1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,800 This episode is brought to you by Gnosis. 2 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,480 Gnosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the Ethereum 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:24,280 ecosystem with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,000 like Safe Cow Swap or Gnosis Chain. 5 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,880 Gnosis combines needs driven development with deep technical 6 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,160 expertise. 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Chorus One is one of the biggest 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,120 node operators globally and will help you stake your tokens on 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,320 more than 45 networks like Etherium, Cosmos, Celestia and 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,360 Dydx. More than 100,000 delegators 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,960 stake with Chorus One, including institutions like Bit, Go and 22 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:33,480 Ledger. Sticking with Chorus 1 not only 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,280 gets you the highest yields, but also the robust security 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,040 practices and infrastructure that are usually exclusive for 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,160 institutions. You can stake directly to Chorus 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,040 One's public node from your wallet, set up a white label 27 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,760 node, or use the recently launched product Opus to stake 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,600 up to 8K ES in a single transaction. 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,120 You can even offer high yield staking to your customers using 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,200 the Chorus API. Your assets always remain in 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,600 your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind and you 32 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,800 can start staking today at chorus.com. 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,160 Welcome to Epicenter the show which talks about the 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,080 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 35 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,000 and the blockchain revolution. This is phenomenal. 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,360 Today is Epicenter's 10th birthday and we're very pleased 37 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,560 to be doing this special edition live stream with lots of special 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,920 guests and and as you'll see here, a special Co host who I'll 39 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,600 introduce in just a second. But first, I just want to say 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,880 just how exciting this is that, you know, 10 years ago Brian and 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,920 I were releasing the very first pilot episode of Epicenter. 42 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,480 So throughout this live stream we'll be bringing in people. 43 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,120 It's sort of a call in show. We'll have like lots of friends, 44 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,000 listeners and former guests of the show come in, give their 45 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,000 thoughts or share their impressions on the industry and 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,600 also share something interesting anecdotes. 47 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,760 We've also got some Epicenter trivia. 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,920 We'll go back down memory lane. I've got some stuff prepped here 49 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,920 to keep everything exciting. But first, yeah, welcome 50 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:14,560 everyone. How's everybody doing? 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,920 Great. Good. 52 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,520 So 10 years Crazy stuff. Yeah. 53 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,560 So I I wanna just introduce the person down on the on the on the 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,000 on the bottom right here. So Adam B Levine who some I'm 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,960 I'm sure the O GS will remember as the host of let's Talk 56 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,440 Bitcoin and people have been listening to the show long 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:43,600 enough will know the story of how Brian and I met back in 2013 58 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,840 through let's talk Bitcoin. So Adam wants to just introduce 59 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,400 yourself briefly here and we'll we'll get started. 60 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:51,680 Sure. Thanks, Deb. 61 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,400 Yeah, I'm Adam B Levine. I've been on basically both 62 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,120 sides of like disruptive technology, journalism and 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,360 entrepreneurialism. About 11 years ago at this 64 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,760 point, I started Let's Talk Bitcoin on the spring of 2013 65 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,160 and that was kind of immediately right place, right time, 5th 66 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,080 Bitcoin podcast I'd started at a point. 67 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,360 At that point there was really no other shows around that were 68 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,440 talking about this stuff. And then as we came into the end 69 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,240 of the year, we were very popular, growing very fast, and 70 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,800 I was annoyed that there were no other shows that I could listen 71 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,880 to outside of myself. And I do like listening to my 72 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,280 own voice, but, but that led me to start a contest through the 73 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:36,960 network that had about 20 submissions. 74 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,080 And I will, I think we can confirm at this point that 75 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,600 EPICENTER is the longest lasting, greatest success that 76 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,880 came out of that batch. But it was a pretty good batch. 77 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,920 And a lot of those shows lasted for a few years. 78 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,400 So that was sort of the, you know, another catalyst moment. 79 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,960 I like to do that whenever I can and I'm very happy that you guys 80 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,120 have had such success and I'm very happy that I was able to 81 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,280 help you guys get started. So congratulations on 10 years. 82 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:03,000 It's a huge accomplishment. Yeah, absolutely. 83 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,800 I mean, when I got into Bitcoin, it was basically just when you 84 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,920 guys started Let's off Bitcoin maybe like a month after that. 85 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,800 And I was like writing my master's thesis at the time. 86 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,480 Didn't have like too much time except whenever I was like 87 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,200 cycling somewhere. I was living in Berlin at the 88 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,560 time, You know, I was listening to let's off Bitcoin, right? 89 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,720 So listen to like all of the episodes. 90 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,680 And there was like a really, really great way to to kind of 91 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,680 get into it. And it was super exciting. 92 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,000 And then I know, you know, I was just a fan of big of podcasts, 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,800 right. Because like it was for me kind 94 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,640 of the the one of the main ways of learning about Bitcoin early 95 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,000 on. So then when I was like, OK, I 96 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,280 want to work fully in in this area and you had this contest 97 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:51,920 and I was a fan of the sort of podcast format and felt it was 98 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,320 such a powerful way to to learn, you know, to build a network to, 99 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,280 you know, speak with interesting people. 100 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:03,400 And then the the chance to launch our own podcast was, was, 101 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,000 you know, was exciting. And then I remember I think he 102 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,120 had this call out and it said like, OK, there's going to be a 103 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,920 call for anyone interested in participating. 104 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,920 And it was only like maybe 5-6 people on this call. 105 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,520 And I think Sebastian and I were the only ones in Europe. 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,160 We didn't know each other. Yeah. 107 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,240 By the time and they were like, OK, let's, let's try to do this 108 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,120 thing together. Yeah, and then? 109 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,200 Yeah, did that pilot episode and then, and it was surprising 110 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,040 actually, how many people still ended up doing the pilot episode 111 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,520 right, because in that in that first call you you organized 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,120 there, there was not a lot of people in there. 113 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,880 But afterwards, yeah, quite a lot of episodes came through. 114 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,360 And yeah, I'm excited we kept going. 115 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,160 Yeah, I think it was about 20 episodes. 116 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,160 I think we had about 20 pilots that came out of that. 117 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,760 And I think we wanted the intent was to be like, hey, this is 118 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,160 gonna be the, you know, the top two or three shows. 119 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,600 And I think we wound up taking on 7 or 8 because we're like, 120 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,720 oh, well, actually, you know this is, this is all pretty 121 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,280 compelling. And yeah, I remember that call 122 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:02,080 that we that I remember the kickoff call. 123 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,360 And I think that the way that, that that you guys started 124 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,200 working on the show together was, I was like, well, you're 125 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,040 both in Europe, you should probably just do the pilot 126 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,560 together, 'cause this is hard. I'm pretty sure that that was 127 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,160 that that that I said something to that extent. 128 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,000 You guys were like, OK, you know why not? 129 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,360 Yeah, I think, I think that was basically it was just like, why, 130 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:24,760 why? Why did you get like these 131 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,960 Europeans work together. Yeah. 132 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,120 But yeah, I also remember that call. 133 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,160 I remember I was like in my kitchen like where I used to be 134 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,600 living and and you know Brian and I afterwards like had 135 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,000 another chat and then got to know each other. 136 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,600 And then we only actually met in person like two or three months 137 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,960 later actually in February of the following year at at the 138 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Let's Talk in Berlin. And like you know for me that 139 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,720 that that whole period was such a transitionary period out. 140 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,280 I'd been working in sort of web design and product development, 141 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,240 web product development before that e-commerce and it was such 142 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,680 a whole new world. And I remember Brian, I don't 143 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,840 know if you remember this but you know we we went to this 144 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,720 dinner. I don't I don't think it was 145 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,720 let's talk I I I don't think it was at inside Bitcoin's Berlin. 146 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,080 I think it was at the Amsterdam conference in 2014 and we went 147 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,760 to this dinner and there were all these sort of like VC types 148 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,640 and it was organized by Matt Rozak and Brock. 149 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Pier No, that was in Berlin. Folks from the That was in 150 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:25,680 Berlin, right? So yeah. 151 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,040 Yeah, it was Brock Pierce and Matt Rozak organized at dinner. 152 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Exactly, Yeah. Yeah. 153 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,520 And like Blockchain ventures guys were sitting next to us and 154 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,039 like at some point like I remember you looked at me, you 155 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:41,280 said OK Seb from now on from this point forward we're we're 156 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,840 now Co founders because I think before that we had sort of you 157 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,640 know this is, this is sort of being a a bit of a hobby and 158 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,480 kind of a thing that we did on the side. 159 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,800 But then at that point you're like, OK, this is something that 160 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,280 we're really going to pursue because you know, this is like 161 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,600 you know, basically Bitcoin and blockchain are are going to 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,080 change the world. And like we want to be part of 163 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,520 this and and and we want to sort of you know, project ourselves 164 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,760 as entrepreneurs in this space and not just hobbyists. 165 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,640 And and I remember that was like an importance of, you know, mind 166 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,480 shift for me from that point on like OK, now you know I'm 167 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,800 working in blockchain full time and and and that's sort of what 168 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,520 happened from that point on. Yeah, yeah. 169 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,560 And it was also very good. I think like combination to us 170 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:22,120 together 'cause you, you were very good at also at the whole, 171 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,960 like website, figuring out the whole like technique, all of 172 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,480 this sort of, you know, how to actually produce a podcast, put 173 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,080 it out, the audio, all of these things that was like very 174 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,120 helpless with. So there's like, I think we were 175 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,640 like a great, you know, I was more like interested in the 176 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,000 reading the white papers and preparing questions and stuff. 177 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,160 But like, I think we were like a great sort of, yeah, great 178 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,920 complementary skill set. So I think that, you know, 179 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,360 allowed us to, you know, to to produce this thing consistently 180 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,000 and then of course we started having more hosts, right? 181 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,920 I think Maher joined as the third host and I think it was 182 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,920 like 2015. Actually, so this is my first 183 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:04,440 trivia. Question. 184 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,920 OK, so. I've got some trivia questions 185 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,040 here and then we'll start bringing in the guests here. 186 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,960 So the first, the first chart of the question is, is for all of 187 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,000 the all the Co hosts actually. So when when did Maher first 188 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,680 join what was Maher's first episode? 189 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:24,840 And maybe you know Maher, you're also, yeah, open to welcome to 190 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,720 to answer this question. But I don't know if you 191 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,880 remember, but yeah, maybe, Brian, maybe you remember. 192 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:31,680 I don't remember the first episode. 193 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:36,920 I think it was like 2015 that he joined, if I remember correctly, 194 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,280 but I don't remember what it was so. 195 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,600 It was episode 97. It was with Paul Stork. 196 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,640 Oh, right, the the the drive chain stuff. 197 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,040 Or that's Yeah. Drive chains. 198 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:49,440 Truth. Color Truth. 199 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,360 Right. Background background truth 200 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,200 coin. Yeah. 201 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,480 And and Sunny, Do you remember your first episode? 202 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,800 OK. Does anyone else remember? 203 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:02,440 I didn't remember. I remember it in Maharis, but I 204 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,080 didn't remember yours or Felaga's. 205 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:10,280 I I I'll say it, I I'm pretty sure it was Charles Hoskinson. 206 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:17,560 I wish I had AI, wish I had a bell I. 207 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,040 I think Brian knew I was like, really into a theorem classic at 208 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,000 the time. And so then he like, asked me 209 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,320 like, hey, do you want to do this one with Charles Hoskinson? 210 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,040 I think that's how I was, how I did my first episode. 211 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:33,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 212 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:39,880 Sonia and I met, so I was working at Tenement in 2017 and 213 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:45,960 then we had this retreat in the summer of 2017 in Canada. 214 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,960 And then Sunny was like, I don't know, like 19 at a time or 215 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,560 something, something like that, you know? 216 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,400 That was my next question. How old was Sunny when he first 217 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,400 joined an epicenter? Correct answer. 218 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,600 Was not old enough to drink? Yeah. 219 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,440 He pens Where? Yeah, in Canada, Yeah. 220 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,200 And Federica, what? Do you remember your first 221 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,440 episode? I was going to look at that now, 222 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,600 but I didn't. I think it's coin fun and I 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,600 think it was in 2018. And it's also super funny 224 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,520 because I, Brian and I, we had actually known each other for a 225 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:28,360 while and we had worked from the same office the East Dev office 226 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,000 in Berlin for a while and then we actually started a Co working 227 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,880 space together full node in Berlin in 2017 and but the way 228 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,360 the the way I actually got on the podcast the first time is 229 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,600 when I met Meher at a dinner and she said oh you should join 230 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,640 Epicenter. Yeah, yeah. 231 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,360 Yeah, I think it had sort of come up as an idea and we had 232 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,480 discussed it and then at some point I think Meher was like 233 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,400 asked you and then yeah, I was super happy that that worked out 234 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,240 and that, you know, become a key, invaluable host and part of 235 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,880 the show, so. Yeah, and it's such a pleasure. 236 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,920 And yeah, Felix isn't here yet, but his his first one was with 237 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,360 Dan Finlay of Metamask. He joined a bit later in in 2022 238 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,280 but hopefully he'll join the live stream and there's just a 239 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,480 bit. But yeah, let's get some of, 240 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,720 we've got some people here in the in the green room that we 241 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,920 wanted to bring on. So yeah, who, who's, who's on 242 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,880 1st? I think Trent. 243 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,760 I think Trent is first. Yeah, right. 244 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,360 All right, let's bring him in. Hey, Trent. 245 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,360 Great to be here. Hey, how you doing? 246 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,120 I'm good. And first of all, 247 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,400 congratulations. 10 years. It's hard to believe. 248 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,800 Wow. I I was. 249 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,040 I loved hearing these stories already from what you guys are 250 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,640 sharing. You know, a lot of Berlin 251 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,960 things. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 252 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,680 I mean, I think Trent was also, you know, one of the first 253 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,200 people right in in Bitcoin in Berlin and started, you know, a 254 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:08,160 whole sequence of Stardust was ascribe the first one or? 255 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,800 Yeah, it was Ascribe which pivoted to Big Genie B, which 256 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,160 pivoted to Ocean. So I've been at Ocean for six 257 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,680 years I guess, Tom. Yeah, and Ascribe, a lot of 258 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:22,120 people will not know Ascribe, but Ascribe was basically doing 259 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:27,520 something like NFDS right on on the Bitcoin blockchain. 260 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,880 So they were basically, you know, taking these artworks and 261 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,240 sort of, you know, tracking the ownership of these artworks on 262 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:37,760 chain. And I remember having lots of 263 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,000 discussions there that's always like, does this make sense 264 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,240 because like I mean you know, sort of the image is there 265 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,240 anyway and anyone can copy it. So you can't really protect 266 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,240 that. Make sense? 267 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,000 Ownership. And I was always like, at the 268 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,520 one hand I thought was very cool. 269 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,400 The other hand I'm like, does it really make sense? 270 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,920 And then of course, you know, NFTS became absolutely massive. 271 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,720 But I think that was really the 1st, the first project that and 272 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,200 you guys were doing cool things like working with, you know, 273 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,120 interesting artists and galleries and you also like you 274 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,400 know, way ahead of of your time with that. 275 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,600 Project. Yeah, it was really fun. 276 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,640 I mean, you know, we had these interactions, but you know, we 277 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,320 were too relieved for the money side of things. 278 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,760 So we had to pivot. And interestingly, you know, 279 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,600 like NFTS took off in Bitcoin, what, a year and a half ago. 280 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,600 And you know, now they've been spreading the mechanism of your 281 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,960 C20. It's sort of not much different 282 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:37,880 than a hash on on the output transaction and it's sort of, 283 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,720 you know, taking advantage of the witness stuff. 284 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,000 But then people took the idea and dumped it into the other EVM 285 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,080 chains for basically lower transaction fees, and it's been 286 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,360 spreading. It's called inscriptions, right? 287 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,480 If you guys are following this, it's hilarious. 288 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,320 And there's big complaints about Dust and all the other chains 289 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,040 and you know, breaking chains 1 by 1 every week it seems. 290 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,080 But it's actually fascinating because BRC 20 is actually very 291 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,480 similar to the Spill Protocol we developed back in the day. 292 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,520 And you know, for us it's like we're really happy that NFTS 293 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,720 finally took off. Maybe it wasn't us, but you 294 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,960 know, we're we're still playing in Blockchain and Village, so 295 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,680 it's great to see. Yeah, absolutely. 296 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,160 And then I think you've also been on the show a whole bunch 297 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,560 of times, though. I think we did a scribe. 298 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,840 So I guess we did all of the things, you know, we did a 299 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,640 scribe, the 20 B Ocean, I think several ocean episodes maybe, 300 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520 and yeah. Yeah, definitely. 301 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,480 I remember probably 1 funny one. It was consensus 2017. 302 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,560 I had just come off stage and I had a an interview lined up with 303 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,600 Sebastian and I'm. I randomly met Fred Ursa. 304 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,680 I'm right at the tail end of my talk and he's like Trent, we 305 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,680 need to talk Co founder of Coinbase. 306 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,080 Right. And I'm like, OK, I'm going off 307 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:49,480 to do an interview with Epicenter. 308 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,880 You want to join me? Because I knew I had already 309 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,360 been writing about decentralized data markets and that interview 310 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,960 was going to be partly on that. So. 311 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,320 So I basically hijacked Sebastian with with a friend. 312 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,760 I remember this. I I, yeah, I remember. 313 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,280 I remember you came on and like I think already, you know, I, I, 314 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,359 I was sort of on edge, 'cause it was like the first time I did an 315 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,560 episode solo cause like usually, you know, it's always 2 hosts, 316 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,040 right? And so in in the early days, 317 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,440 like when I do an episode solo, I always just like be a little 318 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,520 bit self-conscious about it and then and then you bring on this 319 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,599 other person randomly. Right. 