1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:04,500 This is epicenter episode 472 with guest Frederick Agha. 2 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,100 Welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the 3 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:24,200 Technologies project and people driving decentralization and the 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,100 blockchain revolution. I'm Felix. 5 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:27,900 And I'm here with free tarika errands today. 6 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:29,900 Today, we're speaking with Frederick haga. 7 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:31,900 Who is the co-founder of Dune analytics? 8 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:35,000 Doing is an analytics platform focused on blockchain Data. 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,500 Before we talked with Frederick about genetics, we'd like to 10 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:40,300 tell you about our sponsors this week. 11 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:44,000 Omni is your new favorite multi-chain, Mobile Wallet only 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,600 supports more than 25 protocols, so you can manage all of your 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,100 assets in one place, across all major EVMS, layer 2, is ZK sink, 14 00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:53,100 and starting it coming soon and non EVMS. 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,500 But what's really special about obvious that you can do. 16 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:57,800 All the most important things in web three directly within the 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,900 wallet itself, want to get healed. 18 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:02,900 Omni allows you to get the best apis with zero fees in three 19 00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:07,000 tabs beats taking liquid staking lending or yield vaults. 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,000 Need to exchange u.s. 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Your Hardware voltage join tens 32 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,400 of thousands of this next generation. 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,200 Will it by downloading it today on iOS or Android at Omni dot 34 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,100 app. So welcome, Frederick to 35 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:51,800 epicenter. Thank you so much, very excited 36 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,200 to be here. Epicenter was one of my first 37 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,500 name means forces for understanding this crypto world 38 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:58,900 when I got excited about it back in 2015. 39 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,600 So cool to be here. Yeah, awesome. 40 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,600 I think we actually met at a epicenter of meet up in Def con 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,000 for in Prague. So, Really awesome to have you 42 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,500 on today and obviously you come a long way. 43 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:14,600 And I think that's also where we wanted to start, right? 44 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,500 Like basically how did you come up with the idea for doing kind 45 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:20,500 of like can explain a little bit? 46 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:22,900 What is you? And how did you get into crypto 47 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:27,200 and to build, Dune for sure. Yeah. 48 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,600 So me and my co-founder we were working at the big company back 49 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,300 in 2017 when the sort of hype happened. 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,700 For the I co-creation all that and we I was working full-time 51 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:45,100 on blockchain. I was already interested and 52 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:48,700 managed to sort of work on it because of all the interest and 53 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:53,500 then I met my co-founder. He was also interested and we 54 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,000 ended up forming a small team, doing a lot of prototypes and 55 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,200 playing around with blockchain and and building on the theorem 56 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,400 first and foremost and build prototypes and did hackathons 57 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,200 and all that. And then over time, we realized 58 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,500 that Third during the Spring of 2018 that, you know, the hype is 59 00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:13,800 kind of dying and people are not that interested anymore. 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,800 And this technology is still very young and clunky. 61 00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:19,300 And so like this big Corporation might not be that interested 62 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,600 anymore, which was fine and understandable honestly. 63 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:27,700 So but we were nevertheless just as excited about the technology 64 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:31,800 and the potential for open finance and programmable assets 65 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,300 on the internet and whatnot. So we started thinking about 66 00:03:35,300 --> 00:03:36,700 problems to be solved. Really? 67 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,900 Space. And we had since we had built 68 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:41,800 and deployed some smart contract, we knew that getting 69 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,200 the data was was pretty clunky and hard and so that kind of 70 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:53,600 what seed the idea for starting June and then over time, we also 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,500 understood that the fact that this data is inherently open. 72 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:59,900 It's like a total game changer for how you can build data 73 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:04,800 product in this space and you know it's a huge Paradigm Shift 74 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,400 worse, previously all day. And all data tools is like in 75 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,300 closed environments like inside the and, you know, engineering 76 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:18,800 or product organization building web to product or inside of a 77 00:04:18,808 --> 00:04:22,200 financial institution and the name of the game is really close 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,700 to the building tools around proprietary data sets and 79 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:29,400 whatnot. And so, I think that the thing 80 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,800 that we understood pretty early on was that, oh, when the data 81 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,000 is open like you can actually aggregate, you know, a Aggregate 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,800 all of this knowledge and building that people do in the 83 00:04:40,808 --> 00:04:46,500 space as opposed to defaulting to to private and we sort of 84 00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:49,000 flipped it on its head and set its default public, right? 85 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:52,100 So that's kind of how we got started in. 86 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:55,100 And in the beginning, it was like really hard impossible to 87 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,000 raise any funds. We didn't have a salary for many 88 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,700 months and yeah, we traveled to a few of these, like, if a 89 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:03,300 ketones and I've come and whatnot on like, very tiny 90 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:08,300 budget, sharing Hotel bedrooms Watson me and just Try to find 91 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:10,100 anyone that wouldn't was interested. 92 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:14,600 It was hard because not that many products were actually live 93 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,200 with the usable products at the time, right? 94 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:23,100 So, the sort of Market was small, but they were dedicated 95 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:25,800 group of people that kept building and we're excited. 96 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:30,200 And those were the ones we tried to serve and think that has 97 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,000 turned out to be a good idea to bet on the people also betting 98 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,700 on this future. So in a way what you've done 99 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:43,800 this kind of you've aggregated a an enormous database that people 100 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,200 can easily carry right? And basically your products kind 101 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,800 of fall into two divisions. So the dashboards and the API, 102 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:54,900 can you kind of talk about the distinction between those and 103 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:58,200 what exactly they offer? Sure. 104 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,200 So In its simplest form. What we do is we take data from 105 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,400 the blockchain nodes, we put it in a database, we do some 106 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,600 transformations to make it easier to work with. 107 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,100 So you have Smart contract events, you have other 108 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:16,700 abstractions on top of that as well, so you can see how this is 109 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:20,200 a unit of trade. But you can also say, oh, here's 110 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,900 a table with all the trades from all the decks has and, you know, 111 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:27,900 easily query that. So, we put a lot of effort into 112 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,500 good, sort of data, ux And what we do then is to allow anyone to 113 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:36,400 go to our website. Browse all these tables write 114 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,900 SQL queries on top of it, get results and then visualize it 115 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:45,600 and turn it into dashboards. And and I guess what I alluded 116 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,100 to earlier is the fact that this is all public by default. 117 00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:50,300 So if you go on doing, you do something, someone else can see 118 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:53,800 it, they can see the sequel. They can Fork it, they can make 119 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,200 their own version and whatnot. So, it's all kind of remixable 120 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,400 open for anyone to, to On top of each other and then also we're 121 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,400 about to launch an API product, which has been highly demanded 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,800 for a long time. And essentially, you know, take 123 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,300 any of these endpoints, that underpin, these dashboards and 124 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:20,700 query results and turn it into programmatic programmatically 125 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,200 accessible API endpoints, which I think is going to be a massive 126 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,900 enabler for a lot of people to not have to do all of this, 127 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:31,100 tedious data infrastructure and Maintain so pipelines and 128 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:37,000 whatnot to, to query this data. Yeah, we're going to get a bit 129 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,800 into like, what the use cases are. 130 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,500 I think one question that maybe people are interested in is 131 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,800 like, if you talk about the dashboards, obviously we have a 132 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,200 lot on doin. Do you have a favorite dashboard 133 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,000 yourself and then which one is it? 134 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,800 So, I've had a favorite for a while and I think it's maybe 135 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,700 even more fashionable right now, which is maker dolls, balance 136 00:07:59,700 --> 00:08:05,600 sheet built on Dune and I think this was a particularly exciting 137 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,700 example, I think they built it out a couple years ago, really, 138 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,900 but the fact that you can have a real-time balance sheet feeding 139 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:17,000 from the blockchain that anyone in the world can go and look at 140 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,400 on a website and they can see what which query created this. 141 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,700 Balance sheet. And you know, if you don't like 142 00:08:23,700 --> 00:08:26,400 it, you can Fork it and you can massage it, right? 143 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,200 So it's it's really very scrutinized ssible and the fact 144 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,600 that it's real time and you can see which assets, which 145 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,400 liability is all these things and the revenue right block for 146 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,500 block, you can see the revenue coming in and so you can do like 147 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:45,300 all the way from like Financial auditing to even investing. 