1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,960 I think the problem that a lot of these different applications 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,840 or depths have faced is that they weren't able to reduce 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,240 their cost of capital faster than the rate at which their 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,000 emissions trailed off. So a lot of these applications 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,880 are subsidizing their yields by issuing their own incentives in 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,560 the form of their governance token or Dow token that gives 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,120 their users a a vested upside in the protocol or the protocol 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,480 treasury. Really the idea of Turtle was 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,680 how can I leverage the collective liquidity and 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,880 bargaining power of numerous LP's and liquid funds at the 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,000 same time to negotiate better deal and sort of incentives or 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,400 upsides on behalf of the entire community. 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,960 And if they interacted with any of the partner protocols that 14 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,800 had a kind of a liquidity offering in place, the Turtle 15 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,040 Dow would start issuing rewards directly to these addresses of 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,680 ELP's of ours that essentially conducted those activities that 17 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,720 our partners deem valuable enough to start paying the Dow 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,960 for. It's a much safer way for us to 19 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,520 essentially back the activity of all of our users and and pay 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,880 them additional boosts from the partner protocols that we work 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,280 with on the upside. Welcome to Epicenter, the show, 22 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,720 which talks about technologies, projects and people driving 23 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,720 decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 24 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,760 I'm Brian Crane, and today I'm speaking with Essie Lagabardi. 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,960 He's the founder and CEO of Turtle Club and Turtle Club is a 26 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:25,520 Defy liquidity protocol. So I'm really excited to talk 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,200 with him about Defy and about Turtle and all the exciting 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,280 things happening in that area. 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Today. 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,640 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a collective 44 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,120 dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. 45 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:28,840 Gnosis leads innovation with Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri 46 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,120 reshaping open banking and money. 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,560 With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, they're building a more 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,040 resilient, privacy focused Internet. 49 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,880 If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Gnosis 50 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,520 Chain offers the same development environment as 51 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,040 Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 52 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,680 It's supported by over 200,000 validators, making Gnosis Chain 53 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,240 a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 54 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,520 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 55 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,920 governance, where every voice matters. 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 57 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,240 Deploy on the EVM compatible Gnosis Chain or secure the 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,560 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 59 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,680 Start your decentralization journey today at gnosis dot IO. 60 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,400 Cool. Well thanks so much for coming 61 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,960 on. See I've, you know, spoken quite 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,760 a few times with you recently. I should also note here that of 63 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,360 course Ron with practice and personally we all invested in 64 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,640 Turtle. So I've been yeah, like learning 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,120 much more about the fight even though I've been in crypto for 66 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:43,560 such a long time in recent time. So I'm really excited to to dive 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,840 in the whole D5 world with you today, but maybe just start off 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,840 with Sharon will be like, how did you get into crypto first? 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,720 Yeah, absolutely. I'm from London originally. 70 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:03,320 I was born and grew up in the UK and back in 2011 when I kept 71 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,040 coming across Bitcoin, unfortunately, he didn't 72 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,080 understand it, didn't really, you know, take the time to look 73 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,560 into it, which obviously with the benefit of hindsight, I, I, 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:19,640 I regret EP, but given that I studied business and management 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,200 and I was very interested in economics when I was younger and 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,600 growing up, as well as technology. 77 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,160 And I always had a thesis that tech technology would eat the 78 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,520 financial sort of world, like Amazon 8 retail or a lot of 79 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,000 these tech companies were starting to eat the lunch of 80 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,800 existing industries. BTC kept coming up in my feeds 81 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,840 online. And then in early 2013, I came 82 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:52,440 across Andreas Antonopoulos video online and he was one of 83 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,040 the early great communicators and he just kind of broke it 84 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,560 down in a really, you know, really easy way to understand. 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,280 And from that moment on, I was kind of hooked and obsessed. 86 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,400 Unfortunately this was a stream I last year of university, so I 87 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,120 didn't have very much money, but yeah, I worked pretty hard to 88 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,440 try and, you know, acquire some crypto back then, you know, 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,080 obviously much lower prices than today. 90 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,040 So I have been just kind of a Hoddle ever since really. 91 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,240 And and yeah, just and I've learnt a lot throughout the 92 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,600 years. After university I I worked in 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,760 Stradfind the City in London, mainly working as a matchmaker 94 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,640 between the buy and sell side for small financial media 95 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,640 companies. So we used to organise all the 96 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,320 banking conferences in Switzerland, Singapore, London. 97 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:45,200 And it was my job to try and get a lot of these big LP's on the 98 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:50,160 buy side and a lot of these sell side institutions where there 99 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,720 would be investment banks, asset managers, family offices, hedge 100 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,040 funds that have created financial instruments to sell to 101 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,960 the buy side. So after that, I worked for 102 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,800 around 2-3 years as a financial accountant for Edelman as well 103 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,880 before, you know, just going full full deep into the space 104 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,240 full time back in 2017. So yeah, it's time flies when 105 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:21,600 you're having fun, for sure. So let's, let's talk about Defy 106 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,240 sort of a little bit on a high level. 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,680 And you know, looking a bit at the history, how do you how do 108 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,440 you think about the Defy history? 109 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,120 Like when did it start? And what are sort of the most 110 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,360 important milestones in the history of Defy? 111 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,120 That's a great question. You'll get a very different 112 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,120 answer based on who you ask. I think there was definitely a 113 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:54,680 lot of big milestones and important phases within Defy. 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,400 I think early on in Ethereum you weren't able to do much with it. 115 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,640 So obviously you had the ICO phase back in 2017. 116 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,680 Romania was about, I guess, kind of minting tokens. 117 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:14,480 But I think the first kind of, you know, beginning of the file, 118 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,040 the very, very beginning was actually the Dow that led to the 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,520 Ethereal Classic fork in a way that's kind of a very Defy thing 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,640 to kind of bootstrap a Dow and Stefan Tuol, one of the Co 121 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,080 founders. He wasn't I didn't know him at 122 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,840 the time, but he he lived across the River Thames from me in 123 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,360 London. So that actually was the first 124 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:41,000 thing that really caught my attention to Ethereum in terms 125 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,080 of when it really started. I think for me, the first kind 126 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,160 of blue chip D5 protocol was Maker. 127 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,040 The idea of using ETH to minter synthetic stable coin against in 128 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,880 the form of ACDP was I guess kind of ushered in the D5 era in 129 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,200 my opinion. And it's great to see that, you 130 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,120 know, Maker, you know, we're the first, they're still around 131 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,880 today and they built a really, really good business. 132 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,880 So but but then there's a lot of other big milestones. 133 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,560 The synthetic guys don't really get sort of much credit for 134 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,200 this. But in my opinion, I think they 135 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,200 started D5 Summer. You know, I think with the USD 136 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,360 pool and the incentives, they, from my understanding, created 137 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,160 the 1st pool that was incentivized with these seal 138 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,840 farming incentives. And then off the back of that, 139 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,440 you had, you know, Curve, Yern, obviously Andre Cornier, Michael 140 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,919 Egoroth from Curve, you know, and a bunch of these really 141 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,480 talented founders that started, you know, combining multiple 142 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,920 different concepts and ideas. And it really kicked off D5 143 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,600 Summer. You know, you obviously had 144 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:59,320 Sushi Swap and their vampire attack on Uni Swap Compound 145 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,240 issuing a bunch of incentives as well. 146 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,680 So I think a lot of people in Defy, you know, have very fond 147 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:09,360 memories of Defy Summer back in 2020. 148 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,520 What do you think are the most important primitives when you 149 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,400 look at Defy today? Sort of the core fundamental 150 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:24,400 protocols that are actually, yeah, the most important ones. 151 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,040 So I have a very simple view on it. 152 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:34,000 I can segment the market by revenue and and protocol fees. 153 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,440 I think the biggest use case by far in D5 is just kind of 154 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,520 payments and stablecoins. The amounts of money that 155 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,920 Tether, USDC and a bunch of these other stablecoin protocols 156 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,200 like Athena starting to print is, you know, truly insane and 157 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:53,920 also very good for the space given that they issue a tonne of 158 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,560 on chain yield, which then drives further adoption. 