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This is epicenter Bitcoin 
episode 99 with guests manual 

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arrows, and Esteban or Dano. 
This episode of epicenter 

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Bitcoin is brought to you by hi 
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Hi, welcome to epicenter Bitcoin
the show. 

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It's talks about the 
Technologies, projects and 

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starts driving decentralization 
and the global crude Currency 

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Revolution. 
My name is Sebastian, cuju and I

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met Roy. 
Today, we are joined by two at a

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pair of talented developers, 
from Argentina. 

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They have worked on many 
projects. 

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Some of them are quite 
well-known in the Bitcoin 

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industry. 
These projects are proof of 

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existence streamium Paradigm, 
and D Central, and we are going 

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to talk about their projects and
the prospects of Bitcoin and 

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Argentina to introduce our 
guests, they are manual or outs.

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And Esteban, oh Don. 
Oh, we are very happy to have 

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you on The Show, manual. 
And Esther one. 

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Hamer, thanks for having us. 
We're glad to be here. 

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Hi. 
Thanks a lot for having us here.

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Okay, so so perhaps we could 
start with Bitcoin in Argentina 

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because there's this impression 
in the in the Bitcoin media that

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Argentina is the one country 
which could adopt Bitcoin and 

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and jumpstart a jumpstart 
Bitcoin, and LeapFrog ahead of 

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all the other nations in this 
technology. 

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What's your opinion on that? 
Yeah, it's actually pretty funny

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to us to read all those articles
claiming Argentina is like the 

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center for Bitcoin, and where 
Bitcoin is growing faster than 

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it's actually not quite true. 
As I always tell everyone, 

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Argentina is kind of a good, a 
good spot in many ways for 

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Bitcoin because our local 
currency is really, really bad. 

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And there are big Capital 
controls and it's hard to Get 

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foreign currencies but actually 
I do option is is pretty slow 

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and I would say Bitcoin is 
growing much faster and other 

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option is much wider in other 
countries. 

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So I wouldn't say Argentina is 
the, the best place for Bitcoin 

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right now. 
It's and it's actually I read 

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many things in news articles 
that are totally, not true about

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Argentina Bitcoin. 
So be careful about that. 

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But at the same time, the 
development seen in Argentina is

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quite good. 
There are many companies and 

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cool projects that are springing
from Argentina so that kind of 

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counterbalances the low usage of
Bitcoin in general. 

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And how, I mean, I think one 
thing that has been pretty 

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consistent is the Argentinian 
governments attempts to sort of 

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stop Bitcoin from perfect 
proliferating in Argentina 

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regardless of whether or not 
it's being used. 

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How are those startups coping 
with that? 

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Yeah. 
Actually the the Argentinian 

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government is not is not 
actively working against 

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Bitcoin, I wouldn't say that 
there was The only official 

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communication or action about 
Bitcoin was a posting by the 

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Central Bank warning, the the 
population about Bitcoin not 

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being minted by the by the 
government like saying, okay, be

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careful with this, because we 
don't regulate Bitcoin. 

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We don't regulate its emission, 
so be careful and that's about 

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it. 
As far as I know, I'm not a 

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legal expert but it's actually, 
More or less friendly 

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environment for Bitcoin 
companies in Argentina. 

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So we've been duped by all those
corn desk articles telling us 

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that that Argentina is like so 
much stuff. 

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Having internet Argentina. 
That is like the you know, the 

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next the next place where 
Bitcoin was going to be 

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developed when in fact is just 
like anywhere else. 

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Well as if ya as it down was 
saying, I think there are some 

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really good developers working 
on on the technology side and 

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there are some interesting 
companies down there too. 

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But as far as What we read at 
least about adoption how it's 

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the perfect ecosystem and that 
we will get millions of users. 

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I think that's not going to 
happen. 

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I mean it's not going to happen 
in Argentina first at least 

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Okay, well, let's let's talk 
about you guys background a 

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little bit. 
It seems like you've both been 

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working together for so long and
you've been together on many 

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different projects. 
Tell us a bit about how you both

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got into Bitcoin. 
So we've been working on 

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Bitcoins and since like two or 
three years ago Manuel started 

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on this. 
We actually have a chat 

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conversation back in that time. 
Trying to finish organized a 

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Bitcoin development meet up. 
Then manually went out to create

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proof of existence. 
I was doing, I was working at 

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Google some point out. 
And that there and we when 

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another train is Big Bay, I 
joined a few months later and 

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that's when we started working 
together in this space. 

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We already met each other from 
college. 

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We're actually pretty good 
friends from many years ago from

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college. 
I as it turns out we were at 

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first interested in Bitcoin, 
like, from from the side, we 

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were not working with it, but we
chat about it, then I did Proof 

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existence as a small experiment.
It turned out to be pretty well 

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received in the community. 
So after that I was unemployed. 

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So I started doing freelance 
work for Bitcoin companies 

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mainly or trying to work with 
Bitcoin given that I had asthma.

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Experience with that. 
And it was really interesting in

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the technical side and after 
working for a year and a half in

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a sock with Consulting in 
Bitcoin, I met Tony from bitpay 

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and I joined there and a few 
months later I convinced that 

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Steven and a couple of other 
friends to join and we'll be 

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working there on all the, all 
these projects you mentioned 

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extremely impera, damned 
essential. 

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And we also collaborated on bit 
core Building B core which is 

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the A source, JavaScript 
library, for Bitcoin 

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applications, as part of the 
open source initiative by bit 

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by. 
So so some maybe with that we 

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could go into discussing your 
your new project streamium. 

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So for the for our listeners 
that have never tried streaming 

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more heard of it could, you 
could you describe what it does?

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And who it is meant for? 
Yeah, sure. 

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So streamium is a live streaming
application that uses Bitcoin 

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payment channels are some more 
money. 

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Station option. 
So it started off as a hackathon

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project between seven friends. 
It's actually the team is quite 

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big. 
We it was a group that we used 

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to get together in during the 
weekends. 

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For we call them Bitcoin 
dinners. 

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We got together and talked about
latest news about Bitcoin, what 

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we saw about the future. 
And after a, while we got bored 

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about just talk Talking, because
most of us are developers or 

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work with technology. 
So we want to do actually do 

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something one of the guys 
suggested doing a hackathon. 

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So we got together on a weekend 
than started. 

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It was actually Stevens idea to 
build swimming. 

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We were talking a lot about 
payment channels and we wanted 

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to build an application. 
That was interesting in the 

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sense that it shows the real 
value of payment channels as a 

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protocol So we built it over a 
couple of weekends and we 

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launched it several months later
because it was super slow 

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development in our free time. 
That's the story. 

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So what it basically does is it 
allows a user to record 

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something and stream it live and
stream it life and in exchange 

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receive payments through through
Bitcoin, Bitcoin micro payment 

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channels. 
So maybe we could discuss part 

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of the architecture of off 
streamium, then, there are two 

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important sections to it. 
One is, how does the money flow 

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and the second is how Does it 
data flow and could you explain 

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how both of these things happen?
When I create my own streamium 

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stream? 
Yes, of course. 

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So stream use is webrtc which is
a decentralized peer-to-peer 

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protocol so browsers can talk to
each other. 

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We are currently relying on 
print, the Vu server so that 

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browsers can create the 
connections between each other. 

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And with that, we were to see 
connection. 

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You can send both data and the 
video. 

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What do you see The capability 
of sending data so they can 

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negotiate a Bitcoin payment 
Channel. 

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And this is actually I think 
it's the first implementation of

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a payment channel for some kind 
of like real world usage once 

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that payment channel is 
established. 

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The video streaming starts and 
it's broadcasting mechanism. 

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So if If I'm broadcasting my 
video every body that is 

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receiving be, the video will 
have to be paying me through a 

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payment channel. 
So from a from a technical 

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standpoint, it's a Well it's not
fully fully decentralized, we 

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have, I will say that they got 
just in a second but both the 

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video goes through a 
peer-to-peer protocol and 

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underpayments because payments 
grow through Bitcoin payment 

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channels, which will know is 
decentralized pregnancy. 

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The, the video goes through 
webrtc, which is a peer-to-peer 

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protocol for the browser and the
the to the two points of 

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centralization are what Esther 
mentioned? 

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The Rendezvous server were 
Pierce can get the other Pierce 

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information for Discovery and of
course the the static HTML 

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server that serves the files for
the client to run the 

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application. 
Okay, so could you describe The 

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payment channels and how they 
work in more detail. 

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So a payment channel is kind of 
like opening a tap in a bar. 

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You set a certain amount of 
money that it's the maximum that

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you want to spend in that 
payment Channel and you lock 

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those funds in a true of to 
others. 