320 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:29,280 And I was like, OK, but yeah, it up really, really good. 321 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,040 Yeah, it was a really lively discussion for its ball of 322 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,400 energy. So it was really fun. 323 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:35,920 Yeah. So actually this is sort of 324 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,880 related to the to the next trivia question here, which is 325 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,720 who is who have been our most frequent guests. 326 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,600 I think it's italic. How many times has he been on? 327 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,840 Five times. I mean, Harris says no. 328 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:52,920 I mean Harris says no. Who? 329 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,400 Who's our most written guest? Trend. 330 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Really. Wow. 331 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,960 I mean, both could be true. Anybody else? 332 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,640 Any other guesses? Martin's also been on a bunch of 333 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,920 times. He has. 334 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,360 I'm going to throw in a guess. I don't know if it's right, but 335 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:14,760 maybe goon. I think. 336 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,240 We so, so actually a lot of these answers are true. 337 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,760 So Vitalik has been on six times, Goon has also been on six 338 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,400 times and this is this Trent, this is your sixth time as well. 339 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,080 So you're a good company and I mean not excluding of course, 340 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:40,280 although you know she was more of a of a host at sometimes. 341 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,040 But Shawn Jones who was a frequent contributor to the show 342 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,720 in the early days who would come on to talk about you know 343 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,320 regulation and then shifting it. Regulatory landscape. 344 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,040 Yeah. And then. 345 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,560 But yeah Martin Martin's been on, Martin's been on three 346 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,600 times, I mean as a guess, I don't know, maybe as a host. 347 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,880 Also he's been on as a host once or twice before this before this 348 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,440 call, I was reviewing some episodes and the early episodes 349 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,600 from Guen were on on consensus and really fun. 350 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,800 I always loved those. But then there was the one he 351 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,600 had with with Vlad on the worries about the Dow. 352 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,360 This was before the Dow hacked, after the Dow hit on every 353 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:19,800 million, but before the Dow hacked. 354 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,480 So that was a really pivotal episode, a really fun one. 355 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:23,920 All right. Yeah. 356 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,920 And that episode, actually, there's also some, like, funny, 357 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,120 Yeah, how that turned out a funny story around that. 358 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:36,280 So, you know, the ACC published this paper, right? 359 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,720 The first thing they published on Crypto, which was basically 360 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,160 the Dow, is the security. And and they cited that podcast 361 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,320 we did with Goon and Clad Sam for in that in that paper as 362 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,800 evidence that it was security because they were basically 363 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,000 talking about how, you know it's kind of centralized and you have 364 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,720 these curators and they have this kind of control. 365 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,120 And yeah, it's funny how it does ended up being, you know, cited 366 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,400 by the SEC as a. The US government launches 367 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,720 Epicenter. Yeah. 368 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,080 So wow, I I remember. Actually, the the week that the 369 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,160 Dow Hawk was going down, I actually was in Ukraine, not 370 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,360 Berlin at the time. And Vlad was there, it was. 371 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,080 And so him and I were sitting like watching it and like he was 372 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,040 having to run away to help, you know, fix things as well. 373 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,560 And then at the same time it was the same week as a Bitcoin 374 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,320 happening. So there was, I forget the name, 375 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,960 but it was one of the Bitcoin Max, you guys. 376 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,600 Really interesting dude and you know he was really excited with 377 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,360 the habiting. But there's also this Dow and 378 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:36,360 you know from him it was a bit of schadenfreude as well. 379 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,440 But overall a highly interesting week. 380 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320 That week, you know, habiting was 10% of the stuff. 381 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,360 The hack was the big thing, but also the the outcome. 382 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,680 Ethereum plastic was already mentioned. 383 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,840 All this, right. A lot of really interesting 384 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,280 things and that was really sort of when Ethereum started to grow 385 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,000 up in a good way, right? You've got to have trial by fire 386 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 to really be successful. So it's, I think it's really 387 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,320 cool how the community came through. 388 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,360 Adam, I wanted to ask you as well, like, I mean like in your, 389 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,800 in your podcast journey, you know, what has been the most 390 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,280 significant or transformative change that you've seen in the 391 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,200 last, like 11 years of of doing crypto podcasts? 392 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,520 The biggest one is definitely the move to tokens. 393 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,880 If you remember back in, you know when when you guys were 394 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,440 just getting started. This was right after Master Coin 395 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,680 had come out with the first meta token layer, which was off and 396 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,560 it was right before I think Counterparty had come out. 397 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,000 So these are both metal layers for tokens on top of Bitcoin. 398 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,160 And before that the norm was if you want to create a token, you 399 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,200 need to figure out miners, you need to figure out distribution. 400 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,160 And there was just all this complexity and infrastructure 401 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,800 that went along with it. And after that it was not the 402 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,400 case. It was different economics that 403 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,960 that unlocked a lot of stuff. So that was a really significant 404 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,840 one. One of my favorite, one of my 405 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,400 favorite things that I did there was for a couple of years we ran 406 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,360 it as a full kind of news desk and, you know, did investigative 407 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,000 journalism and stuff like that. And I remember in the run up to 408 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,640 the final collapse of Mount Gox, I spent I think in a very late 409 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,200 evening working with Charlie Shrem and Napoleon. 410 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,640 Can't remember his last name, but basically ripping through 411 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,800 all of the documentation around Mount Cox and trying to figure 412 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,640 out what it all meant. You know, in kind of the the, I 413 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,680 think it was a few weeks before the thing actually fully 414 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,360 collapsed because there had been all sorts of rumors circulating 415 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,600 and stuff like that or a bunch of things like that. 416 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,240 You know that just like those early days, there's something so 417 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,120 fundamentally fun and interesting to me about doing 418 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,920 journalism in areas of really advanced technology that nobody 419 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,040 understands. And like, that's true about 420 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,200 technology generally. But when you're talking about 421 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,560 something like crypto, you're really talking about really 422 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,680 complex, you know, like multifaceted group dynamics and, 423 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,640 you know, leaderless systems, right? 424 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,400 Like leaderless systems are just wild things. 425 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,600 And so it's again, like, yeah, I mean, like, even outside of just 426 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,760 crypto, like, that's probably some of the most fun 427 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,360 journalistic experiences that I've had is just kind of trying 428 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,520 to run that stuff down and figure out what's real and 429 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,280 what's not because it's so hard to tell. 430 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,080 Yeah. And the and the token stuff that 431 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,880 you guys were doing really early on last topic like I I've told 432 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,280 that story. I've talked about that with 433 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:28,720 people like so many times recently. 434 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,480 I mean because like there there's this new, I mean I guess 435 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,680 it is starting to become more productized like this idea of 436 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:40,840 providing some sort of a token or NFT for like doing some kind 437 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,480 of action. So it could be like interacting 438 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,800 with a brand or listening to a podcast or something like that. 439 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,320 It was like you know, lots of products kind of entering the 440 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,960 market space that that do sort of similar things. 441 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,280 And you know, I always think back to like this LTV coin and 442 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,680 this magic word that we used to have on the podcast, like our 443 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,800 brand, you probably remember this. 444 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,160 But like we, we used to do this magic word at every episode. 445 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,440 So we'd say like OK, today's magic word is I don't know, 446 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,760 Pickles or whatever, like not Pickles but miners or like 447 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,320 Bitcoin or you know transaction fees or whatever. 448 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,720 And then you know if you listen to the episode you you take that 449 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,840 magic word, pop it into the less topic one website and then you'd 450 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,400 get some tokens as like proof of listenership. 451 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,440 And like this is such AI mean this was in 2014 and this was 452 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,840 such a forward thinking idea and I think maybe it was just too 453 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,560 early you know for for for how how the market was evolving but 454 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,880 like. One of the one of the things, 455 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,560 very divisive, yeah, one of the things that I've like for 456 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,360 better, so I'm super experimental as you guys know, 457 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,240 right. Like we did all kinds of stuff 458 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,720 that was just absolutely ridiculous. 459 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,000 Like we built a whole token powered content management 460 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,400 platform, right, And content like expression platform that 461 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,760 had tokens baked into it at kind of a base level in 2014. 462 00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,960 And so like that was so fun to do. 463 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,680 But the the thing about it that I think is challenging around 464 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,800 all this stuff is that there was this really brief period of time 465 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,520 where all of this stuff was possible. 466 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,480 But before it became obvious that there was so much money 467 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,880 attached to it and there was so much ability to do that. 468 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,160 And you know we gave away that token explicitly because I was 469 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,480 concerned that later on it would be something that would be used 470 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,360 against us. And so again, like our token had 471 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,000 an end of life in 2017 where it was retired and changed out for 472 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,480 another token. Like none of, like no projects 473 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,280 do any of this stuff even today. So no, it's again like the the 474 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,520 greatest privilege that I I had in kind of all of this was being 475 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,040 in a position where not only could I explore my ideas, but I 476 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,160 could do so at scale with other content creators and with a 477 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,560 community of a couple 10s of thousands of people, you know, 478 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,280 at a time before the the money came in and just muddied the 479 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:50,520 water. There's nothing wrong with the 480 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,080 money, but it does complicate things in ways that they just 481 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,000 weren't complicated. When we were working on stuff, 482 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,600 our problems were that we were too early. 483 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,080 But everything else, I'm pretty pretty happy with how we got 484 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,400 right. Yeah, yeah, I know. 485 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,280 It's, yeah, it's interesting how the tokens changed everything. 486 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,120 Like I I mean I remember like you know being very involved in 487 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:13,920 Ethereum early on and and I was just like OK, but you so you're 488 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,800 going to build these apps on Ethereum and at the same time 489 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,400 you have all these you know issues with user experience and 490 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,960 scalability and all that. And no one's like this is going 491 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,680 to take forever until you're actually going to be able to 492 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,160 build sort of consumer grade applications on that. 493 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,880 And of course that's true, right. 494 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,480 We still basically even today right, just sort of on the verge 495 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,240 of being able to do that. But of course, what I totally 496 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:46,000 did not see, and I I think hardly anybody saw at the time, 497 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,720 was how tokens just kind of accrue so much value even when 498 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,320 there's little usage and the app isn't really there. 499 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,040 And that it can then, you know, basically keep projects funded 500 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,800 for years and years, building all kinds of stuff like before 501 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,720 there's really a product market fit. 502 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,440 And I think that's of course, for Ethereum, it was absolutely 503 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,400 crucial, right? Otherwise this Ethereum would 504 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,160 have died, right? Or, yeah, wouldn't have made it. 505 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,280 And yeah, I think that was super interesting. 506 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,720 It's a blessing and a curse right? 507 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,680 It it's a blessing in that if you're a visionary founder who 508 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,840 really has something to build out it means that you have a bit 509 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,280 more time to get product market fit before you run out of cash. 510 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,760 And the the curse is that you have a bit more time which means 511 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,400 that you might not have that sense of urgency, right. 512 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,080 And the way to to to resolve that is simply work. 513 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,520 Strive really hard to maintain that sense of urgency even 514 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,040 though you have the cash, right. And you know, if you're a start 515 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,560 up founder, I mean you guys all know this too. 516 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,880 Cash is K right? There's usually a harrowing 517 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,040 point in the time of the startup where it's really, really tough 518 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,280 to to get through. So tokens actually really help 519 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,880 to to get you past that, right. And the good news is, you know, 520 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,440 maybe it took a few years from the time of the ICOS to the 521 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,400 stuff that got built. But think about it from 2017 522 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,040 until 20/20/2022. Now a lot of the, the really 523 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,680 visionary stuff did get built, right that took a lot of 524 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,360 infrastructure building and took it for years. 525 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,640 But that happened because of, you know, there was enough 526 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,640 funding that came and there was enough runaway and road map and 527 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,360 it happened and then of course there was all the scams and 528 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,480 whatnot, but a lot of really great stuff to get built 529 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,240 precisely because of the token funding. 530 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,080 Yeah. And and of course you also have 531 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,200 the situation right, that if you have a good enough story and the 532 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,240 token gets enough value, you can really keep this thing going of 533 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,920 like having something you're working on that actually doesn't 534 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,320 have any traction, any usage for like years and years and years, 535 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,000 right. And even today, right, we still 536 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:51,520 have projects that are like you know top ten, top 20 assets with 537 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,800 billions and billions of market cap that basically have you know 538 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,080 zero usage. How many devs does light light 539 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,120 chain Litecoin have now? Is it happening? 540 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,360 So it's amazing. Well, I'm surprised some people 541 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,040 haven't hijacked that yet. I think that we learned a couple 542 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,040 of things from it all, which is 1. 543 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,600 Being early is really, really valuable because anything that 544 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,840 comes after the early, it's the earliest success point has to 545 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,280 compete with all of the other things that want to displace it. 546 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920 And that's just in practice really, really, really hard to 547 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,160 do. The other thing is that the the 548 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,400 one of the challenges with the money is that and this was 549 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,800 especially true early on, I think it's a little less true 550 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,240 today although not entirely true, is that the value of what 551 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,960 was raised appreciated so quickly that it made it so that 552 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,000 people who were building stuff, yes they could take their time 553 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,680 but they could also just do nothing. 554 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,320 And that was fine too as far as like the deal that they had made 555 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,000 with people. And there are many early 556 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,240 projects that fall into that bucket. 557 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,040 And again like the I was involved with some of the the 558 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,920 early Etherium stuff and wound up getting kicked out of the the 559 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,720 the early Skype group chats because when we were talking 560 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,840 about the pre mine and stuff like that right. 561 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,200 The founder allocations and stuff. 562 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,600 I was like guys this is just a bad idea like you're you're 563 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,560 creating centralized problems stuff like that. 564 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,720 Not well received. Exited from all of that. 565 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,320 So I mean like, you know, like. I think for all the good that 566 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,440 was done by the funding mechanism, early on we thought 567 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,680 about it as crowdfunding. We thought about it as a pure 568 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,840 analogue to taking a crowdfunding campaign which has 569 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,840 this indefinite period of time after you funded the thing, 570 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,400 before you actually have something that is a thing. 571 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,880 And sometimes people just needed to, you know, sell that because 572 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,720 they no longer were in a position where they could have 573 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,600 it. Sometimes people miss the 574 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,760 campaign, and so adding tokens made a lot of sense there. 575 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,360 But the money, when the money just stacks up so, so high, just 576 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,320 changes the incentive structure. And again, for every project 577 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,960 that's out there that, you know, really deliver on something that 578 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600 was interesting, I would argue that there's probably 100 579 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,960 projects out there that just took the money and did nothing, 580 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,200 whether through, you know, malicious intent, naivete or or 581 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,640 whatever, like the hit rate for that relative to money. 582 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,000 I would constitute, I would consider almost all of it to be 583 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320 malinvestment that we just got lucky on a few times. 584 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,480 So I don't know, man, the years have really made me quite jaded 585 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,400 as far as just kind of the incentive structure as it as it 586 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,720 all goes. But I am happy overall with kind 587 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,000 of the way that the things have gone and the fact that it's 588 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,440 still around. Again, there were lots of 589 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,040 scenarios where this got much more aggressive, much faster, 590 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,240 and none of those really manifested much to more 591 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,040 pleasure. So I know you guys have many 592 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,480 guests and with that I will say thanks for having me on here and 593 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,160 thanks for having me on so many Epicenter episodes. 594 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,840 I I I love this show. I listen to it all the time and 595 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,160 it's really great to be a part of it and Congrats again on on 596 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,280 your on your anniversary. Thank you, Trent. 597 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,520 Yeah, and looking forward to many more episodes with you, 598 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,360 Trent. Absolutely. 599 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,480 And we also have someone new on Sebastian from Harper, just 600 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,800 joined. Hi, Sebastian. 601 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,560 Hey, for Rick and team and I guess happy birthday everyone. 602 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:11,520 And yeah, thank you for being my personal educator on this 603 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,600 journey for almost 10 years. It's been invaluable. 604 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,840 You know, I just thought it's so weird because podcasts exist in 605 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,280 all spaces, right? But in all spaces you also have 606 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,520 this competitor called universities nowadays. 607 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,160 Maybe there's some university stuff out there, but back when I 608 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,400 joined, they were winning universities. 609 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,560 There was like Epicenter was the only way we could learn about 610 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,040 crypto and not get scammed. Like the second part was kind of 611 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,800 important. So yeah, that's that's been 612 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,320 pretty valuable from at least. When did you start listening to 613 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,840 the shows up? Actually, for me it's I I was 614 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,280 thinking about it before. It was hard. 615 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,520 It was kind of hard to tell because like I was talking to 616 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,200 Maher a lot, who, you know, was, I would say, personally 617 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160 responsible for dragging me into this Crypto Rabbits hole. 618 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,040 And then, yeah, Meher Meher was telling me about this Epicenter 619 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,640 thing. And I think it was in late 2014 620 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,280 that became I I did kind of like weekly shopping, and my weekly 621 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,120 shopping took exactly 2 hours, which wasn't exactly the time to 622 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,440 listen to two episodes. So that was good because I had 623 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,960 quite some catching up to do. And yeah, that was that was when 624 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,520 I started. That's a very long weekly shop. 625 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,560 Oh yeah, yeah. That's happens when you live in 626 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,320 a countryside. Yeah. 627 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,520 Maybe it was also two hours, because that's simply how long 628 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,840 it took to listen to two episodes. 