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This is epicenter, episode 493 
would guess, choose a macedo. 

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Welcome to epicenter the show 
which talks about the 

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Technologies projects and people
driving decentralization and the

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blockchain revolution, I'm 
feeling slow chat, I'm here 

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today with Brian crane. 
Today, we're speaking with 

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chosen macedo, who is head of 
Delphi Labs, that file apps is 

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part of Delphi digital, a 
pioneering, crypto company that 

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has three divisions research, 
Ventures and laughs the main 

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focus of f of x. 
At this point, is Mars protocol 

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and ud5 focus top-billed 
leveraging. 

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The cosmos stack. 
You're welcome, Jose to 

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epicenter. 
Thanks very much for having me 

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big fan of the show and of of 
you guys as well. 

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Yeah, awesome. 
Yeah so glad to have you on 

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after so many years of being 
like in a similar space so as is

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customary on on epicenter. 
I guess the first question we 

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asked and really is sort of, you
know, how did you end up in 

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crypto? 
So I think for you this is a 

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quite interesting story. 
So excited to hear a bit about 

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it. 
Yeah, it's a long as it's a long

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story. 
I started off playing in my, in 

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my teens kind of playing, 
professional poker, which was 

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the way that I first got into, 
like, economics and Game Theory 

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and stuff like that, then I went
to University, studied politics 

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philosophy and economics. 
There started a couple 

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businesses, including like, very
random businesses like a 

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cleaning company, a martial arts
academy, all sorts of different 

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different stuff. 
And then actually someone came 

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like a friend of a friend came 
to train at my martial arts 

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academy, and this person who 
still in crypto, but I think 

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doesn't like to be Ducks has 
quite a bit as well in terms of 

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getting people into crypto, but 
they kind of talk to me about 

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and it just made sense to me 
pretty much instantly. 

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I had heard about Bitcoin a 
bunch of times before people 

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even offered to settle. 
Look into it. 

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And also it wouldn't have played
for me. 

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I think the kind of just pure 
non-sovereign money thing, but 

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the world computer thesis 
really, really did click for me.

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And so pretty much like a week 
later, I had put everything on 

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hold, like, all the businesses 
and everything and it was just 

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kind of diving down the rabbit 
hole. 

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Reading everything I could on on
crypto and I'm like, monetary 

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history and all sorts of stuff 
like that. 

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And then yes started working in 
the space pretty soon after just

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because I wanted to find more 
smart people to kind of learn 

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alongside It started off as a as
an analyst at a company called 

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like amazed expect in the days, 
you know, if you guys remember 

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that as like a community 
management company from from, 

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from the Ico days, I was just 
like speaking to a bunch of 

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Founders. 
Assessing a bunch of projects. 

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We worked with like bank or and 
a bunch of other kind of cool 

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projects. 
And I was writing research, I'm 

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on my blog in my spare time and 
kind of connected through that 

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with with outside written a post
on aetherium back with a theorem

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just was just kept going down. 
And people were saying that, 

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that that there would never 
capture value that it was going 

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to zero those, the famous, Texas
Capitol blog, if you remember 

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that, where they were like, 
short the theorem and I just 

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wrote a piece just basically 
said, why, I was bullish, 

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ethereum and Valley. 
Captured actually talked about 

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the IP 1559, which was already 
being discussed in the ethereum 

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forms back then, and yeah, 
Delphi cited me, one of their 

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research reports, and then I 
went on their podcast, we 

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started collaborating and kind 
of the rest is history. 

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Arted, Delphi Ventures, 
co-founded that and then 

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co-founded Delphi labs. 
So definitely sort of like an 

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interesting and you know, 
unusual type of organization 

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because if you can talk a little
bit about, you know, how to tell

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if I get started. 
And like, you know what, did it 

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look like when you joined? 
So when I joined Delphi was a 

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pure research company. 
So and that's kind of how it 

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started. 
So most of the the kind of 

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co-founders on the research side
come from traditional Finance 

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actually from from equity 
research at Bloomberg and 

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Deutsche Bank. 
And in 2018 they fell down the 

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cliff the rabbit hole and 
thought you know if we can get 

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paid so just like learn about 
crypto and write about crypto 

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that's like the dream job so 
they started that and just 

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started writing like really good
research, right? 

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I mean I remember at the time 
when Started in crypto, I 

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started in 2017, but by the 
time, I was really looking into 

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this stuff, I was reading by 
far, the best research in the 

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space and what I was doing was 
mainly Consulting, amazing. 

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So, I started off analyzing 
projects and then I kind of 

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figured out that the main 
problem that every project had 

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was just like token academics. 
Like the a lot of times the 

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project was cool but the token 
just didn't make any sense. 

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It was just like a medium of 
exchange, right? 

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Like you in order to use this 
network, you need to use our 

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token and that was like, never 
going to capture value. 

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You and so I kind of built a 
niche just focused on designing 

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good. 
Good. 

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So komodos and that was going 
with you. 

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Well, and basically I came to 
Delphi to help with research but

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also lead the Consulting side of
the time. 

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So oftentimes was mainly 
focused, purely on research and 

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then when I joined, we started 
labs and started focusing on 

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Consulting where we did like 
token design mechanism design, 

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eventually smart contract work 
as well for projects, like Ave 

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and door chain and Bouncer and 
stuff like that. 

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Pretty much. 
At the same time, we started the

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Delphi Ventures which is which 
was our fund. 

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So I was a long story but we 
basically spent all of 2019 

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trying to raise money. 
We have this anchor investor 

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that was like started off in 
four, twenty ten for ten and 

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four five. 
Then like didn't didn't end up 

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investing anything and had a 
bunch of other funny fundraising

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stories from 2019. 
I mean I think we're pretty bad 

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fundraising but it was also 
really hard in 2019 with the 

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bear market and stuff. 
Everyone thought crypto is Dead 

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had a bunch of meetings like all
around Europe and the world, the

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people that was super 
frustrating, like, remember 

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having one dinner with one guy 
and at the end of the dinner, he

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was like, oh yeah, but I'm, I'm 
in, but can I pay cash? 

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I was like, no, we can't, we 
can't blow into your money, sir.

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I'm really sorry. 
So yeah, it's really 

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frustrating, but in the end we 
didn't get any external 

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investors for for Avengers. 
And so we ended up putting in 

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just our own money. 
So we found synthetics was it 

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was a project were really 
bullish on and we worked with 

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them on their risk framework. 
And stuff. 

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And so we made a bit of money 
there and then we found through 

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our chain, which we want it to 
be the first investment for the 

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fund because we thought it was 
just synthetics. 

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But for a use case that had like
more product Market fit, you 

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know, like it was clear that 
people wanted to trade Bitcoin 

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on Chen, whereas synthetics like
it wasn't this clearly wanted to

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trade synthetic assets. 
So we wanted to invest in it, 

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make it the first investment of 
the fund and we made an OTC deal

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with the team and then at the 
time that was going to close our

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investor pulled out and we just 
like put in our own money. 

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Money basically levered up like 
credit card debt and everything 

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and yeah, started with about a 
million dollars of our own 

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Capital, the seven of us 
together and kind of grew it 

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from there. 
Yeah, it's really cool. 

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And I think, you know, 
obviously, today we're also here

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a lot to talk about Labs, which 
your head of, and you sort of 

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mentioned, it was created in 
parallel, sort of, for the 

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Consulting first. 
But then you also, you know, 

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started basically incubating or 
building your own projects. 

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Can you talk a little bit about 
how that came about, for sure. 

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And so yeah, people get confused
about that Fashion World, equal 

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Partners in kind of the three 
businesses roughly and then we 

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will focus on different parts. 
So there's the research the 

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ventures, and the labs, and 7. 
We all focus on different parts 

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of the business. 
So yeah. 

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Lab started off focused on 
Consulting. 

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So yeah, did some work with Ivan
torch and stuff at some point we

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realized that we gained a lot of
Ip and and built a really good 

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team doing consulting and 
Consulting tends to get like a 

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bit frustrating after a while, 
right? 

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Because people don't always take
your ideas on and you just you 

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just feel like you want to be in
their building rather than like 

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kind of Consulting on how to 
build and So it's just like cell

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cycles and Gantt charts and 
stuff like at a certain point 

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you kind of get bored of doing 
all that stuff. 

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And so yeah, we started kind of 
incubating our project projects 

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from from scratch and at the 
time we had n defied kind of 

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Salon in Terror as its 
ecosystems. 

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We were most bullish on started 
building building on on, on both

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of those, but quickly, kind of 
realized Solano was way earlier 

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and more difficult to build on 
them. 

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The entire this was like an 
early 2021 like, I'm getting 

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your transactions included in a 
block in Solana back. 