159 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,200 The the second biggest use case from my understanding is spot 160 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,800 and pop Dexes. We've seen recently with Hyper 161 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,360 Liquid that they were able to create a really unique yield 162 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,600 source from all of the yield and fees that are generated by all 163 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,680 of the traders on Hyper Liquid that make it very, very 164 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:21,400 difficult for other chains or ecosystems to replicate. 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,120 After that, I think lending and borrowing is I think by market 166 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:32,520 size, probably the 4th largest. But then there's also some 167 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,720 really other, you know, really good use cases like obviously 168 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,000 yield markets with Pendul, Spectra, Hyperdrive, and then in 169 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,240 a host of I guess smaller ones. And now you know, Turtle is also 170 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,680 trying to create a market for liquidity as well, you know, you 171 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:55,560 know, a distribution protocol that helps kind of monetize the 172 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,360 on chain activities of our free users. 173 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,920 And in terms of the the size of these, I mean, of course 174 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:10,000 everyone is aware of Tether which is yeah, producing insane 175 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,840 amounts, I think 15 billion last year or some something like that 176 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,360 I think. Something crazy and they keep 177 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,560 buying Bitcoin with a percentage of their revenue and and 178 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,560 obviously, you know, that's doing pretty well. 179 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:26,520 So yeah, I think in terms of revenue per employee, they must 180 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,280 be sort of up there with the most profitable companies in the 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,360 world. It wouldn't surprise me, 182 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,640 frankly, if ever become one of the biggest companies in the 183 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,000 world at this point. In terms of the size of these 184 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,240 different categories, how do you have a view in in terms of the 185 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,840 the relative size? I haven't done a kind of a 186 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,560 analysis of the Tam of all of these markets. 187 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,680 However, kind of a good friend of mine, he uses this example 188 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:59,480 that currently the the way the space is shaped is a bit of a 189 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,560 pyramid. You have kind of a bunch of 190 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,400 users on top of the pyramid and then at the bottom of the 191 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,720 pyramid you have a lot of these protocols that are kind of 192 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,240 fighting for a limited amount of web free users. 193 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,640 Which is kind. Of fracturing the liquidity in 194 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,640 the user base between a lot of Aussie different chains, asset 195 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,280 protocol stats, etcetera. And then he uses this example of 196 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:28,040 this inverted pyramid for connecting existing web free 197 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,600 chains or communities with existing distribution channels 198 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:35,400 that are kind of higher up the stack or generally sort of more 199 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,680 web to base. So a great example of this was 200 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:42,240 when Metamask switched on the swaps, at one point, Meadowmar 201 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,160 swaps accounted for 80% of the trading volume on one inch, 202 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,080 which obviously made one inch a lot of money. 203 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,680 And then all of the downstream protocols from 1 inch. 204 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,440 So all of the different Dexes that they would source that 205 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,920 liquidity from are made a ton of fees, right, which then they 206 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,440 passed on to their token holders and their LP's. 207 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,960 So I think there's a lot of really big web free aligned 208 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:14,800 communities in the space currently like Telegram that you 209 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,240 know haven't kind of really switched on or connected their 210 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,840 user base fully to web free yet, but are in the process of doing 211 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,000 so. And when they start switching on 212 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,280 and connecting their users to a lot of the these key D5 213 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,240 primitives that we're in a talking about in terms of stable 214 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,520 coins, lending, borrowing, sport and Pub X's yield markets, 215 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,960 etcetera. That's going to drive a lot of a 216 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,560 revenue generation downstream to a lot of these different, you 217 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,880 know, protocols, whether it be aggregators or different, you 218 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,600 know, Dexes, etcetera, learning and borrowing markets that sit 219 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,800 sort of below the stack. And I'm very excited about it. 220 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,600 I think myself as a a bit of a DID Gen., right? 221 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:03,280 I'm spend a lot of time right on a lot of the front ends of a lot 222 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,120 of these apps. But the reality is that majority 223 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,000 of what I call, you know, normal or just normal people aren't 224 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,800 going to do that. And that over the coming years, 225 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,720 I think there's going to be sort of the UIUX problems that we've 226 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,880 been experiencing in web free so far. 227 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,440 A lot of that is going to disappear by extracting that 228 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,920 onto the application layer. You know, think about mini apps 229 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,160 within Telegram that allow their users to swap or lend them 230 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,680 borrow through the front end of the mini app by connecting the 231 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,440 mini app into different Daps that are built on top of top, 232 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,120 for instance. And if you look at, you know, 233 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,040 great communities like let's say Base that have built a really 234 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,560 good distribution sort of channel, they're able to 235 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,240 connect, you know, millions and millions and millions of users 236 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,320 really efficiently with different Daps and sort of 237 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,920 killer products and services that are built on top of Base. 238 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,280 So that's how I think the the space is going to develop. 239 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:11,920 But you know, I may be wrong. Now in terms of, you know, kind 240 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,800 of like where the yield comes from, right? 241 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,520 So I mean, you mentioned OK, stable coins, right? 242 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:23,880 So in the case of stable coins, it's basically, well, one thing 243 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,800 is OK, you give dollar to tether or to someone and then they do 244 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,160 something in the back end that produces yield and then, you 245 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,120 know, maybe they pass on some of that to users, spot them perps 246 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,320 taxes. I guess it's the the trading 247 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,760 fees, right, Lending and borrowing. 248 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:47,160 It's it's the fees people pay right, to to lend or to borrow 249 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,480 yield markets. I guess it's it's again kind of 250 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,040 trading fees in there. Do you feel like the yields in 251 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,440 Difi, are they sustainable? How do you think they will 252 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,240 change with time? That's a great question. 253 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:11,680 I think currently there just isn't that much or that many 254 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,200 users or kind of applications that are generating a ton of 255 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,760 fees. So a lot of these applications 256 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:24,160 are subsidizing their yields by issuing their own incentives in 257 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,840 the form of their governance token or Dow token that gives 258 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,480 their users a a vested upside in the protocol or the protocol 259 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,800 treasury. And it's really one of the best, 260 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,720 these cases of kind of web free that we can issue a token to our 261 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,200 community and give out a community of vested interest and 262 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,480 upside in the network that we're building in a way that we 263 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400 wouldn't be able to do so in let's say a Web 2 scenario. 264 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,800 I think the problem lies in the fact that many communities or, 265 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,480 or projects, they become addicted to these incentives and 266 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,319 there's free subsidy where they aren't really meant to be issued 267 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:06,839 in my opinion, over the long run. 268 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,119 Because you really want to build a, a ADAP or product or service 269 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,079 or protocol that provides value to your users or community 270 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,119 without having to, you know, pay a free subsidy over the long 271 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,520 run. So these subsidies or tokens 272 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,920 should only be issued in my opinion, over the short to 273 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,800 medium term to bootstrap a community and give you a bit of 274 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,320 time so that you can transition to a much more sustainable 275 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,760 business model. I think the problem that a lot 276 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,800 of these different applications or depths have faced is that 277 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,960 they weren't able to reduce their cost of capital faster 278 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,680 than the rate at which their emissions trailed off. 279 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,720 And it's, you know, very hard thing to do. 280 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,280 I think great examples of protocols that were able to do 281 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,040 this really, really well was are they uni swap? 282 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,840 You know, Athena are currently going through this process and 283 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,320 doing very well. You know, base they don't even 284 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,800 issue a token. They just have that good cost of 285 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,960 capital distribution and are, you know, seen as being a very 286 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,240 security first type chain that they're able to attract and 287 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,520 retain liquidity at a much lower cost of capital, which means 288 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,560 they don't need to subsidise that capital with their own 289 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,760 emissions, right. I think the the fees that are 290 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:34,360 generated on base or the the, you know, the token issuance on 291 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:37,800 all of these different apps that are built on top of base provide 292 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,840 ample sufficient kind of yield to, you know, continue sort of 293 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,600 attracting new users and liquidity to the shape. 