1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,920 This is Epicentre episode 538 with guest Jasper de Hoyer. 2 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,960 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,640 technologies, projects and people driving decentralisation 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,760 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane and today I'm 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,960 speaking with Jasper de Hoyer. He's the CTO and Co Founder of 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,520 SATA Protocol. And SATA is a sort of universal 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,280 Oracle protocol. So looking forward to getting 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,960 into that. Before we start talking with 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,280 Jasper, I just would like to briefly tell you about our 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,080 sponsors this week. This episode is brought to you 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,760 by Gnosis. 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You can even offer high yield 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,920 staking to your own customers using their API. 39 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,040 Your assets always remain in your custody so you can have 40 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,560 complete Peace of Mind. Start staking today at Chorus 41 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,960 .1. All right. 42 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,720 Cool. Thanks so much for coming on 43 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:46,720 Jasper. It's great. 44 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,720 It's great to to have you here. Thank you for having me, Brian. 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,400 Super excited to be here. Yeah, like, tell us maybe first 46 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,360 of all, how did you get into crypto and how did that sort of 47 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,000 how did that road lead you to say them? 48 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,240 It's a fun story. So I think I bought my first 49 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,840 crypto just purely as a speculator. 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,120 Some in like my first first year of college, I think in 2016 or 51 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,720 second year and I ended up dropping out of college to start 52 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,840 this company that was doing data analytics on mostly Facebook 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,520 data and me and two friends did it. 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,640 We ended up getting Aqua hired, but we got increasingly 55 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:35,440 frustrated with the way Facebook managed API access. 56 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,720 So instead of being able to like innovate on the product that we 57 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,040 were building, we were constantly just like running 58 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,640 around with duct like metaphorical duct tape fixing 59 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,320 like problems because of them, essentially rug pooling, API 60 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,280 access to certain endpoints etcetera. 61 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,760 So it was super hard to build a sustainable like business that 62 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,960 was able to innovate and instead you were just like fixing the, 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,840 the, the product that we had. That really sort of stifles 64 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,880 innovation from third party developers. 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,240 And that's what got me more interested in like the crypto 66 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,960 space because I sort of like bought the script. 67 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,800 I kept like an eye on the market and then as soon as I the the, 68 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,800 the moment I've clicked was sort of like seeing smart contracts 69 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,880 as immutable API interfaces. So the idea that you always know 70 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,840 that this data will be accessible and you can sort of 71 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:28,480 like as a third party developer have this permissionless 72 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,560 composability to build third party applications on existing 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,600 infrastructure. The way that empowers developers 74 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,040 is what really really sort of like what's the aha moment for 75 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,640 me. So I I dove into the space, had 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,960 a programming background, taught myself Solidity, did some 77 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,760 consulting, ended up doing sort of like independent research 78 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,880 funded by the Etherium Foundation with a with a few 79 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,480 other people. We were researching Plasma which 80 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,280 turned into roll ups. So we were trying to build ETH L 81 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,480 twos. That was really cool, learned a 82 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,280 lot, surrounded myself with smart people and that was the 83 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,840 thing that sort of like kept me in in the beginning because I 84 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:13,560 joined like full time back in late 2017, early 2018, like 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,800 right before like super brutal bear market. 86 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,400 But the sort of like the the level of intellect and like the 87 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,840 the people that were in the space was was so like magnetic 88 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:25,680 to me. It was such a it was such a 89 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,240 pleasure to work in such a young industry where everybody was 90 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,280 hungry and had a mission. That's really that that that's 91 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,240 what's really got me going next to sort of like the initial sort 92 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:39,480 of like interest into into smart contracts ended up meeting my Co 93 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,280 founder at a hackathon in 2018. We started building products 94 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:47,320 into space and yeah that's that's that's how I rolled into 95 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,680 it. Cool, thanks so much. 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:57,160 And then so with SATA protocol, what's what is the vision for 97 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,240 SATA? So how I describe set up is sort 98 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:07,000 of like as a as a as a layer for data that should be accessible 99 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,920 to any developer, right. So if you look at sort of like 100 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:17,400 the infrastructure cycle across crypto starting from the 101 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,280 beginning is you have Bitcoin as sort of like this application 102 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:25,480 specific L1, right. It just does accounting value 103 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,360 transfer, that's essentially what it does. 104 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,760 And then Ethereum popping up and allowing developers to build 105 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,120 sort of like arbitrary business logic in the form of smart 106 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,640 contracts that then have this composability and people built 107 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,280 like a suite of different products on. 108 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:46,320 And when Ethereum was launching, like nobody knew what the use 109 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,960 cases would be that actually got get traction. 110 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:50,760 That's sort of like the beauty of it. 111 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,200 The beauty of it was that anybody could come in to deploy 112 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,040 a smart contract and then any other person could interact with 113 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,600 it, right? And I think that that sort of 114 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,920 like permission less creation and permission less access is 115 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,600 what created this giant network effect of what became crypto. 116 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,560 And we're not seeing that with a lot of the infrastructure today. 117 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,120 So a lot of the infrastructure providers that are very 118 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 necessary, such as data infrastructure like Oracle's for 119 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,920 example, or bridges, they still act as sort of like king makers 120 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,840 and gatekeepers, right? Like you have these start-ups or 121 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,280 or larger companies that essentially you need to prove to 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,640 them that you're worthy of deploying to your chain or like 123 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,280 allowing access to like a new feed or allowing allowing you to 124 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,720 access their data from from a new environment. 125 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,720 And it's all has to do with sort of like technological trade-offs 126 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,040 that were made and that were necessary at the time because a 127 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,640 lot of these projects were built when there was only one chain. 128 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,120 And with Sarah, the goal is truly to build like this entry 129 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,560 point to real world data or data outside of a blockchain's own 130 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,160 execution environment that can be accessed from any L1 or L2 131 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,080 and where you can essentially spin up your own data feeds, 132 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,560 right. So you can deploy a program on 133 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,400 the set of network that essentially dictates what data 134 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,200 should be queried, where and how it should be computed. 