148 00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:48,400 And you can say, oh, I can have a real time price to earnings 149 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,400 ratio for the maker token, right? 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,300 You can look at that met. Break that analysts in the 151 00:08:53,308 --> 00:08:57,300 traditional Equity world would figure out once four times a 152 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:58,800 year. Whenever the PDF drops, you 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,500 could say, oh, now that it's priced this relative to their 154 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,100 last quarter earnings, right? But like, literally you can do 155 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:07,500 that every 12 seconds only to block chain with with a dune 156 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:10,200 dashboard. And I think this was very 157 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,000 Illuminating because it displayed, you know, people have 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,300 been looking at all kinds of weird metrics on dude. 159 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:20,500 But this displayed, you know, the old world, kind of, but in 160 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:23,000 this new world of Our cellular on blockchains. 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,300 I think that was a very Illuminating example and then of 162 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:29,500 course with the FDX pole out recently and they're cooking a 163 00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:32,800 books and whatnot or lack of books, all together, maybe 164 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,700 illustrates how insane it is that make your dough and 165 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:38,800 whatever other Financial product built on. 166 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,700 On the blockchain is there for people to all it to monitor 167 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,000 real-time. And there's no hiding, you know, 168 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:52,500 it's like completely illuminated and the theorem has been Call 169 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:56,100 this like Dark Forest but I think like doing this a huge 170 00:09:56,100 --> 00:10:00,600 flashlight into that dark Forest Illuminating, everything you 171 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,400 want to see really? You can you can get there and 172 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,500 you can look at it and I think the beauty of doing is that this 173 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:07,900 is not. You don't have to be deeply, 174 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:11,100 technical to go. There, you can look at what 175 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:13,300 other people are doing and you can Tinker around them. 176 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,300 You don't need to set up data pipelines and infrastructure to 177 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:18,600 understand, which I think is powerful. 178 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,600 The dock pool Legree is usually used to, to refer to the member 179 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,800 though, right? It's not, I mean, so basically 180 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,000 everything that happens on blockchain is by default open. 181 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,100 I'm not going to say transparent because I totally hear you that 182 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:40,000 basically getting the data is not always easy. 183 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,600 It is possible though but maybe let's talk about the 184 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:50,400 difficulties that you guys have navigated the challenges that, 185 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:56,100 Do you have grown to with you and so basically why is actually 186 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:59,700 getting this data together? Why is it difficult? 187 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:06,800 Yeah, no it's a great question. So I think Well, so a blockchain 188 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,700 is a system that's built for like verifying transactions and 189 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:15,300 you know, activity as it happens and letting people sort of right 190 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:16,500 to the blockchain. Right. 191 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:22,100 But it's not necessarily optimized for getting data out 192 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:25,500 of it in large quantities, right? 193 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:29,400 So so already building a blockchain is a hard engineering 194 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:34,400 problem and the constraints that you would focus on is the 195 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,600 verify. Caishen how many can easily 196 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,200 verify it and then you can actually make transactions and 197 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:46,200 interact with it. So the whole sort of this called 198 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,100 Big Data, aspect of it is not really what that system is 199 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:54,800 designed for. And so that means that it's 200 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,600 actually a surprisingly complicated to get the data out. 201 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,500 And you need to go block for block and ask for all the 202 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,100 different things that happens in the chain. 203 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:10,200 And since like a, no, this is a piece of straw software. 204 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,700 That's not optimized for this. This is way more messy than most 205 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,200 people think. And, and it's not like you just 206 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,400 hit play and it will the data just arrives. 207 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,400 Like things happen. There's where transactions that 208 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,300 stole the system. And I think the most extreme 209 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:32,700 example or clear, example of these things, are these sort of 210 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:35,000 get Forks, so something like, Finance. 211 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,700 Our chain or polygons that have tweaked the parameters of the 212 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:43,900 get node with essentially lower block time and higher 213 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:45,800 throughput. Right? 214 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,500 And so what happens then is that some of these nodes Have a 215 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:54,500 really hard time. Sort of, reproducing, something 216 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,900 that happened, I say, you know, a million blocks ago. 217 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:05,000 And so, it means that they're if they're blocked time is three 218 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,500 seconds, but they might spend. So, I spent like a minute 219 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:13,500 producing a trace of something that happened and I mean, it's 220 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:17,800 when your back feeling that chain like you, diverge from 221 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,100 head, if it takes one minute to get a In this produced, you 222 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:27,000 know, 30 or 20 blocks in that time, you've gotten one more 223 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,800 block and then you you 20 bucks behind right further behind than 224 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,300 what you were before. So since these are systems that 225 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:38,300 are not really built for taking the data out, you do have the 226 00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:44,100 issue of like all these kinds of bottlenecks and quirks. 227 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,400 And so it requires a lot of hand-holding to just get the 228 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,700 data out and then of course, just like having a performance. 229 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,300 Infrastructure and system in place to efficiently query. 230 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,700 What's becoming a lot of data? And, you know, there's etherium. 231 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:03,400 But there's also these each other evm chains that typically 232 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,700 have more throughput and produces more data and then you 233 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:10,000 have things like Solana, which kind of thinking in less than a 234 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,600 week produced more data than the whole of the theories pastry. 235 00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:18,400 So there are non trivial amounts of data as well to query. 236 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,700 Yeah, I totally get that. Maybe maybe let's dig down a 237 00:14:22,708 --> 00:14:26,800 little bit deeper, though. Just I mean, maybe let's say 238 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,100 only Theory mm exclusively because I totally understand 239 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:33,400 that basically other chains with, you know, different 240 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,400 broadcast limits and so on have have higher mountains. 241 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,900 Let's say I have an archiver node running and that basically 242 00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:47,000 gives me the state of each variable at each block, right? 243 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,200 So why why would it be Code for me to kind of run a query on 244 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,500 that archiver note. I mean, I don't, I mean running 245 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,100 an archiver. Note itself is a non-trivial 246 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:00,800 thing, right? But I mean if, if you're going 247 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,600 to do that, what exactly is the butter and egg? 248 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:11,000 For me, if I want to grab, like, say the uni swap volume for 249 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,900 specific token power over the last two years. 250 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,600 Yeah. So, you know you I think you 251 00:15:18,608 --> 00:15:24,300 need to know then exactly what you exactly what you want to 252 00:15:24,308 --> 00:15:26,600 look at. Which is also not trivial, 253 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:27,900 right? So you say, Okay, I want to look 254 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,400 at units per volume for last few years, okay? 255 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,000 That's, I don't know the exact number but it's probably at 256 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,400 least in the tens of thousands may be in the hundreds of 257 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,900 thousands of contracts. So we first need to figure out, 258 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,900 like, which contracts do I care about, which are definitely a 259 00:15:41,908 --> 00:15:44,900 lot, because they deploy new contract for every Market that 260 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,900 That they create or every pair, right? 261 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,900 So so you need to somehow know what data you're looking for 262 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:57,300 from the node. And then of course you get that 263 00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:02,100 then that in and of itself. Want, give it the answer because 264 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,200 you also for instance will need a USD price. 265 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:07,000 Like, if you wanted to aggregate all this volume, you need to 266 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,200 know, okay? If like you cat coin and do coin 267 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,700 or traded, what are those actually worked that? 268 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,700 That's, you know, some data you would get from the blockchain 269 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:20,000 but wouldn't be practically that useful to you need something 270 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,500 else. So you need to USD volumes. 271 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:29,000 You need to fetch that somewhere and and and join it and multiply 272 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,500 the amount. It's so you have that type of 273 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:35,700 problem and then you have all their sort of higher level 274 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:39,500 circulation problems where there is a lot of spam for instance. 275 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:43,900 So some will create some sense nonsensical token, you know, do 276 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:46,500 you want trade that makes it worth a billion. 