629 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,000 Mahar, how How did you guys know each other? 630 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,760 I didn't realize that there was Mahar was the connection. 631 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,680 Yeah, he was doing a PhD in Basel. 632 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,920 Exactly. Got it. 633 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,360 It was, it was the Basel connection, the desert 634 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:02,000 connection, and yeah, all the all the funny ideas that that 635 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,960 mirror had, that many people had back in the days. 636 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,680 And it all sounded kind of crazy, right? 637 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,320 There was Bitcoin and there was all these crazy ideas. 638 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,920 And I also remember like, I think Mirror was the first 639 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,400 person who had witnessed to be, like properly obsessed with 640 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,040 something. And the first thing that I saw 641 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Mirror being obsessed with was actually Maker. 642 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,360 And like, there was this time when mayor would join all these 643 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,199 calls and listen in about like what's going on at Maker and 644 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,480 like nobody could really find out what was going on because 645 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,280 Erjan was was a bit obscure. It still is very obscure. 646 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,840 Yeah. Yeah, a few days ago Sebastian 647 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,719 and I were talking about how the LLMS would have would struggle 648 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,679 at understanding the maker code base. 649 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,400 Make sure our bit code bases are the hardest for LMS. 650 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,960 That's quite clean. But so it's for humans, right? 651 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,440 So maybe, maybe you know, LLMS are the way to make these these 652 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,160 kind of very funny code bases available to some other minds 653 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,240 except for the handful of people who coded it. 654 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,280 So I mean you mentioned the episode that you like that that 655 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,640 that was the first episode you listened to I guess like this 656 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,120 this, this is interesting though I wanna ask like here and 657 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,160 Frederica as well what are like what's your like most memorable 658 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,960 episode that you listened to before you joined as a host? 659 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,840 For me, I I think it was like in 2017 like the One with Jimmy 660 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,400 song and it just like explained like Scaling Wars 101. 661 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,360 I think that was just like so helpful to just be like, OK, 662 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,160 here's like the you know anyone who needed like understanding 663 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,840 scaling wars. I just sent them that that 664 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,280 episode because it's like, OK, so one hour, just like, 665 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,680 obviously, you know, somewhat route, pretty biased view, but 666 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,800 it was a good explanation of scaling wars. 667 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:52,960 I hate listening to podcasts. Segue. 668 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,360 You had it in fast, guys. I've never listened to NFP 669 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,360 Central podcast. I. 670 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,480 I can't believe you waited 10 years together. 671 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,280 Maybe. It's good you didn't say that 672 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,320 earlier, Mayor. I'm. 673 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,040 Looking for an opportunity to fit it in? 674 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,880 I go in the white paper. Now I go in the code base. 675 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,560 Last popular episode I remember hearing is a medical one, but 676 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,560 I've never heard epicenter. Like, yeah. 677 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,960 No, you were listening to Epicenter like before you before 678 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,440 you joined us. Now I think so. 679 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,800 That's what he told you, That's when. 680 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,000 He told us. I mean, maybe I might have 681 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,280 scouted like Epicenter. OK, you know, what's up or 682 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,760 something. But, you know, hi, Yeah. 683 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,240 I remember. The Jingle, That place in the 684 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,560 beginning, because you don't hear that as a host recording 685 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,360 it, what do you recognize it may have? 686 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,760 So Speaking of jingles, Speaking of jingles, this, this, this 687 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,200 will lead lead us to like the next trivia question here. 688 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:23,640 Does anybody remember the title of the pilot episode? 689 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,160 I remember you were called Epicenter Bitcoin at the time. 690 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,160 This is true. This is true. 691 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,720 As I get constantly reminded by every time I go to a Bitcoin 692 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,880 conference like people like you know I still like Epicenter but 693 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,880 you know you got sold out by dropping Bitcoin from and I have 694 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,440 no our Twitter handle still says BTC in it. 695 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,120 So you know. So just just one thing here. 696 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:55,320 So I have here the the first message that Maher sent us and 697 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,840 it was like, hi, Brian and Ceros, yeah, I love your show in 698 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,520 interviewing style. So you were listening? 699 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,720 Or just tailoring himself to get a job. 700 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,440 No, he was proposing himself as a. 701 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,480 So you were working on this Hyperledger. 702 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,960 We're involved in this project called Hyperledger, which has 703 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,240 nothing to do with the later thing called Hyperledger that 704 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,320 ended up, you know, Santa Cruz blockchain stuff. 705 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,800 And it was some sort of, I mean here you'll be able to describe 706 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,440 it more, but you're you're basically proposing us to do an 707 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,320 episode about this. And yeah, I think that was like 708 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,600 some point in 2015. Well, that would have gone over 709 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,400 better than. Well, I've never listened to 710 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,080 your show before, but I'd like and I hate podcasts, but I'd 711 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,800 like to go on and talk about the project I'm working on. 712 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,840 So good job, good job. That's an excellent approach. 713 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,320 So does anybody remember the the name of the first the pilot 714 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,040 episode? No, sorry. 715 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,920 Why don't Why don't we just play it then? 716 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,640 This is Epicenter Bitcoin, a weekly podcast about Bitcoin and 717 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,320 cryptocurrencies. The pilot episode recorded 718 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,040 December 20th, 2013 Regulation and the Future of Bitcoin. 719 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,520 This episode of Epicenter Bitcoin has brought you in 720 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,160 collaboration with the Let's Talk Bitcoin Podcast. 721 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,520 Who did that intro? That. 722 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,720 That that was my attempt at a radio voice. 723 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,240 Oh wow, I always recognized you. Yeah, I didn't recognize you. 724 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,120 Yeah, I I think you've. Read all episodes like that now. 725 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,640 Yeah, that's right. That was, that was the theme 726 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,360 music for the first couple of episodes. 727 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,880 Yeah, I think. I think. 728 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,600 I think when I go back and listen to myself from from back 729 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,400 then I I think, I think my, my. Like, Canadian accents used to 730 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,280 be a much, much stronger for some reason. 731 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,560 But yeah, that was the first episode. 732 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:17,480 The, the, the regulation of the future of Bitcoin, I have a. 733 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,560 Semi trivia question here. So at some point you just 734 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,200 started doing doing ads in the show. 735 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:27,440 But these ads are typically not very, you know, not not very 736 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,840 crypto scammy ads like. What were the worst? 737 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,200 Applicants that you got for. Like. 738 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,840 Doing ads on the show. I mean we got a lot of 739 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,120 applicants for doing ads on the show. 740 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,240 I mean like I I think during during the the ICO kind of like 741 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:50,400 period we we were getting a lot of queries to do ads on the show 742 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,640 are are very does anybody remember our some bug down who's 743 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,880 our who who does social you know our community and and and and 744 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,440 sales his commenting is like don't even ask but no but our 745 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,760 our first sponsor our first sponsor was Shapeshift and I 746 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,520 mean this was Shapeshift before Eric Voorhees was even like was 747 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:15,320 it I. I I. 748 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,920 Think as easy as putting on your slippers. 749 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,760 I I, I, I may I may maybe I'm wrong here but I think the first 750 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,640 sponsor was was fairly. That's right. 751 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:26,080 Sorry. Yeah. 752 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,400 Yeah, you you're right. So it it was fairly the first 753 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:29,240 one. What is fairly, Yeah. 754 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:35,160 Yeah, yeah, fairly was the. Prediction market that it was 755 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,720 like by Martin and Stefan, right? 756 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,720 Yeah, of course. You know, founds of Co founders. 757 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,080 There was Pre Gnosis. Yeah, there was pre gnosis, so. 758 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,280 Basically. They're going to centralized 759 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,200 site, yeah, as opposed to a protocol. 760 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,880 So the Gnosis connection goes way, way, way back then? 761 00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:00,800 Actually met Joe at at at a Bitcoin meet up in New York and 762 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,760 he and he was telling him about fairly and Joe said this sounds 763 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,360 cool why don't why don't you join consensus and build the 764 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,120 same thing on Ethereum that's that's not live yet but it's 765 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,160 going to be live soon and it's going to be awesome. 766 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,160 This is how Martin and Stefan became employees two and three 767 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,240 of consensus. And fairly is still running. 768 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,960 I'm looking on the site right now, it says it has like 32 769 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,880 Bitcoin of volume in the last 24 hours. 770 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,520 Yeah, it was so it at some point. 771 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, There you go. Yeah. 772 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,720 You guys never got the, the cloud miners were always the 773 00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:39,160 ones that that most got in my like that was that was the worst 774 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,040 advertisers, right, 'cause the cloud miners were almost always 775 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,240 scams because they'd just be like basically they would just 776 00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:47,760 run a Ponzi scheme. But then they would be like, no, 777 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,960 we're we're we're putting your money into buying hardware and 778 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,960 then now you're gonna get the sealed from the hardware. 779 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,360 I think eventually some of them came out that were better, but 780 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,160 the first couple of years when everybody wanted to do mining 781 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,200 that was like these were the people pre ICO who had money to 782 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,760 spend on marketing because they didn't actually have a product 783 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,800 most of the time behind it and everybody wanted it. 784 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,720 So that was my memory at the. First, yeah, I remember, I 785 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,280 remember getting some queries also like talking to some cloud 786 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,960 mining folks and I I think Brian you were like, no, this doesn't 787 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,200 make any sense. Yeah. 788 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,280 I mean the issue was even even when the cloud mining thing was 789 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,680 like honest or something that generally, you know, you know, 790 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,240 you'd basically pay some amount in, you know, dollars to then 791 00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:35,800 buy some amount of hash rate over some time like a year or 792 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,320 two years and stuff. And then if you sort of 793 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,080 calculate like how many bitcoins you got from that, you know, 794 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,120 generally you're always better off just like buying the Bitcoin 795 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,520 upfront instead of putting in this money to, you know, buy the 796 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,400 stream of Bitcoin over time. So it was always like this is 797 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,600 like under what there's there's always like no scenario in which 798 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,320 you that actually be better off doing this cloud mining thing, 799 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,440 but so somehow they could still like sell it. 800 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:02,880 Everybody. Wanted to do it. 801 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,360 That's why sometimes, yeah, I remember sometimes they say, 802 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:12,200 well you know, but you can, you know, you can sort of like maybe 803 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,240 just Billy through your company and say it's like cloud expenses 804 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,840 or and then you keep the big coin out of the company or you 805 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,080 know basically some kind of you know, scammy approaches that 806 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,720 maybe made it make sense. But yeah, so I think. 807 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:32,200 I remember for me like it wasn't the cloud mining, but I remember 808 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,240 one of my early exposures to Bitcoin was with like, you know, 809 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,760 21 or were they called 21 back then? 810 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,080 I think, yeah, they were like like pitching like, oh, here's 811 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,680 like this, like Raspberry pie that you're going to like plug 812 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,080 in and like your, you know, your toaster is going to be my toast 813 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,480 and everything, yeah. Your toaster was the craziest 814 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:49,240 thing. Yeah. 815 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,200 How many, How many hours a day does the average human use a 816 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,120 toaster? That was, that was one of my. 817 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,680 That was one of my first moments when I was like, starting to 818 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:05,880 challenge what I hear. And yet it didn't make sense 819 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,360 because there were all these very smart people, right? 820 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,840 And they all were like they they were speaking like very 821 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,000 eloquently. And I'm wondering how many 822 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,480 minutes I use a toaster in an average day. 823 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,280 But yeah, anyway, I think it's part of the from the education 824 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,560 journey. The water heater was always the 825 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,600 better path. Yeah, I like. 826 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,840 Water heaters. Yeah, well, one of the first 827 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,480 Bitcoin conferences I went to was in Amsterdam in like maybe 828 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,120 October 2013, like Vitalik was selling his Bitcoin magazine 829 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,760 there. And then we had, I met Adam back 830 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,680 at that conference. It was his first Bitcoin event 831 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,080 where the, I think he didn't have any Bitcoin at the time. 832 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,360 So he was sort of like watching from the sidelines but had 833 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,120 dinner with him and many Rosenfeld who's also been on the 834 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,560 show sometimes he was kind of the original Bitcoin guy in 835 00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:01,080 Israel and and during the dinner there two of them went on and on 836 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,720 and this like crazy tangents and and but I remember that was the 837 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,760 one thing Adam was talking a lot about that yeah like some point 838 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,760 Bitcoin mining economics is going to be that yeah you're 839 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,800 going to mine Bitcoin with your heating device at home and 840 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,160 things like that. Yeah I mean to to answer your 841 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,120 your your question Sebastian like the come to come back to 842 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,800 the sponsors. I I think one thing that we 843 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:33,040 always tried to to do is you know throughout the 10 years was 844 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,800 also always be very, very mindful of the sponsors we we 845 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,200 got on the show. And like you know you know even 846 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,480 in the beginning you know like Brian and I would would talk 847 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,200 quite a bit about like whether or not a sponsor was good for 848 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,320 the show if we were using, if we would use or recommend this 849 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,520 product. And and yeah I sometimes joke 850 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,920 about how like had we accepted all of the money that people 851 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,840 were trying to throw at us during the ICO period. 852 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,040 We probably would have made like quite a bit of money, you know, 853 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,880 but it just didn't feel right And and I think like it was the 854 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,000 right decision to like just be very, very careful with with 855 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,040 sponsors especially like in this space. 856 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,480 No, I mean, honestly, especially over such long time periods, I 857 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,880 think it you did an impressive job there at not selecting the 858 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,880 FTXS of the world, right? It hasn't always been obvious. 859 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,600 Let's also be honest about that, right? 860 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,800 Like the biggest, the the most painful ponzies were the ones 861 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,400 that were not obvious. Yeah, no kudos on that. 862 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,920 I mean, we did have one. We did have one. 863 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,200 That was like it was this guppies thing. 864 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,840 I don't remember this Brian. We we did this, this these ads. 865 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:42,880 I thought it's a thing that Stephen. 866 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,080 Gutman's dating app. And that's not an actual. 867 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:46,400 We didn't have them as a sponsor. 868 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:47,800 I think we had them as a we. Did have them. 869 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,280 Yes, we did have a really sponsor. 870 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,400 Yes. No, no, sorry, sorry, sorry. 871 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,160 No, it wasn't the guppies. No, no, no. 872 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,240 We did have the We had the guppies on, but we didn't 873 00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,880 release the episode. But we did this thing called 874 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,960 Gems, which was kind of like a social app, but it wasn't a 875 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,960 scam. But it just they were doing kind 876 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,200 of a sale ICO and it failed. Yeah. 877 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,720 It was not the IT was I mean, I. Think I still have some. 878 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,880 Kind of an interesting idea. So yeah, it was an interesting 879 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,520 idea. Guys, I know Adam has to dash. 880 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,560 Adam it is. It's been so lovely to be on for 881 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,360 this and. Yeah, and maybe one day we can 882 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:28,080 meet in person. That's. 883 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,440 A distinct possibility, guys. You're doing a great job. 884 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,040 Keep up the good work again. You know, like it's it's 885 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,880 important. I'm happy to see that you're 886 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,840 you're being so successful. So have a great next 10 years. 887 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,480 Thanks so much and thanks for your role in all of this. 888 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,960 Yeah, I'll see you in 10 years, so. 889 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,400 Cool. And we also have two new guests, 890 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,320 Griff and Left Terrace. Hang on, let me bring you guys 891 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:58,920 on. Hey, guys. 892 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,640 GMGM. Hey. 893 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,200 Wonderful to see you. Hey, hello. 894 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,640 As I'm going to head out now, there's people who are funding 895 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,560 public goods and wait, privacy and local software. 896 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,840 Before you go, I wanted to say something super juicy that I 897 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,160 don't know if you ever knew this and I I don't. 898 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,120 I don't know how left Harris is even going to feel about me 899 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,000 saying this. But back during the day, so 900 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,160 obviously left Harris and I were part of Slackett and and the Dow 901 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,400 and managed the Dow hack to the white hat group. 902 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:36,280 But but two of the top or sorry, there were there was the the top 903 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,600 person that was predicted to be the Dow hacker back in the day 904 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,400 was that we were told was actually you, Sebastian and 905 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,560 Maher and Andre Vilka back in the day. 906 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,480 This was these. You guys were the top suspects. 907 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,640 I bought that. My hair. 908 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,520 Yeah. They lost you. 909 00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:01,200 I didn't know you heard that. There was people accusing, there 910 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,440 was people accusing me of that and I was like guys I actually 911 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,720 wasted 5 ETH or like spamming the network on running this 912 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:10,560 thing. That Stephen tool was just 913 00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:14,320 sending this thing on this you need to like counter attack the 914 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,680 network and I wasted 5 precious ETH of it, which back then was 915 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,840 less money than it is nowadays, obviously. 916 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,720 So yeah, it was. A good cover story it. 917 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,400 Was a good cover story. Is it still a live hypothesis or 918 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,720 is it dead because we know the hacker voice. 919 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,440 Yeah, that's a good question. But when I first met Sebastian, 920 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,440 I I think this is what you asked me, right? 921 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:39,800 Like why? Why the heck would? 922 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,920 Yeah. When we met in in person in in 923 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,720 Frederick sign in in Berlin, he asked me. 924 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:51,760 So I some people said that I'm, you know the hacker was from 925 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,000 what was even the company name. The Liberty Labs. 926 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,040 Yes, yes, yes. From us back in the days, yeah, 927 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,520 yeah. I don't remember where the 928 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,560 theory came from, but there was a theory I want to say It was 929 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,760 like it was one of the exchanges. 930 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,320 They said that somehow some gas money was connected to Olidity 931 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,360 Labs. That's possible, but yeah, 932 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,440 that's funny. Actually, it's really funny. 933 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,920 Thanks for thanks for bringing it up. 934 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,240 But you're also in the company because Alexei was also the 935 00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,320 other suspect, right? Alexei Akunov, So. 936 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,200 I remember I've heard those theories before. 937 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,600 I never had Alexei being. No, I I I think Alexei was the 938 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,240 first to post about it on Reddit. 