135 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,520 That then gets stored on the set of network and from there it's 136 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:25,400 accessible or verifiable from any smart contract on any L1L2 137 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,040 or or sort of like crypto network. 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,880 OK, OK, cool. So you said first of all like 139 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,840 the the data like you want to have off chain data or or data 140 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,640 that's at least outside of this particular chain or this 141 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,240 particular context you want to have that accessible. 142 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,160 And of course the reason is sort of right or even today right. 143 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,800 A lot of things rely on let's say chain link right, for maybe 144 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,120 writing price feet onto onto the chain, right. 145 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,520 That like maybe OK what is the USD to ether price or something 146 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,520 like that, right. So, and of course, there's a lot 147 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,200 of like, yeah, other applications, right. 148 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,400 They say like or like, what do you feel like are some of the 149 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:13,840 applications that like you're most excited about that you 150 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,320 think would get enabled by having that capability? 151 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,360 Yeah, I think that there's a a a few things to touch on here. 152 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,880 I think the first thing and you sort of touched on this is it's 153 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,400 it's not just price feeds. I think that when people hear 154 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,280 the term Oracle, they sort of immediately think of price feeds 155 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,680 as the use case. But I would actually argue that 156 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:38,440 there is like the category of Oracle is extremely broad. 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,000 I like to say that almost everybody's essentially trying 158 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,280 to solve the Oracle problem in this space, right? 159 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,800 Like bridging is essentially an Oracle problem solution, right? 160 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,400 It's like an application specific Oracle price feeds, an 161 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,200 Oracle rebuild assets, it's an Oracle problem solution. 162 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,960 I think that you could even argue that unit swap for example 163 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,680 is essentially an Oracle where there's a economic incentive to 164 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:07,440 ARP the price to set price exchange prices right And that 165 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,560 that way it reflects sort of like off chain data. 166 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:17,280 The use cases that I get most excited about are still defy 167 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,320 just so price feeds but also interoperability, real world 168 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,440 assets, the the things that I sort of mentioned and the thing 169 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,480 that excites me the most about what we're building sort of like 170 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,520 the permissionless aspects of deploying new things. 171 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,200 So just like Etherium launched and had no idea what would 172 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,520 really stick, we have a better idea of the things that works of 173 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,120 like the low hanging fruit. But the the new things we enable 174 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,880 is where for me the real sort of like mystery still lies, right? 175 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,400 Like as soon as there's like fully permissionless data access 176 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,800 for any L1, I have no idea what people and developers will come 177 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:52,880 up with. And sort of like this idea of 178 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,000 empowering developers is what really is super interesting to 179 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,840 me. And then the second thing is as 180 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,240 we are seeing the app chain thesis or modularity thesis or 181 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,600 whatever you want to call it sort of play out over the last 182 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,920 sort of year and a half and I feel like it's going to go 183 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,800 exponential in the next year and a half. 184 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,960 There is core infrastructure that's necessary to enable a ton 185 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,280 of use cases on these new roll ups and app chains, right. 186 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,560 And I think probably the most core is having access to real 187 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,680 world data. So I think that the idea of 188 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,040 being able to launch an app chain, let's say we launched 189 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,440 SATA today, Tomorrow I could launch A roll up and immediately 190 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,920 have access to all of set U.S. data which means that I have 191 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,280 base interoperability and access to price feeds and developers 192 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,400 can just start building or we as an application specific network 193 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,960 have access to the data that we that we need. 194 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,680 You know, like I think that is those, those things are the 195 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:54,560 things that get me the most excited about the product that 196 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,560 we're building. OK, cool. 197 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,000 Well, let's, let's go a little bit into details into how this 198 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,280 works. So you mentioned sedan network, 199 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,160 so, right. So my understanding is sedan 200 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:11,160 network is a Cosmos SDK chain you're building, right? 201 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,480 And then is sedan network basically the way I understood 202 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,160 it, a developer would go on sedan network and then would 203 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,240 sort of almost like create a job there and say hey I want like X 204 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,720 data on Y chain and maybe set a few parameters or something like 205 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,120 that. That is essentially how it 206 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,680 works. Big picture if if we dive a bit 207 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:39,080 deeper that's how it works is we have set a chain which is used 208 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,160 for settlements and checkpointing right? 209 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,080 So it's like we're slashing happens and staking happens and 210 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,520 where data references and like you said, jobs which we call 211 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,960 programs are stored. If we go through the flow of set 212 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,600 A chain, I can deploy a program on set A chain that essentially 213 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,080 is a set of instructions on how data should be queried, from 214 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,160 where and how a final outcome should be computed, right? 215 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:11,640 So for a price feed it could be like query ether USD from six 216 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,640 exchanges and then give me a median value right? 217 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,200 That that could be some of the instructions that you give it to 218 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,680 this program and then the program is deployed almost like 219 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,760 a smart contract, so it's stored on the chain. 220 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,560 And then if you want that data to be queried, if you want to 221 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,760 get that data answered, then what you do is you ping the 222 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,920 chain referencing sort of like the contract address or ID of 223 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,400 that program. And then the chain picks 224 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,000 verified secret random committee of a second layer which we call 225 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,440 the overlay layer, which is a network of NPC notes that get 226 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,000 randomly selected to actually perform that computation. 227 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,000 So from like a technical perspective, the program is 228 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,240 stored as it wasn't binary, this wasn't binary gets executed by 229 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,320 the overlay notes in in a wasn't VM. 230 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,320 So they all get essentially some sort of uniform outcome that 231 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,280 should be close to the same outcome, and then it committed 232 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,400 back to set a chain. On set a chain. 233 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,520 What we then do is we batch all of the feeds or all of the jobs 234 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,520 together and we merkelize them and have them signed at the end 235 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,680 of the block. Maybe we can walk through this 236 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:32,280 like a bit more slowly. So you mentioned, so let's take 237 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,640 this example right. So, so you mentioned like I in A 238 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,480 roll up or someone launches like some chain or we yeah roll up or 239 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,080 maybe it's like some, let's just say it's some Cosmos as the K 240 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,040 chain or something and they want, they want what you 241 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,840 mentioned, right. So they want to have the price 242 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:54,320 speed and they want to have yeah the median of the 6th largest 243 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,880 centralized crypto exchanges to write like you know just the 244 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,480 same simple simple price speed. So they you deploy this program 245 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:10,360 on set a chain and and then the chain chooses sort of like kind 246 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,720 of like a particular set of notes to then perform this job. 247 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,920 Exactly. So we do like, yes, so the chain 248 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,040 uses VRFS to pick from like a larger pool of validators. 