1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,680 IP is an asset class where the market for that asset is so 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,040 inefficient. The transaction costs to do 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,720 business, to transact, trade, use, IP are so high. 4 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,360 And honestly, it's so inaccessible and opaque. 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:12,920 You have no information about this market. 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,360 So it's illegible, but it's also illiquid and it's high 7 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,600 transaction costs. So only the biggest, biggest 8 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,760 players with hundreds of lawyers, they're able to do 9 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,440 these like massive bespoke deals in negotiations for IP. 10 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,320 But for the 99.9% long tail of this market, nothing happened 11 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,240 because the cost of making things happen are too high. 12 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,120 You know, whether or not people think about it in this way is 13 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,120 something that we interact with far more than with stocks, 14 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:35,560 right? Every single day, we spend 3 or 15 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,640 4 hours on YouTube, on TikTok, on Instagram, we post photos, we 16 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,720 create photos. And with AI, there's going to be 17 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,160 8 billion Hollywood level creators that that can create 18 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:46,840 Hollywood level movies by just having a single idea and putting 19 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,760 in a single paragraph. So even though the word IP is 20 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,200 not how people maybe would call it, like the reality is this is 21 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,760 sort of the most tangible part of our lives, like consuming and 22 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,800 creating culture and AI is only going to supercharge that. 23 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,600 The amount of infrastructure that's been built for IP is very 24 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,400 low comparatively to how deep of an impact it makes in our 25 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,520 everyday lives. We don't just build software. 26 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,280 We actually spend a lot of time and effort on the legal side of 27 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,920 things. So I'd say for every single 28 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,440 dollar we put into building the stack I just told you about on 29 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,920 the engineering side, we probably spent as much with some 30 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,840 of the best legal teams in the world to create a new licensing 31 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,840 framework. That's first of its kind and we 32 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,440 call it the programmable IP license. 33 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,880 Essentially it's a standard legal framework that maps 1 to 34 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,800 one with the parameters on story. 35 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,720 So if you set some terms on story, let's say in order to use 36 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,960 as IP you need to pay me $5, that smart contract parameter is 37 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:38,120 also mirrored on the legal contract itself. 38 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,680 In other words, there's a one to one link between code and law 39 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,480 and story, and everything on story has a legal wrap around it 40 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,080 that's enforceable. Welcome to Epicentre, the show 41 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,360 which talks about the technologies, projects and 42 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,040 people driving decentralisation and the blockchain revolution. 43 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,480 I'm Filika Ants and today I'm speaking with Jason Zhao, the Co 44 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,480 founder of Story Protocol, which is a protocol in the IP space 45 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:06,640 that we'll dive into in just a bit before I talk to you about 46 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,039 our sponsors. If you're looking to stake your 47 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:13,120 crypto with confidence, look no further than Course 1. 48 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:17,200 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bit 49 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,840 Go, Pantera Capital and Jaja trust course one with their 50 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,120 assets. They support over 50 block 51 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,400 chains and are leaders in governance on networks like 52 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,480 Cosmos, ensuring your stake is responsibly managed. 53 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,880 Thanks to the advanced MEV research, you can also enjoy the 54 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,000 highest staking rewards. You can stake directly from your 55 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,440 preferred wallet, set up a white label note, re stake your assets 56 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,760 on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use their SDK for multi chain 57 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,200 staking in your app. Learn more at Chorus .1 and 58 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,600 start staking today. This episode is proudly brought 59 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,560 to you by Gnosis, a collective dedicated to advancing a 60 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,720 decentralized future. Gnosis leads innovation with 61 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,320 Circles, Gnosis Pay and Metri, reshaping open banking and 62 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,200 money. With Hashi and Gnosis VPN, 63 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,120 they're building a more resilient, privacy focused 64 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,680 Internet. If you're looking for an L1 to 65 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,920 launch your project, Gnosis Chain offers the same 66 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,120 development environment as Ethereum with lower transaction 67 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,200 fees. It's supported by over 200,000 68 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,640 ballot errors, making Gnosis Chain a reliable and credibly 69 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:22,520 neutral foundation for your applications. 70 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,880 Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis governance, where every voice 71 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,560 matters. Join the Gnosis community in the 72 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,000 Gnosis Dow forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible 73 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,120 Nosis chain or secure the network with just one GNO and 74 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,160 affordable hardware. Start your decentralization 75 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,600 journey today at nosis dot IO. Jason, it's super nice to have 76 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,040 you on. Thanks for having me, really 77 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,600 excited for this conversation. Before we dive into story 78 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,080 protocol, tell us a bit about yourself. 79 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,520 Absolutely. So my background is a little bit 80 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,040 more diverse. I didn't come, I haven't been in 81 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,440 the watching space for 10 years like some people here, but I've 82 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,600 been, you know, pretty interested in a couple things 83 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,120 before entering the watching space. 84 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,480 So I studied philosophy in university, really interesting 85 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,600 in political theory. And I also got a master's in 86 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,240 computer science, both at Stanford. 87 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,959 So I, I've always liked to focus on the intersection of the 88 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:21,120 humanities and, and technology. But originally, you know, my 89 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,280 first passion in technology and software was really AI. 90 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:27,200 So I did some AI research at Computer Vision lab at Stanford 91 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,120 and then I worked at DeepMind, which is Google's AI lab for a 92 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,880 couple years. And what I was doing there was 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,720 taking reinforcement learning coming out of Alpha Go and A0, 94 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,960 these large like chess playing, game playing agents and finding 95 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,920 ways to take that research, that reinforcement learning 96 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:45,200 algorithms and, and apply them to build new products on the 97 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,200 back of that. So one thing that I've been 98 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,840 really interested in throughout my career is essentially finding 99 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,560 ways to take cutting edge technical research and find ways 100 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,280 to translate that into tangible consumer products. 101 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:57,760 That's what I was doing at Deepminds, but then I got really 102 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,200 interested in blockchain, I would say around 2020, around D5 103 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,360 summer, 20/20/21. And what really excited me was I 104 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,920 started to reread the Bitcoin and Ethereum white papers, in 105 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,720 addition to Uniswap and Maker and these other core protocols. 106 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,360 And what was really striking is that reading these white papers, 107 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,880 it was almost like reading a political treatise in some ways, 108 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,120 especially like Bitcoin and Ethereum are so ideological and 109 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,880 so philosophical with a little bit of computer science mixed 110 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,920 in. So I found that element very 111 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,200 intellectually interesting that, you know, block chains had this 112 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,240 ambition to become core substrate of a new type of 113 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,720 Internet and somewhat argue even like a new type of society. 114 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,400 So that was really exciting and, and I think very fresh. 115 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,560 And then the other component was sort of the open source ethos 116 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,360 and the organic, almost Darwinian ethos of, of 117 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,600 blockchain where, you know, if you build a smart contract, it's 118 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,520 this unstoppable soft software program that can last for 119 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,160 thousands of years as long as the blockchain is maintained. 120 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,520 And the idea that other people can permissionlessly build on 121 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,400 top of your work, they can fork it, they can build an 122 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,280 application on top of it if they want, they can even maliciously 123 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:57,480 attack it, right. So if the software is 124 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,080 instruction perfectly, then there will be cracks and those 125 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,200 cracks will be manipulated. And that leaves this really open 126 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,360 research environment where you're going from white paper to 127 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,960 products, from research to production in like a matter of 128 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,000 weeks or months. Rather than what I was doing in 129 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,760 the AI world was, you know, you wait like five years to see some 130 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,440 research going to production because there's only like 5 or 6 131 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:17,680 players that can actually do that, right? 132 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,120 So that that's kind of how I got into blockchain. 133 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,040 And the, the sort of, you know, quick story of how story 134 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,240 happened is just me and my Covinder. 135 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,000 We're really focused on finding ways to build block chains that 136 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,640 could do something beyond money and beyond finance. 137 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,880 And I think IP is, you know, a $61 trillion asset class that 138 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:35,160 block chains haven't really tackled. 139 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,440 And there's so many problems that IP is having because it's 140 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,320 just so opaque, so inefficient of a market, especially with 141 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:43,760 respect to AI. You're starting to see all these 142 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,560 issues. So that's kind of how a story 143 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,280 started and and how it got into the space. 144 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,840 And what are the pain points that you currently see with how 145 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:53,880 IP is treated under the current system? 146 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,880 Yeah. So I mean, I could go on for a 147 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,160 long time about this, but just to kind of give you the high 148 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,600 level overview, you know, I think the history of crypto is 149 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,360 kind of building software based networks, blockchain networks 150 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,000 that replace struggling existing institutions, right? 151 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,480 And the best example of this is Bitcoin. 152 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,000 You have Satoshi responding to the 2008 financial crisis and 153 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,400 essentially saying, hey, like banks, maybe we shouldn't, maybe 154 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,600 we shouldn't completely rely on banks. 155 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,960 Maybe we should at least have an alternative where software is 156 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,360 intermediary instead of like this massive, you know, Goldman 157 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,120 Sachs and Lehman Brothers institution, right? 