This is the second part of a two-part series on the state of
the ZK ecosystem. And we're speaking with
annerose, the founder of ZK podcast, they kzk Summit ZK,
validator, ZK, hack, and probably a bunch of other zks,
as well as As Kobe, Kobe gherkin, who is the head of
research at geometry and works with Anna and seek a validator
and seek a hack and is also cryptography, advised it Sealab.
If you've missed the first part of this double episode, go back
to last week's and maybe start with that one because it is
segue quite nicely from there without much further Ado.
Let me tell you about our sponsors this week.
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And with that, let's head over to the second part of the
interview with Kobe and Anna. So I think it might be a perfect
time to start talking applications because I think
that was where you wanted. You wanted to sort of hear some
of these like novel, cool ideas, right?
Absolutely, that's what I'm here for.
All right. So yeah, we did before this
interview. We compiled a bit of a list and
a lot of these are coming, by the way, from these interviews
that we've done recently and like trying to pull together
like what you know what Dan? For example, this interview we
did with Dan Bonet. It was episode 56 like four
weeks ago. The wrong number.
Yeah, it's a good number but yeah, it's a real mess up.
We in that he went through a bunch of examples so we can
definitely share those. I also know in the interview I
did with Matt Greene, I learned about some new ideas and
generally, I mean, look, if you look at what 0x park releases in
their videos, when they do showcases, that's like an
amazing space to find out about like new ideas and not at the
truth is not all. Of them are feasible at this
moment. I think.
But still like, set the goal, like put the, you know, flag in
the sand, in the future, and then, let's build those tools.
So we can actually make these things possible.
I'm curious, if you've been keeping up to date on this Kobe,
have you been paying attention to like Constitution doubt to
just a bit? So like I like the concept of
this Anonymous multisig. So That's kind of the what the
new Clio team is doing so they're using privacy technology
to like, one of the things that they're doing is to hide who
exactly participate in multisig. But Inquisition doubt, they
using it to hide the total amount that you would be.
Yeah, exactly. The using this to hide the
amount that it would be because we don't know what happened with
the first constitution though. We're just because the amount of
public. It was just outbid and so yeah,
I think they're using this in a very cool way to how to hide
this, but yeah, that's the extent.
They know it. So yeah, this was the private
Dows. One of the reasons for this was
like and this is what we talked about in that episode with Dan
was, you know, when you're doing bedding, when you're actually in
an auction and you can see what other people have as their Max
than it's pretty easy to win the auction and I think that's kind
of what happened. So yeah, this is a cool.
This is a really cool. Use case for this.
We do have penumbra which is like a privacy-preserving deck
so that's like and there's been a lot.
Like Manta also had proposed something like this.
There's a lot. Different like ways to think
about what in add X should be private and what can be private
and what, maybe can't be private.
And so those that's just been an interesting conversation space
and like development space to Define that I think penumbra's
Solutions really cool. And I just in terms of status
though, like, you know, they are still test Nets and like there's
a lot to build before you can actually use these things.
Maybe we can mention like some cool experiments that we've seen
from Xerox, Parc, right. So I think one thing that was
really cool. Was this hay and on experiment.
So maybe you've seen that on Twitter, but they they've been
taking these groups that maybe have some relation among the
people. So for example, all the people
that participated in the Dow and got hacked, you know?
So and And now, all of these people can send a message as a
participant or as a member in that group without revealing who
you are. So this is something that
they've published which is which is really nice.
Like you can you can do that and some other cool things that I
think technically it's very advanced.
That's called ethos actually. I don't remember what?
Okay, it's degree of separation. That's the the acronym.
So it allows you to prove. Oh yeah, who you know?
And like who that person knows? And so on.
So how far in terms of the chain of people are you from vitalik?
That was the demo of this, they did.
So it uses actually like, recursive proofs and Extremely
complex Machinery, inside snarks, to make that happen, and
just to prove this degree of separation.
So that's something unique. And another cool experiment that
they did was cabal, which allowed you to create these
discs or channels or telegram channels.
That have pseudonyms, that are derived from again a group Of
people that, you know beforehand.
But when they join the channel the nobody knows who they were
from that group. So those are some cool
experiments that we've seen. And I think we could also
mention some of them experiments, right?
Yeah. So Dan told us about this
project where they are trying to almost do like image provenance
even after it's been cropped or changed, so trying to prove
that. Like and I think the example are
the use case here is like newspapers that will crop an
image but you want to know that it actually is from an original
Physically or a digital file or Digital Image.
