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Hello and welcome to episode of 
the show which talks about the 

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Technologies projects and people
driving decentralization and the

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blockchain revolution. 
I'm Brian train. 

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And I'm here today with Felix 
loge, who's joining me today as 

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a guest host. 
So we're going to speak about 

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Lots of different topics today, 
maybe we've happy days. 

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So Felix, I've been working for 
years for many years now. 

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Over four years at that 
correspond. 

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So you joined us about four 
years ago, as a research 

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analyst. 
And now he's the chief 

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commercial officer. 
Of course, one is super 

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knowledgeable about lots of 
crypto stuff, including staking 

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industry and other things. 
And today, we're going to have, 

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you know, a bit of a discussion.
Just what we talked about. 

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We sort of try to answer the 
question of like, you know, 

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what's interesting. 
Thing in crypto right now and 

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you know, we have a bunch of 
topics that we want to cover 

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things around, you know, 
decentralization proof of stake,

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interoperability crypto markets.
Phoenix is going to tell us the 

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crypto prices at the end of the 
year so you can make your trades

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based on that. 
But before we, before we go into

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that belief about our sponsors, 
first of all, well, very fitting

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course one. 
So, you know, if your crypto 

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assets are sitting around idly 
you're losing out so you can 

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start earning rewards, 
contribute to network security 

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by staking. 
Of course one and we are is 

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securing billions of dollars and
over 25 different networks, 

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including Solana calls and 
aetherium. 

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Course one also works with many 
institutions to run, you know, 

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white label nodes providing, you
know, High availability, very 

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secure and compliant service, 
so, You can directly participate

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in decentralized networks. 
So you can go over to your 

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course. 
What course that one and start 

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you speaking Journey. 
Also hiring people. 

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So if you're interested in 
starting a career in the world 

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of crypto and staking, make sure
to check out their own positions

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there and then para swap. 
So pairs up is a multi-chain 

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decks aggregator. 
That means two pairs swap. 

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You can easily access liquidity 
or various different 

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decentralizing changes. 
They they automatically find you

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the cheapest liquidity so you 
can trade knowing that you get 

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it, the best price. 
It's also a gas friendly and 

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have to keep your transaction 
cost low. 

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They have expanded to various 
different networks, including a 

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lines polygons PSE Phantom. 
And you can also use parasol 

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from directly within the Ledger 
Life Application, and they've 

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become a doll. 
So, if you have PSP token, or 

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you want to get some PSB token, 
you can participate, tell them 

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what to do. 
So yeah, and they have a gas V 

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fund program even better. 
So go to Paris, opted, IO /. 

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Epps went to check it out. 
And so with that let's yeah, 

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let's get into our, let's get 
into our episode. 

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First of all, how are you doing?
And welcome. 

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Hey Brian, so great to be here, 
and be on the kind of gas side 

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of a podcast for a change. 
I guess you already introduced 

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me. 
So, not much to add and looking 

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forward to the discussion today 
and talking to you outside of 

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work about crypto. 
My favorite hobby. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Well, I mean, I gave brief I 

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gave some intro, but maybe maybe
it would be nice. 

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If you can sort of give you your
own life story. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Totally told me. 
No. 

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Yeah, so I started out basically
getting interested in crypto and

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I was studying. 
I studied Finance in Germany and

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I just realized more or less 
that I didn't want to join a 

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bank or become one of the big 
four companies. 

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And I learned about crypto 
through, kind of the internet, 

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just being active, internet 
lurker. 

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And I learned about auger 
initially kind of trying to 

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write my myself Master thesis 
about Prediction markets on and 

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auger, but then obviously auger 
wasn't like ready at that time. 

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So I wrote about that kind of 
another Block Chain topic, 

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ultimately kind of automated 
decision to work in the crypto 

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industry. 
That could leave found the 

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chorus 1, add on AngelList. 
Now we have positions again on 

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AngelList. 
If you want to check it out, but

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yeah. 
Found her at their, it was like 

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super fitting to my background. 
One of the kind of rare at that 

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time to have a role that wasn't 
like super developer Focus. 

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And yeah, just was super 
interested proof of stake. 

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And now and started as a 
research analyst as Brian said, 

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been kind of trying to make 
staking. 

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Yeah, like understandable for 
people initially wrote a lot of 

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content steak economy 
newsletter. 

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It may be some people read that 
and kind of did work on more and

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more things than course. 
One ultimately also like this is

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development and just kind of 
things on the Business 

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Commercial side now for over 
four years as Brian said and 

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yeah, that's basically. 
So I'm here today. 

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They've been looking at a lot of
different networks. 

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A lot of things that have 
happened in crypto through the 

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bear market and now the start of
the bull market or wherever we 

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are right now. 
So yeah, I guess that's, that's 

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background. 
Cool. 

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Well, yeah, proof of stake. 
Let's talk about proof is take. 

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I mean, I guess we've thrown 
about to stake many times. 

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Mostly from the perspective of 
speaking with proof of State 

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networks. 
I think that has been probably 

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the most, you know, the dominant
way that we have a type 

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center-right have sort of 
address the topic. 

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I guess there's also been I mean
we didn't episode about Li do 

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once, right? 
So we've covered like liquid, 

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staking a little bit. 
Not too much. 

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I guess bison Trails. 
We had a one point on as well. 

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So maybe it's a bunch of 
different but you know proves 

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takes basically gone from A 
concept. 

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I mean, I remember we had 
batalla con, you know, 2015 or 

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something, talking about how it 
gave me some space, if we stay 

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quiet. 
So, like the notion proof 

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saying, it's been around for a 
long time, but now it's become 

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something different right way. 
It's actually like an industry. 

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So what's going on today in your
view? 

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What are the most important sort
of Evolutions in this taking 

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landscape? 
Yeah, I think one thing that has

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been a topic since I started in 
blockchain over crypto and 

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probably even longer was this 
idea that the institutions are 

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coming. 
I guess they are still coming 

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slowly, but surely and I think 
it's it's also reflected in the 

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staking industry and the 
landscape where essentially. 

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Yeah, the the industry has 
matured a lot over the last 

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three years from Um, basically, 
I guess game of sakes where most

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of the validator operator 
started out or tasers initially,

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right? 
Where there was like, basically 

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some people that were interested
in this in this technology and 

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started to run these. 
Validator someone even really 

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knew what they're doing. 
And in the meantime, like a lot 

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of best practices developed, and
just prove sake, networks grew a

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lot first of all, in number, but
also, in terms of market cap, 

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and kind of Money to be made 
from staking rewards and 

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commissions for the node 
operators. 

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And I guess in general, the 
concept then became widely 

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understood in the kind of 
broader market and because of 

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its nature of like relatively 
easy to understand and 

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relatively risk-free yield in 
the proofs. 

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I guess. 
It's where that's that's I guess

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an interesting field for 
institutional customers, and 

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they Have entered this field a 
lot. 

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So I guess to say what that 
means is in the end that these 

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customers have like different 
requirements in the end. 

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Then maybe thus takers that 
started out in 2018-19 to stake 

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where they would. 
Yeah, basically just delegate 

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from their Ledger or through 
metal mask or whatever. 

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They wanted of their choices. 
And now there is a whole like 

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other process involved due 
diligence. 

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And compliance for these players
to. 

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Yeah, and the note operators 
that want to work with these 

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because clients that are on the 
institution side. 

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They need to adhere to their 
kind of or to these rules in a 

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way. 
I mean, I guess we can get into 

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that a bit, right? 
I'm sure you also have some 

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thoughts on that. 
Yeah, I mean it is interesting, 

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right because when I when I 
became interested in both in 

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cryptos, 2013 and what sort of 
this Bitcoin is Bitcoin, bubble 

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started one of the first ones 
and even then one of the main 

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stories that there was is over, 
the institutions are like coming

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and it's like, even that they're
going to like, and of course, 

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there were some examples then, 
right? 

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Yeah. 
Like, Overstock starting to 

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accept, you know, Bitcoin is 
payments and Course it in the 

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end. 
Well, now we hear many years 

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later, right? 
Nine years later, almost eight 

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and a half years later or 
something. 

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And yeah, it's still a slow, so 
slow process, but I think you 

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very much right that the, he's 
actually mini. 

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If you think about, you know, 
what do institution is do with 

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crypto. 
I guess, the first thing is sort

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of The easiest thing is like, 
okay Bitcoin. 

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All right, you can just hold 
Bitcoin. 

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I think that's that's kind of 
like the the first thing you can

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do. 
And of course hold that is also 

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something that we've seen 
happening, you know, for years 

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and, you know, maybe some 
corporations holding it on the 

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balance sheet custody, right? 
Being a huge topic. 

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And again, the custodian have 
generally been like, okay. 

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First of all, you know, let's 
live people to just hold Bitcoin

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or something. 
Maybe hold some others. 

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Maybe enable like trading a 
little bit. 

