1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,600 Welcome to epicenter. The show is talks about the 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,200 Technologies projects and people driving decentralisation and the 3 00:00:18,208 --> 00:00:20,200 blockchain revolution. I'm suggesting with you. 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,700 And I'm here with my co-host, Brian crane. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,600 Today, we're speaking with Zaki mannion, co-founder of 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,700 occlusion, and Ethan, Bachmann co-founder of Cosmos and head 7 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:33,500 accountant had Formal now he's a CEO of informal but based on how 8 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:35,200 he's dressed, he could be the HR manager. 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,100 But I will be talking about adding 3.0 and Diving deep into 10 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:42,200 this topic, which I feel like I've been just talking about for 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,800 the last three weeks non-stop. Unlike podcast interspaces and 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,700 everywhere. But hopefully, we have to the 13 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:50,600 bottom of it today before we talk to Zach and Ethan about the 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,800 people in the white paper and some of the recent changes, 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,800 their first like to tell you about our sponsor this week. 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,800 And that is Tallyho, Tallyho is an open source wallet, really? 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,900 Finding the wallet as a public. 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Type over a hundred thousand 29 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:41,700 people signed up to their Community pledge. 30 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:45,800 It's a letter to the way through Community orchestrating their 31 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,600 commitment to building a well, that accessible for everyone, 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,100 radically transparent and fully community-owned. 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,600 Tallyho isn't just building a wall of that work. 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,100 Stella who's building a web three wallet that you can 35 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:58,800 believe in. It's time to defend web 3. 36 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,800 Visit tally. Ash sign, the pledge and 37 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,300 download the wallet. Also, we're hiring we're looking 38 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,400 for a community manager to help grow our audience and take 39 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,000 epicenter of the neck. Lex level. 40 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:11,400 If you're a passionate about crypto and creating great 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,400 content, we want to hear from you full details can be found at 42 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,700 careers dot chorus, dot 1, ÷ ö, ÷ ö, epicenter, Dash Community, 43 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:22,700 Dash manager. That's a bit of a mouthful. 44 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:26,100 We'll put that in the show notes and please show this with 45 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:29,800 anyone, you think might be a good fit for this position, so 46 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:33,100 Thank you for joining us guys. For this very important 47 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:36,800 conversation about Adam 2.0. Yeah, give us a bit of a. 48 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:39,500 Give us the arch of how this, how we got here. 49 00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:41,800 Yeah, I don't point. I was announced that Cosmo verse 50 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,100 I guess now three weeks ago. What's happened since then and 51 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:51,000 did it go as you expected. I mean I think the main the main 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,200 goal was to kick off a vigorous conversation about our Adam 53 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,300 political economy and I think that has clearly been achieved 54 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:01,300 this is the most you know vigorous set of discussions 55 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:05,600 we've seen today that it's quite delightful to actually see all 56 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,100 that and you know to see the passion and enthusiasm about 57 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:13,100 about the project and there were some very bold you know offers 58 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:18,100 let's say in the paper and so there's you know, Rightly. 59 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,100 So there's that's kicked off a lot of discussion, some 60 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:22,500 controversy, you know there's there's going to need to be 61 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,200 changes but you know we wanted we wanted to kick this thing off 62 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,500 with a bang and put out a really strong vision for what the 63 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:32,500 future of the cosmos up could look like and that should 64 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,400 include some you know, potentially large controversial. 65 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,800 Controversial changes that might need to get worked out. 66 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,200 And so I think we're really excited about the level of 67 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,400 Engagement we've seen. And, you know, there's work now, 68 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,200 on a charter, there's a lot of discussions around, you know, 69 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,500 how We're going to do governance moving forward and all this 70 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:52,600 stuff. And so you know, at Kauffman 71 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 verse, I sort of talked about how there's these sort of three 72 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,700 big faces of Cosmos, you know, start with this initiation 73 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:00,100 phase, which we completed, which started with a white paper, 74 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:01,500 which we shipping completion, right? 75 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:04,100 And now, we're moving into the integration phase and this has 76 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,200 its own white paper for the Hub. But, you know, there's a lot 77 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,200 more to it. It's really about upgrading the 78 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,200 overall political economy of the interchain ecosystem of the 79 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,400 cosmos Hub. And and, and that process is 80 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,899 kicking off now. So, you know, this podcast and 81 00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:19,100 all the other discussion These are kind of a big part of that. 82 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:21,399 So yeah. And what's that? 83 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,000 What's that face? Three phase 3 I called the 84 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,500 illumination phase. We're all finally awakened to, 85 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,800 you know, the reality of the payments graph and and, and 86 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,900 crypto finally has its impact on the world and we can break out 87 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:36,100 of our, you know, speculative crypto Bubbles and actually you 88 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:38,900 know, meaningfully restructure, the global monetary system. 89 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,600 So of course, I'll have to be wearing. 90 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:44,500 Yeah, I might need a different tie for that. 91 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:46,600 You're going to need a three-piece suit for that one? 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,400 Yeah, exactly. I gotta be the tax. 93 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:54,600 Maybe one thing we can also I think makes sense to ask about 94 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,300 this point. So we have this white paper, 95 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:58,600 right? And there was a lot of authors 96 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,800 on there, there's like ten people and then I think there's 97 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,400 like, you know, other people that were involved in some way 98 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,700 that, you know, aren't even on there. 99 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:09,000 So can you talk a bit about like, what first of all, what 100 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,300 was the goal of this white paper and what was the process of 101 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:15,100 writing this paper? Okay. 102 00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:18,100 So maybe I can I can come at the the two things. 103 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:24,500 One, the goal of this white paper is to is to let out a 104 00:05:24,500 --> 00:05:27,900 vision from that basically takes. 105 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:32,100 I think there is a group of people who work on Cosmos who 106 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:34,600 feel like the cosmos Hub has been abandoned. 107 00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:39,300 That was like a it was it was just collectively abandoned over 108 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:43,300 the last few years. It did not have any strong 109 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:46,600 vision. So many people who used to work 110 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,000 on, you know, Adam and the cosmos Hub started their own 111 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,500 chains. You know you have this vast post 112 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,500 all in B diaspora. You certainly had a team at the 113 00:05:56,500 --> 00:06:00,500 inner chain Foundation but they, their mandate was much more like 114 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:04,600 maintenance and following a relatively conservative roadmap. 115 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:08,400 Not, you know, change what? Adam is change, what? 116 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,500 Adam means, all this stuff. What? 117 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:13,800 Like the whole, you know, the whole political economy about 118 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,900 Adam? We had an ambitious roadmap, 119 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,000 tried it. Try to even imagine what Adam 120 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,100 would look like. As I could tell top-10 crypto 121 00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:23,100 acid, what an atom looks like as a driving force for change for 122 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:26,900 like, all of, like like economics. 123 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:29,900 Generally, like how do we so. So there's like just sort of 124 00:06:29,900 --> 00:06:33,300 this abandonment and lack of ambition that was like pervading 125 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:37,400 the cosmos Hub as a culture. Also, the political economy of 126 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,100 the cosmos I was in The NeverEnding sort of back and 127 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:45,600 forth between all in bits and the ICF Birth who is supposed to 128 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,800 even be involved in charge of this thing with neither party 129 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,700 really wanting to be in charge. And so like that was, that's 130 00:06:53,700 --> 00:06:56,200 kind of the framework. The framework was break out of 131 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,800 that cycle. The second component of it was. 132 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,800 So then, what was the process? Like the process was like, in 133 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:08,300 short of, I would say. So, you know, the liquid staking 134 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:10,900 work that inclusion has been working on has been going on 135 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:14,200 since 2021. It took quite a bit, you know. 