And so there's a zkp to like, prove that it's actually from
that original one and I know on our show we talked about maybe
even extending this to music or to film and like being able to
prove like if you edit film that it's connected to an earlier
version of that video footage, which is pretty exciting.
This is this is like one of these non-locking ones.
There is another non blockchain. One to mention this is mentioned
on the episode. I did with Matt Greene where
apparently, and I don't know any real details on this, but
apparently, Google is looking to use EK PS2.
Like comply with GDP are rules, but still use private data.
So it's almost like to go around some of the privacy rules like
using it to like oh we can make it private.
Was you keep these? But like actually doing things
that normally they wouldn't they shouldn't be doing right?
I don't know I actually don't know enough about this to cash
that much shade, but yeah, I want to mention also like a
project that is live, which uses it and that's his Mo.
So we actually had them present, as you can hack, and actually
create these attestation badges. It's pretty cool.
Like it's, I don't know. Kobe.
Do you want to, you want to go through how it works?
I can help. Yeah, sure.
Actually, like, it's interesting because when they started out,
like I was talking to the seasonal Founders and like,
actually I think this is is when I was looking at the Stark mad.
So I was doing a project based on blind signatures that allow
you to get an attestation from like some issuer.
But after you get this at the station, the issuer cannot track
you anymore because you're blind it in the process.
So it was, it was a construction that I learned from privacy
paths which is a project from cloudflare from years ago, and
but I think nobody really played it in.
This context. So that that was fun.
And this is my people also created something of that sort
when they started out and that's what allowed them to create
these badges, which are privacy-preserving.
So you have some issues that maybe you trust or put some
trust in but nobody can track. You not even them after you do
that, but they have sense developed much more And they're
using SDK and membership proofs. Like the ones that are others,
like the cash and the projects on lithium Foundation are using
and basically everyone that does privacy-preserving transfers and
it's there now doing other kinds of at the stations and that have
even less trusting them but still preserve.
This unlink ability properties. They seem to emerge like people
kind of treat them like Poe apps but they have a month Christine.
Yeah. Like something private and
detached underneath which is cool.
Yeah no this is most one of the projects we've been meaning to
have one for a while. So yeah.
Nice. Yeah.
Other like so there's some there's some projects that have
been around for a while like semaphore or CLR fund.
Jill are funds like allowing you to do get coin?
Type donations but privately as far as I remember.
Yeah and then I'm trying to think like there's two areas
like well actually before I do that Kobe is there any other use
cases that come to mind? I think we've covered our list.
So yeah, I think the thing like maybe there's Worth to mention
that there is a big group in this room Foundation.
That's called like PSE like privacy is going Explorations.
They're doing a lot of projects that push the boundaries in.
MZ K. So semaphore was in there, which
allows for anonymous messaging were signaling more correctly.
Sailor fund is based on Maisie, which is kind of a project that
doesn't fit in the Box. Exactly of privacy or
scalability because it is snarks to prevent collusion between
people. And so it creates a more secure
environment for voting. So that's that's really
compelling. And there's, there's a bunch of
other projects that are being work there.
So, for example, there is a zk0 pro, which combines private
transactions with an optimistic roll-up kind of construction and
generally the doing like cool things.
But I know what was the question?
You know, I need to ask you for any other use cases.
I think what you're saying is like, if you want to find the
good, use cases head to those places I think like, yeah.
I think, keep watch it. Yeah.
Actually, as you're saying this, I was just thinking about, like
so like any project that does EK like any network, they're going
to have like a ZK, education arm and they're going to want, you
know, like they're creating a lot of content and ideas for
their network. But there are like these three
Three groups. I think we count.
ZK hack in that. It's like zika, hack, Xerox,
Parc, and p, and p SE. Because like in that case, I
guess PSE still invariance theorem and actually their ex
Parks variant theorem. But like generally, there's
little bit more of a, like a neutrality for where, and how
you could deploy these things. So they're just like ideas and
libraries like things, you can probably rate recreate in other
places and so yeah, it's definitely like my source for
for use cases. So, there are two big there, two
big topics, we haven't covered. And that's ZK.
Bridges and Z km L, which is like the new very exciting
field. People are jumping into.
Yeah, so maybe we can talk audits.
