 
just talk about the Wormhole 

544
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:42,500
hack and specifically what 
happened. 

545
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,900
Just so everyone has the same 
context and that way everyone's 

546
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,600
on the same page. 
So the worm will hack happened 

547
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,900
actually the third day when I 
was core contributor for 

548
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:54,200
Wormhole. 
So I just joined on and, you 

549
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,700
know, Third Day, the sack 
happened. 

550
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,900
But one of the things that 
happened was a bug in our Solana

551
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:06,500
code and so You can read the 
whole right up on our medium. 

552
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:08,900
It goes into detail about 
exactly how it happened. 

553
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,700
But basically one of the 
signature verification programs 

554
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:18,400
that the Wormhole core code 
called in was spoofed and 

555
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,700
instead of actually tracking 
signatures, it just return 

556
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:25,400
valid, for whatever signatures. 
So how that happened and all of 

557
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,500
the other read means, you can go
and read that. 

558
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,300
Now, one of the reasons that 
Bridges specifically are such a 

559
00:32:32,308 --> 00:32:36,500
big honey pot for hackers Is 
this concept of their large? 

560
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:41,800
Vaults of Locked Up 
cryptocurrency, they take in 

561
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:48,000
large amounts of currency on the
cryptocurrencies On Any Given 

562
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,500
chain and they lock it up. 
And so, they have this massive 

563
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:58,400
reserves and on the other side, 
they they create iou's that can 

564
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,300
be used and redeemed wherever 
wherever possible. 

565
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,500
So one of the reasons that At 
people hackers simply like this 

566
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,600
is if they break a bridge, they 
get everything that's in the 

567
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,900
large, Vault of the locked up 
currencies. 

568
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,300
This is kind of, you know, this 
is exciting as a hacker. 

569
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,700
It's a pretty low bear, like a 
low attack Vector for a large 

570
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:23,400
car, you know, reward. 
Now, what's being done to kind 

571
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,800
of mitigate this risk is of, 
after the heck happened, a 

572
00:33:27,808 --> 00:33:28,900
couple of things to the 
Wormhole. 

573
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:32,500
Core contributors started 
looking into was, how can we 

574
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:35,500
mitigate attacks? 
Such that if something happens 

575
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:38,000
on one chain. 
So there's always going to be 

576
00:33:38,008 --> 00:33:40,100
smart contract risk. 
If you're going to create open 

577
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,800
source code software, there's 
always going to be smart 

578
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,200
contract risk because that all 
of the contracts are open 

579
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,000
source. 
Anyone can look at that and they

580
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,400
can, you know, run the tax on 
them all day long until they 

581
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,100
find a zero day and then use it.
So, how can we actually mitigate

582
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,700
these? 
This risk one of the things is 

583
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,600
something that we call a 
counting and that's a basically,

584
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:06,200
to deploy a middle A layer 
between all the chains that 

585
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,400
actually keeps track of how much
is money is moving in and out of

586
00:34:09,408 --> 00:34:13,300
any given chain and what that 
allows us to do, or allows a 

587
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:18,199
wormhole to do, is actually 
limit attacks when an attack 

588
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:22,000
happens on one chain, when 
portal gets if court against 

589
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,600
attack on one chain that attack 
limit, is the size of the chain 

590
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,300
itself. 
So if like etherium goes down, 

591
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:33,500
then we have a bigger problem 
because if you're even has a 

592
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:36,699
large Were blocked assets, but 
if one of the smaller chains 

593
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,000
goes down, it's less of a, you 
know, it doesn't affect the 

594
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,900
entire locked worth lock net 
worth. 

595
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,500
Secondly, a huge, huge huge 
help. 

596
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:50,900
That's, you know, we've really 
been proud of is the Wormhole 

597
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:53,699
bug Bounty program. 
We launched with. 

598
00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:56,600
I think one of the largest bug 
Bounties in the space 10 million

599
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,700
dollars. 
We've had a couple of really 

600
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,300
good submissions that have 
helped us find bugs right before

601
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:05,500
they happen. 
So that's been really, really, 

602
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:08,800
really exciting that people have
responded to that. 

603
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,500
And we've been able to secure 
and, you know, how build 

604
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:16,500
Security in the bridge and then 
a couple of other things that 

605
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,400
we're working on are things like
worm chain. 