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,100 Has been. It's been it's been a slow 137 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:19,800 burned, bring to figure out how to make liquid staking. 138 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:23,000 And it liquid, staking always seemed like a very important 139 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,500 formative because of the fact that we don't want to have defy 140 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:29,700 on the Hub. We needed to figure out like 141 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:34,300 liquid speaking is a very natural solution to the problem 142 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:38,400 of how do we get out of an exponential issuance regime? 143 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,000 And if you're as long as you're walked into the exponential 144 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,200 issuance regime like your ability to change anything else 145 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:48,100 Is very limited, right? Like the the potential 146 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:51,000 capabilities of. So we have this like, sort of 147 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,600 long-term thing where like the occlusion, co-founders me 148 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,200 Christie, Tony Cella, a team at occlusion. 149 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,500 Have been like diligently, pushing forward, liquid staking, 150 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:04,100 because of the fact that it unlocks a lot of other 151 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:07,900 possibilities, but the other thing that we saw during the 152 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:13,900 sort of, you know, 2021 cycle is we saw a lot of new economic 153 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:15,500 crypto. Make experiments. 154 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,300 We saw Mev become go from being like a thing that people have 155 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:22,400 been in the cosmos Community have been hypothesizing about 156 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,200 since 2015 and 2016 becoming like an actual industry. 157 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:33,600 We saw like, you know, Sonny was tweeting about and like sunning 158 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,500 and me internet. Oh, like DMS about, you know, 159 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:41,200 how fascinating the like Olympus Dow mechanism was and all of 160 00:08:41,208 --> 00:08:44,300 these things, kind of got sort of eventually started. 161 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,000 Come together as a set of building blocks. 162 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,000 And then, an R&D effort was kicked off with many, many 163 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,200 people, many of whom are authors, but many more people 164 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,400 are not authors. We also, you know, we like 165 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,100 Christy and myself, we invested in Mecca Tech. 166 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:03,600 We invested in skip. We were talking to all of the 167 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,600 Mev people. I spent a lot of time at the 168 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,300 fleshpots people. There's this like whole research 169 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:13,600 effort that like was just kind of many different people. 170 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,700 I met Max, She want me to, you know, really turn the allocator 171 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:21,300 from being just like a set of bullet points for a long time. 172 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,500 I met him at the hallways of Oz work on and Max and Sam were 173 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:26,600 able to like work together to turn the alligator and do it 174 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,600 like a fully fleshed-out idea or at least a partially flushed out 175 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,100 idea. You know the idea of you know 176 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,800 Jahan and the and like the informal ICS team became like 177 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,200 big contributors to the idea of the scheduler. 178 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,700 Sam also is a huge driver of the schedule or idea but we all talk 179 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:47,800 to Our friends at Skip and megatech extensively. 180 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:51,400 So like there's just this whole sort of somewhat organic, 181 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,100 Community Driven R&D effort to try and bring all these pieces 182 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:58,100 together and then we decided to set ourselves a hard deadline of 183 00:09:58,100 --> 00:09:59,700 having something big to announce. 184 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:03,800 It caused me a verse and and we were able to get a draft of the 185 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,800 white paper out by then and kick off this conversation. 186 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,800 Yeah, I think this is one of the things that stands out regarding 187 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,400 the right here, but it's just, there's a lot in there, right? 188 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,200 There's a lot of different, you know, things have been worked on 189 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:20,400 and, you know, on a new things, right? 190 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,700 So some things that I think are like reasonably well known and 191 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:24,500 some things, I think we're very new. 192 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:27,100 So I think maybe we'll make sense as we can talk a little 193 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:31,100 bit about some of those changes that, you know, either are like 194 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,400 coming and in works or that are, you know, being proposed here 195 00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:38,500 and then talk. And then maybe step it. 196 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:40,900 Take a step back talk. Also about governance is entire 197 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:44,400 process and maybe, but I would say, let's start with 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,500 interchange security. I think interchange security is 199 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:50,300 something we've actually never talked about on this podcast. 200 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:53,400 I think in the cosmos communities like reasonably well 201 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,900 known, but I think I wouldn't say it's something that's well 202 00:10:57,900 --> 00:10:59,600 known in a large group the community. 203 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,800 So like what interchange security and what is the role 204 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,600 that information security will play in Cosmos in the future? 205 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,700 So if you don't mind, Before we going, we go into interchange 206 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,700 security because the just to add a little bit more framing to the 207 00:11:11,708 --> 00:11:13,800 structure of the white paper. And you know why we would jump 208 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,500 right into injured, interchange security at a high level. 209 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,800 You know, the white paper is really putting forth like three 210 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,100 key pieces that of like how to think about the future of the 211 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,200 hop, right? The first is that there's a new 212 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,200 secure economic scaling layer, that includes interchange 213 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:30,900 security and liquid state, right? 214 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:33,900 And it proposes that interchange security is the way to build new 215 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:36,400 functionality for the Hub and liquid staking is the way to 216 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,300 extend. The economic zone of the cosmos, 217 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:41,400 not like certain sake, was referring to before, right? 218 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,400 And and and you know, that inclusion, did all this work on 219 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,600 it on limits, taking photos are all this work on interchange 220 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,800 security to set this foundation for how we could extend the sort 221 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,300 of economic reality of the Hub. So, that's the base layer, 222 00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:55,000 right? And in some sense, the everyone 223 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,900 kind of knew where was supportive of these two kind of 224 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:00,000 key features, but then the question, the paper want to 225 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,400 answer is, well, how do we build an actual product out of this 226 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,200 and a vision for the Hub that is built on top of this news, 227 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,900 secure economic Base layer. And so, you know, the next sort 228 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:12,100 of key piece of the papers that okay, we can create an economic 229 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:14,700 flywheel on top of these two things. 230 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,200 Using, you know, these new proposals of The Interchange 231 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,400 scheduler and the interchain allocator, which we can 232 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,800 obviously get into, in a lot more in a lot more detail later 233 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,700 on. And then, in order, you know, in 234 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:27,100 order to make all of this work, it's going to require basically 235 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:30,000 a new governance system and and treasury to oversee development 236 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,300 and facilitate the sort of on chain on chain coordination. 237 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:34,500 So those are really the three pieces. 238 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:37,400 Secure economic scaling, the economic flywheel with The 239 00:12:37,408 --> 00:12:39,300 scheduler in the allocator, and then the governance and the 240 00:12:39,308 --> 00:12:42,300 treasury, and the being proposed as an integrated whole, because 241 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,600 the idea is that we kind of need all of this to put forward a 242 00:12:44,608 --> 00:12:47,200 new, a new vision for the ha, right? 243 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:49,800 So that's the kind of higher level, higher level Framing and 244 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,900 then we could start going through, you know, all the 245 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:53,900 different, all the different pieces. 246 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:55,600 And so, starting with interchange security, the Crux 247 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,400 of energy and security, you know, just just base layer is, 248 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,800 you know, we want the Hub to be a simple. 249 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:07,200 Minimalistic low surface area. High-security, trusted reliable. 250 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:10,800 Will place to custody assets to you know enter the ecosystem to 251 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,700 integrate against and and so on and that requires a particular 252 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,900 kind of care around its software development life cycle and 253 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:20,900 because there isn't a virtual machine on the Hub and there's 254 00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:24,100 General agreement that there that there ought not to be a 255 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:27,300 virtual machine on the Hub. The, the idea is that the proper 256 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,600 way to extend, the functionality of the Hub is to follow, you 257 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,000 know, standard good software development principles of 258 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,900 modularity, you know, and build things in separate modular. 