158 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,720 And so that's kind of an example of where most blockchains have 159 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,920 been focused is trying to continuing that mission of 160 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,200 decentralizing finance. But if you look at the legal 161 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,560 system, that system is way more antiquated and way less 162 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,640 sophisticated than Wall Street. Wall Street is actually quite 163 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,240 sophisticated. If you think about, just to give 164 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,160 an example, I've talked to sort of executive companies where 165 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:43,920 their entire business is owning IP, right? 166 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,720 And IP can be scientific research. 167 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,480 So it can be pharmaceuticals, It can be the biggest brands in the 168 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,560 world, think Louis Vuitton or Nike or Puma or Adidas. 169 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,080 And then also think, you know, media, right? 170 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,080 So Hollywood, music, black, pink, things like that. 171 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,400 So it's a very broad asset class, but if you go to execs in 172 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,040 any branch of this asset class, I've, I've literally heard this 173 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,400 many times where they'll tell me, hey, sometimes I just don't 174 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,400 do deals where I could actually have someone else use my IP and 175 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,840 pay me for it. Because I need to go to my legal 176 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,200 team and find out what IPI own. And that, like querying what IPI 177 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,120 own and what slice of the rights I own is actually more 178 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:19,440 expensive. It costs more millions of 179 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,960 dollars than the deal itself. So I just don't do the deal 180 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:23,520 right. And this is indicative of a 181 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,640 broader problem, which is IP is an asset class where the market 182 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,920 for that asset is so inefficient. 183 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,880 The transaction cost to do business, to transact, trade, 184 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,760 use IP are so high. And honestly, it's so 185 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,919 inaccessible and opaque to people like you. 186 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,400 You know, you and I like how do, how do I know what IPI can use? 187 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,400 There's not a place I can go. If you go to the US Copyright 188 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,640 Office, for example, it's like it looks worse than Craigslist, 189 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,200 right? So you have no information about 190 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,160 this market. So it's illegible, but it's also 191 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,800 illiquid and it's high transaction cost. 192 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,720 So it's a very inefficient market where you have only the 193 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,680 biggest, biggest players with hundreds of lawyers. 194 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,880 They're able to do these like massive bespoke deals, 195 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,320 negotiations for IP, but for the 99.9% long tail of this market, 196 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,560 nothing happened because the cost of making things happen are 197 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:04,320 too high. And that's what stories trying 198 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,080 to solve is make it easier for individual IB holders, even also 199 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,800 AI companies, right? You're starting to see Open AI 200 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,120 is getting sued by the New York Times. 201 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,840 At the same time, they're also paying a bunch of IP companies 202 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,880 like 10s of $1,000,000 a year. So like, how do you have this 203 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,120 massive discrepancy? There's this like free for all 204 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,880 in the IP world. And our thesis is like whether 205 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,680 you're an individual IP holder, whether you're an open AI, it's 206 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,240 very hard for you to license IP. Like you also can't expect open 207 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,560 AI to make 10 million licensing deals per day. 208 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,080 They don't have the resources to do that. 209 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,920 So I think the thesis is the market for IP is very 210 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,680 inefficient and you need a blocking based global market, a 211 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:39,000 transparent market, a programmable market for IP. 212 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,080 How did you stumble upon this? Kind of like interweaving set of 213 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,920 problems? Because in a way, it's very. 214 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:52,880 It's very obscure and that most of us don't really deal with IP 215 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,720 directly the way that we kind of deal with say stocks or kind of 216 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,520 like financial products or even kind of like things like 217 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,920 reputation or so that kind of other people are trying to put 218 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,280 on chain. Yeah, it's a good question. 219 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,360 So the way I got interested in this issue is a couple a couple 220 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,440 of things. So 1 is just my time at T mines 221 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,920 and my time doing AI research. There's a saying in AI research, 222 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,160 it's quite simple, but it is very truthful, which is if you 223 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,840 have garbage in, you're going to have garbage out. 224 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,240 And what that means is if you have really bad IP, really bad 225 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,880 data, you can have the world's most advanced AI model 226 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,800 algorithm. You can have the most computes, 227 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,680 all the GPS you want, and you can train it for a million 228 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,080 years, but it's still going to produce bad outputs if you train 229 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,560 it on bad data. And so very quickly I realized, 230 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,200 you know, even at DeepMind and at Stanford, that essentially 231 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,520 high quality data is a scarce resource and is a resource that, 232 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,640 again, doesn't have a very efficient market, right? 233 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,160 So not only are there a ton of legal battles around, you know, 234 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,440 like whether AI companies need to pay for IP, which I certainly 235 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,400 think they do. There's also just not an 236 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,360 efficient way to actually pay for that IP to actually even not 237 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,040 even just pay for it, but to discover it, right. 238 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,320 So the more you the closer you look at, you know, how the 239 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,360 market for this sort of like high valuable training data 240 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,040 works, the more you realize that even the most basic insights as 241 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,640 who owns what IP and how much do I need to pay and how can I pay 242 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,800 them? Like these, these questions are 243 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,280 very difficult and very expensive to answer. 244 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,080 So that's kind of my first foray into it. 245 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,640 And then, like I said before, I got really interested in 246 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,760 blockchains through D5 summer and I was thinking like, you 247 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,920 know, if blockchains truly are like this substrate for a new 248 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,040 society and or at least a new Internet, you know, can they do 249 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,600 things beyond just currencies? Because, you know, if you think 250 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,760 about the institutions that hold our society together today, 251 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,640 there's they go so much broader than just currency. 252 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:33,640 Like currency is a big part of it. 253 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,000 Money is a big part of it. But what I'd argue is IP as a 254 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,320 term is quite, you know, technical in some sense, it's 255 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,280 quite legal. But IP as a concept, you know, 256 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,520 whether or not people think about it in this way, is 257 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,520 something that we interact with far more than with stocks, 258 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:48,960 right? Every single day, we spend 3 or 259 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,040 4 hours on YouTube, on TikTok, on Instagram, we post photos, we 260 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,120 create photos. And with AI, there's going to be 261 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,560 8 billion Hollywood level creators that that can create 262 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:00,200 Hollywood level movies by just having a single idea and putting 263 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,160 in a single paragraph. So even though the word IP is 264 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,600 not how people maybe would call it, like the reality is this is 265 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,160 sort of the most tangible part of our lives, like consuming and 266 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,240 creating culture and AI is only going to supercharge that. 267 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,640 So I think most people spend far more time than on on TikTok, 268 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,800 let's say, than than on Charles Schwab or on Robin Hood and 269 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,520 certainly on Coinbase. So I think IP has a total like a 270 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,720 massive addressable market. It's very easy for people to 271 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,200 understand why it's valuable because, you know, even your mom 272 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,120 can understand. So like why Snoopy or Mickey 273 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Mouse is valuable. They might not understand like 274 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,320 why, you know, collateralized loan over collateralized loan on 275 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,120 Ave's is so valuable, right? That might be more niche, but I 276 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,640 think the amount of infrastructure that's been built 277 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,080 for IP is very low comparatively to how deep of an impact it 278 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,800 makes in our everyday lives. Why do we think kind of there 279 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,280 needs to be a needs to be a blockchain at the core of the 280 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,360 solution for this, right? Kind of like if it sounds like 281 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,200 I'm kind of some standardization and kind of like digitization 282 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,720 would already kind of make a big dent. 283 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,120 I agree. I think some standardization 284 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,400 would make a big dent. And I think the analogy I like 285 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,800 to always go back to is because it's familiar in the blockchain 286 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,800 space is money. And so I think SWIFT has has 287 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,880 somewhat standardized international payments, right? 288 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,760 There are sort of global payment standards because, you know, 289 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,040 countries with different banking systems and different currencies 290 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,800 need to be able to exchange money with each other. 291 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,400 And so we as a society have tried to come up with an like a 292 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,560 kind of overlapping set of agreements and, and standards 293 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,120 like SWIFT that allow us to pay money to each other across 294 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,640 borders. But then again, stable coins are 295 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,120 probably 100 X cheaper than SWIFT. 296 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,360 So I think that, you know, like, I think where IP is today is 297 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,480 they, they don't even have a SWIFT. 298 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,240 OK, there's no, there's no swift for IP. 299 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,520 So yes, I do agree, like even having off chain solutions would 300 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,840 be really helpful. And I think that it's great that 301 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,960 people are thinking about that. But I, I like with stable coins 302 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,560 being 10X better than SWIFT, I think a blotching based solution 303 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:54,880 will be 10X better than even like a swift for IP. 304 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,920 And the reason why is because I think the killer app, if I had 305 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,320 to summarize in one sentence for blockchain just to create 306 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,360 unstoppable programmable digital market and you have this instant 307 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,240 settlement, instant payment for IP across the world, regardless 308 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,160 of where you're from. And I think that's really, 309 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,920 really powerful. So I think that's why blockchain 310 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,080 is unnecessary. And then as a very pragmatic 311 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,240 matter, we're a developer product. 312 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,120 So we, we don't necessarily build a bunch of user facing 313 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,240 applications. We're more like Stripe or a 314 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,400 payment platform in the sense of, you know, you're not going 315 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,320 on stripe.com to pay for your hoodie or your shoes that you 316 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,480 just bought. You're, you're going on some 317 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,000 website and Stripe is powering, it's kind of behind the scenes 318 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,440 powering the payment experience. That's how we imagine the story 319 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,080 is. We're kind of like a developer 320 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,520 tool and if you're building an app that touches IP, whether 321 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,160 it's an AI application or consumer app or creator tool, 322 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,080 you're kind of using Story just to sort of register IP that's 323 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,360 being created on your app two-story or pull IP that's 324 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,240 already on Story and bring it into your app. 325 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,560 And if that's the case, we need to sell to developers. 