294 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,280 So I'm not sure if that answers your question right, but. 295 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,920 Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that that seems to be kind of like 296 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,080 one of the fundamental things is now is like, oh, I'm, I'm 297 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,800 someone creates a new protocol and then they use their own 298 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,800 token and then, you know, liquidity comes they pay with 299 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:08,160 their own token and and then you you sort of selling the future 300 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,560 claim, right, on the success of that protocol. 301 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,960 But then, yeah, right. If, if the, if there's not 302 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,600 actual yield generated in the long run, right, that then 303 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,720 outweighs, yeah, the what they're spending, then it kind 304 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,200 of, it's bound to kind of implode at some point, right? 305 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,160 Because at some point then I guess you have just a download 306 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,120 pressure on the token, you know, because people sell the token 307 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,120 because they won't yield on whatever liquidity they're put 308 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,840 in. And, and then, you know, if, if 309 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,920 the token keeps going down, then the incentives kind of decrease 310 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,320 for the liquidity. And then people are like, oh, 311 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,000 let's go to the next protocol. Yeah. 312 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,960 Before you know it, you get caught in a death spiral. 313 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, we've seen it happen 314 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,440 over and over again and that really is one of the core 315 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:01,320 problems kind of within define crypto about trying to kind of 316 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,280 reduce your cost of capital faster than the emissions trail 317 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,680 off. It's a very hard thing to do 318 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,680 given that title is a distribution protocol. 319 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,240 And I've now spent a lot of time throughout the last 1218 months 320 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:22,040 in particular learning more about distribution and kind of 321 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,200 liquidity and how it flows through the space. 322 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,160 I've come to the conclusion that each protocol actually has a 323 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,920 different cost of capital and that depending on kind of 324 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,360 numerous variables, but the main 2 being kind of your access to 325 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,160 users or your distribution channels. 326 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,960 And the second thing is, you know, how safe is your protocol 327 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,760 perceived to be relative to others? 328 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,000 That these two variables have a really big impact in regards to 329 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,400 the amount of emissions that you need to kind of omit to LP's or 330 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,880 or Daps to essentially adopt whether it be deploy liquidity 331 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,800 within your ecosystem or protocol or or build on top of 332 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:09,360 it. And I think that's really been 333 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,040 apparent now that as the time goes on and on, and it's just 334 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,440 become much more competitive to compete on a ecosystem level, on 335 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,040 a protocol level and a DAP level. 336 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,440 That that a lot of these new ecosystems that, you know, have 337 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,120 a kind of a differentiator or a different idea. 338 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,200 And they want to kind of boot trap the community or, or 339 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,520 ecosystem around that are finding it very, very difficult 340 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,720 to kind of bootstrap this ecosystem from zero to 1. 341 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,120 Given that they need to bribe and pay a lot of these blue chip 342 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,000 Daps that are kind of, you know, trusted and and well loved in 343 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,880 the space to deploy into their ecosystem. 344 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,480 But for the Daps to do it, they will want a very large degree of 345 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,920 incentives assigned to them. And they also want to know that 346 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,320 the chains that they deploy onto have a lot of users, especially 347 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,040 new users that they can acquire. Right. 348 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,360 And then on the LP side, you have the same issue because you 349 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,000 need to now bribe the LP's with ever there are higher rates of 350 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,520 emissions to poured over liquidity to ecosystem to, you 351 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,240 know, obviously deploy that liquidity in the different apps. 352 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,560 And the reality is when your cost of capital is too high, you 353 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,800 end up just having to print emissions at a faster and faster 354 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,760 clip, which then again, create that cell pressure and that desk 355 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,040 spiral that you were and have just referred to. 356 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,320 So I think for, you know, myself and my LP's, we really 357 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,920 appreciate the fact that, you know, earning tokens or, or 358 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,680 yield in a token that's actually backed by a real user base or, 359 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,240 or a kind of a real business. And one thing that you said 360 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,040 which resonated with me is when you deploy liquidity in a 361 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,640 protocol and the vast majority of your emissions on the form of 362 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,520 the the Dow token or the governance token relative to the 363 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,920 underlying APR that's actually being generated by utilizing the 364 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,720 liquidity in in the way it's sort of supposed to be in Defy, 365 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,880 right? That is a big red flag. 366 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,080 And that in my mind means that the token is going to be dumped 367 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,080 pretty quickly and that the fundamental value or or the 368 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,480 fundamentals of the business of the protocol itself is, you 369 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,400 know, not really doesn't have a high probability of withstanding 370 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,360 the test of time. I'm curious if you look at the, 371 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:37,680 the size of the T fi economy compared with the the the 372 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,760 traditional financial system, you have a, you have an estimate 373 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,480 in terms of like what is the relative size of and it's 374 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,640 obviously very small, but how where are we if you put those in 375 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,280 relationship? It's a drop in the bucket. 376 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,440 I had a, you know, I work with a lot of the biggest institutions, 377 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,440 whether it be, you know, investment banks, asset 378 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,160 managers, wealth managers, private banks, hedge funds, even 379 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,920 the odd sovereign wealth fund here and there. 380 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,440 When I was working for that small financial media company in 381 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,040 London, you know, being a matchmaker between the buy and 382 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,920 the sell side. And you know, if you look at 383 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,400 institutions, not even the big ones like let's say a Black Rock 384 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,600 for instance, or a Vanguard, but even, you know, smaller sized 385 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,120 large institutions have just small capital assets on the 386 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,000 management than the entire crypto market. 387 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,160 And obviously the crypto market, the defy market accounts for a 388 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,720 very small percentage right now of the entire web free market. 389 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:48,000 So I think directionally speaking, maybe I'm biased, but 390 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,920 directionally speaking, I think the potential of Defy has just a 391 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,360 huge shoes Tam to grow into, given that you can just utilize 392 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:03,000 tokenized liquidity to a much higher degree and much more 393 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,040 optimally and efficiently, you know, in this new Internet of 394 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,240 money that we're building. And I think it's just a matter 395 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,840 of time once we reach a point of, I guess, no return when the 396 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,760 technology is. And the sort of D5 primitives 397 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,200 and use cases have been stress tested enough and built out 398 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,880 enough that the cost of capital is kind of at a level where it 399 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,680 will just kind of start sucking in a lot of the liquidity from 400 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,680 the trad 5 market. Just because you can utilize 401 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,080 your liquidity far more effectively and efficiently than 402 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,840 you could ever do in the traditional banking system, for 403 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,360 instance. So you think the the big 404 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:44,520 advantage of D5 is really that you can, you know, you can use 405 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,960 different protocols on top of each other, then tokenise it and 406 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,720 then basically use your kind of use your capital more 407 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,080 efficiently than what will be possible in the traditional 408 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,560 financial system? I mean, it's not even close, 409 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,320 right? So, you know, I've met quite a 410 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,440 few LP's during my time in, in, in crypto and in particular 411 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,520 Define yeah, some of the degenerates like flywheels that 412 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,360 people invent or come up with is is truly astounding where they 413 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,560 can in some cases rehypothecate the liquidity in up to 1015 414 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,480 different protocols at once and generate a yield on the same 415 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,280 underlying liquidity across all of these protocols 416 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,320 simultaneously. Obviously there's a a risk every 417 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,080 time you rehypothecate the liquidity in terms of the 418 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,880 underlying code base of the protocol that you're 419 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,480 rehypothecating across all the counterparties involved. 