606
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:24,100
So warm chain, you might have 
heard of mentioned, a couple of 

607
00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:27,500
times you can go read about it 
in our design doc's, on the 

608
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:32,400
GitHub, a basically, warm chain,
is this ask is this middle layer

609
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,700
between all the chains. 
That we can kind of use to do 

610
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,400
accounting and other things. 
Another thing that were working 

611
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,900
on is limits, we call it 
Governor. 

612
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:46,300
So, for example, this actually 
went live, I think two weeks 

613
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:51,700
ago, which if you're transacting
large amounts between portal 

614
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:54,500
from one chain to another, all 
the Guardians actually have to 

615
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:58,600
approve certain limits on each 
change. 

616
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,700
So for example, you might not be
able to and this is just a 

617
00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:03,500
random number. 
I don't know the exact Governor 

618
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:07,200
limit You can look them up on 
the GitHub, but like, if you're 

619
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,900
moving from aetherium to Solana,
you might not be able to move 

620
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:13,100
more than like a hundred million
dollars in a day and you might 

621
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,700
have to wait until the next day.
So these kinds of Governor 

622
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:20,900
limits also help mitigate 
mitigate risk, and we're working

623
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:25,200
on a number of other features. 
There's a research team that's 

624
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:31,900
dedicated to coming up with kind
of security, tools and security,

625
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:35,600
best practices. 
And we're not doing this alone, 

626
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,400
Bridge. 
Just as you mentioned, bridges 

627
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,200
are one of the most vulnerable 
pieces of technology in the 

628
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,400
ecosystem because they're honey 
pots abuse. 

629
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,400
You know, they're large bolts 
that lock up large amounts of 

630
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,700
cryptocurrencies. 
And so, we're actually working 

631
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:56,100
with, you know, other Bridges 
and trying to work with trying 

632
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,100
to understand. 
Are there? 

633
00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:02,600
Are there ways that we can do 
better in terms of security 

634
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,300
across the board? 
Yeah, thanks that's super 

635
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:09,800
insightful. 
I think also will link to all 

636
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,300
these or like traveling to most 
of these documents or things 

637
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:16,000
that we mentioned, especially I 
guess the bug Bounty program the

638
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,100
right up and maybe things about 
weren't chained in the show 

639
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:21,700
notes. 
So if you're listening to this, 

640
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,800
hopefully links will be there. 
If not hit us up and we'll send 

641
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,300
them to you hopefully or Google 
it so, right. 

642
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:34,800
I think the security question 
obviously is Like a pretty big 

643
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,800
one. 
You mentioned already earlier. 

644
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,500
A little bit around zero, 
knowledge proof. 

645
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:44,500
So I guess is this? 
Another kind of value? 

646
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:48,300
That might make it more secure. 
Is it more just like around 

647
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,600
scalability, or what are the 
benefits of using that? 

648
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:58,000
Again, maybe 44 Wormhole and 
then maybe you can also talk a 

649
00:37:58,008 --> 00:38:00,400
little bit about how exactly or 
like, not exactly. 

650
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,600
But how do you plan to 
incorporate this technology into

651
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,800
wormhole? 
And what might it? 

652
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,000
Bring in terms of benefit? 
Yeah, at a high level. 

653
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,200
The way we purchase plan on 
using zero. 

654
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,800
Knowledge proof is basically to 
attest the state of an entire 

655
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,700
chain on just as a rollup does 
basically a test the state of an

656
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:29,400
entire chain using block headers
on to another chain. 

657
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,300
So basically you say it's a lot 
of has the past hundred blocks, 

658
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:35,400
we're going to roll them up with
all the block headers. 

659
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,300
We're going to Submit a zero, 
knowledge proof. 

660
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:42,300
And then any time A change is 
made to the, you know, made to 

661
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:46,300
the next block, the news, your 
knowledge proof must be 

662
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:50,800
computed. 
Such that it is still listens to

663
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,300
the old as your office or a seal
complies, with the old to your 

664
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:56,800
knowledge proof and then you can
you can validate that and you 

665
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,900
can keep submitting those proofs
and then you can run a set of 

666
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,800
you know the Guardians basically
just go around validating 20 

667
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,000
knowledge groups and making sure
that you know, the that no 

668
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,600
invalid. 
Sir submitted. 

669
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,300
But again a lot of this is still
in the design phase because 

670
00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:15,600
there's a certain number of 
requirements to this. 

671
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,500
Depending on different chains 
are different ecosystems. 

672
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:23,600
This gets really complex, people
are used to zero knowledge Bruce

673
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,500
in the evm ecosystem but 
validating proofs on. 