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Then was difficult and there was
a bunch of like closed Source, 

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libraries and stuff. 
The made it the made of 

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challenging. 
So we ended up making the kind 

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of fateful decision to focus 
most of our building efforts on 

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Terra and that started off 
really well launched kind of 

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Astro Port first and then and 
then Mars on Tara? 

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Yeah, it was there a pretty 
successful while Terror was 

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successful. 
Last report had about, you know,

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one to two billion and TBL. 
It was a top-five decentralized 

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exchange by volume within like a
month of lunch. 

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Yeah. 
And had a pretty exciting, robot

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plan. 
And then Mars also had about 

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nearly a billion in TV Land was 
yeah it was just getting kind of

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getting getting started one when
Tara collapsed since then we've 

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been kind of obviously working 
with those projects to help them

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find a new home. 
Did a bunch of research on that 

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ended up choosing Cosmos has a 
new home and you know wrote a 

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big research report on that and 
it has to report is now live on 

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on a bunch of different chains 
on Cosmos, Mars has its own 

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chain and then has its first 
outpost on on osmosis and yeah I

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guess the evolution was started 
off with Consulting. 

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Then we went to kind of building
our and incubating are on our 

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own projects and the idea of 
that was always that Mars and 

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asked report would be kind of an
example of showing people what 

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we can do and and like how how 
successful we can be in the 

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value, we can have two projects 
and then we could use that as an

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example to kind of attract other
smart. 

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Builders to come to come and 
build with us and scale it out 

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from there. 
But Mars and asked report kind 

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of became so successful at a 
certain point that they didn't 

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make sense for us to do anything
else. 

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And now we're and also like the 
required, a lot of our 

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attention. 
But now those projects are 

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pretty much independent and so 
we were focused back on the, on 

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the accelerator and I'm kind of 
attracting new Builders it to 

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work on like all the other ideas
that we think are exciting as 

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well. 
Well, yeah, you definitely want 

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to talk more about the 
accelerator later. 

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So if you're cetera, right? 
So you guys are focusing on the 

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terror ecosystem. 
What what do you biggest 

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learnings from that episode? 
We went into Tara with, with our

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eyes like wide open, to be 
honest. 

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So like we had been involved in 
ESD before and and like, we'd 

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always been kind of fascinated, 
by decentralized, stable coins. 

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I think maker was the first 
project we have recovered on the

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research side as well. 
So, we kind of understood the 

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risks. 
And we always pointed out the 

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risks and like wrote threads 
about the risks and stuff. 

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So, it's hard to say that, that 
what happened was, like, people 

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call it a Black Swan, it 
definitely wasn't a Black Swan, 

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right? 
It was, it was, it was a known. 

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Risk. 
But I think probably one thing I

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learned in general, from from 
from 2022 was just that like 

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building wrote like in crypto, 
everything that can break we'll 

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break and so I think building 
robustness into your systems and

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building for the long term is 
more important than kind of like

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short-term success. 
And I think you saw a lot of 

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examples of like stuff breaking 
and in 2022 that looked like it 

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was super That's all right. 
Whether it's whether it's Tara 

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or FTX even like I remember 
after a certain point had like 

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00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,800
even I think well into sort of 
2021, they had like 

226
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,000
100-something employees and I 
was like that's not that much 

227
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,700
bigger than labs and look what 
they've built like damn this. 

228
00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,900
These guys are like super smart,
you know where we need to? 

229
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:15,400
We need to catch up, we need to 
work harder and then you realize

230
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,900
that there were like holding 
private keys on a Google Docs, 

231
00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:19,600
right? 
And doing all sorts of crazy 

232
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,300
stuff like taking all sorts of 
shortcuts and I think 2022 ended

233
00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:24,800
up. 
Revealing a lot of that, a lot 

234
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,800
of the projects that you thought
were successful, we're taking 

235
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,300
shortcuts that you couldn't see,
but they became obvious as soon 

236
00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:35,500
as there was like market 
stressor and I think a lot of 

237
00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:39,500
the times the projects were that
happens is where the flows are 

238
00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:42,100
sort of covered up by 
charismatic leaders of some 

239
00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:43,100
sort. 
Right? 

240
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,000
Where you know, humans are 
naturally attracted to kind of 

241
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,300
like charismatic leaders who 
want to you you want to follow 

242
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,700
and I think the projects where 
that ended up being the biggest 

243
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:53,500
problem was when where there was
that? 

244
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,900
When people kind of look past 
the flaws of the project because

245
00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,400
they had this, this kind of 
magic meter. 

246
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,500
So I think one big lesson that 
it reinforced was kind of the 

247
00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:04,900
yeah, don't trust verify and 
just be more annoyed. 

248
00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:07,900
Like, kind of our GC game 
Shapiro says, like be more 

249
00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:13,300
suspicious of what's going on. 
And I think that was probably 

250
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:16,800
one of my biggest learnings from
2022 and it also affected how we

251
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,800
like, build, how we incubate and
how we think about the space, 

252
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,800
we've always been pretty 
long-term oriented and actually 

253
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,700
like Tara was a was a long-term 
bet when we made it like Tara 

254
00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:28,700
wouldn't when we started 
building on it was nowhere near.

255
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:32,200
What it what it ended up as like
UST Supply was under a bill 

256
00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:36,400
while under a bill and and so 
like and we felt that if that 

257
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,100
wouldn't take off until there 
was some pressure on centralized

258
00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:41,300
stable coins which would which 
would take a while. 

259
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:43,900
And so just wanted to kind of 
build towards that definitely 

260
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:46,500
didn't expect. 
This is the the success it had 

261
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,600
and think like in hindsight it's
pretty apparent that like anchor

262
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,700
was a mistake. 
Keeping yield that high was a 

263
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:55,300
mistake. 
Yeah, and it was frustrating 

264
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:57,100
because I didn't get ended up 
being the mistake, that every 

265
00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,100
other algorithmic, stable, quite
mad. 

266
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:03,100
She just a gross apply to, to 
quickly compared to like the the

267
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:05,500
base of real demand that their 
actually is. 

268
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,900
So yeah, it said I was the that 
was the biggest lesson and did 

269
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:18,600
you like I guess building Mars 
Back Then and Now building like 

270
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,800
its own cause your own Cosmos 
chain with it. 

271
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,300
Did you apply like these 
learnings you would you say like

272
00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:26,900
in practicing in some sense, 
like could you give an example, 

273
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:29,800
maybe of how you Yeah. 
It's a great. 

274
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,500
It's a great question. 
Yep. 

275
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:36,500
First of all, we always focus on
like five years from now or like

276
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:38,500
10 years from now when we're 
thinking about making these 

277
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,100
decisions, like in terms of 
product in terms of protocol, 

278
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:45,400
like like and so, one example 
could be one we're looking 

279
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,000
around for where to build like 
layer choose looked really 

280
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,600
exciting, but realistically, 
layer choose are still extremely

281
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,900
centralized, right? 
You're relying on like a 

282
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,900
centralized sequencer most of 
them don't even have. 

283
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,600
Fred proofs in production of 
Assisi caves is very far away. 

284
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:05,400
And so for us that was like 
something that we didn't want to

285
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:07,600
deal with like we do we do we 
didn't want to deal with those 

286
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,100
centralization risks and those 
like potential technical 

287
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:14,100
technical issues, the same thing
with kind of Apt us and Suey. 

288
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:17,600
It was like they were exciting 
ecosystems but still very early 

289
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,700
for us and like Cosmos dress 
like the the kind of Cosmos SDK 

290
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:25,000
stack was super battle tested, 
right? 

291
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,200
Even tear itself. 
The collapse of Terror was like,

292
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,600
kind of a notch on On that 
Stacks, you know? 

293
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,600
Yeah, like that, it made it, 
it's really robust. 

294
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,000
So that was like, one of the, 
one of the big reasons why we 

295
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,200
decided to stay on Cosmos. 
And also why we decided to kind 

296
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,600
of, or the project decided to 
launch literature on chain 

297
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,300
because it's just like the way 
that gives you the most control 

298
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,000
and flexibility over over over 
what you're doing. 

299
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,600
And so yeah that I think that 
was a big thing. 

300
00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,100
Also like why I decided to kind 
of launch an osmosis because we 

301
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:02,100
thought that team was Long-term 
oriented throws a like again, 

302
00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:07,700
very battle-tested stock. 
So that was an example of kind 

303
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:10,400
of that coming into play. 
But I think in general, you can 

304
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,700
kind of see it in a bunch of 
like small decisions that you 

305
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:16,500
have to make day today about how
to do things whether to take 

306
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:18,000
shortcuts or not. 
You know. 