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But then if you go like beyond 
that, you know, staking is very 

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attractive. 
I think, because it's, yeah, 

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it's easy to understand why it's
low risk. 

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It is, you know, it feels like a
bone, right? 

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With some save interest rate. 
It's quite different from defy, 

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right? 
Also, defy move so quickly, 

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right? 
Then if I have something here 

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and then next month is gone and 
something over here and I think 

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that's like very informal. 
Regulatory perspective also 

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seems probably like more of a 
mess. 

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So I think staking is is 
probably or he's one of the ways

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that institutions kind of get 
into it. 

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But of course, it's still very 
slow. 

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The other thing. 
I think that stands out to me 

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the most sort of like one of the
themes, I think when it comes to

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staking is it's just the 
increased in complexity. 

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I mean, you mentioned this from 
different types of customers who

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are in compliance. 
This is like an interesting 

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topic. 
So we at course one, right? 

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We've been doing a lot of work 
on compliance and it is huge 

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amount of work. 
I to basically then, you know 

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measure up to some of these 
institutional standards and 

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comes with a lot of 
implications. 

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So that's those are some things.
But then there are other things 

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too that have brought like more 
complexity to develop to staking

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00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:05,100
in the valid rule, you know, one
is just the Diversity in 

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different roles, right? 
So we have the kind of normal 

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value, the role of you checking 
the validity of transactions, 

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creating the block, checking the
other box. 

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Proper propagating in P2P 
Network and kind of, you know, 

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creating those box, right? 
But then I know already 

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displaying all the rules like, 
you know, oracle's and in new 

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ones coming up, how how do you 
think this is? 

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What do you think? 
Either, that's going to be. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, it's very interesting 

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question. 
I guess we started, I would like

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originally, like a long time. 
I think there were a lot of 

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roles that people or protocol 
designers start off for crypto 

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economic protocols. 
A lot of them actually never 

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came about or maybe maybe didn't
like take office as planned. 

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Like, for example, the polkadot 
fisherman. 

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It was for a long time. 
A thing. 

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00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,500
I don't know if this is actually
even implemented or how these 

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work. 
But in general, right? 

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People get creative with the the
things that the note needs to do

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to make the network work and in 
the end, I guess, as more 

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applications also, like, if we 
think about the networks, as 

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this base layer applications run
on and then more value is just 

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on this chain, these roles 
become actually. 

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00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,100
Yeah, quite important. 
And there's more competition. 

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I guess around fulfilling 
whatever this role is designed 

230
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,700
to do. 
So, I guess in the validator 

231
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:38,700
sense. 
Normally you're just looking at 

232
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:41,000
your you're up time. 
Usually. 

233
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,500
And I mean, that's also not the 
easiest thing so it depends on 

234
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,000
the network, right. 
The Network's nowadays actually 

235
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,300
also increase in demand for 
Hardware. 

236
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:54,800
So for example on osmosis, 
right, you there there's a lot 

237
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,700
of computation happening at the 
epoch boundary that needs like 

238
00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:02,700
Servers or better servers and I 
guess there's more State needs 

239
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:06,200
to be saved. 
But then there's also another 

240
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,200
dimension where, for some of 
these roles. 

241
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,400
There's also like a certain 
optimization needed and I guess,

242
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,400
yeah, what were what we 
conceptually thinking? 

243
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,900
It's probably that this 
optimization obviously will, 

244
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:25,100
like some people will be better 
suited to, to kind of fulfill or

245
00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:26,800
optimize these these for these 
roles. 

246
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,700
And then they I will basically 
take on a lot of the market 

247
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:32,800
share of these roads. 
So like if it's like a 

248
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,500
competitive market, probably 
like only a few players will be 

249
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:41,200
suited to, to do that. 
Some of the examples that come 

250
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,500
to mind. 
Of course, maybe like, familiar 

251
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:47,200
for people in the defy space. 
Is liquidations. 

252
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:52,700
We're essentially. 
Yeah, there is some loan at risk

253
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,600
if the price moves. 
Now, the person that is the 

254
00:14:56,300 --> 00:15:01,700
fastest to I'm kind of get that 
transaction, the liquidation, 

255
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,100
transaction, and we'll make the 
money. 

256
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:07,000
So obviously, there are parties 
that probably better suited to 

257
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,800
do that. 
Then the average. 

258
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,600
Yeah. 
Told her that, that was a 

259
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,900
participate in this. 
So I guess that that complexity.

260
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:23,000
I mean, I mean, yeah, makes it 
kind of harder for smaller 

261
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,900
players. 
Maybe to compete in a way I 

262
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:25,400
guess. 
Brian. 

263
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:27,800
I don't know. 
What's your, yeah. 

264
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:31,500
And I think that's it. 
Also sort of brings up this 

265
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,300
other topic, right? 
That's become, you know, one of 

266
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:39,200
the most talked about in crypto.
It's also something that we've 

267
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,600
been bringing up, you know, 
guests various times. 

268
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,900
And you know, like people are 
thinking about it a lot. 

269
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:47,000
It's topic of Mev. 
And, you know, I think anyone we

270
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,500
have on the podcast. 
It's like you're building a 

271
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:52,700
Krypton Network thinks about 
this. 

272
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,400
And I mean, what is Mev, you I'd
be have also done some podcasts 

273
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,300
about it all, but any of these 
Circle around the, the ability 

274
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:05,200
of the block producer to, you 
know, decide on the order of 

275
00:16:05,208 --> 00:16:09,200
transactions, although, I guess 
the term is sort of used in 

276
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,300
different ways that sometimes 
also includes, you know, people 

277
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,000
who are not actually the block 
producer, right? 

278
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,000
So when you, you feel emotion, 
they would talk them as a 

279
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,700
Searchers, right? 
So the people who basically look

280
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,900
for some kind of opportunities 
to like reorganize the 

281
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,800
transaction to put in 
particular. 

282
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:33,500
Stir to make money and then, of 
course, if you think of these 

283
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:37,800
roles as well. 
Now, let's say there's some 

284
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:43,400
crypto economic mechanism and 
expect some transaction. 

285
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,800
And for somebody who like 
putting that transaction, they 

286
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,400
can earn some money. 
Then of course, if you are the 

287
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,300
block producer, then you can 
basically, you know, you have to

288
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:56,800
Monopoly, right? 
You can say it. 

289
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,700
Like you can say like I'm going 
to put my transaction first, 

290
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,000
right? 
And if there's that money to 

291
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,300
made, you can make that money, 
you know, examples of that are 

292
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:09,599
like, let's say liquidation 
right on maker. 

293
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,599
You can have some CDP or 
basically, somebody borrow 

294
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,200
money, you know, put up 
collateral the cloud or drops in

295
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,599
value and somebody can liquidate
it and earn something. 

296
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,099
And then, whoever does that 
first, right? 

297
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:28,200
Basically gets like free money 
and then of course, if The 

298
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,600
validators or the minor right at
the moment, but the validating 

299
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,600
frou-frou sake networks. 
It has the ability to do that 

300
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,600
but has the ability to do that 
does require like understanding,

301
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:47,000
you know, the contents of the 
block analyzing those things. 

302
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,700
May be analyzing the 
transactions that coming in, 

303
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:53,600
then, you know, executing that 
and some kind of real-time 

304
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,600
fashion Society, pretty complex 
and something. 

305
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,400
That who does that today? 
It's I think probably just in, 

306
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,300
like, small amount, it's being 
done. 

307
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:09,300
But if you think, I think of the
future of staking light is going

308
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,400
to become like a very big thing.
And of course you didn't have 

309
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,100
also the counter Trend that and 
I guess that's where I mean. 

310
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:18,800
He's very, you know, 
controversial stand people say, 

311
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,600
oh, but maybe that's bad for the
network. 

312
00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:26,400
Sometimes it can be good for the
Oracle bath but network, but at 

313
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,600
least it's something that they 
need. 

314
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,600
And also protocol designers 
application. 

315
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,600
Design is no try to deal with in
different ways. 

316
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,600
I mean, for example, right, 
we've had cows swap on here 

317
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,000
before, right? 
Or I think and their, their 

318
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,300
Twitter handle at least is Mev 
protection. 

319
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,600
I don't actually understand 
like, but so, you know, specific

320
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:53,700
decks developed around that. 
So, but I think that entire 

321
00:18:53,700 --> 00:19:01,600
thing is it's just a huge. 
Topic that's going to, you know,

322
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,600
be something that will give work
for many different parties for, 

323
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,500
you know, like many, many years 
and your the outcomes kind of, 

324
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:15,300
you know, it's very, very little
heads. 

325
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:22,100
Yeah, I guess like from from the
node operator perspective, in 

326
00:19:22,108 --> 00:19:24,500
terms of you. 
You're kind of forced to deal 

327
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,700
with this topic in a way because
yeah, most people realize that 

328
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,800
this is big because we saw it on
the theorem. 