674
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:30,600
For example, Solana, it's a lot 
harder than evm because of like 

675
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:37,300
compute limits and so on and no 
native support for like, you 

676
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:40,000
know, No, I brought 16 verify or
any of these things. 

677
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:43,700
So, when we talk with your 
knowledge, proofs, one of the 

678
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:48,200
challenges is that we don't have
uniformity across different 

679
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,200
ecosystems. 
And so, you know, one of Trumps 

680
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,300
research teams, but they're 
working on is really just 

681
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,400
finding that uniform validation 
ground between different 

682
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,400
ecosystems that we can, we can 
use this across all the chains 

683
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,600
that Wormhole connects to Right.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. 

684
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,900
I've I think also even etherium 
ride a lot of these because 

685
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:19,200
that's a very fast-moving like 
space where a lot of the new 

686
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,300
cryptographic curves and stuff 
has been coming out only like 

687
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,300
recently and I guess many of the
trades didn't have in mind that 

688
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:30,700
they might want to use this. 
And it might have to be added in

689
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,600
hindsight or later or even can't
maybe be added. 

690
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,600
So I have I know I've seen like 
a bunch of No even like any 

691
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200
theorem, right? 
I think adding BLS signatures 

692
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,000
was like a whole process that 
took forever. 

693
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,900
So definitely very exciting 
space and I think should be able

694
00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:51,800
to add a lot to the to the user 
experience in the security of 

695
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:56,800
using Bridges. 
So thanks for expanding and cool

696
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,500
to hear that. 
John Backus is also contributing

697
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,300
a bunch in this space. 
So maybe like switching again a 

698
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:10,500
bit to a Topic like more 
application Level stuff. 

699
00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:13,700
I think, you know, one of the 
very interesting things, I mean 

700
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:16,100
Wormhole, it's been super 
successful. 

701
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:20,000
I think, for a while, maybe the 
biggest bridge or at least in 

702
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,500
the very top, it's still in the 
top three probably. 

703
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,500
And, but if I look at the TV, I 
write it was like, I think 

704
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:30,600
almost five billion for, for a 
moment and then obviously, the 

705
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,600
market crashed. 
But there was also another event

706
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,500
that that like, brought this 
down a lot, which is the A 

707
00:41:36,508 --> 00:41:40,000
collab. 
So obviously Tara was a big kind

708
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,300
of driver of usage of Wormhole 
because people wanted to bring 

709
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,200
assets to Anchor or kind of 
integrate that. 

710
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,800
So, like one of the things that 
anchor was supporting just for 

711
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,700
context for listeners. 
Who was also stake teeth from Li

712
00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:59,500
do? 
And there was the, the anchor if

713
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:04,600
so, that went through Wormhole, 
also the Solana, if the the same

714
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,400
thing. 
So, Obviously that that 

715
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,600
collapsed maybe I guess there is
a pretty close relationship 

716
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,300
based on that. 
Was there with Tara from from 

717
00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:18,500
Wormhole. 
Maybe you can talk a little bit 

718
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:26,600
about you know, how that 
impacted the Wormhole like you 

719
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:33,400
can system and then what what 
was the situation like in that? 

720
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:39,800
Moment on a personal note, Trump
was actually hosting a Tara 

721
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,300
Hacker House during the terror 
clap. 

722
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,500
So, when that was happening, you
know, the the mood is very 

723
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,900
somber. 
I was there, everyone was there 

724
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:50,900
will help you know what, just 
watching the price go up and 

725
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:56,300
down, so that was quite a place 
to be in, but what that 

726
00:42:56,300 --> 00:43:01,700
happened? 
It was actually very I don't 

727
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:05,000
want to say calm, it wasn't 
calm, but from the Wormhole 

728
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:13,000
side, there wasn't a big upset 
because even though we were 

729
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,100
losing one of our partners and 
this was definitely a sad day, 

730
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:23,100
nothing really changed. 
Technically right there was 

731
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,800
there was an exploit on the 
Wormhole side, there was no 

732
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:30,700
massive change. 
The worst thing that Wormhole to

733
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:35,400
korkin Yours had to deal with 
was just a customer support of 

734
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,900
all of the, all of the people 
who were trying to use portal 

735
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,000
for the first time or the second
time and trying to bridge their 

736
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,900
tokens back from from Terra to 
anywhere else. 

