1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,960 We were expecting to maybe get the same amount of value because 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,560 obviously the file had a really big peak, but what happened more 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,840 recently is that it got a lot of more traction. 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,440 There is somewhere between I think 1313 above billion worth 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,560 of value locked over the past years. 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,920 The stakes are growing in terms of what we're actually having in 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,280 D5 in terms of value, how much we have to secure and also how 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,080 incredibly well the space is growing still being very small. 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,120 The reason Go exists today is is because all they had from time 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,240 to time liquidity crunches to avoid this crunches, we could 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,040 actually have a protocol owned stable coin that could be minted 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,880 into these pools for users to borrow against. 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,960 But what's important here is this liquidity premium is 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,000 actually and pricing the liquidity is the answer to these 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,960 types of situations that happen incur because. 16 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,400 This episode is proudly brought to you by Gnosis, a visionary 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,800 collective committed to fostering and expanding 18 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,000 applications for a decentralized future. 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,400 Gnosis is at the forefront of innovation with Gnosis Pay 20 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,960 Circles and Metry revolutionizing open banking and 21 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:27,600 creating a superior form of money. 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,600 With Hashi and Nosys VPN they are building a more resilient 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,600 and privacy focused open Internet. 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,880 Are you seeking a robust L1 to launch your project? 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,200 Well look no further than Nosys Chain. 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,240 Enjoy the same development environment as Etherium, but 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,080 with significantly lower transaction fees and with a 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,120 robust network of over 200,000 validators, Nosys Chain stands 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,640 as a credibly neutral and resilient foundation for your 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,600 application. Governance at Nosys is driven by 31 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,720 Nosys Dow, where everyone has a voice in shaping the project's 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,320 future. Join the Nosys community today 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,960 by participating in the Nosys Dow Governance Forum. 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,320 You can deploy your project on the EVM compatible and highly 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,280 decentralized Nosys Chain or help secure the network by 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,520 running a validator with just a single GNO and low cost 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,520 hardware. Embark on your journey towards 38 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,200 decentralization today at nosys dot IO. 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,360 First One is one of the biggest node operators globally and help 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,440 you stake your tokens on 45 plus networks like Ethereum, Cosmos, 41 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Celestia and DYDX. More than 100,000 delegators 42 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,880 stake with Chorus One, including institutions like BIT, Go and 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,400 Ledger. Sticking with Chorus One not 44 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,720 only gets you the highest years, but also the most robust 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,800 security practices and infrastructure that are usually 46 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,840 exclusive for institutions. You can stake directly to Chorus 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,840 One's public note from your wallet, set up a white label 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,800 note, or use the recently launched product Opus to stake 49 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,640 up to 8000 ETH in a single transaction. 50 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,080 You can even offer high yield staking to your own customers 51 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,080 using their API. Your assets always remain in 52 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,680 your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind. 53 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,800 Start staking today at Chorus .1. 54 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 55 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,960 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,400 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian Kruccio and I'm 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,680 here with my Co host Felika Ernst. 58 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,160 Today we're speaking with Stani Kulichov, who is the founder and 59 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,720 CEO at Avi Labs and Avara. We'll be diving deep into the 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,080 recent Avi Before proposal and what that means for the protocol 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,080 and also talking about Defy and the future of decentralized 62 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:43,840 finance in general. Cool. 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,600 Stani, thank you so much for coming on again. 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,440 I mean, I had to like talking to you 2 legends. 65 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,800 It's it's, it's always a pleasure. 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,400 Thank you. So we're here to talk about Ava 67 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,600 V4 today. There has been a number of 68 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,280 proposals that just very recently passed. 69 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,760 Before we dive into that, can you maybe walk us quickly 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,960 through the evolution of Ava V1 through three? 71 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,519 Well, yeah, it's it's definitely been really, really out saving 72 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:25,240 long journey. So as some of the listeners 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:30,360 might, might know, and I started building decentralized finance 74 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:36,560 in 2017, two 1016 already kind of like thinking of ideas and 75 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,360 what to build and, and what's important for the ecosystem as 76 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,640 a, as a product. And, and what came out of that 77 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,600 was, was a project called Eastland shared for Ethereum 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,240 lending. And I had this idea that if you 79 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,920 can actually swap assets on chain, you could also use those 80 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,680 assets as a collateral and borrow against as well and also 81 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,400 earn yields. The way I started was more of 82 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,400 like a peer-to-peer setup in a market because mainly a lot of 83 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,680 these assets were very low liquid and there wasn't this a 84 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,440 concept of pulling yet. But later with, with Unisfop and 85 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,800 a lot of the innovation, pulling assets became a more of a common 86 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,000 thing. And we iterated into all the 87 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,800 protocol, which is essentially a a pooled model where you can get 88 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,760 liquidity, access to liquidity right away and then use whatever 89 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,560 you supply as a collateral to draw basically borrow any other 90 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:49,440 asset. And the difference between what 91 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,760 you pay for supplying. So you receive as an interest as 92 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,800 a supplying and pay for borrowing than it is your 93 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,640 different cost difference cost there. 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,320 And looking at each deployment we had, I guess it land was more 95 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,240 of experimentation. I was still studying in 96 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,640 university. I've I've been, I've been 97 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,720 builder for quite a long time. I built Fintech and various web 98 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:25,120 applications back in the Ruby and Rails and Web two era. 99 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:33,600 And I think of the protocol was something that evolved as a kind 100 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,880 of like a ideal way of of actually gaining on chain 101 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,800 liquidity. And when we launched, I, I think 102 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,480 our expectation was that maybe the protocol will have 10 or 20 103 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,160 million worth of value in the smart contracts. 104 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:55,280 And with based on like the TVL mimetic metric of value lot in 105 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,960 and ended up ended up having several 100 millions. 106 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,080 And by the V2, our goal it was to basically create a better 107 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,640 protocol and being more capital efficient, more risk management 108 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,680 tooling. And that ended up being what we 109 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,280 expected to have maybe few 100 million became a protocol that 110 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,560 had few billion worth of value. And then V3, which is our most 111 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:29,080 recent development of the other protocol from other labs, we 112 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,080 were expecting to maybe get the same amount of value because 113 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,720 obviously D5 had a really big peak. 114 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,280 But what happened more recently is that it got a lot of more 115 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,840 traction again and we have all these different network 116 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,880 deployments that the community developers are deploying now. 117 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,280 They is now over 13 different markets. 118 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,720 There is somewhere between I think 1313 above billion worth 119 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,560 of value logged. So it just showcases kind of 120 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,920 like how over the past years the stakes are growing in terms of 121 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,920 what we're actually having in D5 in terms of value, how much we 122 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,680 have to secure and also how incredibly well the space is 123 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,840 growing, still being very small, but still exciting to see how 124 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,120 things have been evolved. And that's basically where we 125 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,320 are now. And the V4 is something that 126 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,520 where we want to build a lasting protocol, which should be the 127 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:39,640 last like a major iteration. But I give you a little bit of 128 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,799 warning because every time we are building a new iteration, we 129 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,880 think it's final and we don't need to do much changes. 