1 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:31,400 This episode of epicenter Bitcoin is brought to you by 2 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,400 shapeshifters. Dot IO with Noah countersigned 3 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,200 required. It's the easiest way to buy and 4 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,300 sell Litecoin counterparty Dogecoin Dash and other leading 5 00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:43,200 cryptocurrencies go to ship shift that Iota instantly 6 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,300 convert your old coins and to discover the future of crypto 7 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:51,700 currency exchanges and by Ledger makers of The Ledger Nano 8 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,000 Hardware wallet. Have peace of mind in knowing 9 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,000 your product keys are protected by industry standard, physical 10 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,000 security. Go to Ledger wallet.com, to 11 00:00:59,008 --> 00:01:02,000 learn more and use the offer code EB, 09 a check. 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:07,200 Scout to get 10% off your first order and by Vault or oh the 13 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,200 gold to Bitcoin exchange trade gold to bitcoin instantly and 14 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,800 securely starting at just one milligram, go to Vault or a.com 15 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,300 to deposit, some Bitcoin and start trading today. 16 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:29,500 Hello, welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show which talks 17 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:31,600 about that they acknowledge these projects and startups 18 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,300 driving Centralization and the global cryptocurrency 19 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:38,100 Revolution, my name is Sebastien Boucher and my name is Fran, 20 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:40,700 Fabian. Frankie, we're here today with a 21 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,900 man who needs no introduction in the Bitcoin space, although Will 22 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,300 introduce him. Anyway, it's and dries, em 23 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:50,100 Antonopoulos. He is one of the hosts of let's 24 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:53,900 talk Bitcoin and he's also one of the most prolific speakers in 25 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,500 the space and I think he is for sure. 26 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:02,900 The most Adept at just sort of selling Bitcoin to the World and 27 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:04,700 I think he's done a fantastic job here. 28 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:08,600 So yeah, I'm super excited. I'm own and of course he's also 29 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,800 the author of this book here, mastering Bitcoin. 30 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,900 I bought it. And I like it. 31 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:17,200 I think it's so I'm not a programmer done a little bit of 32 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,300 programming, but I think it's perfect to get a better 33 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:22,500 understanding. So Andreas, thanks for joining 34 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:24,500 us. Thank you so much for having me 35 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:26,100 on the show. Guys have been wanting to join 36 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:28,700 you for quite a while now, and it's really a pleasure. 37 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,800 Oh, really, we weren't aware of that. 38 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,800 That is so flattering. Thank Much. 39 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,300 You have no idea. Yeah, we're really glad to have 40 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:37,600 you on it. We had with Brian was saying 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,700 about selling Bitcoin to people that that's definitely a major 42 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:46,500 role that you played in my Early Education of Bitcoin. 43 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:48,700 When I first got into it listening to Al TV and watching 44 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:51,400 your different talks, you definitely played a big role in 45 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,600 selling me on the technology and the idea. 46 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,200 I think probably the same for Brian. 47 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:00,000 Interestingly enough, I don't think I'm at actively trying to 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,000 sell anything to anybody. That's why it works. 49 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,200 Part of the appeal is that I don't have any interest in any 50 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,600 of this. I don't really own that much 51 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,900 Bitcoin, I don't have, you know, a brand I'm pushing or anything 52 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:17,500 like that, but you know what I'm doing is I'm not selling 53 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,700 Bitcoin. I'm simply expressing my own 54 00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:26,100 enthusiasm, my own unique kind of Iki enthusiasm for this 55 00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:31,700 elegant technology and I think that's enthusiasm is infectious 56 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:35,600 and that's that's as far as the selling goes I just really 57 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,100 really enjoy talking about this technology because I find it 58 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:44,900 exciting myself and so when I'm expressing that enthusiasm it's 59 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,400 it's genuine I really feel it it's I'm not putting on a show. 60 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,700 This is this is just me and if you turn off the cameras of in 61 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:57,100 spend six more hours No talking about Bitcoin to anybody who 62 00:03:57,100 --> 00:04:00,800 will listen and, you know the events over I'll take a whole a 63 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:06,300 taxi back to my hotel and I'll get the taxi driver to, to learn 64 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:09,700 about Bitcoin and and, and give them some Bitcoin. 65 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,400 And then I get to the hotel and I'll tell the hotel reception is 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:18,500 the best Bitcoin. This is basically me 24 hours a 67 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:22,700 day talking to people about Bitcoin and just refusing to 68 00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:25,000 shut up. When they tell me it's a And 69 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,700 then, comments and entered the camera. 70 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:30,800 And I just do it under under video recorded. 71 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:35,000 So an average. How many people are they do 72 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,800 talk? Especially new people, you talk 73 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:42,800 with my Bitcoin? Well, it really depends, but I 74 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,300 would say, at least two, or three people a day, unless I'm 75 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,300 doing a big invent event in which case or meeting, lots of 76 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:51,700 people are going somewhere public in which case, it might 77 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:56,200 be hundreds of people a day, and then You know, Twitter and 78 00:04:56,300 --> 00:05:01,600 YouTube multiplying magnify that reach and so I can tell even 79 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,600 more people about the things that I find enthusiastic and 80 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,000 weird and interesting. And that's pretty amazing. 81 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,900 So so they about like three people on average, they be like 82 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:14,300 new people, you tell about Bitcoin, try to, you know, get 83 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:17,100 some Bitcoin, Try It Out, start using it. 84 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,600 That's why I tend to give people Bitcoin. 85 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:26,700 I feel the best way to To deal with Bitcoin is not to try to 86 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:31,100 explain it, but to demonstrate it and to experience it as a new 87 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,000 user. So I help people set up a wallet 88 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,800 and I give them to bitcoin. Usually, you know, I'll get into 89 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,200 a taxi. I'll start a conversation, 90 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,300 they'll say why you in the city. I'll say I'm here for a 91 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:42,300 conference of Bitcoin. Have you heard of Bitcoin? 92 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Let me tell you about Bitcoin and 20 minutes later I'm you 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,900 know they're passing me their Android phone back and saying 94 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:53,500 okay just install a wallet for piano, install a wallet. 95 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:56,700 It's amazing that they They, they trust you with their phone 96 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:59,100 like that after after a 20-minute conversation. 97 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,600 Yeah, I guess. Well, he's just in a put big 98 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,900 coin on in know, so it's, yeah, it's funny. 99 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:10,900 I mean, there's there's other people who do this as well. 100 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:12,200 There's a lot of people who do this. 101 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,300 In fact, a funny story is I was, I was always a bit. 102 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:24,000 I don't know worried about how how I might be treated at say a 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,100 border crossing. Sing right. 104 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:29,700 For if I'm going through customs and you know, because their job 105 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:34,100 is to not allow people to carry currency over borders. 106 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:38,500 I truly avoid the word currency so so you know I'll say I went 107 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:42,000 to bitcoin conference or if they ask me why I'm going into a 108 00:06:42,008 --> 00:06:44,000 country out of a country. I'll say I went to a Bitcoin 109 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,200 conference or e-commerce conference and on one of these I 110 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:54,200 had I was behind Jeff Garza quiz one of the core developers and 111 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,700 he was it was in the same flight as me, returning back from a 112 00:06:56,707 --> 00:06:58,700 conference. It's going through Customs and 113 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:01,700 Border Protection and I'm thinking, you know, she should I 114 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,400 die, I'll save Bitcoin. But you know, I don't want to. 115 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,000 I don't really draw too much attention because I don't want 116 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,400 people ask me a hundred questions. 117 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,800 I don't have any money on me. I'm not transporting Bitcoin, 118 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,900 but I don't want to, you know, cause an issue. 119 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:16,600 And so I watched Jeff in the line in front of me, he's 120 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,500 literally four feet away, steps up to the custom border guy. 121 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,100 The guy says, so, where were you doing? 122 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:24,900 And he says, oh I was at a Bitcoin conference Have you 123 00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:26,700 heard of Bitcoin? She's amazing. 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,800 So you can take money and send it from one place in the world 125 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,900 to another place that he's waving his arms. 126 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:37,800 He's like, and he does basically, like a 30 minute 30, 127 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,900 second Pitch to the Border guy who stamping his passport and he 128 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,500 says, and the porticus like, yeah, that sounds really 129 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:49,400 interesting. Okay, well, mr. 130 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,700 Garcia. Welcome to United States is so 131 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:54,200 funny. I was thinking I don't want to 132 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,000 get Into it, he's like doing a say, you know, full on Pitch. 133 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,000 So, yeah, I'm not the only person who just has a lot of 134 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,300 difficulty, containing their enthusiasm about this 135 00:08:04,300 --> 00:08:07,000 technology. I think a lot of the early 136 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,800 adopters and a lot of the people who are really, really into this 137 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:12,300 amazing. Technology. 138 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:16,900 You know, they're that guy at the party or that girl party. 139 00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:23,100 It won't shut up about Bitcoin. Yeah, that that's cool. 140 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:28,800 So come Catchy your book, tell us how what's the reception been 141 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,400 like? Oh, it's really going very well. 142 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:38,100 It's I think it's already sold just over two and a half 143 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:41,799 thousand, almost 3,000 copies, which is really good for 144 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,100 technology book. So it seems to be going very 145 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:46,400 well. It's a number one bestseller on 146 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:50,300 Amazon's e-commerce online trading and digital currency 147 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:54,100 section. It's selling both in print and 148 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:56,600 digital. Oil, and most importantly it's 149 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,600 available. Open source available for anyone 150 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,200 to read for free. You can download it, you can 151 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,100 share it, you can forward the PDF, you can do whatever you 152 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:08,300 want, really with it. And recently, we change the 153 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:09,900 license because it was going well. 154 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,100 And so now, it's under Creative, Commons share-alike attribution, 155 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,200 which means that now you can also do derivatives and use it 156 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,700 for commercial purposes, and do translations. 157 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:21,900 And there's a bunch of teams working on translations. 158 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:26,600 So the bolt can be used as a basis for Is and videos and 159 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,200 whatever else you want to use. It's fully open culture. 160 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,400 License, is that common for O'Reilly or other Publishers to 161 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,900 do that? To allow the books to be open 162 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:38,400 source? It's pretty rare for a publisher 163 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,000 to do. That O'Reilly is special and the 164 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,800 reason I pitched it to a Riley was because of O'Reilly's very 165 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,000 long history with with open source and comfort with open 166 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,700 source. And so, once once the book is 167 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,900 doing well, And showing that it can generate sales and they're 168 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,400 very comfortable with gradually opening up the license. 169 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,600 And now we've reached a point where it's a full free culture 170 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,700 license. And and and that's why, you 171 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:09,000 know, all Riley is just an amazing publisher of technical 172 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,000 books. But they're also an amazing kind 173 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,600 of global Citizen and, and supporter of free culture and 174 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,500 free knowledge and bringing that knowledge that people and 175 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,800 honestly, it doesn't affect sales badly, it actually makes 176 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,300 sales A lot of people who will download the book, read it to 177 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:29,000 then, buy a copy so that they have it. 178 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:32,000 The people who can't afford to buy the book by it, and the 179 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,500 people who can't afford the book by the book, read it, and then 180 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,100 give it to others who may be buy it. 181 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,600 So, it's all good our show today is brought to you by our friends 182 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600 at shape-shift shape-shift is the fast and easy way to trade 183 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,000 all coins. 