939 00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,880 Yeah, he'd he'd posted like something funny's going on, like 940 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,360 the contracts are being drained or something and. 941 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,440 Yeah. And he's like, you know, at the 942 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,320 time, like the amount of people who like knew the EVM well 943 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,200 enough to find it much smaller set than it is today. 944 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,200 And Alexei was definitely like in that set, so. 945 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:02,600 Awesome. Great. 946 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,960 Anyway, awesome to. To. 947 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,280 To bring up good stories. But. 948 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,520 But he has claim to fame, not the Dow hacker. 949 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,560 Not the Dow hacker, exactly, anyway. 950 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,920 Thank you so much for having me on and yeah, all the best for 951 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:18,680 everyone. Involved. 952 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,080 See you around. Thanks, Sebastian. 953 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:29,720 So after accusing him of us. No, it was, yeah, that that was 954 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:35,680 a very nice start in the in the conversation, very by the way, I 955 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:38,520 remember the first time I met Sebastian, it was like it was, 956 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,960 it was like we were at a conference and it was me, gory 957 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,160 and lefteris and we're all talking. 958 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:46,800 To him and. It was like, Oh my God. 959 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,640 We're talking to the Dow hacker. It's so awful. 960 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,560 Yeah, I do that. I I wouldn't have thought to be 961 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,360 Sebastian, to kind of be the person who kind of gives, gives 962 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,640 off like the Super villain vibe, but yeah. 963 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,320 Yeah, it wasn't there. So actually it wasn't the 964 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:07,400 Sebastian. It was. 965 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,400 And then there was no feeling kind of thing. 966 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:14,840 It was another younger guy from Paradigm Labs and it was 967 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:20,520 Polonius that suggested that I don't remember his name, but 968 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,760 particular guy who was talking to Stefan to all. 969 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,800 And yeah, but it was pretty fucked up. 970 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:35,160 Like it's been in in in the Cryptopians, the book that in 971 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:42,560 Shanghai after the hack, the guy that was suggested as being the 972 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,880 Dao Hager by Polonics was in in DAF country in Shanghai. 973 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,480 And he talked to me and I was like, Oh my God, I'm talking to 974 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,240 the guy that supposedly was a DAO hacker. 975 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,120 And he was saying, yeah, well, do you know the DAO hacker 976 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,120 probably also is very bad for what he did because he just got 977 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,000 into the situation. It was very difficult. 978 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,080 And for him, I was like, Oh my God, this team, it has to be 979 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,120 him. Look at how he's defending the 980 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,240 Dao Hager. But yeah, in the end it was all 981 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:09,480 just stuff. It's my even though it's it's 982 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,720 was mentioned before who is a Dow hugger. 983 00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:19,040 We just have this other theory that that Laura posted in the 984 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,640 book. But well it's not possible to 985 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,600 prove anything with 100% certainty, right. 986 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,480 So I guess we will always remain with this question. 987 00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:31,960 Yeah. When you guys mentioned Polonia 988 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,360 XI can see why. So because like the Dow hack 989 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:41,720 happened and the first thing, like when I came to know the DAO 990 00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:48,520 hack, I actually sold a large chunk of my ether on Polonia X. 991 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,480 So maybe it's like that that might have triggered them to 992 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,120 have such a hypothesis. Yeah, Yeah. 993 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,200 So the hypothesis was pretty simple, that they had taken a 994 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,000 huge short position that was being built over the days that 995 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:09,960 the hack was happening and that they executed it right after the 996 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,080 hack. But let's be honest, like this 997 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,080 is extremely weak evidence. And if I remember correctly, the 998 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,040 price movement, it was really time to sort. 999 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,360 I didn't know anything about trading back then, but now that 1000 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,920 I see how trading works, I mean, it just doubled in price in a 1001 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,840 week or so. So I guess it's a sort of 1002 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,320 paradise. So just from that saying that, 1003 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,280 OK, these guys must be, yeah, I don't think so. 1004 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,920 I know, I I like it better when the identity is a mystery. 1005 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,520 I feel like the Dow hacker is like, you know, it's on like 1006 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,560 Satoshi, like the Dow hacker. Like he's like core anons of 1007 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,200 crypto history. Like, it's just better for it to 1008 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,280 remain faceless. Well, the Dow hacker did prove 1009 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,760 that there's a distinction with like code. 1010 00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,040 Code is law and social consensus is is law. 1011 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:06,000 So important distinction. Yeah. 1012 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:10,000 Yeah, that's a very, very big contribution to the ecosystem. 1013 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,560 I mean, my Dow hack story, which is I was not, I was barely 1014 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,280 involved at at that time. But I I, you know, I was just 1015 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:24,600 really into Bitcoin at the time and I was at a hackathon that 1016 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,960 summer in, you know, 2016. And then I was telling my 1017 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,320 friend, I was like, hey, I heard about this like Ethereum thing. 1018 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,320 Like I heard you can like build applications and stuff on top of 1019 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,880 it. Like, you know, we should, we 1020 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,440 should check this out. I mean, because we were like 1021 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,040 bitcoiners only at that time. And then so you know at the 1022 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,320 tackathon, we open up Reddit and the entire like page is just 1023 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,920 talking about the Dow hack and like, oh, the world is burning 1024 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,600 like you have to fork the chain. And and we were like, yeah, this 1025 00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,080 community is crazy this like, yeah, what is this eat like this 1026 00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:57,600 is some bullshit. And so we like turned it off. 1027 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,480 And I I didn't look at Ethereum again for like another year. 1028 00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:04,080 Yeah, you you were saying before that you were an ETH. 1029 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,000 Classic guy. I was an ETH classic guy for a 1030 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,840 while. I you know, I like the code is 1031 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,760 law and all that. So yeah, my more the specific 1032 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,160 stance was that I think it was unethical for the Ethereum 1033 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,440 Foundation to like leverage its ownership of the Ethereum 1034 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,760 trademark to declare the fork to be the to be Ethereum. 1035 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,400 My my take was that the classic change should have kept the name 1036 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,080 Ethereum and the ticker and then the fork change should have a 1037 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,000 new name. Yeah, You know, I'm surprised 1038 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,560 that more things weren't built on it. 1039 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,200 They're in classic, like really sketchy things like a dark 1040 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,640 market or, you know, it's like all of a sudden you had this 1041 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,480 chain that's like, Oh yeah, hey, this is claimed. 1042 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,120 No one's going to mess with this, OK, Like, let's do illegal 1043 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,320 things like it never happened. I feel like crypto has in 1044 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,320 general this like really like nefarious outlook or people 1045 00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,560 think that it's so bad but the real builders. 1046 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:01,360 They really don't. Build bad things. 1047 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:02,920 I mean, there was a huge opportunity there. 1048 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,360 Yeah, exactly. That was part of my thesis on 1049 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,640 ETC. As well, but never panned out. 1050 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,400 Yeah, even even the, you know, like the the criminal smart 1051 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,240 contract paper, the assassination markets. 1052 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:22,800 All of these dystopian ideas that I've come across have 1053 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,760 actually never been built. And yes, it's it's an 1054 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,200 interesting observation about actually humanity that actually 1055 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,280 most of us are either trying to build interesting things or are 1056 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,560 just trying to scam and just make a little money and just 1057 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,960 switch off. None of us are trying to do like 1058 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,600 the really evil stuff. Like where are the Professor 1059 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,880 Moriartys of the world? Like there's a serious lack of 1060 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,680 Professor Moriartys of the world or the supervision. 1061 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,440 I I mean my thesis would be here also that you know if you wanted 1062 00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,960 to build like I don't know, dark market, I don't know 1063 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,640 assassination market or something like that, well 1064 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:10,040 privacy really has to be like completely impenetrable and and 1065 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,360 that's just not the case, right. And and then I think of course 1066 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,240 you also see, you just see how hard it is to build anything 1067 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,840 anonymously. And I mean Satoshi managed it, 1068 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,760 which is still like astonishing that that feels like. 1069 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:30,800 I mean obviously the intellectual achievement of 1070 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,880 Bitcoin is is like immense. But like him having having been 1071 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,560 able to do this without leaking his identity in any way is also 1072 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,360 just like incredible. And you know, I think people 1073 00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,440 have not even even when they tried, right. 1074 00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,280 Most of they fail, even things like that don't get the kind of 1075 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:54,280 attention that that Bitcoin did. So I still think in the end it 1076 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,120 will, It has to happen, right. We will have to see things like 1077 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,680 dark markets that are like fully decentralized and all that 1078 00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,240 stuff. But it's just, yeah, but you're 1079 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:04,640 right. I think it is surprising that it 1080 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,480 hasn't happened. So you're like it's down to 1081 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:12,360 logistics, complexity of staying anonymous, and if that is 1082 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,800 solved, we'll have a lot of super villains cop up. 1083 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,600 I mean, of course you of course you're absolutely right that 1084 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,680 like most people don't do this kind of thing, right. 1085 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,760 Most people want to build like these things and stuff like 1086 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,240 that. But obviously, I mean look at 1087 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,840 dark markets, right, Like they they exist, right, and they keep 1088 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,280 making new ones and stuff, right. 1089 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,360 So, but I guess, well, I mean if we put dark markets, I guess 1090 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,800 also like one of the main business models of dark markets 1091 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:41,240 seems to be the exit scam, right, where people put in, you 1092 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:46,160 know trip Bitcoin or or one era or something into something 1093 01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,080 that's basically hidden centralized website and then you 1094 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,760 know they can trade drugs and then at some point when enough 1095 01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,360 people have been using it, they just shut down the site and run 1096 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,080 away with the coins, right. And of course if you 1097 01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,560 decentralize it actually like you can't do that. 1098 01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:05,440 So I guess, but but in the end I, I yeah, like you would expect 1099 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,400 that thing to happen. And then of course it also 1100 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,000 something we did episodes about, right? 1101 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:15,080 There was the hackathon project whole dark Market by like Army 1102 01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:20,040 Talkie at some point and then and then they even ended up 1103 01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:23,200 getting well, there was a project Open Bazaar, right, that 1104 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,960 kind of took this and ended up getting venture funding from 1105 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,240 like Union Square Ventures in A16C like high, you know, very 1106 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:34,280 reputable funds. And and of course I think the 1107 01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,520 expectation was, you know, that OK, someone's probably going to 1108 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,440 like fork this and build a dark market because that's obviously 1109 01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,280 the biggest use, I mean the biggest market probably for 1110 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:46,040 something like that, at least in the short term. 1111 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:51,840 But yeah, never happened. I do want to say, though, that I 1112 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:56,360 think we used to think that being anonymous is way easier 1113 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,040 than it actually turned out to be. 1114 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,960 So I think kind of back in the days of the Dow hack people, 1115 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,360 people did assume they were anonymous to a large extent, 1116 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:10,040 which I think this kind of predated like you know all the 1117 01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,360 chain analysis like companies of the world, right. 1118 01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,720 So and then if you don't have very sophisticated block 1119 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,800 explorers and Nansen and whatever, it's really difficult 1120 01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,760 to actually to actually trace everything fully on chain. 1121 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:28,600 So I think there was a reasonable expectation that 1122 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:32,880 things would be private and things still didn't get built. 1123 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,360 So maybe something more deep seated here. 1124 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:42,280 Yeah, I feel that privacy is probably the it's really 1125 01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:47,240 unfortunate that, like, we still don't have reasonable options 1126 01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,080 for privacy in the space, I mean. 1127 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,040 We'll we'll get them. So this is something that I have 1128 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,200 absolutely for the next 10 years. 1129 01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:00,960 So with with ZK Proves and FHE&MPZI think kind of we're 1130 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,680 going to get there. Yeah. 1131 01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,960 And we also have Felix on now. So Felix is the late host. 1132 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,560 Hey, Felix. Hi, thanks. 1133 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,160 Thanks for having me and Congrats to 10 years to all of 1134 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,360 you guys. So happy that I was able to join 1135 01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:19,640 as a host and take over some of the episodes that maybe Sunny 1136 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:26,600 would have done otherwise. That's a that's a bird if I ever 1137 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:31,840 heard one. So yeah, Felix, what's your, 1138 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:33,720 what's your most memorable episode? 1139 01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,920 I was looking earlier and it looks like you've done well. 1140 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:37,920 You know, you you haven't done as much as study. 1141 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,200 So we still have some catching up to do. 1142 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,760 But you've done something like 25 episodes, maybe 29. 1143 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:44,960 What's been your favorite so far? 1144 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,400 Yeah, I really like the DYDX episode I did with Brian. 1145 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,920 It was like just very, yeah, clean episode. 1146 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:59,400 We'd kind of covered everything. It was very, yeah, a good, great 1147 01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,920 product, you know, big success and we kind of went over 1148 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,520 everything and inspiring like sort of story from Anthony and 1149 01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,840 like sort of the journey of the Oidx and really enjoyed that 1150 01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,040 episode. Yeah. 1151 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,880 Who would you, who would you like to to to get on in the next 1152 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,400 couple of months? Oh, yeah. 1153 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:23,960 I think Jeto, I was trying to get Lucas on, actually, but then 1154 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,240 they were way too busy with the AI drop and and everything. 1155 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:33,280 And yeah, I guess it's, it's kind of me being like in this 1156 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:38,680 staking niche of Epicenter. And I I think now, I guess, 1157 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,360 yeah, many people are probably interested, you know, what's how 1158 01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,320 is Jito doing like because got like much bigger and much more 1159 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:48,000 attention, right. And yeah, maybe like kind of a 1160 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,440 counter to this like sort of the Lido and Flash Boards episode 1161 01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,080 that we also had with Stefan and Vasili back then. 1162 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,160 So could be a very cool one. Excited for that one. 1163 01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,000 Yeah, Griffin, left Terrace. I want to ask you, 'cause I mean 1164 01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,600 you guys are like so OG into Ethereum and you know, like 1165 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,720 still very much into that space. Like how much, how much do you 1166 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:12,560 pay? How much attention do you give 1167 01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:18,320 to like other ecosystems or like whether it's Cosmos or Solana or 1168 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,440 like, you know, maybe some of the stuff happening over on on 1169 01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,280 Polygon or some other ecosystems. 1170 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,440 Like do you pay any attention at all to what's going on there? 1171 01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,760 Are you just, like still very focused on Ethereum? 1172 01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:33,800 It's a theorem alignment question. 1173 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:39,120 I can smell it. I can smell it. 1174 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:44,320 Yes, it's a drop for me. I it's very difficult. 1175 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,880 Like so many different stuff pop up, it's impossible to follow. 1176 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:54,240 But I personally try to look at all the different acquisitions, 1177 01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,920 but I can't even claim to know anything as well as I do a 1178 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,680 stadium. Which is kind of sad, like being 1179 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:10,120 honest, I look the most what I have interesting or a bug in. 1180 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,400 So if I have lots of tokens or something, I'm well interested 1181 01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,360 to see if if that bug is going to be worth anything. 1182 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,800 And also because I'm doing Rocky, I am trying to focus on 1183 01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,320 everything that people ask for, which besides CVM chains would 1184 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:37,760 be cosmos and substrate. So these are our two biggest 1185 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:39,480 tasks. And then there is some people 1186 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,240 who do who want us to definity and then Solana. 1187 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,520 But I I don't know anything about Solana. 1188 01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,720 I would like to find more time and like it's also interesting 1189 01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,680 like I really like everything but you didn't know what I mean 1190 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,760 yeah I'm I'm kind of like left terrace I mean I definitely 1191 01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:02,840 chase my bags no but also I I I follow more of like the region 1192 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:08,240 space so region network I I I'm follow relatively closely and 1193 01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:14,080 I'm always watching what's going on and XO in Cosmos also was 1194 01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:19,720 checking them out but but unless it's so I'm like Solana I 1195 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:21,880 haven't seen any region projects on Solana. 1196 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,040 There probably are, but I don't know them. 1197 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:25,920 But actually Giveth is going to be one. 1198 01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,360 We're going to integrate Solana so that you can donate on Giveth 1199 01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,160 because I don't. I didn't. 1200 01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:32,840 I think there's an opportunity there. 1201 01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,360 So you know there's not a donation platform that I know of 1202 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,880 there. So hey, why not I I wish I 1203 01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:43,240 followed I I followed polka dot in in the in in that Web 3 1204 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,600 foundation space early on. But I haven't seen a whole lot 1205 01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,160 developed there. So mostly I follow in the EVM 1206 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,280 space because that's where I know people who can do cool 1207 01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,760 things and that's definitely where the region space is. 1208 01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,040 I'm very close with Polygon optimism and Arbitrome and and 1209 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,680 public goods network and all the L twos. 1210 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,480 So I I consider all of that Etherium though like even 1211 01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,680 Polygon. I mean if it's EVM you know 1212 01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,000 Etherium is the E right? So I don't I don't know if that 1213 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,240 should really count. You know if there is talked 1214 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:22,960 about alignment earlier, do you do you think that you know 1215 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,279 everything will that will converge to Etherium and that 1216 01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:31,880 basically like all of the other ecosystems will borrow security 1217 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,439 from Etherium in one way or another, whether through 1218 01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:40,399 restaking or or or mesh security or some other sort of like novel 1219 01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:42,880 security mechanisms? I do not. 1220 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,240 I I I do. Think that there is going to be 1221 01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:48,840 a a power law distribution, but I don't think that there will be 1222 01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,840 like everyone uses Etherium. That would just be dumb. 1223 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,080 Like why would we centralized around that? 1224 01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:57,279 We need diversity in space, and I also just think there's enough 1225 01:08:57,279 --> 01:08:58,279 incentives. For. 1226 01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:03,200 Challengers to always be there. That's a very good question. 1227 01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:07,640 It's very difficult to answer because Etherium has an amazing 1228 01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:09,319 staying power. I would not have imagined that 1229 01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:12,399 it's so easy. So, so many things are built 1230 01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:15,520 around the theorem, and even though other ecosystems really 1231 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,880 come up with novel ideas and pretty interesting concepts, we 1232 01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,560 seem to still do stuff on the AVM. 1233 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,120 Though it has its flaws and I don't know why. 1234 01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,760 We seem to just focus on it a lot more than anything else 1235 01:09:33,359 --> 01:09:35,399 about mistaking. I really don't know enough to 1236 01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:40,479 even give an informed opinion, but from the problems that we 1237 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:45,439 have with the theorem stating some were suggesting that we can 1238 01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:49,399 do something that I think both Cosmos and and and the subset 1239 01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:52,439 ecosystem does. Don't remember the name, but 1240 01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,600 that you are validating your stake to someone that probably 1241 01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,680 has a name, I just don't know it, Which you cannot do in a 1242 01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,800 theorem. You have to either stake on your 1243 01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,080 own or do the liquid stating stuff right? 