737
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,600
And so this actually really goes
to show the decentralization 

738
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,100
nature of Wormhole where 
Wormhole wasn't so closely tied 

739
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:57,300
to any one chain even one. 
As big as Tara even one that was

740
00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:01,100
such a big contributor to the 
TBL for Wormhole that like 

741
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,400
Wormhole basically took that hit
and I was like yeah we just 

742
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,600
moved tokens back and forth or 
we just send messages back and 

743
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,600
forth and that's okay. 
And, you know, the Guardians 

744
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,300
have to figure out the big thing
that happened. 

745
00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:19,400
Technically was on the guardian 
side. 

746
00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:21,200
They won't. 
We're more computers, didn't 

747
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:26,000
really have to do much, the 
Guardians had to Halt Tara 

748
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,200
because Tara, like when Tara 
halted they had to Halt era and 

749
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,100
during the time to Was halted. 
There was a number of customer 

750
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:36,200
support requests. 
Why can't I get my tokens out? 

751
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,300
Well, the chain isn't live, so 
that's why. 

752
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,100
And then when the chain was 
restarted, it was a matter of 

753
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:46,200
getting, you know, are the 
Guardians going to restart the 

754
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,100
chain some Hardy's wanted to 
some Guardians didn't. 

755
00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:52,600
And so you know, that was a 
whole conversation. 

756
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,900
But again from the Wormhole core
contributor side because it's 

757
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:58,100
decentralized, you know, the 
core contributors like whatever 

758
00:44:58,100 --> 00:44:59,600
the Guardians want to do. 
That's great. 

759
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,300
Like there's there's no Extra 
code to be written. 

760
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,300
Tara didn't change its code 
base, right? 

761
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,500
It was just a matter of 
Guardians deciding. 

762
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,300
Yeah, we want to support the new
Terror Network where we don't, 

763
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:14,500
or we want to halted, or we 
don't, and all of these things. 

764
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:18,000
Yeah, right. 
I think it over all in this 

765
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,200
incident. 
Like, most of the technical 

766
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,900
infrastructure actually has 
performed very well. 

767
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:26,800
I think even like on the 
parasite itself, right? 

768
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,600
Like tender remained and the 
smart contract code that kind of

769
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:33,900
made. 
That made up the system, worked 

770
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:38,200
very well and under this High 
load and I don't think anything 

771
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,700
happened on that. 
And, like, most of the problems 

772
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:42,200
were more around like, on the 
Terrace. 

773
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,400
I'd around, you know, they're 
being so much Luna minted that 

774
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,100
some attack would have become 
likely and then all these these 

775
00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:50,800
things that had to be done 
because of that. 

776
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:56,900
But generally, I think like a 
very interesting kind of stress 

777
00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,200
test at the real environment. 
Of course, of course, like 

778
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,500
unfortunately, a lot of people 
lost money, Me including all 

779
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:06,300
these organizations or lost 
business and really like a huge 

780
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:09,100
blow-up of course. 
But I guess it also kind of 

781
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:11,900
proof that some of these 
infrastructures actually ready 

782
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:18,800
for really big kind of users, 
which is maybe not necessarily 

783
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,200
true. 
Even for like centralized system

784
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:25,600
sometimes where things might 
fall apart more than what we see

785
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,400
in there. 
So, yeah, thanks for that. 

786
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,400
I think one of the big things 
that also in this event And 

787
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,500
happened. 
I guess it's because of the 

788
00:46:35,508 --> 00:46:42,800
price disparity on different 
networks there, and Luna, cries 

789
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,700
crashing fast, and people trying
to Arbitrage it and stuff like 

790
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:47,800
this. 
So there's a lot of like this 

791
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:52,600
Mev I guess. 
Essentially on in that moment, 

792
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,500
especially which which makes up 
I think a lot of the overall Mev

793
00:46:56,500 --> 00:47:00,700
and some of these networks like 
these terrible events, how from 

794
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:04,100
the warm our perspective was 
there anything like notable from

795
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:10,100
Dad's you, is there, is there 
anything that That Wormhole like

796
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:13,400
I guess that that impacted it or
that facilitated it or that you 

797
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,500
saw. 
Yeah, yeah. 

798
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,200
So so one kind of product not 
problem. 