329
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,700
We know there is definitely a 
market already in it, will 

330
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:36,500
probably grow. 
Of course. 

331
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,300
There's also people building 
tools to like, make it more 

332
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,300
accessible maybe two smaller. 
No debris. 

333
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:44,300
So I guess from the perspective 
of who is well-suited to do 

334
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,600
that. 
Maybe there is some scenario 

335
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,900
where You know what, operator 
can work with searches through 

336
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:53,000
some tool and still have the 
same opportunity as like a 

337
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,100
bigger operator, but still just 
in terms of like it's one of 

338
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,900
these things where that you have
to think about as an operator. 

339
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,300
So it's not just about you know,
keeping your server up and 

340
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:07,000
there's there's a lot of things 
that that go into being 

341
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:13,500
operating these nodes and at 
scale especially so I guess our 

342
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,600
one of the topics we want to 
discuss with Rhino me talked 

343
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,900
earlier what we Gus is kind of, 
this is idea of yeah, 

344
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:21,800
decentralization. 
What are the kind of forces that

345
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,000
help it? 
That has a temperate? 

346
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,200
And I guess Mev seem just one 
that probably is a centralizing 

347
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,000
for is in a way. 
I think. 

348
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,700
We also just came up with a few 
other things or I guess we could

349
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:40,000
discuss some other. 
Yeah things that maybe increase 

350
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,300
or decrease in Translation, but 
you what it's like things that 

351
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:44,500
you. 
So we actually mentioned 

352
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:49,200
compliance to mention Mev. 
Other things to come to mind. 

353
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:56,700
I mean, there's definitely 
various things that I think are 

354
00:20:56,700 --> 00:21:02,300
driving towards the increasing 
complexity of validation and 

355
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:06,600
then increase. 
And of course, that means that 

356
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:10,300
if you can invest more in it, 
you know, you can provide a 

357
00:21:10,308 --> 00:21:13,100
better product, and you can get 
more customers and you can 

358
00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:15,400
become bigger, right? 
So that you have those kind of 

359
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,800
Dynamics. 
I think, they're there. 

360
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,000
Of course. 
You also have other Dynamics. 

361
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,800
I mean, you know, one thing is 
just That, you know, when we 

362
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,500
started with course one, but we 
didn't like there was not really

363
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,200
like a template for how to do 
it. 

364
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,800
Right? 
So there was, it was a lot of 

365
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,100
work to figure out how to run a 
validator. 

366
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,600
But today there's lots of Open 
Source tools like lots of guides

367
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,100
right like so that to that, I 
think that barrier initial 

368
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:45,800
barrier to just, you know have a
value to run on the network has 

369
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,300
gone down, you know, a lot right
there mean. 

370
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,300
I think in Cosmos for example, 
it Like very easy to do it. 

371
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,300
You know, that's one thing. 
Yeah, I guess there's liquid 

372
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:01,400
staking to. 
Like, it's taking could be sort 

373
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,600
of like decentralizing and 
centralizing in different ways. 

374
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,000
Right? 
So you can have, let's say if 

375
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,100
you have something like light or
as an example, right? 

376
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:15,400
You can have on the one hand. 
It distributes the steak too 

377
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,800
many note operators. 
So that's kind of more 

378
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,000
decentralized, right? 
Then what? 

379
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,100
Would you have as a normal 
outcome, but then at the same 

380
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:28,700
time more control that shifted 
to, you know, like the 

381
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:32,400
governance of that governance 
token and so you can have sort 

382
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:39,800
of like some some degree of 
centralization again at there. 

383
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,600
And so that's that's also 
interesting. 

384
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:46,300
You know, that interplay. 
Yeah, I I found this always 

385
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:50,100
very, very interesting and I 
guess we saw the stay key 

386
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:54,400
mechanisms shift, a lot since 
kind of taking came around 

387
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,400
right? 
Like I guess early Cosmos and 

388
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,900
Tazo started with this model of 
Delegation. 

389
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,000
So you're actually able as a 
total order to stay even though 

390
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,800
you don't run the nodes which 
enabled, I call this these 

391
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,500
businesses that now run notes 
for others. 

392
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,800
And and then I guess here, I'm 
kind of made a shift from that. 

393
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:16,300
Where it's like, oh, you have to
hold the ether yourself to 

394
00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:20,200
validate, but then of course, 
someone came around and realize 

395
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,800
there's no opportunity to build 
like a delegation protocol as a 

396
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,500
smart contract, which is 
essentially Idol and and give 

397
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,500
that liquids taking Dimension to
it, which even makes it more 

398
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:31,300
attractive than the native 
staking. 

399
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:36,600
So I think, from my perspective,
what this is also like I guess 

400
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,700
if we're thinking about protocol
designers, designing their 

401
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:43,000
protocol to minimize, Mev. 
I think they should probably 

402
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,400
also think about Out designing 
the protocol to minimize like 

403
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:51,500
having other protocols take like
share from their core mechanism,

404
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,500
which in this case, I guess it's
taking where now it shifts to 

405
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,100
lie to as you said, right. 
The governance is now with 

406
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:58,900
lighter instead of the portal 
called 7. 

407
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:00,700
Maybe it would would make more 
sense. 

408
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,000
I mean, I don't know. 
Actually, if that's true, but 

409
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,100
that's kind of like what I was 
thinking that maybe if you have 

410
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:09,300
this kind of natively in the 
protocol that the steak is 

411
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:12,500
already liquid, then, I guess 
you're taking a little bit that 

412
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:16,000
opportunity away from On to make
like a drastically better 

413
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,500
staking model, then you also 
will actually curious to hear 

414
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,500
Brian. 
What do you think about that? 

415
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,000
You mean you mean because if you
have an outcome where you didn't

416
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,300
have like, let's sail, I do 
which controls a lot of the 

417
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:32,600
stake that then apply those in a
strong position to basically, 

418
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:37,600
you know, extract, Mev, and 
that's kind of your point. 

419
00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:41,000
Yeah. 
Yeah just that also like 

420
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,600
distribute the steak. 
How lighter one and maybe maybe 

421
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,300
it would have been. 
Yeah, like better that the the 

422
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:52,200
from the start we have like a 
protocol that is like liquid 

423
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,600
staking. 
I think it will go on one of 

424
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,400
them that now comes around 
slowly to it. 

425
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,300
I guess it's Cosmos where there 
will be these delegation. 

426
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:03,300
Voucher is design where now you 
can't organize your delegation 

427
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,300
on the on the Hub or you will be
able to and then That can be 

428
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:13,200
used in different composable 
ways. 

429
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,900
So that's kind of like natively 
built into the protocol instead 

430
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:22,100
of having a separate thing. 
And I think that's a pretty 

431
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:26,300
pretty good idea. 
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing 

432
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:32,200
that's like interesting sort of 
like on this point is this, you 

433
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,200
know, like you wasted so like 
I'm Cosmos, right? 

434
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000
That's anybody can like spin up 
a validator and you have to have

435
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,000
like whatever one atom or you 
know, one token and whatever the

436
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,200
the coin is and and then people 
can take with you and you don't 

437
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,400
have to have Capital right now. 
Tasers was already kind of 

438
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,100
different there, right? 
Because tasers required, the The

439
00:25:55,100 --> 00:26:02,100
validator, they call the baker 
to have 20% of the of what other

440
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,600
people steak with you in their 
own wallet, right? 

441
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:10,300
So now if I'm like, some random 
guy who wants to start like the 

442
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:13,700
tasers Baker. 
Well, that's kind of creates a 

443
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:17,400
big barrier because if I don't 
have to taste these myself, like

444
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,900
I have to go and like figure out
some way to get tazed. 

445
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,100
He's before people can actually 
stay with me. 

446
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:27,400
So like I guess the idea of 
tasos was that there would be 

447
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,600
some sort of, you know, skin in 
the game for them and maybe hire

448
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,800
security but I don't think that 
played out like that, right? 

449
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,500
So I thinking practically 
speaking, there's never been an 

450
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:41,700
issue. 
Let's say on the cosmos networks

451
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:47,000
that you know about it is don't 
have their own steak up because 

452
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,600
first of all, there's not really
any attacks they can do that 

453
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,800
will give them money and They 
reputation Sookie. 

454
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,700
So if they did anything, then 
people just like go elsewhere. 

455
00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:03,500
And so I think, but the but the 
effect is been right at then the

456
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:08,800
the violators or the baker's 
have to have a lot of extra 

457
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,500
work. 
May have to find Wheels create 

458
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:14,600
legal contracts. 
Actually. 

459
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,900
We have kind of dealt with that 
and and I think in the end, it 

460
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,900
has a crazy barrier to entry and
instead kind of like, the 

461
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,100
centralizing thing and And of 
course the theory. 