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Here's how this works. 192 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,500 You head over to shape-shift that. 193 00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:13,200 I owe you tell them which currency want to sell and give 194 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,800 them the wallet address for the currency went to buy. 195 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:19,000 Let's say you want to sell some Dogecoin, they get some Dash, 196 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,600 you then simply send to those consider address State, provide 197 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,500 you shape-shift converts it for And puts a dash directly into 198 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,500 your wallet. It's that smooth. 199 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:31,400 Long gone are the days when you had to give any change, your 200 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,800 password, tell them your shoe size. 201 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,500 Wait, six, confirmations just to buy some popcorn, will shape 202 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,100 shift conversion to instantaneous and your privacy 203 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:43,700 remains protected. So head over the shapeshifter 204 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:47,300 that IO and start creating some old coins today we would like to 205 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:49,900 thank shape-shift we do support a represent a Bitcoin. 206 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,600 What made you want to write this book? 207 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:58,900 In the grand scheme of things. I really wanted to get the 208 00:11:58,908 --> 00:12:02,800 knowledge out people when I was trying to learn about Bitcoin 209 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,900 the source is the were available works really fragmented. 210 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,400 The developer guide wasn't out there at the time the Bitcoin 211 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,700 Wiki was in complete and partial and you had to Rome all across 212 00:12:13,700 --> 00:12:17,600 it to find any information. There was no single source that 213 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,400 had, you know, a good collection of all of the basic information 214 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,700 and how it works Soup To Nuts and In a way that has a 215 00:12:25,708 --> 00:12:29,100 consistent narrative and flow, not just bits of technical 216 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:34,300 information all Loosely dumped. And so I thought it would be 217 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:37,900 useful to people. Honestly, I think that for 218 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:41,400 Bitcoin to become mainstream the first thing that happens isn't, 219 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400 you know, millions of end users. The first thing that happens is 220 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:48,000 tens of thousands of software developers who are going to 221 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,800 build great applications and great user interfaces, so that 222 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,700 users can adopt this technology. It's going To take hundreds of 223 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:59,300 thousands of software developers to make this, what I can be. 224 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:03,000 And we're already seeing this happen, but I thought that would 225 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,000 be an area to to contribute. Now, there's a second reason 226 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,900 which is a selfish reason which is that you never really grasped 227 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:16,900 a subject fully and in depth until you try to teach it. 228 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,500 I did not have the focus and the ability and the and the 229 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:26,500 programming skills. Quite honestly, To be a full 230 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,000 full time. Core developer contributor, or 231 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,800 anything like that. I dabble in programming. 232 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,300 I've dabbled in programming all my life and I'm a decent program 233 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:40,900 but I'm not a professional and and I can't keep the focus on 234 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:44,700 something like that. So my best chance to really, 235 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:49,100 really learn Bitcoin was to try to write a book about it and you 236 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,400 know, in writing the book, it brought up a lot of questions 237 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,000 and the gradually by answering those questions. 238 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,400 Questions and learning. I finished the book and and now 239 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,500 I know a lot more about Bitcoin than I did. 240 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,100 When I started the book seems crazy to me that the that you 241 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:06,200 would feel that you need to learn more about Bitcoin. 242 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,300 Oh. And I can tell you, I am still. 243 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:13,200 So, so so much, I need to learn and even even the book. 244 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800 I mean, you know, this is a book for developers who are trying to 245 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,900 enter the space of Bitcoin. Maybe they have a bit of 246 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:23,300 background in cryptography, maybe they have a bit of, you 247 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:25,200 know, software. Experience and they're trying to 248 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,200 enter Bitcoin. But, you know, any one of the 249 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,700 core developers can open this book and find 20 things that 250 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:35,600 are, you know, from slightly wrong to quite wrong and big 251 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,100 gaps and in bits that are missing. 252 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:44,900 So, don't for a moment there, imagine the, I'm, I'm certainly 253 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:49,500 not even close to being the most knowledgeable person on bitcoin. 254 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:54,200 I'm not, you know, in cryptography and you know Oh, 255 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,600 there there are some real hardcore genius Geeks Behind 256 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,500 These behind the core development team, you know, 257 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:06,300 behind many of the projects involved in Bitcoin who do 258 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:11,100 nothing all day, but that my skill is really an explaining 259 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,700 things in easy to understand terms and relating to an 260 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:16,200 audience. So I know enough Bitcoin to be 261 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,900 dangerous and be able to explain it. 262 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,000 Yeah, I mean so for me as well, write that been working on this. 263 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,500 for now, I guess, almost two years to that heard about 264 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:33,500 Bitcoin and On the one hand I have a good understanding of it. 265 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:37,300 On the other hand I'm just scratching the surface know and 266 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:40,500 there's so much I don't understand and I think there are 267 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:43,700 so much that fail. Frankly nobody really 268 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:47,000 understands I think especially when we start thinking of the 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,800 longer term how it's all going to play out. 270 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,800 It's so hard. Yeah everybody's learning. 271 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,500 I mean this is unprecedented stuff but they're there is a 272 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,900 really really really smart people in this space with 273 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,600 Credible depths of knowledge and, and in cryptography and 274 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,700 security and distributed systems and software engineering. 275 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:08,900 Whoo, whoo. Whoo. 276 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,700 We're just blessed to have in this space and it's really 277 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:13,900 amazing to watch. Yeah, absolutely. 278 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,900 And I have to say, I think use you did strike. 279 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,700 It really nice balance between sort of Technical and, you know, 280 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,700 the non-technical. So for, you know, for me as 281 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:26,100 someone like understands Bitcoin, but I've never liked 282 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,900 program Bitcoin. It's, I think it's nice. 283 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600 Nice. Because it is a deeper sort of 284 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,100 bit deeper dive into the topic but it's not overwhelming. 285 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,100 I think it's very great, I just spoke. 286 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:42,400 So thank you. A lot of work went into creating 287 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,700 the correct analogies to be able to describe some of the more 288 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,800 complex aspects of Bitcoin in ways that were easy to 289 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,800 understand for someone who had a technical inclination. 290 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,300 But not necessarily was a professional programmer, but, 291 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:00,800 you know, the book is really designed for, Engineers 292 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,700 developers architecture, Engineers, security, engineers, 293 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:11,000 and Technical professionals. It's not a beginner's guide to 294 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,400 bitcoin. It's not for, you know, people 295 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,099 who do not have a technical background, they're going to 296 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:21,099 find it, honesty to, to Technical. 297 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,800 And there are other books that address that audience. 298 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,500 Now, would you say that perhaps for a developer, I'm talking 299 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:29,800 about pronounce myself, you know? 300 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,200 Getting getting involved and no, trying trying some things out of 301 00:17:35,208 --> 00:17:36,600 technically. I like to dabble. 302 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:41,100 I'm not a really strong developer, but I have some 303 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:42,900 development experience. I've been a web developer 304 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:47,300 before, like, getting into this book and trying some command 305 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,900 line stuff. Is that also sort of the 306 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:54,000 audience you're going for or really just sort of the. 307 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,900 Yes, absolutely would be ideal for that. 308 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:59,300 There's certainly enough examples in the book so you can 309 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:03,400 try You know, with relatively easy to use languages and common 310 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,300 languages C++ python, Etc, you could try and a lot of command 311 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,900 line examples. So you could go beyond the 312 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:14,100 surface of using a wallet or user interface and be able to 313 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:18,700 roll your own key convert, a key from one format to another 314 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,000 build, an HD wallet Etc. Now that doesn't mean you 315 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,000 necessarily build a secure system and I certainly would 316 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,200 hope you wouldn't take these experiments learning experiments 317 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,000 into production. And you know, we know what 318 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,500 happens when someone who dabbles in programming tries to, right? 319 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,800 Let's say I don't know, an exchange in PHP. 320 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,100 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 321 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:44,600 Bad things happen. I was thinking more like, maybe 322 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,000 some some HTML or something now, can I know? 323 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,800 But I think to get it, I think that to get a better 324 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,500 understanding of the protocol, you know, someone who wants to 325 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:57,100 get a better understanding of the protocol could absolutely 326 00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:00,800 read this book. And, and Their hands dirty with 327 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,400 some some Python and maybe some Clement command line stuff. 328 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,700 Yeah. And and the book is also its 329 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,300 evolving. So the second print happened, 330 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,400 four days ago, contains a lot of Correction and a bit of new 331 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,600 material, and some clarifications in various places 332 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:26,200 and I'm getting contributions from the community code 333 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,300 examples, new sections of the book. 334 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:33,200 And so it's going to continue to expand, its continue to evolve, 335 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,100 I expect by mid-year. We're going to have a second 336 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:40,300 edition in the works, and probably by late summer. 337 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:43,600 We're going to have a second edition come out with 338 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,300 significant additional content. You know, I look I work this 339 00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:51,900 book and the publisher works this book as a software project. 340 00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,900 So we're doing minor version releases all the time, and we're 341 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,900 going to do a very major release in the summer with a nice 342 00:19:57,900 --> 00:19:59,800 changelog. Full of features and not just 343 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Feet fixes. Right? 344 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,300 I suppose also as new versions of Bitcoin core come out. 345 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:08,200 You also have to update it. Yeah, absolutely. 346 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,500 There's a lot of Keeping Up With The Changes, you know, just 347 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:19,600 recently about a maybe a month ago, for example, the data 348 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,900 storage capabilities, with Opera turn changed. 349 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:27,800 So some you command lines, were added size of the maximum size 350 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,800 change from 40, bytes to 80 by Tina. 351 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,800 That's important information. So that required an update in 352 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,000 the book and and those open source version keeps in perfect 353 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,800 sync with the published version. So, if you download the 354 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,900 open-source one, you can see all of that information. 355 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:45,500 So is it? This is, I presume how you've 356 00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,400 been spending most of your time. No, I mean you give a lot of 357 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,700 talks, then at the book, of course, the writing, and now 358 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,900 also promoting and reaching developers, talking with them, 359 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:59,800 and trying to sort of, I guess fuel that that slow Revolution. 