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So this 2 of 2 is controlled by 
both parties in the payment 

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channel. 
So any transaction that gets 

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signed will have to have the 
Approval of both parties and 

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there is a time lock mechanism. 
In, in case I funded this 

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payment Channel, but the other 
party that is going to be 

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receiving. 
The funds will not be willing to

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sign a section, giving back all 
the funds. 

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So, after a day, you can recover
all your videos. 

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Is that clear enough? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, but so in, so if I 
understand those two, in this 

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case, what you're doing is 
you're doing it to of to Transit

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multicenter transaction. 
The, the person that's doing the

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streaming will have incentive to
to sign that. 

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But so for the for the viewer so
they were anywhere is forces him

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to the won. 
The reward is the one that will 

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fund the channel. 
We usually call them technically

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the Consumer and the provider of
the service. 

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So the consumer funds the 
channel and asks, the provider 

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for the signal transaction that 
becomes valid the next day so he

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can have the fund of funds back 
if the protocol gets interrupted

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interrupted. 
Okay, so once the stream is an 

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is initiated, the consumer has 
already signed his part of the 

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transaction and is waiting for 
the provider to sign his part of

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the transaction. 
Yes, he actually does. 

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Is this, he signs a transaction 
and he waits for the provider to

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sign a transaction. 
A second transaction spending 

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that first two of to paint to, 
to virtue of to address 

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transaction. 
It's kind of like complicated, I

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would need a black border to 
explain it. 

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So, Well, that's okay because 
this is a podcast. 

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So people don't necessarily see 
if they're not watching the 

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video that I'm going to see it 
anyway. 

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But and so the the payment 
channel is opened and then so 

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there's a payment for every 
chunk of let's say, 30 seconds 

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of video. 
How does that work? 

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How do you, how does the money 
keep flowing. 

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All right, so as sending an 
update of the payment Channel, 

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which means spending a little 
bit more, The from those locket 

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funds. 
When I send one of these small 

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micro payments to the provider 
of the service, he will send me 

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back the video right now in 
streaming, what we are using, is

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we interrupt the video, if the 
payment flow stops coming and if

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the video stops coming, we 
interrupt the payment flow. 

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So it's a trustless solution for
payments. 

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So basically could we say it 
like this suppose, it's me me, 

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the creator of the video and 
Esteban is the consumer. 

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I'm the producer and Esteban is 
the consumer. 

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Then what is happening, is when 
I start my stream, Nothing 

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happens. 
Now when you want to, when you 

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want to, when you want to see my
stream, then you will send your 

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Bitcoins into a multi signature 
address that is controlled by 

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you and me jointly, right? 
Yes. 

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And so now, so so basically, 
when the service started, you 

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agree to watch the service for a
maximum of one hour and then 

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let's say the price of that one 
hour is $50. 

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00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:07,800
Our. 
So you log $50 worth of bitcoin 

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00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:13,100
into a into a into an address, 
which is jointly controlled by 

233
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:18,000
you and me now. 
Now, what now what starts to 

234
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,500
happen is there has to be data 
that needs to go from my webcam 

235
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:26,500
because I am the producer to 
your your terminal. 

236
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:32,500
So with each item of data, let's
say like there's a there's a 

237
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:34,900
there's a big packet that that 
has 30. 

238
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,600
The 30 seconds of video. 
So corresponding to the transfer

239
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,500
of that item, that packet of 
data, from my computer to yours,

240
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:48,100
you need to send me a 
transaction, which allows me to 

241
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,200
claim part of the funds that 
were locked into the multi 

242
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,800
signature account, right? 
Yeah. 

243
00:16:53,800 --> 00:17:00,900
That's that's correct. 
And we it doesn't have to be 30 

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00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:04,099
seconds. 
It can be one second, it could 

245
00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:10,599
be one minute. 
It and you may want to be sure 

246
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,000
that you have a certain margin 
of error. 

247
00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:18,099
So you don't stop the video 
because you didn't receive the 

248
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:22,800
payment so it's actually more 
like a flow of video from one in

249
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,599
one connect, in one way and a 
flow of payments in the other 

250
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,800
way. 
Okay, so the question is, I 

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00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,100
start to have here is let's say 
let's say I am I am creating a 

252
00:17:34,108 --> 00:17:39,300
stream and I have already 
created this multi signature 

253
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:41,600
account with Esteban because 
it's the one is watching my 

254
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,900
stream now. 
Manual joints Manuel wants to 

255
00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:47,700
see my Stream, So I create 
another account with manual and 

256
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,700
then Sebastian wants to join. 
There's a third one created. 

257
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,200
Is it the case that I am 
broadcasting? 

258
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,300
My video data to all three of 
you through webrtc. 

259
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,400
She wouldn't that need a lot of 
bandwidth on my side. 

260
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,000
Yes, you are constrained by the 
amount of bandwidth the your 

261
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,400
Upstream connection has. 
So if you want to have many 

262
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,000
users, let's say I guess that 
more than 10 will start to 

263
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:24,100
really stress the connection. 
You may want to look into 

264
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:30,100
another a different solutions, 
some kind of like First cast to 

265
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,300
server. 
That will then broadcast the 

266
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:38,300
video to a lot of users or maybe
use a more decentralized 

267
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:42,200
solution like BitTorrent for the
distribution of the video, 

268
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,800
right? 
Let's take a short break to talk

269
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,700
about a brand new sponsors. 
Hide dot me personally been 

270
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:51,800
using them for about a year, so 
I'm really excited to have them 

271
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,400
on, you know, we sometimes take 
our privacy and security online 

272
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,400
for granted. 
I know that I did, I often tell 

273
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,500
people if you use public Wi-Fi, 
you might as well assume that 

274
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:03,500
your data has been compromised 
in some way. 

275
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:05,300
There's so many ways people can 
attack you nowadays. 

276
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,500
I mean, if you're using website 
that isn't SSL, people can on 

277
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,500
the same network as you can, 
pretty much see anything that 

278
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:15,000
you're doing on the website and 
even SSL websites like your 

279
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,100
bank. 
It's social media or Bitcoin 

280
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,800
wallets. 
For example, can be vulnerable 

281
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,100
to certain types of attacks. 
So, you know, as a Bitcoin user 

282
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,200
in your office, or in a 
co-working space, or like, if 

283
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,000
you're a public Wi-Fi, someone 
could potentially Target. 

284
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,500
You just based specifically on 
the websites that you visit, you

285
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:33,600
want to protect yourself against
that and to do that, you need 

286
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,800
hide that me hide me. 
Gives you an encrypted 

287
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,500
connection between your device 
and their network of servers. 

288
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,700
So, attackers and even your eyes
be have no idea what you're 

289
00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:44,600
doing this all happens. 
Over super fast gigabit 

290
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,200
Ethernet, suppose know, Eggs. 
And you have an encrypted tunnel

291
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,100
there, which protects you. 
And in addition to that, hide me

292
00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:52,900
keeps no logs of any of your 
activity. 

293
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,400
And the great thing about how I 
taught me is that they have a 

294
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,100
free plan, the free plan gives 
you up to two gigabytes of data 

295
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,500
per month that on struggled 
bandwidth, and that's just 

296
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:05,100
enough. 
So you can protect yourself 

297
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:08,000
whenever you use a cafe, when 
you're traveling, you're on an 

298
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,600
airplane, in an airport or use 
any public Wi-Fi spot, and you 

299
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,400
can sign up and get that free. 
Count, when you go to height up,

300
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,400
me / epicenter, the great thing 
too is that if you ever decide 

301
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,100
later to get a premium account, 
then signing up with, that URL 

302
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:28,400
is going to get you 35% off the 
premier account, includes 

303
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,900
unlimited bandwidth access to 
all their servers worldwide and 

304
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:36,800
they've got lots of them and it 
also lets you connect up to five

305
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,500
devices simultaneously use on 
your mobile phone and with all 

306
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:44,600
your devices and of course, you 
can pay with Bitcoin. 

307
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:47,800
Now, we'd like to, Welcome. 
Hi to me as a new sponsor 

308
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,400
excited what they're doing and 
of course, we would like to 

309
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,000
thank them for their support of 
epson Bitcoin. 

310
00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,100
So, I guess this is sort of a 
structural problem with webrtc 

311
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:05,700
is that it's it's a peer-to-peer
only protocol. 

312
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,600
Now, you mentioned BitTorrent. 
That's interesting because we 

313
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:16,900
had thought about different ways
that you could scale webrtc. 

314
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,600
And I guess this would not only 
apply to what you're doing and 

315
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,600
sort of the, you know, Bitcoin 
micropayments space. 