799
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:24,100
One of the one of the, one of 
the challenges Woodbridge egg is

800
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:26,900
that inherently because you're 
going from one infrastructure to

801
00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:29,500
another. 
If you have, for example, a 

802
00:47:29,508 --> 00:47:32,300
market of, if you have a liquid 
Market of a token on two 

803
00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:35,200
different infrastructure 
providers, you're going to have 

804
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,800
price disparity and this is 
actually not even. 

805
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,000
A blockchain problem. 
This is just a markets problem. 

806
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,300
If you have two markets to to 
markets, are going to have 

807
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:45,800
different prices, right? 
Whether that's a centralized to 

808
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,700
marketplaces or decentralized 
Market places, it doesn't really

809
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:51,900
matter by the virtue of them, 
being different marketplaces or,

810
00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:57,200
or to have different prices. 
And so when people bridging 

811
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,200
tokens back and forth between 
portal, you know, they often 

812
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,400
were doing so to try to take 
advantage of price disparity on 

813
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,700
one markets, a Auto Salon on 
Siro. 

814
00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:10,600
Or another on you swap on 
etherium and so on. 

815
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,200
But again, that doesn't really 
have anything to do with normal 

816
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,900
technicals. 
That was just it was something 

817
00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:22,400
that we could enable Wormhole 
could enable with people taking 

818
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,100
advantage. 
And I don't actually think 

819
00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:27,000
that's a negative thing because 
that's basically how we 

820
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,600
normalize price, right? 
If there was no way for people 

821
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,500
to be able to bridge currencies 
from 12 from one infrastructure 

822
00:48:34,500 --> 00:48:37,800
to another, then you would have 
even higher price disparity. 

823
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,800
Because you would be able to 
normalize that price but because

824
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,100
people could bridge that 
currency back and forth between 

825
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:47,800
two infrastructure providers. 
There's there's a much more 

826
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,900
easier path to normalization of 
that price. 

827
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:53,200
Yeah, I think I agree there, I 
guess also. 

828
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,200
Like, yeah, if you don't have 
that, may be the only way or 

829
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,000
like people that can do it are 
more there where there is like, 

830
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,200
some centralized component that 
is able to like trade on both 

831
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,900
sides or just like allows you to
bridge like I guess like just a 

832
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:10,700
centralized exchange. 
So definitely this is, I guess 

833
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:14,200
better by nature of just being 
accessible to everyone and not. 

834
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:19,300
Yeah, including everyone. 
So I think that that's really 

835
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:21,600
cool. 
I mean that really It goes to 

836
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,100
show how important that is. 
This infrastructure also is in a

837
00:49:26,107 --> 00:49:30,700
sense, this Tara applications 
and everything was like some of 

838
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:33,800
the most used stuff on Wormhole 
and maybe you can talk a little 

839
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,900
bit about what right now, a lot 
like exciting application. 

840
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:41,200
I think we also touched upon a 
bit, a little bit in, in the 

841
00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:44,900
course of this interview, but 
maybe you can also talk a little

842
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:47,700
bit more about like, what, what,
some exciting things that are 

843
00:49:47,707 --> 00:49:51,000
being built on Wormhole right 
now that that you're seeing, or 

844
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,000
maybe also that you're not 
seeing and you want to see. 

845
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,900
So, like a lot of stuff that is 
being built is a lot of defy 

846
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:01,600
stuff which is very exciting. 
You know, took him swaps and 

847
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:05,700
things like that nature, things 
that I wish were more, people 

848
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:10,600
were building on top of Wormhole
would be things of the like 

849
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:15,800
cross chain governance or cross 
chain games, and using va's is 

850
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,100
identity modules. 
And all of these, there are some

851
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:21,500
Advanced things you can do with 
Wormhole that people haven't 

852
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:25,000
really tapped into yet. 
Because again, the current 

853
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:30,400
Zeitgeist has been around 
tokens, which makes sense right 

854
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,400
tokens. 
Everyone loves tokens but I like

855
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,800
as a personal note, I think 
there's a lot of really cool, 

856
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,000
non token, use cases that I'm 
excited for people to really tap

857
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:45,800
into and build on such as cross 
chain governance, right? 

858
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:47,800
Makes sense, I think. 
Yeah, ride. 

859
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,900
You like your job, I guess. 
Also like maybe let's talk a 

860
00:50:50,908 --> 00:50:53,800
little bit or on Dad, like, I 
guess developer relations That's

861
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,900
right. 
So from the developer 

862
00:50:56,900 --> 00:50:59,300
perspective maybe just a 
question as the general again. 