277 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,800 And then you can do a massive trade that looks like, it's like 278 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,300 1 billion dollars worth of volume, but it turns out it's 279 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:58,300 like, you know, just some folks training with each other on some 280 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,400 worthless token, right? So, There's also like that 281 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,099 element to it so I think it's like both technically 282 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,599 non-trivial. There's also a lot of context 283 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:11,300 that you need to to do this. So basically it's the 284 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:15,800 integration of different sorts of information into one database 285 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,900 together with kind of the categorisation and curation of 286 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:24,599 different contracts and feeds. Is that is that high-level 287 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,300 correct? Yeah I'd say so you know also 288 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,100 Sort of the benefit of what we do is that we fetch absolutely 289 00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:39,700 all the data, right? And so, you can sort of have 290 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:44,300 that as a starting point, but if you interact with node, you 291 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,700 know, if you do want to answer some specific question, you do 292 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:51,500 need to know what data you want to do, but then and you can run 293 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,500 that and it's going to take you long long time and you have to 294 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:56,800 sort of handle the process and then if you say oh but actually 295 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,900 I want to check this other thing or match it with this other 296 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:00,100 thing, you know. Then you have to do. 297 00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:03,300 That whole exercise over again just like, oh, but actually, you 298 00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:07,300 know, I want a question related to balancer pools, you know, 299 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,300 then you have like, a whole process going. 300 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:15,500 And so yeah, yeah, I think it's essentially just in theory, 301 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,900 doable, but in practice, like a lot of hard work and a lot of 302 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:26,400 mess, even for a sophisticated sort of data engineer, Right? 303 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,100 And you recently also upgraded, I think maybe going a bit to the 304 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:35,200 technical part of it from like a V1 do into V2. 305 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,500 Can you talk a little bit about what what you've changed there 306 00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:41,900 and how it improves The Human Experience are also like what 307 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:44,500 was the problems with the dude experience so far? 308 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,900 Yeah, for sure. So we had a post request based 309 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,500 system for you. You'll be one which was a great 310 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:58,000 start for a noon. Great piece of technology, but 311 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:00,600 with a lot of data, it became a problem. 312 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:05,800 So basically a lot of queries would time out and like a 313 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:11,500 podcast type of system is good at for being fast on relatively 314 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:16,400 small amounts of data, but not great, when it comes to a lot of 315 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,600 data. And so there were a couple of 316 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,400 limitations in addition to like performance over large data set, 317 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,700 like you couldn't, you couldn't look. 318 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:28,600 Say like median gas price over the history of the earth, whom 319 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,500 the blockchain, we just time out, we run for like 30 plus 320 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:34,300 minutes and then you know, you wouldn't get a result. 321 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,900 There's also there was also the problem that like, each chain, 322 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,100 we added was a different database and you couldn't work 323 00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:44,800 on across them. So you couldn't Benchmark data 324 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,600 on polygon and etherium, they had to be like separate queries 325 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,600 and then, furthermore, like all the data pipelines of creating 326 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,700 these tables that we have like that. 327 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,800 X trades and nft trades. And these abstractions I talked 328 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,500 about was like, very messy because this were like scripts 329 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:07,200 that pulled some data and sort of referencing each other. 330 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,800 Like very, very complicated to maintain and understand which 331 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,700 data relies on which data on what tables and and whatnot. 332 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:22,200 So essentially we've now launched do an engine V2 which 333 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,700 is based on like a data Lake. And more like a modern cloud 334 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:32,900 data warehouse architecture, where we have all the data for 335 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,800 all the different blockchains in like data Lake. 336 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,100 And then we have a gray engine on top of it, currently spark 337 00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:44,200 base but we're also doing some exciting new things there and 338 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,700 essentially, allowing you to Traverse all the different 339 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:52,100 sources so you can Benchmark Solana and etherium, and 340 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:53,300 polygons and all these things in one. 341 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:58,600 Simple query, it allows Us to have way better pipelines and 342 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,900 checks and balances on how the tables are created. 343 00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:04,500 And also we can now have committed Community 344 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:08,200 contributions on the data layer. So not only can people write 345 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,200 queries. They can also create new tables 346 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,700 with something with a product recalled spell book. 347 00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:19,000 So people can then create all kinds of derive data sets that 348 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,600 are easy to query. They can write their own tests 349 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,400 and ensure that the data is of high quality. 350 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,200 And so, It's a system that's way easier to maintain. 351 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:35,600 We can have invite the community into contributing more and sort 352 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,300 of self-serving or two more use cases and then yeah, there's 353 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:42,800 some amazing performance benefits and sort of what the 354 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,400 typical modern data stack. Looks like, we're kind of 355 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,300 creating that. And enabling that for for the 356 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:53,300 community where you can do meeting gas price in, you know, 357 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,600 a couple of seconds or a few minutes. 358 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,400 At least, yeah. You just alluded to the fact 359 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,000 that you now also supports Alana, which is a new 360 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,700 development. So previously it was only a VM 361 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,900 chains. I and despite the fact that kind 362 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,800 of the block gas limits and block times kind of vary between 363 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,500 different evm chains and I assume the basic infrastructure 364 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:20,900 is fairly similar between all of these, how are things different 365 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,800 for Solana. And how did you make the 366 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,400 decision to support Solana over a number of other non evm? 367 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:32,100 They are one project that also have traction like Cosmos or 368 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:34,200 substrate, or Avalanche or similar? 369 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:41,900 Yeah, great question so. So first of all like we we want 370 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:45,600 to support all blockchains and everything that that's 371 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,500 interesting so it's not the goal in and of itself to limit it. 372 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,200 I think what we have cared a lot about is the user experience of 373 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,400 Using the data on you. And I think that's frankly, one 374 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,900 of the things we got right. Were, you know, the the easiest 375 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:07,000 way to make some money being a Data Business in, like 2018 or 376 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,700 2019 was to like just integrate with all the chains that are 377 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:13,100 raised a ton of money. We didn't do that like we stuck 378 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,400 to the theorem where essentially no one would pay us to do this 379 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,900 but we figured, you know, this is where people are building, so 380 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:26,200 let's serve done and so for us The important thing is that 381 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:31,700 there's an ecosystem of developers of applications of 382 00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:34,400 users and a communities that actually want to wear this data. 383 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:40,800 And, you know, do interesting things with it and then sort of 384 00:23:40,808 --> 00:23:43,100 we do the work of the Integrations. 385 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:47,600 And as you alluded to, it's been waiting for us with evm chains 386 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,400 because all the infrastructure, all the processes are the same. 387 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,300 So when we add something like polygons like it is There's 388 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:59,100 definitely challenges whatever system one learns, but but, you 389 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:02,400 know, in Broad Strokes, a lot of the architecture and processes 390 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,600 are the same. So with something like sadhana, 391 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,200 you know, this was actually the first also blockchain. 392 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:15,000 We put on our new Unity to engine so we figured this was a 393 00:24:15,008 --> 00:24:19,200 nice stress test to the system because it they produce a lot of 394 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,100 data. But we saw that there was a lot 395 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,700 of people building on it. There were actual products being 396 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,900 Built users using in them and then we decided to integrate it 397 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:34,500 and we honestly also have built out this new platform which has 398 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:39,800 been also a learning experience and something with had to work a 399 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,700 lot on and therefore have been painfully slow honestly 400 00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:48,000 integrating some of these new blockchains but now the new 401 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,800 platform is getting into a more stable State and then we can go 402 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,800 more aggressively on integrating new. 403 00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:58,300 Chains. So it's not something we 404 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:01,000 deliberately sort of try to avoid, but we try to make sure 405 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,200 that the ux, when we do integrate this good and that 406 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,500 there's an interested Community to work on top of it and of 407 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:10,600 course like the technical complexity place in if it's a 408 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,600 totally new system, then it is more work to do to get it right. 409 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:19,000 Cool. Yeah we wanted to talk a little 410 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,500 bit about its kind of tunes business model and also I guess 411 00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:25,300 the user base. You mentioned already like the 412 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:28,600 community and everything. I think one interesting thing 413 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,900 about June is that it's it's basically one of the few 414 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:35,900 products that has this kind of SAS model, let's say in the in 415 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:40,000 the web three world and we were interested to hear a bit about, 416 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:44,000 you know, like also how many users are there on you and how 417 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000 do you think Not surprising how much people of revenues are 418 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:49,800 there. Whatever. 