326 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,360 And in order to sell to developers, we need to assure 327 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,200 them that if they're about to cut put their entire company's 328 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,400 IP, which could be 90% of the company's value on a system, 329 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,640 that system cannot just shut down. 330 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,080 Because what we're promising to developers or we're pitching 331 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,160 them, I should say, is you register your IP from your 332 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,520 application once on Story and can now access monetization and 333 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,400 distribution from the hundreds of other applications in our 334 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,320 ecosystem, right? So it might originate from like 335 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,040 you might create a character on one creator tool, but then that 336 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,240 character can be used as a comic in, you know, five other apps, 337 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,360 right? And so if we just, if we had the 338 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,360 ability to just shut that off, shut that IP system off, then 339 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,800 we're cutting off like a very important source of revenue for 340 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,080 that business. And I think developers from, you 341 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,160 know, seeing, for example, Twitter shut down their API, I 342 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,240 think in the 20 tens, that was very devastating, right? 343 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,240 And people have to stop trusting centralized API so much that if 344 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,480 we're asking these businesses where 90% of their value is 345 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,960 accrued in IP, like it's good to have this immutability and 346 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,240 unstoppability condition where they know that, you know, the 347 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,480 software we put out there that they're registering their IP on 348 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,840 is actually not in our control either. 349 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,720 So I think that's an added layer of benefit. 350 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,240 But I do think sort of just having a global settlement layer 351 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,160 in an instant payments is really important part of why we chose 352 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,600 to have blockchain since the back end. 353 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,040 OK. I think this sets the stage 354 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,120 super beautifully. So kind of let's dive into kind 355 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,920 of like how the protocol itself works and then we can kind of 356 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,000 loop our way back around to kind of like how how this kind of 357 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,920 applies to the real world. So story is actually its own 358 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,800 blockchain, right? So kind of what? 359 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,200 Why did you choose to kind of build a new blockchain rather 360 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,440 than kind of use an existing one? 361 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,160 Yeah. So there's two reasons for that. 362 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,480 One is more, I would say historical based on like our own 363 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,160 sort of trials and tribulations as a company. 364 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,040 The other is more philosophical and future facing. 365 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,320 So in terms of the sort of history of why we ended up 366 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,320 building it all, one that was never really our intention. 367 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,600 So we started off trying to build just a pure smart contract 368 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,600 protocol and we immediately like ran into a lot of limitation. 369 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,080 So essentially what we wanted to do, the way that IP works is 370 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,880 it's very graph like in nature if you try to represent it in a 371 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,880 database structure. And what I mean by that, one 372 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,360 example I can give is this game called Super Smash Brothers. 373 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,800 So it's a pretty popular game where you have like characters 374 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,800 from many different franchises that are able to fight with each 375 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,359 other. And it's like kind of a combat 376 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,359 game, right? So you have Mario from Nintendo, 377 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,920 you have Sonic from Sega, you have, you know, characters that 378 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,920 are licensed in essentially from let's say 5 to 10 different 379 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,520 franchises. So you can imagine there's like, 380 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,240 let's say 30 to 50 characters in that game from many different 381 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,000 franchises. And the way that we would 382 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,960 represent that on story is you'd have like 30 different parents 383 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,720 IPS. So you have Mario, you have 384 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,000 Sonic, you have some other character, and they're all kind 385 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,120 of like licensing their IP into this game, which is its own sort 386 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,200 of dots or node on this graph, right? 387 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,760 So you can imagine like 30 parent nodes all connecting to a 388 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,560 single child node. And if if the game generates 389 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,360 revenue, let's say generates $100 in revenue, that revenue 390 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,960 would be flow, it would flow up to each of the parents based on 391 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,080 the agreements that they had, right? 392 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,480 So maybe Mario gets 1% of the revenue, so it gets $1.00, 393 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,080 right? So now you have this revenue 394 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,400 coming in to this graph and flowing up to each of the 30 395 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,040 parents. But the thing about building 396 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,800 something that's permissionless and on chain is that those 397 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,720 parents can have parents as well, right? 398 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,800 So you have money moving into one node. 399 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,160 That's the game. It flows up proportionally to 400 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,680 all the parents. And then the parents have their 401 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,240 own parents. And so you have this very 402 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,920 computationally expensive graph traversal problem. 403 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,280 And the EVM as it stands today is just is not optimized to do 404 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,040 this sort of computation. And because it was so expensive, 405 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,240 we had to limit our protocol such that each IP could only 406 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,800 have two parents connected to it. 407 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,120 And that really limits the sort of things that you can do on 408 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:28,160 story. For example, if you have a song 409 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,480 that has three components, like, let's say a harmony, a melody, 410 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,440 and then like some instrumentals, you can't 411 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,800 represent that on story because you can only have two pants. 412 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,680 And so we had to limit a lot of the applications and we decided 413 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,080 that that's not the route we wanted to go. 414 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,600 Like we didn't want to just wait for the EDM to get better. 415 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,720 And So what we did was we just built our own execution 416 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,240 environment. And this kind of goes to this 417 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,720 sort of feature facing reason. We, we decided that like IP is, 418 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,600 is just a very different type of asset than money. 419 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,040 And it requires a lot of additional things beyond just 420 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,560 the graph traversal problem I mentioned to you in terms of the 421 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,840 execution environment, you also need to validate each IP. 422 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,680 You need to validate whether it's unique or not, right? 423 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,320 So if someone registers Mario, like we can't have like 5000 424 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,480 Marios on story, right? That that's not how IP works. 425 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,960 There's only one Mario and it's the unique one. 426 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,880 And then we need to, we need to track other usages of Mario, 427 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,240 right? So this even like this sort of 428 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,720 decentralized validation service, we had to build that 429 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,400 ourselves. And so the benefit of building a 430 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,120 layer one, although it's much, much more costly and takes a lot 431 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,480 more time on the sharing side is that you can customize every 432 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,840 layer of the stack. So we can choose exactly what 433 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,640 software our validators are running. 434 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,400 We can choose exactly how to customize our virtual machine. 435 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,960 And I think that, you know, the product that we put out there on 436 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,920 public main net is going to be version zero. 437 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,360 And like I think there's going to be many, many improvements, 438 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,840 fundamental improvements that we want to make over the coming 439 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,680 years as we get more feedback. And it's very difficult to 440 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,520 change and customize these things. 441 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,120 If you're I, they're building a smart contract protocol on 442 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,280 another layer one, or if you're even building a layer 2, where 443 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,880 if Ethereum is struggling, for example, you're just by default 444 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,440 struggling. And if Ethereum is making 445 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,480 certain changes, so it's OP codes, you kind of have to 446 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,720 accept those changes. And so I think for us, the 447 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,560 freedom and independence was worth the extra cost as we 448 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,800 started to encounter more and more bespoke problems that we 449 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,320 ran into. I want to double click on the 450 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,640 how do you know which one's the right Mario? 451 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,960 But kind of I want, I want to do that a little bit later. 452 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,280 So maybe, maybe first up, let's talk about kind of the tech 453 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,840 stack kind of you're building on. 454 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,320 So kind of like what tech stack did you pick and kind of like 455 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,720 which novel features did you introduce? 456 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,040 And kind of like how did you make those trade-offs when 457 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,880 you're when you were designing the system? 458 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,640 Yeah. So our current layer one is, is 459 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:52,160 a little multi layered. So we have a very, I would say 460 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,600 composable stack and in the sense that we can upgrade each 461 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,200 each layer of the stack very easily if we wanted to. 462 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,480 And that kind of alludes to the flexibility that we want to have 463 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,400 in the future. But basically on the consensus 464 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,440 level, we're using a version of Comet BFT, which is also 465 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,800 supported by the Cosmos SDK. So we have compatibility with 466 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,280 the Cosmos SDK, which we think has the biggest developer 467 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,200 ecosystem out of any sort of blockchain based SDK. 468 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,040 So that allows us to have like a very developer friendly 469 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,920 consensus level. So that's that's what we're 470 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,240 doing on on the consensus side for the validators. 471 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,400 And then on the execution layer, we started with the EVM, but we 472 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,200 made a lot of changes to solve these IP specific problems. 473 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,800 So I talked about the graph traversal issue and and flowing 474 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,400 royalties through this very large graph. 475 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,520 So we have pre compiles that are optimized towards lowering the 476 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,320 cost of that execution and we will continue adding more and 477 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,520 more execution customizations in the future. 