360 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,700 Or maybe fast Revolution that's happening as more and more 361 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:05,200 people start using this and cryptocurrencies. 362 00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:11,800 Well, yes, speaking conferences. Meetups I do a lot of community 363 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,100 events made up some interviews and things like that that takes 364 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:19,200 up a lot of my time. I'm preparing a second book that 365 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,300 I'm going to start working on in the summer with with another 366 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:25,500 author. Can't give too much detail on 367 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:31,900 that and I'm launching start out to do some, some work in a 368 00:21:31,908 --> 00:21:34,100 specific area of Bitcoin that I'm interested in. 369 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,400 Can you hear anything about that or? 370 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,100 Well, it's going to happen in the next three weeks, but it 371 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:43,900 involves cold storage for keys and so they'll be some 372 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:45,800 additional announcements about that. 373 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,000 So helping companies do cold storage and you know, second 374 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,200 book more work. I also work as a as an advisor 375 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,800 for a number of different Bitcoin startups. 376 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:05,400 So helping them with strategic advice with understanding the 377 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,700 technology roadmap and where things are going and the trends 378 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,600 customers market dynamics, you know, how to build the best 379 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,600 product, how to secure it, how to launch it, how to get it to 380 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,400 Market. And so working with Executives 381 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,900 of the number of different Bitcoin startups, generally 382 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:25,700 speaking, if I'm an adviser to a Bitcoin startups you wouldn't 383 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:28,900 know it's because they're they're allowed to use my advice 384 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:32,700 but not my name. Yeah no that makes sense. 385 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,800 I guess we had this in between you and be as a bit unfortunate 386 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:43,100 how that turned out so yeah they ended up abusing my name and and 387 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:47,000 in that particular case that changed the way I had to deal 388 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,000 with companies because when I first started that relationship 389 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,100 I really didn't have a reputation in the space to worry 390 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:59,600 about and so I didn't realize that someone could have used my 391 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,300 name Make make it appear as if I was doing a lot more for that 392 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,600 company that I was which was just a bit of Consulting and and 393 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,900 then, you know, draw customers in by the idea that I was a 394 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,700 participant, which are awesome. So anyway, I had to change my 395 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,300 practices to make sure that that couldn't happen again. 396 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,800 So now, if I, if I work for a company, that's the last time 397 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,500 you ever hear me mention it, since they don't mention me 398 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,700 today's magic word is Mastery Mas. 399 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,900 Ste Ry head over, let's talk Bitcoin.com to sign in enter the 400 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:38,100 magic word and claim your part of the listener reward. 401 00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:44,700 Now we're going to when I speak a little bit about sort of 402 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:46,500 Bitcoin and where that is evolving. 403 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:52,500 But I wanted to dive a comeback make quickly to the aspect of 404 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:57,400 sort of communicating Bitcoin to like lay people on bitcoin, has 405 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,700 anyone really What are you some things that people should avoid 406 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:09,800 that they often do? Yeah, I think it's first of all 407 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,600 and this is something I've been doing consistently since day. 408 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,000 One is, I do not recommend Bitcoin as an investment, I 409 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,100 recommend against investing in Bitcoin. 410 00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:24,000 You do not treat Bitcoin as an investment vehicle, if you know 411 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,300 what you're doing, if you're a sophisticated investor, you 412 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:30,000 know, how to build a diversified portfolio and you know, how to 413 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,800 make something that is extremely volatile. 414 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,500 A small part of that portfolio in a Are structured way. 415 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:39,300 Sure. Maybe you can invest in Bitcoin, 416 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:43,100 but for the average person, this is not, this is absolutely not. 417 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:47,600 So, saying, saying say, for wise investment because of volatility 418 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,800 because of uncertainty, it's it's a technology that can move 419 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,700 very, very fast. So just like you wouldn't, you 420 00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:59,200 wouldn't invest in biotech penny stocks, even if they made the 421 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,500 most incredible invention in biotechnology, you wouldn't 422 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,700 invest in those, you don't invest in these kinds of things. 423 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:08,700 There are much more Much safer Investments to plan. 424 00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:11,500 So first of all, don't go telling people to go buy lots of 425 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:12,700 Bitcoin. That's a terrible idea. 426 00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:16,600 What it will do is it will give people the wrong idea about what 427 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200 Bitcoin is. It will feed kind of the 428 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,400 get-rich-quick greedy attitude and and it eventually will end 429 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,400 up with people getting burned by making these Investments. 430 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,400 And then they'll blame Bitcoin and that would be unfortunate. 431 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:37,800 I think it's also important not to try to Sell Bitcoin although 432 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,700 and certainly very enthusiastic about it. 433 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:47,200 The idea here is to really help people experience it. 434 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:52,700 So, rather than trying to project your own perspective of 435 00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:55,800 what Bitcoin can do, try to, think about what it can do, for 436 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,500 the person you're talking to, how can it help them solve a 437 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:02,100 problem in their life? And then basically, address the 438 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,400 benefits, talk about what been what benefits Bitcoin. 439 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,300 Could bring to their life, does it make it easier to do online 440 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:12,700 Commerce as and make it easier to send money abroad? 441 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:15,700 Does it make it? Does it just simply give them an 442 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:17,800 experience. Like, listen, this is a very 443 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,200 futuristic form of money. It'd be cool to try out and see 444 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,900 how the future of money looks like. 445 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,100 So, how about I give you a couple of dollars for free and 446 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:29,000 you install a wallet and play with it and then we'll bounce 447 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,500 some money back and forth and you'll see how easy it is and 448 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,200 just get that experience. So I think What's the best way 449 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,000 to to Really deliver a Bitcoin is to help people experiencing 450 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,900 by demonstrating it by giving them a bit of free Bitcoin and 451 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,200 helping them set up a wallet, and then showing them how it 452 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,700 works. In terms of a slogan as a whole, 453 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:54,200 I just go with a very, very simple idea. 454 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,900 I say, you know, Bitcoin is the internet of money. 455 00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:00,300 It's a network, it's not a company. 456 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,900 It's you don't have to sign up. You just download software that 457 00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:08,100 speaks Bitcoin. And it will do to money. 458 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,800 What Skype did two phone calls and what emailed it to the post 459 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800 office and if you understand why Skype is really useful 460 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,300 technology, then if you could do that with money, how would it 461 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,300 change your life and let me show you some excellent. 462 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:24,700 Yeah, and then I think one, one big advantage of actually giving 463 00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:27,700 people Bitcoin and having them do a Bitcoin transaction is that 464 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,600 when you explain it, it seems so abstract, right? 465 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,300 It's like this thing and then like oh maybe then I'm going to 466 00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,500 use this as well. Few years and people maybe even 467 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,800 understand conceptually that this is a powerful thing stuff, 468 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,900 but they don't see themselves like using it like right now 469 00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:45,800 here. And then it's like, wow, this 470 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200 actually, I mean, just just the fact that you could install an 471 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,800 app on their phone and send them money and then tell them the 472 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,600 they could take that money. And in exactly the same way, 473 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,900 send it to their cousin on another continent or someone 474 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:04,900 they met on Twitter just today or any of that. 475 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:08,200 It blows their mind because they start making comparisons their 476 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,800 banking system that if they have that application running for a 477 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,300 bit and they used it every now and then and tried it out. 478 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,100 The good news is that eventually their bank will demonstrate to 479 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:22,300 them exactly why Banks suck. So, as long as you have the 480 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:25,200 Bitcoin experience to compare with eventually, your bank is 481 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,200 going to freeze your money delay, a check for three days 482 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,300 charge you ridiculous fee for something you never, you know, 483 00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:35,300 agree to or do some other thing like that there. 484 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,500 Really good at doing it and then you will suddenly think, huh? 485 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,900 Hang on a second. So, how come you're only open 486 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:44,400 Monday to Friday 9 to 5 or 9 to 4? 487 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,600 It takes three days to transmit money from my account. 488 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,900 To, another account in the same bank, you always hold my money 489 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:55,500 but take the fees immediately, etc. 490 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,100 Etc, etc, etc. Why is this still happening in 491 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:00,800 the era of the Internet? Isn't there a better way? 492 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,100 And then you realize, oh wait, that guy. 493 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:05,100 I met in the taxi showed me a better way. 494 00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:06,900 Hang on. Let me check this Bitcoin thing 495 00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:08,800 out again. I think I still have that wallet 496 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,800 installed. You guys have pretty good in the 497 00:29:10,808 --> 00:29:12,600 state's banks are open on Monday there. 498 00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:18,700 Wow yeah. They'll give you started about 499 00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,700 how Banks suck. No, I think these are all really 500 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:24,800 good points is, I think especially helping people 501 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,400 experience it for themselves and not projecting like your own 502 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,900 aspirations about Bitcoin. But sort of trying to 503 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,400 illustrate, help them, find out how it how it could benefit. 504 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,700 Is a really good approach that the reasons you like Bitcoin is 505 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:41,400 not necessarily the reasons people like Bitcoin. 506 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,800 It's a technology that while it does have, you know, a liberal 507 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,500 political bent to it and that it empowers individuals control 508 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,600 their money beyond that. Really we all project our own 509 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,300 aspirations and desires and worldview on to it. 510 00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:59,400 And it's important to remember the audience you're talking to, 511 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,400 and express it in a way that makes sense to them for many 512 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,800 people. You know, some of the World 513 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,500 Views that are exhibited in the Bitcoin community may be a huge 514 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:13,200 turnoff and so they may not think that's a good idea. 515 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:16,500 Now, one thing that's been a challenge for me, when 516 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:22,300 explaining Bitcoin to people is sort of explaining to them that 517 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:26,300 this is not just about money, that every aspect is of society, 518 00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:31,900 will eventually be impacted by, by blockchain Technologies. 519 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:35,400 But most people seem to be at this sort of very low. 520 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,600 Level explanation of this is money. 521 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,200 It's used for money laundering, Etc. 522 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,700 How do you go about explaining to people that? 523 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:46,500 Yes, this is revolutionary and it like in 20 years perhaps even 524 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:51,200 less it will, it'll be part of your life just as the internet 525 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,700 is part of every aspect of your life. 526 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,000 Well, unless they're there to watch a conference or Veil where 527 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,600 they want to hear some kind of visionary statement about the 528 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,400 future. I don't, I really don't. 529 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,700 I just I I give them something extremely practical and, you 530 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,100 know, last week I was talking to my driver. 