259 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:39,600 Donuts. And because we have IBC because 260 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,000 we have the power of 10 or mention all this amazing stuff. 261 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,500 We can actually build additional functionality for the Hub. 262 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,700 As separate block chains, where the validators are the same as 263 00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:51,000 the validators for the cosmos top, right? 264 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 And that's the sort of core base idea of energy insecurity is 265 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,700 it's a way to extend the functionality of the cosmos up 266 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,500 by spinning up. New blockchains that inherit the 267 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,500 same the same validator separate and that can resolve a lot of, 268 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:04,900 you know, tensions. We've seen in the past over 269 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:07,600 governance proposals, some new features wants to be If someone 270 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,600 wants to ship, you know, cause mom's into the hob or something 271 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,300 like that, there's there's you know, a bit contentious boat and 272 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:16,600 there's a lot of concerns around around the security, what kind 273 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,600 of service area this would open up on the Hub and and so on and 274 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,800 so interesting security allows us to preserve the minimalism of 275 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,300 the core Hub, while still allowing the functionality to 276 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:28,900 expand around the hub. Using, you know, all the 277 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,500 protocols and all the, all the pieces we've already built in 278 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:32,800 the sort of bottom-up way, right? 279 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,700 And so while we see many other projects in the ecosystem 280 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:39,500 pursuing, Security Solutions and charting and all these kinds of 281 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:41,200 things and sort of a top-down way. 282 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,600 You know, we built IBC. It was obviously, is a 283 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,500 general-purpose communication protocol for arbitrary State 284 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:50,600 machines essentially, and it was always sort of known that on top 285 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,500 of IBC in a more bottom-up way, we build these more complex 286 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,500 cross chain. Protocols one, obvious one being 287 00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,800 entertained security where you can simply inherit the validator 288 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,400 set from another change. So that's the, that's the sort 289 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,000 of high level high level initial framing. 290 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,700 Of course, you can do a lot more with interchange security, it 291 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,300 can become. A vehicle for other chains that 292 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:11,500 aren't just trying to extend the functionality of the hub for 293 00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:14,200 say, what are you know, looking for a secure validator set to 294 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,400 launch an application and will maybe spin out to a sovereign 295 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,300 change over time or existing Sovereign chains want to spin 296 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,100 and sort of join the economic zone around around the cosmos 297 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:23,900 table. There's a lot more sort of 298 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,500 political economics that can that can play out. 299 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,300 Once you have this feature of interchange security but it's 300 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,700 really a sort of Base functionality that enables the 301 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:36,100 economics economic zone around the Hub to start to expand. 302 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,700 Yeah, I mean I think that you brought it up right? 303 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:45,000 Because I feel like that that's one point where it's maybe 304 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,800 little bit confusing. Sort of you know, what is the 305 00:15:47,808 --> 00:15:50,000 main vision for interchange Security in the future, right? 306 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,100 Because one is okay, there's a hub and you know there's this 307 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,100 idea or let's put Cosmos on the Hop. 308 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:57,500 And then there was resistance is like, okay let's put it in this 309 00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:00,100 separate chain. That still secured by the cosmos 310 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,500 hop by Adams, you know, what's kind of decoupled. 311 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:05,800 So it's it's sort of like maybe good compromise. 312 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:09,200 And you can imagine like different types of things where 313 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,200 like, okay. The Hop says, we want to have 314 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,600 additional functionality and we put it there. 315 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,300 But then the other thing is, is okay. 316 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:20,400 We you just have some some chain and they don't want to run their 317 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800 own validator set, right? And they want to use the 318 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,000 validated set of the cosmos top and then they kind of like 319 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:30,100 buying basically not that dissimilar from something I can 320 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:33,300 polka dot right. Where pair of chain, basically 321 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:35,800 leases the slot and then gets his file data set. 322 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,100 And you know this Security and processing of transactions. 323 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,600 So how do you season the future? Do you think disc there's going 324 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,800 to be, you're going to be able to evolve into, you know, some 325 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,500 marketplace. Where, you know, like lots of 326 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:54,900 new chains can come and kind of bit for places or So first thing 327 00:16:54,900 --> 00:17:00,300 I would say is empirically, I was wrong about interchain 328 00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:02,100 security, I was wrong in a couple of different ways. 329 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:08,900 So one was so like the reason I supported prop 69 was I thought 330 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:13,700 that the demand for energy like energy and security was going to 331 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:18,099 be low for sort of external teams that we wouldn't actually 332 00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:21,800 be able to grow the developer base of the Cosmos Club. 333 00:17:21,808 --> 00:17:24,599 So we would just end up in a Relation where you had like the 334 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,700 same Cosmos of Team supporting like 15 chains. 335 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,500 So for each feet like for features that we wanted on the 336 00:17:31,508 --> 00:17:36,100 cosmos Hub instead of and so that was kind of a little bit of 337 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:40,100 like, why I thought prop 69 was a good, what good thing and I 338 00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:43,100 was completely wrong about this empirically. 339 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,800 Like we have attracted an enormous and expanding set of 340 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Builders into the cosmos. Have ecosystem through the 341 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,200 feature of energy, insecurity, like I was completely wrong 342 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,700 about Out it empirically, you know, just from talking to all 343 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:59,300 these this entire universe of potential users. 344 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,500 There's an enormous amount of latent demand for interchange 345 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:05,800 Securities product. People are very excited about it 346 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,300 and not is a huge factor in how we are, have how we have 347 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,100 started, you know, and and basically going through the 348 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:15,900 sales cycle, like I think the sales cycle of actually trying 349 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:19,300 to convince projects to join inner to use energy and 350 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:24,200 security, like, kicked off, seriously, maybe in the Spring 351 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:30,100 of twenty 20 of this year. Yeah, and so when we, when we 352 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:33,600 kicked that off initially I don't think it was going it was 353 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,900 it was going about as badly as I was expecting and then we just 354 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:41,600 started hitting user after user after user and it has just been 355 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,900 so that like really reshaped, that was a huge influence on the 356 00:18:44,908 --> 00:18:48,700 white paper because it said, hey, like we really do see signs 357 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:51,100 of product Market fit here with interchange security. 358 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,000 We should design the white. A ver to like to like, you know, 359 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,100 push down on the gas and go go as fast as we can. 360 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:01,000 And like, essentially, this become, you know, in some senses 361 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,900 like we're investing in the growth of energy and security, 362 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,000 because we have such strong signal of product Market fit. 363 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,800 Yeah. I mean, I would say, I was, I 364 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,700 was somewhat uncertain about the product Market fit of of 365 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:15,400 interchange security for other chains. 366 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,300 What I was confident and you know, the reason I didn't 367 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,900 support prop, 69 at the time was because it certainly, I always 368 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,000 felt that interchange security was the right way to sort of 369 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,800 offload. Risk of developing The Hub and, 370 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,900 you know, have the Hub be able to serve as this sort of stable 371 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,700 mature kind of minimalistic anchor where you could extend 372 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:33,800 the funk, right? So if you could extend the 373 00:19:33,808 --> 00:19:34,900 functionality with energy insecurity. 