130 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,760 A year goes past or two and we're still, you know, finding 131 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,640 things that we can do better, new innovation. 132 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,800 And it feels like whenever we say this, we still have some 133 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:03,960 work to do in the future. Stani, you and everyone else, I 134 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,240 think this has happened. This is what happens to our 135 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,080 bidders. So let's quickly just say on V3 136 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,680 before we keep dive into kind of what you're planning for the 137 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,400 future. So you guys have a stable coin 138 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,240 called Go that works similarly to makers die. 139 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,840 There was recently an escalation between maker and Ave. regarding 140 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,240 the use of certain collateral. Can you quickly walk us through 141 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,760 what happened and why it escalated? 142 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,520 No, it's an interesting topic because what happened factually 143 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,600 is that from the maker community, there was an 144 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,560 initiative to to actually use ethinos EUSD, which is 145 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,560 essentially kind of like on chain yield fund where the 146 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,120 collateral is in this different centralized exchanges and you're 147 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:02,040 capturing the the yield of that, that type of activity. 148 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:07,560 That's the the staple core had in the underlying model. 149 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,920 Now the model is very interesting and the project is 150 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,800 extremely interesting and got a lot of traction, but obviously 151 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,640 it's still very new. And what we saw from maker is 152 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:25,000 that there was this initiative to actually meant a lot of dye 153 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,880 against this collateral, which basically meant to the extent of 154 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,360 couple of billions of words over the short time horizon. 155 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,160 So this is kind of like interesting because from all the 156 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,080 protocols perspective in the Abbey DAO and risk manager 157 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,240 perspective, holistically the the the Abbey DAO and risk 158 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,640 management has to go and is seen through asset by asset 159 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,080 perspective and risk parameter perspective. 160 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:01,000 So this changed the risk profiling of make it out, but 161 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,200 also specifically die with this initiative. 162 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:12,840 So it's it was a question of the conservative die as A and and 163 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,600 maker as a system is basically taking more opportunistic 164 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,040 approaches and that risk should be repriced. 165 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,800 And there was a lot of discussions in the Aberdau how 166 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:28,720 to reprice this risk and also signal of change of risk profile 167 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,640 within the, the protocol and, and, and greater D5 community. 168 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,840 And that was essentially like what, what was it all about? 169 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,280 And I think that they, they, the actual question is that's the, 170 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,960 the, the underlying collateral itself could be and make it some 171 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,560 extent that the way it's for example, to some extent in as of 172 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:58,880 today, you know, the V3, but it's a question of magnitude and 173 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,400 risk profiling as well. So that's the kind of series of 174 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,640 events that that happened. So makers deployments are 175 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,560 actually just deployments of the other V3 contracts, right. 176 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:15,600 So kind of do you think the difference between Maker and and 177 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,840 Abe at this point is kind of just risk appetite in, in terms 178 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,960 of underlying collateral or where, where do you see the 179 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,920 differences? Yeah. 180 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:31,120 I mean, the tech that we usually build, build from the other labs 181 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,920 perspective and and the tech IC in wider of a community, it's 182 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:42,040 very innovation driven. So even things like go, the 183 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,520 underlying technology, go stability module and compared to 184 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:51,000 what exists today out there, we usually don't fork directly code 185 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:54,720 what we do, we actually figure out things that are could be 186 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,280 improved and and innovate on on top of the existing status quo. 187 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,960 So do you think that they vary different type of technological 188 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,880 risks and over time they mature, especially more air pairs, pairs 189 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,680 come so kind of like the the last bastion of risk. 190 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,360 And I think this just doesn't apply specifically only to Abe 191 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,560 and and maker, but in general, the whole DFI ecosystem is is is 192 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,960 the risk management on the underlying assets. 193 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,560 So what is actually backing all that activity, all those 194 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,160 borrowings or or mints of go or or die and and So what is the 195 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,680 kind of like a last standing collateral there? 196 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,720 And I do think that makers risk profile has changed since if you 197 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,640 go back in for example, in a couple of years, obviously T3 MA 198 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,280 module where you can printmaker into different protocols that 199 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,200 existed quite a while and that's been very useful for the Abe 200 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,080 protocol as well. But essentially, what with the, 201 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,640 the way to think about these two different protocols is there's 202 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,280 two different risk management communities that are seeing risk 203 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,600 differently. And this is important because 204 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:14,080 previously, you know, everyone was relying upon dye and, and 205 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,960 maker and there was so much vested interest because it was 206 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,800 one of the main projects on Etherium in D5, the main state 207 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,400 decentralized stable coin. And now there's options and, and 208 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,880 I think this optionality is really important because it 209 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,320 allows the the avenue risk management community to decide 210 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,040 what direction to to take go for example, and monitor as well 211 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,360 what direction the maker community takes die and reflect 212 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,000 towards. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the 213 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,080 day it's all about communities and how decentralized governance 214 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,760 decides about what risk parameters, you know the 215 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,080 community wants to accept for in this case the the collateral 216 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,520 types on their protocol. Yeah, let's let's talk about V4. 217 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:08,440 I think this is quite an ambitious proposal to move as 218 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,880 you said towards, you know, what might be the final version of of 219 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Ave. I I have doubts about that. 220 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,280 I think they'll be further versions and and possibly more 221 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,080 innovation. But we have what inspired this, 222 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:27,240 this development of V4 and can you maybe just give us an 223 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,480 overview of some of the main things that Avidi 4 innovates on 224 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:38,480 with regards to like V3? Yeah. 225 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:45,160 I think 2 important, I would say categories of of innovation 226 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,120 pretty much is consistent with with all of these other protocol 227 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,840 releases. There's a focus on risk 228 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,640 management and, and the tools that protocol enables regarding 229 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,720 risk management. And the 2nd is capital 230 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:08,520 efficiency. Yeah, and, and also in before we 231 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,240 have these two categories as well that we focus quite a lot. 232 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,600 And a lot of these features are actually improvements of 233 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,000 existing way of managing risks, bringing more flexibility as 234 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,120 well bringing more capital efficiency. 235 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,560 But there's two additional categories and and one of them 236 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,520 is actually related to both risk and capital efficiency, which is 237 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,440 a pricing component. So for example, given the way 238 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,080 the other market is, is built, it's actually built in a really 239 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,040 user friendly way. So users can come in supply 240 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,560 different kinds of cryptographic assets that are eligible and 241 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,520 then pull the liquidity that they need. 242 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,720 So effectively, you can utilize pretty much your portfolio on 243 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,280 whatever you need to, to borrow, can repay. 244 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,240 It's really flexible. The, the, the experience there 245 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,440 is relatively simple, but also intuitive. 246 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,079 And you don't need to go to separate markets and, and kind 247 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,880 of like, you know, put it into another place, put like, let's 248 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,319 say another asset, let's say of it to another place and, and 249 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,359 then borrow from here and here and monitor all these positions 250 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,600 and, and, and manage them, right. 