316
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,100
But also So could be potentially
used for your large-scale webrtc

317
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:36,300
broadcasts, by just about anyone
is by using BitTorrent or 

318
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,200
perhaps ipfs or some other 
distributed file sharing 

319
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,700
protocol to stream. 
Video has that does that already

320
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:46,000
exists as I've been done before,
or is this something that you're

321
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,600
looking into for streamium? 
Well actually, one of the other 

322
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,700
premium developers, his name is 
Chemin. 

323
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,100
He did a small experiment about 
that. 

324
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:59,400
We had the same idea and key he 
wanted to test it out and it 

325
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,400
actually worked pretty well but 
while not pretty well it could 

326
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:09,400
work but it was hard to make it 
perform well talking about video

327
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,800
live video quality. 
So there are some complications 

328
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,000
where you're dealing with a live
stream of video and we were 

329
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,900
having like because torrents are
predetermined size files because

330
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:28,600
you need to check the the file 
integrity and it has, it's not 

331
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,400
it's not designed to stream 
files. 

332
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,000
So you have some problems when 
you're connecting, several 

333
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:44,100
chunks of video and it's also as
Esteban pointed out in live 

334
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:46,400
streaming, you can drop some 
frames and it's fine. 

335
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,700
But the BitTorrent protocol, 
doesn't support, that kind of 

336
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:53,600
stuff, you need to unload the 
whole file. 

337
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,400
So, We caught some pretty 
successful experiments with 

338
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,200
that, but there are still a lot 
of work to be done to optimize 

339
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,700
the protocol and allow other 
ways to distribute the video 

340
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,900
without relying on, on the 
provider to share the same video

341
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,000
to everyone. 
And just, I mean, is this 

342
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,700
something that has been 
addressed? 

343
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,400
Like, I mean, the, the problem 
of streaming live video to a 

344
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:27,800
large audience Without having to
rely on some centralized 

345
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000
third-party, like you stream or 
something like that. 

346
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,800
Is just something that has been 
addressed, or perhaps we have 

347
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:38,200
actual solutions for outside of 
what you guys are doing. 

348
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:43,700
Not that I'm aware of, but it 
will be interesting to see if 

349
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:49,700
there's a Distributive 
peer-to-peer version of the real

350
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:52,400
time protocol, which is what 
we're RTC. 

351
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:59,800
And I meant Skype or all those 
Solutions, use, it's either RTP 

352
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:07,600
or X h.263 or 363 or something. 
I don't remember the name. 

353
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:12,300
It could be a really cool 
experiment to build something on

354
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:14,900
that. 
But I mean, if you guys 

355
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:18,200
successfully do this with bit 
torrent, I essentially be the 

356
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,400
first to achieve that, right? 
Yeah. 

357
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,400
We actually don't know if 
there's another brush egg doing 

358
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,400
Something similar, we should 
look it up. 

359
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,400
But as I told you what's what it
worked, like, as a proof of 

360
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,800
concept body, it still needs a 
lot of work to actually work 

361
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:39,900
correctly. 
You will need to polish the 

362
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:42,600
protocol in many ways and I 
don't think the best solution is

363
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,100
to use. 
BitTorrent based on the things I

364
00:24:46,108 --> 00:24:50,400
mentioned earlier. 
But maybe building a specific 

365
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:56,700
protocol for this could work. 
Another question is doesn't the 

366
00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:01,100
doesn't the fact that Bitcoin 
need confirmations to confirm a 

367
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:05,200
Bitcoin transaction one needs 
one hour and zero confirmation 

368
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,400
transactions are are not secure?
Doesn't it impede impede 

369
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,300
streamium in any way like for 
example if I if me and Esteban 

370
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:17,600
won't do, launch this stream, 
then esteban's money needs to be

371
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,900
locked in this to of to multi 
signature account and the 

372
00:25:20,908 --> 00:25:24,400
process of that locking to be 
Needs one hour. 

373
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:29,700
So, how how does it work out? 
Well, if I try to double spend 

374
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:34,600
you. 
So right now streaming uses 

375
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,200
several confirmations by block 
Cipher. 

376
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:44,800
And we are using the confidence 
in transaction parameter from 

377
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:52,800
them because the threat model is
quite quite low on restrictions.

378
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,400
If like the worst thing that 
could happen for you is that I 

379
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,900
can watch. 
Ouch, a few seconds of video 

380
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:04,300
from you because the stream 
right now when that it detects a

381
00:26:04,308 --> 00:26:08,200
double spend, it will cut the 
channel off. 

382
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:17,100
So you could be stolen of a few 
seconds of content from me, but 

383
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:20,100
that's kind of like the worst 
that could happen tearing me in 

384
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,900
on your side, will take care of 
that and if the transaction gets

385
00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:27,800
confirmed, then it will stop 
checking for double Spencer. 

386
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,700
Stuff like that. 
Okay. 

387
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:35,100
So so basically what you're 
saying is that when when I'm 

388
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:38,300
trying to create the stream, 
there is a risk of double spins,

389
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,200
but the value at risk is very 
low. 

390
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,700
So, for example, if I'm, if I'm 
taking, if I'm charging $10, an 

391
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:50,900
hour for a stream and you do a 
double spin, maybe it's the case

392
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:55,400
that you saw two point five 
dollars worth of video and and I

393
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,600
didn't get paid for it. 
Besides we managed to 

394
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,400
successfully double double spend
and probably Even less because 

395
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,300
right now block Cipher the 
moment. 

396
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:10,700
It detects in any any 
transaction anywhere it will 

397
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,800
report that and streaming on 
your side will say no. 

398
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,200
Hey, this guy is trying to make 
a double spend, so let's stop 

399
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,000
the video. 
Right now, today's magic word is

400
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:27,100
stream. 
Stre am head over. 

401
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:30,100
Let's talk patreon.com to sign 
in, enter the magic word. 

402
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,400
Work and claim your part of the 
listener award. 

403
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,500
So what is the monetization 
model for a, for a service such 

404
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:45,700
as for a service such as 
streamium? 

405
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,000
Are you looking to monetize it 
in any way? 

406
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,400
Yet. 
So sue me, we saw is an open 

407
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,500
source and free brochure. 
Anyone can use it for free. 

408
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,700
There's no charge. 
I mean, the the strimmer charges

409
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:03,100
the Their audience but to use 
the the product is completely 

410
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:05,900
free. 
There is no fees, we're not 

411
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:08,400
playing. 
We're not planning to to 

412
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:14,300
monetize the monetize it in any 
way, we had some ideas of doing 

413
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,500
like a separate service that 
allows streamers to Increase 

414
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:23,000
their their potential audience. 
Based on the scalability 

415
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,100
problems, we already discussed. 
Given that it's completely 

416
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:31,400
peer-to-peer. 
And the limit is based on the on

417
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,400
the streamers bandwidth and 
we're thinking about building a 

418
00:28:36,408 --> 00:28:42,000
service that broadcasters could 
connect to for a fee distribute 

419
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,300
it is, it could distribute the 
video for them so still using 

420
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:49,500
words to see, but with an 
intermediary for Vo 

421
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,300
distribution. 
But we haven't completed that. 

422
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:57,500
I mean, we haven't moved forward
with that. 

423
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,200
It's an idea. 
It's, it's there. 

424
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
In case we want to pursue 
monetization of streaming. 

425
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,300
So then the content producers 
get a hundred percent of the 

426
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:09,700
money that But they charge for 
the video. 

427
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,900
Yeah, exactly. 
Oh, that's really cool. 

428
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,800
So, I mean, this isn't that. 
So, we had another question 

429
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:24,500
regarding piracy, what prevents 
someone from rebroadcasting a 

430
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:29,400
stream that they're paying for 
on, for free, or for, for 

431
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,100
cheaper than what they're paying
for it basically nothing. 

432
00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:37,700
I think information wants to be 
free. 

433
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:42,000
The moment that you gave out 
information, the people that 

434
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,700
received it is free to 
rebroadcast it. 

435
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:50,900
I think that what weight in 
favor of the content producer is

436
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:55,800
that probably the quality of the
rebroadcast, will be lesser 

437
00:29:55,900 --> 00:30:00,200
because of the video streaming, 
it kind of like a losses, some 

438
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600
quality. 
It's important to note that 

439
00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:09,200
we're not trying to solve piracy
with with For you, it's just a 

440
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:15,000
way to monetize live content, 
you create for free, but of 

441
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,500
course, once the viewer gets the
video on their machines, they 

442
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:22,800
can rebroadcast it in any way. 
They they want they already have

443
00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:26,300
like any content essential. 
Yeah, exactly, yeah. 