462
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:29,800
Mm, I mean, it here, I guess 
that's there was like, so one 

463
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,200
guy we were in touch with quite 
a bit in the beginning Cosmo. 

464
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,300
So I could see was running 
Cosmos validator at the gaming 

465
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:40,400
space and the launchers Ryan 
Adams. 

466
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,100
Who, of course, has become. 
It is done like fantastic work 

467
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:47,700
with bankers and graded like, 
you know, really great podcast 

468
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,500
and media thing around mostly 
theorem and defy. 

469
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,100
But you know, he was making this
tweet. 

470
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:59,400
They are like, oh, you know 
Cosmos staking is a cartel and 

471
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,900
too centralized. 
And yes, interesting compare 

472
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:05,600
that with like if urea, right? 
Because only theorem of course 

473
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,500
you gain have this thing, as you
said, right? 

474
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,500
Like I mean, yes, it's easier 
right? 

475
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,800
For me as somebody who has, 
let's say, 32, 'if and I want to

476
00:28:15,808 --> 00:28:19,100
run my own validator, right? 
Like I can do that, right? 

477
00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:23,000
Whereas in Cosmos, you know, the
least valid or may have like, 

478
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,600
let's say, 2 million or Nothing 
like that of Adam to take down 

479
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,600
the Christmas holiday. 
So, you know the barrier to get 

480
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,400
in there is higher but from that
perspective, but you have to 

481
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:41,100
have the capital right and And 
that's a huge as the huge 

482
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:46,000
centralizing effect. 
Yeah, I guess, on that, right? 

483
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,700
I mean, for one in Cosmos. 
Also. 

484
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,500
The nice thing is, there's many 
Cosmos chains, right? 

485
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:52,800
The ideas. 
We have many networks, and 

486
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,300
there's also like networks that 
have a lower barrier to entry 

487
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:58,000
where you can get started and 
start a validator and get 

488
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,200
familiar and make your 
reputation. 

489
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:04,000
So I guess that's one point and 
the other is also write as you 

490
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,200
said you need the capital. 
So what I think Happens. 

491
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,300
Is that sure there's probably 
more people that run like notes 

492
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:14,900
on their own with their 30 to 
eat if they have that much, 

493
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:17,400
which is also like already. 
I guess it's pretty substantial 

494
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:25,000
amount and and then but that's 
kind of like a very long tail of

495
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,800
node operators or like in terms 
of percent of General steak. 

496
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,600
I feel like that's a very small 
minor fraction. 

497
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,600
It's probably not even very 
clear how much it is, but I 

498
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,200
would assume it's less than 10% 
and we'll probably Never be 

499
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,600
progress at five Yuan. 
And so what is actually the 

500
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,400
impact of that is probably not 
that much and then on the other 

501
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,000
hand on the more extreme side as
I guess you have more 

502
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,900
centralization because it's so 
hard to build this delegation 

503
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:55,100
model on a theorem that really 
only lie do as like a because 

504
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:58,600
taking protocol can do it and 
maybe like centralized exchanges

505
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,100
can do it. 
So, there's really like, only 

506
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:05,200
like a few very big players that
than get a lot of steak and 

507
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,100
probably, in terms of Of kind of
how many people it takes or 

508
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,300
entities. 
It takes to reach that threshold

509
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:14,600
of something going wrong. 
Like, I guess that's what you 

510
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,500
should optimize for, in a way 
for the proof of stake Network, 

511
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:18,900
right? 
That it's hard to attack the 

512
00:30:18,908 --> 00:30:20,300
network. 
You may be Distributing the 

513
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:22,900
entities. 
I would almost say that probably

514
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:25,300
in terms of this Nakamoto 
coefficient or however you want 

515
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:28,100
to call it. 
Maybe the costume design is 

516
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:30,300
actually doing better than you 
theorem at least right now. 

517
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:34,200
And so, yeah, that's kind of my 
view on it. 

518
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:36,900
Yeah, I mean the thing that 
seems pretty clear. 

519
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:39,900
I think if you add up like 
whatever coinbase cracking and 

520
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,100
finance or something, then I 
think you are going to be above 

521
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:48,200
a third for sure on each cerium.
And and your cause. 

522
00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:52,100
And also I think one thing is I 
actually theorem hides a lot of 

523
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:54,200
it. 
Like you don't really have that 

524
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,600
much visibility what's going on.
Because, you know, of course, 

525
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,800
that's also one of the nice 
things about the cosmos model is

526
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,600
that there is this aspect of 
like I can look at the value. 

527
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:08,400
Layers and I can, you know, 
there's like the not the name 

528
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,800
and the website and you can like
steak with them. 

529
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,700
So there's this, you know, in a 
way it's like this advertising 

530
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:18,000
board where like people can show
up, people cannot do something. 

531
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,600
And, of course, it's not so easy
to get delegation, right? 

532
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,900
You have to stand out somehow 
but much much easier than to, 

533
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,600
you know, convince some, some 
institution, I guess. 

534
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:40,600
Still like, you know, basically,
you know, build some solution 

535
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,700
where you can, you can take a 
8th. 

536
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:46,900
Yeah, I think that the upside of
that is also like, now you have 

537
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:49,500
this, the validator has some 
kind of identity, right? 

538
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:51,700
There's a reputation as you said
attached to it. 

539
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,300
There is all that I think if you
get rid of that again now all 

540
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,500
the valadares and animals so 
really they don't care about 

541
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,300
anything. 
Maybe about about the Yeah, 

542
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,200
there's steak. 
And I guess that is also like 

543
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,200
maybe less secure, right? 
Because now with this reputation

544
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,300
of your thing is on the line, 
your brand, is there you 

545
00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:14,700
actually kind of increase the 
security I guess, because you 

546
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:16,900
have all that on the line. 
Whereas, if you're just like a 

547
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,800
string of numbers, like, let's 
say on Avalanche where right 

548
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,100
now, if you run a note really, 
you just see like a string and 

549
00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:24,300
you don't really know who that 
belongs to. 

550
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:29,200
So if they misbehave you 
wouldn't really know who was it 

551
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,300
and they could maybe like 
launching, you know it again and

552
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:34,300
get steak again. 
And That probably wouldn't 

553
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:37,800
happen customers like that. 
Right? 

554
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:43,000
Although, like, I guess the flip
side of that is that, you know, 

555
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,000
the if you look at like a cosmos
Network, like the entity is 

556
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,800
running that are basically 
identifiable, like you can be, 

557
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,000
you know, you can figure out at 
least for most of the okay. 

558
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,300
Where are they? 
Who are they, you know, where's 

559
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:04,100
that company? 
So I think in terms of You know,

560
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:08,600
pressure from government. 
So, you know, maybe some 

561
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,200
regulatory, Crackdown it may 
well be that the theory or model

562
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,000
might be more resilient. 
No, I would say it's still 

563
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,400
probably for a government size 
actor. 

564
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,900
Easy to identify it. 
No, it's Lydia. 

565
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,100
So, we talked to me about liquid
staking. 

566
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,400
Where do you think that's going?
Yeah, I think it's still, I 

567
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,900
mean, we've been feels like a 
long time but I guess even 

568
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:41,600
people that were really in the 
space is like only two years 

569
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,100
since people started like 
thinking about it and then 

570
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:47,400
probably like bit more than a 
year that something is life. 

571
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,500
And I guess most of it is like I
do, right? 

572
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,200
And lighter on. 
If you, I'm kind of being the 

573
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,000
poster child for a liquid 
staking and a lot of things 

574
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,100
designed around that, I think 
there's been a bunch of 

575
00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:01,100
innovation since then already, 
and I would, obviously expect 

576
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:03,500
there. 
To be a lot more Innovation 

577
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,300
coming since. 
I mean, I guess it was taken for

578
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:11,400
me is also just like a extension
of General staking design that 

579
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,900
kind of takes into account defy.
And yeah, right. 

580
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,199
Like we've seen a few things 
already, like some Innovation. 

581
00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:22,900
I guess we'll see more and we'll
hopefully I have competitive 

582
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:27,400
market and see different models 
play out and succeed and 

583
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,000
probably it will. 
Yeah, definitely be. 

584
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,600
I mean That's why I guess, of 
course, one. 

585
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,400
We're also very interested in 
because it's like, Also like the

586
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,699
destroyed, we have to kind of 
deal with it because it kind of 

587
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,100
changes the model. 
Like who is your customer now? 

588
00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:43,900
Now you have to stick with 
taking protocol, I guess as a 

589
00:34:43,908 --> 00:34:48,500
customer which two years ago 
didn't exist as your customer 

590
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:52,100
potentially. 
Yeah, and then these protocols 

591
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:54,300
can all have like different 
ways, how they steak and you 

592
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:58,700
could probably yeah as an 
operator you would like try to 

593
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:01,200
optimize to get in that set. 
I guess we talked about about 

594
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,600
light. 
Oh how it works there. 