420 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,920 So it's not a decision or thing that I'd necessarily recommend 421 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,040 the average show to do. But but the point is, as the 422 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,120 infrastructure and these smart contracts become more and more 423 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,920 stress tested and battle tested, you're going to see more and 424 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,880 more protocols building on top of one another and really 425 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,200 building out these Defy Lego blocks that really become a core 426 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,280 fundamental part of, you know, this new, the infrastructure of 427 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,640 this new Internet of money. And I quite like the, you know, 428 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,840 idea of essentially having your liquidity in multiple different 429 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,760 protocols at once, generating your revenue where you can 430 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,440 essentially just ping your money around the Internet and the 431 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,600 money will continuously being deployed in real time to the 432 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,360 different protocols or use cases that can utilise that liquidity 433 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,440 to generate, you know, the most protocol fees or utilize that 434 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,720 liquidity most efficiently at that point in time. 435 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,480 Right. Because if you take like let's 436 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,440 say if you take the example of Sable coins, then I mean today, 437 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,840 right? If you use that in D5I mean it 438 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,640 seems to be very common, right, that people can generate 20% or 439 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,680 50% or like, you know, very high yields, you know, doing some of 440 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,040 these using different protocols, putting it in, which obviously 441 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,960 is extremely attractive, right? If if you're sort of in the 442 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,400 tratfi space and and OK, you can put it in treasuries and you're 443 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,680 obviously the risk here is, is lower, right, If you just buy 444 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,160 treasuries and you earn 5%. But then if you compare the, I 445 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,360 don't know, 5% versus maybe the 50% that you can earn in D5, 446 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,080 that's a massive delta, right? And, and I imagine the risk 447 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,560 isn't well, it, it seems to concentrate very, very well for 448 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:40,440 the additional risk that people are taking. 100% every time you 449 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,560 re hypothecate liquidity in D5, you really need to ask yourself, 450 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,920 are there rewards that I'm getting large enough or do they 451 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,840 justify the risk that I'm taking? 452 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:56,400 And whenever you find an, an opportunity, in theory that it's 453 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,080 paying you out, you know, a, a differential between the reward 454 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,880 that you're making and the risk that you're taking in that 455 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,840 situation, you should re hypothecate, assuming that you 456 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,680 know, you, you've avoid your liquidity across a diversified 457 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,880 set of strategies, because in the long run, you'll be making 458 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,920 or increasing what we call in like poker expected value, 459 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,040 right? That, that kind of move or play 460 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,720 will generate more value, you know, over an infinite amount of 461 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,320 or, or, or you just kind of removing the variance from the 462 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,520 situation. And now the hard part is 463 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,760 actually quantifying the risks. So it's so the easy part is to 464 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,600 find out roughly, you know, what your APR is going to be or, you 465 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,080 know, what are the types of tokens and incentives and yield 466 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,080 that you're generating. The hard part is, OK, if let's 467 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,840 say you find a strategy and you're generating 100%, that 468 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,280 could be a good strategy or that could be a bad strategy, right? 469 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,720 It has nothing to do with the amount of yield that you're 470 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,440 generating. It's all relative to the amount 471 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,600 of risk you're taking to generate that yield. 472 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,480 And the reality is that the vast majority of even, you know, 473 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,880 liquid funds or professional LP's don't really have a 474 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,440 sophisticated framework for risk in Web 3. 475 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,640 And a lot of people kind of rely on the due diligence or risk 476 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,320 assessments of, you know, very few counterparties in the space, 477 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,560 right? And we all know what can happen 478 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,400 will happen, right? Murphy's Law. 479 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,760 So you you'll kind of always reach a point whereby if too 480 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,920 many people rely on too few people doing the due diligence, 481 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,000 then, you know, that could create potentially some systemic 482 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,080 risks, right? I think Luna was a great 483 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,080 example, you know, of that, even though they were, you know, 484 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,880 granted some people that did point out and mention some of 485 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,280 the underlying flaws of the design of UST. 486 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,640 So I think where the edge really is, is in quantifying the risk, 487 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,040 because if you can quantify the risk, you can then find out 488 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,440 which opportunities relative to reward and risk ratio are the 489 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,600 best for you to consider re hypothecating your capital. 490 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,680 How how does one do that like the this risk quantification 491 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640 like what? What are are there frameworks or 492 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,160 what do you have to look for? Like how do you approach a 493 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,200 problem like that? Yeah, there isn't that much 494 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,040 openly available on the market today. 495 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,240 I'm currently working with Gonzalo, the Co founder of 496 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,720 Consensus Diligence to create a new framework, also with 497 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,800 Cheyenne from Creed. So, you know, we are frankly 498 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,880 having to do a lot of the legwork ourselves. 499 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,920 I know there's a couple of, you know, top liquid funds or you 500 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,920 know, very sophisticated LP's or treasury management 501 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,480 professionals that have developed their own due 502 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,640 diligence process or kind of risk models. 503 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:01,760 But I wouldn't say there's AI think the that part of the 504 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,280 market is still very nascent and isn't very developed. 505 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,080 So there isn't really a holistic or, or kind of bulletproof kind 506 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,320 of framework that is being adopted on the market today, 507 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,000 which is why we'd love to invite anybody to come and criticize 508 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,720 the risk framework that we've developed that we're going to 509 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,920 publish and, you know, share publicly with everyone kind of 510 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,520 like open sources in a way. And would love to hear some, you 511 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,640 know, candid feedback or criticisms like Essie, why are 512 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,480 you doing this? Like, you know, this could be 513 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,440 better done by adopting this, right? 514 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,160 Because ultimately we just want to kind of make sure that we can 515 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,560 reduce the risk as much as possible, right, by adopting a 516 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,400 better and better risk framework in terms of there's a bunch of 517 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,880 different things sort of on the financial side. 518 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,040 You have the, you know, different risk of, you know, the 519 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,040 strategies that you create, whether that be, you know, the 520 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,720 liquidation risk, IL risk, for instance. 521 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,840 Then you have the counterparty risk of all of the different 522 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,080 protocols or people or counterparties involved in the 523 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,760 strategy as well. And then on the technical level, 524 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,240 on or on the smart contract level, you have obviously the 525 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,800 risk associated with smart contracts being hacked or 526 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:25,680 drained or you know, even, you know, down to you know, how do 527 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,320 the team kind of manage the multi sigs of a say, for 528 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,560 instance, right or you know, the treasury that backs the 529 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,800 underlying token, right, that you're holding right. 530 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,800 So then you have real time monitoring, you have sort of 531 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,640 protect, prevent. I mean, again, it's probably 532 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,160 best to to ask like a thoroughbred auditor when it 533 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,880 comes to some of these things. But there's really a kind of a 534 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,840 whole round trip or of different security risk, financial risk, 535 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,120 counterparty risks, etcetera that you need to take into 536 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:00,040 account when you know developing this risk framework and and 537 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:07,440 doing your due diligence. So I'm curious, what, what do 538 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,920 you think are the main blockers? Because in the end, right, it 539 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,280 does look like it would, it's actually very attractive for 540 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,760 capital to move into D Phi because you know, you can earn 541 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,560 higher yields in D Phi than I think in, you know, probably 542 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,560 most things in traffic. But what what's, what sort of 543 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,080 what what needs to happen for, you know, D Phi to absorb, you 544 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,239 know, a lot more capital coming more from the traditional 545 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,280 financial space and you know, really starting into really 546 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,880 starting to eat into that market share. 547 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,639 That's a great question. So on the top level you have all 548 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:54,159 of the different like use cases or D5 primitives, right? 549 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,920 In other words, you can utilize your liquidity to a much higher 550 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,360 degree or much more profitably and efficiently by porting it 551 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,000 that over to the D5 space, right? 552 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,040 And the point that liquidity on the DAP layer itself. 553 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,280 So that's I guess one point. The second point I would say is 554 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,280 you have, you know, what's called the risk free return on 555 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,880 let's say dollars, which is the US Treasury yields, right? 556 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,760 And you also have a risk free return in Defy, which you know, 557 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,800 some people consider the native staking yield on that you 558 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,920 generate on Ethereum, right? Or the on stable coins, let's 559 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,760 say the, the yield that you would generate on RV. 560 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,760 Now you have a, what's very popular, you know, with the rise 561 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,720 of Athena is that a lot of people are essentially doing 562 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,160 this carry trade, right, where they're arbitraging the funding 563 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,480 rates on these perpetual exchanges. 564 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,080 So you know, it's, it's all relative, right? 565 00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,240 So if the risk free rate in B Fi is much higher than it is, let's 566 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:05,120 say in the tradfy world with the interest that these money market 567 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,760 accounts are paying out, you know from the treasury bills, 568 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,360 right, The larger that delta is, the bigger the pool of capital 569 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,480 from the Tradfy world into the DFI world. 