251 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,040 So, so that's kind of like a one part of it. 252 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,400 So because you can do this all this activity in one same 253 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:42,120 market, it also means that whenever you supply a particular 254 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:49,640 asset that is yielding, so let's say you supply USDC, it also 255 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,160 means that you're earning based on what users are borrowing that 256 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,640 asset out. And it creates an interesting 257 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,480 scenario for the users because it means that USDC is priced 258 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:06,840 across the protocol in a, in a one, I'll say price regardless 259 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,560 what is the user's risk positions, how much they're 260 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,960 adding risk, whether they they're not adding that much of 261 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,080 A risk. And we wanted to change that. 262 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,280 So we wanted to change the pricing in a way that it 263 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:22,400 reflects how much risks these users are actually bringing into 264 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,800 the protocol. Yeah. 265 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,560 And that's the new category. And another category is the 266 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,200 governance overhead. So the way we are thinking about 267 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,920 the whole protocol, the architecture, it's more 268 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,800 modularized. It, it means that you can fix 269 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,960 different parts without actually needing to upgrade the whole 270 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,200 protocol, the code base, it gives a lot of flexibility 271 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,800 there. But in this category, we also 272 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,600 want to minimize the governance overhead. 273 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,200 So how we actually can create let's say liquidity layers that 274 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:01,240 are immutable or we can create different kinds of parameters 275 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,040 that are immutable or time based where they only affect from from 276 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,480 the moment proposal gets into execution and new positions as 277 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,520 as an example. So these are the kind of things 278 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,960 and I think a lot of these new categories are really optimizing 279 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:25,720 the existing really good product and and also removing the 280 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,960 overhead of governance, which basically means maturing. 281 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,160 The protocol is getting more matured and the technology is 282 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,120 getting more matured and reflecting to that. 283 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,400 Right. And I noticed you didn't mention 284 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,560 the the unified liquidity layer. I think this is actually one of 285 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:48,080 the most interesting aspects of B4 is pooling liquidity from all 286 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,840 of the different markets that Ave. is present in. 287 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,680 This is an interesting and probability challenge I think 288 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,240 that you guys have solved with this this Portals product that 289 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,840 you released some time ago. What are the main architectural 290 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:08,800 challenges and and maybe changes from V3 that folks will notice 291 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,800 in V4 with this new unified the query layer and maybe we can 292 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,600 then get into what the unified the query layer actually offers 293 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,440 users. On a high level, without going 294 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:30,040 too much into technical specific specification, I think one of 295 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,200 the challenges is that the other version three is a little bit 296 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,640 built in a more like a monolithic model. 297 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,840 Meaning it all the main kind of like a ingredients of the 298 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,120 protocol are very interconnected. 299 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,760 And if you have significant changes that you want to change, 300 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,320 for example the borrowing logic, maybe you have changes regarding 301 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,680 to you know, a liquidation model. 302 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,880 You will have to go kind of like into the core protocol layer and 303 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,280 make those changes and upgrade a a code base that might be 304 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:14,480 affecting 12 to 14 billion worth of value in a smart contract 305 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,080 upgrade. Now we haven't seen those type 306 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,440 of upgrades that many at at this level, but a stakes are going 307 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,240 high and more value sloped in, in these protocols. 308 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,800 That is something what where we have to mitigate also risk and 309 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,880 and the way we think about unified liquidity layer and also 310 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,760 this new modularized architecture is is that the 311 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,320 unified liquidity layer is is a way to capture liquidity into 312 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:50,000 one specific like a pool or layer and everything else can be 313 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,800 connected to that liquidity. So that's ranges from for 314 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:59,440 example, a borough modules that might differentiate amongst each 315 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,440 other, updating the borrowed logic. 316 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,680 It can be a changes to a liquidation engine, different 317 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,040 kinds of modules that might affect might be also like a 318 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:17,520 portal module that manages the main thing and burning a tokens 319 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:23,840 between different networks for like a cross chain type of a use 320 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,320 case. And I think this is the 321 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,040 fundamentally different difference between what we're 322 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,920 doing in the V4 and previous versions. 323 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,560 So what we want to actually create is that as a, for 324 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,040 example, community developer, you can work on a specific 325 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,760 module, improve that specific module, or create a new module. 326 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,840 And by governance process, it can be plugged into the 327 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,120 architecture as well. And you can this way iterate 328 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,760 faster. So you can change this different 329 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,360 modules without actually affecting the whole core pool 330 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,320 logic. And this also means that this 331 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,880 allows institutions and other entities even create their own 332 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,480 liquidity layers and somehow manage them as well. 333 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,200 And this brings a interesting new opportunity for 334 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,080 institutions, for example, to to create something on towards 335 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,320 their own use cases. Maybe let's go into detail as to 336 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,760 how the unified liquidity layer handles risk profile of assets 337 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,880 across different chains in the market. 338 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,840 You you were talking about risk earlier and how we risk boring 339 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,920 and sorry, how you price boring and lending on different assets. 340 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,360 Does the unified liquidity layer sort of create a like a single 341 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,080 price for an asset across all these different markets, or is 342 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,040 there a way for users to specify and target certain types of 343 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,880 assets that you know may get them a better rate or like a 344 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,120 worse off rate depending on what chains those are on? 345 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,400 So unified liquidity layer, what's amazing about it, it's, 346 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:09,560 it's simply a, it's simply a place to store value the, the 347 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,320 actual liquidity and, and the accounting of that liquidity 348 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600 that who and which users it belongs to. 349 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:19,640 And also there's a connecting points into these different 350 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,960 modules. So it's, it's as simple as that. 351 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,720 And you can also register your liquidity into a liquidity layer 352 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,280 without actually supplying it and keeping it, for example, in 353 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,200 a Gnosis safe as an example, which means that you won't be 354 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,040 able to lend out your funds, but you will be able to borrow 355 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,960 against. And it's something that is an 356 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,560 interesting feature from institutional perspective or 357 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,400 mitigating that type of lending risk. 358 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,160 But essentially all these other modules, for example, what is 359 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,880 the interest rate curves, what are pricing mechanisms and 360 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,760 everything else it's is outside of the unified liquidity layer. 361 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,880 And they can exist obviously between different networks. 