1244 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,920 What's the name of that thing in in Cosmos? 1245 01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:12,680 And that is a good name for delegating your steak, Yeah. 1246 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,040 I mean the liquid taking stuff in Cosmos or what? 1247 01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,920 Or. Just delegation to to a 1248 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,280 validator. The concept that doesn't exist 1249 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,040 in here, basically. Yeah, this. 1250 01:10:25,440 --> 01:10:30,120 So for example, when I go to my tea, I delegated it to Larry 1251 01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,960 something someone for for staging, right? 1252 01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,680 And with substrate it's exactly the same thing like you. 1253 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,800 If you don't want to run your own validator, you have to. 1254 01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:43,440 You have this option of of delegating the stake I. 1255 01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,520 Mean you were you you made you made a bit of a face there while 1256 01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,560 I was asking that question like like maybe you had something to 1257 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:58,960 to add here. I made a face yeah on on what 1258 01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:00,440 the question about like ETH alignment. 1259 01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,840 Artists, yeah? Or maybe when when Griff was 1260 01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,800 saying that things wouldn't align with Ethereum? 1261 01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,800 Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think Ethereum has 1262 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,600 done a good job of building this community around it. 1263 01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,760 I I I've just not, not always been a believer in like 1264 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,960 multipolar systems. I think that like, you know, 1265 01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,080 Solana has built quite a bit of a Cultural Center. 1266 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,360 I think Cosmos has grown a Cultural Center. 1267 01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,200 At the end of the day, I honestly just don't. 1268 01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:35,680 I don't know. I think from a cultural 1269 01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,280 standpoint, I don't know. I just find my, my maybe just 1270 01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:40,400 like by nature of when I got involved with the space. 1271 01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:43,320 I just like in my heart. I just like feel like a 1272 01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:44,640 bitcoiner. I don't know why. 1273 01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,880 Like if I tell anyone it's like, you know, and I and I feel like 1274 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,560 five of us. Like when I just go talk to like 1275 01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,840 friends and stuff, it's like if I try to pitch them on a trip or 1276 01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:54,920 people who are not like drinking the kool-aid, right. 1277 01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:58,760 I like I feel like I can explain Bitcoin so easily and they like 1278 01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:03,080 get it right like nothing very very little else is like easy to 1279 01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:06,560 explain like I it's like so hard to explain like ETH like I don't 1280 01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,240 think and you know I think people just start asking 1281 01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,920 questions that I you know I I I can explain Bitcoin really well 1282 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,960 and I can explain like certain defy apps really well right. 1283 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:18,040 I mean obviously I can explain osmosis really well and like 1284 01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:19,640 what the value prop here is right. 1285 01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,480 But like, you know, if you tried to ask me like pitch ETH to 1286 01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:24,680 ignore me, I actually don't know how to like do that. 1287 01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,240 So I don't know. That's kind of I I'm a believer 1288 01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,720 in Bitcoin and I'm a believer in like applications. 1289 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,760 Yeah, I mean and I I think that's a really fair stance 1290 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,040 because Bitcoin has like a very clear application and it is its 1291 01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,400 own application effectively of like these supplies money and it 1292 01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,440 does it really well. But like the other like Etherium 1293 01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:47,880 and Solana and Cosmos, I mean it's just you're talking to 1294 01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,120 normies about why Mongo DB is better than another database 1295 01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:53,400 framework and it. It it shouldn't happen. 1296 01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:58,880 Also, why Mongo DB is a, you know, $500 billion product? 1297 01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:04,960 Yeah, I I I exactly, I I think in the end different product, 1298 01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,560 these different products will all exist because users don't 1299 01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,880 care. Our tribalism is in our in the 1300 01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:11,920 crypto space and that's like super niche. 1301 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,440 And what's gonna win is, is the applications that are built on 1302 01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,960 top that are useful. Yeah, I guess the problem is 1303 01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:22,560 that you're trying to compare Bitcoin, which is more like a 1304 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:24,880 you can you call it an application, right? 1305 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,720 It's easy to understand, while Ethereum, UVM, etc. 1306 01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:33,880 It's a platform to build UPS on, so it's much harder to explain 1307 01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,320 to an army. Cool. 1308 01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,120 Thank you guys for being here. Griffin left. 1309 01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,000 Harris. I know. 1310 01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:46,600 Left Harris, you're joining us from the middle of nowhere as as 1311 01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:49,800 can be seen by your very blocky picture. 1312 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,720 And I, I, I, I can, I can, I can vouch for the fact that theft 1313 01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,440 Harris usually doesn't look so pixely. 1314 01:13:56,720 --> 01:14:02,040 So thank you both for coming on and it's been a real pleasure. 1315 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,000 Thank you for allowing us to, you know, participate in your 1316 01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:07,680 10th year anniversary, your birthday. 1317 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,200 Yeah, happy birthday. Guys, enjoyed you guys since the 1318 01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:13,040 very beginning. Thank you for doing all this 1319 01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:14,760 work. Thanks guys. 1320 01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:19,080 Thanks so much guys. OK, time for our next guests, 1321 01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,240 right. So we have Anna and Sam. 1322 01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,720 Hang on, let me bring you guys on. 1323 01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:26,640 Hello. Hi. 1324 01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:32,560 Hey hi so just brief introductions here. 1325 01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:39,800 So Anna Rose who is the host of ZK podcast, also very popular 1326 01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:46,320 podcast and one of my favorites. And Sam who I met a couple of 1327 01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,800 weeks ago in Istanbul and he had such a crazy story about about 1328 01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:54,960 like his experience listening to Epicenter that I just wanted to 1329 01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:59,120 get him on to tell that story here on the on our on our live 1330 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,360 stream. So yeah, thanks for coming guys. 1331 01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:02,520 Cool. Nice. 1332 01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:03,440 To. Be here the. 1333 01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:06,480 First podcast ever. Oh, good. 1334 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:11,760 Nice. There are so many hosts I when I 1335 01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,400 first joined, I thought there was like a ton of guests, but 1336 01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:16,840 no, it's like it's Are you guys at six now? 1337 01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:22,240 Seven if he counts Sunny. Sunny is a sort of, you know is 1338 01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,960 depending on the weather host, yes. 1339 01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,640 Yeah, Sam, Sam, tell, tell, tell us a bit about yourself and 1340 01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:34,080 yeah, when you started this podcast. 1341 01:15:34,440 --> 01:15:39,000 I I've worked in Tran 5 for about 20 years so I've just gone 1342 01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:42,160 I guess you would say crypto native I think. 1343 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,880 I think the only other one of you that I've met in person may 1344 01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:48,920 be Sunny. We actually met you were on my 1345 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:57,160 flight back from from ECC we chatted in line but I started so 1346 01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,360 I got into space right around when Federica joined as a Co 1347 01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,720 host. I started the first macro fund 1348 01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:06,480 that could trade liquid crypto and it's my background is in 1349 01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:11,040 tradbi and and and and macro trading, you know come from like 1350 01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,400 the economics perspective. And. 1351 01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,680 I traded the first option on Etherium. 1352 01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,760 You know, back in 2018 when I was at. 2019 when I was at like 1353 01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:26,400 120 bucks and most recently I ran a crypto for a one of the 1354 01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,960 largest and oldest global macro funds in the world and and then 1355 01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:37,360 during that period I we invested in scroll and I have now joined 1356 01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,960 full time as an advisor. Congrats. 1357 01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:42,800 Yeah. So what's what's this? 1358 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:48,000 Yeah. Tell the story about I think it 1359 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:50,080 was about. I think it was you. 1360 01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:54,080 You said you were like the the episode that Ellie Benzeson. 1361 01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:59,680 Yeah, so I was telling. So I I was telling him that I 1362 01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,040 often times listen to podcasts on when I'm in the shower. 1363 01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:08,240 And Federica recently interviewed Ellie and you know, 1364 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,840 I was literally so the obviously and I'm listening to it on my 1365 01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:13,960 phone, which I have like, you know, put up like this. 1366 01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:17,360 And you know, obviously the sound is not super loud. 1367 01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:18,560 You've got the water and everything. 1368 01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:22,360 And she's asking him this very delicate question, which I'm a 1369 01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:24,400 bit of an ETH maxi to the disclosure. 1370 01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:28,360 And you know, there is some suspicion within I think parts 1371 01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:32,800 of the Ethereum community about how aligned may be starboard may 1372 01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:34,160 be. And she's asking him this 1373 01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:36,400 question about where they're posting the data. 1374 01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:41,200 And he goes, well, we're pushing it to, you know, our this state 1375 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:42,800 availability committee, blah, blah, blah. 1376 01:17:43,480 --> 01:17:46,680 And she goes, so you have another L1. 1377 01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,840 And I literally was like, all I saw was like shampoo in my hair. 1378 01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:55,120 And I like, stopped. And he goes, well, I hadn't 1379 01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:58,240 really thought of it that way, but I guess so. 1380 01:17:58,440 --> 01:17:59,840 And she goes, oh, that's very interesting. 1381 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,600 And then I was waiting for him and this is where I think it 1382 01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,600 might get a little bit spicy, but I was waiting for him to 1383 01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,680 then turn around and be if he wanted to snipe better and be 1384 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:14,120 like, well, don't you work for another Alt L1 as well? 1385 01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:19,280 Gnosis is it Gnosis an Alt L? Another L1, But it didn't go in 1386 01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:21,080 that direction. But it was. 1387 01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:24,080 It was the first time I've heard anybody really challenge him on 1388 01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:28,120 this and I thought it was it was very interesting to me and I 1389 01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:29,760 relate the story. They thought it was funny 1390 01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:30,960 because I was in the shower at the time. 1391 01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,440 So you take you take like 90 minute long showers or like the 1392 01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,880 the full episode or. Well, you know, I think this 1393 01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,240 sprung out of, I think it sprung out of because I used to like to 1394 01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,520 go to the sauna in the steam room and take a lot of reading. 1395 01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:47,440 You know, there's no distractions, there's no TV's, 1396 01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:50,600 You can't use your phone, right. And so it's just this like, you 1397 01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:54,120 know, this deprivation and after COVID, you know, during COVID, 1398 01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,920 obviously all the gym shut down and whatever. 1399 01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,960 And you know, we now we're, you know, during that COVID period 1400 01:18:59,960 --> 01:19:02,240 and afterwards it's like you're just surrounded by your screens 1401 01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,720 or televisions or your phone. And so the, I think the shower 1402 01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:08,840 became this like deprivation place where like if I was in the 1403 01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,440 shower I'd put on somewhere I could just listen. 1404 01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:14,040 And you know, your mind's a lot, the whole shower dawn thing. 1405 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:15,800 So it is. I think that's where it came 1406 01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,680 from, but I'm not sure. Did I get Do you remember this 1407 01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:19,760 episode? Do you remember this? 1408 01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:21,760 This. What are you talking about? 1409 01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:26,400 And I remember it was not so long ago, right? 1410 01:19:26,480 --> 01:19:28,360 It was. Actually, during Paris, that's 1411 01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:29,880 when I listened to it during heats. 1412 01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:32,200 But you may. It wasn't very long ago, but I 1413 01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:34,960 don't actually remember this specific question, but kind of 1414 01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:38,040 I'm I'm all for kind of putting things very plainly. 1415 01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:43,000 So it's, yeah. But I I have to say, you know, I 1416 01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,120 recommend Epicenter. So I've been listening. 1417 01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:48,480 Probably maybe I started listening like 20/16/2017 but I 1418 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,880 I mean I'm I listened routinely since then and I refer new 1419 01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,520 traffic people trying to learn about the space to listen to 1420 01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:00,520 epicenter and to also when they're trying to learn they'll 1421 01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:02,600 ask me about a project or something and I'll say why don't 1422 01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,920 you go find the epicenter you know podcast with that project 1423 01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:09,320 from maybe it was years ago but it's you guys have become almost 1424 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,840 like a a reference material and I think by the way I'll give 1425 01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:16,040 credit to Anna I listen to her show religiously as well. 1426 01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,920 Certainly in the ZK space you play that role but for the Tri 1427 01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,760 Fi people that's a little they the the knowledge level is 1428 01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,320 extremely low in Tri Fi. I I can't emphasize this enough 1429 01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:31,320 a little bit to Sunny's point. You know the understanding of 1430 01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:35,520 what Ethereum is for example should you know the the the the 1431 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:37,480 really the the level of understanding is that it's a 1432 01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:40,560 cryptocurrency like Bitcoin with some utility and and that's 1433 01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,080 really it. And so I actually think that 1434 01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,200 Epicenter plays a really important role and from an 1435 01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:51,720 education and introduction standpoint and I I, you know, I 1436 01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:55,800 use it personally as a kind of an encyclopedia of the space, 1437 01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,640 but I refer Tri fi people as well to you that that way. 1438 01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:04,760 Well, thank you. Well I guess if we, if we if we 1439 01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:08,480 encounter people from Tri fi that listen to the podcast, I'll 1440 01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:10,880 ask them if they come from from Sam. 1441 01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:12,720 Cool. Yeah. 1442 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:14,680 Well, thank thanks for coming on and telling a story. 1443 01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:17,720 And yeah, thanks for thanks for being a lawyer, listener. 1444 01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,160 Yeah, I guess good segue to the other podcast was known. 1445 01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:26,080 Yeah, yeah. Wendy, you get started with 1446 01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:28,920 Seagate. It's been a long time as well, 1447 01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:29,960 though. Yeah. 1448 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,040 So I was thinking about your questions of like, when did we 1449 01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:35,680 first, when did I first hear about epicentre? 1450 01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,600 For sure. It's 2017 for me, probably 1451 01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:43,600 before we started the show. I know that. 1452 01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:46,000 Like, I mean you guys, you guys were a. 1453 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:49,080 Lot bigger than us. Back then, you were like the 1454 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:50,880 big. We were just like for our, you 1455 01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:52,600 know, for our friends in the office. 1456 01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:56,360 It was very, very small. But I know I was for sure a 1457 01:21:56,360 --> 01:22:00,120 listener by Devcon 2017 in Cancun. 1458 01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:03,880 Because Brian, that's when I voice recognized you on a bus 1459 01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:07,040 and like weirded you out and went over and was like, are you 1460 01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,240 Brian from? Like I did that. 1461 01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:10,880 Yes, I remember. I remember. 1462 01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:12,200 Yeah, yeah. They're all like go away and 1463 01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,200 like you had nowhere to go. It was like this this box. 1464 01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,600 Of us taking us from a place to a place, another place that was 1465 01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,040 like not moving anyway, but yeah, that was for sure. 1466 01:22:24,120 --> 01:22:26,920 So by then, obviously I've been listening for a long time and I 1467 01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:30,840 was also thinking about what were those guests that like I 1468 01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:34,720 remember, I don't know that I that I listened to that would 1469 01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:37,400 have changed something and I have a few that I picked out. 1470 01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:42,680 One was for sure like Matter and Alex GI think I had already had 1471 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:47,320 him on my show, but I think it was like a phase shift in the 1472 01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:50,040 project that I learned about your Epicenter. 1473 01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,360 I remember the episode with Dank Red in 2021. 1474 01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,800 For some reason that one stands out and you guys have covered 1475 01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:02,800 Orbit often, which I still don't understand, but I I always 1476 01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:05,480 listen to those ones. Brian, this is a good chance 1477 01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:07,600 tell. US more about. 1478 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,880 I've listened to it that one and I don't understand it either. 1479 01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:12,520 So I I can explain it. I can explain. 1480 01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:15,600 It. OK, no, no, I'm sunny. 1481 01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:16,800 Explain it. Oh yeah? 1482 01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:17,240 Yeah. Sunny. 1483 01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:17,920 What? What is that? 1484 01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:20,960 OK, OK. Do you guys know Secure 1485 01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,640 Scuttlebutt? You familiar with Secure 1486 01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:27,640 Scuttlebutt? It was a DAG based social 1487 01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:31,600 network instead of a blockchain. You know you peer-to-peer gossip 1488 01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:35,200 with other nodes and eventually you have this like eventually 1489 01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,760 consistent view of the network. We also did an episode with them 1490 01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:40,120 into an episode. Yeah, I did too, actually. 1491 01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:43,640 It does not solve a double spend problem. 1492 01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,920 Episode 290. But because it's a social 1493 01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:48,920 network, what is a double spend, right? 1494 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:51,200 It's just, oh, you told us one person you like to post, another 1495 01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:52,880 person you dislike to post. Like, whatever, right? 1496 01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:58,240 It doesn't really matter, OK? Put secure settlement on the 1497 01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:01,280 side for a second. Bitcoin wanted to build this 1498 01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:03,880 like thing like like decentralized money project. 1499 01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:08,600 And in order to do this invented a new decentralized data 1500 01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,680 structure called a blockchain, right. 1501 01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:13,640 And it's like, OK, really fast finality. 1502 01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:16,640 A relatively fast finality and like, solves this double spend 1503 01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,480 problem. Etherium comes along and it's 1504 01:24:19,480 --> 01:24:22,560 like, oh cool, decentralized data structure. 1505 01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:26,520 What if we put a generalized VM on top of that and like have it 1506 01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:30,160 run arbitrary applications? I think the best way to think of 1507 01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:33,840 Urbit is take secure scuttlebutt, the decentralized 1508 01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:35,600 data structure that is secure Scuttlebutt. 1509 01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:38,560 It's like, why are we only running a single social network 1510 01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:41,080 platform on top of this? What if we actually instead 1511 01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:45,120 slapped A generalized VM on top of this and made it so like, OK, 1512 01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,120 here's a platform that people can build peer-to-peer 1513 01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:50,280 applications, right? Like you have a bunch of people 1514 01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:52,440 right now trying to build decentralized social networks, 1515 01:24:52,440 --> 01:24:55,160 right? You have like broadcaster and 1516 01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:56,800 you know Blue sky and everyone, but right? 1517 01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,320 And everyone's like building specialized P to P like 1518 01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:03,200 networking, like most P to P Dapps don't need a blockchain, 1519 01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:04,760 right? You don't need global state for 1520 01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,640 most, for a lot of social applications. 1521 01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:11,680 Herbich's take is like, hey, instead of building custom P to 1522 01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:15,960 P stacks for everything and like, let's build one OS and 1523 01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,600 then people can deploy applications on top of that. 1524 01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:22,440 That is orbit for you. And this scuttlebutt, this 1525 01:25:22,440 --> 01:25:26,600 gossip part, is that at the core of Orbit's like architecture, 1526 01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:27,920 This sort of. The way. 1527 01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:31,000 Yeah, it's not communicating everywhere. 1528 01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:33,880 No, no global state. It's just local Closer. 1529 01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,960 OK. Another way I think, I I think 1530 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,600 of like you know for Cosmos people to think about it is 1531 01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:43,880 imagine everyone had their own personal Cosmosm chain. 1532 01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:46,800 Like I had Sunny chain, you had Anna chain. 1533 01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,840 And then like you know we all use IBC to talk to each other. 1534 01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:53,440 And if I wanted to build a messaging app, I would deploy, I 1535 01:25:53,440 --> 01:25:56,160 would write the Cosmosm contract for it or the the smart contract 1536 01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:59,080 for it, and I would deploy it on my chain and on your chain. 1537 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,960 And then we send messages over IBC between our chains. 1538 01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:05,440 OK. But only they're kind of like, 1539 01:26:05,480 --> 01:26:07,560 not. If you don't, you can broadcast 1540 01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:11,760 global state every year. OK, we need we need Sunny back 1541 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,880 to do more episodes. I think maybe this is this is 1542 01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:19,000 kind of the petition here. Yeah. 1543 01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,760 Another another sort of way of explaining ERWIT is the idea 1544 01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:28,920 that it's, it's a sort of system that's where, you know, the idea 1545 01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:33,160 is that computation is focused around the personal server, 1546 01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:35,760 right? So that you have sort of your 1547 01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:39,320 server and all of your data on your applications live on your 1548 01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:41,920 server. And then it's like network with 1549 01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:44,480 other servers, right? So like an application developer 1550 01:26:44,480 --> 01:26:47,920 develops their app, it gets, you know, shipped to all everyone's 1551 01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:50,960 server and then there's like an identity system, peer-to-peer 1552 01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:56,800 messaging and then and yeah, it has some of these kind of 1553 01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:59,600 blockchain features, this server, right. 