It's also something that I really want to talk about for a
bit cool. But ZK Bridges sounds good.
So there's there's the 16th Bridge.
It also came out of CR-X Park in a way.
It's a little bit. It's a piece of infrastructure
that most people didn't really expect, right?
Can you talk about how it works? Yeah, happy too.
So usually when you want to get the bridge like if you want the
Holy Grail in some sense or at least something very, very good.
You want something, which is a light client Bridge so that you
can verify the light Clan protocol of another chain inside
your chain and that allows you to get really high guarantees.
Because you don't trust, let's say like a multi, see great job
of small Committee of Sign errors or in an optimistic
Bridge, which is like very secure.
But there is this synchrony assumption or at least it's a
game theoretically secure and not like Zac the matically
secure, right? Yeah.
And like, there is like Network dependency on like latency and
stuff of that sort. So, yeah, exactly.
It's like different kind of security properties.
But alive client Bridge allows you to overcome a lot of these
difficulties specially in. Is the tab and deterministic
finality where you can be certain that after a few blocks,
things will not change and which is true, for example, for
ethereal 2.0, but not through for theorem one.
So, and ZK Bridges, make it possible for chains that have
let's say, incompatible light clients and communicate with
each other. So, When you want to verify the
theorem 2.0 consensus. Then you have to verify a lot of
be less signatures and you have to do it on a very specific
elliptic curve, that that's pretty hard and it's pretty
compute-intensive in the context of a blockchain.
So with the zika bridge, you just found it in the toll
protocol inside the snark and then you just verify the proof,
which is like like we mentioned before, a lot of L ones already
support Primitives for proof. If ocation so you can do that
but you cannot do the light client directly so zika Bridges.
Give you that. So for example, if it's just a
way of kind of getting the stage of the of the other chain, yeah,
crust is Leon to the chain that you're coming from, right?
Yeah, exactly. So you now that you know you can
verify the left hand you know know what is the latest state.
So from there, you can start making queries and check
balances and checks. Check transfer messages or
things like that. So that connects them in a very
nice way. Yeah.
And like if you look I did an episode while back on like
different kinds of bridges and different security for different
kinds of bridges. And these cryptographic Bridges,
tend to do best on the security front and that's where like IBC
is like that. But I funny because I thought,
for a long time, people were just like you can't do that on a
theory. Mm, you can can't.
That was the way. Yeah, everyone's like you just,
it was a paradigm shift, right? I mean, to you, just putting
everything. In the ZK S.
I mean, it's it's kind of it's a trick but it's a trick that
works. Yeah.
And it wasn't practical like it two years ago, right?
Like now things have become much faster and much more advanced
and people have become better at doing this.
And now it's practical. It wasn't practical to years
ago. So it's called.
Yeah. And there are so there's the
succinct Labs. There we actually did for like 4
Z, KV, we do these events sometimes focused on specific
networks so we did one Nah, never mous and actually talked
about ZK Bridges. So there was like, we were able
to find a few other teams doing something similar.
There is like a ZK, IBC. There is a team called seek a
bridge. So yeah, that's maybe that's
also over on the YouTube channel.
So if you do have a linked I can find it, you have New Foundation
that also did this with mean, any Theory.
Mm, yeah that is also has one now as UK bridge and there's a
team coming out of Berkeley as well called I think specular.
So Yeah, that's quite a few teams now.
And in a way this this is something that we had no.
So basically the first deployment of the succinct
Bridge was between the gnosis test net and and and girly the
theorem test that. So in a way we've kind of we've
been tracking this very closely, Yeah, and but the thing is, and
this kind of leads me to my next topic, auditing.
This is so difficult because basically, with a bridge, and I
mean, with the number of Bridge facts, we've seen this year,
let's hope that's. So, we've seen the last of them
for this year, at least, but whatever.
And the number of funds that are typically in bridges and kind of
security is obviously of the utmost concern and I mean,
obviously it sucks with vulnerabilities and more or less
anything. But basically if it's if it's if
it's a game or something obviously it's not you know, the
consequences and that large but yeah.
How do you audit these EK s? How do you make sure that the ZK
circuit because I mean, the byte code itself.
It's not exactly human readable. So yeah, how do you go about
this? So first of all, can I just give
a depressing thought about the security of, like, ZK moments
and bridges in general? This is yes.
But I will counteract your thought afterwards.
But no, go for it. Go for it.