374 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:37,900 So even if there wasn't the sort of demand from other change to 375 00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:41,000 use it, there was still a base case just from, you know, better 376 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,900 software development life cycle kind of long-term development of 377 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,500 the systems that made interchange security. 378 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,200 Make sense, just as a way to expand the Hub and expand the 379 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,500 teams of the Hub, right? And once once a formal sort of 380 00:19:51,508 --> 00:19:53,700 got building interchange security, and we had Something 381 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:55,100 real that people could actually start to believe. 382 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:57,400 Oh this is really coming soon. You know, then we started going 383 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,600 to Market and we started to see, you know, maybe somewhat are 384 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,900 surprised some what some people thought it would be you know in 385 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:03,500 high demand. Others were kind of less sure 386 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,900 there seems to be a huge amount of demand for it and and that's 387 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:09,200 going to that's going to change over overtime. 388 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,200 We don't know exactly how it's going to change over time. 389 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,100 We think we could build out a very healthy economy around the 390 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:16,500 cosmos Hub and and that's part of like succubus saying part of 391 00:20:16,508 --> 00:20:19,700 the motivation for the paper was to kind of build on that on what 392 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,000 appears to be, you know, strong product Market fit for for 393 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,900 entertain security. But even without You know you 394 00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:26,500 have to keep in mind that there's still this base case of 395 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:28,800 this is the right way to extend the functionality of the Hub 396 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,800 from a pure like sound software development, kind of principles 397 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,400 perspective and one of the things we are trying to achieve 398 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,300 is to transform the way software is built and deployed right in 399 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,600 the long term that's something Cosmos has been working on for a 400 00:20:39,608 --> 00:20:40,800 long time. That's like part of it, you 401 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,300 know, informal systems mission statement and that's something 402 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:44,700 we're doing. I mean the way the way people 403 00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:47,100 are building block chains today is you know unlike anything they 404 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:49,300 were doing five years ago and we hope that's going to you know 405 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:51,900 continue to have an impact on the wider software development 406 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,100 community. And you know we're trying to 407 00:20:53,108 --> 00:20:55,400 prove That out with these new, these new ways of building on 408 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,800 the internet of blockchains. Oh, One of the things that I 409 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,600 find interesting about endurance Internet Security, I don't know 410 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,500 if this is still in the roadmap, but it's these different 411 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:08,500 versions that have been kind of laid out for how energy Security 412 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:12,600 will will roll out. So the first version I believe, 413 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,500 is this where a chain that's on interchange security, inherits 414 00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,000 the entire validators, that and then there's a second version 415 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,800 where they can inherit a partial about or set or more like an 416 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,400 opt-in relationship with validators. 417 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,200 And then there's As a third version, where they can have 418 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,200 part part of their validator said, be The Interchange 419 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,700 security set. So, like the set that securing 420 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:39,200 the cosmos Hub and then they can also onboard their own 421 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:42,300 validators externally, right? So if another validator, that's 422 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,500 not on the cosmos Hub and part of the energy and security set 423 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,800 that validator could also on board and be part of that change 424 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,200 security. When I first heard this, I 425 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,200 thought there's a logical version 4 and that version 4 is 426 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,100 where like chains are just Dating each other. 427 00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:03,000 And this this idea has been put forth recently by sunny and the 428 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,800 osmosis team and, you know, they're their vision for how we 429 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,100 arrived at say, a more interconnected entertained is 430 00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:16,800 through this message, security model, and I wonder if I'd like 431 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,300 to confront maybe with this like this, this mess Acuity idea does 432 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:26,800 interchange security at some point, become more of a mesh. 433 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:31,100 rather than this more, like, hub-and-spoke model that I think 434 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:36,000 the Hub has been, Carrying for like a long time and is seems to 435 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,500 be carrying in these different versions or at least in this 436 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:40,300 Vision, this been laid out that there's it. 437 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:44,300 Arrived at where everything's just validating and securing 438 00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:47,700 each other at some point that to some extent. 439 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,000 I mean, you know, if you look back at the original at the 440 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,200 original consoles, have white paper. 441 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,100 Yes, it's proposing a hub-and-spoke model but it's not 442 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,800 just proposing one hop, right? It's proposing a multiplicity of 443 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,600 hubs and it's saying we're going to start with, you know, we're 444 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,300 going to build one Hub, but there ought to be others and, 445 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:03,400 and that's in the paper. And so in some Since the, the 446 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,700 topology of the cosmos Network, and you know, what would Now 447 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,300 call, the inner chain was always left open and was always 448 00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:11,200 expected to be a mesh, right? It's not just a pure Hub and 449 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,500 spoke model, but if you look at any any, you know, Network in 450 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:17,200 the real world, they tend to have kind of power law scaling. 451 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,800 They tend to have nodes in a more, you know. 452 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,500 Well, connect and others. They don't have singular hubs 453 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,900 but they do have, you know, it's not like a pure hub-and-spoke, 454 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,900 but it there are no nodes in the network that are considered more 455 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,500 Hub like than than others. And you know, the being a hub is 456 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:33,500 sort of a fractal, how you can look at airports and Um, and, 457 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,000 and things like this as an example. 458 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,700 And so again, that's always been sort of part of the idea of how 459 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,900 the inner chain would emerge, that we would build this 460 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:43,900 permission list communication protocol topology, with what 461 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:47,500 sort of emerge emerge from it. And there are many ways just to 462 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:50,200 share security over the inner chain and have different chains, 463 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,000 or to participate in each other's security budget, you 464 00:23:53,008 --> 00:23:54,700 know, like you sort of articulated here. 465 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:58,100 There's, there's interchange security V1, which you can, at 466 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:00,700 the very least, think about, you know, just as a way, for the Hub 467 00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:04,500 to extend its own functionality There's the fabled V2 and V3, 468 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:06,200 you know what, you're referring to, and then, and then there's 469 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,700 this, you know, V4, I guess you could call mess security. 470 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:11,500 If, if you like, I don't know if they like calling it calling it 471 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,000 before. It's also a very interesting 472 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,800 idea, but there's much there's much more to, right? 473 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,900 There's other ways to kind of share security across the inner 474 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:18,800 chain. There's now ideas around 475 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:21,100 Hemorrhage and his temperament right where you can basically 476 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:22,900 this something we talked about for a few years now especially 477 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:26,100 with the as well with the anoma team where you can leverage 478 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,800 overlap that exists between the validator sets to get stronger, 479 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,900 guarantees out of the consensus and of the ordering. 480 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:35,100 And so And my security sort of a start at that, but it's really 481 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,600 just about, you know, some slashing and, you know, it 482 00:24:37,608 --> 00:24:40,400 doesn't really do much for transaction ordering, whereas we 483 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,500 could do a lot more. So, yeah. 484 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,500 Certainly always been the vision for this interchain to be a 485 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:45,800 match. The same way the internet is a 486 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,800 mesh but like any mesh in nature there, you know, there will tend 487 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,000 to be some kind of power law scaling. 