570 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Now we had a situation in the bear market back in sort of late 571 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,480 2022-2023. Don't sort of quote me exactly 572 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,240 on the time, but there was a a inversion that took place where 573 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:34,120 actually the treasury yield was higher in Tradfi than it was in 574 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,680 DFI. So you had a lot of stable coins 575 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,080 and a lot of liquidity actually being pulled out of the space 576 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,960 given that you could generate a higher risk free return in 577 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,200 Tradfi. And This is why a lot of 578 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,360 protocols have started passing on the underlying treasury 579 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,800 backed yield to the stablecoin holders to kind of stem that 580 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,440 flow. So, so, yeah, so the TLDR is 581 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,000 that, you know, the in my opinion is the risk free return 582 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,480 and, and how you can also utilize your liquidity. 583 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,520 And the bigger that delta is, the greater the pool and 584 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,040 generally the more the floodgates open for capital to 585 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,200 kind of flow to where there's what I call like least friction. 586 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,920 And I think that's generally how it is sort of how I interpret 587 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,800 the financial markets to work, right? 588 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,400 Liquidity or capital just flows to where there's least friction, 589 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,120 and that capital can be utilized best. 590 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:35,600 One thing I'm curious about in, in on chain, right, you 591 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,840 basically you have a tremendous amount of transparency, right? 592 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,760 Like you can check the different wallets, you can check what 593 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,920 they're doing, you can see what's going on in each 594 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,560 protocol. Obviously, there's a lot of 595 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,400 value to that, right? Because you can understand 596 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,640 better what's going on, you can understand risk better, and it's 597 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,440 easier to build on top of other protocols. 598 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,720 I feel like in the past, people would often talk about, oh, we 599 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:08,400 need more privacy on chain and, you know, this is a big barrier 600 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:14,680 to maybe some investors or some more traditional players 601 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,040 participating in it. How do you view that? 602 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:24,720 Do you think DD5 will remain as transparent as it is and and 603 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,600 that's just sort of inherent and it's a good thing, or do you 604 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:33,880 think that privacy in D5 is going to become a bigger thing? 605 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,880 That's a great question. I think right now, because 606 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,360 there's been many initiatives in the past or protocols that I've 607 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,800 tried to tap into the narrative of privacy. 608 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,960 It's a, it's been a frankly a bit of a hard sell in the fact 609 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,760 that right now the most of the market doesn't really care 610 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:01,640 enough about privacy for these types of solutions to really 611 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,440 kind of take off in a big, big way. 612 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:11,080 Obviously, you have hackers or I guess sort of bad actors that 613 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,720 are kind of leveraging technologies like Tornado Cash, 614 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:20,440 for instance, to obfuscate the transaction history or the sort 615 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,640 of fun flows. But then you also have like 616 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:29,440 newer technologies like FHE, for instance, a good friend of mine, 617 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,120 she works for Phoenix that allow you to conduct confidential 618 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,640 transactions. Or you know, friends of mine at 619 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,440 Hinkle as well that actually provide a really good use case 620 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,800 and utility that allow institutions to deploy liquidity 621 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:52,080 in a legitimate way whilst having their activity across web 622 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,240 free, sort of being private and confidential. 623 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,480 Again, there just isn't at this point I think enough interest 624 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,960 from the what I call core web free crowd in these types of 625 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:10,280 solutions, but especially as you know more and more funds and 626 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560 financial institutions come into the space. 627 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,800 The incentives to adopt that technology is just going to grow 628 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,480 and grow and grow because for instance, let's say, you know, 629 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,400 I'm running my on chain strategy and I found a really good yield 630 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,680 source given that, you know, everyone can see my activity and 631 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,000 the strategy that I deploy on chain. 632 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,880 That will be, you know, kind of identified and copied very, very 633 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,480 quickly by other LP's in the market, which will then pile 634 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,920 into my strategy and then dilute my rewards. 635 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,880 And then before you know it, the alpha that I'm generating will 636 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,280 just evaporate. So there's a, so I think the 637 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,200 biggest factor really is the profit motive, right? 638 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,800 If there's a big enough motive for institutions to, you know, 639 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,000 adopt that technology in terms of actually like making money or 640 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,560 saving money, I think we'll see more and more people adopt that. 641 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,880 Because right now you can again go on chain and see what all of 642 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,720 the top liquid funds are doing. Like if you kind of know their 643 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,960 addresses or, or you can just kind of track addresses that 644 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,480 deploy their liquidity really sophisticated in a very 645 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,320 sophisticated manner, right? And then you can just kind of 646 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,440 copy them, which is quite nice or learn from them, right? 647 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,040 What I like to do is I'd say, oh, you know, this dress is 648 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,080 doing this. I like this, but actually in 649 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,720 this case I'll probably do this and this not because you know, 650 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,280 I'm better than them or what not just because I have a different 651 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,480 sort of risk profile or or preference or I might have 652 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,160 different digital assets in relation to them. 653 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,840 What's missing in DFAI now? Do you feel like there's some 654 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:49,720 sort of, you know, primitives or protocols or, you know, that you 655 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,200 think would be really important and you know, would be super 656 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:59,320 helpful that don't exist yet? That's I mean. 657 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,640 I'm biased, right? Because I think like a 658 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,160 liquidity, a distribution protocol is missing, which is 659 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,840 why I'm kind of yeah. We'll get to that. 660 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,240 Yeah, let's get to that after this question. 661 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:14,600 But in in, in terms of other stuff, I think that, you know, 662 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,560 the more liquidity the better. So there are some really 663 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:23,440 interesting kind of use cases that haven't really been fully 664 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:29,840 developed yet, you know, or even existing use cases that just it 665 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,920 would be nicer to have more of a liquid market or more efficient 666 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,000 market given that a lot of these sort of use cases are kind of 667 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,240 starting to emerge. Like for instance, some of my 668 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:44,080 friends that derive it's just a, a options on chain options 669 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,680 marketplace. So, you know, 12 months ago, 18 670 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,400 months ago, you really couldn't do much in terms of on chain 671 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,120 options. Sure. 672 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,280 There was, you know, a couple of different sort of early 673 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,840 protocols that were providing it, but really the markets were 674 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,480 very liquid. Now derive has started to gain a 675 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,280 bit more traction and the more liquidity they get the, you 676 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,160 know, essentially the now for the first time you can use 677 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,400 options to within let's say a delta neutral strategy, right Or 678 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,320 you can use on chain options in a permissionless way, which, you 679 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,560 know, adds a lot of utility to the DFI ecosystem as a whole. 680 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:29,720 Then yeah, in terms of I guess other use cases, I think the use 681 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:34,160 case isn't really the issue. I think, you know, ad Dexes, bot 682 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,600 Dexes learning and boring. I mean there are quite a few 683 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,560 killer applications in D5 already. 684 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,680 I think where the friction lies is on the UIUX layer. 685 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,320 And This is why I believe that for a lot of the kind of just 686 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,440 normal people out there, they're, they're not going to be 687 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,000 willing to go onto the front end of a lot of these D5 Daps. 688 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,320 And, you know, actually, you know, approve a transaction and 689 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,760 then submit a transaction like we would do when we interact 690 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,720 directly with smart contracts or the UIUX on the DAP layer. 691 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:08,080 I think that's going to be abstracted away to the 692 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,880 application layer where existing popular applications, you know, 693 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,360 whether it be on on Telegram or you know, on your iPhone or 694 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,880 whatever the case may be, will connect directly into the 695 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,880 different dabs. And then through the front end 696 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,000 on the application, they allow their users to swap, lend and 697 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,040 borrow and essentially kind of provide all of these key D5 698 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,720 primitives and use cases. Yeah, directly into these 699 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,120 different depths, our front end application. 700 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:38,920 Sorry. Yeah. 701 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,680 I mean, I think one of the big challenges here is also right. 