419 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,300 You can you can tell us about kind of how this this all works. 420 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:58,400 We'd be happy to learn. Yeah. 421 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,600 Where do I start? I think we have built a very 422 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,700 strong community on June. I think we've actually and 423 00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:10,100 without the token, which I think actually has been a good thing 424 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:14,700 for us, frankly, because there is like, a kind of proof of work 425 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,100 on getting into doing. You do have to, you know, make 426 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:22,200 some sacrifice, put in some work, and that has made our 427 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,400 community, very sticky and healthy. 428 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,600 I think, because people actually put in work to get there, Learn. 429 00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:34,000 I think we we Empower a lot of people so as I alluded to 430 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,700 earlier like it's not only developers that use doing but a 431 00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:40,800 lot of non-technical people, learn SQL with them for you. 432 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:44,200 And they do some tutorials, they Fork some queries, and they get 433 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,700 started and suddenly they get paid to work on you and they 434 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:51,500 pick up bounties. They get a job like a lot of 435 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,300 people claim like fantastic top jobs in protocols and Venture 436 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:58,200 firms, and whatnot. Starting from basically Nothing 437 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,400 and having no online presence and then working on doing 438 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,100 building. Some nice, important dashboards 439 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,400 and getting like top jobs, right? 440 00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:09,900 So I think that, that's very important part of it that I 441 00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:14,200 often think of our community and sort of the UN team building the 442 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,700 product in terms of this Spider-Man meme where they're 443 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:21,500 like, oh so you know, you built a great tool, you help me do 444 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,900 this and we're like no you did like a lot of cool queries and 445 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:28,600 you helped us. So I think there's a lot of 446 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:33,200 mutual appreciation between the people building noon and our 447 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,900 community, which I think is a fantastic thing. 448 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:43,100 So in terms of Like how big it is, we have like a few thousand 449 00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:47,700 people creating queries a month. We don't have like a huge user 450 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:52,400 base on the Creator side, but since doing is kind of like a 451 00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:57,500 Marketplace all the way almost were, you know, people can come 452 00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:01,500 in and see anything that's built is like your creator side and a 453 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,500 consumer side. And so we believe that if we 454 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:10,300 Empower creators Yes, they can make amazing things and a lot of 455 00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:13,400 people can benefit from that. So we don't necessarily need 456 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:17,800 100,000 query craters, you know, if we have someone that's very 457 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,700 engaged and create amazing things, we can have, we do have 458 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,700 like millions of page views and then some of those convert to 459 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:28,200 Craters, learn the craft and, you know, get into it. 460 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:33,400 So that's kind of the the dynamic we have about 50,000 461 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,100 dashboards on June underpinned by like 300,000, Aries. 462 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:42,800 So it's quite substantial. Yet. 463 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,100 So, I think the heart of the question goes to this. 464 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,700 So currently you operate under this, you know, subscription 465 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,600 model, right? So basically there's different 466 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,700 tiers. So, basically, you have to pay 467 00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:58,300 for kind of keeping your dashboards private and having 468 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:05,300 the watermark removed and so on. And then this kind of, when you 469 00:29:05,308 --> 00:29:10,400 compare this with your recent razors, Congratulations, by the 470 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,600 way. So you I raised repeatedly over 471 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,300 the last couple of years, so at first, it was two million than 8 472 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:20,200 million and recently, 70 million at a valuation of 1 billion. 473 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,400 So my question goes to this the and so the investment that's 474 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,600 been made was that an equity investment or was it a soft or? 475 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,200 I mean, basically it's kind of reframe this question since is 476 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,900 there a plan to introduce the token? 477 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,600 So, because basically it kind of, I struggled, who kind of 478 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,000 make sense Out of the software as a service business model that 479 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,300 you're currently running with the with these variations. 480 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,600 Because I mean, sure there's kind of companies for this for 481 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,800 whom that works like, the sale sales forces of the world. 482 00:29:53,800 --> 00:30:00,200 But obviously your, your, your addressable Market is so much 483 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,200 smaller. So how does this, how does this 484 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,800 all fit together? Yeah, sure. 485 00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:09,300 So let's start with like the business model, which I wish I 486 00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:12,300 didn't intend to, to skip over from, from the previous 487 00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:16,800 question. So essentially, you know what we 488 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,600 do is, we allow anyone to use this tool for free, we swallow 489 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,100 all the infrastructure costs, all the work in terms of making 490 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:28,300 this product, super useful, and then our philosophy is, if you 491 00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:32,300 do it on in the open anyone else can Leverage What you do you 492 00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:35,200 build sort of in public and so. It's free. 493 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:39,400 What we essentially charge for is if you want to keep things 494 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,100 private, you want to do it. Only for yourself. 495 00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:45,400 If you want to come use more resources so have more 496 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,700 performance on your queries have more beefy infrastructure 497 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:51,900 underneath it have shorter, wait times, these type of things and 498 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:54,200 if you want to export data, which essentially means that you 499 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,400 can do, you know, proprietary research, build your own 500 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,000 business, whatever it might be, right? 501 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,100 So these are kind of the three main Dimensions that we think 502 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:04,000 makes sense to to monetize alone. 503 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:09,500 And Think to back up a bit, there are different ways to 504 00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:13,200 build the system and sort of say, you know, what do we kind 505 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,600 of giveaway and what do we maintain to make a business or 506 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,500 whatever? And I think we've kind of our 507 00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:23,300 approach is like we wanted, we want to solve problems. 508 00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:24,900 We want to be as useful as possible. 509 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,100 And what we've figured out this, like, if we do it in this way, 510 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,200 we can have the most impact because so many people so like, 511 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,500 yeah, we sure we could open source everything and just like, 512 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,700 Everything that we ever did is open source but that actually 513 00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:40,700 would have way less impact is our apoptosis because so many 514 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:43,100 people wouldn't be able to interface with these nodes to 515 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,100 actually run this data infrastructure to operate and 516 00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:49,700 maintain this thing. You know, we have almost 50 517 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:51,300 Engineers working full-time on this. 518 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:57,200 It's not a trivial problem and so that's the model we've taken 519 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,300 where we think the community can get a lot from this and we can 520 00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:04,600 monetize the people that have extra needs in different. 521 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Is but also have more of a business use case typically 522 00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:11,200 rather than you know, just contributing. 523 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,300 So that's kind of the philosophy, we raise Equity. 524 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:22,100 If it's not that I want to completely rule out any other 525 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:26,400 sort of web tree play, but I think for us we're very 526 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,400 concerned will taking long-term Solutions and want to, you know, 527 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,000 the if we wanted to get rich as quickly as possible like Like we 528 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,000 would have done dude in a different way I have, but we 529 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,000 care about building something that is long term. 530 00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:43,800 That is sensible. Even though prices are up a 531 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,300 hundred percent or down 90%, like, I don't really care. 532 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:54,000 And so for now we haven't found a model where we can swallow, 533 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,900 you know, massive infrastructure bills and also kind of have a 534 00:32:58,908 --> 00:33:01,900 different structure. But over time, we definitely, 535 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,100 you know, try to give economic These two are creators as much 536 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:09,400 as possible, Wizards building on their own and so it will always 537 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,100 be mindful of the toolkit and when we can do, but I think it's 538 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,700 also from our side like ensuring that we don't get ourselves into 539 00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:21,000 weak spot where we fall prey to some high and then suddenly like 540 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,800 no six months later, you're in a really bad spot because you did 541 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,000 something that actually doesn't make that much sense. 