249 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,200 Because tender means validator sets have some scaling. 250 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,520 Scaling issues, yeah. OK, but is this the people sort 251 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,240 of the notes who write this data afterwards? 252 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,640 Are these the validators or these are other notes? 253 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Yeah, so these are not the set up chain validators. 254 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,280 There can be overlap, but this is like a second set of of 255 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,400 notes, yes? So the second set of notes and 256 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,960 then some are basically chosen sort of randomly from that set. 257 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,800 Yeah, Yep. And it's like a secret random 258 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,840 committee. So they don't know which other 259 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,520 nodes have been selected either. It's like to prevent collusion. 260 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:09,840 They don't know beforehand though. 261 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,120 They they don't even know at the time or. 262 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,600 So they don't know beforehand and they only know after, sort 263 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,240 of like the commit stage, right? So then after they commit to the 264 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,800 the outcomes, they know which other nodes were were selected. 265 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,680 Of course, because the the chain is now this is public. 266 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,600 Is it? Is it like a fixed number of 267 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,680 nodes are chosen or it depends on the security requirements of 268 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,920 a particular program? Yes, So the program can set like 269 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,040 the replication factor, like how many of the overlay nodes they 270 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:50,200 want to have run this feed and it depends on the, it depends on 271 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,240 a bunch of things, right? So that way you can sort of like 272 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,200 cater data security based on the use case that you use it for us. 273 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,160 If it's for something that doesn't have a lot of risk of if 274 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,520 it's something basic or or non D5 related like it's OK Maybe If 275 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,400 it's like a small set of overlay notes. 276 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,599 If it's something that holds a lot of value, probably want to 277 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,040 increase the replication factor. And then as somebody who creates 278 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,160 this program because I want this job, I then for example 279 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,400 basically fund. I put some money into this 280 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,200 program that then pays the the node operators who. 281 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,480 Yep, yeah. So when you ping the chain and 282 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,800 reference the program in order to have it executed, you provide 283 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,800 some gas fees essentially for computation. 284 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,680 Computation gets done. When you say ping the chain, 285 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,480 like who pings the chain and how? 286 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,840 Yeah, so anybody can ping the chain to say like hey query this 287 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,960 price fee, right. So if you have a price fee that 288 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,040 you want to have updated at a fixed interval for example, you 289 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,200 can ping the chain at that interval. 290 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,920 And we're working on something. We got continuous data requests 291 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,000 as well which essentially sets a for the next X amount of time 292 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,080 being every, every, every time essentially within the interval 293 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,360 or or set the condition when you want the IT to be what wanted to 294 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:14,200 be ping. That's completely 295 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,040 permissionless, right? So anybody can do that. 296 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,680 Like you can write a program that pings the chain directly. 297 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,640 You could fire the event on your destination chain. 298 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280 So I I launched A roll up. I fire an event there that's 299 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,560 then picked up by I don't know some solver relay that sees hey 300 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,880 they want this data so we are going to do it for them and 301 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,160 bridge it back. There's like a bunch of a bunch 302 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:35,640 of ways this can be done. But yeah. 303 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,080 Right, because the ping happens on, say, the chain. 304 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,040 Yes. Right, right. 305 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:47,200 And then and then the result is written to the some destination 306 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,440 chain. The result is written to set a 307 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:57,120 chain first, where it's then batched with any other request 308 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:01,840 that's coming in the same block. And at that point you collect 309 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,560 the batch which we do in like a a Merkel tree and then like I 310 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,720 mentioned we signed a route. So from there as as as soon as 311 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:16,640 the route is signed with a batch of data, you can verify the 312 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,640 signature from our validator set, essentially from any smart 313 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,840 contract and verify that the chain is a certain state. 314 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,600 So what's cool there also is if one person or a group of people 315 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,320 fund an ease the USD price feed that is updated every minute. 316 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:38,360 Any other chain now also has also has access to that to that 317 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,600 data because all of the data is stored essentially in this in 318 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,320 this manner. OK, and then you need some you 319 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,280 need like on the destination chain you need to be able to 320 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,040 verify right that signature. So so you need to keep track of 321 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,960 like the validator set or. Yeah, yeah. 322 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,040 And that's that's the great thing about Tender Mint is that 323 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,800 the validator set is not does not change that much, right. 324 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,960 And we have this. We have a pretty pretty finilla 325 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,240 chain I'd say I'd say, but there's one extra condition, 326 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,360 which is that if you leave the active set, you're still 327 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:23,000 required to at least sign the the routes the the batch routes 328 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,120 for another epoch which is still deciding on it's like next 12 329 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:30,520 hours or something. Oh, so the epochs are relatively 330 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,000 short? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 331 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,560 It's like 12 hours to two days, we're thinking. 332 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,680 Yeah. And and then that's the most 333 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,720 often that valid is it could change. 334 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:47,320 So that's the, yeah, you would not have to sort of update on 335 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,200 each chain destination chain and more differently. 336 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,760 Yeah, no. And what's cool is in the in the 337 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,240 batches. In the Merkel tree, there's 338 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:03,080 always we reference sort of like the next validator set, so let's 339 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,120 so as long as you have some data pushed within that time frame, 340 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,120 somebody can look say hey update, set and done. 341 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,960 OK. One thing I'm curious about, I 342 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,200 mean, I know there's been some discussion in Cosmos on, you 343 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,760 know, if something like BLS signatures where you basically 344 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,640 sort of can aggregate a lot of different signatures in a in a 345 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,440 single signature like doing something like that. 346 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,200 Is that something that would be very useful here because you 347 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,320 could reduce the size of this thing? 