307
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,800
Like if you want to list even 
listening something like St at 

308
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,700
some right, you see a lot of 
other money markets this that 

309
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:27,200
and just use the atom article 
price, you know. 

310
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,400
And that's that's like most of 
the Time that might be fine but 

311
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,800
there's some percentage of the 
time where it deep eggs in the 

312
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,100
protocol actions up with bad 
debt and sort of Mars will never

313
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:39,400
will never use. 
Take take shortcuts like that, 

314
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:40,800
right? 
Oh, it's always going to be be 

315
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,200
trying to do it the right way 
even if it takes longer, even if

316
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,900
it means it's not as not a 
competitive, not as competitive,

317
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:47,800
or product in the short term. 
Yeah. 

318
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,000
And there's a, there's a, 
there's like loads of I think 

319
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,700
when you're that the an exercise
that we did actually labs and 

320
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,600
which was really cool was just 
doing the values thing. 

321
00:16:56,700 --> 00:17:00,200
Like I always thought that was 
just like corporate Um you know 

322
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,300
like very corporate thing yoke 
is because most values are just 

323
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,300
like sound bites, right? 
Like honesty or like Integrity 

324
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:10,500
or whatever and I think the way 
to do those values, right is to 

325
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:13,900
have values that actually have 
like meaningful opposites right?

326
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:16,800
Where there could be. 
We're like let's say you choose 

327
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,099
for example long-term oriented 
you some, some companies value, 

328
00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:25,300
like Facebook is like ship fast 
and break things, right? 

329
00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:28,800
Which which is like in a sense 
the the opposite of long term or

330
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:30,900
And like long-term earns, it 
might mean you actually ship 

331
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,000
slower and you don't move as 
fast. 

332
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:36,000
And so I think like having those
setting up those values is 

333
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,700
really important. 
And for us we're definitely more

334
00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:40,100
on the slower. 
More careful side, especially 

335
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:43,600
after what happened in 2022. 
Just kind of reinforce that, and

336
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,100
it also means like certain 
projects that are out there 

337
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,500
right now. 
I don't want to mention them 

338
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:51,100
them by name but like somebody 
threw out there right now that 

339
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:52,500
they're like, growing really 
fast. 

340
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,100
It definitely have like problems
with their with their Tech 

341
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:57,900
stack. 
Whether it's like, multi Sig's 

342
00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,800
holding, you know, Billions and 
billions of dollars or just like

343
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,900
unstable chains or like with the
that have like deep reorg. 

344
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:08,700
So whatever. 
I think those things are things 

345
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:11,400
that were much more careful with
right now. 

346
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,100
When we think about launching 
somewhere, So let's talk a 

347
00:18:15,108 --> 00:18:18,000
little bit about more. 
So, on a high level, like what 

348
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,100
is the vision for Mars? 
And how has the vision changed? 

349
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:26,600
Since the time you were building
on terror or versus like, where 

350
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,900
it is today? 
The best way to describe kind of

351
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:33,300
the vision for Mars in my mind 
and obviously different people 

352
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,500
have, it's a decentralized 
projects or different people 

353
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:39,000
have different Visions for it in
different beliefs on where it 

354
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,100
should go. 
But for me it's like like an FTX

355
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,800
like experience for defy and 
like that sounds. 

356
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,600
Even like that was the vision 
before I have 2X collapse and I 

357
00:18:47,608 --> 00:18:49,900
think now it makes even more 
sense. 

358
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,000
Why you'd want that, right? 
Why you actually want to 

359
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,700
decentralized and not 
centralized and they are doing 

360
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:59,500
with that is just having this 
this sub account, where Are able

361
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,500
to have like, all your default 
positions, your yield farming, 

362
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:07,700
your lping, you're staking your 
trading all in one single 

363
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:10,400
account with a single kind of 
like, margin threshold. 

364
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,600
And so the, the way I think 
about it is kind of like 

365
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,200
building a sub account for defy,
where you can do all your 

366
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,300
unchain activity, from this one 
account, and perform like levers

367
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:23,300
interactions with, with every 
single protocol from from one 

368
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:25,800
account. 
And for me, that was the real, 

369
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:29,000
that was the reason that I like 
the end that I used FTX. 

370
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,500
Over a rather exchanges, right? 
When you use something like 

371
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:36,600
Finance, it's like you have like
your spot account and then 

372
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,200
you're isolated margin account 
in your cross margin account, 

373
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,600
and your futures account, and 
like, everything is separated 

374
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:42,600
out. 
You have to transfer from 

375
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,500
account to account and it's like
everything was built by 

376
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:47,000
different teams. 
They don't really talk to each 

377
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,300
other and it's just not a great 
user experience. 

378
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:51,000
You can end up getting 
liquidated on your futures 

379
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,000
account, even though you have a 
bunch on your on your son, your 

380
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,600
spot account, right? 
As it is just not as capital 

381
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,000
efficient. 
So, and I think that's 

382
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,400
ultimately, The name of the game
and Define finances like Capital

383
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,100
efficiency, right? 
You want your your Capital to 

384
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,800
sit somewhere where you can do 
the most things with it? 

385
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,100
And I think if you build that 
there's a bunch of stuff stuff 

386
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:15,600
that can that can come off it 
because for example, I think 

387
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,200
stable coins actually is also a 
capital efficiency problem and 

388
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,300
something that can be that can 
be built on top of a system like

389
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:26,800
this because like I think 
algorithmic designs are kind of 

390
00:20:26,808 --> 00:20:30,500
like that. 
At least I won't be You know, 

391
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,000
fucking around and finding out 
with, with algorithmic designs 

392
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,900
anymore. 
And so, I think what you have 

393
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:38,700
left is just like that based 
designs and the issue with that 

394
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:40,400
based designs is like a capsule 
problem, right? 

395
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400
It's really hard to bootstrap 
enough enough Capital, to 

396
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,500
actually, to actually make a 
stable coined this large enough 

397
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,000
to satisfy like the man for 
stable coin. 

398
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,300
And so, what you end up seeing 
is they have to take on 

399
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,500
centralized collateral and they 
just don't grow that fast, 

400
00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:56,300
right? 
And so, although successful 

401
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,000
stable coins, end up being built
around centralized Exchange. 

402
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:01,900
Ages because they have the most 
Capital, right? 

403
00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:04,000
Like u.s. 
DC was built around, coinbase 

404
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,000
tether was built around 
bitfenix, back in the day and be

405
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,000
USD, was go around finance and 
those are the three biggest 

406
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,900
centralized stable coins by 
market cap. 

407
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:17,200
And so my kind of hypothesis is 
that the winning decentralized 

408
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,200
stable coin will be built around
the winning decentralized 

409
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,800
exchange because it's just a 
debt product. 

410
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,600
It's like another debt, you can 
issue against your account and 

411
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,000
so I think whoever ends up 
building that decentralized FTX 

412
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:32,900
We'll end up having like being 
in a good position to build 

413
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:36,300
decentralized, stable coins and 
a bunch of other kind of like, 

414
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:39,500
important things. 
Right? 

415
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:45,400
And Chris is back in the 
beginning, you know, you were 

416
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,100
building on terror, right? 
So, it was basically an 

417
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:52,300
application on the terror chain,
whereas now, it's sort of like 

418
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,800
its own chain. 
But like, you know, this Outpost

419
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,900
concept which I think you're 
maybe we can get into. 

420
00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:07,100
Is that is that how what does 
what changes that? 

421
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:11,600
Did you did you also when it was
on care, of example, that you 

422
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,200
also imagine that you would like
to try to integrate lots of 

423
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,700
assets from other chains. 
Why are some sort of bridges? 

424
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,000
Or like how did you imagine that
back then? 

425
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:26,900
Yeah, I think with Mars 
actually, the plan was always to

426
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,800
eventually be its own chain. 
We kind of saw that as a, as a, 

427
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,800
as an interesting model and and 
like, we didn't, like, obviously

428
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,400
there's two ways to yeah. 
Well, so yeah. 

429
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,300
I want to start off with an 
application on terror. 

430
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:45,100
I think we almost saw the appeal
of being being being its own 

431
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:49,600
chain, but it was more. 
So so that it could be anywhere 

432
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,000
because Mars is a, is, is a 
credit protocol, right? 

433
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,600
And so, Ideally should be 
available anywhere that there 

434
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,700
can be demand for credit. 
And at the time, the most demand

435
00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:00,400
for credit was on was on Tara, 
Tara had the most growth the 

436
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,500
most like stable coins as well 
and so it had the most demand 

437
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,900
for credit but we definitely saw
like we were never tell him Max.