444
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:33,800
Okay, well then I mean my my my 
next question is on on use 

445
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,900
cases. 
So you know there's so many ways

446
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:38,800
to do steering video. 
These days. 

447
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,500
So we're using Google Hangouts 
right now, of course, that 

448
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:45,300
doesn't provide monetization, 
but, you know, some other 

449
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:48,900
Solutions do I Believe. 
YouTube is now starting to do 

450
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:53,900
monetization in their streams 
and those other services, that 

451
00:30:53,900 --> 00:31:03,300
allow that, what differentiates 
a streamium user from YouTube, 

452
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:05,600
paid live streams. 
I don't know what they call it 

453
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,800
but, you know, from Centralized 
Services. 

454
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,800
What types of people you see 
using streamium as opposed to 

455
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,600
other types of streaming 
services It's kind of funny but 

456
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:25,600
we have like 50 percent of our 
users are basically porn. 

457
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,500
So it's girls come girls doing 
shows online for their clients, 

458
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:38,200
I guess the other is Big use 
cases are education and live 

459
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,600
gaming. 
So it's people doing online 

460
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,000
classes or showing their their 
screens while they play video 

461
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,500
games. 
But the biggest one by far is 

462
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:50,900
porn. 
We think that it's probably 

463
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:57,300
based on the advantages you have
with Bitcoin where you don't 

464
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:02,600
have the so-called we learned 
about this after luncheon 

465
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,100
stream. 
Your meat is something we don't 

466
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:10,900
know about, but in life porn, 
like live camera porn. 

467
00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:15,400
There's the problem of what they
call the wife chargeback were 

468
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,200
It's they have a really high 
rate of charge back and it's not

469
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,200
based on the actual user, but 
when the wife's is what is this?

470
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,500
And he says, no, I don't know, I
didn't use that. 

471
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:32,400
Okay let's do a chargeback and 
that's a big problem apparently 

472
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:39,100
and this sort of solves that. 
But it also allows the user to 

473
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,400
sort of end the stream at any 
point in time. 

474
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,800
So you don't have to prepay for 
something you want to watch. 

475
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,400
And it's sort of a win-win in 
both sides. 

476
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,800
That's our analysis of why? 
This is interesting for the porn

477
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,700
use case. 
But so there's the privacy and 

478
00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:00,800
anonymity part on the client 
side and I suppose on the 

479
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,700
provider side is more money in 
the girls pockets. 

480
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:09,500
And yeah, I'm not having to 
subject to the rules and 

481
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:12,900
restrictions of some campsite 
yeah. 

482
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,600
Essentially the people using it 
are completely in the Pendant. 

483
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:19,500
Yeah. 
And apparently the, the feast 

484
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:24,000
those sites charge for the girls
or the, what the video producers

485
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,000
is really, really high. 
Like, I don't remember exactly a

486
00:33:28,008 --> 00:33:30,700
numbers. 
But I heard something like 40 or

487
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:32,300
50 percent. 
So it's not. 

488
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,400
So on the other types of people 
using it or you mentioned, 

489
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,700
education and online gaming. 
Are you talking about sort of 

490
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,900
twitch style, people streaming 
their online gaming. 

491
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,800
Exactly. 
So in education, we have several

492
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:54,400
language classes like English or
Spanish teachers, and some a 

493
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,500
small amount of users doing 
consulting. 

494
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:05,100
And on the gaming side, it's 
mainly just people playing video

495
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:07,700
games and streaming their 
screens while they play. 

496
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,500
That's a feature, we added some 
weeks after we launched stream, 

497
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,699
you the possibility to broadcast
your own screen. 

498
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:19,600
Because some people some user 
has requested that so we got it 

499
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,900
so like I mean obviously like we
do with everything Bitcoin all 

500
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:31,100
the Technologies are in this 
super early face and somehow it 

501
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:35,000
also resembles the the internet 
of old in which pornography was 

502
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,600
the first killer application. 
So maybe it's it's fitting that 

503
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,300
even for Bitcoin, this should be
one of the, one of the first I 

504
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:48,800
had this imagination that maybe 
one day The drones could stream.

505
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:52,300
Like I have this, I have this 
like four hundred dollar parrot 

506
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:56,300
Bebop drone that you can fly 
around, and even though it's 

507
00:34:56,300 --> 00:35:00,800
moving in the air, the video 
quality is extremely still like 

508
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600
it. 
It will, it seems like it's it's

509
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,500
a tripod flying in the air and I
was, I had this imagination that

510
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,600
perhaps in the future, I will go
to a concert from Pantera or 

511
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,200
some band or Bono and they'll be
drones flying around. 

512
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,000
And I can actually Check out and
they'll be using something like 

513
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,100
streamium to send out the video 
and I can actually take any of 

514
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,800
this stream and see what the 
Drone is seeing basically. 

515
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,900
So, so maybe I mean like I had 
the feeling that it's it's an 

516
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:35,100
idea that has a lot of lot of 
users in the future and maybe it

517
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:40,400
needs just Bitcoin to catch on 
in in order to be be really use 

518
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,700
bdd really widespread. 
It was interesting also to to 

519
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:48,600
see like you mentioned that you 
have this service that just does

520
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,900
Micro payments. 
Could you could you tell us what

521
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:56,900
that is? 
Yes, based on what we talked 

522
00:35:56,900 --> 00:36:01,900
with our early users, mainly the
on the education side, most were

523
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,600
requesting some features. 
We were not ready to develop 

524
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,200
like, okay, we need a digital 
whiteboard where we can sort of 

525
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,100
write stuff, and the student can
watch that, or we need a dual 

526
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,800
video communication, so that the
Your can also send their webcam 

527
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,700
content and we said okay to want
to really build a, an education 

528
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:28,800
product because what they we 
based on what we talked with 

529
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,500
them, but they really valued was
the fact that they could charge 

530
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:36,500
by the second, they were doing 
the class because sometimes I 

531
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,400
have problems charging after the
class ends. 

532
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,600
So you do a two-hour class and 
then the student disappears and 

533
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,300
they never pay. 
And so it's hard to get the 

534
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:49,300
money. 
The money is a problem in in 

535
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:51,900
online teaching. 
And so, when do you charge 

536
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:53,400
before the class after the 
class? 

537
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,500
So this solve this and we 
thought that maybe extracting 

538
00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:03,100
the, the payment system from 
streamium and doing a super 

539
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:06,600
simple app, where you can use 
payment channels inside of any 

540
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,100
other application could be 
interesting. 

541
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:11,300
So, we did that. 
We built for another. 

542
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,900
It's just a good way to describe
it is. 

543
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:19,900
Premium without the video. 
So you have a, you create a 

544
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:24,800
session, it's like a timer, 
where you create a timer, you 

545
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,000
set your hourly rate, or your 
rate per minute. 

546
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:32,600
And then you can connect a 
client and charge them by the 

547
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,400
second. 
And you can use it combined with

548
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,900
any other application like Skype
or whatever it could actually be

549
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:45,700
chat session or or whatever you 
want and charged by. 

550
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,800
Charge for your time to your 
clients. 

551
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:53,500
So which gave each gets the 
higher number of users is 

552
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:56,300
streamium, or is it? 
Is it fair that? 

553
00:37:56,300 --> 00:38:01,500
I'm so as I understand it it's 
streamium is feridem plus plus 

554
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:05,500
the, plus the software to do 
live video streaming so which 

555
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:07,300
one is proving more popular. 
Yeah. 

556
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:11,900
Actually four of them was a 
pretty unsuccessful experiment. 

557
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,700
We are really few users. 
It was basically the, the users 

558
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,300
that requested that 
functionality, that you A couple

559
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:23,100
of times but then we didn't see 
any actual growth even though we

560
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,900
try to make it grow in some, in 
some ways. 

561
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:30,700
So, it's definitely streamium is
way more popular and we have 

562
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,100
more users there. 
I mean, it seems kind of obvious

563
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:37,300
since still streaming is sort of
more of a final product, where 

564
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:41,500
feridem, I mean, you sort of 
have to make it. 

565
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:47,100
You have to, you have to come up
with the, the means to provide 

566
00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:48,800
the service, which you're 
charging. 

567
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,600
Enforce. 
Oh and of course you have all 

568
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,500
that porn on streaming and we 
all know that brings in a bunch 

569
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:58,400
of people, right? 
I wanted to talk about 

570
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,500
alternative funding models. 
I mean micropayments have sort 

571
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:07,400
of been touted by. 
The Bitcoin Community is one of 

572
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:13,900
the killer apps and Bitcoin has 
often been described in in some 

573
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:17,500
sense as a way to solve the 
content monetization problem 

574
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:24,000
that we have. 
I mean we've definitely it's 

575
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,800
been something that we've 
thought a lot about how do we 

576
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,700
monetize our content? 
I think a lot of content 

577
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:29,600
producers off. 
Also ask themselves that 

578
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,500
question. 
There's different. 