478 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,320 And then on top of so we have the consistence layer with the 479 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,280 execution layer. Enshrined natively into our 480 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,000 execution layer is the smart contract protocol called the 481 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,840 proof of creativity protocol. And this is kind of the original 482 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,720 smart contract protocol we were building way back when, a few 483 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,920 years ago. And the basic functionality of 484 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,600 the smart contract protocol is to #1 create a standard set of 485 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,800 metadata for each IP asset so that whether your IP is from 486 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,920 country A or country B, whether it's from the US or from Europe, 487 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,080 it essentially has the same metadata whether it's registered 488 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,360 by open AI or by small in the app, right? 489 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,840 So that's number one is the same smart contract metadata. 490 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,120 And then #2 is allowing each IP to be programmable, right? 491 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,960 So not just storing the static information around each IP on 492 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,920 chain, which is relatively uninteresting, but actually 493 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,800 allowing the programmable terms that each IP owner sets for that 494 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,040 IP to be enforced automatically. And so an example I can give is 495 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,400 like, let's say I create, let's say I create like some sort of 496 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,320 music. I can register on story and I 497 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:47,600 say anyone can use this song in AI remixing if they pay me $5 a 498 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,520 fronts. And if this remix that they make 499 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,560 blows up and generates a lot of revenue, then I want 10%. 500 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,760 These terms are actually registered on a smart contract 501 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,760 through the proof of crazy every protocol. 502 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,760 And whenever someone tries to use that IP, we would actually 503 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,880 enforce the payment upfront. And then also if the derivative 504 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,080 generates revenue, we would also flow like as used in this Super 505 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,920 Sashio example, we would flow 10% of the revenue to the 506 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,480 original easy creator, right? So in this example, it would be 507 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,480 myself. And so essentially what we've 508 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,800 done is allow every single IP asset to have its own terms, its 509 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,880 own programmable parameters and to allow them to be enforced on 510 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,280 chain through story, automatically building this kind 511 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,360 of like parallel IP system on chain. 512 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,520 So that's enshrined on top of our execution layer. 513 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,480 And then the last thing on our stack is essentially this 514 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,120 validation service I was talking about, which every single IP 515 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,040 asset that comes in that gets registered to story, we actually 516 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,000 check whether it's unique based on the reference set of every 517 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,720 other asset that's already been registered on Story, as well as 518 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,560 a common sets of IP assets like Mickey Mouse or Thanos that we 519 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,280 know are likely to be infringed upon. 520 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,000 So every single IP asset that's coming to store, we actually 521 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,920 check for basic level of uniqueness before it can be 522 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,600 registered. And that's also a separate 523 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,680 system that we built that works in parallel to the stack I just 524 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,000 shared. What do you do if I kind of just 525 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:12,160 bypass story and just use, you know, the the IP without ever 526 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,360 involving story, right? Kind of like I can take this 527 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,880 song and kind of just remix it. What prevents that? 528 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,040 Yeah. So I mean, one thing that is 529 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,240 really important to note is there's many layers of defense 530 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,320 that we have. So first and foremost, right, 531 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,800 we, we don't just build software. 532 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,560 We actually spend a lot of time and effort on the legal side of 533 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,160 things. So it's safe for every single 534 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,840 dollar we put into building the stack. 535 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,240 I just told you about on the engineering side, we probably 536 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,600 spent as much with some of the best legal teams in the world to 537 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,080 create a new licensing framework that's first of its kind and we 538 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,680 call it the programmable IP license. 539 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,800 And essentially what that license is, is a standard legal 540 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,240 contract. Think about it like similar to 541 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,400 AYC safe, right? It made YC safe, made it really 542 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,560 easy for people to raise capital without having to have a priced 543 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,640 round. And so essentially it's a 544 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,160 standard legal framework that maps 1 to one with the 545 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,360 parameters on story. So if you set some terms on 546 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,720 story, let's say in order to use as IP, you need to pay me $5, 547 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,680 that smart contract parameter is also mirrored on the legal 548 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,720 contract itself. In other words, there's a one to 549 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,400 one link between code and law and story, and everything on 550 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,760 story has a legal wrap around it. 551 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,160 That's enforceable, right? So story is not guaranteeing 552 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,200 that no one will ever be able to use your IP in a malicious way. 553 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,280 That's impossible without running like some sort of Big 554 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,440 Brother security state where we track every click that 555 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,280 everyone's doing at all times. That's impossible. 556 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,640 But what we can say is at the very basic level, if you do not 557 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,000 support the terms that the creator has set, you are 558 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,440 violating the law, right? And usually that is actually 559 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,440 quite a level of deterrence that people aren't familiar with, 560 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,040 right? So if, if there is like actual 561 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,880 consequences, then people are less likely to infringe. 562 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,360 So that's kind of like the baseline, right? 563 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,800 Like the worst case scenario on story is the best case scenario 564 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,200 today, right, which is that someone violates your IP and you 565 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,080 have to go to court. That's not a very good outcome. 566 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,160 It's very expensive, but we think that's important as a 567 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,280 backstop. So that's kind of why we 568 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,600 invested on legal side. But hopefully we don't have to 569 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,400 get to that backstop. Hopefully we can actually build 570 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,840 a set of solutions that are like levels of escalation below 571 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,440 having to go to court because we want to avoid that. 572 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,440 And So what we've done is like I mentioned before, we have this 573 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,040 IP validation service. And So what it does is we 574 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,640 partnered with a lot of Web 2 enterprise providers whose, you 575 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,200 know, entire companies focus on scanning the Internet and 576 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,040 finding instances of similar images. 577 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,120 So every asset on story by virtue of it being registered on 578 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,880 story. Now all these different 579 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,720 providers are actually searching for instances where that IP is 580 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,360 being used, right? And we can flag that. 581 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:36,760 And we have an on chain attestation service where where 582 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,360 we essentially flag, hey, your IP may be used elsewhere, you 583 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,000 might want to take a look. And if the violating IP is also 584 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,920 on story, right? So let's say if there's two IPS 585 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,560 on story, 1 is pretending to be the other, we would actually 586 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,160 have the ability to demonetize the IP that's infringing. 587 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,240 So that those are sort of the ways that we like have these 588 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,560 levels of escalation such that on chain, there are already 589 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,280 quality signals to people that want to use IP as well as to the 590 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,480 IP holders that there may be something wrong or that they 591 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,280 might want to avoid using a certain IP. 592 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,480 But the legal backstop is always there, right? 593 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,120 So I think that's kind of important as well as to have 594 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:13,360 that legal backstop. I, I have more legal questions 595 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,400 in just a bit, maybe let's talk about the blockchain for for a 596 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,480 little bit. So I I assume this is proof of 597 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,080 stake, right? Yes. 598 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,240 So who are your validators? So our validators are a mix of 599 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,360 what I would say like our relatively professional 600 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,680 validators that you see working on a lot of other top block 601 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,400 chains. And then we also have a good 602 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,800 amount of validators from our community. 603 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,680 So we have validators being run by students at Stanford. 604 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,560 We have validators from people, you know, in Asia all around the 605 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,680 world. And so we, you know, right now 606 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,080 we're starting off with the Genesis set of 64 validators, 607 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,560 which is relatively common for something you see in the Cosmos 608 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,560 SDK realm for Comet BFT, because Comet BFT has two to three 609 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,600 seconds block fidelity time. So it's good to start off with a 610 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,160 smaller set of validators, but we're planning on very quickly 611 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,960 ramping that up and getting to like 80, even 100 in the first 612 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,440 year. And so when we do expand, our 613 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,400 focus will be primarily filling those with more community 614 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,360 validators. So like I know some folks at 615 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,440 Stanford that I, that I talked to some students there, like 616 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,920 they didn't get in on the Genesis set. 617 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,760 So they're very excited about getting in on the second as well 618 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,760 as like other sort of community players, either ecosystem 619 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,360 projects or folks that we work closely with outside of that. 620 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,400 I think those are the people that we're really prioritizing. 621 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,320 But right now it's a set of professional validators as well 622 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,560 as like I would say 20 to 30 community validators. 623 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,400 So it's a little bit under half that would be community. 624 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,000 And like as we expand, most of the marginal additional 625 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,240 validators should be from the community. 626 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,080 And how do you ensure interoperability with other 627 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,960 block chains because kind of like in principle you can kind 628 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,040 of use IP in different ways too, right? 629 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,320 In principle, kind of say I could use this as collateral or 630 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,680 I could kind of borrow against this and so on. 631 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,640 So how do you can you can you kind of create that level of 632 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,200 interoperability? Yes, this is something that's 633 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,520 the core focus of ours at the end of the day, because our our 634 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,680 thesis, our success case of story is that we actually become 635 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,840 a core protocol for the Internet. 636 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,360 And by that I mean there's not many people out there that like 637 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,920 our big Domain Name System fans are like HTTPS fans. 638 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,880 Like there's not many people saying, I love the Internet, 639 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,160 like, you know, IP protocol, TCPIP, right? 640 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,560 Like, because they're just the fabric of our lives. 641 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,320 Like we just take HTTP for granted. 