438
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:09,400
He's right. 
We we knew there would be other 

439
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,900
ecosystems that succeeded. 
And so we wanted a like a chance

440
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:17,300
to be on there. 
And this sort of have an outpost

441
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:21,800
design, which actually Sonny was
one of the one of the original 

442
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,200
people who Kind of describe this
to us made a lot of sense to us 

443
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,400
because with with credit it 
makes like there's kind of two 

444
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,400
options when you when you build 
these app chains, right? 

445
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,200
The one is you put like all the 
assets on the on the option 

446
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,400
basically and make everyone move
that move their assets over or 

447
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,300
you keep all the assets on the 
edge right on these on these 

448
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,000
outposts. 
And like the first model is kind

449
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,700
of like Fortune, right? 
And the second model is more 

450
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,900
like sushi where it has a person
of under bunch of different 

451
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:55,400
chains and for us for Protocol 
the latter always made more 

452
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,900
sense because if you want to 
build a decentralized FTX like 

453
00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:03,100
experience and build that 
winning decentralized exchange, 

454
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,300
you kind of need synchronicity 
and atomicity, right? 

455
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,300
You need things to happen fast 
and ideally to be on the same 

456
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,700
execution environment so that 
you can do things like 

457
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,300
liquidations right where you 
need to contract needs to 

458
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,500
observe another contract State, 
and then call, you know, call 

459
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,500
liquidation function. 
This kind of thing, we wanted 

460
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:22,200
that to happen synchronously and
also just like trading itself. 

461
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:25,100
It needs to Needs to be fast. 
Like already five second blocks 

462
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:27,800
aren't that fast. 
And so like, if you have to wait

463
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,500
for Friday, Siri layers and 
stuff is just not really, really

464
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,400
feasible. 
And and so yeah, the vision, the

465
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,100
cool thing about the have an 
outpost model is it means Mars 

466
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:38,000
can expand like, anywhere 
anywhere. 

467
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,000
They like that, the Hub can send
messages to which right now is a

468
00:24:42,008 --> 00:24:43,800
lot of places. 
There's a like with IBC. 

469
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,600
Obviously it's caused much 
James, although there are people

470
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,100
working on Bridges to a theorem 
and stuff as well. 

471
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:51,600
But you can use other Bridges to
send messages anywhere. 

472
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:54,300
Mars could have I'll post 
anywhere, right? 

473
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:58,400
And then it becomes similar to, 
like a traditional, like, the 

474
00:24:58,408 --> 00:25:02,100
metaphor we use, sometimes is 
like the traditional business or

475
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,800
back right, where you have the 
headquarters of the bank, but 

476
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,400
then they have Bank branches, 
all around the country, and 

477
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,800
sometimes also in different 
countries, right? 

478
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:13,900
And that's kind of how we see 
Mars, where you have the Hub, 

479
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:16,200
which is like the headquarters, 
which does the accounting thus 

480
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,000
taking the and governance. 
And then you have all these 

481
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,600
different outposts that serve 
different. 

482
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:26,100
In Chains a different different 
markets as it were with credit. 

483
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:32,700
Yeah. so you, you know, you 
mentioned visionrider of this 

484
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:39,200
FTX decentralised FTS like 
product and then you mention And

485
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,200
I think it is also, you know, 
like spot trading like lending 

486
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:48,100
derivatives and yields a lot of 
different stuff. 

487
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:52,600
Do you imagine that Morrison 
build all of those and where are

488
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:58,000
you focusing right now or would 
it be sort of that like Mars 

489
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,300
will leverage those in different
places and I don't know have 

490
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,100
some sort of yeah can you can 
explain little bit like yet to 

491
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:08,400
what extent is all like 
building. 

492
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,200
Mars versus, you know, kind of 
assembling different pieces 

493
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,000
together. 
For sure. 

494
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,700
And so this was always the. 
So I think the answer is when I 

495
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:21,100
assemble different pieces 
together, when I integrate with,

496
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:25,200
with stuff that already exists, 
rather than build everything and

497
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,700
that was always the vision for 
Mars, right? 

498
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:28,300
And on terror. 
There, it had this primitive 

499
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:31,300
called smart contract, credit 
lines, which kind of Leverage 

500
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:33,000
you. 
Farming is an, is an example of 

501
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,400
that, which is just like, you 
know, if you think about Ave or 

502
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,700
compound, you can only borrow 
less than what you put in, 

503
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,900
right? 
Because You could do anything 

504
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:48,500
with the capital so I can never 
give you more than what you have

505
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,500
is collateral because you could 
just run away with it, right? 

506
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:54,100
And there would be no incentive 
for you to ever pay back with 

507
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,400
with Mars. 
The idea is that Mars can lend 

508
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,200
to Smart contracts that are 
performing a certain action. 

509
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:03,900
So, for example, margin trading 
or leverage deal farming? 

510
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,600
Right? 
And then this Mark. 

511
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,400
So. 
So in the case of margin 

512
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,300
trading, for instance, let's say
you want to go Long, Adam, Mars 

513
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:15,500
could lend, you stable coins and
then by the And hold the item as

514
00:27:15,508 --> 00:27:19,600
collateral and then effectively 
liquid at you, if Adam drops 

515
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,400
below a certain like Threshold 
at specified in the smart 

516
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,500
contract. 
And so, that's much more similar

517
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:26,700
to what a centralized exchange 
does. 

518
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:28,500
Right? 
Where centralized exchange can 

519
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:31,800
give you 100 x leverage on 
something because they hold the 

520
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,200
collateral and what they loan 
you and they can liquidate you 

521
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,100
right. 
Whereas, for a normal money 

522
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:37,500
market, it's difficult to do 
that. 

523
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,500
So the idea with Mars is just to
extend that concept to any kind 

524
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:46,700
of smart contractor or Borrowing
activity, never staking 

525
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,600
leveraged up being even nxt's 
like if they have enough. 

526
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,300
Liquidity could also be included
into this to be anything that 

527
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:58,600
you can do on Chen where it can 
be like the activity can be 

528
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,300
encoded into smart contract and 
the collateral in the smart 

529
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:04,400
contract has enough liquidity 
that Mars can reason about how 

530
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,000
to liquidate it. 
If the activity goes wrong, Mars

531
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,700
can extend credit for it. 
And so, it's like a very cool 

532
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,000
concept because eventually, as 
more and more things get tough, 

533
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,800
Agonized, you can extend it to 
like real world things, right? 

534
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,400
Like a mortgage is effectively 
just a smart contract credit 

535
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,200
line, right? 
As long as the house could be, 

536
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,800
could be tokenized and put into 
a smart contract, then that can 

537
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,800
be included into this. 
And so, the idea with it is is 

538
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,700
not that Mars would go on, like,
build mortgages and build spot 

539
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:36,100
trading and market rate and 
everything like that, but that 

540
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,400
it would integrate with existing
Primitives and act as a sub 

541
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,000
account, built on top of all 
these different defy Primitives.

542
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:46,800
Now there's like, Certify an 
edge case there, which is with 

543
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,600
designs that have their own 
leverage built in because there 

544
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,200
it's it's slightly different. 
So for example, like a CDP like 

545
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,600
a maker like CDP, if Mars were 
to integrate with something like

546
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,400
that then the whole point of 
Mars is that you have this 

547
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,000
credit account with one 
liquidation threshold, right? 

548
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,100
But if you integrate with 
something like a CD P there's 

549
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:09,500
actually two liquidation 
thresholds. 

550
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,800
There's the the CDP liquidation 
threshold and then and then Mars

551
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,100
is like Edit account, the 
quotation threshold. 

552
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,600
And so there's sort of two 
different approaches on how to 

553
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,000
do it. 
The first one is just to do like

554
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,200
a D5 saver like thing of 
rebalancing, right? 

555
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,600
So if your CP is, is, is about 
to get liquid at it, but you 

556
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,800
have extra like borrowing 
capacity on your credit account.

557
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,900
It would just borrow from your 
credit account and add 

558
00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:37,700
collateral to the CDP for 
example, or pay down some of the

559
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:42,800
debt of the CDP and vice versa, 
or Mars can build those itself 

560
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,600
and kind of integrate. 
Them into the credit count 

561
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,600
account itself. 
And I think like one interesting

562
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,300
case where that comes along his 
perps where I think like there's

563
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:56,100
no perps currently live on on 
Cosmos. 

564
00:29:56,100 --> 00:30:00,300
And so some more contributors 
are considering kind of building

565
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:04,300
that up as part of my eye so 
that can be offered as part of 

566
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:09,200
this. 
Yeah, maybe we can take it back 

567
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,500
a bit and you can sort of, I 
guess we talked a lot about Mars

568
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,900
already but maybe it helps to 
sort of break it down into like 

569
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:20,200
the components that Mars has for
the listeners. 