579
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:35,100
Ways to monetize your content, 
you can sell advertising, is we 

580
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:37,800
do? 
You can have a pay wall, you can

581
00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:41,700
charge by the article which much
like pay-per-view. 

582
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,700
And for the most part 
advertising has won pretty much 

583
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,400
for every types of content that 
you don't literally pay for with

584
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,300
money. 
Now, with regards to bitcoin and

585
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,200
microtransactions and how you 
would pay for Content. 

586
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,100
I mean, it seems promising, it 
seems interesting as an as a 

587
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:07,500
thought experiment that, you 
know, you would go on some 

588
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,300
website and you would come up to
an article and it would tell 

589
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:13,500
you, okay, you want to pay for 
this and you just say yes or 

590
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:19,400
YouTube video or perhaps a 
stream but in reality I'm not 

591
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,800
sure that people are ready to do
that. 

592
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:25,600
For one, you need to have people
using Bitcoin in this. 

593
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:30,600
Typical example, and two people 
are so used to, you know, not 

594
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:38,200
paying for Content directly that
in order for that for that 

595
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,700
behavior to change, you would 
need a whole lot of sort of 

596
00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:45,500
pressure. 
I guess from the content 

597
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:47,800
industry. 
I'd like to know what your 

598
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,400
thoughts are on this. 
Where'd you see micropayments 

599
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,300
going in the future? 
I have some thoughts about that.

600
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,600
I think I'm talking too much. 
I want to know if it's down cut.

601
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:02,400
Comments there first. 
Well, one of the biggest issues 

602
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:09,600
that we've seen with user-facing
micropayments is the mental cost

603
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,000
of those transactions. 
You don't want to be browsing 

604
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:21,000
around and at the end of the day
knowing that you lost $10 $20 in

605
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,700
some random website. 
But at the same time you don't 

606
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:32,100
want to be agreeing to Be paying
one cent per each article that 

607
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:35,500
you're ready. 
So it's kind of like an unsolved

608
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:37,800
problem from a new civility 
point of view. 

609
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600
But at the same time, it's 
probably going to be most used 

610
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,300
in machine to machine the this 
aspect of micropayments. 

611
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:55,200
Although, right now, the best 
solution that we've seen for 

612
00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:01,100
content monetization is this one
of recording every website that 

613
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:07,800
you've been to, and at the end 
of the day, pay out accordingly 

614
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:14,600
to each each one website that 
you seen based on how much time 

615
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,200
you spend on it or how much you 
like it. 

616
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:24,600
Or how many which ones you like 
the most as a donation 

617
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,500
essentially, yeah, something 
like that. 

618
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,800
With right now. 
I think it's the best kind of 

619
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,900
like solution. 
I don't know where the man with,

620
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:38,700
that's one of the things that we
were discussing with 11. 

621
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,300
Yeah, I agree. 
It's a, it's a really hard 

622
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,600
problem that there's many, many,
many companies, and many smart 

623
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,400
people working on this. 
Because we all know, You see, we

624
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,200
all have the intuition that 
there's some way of using 

625
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,800
Bitcoin micropayments to sort of
change. 

626
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,600
The way content is money is 
monetized on the web or in 

627
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,200
generally online but it's a 
really hard problem. 

628
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,400
We need to work on the really 
small details of the user 

629
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,000
experience. 
And there's a really great 

630
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,400
article by Nick Szabo talking 
about the the mental transaction

631
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,500
costs of micro payments and how 
smart contracts can help with 

632
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:19,600
that. 
I recommend reading that If 

633
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,700
you're interested in the topic, 
but it's actually, it will be a 

634
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:28,900
really long work of trying to 
figure out what the user 

635
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:34,700
interface is in, the case of 
human level micropayments for 

636
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:37,300
Content. 
I agree with Stephen, that will 

637
00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:41,500
probably see other applications 
where there are no humans 

638
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:44,900
involved and there are micro 
payments. 

639
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:49,200
Make much more sense because 
ition essentially what my group.

640
00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:52,400
Payments and smart contracts 
solves, the problem of trust 

641
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,700
between the parties and they 
reduce the the trust between the

642
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,100
two parties for an economic 
interaction. 

643
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:03,600
And in the case of computers, I 
mean in the case of humans that 

644
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:09,100
trust is usually there. 
So it's really in the details 

645
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:11,900
where you can improve the 
experience with micro payments, 

646
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,600
but when you have two machines, 
interacting it's really 

647
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,900
machines. 
Cannot trust Other machines 

648
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:21,800
because they can break or they 
have. 

649
00:44:22,300 --> 00:44:27,700
I don't know, the concept of of 
trust is really human and it 

650
00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:31,300
makes a lot of sense to try and 
build some applications of micro

651
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,300
payments with machine to machine
interaction. 

652
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,700
There's one interesting example 
of an attempt to try to solve 

653
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:45,900
this, the content monetization 
problem or to, at least reduce 

654
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,000
the number of ads that we see is
perhaps you've seen a Google 

655
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,200
contributor. 
So basically, what Google has 

656
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,700
done is said to their users, I 
mean to everyone who uses the 

657
00:44:55,700 --> 00:45:00,700
internet and sees Google 
advertising. 

658
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:03,200
So whenever you go on a website 
for instance, and you see an ad,

659
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,200
there's a pretty good chance 
that that ad was sold. 

660
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:08,500
And through Google and the 
content producers making money 

661
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:11,500
when you see that Adam when you 
click it and what Google has 

662
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,600
done is they said okay we're 
going to put up this platform 

663
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,300
called Google contributor and as
a user of the internet you can 

664
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:25,400
pay up front say to five ten 
twenty dollars per month to not 

665
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:31,600
see ads and rather than paying 
the content producers through 

666
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:34,700
the display of ads you're going 
to pay the content producer 

667
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:37,700
directly. 
Through through Google 

668
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:40,000
contributor and we we will give 
them the money. 

669
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,900
Basically as though you were 
seeing an ad instead, you'll 

670
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:46,500
just see a white box or even you
can put custom HTML in there or 

671
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:49,400
whatever. 
So, I thought that was really an

672
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,700
interesting experiment. 
But you know, Google is in a 

673
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,600
particularly good position to do
that because they own the 

674
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,800
advertising space. 
That's part of the. 

675
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,700
The problem with these kinds of 
solutions to, it's hard to solve

676
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:08,700
the distribution of Micro 
payment solution for Content, 

677
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:12,400
monetization. 
Because when you don't have any 

678
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:18,800
sites that support this, you 
have no reason for users to have

679
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,900
the, the client side of the 
application, and if you have no 

680
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:26,100
users, that can pay for that, 
can pay for this micro 

681
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:29,800
interactions and the sides don't
have any reason to implement the

682
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,400
system to. 
So it's also a business or sort 

683
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,500
of growth hacking Problem, where
someone needs to figure out a 

684
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:43,700
way to, to make the this grow in
some way to solve the chicken 

685
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:49,300
and egg problem, so to speak. 
It's time for a word from our 

686
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:52,000
sponsors of all Toro.com. 
The goal to Bitcoin exchange 

687
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:53,400
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If you've ever traded gold with 

688
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,500
Fiat, you know how much of a 
hassle that can be of course 

689
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:59,800
trading go with Bitcoin, makes 
it super easy and super fast to 

690
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,800
send money into the exchange and
with vulturo you can start 

691
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,200
training gold, as little as 1 
mg, and they're trading fees. 

692
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Start a 0.2% and with the 
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693
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694
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:17,000
rest assure that your Bitcoins 
are safe and by the way, because

695
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,400
you're trading commodities, So, 
you don't need to provide any 

696
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,200
kyc documentation for deposits 
less than five thousand dollars 

697
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,400
worth of Bitcoins per day, which
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698
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699
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,100
might be asking yourself. 
What you do is guys, do all day.

700
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:34,700
Do they lie in their bathtub, 
swimming gold. 

701
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:38,300
Well, you might think that but 
actually they may be may be 

702
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:40,800
doing that part of the time but 
the other part of the iambic 

703
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,200
keep doing the same thing over 
and over again and that's 

704
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improving both Roar and they've 
done it again. 

705
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706
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They've partnered with block 

707
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Cipher and you can now deposit 
your Bitcoins and start creating

708
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straight away. 
So keep improving the service. 

709
00:47:57,700 --> 00:48:01,200
So go to Volterra.com and start 
trading gold. 