642 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,800 We should take DNS for granted. And I think that's the level of 643 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,040 invisibility that we aspire to. And in order to get to the point 644 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,840 where we are just this, this sort of peer-to-peer IP system, 645 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,520 that power is not just government IP systems, but also 646 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,280 individual companies in this, in this massive ecosystem, we need 647 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,240 to have a lot of adoption from different parties, right? 648 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,840 And I think that starts with off chain IP. 649 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,640 So we worked with, you know, Justin Bieber, we worked with 650 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,920 Dua Lipa, we worked with some top Hollywood creators as well 651 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,280 as, you know, stability AI, right, which is one of the 652 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,280 world's largest AI companies. They, they are the creators 653 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,160 behind Stable Diffusion, which is the biggest, most most 654 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,640 remixed, I should say, most Fort image creation model, image 655 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,400 generation model in the world. So we have like these large off 656 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,840 chain partners that we work with in the AI world and in the world 657 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,720 of IP holders. And the way that we treat other 658 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,560 chains is very similar. So we just treat them as off 659 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,040 chain. Essentially, you're not on 660 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,680 story. So if you are building an IP on 661 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,920 base or Solana or Polygon or what have you, essentially it, 662 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,160 we treat it the same way as we would treat, you know, a creator 663 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,440 who Justin Bieber who isn't on chain, right? 664 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Because ultimately we want to be able to support IP no matter 665 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,040 where it is. And that IP should live wherever 666 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,160 it's living before, but it's specific transactions, it's 667 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,920 specific exchange information, it's settlement should be 668 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,760 settled on story. So I would say that we do have 669 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,120 like integration with layer 0, so we can have crushing 670 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,160 communication. But our overall philosophy is I 671 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,760 told you about the entire stack that we built. 672 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,080 There's this consensus layer, execution layer, there's a 673 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,800 protocol layer on the smart contract side, but wraps around 674 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,600 that entire stack is a simple API. 675 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,760 And it looks just like the Stripe API, right? 676 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,760 Like it's just a service that you can use. 677 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,360 And so whether your app is on Solana, whether your app is 678 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,560 completely off chain, you just call her API and it doesn't work 679 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,440 for you. So story is sort of this 680 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,440 invisible IP settlement layer, but we are wrapping and 681 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,960 abstracting away this entire stack in the form of an API that 682 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,160 anyone can call regardless of whether they're on chain or off. 683 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,320 Shame. OK. 684 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,840 How do you envision kind of the shift from you know the 685 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,560 traditional IP system to your on chain models? 686 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,920 So kind of what? How do you get people to move? 687 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,280 It's a good question. So there's two, there's two ways 688 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,800 to do this and we focused on both ways but to different 689 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,120 extense. So the first way is on board off 690 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,720 chain IP and I would say existing IP. 691 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,280 The second way is to just get net new IP on story. 692 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,920 And I actually think the second way is more interesting. 693 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,600 So we spend probably 80% of our time trying to just get all 694 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,720 future IP being created on story natively, right. 695 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,720 So I say story native on chain native IP. 696 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,640 And the reason why we spend more time there than on traditional 697 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,080 IP or existing IP is because I think about it similarly to 698 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,120 YouTube. Whenever you have like a new 699 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,760 paradigm shift in content, it's never the incumbents that are 700 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,120 the best, most avid adopters of that technology. 701 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,720 So YouTube is a good example because YouTube when they 702 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,160 started, they didn't go after Hollywood people and say, hey, 703 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,560 Steven Spielberg or James Cameron, why don't you create 704 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,640 like a 5 minute movie on YouTube, right? 705 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,160 They went after, or at least I should say, the people that 706 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960 adopted YouTube were the Mr. Beast of the world's right, or 707 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,560 people in their living rooms, like creating home videos for 708 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,320 fun. And over time, they got more 709 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,920 sophisticated. And now I would say like Mr. 710 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,680 Beast, Marquis Brownlee, these big YouTube creators probably 711 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,080 make two or three or even 10X more than the average, like very 712 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:02,880 successful Hollywood producer, director, right? 713 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680 So it's taken a couple decades. But my point is, YouTube would 714 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,520 not have succeeded if they had gone after traditional big 715 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,720 players in Hollywood. They succeeded by finding a 716 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,920 neglected class of creators and serving them, and those people 717 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,920 became YouTube native Internet native creators. 718 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,200 And I think the same thing will be true of IP when it comes to 719 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,400 story, which is that brand new like economics are going to be 720 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,520 unlocked when you have this new marketplace for IP. 721 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,120 And the people that get it may be crypto native at 1st and 722 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,160 they're probably just creating net new IP on story rather than 723 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,680 onboarding just these massive catalogs of already existing IP. 724 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,320 What is like a purely on chain native version of IP look like 725 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,120 that's kind of the ecosystem that we're building. 726 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,200 That's what a lot of the apps that have been built on top of 727 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,480 story are doing is just letting people create IP natively on 728 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,400 story. So that I think is a big focus 729 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,960 where we're not even trying to onboard the existing class. 730 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,120 And I think that's going to be very exciting. 731 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,120 On the other hand, like there's so much valuable IP out there 732 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,440 like, and we want to get as much of it on the story. 733 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,320 So we do have to work with these traditional institutions. 734 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,800 And I should think 2025 is just going to be a great year to work 735 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,840 with institutions, especially, you know, being an American 736 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,960 company like in the USI think a lot of more people in the 737 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,520 government are much more open to blockchain now, right? 738 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,880 And that's, that's a real opportunity because I think with 739 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,719 STORY, one of my goals for this year is to work with 740 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,000 institutions and in particular with copyright offices and 741 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,199 patent offices around the world, essentially because they all 742 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,639 have very outdated, very fragmented, very expensive and 743 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,280 inefficient IP systems. Imagine if every single 744 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,280 copyright that was registered in the US was also registered on 745 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,239 Story and in a standardized way such that anyone around the 746 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,400 world could use that copyright and generate revenue for that 747 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,480 American copyright holder. And same thing for someone in 748 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,120 Germany or someone in France, like they would able if they 749 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,440 registered copyright or patents with the German or French 750 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:44,920 governments, that would also be our story. 751 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,480 Now you have this fully composable network of IP. 752 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,800 And so just starting to work with governments, this 753 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,320 conversations are already starting to have with folks in 754 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,159 the US government and other governments about being a sort 755 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:56,719 of back ends for their IP systems. 756 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,000 I think that's also really exciting. 757 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,880 And actually it's going to be like way more efficient than on 758 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,600 boarding one by one. But just to kind of outline 759 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,680 progress we've already made with traditional IPS, we've already 760 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,360 started to work with, you know, we've, we've taken Justin 761 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,280 Bieber's Peaches and tokenized it as an IPRWA. 762 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,160 So now all the rights are on chain. 763 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,920 We've done that with a song with Miley Cyrus and Dua Lipa. 764 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,000 And we're planning on doing that some more with some big IPS in 765 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,640 Korea. So we, we are working with some 766 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,880 of the world's largest music catalogs and IP catalogs to on 767 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,360 ramp their IPS on the story. And then last thing I'll say is 768 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,600 with the stability AI partnership, the stable, the 769 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,360 fusion partnership, one reason that's so exciting is because 770 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,520 90s and 99% of the contents in the future will probably be AI 771 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,720 assisted, AI generated. So I think in the next decade, 772 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:44,080 we'll see, you know, in twenty, 3590% of AI content is AI 773 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,840 generated or AI assisted. And the best way to register a 774 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,240 new IP on a story is to just embed ourselves at the AI model 775 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,040 level. So now with Stable Diffusion, 776 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,600 any outputs of Stable Diffusion, if you call Stories API, it gets 777 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,400 registered on story as an IP asset. 778 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,040 So if we get embed ourselves into these AI models and these 779 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,040 AI models are what's going to be producing most of the IP in the 780 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,720 future, that's going to be huge onboarding tactic for us. 781 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:07,040 And that's something that we're jumping down on. 782 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,760 So I think there's a lot of ways to get IP, but ultimately I 783 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,480 think getting new IP is actually even more exciting than just 784 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,400 getting the existing IP. Can you tell us about some of 785 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,160 the applications that sit on on top of story and kind of like 786 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,200 create IP directly on story? Yeah, absolutely. 787 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,560 So the one I just mentioned around like tokenizing some of 788 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,600 the biggest music catalogs, that is a very interesting protocol 789 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,320 that's built on top of story called Aria. 790 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,880 And essentially what Aria does is they have really close 791 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,040 relationships with some of the biggest music catalogs in the 792 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,640 world. And eventually they'll expand 793 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,800 beyond music to Fine Arts and and other sort of IP assets. 794 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,720 But the idea is they want to do what's, you know, I'd say Ondo 795 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,080 did for T-bills, but for a much more interesting as a class, 796 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,600 which is these like really iconic IPS, right? 797 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,520 The thing about treasury bills is that, you know, anyone can 798 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,480 bring, yeah, most people can purchase treasury bills, right? 799 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,560 Treasury bills is probably one of the most common financial 800 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,520 instruments in the world. So bringing it on chain is less 801 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,320 beneficial, I I think because it's already so common. 802 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,440 And also treasury bills are not programmable. 