542 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,700 And also like just pragmatically solving problems every single 543 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,600 day and ensuring that were massively building something 544 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,500 useful for For the community and you are. 545 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:41,200 So very, I've used your dashboards and I've bet my own 546 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,800 dashboards and Doin is such a fantastic to it. 547 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,200 And I don't, I mean, this in the least At first I know this 548 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,300 sounds a little bit adversary, but basically, so I'm a little 549 00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:55,900 bit struggling to understand where your moat comes from. 550 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,500 Right. So basically, even if, I mean, 551 00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:00,900 you have 50 engineers and maybe we'll talk about what they do on 552 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:03,400 a day-to-day basis, in just a little bit. 553 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,900 But say, your Paying your engineers really good salaries, 554 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:13,800 a 200k here, that's 10 million a year for 450 Engineers, right? 555 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:19,500 And then maybe add the same amount again for your AWS bill, 556 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,600 which is probably around the right number. 557 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:28,000 I'm guessing so it's 20 million a year for two to recreate 558 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,500 something like like June, but you still have this enormous 559 00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:35,199 valuation. So basically, Where's this 560 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,300 expectation of profit from the VC's coming from? 561 00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,400 Yeah, don't get great question. I'm not going to comment 562 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,500 particularly on your estimates of how much it cost you to run 563 00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:48,800 doing. But fair enough, I think. 564 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,199 You know, I think we're at the end of the day we're trying to 565 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,699 build something useful and I think we're abstracting away a 566 00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:59,200 lot of hard work for a lot of people and I think if you run 567 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,700 the protocol or a VC or you know, other type of players like 568 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:08,400 we have big, you know, big brand names and what not playing in 569 00:35:08,408 --> 00:35:13,300 the space now you care about this data like it's important 570 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:18,100 for your investing, for your running, all of your business 571 00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:22,800 and what not? And I think, you know, the 572 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,800 things I mentioned like having more performance on working with 573 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,400 this data, having a private environment. 574 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,200 But we're your team can collaborate with this data 575 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,100 exporting, this data, through API, and these type of things. 576 00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:37,900 I think it's like massively useful and people will pay for 577 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:40,600 that convenience. I think that's valuable and the 578 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,200 fact that people can come together. 579 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,000 And as I mentioned like, you know, we get a lot of people 580 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,500 that contribute and we the trade-off we kind of Made is 581 00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,000 like we say, OK, we will swallow all these bills will make the 582 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,600 system run. We will ensure that like 583 00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:59,800 everything is up and running and correct, which is a massive 584 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,700 effort. And then I think there's, you 585 00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:07,900 know, a lot of demand for built getting more out of that tool 586 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:12,000 and I don't think that is you know, necessarily like we care 587 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,200 deeply about the free experience some June and so it's not like 588 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,900 we will suddenly just like rug all the free users and you know, 589 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,100 Extract massive amounts of money from them. 590 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:27,200 It's like we will make you more powerful over time and let 591 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,900 people pay for extra features and I think it's important sort 592 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:34,100 of context are as well. I'd like, We did a play on like 593 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:38,700 the long time when we focused on the community in 2018 and yes, 594 00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:41,900 like I didn't have a salary for seven months because every 595 00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:45,100 single VC was like there are five people you can sell this to 596 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,300 and we don't see this as a lucrative business and we were 597 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:51,200 like actually we think these five people is going to become 598 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,600 like thousand and thousands and tens of thousands and whatnot 599 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,000 you know over get over the years and and that's still the play. 600 00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,900 We're doing. Yeah. 601 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:02,100 Don't don't get me wrong. I think you and is a basically 602 00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:03,500 useful to it. Totally. 603 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,200 How do you feel about the comparison that sometimes made 604 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:14,700 with Bloomberg terminal? I think that's an understatement 605 00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:21,900 of what junice and can be, so I think, As I alluded to earlier, 606 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:26,000 like the fact that this data is open is like it total talking 607 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,100 game changer. And Bloomberg is a fantastic 608 00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:34,600 product for a niche. In the finance world that you 609 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,100 know care, deeply about having a sort of proprietary, 610 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,600 understanding of what's whatever is happening in these financial 611 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,700 markets. But and so, you know, amazing 612 00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:47,600 product and fantastic what they've done and the position 613 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,700 they have in that world. I think the That you can have 614 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:58,000 open-ended interaction with this data as like together with the 615 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,300 rest of the world is just enormous. 616 00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:09,200 And so I don't think I'm like, I really don't think there's Any 617 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:13,000 product out there that is comparable to what we're doing 618 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,200 because it it has some of the aspects of like a GitHub where a 619 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,900 lot of people come together and build on each other and, you 620 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:27,300 know, it's a tool for a for developers and then you have the 621 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:29,400 product of that which gets up doesn't have. 622 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,500 But which kind of, you know, it's more of the bluebird thing 623 00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:33,200 with like, oh there's like a bunch of charts and a lot of 624 00:38:33,207 --> 00:38:35,700 people can just look at which is incredibly useful. 625 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,100 But then you also have Have you know the fact that this is 626 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:48,300 public and which I think is a huge deal and I think big kind 627 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:52,900 of Technology, paradigms typically, what you see succeed 628 00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:56,800 is like someone that really builds for some novel. 629 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,500 New aspect of a new platform or a new piece of technology. 630 00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:02,000 And to me that is really what we're doing here. 631 00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:06,700 We're not trying to recreate Bloomberg, recreate some tool 632 00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:11,200 that people had for their Product analytics and they would 633 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,500 like pipe there, whatever. Sort of usage data from their 634 00:39:14,508 --> 00:39:17,900 website into to like that. Like, we're trying to build 635 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:23,000 something that is uniquely enabled by and driving open data 636 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,100 and understanding and utility of that data. 637 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:31,600 And just the fact that if, when there's a trade on on, like a 638 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:36,600 balancer pool, Previously, like there would be like one or two 639 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,900 stakeholders to that data point would be like the p.m. and the 640 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,200 leader of that company that built that product. 641 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,400 Like. Now, there's like this explosion 642 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,000 of stakeholders where it's like, literally anyone can go on the 643 00:39:49,008 --> 00:39:52,200 internet and look into this data point and like make sense of it 644 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,500 in whatever shape or form they want to. 645 00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:58,500 And I think it's still hard to grasp and appreciate like how 646 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:03,700 big of a deal that is that like the world is the audience. 647 00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:06,300 Here and and of course, not every single person in the world 648 00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:10,400 will go there, but it's an opportunity and and I think that 649 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,400 is the premise of what we're trying to do is like people can 650 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,000 learn faster. If they see what, what other 651 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,100 products are built, and they can see the open-source smart 652 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:24,500 contracts, but I can also see how what traction that smart 653 00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:26,400 contract. God, how do people use it? 654 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,200 How do people abuse it? You know, and I think what the 655 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,500 blockchain is, one of the exciting things about the 656 00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,900 blockchain is like anyone can build Anyone can participate and 657 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,700 you have this sort of bet on human creativity that like you 658 00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:41,700 just give people tools to do whatever they. 659 00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:44,100 You know, there will be a lot of stupid ideas, but there will be 660 00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,800 some real good ones. And I think what we're enabling 661 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,000 in that is that you can actually dissect. 662 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,600 What worked not just with the thing. 663 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,200 You built yourself, but with everything that anyone ever 664 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,000 built, and then you have this amazing through a feedback loop 665 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,300 and evolutionary Force. That's just So much faster and 666 00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:08,000 so much. It's harsh also because if you 667 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,200 build a product like it's out there like anyone can go and 668 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,000 look at your metrics, not just your manager, which is of course 669 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,400 intimidating but it's also like I think progressing this space 670 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,500 way way faster than any other industry that you can think of. 671 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,800 Yeah, awesome. That I want to dive a little bit 672 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,000 deeper into that. So we had mentioned a little 673 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,700 bit, right? The maker towel, balance sheet. 674 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:33,100 We have also mentioned kind of other dashboards that have been 675 00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,600 built will be curious to hear from you. 676 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,300 You know, what other use cases you found like, really 677 00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,600 interesting or even like people building on top of Dune in a way 678 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,700 that maybe, maybe you didn't expect or also if that hasn't 679 00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:49,400 happened yet, what what you would like to see build on June? 680 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,100 I guess there's kind of like two different things. 