348 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,320 Or does that matter for you guys? 349 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,680 Yeah, for sure. We built ABLS signature 350 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:47,280 implementation. We built, we built a few because 351 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,040 not every smart contract chain has access to the same 352 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,200 cryptographic hashes or sorry, the the same cryptographic 353 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,760 curves. So we we build a few signatures 354 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,440 that that can be applied to the batches so that they can be at 355 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,240 least verified with subsidized verification functions on most 356 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,440 VMS. Yeah. 357 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,920 What what else is important about what are we missing sort 358 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,520 of from this process of like the chain, you know goes there this 359 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,840 is program now you have to notes are being chosen. 360 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,280 They're right on there. Yeah. 361 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,640 I I think the, the one thing we can touch on is sort of like 362 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,240 the, the way that data is then transported, transmit, yeah, 363 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,400 transported from set a chain to the destination chain because 364 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,320 essentially what you have now is like you're essentially 365 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,200 collecting data on our network, right. 366 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,680 And yes, it's verifiable, but how do you incentivize people to 367 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,360 then bridge the data back to the the chain where the data is 368 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,160 actually supposed to be consumed? 369 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,360 And for this, it's almost like an intent based network where 370 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,360 there could be multiple reasons why somebody would go there and 371 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,000 sort of like bridge the data back to the destination chain 372 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,600 and that the first one would be if there's any V exposed, right. 373 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,800 So we can essentially run a lending network on an on an L1 374 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,520 that we spin up ourselves or or an app chain that we spin up 375 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,120 ourselves. You set as a data source, and as 376 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:23,040 soon as there's liquidations that's supposed to happen, then 377 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,000 solvers can come in and then choose to bridge the data over 378 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,680 and perform the liquidations. I'm sorry I'm I didn't totally 379 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,800 get this. So OK, I understand right to 380 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,680 challenge is that basically now the program is running and they 381 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:46,000 have some price feat and then it now that's written on to say the 382 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,040 chain and now the question is I guess how does it get to the 383 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,080 destination chain? Yeah. 384 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:56,040 How do you incentivize somebody to to bridge it over, right. 385 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,360 So it's going to either be if we run the lending protocol like we 386 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,080 can run our own solver to sort of like bridge this data over 387 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,040 and perform the liquidations or you can rely on 3rd party 388 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,400 solvers or. Searchers is this solver? 389 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,360 Because it sounds kind of like a relay to me. 390 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,760 I guess solver is would be in the case if it's like integrated 391 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,760 in some, let's say some kind of exchange type thing that relies 392 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,560 on solvers. Exactly. 393 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,280 Exactly. So you because it's like 394 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,520 permissionlessly queryable, you can just add the ability for 395 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,440 solvers to essentially bridge the data or bridge the proof 396 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,280 with any action that it would normally do to perform, I don't 397 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,800 know, liquidations on perped axis or lending markets. 398 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,720 So basically there's like different ways that this can 399 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,040 happen. And I mean I guess one example 400 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,080 would be you know I create some application on X chain and I 401 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,440 want to say the price feed and I ask the application I I'm just 402 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,880 going to run some kind of you know relay and I'm just picking 403 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,800 it up and I'm putting it over there and you know I have some 404 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,240 external intentive because I want this application to run. 405 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,840 I guess that would be 11 model for sure. 406 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,280 Is it also part of the program that I could just say, hey, 407 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,200 anyone can do this relaying thing and if they do it, they 408 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800 get paid some fee? Yep, Yep. 409 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,280 So that's the bounty idea, right. 410 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,760 So you essentially place a bounty on the destination chain 411 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,440 that covers gas fees and then some for bridging the data over 412 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,880 and that's why you outsource it. And then the final one is like I 413 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,640 said, it's like I I just build it as a source for liquidations 414 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,240 for example. And I assume that at some point 415 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,480 when a liquidation occurs that exposes Mev. 416 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,400 So there's like an incentive for third parties to come in and 417 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,880 bridge the data over, right. So it's it's essentially the 418 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,480 same thing as a bounty, except like you don't place the bounty, 419 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,440 it's just part of your network. When you say liquidations that 420 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,680 will be some kind of can, can you walk us through an example? 421 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,200 For this, yeah, of course. So let's say we have a lending 422 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:22,200 protocol and I hold a position of I borrow USDC against ETH or 423 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,000 something at at some liquidation ratio. 424 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,280 As soon as the price of ETH drops below the liquidation 425 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,280 threshold, there's a fee to be made for liquidating that 426 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,800 position, right? So if you can bridge the proof 427 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,560 from set out to that chain and prove that ETH was below the 428 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,400 liquidation threshold, you now earn that fee without the 429 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,800 protocol saying like, hey, it's been X amount of time, so you 430 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,360 can claim a bounty essentially, right? 431 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,880 So if like other types of incentives to bridge the data 432 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,240 over as well, it'd be that that are sort of natural for for 433 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,880 certain D5 applications. Right, right. 434 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,360 OK so so in this example here. Of course this would only work I 435 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:11,880 guess if you only need the data. You know if the data is only 436 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,840 needed for the liquidation, right? 437 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:15,960 Yeah, yeah. Right. 438 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,280 So, so of course then it's only if there's liquidation, only if 439 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,440 there's that incentive then someone has can make money. 440 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,000 So that's when they're going to and would they then also they 441 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,840 would then also potentially pay the to run the to basically on 442 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,000 say the chain right, to get the data and and then you take that 443 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,600 and move it over. If the feed has not been updated 444 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,520 to reflect the current price that is below the liquidation 445 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,280 threshold, then yes, they would have the incentive to also run 446 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,240 the one, run the feed, run the program. 447 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,000 OK, cool. Yeah, I mean, that's a very, 448 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,760 yeah, it's a very power. This field looks like a very 449 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:04,480 powerful, primitive. One thing I'm curious about, So 450 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:10,840 we we talked about price feeds because it's you know kind of 451 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,280 like a known and and and and I'm sure it's probably still going 452 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,560 to be or I imagine it's still going to be the largest use 453 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,600 case, right. Because in the end like crypto 454 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,760 is basically you know people build financial applications, 455 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,840 right, and they want to trade and then price feeds are kind of 456 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,960 essential for that. But I guess if you look sort of 457 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:35,800 at other types of Oracle, other types of data maybe also data 458 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,040 where there's maybe more of a subjective component. 