710
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,700
Today, we would like to thank V 
or for their support of 

711
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:09,200
represent a Bitcoin. 
So you've mentioned that the 

712
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,100
mental cost of transactions is a
barrier to micro payments. 

713
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,300
And on this front I think 
streamium has innovated quite a 

714
00:48:16,308 --> 00:48:22,300
bit like all the user sees is 
how much somebody charges per 

715
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:25,700
hour and then the system works 
and you just decide whether you 

716
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:29,400
want to give something fifty 
dollars an hour and then you 

717
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,600
watch the stream and you close 
out and everything else is 

718
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,300
handled on its own. 
User doesn't really see the 

719
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:40,200
meter running. 
For example, have you what kind 

720
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,000
of user feedback have you 
received regarding regarding 

721
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,700
this aspect? 
Our users happy with this kind 

722
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:50,700
of system, or you think 
something else is needed. 

723
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:55,900
Something even better is needed.
Well, right now, the highest bar

724
00:48:55,900 --> 00:49:00,400
are for using payment channels 
is the knowledge of the. 

725
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,600
You are sending this transaction
with a for the maximum amount of

726
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,200
time. 
That you will be watching, and 

727
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,900
that's kind of, like, confuses 
the users because, well, I have,

728
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:15,900
I've already tried to explain 
the payment Channel, but it's a 

729
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:18,500
complicated thing to do with the
streamium. 

730
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:25,300
We are having that maximum 
amount of money to be locked in 

731
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:31,000
thing, which is the current 
biggest problem for payment 

732
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,700
channels for users. 
Because the fact that the users 

733
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:40,200
Need to lock funds and there are
currently no wallets supporting 

734
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,200
payment channels natively. 
We need to ask them to make a 

735
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,300
sort of deposit, then we grade 
the payment Channel and even 

736
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:51,300
though it's trustless, we 
require the user to send the 

737
00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:54,800
actual total amount. 
So it feels like okay am I 

738
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:59,500
preparing this or not. 
So a big barrier to that is 

739
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,000
actual wallet adoption of the 
payment channels protocol that 

740
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,400
would decrease The mental costs 
a lot, I think. 

741
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:12,500
But with regards to the metered 
payment, we actually asked this 

742
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:16,200
question because we were afraid 
of the same thing about users 

743
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,200
being, I don't know, nervous 
about the costs not knowing how 

744
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,200
much they're actually paying. 
But from what we interviewed, 

745
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,100
all of them were said that it 
was okay. 

746
00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:30,400
Like they understood it and they
were not nervous, there were not

747
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,200
checking the time to see if they
were wasting a lot of money or 

748
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,300
not it. 
Cuz I think we did a pretty good

749
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:39,500
job, but we still we're still 
really far from an Optimum 

750
00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:40,300
solution. 
I think. 

751
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,800
Yeah. 
I used your service. 

752
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,500
And in the beginning, I I saw 
this multi signature address and

753
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:52,700
the first thing I thought was 
it's a centralized service that 

754
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:55,000
I'm sending money to you and you
will partition. 

755
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,700
The money between me and the and
the stream Creator. 

756
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:01,700
But then that turned out to be 
turned out to be wrong. 

757
00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:06,000
It's actually a world, it in a 
browser that we have to code so 

758
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,900
we can have the payment Channel.
So basically when when I put in 

759
00:51:10,900 --> 00:51:16,200
money, I'm actually creating a 
new set of private keys and with

760
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,400
those new private keys. 
I'm, I'm putting money into this

761
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,000
multi signature signature 
address, so it's my own browser.

762
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,000
That is my own wallet in the 
background without me, even 

763
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,700
realizing it right. 
Yeah, that's right. 

764
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,900
So some maybe we could we could 
talk about one of your other 

765
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:39,600
projects that that is that is 
quite interesting. 

766
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,800
It's it's called decentraland. 
And it's a project that I that I

767
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,700
saw that merges virtual reality 
and blockchain Technology. 

768
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:53,800
Now, I've been surfing around 
the virtual reality World for, 

769
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,700
for the past half a year. 
And you see, you see many people

770
00:51:58,707 --> 00:52:02,100
talk about the The intersection 
of the blockchain and the 

771
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:05,000
virtual reality there is their 
statements, like Bitcoin will be

772
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,700
the currency of the metaverse. 
The metaverse is the virtual 

773
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:13,400
reality universe or or you see 
statements like that, the 

774
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,600
virtual reality needs to be 
decentralized. 

775
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,900
So could you explain? 
What is what is the connection 

776
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:22,100
between these two technologies 
and why you chose to devote some

777
00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:25,000
of your time to it? 
It's actually a super 

778
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,300
experimental project we did for 
fun. 

779
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,500
So don't expect a lot of Since 
to come out of this. 

780
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,700
But we were also really, really 
excited. 

781
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:37,400
Personally about virtual reality
and of course blockchain 

782
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,000
technology, because we work 
there in the in the industry and

783
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,500
we wanted to do a small 
experiment where we could 

784
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:48,100
combine those two cool ideas. 
I don't know how much sense that

785
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:52,200
makes, but we wanted to build a 
blockchain based virtual reality

786
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,400
world. 
The idea is to use the 

787
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:59,000
blockchain as the support for 
the structure of the world. 

788
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,500
So, in between you have The 
blockchain as a data structure 

789
00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:05,700
that allows you to synchronize 
the state of the decentralized 

790
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:08,800
network. 
So that all the nodes can agree 

791
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:14,500
and reach a consensus on what 
the to simplify it the balance 

792
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:18,800
of every Bitcoin addresses. 
So the same idea could be 

793
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,400
applied to a network where the 
nodes synchronized the state of 

794
00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:27,900
virtual world. 
So transactions in this in this 

795
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:30,200
Block Chain would be a state 
model. 

796
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,500
Vacations of the world. 
So, I'm in the case of the 

797
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:40,100
Central and we need a really 
simple technical prototype where

798
00:53:40,100 --> 00:53:44,100
you have the model of the 
virtual world is just a pixel 

799
00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:47,600
grid. 
So a two dimensional color grid 

800
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,100
with where each pixel can have 
different colors. 

801
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,500
And transactions, represent a 
color change in the 

802
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:57,200
two-dimensional grid. 
So one transaction in the 

803
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:03,000
Central and is a message that 
changes the color. 

804
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:08,900
ER, of one pixel at coordinator 
at an XY coordinate and Mining 

805
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:14,600
is, is used as in Bitcoin to 
validate and provide security to

806
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:20,900
do the transactions and when you
generate a new block, the coin, 

807
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:23,900
very Stern section in the center
line allows you to add a new 

808
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:27,700
pixel to the grid. 
So initially you have a 1 by 1 

809
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:31,100
grid so only 1 pixel and when 
you mind the next blog, you can 

810
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:35,100
add a new pixel to the grid. 
In an adjacent position. 

811
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,000
So the idea is that the the grid
of pixels will grow over time 

812
00:54:40,100 --> 00:54:44,600
when users are mining new blocks
and then we're the owners of 

813
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,300
each pixel can change the color.
So, it's actually a really 

814
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:52,700
simple model of a virtual world.
It's sort of a proof of concept 

815
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,800
that has no actual use, but it 
was a fun experiment to do. 

816
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,300
So it was like, I could see that
it's a prototype, but it could 

817
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:07,800
to my eye, it also. 
It was sort of the answer to one

818
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:13,000
of the problems that that, that 
virtual reality has, well not 

819
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,300
not an exact answer, but I've 
got a really interesting one. 

820
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:20,000
So, with virtual reality, I 
think the the problem is if I 

821
00:55:20,008 --> 00:55:24,300
actually start to live my life 
in virtual reality, then I want 

822
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,600
to have my own house or how my 
own property in virtual reality 

823
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,400
and I want to own something in 
virtually like like the way 

824
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,400
people used to own stuff in in 
Second Life but the problem is, 

825
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,800
if If all of the information to 
create this virtual space is 

826
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,100
with a company like Google and I
call something my house in 

827
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:46,400
virtual reality. 
But actually all the information

828
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,700
to build. 
It is owned by Google. 

829
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:53,300
That can go down in any day that
can prevent me from own 

830
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,900
accessing my own house in 
virtual reality. 