863
00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:05,300
I guess how what developers 
interacts with Wormhole 

864
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:06,700
actually? 
What's the best way? 

865
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:09,100
Is there like a? 
Also like a plug-in? 

866
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:13,000
If I say, like I'm a dab that I 
can kind of somehow have 

867
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,600
Wormhole be plugged in into my 
that or how does it look in 

868
00:51:16,607 --> 00:51:18,700
practice and maybe also like, 
what are you working on to? 

869
00:51:18,700 --> 00:51:20,900
Make that even easier. 
Yeah, so integrating with 

870
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:24,200
Wormhole is a spectrum on the 
very Easy side. 

871
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,300
You can just integrate with 
Wormhole by just accepting 

872
00:51:26,300 --> 00:51:28,800
Wormhole assets, right? 
Like just accepting portal 

873
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,400
assets natively. 
So if you just do that, you have

874
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,700
done the, you know, a very easy 
integration on the more advanced

875
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:39,700
side, you can do it a trations 
with Wormhole by sending 

876
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:43,300
messages back and forth. 
Using the Wormhole core layer, 

877
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,400
which is a much more advanced 
integration. 

878
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,100
So you can learn all about the 
different types of Integrations 

879
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:54,400
and how to get started with 
doing all of this at book dot 

880
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,100
Wormhole.com. 
This is our documentation for 

881
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:02,500
developers and we're working on 
a number of sample projects that

882
00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:06,900
documentation doesn't live yet. 
I'm working on it but there's 

883
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:09,300
there's going to be a number of 
sample projects that actually 

884
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:12,800
show you how to make use of 
things going back and forth and 

885
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,100
being able to launch in 
production. 

886
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:22,400
So right, like we talked about 
this, I think if you're I guess 

887
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,100
there's also like other things 
you're working on to you 

888
00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:29,900
mentioned a hacker house. 
That jump was hosting I guess in

889
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:33,200
general. 
What kind of initiatives do you 

890
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:37,200
have to? 
I guess recruit developers are 

891
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,800
like, help them or. 
Yeah. 

892
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,500
Get this ecosystem going. 
Yeah. 

893
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:47,700
So there's we're working. 
Right now, X hack, which is 

894
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,600
jump, jump cryptos. 
Premier event is a cross chain 

895
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,300
chain agnostic act on it. 
Starting Monday of this week 

896
00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:59,100
which I don't know when this 
podcast will go live but it'll 

897
00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:04,000
be September 26, you know, and 
it'll go for four weeks. 

898
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,500
So we're working with developers
at all. 

899
00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:10,100
Different ecosystems and 
challenging them to like get 

900
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:12,800
started with working on working 
on Wormhole stuff. 

901
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,400
So that's that's one of the Big 
Avenues right now that, you 

902
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,900
know, all of us, our heads down,
trying to get that, get that 

903
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:23,600
going. 
Yeah, that sounds pretty 

904
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,300
exciting, and I hope we're not 
really using this way too late. 

905
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:31,000
That no one can look into this, 
but if we do, then hopefully 

906
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,600
there's like some exciting use 
cases, come up, come out of that

907
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,700
that you can look at and maybe 
expand on. 

908
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:40,200
I think that's that's all the 
questions I had. 

909
00:53:40,900 --> 00:53:45,500
They have thanks so much for 
coming on for talking to us 

910
00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:48,800
about Wormhole and giving us a 
bit better view since I think, 

911
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,700
you know, a lot of the mystery 
may be Around 8:00. 

912
00:53:52,700 --> 00:53:55,900
If you're not like in this 
ecosystem, I think our listeners

913
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:59,800
that will also have learned a 
lot today, so that I really 

914
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,300
appreciate it. 
If there's anything else you 

915
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:07,300
wanna shout out to or, like 
talked about, now it's time. 

916
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,500
But yeah, thanks so much for 
joining me today and best of 

917
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:13,800
luck. 
Thank you, Felix. 

918
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:17,700
Thank you for joining us on this
week's episode. 

919
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,700
We release new episodes every 
week. 

920
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,000
You can find And subscribe to 
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921
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,100
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922
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,300
And if you have a Google home or
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923
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,200
listen to the latest episode of 
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924
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,300
epicenter dot TV /, subscribe 
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925
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:37,900
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926
00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:40,800
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927
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,200
they're released. 
If you want to interact with us 

928
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:45,900
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929
00:54:45,908 --> 00:54:48,800
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930
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,800
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931
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,200
Well thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.