803 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600 So I mean, if you have it on chain, like the programmability 804 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,560 of that treasury bill is not enhanced by bringing it on 805 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:15,360 chain, there's not much you can do. 806 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,280 It's just it's a treasury built. Whereas with IP, what Aria is 807 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,480 doing is they're bringing some of the biggest hits out there, 808 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,760 right? Like I just use Justin Bieber 809 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,520 speeches as an example, and they're bringing it on to Story, 810 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,280 which does two things. One, it means that people who 811 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,000 have no access to IPS and asset class, right? 812 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,240 I was talking about the 99.9% long tail. 813 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,800 All these people, you and I can now access the yield from all 814 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,320 the streams of Justin Bieber's speeches, right? 815 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,000 So as I'm listening to Justin Bieber's speeches on Spotify, I 816 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,360 am benefiting the people who have access to that asset on 817 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,000 Aria. And that's really exciting 818 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,800 because you're not taking this asset that used to be held by 819 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,520 like the top .1% of institutions and letting everyone have access 820 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,760 to it. But it's not just a yield 821 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,640 because that part is kind of similar to what Ando's doing 822 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,480 with treasury bills, bringing treasury bills yield on chain. 823 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,280 What's even more exciting is that the rights are also on 824 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:02,640 chain. So not just the economics, but 825 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,320 also the rights are on chain. And so whoever owns the Justin 826 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,480 Bieber asset or even a fractionalized part of that 827 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,600 asset on Story now has the rights to create AI remixes of 828 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,320 that song, right? And that's really exciting 829 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,160 because that licensing is done through Story. 830 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,240 And that's something that just isn't possible in the 831 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,400 traditional legal world. If I wanted to remix Justin 832 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,000 Bieber's speeches, I mean, I would have to go talk to his 833 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,560 lawyers, right? That they'll be very, very 834 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:26,720 difficult for me to do that. Now. 835 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,360 I can do it with a single click on Story. 836 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,200 So I think that's one exciting use case. 837 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,640 The state Stable Diffusion is another one. 838 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,240 And then we are actually announced recently that David 839 00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:38,400 Goyer, who is the creator behind The Dark Knight trilogy, the big 840 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,880 Batman movie series, he's the lead screenwriter there. 841 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,760 He's actually creating a brand new IP franchise on story where 842 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,520 every single character, every single spaceship, every single 843 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,560 story in that universe is on story. 844 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,560 And his fans and his community can actually extend and add new 845 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,240 stories, add new characters, add new lore. 846 00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:59,800 And if accepted by David, they're actually share revenue 847 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,880 in the entire franchise. So if that franchise becomes a 848 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,320 movie and generates a lot of revenue, all their revenue would 849 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,080 be shared with people who contribute along the way. 850 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,120 So it's almost like a Wikipedia for fiction where you have these 851 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,840 atomic building blocks, these IP assets that the community can 852 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,800 now have full reign to build on top of. 853 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,200 And now there's actually already AI agents being trained on top 854 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,400 of the IP that David has put out, so that these AI agents are 855 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,440 actually creating, you know, short films, images based off of 856 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,120 the Canon, and they can monetize as well, right? 857 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,560 So this is an example of a sort of a creator who's actually 858 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,960 leaning in to opening up that IP, creating a market around it, 859 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,000 leaning into AI, even extending his work and helping him make 860 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,480 revenue. Because if that AI does a really 861 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,600 good job, builds a lot of popularity, generates a lot of 862 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,400 revenue, David is also going to get the share. 863 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,160 So I think all these things are like very exciting early 864 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,320 experiments of how story can be used in AI has where it can be 865 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,280 used in sort of defy or IP FI and then also just by like 866 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,920 everyday users that may not be crypto native. 867 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,040 I think IP is going to bring a lot of people on chain that just 868 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,360 had no reason to be on chain before. 869 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,680 You talked about the legal framework that kind of you're 870 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,320 setting up to go alongside the software part of this, in which 871 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,440 jurisdictions is, is that recognized? 872 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,280 Yeah. So luckily for us, we started 873 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,120 with copyright. And the the great thing about 874 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,280 copyright is that there's this thing called the Burn 875 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,680 Convention, which is a little bit obscure, but basically the 876 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,760 Burn Convention, I believe it was 18841886, essentially around 877 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,880 200 countries around the world met to harmonize the basic 878 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,280 standards of copyright law, right. 879 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,920 And the reason why that's important is because if I 880 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,120 created Pikachu as Nintendo in Japan, that doesn't mean that 881 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,680 like, someone in the US who's not in Japan should be able to 882 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,560 use Pikachu freely, right? Like you want but these ideas 883 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,720 and this creativity and this knowledge to be global and you 884 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:43,960 want it to be protected globally. 885 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,360 And so most copyright law is it functions relatively similarly 886 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,000 across countries. What is difference is 887 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,080 enforcement. So some countries enforce 888 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,520 copyright much more heavily than others. 889 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,040 But when it comes to at least declaring this sort of 890 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,200 principles, they are very similar. 891 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,760 And our legal contract is designed primarily with the US 892 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,600 mines, but in a way that it is compatible with most other 893 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,920 countries copyright systems. And so that allows us to start 894 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,400 giving global or near global protection to to basically all 895 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,320 the people using story, right. So that's why one of the reasons 896 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,520 why we started with copyright is because you do have this global 897 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,040 harmonization on the basic principles of copyright law. 898 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,280 OK, I understand. What are the flavors of I, I PR 899 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,440 there? I mean, there must be more, 900 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,720 right? Yes. 901 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,160 So there's copyright, which covers media, right? 902 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,600 So you think about songs, movies, anything creative or 903 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,120 like a poem, a new character. And then there's there's patents 904 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,600 which cover sort of unique ideas or processes. 905 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,480 So you can patent a drug, you can patent a specific process 906 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,800 for making a car, things like that. 907 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,240 And then there's trademarks, which are sort of protecting the 908 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:51,040 brands that businesses and people kind of do commerce 909 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,640 around, right? So like think about Nike logo 910 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,640 that's trademark. And so yeah, patents and 911 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,080 trademarks are a little bit more complex. 912 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,400 That's something that we haven't we're not supporting on day one 913 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,720 of mainnet is patents and trademarks, but it's something 914 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:02,960 that we're very interested in supporting. 915 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,960 And I actually think the inefficiencies and patents and 916 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,080 trademarks are much higher than in copyright because they're 917 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,160 just higher value assets in general on average. 918 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,400 And so right now we're we're kind of starting to do the legal 919 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,080 work to also have that legal wrapper for patents and 920 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,440 trademarks on story. But one of the things that we'll 921 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,120 have to deal with, as you said, is that they're less global, 922 00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:22,600 right? So you have a Patent Office in 923 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,800 the US, you have a Patent Office in Germany. 924 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,160 Those are completely different patent offices with different 925 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,120 processes. So being able to harmonize that 926 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,360 we might have to go country to country as opposed to copyright, 927 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,000 which is much more global. OK, Maybe let's talk about the 928 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,320 enforcement of IP rights on story. 929 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,880 So kind of like you talked about Mario and only being able to 930 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,920 kind of like upload Mario once. How do you discern who who the 931 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,480 true Mario IP holder is to kind of give them the rights of 932 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,040 reaping the the yield on on that asset? 933 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,200 Yeah. So the way that we do this is 934 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,640 twofold. So there's sort of like AI would 935 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,520 say like an information signal layer and then there is a 936 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,720 dispute layer. And so the information signal 937 00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:06,400 layer, every single asset that someone tries to register on 938 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,920 story, we have four or five different IP partners that 939 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,560 essentially are specialized. They're basically API services, 940 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,880 right? SAS services that go and scan 941 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,240 the Internet and say, hey, have I ever seen something that looks 942 00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:19,520 like this? And if so, what percentage 943 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,320 confidence do I have that this is infringing or not unique. 944 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,240 So every single asset that comes in the story, we actually query 945 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,880 a series of these AP is and kind of average out the results and 946 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,600 try to give a signal. Now it's not binding. 947 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,040 So the signal might say, hey, this is like 99% likely to be 948 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,760 infringing. And the idea is that like we're 949 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,720 a permissionless protocol, right? 950 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:41,480 So ultimately if you see a Mario asset and we're like this is 99% 951 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,320 infringing and you want to use it, then you're running that 952 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:44,880 risk as a user, right? But we want to provide 953 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,520 developers and their end users as much information as possible. 954 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,320 So we have all these signals that every IP asset has based on 955 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,760 it's analysis, right? The the sort of second layer of 956 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,840 this is a dispute system. So anyone around the world can 957 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,520 dispute an IP asset on story and say, hey, this asset is actually 958 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,840 infringing. So if Nintendo goes and sees 959 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,040 this Mario with 99% certainty that it's infringing and it's 960 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,360 like this is not registered by a Nintendo employee, then they can 961 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,680 go and dispute it. And the dispute process right 962 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,800 now we're using UMA, which is the same thing that settles Poly 963 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,000 market. But in the future, we want to 964 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,200 have, you know, professional lawyers and and you know, more 965 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,960 sophisticated methods of settling disputes. 