531 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,200 I said, you know, where do you come from? 532 00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:18,400 And they said to come from Haiti. 533 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,200 So do you have family back in Haiti? 534 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,900 Yeah. You send the money. 535 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:25,800 Yeah, I send the money. Every every couple of weeks. 536 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,100 Do you use Western Union? Yeah. 537 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,300 Let me tell you about Bitcoin. And I'm not going to talk about 538 00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:33,600 how it's going to change the world. 539 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:37,100 I'm going to talk about how it's going to change their money 540 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:42,400 transfer to Haiti, not now. But maybe in three years from 541 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,600 something that is a eight percent transaction to something 542 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,200 that is a point eight percent transaction to something that 543 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,900 can only happen by standing in line at an office to something 544 00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:56,900 that can happen from your phone directly. 545 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,200 And then their next question is, how do I get this big? 546 00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:04,700 I say, well, you drive a taxi, you could drive a taxi and get 547 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,900 paid in Bitcoin, by people who have Bitcoin, I could pay you 548 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,500 for this ride in Bitcoin, you don't have to go buy it, you can 549 00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:16,600 earn it with through your labor and and, and that changes the 550 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,600 conversation. It's I'm not talking about a 551 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,400 revolutionary technology that Will unseat the governments of 552 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,500 the world leading to, you know, as universal currency and 553 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:30,100 decentralization wave that will sweep away nation states while 554 00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:30,900 Bob. Blah, blah. 555 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:33,000 No. I'm like, you know, just maybe 556 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,200 send a bit more money to your family in Haiti, simple stuff. 557 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,100 Cool, good advice, thanks. So, you've also been quite 558 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:45,500 active. I mean you've spoken at before, 559 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:49,600 can the Canadian and Australian parliament's on the topic of 560 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,000 Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies? What is that experience? 561 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,700 Been like for you and what have you taken away from that? 562 00:32:56,100 --> 00:33:02,800 Well, I'm when I, when I speak to Those kinds of bodies and the 563 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:06,600 two times that I have, I think a critical component of that. 564 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,700 Is that the presentation I'm making, is simultaneously 565 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:15,800 broadcast live, and uncensored on a national television 566 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,700 network, which allows their constituents and the population 567 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,100 of that country to watch, if they're interested. 568 00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:24,500 And then the video will be published immediately after for 569 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:28,600 other people to watch. Which means that when I'm 570 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,600 speaking to the Senate, And they're speaking to me. 571 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,500 Both of us are very well aware that half of it, were speaking 572 00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:38,800 to someone else were speaking to a giant audience out there, not 573 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,000 just to each other. And that's really important 574 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,400 because they give me a platform where I can speak without 575 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,000 censorship to a broad population and answer their questions 576 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,700 truthfully. But in a way that allows me to 577 00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:55,000 establish, I think the the important points about Bitcoin 578 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:59,900 which allows me to dispel certain myths, and certain, you 579 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:03,000 know, he's To to run two fallacies. 580 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,300 The statements about Bitcoins Hughes for drugs and terrorism 581 00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:09,199 and pornography which is the same crap. 582 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,300 We heard about the internet in the 90s and allows me to very 583 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:17,400 directly address those questions diffuse them and speak about the 584 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,500 global potential speak about jobs and opportunity and growth 585 00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:23,500 and speak about votes and younger generation. 586 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,199 Let me just say how great you have been of diffusing, those 587 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,300 questions. By the way, I mean they they 588 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:32,699 keep coming and you keep just Deflecting them with such ease 589 00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:35,400 and Grace. It's really amazing about you do 590 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,400 that out. Just before the show. 591 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,100 I was watching the part of the Australian Senate hearings and 592 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,500 and I want one of the Senators brought up something relating to 593 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:47,699 the drugs and money laundering and you just took it like a 594 00:34:47,699 --> 00:34:49,800 champ. Thank you. 595 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,100 I mean, part of that this practice honestly, you know, 596 00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:56,000 before I did either of those two, I spent quite a lot of time 597 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,600 practicing with, with people asking me very hostile 598 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,700 questions. And half of that is knowing how 599 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:05,300 to answer the question. And trust me I've had lots of 600 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,300 practice because these questions come up again, and again. 601 00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:13,100 And again, it's part of the framing of the media to 602 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,800 immediately go for a very sensationalist angle and they 603 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,500 don't just do it to bitcoin. It's not like conspiracy against 604 00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,300 Bitcoin. They did this to the internet, 605 00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:23,900 they did this to the automobile. They did this to electricity. 606 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:28,700 They've done this to every new and disruptive technology but 607 00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:32,700 part of it is Practice. And the other one is simply a 608 00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:39,300 presenting an emotional story which is that I'm not going to 609 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:43,300 freak out and start screaming. I'm not going to be offended and 610 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:48,000 I'm slightly amused by the fact that that question has come up 611 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,100 again. And then I address it very, very 612 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:54,200 calmly. And in a way that that shows 613 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,800 that there's nothing to hide, nothing extreme going on here, 614 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,200 is really just a misunderstanding and we have 615 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,100 Important things to talk about. And so, that's really a matter 616 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:08,800 of practice, but I'm very glad I had the opportunity to do that a 617 00:36:08,808 --> 00:36:11,400 couple of times. And quite honestly, I'm really 618 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,800 lucky because both times it went very well. 619 00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:17,400 So one of the concerns I had with the Australian Senate was, 620 00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:24,000 I'm 10 ahead in terms of Senate's presentations, if it 621 00:36:24,008 --> 00:36:27,300 goes, well, I'll be 20. But if it doesn't, it will be a 622 00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:30,200 tie and hopefully wipe out my my score. 623 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,900 Or you know, and and keep in mind part of the you think it 624 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:39,200 went well because they were open to the ideas and they discuss 625 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,700 them in a non-threatening manner. 626 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,200 Even if I had done the exact same job to a different 627 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,500 audience, they may have been extremely hostile extremely 628 00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:51,300 negative and dismissive and then you would have assumed it went 629 00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:53,200 poorly when I did the exact same thing. 630 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,500 So I don't have control over that so far I've been lucky both 631 00:36:56,500 --> 00:37:00,100 the Canadian and Australian Senate were very welcoming. 632 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,900 Very open to discussion. They paid attention, they listen 633 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:07,100 carefully, they had done their homework. 634 00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:12,300 They didn't come in with some kind of crazy, Mad conspiracy 635 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,800 theory and and just Bluster and things like that. 636 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,200 Which tells you why I haven't done a presentation for the 637 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:25,400 u.s., you know, I'd expect more. I mean, some of them are okay, 638 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,000 but some of those committees are dressed. 639 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,600 Like whoa, crazy. We have people getting up at the 640 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,700 senate floor and throwing snowballs on the ground and 641 00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:38,600 saying, look at proofs. No, global warming exists like 642 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,200 say you can't complain just you just can't. 643 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:46,500 Yeah. So what do you think is the most 644 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:51,300 threatening aspect of Bitcoin for regulators and lawmakers? 645 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:57,800 II think it's mistaking, it's mistaken control for security. 646 00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:04,100 It's it's this assumption that because you can, you have some 647 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:06,700 control over something that gives you the illusion of 648 00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:12,500 security, and then you rather than seeing security as a 649 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:14,900 secondary symptom of that control, you see it, as 650 00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:18,500 inherently tied to the control and then eventually, you think 651 00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:22,400 the only way to achieve security is through tights control, okay? 652 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,900 Hissing. And and then when you see 653 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,300 something that doesn't have tight control, you automatically 654 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:31,000 assume it has no security or that it represents a threat. 655 00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:34,900 So one of the main things about Bitcoin, the confuses people, is 656 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:40,800 because we've never had a system that does decentralized 657 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,700 security, the two terms, decentralized and security, see 658 00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:46,700 seem to be until 2008 to contradiction in terms 659 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,000 centralized control was security and therefore, if you don't have 660 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,800 as control, if there's no one who's accountable, if there's no 661 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,800 one holding the levers of power, then it how can it possibly be 662 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,900 secure? How can it possibly not be 663 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:05,100 corruptible, you know? Of course, from my perspective, 664 00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:07,500 the exact opposite is true. You know, if you have someone 665 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,800 holding the leaves of power, that's the one you corrupt and 666 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,600 then the system becomes corruptible from the top down 667 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,000 and it's very difficult to fix that. 668 00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:20,500 And so the idea of diffuse power across a network is actually 669 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:22,400 appealing because it's less corruptible. 670 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,000 But that is not an accepted conventional wisdom. 671 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,900 That is a pretty disruptive architecture and radical 672 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:34,300 thought. It requires a change in thinking 673 00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:39,500 and perspective, it requires proof that this can be done and 674 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,700 increasingly. We're delivering that proof with 675 00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:44,900 Bitcoin but it's still challenges. 676 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:47,000 The basic assumptions. Don't World Views of a lot of 677 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,600 people who associate hierarchical Authority and 678 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,200 control with security and they G8, the lack of hierarchical 679 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,200 authority and control with Anarchy and not on archaea. 680 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,500 Some of the people in the Bitcoin community mean it but 681 00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,000 complete chaos, the breakdown of civil order you know people 682 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,500 eating babies and rioting through the streets and burning 683 00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:12,100 all the buildings down and, you know, raping our daughters. 684 00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:18,600 So so therefore any any challenge to centralization 685 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,000 hierarchy and Authority immediately leads to You know 686 00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:28,200 Isis or whatever. The latest Bugaboo is a complete 687 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:34,500 breakdown of civilization and and Chaos that is obviously a 688 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,200 very naive perspective, in my opinion. 689 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400 And I think it misses a lot of the really big challenges we 690 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,600 have with hierarchical institutions and Authority, but 691 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,800 it's still a difficult sell and you have to do it carefully, and 692 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,200 it's also a generational thing. For a generation of people who 693 00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:59,000 grew up in a certain worldview in the past, this is an 694 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,800 established fact. For a younger generation who 695 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,100 see, every social institution around them has failed them, the 696 00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:10,400 school's, the courts, the police, the the government, the 697 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,800 jobs, the corporation's, the electoral system, all of these 698 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,600 things, one, after the other failing them, and the one thing 699 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,100 that isn't failing them is the internet. 