570
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:25,600
Yeah, for sure. 
So I guess the best way to think

571
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,000
about it is, Mars has lenders on
one side, right? 

572
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,800
Which are lending like similar 
to how you would land on Ava or 

573
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,900
compounder or traditional money 
market. 

574
00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:41,500
And then on the other side, you 
have borrowers, which on oven 

575
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:44,300
and compound. 
Its people that like borrowers 

576
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,000
are always lenders as well, 
right? 

577
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,100
You have to deposit Capital into
the into the protocol in order 

578
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:50,800
to lend because you need to have
collateral. 

579
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:56,000
On Mars, you have none lender 
borrowers, right? 

580
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,700
Which are people who are 
actually just like trading or 

581
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:01,200
their leverage, they'll peeing 
or doing something like that and

582
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,700
they're not actually lenders. 
They're just borrowers, right? 

583
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:07,700
But they want to, for example, 
use some u.s. d.c. to go long on

584
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:11,100
Adam or they are they want to 
use some Adam too short, Adam, 

585
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:13,400
right? 
So I think that's the big, the 

586
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,700
big difference that in on on 
Mars you have this other class 

587
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:19,400
of borrower, which doesn't need 
to have collateral on the 

588
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,200
platform but actually just wants
to do. 

589
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,000
Activity with the capital. 
That's, that's, that's being 

590
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,300
lent out on the platform. 
And then, in the middle of that,

591
00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:32,400
you have middle is probably not 
the best way to say it. 

592
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,800
But you have like governance, 
which decides on the risk 

593
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,800
parameters for this different 
lending activity, and 

594
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,400
effectively like its takers, 
would have skin in the game and 

595
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,500
decide how the protocol should 
work. 

596
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,400
What kind of use cases? 
It should lend to. 

597
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,300
And what the risk parameters for
those? 

598
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:54,200
For those use cases should be 
Yeah, so basically, for each, 

599
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,900
like sort of collateral type, 
your settings, some sort of 

600
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:02,700
ratios and this is done via 
governance votes on mars. 

601
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:06,000
Or is there like some 
algorithmic component or is it 

602
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:13,000
like purely governance? 
Yeah, so Mars right now is it's 

603
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,500
like the view one is more like a
traditional money market. 

604
00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:20,900
So yeah, each each collateral 
type would have a would have a 

605
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:24,400
governance vote regarding risk 
parameters and asset listings. 

606
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,900
Go through governance, vote with
with V2. 

607
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,500
That'll be kind of where the 
credit account functionality 

608
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:36,500
goes live and then like every 
specific integration would have 

609
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,200
a governance vote. 
So for example, if someone wants

610
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,500
to Go margin loan, Adam. 
That would be a specific 

611
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:47,300
integration where Mars would 
integrate with the mm on that 

612
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:51,500
chain, whether it's osmosis and 
the case of Osmosis or if it's 

613
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:56,900
elsewhere some other mmm and and
basically like integrate that 

614
00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:59,100
margin trading functionality 
instead of and set risk 

615
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:02,500
parameters for that as well, 
like liquidation levels, Max 

616
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:04,600
leverage, this kind of, this 
kind of thing. 

617
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:10,800
And like, for example, the rate 
at which people can borrow and 

618
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,100
lend, is that sort of a little 
bit like compound or depends on 

619
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:20,500
kind of, you know, the supply 
and demand in is, it's updated 

620
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:25,400
continuously based on that Yep, 
it's very similar to that. 

621
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,800
It's like a curve, like a king 
curve that tries to Target some 

622
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,900
optimal utilization and and 
rates go up like, you know, 

623
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:37,900
Kings at the optimal utilization
and then rates go up. 

624
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,700
Very aggressively to punish kind
of illiquidity. 

625
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,200
We did play around with like a 
dynamic interest rate model 

626
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:48,500
using control theory, but it was
just like too many variables to 

627
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,200
lunch with the start but I still
think that's. 

628
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,200
That's interesting. 
And yeah, there are other things

629
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,900
that are interesting there too 
but I think Now, it's where you 

630
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,800
like, Mars is using the kind of 
algorithmic formula. 

631
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,100
So you talked a little bit about
some of the components in terms 

632
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:07,800
of, you know, borrowers lenders.
What about if you look at it, in

633
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,100
terms of technical architecture,
you know what are the components

634
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:18,500
of Mars protocol, technical 
components of Mars protocol, I 

635
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:22,000
think like Larry or someone very
best position to speak about 

636
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,199
this. 
But there's basically Mars Hub 

637
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:29,900
which is the chain level where 
governance happens staking 

638
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:34,600
happens and and fees get get get
sent there as well. 

639
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,100
Then you have the the Red Bank 
which is kind of like the the 

640
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:42,300
Ave or compound like module 
where you can do lending and 

641
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:47,000
borrowing and the interest rate 
formula is enforced and all 

642
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,199
that. 
And then You have like the 

643
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:52,800
credit account which will be its
own module, which is called the 

644
00:34:52,808 --> 00:34:56,900
credit manager, which 
effectively like managers all 

645
00:34:56,900 --> 00:35:00,000
the different Integrations, that
of different, borrowings that 

646
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:06,100
can be done with Redbank assets.
Yeah, I'm sure like someone like

647
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:07,300
that. 
I could probably go into more 

648
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:13,300
depth but that's, that's the, my
understanding Yeah, makes sense,

649
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,500
I think maybe also like 
interesting to hear sort of 

650
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:18,300
this. 
Mars, I guess, one of the first 

651
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:22,300
to have this, like happened 
spoke model with the that you 

652
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:24,300
have. 
Do you think this is like, going

653
00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:29,000
to be the standard design for 
interchain applications? 

654
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:34,200
I think so, I think in a way it 
already is the the standard 

655
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,800
model like something like Ave or
you to swap. 

656
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,700
Effectively has a model like 
this right where the the Hub 

657
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:43,900
sits on a theorem. 
But then they have outposts on 

658
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:47,700
like polygons an avalanche and 
stuff like that and it's already

659
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:52,000
actually governed from from a 
theorem actually don't know how 

660
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,400
that's done. 
I think there's some form of 

661
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,800
like crushing messaging that's 
use there but that I think that 

662
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,300
are already is like the model 
for a lot of How, how defy works

663
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:07,700
there are there are advantages 
to doing it the cosmos way to 

664
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:10,600
having having your own chain 
instead and then terms of what 

665
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,000
you can do with that. 
But yeah, I do think this is 

666
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,100
going to be like a pretty 
standard model for how about 

667
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:18,500
question applications are are 
deployed. 

668
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,700
So the advantage is being sort 
of that, you have this shared 

669
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:27,400
liquidity across the different 
outposts which I guess. 

670
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,300
I'm gonna swap you don't really 
have since you have like a new 

671
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:33,800
pool and you're not really able 
to share their liquidity. 

672
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,200
There only like the government's
decisions can sort of be 

673
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,000
transported I guess to to the 
other chain. 

674
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,700
Yeah, you could do that. 
I mean like yeah with uni swap 

675
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,700
there is no concept of shared 
liquidity and not with Ave 

676
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:49,800
either but like arbitrageurs 
effect. 

677
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:52,800
If we can, can do that 
functionality right? 

678
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,200
Both on you swap and on other, 
you can you can kind of our are 

679
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,400
the rates. 
I think with Mars. 

680
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,300
The team started off with this 
concept of a bouncer at the 

681
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:07,900
chain level which would 
effectively like move assets 

682
00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:11,300
around the different outposts to
try and equalize the utilization

683
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,300
rates, right? 
Which just means that if there's

684
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:17,500
a lot of borrowing demand in one
place and not so much in the 

685
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:19,800
other then it would move in. 
The set is a lot of borrowing. 

686
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,300
Nylon Chen a, but not so much on
chain B. 

687
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:25,200
It would move assets from Shane 
be to Chennai, to try and like 

688
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,900
satisfy that Demand, right? 
I think now, the team's kind of 

689
00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:34,900
moved away from, from, from that
design, for, for a few reasons, 

690
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:39,000
one of them being that there 
might be a reason why that the, 

691
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,000
the rates are lower and under 
certain chin and hiring another 

692
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,300
one, like people might perceive 
it to be more risky, for 

693
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:47,300
example, and it's in, it's 
useful to have that like Market 

694
00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:50,400
signal and it could also lead to
situations where Like let's say 

695
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,600
chain is being hacked. 
Your just consistently putting 

696
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,300
more Capital into the chain that
that's being hacked, right? 