595
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,800
Where it's more like a Ninh 
space decision. 

596
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,400
And essentially you need to like
prove that you have your of your

597
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,200
setup of kind of track records 
and send the application and 

598
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,300
it's a bit more like that the 
whole system and then there's 

599
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,100
like some algorithmic solutions 
right now. 

600
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:26,300
I guess like, primarily like 
some, some people that innovated

601
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:28,500
are essentially, what, okay, so 
originally this lot of 

602
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:31,600
foundation itself with the, 
their stake pool design, that 

603
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,800
kind of try to look at uptime 
and Different kind of objective 

604
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,200
measures to to decide where the 
stake is delegated, and then 

605
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,600
marinate and social. 
I think kind of build off that 

606
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,200
and built like liquid saying 
protocol that does a similar 

607
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,600
thing now, sure. 
There's like more designs to be 

608
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,900
explored there. 
And I mean, I'm just excited to 

609
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,300
see some of them one that comes 
to mind. 

610
00:35:57,300 --> 00:36:02,200
Of course, where we have 
explored is now being 

611
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,500
implemented by quickserver. 
Kind of Spin-off, of course, one

612
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,400
where they are building a system
where essentially, the holders 

613
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,300
of the of the liquid s open can 
kind of signal their preference 

614
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:20,300
when they initially meant the 
Sega talking to which validated 

615
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:22,800
the state should go to and 
through that basically the 

616
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,200
validator set is formed. 
I'm sure there's like a lot of 

617
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,000
other designs. 
One thing I could think of is 

618
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,300
also like maybe there could be 
something that just mirrors the 

619
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,200
existing valid. 
It said and distribution error. 

620
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:39,100
I mean yeah, Lord knows what's 
there? 

621
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,000
I guess. 
Yeah. 

622
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,300
What's your thoughts friend? 
How do you expect? 

623
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,400
It's a good question. 
Right? 

624
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:54,000
Because I think at the same time
it's a I think the pieces around

625
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,000
liquid staking think is also a 
little bit that, you know, you 

626
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,800
gonna have this liquid staking 
asset, that's being created. 

627
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,700
Let's say, steak beef. 
And you know the ambition of Li 

628
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:13,400
the and I think this is true 
for, you know, many proofs, take

629
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:14,800
many existing. 
Protocols. 

630
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Is that then This token actually
becomes kind of, you know, the 

631
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,000
token that is used right. 
So, you know, I hold safety for 

632
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,300
my role at not, if you know, 
maybe you have poodles on a 

633
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:31,900
M&M's that have, like, safety 
pairs. 

634
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:36,900
It's used as maybe some sort of 
Base token in defy applications.

635
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,000
And of course, as big benefit, 
right? 

636
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,300
Because then all those tokens 
wherever they are basically, you

637
00:37:42,308 --> 00:37:45,300
know, like accruing saving 
Rewards. 

638
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:50,900
Amen, I think the, I would say 
the thesis is a little bit that,

639
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:53,200
then you have this, you know, 
sort of ossification right. 

640
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,500
That becomes like the standard 
becomes like, super hard to 

641
00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:00,300
disrupt becomes, you know, like 
it also winner-takes-all 

642
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,500
Dynamic, potentially, at least 
can work out like that, but I 

643
00:38:06,508 --> 00:38:09,200
guess we'll see. 
But I think there is, there's 

644
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,400
always SLI a benefit to having, 
you know, a lot of liquidity 

645
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,000
crew around. 
A particularly good taking acid.

646
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,800
So it's interesting, sort of 
asked. 

647
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,700
You know, how how much evolution
is it going to be, or is it 

648
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:28,400
something that kind of, you 
know, become sort of solidified 

649
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:32,700
and, and it's then dislike layer
and then all the things are 

650
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:37,600
happening on top. 
I'm yeah, I'm so, I guess I have

651
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:43,600
a little bit question if the 
same EB change things, 

652
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,900
fundamentally Maybe Not right. 
Maybe, it's, maybe it's sort of 

653
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:53,200
like, let's say I hold steak 
beef and then on a somewhere 

654
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,900
else and maybe happens and maybe
changes what mistaken rewards 

655
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:01,300
are and what the valid is do, 
but doesn't really change, you 

656
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,200
know, that your C20 a hold. 
So maybe it doesn't 

657
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,500
fundamentally change the liquid 
staking model or like, but, but 

658
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:13,600
maybe I don't know. 
So, I think that's so kind of 

659
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,400
like an open question because I 
do Think I mean, he's gonna 

660
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,700
change a lot and so I'm 
wondering if that's going to 

661
00:39:19,707 --> 00:39:24,500
impact, you know, kind of bring 
new new models like you saying 

662
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:29,000
that maybe are able to 
out-compete and really existing 

663
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,800
ones. 
I think a, for example, I guess 

664
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,500
now some of these liquids taking
Solutions. 

665
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:39,800
Look at The algorithmic ones at 
least. 

666
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,400
Try to like, find the most 
performance validator, which 

667
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,700
often is just the one that has 
like, zero percent commission 

668
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:47,300
rate. 
So, I think a lot of the 

669
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,800
algorithmic solutions on Solana 
right now, they basically 

670
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,700
delegate a lot to, like, loafy 
validators and that. 

671
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,200
Also, I kind of obviously means 
that these operators of these 

672
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,300
notes actually don't really 
learn. 

673
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,600
So, like kind of the money goes 
away from the note of where it 

674
00:40:03,607 --> 00:40:07,600
is, and I don't think that's the
long-term a good idea in a way, 

675
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,800
but I mean, maybe if I'm Evie is
there, then they would pick 

676
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:18,000
notes that do better on Mev. 
So it could again kind of lead 

677
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,700
to that because I guess if your 
liquids taking protocol really 

678
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:24,300
like your main product is the 
apy of your and the Integrations

679
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:27,500
of course, which is mostly the 
goal of the degrees is also to 

680
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,000
increase the apy of your, the 
holders of the liquids taking 

681
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,100
acid. 
So yeah, like yeah, remains an 

682
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,600
interesting to see. 
I think we have I'm still very, 

683
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,600
very early. 
I think that's another, you 

684
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,000
know, another big Trend right 
big thing. 

685
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,800
That's happening is just a tea, 
you know, interoperability is 

686
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,800
really no really starting to 
happen because there is I mean 

687
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,600
been work on this for, you know,
a long time. 

688
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
We had early things like what 
was it? 

689
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,000
Like the beat go, you know, PTC 
only Theory, mm, that was like, 

690
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,700
you know, custodial stuff like 
that, you know, but then, you 

691
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:12,200
know, then you had You know, 
bunch of different Bridges, but 

692
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,500
now I think, for example, IBC 
write a scene like pretty 

693
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,700
massive adoption. 
I haven't seen, like, I'm not I 

694
00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:25,100
haven't really looked at the 
numbers recently. 

695
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,700
I think the house Moses did like
120 million, IBC volume in the 

696
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:35,700
last day, I guess overall 134 
million and one day over a 

697
00:41:35,707 --> 00:41:39,700
hundred thousand transactions. 
So, yeah, I mean, that's Because

698
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,000
I mean remember when it launched
and then it was like new, a 

699
00:41:42,008 --> 00:41:45,000
million transactions within like
a month very quickly. 

700
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,800
And now, you know, it's mostly 
Sloan doing 100,000 a day. 

701
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:54,600
And and so I think I use he's 
obviously doing tremendously 

702
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,500
well, like getting like a huge 
amount of adoption. 

703
00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:02,300
A lot of new cars, must change 
the launching. 

704
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:08,600
And I think the interesting 
thing there right is that IEC 

705
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:09,500
still? 
L. 

706
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,200
You know, IBC is a generalized 
protocol, right? 

707
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,000
Where you can pass messages and 
then you can do different 

708
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,400
things. 
But like, right now all that's 

709
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,800
happening is basically token 
transfers, right? 

710
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,800
Like nothing, nothing else like 
but you even now I think it's, 

711
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,500
you know, it's not life right on
the cosmos up this entertaining,

712
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:35,700
count swing and the ancient 
accounts things pretty cool. 

713
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,400
I think the ancient accounts 
basically means that you can 

714
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,700
have, you know, an account and 
one That's like controlled by a 

715
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:46,200
messages from another chain. 
So like you could imagine, for 

716
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:53,700
example, let's say Cosmo. 
Stop holding awesomo on osmosis 

717
00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:55,800
and likes taking it or like 
vote. 

718
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,500
For example, you could have 
like, you know, cosmas how could

719
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:03,500
by osmosis and geike both in the
governance on the osmosis 

720
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:07,600
Network? 
And that's just one example, 

721
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,500
right? 
I mean, I think there's this and

722
00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:13,700
it quick Silver. 
Right, that example, right is is

723
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:17,400
where you basically say that, 
okay, you're going to have this 

724
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:23,200
one chain that has an account on
another chain with weights, 

725
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,800
taking through it. 
But then issuing a liquid taking

726
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,500
asset on the host Jane. 
So let's say you have like, 

727
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:35,300
let's say quicksave were staking
atoms on the cosmos hop and 

728
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:39,500
then, issuing some sort of, you 
know, Quicksilver atoms, which 

729
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:43,700
is another token that Similar to
the steak beef and I do. 