459 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Yeah, I actually say that price is one of the more subjective 460 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,120 things that's being pushed on chain today, even actually. 461 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,200 Because like there's there's no truth on like what the price of 462 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,240 ETH is right now, right? There's like a ton of algorithms 463 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,520 that you could use to get as close to the truth as possible, 464 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,320 but it's really hard to figure out what is truly the price of 465 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:02,640 ETH now. So you just sort of like take a 466 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,320 bunch and then you you use a bunch of like algorithms 467 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,640 essentially to try to get to something that is probably close 468 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,680 to the truth, as close as possible. 469 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,520 I think that more subjective data such As for example so, so 470 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,800 previously and that's that's probably good to touch on as 471 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,520 well. We actually build an optimistic 472 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,760 Oracle as well which is more similar to like an UMA or an 473 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,840 auger which essentially allows you to ask practically any 474 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,360 question to the Oracle and you essentially have humans 475 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,520 coordinate or or some machine programs or or humans anybody 476 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:45,120 could essentially coordinate and come to a conclusion of the what 477 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,880 the answer to that question is. I think SETA as a primitive as 478 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:55,040 you call it, which I like a lot is not really fit for that type 479 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,640 of data. It's it's more fit for like API 480 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,960 data. But yeah, maybe if you could 481 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,640 give an example of like the the sort of like more subjective 482 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,080 data sources. I mean, I guess you could, you 483 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,120 could be like, I don't know who's, you know, who's the best 484 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,840 band in France or what's the best band in France or something 485 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,680 like that. Yeah, no, I don't think that 486 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,320 unless there's an API for that, it probably would do something 487 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,880 else. Yeah, yeah. 488 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,720 Right. Yeah, I mean, but what you could 489 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,240 do is you could ask an LLM through setup. 490 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,560 OK, to answer that question right. 491 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,480 So it it I think that is another use case that I forgot to touch 492 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,520 on earlier is the fact that because anybody can plug in data 493 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,160 to the system, you can query anything from a smart contract. 494 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,000 So LLMS for example become also accessible to smart contracts 495 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,480 through through set up. But then how would you verify? 496 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,480 Because the LLMS are not really deterministic, right? 497 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360 So like you ask Chachi PT something and I ask you 498 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,080 something and then you know, we get different answers and then 499 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,960 so yeah, how how would that work? 500 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,680 That's a great point. There's two ways. 501 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,040 Some of them have deterministic endpoints that have some sort of 502 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,400 a seed that you can prove, like, hey, this was actually generated 503 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,400 by this LLM. The second one, which might be a 504 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,760 little bit less sexy but still works, is that when the data 505 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,880 provider plugs into the network, you have them sign the prompts, 506 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,560 right? So let's say ChatGPT is a data 507 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,840 provider to SETA. They signed a prompt, so you can 508 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,640 verify that that that that the that the prompt at least comes 509 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,520 or like the the response at least comes from. 510 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,680 Open AI provides out. For example, they provide like 511 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,680 signed, signed out. Well, not yet, not yet. 512 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,440 But if they would plug into set out, we would ask them to do 513 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,600 that. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. 514 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,520 Or or like if if I launch a Chachi PT wrapper on top of 515 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,040 SETA, I would sign it, right? So then you don't have proof 516 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,160 that it was actually ran by Chachi PT, but at least you have 517 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,280 like somebody to point to as like at the station essentially. 518 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,080 You have proof he was. It was run by Jasper, who said 519 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,480 he was the. Exactly so that it's not it's 520 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,120 not. That's not really bulletproof. 521 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,960 Depends on. Depends on who hosts the 522 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,280 wrapper, I guess. Yeah, and I mean, I get, I'm 523 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,080 sure people are going to have, you know, solved this in some 524 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,480 way, right? Where you're going to have some 525 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,800 kind of, you know, deterministic, verifiable LLM 526 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,720 outputs. Yeah, mid journey I believe has 527 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,720 deterministic prompt to image I I I forgot how to do it. 528 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,600 It's one of our engineers build a build a prototype using. 529 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,160 I believe it was mid journey. I mean we were talking a little 530 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,040 bit about sort of the determinist determinism and 531 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:01,440 verifiability. I'm curious are are like 0 532 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,640 knowledge proof? Something like like how how does 533 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,160 0 knowledge proof sort of intersect with SEDA I think. 534 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,640 Fully homomorphic encryption could be very interesting for 535 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,600 sort of like keeping the data private before it lands on 536 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,320 chain. So essentially what you could do 537 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,440 is half these overlay nodes that actually do the querying 538 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,520 computation, perform the Korean computation through like a fully 539 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,640 homomorphic encrypted service or or or data providers. 540 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:41,640 I I think the ZK thing I'm I'm not 100% sure how we could use 541 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:47,200 it except for for privacy for CK version of what what were at 542 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,400 least like it's not on the road map yet but what I mean it's 543 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,160 obviously something we think about I don't I don't I don't 544 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,280 see much more than that except for like the ability to query ZK 545 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:06,200 Lite clients and prove chain state like in a more elegant way 546 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,639 that that that that's something that makes a lot of sense and 547 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,880 then SETA can be used as more of a yeah like a data transport 548 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,679 layer which is essentially designed to do. 549 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,880 Right. So, So yeah, that's the other 550 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,880 topic I wanted to come back to because I think you mentioned 551 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,400 earlier breaching right as as a problem. 552 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,239 And of course bridging is something where Interpol is 553 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,719 something where we've seen you know, a massive amount of 554 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,639 activities and investment. I mean you have like protocol 555 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:42,280 like IBC that has a lot of usage, right, that basically 556 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,920 relies on like you know, light lines in each chain that you 557 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,360 know, there's a lot of reason cosmos, but including also a 558 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,679 whole bunch of teams trying to bring that, you know, like 559 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,719 everywhere like things like Polymer Union and other ones. 560 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,160 And then of course you have whole other protocols like 561 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,560 wormhole, yeah, things like Axler or Layer Zero. 562 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,440 There's like a huge amount of activity there. 