488 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,500 There will be there will be nodes within the mash that are 489 00:24:52,508 --> 00:24:56,500 more Hub like and and the Kosmos Hub through its you know, 490 00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,800 through its mission to be a stable sort of anchor in this 491 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,700 thrashing. See in tends to be one of those 492 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:04,500 hubs not the only Hub maybe not even And the biggest Hub in the 493 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:08,100 long term, but but at least you know, I would hope the longest 494 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,700 standing Hub and and that's what's important to me is that 495 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,400 kind of that kind of long-term ism. 496 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:16,500 If you think of that, I mean of course one of the challenges at 497 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:20,100 least with this initial version of Shades or interchange 498 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:23,300 security is that, you know if you're running a violator on the 499 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:26,000 Hub? Now you also going to have to 500 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,800 run you know this other client right for this other chain and 501 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,300 so sort of like, you know, your demands increase a bit. 502 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:35,700 Now maybe that's like not that bad, but then if you imagine, 503 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:40,200 you know, 100 chains, then like complexity grows a lot. 504 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,500 So curious like what's the You know, like how, how much does 505 00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,400 this scale like? Yeah, I mean there's a there's a 506 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,300 lot of work happening to start thinking about how to make it 507 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,800 scale more, right? And so we can imagine, I mean, 508 00:25:53,808 --> 00:25:54,500 rabbit ears. Today. 509 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:56,900 You know, there's some valid ears that are running a dozen 510 00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:00,000 chains, dozens of chains, there's a lot of work now going 511 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,700 into into 10 remain in the SDK to make them just more 512 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:03,900 vertically. Scalable. 513 00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:06,100 There's, you know, optimizations kind of all over the place that 514 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:08,900 we can be doing to improve things. 515 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,600 And then there are some, you know, there is some research 516 00:26:11,608 --> 00:26:14,000 going on. In at the energy insecurity, 517 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,200 level of how we can make that that more scalable. 518 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,600 And and so there is a lot of opportunity there to improve the 519 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,000 scalability. But, you know, it's funny 520 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,700 because the cosmos is the cosmos vision and approach is always 521 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,300 the same. It's like do the simple thing 522 00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:29,400 that works, you know, that will likely that will likely have 523 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,900 product Market, fit and unlock new opportunities and then 524 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,200 things, you you didn't really know before will emerge to solve 525 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,300 your scalability problems, right? 526 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,600 And you know, as we did that with application-specific 527 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,100 blockchains overlooked. How's this going to scale? 528 00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:41,900 And you know, no one's asking that question anymore. 529 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,700 But Now, we have things like Roll-Ups and all this other, you 530 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:46,500 know, ZK proofs and stuff to help them scale. 531 00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,700 So we're doing a similar thing with energy insecurities like 532 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:50,900 let's do the simplest basic thing building on top of IBC 533 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:53,000 that if you know allows us to extend functionality in a secure 534 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,900 way. And and and we're sure we'll 535 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,900 sort of, you know, be able to take care of scalability in the 536 00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:00,300 longer term, with all the RV that's happening within our 537 00:27:00,308 --> 00:27:01,800 teams around our teams and so on. 538 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,300 So yeah, moving on here to another component of item 2.0 539 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:10,100 and that's liquid staking. And so, you know, if we look at 540 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:15,300 liquid staking is this mechanism Which one can leverage their 541 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:20,900 state Assets in defy, and other like Financial activities? 542 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:24,800 And so, the idea is that you solve this takers dilemma by 543 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,800 allowing State assets to become liquid, or at least some 544 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,100 derivative of that state asset to be liquid. 545 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:34,500 And liquid, staking has been, you know, tried and tested and 546 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:38,000 etherium with like platforms. Like Li do also like, in Solana 547 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,000 and lots of other chains in Cosmos, we've been talking about 548 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,100 liquid staking For a while. And there was a number of 549 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:47,100 participants like companies and startups in the space that are 550 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:48,700 building liquid staking Solutions. 551 00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:50,700 So stride is one of them. Peace. 552 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,200 Take was early to this Market as well. 553 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,300 Quicksilver, of course, what does the cosmos implementation 554 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,400 of liquid staking have, that's unique? 555 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,200 And what are the characteristics of the the cosmos ecosystem as 556 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,900 this kind of, grouping of layer ones have it? 557 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,500 That makes the implementation unique compared to something 558 00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:14,100 like aetherium where you have One layer one. 559 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,500 And basically everyone's taking on the same on the same chain. 560 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:24,800 Yeah, okay, so inclusion has been working, has been sort of 561 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,100 spearheading the the liquid staking. 562 00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:31,600 Well what we've what inclusion is been building is specifically 563 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,600 A Primitive for liquid staking to make liquid sticking adoption 564 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,300 easier. So, you know, in most chains 565 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,200 that have liquid staking they could speak Was sort of an 566 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,900 afterthought in the sense of hey, we we built the system. 567 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:51,700 We had stinking, we need to have stake in order to have to drive 568 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:56,000 to waik secure the consensus layer. 569 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,400 Maybe there's this desire for have liquid sticking on top of 570 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,200 it and then whatever programmability your your your 571 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,800 platform enables you can glue on some liquid staking components 572 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,300 on top of that and, and do it. I would I think of is maybe like 573 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:16,700 the occlusion perspective and what I hope to become the cosmos 574 00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,500 perspective on liquid. Staking his Wicked staking is 575 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,700 not just interesting from a individual Staker trying to 576 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:24,800 optimize their returns point of view. 577 00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:30,800 It's actually unlocks The Dilemma that like was sort of I 578 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,100 think one of them was clear. It was very clearly articulated 579 00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:38,200 in the original Cosmos white paper which was hey, you have 580 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,900 this problem, right? Is everyone, everybody. 581 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:44,800 It's the idea of, you know, cryptocurrencies have been very 582 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,600 attracted this idea of fixed Supply assets, deflationary 583 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,500 assets. These are very powerful ideas, 584 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,500 but if you have a staking system, you have will have other 585 00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,900 economic use cases for your, your stable asset, and you will 586 00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:01,700 constantly have to be in equilibrium. 587 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,600 And the only way to stabilize that equilibrium is to 588 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,700 constantly meant an exponentially increasing amount 589 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:12,100 of those assets. And if you actually get to a 590 00:30:12,108 --> 00:30:17,000 world of large-scale adoption of liquids, taking IE everyone. 591 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,400 Nearly everyone in. Your stinking ecosystem is using 592 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,800 liquid sneaking. You basically have created an it 593 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,400 and use new security ecosystem and you security system in for 594 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,600 the chain that no longer requires exponential inflation 595 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,400 in order to be maintained to be stabilized. 596 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,500 And that's, that's sort of, that's one piece and so what 597 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:41,900 inclusion is, but trying to do Has been trying to make adoption 598 00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:44,500 within the staking Market because basically if there is a 599 00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,600 world in which to adopt liquid, staking you have to, you know, 600 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,300 wait 21 days unstaged, give up 21 days of rewards, just the 601 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,700 workflow of, oh, I'm a user. I'm going to like click a button 602 00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:58,900 on a website. Wait, 21 days, come back to that 603 00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:02,700 website in 21 days. Then like a DOT liquid staking 604 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,300 like the the adoption of looking staking will take forever and 605 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:09,100 what inclusion has been working on. 606 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,500 And is slated to be merged the default Cosmos. 607 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:15,100 That's the case. Taking module is a set of 608 00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:20,700 Primitives that allow you to have life sort of a layer in 609 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:25,900 which people are able to adopt a liquid sneaking solution 610 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,600 instantaneously through a transaction without having to 611 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,200 wait a non-bonding period to join the system. 612 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,600 You want to talk about the expectation and liquid taking is 613 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,800 actually going to be carried out by block chains themselves, 614 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,700 rather than by centralized providers, or interchange 615 00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:40,500 counts, and sort of how that How that connects? 