702 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,360 If you think of a lot of TC fair strategies where like, oh, you 703 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,200 do this and then you get a token and you put it somewhere else 704 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,880 and you get another thing. It's it's pretty complicated and 705 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:57,720 it's hard for people to do that. So I think what obviously would 706 00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:01,360 be very attractive, I think for a lot of users is if it's just, 707 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,760 I can just buy, I don't know, deposit my tokens into some 708 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,360 vault or I just buy a token that's kind of like, you know, 709 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,560 then on the back end does all of that stuff. 710 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,680 But then of course, I think the big challenge there is, well, 711 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,760 there is like some obviously there's like risk going on 712 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:26,560 underneath and like, how do then these people deal with that 713 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,640 risk, right? If they don't understand really, 714 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,400 I mean, it's, it's hard enough to understand the risk if you 715 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,560 actually do those things. But then if it's fully 716 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,600 abstracted, then I think that's, you know, it's also it's a 717 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,720 tricky 1 I think. Oh for sure. 718 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,600 But I mean, this happens in trad FIRE as well. 719 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,920 In during the financial crisis of 2008, a lot of these banks 720 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:52,880 were creating these toxic essentially securities, right, 721 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,520 or mortgage-backed securities when they were just packaging a 722 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,920 bunch of these, you know, ninja loans together, like from 723 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:03,360 essentially lending people with no jobs, no income and no asset, 724 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:04,960 right? And they were like bundling them 725 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,120 up in the form of a factual debt position or CDO. 726 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,800 And then, you know, they didn't really care how they constructed 727 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,520 the the asset because it was their business just to sell it 728 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,520 so that the liability would be on the book of someone else's 729 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,000 balance sheet, right? The problem was obviously as the 730 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,560 music stopped, they got caught with their pants down holding 731 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,760 all these toxic assets. But yeah, we we don't need to 732 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,120 sort of go off on the tangent there. 733 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,200 But but yeah, that kind of happens in in traditional 734 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,000 worlds. And, and actually there's been 735 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,280 kind of much bigger blow UPS, right, Given of the the history 736 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,320 of the traditional financial market over web free. 737 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,840 But to sort of go back to your point, I think, you know, a lot 738 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,560 of these things are quite complicated in terms of how a 739 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,680 lot of these strategies are, you know, the different moving parts 740 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,000 that they're sort of made-up of and the way they interconnect 741 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,240 with one another under the hood. But all you need to do is you 742 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,000 just need to put a shiny token wrap around it, you know, and a 743 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,760 nice sort of meme and, you know, and then people like, you know, 744 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,680 kind of buy it, right? So. 745 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,720 So, yeah, I mean, there's a obviously, you know, like I was 746 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,880 mentioning sort of prior in, in in our conversation, there's 747 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,040 obviously a lot of risk in the space and people, even 748 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,160 professionals find it very, very hard to quantify. 749 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,800 So what feels sometimes like a good move can, you know, be 750 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,320 obviously terrible. But I think a great example 751 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,560 actually of a really interesting kind of strategy is what you're 752 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,240 doing with the stake wise war, right? 753 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,760 When you're allowing people to essentially deposit a, you know, 754 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:44,880 OS ETH as collateral that generates, you know, the native 755 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,000 staking yield and then borrow against that collateral on RV at 756 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,920 a lower interest rate, right? And then kind of leverage Loopid 757 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:57,360 obviously geared towards the individual risk reference and 758 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,320 exposure of BLP, right? And you know, have a, you know, 759 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,520 to tokenise that I think makes a lot of sense because now for 760 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,840 people that are willing to take sort of a higher risk, right, 761 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,320 they can now leverage that leverage looping strategy as 762 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,480 collateral again, sort of to leverage, you know, and, and 763 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,920 deposit or kind of utilize within the sort of wider web 764 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,120 free or DFI ecosystem, right? And as long as the risks are 765 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,520 sort of well understood or communicated, like I see no 766 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,840 problem with that, right? People should be able to, you 767 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,920 know, kind of deploy their liquidity or take on risks, 768 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,720 right? Yeah. 769 00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:43,520 So just briefly for listeners. So at course one we use a lot is 770 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,480 a protocol called Stake Wise and we have a Eve staking bolt and 771 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:52,680 that now allows yeah, this what I see mentioned, right, 772 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,520 Basically staking the Eve and then meeting liquid staking acid 773 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,160 OS Eve and then putting that into RV borrowing Eve and then 774 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,840 looping this. And then you can you can 775 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,440 generate with that on on Ethereum. 776 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,320 I think right now it's around 7%. 777 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,840 It's obviously a much higher than the the base staking rate. 778 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,400 So yeah, people are interested in that. 779 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,320 Just go to the Stake wise website and then you'll see the 780 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,120 course one wall there. Let's talk about turtle. 781 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:25,160 So how? What's the Genesis story of 782 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,880 Turtle? Yes, it's a, It's a pretty long 783 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,440 1. So I, I was working for one of 784 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,680 the largest GPU miners in the space as as a director of Define 785 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,840 in 2021. I was really enjoyed my time 786 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:46,120 there. And you know, back in 2021, I 787 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,280 was, I guess inadvertently, I started building a bit of a 788 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,360 network of, you know, LP's just being in the trenches and all 789 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,320 these discords, coming across some really clever LP's and, you 790 00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,680 know, sharing ideas and getting second opinions on my strategies 791 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,680 or vice versa, sharing my opinions on other friends of 792 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,520 mine strategies. And I was always looking to how 793 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,720 can I, you know, generate a better upside or increase the 794 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,560 rewards that I was generating whilst reducing my risks. 795 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,560 And in 2021, I came across a lot of, you know, I started noticing 796 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,640 that a lot of protocols were starting to engage in what I 797 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,000 call these sort of backroom deals. 798 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,240 And that were happening behind closed doors where they were 799 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:35,080 offering LP's a certain amount of additional private incentives 800 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:39,240 that they weren't extending sort of publicly to the market for 801 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,960 different liquid funds or LP's that would commit a certain 802 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,120 amount of liquidity over a certain period of time to help 803 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,960 bootstrap, adapt. And there's nothing wrong with 804 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,960 that, right? So for instance, imagine using 805 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,640 an exchange or lending a boring market. 806 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,720 But when you buy and sell, there's a huge spread, right? 807 00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:59,280 And it's very liquid and you can't really buy and sell much, 808 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,480 right? Because there's just not much 809 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,440 liquidity in the order. But well, same with sort of 810 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,600 lending and borrowing, right? There's just you can't borrow 811 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,880 much. And if you do borrow much, the 812 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,760 APY starts shooting up because again, there's not much 813 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,640 liquidity. So you actually need a certain 814 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:17,560 amount of liquidity within a DAT so that it operates at a really 815 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,720 effective utilization rate. And, and when I noticed these 816 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:26,000 deals were occurring, I said, you know, I wanted to kind of 817 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,240 look into it to see if I can essentially gather deal flow 818 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,040 that, you know, other friends of mine could be potentially 819 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,800 interested and obviously myself as well. 820 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:41,240 And then on the downside, so on the auditing side, a friend of 821 00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:45,040 mine set up Omniscia in early 2021. 822 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,800 It's a smart contract auditing firm. 823 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,440 I believe they've done over 1000 plus audits and they asked me to 824 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,760 join as a part time CFO. So I, I did some, you know, high 825 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,120 level BD for them. I onboarded, you know, some of 826 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,960 their biggest clients, but they'd also outsource on a case 827 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,960 by case basis, you know, really fun jobs, frankly, sometimes we 828 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,160 had a, you know, crypto hedge fund that wanted to do a risk 829 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,640 assessment or well, a second opinion on a strategy or maybe 830 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,280 some LP engagements or just tokenomic modelling protocol 831 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,840 design. And yeah, so I, I learnt a lot 832 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,920 also working with some really, really talented hackers inside 833 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,560 of Omniscia as well as just more generally within the auditing 834 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,280 industry. And one of the best things there 835 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:35,880 was trying to learn to quantify risk also on a more technical 836 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,680 level, given that I'm not a developer by truth. 837 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,040 And so, so, so the idea of Turtle kind of sprung out of 838 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,720 that, given that now I had a really good insight into how I 839 00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:53,400 could quantify risk better or, you know, get auditors within my 840 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,000 network to audit certain strategies before, you know, 841 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,040 different LP's would deploy into these strategies, right. 842 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:06,560 The problem with that model was that, you know, auditing is 843 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,120 very, very expensive, especially if you're not work with the best 844 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,120 guys. But you really do want to work 845 00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,080 with the best auditors because if you don't, then the best it 846 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,840 is or hackers are going to hack you, right? 