697
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,100
And so, instead how I think the 
Mars team is thinking of 

698
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,000
implementing that is just as a 
vault strategy, where as a 

699
00:38:01,008 --> 00:38:04,900
depositor, you can choose to 
deposit on one Outpost, or you 

700
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:07,600
can choose to deposit into this 
Vault, that rebalances, your 

701
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,800
deposit around different, 
outposts to maximize the rate, 

702
00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:13,200
right? 
And that way, it's a decision on

703
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,600
the lender side, rather than 
being a protocol and Fortune. 

704
00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:24,900
So one of the especially coming 
back in today, this is why I go 

705
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:28,800
very common criticism that, you 
know, the theorem people would 

706
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,600
have. 
Again, something I caused most 

707
00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:34,700
was that hey, you know, you 
really want to have this sort of

708
00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:37,800
like synchronicity and you know,
you can make like one 

709
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,400
transaction and it calls like, 
you know, different smart 

710
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,500
contracts at the same time. 
And this is like very powerful 

711
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,700
and example of newspapers like 
the / loan thing, right there 

712
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,800
like, In one transaction, you 
can like for some money do 

713
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,300
something make a profit, pay 
back the money so you can 

714
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:58,400
basically like get capital for 
free without having to put up 

715
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,400
any collateral. 
And, you know, this was kind of 

716
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,100
the prime example. 
Now, of course, Cosmos doesn't 

717
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:07,900
work like that with IVC. 
I think at the same time you 

718
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:13,200
said that the Outpost can have 
this sort of like, you know, 

719
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,000
instant functionality. 
Right. 

720
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,400
But can you can you talk a 
little bit about Out, you know, 

721
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,300
how do the output, how does this
work? 

722
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,800
And you know, where does the 
asynchronous nature of like IBC 

723
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,900
and, you know, interoperability 
still come in? 

724
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:34,300
And, you know, do do any kind of
like issues arise from this kind

725
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:39,200
of design? 
Yeah, it's a good it's a good 

726
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,200
point. 
So I think if you look at the 

727
00:39:43,207 --> 00:39:46,300
state on different smart 
contract, chains like Solana 

728
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,600
theorem and start like, 
generalized more contract 

729
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,500
chains. 
You actually see that 

730
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,700
composability is, is sort of 
like a meme, right? 

731
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:56,700
That like their most of smart 
contracts, that doesn't actually

732
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:00,300
touch each other, and most 
things don't need to touch each 

733
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,600
other. 
So I think that that is bullish 

734
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,900
for the for the cosmos thesis. 
That's I think Defy is like, 

735
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,700
almost all the composability 
happens on defy and I think 

736
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:14,600
that's one of the, the use 
cases, where you actually do 

737
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,500
need that synchronicity, and 
that, and that composability. 

738
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:24,000
And so for us, or for me, rather
speak for myself, the way I see 

739
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:30,200
the cosmos thesis play out is 
like IBC is is definitely like a

740
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,900
big part of that. 
But another big part of that is 

741
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:35,000
just having control of your own 
blog space and being able to 

742
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,400
customize your layer one to sue.
Shoot your own use case, right? 

743
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,900
Which is if I'm launching on a 
generalized, more contraction, 

744
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,000
but actually, I don't have any 
benefit from the composability 

745
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,800
there because I'm, like a 
Steppin or some kind of other 

746
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,400
application that doesn't like, 
like most applications that have

747
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,400
to use, Etc that don't really 
leverage composability. 

748
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:58,000
Then, why not launch my own 
chain, where, I'm not competing 

749
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,900
with anyone else or block space.
And I can customize consensus 

750
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:05,200
and like different parts of the 
of the architecture to actually 

751
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,700
suit. 
My use case And said, that's the

752
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:11,000
way I see. 
I see that happening and then in

753
00:41:11,008 --> 00:41:15,300
terms of D Phi, I do think and I
could be wrong about this 

754
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:18,500
obviously, but I do think most 
effectivity will happen 

755
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:23,000
synchronously in a single like 
environment in a single chain 

756
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,900
especially like Advanced defy 
use cases. 

757
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:30,300
Which for me like that is sort 
of one of the biggest killer 

758
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:34,400
apps of crypto is like 
speculating speculation and I 

759
00:41:34,408 --> 00:41:39,100
think that like needs Has to 
happen, like, for that to be, to

760
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:43,100
be like a enabled in a way 
that's competitive with a 

761
00:41:43,107 --> 00:41:45,600
centralized exchange that needs 
to happen in a synchronous 

762
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,400
environment. 
So, the way I kind of see it 

763
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,900
developing is, you'll have like 
many different app chains, 

764
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,100
specialized for their own use 
cases. 

765
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,600
And then you'll have a few D5 
focused options, which are kind 

766
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,100
of like the city centres and 
assets will be bridged to those 

767
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:03,900
chains. 
Trust this Lee using IBC and the

768
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,500
financial speculation stuff will
happen there. 

769
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:10,500
Whereas like the real activity 
will happen in the in those 

770
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:12,200
options. 
And if you think about it, it's 

771
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,400
kind of similar to the real 
world, right? 

772
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,900
Where you have, like, if you're 
building a factory, you don't 

773
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:19,000
build it in the end actually 
producing stuff. 

774
00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:20,200
You don't do it in the city 
center. 

775
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,900
You go, you go to a suburb 
somewhere or to the outskirts 

776
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,600
where real estate is cheaper. 
You're not competing with, with 

777
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,200
like Banks and, and like stores 
for real estate. 

778
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:32,300
And then when we need to raise 
money or whatever, you go into 

779
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,400
the city center, right? 
And so I think that's, that's 

780
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,700
kind of how I see it happening. 
With Cosmos where you have 

781
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,500
osmosis injective Neutron say 
kind of competing to be like 

782
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,700
these defy, hubs you City 
centers and then you have a 

783
00:42:46,707 --> 00:42:51,200
bunch of different like app 
chains that are specialized in 

784
00:42:51,207 --> 00:42:53,500
their own use cases. 
You know, there's already 

785
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:56,100
obviously like hundreds of them 
but there's going to be more and

786
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:58,900
more. 
And those are sit on sit in the 

787
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:02,700
suburbs, basically, and connects
to these defy chains via ABC, so

788
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:06,500
I don't see defy apps themselves
being built levees. 

789
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,800
IBC just because of how slow it 
is, although there will be use 

790
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,600
cases for it, right? 
You see all those Moses, they 

791
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,200
have their, their swap, their 
like cross chains. 

792
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,400
What functionality that they 
call it an outpost, but it's 

793
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,400
very different from from how, 
like, Mars are asked to report 

794
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,100
seeing how post where with us 
most is, it's like if I'm on 

795
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:30,600
Juno I can swap through osmosis 
and all that happens is like I 

796
00:43:30,607 --> 00:43:33,000
said, I want to swap Adam for 
USD. 

797
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,100
See, the atom is sent to as 
Moses my IBC. 

798
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,100
It's Swapped to you a sec and 
then the u.s. 

799
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:40,800
DC is sent back to Juneau, 
right? 

800
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,300
Whereas with with like Mars 
astronaut concept of an outpost,

801
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:47,400
the swap would actually have to 
have the liquidity would sit on 

802
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,000
Juno and the swap would happen 
there so that it can happen 

803
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,300
fast. 
And then you can do leverage on 

804
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,100
top of it and use it as part of 
collateral in a credit account 

805
00:43:54,100 --> 00:44:00,700
in this kind of thing. 
Mars is also like the March out.

806
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:04,200
For example, is also one of 
those app chains, but it 

807
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,800
connects the those, you know, 
kind of marketplaces City 

808
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,900
centers, where you think a lot 
of the, you know, the kind of 

809
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:14,700
financial activity is going to 
happen. 

810
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,100
Yeah, exactly. 
I think Mars would want to be 

811
00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:21,200
present anywhere like that, as 
an outpost would want to be 

812
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,600
present anywhere that it thinks 
might have a chance of becoming 

813
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,500
a financial center. 
And then that will have and thus

814
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:31,600
will have demand for leverage 
and then the Hub. 

815
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Yeah. 
It's like a, it's like a suburb 

816
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,100
where just governance and so can
you count happens and managers 

817
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,900
all the outposts. 
Yeah, so one thing I find 

818
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,800
interesting here because I like,
you know, you spoken with Sonny 

819
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,300
and when you're Sunny with 
describe, what's the vision for 

820
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:50,100
as Moses, he would actually be 
like, hey look he's he's also 

821
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:52,900
this should be kind of like a 
decentralized finance, you know,

822
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,000
and all of the the 
functionalities that binds our 

823
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,500
scenery. 
Should be there like, you know, 

824
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:01,900
launch pad, you know, trading 
Market, in a way described, 

825
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:06,300
pretty, similar to how you 
describe Mars, right? 