616 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,000 Yeah, yeah that was my next question actually. 617 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,200 I think there's a there's a real user experience challenge here 618 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,900 that were probably going to end up facing which is that you'll 619 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:53,000 have these kind of ecosystem level liquid, staking providers, 620 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,500 like, the ones I mentioned earlier, but then each chain may 621 00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:00,600 also opt to do their own want to capture those assets and do 622 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,700 their own liquid staking. Then we end up in this situation 623 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,700 where you have all these assets, essentially represent very 624 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:10,500 similar things but that aren't fungible, And we already have 625 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:14,900 this problem with USD, stable coins, maybe not so much in 626 00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:17,000 Cosmos, but like any Theory. Mm, there's like a ton of 627 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,600 different USD representative sample points that aren't 628 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,100 fungible. And, you know, for users is very 629 00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:26,300 hard to reason about like what are the security models behind 630 00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:29,600 those those coins. So how do we solve this without 631 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,900 creating like a huge cluster? Fuck. 632 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,800 So I guess a couple of things that are I think are important. 633 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,600 One is so I think that the fact that we have many USD stable 634 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,400 coins is a good thing. It's good for decentralization, 635 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,400 it's good for the economy because basically what you want 636 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,600 to have for like every there are multiple categories that 637 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,600 naturally occur in stable coins optimizing for, you know, 638 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,900 different tolerance, risk Tolerance on minting mechanisms 639 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,000 different regulatory stances different. 640 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,400 You no affiliation And brand affiliations associated with 641 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,100 your stable coin like there's a there's a very large like 642 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:11,000 high-dimensional space of stable, coin designs and it's 643 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,800 good to actually have Market leaders. 644 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,100 Kind of optimizing for each different thing. 645 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,100 What we what I suspect is the case with liquid staking is it 646 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:22,800 is a similar sort of thing where there are at where it is 647 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,100 actually awake. There's a lot of different 648 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:28,900 dimensions to optimize for for with it's taking Solutions and 649 00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:31,200 the whole point of the occlusion with mistake a module. 650 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,100 To make it possible to for people to spend on projects. 651 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,800 It's for all possible sets of optimizations around creating 652 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,900 the great liquid sticking product without specifies doing 653 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:47,100 specifying or picking winners. Just making life easier and you 654 00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:51,200 have better for all of them. And I think the optimal outcome 655 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,000 for Cosmos is in many ways, probably, at least for Adam is 656 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,300 going to be like a liquid state can provider that like wins the 657 00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:04,900 market as like, The permission list retail oriented 658 00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,100 decentralized. No kyc sticking. 659 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,100 Provider, another sticking for liquid state. 660 00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:15,100 A provider is going to hopefully win the like institutional, KY 661 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:18,900 exeed at everyone involved. Like the entire pool is kyc Aid 662 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,900 model. Like and you know, there may be 663 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:26,800 other variables here about how governance works or about how 664 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,600 like liquidity is incentivized and defy by and like whether or 665 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,600 not your energy. Secured and whether or not the 666 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,300 treasury is helping secure liquidity for your asset or 667 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,900 you're an independent Sovereign chain and you're using your own 668 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,600 governance token to incentivize liquidity. 669 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,500 There's so many different variables here that I think it's 670 00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:49,400 particularly, it's probably a good thing that we have a lot of 671 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,500 that. We have a lot of different 672 00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:55,500 choices just at a higher level. Like again, you know, we built, 673 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,000 we built IBC general-purpose protocol for communicating 674 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,800 between blockchains and obviously allows other chains to 675 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,600 steak on each other, right? And liquid-liquid staking is 676 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,000 kind of an inevitability having you can, you can, you know, 677 00:35:07,008 --> 00:35:09,000 stick your head in the sand or or think you're going to play, 678 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,800 you know, whack-a-mole, till the end of time to stop it. 679 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,600 But it's it's it's kind of inevitable. 680 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,500 And so you need to you need to account for that. 681 00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:21,200 And you know, we're moving into a world where ideally more 682 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,200 liquid staking is going to move from the centralized providers 683 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,300 to block chains themselves that are staking the assets back 684 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,800 over, IBC onto the Hub and and the module that it Didn't feel 685 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,500 that gets deployed on the Hub, makes it easier for folks to 686 00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,300 sort of take their stake position from The Hub and move 687 00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:39,100 it onto those liquids taking providers. 688 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:40,600 But it does. So in a way that, you know, 689 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,400 they're initially non fungible on the Hub, right? 690 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:48,100 So it's just like a, you know, a kind of transferable delegation 691 00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:51,900 token but not really a fungible currency by any means that could 692 00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:54,300 then get moved into these liquid taking providers pooled, you 693 00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:58,300 know, have the risk managed and and so on and made made liquid 694 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,300 in various different ways according to you know different 695 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,200 criteria like He was saying it so having having blockchains 696 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,800 themselves, play a larger role in you know, issuing basically 697 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:09,100 you know, a medium of exchange token to circulate within the 698 00:36:09,107 --> 00:36:10,500 wider economy that's backed by state. 699 00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,600 Datum is kind of the the approach here and to build that 700 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,400 representation directly into the system, right? 701 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,900 Where there are, there are realities that exist kind of 702 00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:21,200 potentially outside the system, you want to represent them a 703 00:36:21,207 --> 00:36:23,300 little bit better in the system so that you can manage them and 704 00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,400 monitor them. And and so on, that's also kind 705 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,100 of part of the cosmos philosophy is to try to better represent, 706 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:30,700 you know, the reality of the world within the structure of 707 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,500 the state. Genes are not just like deny 708 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:34,100 something, you know, that you might not like, or you might 709 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:36,800 think, you know, is, you know, his wrist or something. 710 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,100 You actually try to try to bring it on board and manage it 711 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:41,100 explicitly. Absolutely. 712 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:43,400 I think, I think this is going to be very mind-blowing when 713 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,400 people see these interchain account applications that are 714 00:36:46,408 --> 00:36:49,100 going to come. And I think it's going to be 715 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:51,100 really amazing right there. Now, everyone at the power of 716 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:54,200 things here is tourists, are you can build, you liquid, staking 717 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,400 protocol on your own chain and then connect to different 718 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,200 Cosmos, Chain Reaction accounts. And basically it's just like 719 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,400 like we staking out of the Box, which is very different from the 720 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,900 way liquid staking Solutions. Have worked so far, where, you 721 00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:08,300 know, basically each time for each chain, something is 722 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:11,700 developed deployed, you know, it's a lot of effort in there. 723 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,500 And so having that kind of scaling is going to be like, 724 00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:18,600 super powerful People just still probably think of IBC is like 725 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:21,000 some simple token, bridging thing, but it's really not. 726 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,800 It's general-purpose communication protocol for State 727 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,100 machines, and with energy, security, and energy, and 728 00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:27,300 accounts, and energy inquiries. And, you know, a lot of these 729 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:29,900 things that are starting to come online and, you know, will start 730 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:32,300 to have like real product usage. Next year, I think people are 731 00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:35,500 really going to wake up to a new new breed of of 732 00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:37,400 interoperability. That'll really, you know, really 733 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,600 shake things up and get them to kind of really understand where 734 00:37:39,607 --> 00:37:42,900 Cosmos is going and kind of how how far ahead we are in thinking 735 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:46,600 about, you know, in the inner chain and Inter blockchain 736 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,000 communication and so on. Yeah. 737 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,300 So that's very exciting. So we've talked about two things 738 00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:53,600 so far right and you change security liquid staking. 