847 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:20,040 So the problem was that if you deploy a small amount of 848 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,640 capital, you need to absorb the security cost over a small 849 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,360 amount of capital. So if you're only deploying 850 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,000 let's say $100,000 and you're paying, you know, 10K to do your 851 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,800 due diligence, you're already down 10% on your principal, 852 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,200 which makes the strategy just not economical. 853 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:41,960 So really the idea of TUDDLE was how can I leverage the 854 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,880 collective liquidity and bargaining power of numerous 855 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:50,240 LP's and liquid funds at the same time to negotiate better, 856 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,080 you know, deal and sort of incentives or upsides on behalf 857 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:55,880 of, you know, the entire community. 858 00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,080 While also being able to spread the cost of security over a much 859 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,520 larger subset of capital. So that I wouldn't need to pass 860 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,800 on the cost of security to my LP's, but I would still be able 861 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,880 to pass on the benefits of doing a extensive risk assessment or 862 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,000 kind of a light audit, quote UN quote. 863 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,560 So again, boosting the upside of my LP's and decreasing the 864 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,560 downside risk. So in March of this year, I 865 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,400 decided to step down from on issue just to kind of give it a 866 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,720 go. And, and really it was more of a 867 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,640 experiment at first, just launched an MVP very, very 868 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,440 quickly. And I think the MVP kind of 869 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,920 proved sort of proved that there was a lot of demand for 870 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,400 something like this. The way I went about it is 871 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,760 rather than developing a set of smart contracts that would route 872 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,120 the liquidity of all the LP's into and then deploy it like a 873 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,440 traditional, you know, Volt or like a traditional protocol on 874 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,480 top of it. I wanted to, I didn't want to 875 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:04,200 have the, I guess risk or, or like legal liabilities, 876 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,840 compliance liabilities and also kind of create like a bit of a 877 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,480 honeypot to sort of adopt A structure like this. 878 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:17,520 So what I did was I created a set of APIs that would track the 879 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,560 positions of all of my LP's across different chains. 880 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,840 That's and protocols. And if they interacted with any 881 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,400 of the partner protocols that had a, a kind of a liquidity 882 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:33,160 offering in place that the Turtle Dow would start issuing 883 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:37,560 rewards directly to these addresses of Elps of ours that 884 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,080 essentially conducted those activities that our partners 885 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,920 deem valuable enough to start paying the Dow for. 886 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,200 And the way it works is you just connect your wallet to Turtle 887 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,160 dot Club. You are prompted to sign an on 888 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,000 chain message. There's no risk in signing this 889 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,600 on chain message. It's not like an approval 890 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,160 transaction or transfer transaction. 891 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,840 We don't, you know, siphon off any of your existing rewards. 892 00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,320 You know, we literally can't do that. 893 00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:04,040 We can't get, you know, hacked ourselves or, or the protocol 894 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:08,360 can't get hacked in that sense. So it's a a much safer way for 895 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,000 us to essentially track the activity of all of our users 896 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,840 and, and pay them additional boosts from the partner 897 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,080 protocols that we work with. On the upside and then on the 898 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,680 downside, we're starting to do more and more risk assessments 899 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,160 and spending more and more money on doing due diligence on 900 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:27,800 protocols before we integrate with them. 901 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,640 I wouldn't say that, you know, LP's should just rely on our due 902 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:37,080 diligence, but the idea is that as time goes on, we just want to 903 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,400 spend more and more time, you know, doing these risk 904 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,320 assessments due diligence. And, you know, hopefully 905 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,400 eventually we'll get to the point where we're conducting 906 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,080 full audits on all of the different protocols that we work 907 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,000 with. And this way we can again, pass 908 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,520 on greater rewards to our communities while, you know, 909 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,400 trying to take out or reduce the risk that they're being exposed 910 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,560 to. So that was title V1. 911 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,600 That worked pretty good. We have around 300,000 wallets, 912 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,600 give or take, that have signed up to turtle. 913 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,920 We generated again depending on the oil price, all coin prices 914 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,200 because sort of they've gone up or down quite a lot, but between 915 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,640 5:00 to 8-9 mil in contributions to the Dow. 916 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:25,400 However, V2 is kind of, we're now evolving from a pure 917 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,280 liquidity protocol that monetizes just on chain 918 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,760 activities in terms of moving liquidity to a distribution 919 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,320 protocol, which what is a distribution protocol? 920 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:41,200 It means that rather than just limiting our, you know, the part 921 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,920 of protocols that we work with that are willing to sort of pay 922 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,960 to tap into distribution, right? Because they want to, you know, 923 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,840 get users to use that. The Apple platform. 924 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:55,560 Now we allow them to plug into the user bases of the different 925 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,960 distribution partners that allow plugging into Turtle and 926 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,400 building different communities or networks or porting over 927 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,680 existing communities and networks into the Turtle 928 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,840 distribution protocol. And this enables quite a few 929 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,120 very interesting things. You know, imagine you, you have 930 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,200 a web free wallet, right? And you have a lot of multi 931 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,440 active users. By partnering with Turtle as a 932 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,560 distribution partner, you can monetize the activity of all of 933 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,800 your users across all of the different partner protocols of 934 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,480 ours that want to sort of plug into and pay for that 935 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,960 distribution. And we can do it in a way 936 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,960 without exposing any of the users to any additional risks 937 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,160 and smart contracts. And then we can then accrue that 938 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,240 extra value that we're generating to both the 939 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,600 distribution partner and their users, right. 940 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,680 And I think this is a really nice way to monetize your 941 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:51,160 existing user base whilst also accruing more value to them and 942 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,160 providing more utility to without again, exposing them to 943 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,880 any additional risks. So yeah, we've, you know, we're 944 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,440 making that pivot now to V2. So yeah, hopefully become a bit 945 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,440 of a one stop shop or essentially allow our clients to 946 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,920 tap into a much larger base of different distributors as well. 947 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:17,120 So to to walk through an example here, so that would be let's say 948 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:22,360 you go to some wallet and then the wallet says, OK, we want to 949 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:27,240 participate in this. Then the wallet would kind of 950 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:32,760 register all the wallet addresses with Turtle and then 951 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,480 and then kind of like surface to the users like, hey, there's 952 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:43,360 this, you know, special program you use a protocol A and you're 953 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:49,560 going to earn, you know, a little bit additional yield that 954 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:51,640 you guys negotiated with the protocol. 955 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,800 And then some additional yield goes to the users. 956 00:59:55,280 --> 01:00:00,600 Some goes to the wallet maybe, and then some goes to a turtle 957 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,080 doll, something like that. Correct. 958 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,360 So there's I guess two parts to this. 959 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,840 And the V2 you have like the signing up to Turtle. 960 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,840 So if you as a distributor kind of promote Turtle on your front 961 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,280 end and and get your users to sign up, when they sign up, they 962 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,760 use essentially your referral code and and as a result that 963 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,560 user is assigned to your community that is kind of built 964 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,600 on top of Turtle. That means that now from then 965 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,640 on, from the point at which the user signs up to Turtle, any 966 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:40,360 activity that they do current or sort of current of in future on 967 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,640 any of the Turtle partner protocols, they'll start 968 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,360 accruing additional value. And as a result, whether it be 969 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,160 Turtle, the Turtle token holder, the distributor and the user 970 01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,000 that generates that activity will accrue an additional value. 971 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,960 So that's kind of one part. The second part is we're in the 972 01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:02,600 process of developing a plug in that should, should be ready 973 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:03,920 sort of sooner rather than later. 974 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:09,040 And that will allow every distributor that we work with to 975 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,400 essentially spin up their own, what we call earn page on their 976 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,760 front end where they can select all of the different current 977 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,040 deals or integrations that we have in place. 