826
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:13,300
But then obviously, You know, 
it's in a way of Moses is sort 

827
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:18,100
of like covering this spot 
exchange functionality at the 

828
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:21,800
moment and focusing on that. 
And you guys take like very 

829
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,900
different approach in terms of 
like how to address this. 

830
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:28,000
So I think there's a very 
interesting in how you do kind 

831
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,100
of have like a similar long-term
Vision but like completely 

832
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:33,800
different architectures and at 
the same time kind of also like 

833
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,300
working together. 
So yeah, it's very fascinating. 

834
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:41,700
See that Yeah, it's a great 
question. 

835
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,700
I think we have pretty much the 
same exact Vision as, as Sonny 

836
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,000
of the sort of decentralized by 
an answer, decentralized of t x,

837
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,200
which is also why it made a lot 
of sense to build their. 

838
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:02,200
And yeah, the way I see it is 
osmosis is looking to become the

839
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,700
D5 focused chain. 
And so initially, it was an M&M 

840
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:08,200
chain and it was focused on on 
spot. 

841
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:12,100
But I actually think Osmos is 
vision is bigger and the goal is

842
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:16,400
to become like a D5 Focus chain 
and to then have a bunch of 

843
00:46:16,408 --> 00:46:19,400
different Primitives. 
Launched on there to fulfill 

844
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,800
that like Finance like 
functionality. 

845
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,200
And so I think like, osmosis is 
now working on concentrated 

846
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,800
liquidity which also moves it 
more away from the amm right? 

847
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:34,300
Because I think concentrated 
liquidity is like univ III 

848
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,200
style. 
Concentrated liquidity is not 

849
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,500
really an AM anymore, right? 
It's more like a It requires 

850
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,900
like Advanced users to be able 
to use that properly. 

851
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,900
And so I think there will be 
other protocols that are merged 

852
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:49,000
the provide the mm like 
functionality that do the the 

853
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,600
passive kind of liquidity 
provision and then Mars will 

854
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,500
provide like the credit phone 
functionality, the like wraps 

855
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:57,000
around. 
All the different use cases. 

856
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,100
There's protocols launching with
levana and a bunch of bunch of 

857
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:05,000
others. 
So I mean, I think we have the 

858
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,800
same vision and our view is that
like there's so much to build to

859
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,600
make the vision come true. 
That the best thing to do is to 

860
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,200
partner with like really smart 
builders that they can build. 

861
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,400
The can focus on building 
different parts of it rather 

862
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,200
than try and build build 
everything yourself. 

863
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,700
And I think like the opposite 
approach is something like dydx,

864
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,700
right where it's going to be 
their own up Jane. 

865
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,300
They're also focused on the 
decentralized finance Vision 

866
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:32,200
specifically on like Leverage 
trading and preps but they're 

867
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,700
actually trying to build out the
whole stack themselves and 

868
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:37,500
they're an awesome team where 
investors so definitely have 

869
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:39,900
have a lot of Respect for them, 
but it's just like a different 

870
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:43,400
approach, right? 
And it'll be interesting to see 

871
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,800
which one wins out in the end. 
Yeah, makes sense. 

872
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:53,200
Maybe I guess the sort of wrap 
up the talk about Mars. 

873
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,400
Can you sort of you mentioned 
quickly like Mars V2? 

874
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,800
Can you like sort of talk a 
little bit about the roadmap for

875
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,600
Mars? 
Where is it at right now? 

876
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,900
Like you know what's coming 
next? 

877
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:10,100
Yeah, I think the next big 
launch from Mars is Mars V 2, 

878
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:13,600
which will be the credit 
manager, which enables the the 

879
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,700
credit account functionality, 
and really like the, the most 

880
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:19,900
interesting in my view, part of 
Mars, which is that, that, like 

881
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,300
sub account for defy 
functionality. 

882
00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:25,700
And yeah, I believe like Mars is
also looking at launching 

883
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:29,100
different outposts, but I think 
the most significant sort of, 

884
00:48:29,107 --> 00:48:32,500
for me is the is that credit 
account, Mars you to lunch? 

885
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:36,500
Maybe one more thing that does. 
The other side is, the is the 

886
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:41,300
perp side, which I think Mars 
will either end up partnering 

887
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:46,600
with with with someone to do to 
do perps and kind of looking at 

888
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,600
a few different teams that 
they're looking to do that or 

889
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,100
sort of like building them like 
or having some of the 

890
00:48:54,100 --> 00:48:58,500
contributors build that do that 
themselves because I think 

891
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:01,400
we're, we've been, we're really 
interested in, in some of the 

892
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,900
kind of modern part design. 
It's like the article based 

893
00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:08,500
perps because I think especially
designs like gains and we 

894
00:49:08,508 --> 00:49:11,600
actually put it in our list of 
lists of ideas for the 

895
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,200
accelerator are super 
interesting because you can get 

896
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,700
centralized exchange like 
execution, right? 

897
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:20,100
Because you're importing the 
price from a centralized 

898
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:24,400
exchange, without actually 
needing the liquidity right 

899
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,200
without actually needing like to
bootstrap. 

900
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,700
Like a really deep order book or
a really deep mmm, or something 

901
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:32,500
like that. 
And with something like games, 

902
00:49:32,500 --> 00:49:34,000
you actually only need U.s. 
DC. 

903
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,300
So I think it design like that 
would be super interesting for 

904
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:41,100
Cosmos because, you know, Cosmos
has made of USD, see, unlike 

905
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:45,100
something like GMX, you don't 
need like, Ethan, link, and the 

906
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:49,800
native assets, and unlike 
something like dydx or or or 

907
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,000
perp like an M&M protocol or 
inaudible protocol. 

908
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,100
You don't need that deep 
liquidity and market makers and 

909
00:49:55,107 --> 00:49:58,100
stuff like that. 
So I think having a protocol 

910
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:01,100
like that and then integrating 
with the credit account, such 

911
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:04,400
that you could use your your the
Quality pool, shares, you're 

912
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,000
staking whatever else. 
You you might have in your 

913
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,600
credit account, as collateral to
then trade perps. 

914
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,100
That's like really the like an 
awesome user experience and I 

915
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:20,100
think the vision that that Mars 
is looking to build towards So 

916
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:24,600
you talked in the beginning a 
little bit, you know, Mars and 

917
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,100
asked report and I was somewhat 
independent, and you can go back

918
00:50:29,107 --> 00:50:34,700
to the roots of incubating and 
you guys also has made an 

919
00:50:34,707 --> 00:50:37,500
announcement the other day about
accelerator. 

920
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:39,900
Yeah. 
Tell us a little bit about that.

921
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:42,400
Like, what? 
See how does it work? 

922
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:45,900
And yeah. 
Well his the announcement in 

923
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:51,400
about Yeah, yeah. 
This is actually the initial 

924
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,400
Vision when we started building.
As I said was that we wanted to 

925
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,800
basically attract because we've 
always liked the reason that we 

926
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,300
started building was we had this
we had a lot of views about how 

927
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:07,100
things should be built. 
We had like a long list of ideas

928
00:51:07,100 --> 00:51:10,000
that we do. 
We wanted to build and we didn't

929
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,200
have like the end and we didn't 
see people doing that. 

930
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,800
So we wanted to kind of like 
pull up our sleeves and start 

931
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,400
start helping To make that 
happen ourselves and the idea of

932
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,200
Mars and last report was that 
they would be the initial 

933
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,600
projects, where we take a more 
active role. 

934
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,500
And then that acts as like the 
proof that the of what we can 

935
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:30,100
do. 
And the value we can add and 

936
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:32,900
then we can, we could like, 
scale it out and do more of a y,

937
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:35,200
combinator style thing. 
Although, we were never going to

938
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,100
be like, more of a y combinator 
style thing, in the sense that 

939
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:41,600
we work with external teams to 
help them build out their 

940
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,300
Visions, right? 
I guess the difference between 

941
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,000
what we want to do and what, It 
does is rather than y combinator

942
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,900
is is obviously like more of a 
spray-and-pray approach. 

943
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:55,200
They do have their request for 
start-up list but they accept 

944
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,700
kind of any kind of idea and any
kind of space. 

945
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,600
And then they have this this 
this program for us. 

946
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,600
We wanted to go out there with 
the list of ideas that we think 

947
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,500
matter. 
Like we always wanted to say we 

948
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:09,600
think about the space a lot and 
so we have like a list of things

949
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,300
that we think should exist and 
then find like really good 

950
00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:15,200
Founders and teams to come and 
help build out those ideas. 