Okay, let's try. So the depressing thought that a
lot of the heck's that We've seen have happened on, let's say
the integration layers. So you have this complex
Solutions, like the circuits and all that, and let's say the
optimistic protocols and that part, but a lot of the hacks
happen on the integration part, let's say on the smart contracts
and so on where you find a bug that happens after you verify
the complex part. And I think that's a lot.
That's the part that where hackers put a lot of effort in
and kind of something that is concerning me, is that when they
start looking at the more complex Parts, maybe maybe
they'll find more holes. So we'll see.
Oh, you're saying like maybe. Yeah.
Okay. So, like the Hat, doctors have
any didn't even need to go. That deep the hacks happened.
Exactly. I mean, I'm totally with you.
I mean Busy the possibility, space for making for introducing
vulnerabilities income tax systems is so large and even if
you look at, if you look like at like the recent Finance bridge
hack and so on, it was actually pretty sophisticated already.
So basically the yeah. So how we actually thought about
this? So obviously we thought about
this for a long time because I mean, I mean we're German
Engineers, right? So we like thinking about
security Education's. Yeah, and audits.
So this is why audits? Yeah, but so far no major hacks.
So, I mean, so far, you know, for a project that's been in
this space for so long. No sir said very few, like
vulnerabilities. And yeah, that's good.
Yeah. I mean, then turn off been any
day. I mean, when you prevent audits
of ZK systems, we do. I mean, just so, you know what,
ZK hack when we introduce these puzzles, they're often based on
historic. Here's so actually like if you
look at the puzzle page on the zika hack site, it's basically
meant to show you. Here's how like a bug can
happen. Here's a vulnerability did
happen, but I think so. I mean the Z cash bug for
example could have been horrific the fact which they don't
believe it has been. I did here, I said because it
would have basically, you would have gotten more in the field,
it pours, right? So basically, you would always
own after its own Their particular system, there was a
way to kind of prove that it didn't happen because of when
they did the upgrade and the number of tokens likes at some
point like you had to move. Yeah.
Yeah not what everyone has but like just a total and so like
had there been this exploit was just like mint Infinity tokens,
you would have seen it but that's like a specific case
where like like there's only like five people in the world
who understood what was happening anyways and like they
all worked there. Like that's I think.
Why? That didn't get exploited.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but that could be how we were thinking
about this. This kind of security is kind of
the its kind of strength in numbers.
Basically, it's like you need to add redundancy.
So as you put like a sieve in a sieve and a see if and then
basically you have something that doesn't is not very seve
like anymore. And so basically our idea and
basically how we are going to Because you don't want to test
anything in production, right? So, basically, how we are going
to kind of move this to production without endangering
client funds or user funds is by actually creating a mighty sick
of bridges. So basically you have you have
the old Omni Bridge which is basically multisig base bridge
and you put it put it in the mighty sick with the new ZK like
language and basically if Agree on a payout, payout happens.
If they don't, agree, pale doesn't happen.
And then basically, you have to you have to in order to
compromise that you have to find a vulnerability in the ZK,
lifetime bridge, but at the same time you actually have to
compromise a majority of the sinus for the mighty Sigrid.
So basically that that would make it like at least you know,
an order of magnitude more difficult to kind of break it.
And we're also working with our Others seek a light line, Bridge
teams. So, basically that in the
future, we will have two or three independent
implementations of ZK like time Bridges.
And basically, there will be an Andrew.
So basically, if these a great payout happens, if these don't
agree, nothing happens. And basically in that way you
can reduce your exposure significantly but no, Masti
because not only you don't have to find just one vulnerability
in one Bridge. You actually have to find
vulnerabilities in three different implementations of ZK
client Bridges. Obviously, that could happen.
If there's like, if you have like a ZK, like like one of
those bugs where there's a, you know, bug in a paper for
instance, like what happened with Z cash at the time, but it
becomes a lot less likely that everything kind of has the same
breaking point. So, No II.
Think I think it's very responsible.
I think it's a good approach like to add Security in depth.
I'm a very big fan of security in depth in general.
So, for example, you know, sometimes even people don't like
things like sgx, right? But they seem like sgx.
Yeah, Fox, it's really difficult to trust but if you ask you,
other dozen other. Yeah, exactly.
Like if you had it as another component of security in depth,
It is something that might add security.
So here if you do like at the multisig bridge and you know,
maybe maybe it's easy to bribe, all of them.