700 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:25,100 And so, for our Generation. In fact it's very easy to sell 701 00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:26,700 this idea because they already get it. 702 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:33,600 Like you know, this is not the same structure as the one that 703 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,500 has failed. You. 704 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:37,100 It's the same structure as the one you have hope in the 705 00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,700 internet. Yeah, I think it's a good way of 706 00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,300 phrasing. It, that it is a, even when 707 00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,900 maybe lawmakers and Regulators, focus on issues, like the 708 00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:50,900 consumer protection, is not really those issues. 709 00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:52,400 They're concerned about, but it's more difficult. 710 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:56,100 It's like they fear of losing control and things descending 711 00:41:56,100 --> 00:42:00,100 into some some world that. Yeah, they can't control 712 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:02,300 anymore. I think that's, that's really, 713 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,100 that's really it. Yeah, I mean, I'd love it. 714 00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:09,400 If regulation delivered consumer protection, where was my 715 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,900 consumer protection in 2008, but because it didn't deliver and 716 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,900 that, and that's the fundamental thing that I, we have to 717 00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:20,400 address, which is the it's nice in theory, what you're saying. 718 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:24,500 But the truth is that when it mattered, Regulation and 719 00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:27,400 centralized institutions, did not deliver consumer protection. 720 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:34,000 They abandoned consumers and they betrayed the social Compact 721 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,400 and trust and that is a fact. So, we can either pretend it 722 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,100 didn't happen or we can address why it happened, how it happened 723 00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:46,400 and how we can solve it. And I think simply saying, well 724 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,200 let's do more regulation when regulation was at the root cause 725 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,100 or at least the corruption Of regulators was at the root cause 726 00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,500 of these failures until you show me. 727 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:59,900 Actual consumer protection. I'm going to say, well, why 728 00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:04,400 should why should we trust in the same institutions that have 729 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,100 failed us at the time when they were most necessary? 730 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,000 Let's take a short break and talk about Ledger makers of The 731 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,600 Ledger. Nano Hardware wallet. 732 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,600 Now, you may have seen this little thing before. 733 00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:20,000 This is a USB smart card that contains a secure environment 734 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,100 chip which host your private keys and signs are transactions. 735 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:25,400 So you can plug this thing into any computer. 736 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,600 Even if it's infected with malware, your Bitcoins will 737 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,800 remain safe Ledger provides. A beautiful and easy to use 738 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,400 Chrome app wall, which is secured by second Factor, 739 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,700 authentication through their companion app for IOS and 740 00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:41,300 Android if you lose your device, that's Problem, your coins are 741 00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,900 protected by pin and the second factor and regenerating your 742 00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:48,500 wallet is really easy with the HD backup seed that you can 743 00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:51,000 store offline. We all know about the importance 744 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,600 of securing your Bitcoins, but with a lot of solutions, it's 745 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,500 just a hassle and people delay it. 746 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,500 And that's how we've ended up with almost 1 million Bitcoins 747 00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,300 stolen, but with Legend, Anna, it's so easy. 748 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,600 That there is no excuse. So don't delay acting now and 749 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,900 making sure you have a secure set up for you Bitcoins to get 750 00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:09,800 started. We have a special offer for you. 751 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,400 You go to The Ledger wallet.com and use the offer code, EB, 09 752 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,200 to get ten percent off. Your order that offer is valid 753 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,900 until September 30th 2015. They also just lowered their 754 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,800 shipping rate and to do s it now costs less than $5. 755 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,500 The legend a no smart card security for your Bitcoins. 756 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,000 Give it a try. We would like to thank Ledger 757 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,800 but they're supportive represent a Bitcoin. 758 00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:38,300 Let's talk a little bit about sort of that the state of 759 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:41,400 Bitcoin and where we are at. So you know, as as everybody 760 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,200 knows the become price has been dropping a lot and I'm curious. 761 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,600 What's your view there to what extent has that affected the 762 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,100 startup activity and the ability to fundraise for companies in 763 00:44:57,100 --> 00:44:59,800 Silicon Valley and in the United States? 764 00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:06,000 I don't think it's a fact that it at all and I think it's 765 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,900 important to realize that most of the companies that are 766 00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:11,900 fundraising in this space. First of all in 2014 or at least 767 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:16,800 in the last 12 months just over 500 startups raised just more 768 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,200 than 500 million dollars. Half a billion dollars which is 769 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,200 the fastest rate of investment since the internet in 1995, in 770 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,300 the tech sector. In a specific industry, it is an 771 00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:31,100 astonishing result, a very promising. 772 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:35,700 Alt and all of that money that has just entered into this 773 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:40,200 space, has resulted, and is resulting, in hiring and 774 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,200 training thousands of developers. 775 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,400 And none of that investment has actually produced Innovation 776 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,500 yet. So it's beginning to now. 777 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,800 And in fact, what we're going to see is the results of that wave 778 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,100 of Investments are going to hit about the here or two in the 779 00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,500 future which is really interesting because we saw some 780 00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:01,100 incredible technology deployed in 2014. 781 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,300 Yeah, but that was really the result of technology written and 782 00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:06,800 tested first in 2012 long before. 783 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,800 Silicon Valley started investing in this space, Silicon Valley 784 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,400 and the mostly u.s. Centric Venture. 785 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,300 Capital space is investing in Bitcoin companies, in u.s. 786 00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:22,800 dollars, not in Bitcoin, they're not using the investment funds 787 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,000 to buy Bitcoin, but they might be buying a bit of Bitcoin in 788 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,700 order to run some forms of or some parts of their operations. 789 00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:34,500 But for the most part, That money stayed and US Dollars 790 00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,300 which means that the startups that were funded with that 791 00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:41,200 money, we're not really affected very heavily by the drop in 792 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,300 price and the investment hasn't slowed down and if anything gets 793 00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:48,200 accelerated we're getting use everyday. 794 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,600 We just we just found out about a company that would raise a 795 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,500 hundred plus million dollars two days ago and we're still not 796 00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:57,300 sure what they do. But yeah, they're still not sure 797 00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:00,100 what they do and that's only the stuff you see on the surface. 798 00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:02,500 You know. They these are the Oz, VC funds. 799 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,500 You've got to consider all of the private Investments and, and 800 00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:09,200 Angel Investments and investments in buy Bitcoin 801 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,600 angels and all of the other activity. 802 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,800 That's like bootstrap will start ups running off credit cards. 803 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:18,900 Which in fact, most of the interesting startups and Bitcoin 804 00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:22,500 are there, they're not like giants invested startups there. 805 00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:26,600 Their collection of two or three founders with technical skills, 806 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:27,900 building? Really interesting will 807 00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:30,300 projects. Now, do you think that, perhaps, 808 00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,300 they're there? There's going to be a delayed 809 00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:34,300 effect since the price has gone down. 810 00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:35,600 And, you know, investment rounds. 811 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:41,500 Do take long time to get in place that perhaps in 2015, at 812 00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:45,300 least in Silicon Valley will see less investment or that pick up. 813 00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:47,200 I got no. Not at all. 814 00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:49,900 I think I think the the investment is accelerating 815 00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,100 because more and more people especially in Silicon Valley are 816 00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:55,800 seeing this for what it is. They're realizing this is not a 817 00:47:55,808 --> 00:47:58,900 joke, there is they see the enormous amount of talent that 818 00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:00,600 is being sucked into this industry. 819 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,900 They understand the potential it has you know this is a force 820 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:07,200 that can achieve disintermediation. 821 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,900 It can replace intermediate layers with technology and just 822 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,400 like the internet replaced. Several large intermediate 823 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,700 layers with direct access to Consumers, but the difference is 824 00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:21,900 that the intermediaries in the financial industry are 825 00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:28,300 multi-billion dollar, Industries themselves and so Silicon Valley 826 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:32,700 understands that this is the probably the first time That 827 00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:37,600 that the software industry has been able to take on the banking 828 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,300 industry and introduce competition and change and 829 00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:43,200 disruption without having to ask for permission and that's why 830 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,600 they can do it. And that represents a very big 831 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,000 prize at the end of the road because disrupting the financial 832 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,800 industry means. Removing a lot of overhead, a 833 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,800 lot of fat and streamlining things, which will mean great 834 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,500 results for those who achieve it. 835 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,000 So, So I think we're going to continue to see an acceleration 836 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,900 in the investment in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in the startups 837 00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,700 in the space. Quite honestly, I think the real 838 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:16,000 issue here is that the price of Bitcoin? 839 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,500 The exchange rate of Bitcoin provides for a very poor price 840 00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:23,800 Discovery mechanism for the industry. 841 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,100 It's not a price Discovery mechanism for the industry, it's 842 00:49:27,100 --> 00:49:31,000 the equilibrium point which the outflow of money from bit. 843 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,000 Coin in the form of mining Revenue to pay for electricity 844 00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:40,400 matches or fall short or overcomes, the number of new 845 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,500 Adoption. Like at the moment in order for 846 00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:47,300 the price to stay stable, we have to have 3,600 Bitcoin in 847 00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:49,900 new Adoption come in every single day. 848 00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:54,400 That's a big flow of money and we're going to see I think a 849 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,400 significant change when the reward halves in 2016 as that's 850 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,500 going to naturally. Actually push the price a lot 851 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:06,200 higher because the inflow of investments will will be greater 852 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,000 than the outflow of mining Revenue. 853 00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:12,100 But, you know, this is this is really not a price Discovery 854 00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:14,000 mechanism. I think it's a mistake to look 855 00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:16,400 at and I certainly did. Make that mistake. 856 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,800 In the beginning, I felt the Bitcoin price represented kind 857 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,500 of an index fund for the industry, you know, like like a 858 00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:26,700 like an investment fund but it isn't. 859 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,700 And the reason it isn't is because it's affected by things 860 00:50:30,700 --> 00:50:34,800 that A lot more to do with with currency Flows In and Out of the 861 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,400 economy than it does with the fundamental strengths of the 862 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,300 industry itself of the technology or its development. 863 00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:44,000 And because it's a tiny liquidity pool it gets very 864 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,600 seriously moved around when anybody makes a big move in this 865 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,100 industry. And so largely, I think it's 866 00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:54,800 disconnected from the fundamentals and that means that 867 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,100 it's great for speculators most of the movement. 868 00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:01,000 You see is one guy saying, oh, the chart looks like to quote 869 00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:04,700 The Dilbert cartoon, the chart looks like a rabbit sitting on a 870 00:51:04,707 --> 00:51:08,400 clown, Now's the Time to buy. And then the other guy says, so 871 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,700 now, it's looking like the clown sitting on the wrap it. 872 00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:13,900 So now we're going to sell and that kind of technical analysis 873 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,800 in a tiny liquidity, pool is a circle jerk if I can use that 874 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,400 expression on radio. Yeah, essentially it's a 875 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,700 feedback loop where where the activities of one Trader are 876 00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,600 affecting the perspective and sentiment of the others. 