730
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:53,200
And so I think that's digital 
use cases that this opens just 

731
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,100
gonna be mind-blowing. 
Actually hard to wrap your head 

732
00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:58,900
around. 
What exactly will happen. 

733
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:03,500
I guess it will. 
I mean, I remember some years 

734
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:07,600
ago. 
That was the web was he called 

735
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,100
the polkadot conference and 
then, you know, someone a 

736
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:13,800
deguerin gave a talk. 
And someone asked, I think it 

737
00:44:13,808 --> 00:44:17,000
was Dennis from, he was a 
security at a time, but he has 

738
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,000
like, what about composability, 
you know, you have these 

739
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,900
different pair chains and then 
like isn't the great advantage 

740
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:26,100
over here, IAM, right? 
You can you just build on top of

741
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:31,300
each other? 
And, you know, somebody bids me,

742
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:32,500
you know. 
Safety first. 

743
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:35,100
And then you can put the steak 
even to curve and somebody else 

744
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:39,900
build something else on top and 
like how does that work across 

745
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:47,200
chains and until now it doesn't 
work so well, but I think we are

746
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:52,600
on the cusp of that starting to 
work, you know, pretty well and 

747
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,100
maybe one more point on this. 
Like one thing. 

748
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:57,900
I found super interesting. 
I recently did a podcast with 

749
00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:05,300
the near guys. 
And they in their smart contract

750
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:08,500
model. 
Actually all of the Crofts 

751
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:11,900
contract interactions. 
They said kind of working this 

752
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:17,000
asynchronous way in the same way
that like, let's say Cosmos Hub 

753
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:21,300
would interact with something on
as Moses or something on Tara. 

754
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:26,100
That's how even on the same 
chain on near like this works. 

755
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:30,100
And and I think that was like 
very interesting and it's kind 

756
00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:37,400
of like A good case for just how
well that might actually work. 

757
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,100
So I think this composability 
thing on being on the same chain

758
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:48,200
is going to be it's going to 
look a lot less like a lot less 

759
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,100
of a Advantage. 
I think I mean still going to be

760
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:54,900
some Advantage but I think it's 
yeah that beer design is really 

761
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:57,300
cool because I guess in the end 
of the thing they're trying to 

762
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:01,600
solve was that people would want
to be on the same chard as some 

763
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,100
Popular application and 
everything crowds there because 

764
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:10,000
it's faster, right? 
So, you avoid having that which 

765
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,100
I also find pretty interesting 
and I guess yeah. 

766
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:15,000
Nowadays. 
There are a lot of solutions. 

767
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,000
I mean IV stands out because 
actually I said it's protocol. 

768
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,200
It's very trustless or trust 
minimized. 

769
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:26,300
I guess versus I think, on the 
other hand, we have kind of 

770
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,800
other things. 
Emerging also, like, I guess it 

771
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,100
seems, there's a spectrum, 
always right, but I found But 

772
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:36,200
very interesting from Terra from
the start kind of Trailblazer in

773
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,900
that space initially with Tara 
shuttle a bridge, which was very

774
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:44,600
very centralized and then but 
like starting to get assets from

775
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,000
other chains into Tara to kind 
of supplement. 

776
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:53,800
This anchor yield, right? 
Initially, I guess III so B. 

777
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:59,900
If and now for example also be 
sold soon where they actually 

778
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:01,700
switched, also the bridges from 
that fair. 

779
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,100
Bridge to Wormhole, which is, at
least, I guess another is 

780
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,500
another protocol. 
It's again, another Network in 

781
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:12,500
and of itself, but I guess it's 
more distance than having one 

782
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:16,600
and then IVC or like other 
protocols, like this being being

783
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,300
like, the ultimate may be a 
solution of of about Warhol is 

784
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:22,300
also that he has an insurance 
fund it. 

785
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:31,600
Yeah, IPC has unpaid re layers. 
That's the yeah, so Yeah, I 

786
00:47:31,607 --> 00:47:34,600
guess yeah, a lot of things are 
happening and and sometimes you 

787
00:47:34,607 --> 00:47:40,500
know, the bridges are like a 
slower than the demand for cross

788
00:47:40,500 --> 00:47:42,400
chain applications. 
I think that's what Tara 

789
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,300
realized very well or like 
trusted collateral. 

790
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:49,400
And they really that's that's I 
think a big part of why became 

791
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:55,000
so popular right now is like, so
dominating so much because it 

792
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,800
really like after cross chain 
bringing both UST to other 

793
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:00,900
trades, but also bring 
collateral. 

794
00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:05,200
Other changes to Terra itself. 
So I it's really fascinating to 

795
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,000
see. 
See what's going on there. 

796
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:10,900
Yeah. 
Yeah, I mean, in a way, I think 

797
00:48:10,900 --> 00:48:14,300
it's a good point because in a 
way, I think Tara is like, the 

798
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:20,300
most advanced cross chain 
application even even something 

799
00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:22,600
I could samosas. 
Okay, like I mean you have a lot

800
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,900
of other assets coming on to, as
Moses you trade them. 

801
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:28,500
But like, actually tear our has 
a lot more sophisticated use 

802
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:32,100
cases, right? 
Where you have to, you know, you

803
00:48:32,100 --> 00:48:35,700
see going elsewhere and I think 
they are. 

804
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:42,700
I am personally, me know, 
there's a lot of like questions 

805
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:47,300
around UST often how sustainable
is it? 

806
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:53,100
And but I think it is a I think 
it's absolutely brilliant 

807
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,700
strategy to use other crypto 
assets as like, you know, some 

808
00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:01,200
kind of backing in addition to 
Luna so that you have both the 

809
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:05,700
scalability of being able to 
like increase the UST Supply 

810
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:12,200
fast, but you have This like 
decentralized kind of acid pool 

811
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,500
backing it. 
And I think if you think of like

812
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:22,800
the if you think of just how 
massive this use case is like a 

813
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,700
decentralized stable coin, which
is enormous use case, right? 

814
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:33,500
So I have been I think it's very
cool and still terrible 

815
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:38,300
confirmed. 
Yeah, I think personally, yeah, 

816
00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:43,100
I it's a great strategy and I 
think the one thing where I, 

817
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,800
what I would find cool because 
in the end now it's a lot 

818
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,500
reliant on like the the assets 
that cover the other trains are 

819
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:51,700
through Wormhole. 
Mostly. 

820
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:55,600
And I think that's also like a 
big risk, of course, to to 

821
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,000
Anchor. 
If there is something really 

822
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,100
goes wrong. 
That could also be a problem. 

823
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:02,100
And I guess that's where the 
Entertainer counts kind of come 

824
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:04,000
in. 
Because, in the end, ideally 

825
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:08,200
Tara codes use that. 
And have like osmosis or IBC 

826
00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:09,800
enable the essence there and 
maybe they have like a little 

827
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,100
bit or like at least diversify 
the bridges. 

828
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:14,700
I think that that would be cool.
But ultimately like have a 

829
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:18,300
bridge that is probably like 
yeah, IBC based. 

830
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:20,900
And obviously, Tara is build on 
the cosmos SDK so should be 

831
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:21,700
possible. 
I guess. 

832
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:25,700
I don't know exactly the details
but I would fight that pretty 

833
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:27,700
cool. 
And I hope someone in Terrorist 

834
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:29,200
looking at that too. 
Yeah. 

835
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,600
I think this is the other thing 
that has been like into. 

836
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,400
I think that's interesting about
bridges right? 

837
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,100
Where R. 
To me, it seems that you have 

838
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:43,600
two very different. 
Approaches. 

839
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,200
Right? 
Like you have IBC, basically 

840
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,300
have like like client on each 
side and then, you know, you can

841
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:54,500
just put asset in between and of
course, the nice thing is that, 

842
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:56,000
you know, the cosmos are 
validated. 

843
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,300
For example, they don't also 
have to run validator on, you 

844
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,900
know, some other chain. 
Nobody has to basically do 

845
00:51:02,900 --> 00:51:05,300
anything on the other chain and 
you still can have this 

846
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:06,700
connection between the other 
chains. 

847
00:51:07,100 --> 00:51:10,300
So it's like, you know, very 
permission is very open like, 

848
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:16,000
you know, Fantastic Model. 
And working super well, but of 

849
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,500
course, a big downside is you 
have to have that light client 

850
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:22,800
and the light client works. 
Well in, you know, between 

851
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,000
Cosmos as UK in kind of comes 
out of the box, but then you try

852
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,200
to do that with, I don't know if
you're IAM or like a lot of 

853
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:35,100
other chains Solana and it's 
super hot. 