951
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,100
And for a lot of those ideas, we
already have Designs and stuff 

952
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,000
like that. 
And so yeah, that that was kind 

953
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,400
of the how we saw the 
accelerator and, and the, the, 

954
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,300
the sort of the reason we want 
to do it is just that since, 

955
00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:31,500
like, we've been in crypto, six 
years, and we've helped like, 

956
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,400
we've been involved in investing
Consulting and building like 

957
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,700
multibillion-dollar, super 
successful protocols, we've seen

958
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,000
all the different we've seen. 
The first of all, how hard it is

959
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,300
to build a crypto project, 
right? 

960
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:47,500
There's like a bunch of things 
that make crypto way harder than

961
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:50,100
The normal startup, there's like
the legal side, it's super 

962
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:52,200
challenging and that everyone 
spends a lot of money and time 

963
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,600
on there's like mechanism, 
design, and community, and how 

964
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,000
to make these things actually 
decentralized, which people 

965
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,400
spend a lot of time Lon there's 
hiring which is hard because 

966
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,100
it's like, recruiters don't 
really work. 

967
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,700
And so we wanted to just kind of
take all the lessons that we've 

968
00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:09,500
learned doing this and really 
transmit them like a new 

969
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:12,200
generation of startups and help 
build the next kind of 

970
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,300
generation of really important 
protocols. 

971
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,400
So yeah, we thought really hard.
We spoke to practice and we 

972
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,400
Worked with and also, to start 
really hard about what would we 

973
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,600
have wanted to, to have a 
support? 

974
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,400
And what we wanted to know when 
we when we started off in this 

975
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,300
journey and that's kind of how 
we designed the accelerator. 

976
00:53:28,300 --> 00:53:32,600
So the idea is that we're going 
to pick a few teams and like 

977
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,500
that the hackathon which we can 
talk about is a way that we get 

978
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:38,900
to know more teams and get more 
date on teams to potentially 

979
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:41,500
work with. 
And then with those teams we're 

980
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:45,200
going to work with them, like, 
very intensively for kind of 

981
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,000
three to six months, although 
we're obviously work with them 

982
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,100
forever. 
And the go, there is just to get

983
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:52,600
them, get them set up, get their
legal structure set up, get the 

984
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,500
protocol design done, help them,
hire help them set up, good, 

985
00:53:56,500 --> 00:54:00,200
operational practices, upset, 
everything like that. 

986
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:03,000
And then like get them to their 
first successful, fundraising 

987
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,700
round, help them, help them 
raise that. 

988
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,900
And then obviously, we'll keep 
working for with them from then 

989
00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:09,300
on. 
But that's really the goal to 

990
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:13,200
take like five or more. 
But for this first cohort, we're

991
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,300
focusing on five like 
early-stage projects and really 

992
00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:18,900
like share everything. 
I've learned about building in 

993
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:21,200
the space with them and like, 
help them get to that first 

994
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,300
Milestone of successful 
fundraise. 

995
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:28,300
And can you talk a little bit 
about? 

996
00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:32,200
I guess what sort of ideas are 
there on your list and maybe 

997
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,300
also I guess ecosystems you're 
looking at is this like specific

998
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:39,700
to you know, build on Cosmos SDK
or are you like more broadly 

999
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:43,300
like whatever substrate chain 
you using? 

1000
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:48,500
We're yeah. 
So for the first first cohort 

1001
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:52,300
we're going to focus purely on 
Cosmos, we think it's easier for

1002
00:54:52,300 --> 00:54:55,300
us to add value. 
If we focus on one ecosystem, 

1003
00:54:55,300 --> 00:54:58,900
that we have deep knowledge of 
and we're excited about and also

1004
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:01,900
like we just have more of a 
network there and stuff like 

1005
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:05,400
that, but we're for the second 
core and like, third and stuff. 

1006
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:08,200
We're definitely going to kind 
of consider it again and see, 

1007
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,500
whether it makes sense to stay 
on Cosmos or go to an equal to 

1008
00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:14,500
or even something more kind of 
speculative like a, no, Or 

1009
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:17,400
something like that. 
What kind of think through 

1010
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,500
everything from from first 
principles there? 

1011
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,500
The approach we kind of take to 
this is just to think about, 

1012
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,500
from first principles, like five
years from now, if crypto is to 

1013
00:55:27,500 --> 00:55:30,500
succeed more broadly and if 
specifically Cosmos is to 

1014
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:36,700
succeed, massively like what 
things need to exist for that to

1015
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:39,700
happen. 
And then how can we have the 

1016
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:43,800
hackathon in the accelerator, be
places where those ideas, get 

1017
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,100
get built. 
That kind of thing. 

1018
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,200
And so we think about it in 
every sector, as kind of, as I 

1019
00:55:49,207 --> 00:55:54,000
was saying, sort of like, defy 
metaverse in gaming and ftes 

1020
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,100
and, and also like identity and 
governance and think about each 

1021
00:55:58,100 --> 00:56:00,700
of those sectors, one needs to 
exist, and what doesn't exist 

1022
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:04,500
now and then trying to, like, 
spec out some solutions for that

1023
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:07,700
to get teams thinking about how 
those, how those could be built.

1024
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,500
Yeah. 
Because I think like, if they're

1025
00:56:11,500 --> 00:56:14,300
am, is the clear leader right 
now in terms? 

1026
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,400
Of like traction Dev activity 
liquidity, all of that, but it's

1027
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,400
still pretty small in the scope 
of things. 

1028
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,000
Right? 
And so I think every Co system 

1029
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,700
is sort of one or two killer 
apps away from from kind of 

1030
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,300
unseating if they're a man in my
mind. 

1031
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:34,200
And so I think part of it is 
there's some things that are 

1032
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,200
clearly successful in the 
theorem that the other 

1033
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,400
ecosystems need to have. 
But there's a lot of things that

1034
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,100
haven't been built yet at all 
where I think ecosystems can 

1035
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:44,700
differentiate. 
And I are you going to be 

1036
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:47,600
spending most of your time on 
the accelerator on more 

1037
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,300
assertive, like split your time.
And where is your personal 

1038
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:56,300
Focus? 
Yeah, good question. 

1039
00:56:56,300 --> 00:57:01,200
So I think for for for me, yeah,
probably split time amongst like

1040
00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:03,800
Mars and asked report is still 
really important to lapse there.

1041
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,600
Like the first, they're like our
babies and also, I think they 

1042
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,800
need to succeed for for the 
accelerated to succeed, like 

1043
00:57:11,500 --> 00:57:14,100
their products that were more 
deeply involved in. 

1044
00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:16,600
So really important for us that 
they succeed. 

1045
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,600
But they have like independent 
teams that are super smart that 

1046
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,500
are there thinking about this 
stuff all the time. 

1047
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:26,700
So I think we Take more of like 
an advisory capacity than air 

1048
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:33,200
and so I'm mainly focused on. 
I think my main focus is going 

1049
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,700
to be the accelerator moving 
forward and really like building

1050
00:57:36,700 --> 00:57:39,400
up a new and also because the 
accelerator especially this 

1051
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,900
first cohort, well actually if 
it's successful be really 

1052
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:46,100
important for for Mars and asked
report success to write. 

1053
00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:48,800
Because it's going to attract a 
lot of really important projects

1054
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,300
to to Cosmos. 
Hopefully, and also a lot of 

1055
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:55,700
projects that actually Can be 
potential Integrations for Mars 

1056
00:57:55,700 --> 00:58:00,800
and ask report to. 
Yeah, thanks so much for coming 

1057
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,000
on Tuesday. 
I think we covered a lot about 

1058
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,900
like, yeah, Mars, the Delphi 
story and the accelerator I 

1059
00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:10,900
think are really excited for 
what for this to exist in the, 

1060
00:58:10,900 --> 00:58:13,300
in the cosmos ecosystem. 
And yeah, thanks so much for 

1061
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:15,600
coming onto epicenter, to talk 
to us. 

1062
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,000
And yeah. 
See you see you around in 

1063
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,500
Lisbon? 
Yeah, I really appreciate you 

1064
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:23,900
guys having me and thanks for 
all the smart questions. 

1065
00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:26,000
Hope it was. 
Hope it was useful for people. 

1066
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:32,300
Absolutely, thanks so much as a 
Thank you for joining us on this

1067
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,700
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1068
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:36,700
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You can find And subscribe to 

1069
00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:40,500
the show on iTunes Spotify, 
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1070
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:42,900
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1071
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:45,700
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1072
00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:49,400
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1073
00:58:49,500 --> 00:58:52,200
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1074
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,700
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1075
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:56,800
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1076
00:58:57,500 --> 00:58:59,900
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1077
00:58:59,900 --> 00:59:02,700
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1078
00:59:02,707 --> 00:59:04,800
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1079
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,200
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1080
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:09,600
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