739 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,600 I think actually both of those things are things for basically 740 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,900 like everyone's on board, you know, and it's been in work for 741 00:37:59,900 --> 00:38:03,800 a while and there's not much like controversial discussion 742 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,100 about it. Maybe there's like, I know some 743 00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:09,100 minor things, you know, where people, but like over, all 744 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:10,600 right, babe, pretty much consensus. 745 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,800 And I think that the white paper basically, sort of, you know, 746 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,800 describes the state of If that describes, it's coming with been 747 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,400 in the works, but I do other things in white paper. 748 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,300 Right there are I think very new, very novel and let's get 749 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,300 into those. I think that's also where most 750 00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:29,700 of the discussion has been so interchain allocator, right? 751 00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,400 That's something that I think before this white paper, 752 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,700 probably hardly anybody's heard of you know that wasn't may be 753 00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:38,100 directly involved in the creation of this. 754 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,600 So what is the interchain allocator? 755 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,400 And what's the idea behind it? I'll come up with it from my 756 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:49,400 point of view which is Is when we started Cosmos everybody was 757 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,400 like there was this ongoing there, you know, the most common 758 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,400 critique of Cosmos and the atom token was the technology stack 759 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,800 looks amazing. Like this seems like and like 760 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,700 you have product Market fit. I'm on Builders like lots of 761 00:39:02,700 --> 00:39:06,700 teams like want to build on you. Why does the Adam accrue value? 762 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,300 And so you know, even from like the very beginning when you know 763 00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,100 polka dot basically, forked the white paper, they were like 764 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:15,700 okay, we're going to have scarcity. 765 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,500 The pair of chain options, that's going to be aligned 766 00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:22,000 incentives, between like the security layer, the beacon chain 767 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,600 rare and the application layer and my immediate criticism of 768 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,300 that idea. Was well, no one who is a really 769 00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:34,300 great Builder is going to pay to join your ecosystem. 770 00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,600 They're going to like like Sovereign, chains will exist. 771 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,700 You will be able to build outside of your ecosystem. 772 00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,700 Like you're not going. You're going to adversely select 773 00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:45,400 out the best builders for doing that. 774 00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:49,300 And we've constantly struggled with hey, like what would make 775 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,100 what overcomes adversity? Like, how can you align an asset 776 00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:58,800 with an ecosystem without introducing adverse selection? 777 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,800 And there's a second problem, which I would say is going on in 778 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:11,300 the cosmos ecosystem, which is we want to figure out a way of 779 00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:16,500 generating revenue for the cosmos Hub to pay for the Budget 780 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:19,300 and pay for, you know, the ongoing development in the 781 00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,800 ongoing Rd and all of the stuff that isn't generally. 782 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,700 Basically like printing you tokens like that is genuine cash 783 00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:31,600 flows. And so as we've seen as sort of 784 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,900 defy, took off over the last two years, we've actually seen that 785 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:41,000 both Mev and some forms of yield like providing liquidity, 786 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,900 especially in stable, coin assets, can be it's reflexive 787 00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:49,100 but like, Do represent real cash flows and not just, you know, 788 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:54,500 people buying speculative Assets in the system and so the 789 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:59,300 question has been okay? What we need to be able to do 790 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,700 like the fiery, the architecture of growing. 791 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:09,300 The Cosmos Club economy is having the ability to strike 792 00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:14,700 deals with Builders with new Chains, new applications to be 793 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:19,200 like, hey, We want to support your application, we want to 794 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,400 partnership between Adam and the application and then we want to 795 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,600 leverage that partnership to make sure that Adam holders are 796 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,600 getting access to real cash flows that are coming out of 797 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,000 your application. Whether they are transaction 798 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,600 fees, whether they are Meb, whether or not there is a source 799 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,900 of true quite cash flow, positive yield that is coming 800 00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:45,200 out of your system. An example would be like the 801 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,100 liquid. Any between a bunch of different 802 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:49,900 variants of ICS secured State data. 803 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,100 So, if we have a whole bunch of stinking derivatives that are 804 00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:55,700 liquidity pools between them, that is actually like source of 805 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,100 real yield and real cash flow. That can be tapped into by 806 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,000 positive in the same way. Like if your originating their 807 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,000 state assets and then doing it a transaction providing like best 808 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,900 execution as a service by the scheduler is real cash flow. 809 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:14,100 So like the idea is this whole thing is one system but it's 810 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:18,700 basically how do we get out? Stu real cash flow within the 811 00:42:18,707 --> 00:42:21,900 cosmos ecosystem. And basically we think that like 812 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:25,900 no other blockchain has ever really tried in a serious way, 813 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:28,700 probably etherium with some of their economic changes of 814 00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:32,900 probably than the closest to try and tap into real cash flows as 815 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:35,700 a way of sustaining the security verb object. 816 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,300 But I think we all know that like the Block Chain space 817 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:41,200 cannot survive. If like, that is not the 818 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,500 frontier of experimentation. And so this is why I didn't like 819 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:47,400 the core motivating. Dr. Of the allocator of the 820 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,600 allocator is just a piece of this whole system of trying to 821 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,100 get access to real cash, flows into the security bunch of 822 00:42:53,100 --> 00:42:54,900 customers. Yeah. 823 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:57,300 So I mean to add to that. I mean like, you know, the 824 00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,700 interchange is obviously going to be way bigger than the cosmos 825 00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:03,600 Hub and and already is. And the Hub is, you know, is it 826 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,600 is positioned well to lead and Steward the inner chain and to 827 00:43:06,607 --> 00:43:09,100 help it grow. And we've already seen, you 828 00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:12,200 know, there's always been a question around alignment 829 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,100 between the Hub and and the rest of the interchain we've already 830 00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:20,400 seen a kind Natural approach to incentive alignment with, with 831 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,200 the cosmos table with Adam holders which has been through 832 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,300 air drops, right? And I sort of like the way Zaki 833 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,400 framed it in, in his in his talk and some other time I've heard 834 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,200 him. Talk about, you know, the 835 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,700 allocator. And what's happening, there is 836 00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:34,400 like air drops are a kind of informal off chain, you know, 837 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,300 way to do incentive alignment, but we've seen a lot of them, 838 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,000 they've obviously, you know, created a tremendous amount 839 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,000 amount of value and bootstrapping within the 840 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,600 ecosystem and very, very Ways to do that. 841 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,100 And the idea behind the allocator is to actually, you 842 00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:51,200 know, formalize that Better Built Tools around it, make it 843 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,500 something that can be arranged kind of more directly to create 844 00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:56,900 the incentive alignment and more concrete, sort of political 845 00:43:56,900 --> 00:44:00,300 economic relationships, between between different block, chains 846 00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:02,600 again, over IBC. Using all the native kind of 847 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:03,900 cooling. We have governance 848 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:06,500 functionality, IBC, functionality, and and other 849 00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:10,600 kinds of modules to be built to actually, you know, enable The 850 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,900 Hub to, to help grow the whole inner chain and build something 851 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:15,500 that's, you know, that continues to be. 852 00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:18,400 Larger much larger than itself, right? 