681 00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:59,200 One is or two different worlds. One is when we launched API, 682 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,500 which is going on, but end of the Air Force officer, we have 683 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:08,900 kind of like a waitlist private bitter right now, you know, 684 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,500 that's going to be an explosion of opportunity. 685 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:18,100 But inside of the do nap, I think frankly I didn't think 686 00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:26,100 that that, in many cases the The crypto Community should learn a 687 00:42:26,107 --> 00:42:29,800 little bit more from the sort of old world. 688 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,300 I think a lot about, you know, what our features and what are 689 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,900 bugs of the old world. And I think still too many 690 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:39,400 crypto people think there's only bugs, you know, in the old 691 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,600 world, and everything needs to be reinvented. 692 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,300 And I think maybe, you know, they're sure they are some bugs 693 00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:46,400 that I think we have an interesting new design space. 694 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,400 But there might be some features after, you know, the industries 695 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,800 that have been around for a while and I thought still think 696 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,600 kind of Startup 101 metrics are underrated, what what's the 697 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,500 attraction of your product? What's the user base? 698 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,600 What's the retention of that user base? 699 00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,200 You know what's the distribution of activity across different 700 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,400 users? And I still think what like a 701 00:43:12,408 --> 00:43:16,900 typical startup p.m. would want to look at is actually not that 702 00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:19,500 far from what people should look at in crypto as well. 703 00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:22,500 And like, do the boring stuff just like figure out. 704 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:24,700 Are we retaining users? It's like, well, this person 705 00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:28,100 come back or not and if they don't come back like why, right? 706 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:34,500 So I think that is still a bit under appreciated and and people 707 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:38,900 like to look at sort of tvl and some high-level, like, trading 708 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:42,300 volume, which is probably better metric than TBL at least. 709 00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:47,000 But, you know, I think that some of those kind of more sobering 710 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,800 metrics is something. I'll be nice to look at. 711 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,600 There was also a, like, a very cool. 712 00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:58,400 Longer for research piece by a Community member last week on, 713 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,200 just like the Unis Unis are drop. 714 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,800 And you know what did that turn into? 715 00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:09,000 You know, those are some pretty sobering metrics in there where 716 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,900 it's like okay I can't remember the exact metrics but it's 717 00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:19,500 something like 90% Soul more or less instantly it's like seven 718 00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:23,100 percent of all the airdrop holders, still hold the token. 719 00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:27,800 And like a tiny fraction of that, sort of increase their 720 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:34,300 exposure and an even smaller, smaller portion participating 721 00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:35,100 governance. Right? 722 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:40,200 Only want your time to shine bit and is the units of volume 723 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:46,000 driven by people that Got the Arab know like that also fell 724 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,200 from like 60% a year ago or something to like 5% now. 725 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,200 Right. So so it didn't retain users. 726 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,200 Most people just saw it does free money and dumped it and it 727 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,400 didn't actually turn into like, strong governance participation, 728 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,700 right? And so, I think that's those 729 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:08,100 type of metrics and lessons, right? 730 00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:12,400 Where people should say, what? What's the return on this 731 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,800 initiative? That I did. 732 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:17,300 Like what do we try to achieve and what did it turn into? 733 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:21,300 It's like an exercise that more people in crypto should should 734 00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:25,400 do, I think, and be honest with himself, and I think, obviously, 735 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,500 like these times when prices are down the sentiment this down, 736 00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:32,200 like, you kind of have to do these things and they matter, I 737 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,500 guess less when everything is up anyway. 738 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:41,300 So I feel like, you know, in general like like being a bit 739 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,200 hard on yourself and thinking about About the the stickiness 740 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,500 of your product Roi of your activities and in that post, 741 00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:51,400 maybe we can link to it. You know, there are other 742 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,900 airdrops as well that you can look at the metrics and just see 743 00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:56,700 for yourself. Like, you know, did they 744 00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:58,500 actually engage the community by doing this? 745 00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:00,700 Or did they not them? If they didn't? 746 00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:05,100 Like, it's an incredibly expensive one of marketing gate 747 00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:09,000 that kind of, you know, I can, I can get a lot of people to use 748 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,300 my product if I just go out and say hey, here's like a thousand 749 00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:15,300 dollars, On the street right? Doesn't necessarily mean that 750 00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:17,500 I'm building a fantastic product or business. 751 00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:25,000 So yeah, I think it's good timing for just like reading up 752 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,700 on some sort of bone and warm and start to think about Roi of 753 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:36,400 your initiatives. So user experience and a good 754 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,900 hard look in the mirror. I mean clearly that's super 755 00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:46,600 advantageous for projects. Do you think there's something 756 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,300 for the ecosystem that the ecosystem can use to its 757 00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:52,600 Advantage? Because obviously, I mean, 758 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,700 volatility in crypto is large, despite the fact that in 759 00:46:55,700 --> 00:46:58,100 principle not of the data is public. 760 00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:01,800 So I mean obviously there's some data that That's not looked at 761 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,300 all that that that kind of subject to externalities. 762 00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:10,200 Do you think we can kind of Leverage Yoon to that end as 763 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:17,600 well? Yes, you can definitely learn a 764 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,100 lot from from history, right? And I think it's probably a good 765 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,500 now. We've had a lot of lessons there 766 00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:27,400 and the pace has been incredibly High. 767 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,900 You have had prices going up and prices crashing down, and you 768 00:47:31,908 --> 00:47:35,200 have all these systems that have been built and all these things 769 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,100 that happened in drops and vampire attacks and whatnot. 770 00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:42,200 So I think it's probably a good time to be a ghost. 771 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,700 Student of the unchain activity, right? 772 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:49,000 And, and maybe you don't even have to be an engineer to do 773 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,500 that, right? But if you're looking for 774 00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:55,300 products to build, I think it's like an amazing time for 775 00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:57,800 learning some lessons and there's been a lot of stress 776 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:04,200 tests and I think now instead of just the end, you know, the fire 777 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,400 and ft project being drawn together in the week and then 778 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,900 racing ten million dollars in two weeks. 779 00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:14,100 You know, people you can actually sit down and say, okay, 780 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,800 you know, did any of this actually work order? 781 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,100 Interesting pieces are so I don't know exactly what to look 782 00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:25,000 at or not, frankly, you know, but but I would be mindful of, 783 00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:28,300 especially this like, you know what, I think one thing that's 784 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,100 on the rated it, but in crypto is like, if someone is getting 785 00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:35,600 paid for something, someone is picking up the bill in one way 786 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,000 or another. Like there are no free lunches. 787 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,100 Like if you have some kind of like token emission scheme 788 00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:45,400 related to using a product like the other token holders are 789 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,600 taking done bhushan. There's no way ever that money 790 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,400 just like, appears out of thin air. 791 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,200 And so, I think that is, at least something to be very 792 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,400 mindful that, you know, the way they designed this things, 793 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,200 someone's going to pay a price. If other people are receiving 794 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,600 money. So, you know, think about that. 795 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,200 Yeah. Absolutely. 796 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:16,800 You have been extraordinarily successful and kind of building 797 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,500 this community of Dune visits. As you call them, I would 798 00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:25,500 actually struggle to to name one infrastructure project that kind 799 00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:28,600 of has a better Community than you guys. 800 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:30,900 How did he do that? It's do it. 801 00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:36,000 And what are your learnings Well, thank you for that. 802 00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:40,300 So so for the first two years doing was just matzo me like the 803 00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:44,100 only we hire no one and as I mentioned, you know, have had no 804 00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:47,100 salary and then very little salary and we didn't hire anyone 805 00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:49,600 after our first fundraiser or anything like that. 806 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,600 So we're very lean. But I think we had a very, very 807 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:58,000 deep passion for helping people on do and making them succeed 808 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,000 like our telegrams and Twitter. DM sand. 809 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,500 Like we, there were the word that Like, they were pretty few 810 00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:07,800 users but we were extremely committed to making them 811 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,600 succeed. And we did very handsome support 812 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,900 for helping people succeed and this includes several people 813 00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:18,600 that didn't know sequel, but we like help them learn sequels so 814 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,500 that they could use their view right. 815 00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:24,900 And and for instance, t0 from them researcher at the Block. 