966 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,240 But basically there's an on chain arbitration process and 967 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,360 the results of that process is enforced on chain, right. 968 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,320 So in the case of Mario being 99% chance of infringing, 969 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,360 Nintendo raises disputes. Well, the dispute is probably 970 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,280 going to end that this asset is indeed infringing and it would 971 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,160 be demonetized and essentially not surfaced by story zone API 972 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,320 and story zone indexing, right? Because it's on chain, we can't 973 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,880 actually remove it and we don't want to like censor fully. 974 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,720 So you can still look at it on chain, but it will say, hey, 975 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:48,920 this is, you know, an asset that's been successfully 976 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,120 disputed. So we have basically our own on 977 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,160 chain sort of information system, almost like a sort of 978 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,600 like, you know, nutrition facts of each IP and then also an on 979 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,880 chain dispute system, which is like an on chain court that can 980 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,040 actually take decisions. So that is all the sort of on 981 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,640 chain apparatus that we've had to build to make story like a 982 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,800 high quality IP repository, a global IP marketplace. 983 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,000 And then like I said before, like I mean, maybe they're not 984 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,160 perfect because we're just starting out. 985 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:15,560 So maybe there's some gaps on the edges. 986 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,080 That's why we also have the legal backing where, you know, 987 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,320 if none of that works, then you can still take it to court and 988 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,680 you'll still have that protection from the law. 989 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,080 But I mean, to the extent that we can avoid that, we want to 990 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,480 because it's very expensive to do that. 991 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,000 So we try to keep things on chain. 992 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,080 Say I'm I'm the original Mario owner and kind of like someone 993 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,680 else has uploaded it. Do you force me to kind of 994 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,640 dispute it on chain first or can I take you to to court right 995 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,120 away because kind of like you you. 996 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,920 Can do that right away. Yeah, yeah, OK. 997 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,160 Because you can't really force someone to kind of like. 998 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,560 No, of course not. Yeah, the dispute is more of 999 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,920 like we think, I mean, if you're a Nintendo, I think it's maybe 1000 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,200 like a hard to use Nintendo's example. 1001 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,880 They probably already have a bunch of lawyers that are suing 1002 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,320 people out. So they probably don't need 1003 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,280 this. But we're really thinking about 1004 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,320 the long tail, right? So if you're a creator, I mean, 1005 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,880 the unfortunate truth of the current legal system as I set up 1006 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,480 is that it, it's, it's biases towards people who infringe on 1007 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,840 IP because the cost of persecute or prosecuting IP infringement 1008 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,560 is so high that most creators choose not to, right? 1009 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,000 So if you're a creator and you're not making that much 1010 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,840 every year and someone violates your IP, it's going to cost you 1011 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,080 10s of thousands of dollars over potentially multiple years to to 1012 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,440 go and say, hey, this person, you know, to go to court, right? 1013 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,680 So it's actually incentivizes creators to not file a suit. 1014 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,360 And that systematically biases the system towards people who 1015 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,760 infringe because they know a lot of these people, they don't have 1016 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,200 the resources to defend themselves. 1017 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,720 What we're trying to do is, at least if it's on story, if it's 1018 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:40,680 on chain, we're giving you a very cheap way to sort of defend 1019 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,920 yourself that's much less cost prohibitive than the traditional 1020 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,320 system. But of course, if someone wants 1021 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,840 to go straight to the, you know, very, very complex gunfights of 1022 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,920 the traditional legal system, then of course they can do that. 1023 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,720 But you can't remove my IP from from, from the blockchain, 1024 00:46:57,720 --> 00:46:58,480 right? Kind of like it's 1025 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,400 permissionless. And even if kind of like even if 1026 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,240 it was something that I, I wouldn't want to be online, you, 1027 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,720 you can't remove it, right? We can't remove it. 1028 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:14,040 It's in the sense of we choose not to censor on story because 1029 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,800 we don't want to be. But you could truth. 1030 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,640 Well, it's, it's, it's it's hard to remove content that's on 1031 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,320 chain. It depends on whether it's on 1032 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,160 IPFS or are we like on, are we? It's very difficult to remove. 1033 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,760 If it's on IPFS, then there are ways to do that. 1034 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,320 But the, you know, even if we could, we wouldn't because we 1035 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,640 think it's important to be like a sort of censorship resistance 1036 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,400 and in line with the uses of blockchain. 1037 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,800 But that's why we have this API, right? 1038 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,280 So functionally speaking, it's kind of like it's kind of like 1039 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,400 Twitter. If Twitter decided, OK, we're 1040 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,360 not going to remove your post, but we're just going to make 1041 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,960 sure that the algorithm never serves your post to anyone. 1042 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,960 And the only way to see this is if you have to go on the 1043 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,880 specific profile, right? Except 20 times harder because 1044 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,760 navigating the blockchain is not, you know, it's not like as 1045 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,120 easy as navigating Twitter. So that's kind of the idea, 1046 00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,840 right? It's kind of like we just don't 1047 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,840 show anyone this asset anymore. So if someone calls our API, we 1048 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,720 just don't show it to them. Now, if someone wants to go and 1049 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,480 you know, actually traverse the blockchain, then they can find 1050 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:11,960 it. But you know, the amount of 1051 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,080 people who want to do that are are probably very low. 1052 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,600 And so it's functionally a soft, it's soft removal, but we don't 1053 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,120 want to actually remove all possibility for people to 1054 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,400 actually access this. You said earlier that you can 1055 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,040 also demonetize certain IP. How do you do that? 1056 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,000 So essentially just we just prevent people from. 1057 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,040 So we have this sort of royalty system, so we prevent people 1058 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,760 from being able to send funds to that wallet that's part of the 1059 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,920 royalty system. So basically like every IP asset 1060 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,600 has its own wallet, a smart wallet associated with it. 1061 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,920 So it almost has like is autonomous bank account attached 1062 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,600 to each IP, but that bank account is kind of held through 1063 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,080 stories, proof of creativity protocol. 1064 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,600 And one of the features in that protocol is we can actually 1065 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,800 prevent that account from occurring more value if it's 1066 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,320 deemed as disputed. So essentially we just remove 1067 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,080 the ability for that IP asset. You know, let's say you know, 1068 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,760 it's owed $10 because some royalties were, were shared. 1069 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,160 It's it's unable to claim those $10 from its wallet. 1070 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,960 How does the governance behind that work? 1071 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,280 The governance for for stories mostly done on the blockchain 1072 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,160 level. So we, we have like some basic 1073 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,240 governance through, you know, decentralization. 1074 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:27,000 We have a forum, but essentially like the governance is, is it's 1075 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,320 making suggestions to how we can improve the protocol. 1076 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,560 But for now, we kind of want to make sure that we can steer the 1077 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,760 protocol for the first few months before we sort of allow 1078 00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:36,800 things to be decentralized progressively. 1079 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,800 I think the first few things that we'll decentralize is 1080 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,800 actually protocol fees rather than the specific logic of the 1081 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,720 royalty module. So for example, you know, you 1082 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:46,200 know, Uniswap has protocol fees and the, and the Dow has the 1083 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,640 ability to sort of turn it on and off. 1084 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,640 I think that's something that we'll be looking at, giving that 1085 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,040 decision to the community. OK. 1086 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,400 But in due course kind of the community will be, it will be 1087 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,080 the one deciding which IP to demonetize. 1088 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,920 No. So that's based on the dispute 1089 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,680 dispute system. So in this case, it would be UMA 1090 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,000 and the people participating in that on UMA. 1091 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,560 But in the future, we want to add a lot more dispute options 1092 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,480 so that it's not just one option, but basically the 1093 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,480 dispute process and the outcome. That process is binding. 1094 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:22,920 There are ways to, let's say, try to reverse that dispute as 1095 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,840 well, so you can challenge the dispute, but essentially, or 1096 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,560 appeal I should say, but essentially the dispute system 1097 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,440 is what is used to turn on and off the royalties. 1098 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,200 And once kind of an item has been disputed, can they just 1099 00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,560 upload it again and I have to dispute it again? 1100 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,680 Or do you ban kind of like re uploads? 1101 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,360 Yeah, it's hard to ban re uploads in some sense because 1102 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,960 people can I mean, even if we try to ban a wallet, right, 1103 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,440 anyone can create a new wallet. And so it's kind of like a 1104 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,800 constant battle. Like I think there's no, there's 1105 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,680 no unless we centralized the whole thing, there's no one but. 1106 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,520 You said you scan the content, right? 1107 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,520 When I registered you scan yes. We do scan the content. 1108 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,480 Yeah, yeah. So. 1109 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,160 So you could in principle do it right. 1110 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,600 We could in principle do it, but you know, you know, you never 1111 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,600 know if Nintendo is the one that's actually registering it, 1112 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,040 right? So we don't want to ban, let's 1113 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,120 say, Mario. We don't want to just ban Mario 1114 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,720 forever because Nintendo could actually register Mario rather 1115 00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:19,120 than some random person, right? So that that's why we don't want 1116 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:20,960 to ban the image, because the image, maybe there's nothing 1117 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,360 wrong with it. It's just the person that's 1118 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:23,680 registering it. It's not the one that owns the 1119 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,160 image. OK. 1120 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:31,080 And the person who's registering the image without my permission 1121 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,560 as the IP holder, are they penalized in any way other than 1122 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,280 kind of like being demonetized? Because otherwise they can just 1123 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,720 grieve me, right? Kind of like they can just make 1124 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:46,800 5 million accounts and kind of upload the, the Mario pick 1125 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,840 5,000,005 million times. And kind of like I have to 1126 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,880 dispute it 5,000,000 times and kind of it'll just cost me a 1127 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,000 bunch of time. Yeah. 1128 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,520 So I think that in that case, right, I mean, it's a good edge 1129 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,000 case, but ultimately, I mean that is the sort of risk of a 1130 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,760 permissionless system is that you have the ability for people 1131 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,920 to do things openly. I think what in realistic will 1132 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,480 happen is that essentially like there will be social consensus 1133 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,680 and there will be reputation systems built around this. 1134 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,960 And so like we already have a lot of apps that are focused on 1135 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,320 this specific sort of problem. We don't have to solve every 1136 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:17,840 problem ourselves as like an ecosystem. 