1554 01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:03,800 In that, you know, you can prove all this, you know, it's like 1555 01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:06,080 deterministic, right. And you can always prove the 1556 01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:09,480 state, yeah, if people, if people are interested in it. 1557 01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:14,680 So at of course one we've been, you know we've been sort of 1558 01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:22,320 building orbit hosting product and you can go to redhorizon.com 1559 01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:25,240 and then you can onboard onto orbit. 1560 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,960 Then we give you like an orbit ID and you can try it out. 1561 01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:32,080 It's like super simple you you can be on there in like 2 1562 01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:35,080 minutes and then you can try it out and let us know what you 1563 01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:37,560 think. So maybe that's the trick of 1564 01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:39,360 orbit. You got to, you got to try it to 1565 01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:43,280 understand it. Yeah, definitely. 1566 01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:47,880 That's, yeah, that helps, yeah. So yeah, it's Red, horizon.com, 1567 01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:52,920 so RED and then horizonhorizon.com. 1568 01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,200 Cool. Anna and Sam, it's been an 1569 01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:01,000 absolute pleasure having you on with us for quote of an hour. 1570 01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:05,840 So it was, yeah, super nice. Have wonderful holidays. 1571 01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:06,640 Thank. You for? 1572 01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:10,600 And Congrats again, everyone to the 10th anniversary. 1573 01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:14,000 Fantastic. So now we're only missing AI. 1574 01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:19,920 Epicenter Host side soon catch up to you. 1575 01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:22,240 Yeah. Let us know when you have your 1576 01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:27,160 10, when it's your 10 year coming up, It's also not that 1577 01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,120 far, no. No, well we just did three, I 1578 01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:32,280 did 300th episode with a bit of a look back that just came out a 1579 01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,400 few weeks ago. But yeah, we started, I mean 1580 01:28:36,480 --> 01:28:40,960 officially like weekly. It was beginning of 2018. 1581 01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:44,680 So what am What am I at episode six years almost. 1582 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:46,800 Oh OK. The first first episode was in 1583 01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:49,080 2017, but it was like on SoundCloud. 1584 01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:51,880 And then we published it elsewhere. 1585 01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:55,040 But. OK, so three more 2018. 1586 01:28:55,920 --> 01:29:00,160 Yeah, there we go. Well, I hope I can invite you 1587 01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:01,880 guys for that. I would love to that. 1588 01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:04,040 We would, definitely. First five years of the harvest. 1589 01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:05,520 So you're you're, you're past the hump. 1590 01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:08,480 It's amazing that you guys stayed with it for 10 years. 1591 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:12,600 That's the secret sauce. It's just keep going. 1592 01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:14,840 Don't quit. We hope. 1593 01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:17,320 We hope we can continue providing you with shower 1594 01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:19,960 content for for another day. But you. 1595 01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,600 Know I'm gonna break. You know, I can't get through a 1596 01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:28,760 full episode, so you know, it's it's it, it scales well with the 1597 01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:31,840 shower, you know, 'cause I get about 3 showers per episodes. 1598 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:37,520 It's true, you. Do take long showers. 1599 01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:40,480 I'm sure your water supply company is really happy with 1600 01:29:40,480 --> 01:29:41,600 this. Yeah, the US, you know. 1601 01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,440 The the incremental water it's it's very cheap so. 1602 01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:45,520 I. Guess yeah. 1603 01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:53,000 And and we'll have to do another crossover episode. 1604 01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,520 It's. True, I I saw, I was listening 1605 01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:57,840 to that the other day. There was like, I don't know if 1606 01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,280 people know it was recorded. We like, kind of made a thing of 1607 01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:01,520 it. We released it on both of our 1608 01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:03,520 channels on YouTube. Yeah, from. 1609 01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:07,760 Television 2019, Yeah. Have a good rest of your 1610 01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:09,600 session. Thanks. 1611 01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,680 OK. And we have Johnny. 1612 01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:17,800 Hey, I. Know anything going to that 1613 01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:19,720 case? Hey, Jordy. 1614 01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:22,760 Thank you. Yeah. 1615 01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:26,920 Remember I remember when I mean at the beginning, very beginning 1616 01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:31,280 when I started to be in the community in the Rao and and I 1617 01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:34,720 mean I think it was the first podcast that I shared about 1618 01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:42,080 Bitcoin by the time and it was in 2015 or or something around 1619 01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:44,640 there. So yeah, which is still there in 1620 01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:47,720 the top. So that's yeah, I think it's 1621 01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,640 that's a good job guys. So Jordy, how long have you been 1622 01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:55,400 in the space now? I mean, I was, I was reading the 1623 01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:59,560 Bitcoin paper in 2013, but actually I was trying to do 1624 01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:04,560 smart contracts by the time and and you you very soon you 1625 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,600 discover that Bitcoin was not. Prepare. 1626 01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,480 Pretty much prepared me all the all the all the all the 1627 01:31:10,480 --> 01:31:13,520 scripting language was very limited and even though most of 1628 01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:17,240 the codes all the off codes just didn't work by the time it was 1629 01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:20,280 very very very very frustrating everything super slow and and 1630 01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:26,120 just abandoned some hole and was until 2015 that I discovered a 1631 01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:30,240 film that in a very strange way and because I was just having 1632 01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:35,880 another job out of work and I remember that in like in 10 1633 01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,440 minutes I was able to just create a solidity smart 1634 01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:41,520 contract. And what I was trying to do in 1635 01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:47,920 2013 was so easy in 2015 that I just get engaged and from there 1636 01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:52,000 was like from me was like a drunk just reading understanding 1637 01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:56,560 discovering just learning what these just what's behind the 1638 01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:01,000 technology behind the. I mean you you you just discover 1639 01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:05,160 the community you discovered by the time was the DAO and and 1640 01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:10,120 people just building around and there was a bunch of people just 1641 01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:13,560 trying to develop things and Remember Me talking with people 1642 01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:17,920 from from swarm and where all these daps start happening. 1643 01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:23,360 And from the global perspective I think Ethereum was was 1644 01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,440 incredible because it's like you have like a new toy and then you 1645 01:32:26,440 --> 01:32:30,280 can start building a lot of these centralized things on top 1646 01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:32,440 of that. I mean if if Bitcoin was was 1647 01:32:32,440 --> 01:32:36,400 fine I mean it was great but it's it's just money transfer 1648 01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:39,800 you you just OK which is important but it's just that and 1649 01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:43,800 Ethereum opens the space to these decentralized applications 1650 01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,200 and from the developer perspective this opens a huge 1651 01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:50,040 world a new world and and for me was I mean this is where I 1652 01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:53,360 entered in and I'm I'm still here. 1653 01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:57,680 I mean, I'm still learning. So yeah, that's Hawaii. 1654 01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,680 How Hawaii enter. Hey, Ryan. 1655 01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:04,200 Hey, guys. How you doing? 1656 01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:06,360 Good to see everybody. Hey. 1657 01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:10,000 Ryan. We also have anxious value just 1658 01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:14,040 now this, this was actually kind of your idea like you you when 1659 01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:18,760 when when we had you on I think it was last year you you 1660 01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:19,960 mentioned that we should do this. 1661 01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:22,280 I don't remember. It was like on the podcast or 1662 01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:27,000 like after the podcast, but then this is like we sort of ran with 1663 01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:31,400 it and yeah. Yeah, it it it's interesting, 1664 01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:36,280 you know, like I I find Epicenter to be this this 1665 01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:41,440 compelling kind of historical record of the space, right, 1666 01:33:41,440 --> 01:33:46,520 where there are moments in time where you know the name was kind 1667 01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:52,560 of very opportune because it was the center of the discussion in 1668 01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:55,600 very critical moments. So for example like the Dow hack 1669 01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:59,520 which obviously you you know Geordie sat at the the eye of 1670 01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:04,320 the storm of and and and was was so critical in in covering funds 1671 01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:08,440 and and all the work that that he did and that as well as the 1672 01:34:08,440 --> 01:34:11,040 other things with like parody wallet hacks and so on and so 1673 01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:13,920 forth. When people needed critical 1674 01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:15,360 information about what was going on. 1675 01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:20,280 Either prior to the Dow hack we think Vlad had a had like a like 1676 01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:24,760 a a warning podcast with you guys about about it and then it 1677 01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:28,680 happened and then Jordy saved it or saved most of it and then 1678 01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:31,520 Jordy came on after and like if you want to stay up to date with 1679 01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:34,640 it which I did because I I deployed capital into it. 1680 01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:37,520 Epicenter was the thing and there and and there has been 1681 01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:41,800 these moments in time where where Epicenter has has sat at 1682 01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,960 the center of the conversation of of our space, which has been 1683 01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:47,920 really critical. And so yeah, I'm, I'm super 1684 01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:49,040 happy that you guys are doing this. 1685 01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:53,280 That chapter that thing was blood and I mean I mean we'll 1686 01:34:53,280 --> 01:34:57,160 see her talking about the the all the power flows and all the 1687 01:34:57,160 --> 01:35:02,760 problems and what to do and and you didn't happen yet I mean was 1688 01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:05,480 in that moment that was the the the there was. 1689 01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:09,920 Like 2 weeks before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was. 1690 01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:14,360 But for me, I mean that was personally I think that that 1691 01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:20,160 moment was the most interesting moment on the how history 1692 01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:22,920 because it's like OK people realize that there was like a 1693 01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:29,360 bunch of money there and the smart contract contract was was 1694 01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,160 very primitive and was a lot of problems. 1695 01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:36,520 People started looking at that very seriously and I mean a lot 1696 01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:40,160 of flaws just happened again that this is was just before the 1697 01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:42,960 the residency attack happened. I mean this was just before that 1698 01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:51,080 and this I mean this when the Mean and and and Blad just took 1699 01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:53,880 a little bit the leadership of the community and say hey guys 1700 01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:59,040 this is cool but here there is a lot of of problems that we need 1701 01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:03,240 to solve and we need to fix and we need to talk about and and I 1702 01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:08,600 mean I think that was one of the the the the important moments 1703 01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:15,080 from the the the history of the douse at that point and I mean 1704 01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:18,920 at the specific chapter with with with Blad Blader. 1705 01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:26,320 The mean I think is one it was an important it really and the 1706 01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:31,240 people really understands understood at that point how 1707 01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:33,600 incredible could be the douse but at the same time how 1708 01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:39,440 difficult is to to build them And I mean we're still not there 1709 01:36:39,440 --> 01:36:42,160 yet that chapter means a lot of things. 1710 01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:47,400 The number of re entrancy attacks that happened in 2023 is 1711 01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:50,760 frankly embarrassing for our industry. 1712 01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:53,680 Like, like the fact that we still are not getting it right 1713 01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:57,240 as an industry is like, come on guys, like it's 2023. 1714 01:36:57,240 --> 01:36:59,840 Like we gotta, we gotta get this shit sorted out here. 1715 01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:05,240 But I will never for the rest of my life, forget I actually had 1716 01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:09,440 fallen asleep listening to, I think, that episode I was living 1717 01:37:09,440 --> 01:37:12,280 in, in Rio de Janeiro at the time, woke up the next morning, 1718 01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:15,360 which is a Saturday, and was at the beach with my girlfriend of 1719 01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:18,920 the time. And I got this call from Alex 1720 01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:22,920 Van Dusen and Jordi Bollena, not whom I knew at all. 1721 01:37:22,920 --> 01:37:25,920 And they're like, duh, we need your Dow tokens because, like, 1722 01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:28,880 we're going to do the same attack that that that the guy 1723 01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:32,000 did. And this, this this Catalonian 1724 01:37:32,240 --> 01:37:36,920 has devised the attack just from, like, observing the attack 1725 01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,800 going on. And I kind of like, you know 1726 01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:45,440 sort of slap my girlfriend of the butt who was lying beside me 1727 01:37:45,440 --> 01:37:46,800 and was like, hey baby, we got to go home. 1728 01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:51,040 I got to send these these Spanish guy some tokens and and. 1729 01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:53,840 Where? We go. 1730 01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:57,720 I remember that is that oh I mean I was the body there. 1731 01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:01,720 I mean the body news me and and and and I mean I just was I 1732 01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:03,760 deploy it. I mean some attack just trying 1733 01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:07,960 to remember the the the Dow attack and somebody I mean some 1734 01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:13,760 some some whale just send me like 200K or 300K which was huge 1735 01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:18,840 amount of money without even knowing me and without 1736 01:38:19,440 --> 01:38:21,560 understanding and just to recover. 1737 01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,880 I mean for me was like that moment was like in a movie. 1738 01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:28,440 I mean it's I can't believe what happened. 1739 01:38:28,440 --> 01:38:32,240 I mean just a random guy that I don't even know his name and 1740 01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:40,200 just send me some phones to recover to my address and it was 1741 01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,120 a crazy. I mean if you're thinking if you 1742 01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:48,880 put it in perspective it was like everything crazy but all 1743 01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:51,000 the all the time. I mean was this was just the 1744 01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:52,560 beginning. You know a lot of guy just sent 1745 01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:55,400 like after after recording all of the phones of the DAO just 1746 01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:59,840 send like half $1,000,000 again back to the DAO and and then 1747 01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:03,160 they just tried to record. I mean, it was like crazy, crazy 1748 01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:07,760 moments by the time. One of these things that you 1749 01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:12,040 know and an epicenter is really very emblematic of this, right 1750 01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:15,760 when you meet people who come into the space and and spend say 1751 01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:19,600 like a year in in crypto, they always come back to you and 1752 01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,080 they're like, Oh my God, like it's been so crazy. 1753 01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:24,640 Like so much has happened. Like I can't even believe like 1754 01:39:24,920 --> 01:39:27,960 like this is wild and you're like actually no, like it's just 1755 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:31,400 kind of always like this. Like it just sort of, you know, 1756 01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:36,120 every year is is just as wild, not more, not less, but just 1757 01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:39,200 absolutely wild. And it's all its own unique way. 1758 01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:43,280 Which is why, you know, crypto's a strange addiction, right? 1759 01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:47,200 It's it's something that you couldn't, you couldn't really 1760 01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:50,520 decouple yourself from even if you wanted to at this point. 1761 01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,280 So that's interesting. You know, one of the questions 1762 01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,000 that I've always. Asked SO. 1763 01:39:56,680 --> 01:40:02,160 The the I remember the first, the first episode I listened to 1764 01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:05,560 from you guys was the predictions of 2014. 1765 01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:09,440 Because I was kind of like. I was mining at the time and I 1766 01:40:09,440 --> 01:40:12,240 was like, OK, like what else is out there that's like beyond 1767 01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,080 just like mining? This was episode one, by the 1768 01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:17,120 way. What was it? 1769 01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:19,280 I mean, so that was the pilot episode. 1770 01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:23,680 And then our predictions for 2014 was was the first like the 1771 01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:27,040 numbered episode. It's like episode 001. 1772 01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:31,560 It came out in January, yeah. But when it became a regular 1773 01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:36,800 thing for me was was actually almost a year later with the 1774 01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:39,680 Vitalic episode. Because I was fortunate enough 1775 01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:46,600 to see Vitalic's first ever presentation of of Etherium in 1776 01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:50,000 in Toronto at at Anthony Diorio's place. 1777 01:40:50,480 --> 01:40:55,080 And seeing his evolution as a kind of like an entrepreneur and 1778 01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:59,240 a presenter over the sort of like nine months of that moment 1779 01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:02,760 in time where like his slides were all we're all just like 1780 01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,160 code base. He's like dad is an insurance 1781 01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:08,640 contract and dad is a is an options contract. 1782 01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:10,360 We're like what it like what is this guy doing? 1783 01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:13,520 I to the conversation that he had with you guys where you guys 1784 01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:18,440 were able to really like kind of pull out a more human side of 1785 01:41:18,440 --> 01:41:21,400 him. And then shortly thereafter, 1786 01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,640 from the metallic episode, it went from EPISODE or Epicenter 1787 01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:29,880 Bitcoin to Epicenter, and it kind of felt like you guys were 1788 01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:33,720 the defining group that had realized that there was more 1789 01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:36,400 beyond Bitcoin. And this is like, you know, this 1790 01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:39,240 is 2014, right? Like, like it's still Bitcoin. 1791 01:41:39,240 --> 01:41:41,160 Maximalism wasn't even a term at the time. 1792 01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:43,200 Right, because it was. Everybody was Bitcoin 1793 01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:45,800 maximalism. Unless you were like really a 1794 01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:48,040 scammer and you're in the name Coin or something like that. 1795 01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:53,000 What caused that move for you guys? 1796 01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:53,760 Like what? What? 1797 01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:58,400 What caused the opening of the door that like, hey, there's a 1798 01:41:58,400 --> 01:42:02,640 lot of cool things here going on crypto and we should embrace all 1799 01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:06,440 of that rather than continue on this narrative around what, you 1800 01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:08,040 know, what Bitcoin did last week? 1801 01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:12,280 Yeah, I mean, I can answer that. I mean, I I think for me and I 1802 01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:16,080 think Sebastian was similar in that we were just like curious 1803 01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:20,080 about stuff happening, right. And even when, you know, even 1804 01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:24,120 when you got into Bitcoin or I got into Bitcoin like you 1805 01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:30,560 already had, he already had you know alternative in all chains. 1806 01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:33,280 You know where there was, you know, there was saying OK can we 1807 01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:36,240 like innovate on Bitcoin and bid, you know, do we decrease 1808 01:42:36,240 --> 01:42:39,560 the block time or you know you had things like pure coin that 1809 01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:42,000 was trying to do some proof of stake like thing. 1810 01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:45,560 And of course he had the things building on top of Bitcoin that 1811 01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:48,120 we're trying to do, like applications right to 1812 01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:51,400 Counterparty Master Coin. Master coin. 1813 01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:53,600 Coins, yeah. And and then the. 1814 01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:57,520 I mean the Yep, the if you're right paper right that came out 1815 01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:00,760 in December 2013. It's basically right when we 1816 01:43:00,760 --> 01:43:04,360 started the podcast and we were pretty much immediately like 1817 01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:06,600 well this is interesting. So I think we did our first 1818 01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:10,200 Ethereum episode. This is like very start of 2014. 1819 01:43:10,200 --> 01:43:13,560 I mean we we got some, you know, people on that. 1820 01:43:15,480 --> 01:43:17,040 I don't remember who we got. You like you. 1821 01:43:17,120 --> 01:43:19,280 You would you would gab on really early. 1822 01:43:19,280 --> 01:43:22,760 Like I remember gabs a gab thing where that was the first time I 1823 01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:26,280 was like, OK, this guy's smart, like like this guy knows what 1824 01:43:26,280 --> 01:43:28,080 he's doing. And it's not just metallic. 1825 01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:32,200 Yeah, but the name change is actually a bit later, right. 1826 01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:35,960 So we but I think I mean it was similar in Berlin name. 1827 01:43:35,960 --> 01:43:38,360 Change was was 2016, so I've got the article. 1828 01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:39,520 Here. Oh, was it that late? 1829 01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:44,200 But, but we we were doing all kinds of podcasts like from 2014 1830 01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,320 on. I think in terms of like doing 1831 01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:48,920 all the topics, I think you're totally right. 1832 01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:51,920 We were there already and. You were. 1833 01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:56,800 You were the launch moment, I felt like, for the narrative 1834 01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:02,800 around what Protocol Labs had built beyond IPFS, like, like I 1835 01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:07,320 think it was the first time that Juan Benet discussed File Coin 1836 01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:10,040 publicly. Yeah, there was an amazing 1837 01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:11,160 episode. I remember there was episode 1838 01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:14,960 100, we had one on and he talked about like yeah, IPFS and fire 1839 01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,360 corn and stuff and that was that was really fantastic episode. 1840 01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:22,680 That was a bit that and again, like, you know, as a capital 1841 01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:25,680 allocator, like these were really Seminole moments for me. 1842 01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:30,560 Like I I left that episode with a mission to go to Devcon 2 and 1843 01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:35,160 just like Hound Juan until he just like allowed me on a gap 1844 01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:37,120 table. I was like, I am going to like 1845 01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:41,240 figure something out to convince this guy that I am good to be 1846 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,800 around after listening, after listening to that. 1847 01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:47,560 So it's it's great. You know, the longevity is 1848 01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:50,880 important. We in dialectic, we talk all the 1849 01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,000 time, every single day. We talk about the importance of 1850 01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:57,040 compound returns, right. The strongest force in the 1851 01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:01,480 universe is compound interest. This is true in nature with the 1852 01:45:01,480 --> 01:45:03,800 golden ratio. It's true in finance with 1853 01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:07,320 compound interest. It's true in in relationships. 