362 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,160 And to give more details about what, what what you mentioned 363 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,280 said about the, the pricing. So we have this new feature 364 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,560 called liquidity premiums. And the way it works is that 365 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:31,720 with liquidity premiums US with your position, it's priced the, 366 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,840 the, the asset that you're borrowing is priced with the 367 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,640 position that you create. So we can take an example where 368 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,320 you create a position where you supply only it and you borrow 369 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:45,120 USDC. So for example, today you will 370 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:51,080 be paying a certain price for USDC, but also a a person that 371 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,720 is supplying, let's say, more riskier assets that are eligible 372 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,600 in the protocol and borrowing USDC, they're paying the same 373 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,600 price. So I don't know if you remember 374 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:08,480 there was over a year ago this scenario with CRV where 375 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,840 basically the Curve founder had a big position in in all of it. 376 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,920 And, and basically the Dow started to off board the 377 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,160 collateral by mitigating the loan to value ratios, 378 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000 liquidation thresholds. And effectively the the founder 379 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,640 went to other protocols with which later today, as of as of 380 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,440 today, recently suffered actually bad debt because they 381 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,360 they took those positions to their protocols. 382 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,440 But what's important here is this liquidity premium is 383 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,240 actually and pricing the liquidity is the answer to these 384 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,000 types of situations that happen incur. 385 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,800 Because what you can do if, if a position is borrowing the same 386 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,120 USDC and they're providing more risk or the market conditions, 387 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,920 dynamic market conditions changed significantly, we can 388 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,120 add a liquidity premium much more higher. 389 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,160 So basically even if you keep the position in the protocol, 390 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,080 you're paying more to the protocol into the Dow for that 391 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,640 position. And then it's up to the user to 392 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,400 to take that additional cost or living out of the protocol. 393 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,640 But this also means that actually if you're just 394 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,160 supplying eats and you have the most leanest collateral, you're 395 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,800 effectively paying much lower rate than the average because 396 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,280 you are essentially having the the the leanest position within 397 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,440 the same market. And architecture wise, we are 398 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,960 not segregating these pools from each other, but it's still in 399 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,280 the same market. And I think that's the beauty of 400 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,520 it is that you can do all this activity on the same market, but 401 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,680 we have a way to price the user's position based on how 402 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,520 much they're providing risk into the protocol and whether there's 403 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,600 sufficient reward for the protocol. 404 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,720 How does this pricing work? Is it algorithmic or is it 405 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,760 something that you kind of need an underwriter function for? 406 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,320 Technically speaking, it's essentially just a delegation on 407 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,800 the contract, which means that it can be a fixed logic. 408 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,920 And that can mean, for example, certain asset could have a 409 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,400 certain parameter which is the risk premium parameter. 410 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,720 And I think that's the way to start in the first iteration. 411 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,160 But of course, because we have this amazing module architecture 412 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,320 it it also means that that type of pricing module could be 413 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,640 changed to something or asset specifically change for example, 414 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,160 that reflects actual market conditions. 415 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:55,640 So for example, if an asset decreases in liquidity that 416 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,440 could automatically increase the the premium. 417 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,480 And this is the beautiful thing about it is that you mitigate so 418 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,720 much of the governance overhead of actually managing these 419 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720 parameters where they could actually be automatized between 420 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:17,080 certain specific accepted range. How do you think the liquidity 421 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,680 layer will benefit GO? So kind of if you look at the Go 422 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,560 market cap today, it's about a third or so of the die market 423 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,480 cap. Do you think it stands to 424 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,600 benefit from from this unified liquidity? 425 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:40,480 Yeah, I think Go is quite interesting because and Go as a 426 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,400 kind of like a, as a, as AI would say like infrastructure 427 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,960 within our ecosystem is, is really fascinating. 428 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,440 So when we think about Go internal and, and, and the 429 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,760 benefits, the the reason Go exists today is, is because all 430 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,400 they had from time to time liquidity crunches. 431 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,480 And there was an idea that we had that to avoid this crunches, 432 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,600 we could actually have a protocol owned stable coin that 433 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:15,080 could be minted into these pools for uses to borrow against to 434 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,440 avoid the liquidity crunches. And while we were thinking of 435 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,040 this idea, we realized that actually one of the benefits of 436 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,640 of Go is and compared to make it out die back in the days is that 437 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,600 when you supply your assets to other protocol, you earn on the 438 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,720 collateral while you're borrowing Go. 439 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,760 So you have this kind of like a capital efficient stable coin. 440 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,880 And on the other, other protocols perspective, it also 441 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,640 brings to the users predictability on their interest 442 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,000 rates, which is a great feature especially when all the markets 443 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,200 are on variable rate basis. And when we look from the other 444 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,880 protocol perspective, what's the benefit of of Go? 445 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,200 It's quite exciting to look at it because Go doesn't have LP's 446 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,920 to at the moment you don't supply into the other market Go. 447 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,240 It will change in the future with Crosschango first in 448 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,840 arbitrary and Dandelion also will be available in in mainnet. 449 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,600 But because Go doesn't have these LP's, it means that the 450 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,280 reserve factor which is the way to collect Orbitdao revenue from 451 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,360 the protocol, it's actually 100 instead of like 10 that is in 452 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,520 USDC. So just to give you a magnitude 453 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:44,120 of the revenue, 100 million fourth of GO minted brings equal 454 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,080 amount of revenue to the Orbitdao as 1 billion USDC. 455 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,760 And that's remarkable because that revenue then cascades into 456 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,080 building and innovating more on the community side and on the 457 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,480 technical stack and also figuring out different ways to 458 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,680 to reward users. And in the view for perspective, 459 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,760 obviously with with liquidity layers, there can be different 460 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,880 facilitators that meant directly go on onto these liquidity 461 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,600 layers that can be then borrowed out. 462 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,880 But we have in V4, we have basically multiple features that 463 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,880 kind of like make the Go integration more seamless with 464 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,760 the protocol. You have Go soft liquidations, 465 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:37,360 which is kind of a feature that the CRVUSD pioneered. 466 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,360 So basically you can soft liquidate your positions and go 467 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:48,480 and and vice versa. You can get paid interest, for 468 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,080 example, in Go on any asset that you have that can be done 469 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,560 directly under the hood on the on the protocol. 470 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,720 And there's a couple of like technical improvements, but 471 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,720 before will bring the integration between Go and the 472 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,920 other protocol more kind of like titling it together I. 473 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,560 Wanted to ask also about the, the, how does changes the UX or 474 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,000 how does it improve UX for Avi users? 475 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,840 So like maybe walk us through an example here. 476 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,880 Like hypothetically you have a user who's on Polygon and has 477 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,640 collateral on East L1 and, and they want to borrow against that 478 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,440 collateral on Polygon on, on the Avenue market on Polygon or at 479 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,880 least on the Polygon chain. How does that work for the user? 480 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,200 And like in the background, what's happening to those 481 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400 assets? Where are they being sort of 482 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,000 locked? And more importantly, maybe like 483 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,720 who's paying for the gas fees? Because we haven't talked about 484 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400 this, but the the orchestration of the unified liquidity layer, 485 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,720 I believe is still happening on on Ethereum mainnet. 486 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,640 So maybe just describing like that user flow and what's 487 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,760 happening in the background there? 488 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,760 Yeah, and I can. It's also like a the kind of 489 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:16,040 like subsequent iteration of the unified liquidity layer, which 490 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:21,800 is the cross chain version of the liquidity layer with the 491 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,960 portals. And what is effectively means is 492 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,800 that the the of it as a protocol can actually move liquidity 493 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,880 between these different deployments and that can be 494 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,040 iterated to cross chain positions effectively. 