816 00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:29,700 And then now at Uni sloppy, he was like, Hey, this seems like a 817 00:50:29,700 --> 00:50:31,500 cool product. Can I get it in Excel? 818 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,000 And I was like, no, but I can learn you how to do Sequel. 819 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,900 And we had like a biweekly call where I would like give him 820 00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:43,600 lessons in how to use steel. So that was the level of 821 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,300 commitment and I think that has been you know kind of snowballed 822 00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:51,400 into what is to do in community because you know, our first 823 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:58,900 Community manager for Brock sir, he had that similar passion and 824 00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:01,000 I think every single person that has come into the doing 825 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:06,100 community and felt this Court and people say, yeah, let's get 826 00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,900 on the call. You know, let DM into to the 827 00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:11,500 late hours on like trying to make this query run. 828 00:51:12,300 --> 00:51:16,000 I think that has really, you know, compounded to a culture 829 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,500 where people say oh yeah you know let me help you out. 830 00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:22,400 And I think one of the things I'm most proud of with 831 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,700 everything we built is really did you in community and just 832 00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:27,700 like going to the Discord during this course like several 833 00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:31,000 thousand people but it's still like mostly just people asking 834 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,500 about queries and getting answer to those queries. 835 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:37,100 It's not a ton of crap and, you know, I think it's still very 836 00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:39,100 much active even though prices are down. 837 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:46,000 It is 90% And I think that comes from A passion for really 838 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:51,900 helping people. And being as you know, there was 839 00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:55,800 this funny thing where like knots my co-founder, he recently 840 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,300 realized he had like all his telegram notifications turned 841 00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:02,800 off. But he had like an exception for 842 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,500 one of our early users. So that would like get straight 843 00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:09,200 to the home screen. Obvious phone, like, if they DM 844 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,100 the him on telegram, like it would pop up on his phone on the 845 00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:15,100 Friday night and he would like get in there and Make that query 846 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:18,300 run. So I think that passion that we 847 00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:20,200 put into it. This is something that has 848 00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:23,400 actually escaped into what your community. 849 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:25,900 Yeah. Super interesting. 850 00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,800 So you're saying, you didn't have to give thousand dollars to 851 00:52:28,808 --> 00:52:31,600 every Dune wizard, to, to use the product. 852 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,100 It's like, you're not right. Awesome. 853 00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:37,600 Yeah, I think maybe I guess I working on like, specific 854 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:38,800 things. We know there was also, did you 855 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,200 income, maybe. You can also talk a little bit 856 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,500 about that give first conference, but I think from 857 00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,800 what I hear is a lot in on the feel like helping and discard. 858 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,200 But do you also have certain I don't know, learning material, 859 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,000 like documentation, is that something you working on or how 860 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,000 do you improve that even even? Further. 861 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,300 Yeah, no, definitely. We're working on a lot of 862 00:52:59,308 --> 00:53:02,600 educational efforts. We have a big Community team. 863 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,600 Now we're doing meetups and yeah, with the tune calm, which 864 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,000 was a massive success in Berlin couple months ago. 865 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,000 So we really try to get people engaged and help them out both 866 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,700 sort of handsome but definitely also more self-serve with the 867 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,700 educational series and whatnot. So, Are working on several sort 868 00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:30,200 of bigger initiatives. It is one thing that's, you 869 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,900 know, honestly a challenges like we were doing this like system, 870 00:53:32,900 --> 00:53:35,000 me migrations. And like we had the Viva man, 871 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,100 the mayor V2 and like, there's a different dialect of SQL and 872 00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:41,900 like, you know, these are kind of some of the messy things of 873 00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:43,900 building a company where it's like, oh yeah, we want to have 874 00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:47,100 all the best educational resources obviously. 875 00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:51,100 But then, you know, there are different versions and which one 876 00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:53,500 you know can only support. And what features do we have 877 00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:56,400 today than what What do we have tomorrow and whatnot? 878 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:02,300 But yeah, we're certainly keep investing in education and 879 00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:07,300 letting people become powerful Wizards and sort of leveling up 880 00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:10,300 and giving them Bounty opportunities and we have a job 881 00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:12,500 board and all these type of things. 882 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:15,500 And we have seen several people sort of pivot their careers and 883 00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:18,000 to just doing this which is fantastic. 884 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:25,000 And then yeah there are some we touched upon it but the do napi 885 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,100 I think is huge, huge game changer like the what you can do 886 00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:33,400 with data and the space is going to be forever changed. 887 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,700 When you can just click a button and turn any query salt on the 888 00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:42,400 internet and point that you can leverage for building or trading 889 00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:46,400 or researching or, you know, whatever you see fit. 890 00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:55,300 So I'm pretty pumped for that. So, as SQL is pretty 891 00:54:55,300 --> 00:55:00,600 straightforward, in terms of, you know, programming languages 892 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,500 or databases. So, if you know, two things 893 00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:04,800 about databases, you can carry it. 894 00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:09,500 But still there's a lot of people who are kind of afraid of 895 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,300 code, right? And in principle, it should be 896 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,200 relatively easier. Comparatively easy when compared 897 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,400 with other. Many instances to kind of open 898 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,600 this to natural language processing. 899 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,400 Kind of like what from alpha has done for Mathematica, right. 900 00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:33,000 Have you looked into that because it would immediately 901 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,200 balloon your target audience, you know, from a couple of 902 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,800 thousand people to literally millions Yeah, great. 903 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,500 Great question. Think the the Big Challenge 904 00:55:47,500 --> 00:55:51,700 there is kind of going from, I think it's like relatively easy 905 00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:55,200 to build a cool prototype that you take some of the like most 906 00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,900 obvious things and and turns it into like a resultant and like, 907 00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:02,200 creates a SQL query for you and the underneath the hood. 908 00:56:03,300 --> 00:56:09,800 So I think that is very cool. I guess what I'm wondering is 909 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,300 you know, to what extent That extent you like all kinds of 910 00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:16,500 weird messy things that humans, you know, with actually put into 911 00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:22,000 like a search box and how could use to what extent can you serve 912 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,200 that into a compelling product experience and how many people 913 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,100 will actually go and do that versus? 914 00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:32,100 Just like look at something that's kind of pre curated. 915 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,200 So I think for us like we're very mindful of just trying to 916 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,700 do like, you know, the most obvious thing first, and we feel 917 00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:45,800 like still, there's a lot of work to just, like, make the 918 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,500 query experience on dude, better have clear tables, have it run 919 00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:54,600 faster, some of these type of things that just gonna make 920 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,000 writing SQL on you even easier, even faster, and more powerful. 921 00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:02,500 And then, over time, like we're excited about other ways of 922 00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:06,900 interacting with this data, if that's python notebooks or You 923 00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:13,800 know, some natural language sort of experience, but I think it's 924 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:19,100 still, we still think that we have some more basic things to 925 00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:23,400 get to. And I'm also, I think, yeah, one 926 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,900 thing to be very conscious of Will people actually use this 927 00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:29,700 product and like how good will it be? 928 00:57:29,700 --> 00:57:31,700 And especially if you thinking more of like a consumer 929 00:57:31,700 --> 00:57:35,400 audience, it it needs to be very polished and I don't think you 930 00:57:35,700 --> 00:57:40,100 can have that many rough edges before people sort of just get 931 00:57:40,100 --> 00:57:42,300 annoyed and don't use it. So yeah. 932 00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:47,000 Yeah fan of. Anyway basically if you look at 933 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,900 you and Trends, I actually do this regularly at least every 934 00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:52,700 other day or so, just because it's super interesting to kind 935 00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:56,200 of see what other people find interesting in Korea. 936 00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,600 Right? So in a way you kind of get a 937 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,500 front row seat to developments in the ecosystem. 938 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,500 So what's your take on where we are at? 939 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:11,600 And what should we collectively? Pay more attention to? 940 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:15,200 Yeah. No. 941 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:20,600 I definitely have a hope that that people can be a bit less on 942 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,500 Twitter and be a bit more on on trending dashboards on doing. 943 00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,000 And we can get even better at surfacing like what you should 944 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,700 actually look at. And that hack can just as well 945 00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:33,300 be, you know, discovered by looking at trending dashboards 946 00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:41,200 on doing us as on Twitter per se but yeah, I think a good thing 947 00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,700 to think about now is, is kind of risks. 948 00:58:44,100 --> 00:58:47,000 You know, there's all these pullouts. 