1854 01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:11,480 It's true in skill development and and it's like compounding 1855 01:45:11,480 --> 01:45:16,920 that you've had now over a decade which is in eternity in 1856 01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:21,040 crypto is really valuable. I mean it's been it's been 1857 01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:24,800 pivotal to to my career. You know, I I happen to be 1858 01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:29,040 skiing with my family and my my favorite ski chalet here in 1859 01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:32,360 Switzerland, which has only been enabled because of the alpha 1860 01:45:32,360 --> 01:45:34,280 that I've been able to accrue from upset. 1861 01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:38,320 Well. There's a lot of credit, but 1862 01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:44,320 yeah, thank you so much. Yeah. 1863 01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:47,920 This is a story I've heard many, many times. 1864 01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:50,600 Well, my whole family's in here. Jeez, my my mom and my dad are 1865 01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:57,360 both watching. Yeah. 1st the 1st the pilot 1866 01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:00,840 episode was also I was also in Switzerland in you know, 1867 01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:04,240 apartment in mountains, you know, just before Christmas it 1868 01:46:04,240 --> 01:46:05,920 was like in the middle of snow, so. 1869 01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:11,600 If if you go back to like a point in time for free for you 1870 01:46:11,600 --> 01:46:15,720 guys, how has the pod changed your life, right? 1871 01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,400 Like obviously it's changed our lives and that we've gotten like 1872 01:46:18,440 --> 01:46:25,440 a great, intelligent, open minded, condensed information on 1873 01:46:25,440 --> 01:46:28,600 a topic that we could like listen to say in the car, in the 1874 01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:30,720 shower or working out or whatever. 1875 01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:33,040 But how? How has it changed your lives 1876 01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:36,240 overall? I I mean, I think it was, you 1877 01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:37,800 know, of course, like crucial, right? 1878 01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:40,040 Like meeting all people in crypto. 1879 01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:43,440 I mean definitely investing in crypto as well. 1880 01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:46,440 The first, you know the first time I had kind of a job with 1881 01:46:46,440 --> 01:46:50,400 the startup you know and it was this how many errors industries 1882 01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:53,440 and you know we had them on the podcast and then applied and and 1883 01:46:53,440 --> 01:46:57,160 and reach out to them and the founder was a podcast listener 1884 01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:59,920 right. And then later you know I think 1885 01:46:59,920 --> 01:47:03,920 sort of tenement was also kind of connected with that and then 1886 01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:06,640 of course my hair was a Co host here and then we started 1887 01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:10,680 correspond together and I think it's like so many times, right. 1888 01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:14,160 It was really also through relationships, right? 1889 01:47:14,160 --> 01:47:17,440 And through people meeting, through hosting podcasts that 1890 01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:19,520 played a. So yeah, I played an absolutely 1891 01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:22,200 massive role, I think, in my life and then in the last 10 1892 01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:24,480 years. Yeah, same. 1893 01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:29,760 I mean before this I was building websites and writing 1894 01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:32,120 CSS for responsive emails, right? 1895 01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:36,200 Like, I mean, I mean not, not the building websites and 1896 01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:40,080 responsive emails is not like something that people should 1897 01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:43,480 pursue. But yeah, it's totally like 1898 01:47:43,480 --> 01:47:48,640 changed my career path, changed my outlook on sort of like on 1899 01:47:48,640 --> 01:47:52,040 the world and sort of like learning about finance, learning 1900 01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:54,000 about economics. So these are these are topics 1901 01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:58,480 that I had very little knowledge about before starting Epicenter 1902 01:47:58,480 --> 01:48:01,480 and like just getting to talk to like incredibly smart people 1903 01:48:01,480 --> 01:48:05,320 every week about, you know all these topics that I thought were 1904 01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:06,840 really pat were really interesting, right. 1905 01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:10,560 That I was really passionate about have just like totally 1906 01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:15,240 changed my outlook. And then and then of course you 1907 01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:17,360 know enabled me to like start software companies. 1908 01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:19,760 So like you know a lot of people know this but I started this 1909 01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:23,120 company called Stratum about five years ago that no longer 1910 01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:25,960 exists. But you know, was was a a 1911 01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:29,880 cryptic company and and now running a fund, right. 1912 01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:33,040 I mean like the fund the Interop Ventures would would not exist 1913 01:48:33,400 --> 01:48:38,120 had it not been for, you know, the time I spent like just 1914 01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:40,480 building a massive network of people in the space. 1915 01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:44,600 So, so yeah, it's been absolutely, you know, life 1916 01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:48,240 changing for me too. It's also humbling, right, 1917 01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:51,800 Because kind of like every other week or so we kind of get to 1918 01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:55,560 speak to someone who is super smart and super passionate, 1919 01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:58,160 passionate about something and kind of really wants to see 1920 01:48:58,160 --> 01:49:00,360 something through. And I think this kind of puts 1921 01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:04,280 kind of like other things that kind of we as as I mean for all 1922 01:49:04,280 --> 01:49:06,320 of us this is kind of a side gig, right. 1923 01:49:06,480 --> 01:49:09,760 So kind of we all have day jobs and I think kind of this puts a 1924 01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:13,400 lot of things into perspective and I think to me that's been, 1925 01:49:14,800 --> 01:49:16,680 that's been a wonderful experience. 1926 01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:20,240 By the way, is Geordie your most frequent guest? 1927 01:49:21,120 --> 01:49:23,680 I think Geordie's had, what, 4 four episodes? 1928 01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:26,840 No, we we we talked about it before the most. 1929 01:49:26,840 --> 01:49:28,400 Frequent guests Can you guess? Can you guess? 1930 01:49:29,240 --> 01:49:32,680 Trent Trent Mcconney for sure. Trent I I feel like Trent's 1931 01:49:32,880 --> 01:49:38,200 almost Co host and and from there Geordie Bellina and maybe 1932 01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:43,880 metallic, I don't know. So, so six episodes is metallic 1933 01:49:44,440 --> 01:49:49,920 emming, Gunther and then Trent. If you found this episode it 1934 01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,960 would would have been a 6th. So he did like 5 full episodes 1935 01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:54,560 and and you know it's dropping in here. 1936 01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:59,880 So I would say kind of, yeah, metallic goon and then Trent. 1937 01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:06,160 That's I mean Vitali, Goon, Trent and Geordie, as your as 1938 01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:10,400 your most popular most frequent guest like that's as good as the 1939 01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:14,160 line up as as you you're going to get like like talk about a a 1940 01:50:14,360 --> 01:50:18,560 a star-studded cast, right? Just a group of legends in this 1941 01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:21,120 game. Just I I would like to to 1942 01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:25,480 explain before before we leave because it's So what I mean I've 1943 01:50:25,480 --> 01:50:29,040 always been in the in the episodes as a as a interview 1944 01:50:29,080 --> 01:50:33,720 with I mean always when they finish the the interview with 1945 01:50:33,720 --> 01:50:39,360 you is I I get with the questions I mean those guys are 1946 01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:44,280 doing the right questions. I mean they are So it's like I 1947 01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:47,240 didn't feel fully comfortable. I mean he's like OK these guys 1948 01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:51,960 are are going to the point are going to the the the the 1949 01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:55,680 questions that are arguable I mean they're going to the values 1950 01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:58,920 and and and and they're going deep to the project to the. 1951 01:50:59,480 --> 01:51:02,480 So the thing that you are talking about and this is this 1952 01:51:02,480 --> 01:51:05,360 is very very very comfortable and I think this is one of the 1953 01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:07,880 one of the secrets of of this podcast. 1954 01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:12,560 I mean it's not when you are there, you are not just I mean 1955 01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:17,280 just just explaining random things to people that you. 1956 01:51:17,440 --> 01:51:21,920 I mean that you go to the point in all the projects and you get 1957 01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:24,760 the feeling when you get that. And that's why I think the 1958 01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:29,200 people love to be here because I mean when where this, with this 1959 01:51:29,200 --> 01:51:32,120 with this cross and with this to me what is like OK you are 1960 01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:35,320 you're asking. I mean it's it's good. 1961 01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:40,760 It's where you really put your your your fox and your your what 1962 01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:43,160 you are building or what you are doing in. 1963 01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,320 They put you the things on the table and you need to explain 1964 01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:49,480 and defend what you are doing and this is, I think this is 1965 01:51:49,480 --> 01:51:53,760 amazing. This means so much doddy, 1966 01:51:53,920 --> 01:51:57,080 especially coming from you. Especially coming from Geordie 1967 01:51:57,080 --> 01:51:59,200 Bowling Island. Yeah, quite a bit more. 1968 01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:03,400 Yes indeed. That's that's what it is. 1969 01:52:04,160 --> 01:52:06,320 Yeah, I think, I think one of the things you know coming back 1970 01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:09,080 to your question really about like how it's changed us. 1971 01:52:09,160 --> 01:52:14,560 I I think for me one of the things that I've noticed is that 1972 01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:17,400 doing the podcast is maybe like a better a much better listener 1973 01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:23,480 and and just the ability to like I find myself and my wife. 1974 01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:26,800 My wife is the first to complain about is always asking questions 1975 01:52:29,120 --> 01:52:30,760 and sometimes asking too many questions. 1976 01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:34,040 But yeah, but I bet you're. Gonna. 1977 01:52:34,200 --> 01:52:36,680 Say bye to my wife's. Complaining that I'm a listener. 1978 01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:41,600 Not complaining about that of all the list of complaints that 1979 01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:43,760 my wife has listener. Not one of them. 1980 01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,520 But no, but like asking a lot of questions, right. 1981 01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:50,560 Like trying to get to the bottom of everything and and and that's 1982 01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:52,480 I think something that I've picked up from from doing the 1983 01:52:52,480 --> 01:52:56,040 podcast for service like asking question over question over 1984 01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:59,200 question to get to the bottom of you know what people are doing 1985 01:52:59,200 --> 01:53:03,800 or how things work or yeah. I'm trying to understand The 1986 01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:05,720 thing is that the point is because I mean you can you can 1987 01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:08,800 they make questions and so on. But it's like you know you're 1988 01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:10,720 trying to understand, you're trying to get to the point, 1989 01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:14,600 you're trying to to to to see what's the nudity that's 1990 01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:17,120 happened here. Why this is important is this 1991 01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:21,360 really is done this way or this other way or or or contrasted 1992 01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:24,480 without different ways to do things And this. 1993 01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,240 I mean I think this means more means means means a lot for 1994 01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:29,640 this. For the people that's listening 1995 01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:30,920 to this. I mean they are learning and 1996 01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:34,120 they are, they are understanding what about the projects and 1997 01:53:34,120 --> 01:53:36,640 what's the point of the project, what's the point of the what the 1998 01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:39,520 people is building. I mean this is value that you're 1999 01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:42,760 adding to liquidity. So this is so. 2000 01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:45,280 Important. Yeah, I I've always thought that 2001 01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:50,600 you guys asked the questions that like as I was listening as 2002 01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:53,800 a capital allocator, you guys had asked the questions that a 2003 01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:58,120 capital allocator should ask. And it's interesting that we've 2004 01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:02,120 watched essentially all of you in some way become capital 2005 01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:06,840 allocators in the space and and that that now in retrospect 2006 01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:10,760 seems obvious because you've been asking the questions of a 2007 01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:12,800 smart money capital allocator for a long time. 2008 01:54:13,440 --> 01:54:17,320 And so you get good at it and you know you start to to get 2009 01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,840 confidence in it and that's better. 2010 01:54:20,840 --> 01:54:26,080 You know, that's been why the long form of your interviews I 2011 01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:30,040 think have have survived and thrived versus versus other 2012 01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:32,760 podcasts that have that have sort of fanned out. 2013 01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:36,120 Well my my other podcast, the interop is basically just the 2014 01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:38,560 forcing function for me to do DD on projects. 2015 01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:41,400 I mean to some extent you know right? 2016 01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:44,840 Like I mean there there more so I mean it's more than that but 2017 01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:49,520 but it it is it it does also serve this this purpose 2018 01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:54,800 sometimes and also to to get a feel for how like for how the 2019 01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:58,440 founder expresses themselves and sort of pitches their product 2020 01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:02,560 and their project outside of a you know like zoom call setting 2021 01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:05,480 right in a more in a more kind of like public facing setting. 2022 01:55:06,320 --> 01:55:08,920 But yeah, Jordy, to come back to what you were saying earlier, 2023 01:55:09,240 --> 01:55:12,280 you know the the asking questions and trying to 2024 01:55:12,280 --> 01:55:15,680 understand how things work, like for me was not always something 2025 01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:19,960 that came naturally. Like in in the first three or 2026 01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:25,400 four years of doing the show I and this changed after after 2027 01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:27,920 some time. I was really coming to the 2028 01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:35,400 podcast, like trying to over prepare in order to give the 2029 01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:38,040 impression that I knew more about the topic that I actually 2030 01:55:38,040 --> 01:55:41,240 did right. And it was sort of like this 2031 01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:45,480 thing where I was I was trying to understand the entirety of 2032 01:55:45,480 --> 01:55:50,440 the of, of, of, of the of the topic at hand in order to to be 2033 01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:54,000 asking smart questions and sort of like look smart. 2034 01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:56,400 But then I realized at some point like this, this is 2035 01:55:56,400 --> 01:55:58,240 absolutely ridiculous. Like this is stupid. 2036 01:55:58,240 --> 01:56:00,200 I should come to the, I should come to this with like you know 2037 01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:03,680 some amount of preparation but but really be asking questions 2038 01:56:03,680 --> 01:56:05,960 as they come, as if I was having a conversation with someone you 2039 01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:10,000 know around the around, around a dinner table or at a bar or 2040 01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:10,480 something. Right. 2041 01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:13,920 And and and that's when that's when I think my whole outlook on 2042 01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:17,480 interviews changes like when I was just sort of like asking 2043 01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:20,680 questions from like a real place of wanting to understand things 2044 01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:24,040 and. Also not being afraid to look 2045 01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:26,280 stupid, right? So basically I always get 2046 01:56:26,280 --> 01:56:28,200 something. It's that was the that was the. 2047 01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:31,880 Fine to ask again because kind of like, yeah, so I I had the 2048 01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:36,080 same fear and yeah, it it, it also took me a while to kind of 2049 01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:38,680 shed it. Yeah, yeah, not not looking 2050 01:56:38,680 --> 01:56:40,720 stupid was a huge fear. Yeah, for a long time. 2051 01:56:41,560 --> 01:56:43,400 Did you guys ever think of shutting it down? 2052 01:56:43,840 --> 01:56:46,200 Is there ever a moment of like, Nah, we're doing too many things 2053 01:56:46,200 --> 01:56:48,320 like, let's wrap this up and do something else. 2054 01:56:49,320 --> 01:56:52,760 Not yet. There's never that conversation. 2055 01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:55,760 So then that leads to the next conversation because you never 2056 01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,320 if you if in 10 years you haven't thought of shutting it 2057 01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:01,600 down, that means that it's likely to survive for the next 2058 01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:03,960 10 years. What do you want out of it for 2059 01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:06,480 the next 10 years? But, but I think kind of what we 2060 01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:09,400 have done is we have added more hosts, right And we we also do 2061 01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:13,000 more solo episodes. So I think kind of like the the 2062 01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:17,000 onus on every one of us has decreased somewhat. 2063 01:57:17,800 --> 01:57:21,960 So because basically back in the day we did an episode, everyone 2064 01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:24,880 did an episode every other week and kind of obviously that 2065 01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:26,880 takes, you know, preparation and so on. 2066 01:57:27,120 --> 01:57:31,640 And now we maybe do an episode every three weeks or so. 2067 01:57:31,640 --> 01:57:34,400 And I think, yeah, so I think kind of the, the overall 2068 01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:37,120 workload is at least for me has decreased. 2069 01:57:37,480 --> 01:57:40,040 Same for you guys, right? Yeah, yeah. 2070 01:57:41,040 --> 01:57:43,280 I just want to become a better capital allocator, Ryan. 2071 01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:45,120 That's that's that's why I keep doing it. 2072 01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:51,120 Yeah, Ryan, in the next 10 years, I would like to have an 2073 01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:59,080 EGA as a Co host and I would like to have built, I would like 2074 01:57:59,080 --> 01:58:04,520 to have built that system. Both of you to assume none of us 2075 01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:09,600 is AI. So we're going to bring on our 2076 01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:11,960 our last guest. We're we're running a little 2077 01:58:11,960 --> 01:58:15,080 long here, but that's great because these have been great 2078 01:58:15,080 --> 01:58:16,320 conversations. So we're going to bring on our 2079 01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:19,800 last guest which is Ryan Muirhead of Fabric Ventures. 2080 01:58:20,720 --> 01:58:24,200 And yeah, welcome, welcome, Ryan. 2081 01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:26,120 Richard, sorry. I got. 2082 01:58:26,440 --> 01:58:28,320 I got upgraded to Ryan there for a second. 2083 01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:30,080 I don't. Know why I called you back? 2084 01:58:30,360 --> 01:58:32,320 So, Richard Muirhead. With the. 2085 01:58:32,520 --> 01:58:37,080 Ryan upgrade. How are you? 2086 01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:39,080 Yeah I'm. I'm super good. 2087 01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:41,840 Thank you everybody. So I've been listening a little 2088 01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:47,880 a bit in the back and I've been listening to the the voices of 2089 01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:50,000 of my youth. Someone already said that they 2090 01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:53,840 kind of yeah, Brian you got outed on a on a on a bus or 2091 01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:58,400 whatever in in Cancun. It has been voice, but it is 2092 01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:00,960 incredible how how you know that that kind of resonates. 2093 01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:04,160 I guess not really my youth, I guess it's my early 40s, but. 2094 01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:08,600 I got. I got I got recognized on the 2095 01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,920 side of a mountain once that was, that was that's a real 2096 01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:12,960 experience. Yeah. 2097 01:59:13,640 --> 01:59:15,600 Yeah, exactly. That's strong. 2098 01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:18,360 I was wondering if Ryan's voice should got graph graph for 2099 01:59:18,360 --> 01:59:27,560 naturally, but I I can see now he's training it with with and 2100 01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:29,040 and. Unless you the chat, you're just 2101 01:59:29,040 --> 01:59:30,960 having this. Now is give give me an idea 2102 01:59:31,280 --> 01:59:34,240 which is like you know if you're Sebastian you you're using it as 2103 01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:40,760 a forcing function of your DD. And if if if voices are so 2104 01:59:40,760 --> 01:59:42,680 important to people they're so emotive. 2105 01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:45,080 You have something like a competition where you have to do 2106 01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:49,200 your capital allocation based on listening to somebody you know 2107 01:59:49,240 --> 01:59:53,160 talk about their project and and just that and you have to kind 2108 01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:54,320 of make the choice and you. Can be a. 2109 01:59:54,320 --> 01:59:56,120 Fantasy capital allocation if you want. 2110 01:59:57,200 --> 02:00:01,600 So it's kind of like a speed day day audio only with no prep. 2111 02:00:02,040 --> 02:00:04,800 And no prep actually it's a that's a benchmark capital thing 2112 02:00:04,800 --> 02:00:08,320 that kind of nobody's allowed to get on prepare for the the pitch 2113 02:00:08,320 --> 02:00:11,240 from the from the from the founders and that kind of weekly 2114 02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:14,800 investment meeting. So this kind of I guess the 2115 02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:17,160 motion is there's a bit of sort of level playing field and no 2116 02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:20,360 preconceptions no cheating and checking stuff up and whatever 2117 02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:23,160 to come out it with an average. So you could you could do a 2118 02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:25,960 little, we could spin that out and make make it into a DAT 2119 02:00:25,960 --> 02:00:29,200 probably. Yeah, that's an interesting. 2120 02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:31,600 Point. Huh. 2121 02:00:32,360 --> 02:00:36,320 Would it be a security? It's be a gang. 2122 02:00:36,320 --> 02:00:39,040 Probably all, probably all security, but. 2123 02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:45,440 Whatever. If you ask Gary now, there's 2124 02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:47,040 one. There's one guy I hope maybe 2125 02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:48,720 we'll have on someday Gary again. 2126 02:00:48,720 --> 02:00:52,680 So that will be fun. For the 20th year anniversary. 2127 02:00:55,040 --> 02:00:57,160 From jail. Elizabeth Warren, maybe. 2128 02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:01,400 I know you get it. I know you got to jump, Jordy, 2129 02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:04,200 as always, it's been such a pleasure and honour to have you 2130 02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:06,520 on. Thank you very much guys and 2131 02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:09,200 Congrats and continue moving forward. 2132 02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:12,120 We are not there yet. On with and. 2133 02:01:12,120 --> 02:01:14,440 Edwards actually. One last thing on that. 2134 02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:18,720 On that Jordy. Yeah, I always take the 2135 02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:21,880 opportunity to publicly thank Jordy for everything that he's 2136 02:01:21,880 --> 02:01:26,320 done in this space. I have no idea just how many 2137 02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:30,920 times Jordy has saved all of our bake that we're all here in part 2138 02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:36,000 because of the benevolent extraordinary talent of of Jordy 2139 02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:40,720 Bellina and so and very, very sincerely thank you for for 2140 02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:44,520 everything you do we're we're incredibly grateful to you what 2141 02:01:44,680 --> 02:01:46,200 but. Leave us, leave us with one 2142 02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:50,120 thing. Where do you want to take ZKEVM 2143 02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:53,840 and what do you want to see in ZKEVM in the next year? 2144 02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:57,360 I want to scale, I want to scale Ethereum. 2145 02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:04,000 So my goal here is so I want to reduce the gas cost of about 50 2146 02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:08,160 X in the next year and that's what I'm working for. 2147 02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:12,560 Compression, compression mainly compression and and faster 2148 02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:19,040 proofs. Is that also like lower lower 2149 02:02:19,040 --> 02:02:23,640 latency proofs, like proofs down to a few bytes? 2150 02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:27,240 Do you think or or or is it going to stay in like KB 2151 02:02:27,240 --> 02:02:28,440 territory or like? Where? 2152 02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:32,880 Where do you can you take it? Lower latency, lower latency, 2153 02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:40,160 it's may so may not be so, I mean it's a good thing to have 2154 02:02:40,200 --> 02:02:42,760 and if you have low latency in the proofs that's of course you 2155 02:02:42,760 --> 02:02:46,040 will get better, better possibility between chains 2156 02:02:46,040 --> 02:02:48,200 mainly. So that's the good thing and we 2157 02:02:48,200 --> 02:02:52,520 are working on that but we are finding ways that you don't 2158 02:02:52,520 --> 02:02:58,560 necessarily need low latency. So for me proofs are more about 2159 02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:04,960 proof cost and and throughput that that the latency because in 2160 02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:09,720 the consensus you can you you can keep the consensus and you 2161 02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:12,280 can have a lot of things in the consensus, in the, in the 2162 02:03:12,280 --> 02:03:14,320 consensus layer, in the temporary consensus layer. 2163 02:03:14,320 --> 02:03:18,560 So Lola that is a very good to have an important thing to have. 2164 02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:23,720 But for throughput and for scalability maybe it's not 100% 2165 02:03:23,960 --> 02:03:28,080 required on that that's I mean this is what we're working on in 2166 02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:30,040 the aggregation layer in in in polygonal. 2167 02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:31,640 This is the things that we're investigating. 