563 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:11,400 How does Seder GG Fiang that Seder would be like a viable 564 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,920 alternative or competitive to these existing bridging 565 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,880 solutions? Yes, I also think that we can be 566 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,440 very complementary to a lot of them, right. 567 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,000 So we're talking to some of the teams you mentioned about set up 568 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,200 being part of their stack. Some of these solutions still 569 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,840 require like oracles or like essentially like somebody to a 570 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,480 test data, right. A lot of them are in the end 571 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,720 still some sort of multi sig but you try to like make the multi 572 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:47,200 sigs like for example right layer 0 requires still like an 573 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,560 Oracle and a relay as they call them which essentially like 2 to 574 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,800 a multi SEC in which an Oracle and a relayer have to agree on 575 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,440 the state of something being something. 576 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:02,040 And they they they use still like a lot of like RPC data for 577 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,120 so so OK so how it works with set on is because everybody can 578 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,040 plug into the network and provide data and anybody can 579 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:13,240 verify set a Oracle state essentially through some sort of 580 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,840 like what we build is pretty similar to IBC. 581 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,400 It's just got like a like a one way version light version of 582 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,280 IBC. So RPC providers can provide 583 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,640 data to SETA like we're talking to a bunch of them and 584 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,160 essentially what they do is they open up their API to SETA and 585 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,760 then people that provide these people can write programs to 586 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,280 query a bunch of RPC providers to verify chain States and then 587 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,560 you query multiple for the sake of redundancy, right. 588 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,080 So you can write a program that queries like I don't know like 589 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,360 Infira quick notes and Alchemy to verify the state of East to 590 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:02,240 be a certain to to verify, I don't know like with like block 591 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:04,440 hashes or or or or contract state. 592 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,400 And then you have that run through setup stored there and 593 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,400 then that can be queried from any L1 that then hatched 594 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,080 essentially has access to that piece of state from Etherium, 595 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,320 right. So that could be used by these 596 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,240 interoperability protocols as like part of their consensus and 597 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,520 that's that's something that's that we were talked to with a 598 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,560 bunch of them and it's it seems to make sense and I think that 599 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,000 the thing that makes sense most is that fact that as soon as it 600 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,640 enters our chain, it's verifiable from any other chain. 601 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,160 So you get like this super broad distribution mechanism simply 602 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,440 just by having the data come into our network. 603 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,960 And it's very interesting for RPC providers too because they 604 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,520 get to monitor that data through on chain traction as well, Not 605 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,640 just because right now essentially RPC providers just 606 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,560 sell their data to people that want to query chain state from, 607 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,320 I don't know like a server or something. 608 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,800 But I mean that's a, there's a huge demand on chain to query 609 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,480 chain state as well. So we're sort of like allowing 610 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,880 them to tap into that as well. Yeah. 611 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,640 I mean to open sort of an additional market there? 612 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:23,200 Yep, exactly. Is is RPC also something that 613 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,200 say that maybe I just did the we just did the podcast with Lava 614 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,920 Network the other week, right? So I know we're talking quite a 615 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,840 bit with them and I mean I think the thing that occurs to me that 616 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,800 actually there's a lot of similarity here, right, where 617 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,440 you know they also basically I'd have some kind of on chain 618 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,200 contract thing, right. That then, you know, requires a 619 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,320 bunch of people that they can write, run, basically RPC notes. 620 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,720 Although I guess in their case not the results wouldn't be 621 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:03,440 written like on chain, right? It it stays off chain, right. 622 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,040 So yeah. But all they need to do is plug 623 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,640 their one of their RPC gateways or whatever they called into the 624 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,560 set of network and now they also get to monetize on chain. 625 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,200 And I think that that's actually really interesting especially 626 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,360 for like the more distributed RPC networks because they have 627 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,520 like this sort of like permission is aspect to them as 628 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,600 well, right like that. That's one of the like core 629 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,720 goals of one of these more like like I know like the lava 630 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,040 networks or the pocket networks of this world is like the allow 631 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,120 access permissionlessly to RPCS and have like super high quality 632 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,040 service to distribution like low distribution and network 633 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,160 distribution. I think that plugging that into 634 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,120 a network, like I said is extremely makes a lot of sense 635 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,320 and we are in conversation with with some of these providers as 636 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:47,680 well. Yeah. 637 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,640 I mean, I guess this sort of flip side is right that in in 638 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,440 the end I guess say that provides this verifiability, 639 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,720 right? Because if I'm like OK, I want 640 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:02,120 to ask what's the balance of, you know, this account on 641 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,240 Ethereum or something like that, right, Then maybe I want this 642 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,960 verified, right, because it's going to trigger something, 643 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,800 right? Or maybe I just wanted to show 644 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,520 something in the website and I guess say that would be really 645 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,360 good if you want it verified. And something like Lava would be 646 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,240 good if you don't need it verified, or if you don't need 647 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:27,160 it verified Unchained. Seta couldn't work without 648 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,760 somebody like lava providing that data to SETA, right? 649 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,800 Or or or like an infra. So and then the more the merrier 650 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,160 because you can create redundancy which increases 651 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,960 security even more. So I think that, yeah, that that 652 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,360 that will be the main point actually. 653 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,080 Yeah, yeah, basically they just had the the same operators that 654 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,840 would serve something like lava could also serve something like 655 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,320 SEDA, right? And. 656 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:57,720 Yeah, I think, I think the idea is basically that Lava does the 657 00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,360 exact opposite for what SEDA does, right? 658 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,880 The the exact other direction. So they try to make on chain 659 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,320 state through RPC accessible to off chain, right? 660 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:14,880 We are trying to make all of the RPC data available on chain and 661 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,000 we don't want to be build our own RPC network, right like that 662 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,720 that that that's a whole different beast to slay. 663 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:27,200 So we would rather have somebody like Lava plug into our network 664 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,440 and provide that and be paid essentially to do what they do 665 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:37,160 already but for smart contracts. So I mean I get that what Seder 666 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,760 is seems to be, you know, useful for is, is some degree of 667 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,960 interoperability in the sense of, you know, I want like maybe 668 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,320 state from something that happens on chain A, it triggers 669 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,720 something on chain B, right, like that, that seems like 670 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:55,280 pretty, you know, like that getting that data over. 671 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,160 But then I guess when you look at let's say of course one of 672 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,160 the main use cases for intraorability is basically 673 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,240 moving tokens from one chain to the others. 