831
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,200
So, a centralized model is like,
II want to own something, but I 

832
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:05,900
really can't own anything in a, 
in a centralized model of of The

833
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:10,500
processing. 
So so they it seemed to be that 

834
00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:14,500
with these rental and I could 
have my ownership over 

835
00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:18,000
something. 
And the data structure that is 

836
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,600
giving me ownership is not a 
centralized entity and that 

837
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,400
makes it really interesting. 
What do you so do video agree 

838
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,200
with that. 
It's exactly what we try to do 

839
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,600
with the Central and this first 
version you could see those 

840
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:39,100
pixels as Parcels of the world 
and you own those parcels and 

841
00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:46,100
you get to decide which color 
you can buy pink, dogs back 

842
00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:49,200
pixels. 
But in a further version that 

843
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,800
would be your land your house 
instead of a pixel and The 

844
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,300
color. 
Also the motivation for that, 

845
00:56:57,300 --> 00:57:01,200
like, why why would you want it 
to be decentralized and actually

846
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,500
own it? 
We even even today where we have

847
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:07,100
Virtual Worlds that are super 
centralized say. 

848
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:12,200
I don't know Games, like World 
of Warcraft players, spend a lot

849
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,500
of time and invest a lot of 
money and time into those 

850
00:57:15,500 --> 00:57:19,900
Virtual Worlds. 
We think that when you actually 

851
00:57:19,900 --> 00:57:22,900
own the stuff and you don't have
the risk of a company changing 

852
00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:25,900
the rules of the world, or 
taking ownership of what you 

853
00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:30,400
build the, the time and the 
things we will see created in 

854
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,000
those Virtual Worlds will 
increase a lot. 

855
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,400
Like the investment of users 
into Virtual Worlds will grow a 

856
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,300
lot because they will actually 
know that there is no risk to 

857
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:44,700
lose that to the whims of a 
company. 

858
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:51,100
Before we wrap up here, I'd like
to briefly talk about proof of 

859
00:57:51,100 --> 00:57:56,800
existence, Manuel, you sort of 
pioneered this, the idea of 

860
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,200
proof of existence, and it's 
funny because I was reading a 

861
00:57:59,300 --> 00:58:02,700
just randomly reading this white
paper, this week, and it 

862
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:06,100
mentioned you in the abstract is
the the person had pioneered, 

863
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:09,500
the sort of idea that proof of 
existence in blockchain. 

864
00:58:09,500 --> 00:58:14,700
So proof of existence is 
essentially is time stamping. 

865
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:20,100
Piece of data with a hash that 
you then put into a transaction 

866
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:26,400
and knee in the Opera turn and 
that hash is is sort of 

867
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,300
notarized into the blockchain 
forever. 

868
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:31,900
So you can prove that, you know,
Timex this piece of data 

869
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:33,400
existed. 
So it could be a document. 

870
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,900
That could be an MP3 file. 
It could be, could be a 

871
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:40,700
contract, whatever, and that 
allows you to notarize a piece 

872
00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:44,300
of information at a certain 
point in time, I personally find

873
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:48,500
that this is one of the most 
interesting use cases for 

874
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:50,800
Bitcoin and blockchain 
Technology outside of payments. 

875
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,200
And I wanted to get your ideas 
about what you think about that.

876
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,300
And where do you think this is 
going? 

877
00:58:58,700 --> 00:59:02,800
Yeah, first first of all, I have
to say that I was not the first 

878
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,400
to think about this after 
building proof existence. 

879
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,200
I found that there are several 
projects doing the same thing 

880
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,100
the same idea. 
Although proof of existence was 

881
00:59:11,100 --> 00:59:14,600
certainly the first 
user-friendly experience. 

882
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,900
Most of our tools for 
developers, where you had to 

883
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:21,600
download some fun, command line,
utility to do this and running a

884
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,100
full node. 
So, it was actually the first 

885
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,300
user accessible way of Of doing 
it. 

886
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,900
But yeah, it was, it is 
considered by many like the 

887
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:36,200
first real world application of 
the blockchain that is non-final

888
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,800
non-financial. 
And I think it's a it's a really

889
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,700
interesting way to think about 
the blockchain. 

890
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:46,700
Like there are a lot of things 
we can. 

891
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:49,300
There are a lot of properties of
Bitcoin that can be used for 

892
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:53,800
other systems other than payment
and mainly, what perfect system 

893
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:58,800
does is using the, the fact that
it's a public, Ledger where you 

894
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:05,300
have this interact consensus on 
data is published and that that 

895
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,400
the, the blockchain structure 
allows the timestamp that data. 

896
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,800
And so, I brought this, this 
project was launched three years

897
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,000
ago or so. 
And since then there have been 

898
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,400
many, many similar projects 
coming out some trying to 

899
01:00:24,408 --> 01:00:29,100
improve on the technical side. 
I'll some time to sort of build 

900
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:34,600
nicer product more targeted to a
specific use case. 

901
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:39,100
Recently, there have been a 
couple of really interesting 

902
01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:45,500
developments and the Tyrion 
project sort of improves both in

903
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:50,000
the technical and the business 
side, they are building a system

904
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,900
where it's based on an open 
source. 

905
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:57,500
Project called chain point, 
where what you do is, instead of

906
01:00:57,500 --> 01:01:02,200
inserting each documents cash in
a single Bitcoin transaction, 

907
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,400
they use a code 3 to insert 
several documents. 

908
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:15,000
So, you only insert one hash per
each Bitcoin block, which is The

909
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:20,000
it's a better way to do it 
because with Bitcoin you only 

910
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,900
have one time stamp for each 
block. 

911
01:01:21,900 --> 01:01:24,900
So it makes no sense to add many
documents into the same Bitcoin 

912
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:29,000
block, but they solved it in a 
really interesting way where 

913
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:34,900
they can provide you a proof 
like approved for you. 

914
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:37,500
Don't need any of the other 
documents. 

915
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:41,300
In the same block to know that 
your document actually is in the

916
01:01:41,300 --> 01:01:45,900
in that Bitcoin block. 
So the The idea is you have a 

917
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:49,600
set of documents each 10 minutes
and you build a miracle tree 

918
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,600
from that and you insert the 
root of the tree into a Bitcoin 

919
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,700
block. 
And then you give each user 

920
01:01:56,100 --> 01:02:01,300
Merkel proof or the path in the 
Merkur tree that proves that 

921
01:02:01,300 --> 01:02:04,600
your document is part of that 
Merkle tree. 

922
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,000
So the user can then use his 
document and the Merkel proof or

923
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,500
how they call it. 
I think it's a blockchain 

924
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:16,800
received or something that with 
those two pieces of information,

925
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:23,100
you can prove that your document
had a certain time stamp in the 

926
01:02:23,300 --> 01:02:27,300
using the Bitcoin blockchain. 
That's an interesting project. 

927
01:02:30,100 --> 01:02:37,300
Yeah, I'm I'm very interesting 
to see interested to see where 

928
01:02:37,300 --> 01:02:41,100
this goes. 
Are you aware of any? 

929
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:48,300
Any instances where a 
motorization in the blockchain 

930
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:52,300
was? 
My question is, basically, is 

931
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:55,700
there a legal precedence, for 
this to stand up in court, or in

932
01:02:55,700 --> 01:02:58,300
some sort of a dispute 
resolution in, for instance, 

933
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:02,300
copyright because there's other 
companies, like we've talked to 

934
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,600
Trent McConaughey of a scribe, 
you know, they're doing certain 

935
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,500
nerves. 
Ation of digital art on the 

936
01:03:10,508 --> 01:03:12,700
blockchain and like you 
mentioned, there's so many other

937
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:14,800
projects that are doing similar 
things. 

938
01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:21,600
I feel like this might be 
something that sort of gains 

939
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,100
somewhat. 
Interesting quantities of 

940
01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:29,300
adoption. 
How do you think that? 

941
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:33,800
How do you think that it would 
be legally? 

942
01:03:35,300 --> 01:03:37,100
But will it become legally 
binding soon? 

943
01:03:37,100 --> 01:03:39,700
Do you think if you think that 
it would be adopted as something

944
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:46,100
that people would sort of trust 
as a, a A viable way to notarize

945
01:03:46,100 --> 01:03:49,800
documents rather than going 
through like a notary or what 

946
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,400
other copyright registration. 
Things like that. 

947
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:59,000
Yeah so that there's no legal 
precedent yet the only similar 

948
01:03:59,900 --> 01:04:05,100
case we have is the Canada State
kind of Senate that they when 

949
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:11,500
they did a cryptocurrency 
research they actually used a 

950
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:14,000
similar. 
Well actually the same protocol 

951
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,400
from proof of existence to 
certify their own cryptocurrency

952
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,000
report in the blockchain. 
That's the only like government 

953
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,400
acknowledged. 
Moment of this technology 

954
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:28,500
working but it's we still 
haven't seen any legal precedent

955
01:04:28,500 --> 01:04:33,200
of someone using it in court. 
I think that the the way this 

956
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:38,700
could develop is someone that 
used proof of existence or a 

957
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:43,300
similar blockchain based time, 
something system going to court 

958
01:04:43,300 --> 01:04:47,600
about something and they will 
need to have a an expert 

959
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,500
witness. 
Like I don't know how these are 

960
01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:55,300
called in English but and the I 
go to court and try to explain 

961
01:04:55,300 --> 01:04:58,000
to the judge. 
Yeah an expert witness. 