949 00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:49,400 Obviously, a lot of this was actually not on chain products, 950 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:54,400 but through things just like in the industry, that, that was of 951 00:58:54,400 --> 00:59:02,400 chain, but I think understanding the risks, I think it's a good 952 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,200 idea. And I guess people are now 953 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,600 second-guessing, so everything and all their exposure and all 954 00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,300 kinds of different products. And what may The isms kind of 955 00:59:12,300 --> 00:59:16,100 actually make sense. So I feel like, you know again 956 00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:17,500 this is one of the powerful things of doing. 957 00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:22,000 It's like instead of sticking your money into a black box and 958 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,100 hoping that someone is taking care of it, like you can 959 00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:28,400 actually do your own research in terms of what that box is and 960 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,600 what's in it and you know what, the exposure might be or not. 961 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:38,600 So I feel like it all some of these sort of dissecting. 962 00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:41,900 I as I mentioned maker, Dow have I actually don't like really 963 00:59:41,900 --> 00:59:45,100 good job but exposing their balance sheet, but that type of 964 00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:48,100 exercise for more products, I think make sense. 965 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,500 What's in there? If you're getting some interest 966 00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:54,300 rate, you know what what's the reason for that? 967 00:59:54,300 --> 00:59:56,800 You can actually see what kind of exposures sits on the other 968 00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,100 end. Right, I guess. 969 00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:01,700 One thing that we also shortly mentioned at the start, was 970 01:00:01,900 --> 01:00:07,000 basically FTX and, and that Fallout as you mentioned. 971 01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:10,900 So I guess one question is obviously Dune focused on on 972 01:00:10,900 --> 01:00:14,200 chain data. Do you think do and can also 973 01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,600 help these kind of centralized parties or do we need to like 974 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:22,500 move everything on chain? What's your what's your take on 975 01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:25,100 that? Yeah, I think we can, we can 976 01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:29,200 definitely help. We have Relatively new like 977 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,600 labels datasets that anyone can contribute to. 978 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:38,200 And I'd say you know we have some work to do to maybe 979 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,800 streamline this and make it easier for the exchanges to do 980 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,800 actually show. You know, what their addresses 981 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,200 are but my sense is that, you know, the the actually 982 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:49,500 legitimate exchanges now, see him. 983 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,900 You know, they care a lot about confidence that people have in 984 01:00:53,900 --> 01:01:00,200 their business so they are quite The king to, to show, you know 985 01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:04,800 what their exposures are and what their own chain activity. 986 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,000 Looks like and definitely. I think, you know, we have 987 01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:12,000 helped surface some of that and you community. 988 01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:15,200 One thing I find amazing is like, whenever something 989 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,200 happens, there is instantly dashboard, you know, right away 990 01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,000 that track, what's happening on chain related to whatever event 991 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,700 including FDX, in Alameda. But I think we have a job to do 992 01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:30,600 too. Make it easier to sort of have 993 01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,200 the exchanges, actually, you know, verify this or say you 994 01:01:33,207 --> 01:01:35,600 know, these are or addresses and easier. 995 01:01:36,300 --> 01:01:39,800 Instead of just like sort of submitting a blog post or 996 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,800 whatever would like a list, you know, actually make it into an 997 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,900 experience where a user can say. Oh, this is what they said, 998 01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:50,300 their addresses are on. Here's the related activity on 999 01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:52,200 chain, right? Yeah. 1000 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,000 But it can only ever be like a part of the puzzle, right? 1001 01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:00,600 Because there's no way of really tracking Liabilities on, Jane 1002 01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:02,000 depends. I mean, obviously some 1003 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,200 liabilities you could but, you know, no, no, that's true, 1004 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,000 that's true. Of course, like, you know, and I 1005 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:13,100 think there will always be off chain lending and leverage, and 1006 01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:17,100 agreements, and whatnot. So we can, of course, only track 1007 01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:22,000 for some chain but of course, the one chain products there, 1008 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,300 you can actually see the exposure. 1009 01:02:23,300 --> 01:02:28,100 So I guess the solution is both more info from from the Of chain 1010 01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:32,900 businesses, but also hopefully a bit more on chain usage as well. 1011 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,000 So it's kind of like what's next for June? 1012 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,600 You have 50 people working on stuff, so what can we expect? 1013 01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:49,300 Yes, you can expect the June API, which is a very powerful 1014 01:02:50,900 --> 01:02:54,400 thing I think. And you can expect, we are 1015 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,900 launching more team functionality. 1016 01:02:55,900 --> 01:03:00,700 So people can more easily collaborate both in the private 1017 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,800 and public setting. So you can get, you know, into 1018 01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,400 it with your team or working on more ways for people to create 1019 01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:13,000 data sets and contribute, make it easier to cast spells as well 1020 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,900 as Say in the Spellbook product create more of their own data 1021 01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:19,900 tables. We're working on some very, very 1022 01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:23,000 exciting sort of ways to make this interacting with this 1023 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,800 state. I'm more performant and sort of 1024 01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,600 we are investing very deeply in the quarian querying experience 1025 01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,400 on doing helping both in sort of the interface layer but also in 1026 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:40,000 the data inquiry, engine layer, to make it the most performance 1027 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,700 experience out there. That's one of the benefits of Of 1028 01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:47,600 the scale we have is that we you know, you asked earlier like 1029 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:51,200 what do people do and part of the answer is like we're really 1030 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,900 something that's not announced yet even but like your we're 1031 01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:59,500 going very deep into the stack and customizing it for the world 1032 01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:01,600 of blockchains. And I think it's a unique thing 1033 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,300 that we have this predefined data set, that's like somewhat 1034 01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:09,600 structured and we want to build something that's like uniquely 1035 01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:14,700 tailored for that experience versus most with other data 1036 01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:18,400 products are built for some arbitrary data, set being 1037 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,400 plugged into it because the nature of datasets has been very 1038 01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:27,400 heterogeneous. So in general, we just trying to 1039 01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,700 make it easier to do more experiments, do more building 1040 01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:35,100 and learning and in various different ways. 1041 01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:38,800 So yeah that's what we're up to. Super exciting. 1042 01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,000 So where do where do people go? To kind of learn more about do 1043 01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,800 not get help building. Their first carries, is the 1044 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,500 Discord where everything where everyone is at? 1045 01:04:49,500 --> 01:04:52,800 Yeah, there is doing.com where you can see all the dashboard, 1046 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:54,900 see what's trending, all that, good stuff. 1047 01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,400 We have a community tab on top, right next, to the new query 1048 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:05,300 button, where you can no see all the learning material, find the 1049 01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:07,000 Discord and connect with the community. 1050 01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:09,600 T. We're at June analytics on 1051 01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,600 Twitter where you can see a lot of what's being built. 1052 01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:16,300 We have a Weekly Newsletter with a lot of great breakdowns and 1053 01:05:16,300 --> 01:05:19,900 Analysis Based on data. For instance, the new units walk 1054 01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:23,400 research post on the like what happened with the uni token 1055 01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,700 airdrop and what that turned into on chain. 1056 01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:29,000 So, yeah, we're pretty accessible. 1057 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:34,100 It's if you're curious and interested in data, I think 1058 01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:37,300 we're pretty easy to find and hopefully we'll make Our life 1059 01:05:37,300 --> 01:05:40,500 easy and exciting. Awesome. 1060 01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:42,400 Thanks so much Frederick for coming on. 1061 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,600 I think this is a great place to wrap up. 1062 01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:49,500 So yeah we're excited to try out the API and yeah, hope to have 1063 01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:51,800 you on at some point again in the future. 1064 01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:54,800 Thank you so much for having me and congrats on. 1065 01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,300 I don't know 478 episode or something is that? 1066 01:05:58,300 --> 01:06:02,100 We're at that's very impressive consistency. 1067 01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,700 I think it's 172 is almost 10 years. 1068 01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:09,600 Now we've missed one week. This is still a sore spot for 1069 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,100 us. But yeah, we missed one. 1070 01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,300 That's so impressive. It's not to be underestimated. 1071 01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:17,000 How hard it is to do something for a long time. 1072 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,900 So well done. Congrats to you guys. 1073 01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:25,100 Thank you, Frederick. Thank you for joining us on this 1074 01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:27,500 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1075 01:06:27,500 --> 01:06:29,500 week. You can find And subscribe to 1076 01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:33,200 the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 1077 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,600 you listen to podcast. And if you have a Google home or 1078 01:06:35,607 --> 01:06:38,400 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 1079 01:06:38,408 --> 01:06:42,400 the epicenter podcast, go to epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for 1080 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,000 a full list of places where you can watch and listen, while 1081 01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,300 you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get 1082 01:06:47,300 --> 01:06:50,600 new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to 1083 01:06:50,607 --> 01:06:54,000 interact with us guests or other podcast listeners, you can On 1084 01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,000 Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes helps people 1085 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,900 find the show and we're always happy to read them. 1086 01:06:59,700 --> 01:07:02,400 Well thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week. 1087 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,000 On Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes helps people 1088 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,900 find the show and we're always happy to read them. 1089 01:06:59,700 --> 01:07:02,400 Well thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.