854
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:37,900
Actually, we did a bunch of work
of course or one drive to 

855
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:42,200
basically do this kind of cell 0
Cosmos and building, you know, 

856
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,300
Cosmos like And then solidity 
and, you know, kind of work. 

857
00:51:46,300 --> 00:51:50,800
It was, you know, very 
challenging and, and I think 

858
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,400
that's where you have to the 
power of something. 

859
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,800
Like, you know, the Wormhole 
axle are where you have, you 

860
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,500
know, Central set of actors who 
can like, run lots of different 

861
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:05,000
chains. 
And then, yeah, and of course, 

862
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,600
you have to path dependence 
either, right? 

863
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:08,800
So, that's something they get 
is. 

864
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,700
So I think in the end, both of 
them are going to be like, huge 

865
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:14,900
Success, I think both 
approaches. 

866
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:16,800
Yeah. 
Yeah, I agree. 

867
00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:19,700
There's even like I guess even 
more approaches with the 

868
00:52:19,700 --> 00:52:24,200
optimistic Nomad design which is
like Southern between one. 

869
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:27,800
Yeah, don't make me try to 
explain it. 

870
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:33,000
But I guess. 
Yeah, I mean in general I think 

871
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:38,400
yeah, definitely been I guess 
the Hot Topic in the last few 

872
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,600
months or actually even weeks 
disparate interoperability. 

873
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:48,300
And will remain. 
So and I guess IBC is still kind

874
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:51,100
of under the radar in The Wider 
sense. 

875
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,600
I mean, we were also at the 
Avalanche conference and of 

876
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,300
course, we have a something 
Avalanche fans in chorus one, 

877
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,400
but I guess they are also, it 
was, you know, there's the 

878
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,000
something that was kind of 
similar to the cosmos zones. 

879
00:53:05,300 --> 00:53:08,000
And then there is also supposed 
to be a interoperability 

880
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,100
protocol, but it's kind of not 
there yet, of course, and I've 

881
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:11,400
seized there is being used 
today. 

882
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,600
I guess they're then there. 
Yeah, we'll see. 

883
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,300
We'll see how that goes. 
And even maybe how how the 

884
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:23,000
interoperability between because
I guess between finality fast 

885
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,800
finality trains, the IVC 
connection should be easier this

886
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,600
like client design. 
So I guess more chains could 

887
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,100
that have that could adopt IVC 
by. 

888
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:37,800
I guess it's always like the 
thing with standards that you 

889
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,100
have to convince people to use 
yours. 

890
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,200
Yeah. 
No II do think that makes sense.

891
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,600
Right? 
So I definitely think IBC will 

892
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:52,300
spread Beyond. 
Cosmos SDK networks part. 

893
00:53:52,300 --> 00:53:56,400
Of course, it's it is always 
never going to be a solution for

894
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,200
like connecting to bitcoin or, 
you know, various different 

895
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,700
Networks. 
Okay, so the other thing I 

896
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:10,900
wanted to maybe final topic, I 
wanted to touch on is sort of 

897
00:54:10,900 --> 00:54:15,700
the topic of crypto markets. 
Now, it's something we like 

898
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:23,100
hardly ever talked about on this
podcast and also something like 

899
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:29,900
I don't feel I have You know, 
like great insights in. 

900
00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:35,400
I'm basically always optimistic,
always thinks, always think 

901
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,700
things are going to be fine. 
And then like, you know, in 

902
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:41,200
retrospect they can look back 
and like, 2018 is like, should 

903
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,500
have been obvious that this is 
like a bobble iron hat. 

904
00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:48,900
I mean, kind of kind of like 
kind of recognized it the like 

905
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:59,000
but then I was now, of course we
do have Interesting times like 

906
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:04,700
in the world. 
So maybe, you know what? 

907
00:55:04,700 --> 00:55:07,600
What are the interesting times? 
Probably the most interesting 

908
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,600
one. 
I think the most interesting 

909
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,800
aspect maybe inflation now, 
because I think that's mean, 

910
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,700
maybe there's, you know, the one
is, is monetary tightening, 

911
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:18,400
right? 
That lucky. 

912
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,000
I've had for many many years 
yet. 

913
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,000
I Central bank's, you know, like
issue, you know, basically, Is 

914
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,800
the money supply. 
And then, of course, what 

915
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,600
happens? 
We've all the money like that 

916
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,800
has to go somewhere goes to buy 
of assets as the prices go up 

917
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,100
and you know, it's interesting 
think of real estate. 

918
00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:40,800
Right? 
Like if you're like in a real 

919
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,900
estate investor, then probably 
you entire investment career 

920
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:48,700
like the 30 years. 
Let's say you've been around for

921
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:50,600
a long time, right? 
You can invest in for 30 years. 

922
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:56,200
You spend the entire 30 years 
investing in an, Iron meant 

923
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,700
we're basically interest rates 
were going down. 

924
00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:03,200
And of course, if interest rates
are going down, then it means 

925
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,300
that if you just do this like 
discounted cash flow, right? 

926
00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:10,300
You take all the future income 
streams and you take and you 

927
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:15,300
basically say what's the present
value of those future streams. 

928
00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:19,700
If the interest rate is lower, 
the value of the streams in the 

929
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:23,800
Futures is goes up. 
And so you guys, you have this 

930
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,700
situation that basically, 
Because of the change in 

931
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:32,100
interest rates, you kind of 
bound to have continuously 

932
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:33,800
increasing prices. 
I think we. 

933
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:39,500
So like used to this and I mean 
who remembers like Kaiser High 

934
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:42,200
inflation. 
Like I mean that was in the 80s 

935
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,100
right in the 80s. 
You had that high inflation in. 

936
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,400
And so now it's weird right now,
you all of a sudden having a 

937
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,300
higher inflation, having this 
monetary tightening. 

938
00:56:54,100 --> 00:56:57,800
Of course, you have the whole 
war and Russia and stuff. 

939
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,900
So, and I was, I was reading, 
like, Arthur Hays, you know, he 

940
00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:06,000
wrote a great post fantastic 
writer. 

941
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:12,300
So that, you know, the big makes
it makes founder, you know, he 

942
00:57:12,300 --> 00:57:14,600
was, he was basically being very
bearish, right? 

943
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,300
He was like, okay. 
It's I think for other reasons 

944
00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:22,100
as well, but it's just been like
thinking a little bit about, you

945
00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:26,700
know, what is this interplay 
between this macroeconomics and 

946
00:57:26,900 --> 00:57:30,600
crypto and was going to mean for
crypto markets. 

947
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:34,000
He's like a bear Market ahead or
maybe not. 

948
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,200
Do you have any thoughts on 
that? 

949
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:43,000
Yeah, I guess we come to the 
section where we predict a price

950
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,000
first. 
What's the Bitcoin price on on 

951
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,300
New Year's Eve? 
I can only I guess I'll say 

952
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:54,500
that. 
I mean for the longest time 

953
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:57,500
right there was this scenario 
that like everything will 

954
00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:59,000
credit. 
It's been around for a while. 

955
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,500
I guess. 
Now, we're at a point where we 

956
00:58:01,500 --> 00:58:04,300
also have this war on top of 
everything and I guess we had 

957
00:58:04,300 --> 00:58:06,300
covid. 
I guess that was also already. 

958
00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:09,000
The first time where we thought 
maybe Now, everything's falling 

959
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:10,900
apart in this asset. 
Bubble is crashing. 

960
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:14,000
Now. 
It's kind of the war, but who 

961
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,600
knows if it's actually going to 
happen, and then I guess it's 

962
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,600
the second thing. 
Let's say, if we come from that,

963
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,300
what was happening to crypto, 
when that happens like, for the 

964
00:58:23,308 --> 00:58:26,300
longest time, right? 
It also at some point, the, The 

965
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:29,700
Narrative was that the a Bitcoin
is just hedge against the other 

966
00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:33,600
assets because that fails, then 
everyone will flee to bitcoin as

967
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,000
the safe haven. 
I would actually say, I think if

968
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:41,500
If this all collapses, then 
probably it will still also mean

969
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,000
Bitcoin. 
And crypto would also collapsing

970
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,900
wouldn't be that crypto does 
good in these times. 

971
00:58:48,900 --> 00:58:52,900
So I think it will still be 
correlated then in terms of 

972
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:58,400
like, you know, it's this the 
Mania over. 

973
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,800
Can we further increase 
everything? 

974
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,200
I guess? 
I don't have a Good opinion on 

975
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:08,200
that and what time frame that is
or what's the, we know in the 

976
00:59:08,207 --> 00:59:10,000
world where it just keeps going 
like this. 

977
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,300
Or does it have to fall apart at
some point? 

978
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:16,100
Yeah. 
I mean, I think you, of course. 