495 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,960 You could you could technically then keep your collateral for 496 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,840 example, one Etherium mainnet for example, eat and then you 497 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,360 can draw, for example, go on another network. 498 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:58,000 Portals is just a a simple feature of minting and and 499 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:04,640 burning unpacked a tokens that then are subsequently backed 500 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,320 right away. And they kind of like a key 501 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,720 component of this feature is having caps of how much you can 502 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,000 actually do that and, and what's the purpose? 503 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:21,160 So the, the original idea of the portals was actually to allow 504 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,520 third parties to come and get some sort of credit line up to 505 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,680 certain points to be able to, to, to use portals. 506 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,120 It it's a tool for, for bridging as well. 507 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:42,360 We see the idea for for portals also kind of like an, I'd say a 508 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:47,160 way to move liquidity very fast between networks. 509 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,920 I personally believe that maybe most of the users will, they 510 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,760 might have their liquidity in one specific network, but you 511 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,240 will have users that are operating in, in, in multiple 512 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,440 networks and it's going to be very useful. 513 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,720 But for from like from for me, like the the the most exciting 514 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:15,400 actually UX part of of the whole before and and this works with 515 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,160 with the portals and unified liquidity layer is the aspect of 516 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:26,240 the waltz and smart accounts. And, and it simply means that, 517 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:30,920 for example, if, if you want to supply liquidity, but you don't 518 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,160 want to supply the assets into the liquidity layer for some 519 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,120 particular reason. One, you don't want to, to get 520 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:45,360 the funds lended out to, you want to see the collateral 521 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,600 segregated from the other parts. And then you want to keep it a 522 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,280 three, you want to see it in your, let's say, smart account. 523 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,880 So what, what we are essentially doing is that you can see your, 524 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:06,240 you can, you can register your collateral in the protocol, but 525 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:08,920 you don't need to supply it. So you can keep it in your knows 526 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,680 it's safe and then you can draw the liquidity against it. 527 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:18,600 And, and obviously this is like a really interesting thing 528 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,280 because you, you don't really need to put your assets into the 529 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,560 to the protocol and you can keep them segregated. 530 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,920 And this is also opens up some interesting institutional use 531 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,560 cases as well. You can provide some asset 532 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,240 station to avenue that the liquidity is in a contract. 533 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:46,120 It might be locked there that that liquidity is that the the 534 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,320 position is backed by something even though it's not in a pool 535 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,480 on the protocol. Yeah, exactly. 536 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,280 So that's the, the, the key difference. 537 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,480 It's, it's mainly of kind of for, for some, some users, it 538 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:09,920 feels more intuitive to see those assets in there, basically 539 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,120 smart accounts. And then you can still borrow 540 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,480 without having to kind of like we don't see in your assets 541 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,240 leave. And I think that's a interesting 542 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,360 thing. And then obviously using smart, 543 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,920 smart accounts itself is a big UX improvement because that 544 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,640 enables things like for example, gas less and silence 545 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,000 transactions and bunch of other interesting things that can be 546 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,360 built upon that even further. Cool. 547 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,520 Stanley, can you talk about the role of real world assets in our 548 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,360 V4? Yeah, there's, there's obviously 549 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:56,400 the, the, the segregated world applies also to the real world 550 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:03,000 asset type of A use case and could be very useful way. 551 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,760 Maybe there's some sort of extension of like tokenization, 552 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,440 tokenizing, storing in your own vault, borrowing against. 553 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,200 What I'm excited quite a lot about the V4 is that it allows 554 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,800 to have with this new V4 liquidation engine, it allows to 555 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:27,640 have liquidation strategies. So typically the way these 556 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,360 protocols are lending protocols are built is that when when 557 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,800 liquidation happen, there's certain rules for that. 558 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,240 And and that might be, for example, you have a liquidation 559 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,000 bonus that happens when a certain price range is hit and 560 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,600 the liquidator keeps that portion. 561 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,960 It might be Dutch auctions as an example. 562 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,400 But what liquidation strategies actually allow is that you can 563 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,960 have a a different type of liquidation strategy depending 564 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,840 what the asset is. And why this makes sense is that 565 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,600 not all of these assets that will exist on chain will have 566 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:18,520 the same liquidity profile or the same redemption time period 567 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,920 or or profile as well for some most of the assets that are 568 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,920 listed today. Their redemption profile is 569 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,280 really similar where you can go and swap the asset on a 570 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,440 secondary exchange and replace it and and you you created a 571 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,400 successful liquidation. The protocol is healthy, but in 572 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,320 more kind of like a real world assets of chain assets. 573 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,880 They might be, for example, a time period of like 2 windows a 574 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,800 day, once a day, every couple of days where an asset, for 575 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,400 example, the underlying assets, you can redeem it liquidated, 576 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,800 take the proceeds and return it to the protocol. 577 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:04,440 So these type of liquidation strategies allows to onboard 578 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,040 this type of assets where, for example, you have to, you have 579 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,840 some sort of like a time component involved. 580 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,520 And that's where I'm very excited about as well. 581 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,280 And of course, I combined that with the idea of segregated 582 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,120 bolts. It's quite appealing for an 583 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,120 institution to to consider using RV. 584 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,280 Yeah, absolutely. So Maker Dao also has a very 585 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:37,600 alive RWA offering. Can you, can you compare that to 586 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,320 kind of what you will be offering? 587 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,680 Yeah, I would say that most likely obviously depending on 588 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:54,160 what direction the DAO chooses on the RDBA to proceed with. 589 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,120 But I would say that there's going to be a lot of similar 590 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:03,280 profiling. But with the the with the aspect 591 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,480 of liquidation strategies that extends to new type of use cases 592 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,000 or things that for example didn't exist as a collateral. 593 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,760 Because you know, let's say in institutional context, Bitcoin 594 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,200 might be stuck somewhere in a custody for under 12 hour to 12 595 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,960 hours. So you can't liquidate right 596 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,560 away. So those kind of scenarios. 597 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,600 So I would say that's what we're trying to achieve is that 598 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,560 capturing the ability to technically support the existing 599 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:42,040 use cases in RWA operations, but at the same time innovating to 600 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:48,640 support anything that is new or assets that that they don't have 601 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:55,480 yet a a similar support in from like technical perspective. 602 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,760 So there's going to be a little bit of similarity, but hopefully 603 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,800 we see also new exciting use cases with RW as with with the 604 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,640 before. And obviously Go by itself is 605 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:14,000 really helpful because that's Go works in a way that there is 606 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,920 this concept of facilitators that can be created to to mint 607 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,840 go against some sort of strategy and that can be also real world 608 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,280 assets that can be anything that fits the Dow's risk profiling. 609 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,840 Yeah, well, I mean, maybe. Taking a step back on RW as a 610 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:39,200 little bit here, which asset classes do you think are most 611 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,760 likely to really take off in the next like 12 months and which of 612 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,320 those like you think will have a significant impact on Ave. 613 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,720 markets? I would expect treasuries to 614 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,720 keep growing and and see more initiatives to bring treasuries 615 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:04,120 on chain. I think there's a little bit of 616 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,040 slight stagnation of the growth because of the yield on chain is 617 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,920 higher than what Treasuries are providing at the moment. 