978 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,240 They can kind of select which ones are aligned with their 979 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,920 community. Potentially this one is too 980 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:25,960 risky, so they don't want to sort of show it on their front 981 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,080 end or promote it, or this one is of a competitor, so they 982 01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,400 don't obviously want to promote that. 983 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,320 But they can kind of cuss in a very customizable way, 984 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,640 essentially curate their own list of different deals on their 985 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:40,560 front end. And then whenever user 986 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,160 essentially deploys liquidity through their front end, not 987 01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,800 only can they sort of retain the kind of control or retention of 988 01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:53,520 their users, but they'll also be able to, you know, monetize when 989 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,560 their users deploy liquidity into these different protocols. 990 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,480 And more importantly, actually provide their users with some 991 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,800 really, really competitive and interesting, you know, offerings 992 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,720 in the market in terms of being able to utilize their liquidity 993 01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:12,280 in interesting ways by deploying it directly and kind of, yeah, 994 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,720 like a sheet of some of the most competitive deals in the space. 995 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,480 I think one of the challenges still is, right, like, OK, you 996 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,200 have to choose these different strategies, figuring out which 997 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:29,360 one maybe runs for some time. I know you were saying before 998 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,200 like you don't when you started, you know, you didn't want to do 999 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:37,400 the kind of vault thing, but I'm sure this is still something 1000 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,040 that would that would be quite significant amount of demand, 1001 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,080 right? If if like, you know, users can 1002 01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,600 just say, OK, I'm going to put stable coins into, you know, 1003 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,800 Turtle Vault and then I don't know, maybe the doll, there's 1004 01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:55,040 some sort of process where, you know, different strategies are 1005 01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,640 created and it says, OK, I'm going to deploy it into that. 1006 01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:00,680 And then maybe it's something else in the future. 1007 01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:08,360 Is that a direction you think you want to go in as well or or 1008 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:14,480 that's kind of like a different something that doesn't align 1009 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,920 with your vision for Turtle? You know, that's a great 1010 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:19,920 question. So on the base layer of the 1011 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,480 protocol, you know, I don't want there to be any smart contracts 1012 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,320 meaning tell us a trustless protocol, right? 1013 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:30,240 We we can't get hacked and we can't rob our users saying that 1014 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,320 it's clear that the yield market changes all the time, right? 1015 01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:39,200 And you know, what was a nice yield source yesterday is no 1016 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,200 more. And a new yield source browsers 1017 01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,600 like sprouts up, right? And as a result, you 1018 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,120 continuously, if you want to generate the best risk adjusted 1019 01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,720 returns, you're kind of forced to move your liquidity 1020 01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,520 continuously throughout the space to try and move that 1021 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,080 liquidity closer to the alpha source, right? 1022 01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,360 As the alpha source kind of moves around. 1023 01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:01,360 And it's clear that because of the UIUX and a bunch of other 1024 01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,920 stuff, the average, you know, user or even very sophisticated 1025 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:09,160 users, they just don't have the time or just don't want to kind 1026 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,080 of manage that whole process manually. 1027 01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,560 They actually like the idea of deploying liquidity in a vault 1028 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,960 that automates that whole process for them. 1029 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,040 And there's just a lot of great vault providers now, 1030 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,200 infrastructure providers, for instance, total, we just 1031 01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,880 partnered up with veda dot ET by TBL. 1032 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,440 They have the most liquidity in their vaults. 1033 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,800 And yeah, there's just like a lot of really great builders in 1034 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:36,600 the space that have just created. 1035 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,960 Yeah, great. Like, you know, nice vaults and 1036 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,720 and they've, you know, made the whole user experience much 1037 01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:44,760 better for the mass market in my opinion. 1038 01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:46,960 So I'm not against false. I think they're great. 1039 01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,720 I just again, just in the first iteration of Turtle, I I didn't 1040 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,200 want to take any kind of custodial risk for legal or 1041 01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,600 compliance reasons, but also, you know, why would I would want 1042 01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,120 to kind of control the liquidity of my users if I don't have to, 1043 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,840 right. But I think after obviously kind 1044 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,680 of working on Turtle for like 11 months now, it's clear to me 1045 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,280 that many of my, you know, friends or LP's clients have, 1046 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,080 you know, been asking us to do this for quite some time. 1047 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:22,200 So we're planning to launch a like our first vault in tandem 1048 01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,000 with our first ecosystem bootstrapping campaign with TAC 1049 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,160 dot build later this month. So really, really excited about 1050 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,240 that. The way I'm structuring the 1051 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:36,320 vaults is slightly different in the sense that yes, it's going 1052 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,760 to be on the turtle front end, right. 1053 01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,240 But we're not actually going to use any of our in smart 1054 01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:42,680 contracts. So we're going to piggyback off 1055 01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,000 the vault infrastructure that Vader dot Tech created. 1056 01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,240 So all of our vaults will be Vader dot tech vaults. 1057 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,880 In terms of curation, for legal reasons, according to my 1058 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,640 lawyers, I'm I'm not allowed to curate strategies unfortunately. 1059 01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,000 So I need to work with external curators. 1060 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:03,800 So we'll be working with RE7 on the theorem side, Tuliper 1061 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,600 Capital on the BTC side and Edge Capital on the stable side. 1062 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,560 So there will be the ones, you know, actually kind of signing 1063 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,440 off on these strategies and deploying the underlying 1064 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,720 liquidity through default infrastructure provider. 1065 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:22,240 However, given the risk free framework that I developed with 1066 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,400 Gonzalo and Cheyenne, the idea is that we want to conduct, you 1067 01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:31,800 know, very, you know, thorough risk assessments on every 1068 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,480 strategy and protocol that we plug into the vault with the 1069 01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:38,560 intention obviously of trying to reduce that risk as much as 1070 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,880 possible. I want to actually keep the 1071 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,600 vault in terms of risk adjusted rewards very high obviously. 1072 01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,640 But the underlying strategies, I don't want to, you know, kind of 1073 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,920 expose our LP's to too much risk, but we are going to start 1074 01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,880 developing a secondary market for the receipt tokens of the 1075 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,560 vault so that you can, you know, start generating really good 1076 01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:02,280 risk adjusted yield on your underlying Ethereum deposits, 1077 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,360 Bitcoin stablecoin deposits. And then for those LP's that you 1078 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,400 know, want to go up the risk curve and leverage their receipt 1079 01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,960 token of the vault as collateral and let's say a Morpho or Oiler 1080 01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,120 or you know, in Curve to generate some additional trading 1081 01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:20,760 fees can do that. And as a result, then the LP's 1082 01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:24,560 can kind of create different strategies or flywheels are 1083 01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,840 geared towards their preferences and their risk profiles. 1084 01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,880 Cool, cool. Anything else you want to share 1085 01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,040 about what's coming up for a turtle? 1086 01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:38,600 Yeah, we've been working on a lot of different things. 1087 01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,320 It feels like I've aged about five years and over the last 11 1088 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,200 months. It was meant to be a kind of a 1089 01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,120 bit of a hobby to be honest, more of an experiment that has 1090 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,360 sort of taken on a life of its own. 1091 01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:57,440 And before you know it, I'm, yeah, working a bit more than I 1092 01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,200 have liked or intended to. But it's been a really enjoyable 1093 01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,960 journey. I've got to meet a very, you 1094 01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,560 know, a ton of very, very clever people in the space that I've 1095 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,520 learnt a lot from, including yourself, Brian. 1096 01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,680 So, you know, at the same time enjoyed it a lot. 1097 01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:16,040 We will be the, the title team will be at East Denver in full 1098 01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,040 force. So if you're out and about or if 1099 01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,479 you're intending to come to East Denver, yeah, definitely reach 1100 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,640 out. Would love to meet in person. 1101 01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:29,279 But yeah, in terms of a couple of other things, yeah, like I 1102 01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:31,640 kind of touched upon, we're developing a lot of different 1103 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:35,279 sort of products and services and we're porting over to our 1104 01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:39,760 V2, redesigning the website, launching the vaults, doing an 1105 01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,520 ecosystem bootrapping campaign with TAP, which is really, 1106 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:46,200 really interested. We are also, you know, very, 1107 01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:48,600 very close with the linear teaming ecosystem. 1108 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,760 And again, I can't mention too much but but yeah, a lot of 1109 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,479 people have been asking me about a token. 1110 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:59,399 So yeah, they should look for a couple of announcements with the 1111 01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,279 linear team about that. Cool. 1112 01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:05,720 Well, thank you so much for coming on AC Really enjoyed the 1113 01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:07,640 conversation. I'm super excited about what you 1114 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:11,640 guys are building and yeah, excited for Define General and 1115 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,680 and I think that this sort of liquidity layer that you're 1116 01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:16,439 building, which I think is super useful. 1117 01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,080 So thank you so much for coming on. 1118 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,160 Thank you for having me Brian. Take care everyone, all the 1119 01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:22,479 best.