You know, there are some rich people that can drive ball of
designers but it adds some measure of security.
So it is nice and I think that's a very responsible way to
approach it. So but yeah like if we're
talking about like auditing the circuits themselves, I think
it's still pretty hard task. I remember like I was doing some
what it's like, when I when I was encouraged, we also like
audited sapling like the zika shop.
Great for it came out and it seems to me that still the most
successful or the most, elaborate, all that's happened.
When people do manual reviews and they see specification in
front of them and they vet the specification first.
First and then they see that the code matches the specification
and so on and I think the Z cash team has been spectacular in
writing good specifications. And that was something that in
my opinion makes them system. Like I'm have a high confidence
in their system because of that and but Today, we still do a lot
of money a lot. It's there are some companies
that try to improve on that. Like there has been work where
the Kestrel people that now are part of failure.
I think that they've done some other things occasionally.
Yeah, exactly. And very dice is also doing
developing a bunch of tooling around that but still not yet
widely used. But one of the things that I
think, contribute More practically to security.
And still don't happen as much as I would like is the creation
of common components that you can reuse, and that get audited
and then get deployed and have a bunch of steak in them, in some
sense, because they're deployed in a high-stakes places.
And that increases the confidence in the components
themselves. And then if you use this as a
major part in your Application can just quickly back like that.
Exactly. And they think we've done some
of this when we were developing semaphore.
So, we audited this component and some other people were using
them. And I would like to see that
more now in the new Realms of the cave, where we use long and
other kinds of systems. It's harder there because you
also have a lot of sex. Build.
You can customize it a lot, but if we find the community plonk
construction, that we can line on, maybe we can start
developing these components that people could reuse.
And that, that makes a big difference.
Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I think for that also
having some code of some sort of, you know, benchmarking to a
which tells you how much certain components have been used in
what amount riding on them as been.
I think that would be super. Super useful.
That would be nice. Yeah.
Yeah there was a last point, right?
Yes. But it's the KML and I don't
know anything really about that. What what is he KML?
Oh, so that's an interesting thought.
I think it's because it has become.
From 0 to 100 popular in some sense.
It like the last month, maybe maybe a month or two.
So yeah. But it's a topic that become
very popular. So Z KML in general is proving
that you evaluated model that you got the results from
validating machine learning model or a neural network and
proving that you did it correctly with the right model
with With signed inputs or so on.
And in that way, you can run this in different environments.
Not necessarily the environment that consumes the result but
enjoy like be confident that you've got the correct result.
So, one example would be for like face liveness detection,
where you would see someone has Like you can do this for kyc or
things of that sort and but you have other use cases.
You can think about, let's say, G PT 3 today or chat GPT where
you want to know that you're getting the results from the
right model that was at least claim to have been trained on
some specific on some set of inputs and you will then be sure
that it you get the result from that model.
And not something that someone else invented that didn't
include all the history of some region in the world.
Let's say so we recently had Jensen on are you familiar with
them Jensen? Jensen, GE n Sy n.
It was episode 471 basically it's about deep learning compute
and kind of distributed basically making that Muted.
And basically there you also have this checkpointing problem.
They basically, you have two people have to prove that they
actually did, run your the data through some sort of model and
basically, how involved at was. And yeah, we also talked a bit
about how difficult that actually is to prove because
it's not deterministic, so it's yeah.
One other angle on this. So like I have not done a deep
dive so I only like, really all I've understood though is
there's like two ways of thinking about it.
One is the way that Kobe just described if like attesting to
the model but I have heard it all so discreet.
Like I've just I've heard the idea of doing kind of like the
model making building the model on encrypted data or like and so
it's not so much ZK. I think people kind of don't
think that's homomorphic encryption exactly it's probably
going to be like fhe or 80 somehow but yeah just like the
topic of ZK. Also, it's often like super
mixed up with all the other Advanced cryptography like MPC
and FHA which is great. I think they shot.
Yeah. Yeah I mean sometimes you're
actually mixing them and sometimes just like in people's
minds they're like very complicated cryptography over
there difficult. That's there does seem to be
some really cool overlap between the ML and I worlds and ZK now,
which is cool. I'm excited for the new year to
like meet some of these people, building this stuff.
Yeah, some really good people working on this on the KML so
I'm excited to see where it goes.