618 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,520 But it provides a really nice diversification for anyone that 619 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:25,320 is holding a portfolio on chain, on chain yield portfolio, being 620 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,960 able to earn on treasuries, but also diversify their yield 621 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:36,680 sources and also risk profile. I think tokenization of money 622 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,960 market funds is going to be also a growing aspect. 623 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,800 BlackRock has been doing pretty nice job there with the the 624 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:53,080 middle tokenization and in a in a fund that they have. 625 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,240 So I would expect that coming quite a lot. 626 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,840 Centrifuge is is doing a great job on technician credit. 627 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,120 I mean, they're O GS in the space and keep always iterating 628 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,280 and and bringing new assets on chain. 629 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,000 So I, I think those type of short term depth instruments are 630 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,760 going to be quite popular for the next, I think 12 months. 631 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,600 OK, Stani, let's change gears a little bit. 632 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,240 So you guys expanded on to a number of EVM networks with 633 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,920 Arbor V3. In the Arbor V4 proposal, you 634 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,680 guys actually talk about expanding to non EVM networks as 635 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,880 well and kind of introducing a central hub for accessing Arbor 636 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,680 and Go. I think the rationale why you 637 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,440 guys want to do this, that's pretty clear to me. 638 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,720 But can you talk about how you think you're going to achieve 639 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,480 this? Yeah. 640 00:45:54,480 --> 00:46:00,400 So the way I think about it is that we'll see a lot of L twos 641 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,440 where they're growing their own ecosystem and need a financial 642 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,680 layer. And when you use a financial 643 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,120 layer, you need the usual suspects, obviously on the D5 644 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,560 side for for actually the technology infrastructure 645 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:24,680 execution in terms of ongoing support, but mainly of being 646 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,280 able to create a financial layer that supports whatever the use 647 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,640 cases are on those networks. The way I think about these L 648 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,080 twos and EVMS and non EVMEVMS is that they're kind of like 649 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,840 they're they're all their own cities or like countries or 650 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:46,560 operations and a lot of cities. They actually need banks, 651 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,680 financial infrastructure and to support everything they have in 652 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,160 their economy. And that has been the case with 653 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,680 Ave. so far. And we have community developers 654 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,600 that been able to deploy across multiple networks with these EDM 655 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,640 deployments, which have been like a really big expansion. 656 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:14,600 I mean, Ave. is is leading in, for example, in in base, which 657 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:19,200 is now focusing more and more defy and it's amazing to see 658 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,920 there also Coinbase bringing like more and more of like their 659 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,240 business or thinking at least towards an on chain feature to 660 00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:30,640 some extent. The way I think about non EV Ms. 661 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,920 is that it's kind of expansion, but obviously you have a 662 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,560 different tech stack. So which is good and and which 663 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,360 is also like creates complexity. So good parts is that there 664 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,280 might be things that are helpful for let's say D5 from security 665 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,920 standpoint for code implementation, but it's also a 666 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,760 new language, a new implementation that requires a 667 00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:01,280 lot of effort. And the way we think about 668 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,400 expansion is that we can go so far with Ed Miss, but there's 669 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:10,080 big communities around these deployments where which which 670 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,280 which exist in the non EDM ecosystems. 671 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,040 Obviously that means running codes from scratch. 672 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,920 And I think that's the way to think about it. 673 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,920 So we just have to think these implementations we we have now 674 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,560 are in EDM implementation and how to get it into a non EDM 675 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,480 implementation. And it's obviously it's not as 676 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:40,160 easy as copying, pasting, it's actually a work of trying to 677 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,600 figure out how to build in a completely new environment with 678 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,640 a new language and whether to make that type of effort in the 679 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,880 1st place. But I do think that's it's 680 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,520 really important to kind of like keep these options open and 681 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,840 treat non EDM ecosystem also as users that are coming into 682 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,600 space. And then obviously that bridges 683 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,920 into the wider of a ecosystem which direction to actually go. 684 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,760 There's also discussion whether obvious should be an L bond 685 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,360 because just in the matter of like DVL, there is, I personally 686 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,280 think that there is argumentation behind of that. 687 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:25,480 But I do think that obvious roots are on Ethereum and being 688 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,680 able to support the Ethereum ecosystem, have Ethereum 689 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:35,080 alignment is beneficial for for the Ave. protocol in the Orve 690 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,400 Tao. But there should be bridging 691 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,000 towards these newer communities that are also focusing on 692 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,360 onboarding newcomers. And we just want to win in the 693 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,040 sense that we get to see more of blockchain implemented into more 694 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,160 mainstream and seeing more users. 695 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,480 And I think that's how we think. But yeah, the hardest part is 696 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,280 actually fighting the code and ensuring it's safe. 697 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,640 Yeah, there's a, there's a lot I'd like to unpack there first, 698 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:06,680 maybe which ecosystems are are you guys like looking at as 699 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,400 potentially being your, your first steps outside of the EVM 700 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,880 ecosystem? We've looked quite a lot into 701 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:22,920 move based ecosystems and trust. So those are the the kind of 702 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:28,880 like a main areas and obviously that's where our head is at at 703 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,400 the moment. So it's actually where and I 704 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,480 think it's a lot where the future is going towards in, in 705 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:43,160 some sort of process direction. And we want to also ensure that 706 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,600 we have enough know how on trust, whether it's an 707 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:52,480 implementation or some sort of back end services we build and 708 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,720 kind of like a have that approach as well. 709 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,440 But yeah, I think there's going to be more information about 710 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,760 concrete plans of how we think about the expansion to no need 711 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,840 VMS. Right. 712 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,480 So it sounds like it it's, it's not simply just a kind of copy 713 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,280 paste deployment, but there's more thoughtful consideration as 714 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,320 to, you know, the specificities of those VMS because I mean on 715 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,200 like on movement, for example, movement does have like an EVM 716 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,200 interpreter that it converts down to move into the move op 717 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,480 codes. You guys are thinking about 718 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,040 actually rewriting the contracts in the native languages and 719 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,520 maybe making use of some of the unique features there on those 720 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,280 block chains? I think so, because the the 721 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,840 interesting part is that all these non EV Ms., they, they 722 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,760 decide to build non EV Ms. also because they have some sort of 723 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,400 concrete direction they want to take and they want to focus on 724 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:58,120 some sort of kind of like propeller in their ecosystem. 725 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,240 For some it might be for example, being able to get low 726 00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:06,000 cost on transactioning. Some might be for example 727 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,720 parallelization of transactions. Some might be that they have 728 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:15,080 benefits already of charting. Some might be just basically 729 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:20,120 certain type of activity in their ecosystem that is 730 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,280 basically tailored for somehow more consumer or mainstream. 