1137 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,560 So one example is essentially there's a, there's an 1138 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,440 application called Verio which allows people to stake IP on 1139 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:29,000 assets and say, hey, if I'm staking this token on an IP 1140 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,840 asset, I'm basically saying, I believe that this is a real one, 1141 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:33,880 right? And so I think there are going 1142 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,520 to be a lot of sort of immune system sort of type of responses 1143 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,320 that develop in the ecosystem where people might only really 1144 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,800 look at or take seriously IPS with a certain level of stake. 1145 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,600 And if everyone knows, hey, like for whatever reason, there's 1146 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:50,920 5000 Mario's on story, but this one has 10,000 USCC stakes, then 1147 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,840 that one's going to be the the accepted one and the other 5000 1148 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,320 will probably be looked at with, you know, just an understanding 1149 00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:58,880 that that is not the real consensus one, right? 1150 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,200 So I think there are sort of like many crypto economic ways 1151 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,200 that we can actually generate legitimacy in a more scalable 1152 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:06,760 way. But ultimately, like as a matter 1153 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,320 of practice, we are not trying to limit the amount of people 1154 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,400 who can register. And even if we tried to limit 1155 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,000 specific wallets, they can always create more wallets, 1156 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,720 right? So the way that we approach this 1157 00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:18,440 problem is less how can we prevent any wrongdoing because 1158 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,040 if you want to have 100% success in preventing wrongdoing, you 1159 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:22,440 need to have full control over the system. 1160 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,240 And that just kind of now you're avert into this sort of 1161 00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:28,560 centralized version of IP that governments try to do very 1162 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,480 unsuccessfully. And in trying to achieve 1163 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,960 perfection, they actually achieved meat equity, whereas we 1164 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,000 could have more scalable systems that have like, you know, 1165 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,120 different approaches to developing an immune response, 1166 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,640 that kind of spamming or other forms of long tail behavior to 1167 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,480 make them unprofitable essentially, right? 1168 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,720 Because you know, if you have a lot of IP staked or a lot of 1169 00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:51,400 tokens staked on one asset, and then there's 4000 other versions 1170 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,240 of that asset that don't have any, then it's pretty clear 1171 00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:55,320 which one is the real 1. OK. 1172 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,800 What do you do in a case where kind of the I, the IP rights are 1173 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,080 disputed even off chain? Because that happens very 1174 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,360 regularly, right? I mean, there's IP fights all 1175 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,720 the time. Say I developed a drug and 1176 00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:13,760 someone else says they kind of developed the same drug ahead of 1177 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,800 me and that there's a lawsuit. Do you just freeze kind of the 1178 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,240 registering of that IP until it's decided in court? 1179 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:24,800 Yeah. So one thing that we are 1180 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,840 developing is essentially a way to kind of take off chain events 1181 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,440 and bring them on chain. So there's this thing called the 1182 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,240 story orchestration service. And actually the story 1183 00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:36,240 orchestration service is one thing that we already use now to 1184 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,080 coordinate these like off chain infringement detection 1185 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:40,920 providers. So these these detection 1186 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,000 providers are not primarily serving boxing companies. 1187 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,320 They're primarily serving boxing companies. 1188 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:46,760 And so they have like some sort of, you know, auction algorithm 1189 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,800 and then they send a result to us and we need to bring that 1190 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,440 result on the story. So one thing that we want to 1191 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:56,480 extend is if there are off chain disputes, can we actually have 1192 00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,560 an Oracle that brings them on chain and updates with the 1193 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,440 result, right. Ultimately our thesis that story 1194 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,040 is kind of similar to stable coins in a way where, you know, 1195 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,760 stable coins, they are totally ERC 20 tokens. 1196 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,440 If they're on theorem, they're totally like, you know, 1197 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,800 blockchain native, but they derive their legitimacy from the 1198 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:18,000 US dollar and then they take the US dollars legitimacy and add in 1199 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,200 the blockchain technology to make it much better, right? 1200 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,280 So now you have instant global payments with stablecoins 1201 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,520 instead of having to go through all these terrible processes if 1202 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,440 you just had U.S. dollars. I think stories are the same 1203 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:27,680 thing, right? Like we're not trying to create 1204 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,320 a parallel legal system where like we have a completely 1205 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,280 different set of laws. What we're trying to do is take 1206 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,320 the legitimacy of the legal system and then make it 1000 X 1207 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,200 better on chain. And so if there are things 1208 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,200 happening in the traditional legal system, then we should be 1209 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,040 responsive to it. And that's a really great point. 1210 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,720 So I think right now we don't have that support live, but one 1211 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:48,680 thing that the story organization service is meant to 1212 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,320 do is to bring the relevant events and analysis from off 1213 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,320 chain world into on chain world. So as, as time goes on and as 1214 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,720 we, you know, prove story out, I think that that'll be an 1215 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:01,400 essential feature. And actually one thing that I am 1216 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,960 eager to do is, is actually, you know, when people violate IP on 1217 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,360 story to take it to court in the traditional legal system, just 1218 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,840 to prove to everyone using story that this actually does work and 1219 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,200 that we're putting our money where our mouth is. 1220 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,920 So I, I, I think that we're, we're sort of driving towards 1221 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,000 that institutional adoption by showing that we're going to put 1222 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,200 our money where our mouth is. OK. 1223 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,800 Can you outline the road map map for story? 1224 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,440 So what are the key milestones in the next year and beyond 1225 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:27,360 that? Yeah. 1226 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,240 So I mean, the biggest milestone for us coming up is our public 1227 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:32,160 main net launch. So that's going to be very, very 1228 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,840 soon. And you know, I'm really excited 1229 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,080 to to to sort of celebrate that with the community with the team 1230 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,440 because we've been working on this for three years. 1231 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,160 And so we've had a few test Nets by now, and this will be like 1232 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,520 our first main net and just making sure everything goes well 1233 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,640 beyond that, looking forward to deep in our relationship with 1234 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,440 stability AI, as well as working with, you know, some big players 1235 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,520 in the AI world's. Because I think, you know, story 1236 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,120 is one of those few projects in the blockchain space that can 1237 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,000 work with these massive AI companies because we're 1238 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,040 providing them with this massive essentially training set of IP 1239 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,280 that they can use, but also pay for, right, in a legal way. 1240 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,880 So continue to work with AI providers, starting to work with 1241 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,760 governments, as I mentioned, and then essentially just building 1242 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,080 up the ecosystem. And a lot of the technology, 1243 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,960 like the way that we see story, as I mentioned, is it's not a 1244 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,240 finished product. Like even though it's on 1245 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:19,080 mainnet, I think a lot of a lot of the blockchain space has this 1246 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,200 notion of like once you launch on mainnet, it's kind of like 1247 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,360 the core thing it's done, it's set in stone, but we kind of see 1248 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,120 this as an iterative approach. And so we're dropping our white 1249 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,840 paper very soon, which will show a lot of the future directions 1250 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,440 we have. But I think there's a lot of 1251 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,840 innovations we can make in decentralized file storage. 1252 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,080 I think there's a lot of innovations we can make in 1253 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,840 connecting deeper to the AI stack and knowing, you know, the 1254 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,320 moment AI model generate something, whether it can be 1255 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,760 registered on story. I think there's just going to be 1256 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,360 a lot of technical upgrades to our also just like basic 1257 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,560 scalability as a blockchain as we get more and more adoption. 1258 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:55,040 So I see our tech as very much V0, and I think we're just going 1259 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,600 to have to add a lot more bells and whistles as the year goes 1260 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,320 on, in addition to partnering with these AI companies and 1261 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,560 working with governments. Cool, so if a creator or 1262 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,720 developer kind of wants to get involved with sorry, where would 1263 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,760 you send them? Yeah, so for developers, 1264 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,640 definitely our docs, so docs dot story dot foundation, we updated 1265 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,480 like more than once a week. So super live, super up to date. 1266 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,160 We also have a version that you can easily download to train an 1267 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,800 AI agent on. So we know that a lot of people 1268 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,000 are coding with AI helpers now. So you know, our documentation 1269 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,080 is AI consumable. And then for creators, we 1270 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,080 actually going to launch a very interesting first party app that 1271 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,440 allows you to seamlessly register IP on story very 1272 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:33,600 shortly after our public main net. 1273 00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:35,160 So I'd encourage you to experiment with that. 1274 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,440 It's going to be called the IP Portal and it's going to be a 1275 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,560 really, really easy app for you to register, protect and 1276 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,640 monetize your IP without having any technical ability or knowing 1277 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,160 what the blockchain is. So that will be launched pretty 1278 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:47,280 shortly after our public maintenance. 1279 00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,960 Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on, 1280 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:51,360 Jason. Thank you. 1281 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:52,080 Thank you for having me.