674 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:10,600 That means you lock it up in one chain and you create some sort 675 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,880 of, you know, asset that can be redeemed for the acid on the 676 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,960 original chain. I guess that is something that 677 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,600 maybe one could theoretically build on top of SEDA, but it's 678 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,040 not something that like sort of SEDA natively will be able to to 679 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,840 do, right? Yeah, so so you need to build it 680 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,000 into into SEDA through the form of a program. 681 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,200 But what you could also do is plug it into Hyperlane or Layer 682 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,840 0, use it as the Oracle and now you have a super decentralized 683 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,200 bridge, right. So if you if you use SETA using 684 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,680 like a third party bridge application that's configurable, 685 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,240 all of the sudden you create like this sort of like hyper 686 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:55,640 interoperable due to the permissionless expert sort of 687 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,200 like scaling. So that that I think that's 688 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,920 really interesting because yeah you you could you could launch A 689 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,640 roll up tomorrow, plug your Air PC into SETA and then use 690 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,920 Hyperlane configured Oracle to be SETA and now you're 691 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,920 interoperable with essentially any of the other chains that 692 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,400 also have RPC data available on on SETA. 693 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,880 And I think that that is super powerful. 694 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,680 It's like like you said it's a primitive and I think that 695 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,840 that's where we need to go in the space right. 696 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,400 Like infrastructure need to be sort of like commoditized and 697 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,880 accessible to all instead of being gate kept and sort of like 698 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,320 acting as king makers. Yeah, cool. 699 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,800 So I know you guys have been working on this for a few years. 700 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,400 Like what is sort of the like, where are you right now? 701 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,680 Yeah, Yeah. So we so we've been working in 702 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,720 the Oracle space for a few years and it's it's actually like I 703 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,720 mentioned the optimistic Oracle we built before, before we also 704 00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:55,960 launched a first party Oracle. Optimistic or or like what's? 705 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,000 What's an optimistic Oracle? Yeah. 706 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,720 An optimistic Oracle is essentially an Oracle that you, 707 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,960 you, you ask a question, right, like what's the price of ETH and 708 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,240 somebody will answer it right? Or or a group of people will 709 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:13,120 answer it. And then you have like this 710 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,960 dispute resolution mechanism that dictates in the end what 711 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,040 the outcome was. So the benefit is it's very 712 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,360 accessible, You can ask subjective questions. 713 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,960 The annoying part is that it's can be incredibly slow. 714 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,240 If there is, if it's a if, it's like a a controversial question. 715 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,200 Or because you need some challenge period or something. 716 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,160 Yeah, challenge periods. And then if the challenge 717 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,680 period, if within the challenge period there is somebody 718 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,440 challenged, then it like extends right, sort of like up to a 719 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,400 certain point. And it it can take just super, 720 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,840 super long. It's cool, but it requires the 721 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,040 use cases are not that obvious, right. 722 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,520 You see it with Uma who has built this really cool Oracle, 723 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,280 but it's hard to find third party developers that get it 724 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,640 enough to build on it. So they end up building a lot of 725 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,440 the problem projects that are built on top of the Oracle in 726 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,160 house like O Snap or across for example. 727 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,680 So, so, so we were building that and then in parallel we were 728 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,720 building sort of like the opposite which was a first party 729 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:15,840 Oracle which is purely API data and we just give essentially 730 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,960 software to data providers that then push data on chain 731 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,400 themselves directly and that worked really, really well. 732 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,120 So we had like a few data providers pushing price data on 733 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:30,240 chain and the cool thing was that we grew from 0 total value 734 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,920 secured to like over 3 billion in total value secured over the 735 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,320 span of like two months I believe. 736 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,840 So we grew. Like value secured how how? 737 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,440 Like what kind of value was secured, if that? 738 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,840 So it was mostly like lending D5 but the so, so, so essentially 739 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,800 total value secured I say is if our Oracle got hacked, how many 740 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,680 money could you steal, right that's sort of like if if it got 741 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,280 exploited, how much money? OK. 742 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:02,680 So these were some D5 protocols that basically dependent on the 743 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,800 Oracle you guys. Yes, exactly like the total, 744 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,560 like the cumulative total value secured of D5 protocols using 745 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:16,200 flux first party Oracle. So yeah, we grew to the second 746 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,960 largest Oracle in the last bull run. 747 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,080 Do you know how how big was that number for chain link? 748 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:28,720 Like 60 billion. 60 billion. Yeah, maybe 80, like between 60 749 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:32,080 and 80 somewhere, yes. So, so we grew extremely 750 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,400 quickly, which was cool. But we also ran into sort of 751 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,480 like the horizontal scaling issues, right, Like you have 752 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,640 like this. We were the gatekeepers at that 753 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,840 point where we're like we're picking where we deploy to and 754 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,200 like the monitoring of all of these chains, making sure there 755 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,400 were balances in all of these chains, making sure the 756 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,440 validators or the OR the data providers were all like happy 757 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,840 and pushing and that that everything was going well. 758 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,840 It just didn't scale well. And that's why you see this huge 759 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,360 wait times for integrations with sort of like these more 760 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,640 centrally run Oracle networks. And that that's really what we 761 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,680 were trying to solve and that's why we that's what we that's 762 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,240 when we started designing what became Sera. 763 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,880 Next up though, at the end of this quarter, we're launching 764 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,440 our token migration, so. End of this quarter means like 765 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,720 end of March or something. Yeah, like mid to late March. 766 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,880 We just kicked off audits. Because say that token exists 767 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:35,760 today and it's on Ethereum or. Yes, exactly. 768 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,640 So with these previous oracles, we launched A token and that's 769 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,360 going to be the same token that's going to be securing set 770 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,040 a chain. So we need to have some time to 771 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,000 migrate. A large part of the tokens are 772 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,160 over before we go to like mainnet with the Oracle modules. 773 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,280 So we're launching sort of like a vanilla Cosmos chain with 774 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:59,160 token migration enabled and are looking to launch the first like 775 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,960 Oracle modules to mainnet hopefully in Q2. 