731 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:30,800 I do think that Rust based and mood based approaches are 732 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,400 interesting and it provides really interesting tooling as 733 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,160 well from how to think about the actual implementations from a 734 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,080 security standpoint. So they all offer a little bit 735 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,080 their own peculiarities and it brings also a lot of complexity 736 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,880 at the same time, because we have to think from a complete 737 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,200 new perspective of these implementations, specularities 738 00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:57,920 of the the non AVM and environments and, and the 739 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,720 changes we have to do. And all they isn't really the 740 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:06,920 most simplest protocol. It's really quite an 741 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,200 architecture and and and and and it's a lot of work. 742 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,520 Yeah. No, I, I can, I can see how that 743 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,160 would be a lot of work to, to rewrite all those contracts and, 744 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:23,000 and roster move or some of the language coming back to this, 745 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,480 you know, the, the sovereignty topic. 746 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,600 I'm really quite curious to understand how you're thinking 747 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,680 about this here, because Ave. has become one of the largest 748 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,440 protocols in Etherium, largest lending protocol by far in, in 749 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,760 all of crypto. Yet, you know, the cost of using 750 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:44,520 Etherium for for users and, and the the sort of, you know, 751 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,560 challenges that you guys need to deal with regards to MEV and and 752 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:54,080 and other issues that come with using a generalized purpose 753 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,400 chain. You know, could easily be solved 754 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,480 by building your own chain, which would allow you to have 755 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,800 specific policies around how you capture every VE doing things 756 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,120 like on chain Oracle's and like all these other kind of support 757 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,000 functions that evaluators that provides. 758 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,440 You know, DYDX went down this this this path. 759 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,640 I don't know what the kind of status of the maker chain idea 760 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,800 or I know at some point they had discussed maybe doing the maker 761 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,720 chain. So like, yeah, just maybe 762 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:27,760 getting your thoughts on like how you think about sovereignty 763 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:33,840 for Ave. and like what that means, you know, as as being 764 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,000 sort of a theorem aligned what that means for the protocol. 765 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,720 Yeah, obviously I think Ave. as a community is always kind of 766 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:48,960 like more towards of a line and doing whatever is best for the 767 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:54,040 of a community and and the the future of this protocol and its 768 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,920 principles obviously like creating more access to finance 769 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,600 transparency and and just better execution. 770 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:10,960 And I do think that's if there is of a network which is in in 771 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,280 the plans. And the question is whether that 772 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,600 is what kind of file to what kind of differences. 773 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:23,200 It really creates an amazing design space because I do think 774 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:28,200 that assets should actually yield how wherever users are 775 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,520 holding them. So users can subscribe to 776 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,000 certain type of phrase score choose not to. 777 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,880 And being able to have a have a network, it actually means that 778 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,320 there are a lot of benefits where the network can be tweak 779 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:51,080 and adjust it towards being very driven by D Defi behavior and 780 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,080 transactioning. And I think that's a really 781 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,760 powerful thing to do. I I do think that whatever the 782 00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,640 orbit out chooses in terms of like an implementation, I do 783 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,760 think that even that design space should be as simplistic as 784 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,720 possible. And just to prove what actually 785 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:14,880 AD 5 specific of a network as a liquidity hub can actually do 786 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,640 and benefit for the users, especially the newcomers that 787 00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:21,680 don't really mind or care about it specifically what network 788 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,240 they are, but wants to tap into a good brand and A and a good 789 00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,840 product. And with the cross chain 790 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,720 liquidity layer benefit from all these movements between 791 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,240 deployments of Arbeit across different networks. 792 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,960 So what I think is going to be fascinating is to figure out 793 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:46,800 that delta and design space that is going to be really powerful 794 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,960 for the ABA users and the whole ecosystem here. 795 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,240 And I think there's a lot of benefits that could be created 796 00:56:55,560 --> 00:57:00,680 within our ABA network. So zooming out, when you think 797 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:05,120 about D file or open file and so however we'll call it then in 798 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:11,120 the 2030, what will that look like and how will others role 799 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:17,720 look like within that ecosystem? Yeah, I would say that's, it's a 800 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,440 great question. I think the idea of the ARBE 801 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:28,480 2030 proposal, which essentially includes a completely new brand 802 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:34,440 identity, you know, taking ARBE into a more kind of like 803 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:41,040 approachable fresh look with the V4, bringing new innovation, 804 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:46,960 bringing a lot of flexibility, module architecture, pace, not 805 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:52,920 only a good way to build iterations, but also support 806 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,600 institutions as well coming into the space. 807 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,840 And I think that's what's going to happen over the next years 808 00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:06,000 and obviously of a net for bringing efficiency and to the 809 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:11,320 whole kind of like organization of capital and TBL across these 810 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,640 networks with cross chain liquidity layer. 811 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:18,680 I think just looking the upcoming years, we have to have 812 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:25,160 infrastructure that is actually really, really ready for 813 00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,000 adoption. And, and I'm thinking about 814 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,960 mainstream adoption, institutional adoption and being 815 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,760 just a infrastructure that can be used in many different ways 816 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:41,480 with all the, with all the Dow or whatever that particular use 817 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,240 case is. So I I think that the idea here 818 00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:51,160 is that DFI is definitely, you know, better way to organize 819 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,560 finance and financial infrastructure, but it will take 820 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,920 a decade to actually mature because it just needs that 821 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:02,840 maturity to scale. And then thinking about the 822 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:10,560 overlaps role, we want to build the things that we, we, we think 823 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,480 are necessary. The overdow is growing. 824 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,800 There's more contributors there, technically technical and 825 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,600 non-technical contributors. It's probably most interesting 826 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:27,160 Dallas out there at the moment all the way from from the early 827 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,280 D 5 days. So effectively, hopefully the 828 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,560 other labs kind of like moves more towards other types of 829 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:39,680 initiatives that might be supportive for the Dow or the 830 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,480 other ecosystem. But the actual technical 831 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,040 architecture is solved to the point that if there is any 832 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,480 changes in the future that needs to be made, they can be done 833 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,160 very locally without upgrading the whole system. 834 00:59:54,640 --> 01:00:00,360 I think a lot of inspiration of, of the Linux ecosystem, kind of 835 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,520 like whole way of how things work in Linux Foundation and how 836 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,760 different people can work on different parts and being able 837 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,280 to kind of achieve that. Where student team can focus on 838 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,320 optimizing liquidation strategies, certain teams can be 839 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,320 focusing on improving borough modules and and so forth. 840 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,000 I, I think that's the kind of like a big vision here and 841 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,120 obviously governance minimization. 842 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,560 To the extent that governance can be really much an overhead 843 01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,840 and I think when it becomes an overhead it, it removes the kind 844 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:41,120 of design to to to people what we basically try to go away 845 01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:45,960 from. And as of a matures, some of 846 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,920 these parameters can be immutable dataline and reduce 847 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,200 that governance overhead. So I think that's the kind of 848 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,120 future I would love to see. How do you see the future of 849 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:01,320 stablecoins evolve? I think it's a price point 850 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,480 question. So they lower the price point 851 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,520 the more adoption we see and also the UX tooling. 852 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:14,680 I actually think that's for stablecoins especially to get 853 01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,960 it, getting them into payments, a validio might be a really good 854 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,440 option because you can hit a really low price point for the 855 01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,240 transaction costs, which is amazing. 