962
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:58,800
Yeah. 
Okay. 

963
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:04,600
Expert witness in that case, 
we'll see what what president is

964
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:11,100
set and if we can actually 
holding holding court or not but

965
01:05:11,100 --> 01:05:15,500
I think that as it works 
technically it only needs time 

966
01:05:15,500 --> 01:05:18,600
so that people sort of 
understand it and see the the 

967
01:05:18,607 --> 01:05:23,500
value and sort of this kind of 
things need to Time. 

968
01:05:23,900 --> 01:05:27,700
So it's a matter of and as you 
said with all these companies 

969
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:33,500
emerging and doing work in this 
area, I think it's it's better 

970
01:05:33,700 --> 01:05:36,200
even. 
But we still need to see what 

971
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:41,500
happens in court. 
The technology is solid and when

972
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:46,000
we asked some lawyers in 
Argentina, they said that this 

973
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:52,500
could pretty easily hold the an 
investigation and it will 

974
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:57,300
actually be could be called 
correctly against the shots, 

975
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:02,400
which actually surprised me 
because I was, I thought that it

976
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,600
was, there will be no chance 
that that charge will take 

977
01:06:06,100 --> 01:06:09,300
something like this into his 
trials. 

978
01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:11,800
Yeah. 
Maybe we need a good. 

979
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,400
We need a big big case, where 
it's like a hundred million 

980
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,200
dollars on steak and the proof 
is on the Bitcoin blockchain. 

981
01:06:20,900 --> 01:06:25,100
And then and then the judges 
agree on it and then that that 

982
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:27,900
really drives this kind of thing
mainstream, it's pretty similar 

983
01:06:27,900 --> 01:06:31,000
to what what happened in in 
biology like people were 

984
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:36,900
shouting that can we patent life
for 20 years and then there's, 

985
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,500
there's one guy who actually did
patent it and then there was a 

986
01:06:40,500 --> 01:06:42,500
huge case for fifty fifty 
million dollars. 

987
01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:48,900
And after that suddenly this 
this idea of Patenting genes 

988
01:06:49,100 --> 01:06:51,700
went into the mainstream, maybe 
maybe, maybe Bitcoin will be 

989
01:06:51,700 --> 01:06:54,800
similar. 
It needs this big lawsuit moment

990
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,800
where some big parties are suing
each other and the only proof is

991
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:00,900
the Bitcoin blockchain. 
Well what I find really 

992
01:07:00,900 --> 01:07:04,500
interesting about the sort of 
service like proof of existence 

993
01:07:04,500 --> 01:07:09,000
or some other services out 
there, is that it I find that it

994
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,500
opens up the business model. 
There's the business model is 

995
01:07:13,100 --> 01:07:16,000
not necessarily reliant on 
bitcoin payments. 

996
01:07:16,500 --> 01:07:19,600
So a service like proof of 
existence or others, that you 

997
01:07:19,607 --> 01:07:23,400
mentioned, Tyrion and services, 
like this can charge per 

998
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:27,000
notarization with a credit card 
or whatever. 

999
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,700
So it allows people from outside
of the Bitcoin and blockchain 

1000
01:07:31,700 --> 01:07:35,000
space to use the blockchain for 
something actually pretty useful

1001
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:39,000
which is notarizing documents. 
Yeah, that's true. 

1002
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:44,700
And I think that that's a really
big strength for a Bitcoin 

1003
01:07:44,700 --> 01:07:48,100
business right now or abduction 
based business because user 

1004
01:07:48,100 --> 01:07:53,200
adoption is growing pretty slow.
So if you're basing your product

1005
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,100
on the assumption that your 
users will have Bitcoin you 

1006
01:07:57,100 --> 01:08:01,400
really, you need a really really
compelling use case so that you 

1007
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,400
get users to actually buy 
Bitcoin to use your application.

1008
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,200
In another case you need to have
have an application where 

1009
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,300
Bitcoin is invisible and you as 
you said you can have credit 

1010
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:16,899
card or PayPal payments and 
still use the blockchain in some

1011
01:08:16,899 --> 01:08:18,800
other way where it's invisible 
to the user. 

1012
01:08:19,700 --> 01:08:22,700
So before we wrap up we just 
want to mention briefly. 

1013
01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:25,200
So you guys have a new company. 
Can you just tell us briefly 

1014
01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:26,800
about the company which are 
trying to achieve? 

1015
01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:30,500
Yeah, we just started a new 
company. 

1016
01:08:30,500 --> 01:08:34,000
It's called smart contract 
Solutions, we're doing work with

1017
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,200
smart contracts. 
We're currently in stealth mode.

1018
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:41,300
So we cannot talk about the 
details, but hopefully, 

1019
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:44,899
hopefully we'll have something 
we can talk publicly about soon.

1020
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:48,399
Okay, great. 
Well, I want to thank you both 

1021
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:50,800
for coming on today is really 
interesting discussion. 

1022
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,399
I think that, you know, this 
problem. 

1023
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:58,000
I mean, problem, the issue of 
content monetization is one that

1024
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:03,700
There's definitely a Bitcoin, 
definitely tries to solve it in 

1025
01:09:03,700 --> 01:09:05,899
some way. 
Now whether or not it will catch

1026
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,100
it'll catch on because of user 
adoption of Bitcoin. 

1027
01:09:09,100 --> 01:09:13,600
Or, as we mentioned, the user 
experience problem, that needs 

1028
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,000
to be solved, the Still Remains 
to be three seeing. 

1029
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,300
But in any case I think that it 
does provide a really 

1030
01:09:19,300 --> 01:09:22,899
interesting way for Content 
providers to monetize their 

1031
01:09:22,899 --> 01:09:26,100
content. 
Yeah definitely we are also very

1032
01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:30,800
eager to see Ian's in that space
content. 

1033
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,000
Monetization stream. 
You fire them proof of 

1034
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,200
existence. 
They oh there is something from 

1035
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,399
that into all this. 
Okay, well, thanks for coming 

1036
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:44,000
on, thanks for joining us and to
our listeners. 

1037
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,700
Thank you for, for joining us 
today and another episode of 

1038
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:50,200
epicenter Bitcoin, we release 
new episodes, every Monday, you 

1039
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,100
can subscribe to the show on 
iTunes SoundCloud or wherever 

1040
01:09:53,100 --> 01:09:57,100
you get your favorite podcast, 
it could be also on the iOS or 

1041
01:09:57,100 --> 01:10:00,900
Android and you can also watch 
the video version of the show on

1042
01:10:00,900 --> 01:10:04,000
YouTube at youtube.com slash 
epicenter Bitcoin. 

1043
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,100
Of course you can always send 
some tip and the Tipping address

1044
01:10:07,100 --> 01:10:10,000
will be in the show notes. 
Now just as a quick note, 

1045
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:15,300
Regarding the T-shirt bribing 
operation that we had going on 

1046
01:10:15,700 --> 01:10:20,100
for these last few weeks we've 
actually run out of t-shirts so 

1047
01:10:20,700 --> 01:10:24,200
you can still leave us a review 
on iTunes and you can send us an

1048
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,100
email at show a difference in 
your Bitcoin.com to let us know 

1049
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:30,000
that you've sent us a review. 
Unfortunately, we won't be able 

1050
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,300
to send it to t-shirt right 
away. 

1051
01:10:31,300 --> 01:10:34,300
We're getting some new ones made
as quickly as we can. 

1052
01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:36,700
And as soon as we have, some new
ones will be shipping. 

1053
01:10:36,700 --> 01:10:38,500
Those type of tubing to our 
listeners. 

1054
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:43,500
And for those of you who Have 
received a t-shirt, we would be 

1055
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:47,400
super grateful. 
If you could take a picture of 

1056
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,800
yourself with the t-shirt and 
send it to us and we'd like to 

1057
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,300
post that on social media. 
So thanks so much and we look 

1058
01:10:55,300 --> 01:10:42,700
forward to being back next week.
Have received a t-shirt, we 

1059
01:10:42,700 --> 01:10:47,400
would be super grateful. 
If you could take a picture of 

1060
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,800
yourself with the t-shirt and 
send it to us and we'd like to 

1061
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,300
post that on social media. 
So thanks so much and we look 

1062
01:10:55,300 --> 01:10:56,500
forward to being back next week.