776 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,280 So like by Q2 there should be the first mainnet like data 777 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,920 flowing to change through set up. 778 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,200 Cool, let's turn in. Do you already know some of the 779 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,720 some of the first applications or use cases that people 780 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:19,880 building on top of CEDNA? Yep, Yep, we want to. 781 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,800 So the thing I'm like most passionate about this, I think 782 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,240 for the like the next this and next cycle is the idea of chain 783 00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:31,080 abstraction. Can you explain chain 784 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,400 abstraction? Yes. 785 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,360 So right now, when you have all these roll ups popping up right 786 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,160 and they're all completely siloed off. 787 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,920 And as a user, if I want to interact with it, I have to find 788 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,840 a way to bridge tokens to it or get tokens to that instance of a 789 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,400 chain that I want to interact with. 790 00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,440 They have to go to my wallet, integrate the RPC swap to the 791 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,280 swap to the correct chain. And it's it's like if I want to 792 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,160 switch from Facebook to Instagram, all of the sudden I 793 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,960 have to change my IP settings or something. 794 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,760 It's a it's a really, really horrible UX. 795 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,600 Or you like have to bridge your account over like your photos or 796 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,160 something. I don't know, like statuses, 797 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,520 it's like terrible UX. So the idea of chain abstraction 798 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,680 is that you create. So I think there's multiple 799 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,240 implementations of it, but to me it's like you create a single 800 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:29,920 layer that people interact with, and then from there there's like 801 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:35,320 in the back end there is actors, solvers that actually perform 802 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,520 the actions in your name on the destination chains, so you don't 803 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,480 ever have to touch them, but you still own representations of 804 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,240 those actions so that you have like, yeah, you're the rightful 805 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,560 owner of the positions on these other chains. 806 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:55,120 And in order to do that, you need primitives that allow you 807 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,120 to query state from all of these chains, right? 808 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,600 And you cannot rely, unlike some third party actor, to deploy 809 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:11,280 their like interoperability primitive to all of these chains 810 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,800 separately. So I think that that is where 811 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,520 SETA has an extreme advantage, Just the fact that you can 812 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,160 permissionlessly deploy SETA on all of these chains and you will 813 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,800 always be able to rely on sort of like the same standard to 814 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:28,200 query data to verify whether something happened or not on on 815 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,400 these destination chains. So, so that is something I 816 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,480 personally like focus on to make sure we have like we're working 817 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,840 with multiple teams that are trying to solve for this. 818 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,920 And the other ones are like, I mean new roll ups launching that 819 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:49,040 needs need price data, existing roll ups that are sick of 820 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,280 waiting for another third for another Oracle to launch on 821 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,720 their network and are like can you guys please go live so that 822 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:57,680 we can have access to like price feeds and like base 823 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,160 interoperability and such. I think that the yeah that that 824 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,800 that's that's the sort of like the lowest hanging fruit for 825 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,600 now. And then we have some more 826 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,360 interesting like niche use cases that we're working at that 827 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,000 involve some of the like LLM things that that I touched on 828 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,120 earlier that I that are that are that are fun but are sort of 829 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,960 like to see whether they are going to be core of our 830 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,800 business. But yeah that's that's the those 831 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,040 sort of like the categories that that we're focusing on 832 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,360 internally. Cool. 833 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,000 And then are are these here more Are these Flux Oracles still 834 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,120 running or those have been discontinued? 835 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:38,080 No, we we shut them down. We we sunset them early last 836 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,440 year or like somewhere, somewhere September last year I 837 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:41,960 think. So the token has sort of been 838 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,680 like dormant and kind of waiting for the rebirth of. 839 00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:51,320 Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. We've been really stealth also 840 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,280 because we we had this thesis that this is where the space was 841 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,080 going. But until we saw it play out, we 842 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,480 weren't really comfortable being loud yet and until we were 843 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,440 closer to launching and like confident that we came up with 844 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,360 like the correct solution. But now that we are we, we are a 845 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:13,280 lot more comfortable going on podcast and talking to talking 846 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,320 to a ton of projects about about what we're doing. 847 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,280 I mean it it to me it sounds like a really logical way of 848 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,680 approaching this problem and like something that yeah, can 849 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,080 see like a massive market for this. 850 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,920 So sounds very cool. Yeah, yeah. 851 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,960 We're super excited. We can't wait to get this thing 852 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,480 live. It's it. 853 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,600 It. We're ready. 854 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,160 Cool. Well thanks so much for coming 855 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,240 on Jasper. So I think if people want to 856 00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:44,160 check it out, right. So the website is like sedas or 857 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:51,040 SEDA dot XYZ and anything else you wanna sort of. 858 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,000 Chill. Yeah. 859 00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,280 Follow us on Twitter at Setup Protocol. 860 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,160 I'm Jasper Flux. On Twitter, check out our 861 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,320 Discord. Come hang out, Ask questions. 862 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,800 If you're a builder in the space and you're launching your own 863 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:14,720 network and the idea of finding Oracle providers seems daunting, 864 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,360 like reach out, We're happy to spar with you on how to get data 865 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,560 to your chain. Talk to you about what data you 866 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,080 need, and yeah, make sure we we we're able to support you as 867 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,280 soon as we launch. Cool. 868 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,120 Well, thanks so much for coming on, Jasper. 869 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,160 It's great to have you and thanks so much for listening for 870 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,600 tuning in. We look forward to being back 871 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,440 next week. Thank you for joining us on this 872 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,800 week's episode. We release new episodes every 873 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,840 week. You can find and subscribe to 874 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,600 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 875 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,760 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home 876 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,400 Oregon Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest 877 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,720 episode of the Epicenter podcast. 878 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,800 Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a full list of places where you 879 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,040 can watch and listen. And while you're there, be sure 880 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,520 to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your 881 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,600 inbox as they're released. If you want to interact with us 882 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,320 guests or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on 883 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,480 Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes. 884 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,000 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 885 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,400 them. But thanks so much and we look 886 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:15,520 forward to being back next week.