Quit. So it seems like while like for
the last three years or so. Most of the progress has kind of
hinged on the succinctness property of CK proofs.
It seems like it now, Ventures more into like the Privacy
preserving Ram that obviously can also offer, would you agree?
Oh, and I see Anna kind of weak. Like the Hat.
There's been though. Those two, I think the
blockchain the wanting to scale. The blockchain Accelerated.
This is synchronous for sure. And like the idea of using it as
validity instead of privacy. I think those ideas were really
awesome and they were like super easily kind of understood and
then used, but I do think like, as what I've what has happened
is like DK connecting to blockchain accelerated, ZK
development, so much that now the Libraries are quite good and
they're getting better. They start to be able to be used
even outside of blockchain and often.
In those cases, it is privacy. That's the main part so.
Yeah, I think of examples. Well I did I gave this one
example that I don't know that much about like the video thing
Google. Well the video one but like
Google and gdpr. I mean there was years ago
cloudflare used it in a non blockchain context.
I mean we've talked to people who did like password
protection, Barely touching the blockchain, but I think what
I've understood is all the major like tech companies.
Web two companies have teams building ZK stuff outside of the
blockchain context. I think Apple probably is doing
something but obviously, like, I don't know because they don't
tell you stuff but true private very private.
Yeah, I don't know, I think I think we're going to see a lot
of non blockchains EKU. Cases that use privacy in the,
in the near future. I think like, in some sense that
these non blockchain use cases, we see a lot of, let's say, very
specific instructions for very optimized protocol for concrete,
use case, like you said in cloudflare and and what others
do. And maybe sometimes people don't
bundle them with ZK because we're used to snarks, which are
General purpose but definitely a lot of advanced than super
interesting cryptography happen all around and but yeah.
But actually about privacy. I think if we if we look at it
we actually see would see that the first deployments of ZK in
blockchain was about privacy. Right.
Like scalability came later in the let is truth.
Yeah. Oh I just remember to use We
forgot to mention by the way, and one that's hyper relevant.
Today, it is on chain mostly because proof of reserves and
zk0 yeses and it's actually, I would call it a.
It's a, it's both it's attestation.
But often the reason you're using ZK is also for privacy.
So like so that you're not like just overtly showing everybody's
bank account crypto accounts. You actually can retain some
privacy. Yeah, that's kind of a good
hybrid example. It is a good use case.
No. So what are you guys?
He's excited about for 2023. I well I'm going to be KML is
the place I want to explore. It's already been declared on
the last show. We did of the year.
The Troon is like I predict there will be more Z km L
guests. So I think we're going to we're
going to start bringing on some more folks like that.
That's true. I think that's one very
interesting topic. I'm like you want to go more
like yeah, go for it. So I'm turning the excited to
see the development or the let's see which like the tooling
around ZK and just Advanced cryptography mature, like one
analogy that they had. In my mind is that, you know,
when you start out with electronics, you just connect
like an LED with. Battery and then you have like
you turn on, it's very nice. That's kind of where we were
with the tooling like a year ago and ZK.
So now we're at the part of like maybe something that is more
akin to an Arduino, which is still quite crude and then you
put it on on this board where you put the wires, but it's
still quite messy. So you have this component that
you can connect, but I think we're getting to the stage where
It's become something that feels very real and you can design
extremely complex things that interact with each other.
And you have efficient components that you can connect
like transistors. Like, this is kind of an analogy
that I have in my mind. So I'm excited to see this kind
of tolling, develop and people. Mix mixing and matching these
kind of things. But generally also, So, seeing
other kinds of cryptography, intermixing with those.
So we've seen some of that also, from them bonus Group, by the
way, like this collaborative, snarks approach, where you
combine MPC with snarks, like use proven ZK, the correct
execution of a multi-party computation.
So I would love to see more of that happening and I think it
can unlock bunch of interesting use cases.
Yeah, I think it's the use cases like this past year.
Like, I mean, a lot of what we mentioned today are actually
newer to us to, like they've come up in the last year, not
all of them, but a number of those, I remember years ago,
having a really, like, kind of having just such a few number of
use cases, like trying to pick like, oh, yeah, you can do
payments kind of you can scale but yeah, this time around it's
like there's a real, There's real list and I think it's going
to keep growing. Yeah, I think that I think.
Yeah, exactly. And I think more more let's say
Engineers that do not specialize in your Toga fee would be able
to access these Technologies, which is not quite true today.