2168 02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:36,160 But yeah, I mean regarding the ZKVMI mean we, we want to scale 2169 02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:40,160 Ethereum and we want this to be so people should be able to use 2170 02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:45,240 Ethereum without having to worry about the gas price for most 2171 02:03:45,240 --> 02:03:48,280 applications and this is what we're working on. 2172 02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:51,120 So maybe this is what that Ryan's getting at. 2173 02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:54,480 But but outside of, you know scanning a theory, if you're 2174 02:03:54,480 --> 02:03:58,560 looking at using CK on inferences from large language 2175 02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:01,960 models, the kind of the the kind of presentation layer and the 2176 02:04:01,960 --> 02:04:05,400 user experience, then latency is is involved. 2177 02:04:06,480 --> 02:04:09,600 And so it's interesting looking at the collision between the two 2178 02:04:09,600 --> 02:04:13,960 kind of value chains on the data side and on the on the kind of 2179 02:04:14,160 --> 02:04:18,360 computational, the algorithmic side between blockchain and and 2180 02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:20,360 AI. And I think in some parts of 2181 02:04:20,360 --> 02:04:23,360 that then latency is going to be it'd be critical. 2182 02:04:23,360 --> 02:04:24,280 I don't know if you're looking at that. 2183 02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:29,600 Yeah, the latency, latency, The thing is that in the 44 2184 02:04:29,600 --> 02:04:32,000 usability in general we are talking about latencies that 2185 02:04:32,000 --> 02:04:36,520 goes in about a second few seconds something that's that's 2186 02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:40,760 what usability is, is about. I mean blockchains we are a 2187 02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:44,720 little bit, I mean having a mostly of 15 seconds, we accept 2188 02:04:44,720 --> 02:04:48,600 that in the 30 word for that, but we are talking always about 2189 02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:54,680 few seconds in the proofs. Right now we are in, I mean 2190 02:04:55,680 --> 02:04:57,880 right now we are in about 100 seconds. 2191 02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:01,920 So we need to get one, one or at least one order of magnitude 2192 02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:06,120 better for getting to that phrase. 2193 02:05:06,120 --> 02:05:09,160 I mean it's perfectly possible. I think that in the next year, 2194 02:05:09,160 --> 02:05:12,240 two years this is, will be, it's going to be even better, 2195 02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:15,720 especially for when the hardware, hardware acceleration 2196 02:05:15,880 --> 02:05:20,480 starts hitting. I mean it starts being a reality 2197 02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:21,760 on there. There are some difficulties 2198 02:05:21,760 --> 02:05:23,440 there. It's more about bandwidth and 2199 02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:28,040 special hardware. But yeah, I mean this is the, 2200 02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:32,840 this is the the path that's this is it's not from work that's 2201 02:05:32,840 --> 02:05:35,080 happening right now in the in the Zika space. 2202 02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:40,000 The other place where proof generation speed is really 2203 02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:42,680 important is when you start like using it for privacy stuff, 2204 02:05:42,680 --> 02:05:43,640 right? Because like when you want to 2205 02:05:43,640 --> 02:05:47,440 actually like you know that that actually you needed to be fast 2206 02:05:47,440 --> 02:05:50,200 not to some like on like on consumer level hardware. 2207 02:05:50,440 --> 02:05:52,000 Exactly. I mean it's like level one 2208 02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:54,480 especially when you want to do the mobile phone that's that's 2209 02:05:54,480 --> 02:05:56,760 another that's another front. Yeah. 2210 02:05:56,800 --> 02:06:01,400 I mean when you get the privacy proof in a mobile phone and but 2211 02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:05,240 the cool thing is that I mean the second technology is 2212 02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:09,760 evolving so fast. I mean where we were two years 2213 02:06:09,760 --> 02:06:15,320 ago and where we are now it's it's we we did the two XI mean 2214 02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:19,160 about two orders of magnitude improvement in in the proof 2215 02:06:19,160 --> 02:06:23,240 generate in the last in the last two years And and and this 2216 02:06:23,240 --> 02:06:26,320 happens in the I mean in big servers but this happens also in 2217 02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:30,320 the in in the mobiles. But it has literally not been 2218 02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:35,600 time for building the the libraries for optimized for 2219 02:06:35,600 --> 02:06:39,040 mobiles. I mean we're building those now 2220 02:06:39,120 --> 02:06:44,520 and and and this is happening at this point and I mean we are 2221 02:06:44,520 --> 02:06:47,640 seeing a point that the the technology is advancing so fast 2222 02:06:47,640 --> 02:06:50,080 that the engineering that engineering is going fast 2223 02:06:51,360 --> 02:06:53,880 cannot. I mean it requires it's time to 2224 02:06:53,880 --> 02:06:56,920 build all these things and and I mean we've seen that that that 2225 02:06:57,200 --> 02:07:02,160 the investigation the the the research is going faster than 2226 02:07:02,160 --> 02:07:07,480 the engineering currently which is interesting interesting it's 2227 02:07:07,480 --> 02:07:11,160 interesting more because this is not is in general doesn't that 2228 02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,680 doesn't used to happen. So consumer privacy on the on 2229 02:07:14,680 --> 02:07:17,040 the device was kind of what I was getting at with, you know, 2230 02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:20,320 imprints for LLMS. So I think it's a really 2231 02:07:20,320 --> 02:07:23,240 interesting use case. But so I'm interested, Jordy, 2232 02:07:23,240 --> 02:07:25,840 are you looking at hardware acceleration that might be 2233 02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:32,240 necessary on the consumer device itself or you're not, Yeah, 2234 02:07:32,240 --> 02:07:36,760 looking. I mean, I think that not 2235 02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:41,560 necessarily maybe I mean here maybe the mobile mobile phone, 2236 02:07:41,560 --> 02:07:45,160 maybe it will take like I don't know, maybe 30 seconds to build 2237 02:07:45,160 --> 02:07:47,000 the proof. I mean if you accept that which 2238 02:07:47,000 --> 02:07:51,960 is in most of the cases this is could be acceptable you can 2239 02:07:51,960 --> 02:07:53,880 actually build depending what you want to prove. 2240 02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:58,520 But I mean you can build the privacy privacy proof relatively 2241 02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:05,120 relatively easy privacy complex privacy proof on there no prima 2242 02:08:05,120 --> 02:08:09,240 Aztec is working a lot that on on on that front and here 2243 02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:13,120 porting all the Starks things that we're building to the to 2244 02:08:13,120 --> 02:08:15,880 the to the mobile phones this is our happening. 2245 02:08:16,120 --> 02:08:18,280 Of course you have hardware acceleration that's that's 2246 02:08:18,280 --> 02:08:19,560 better. But in general the problem is 2247 02:08:19,560 --> 02:08:22,320 that I mean hardware is a long process. 2248 02:08:22,320 --> 02:08:26,880 I mean building an ASIC, this is at least at least a one year, 2249 02:08:26,960 --> 02:08:31,160 one year, two years project itself And and what happened now 2250 02:08:31,160 --> 02:08:35,960 is that in two years in crypto there is a new protocol that's 2251 02:08:35,960 --> 02:08:39,880 using something different that have to throw it away what you 2252 02:08:39,880 --> 02:08:42,840 have been investing, investing. I was going to say before crypto 2253 02:08:42,840 --> 02:08:45,200 one or two years wasn't too bad, but now with crypto it's a 2254 02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:49,280 problem. But at some point this will, 2255 02:08:49,360 --> 02:08:55,640 this will get more stable and yeah, but not no, no, I mean 2256 02:08:55,800 --> 02:08:59,000 we're seeing here things. I mean two years, I mean two, 2257 02:08:59,240 --> 02:09:02,440 one month ago, two months ago there was this B News thing. 2258 02:09:02,440 --> 02:09:04,720 I mean all these stars with binary fields. 2259 02:09:04,720 --> 02:09:09,720 I mean super interesting and but this has already changed what we 2260 02:09:09,720 --> 02:09:14,880 were doing now with prime fields the Starks but I mean things are 2261 02:09:14,880 --> 02:09:18,520 happening and and and you need to to check or you want 2262 02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:21,800 recovering all protocols like I mean linear people recovering 2263 02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:25,640 the GD, KS, the GKRS algorithms I mean they are putting them 2264 02:09:25,640 --> 02:09:28,360 together it's a lot of things happening. 2265 02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:31,640 So for example here investing a lot in hardware is I would say 2266 02:09:31,640 --> 02:09:35,360 is quite risky because technology is changing a lot. 2267 02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:41,080 So you don't know for sure what's going to be the right way 2268 02:09:41,320 --> 02:09:47,400 to do and I mean the OR prover itself I mean was super fast but 2269 02:09:47,600 --> 02:09:49,800 next generation that we are building is even faster. 2270 02:09:49,800 --> 02:09:53,480 So it's it's it's you're discovering a lot of small 2271 02:09:53,480 --> 02:09:55,160 tricks and a lot of things that are happening. 2272 02:09:55,160 --> 02:10:00,840 So it's it's going really fast and and and and keeping up from 2273 02:10:00,840 --> 02:10:03,760 the engineering perspective, I mean keeping up in all the new 2274 02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:09,800 things that are happening is, is, is it's not easy and even 2275 02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:12,560 selecting them, I mean there are so many research and then OK 2276 02:10:12,880 --> 02:10:15,320 this thing is is a good thing or is not a good thing. 2277 02:10:15,320 --> 02:10:18,400 And sometimes you need to go really deep and actually 2278 02:10:18,400 --> 02:10:22,920 implement there and then you realize that maybe that's not as 2279 02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:28,480 fast as it's promised and then you need to step back or then 2280 02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:34,680 somebody just it gets with a with a trick that OK, but doing 2281 02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:37,360 this, this thing this way, then this is super fast and and then 2282 02:10:37,360 --> 02:10:39,200 you, you come back and this is the. 2283 02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:42,680 I mean you're going back and forth all the time. 2284 02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:44,400 Yeah. I mean this is this is the this 2285 02:10:45,080 --> 02:10:49,840 is the crypto the the crypto craziness when you are 2286 02:10:50,200 --> 02:10:51,840 developing and when you're in this space. 2287 02:10:51,920 --> 02:10:54,080 But this is also the good thing. I mean this is amazing. 2288 02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:56,360 I mean, for engineering perspective, this is a it's a 2289 02:10:56,360 --> 02:11:00,200 heaven. So so I heard Brian say that he 2290 02:11:00,200 --> 02:11:02,760 had the prediction episode at the beginning of 2014. 2291 02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:06,760 I don't remember listening to to to that one but I I did. 2292 02:11:07,680 --> 02:11:11,920 I do remember the Tom Cruise episode and I went back and 2293 02:11:11,920 --> 02:11:16,680 listened to it and and and do you remember Brian you like you 2294 02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:20,760 noticed you know you you actually sort of you you 2295 02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:23,880 basically said a few things about like more all this 2296 02:11:23,880 --> 02:11:25,960 Ethereum thing sounds like science fiction. 2297 02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:28,800 It's all going to become a kind of reality and they're they're 2298 02:11:28,800 --> 02:11:30,760 going to be these agents are going to be able to transact 2299 02:11:30,760 --> 02:11:33,920 economically on our behalf. But the real problem is that 2300 02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:36,840 we're not being able to get the accurate data to them to make 2301 02:11:36,840 --> 02:11:39,840 sure that they you know they they represent our needs in the 2302 02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:41,960 right way. And I think I think that's the 2303 02:11:41,960 --> 02:11:45,240 thing that was pretty sort of that showed great foresight I 2304 02:11:45,240 --> 02:11:49,440 guess in generally generally go there like sometime early 2014. 2305 02:11:50,200 --> 02:11:53,000 You also said you were you were pretty skeptical involving in 2306 02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:54,920 Ethereum. I don't actually remember that. 2307 02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:58,160 About what? Investing in Ethereum seemed a 2308 02:11:58,160 --> 02:12:01,880 bit seemed a bit complex. Oh, did I say that? 2309 02:12:03,640 --> 02:12:05,600 I got to go back and listen to these episodes. 2310 02:12:06,480 --> 02:12:09,720 I think that was episode three. It was like Tom Cruise fights to 2311 02:12:09,720 --> 02:12:12,000 protect the blockchain. I don't remember why we called 2312 02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:14,480 it that. Maybe because maybe because 2313 02:12:14,560 --> 02:12:18,120 during the episode we like fantasized about a Tom Cruise 2314 02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:20,320 movie where he was protecting the block's head or something 2315 02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:23,320 He. Was a he was a tiny sliver with 2316 02:12:23,320 --> 02:12:25,840 something to do with what how metallic could pitch the theory. 2317 02:12:25,840 --> 02:12:30,600 But anyway it's like you were rather kind of bizarre contact 2318 02:12:30,840 --> 02:12:33,320 and so the other had too much regulatory content for me. 2319 02:12:33,320 --> 02:12:37,680 I couldn't get into the on let's talk Bitcoin at at walking you 2320 02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:41,680 through stuff, you know. We, we did have a lot of 2321 02:12:41,680 --> 02:12:43,400 regulatory content at the beginning, yeah. 2322 02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:47,840 Yeah. Jordy, I know you have to. 2323 02:12:48,200 --> 02:12:49,640 Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. 2324 02:12:49,640 --> 02:12:50,560 It's been a pleasure. Having you. 2325 02:12:50,600 --> 02:12:51,840 Thank you so much. Bye. 2326 02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:57,720 Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I guess this whole thing of, yeah, 2327 02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:01,200 agents acting on the blockchain, it still doesn't exist quite 2328 02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:03,640 right for people to have that kind of thing with. 2329 02:13:04,280 --> 02:13:06,320 Feels like we're getting closer slowly. 2330 02:13:06,320 --> 02:13:10,120 No, I mean it doesn't, it doesn't exist yet. 2331 02:13:10,120 --> 02:13:12,040 But I mean there's a lot of people now kind of innovating 2332 02:13:12,040 --> 02:13:16,280 obviously with LLMS to kind of build those you know Yeah bots 2333 02:13:16,280 --> 02:13:21,000 that will kind of represent your interest or you can talk to and 2334 02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:23,400 and you and you feel like you're you know having a personal 2335 02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:24,680 conversation with you or whatever. 2336 02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:28,480 So but I guess whether or not that's will require some 2337 02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:31,800 intersection of AI and and blockchain depends on whether 2338 02:13:32,640 --> 02:13:37,480 how foolhardy we are as humans. Like I mean whether we just we 2339 02:13:37,600 --> 02:13:41,320 start trusting these bots out there in the same way as we're 2340 02:13:41,320 --> 02:13:43,800 trusting the big brands of of Web 2. 2341 02:13:44,360 --> 02:13:46,440 You know just a kind of a general social consensus. 2342 02:13:46,440 --> 02:13:50,080 Oh it's a bot built by so and so that's fine I'll I'll work with 2343 02:13:50,080 --> 02:13:54,000 it not knowing how it's being trained or whether you know when 2344 02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:55,960 it's doing with any of your personal data. 2345 02:13:56,360 --> 02:13:59,280 OK that that's one of the big debates And then give of of 2346 02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:03,760 today how we're going to make sure that we don't kind of sort 2347 02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:08,000 of further fuel the the technofeudalism then you know in 2348 02:14:08,480 --> 02:14:11,440 this in this next phase you know whether web three can actually 2349 02:14:11,440 --> 02:14:14,080 sort of help AI to to any degree. 2350 02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:17,240 But there's and there's another side on the box which is that I 2351 02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,560 mean I don't think any of us would say that love to hear 2352 02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:23,880 opinions on it that that kind of decentralized governance has 2353 02:14:23,880 --> 02:14:26,080 quite got to kind of mainstream yet. 2354 02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:31,560 So simple governance, still pretty complex to handle and and 2355 02:14:31,560 --> 02:14:33,360 so the. Technically speaking or socially 2356 02:14:33,360 --> 02:14:36,400 speaking, do you think it's a technical problem or a social 2357 02:14:36,400 --> 02:14:38,960 problem? That means it's definitely a 2358 02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:42,680 social problem. But also a mechanism design 2359 02:14:42,680 --> 02:14:46,720 problem. No, also mechanism design 2360 02:14:46,720 --> 02:14:48,600 problem. So I think kind of like the 2361 02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:51,760 simple Dal models that we have now basically they all don't 2362 02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:56,000 appreciate that attention is kind of the scarce resource 2363 02:14:56,120 --> 02:14:57,800 here. I think this is something that 2364 02:14:57,800 --> 02:15:00,440 Dallas Tech had figured out super early on. 2365 02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:04,400 Unfortunately, they went out of business. 2366 02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:08,680 But yeah, I I look forward to kind of having those sorts of 2367 02:15:08,720 --> 02:15:11,280 efforts back. Well well I think some of us 2368 02:15:11,280 --> 02:15:15,640 come into any of that you know Co founder at near where who's 2369 02:15:15,640 --> 02:15:20,560 got a great LLM background he he he talks you know openly now 2370 02:15:20,560 --> 02:15:26,040 about the desire to commit Guild you know Dow presidents in the 2371 02:15:26,040 --> 02:15:30,240 in bot form so that you can delegate you know to some 2372 02:15:30,240 --> 02:15:33,080 intelligent agents to of various different descriptions to 2373 02:15:33,080 --> 02:15:35,040 represent. Because there's no way if we 2374 02:15:35,040 --> 02:15:38,240 have, if we're going to have corporations as codes popping up 2375 02:15:38,240 --> 02:15:43,400 everywhere and we're going to be interested in for some sliver of 2376 02:15:43,400 --> 02:15:47,480 our existence in the the effect of governance in those, you 2377 02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:50,640 know, dowels or DAX or whatever, then you know there's it can 2378 02:15:50,640 --> 02:15:52,280 only scan. If we're going to. 2379 02:15:52,680 --> 02:15:55,240 Must these these these twins in years? 2380 02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:58,240 Yeah, absolutely. So basically specifying your 2381 02:15:58,240 --> 02:16:02,200 values or kind of having an AI extract your values for you and 2382 02:16:02,200 --> 02:16:05,520 kind of your economic interests and so on, and then kind of 2383 02:16:05,920 --> 02:16:08,760 doing kind of like a liquid delegation to those kinds of 2384 02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:10,840 AIS. Yeah, absolutely, totally with 2385 02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:13,640 you here. Yeah, 100%. 2386 02:16:14,160 --> 02:16:18,640 Yeah, I mean personally I feel like in the in the Cosmos space, 2387 02:16:18,640 --> 02:16:21,960 Garland's working like pretty well, right. 2388 02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:25,040 I mean I think we have like Cosmos hubs at like 800 2389 02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:30,600 governance proposals, osmosis, tons of governance proposals and 2390 02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:34,280 with like, you know, high participation both in terms of 2391 02:16:34,280 --> 02:16:37,080 you know, stake that's voting. So it's like secure from some 2392 02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:41,559 whale coming in and like, you know, like there's often on 2393 02:16:41,559 --> 02:16:44,400 Ethereum mapping it in dollars, like you'd have like 3 percent, 2394 02:16:44,400 --> 02:16:47,200 5% of dollar tokens voting in governance and then you know 2395 02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:50,480 some big whale can come and execute a vote, but you don't 2396 02:16:50,480 --> 02:16:52,320 have that issue in the Cosmos governance thing. 2397 02:16:52,320 --> 02:16:55,600 And then we have, you know, regularly definitely like 2398 02:16:55,799 --> 02:16:58,200 thousands of accounts. I mean there's always a lot of 2399 02:16:58,200 --> 02:17:00,840 like bought accounts voting too. I mean, Sunny probably has 2400 02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:03,200 better idea on this, but there's definitely a lot of people 2401 02:17:03,200 --> 02:17:07,400 participating in these boats and and I feel that's actually 2402 02:17:07,400 --> 02:17:14,400 working pretty well, Yeah. Ryan, I think you need to run. 2403 02:17:14,480 --> 02:17:15,840 We're gonna. I knew guys. 2404 02:17:15,879 --> 02:17:17,559 Proper sign off. Thanks SO. 2405 02:17:17,559 --> 02:17:18,959 Much thank you so much. Joining. 2406 02:17:19,400 --> 02:17:21,280 Joy to Steel. Loyal, listening all these years 2407 02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:24,320 and yeah. Well, thank you guys for for 2408 02:17:24,320 --> 02:17:27,080 everything you do, for the important education, the like 2409 02:17:27,080 --> 02:17:29,840 technically sophisticated education that you provide to 2410 02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:34,480 this, this ecosystem. It is very important, more 2411 02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:37,959 important than you know. And so I'm incredibly grateful 2412 02:17:37,959 --> 02:17:42,040 to all of you for keeping faith and keeping with it, and just 2413 02:17:42,040 --> 02:17:43,559 compounding on all of our knowledge. 2414 02:17:44,000 --> 02:17:47,360 And so thanks again. I think I think that. 2415 02:17:47,480 --> 02:17:49,559 Thanks and. Also by helping with all the 2416 02:17:49,559 --> 02:17:55,200 weekly shopping trips and showers in front, getting people 2417 02:17:55,440 --> 02:17:57,840 from. Thanks so much, Ryan. 2418 02:17:59,080 --> 02:18:01,959 Great. Well, I think, I think we're, 2419 02:18:02,160 --> 02:18:05,280 we're about ready to wrap up, wrap this party up. 2420 02:18:05,440 --> 02:18:10,120 It's been 2 1/2 hours. Thanks for thanks for sticking 2421 02:18:10,120 --> 02:18:13,600 around, Richard. So, yeah, where do we go from 2422 02:18:13,600 --> 02:18:16,840 here? What's are we shooting for 20 2423 02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:17,840 years? Is that what we're doing? 2424 02:18:18,600 --> 02:18:23,360 Yeah. We're not not just one AI host 2425 02:18:23,360 --> 02:18:26,000 but just all of you. It's you know back back to the 2426 02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:28,160 previous conversations. You're just going to capture 2427 02:18:28,160 --> 02:18:31,400 generally your values and your interests and and it and it. 2428 02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:34,120 The bot sort of sucks up everything you're you're reading 2429 02:18:34,120 --> 02:18:37,400 as you go along through your glasses or contact lenses and 2430 02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:39,799 then you can you need. You don't have to do it at all. 2431 02:18:39,799 --> 02:18:42,680 You can be doing like 10 podcasts a day. 2432 02:18:42,840 --> 02:18:46,959 Each guy that's so they can then go forever. 2433 02:18:49,080 --> 02:18:51,520 Well, I I wish I could even I wish I could do three, because 2434 02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:57,120 sometimes 2 is too much. And we could actually synthesize 2435 02:18:57,120 --> 02:18:59,080 a much better podcast host, right? 2436 02:18:59,160 --> 02:19:01,840 I mean, basically we could take like the good parts of all of us 2437 02:19:02,280 --> 02:19:06,120 and you know, synthesize them into, you know? 2438 02:19:07,400 --> 02:19:10,400 My hair is working on this. Yeah, exactly like Like the 2439 02:19:10,600 --> 02:19:15,400 thing I do is I would for a project, I would collect the 2440 02:19:15,400 --> 02:19:20,400 entire sort of information about the project, my paper, website, 2441 02:19:20,400 --> 02:19:23,760 the entire code base. I would put everything in a 2442 02:19:24,040 --> 02:19:26,120 retrieval augmented generation pipeline. 2443 02:19:26,959 --> 02:19:31,160 And then it's like figure out how to simulate Frederica, how 2444 02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:35,760 to simulate my head, like somehow like fine tune an LLM so 2445 02:19:35,760 --> 02:19:38,520 that it is able to simulate me and then it's able to ask 2446 02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:42,920 questions from the documentation and generate an episode by 2447 02:19:42,920 --> 02:19:45,080 itself, right? Like and. 2448 02:19:45,080 --> 02:19:52,360 Then when can I invest? When can I allocate capital more 2449 02:19:52,360 --> 02:19:54,840 than seller than Wafa? That's always the key question. 2450 02:19:56,080 --> 02:20:00,440 It's also funny how how you kind of become an LLM rapper for your 2451 02:20:00,440 --> 02:20:04,120 Co host to a certain extent. So kind of depending on who I 2452 02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:06,840 host with, I know what they're going to ask next. 2453 02:20:06,960 --> 02:20:11,040 So kind of I have like this LLM representation of them inside my 2454 02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:17,880 head and yeah. So before we end this are there 2455 02:20:17,880 --> 02:20:22,600 any any final thoughts anything anybody especially wants to 2456 02:20:22,600 --> 02:20:25,600 share. Well I mean if nobody's coming 2457 02:20:25,600 --> 02:20:27,440 to you I I do I like the. Yeah. 2458 02:20:27,440 --> 02:20:30,440 I mean I I just want to say like I absolutely appreciate all of 2459 02:20:30,440 --> 02:20:32,800 you. I've loved doing the podcast 2460 02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:36,080 with with all of you. I mean it's it's it's always 2461 02:20:36,120 --> 02:20:39,000 it's what's great about Epicenter is like I think we all 2462 02:20:39,000 --> 02:20:42,160 have like like you were saying for like you know we all have 2463 02:20:42,160 --> 02:20:43,520 this sort of like dynamic, right. 2464 02:20:43,520 --> 02:20:47,600 So there are you know N number of dynamics here when when we 2465 02:20:47,600 --> 02:20:50,520 all sort of like do podcasts together and that's been really 2466 02:20:50,520 --> 02:20:55,720 fun and I really appreciate like yeah getting to learn so much 2467 02:20:55,720 --> 02:20:59,080 from you know being able to Co host the podcast with with all 2468 02:20:59,080 --> 02:21:02,960 your weeks. So yeah, hope, I hope we I can 2469 02:21:02,960 --> 02:21:04,920 keep doing this with you guys for for the next 10 years. 2470 02:21:06,240 --> 02:21:07,080 Absolutely. What? 2471 02:21:10,640 --> 02:21:11,880 What? Does. 2472 02:21:12,840 --> 02:21:15,880 This what does this work. I don't even know that works. 2473 02:21:15,880 --> 02:21:18,320 That's crazy. The heart now I. 2474 02:21:18,720 --> 02:21:19,920 Want that high? It's a pause here. 2475 02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:24,840 We go, Here we go. You you have to update your Mac. 2476 02:21:26,920 --> 02:21:30,960 So before before we end this it, it wouldn't be a 10 year 2477 02:21:30,960 --> 02:21:35,400 anniversary episode without the obligatory Green Day Good 2478 02:21:35,400 --> 02:21:39,720 riddance time of your life photo slideshow. 2479 02:21:40,800 --> 02:21:43,280 So. I had no idea this was coming. 2480 02:21:44,560 --> 02:21:53,720 OK, room 77. I had to add Felix in here at 2481 02:21:53,720 --> 02:21:58,080 the end I. Saw that I knew. 2482 02:22:01,520 --> 02:22:03,600 There's no, come on, six of us, right? 2483 02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:06,880 No, there isn't. But there is now. 2484 02:22:10,320 --> 02:22:13,920 I think she like like a little bit larger than the, you know, 2485 02:22:13,920 --> 02:22:16,120 in terms of kind of like body proportions. 2486 02:22:16,120 --> 02:22:19,120 I think kind of we have to shrink him down by like 10%. 2487 02:22:19,120 --> 02:22:20,360 I have some. There. 2488 02:22:20,360 --> 02:22:24,600 On my arm too, it's sunny. Let's, let's. 2489 02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:26,880 Shrink him by Let's shrink him by 40%. 2490 02:22:33,360 --> 02:22:38,440 Oh gosh, yeah, yeah. Hope you guys like that is I had 2491 02:22:38,440 --> 02:22:40,920 a bunch of pictures from that was super cool in the years I. 2492 02:22:41,200 --> 02:22:42,800 Appreciate you putting this together, Steve. 2493 02:22:43,440 --> 02:22:47,320 Yeah, well, you could, you could thank iOS for that, throw a 2494 02:22:47,320 --> 02:22:49,800 bunch of pictures into into Apple Photos on there. 2495 02:22:49,880 --> 02:22:53,400 Yeah, great guys. Well, thanks. 2496 02:22:53,960 --> 02:22:55,160 Thanks for everybody who tuned in. 2497 02:22:55,160 --> 02:22:57,600 There's been tons of people here in live stream. 2498 02:22:58,360 --> 02:23:02,760 I think we probably like hit 22300 people in live stream over 2499 02:23:02,760 --> 02:23:05,680 the course of the the 2 1/2 hours. 2500 02:23:06,640 --> 02:23:12,560 So, yeah, thank you and we'll be back next week as always. 2501 02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:17,240 As every week except for the one week that we missed. 2502 02:23:17,720 --> 02:23:19,600 That's right. Oh, that was my last. 2503 02:23:19,600 --> 02:23:21,240 That was that was my last trivia question. 2504 02:23:22,600 --> 02:23:25,560 Oh, I I know this one. You know this one? 2505 02:23:25,840 --> 02:23:30,480 Christmas week 20, I don't know, 19. 2506 02:23:30,480 --> 02:23:31,880 I I know it's definitely Christmas week. 2507 02:23:32,440 --> 02:23:33,840 Yeah. I was so upset. 2508 02:23:33,840 --> 02:23:34,960 I was sad. I cried. 2509 02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:41,480 Well, we won't miss this this Christmas week. 2510 02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:44,280 That's And then we and then we reran the David Chaum episode. 2511 02:23:44,400 --> 02:23:46,680 Remember that. No, no, no, no, it wasn't David 2512 02:23:46,680 --> 02:23:48,600 Chaum it. Wasn't David Chaum, was it? 2513 02:23:48,800 --> 02:23:49,680 No it. Was. 2514 02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:55,080 Yeah, OK. OK, so some Ogi remember that 2515 02:23:57,520 --> 02:23:59,440 we're like, all right, this is an Evergreen episode. 2516 02:23:59,440 --> 02:24:01,920 We can run it anytime. Yeah, yeah. 2517 02:24:02,080 --> 02:24:03,960 He was over then. He was over now. 2518 02:24:03,960 --> 02:24:12,240 No one will. All right. 2519 02:24:12,880 --> 02:24:14,880 How are you doing guys? Thanks, bye. 2520 02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:19,760 Thanks everyone. Thank you for joining us on this 2521 02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:22,120 week's episode. We release new episodes every 2522 02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:24,120 week. You can find and subscribe to 2523 02:24:24,120 --> 02:24:27,920 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 2524 02:24:27,920 --> 02:24:30,320 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 2525 02:24:30,320 --> 02:24:33,120 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 2526 02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:37,120 the Epicenter podcast, go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for a 2527 02:24:37,120 --> 02:24:38,800 full list of places where you can watch and listen. 2528 02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:41,680 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 2529 02:24:41,680 --> 02:24:44,040 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 2530 02:24:44,040 --> 02:24:47,360 If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast 2531 02:24:47,360 --> 02:24:50,160 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter and please leave us a 2532 02:24:50,160 --> 02:24:52,160 review on iTunes. It helps people find the show 2533 02:24:52,400 --> 02:24:53,520 and we're always happy to read them. 2534 02:24:54,320 --> 02:24:56,880 But thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.