856 01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,000 And with things like smart wallets kind of obstruction, 857 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,320 embedded wallets, even you can, you can have an experience that 858 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,440 is really smooth. Stable coins have taken adoption 859 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,240 in places where there's a lot of uncertainty. 860 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,320 Argentina is a really great example where stable coins have 861 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,960 taken adoption and there's numerous other examples in I 862 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,600 mean, in general, they work better. 863 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,840 Like it's so amazing to send someone go and, and then seeing 864 01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,520 it on chain directly that it the transaction landed. 865 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,680 You don't need to deal with banks and figure out whether 866 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,640 someone received whatever part of this. 867 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,240 It's just that kind of like the middle where we're like the the 868 01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,800 ends, the, the, the the ends of the whole stock is, is where 869 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,200 it's broken. The off boarding on boarding. 870 01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,400 When once we solve that, I think we will see a lot of stable coin 871 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,920 adoption and especially in. Payments. 872 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,480 So when talking about adoption, you know, one thing that I think 873 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:33,840 about is just the, the, the, the demographics or the, the kind of 874 01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:38,720 persona of crypto and DFI users. I think it's safe to say that 875 01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:44,520 the majority of liquidity in DFI markets today are crypto native 876 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:48,680 users and institutions. But we haven't, I don't think 877 01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:54,360 we've seen so much crypto native institutional capital using 878 01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,960 Defy. And I think that I feel like 879 01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:03,880 there's a lot of potential here for crypto institutional debt to 880 01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:08,680 enter Defy markets, specifically in the context of restaking 881 01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,440 where protocol on liquidity will be very useful to build out the 882 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:18,840 the restaking kind of market, you know, when it comes to 883 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:24,160 protocol on liquidity and creating a more fluid market for 884 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,920 for that liquidity. You know, a lot of those deal, a 885 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,480 lot of these deals now are I think are being done kind of, 886 01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:33,600 you know, manually with multi Sags or perhaps even without 887 01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,400 multi sags. What's the role that lending 888 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:43,640 markets like Ave. might play in allowing a lot more crypto 889 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,680 native institutional capital to enter lending markets? 890 01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:55,640 This is a really, really fascinating question because 891 01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,080 institutions usually have their own kind of fun needs and 892 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:07,280 requirements, and we're still in a phase where the markets in D5 893 01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:13,600 aren't clear or strong enough for institutions to draw more 894 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:19,680 and more attention into it. And for me to explain what I am 895 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:26,520 saying is that if D fight is overly appealing as a market and 896 01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,680 there is enough clarity, how do you track with D fighters 897 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,600 tooling and everything. It's basically that the 898 01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:40,040 insertion adoption will come just basically from from from as 899 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:46,920 a market opportunity. And what I think is we're in a 900 01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,640 stage where institutions are describing kind of like their 901 01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:55,120 own preferences and needs and figuring out with their 902 01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,480 compliance teams and figuring out with their own kind of like 903 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,120 teams of how to manage, you know, funds, custody risk and 904 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:09,560 various types of new risks. Because DFI is a leapfrog 905 01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,560 technology from existing financial technology that we 906 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,240 have. It's just is so much advanced 907 01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,960 what we have and I do think that people will still do paper 908 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:28,960 agreements, people will do a lot of simple boring stuff in closed 909 01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:34,000 doors of chain, but it's really creates a a unique kind of like 910 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:40,200 a global borderless market. So once we hit to a a point 911 01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:45,400 where we have more institutions doing this experimentations with 912 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,640 their own kind of requirements in collaborating with D5 913 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,880 projects, like for example of it, maybe we see more and more 914 01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,960 excitement around the space and more education. 915 01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:02,120 But I do think that once we hit into a point where the risk 916 01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:06,440 profiling is acceptable and maturity is acceptable for 917 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,120 institutions, we're just going to see more and more kind of 918 01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,920 like an inflow. And obviously the more clear it 919 01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,360 is on how to interact from regulation perspective, from 920 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:20,280 tooling perspective, that will help quite a lot. 921 01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:25,320 So now we are in between where we see the most bravest, the 922 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,920 smartest in institutions, the big brains actually hear and 923 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:34,640 defy and trying things out, building and experimenting. 924 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:41,240 But we don't yet see actual this kind of like a high inflow. 925 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,560 But I do think that will happen over time. 926 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,160 That's why I I mentioned earlier that it it will take a decade 927 01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:56,280 for Defy to get adoption. Well, as we're nearing the end 928 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,760 of the podcast here, we've been we've gone a little bit long. 929 01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:04,480 I do want to just maybe circle back to this before proposal, 930 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:11,040 which I think you mentioned earlier is has passed and that 931 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,920 that the payload will be going on chain as we're recording this 932 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,680 on on July 1st. What's the next steps here and 933 01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,720 how can the Avenue community get involved? 934 01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:25,720 And yeah, what what's your call to action to to the community? 935 01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:31,840 Yeah. So we are essentially building 936 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:36,240 at the moment. So our work has started and our 937 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,120 goal is obviously to to give ongoing monthly reports to the 938 01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,840 to the ABBA Dow and and explain the progress. 939 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:50,280 And we collaborate quite a lot with existing Dow participants 940 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:54,680 and and service providers interest brainstorming and and 941 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,000 different areas. So I do think naturally 942 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,840 organically some of these service providers or Dow members 943 01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,120 will going to contribute to the V4. 944 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,400 And obviously once the actual implementation is done, the 945 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,000 security contributors we're going to contribute and then the 946 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,400 risk contributors will contribute as well. 947 01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:18,120 Whereas they have to set different type of parameters, a 948 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:22,000 lot of these different strategies as well and kind of 949 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:26,479 like the the economical pieces together and get ratifications 950 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,760 from the Dow. So yeah, it's kind of like a 951 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:36,160 heads down type of face for us, but we're super excited about 952 01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:41,319 this because hopefully this moves all the further in terms 953 01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:44,880 of innovation, institutional adoption, but also brings just 954 01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,000 better, better tools and infrastructure for for everyone 955 01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,080 using D5. So we're super, super excited 956 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:58,520 about this and also nice to see that the orbit out has a lot of 957 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,760 blessing for us on on this proposal and we're able to do 958 01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,920 this and and build it. So it's really appreciated. 959 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:10,120 Cool. Well, Sonny, thanks so much for 960 01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:14,279 coming on the podcast once again and learned a lot today about 961 01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:15,399 Ave. V4. 962 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:21,319 Excited to see Ave. moving more into a cross chain, multi chain 963 01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:25,160 world and and definitely like pushing the boundaries of of 964 01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,439 defy innovation. So, yeah, thanks once again and 965 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,319 hopefully we can get you back on in a couple of months when Ave. 966 01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,720 V4 is deployed and you know, we'll have ample questions I 967 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,160 think about about the progress there. 968 01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:44,200 Yeah, definitely. Maybe takes more than a couple 969 01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,040 of months, but hopefully we have a test net by then. 970 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,319 No pressure for us. Good, fantastic. 971 01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:56,000 Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this 972 01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,360 week's episode. We release new episodes every 973 01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:00,400 week. You can find and subscribe to 974 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:04,120 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 975 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,560 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 976 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:09,320 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 977 01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:13,320 the Epicenter podcast. 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