877 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:32,400 And there's a bit of fundamental Holes in there but not enough to 878 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,900 make a difference. So I don't really pay attention 879 00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:37,700 to that. I protect myself from 880 00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:40,200 volatility. If I if I have expenses 881 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,600 denominated in dollars I'll sell Bitcoin quickly to pay my bills 882 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:50,100 and if I if I received in Bitcoin or vice versa and so I 883 00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:53,400 won't stay in one currency for too long and I won't be exposed 884 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,700 to Too Much exchange rate volatility and you know, I use 885 00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:02,000 it primarily as a means of exchange and It works fine for 886 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,700 me and so I'm able to ignore the price for the most part. 887 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:12,000 Now, the problem is, I'm human and all of our participants in 888 00:52:12,008 --> 00:52:15,100 this game are human, we have emotions and these emotions are 889 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:18,000 very easily affected by the price of Bitcoin. 890 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,900 So, you know, I'll be having a fantastic day and then I'll see 891 00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:25,100 the price of Bitcoin tank and I like brown efface. 892 00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:28,200 And then, the next day Bitcoins, it like this week Bitcoins, like 893 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:34,700 sha top from, I don't know 272. Almost 300 and and I like I 894 00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:39,000 don't care about the price of Bitcoin but I have a big smile 895 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,200 on my face. I don't know why she probably 896 00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:46,800 it's hard not to be emotionally affected by it but we'll see. 897 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,100 It's it. I think it's interesting just 898 00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:55,400 how different situation is and the sentiment that the startup 899 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,400 scene and investment team in the u.s. from like in Germany and 900 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,300 Berlin or in France. Or in other European countries. 901 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:10,300 I think it's I guess here that sort of wave of people becoming 902 00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:13,500 interested in Bitcoin saying all this is the future that never 903 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,900 never really started. Or maybe there was like the very 904 00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:21,700 beginnings of it and when you don't have like all your 905 00:53:21,700 --> 00:53:24,700 colleagues talking about it, you know, like nobody's doing it. 906 00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:28,300 I mean, there's such a herd Instinct with people there and 907 00:53:28,300 --> 00:53:30,900 then the price I think does pose a problem. 908 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,200 Because for people who aren't so in tune debate, don't understand 909 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,800 that technology at it makes it so much harder to sell them at. 910 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,000 This is a lot of potential when you see like a, but then if 911 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,700 that's really the case, why does the Bitcoin price keep going 912 00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:48,000 down? Like so I think it from people, 913 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,600 you know, I know here who have been trying to erase investment 914 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,900 from investors and they've they've been having a difficult 915 00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:00,600 time and the price of Lee has exacerbated a bit. 916 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,000 So, So, yeah, Barry silbert had the best answer. 917 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,400 I think it was Barry who was asked, you know, why is the 918 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,500 price of Bitcoin going down? And when do you think it's going 919 00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:12,500 to start going up again? And his answer was, it's going 920 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:15,500 down because there are more sellers than buyers will go off 921 00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:19,700 again when there are more buyers and sellers that's it. 922 00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:22,400 It's a simple as that and who are the sellers right now? 923 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,300 Miners paying for electricity bills. 924 00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:27,500 Merchants converting from Bitcoin back into Fiat as 925 00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:30,500 quickly as they can because they're not using it as a store 926 00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:33,600 of value. And the buyers are people 927 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,600 adopting Bitcoin, not just through use it but also to store 928 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,900 value in it for the long term. And and so is that the industry 929 00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:45,200 not really, it's not the industry, it's just one aspect 930 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,200 of economic activity. So in your opinion, what needs 931 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,500 to happen for that Trend to for the earth to be more buyers and 932 00:54:51,500 --> 00:54:55,200 sellers time? And it really is just a matter 933 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,100 of time. I think the overall adoption 934 00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:00,900 Trends in terms of brand awareness. 935 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,500 In terms of more people having heard of Bitcoin, trying 936 00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:06,900 Bitcoin, more people showing up with meetups the Grassroots 937 00:55:06,900 --> 00:55:09,100 Community, the number of companies, the number of 938 00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:13,600 developers, the software being built, better software Slicker 939 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,400 software easier, experience more secure wallets, all of those 940 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,100 Trends are moving in the right direction. 941 00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:24,100 And so over time, it just builds momentum and builds momentum and 942 00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:26,700 maybe at some point we're going to have a critical event, a 943 00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:29,000 spark event. That's going to turn it hockey. 944 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,100 Stick like and we're going to see very very Rapid exponential 945 00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,600 growth. But until then it's just, you 946 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,600 know, gradual, hard slog, and I know worried about that, that 947 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,400 doesn't frighten me. I've seen this before, I first, 948 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,000 I first started dabbling with the internet really 949 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:49,800 professionally around 1989 1990. And then I watched for the next 950 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,500 seven or eight years and, you know, in my mind like, this was 951 00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:57,000 mind-blowing stuff that it was obvious, and it was going to be 952 00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,200 huge. And then the market just took 953 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,200 seven to eight years to start. Art building up momentum and 954 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,900 then it crashed in 2001. He stood up the internet to 955 00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:07,500 over, let's move on to something else. 956 00:56:09,100 --> 00:56:11,200 So I'm not scared. I mean I did this Market 957 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,700 sentiment happens. That the real question is, is 958 00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:16,600 there something there is Bitcoin real? 959 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,800 Is there a technological invention here? 960 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,100 That is disruptive. That is effective that solves 961 00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:25,900 problems. That does something nothing else 962 00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:28,600 can do that. Is truly remarkable. 963 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:35,800 And the answer is yes and I'm I have no doubt in my mind that it 964 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,500 is, therefore, just a matter of time before this technology and 965 00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,400 it may end up not being called Bitcoin and may end up using the 966 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,600 different currency. But in fact, but I actually 967 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,900 think it is going to be Bitcoin and I think it's gradually going 968 00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:54,200 to gain a bigger and bigger foothold and it will eventually 969 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,800 become the de facto currency of the internet. 970 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,700 The de facto Global transnational Exchange Currency 971 00:57:01,700 --> 00:57:12,200 for digital companies. So we're going to come back to 972 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,400 this point. The point of this sort of 973 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,300 long-term outlook for Bitcoin because this is something that 974 00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:21,600 has been a topic again. And again, on our podcast, it's 975 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,700 something, we've been thinking a lot about the sort of long-term 976 00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:28,500 potential issues that challenges are in the way. 977 00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:33,500 But maybe, before we dive into that, we for those who are 978 00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:35,800 interested in getting involved in Bitcoin, Maybe, You broke a 979 00:57:35,808 --> 00:57:39,800 developers or maybe they have other skills of expertise. 980 00:57:40,900 --> 00:57:43,800 What are they big opportunities that you see in the space 981 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,500 especially those that are kind of neglected, and that nobody is 982 00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:53,900 doing free start-up ideas? Yeah, I don't think fruit. 983 00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:57,800 Yeah. I think it's always wrong to 984 00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,400 start a start-up. Bye-bye, starting with what is 985 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:03,600 the idea that's going to be successful? 986 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,900 I think the most important thing you can do in any startup is 987 00:58:08,900 --> 00:58:13,100 look, look hard at what drives you as an individual, your 988 00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:15,000 personality, what are your core principles? 989 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,400 What are the things that excite you and then try to find that 990 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,100 one thing that that drives you so hard. 991 00:58:22,100 --> 00:58:24,500 You can't put it down. You can't sleep at night, you 992 00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:27,400 can't stop thinking about it. Drives your personality. 993 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,400 It's important to you. It's important to the very core 994 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,500 principles of who you are and do Bitcoin in that, because nothing 995 00:58:36,500 --> 00:58:42,200 can make up for the enthusiasm, and focus and execution drive 996 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,800 over founder, or founding team the really, really passionately 997 00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,400 Drive behind an idea and, you know, if you just go, okay, was 998 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:52,900 the thing. I think will sell the most 999 00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:56,100 you're going to fail. Now in terms. 1000 00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:58,800 Of Bitcoin and the future. Honestly, I think there is 1001 00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:01,100 there's a lot of really Visionary stuff going on and 1002 00:59:01,100 --> 00:59:04,100 we've seen this whole Bitcoin 2.0 do space etcetera but I 1003 00:59:04,100 --> 00:59:08,900 think for the next two years, the vast majority of work we 1004 00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:16,100 have to do is in 30-40 core. Infrastructure systems exchanges 1005 00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:22,000 wallets ATMs and the surrounding applications making Bitcoin 1006 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,900 easier to get easier to use easier to secure. 1007 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,300 And spreading that reach to more people and and I would say, you 1008 00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:34,000 know, that's very similar to your, not to the internet, you 1009 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,100 didn't get the web out of nothing. 1010 00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:38,300 You got the web when the time was, right? 1011 00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:44,500 Because isps had been deployed on the back of email all across 1012 00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:48,300 the world. And so every country had begun 1013 00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:53,400 to deploy is be infrastructure and get out modems and personal 1014 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,700 computers and get people connected at least basically 1015 00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:57,400 with it. Email and that created the 1016 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,600 necessary. Adoption density to be able to 1017 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,800 deploy something like the web and lead. 1018 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,800 The next range of killer applications. 1019 01:00:06,100 --> 01:00:08,500 Bitcoin is a payment mechanism is already here. 1020 01:00:08,700 --> 01:00:10,700 We've got the infrastructure. We need to deploy a lot of 1021 01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:14,400 exchanges, a lot of ATMs and a lot better wallets which is 1022 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,900 already happening. But you know, I assume that 1023 01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:19,900 there there will be two or three exchanges in every country in 1024 01:00:19,908 --> 01:00:24,000 the world and we're going to also see decentralized exchange, 1025 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,000 the multi currency exchanges and things like that. 1026 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:31,900 Some were also going to see more and better wallets and that 1027 01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:36,300 basic infrastructure as boring as it seems is what's required 1028 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,400 in order to get to the point where we can then. 1029 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:45,500 Push pull out, more killer apps on top of this platform, the 1030 01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:50,600 space is sort of evolved over time from being a, I mean, 1031 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,400 Bitcoin being in bed ssion of cypherpunks, and crypto 1032 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,900 anarchists and a Out of that ideology is still there. 1033 01:00:57,900 --> 01:01:02,000 But as we move forward, you know, a lot more business coming 1034 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,200 into this space and we definitely see that at 1035 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,500 conferences. There's sort of a dichotomy of 1036 01:01:06,500 --> 01:01:11,900 like, the people that are there with some of the ideological 1037 01:01:11,900 --> 01:01:15,500 foothold and others that are just too to make make products 1038 01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:17,900 and make money. You think that there's an 1039 01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:20,700 evolution of the space towards is more like Bitcoin equal. 1040 01:01:20,900 --> 01:01:22,700 Sorry business. Friendly products. 1041 01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,600 How do you see that play out in the future? 1042 01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:28,300 Yeah, of There is, I mean that this is inevitable in the 1043 01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:32,200 maturity of any technology. Most technology start out with a 1044 01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:37,600 very focused, set of principles, or engineering objectives, or 1045 01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,100 architectural goals. And then as they hit mainstream, 1046 01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:46,000 they gradually morphed to adopt the principals of desires of 1047 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,400 mainstream and they get diluted. This is normal, this is what 1048 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,900 happens in the maturity curve of any technology. 