So I hope that will happen and that will spark more ideas and
more use cases 2023. What about fears for 20:23?
What is something that we absolutely must get, right?
Cool. Funny my fear for 2021 had come
true actually which was like a large-scale ZK project gets tied
to International crime and it did I think I mean we didn't
talk much about tornado but I think it was a reckoning for the
ZK space and it's pushed teams towards compliance and some
away. I think fears are that.
That people use EK for nefarious purposes that are worse than
Than tornado. I don't know.
That's what I would not want. Yeah, I actually would, let's
say that what we must get right? Is how to how to get people to
use privacy in a way that doesn't hurt them because I
think a lot of people today use privacy and like like the used
tools in general and maybe they don't think about the
implications. So yeah by technological ways in
It's kind of this could be addressed, right?
So for instance, for tornado. There was the idea that you can
have curated lists of addresses. You don't want to be mixed with
and then you can prove that you weren't mixed with these offices
and so on. Then we can just be like an
adblocker where basically you subscribe to some service that
kind of tells you who who not to play with.
And so I think there's actually technological solutions for lots
of things. But what what?
I'm worried about sorry I'm hijacking my own question.
What I'm worried about is that privacy as a concept somehow
gets discredited that it kind of goes down the drain because
people tired to nefarious purposes or basically where it's
been used in the various ways where I would kind of pause it.
And it's a value, right? Basically, it's kind of like
something that that kind of you have you subscribe to our you
don't. But I do believe that privacy
should be a human, right? And I think kind of the erosions
of that. How do you feel about that?
Well, I just I was about to say I think actually tornado in a
way and like a lot of things this year, if anything, right?
This at this moment I actually think there's a renewed interest
in having privacy. I actually think the last few
years there's been more of like a less a fair.
Oh well I actually I think I feel more of like a realization
that it's not just like a fun nice to have but more of a
pillar, if you really want the world, you want, And I think, I
don't know. I felt that at least the tone of
discourse has actually shifted in that way.
So I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that in the new year.
It actually continues to be relevant, if not more relevant.
But we may go through another phase, where we don't care.
That would, that's totally possible.
I mean, I think that is also, like levels of privacy that have
not been properly explored yet like I want privacy from Um,
let's say, I don't want this random person to see what I'm
doing, for example, in my bank account today, but I'm okay
with, I don't know the bank seeing this or some other
entities saying it. So this is the level of privacy
that like like it's not all or nothing like that doesn't
control. Yeah.
Permissions. Or who you reveal it to or Jack
you want privacy from the public?
Definitely. I think this is definitely That
I would like to say but there are levels to this.
I also I do think that the builders, you know, they've made
decisions but I think another decision that's been made is to
use exactly what you described Federica.
These like new architectures or like techniques to actually
avoid the bad behavior but still have these systems for good
actors. I think they're think.
I think a lot of teams are thinking more about that there.
Had been this attitude of, like, oh, well, we decentralized and
we're not in trouble, or we add a viewing key, and then we're
not in trouble, but actually, like the effectiveness of these
are questionable. I think like there are some new
techniques that haven't been explored haven't been used and
maybe they'll be more. And I think people thinking
about those techniques is really important because I think we
want, like you said Kobe. I think we want a place where we
can act pretty I've ately, but we also don't want just Bad
actors to come in and read like use those those tools in ways
that just like hurt Society. Yeah.
I think this, these are really good last words, Anna.
Yeah, you happy with these as last words, for the year, your
last night. Well, my last words for the
year. Let's say good, thank you both
for coming on. Yeah, I'll add a lot.
I am so confused. So my I think I think I would
love some benchmarking, you know, just like some tables that
tell you, this is good at that. This is performance for this,
this solution for this, kind of set of problems to me.
That would be shining a light where it needs to be shown.
So it's a Yeah, but I think the things have to come live.
They have to happen before and then we have to see and then
like I think I hope it was like, it might be a best best team
wins or there might be this really interesting multi L2
scenario with with awesome. ZK Bridges to L ones and they're
all like they have their Niche and their use cases that like
fit for exactly their architecture.
Yeah, it's going to be exciting to see how it comes, how it
goes. Thank you both for coming on.
Thank you for giving us so much of your time and I wish you a
super happy holiday season and get into the new year very
safely. Yeah, you too, always a fun.
Thanks fredericka. Thank you.
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