979
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:21,800
Do you have a bunch of trends 
that are like very bullish 

980
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,400
crypto and they're not stopping 
right? 

981
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:29,900
Like I think, first of all you 
just have the advance of the 

982
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:34,100
technology and you know, like We
talked about a bunch of stuff, 

983
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:35,600
right? 
Like Hoover staying 

984
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,300
interoperability like so many 
other things and if he's 

985
00:59:39,300 --> 00:59:42,700
experienced everything's getting
better scalability rights 

986
00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:47,300
capabilities getting solved. 
I think it's pretty clear like 

987
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:50,000
so you can have like abundance 
of cheap transaction. 

988
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,100
So all of those things are 
progressing and there's so much 

989
00:59:54,100 --> 00:59:58,300
money in this space, right? 
So much funding that even if 

990
00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:02,400
there is like a pretty traumatic
bear. 

991
01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:06,900
Even if there is a big crash, it
may slow down things a little 

992
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:09,700
bit but it's still going to 
progress, right? 

993
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:15,700
Because also many companies in 
the Crypt space they have, I 

994
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:19,000
mean all the exchanges, right? 
They have like huge more money 

995
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,500
than you never spend. 
The many startups have raised so

996
01:00:21,500 --> 01:00:24,000
much money. 
So I think that's just 

997
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,200
progressing, right? 
And then I also think mainstream

998
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,900
adoption. 
You know, we have seen nft. 

999
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:34,600
So I'd bring in lots of users. 
And and I think that's also 

1000
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,600
going to kind of continue. 
I would like, new New Year's 

1001
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:44,300
experiences, new maybe games. 
Like, I don't think that's gonna

1002
01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:46,600
stop. 
Even if the market goes down, 

1003
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,700
right? 
I still think you're going to 

1004
01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:51,100
see more people doing something 
crypto related. 

1005
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,200
And then the institutional the 
option, we talked a little bit 

1006
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:55,400
about it, right? 
Okay. 

1007
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,300
It's very slow. 
But of course, the I think the 

1008
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:03,500
flip side of that is also that 
it may take these institutions, 

1009
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,200
like a very long time. 
To decide to do something 

1010
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,800
crypto, then take some long time
to like move, they move slowly, 

1011
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:13,700
but they're not going to just 
stop, right? 

1012
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:17,900
Taking a, I need you might slow 
down how much money they put in.

1013
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,400
Yeah, there's also like I guess 
they have certain, you know, you

1014
01:01:23,408 --> 01:01:25,600
have a van that has that many 
millions that you kind of need 

1015
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,000
to deploy and then maybe they 
would continue that or they just

1016
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,200
take so long that yeah, I guess 
it will be continuous. 

1017
01:01:32,100 --> 01:01:36,200
Stream coming in, maybe not as 
big or that wasn't actually. 

1018
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,100
I saw some person treats. 
Unfortunately, don't remember 

1019
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:43,400
who that also can can can give 
credit here, but shout about. 

1020
01:01:43,500 --> 01:01:48,900
Yeah, but basically, you know, 
kind of pointing that out. 

1021
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:51,600
I just like, how much money has 
been raised by, you know, like 

1022
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,200
crypto VC funds, equipped 
investment funds, like, be 

1023
01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:58,000
deployed. 
And, of course, that's going a 

1024
01:01:58,008 --> 01:02:01,800
lot into, you know, this private
funding rounds and of course, 

1025
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,100
Seeing private funding answer. 
That, you know, huge valuations 

1026
01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:07,400
like, raising lots and lots of 
money, you know, everyone's 

1027
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:13,700
raising money and I mean, that 
does mean, I guess that you're 

1028
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:18,300
going to have a lot of, you 
know, funds being deployed. 

1029
01:02:19,100 --> 01:02:23,600
But at the same time was also 
sort of the point was okay, but 

1030
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:28,100
who's going to be like where 
does it demand come from 

1031
01:02:28,100 --> 01:02:29,000
afterwards? 
Right? 

1032
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,200
Because, like, okay money goes 
in, they built something. 

1033
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:33,700
They go live. 
Now. 

1034
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:37,800
There's some token trading and 
like, who's buying that token 

1035
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,600
right for in the end of January 
to return for this mess. 

1036
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,400
This thing took the go up like, 
you know, ten times by covid-19.

1037
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,300
So yeah. 
Yeah. 

1038
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:50,900
So I mean, I guess that reminds 
you little bit maybe after 2017 

1039
01:02:50,900 --> 01:02:53,200
18 thing, right? 
Where there's also like a lot of

1040
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:57,000
money going into these Ico 
projects and then, you know, 

1041
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,700
they may be came out, but then 
there was like, nobody there to 

1042
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:03,600
buy it. 
Yeah. 

1043
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,400
I think the question is just, 
yeah. 

1044
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,700
Where are you in? 
Are we in this cycle? 

1045
01:03:07,700 --> 01:03:08,200
Right? 
I guess. 

1046
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:12,000
Is it already? 
It's always there still like 

1047
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:13,900
another wave coming. 
I do think it denied. 

1048
01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:18,100
The nature of this Market is 
that it like creates exuberance 

1049
01:03:18,100 --> 01:03:22,000
and it goes too far. 
So this reading and it is 

1050
01:03:22,100 --> 01:03:24,900
newsletter from that Moorhead 
and you know, he was pointing 

1051
01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:28,600
out where then use some sort of,
I don't know what it is, like 

1052
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,700
some kind of, you know, moving 
average thing progressing, you 

1053
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:34,400
know, going to the Moon Over 
time and then seeing like where 

1054
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:38,500
we are compared to this, you 
know, inevitable labor. 

1055
01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:40,100
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1056
01:03:40,100 --> 01:03:40,800
Yeah. 
I don't like that. 

1057
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,900
Yeah, it's basically activating 
bow chart and you saying like, 

1058
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:48,200
Okay, if you look at that, but I
feel like you know, 56% 

1059
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,100
underneath the you know, trend 
line. 

1060
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:54,500
So this is like cheapest 
cheapest ever kind of, right? 

1061
01:03:54,500 --> 01:04:00,700
So I guess that's so definitely 
know the face of like crazy 

1062
01:04:00,700 --> 01:04:03,000
exuberance, right? 
That's that's pretty clear. 

1063
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,200
I mean, I guess it in terms of 
like I guess there's there was 

1064
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,600
this vitalik post ones, right? 
Like crypto markets are at this 

1065
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,900
point. 
Have we earned it or something? 

1066
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:16,400
And it's very hard for me to 
like, kind of put into context, 

1067
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,800
how much of it is like actual 
value and or like, sustainable, 

1068
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:23,900
obviously, it's kind of not 
sustainable some things. 

1069
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:26,000
And yeah, where's the 
exuberance? 

1070
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,600
When is the point where it's 
gotten too far? 

1071
01:04:31,300 --> 01:04:33,200
It doesn't feel like it right 
now. 

1072
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,300
I mean, maybe that's that's why 
it is the case. 

1073
01:04:36,300 --> 01:04:38,800
I guess that's there's always 
the problem with these with 

1074
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,300
these things. 
But I mean, yeah, I mean, we'll 

1075
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:46,600
see. 
I don't have too much Alpha to 

1076
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:51,100
leak here today. 
Cool. 

1077
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:53,000
All right, then. 
Well, thanks so much for your 

1078
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:56,300
service fun. 
Enjoy this conversation and 

1079
01:04:56,700 --> 01:04:58,700
thanks so much for. 
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

1080
01:04:58,900 --> 01:05:01,500
Didn't expect to be on an 
epicenter that soon. 

1081
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:04,300
I didn't even build anything. 
No. 

1082
01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:08,400
Yeah, it was it was great. 
And yeah, looking forward to 

1083
01:05:09,700 --> 01:05:14,700
what's to come and Yeah, see you
tomorrow at work. 

1084
01:05:15,700 --> 01:05:17,900
Yeah, absolutely. 
And thanks so much for listeners

1085
01:05:17,900 --> 01:05:20,300
for tuning in and let us know 
what your thoughts are. 

1086
01:05:20,700 --> 01:05:24,700
You can tweet at us at epicenter
BTC and yeah, thanks so much. 

1087
01:05:24,700 --> 01:05:28,600
We'll see you next week. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1088
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,000
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1089
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,000
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1090
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,700
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1091
01:05:36,700 --> 01:05:39,100
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1092
01:05:39,107 --> 01:05:41,700
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1093
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,000
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1094
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,400
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1095
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,700
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1096
01:05:49,707 --> 01:05:51,700
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1097
01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:54,800
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1098
01:05:55,100 --> 01:05:57,500
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1099
01:05:57,500 --> 01:05:59,700
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1100
01:05:59,900 --> 01:06:02,300
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1101
01:06:02,300 --> 01:06:04,700
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1102
01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:05,900
forward to being back next week.