1049 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:58,900 So if I have the suits, you know, Playing on the blockchain 1050 01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:02,700 architecture, we're winning. We just we just took a 1051 01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:07,000 cypherpunk project and I mean not me personally but you know 1052 01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,300 this community took a cypherpunk project insert it as a trojan 1053 01:02:10,300 --> 01:02:15,100 horse in the Global Financial Services industry and it got so 1054 01:02:15,100 --> 01:02:20,000 good and so attractive that now it's peeling off suits from the 1055 01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,600 financial services industry who want to start playing on our 1056 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,800 turf with our decentralized protocols now Are they going to 1057 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,900 change Bitcoin and make it more centralized? 1058 01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:31,500 Sure they are, but they never going to make it a centralized 1059 01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:37,300 as Visa or Mastercard or Swift or the current banking system, 1060 01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,300 they're playing on our turf and that is a huge Victory and it 1061 01:02:42,300 --> 01:02:45,400 will lead to massive decentralization and financial 1062 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,700 services just like you know on the internet to eventually the 1063 01:02:48,700 --> 01:02:51,300 phone company's got into its and you have a whole bunch of phone 1064 01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:53,400 company, Executives, and eventually they end up 1065 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,900 centralizing things and threatening that neutrality. 1066 01:02:56,100 --> 01:03:01,000 Yeah, but they're still playing on the internet and that that 1067 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,200 decimated, the clothes Monopoly control of the of the 1068 01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:08,300 long-distance phone companies and and nationalized networks. 1069 01:03:08,300 --> 01:03:11,100 And all of that crap that came before and I remember that and 1070 01:03:11,100 --> 01:03:14,800 it was a mess and we got them playing on the internet. 1071 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,900 And guess what? Has centralizes the internet 1072 01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,400 became as net neutrality hostile? 1073 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,400 Is it became as travail this became, it gave birth to 1074 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:27,400 bitcoin. Because we won as a time and now 1075 01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,500 we're going to do it again. So, you know, I'm not worried 1076 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,700 and and in fact, if we see the principles, they looted too 1077 01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:38,200 much, you know, already there are a whole bunch of cypherpunks 1078 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:42,900 moving on to do them next most disruptive protocol on the back 1079 01:03:42,900 --> 01:03:46,100 of Bitcoin or as a trojan horse with in Bitcoin again and again 1080 01:03:46,100 --> 01:03:49,400 and again so we continue reintroducing disruption. 1081 01:03:49,900 --> 01:03:53,700 That is the nature of change and you can you can only co-opt so 1082 01:03:54,300 --> 01:03:57,700 It's the Greek approach to Barbarian invasion. 1083 01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,700 You know, you open the doors, you introduce them to the idea 1084 01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:05,700 of twelve gods and orgies, and you wait two decades and their 1085 01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:09,300 Greeks and to The Barbarians invaded you and your culture 1086 01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:11,900 invades them. What are your thoughts on 1087 01:04:11,900 --> 01:04:15,300 curious about some of these new sort of semi decentralized 1088 01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:18,600 solutions that we see in touring the space like hyper Ledger like 1089 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,500 areas Industries and others that are trying to take the 1090 01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,200 technological idea of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency and general, 1091 01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:30,500 and bring it to some sort of a semi decentralized model that 1092 01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:34,100 doesn't really carry all the ideas of the Creator. 1093 01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:36,000 That's great. I think there's plenty of 1094 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:37,700 competition. What it will do is it will train 1095 01:04:37,700 --> 01:04:41,800 more and more people than these asme decentralized ideas is 1096 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,400 still semi decentralised and it rains. 1097 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,900 People who are steeped in a lifetime of thinking and 1098 01:04:46,900 --> 01:04:50,600 centralized fashion to see how semi decentralized work, and 1099 01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,100 what that does is it gives them a taste, you know? 1100 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,400 So that's a bit like asking, you know, did CompuServe help the 1101 01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,200 internet or not sure it did introduce a lot of people to 1102 01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,200 CompuServe email and they saw CompuServe. 1103 01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:04,600 Email said this is kind of cool but I'd like the real thing. 1104 01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,100 Can I have internet email please and then CompuServe was over and 1105 01:05:09,100 --> 01:05:11,300 the internet picked up all of the slack. 1106 01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:17,400 You can simulate and creates decentralized semi decentralized 1107 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,500 things, but the point is the pace of innovation the 1108 01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:22,800 disruption of the destructive potential. 1109 01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,400 The Really interesting applications. 1110 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,200 They come from the decentralized architecture. 1111 01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:32,100 And so if you send me the a centralized your only semi 1112 01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:36,700 competing and we will we can we can beat that, it's not a 1113 01:05:36,700 --> 01:05:40,100 problem at all. Yeah, I mean I think that's has 1114 01:05:40,100 --> 01:05:44,100 also been my point of view and it's funny because we actually 1115 01:05:44,100 --> 01:05:48,100 use Trojan horse before when we talked at the topic and discuss 1116 01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:49,400 the topic. Because, you know, when you 1117 01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:54,300 start having giving easy access to people like to hold, Money 1118 01:05:54,500 --> 01:05:57,500 and integrated in a banking on cetera, of course, the 1119 01:05:57,508 --> 01:06:02,700 transition from there, to a wallet that, for example, you 1120 01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:05,500 know, Alexis, you know, wallet that's hosted on your computer 1121 01:06:05,500 --> 01:06:08,700 where you control a private key. That's a very easy step, right? 1122 01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:13,300 The first step part softening, we're softening the edges were 1123 01:06:13,300 --> 01:06:18,700 basically creating easier on ramps into these Concepts and 1124 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,700 and Technologies. But the whole point about 1125 01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:27,200 decentralization is That it has a cost decentralisation is more 1126 01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:30,100 expensive and more complex but it also has a benefit. 1127 01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:34,600 And the benefit is that it fuels much more rapid Innovation 1128 01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,700 because Innovation can happen at the edges without permission 1129 01:06:37,700 --> 01:06:41,700 from a central stakeholder in a very diffuse and decentralized 1130 01:06:41,700 --> 01:06:44,000 fashion. People can innovate on Niche 1131 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,200 applications that nobody would approve on a centralized Network 1132 01:06:47,300 --> 01:06:51,900 and and that is how you win because it's an endless source 1133 01:06:51,900 --> 01:06:54,900 of surprises. It's a Endless source of new 1134 01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:58,100 innovation and new applications and the semi decentralized 1135 01:06:58,100 --> 01:07:00,100 things can never keep up with that. 1136 01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:04,600 Let's take a short break to talk about V or oh the goal to 1137 01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:07,400 Bitcoin exchange. If you ever try to trade gold 1138 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:09,800 for Fiat, you know how difficult that can be right? 1139 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,800 You have to do a bunch of kyc wire some money, over that takes 1140 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,900 a week, Plus cost, a bunch of Bank fees. 1141 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,800 Then you can only trade large amounts of gold, and what do you 1142 01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,300 want to get the money out? You got to pay even more fees 1143 01:07:21,300 --> 01:07:24,200 and wait for another week. Well, Torah does things 1144 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:25,500 differently. It's so easy. 1145 01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:29,200 And so quick to start trading gold, and Bitcoin and motor that 1146 01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,100 you need to give this a try. Even if Never traded gold before 1147 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,000 the Bitcoin Network makes deposits lightning fast. 1148 01:07:36,100 --> 01:07:39,000 And you can start creating after just six confirmations. 1149 01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:42,600 Deposits and withdrawals are totally free and the trading 1150 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,700 fees go as low as zero. Point two percent, you can start 1151 01:07:45,700 --> 01:07:50,600 creating gold as low as 1 mg and because of the world-class 1152 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,800 security transparency of mulch or you can rest assured that 1153 01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,600 your funds are safe and because you're trading Commodities, you 1154 01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,500 don't even have to provide them any KY, C. 1155 01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,500 It's for deposits up to five thousand dollars worth of 1156 01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:09,200 Bitcoins per day V or combines the best aspects of the oldest 1157 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,600 form of money gold with that, of the world's newest, and most 1158 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:16,399 revolutionary currency Bitcoin. So go to Vault, tour.com and 1159 01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:19,399 start trading gold today, and we'd like to thank baltoro for 1160 01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,100 the support of epicenter Bitcoin. 1161 01:08:23,100 --> 01:08:27,200 So in the long run, you know it seems is Bitcoin has a lot of 1162 01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,800 advantages right now. And if you think of it as sort 1163 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,600 of a long run, their currency, write them in the air, all the 1164 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:37,800 old coins, they're basically irrelevant, you could say and 1165 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,399 none of them have gotten any kind of adoption. 1166 01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:46,500 That being said, we have been talking about, especially the 1167 01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:51,399 issues with proof of work and whether it can stay secure in a 1168 01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:53,899 Long run or what are your thoughts on that issue? 1169 01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:01,600 I think it's it's important to know to realize that Bitcoin is 1170 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,200 a dynamic system. In some parts of it can involve 1171 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,800 and some parts of it can't evolve so easily. 1172 01:09:07,300 --> 01:09:12,500 But I think there's a lot of smart people working on, solving 1173 01:09:12,500 --> 01:09:17,800 skill, ability, issues and making making Bitcoin work 1174 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:21,899 better now. 10 years from now we'll probably have Then called 1175 01:09:21,899 --> 01:09:26,200 Bitcoin and it will probably resemble what we have today in 1176 01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,500 some of the fundamentals. But, but not in the 1177 01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:33,500 implementation, it will be quite radically different. 1178 01:09:33,500 --> 01:09:38,100 And so, you know, one of the analogies that I use often is 1179 01:09:38,100 --> 01:09:42,200 that when I started in computer science and in 1990, we had 1180 01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,700 ethernet. And every year, someone would 1181 01:09:44,700 --> 01:09:47,700 write an article about how ethernet can possibly get faster 1182 01:09:47,700 --> 01:09:49,899 and how it's going to reach the limits of physics. 1183 01:09:49,899 --> 01:09:52,600 Etc, etc. And every year, Here they were 1184 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,400 wrong. And now you know 25 years later 1185 01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:00,100 we still have ethernet. But how similar is the ethernet 1186 01:10:00,100 --> 01:10:06,200 of today with the coax cable protocol, we had in 1990, it 1187 01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,600 shares some basic similarities. It has some fundamental 1188 01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:14,400 Collision detection and framerates characteristics that 1189 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,800 are similar, but it's like a car where only the steering wheel is 1190 01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:19,700 from the original. And you replaced every other 1191 01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:21,300 part, is this still the same car. 1192 01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,100 No, it's not and yet it is and you still call at ethernet. 1193 01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:31,000 So we will have a Bitcoin that may have received many upgrades 1194 01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,200 under the hood and the brand continues in the core 1195 01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:36,000 principles. Continue in the decentralized 1196 01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,800 architecture continues Bitcoin is I think very difficult to 1197 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:44,000 unseat from that perspective but I think it's also important to 1198 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:48,000 realize that the idea that Bitcoin is competing against 1199 01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:53,600 other currencies, in a zero-sum exclusionary Game is a context 1200 01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,200 of thinking that comes from National currencies with 1201 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:59,000 national monopolies. The idea that they can only be 1202 01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,800 194 currencies one per country and those who monopolies in 1203 01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,300 facts are thinking in the cryptocurrency space, Bitcoin 1204 01:11:06,300 --> 01:11:09,700 can coexist with tens of thousands of currencies and many 1205 01:11:09,700 --> 01:11:12,400 of them can become equally valuable and find Niche 1206 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,200 applications. This is now fully open ecosystem 1207 01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:20,400 without barriers to Evolution and we will see these currencies 1208 01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,400 evolved and Occupy, the niche that they are most fit to occupy 1209 01:11:25,100 --> 01:11:30,400 and coexist in layers and synergistic relationships and 1210 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:34,400 parasitic relationships. And entire ecosystems of related 1211 01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:39,100 currencies, we are now living in a poly currency pluralistic 1212 01:11:39,100 --> 01:11:44,200 society after 2008, and the idea of Monopoly currencies is dead. 1213 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,400 So it's not Bitcoin against the world. 1214 01:11:48,300 --> 01:11:51,400 Bitcoin will find its Niche. It will probably be a very 1215 01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,000 powerful. Powerful dish but it's going to 1216 01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,300 coexist with thousands of other currencies. 1217 01:11:58,100 --> 01:12:01,100 Yeah. I mean this is somewhat where my 1218 01:12:01,100 --> 01:12:05,600 own thinking on this issue is also often I think the to what 1219 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,600 extent are, you know, becoming successful dramatically depend 1220 01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:14,900 on the ability of the community to evolve to protocol until a 1221 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:16,700 question. Also, some of the sort of for 1222 01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:20,300 not fundamental design choices to do, she made? 1223 01:12:20,300 --> 01:12:21,400 Sure I was there. I was in Spain. 1224 01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:26,300 Chain two weeks, just shortly. And I was reading the book of 1225 01:12:26,300 --> 01:12:29,500 Satoshi and it was actually the first time that I was reading 1226 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,900 some satoshi's writing, except for the white paper. 1227 01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,200 And and I think one of the things that just sort of struck 1228 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:40,800 me, and it's kind of obvious, but we tend to forget about it. 1229 01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:43,400 It's just how difficult this job was. 1230 01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:50,400 Like, what a Monumental task that was and how much he had to 1231 01:12:50,900 --> 01:12:54,000 just Choices, right? Because like you don't know how 1232 01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,700 things are gonna turn out and you don't have the time or 1233 01:12:57,700 --> 01:13:01,600 capacity or skills or knowledge to try to model where things 1234 01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,500 will be in that there will be a six and Mining pools and all 1235 01:13:04,500 --> 01:13:06,200 those other things, 10 years that line. 1236 01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:09,500 But then I think those choices will actually be very crucial to 1237 01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:12,600 the extent that you know the network is stable and survived. 1238 01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:17,200 So I think in my my own view this is I think the ability and 1239 01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:21,700 the willingness to kind of think about these things and Take 1240 01:13:21,700 --> 01:13:23,500 action. The proactively, not just when 1241 01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:26,900 something goes wrong, will be key and hopefully hopefully 1242 01:13:26,900 --> 01:13:29,300 become will make that and you're certainly right. 1243 01:13:29,300 --> 01:13:32,700 It had, there is a huge advantage today, in terms of 1244 01:13:32,700 --> 01:13:35,700 network effects, right? It will be very difficult for 1245 01:13:35,700 --> 01:13:41,000 anyone to displace Bitcoin unless Bitcoin runs into some 1246 01:13:41,100 --> 01:13:45,100 really big obstacles, which even that they have to not only be 1247 01:13:45,100 --> 01:13:48,600 big, they have to be insurmountable and unfixable or 1248 01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,400 persistent of a long periods of time, which again is a rare. 1249 01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,600 Raishin, the other thing is to realize, there's a significant 1250 01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:59,400 element of Observer Bias here, you know, it's not as if, you 1251 01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:04,900 know, suppose you made all of the right choices and and you 1252 01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:09,200 know, we can see that. Now the thing is that the reason 1253 01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,800 we can see that is because Bitcoin, succeeded and therefore 1254 01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:16,200 validates, its all of the choices, the Satoshi made, and 1255 01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:21,400 we don't talk about the hundreds of other attempts, at creating 1256 01:14:21,500 --> 01:14:25,000 Dating forms of digital currency from the early Beginnings in the 1257 01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:31,000 mid 70s through the 80s and 90s and all of the other centralized 1258 01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:33,700 on mind mind using different protocols. 1259 01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:36,600 Different decentralized approach has all of the ones that failed, 1260 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,200 we don't talk about. So it appears as if one person 1261 01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,500 came along, made all the right choices and done know, the 1262 01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:46,800 reason we talk about Bitcoin today is because the choices 1263 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,200 that were made ended up proven good. 1264 01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:51,300 Bye. Bye it. 1265 01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:54,600 Bility to support a 10 billion dollar market cap, which is 1266 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,100 supported at some point and attracting the Investments that 1267 01:14:58,100 --> 01:15:01,500 we've seen in the, in the interest of people. 1268 01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:05,200 Now, the great thing is that now it can evolve based on 1269 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:11,200 production Hughes to to best fit, the needs of the people who 1270 01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:13,900 use it. And so it's now it's a live 1271 01:15:13,900 --> 01:15:15,400 system. It's it wasn't necessarily the 1272 01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,500 best thing, but it was the protocol. 1273 01:15:17,500 --> 01:15:20,400 It was good enough and and caught on early enough just like 1274 01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:24,000 TCP IP is not. The best set of protocols, but 1275 01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,300 it was good enough and it evolved fast enough. 1276 01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:30,500 And after that, if it needs, little tweaks here and there, in 1277 01:15:30,500 --> 01:15:34,300 order to expand its use, they make them. 1278 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,800 And and and you know, this is the funny thing is that just as 1279 01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,500 we see a bitch worries for Bitcoin, people are writing 1280 01:15:40,500 --> 01:15:43,700 obituaries for, for the internet and its basic protocols 1281 01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:47,600 throughout the 90s, right? And eventually they stopped only 1282 01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:54,000 because it became obvious that that It was refusing to die and 1283 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,900 and in fact thriving now we write different kinds of 1284 01:15:56,900 --> 01:15:59,600 obituaries now, the internet is here to stay, but the free 1285 01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,300 internet is dead and it will forever be more and more 1286 01:16:02,300 --> 01:16:05,000 centralized. And again I think that's also a 1287 01:16:05,008 --> 01:16:07,500 short sighted and the same thing with Bitcoin. 1288 01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:11,200 Now we're beginning to see, people say, oh yeah, but mining 1289 01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,800 is getting so centralized that eventually it will collapse in 1290 01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:15,100 on itself. I don't think that's true 1291 01:16:15,100 --> 01:16:17,900 either. This is dynamic system and will 1292 01:16:17,900 --> 01:16:19,700 ebb and flow. It will get more centralized 1293 01:16:19,700 --> 01:16:21,300 will get more decentralized people. 1294 01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:27,700 We'll push against that, you know, it's a dynamic system with 1295 01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,100 with influences. And there are a lot of people 1296 01:16:30,100 --> 01:16:33,700 now invested, both literally and metaphorically in the success of 1297 01:16:33,700 --> 01:16:36,400 Bitcoin. So, coming back on these issues, 1298 01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:40,900 like, you know, scalability Etc. I had really had my doubts about 1299 01:16:40,900 --> 01:16:47,200 whether or not the ecosystem has the ability to take a step back 1300 01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,300 and look at the problems. As they are and fix them because 1301 01:16:51,300 --> 01:16:53,100 people who seem to get so emotionally charged. 1302 01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:56,100 And I don't know, I mean, that was definitely there at that 1303 01:16:56,100 --> 01:16:58,200 time, it was too young to know what was going on. 1304 01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,700 But with the internet, I don't think people would get in. 1305 01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:04,300 So, emotionally rattled up about choices that were made in the 1306 01:17:04,308 --> 01:17:06,900 design of TCP IP, for instance. Oh yeah. 1307 01:17:06,900 --> 01:17:09,000 They were, they were yeah. Oh, yeah. 1308 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:10,500 They were. I mean, did they have? 1309 01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:15,400 I don't think they had such an emotional, and they were 1310 01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:19,000 t-shirts to to make fun of the synchronous transport. 1311 01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:23,900 Remote ATM protocol and it's 53. Byte payload, they made went to 1312 01:17:23,900 --> 01:17:27,500 conferences and screamed at each other about centralization and 1313 01:17:27,500 --> 01:17:31,600 selling out to the suits and all of that very very much the same. 1314 01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:35,700 And there were a few important organizations within that frame, 1315 01:17:36,100 --> 01:17:40,200 that managed to just strike the right balance and make good 1316 01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,800 engineering decisions. And stare stare, the main 1317 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,500 protocols in the way they needed to be to get here. 1318 01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:50,300 You know, a lot of this happened because of Organizations, like 1319 01:17:50,300 --> 01:17:54,500 the ietf and I can, and various other standards bodies and w3c, 1320 01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:58,800 the managed to strike water and retrospect some good balances. 1321 01:17:59,900 --> 01:18:03,100 We're seeing that in Bitcoin to, you know, I see a very, very 1322 01:18:03,100 --> 01:18:07,600 healthy conversation on the core developer mailing lists and 1323 01:18:07,700 --> 01:18:10,700 among the community of Engineers and architects who are involved 1324 01:18:10,700 --> 01:18:14,500 in Bitcoin about what needs to be fixed and how it can be 1325 01:18:14,500 --> 01:18:16,000 fixed. And there are lots of competing 1326 01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,000 proposals and they all receive healthy. 1327 01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:23,000 Is of skepticism and nothing is a sacred cow. 1328 01:18:23,100 --> 01:18:25,300 I think there are some things, obviously in Bitcoin the will 1329 01:18:25,300 --> 01:18:27,500 not change. You know, the 21 million coin, 1330 01:18:27,500 --> 01:18:30,100 cap will not change. No one will ever agree to that 1331 01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:34,900 but you know, pretty much everything else is is up for a 1332 01:18:34,900 --> 01:18:37,700 redesigned as necessary. If it becomes a problem, it will 1333 01:18:37,700 --> 01:18:40,800 get replaced and the things that are becoming bottlenecks 1334 01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,600 scalability issues. Etcetera are vigorously 1335 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:45,500 discovered, a very healthy debate. 1336 01:18:45,700 --> 01:18:49,800 So I'm very optimistic that these things will We'll continue 1337 01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:52,800 to evolve in a positive way. That's really good to hear them. 1338 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,400 Yeah, I mean I think, I think the challenge did this 1339 01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,700 particular challenge in the Bitcoin example know, is that 1340 01:18:59,700 --> 01:19:03,200 you have money involved, they're different people have large 1341 01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,600 Financial stakes and you somehow need to Old, get them aligned, 1342 01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,900 which can be a challenge depending on the issue. 1343 01:19:09,900 --> 01:19:15,300 Of course, in some cases, it's not right, like an externality, 1344 01:19:15,300 --> 01:19:17,900 its internal to the system which is really interesting because 1345 01:19:17,900 --> 01:19:20,400 what it means is that if you The wrong choice, your money is 1346 01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:25,100 worth less right de facto. So that also creates a very 1347 01:19:25,100 --> 01:19:30,700 protective environment where because people are invested more 1348 01:19:30,700 --> 01:19:36,400 than just ideologically, then that that kicks in markets, 1349 01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:40,400 incentive structures for good decision-making. 1350 01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:45,600 And and, you know, in fact what we saw in the past, for example, 1351 01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:49,200 the internet, it was a pure, it was a pure battle between an 1352 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,300 engineer's and Suits. If you like some who had just 1353 01:19:52,300 --> 01:19:54,700 principled positions on engineering and some who just 1354 01:19:54,700 --> 01:19:58,100 wanted to make more money on it with Bitcoin is kind of a mixed 1355 01:19:58,100 --> 01:20:03,300 mixed game because, you know, the engineers are into money and 1356 01:20:03,300 --> 01:20:05,700 and the money people have to do a bit of engineering to. 1357 01:20:05,700 --> 01:20:08,400 So it's it's engineered money. It's a new thing. 1358 01:20:08,500 --> 01:20:10,500 What? We'll see how it plays out, but 1359 01:20:10,500 --> 01:20:14,800 it's going to be interesting. Again, that's part of the really 1360 01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:22,800 exciting thing about this is that Have front row seats in the 1361 01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:26,700 development of a historic technology that is doing things 1362 01:20:26,700 --> 01:20:28,000 that have never been done before. 1363 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:33,900 And every day that goes by, I just feel amazed at at having 1364 01:20:33,900 --> 01:20:39,900 this opportunity to be Frontline observer in and sometimes 1365 01:20:39,900 --> 01:20:45,300 influencer in in what is turning out to be, perhaps historic 1366 01:20:45,300 --> 01:20:50,800 generational worldwide impactful, Eruptive change in 1367 01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:54,900 technology one that will create history and and that is an 1368 01:20:54,900 --> 01:20:57,700 amazing feeling. I definitely agree with that. 1369 01:20:57,700 --> 01:21:00,800 I think Brian probably even more so than I, because he works out 1370 01:21:00,808 --> 01:21:03,000 of the etherium office. I'll be, I was in Berlin last 1371 01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:06,900 week and I walked in on Nutella Butera and and Gavin wood 1372 01:21:07,700 --> 01:21:11,500 working in there in the office. And I, I just somehow felt like, 1373 01:21:11,500 --> 01:21:14,700 I don't know, being in the, in the Apple offices, in the early 1374 01:21:14,700 --> 01:21:17,700 80s or something like that. I mean like it's just it just 1375 01:21:17,700 --> 01:21:21,600 seemed like 15 years from now I would look back on this on these 1376 01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,400 times and really look back on them as sort of being at the 1377 01:21:25,700 --> 01:21:27,400 like you say, you know, being at the beginning of something 1378 01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,000 you're just really huge. I think we all feel that I know 1379 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,800 what you think. Brian, I couldn't agree more and 1380 01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,100 I also think this is that the perfect the perfect note on 1381 01:21:36,100 --> 01:21:39,000 which to end the episode. Now I think we are very 1382 01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:42,700 privileged to be part of this part of this Revolution and, you 1383 01:21:42,708 --> 01:21:48,300 know, none of us doubt that this is going to be such a big impact 1384 01:21:48,300 --> 01:21:51,000 on on. Things and how how things are 1385 01:21:51,008 --> 01:21:53,500 done and how we live our lives. And I think we're going to have 1386 01:21:53,500 --> 01:21:57,400 a tremendously positive impact and it's just super exciting to 1387 01:21:57,600 --> 01:21:59,100 be part of that. Absolutely. 1388 01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:02,500 Part of the fun is not knowing where any of this is going. 1389 01:22:02,900 --> 01:22:05,900 I was like, we're not in control, we're not. 1390 01:22:05,900 --> 01:22:10,100 We're just going to see well address, thanks so much for 1391 01:22:10,100 --> 01:22:12,000 coming on. It was a great pleasure, talking 1392 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:16,900 to you really enjoyed it and maybe one last time for those 1393 01:22:16,900 --> 01:22:20,700 who want to do get more into Death of Bitcoin, spend some 1394 01:22:20,700 --> 01:22:25,100 time, trying some bring out, maybe sending some transactions 1395 01:22:25,100 --> 01:22:27,300 from the command line, I certainly will do that. 1396 01:22:28,100 --> 01:22:31,900 Yeah, check out this book mastering Bitcoin and it's on 1397 01:22:31,900 --> 01:22:33,800 GitHub as well. Know where is he? 1398 01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,700 Yeah if you search Bitcoin book on GitHub, you'll find it, it's 1399 01:22:37,700 --> 01:22:40,000 free. It's also honestly, as being 1400 01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,600 Seated on torrent sites, as a PDF, people are exchanging the 1401 01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:48,900 the Kindle version and the mobile version, which of course 1402 01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,200 This is perfectly fine and yeah so you can you can find it if 1403 01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:54,600 you're not a developer don't buy it. 1404 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:59,600 Go to read it for free and I hope you get something useful 1405 01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:04,100 from it but do buy it or tip address for for is awesome work. 1406 01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:06,800 So that's okay. Okay. 1407 01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:07,900 Well, thanks. Yeah. 1408 01:23:07,900 --> 01:23:10,300 So thanks so much for coming on and yeah, Joel is no, thanks 1409 01:23:10,300 --> 01:23:11,700 very much for listening to the show. 1410 01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:14,700 We appreciate it very much. If you want, you can follow us 1411 01:23:14,700 --> 01:23:18,800 on Twitter at Epsom Derby TC and you can also tip us. 1412 01:23:19,100 --> 01:23:22,300 And you can do that. Well depends if you listen to it 1413 01:23:22,300 --> 01:23:25,600 on it's a big point it's just in there or you can do it at Epsom, 1414 01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:28,900 victim, the Palm such tips. So thanks so much and we look 1415 01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:30,900 forward to being back next week.