853 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,700 So the Hub as sort of being seen as something that helps initiate 854 00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:24,900 this thing that is stewarding this thing and can remain 855 00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:27,600 somewhat incentive aligned with something that is, you know, 856 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,800 whose goal was to be much, much bigger than it. 857 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,200 And and, and ultimately ultimately kind of successful on 858 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,500 its own. And the alligator is a way to 859 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:37,700 sort of, you know, help continue that process. 860 00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:41,200 That was a bootstrap with with airdrops, but to become more 861 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,800 formalized and something that could start to be, you know, 862 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,900 reasoned about and more more sophisticated ways and could 863 00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,200 build out, you know, additional kinds of products and 864 00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:52,000 infrastructure and offerings, that can help change that are 865 00:44:52,008 --> 00:44:54,200 booting up or that are, you know, entering new phases in 866 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,900 their life cycle, their leverage, the benefits of the 867 00:44:56,900 --> 00:44:59,600 Hub, you know, to help them sort of Go off into this into this 868 00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:04,400 thrashing, see of the interchange One of the things 869 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,600 that the paper talks about is the talks about the structure 870 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,200 for funds to be distributed through the allocator. 871 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,700 And so I think this is the thing. 872 00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:18,000 Maybe that was the the least understood at least I went to 873 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,700 reading the white paper. It wasn't clear, like, how this 874 00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:21,800 would work. And I think the thinking around 875 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,200 this has also evolved in the last couple of weeks since it 876 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,100 was announced. So, can you give us an example 877 00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:31,400 of what do you think when the alligator is deployed? 878 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,100 And There are funds in the treasury and those funds are 879 00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:38,600 meant to be effectively allocated, was this going to 880 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,600 look like talk about, you know, the these councils and this 881 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,400 community council and how is that governance got process 882 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,600 going to work and what are the assurances that Adam holders 883 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,000 have that funds are not going to be misallocated or Miss spent. 884 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,800 Because I think that's been one of the main criticisms of this 885 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,800 is the fear of Miss, allocation of funds, and things with things 886 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,100 like that. Yeah. 887 00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:06,500 I mean the goal is to is to be setting up much more mature 888 00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:10,600 governance processes, right? And that's something we have to 889 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,400 do together, that's something that's going to have to be 890 00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:15,700 architected between core developers. 891 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:19,700 Adam holders community members, you know people who are, who can 892 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,400 oversee oversee funding. There's a lot of work happening. 893 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,000 For instance, on the ICF side. Now, to restructure things to, 894 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,500 you know, we're setting up the TA be the technical Advisory 895 00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:30,500 board. We're bringing these bringing 896 00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:33,700 folks together to try to match. Chur the, the funding process 897 00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,900 and we're using new language to describe the commitments we make 898 00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:38,400 to each other. The promises I was crew follow 899 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,100 up on things and and so there's a lot to mature there and we 900 00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,300 want to bring a lot of that on chain as well and the reality is 901 00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:48,300 it's not all entirely entirely specced out yet it's something 902 00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:51,300 we have to we have to figure out together over time and to get 903 00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:54,800 started you know were the The Proposal is to have some you 904 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,600 know, concrete things we can do that. 905 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,100 Include some limits, include some checks and balances as a 906 00:46:59,107 --> 00:47:01,600 way, you know, to start kicking things off. 907 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:02,900 Right? Because we have this situation 908 00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:06,500 with the cosmos that we have, you know, we have a community 909 00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:08,600 pool. It's very small in the in the 910 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,300 grand scheme of community pools. And there, it has funded a few 911 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:17,200 things that have been actually quite successful. 912 00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:20,400 But it hasn't it hasn't funded core development hasn't funded. 913 00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:22,200 It's kind of a little bit of core development, but not, you 914 00:47:22,207 --> 00:47:25,400 know, not really not really much in the scheme of stuff being 915 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,500 developed for the Hub and it hasn't really funded larger 916 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:32,600 larger projects. It's starting to with Prop, 72, 917 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:33,600 and funding. Some of these interchange 918 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,300 security projects. And that's the sort of kind of 919 00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:37,900 success. We want, we want to build on 920 00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:39,300 and, and build structure around, right? 921 00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:43,500 And so the idea with with who, with the council's and the sort 922 00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:46,600 of assembly structure and and the new issuance is to take all 923 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,600 that off to actually start having you know, more 924 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,200 sophisticated on chain governance. 925 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,200 And so, you know, the new updates to the white paper have 926 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,500 a little bit especially with the new Charter that sort of being 927 00:47:56,500 --> 00:47:59,700 drafted, you know, has a sort of more detail on what those 928 00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:01,900 constraints will be and how governments can start to Work in 929 00:48:01,908 --> 00:48:05,900 a, in a more, sophisticated way. Yeah, and maybe just briefly. 930 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:10,200 If I can, sort of, maybe a little bit of a simplistic 931 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:15,800 description that like, I would make of this allocator ideas, 932 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,400 like right then the community pool, we have like funded some 933 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,400 things, right? There's been some funding for 934 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,000 like different chains of different projects or I bought. 935 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,200 This has been like small and and also the decision making process 936 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,400 like doesn't work so well. Write like having this everyone 937 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,600 vote on it is. I mean can work well, but 938 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,200 doesn't scale well. And did you deals in is 939 00:48:36,207 --> 00:48:38,300 problematic? And then, you know, you have a 940 00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:39,500 proposal. You can just vote. 941 00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:42,900 Yes or No. But like it negotiation doesn't 942 00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:47,900 really happen, right? So, like the way I do, I feel 943 00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:51,000 like a simple wave my eyes would describe is okay. 944 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,700 We want to like do this at the largest scale and then also 945 00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:58,700 create processes and, you know, decision-making were. 946 00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:01,600 Yeah, but you have, are you able to make those decisions? 947 00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:05,100 In a better way at a higher scale leveraging, people's 948 00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:08,100 expertise better. I think that's I think that's 949 00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:09,000 basically right. Yeah. 950 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,500 One way I've heard this described as Juno subdues like 951 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:18,400 similar structure to Juneau sub tabs where the sub dials are 952 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,800 tasked with allocating treasury Capital to individual projects. 953 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:30,100 And so we could see a future where there are multiple kind of 954 00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:33,200 councils, these are effectively Dow's. 955 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:36,900 These Dows have some amount of money that they can. 956 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:43,300 Kate on projects that is within this Dows particular expertise, 957 00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:44,900 right? So it could be like there could 958 00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:50,600 be a doubt that's funding core infrastructure, open source 959 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:57,400 software, the Dow that's funding like conferences and maybe those 960 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,100 are Dau. This funding people doing 961 00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:03,500 marketing and producing videos and there could be another Dow 962 00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:06,800 that's funding a specific type of like you know, like funding 963 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,900 Dex's or defy protocols or you know, similarly to see the kind 964 00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:17,300 of ecosystem of dows that we we seen on aetherium but only the, 965 00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:19,500 a lot of them, most of the funding would be coming from 966 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,000 from the treasury from the allocator, does that sketch out 967 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,400 a little bit of the vision for what? 968 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,700 This might look like in the future. 969 00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:32,600 Yeah, I'll say a couple of things like one is on its head 970 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,800 like we want to move more of the bureaucratic, like the process. 971 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,700 And like essentially the bureaucracy of growing, the 972 00:50:39,707 --> 00:50:43,600 cosmos of maintaining the cosmos Hub into the Cosmos on itself. 973 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,600 Like this is this this vision of the cosmos hub, no longer serves 974 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,400 the masters of the ICF and aib but it serves it becomes to the 975 00:50:51,408 --> 00:50:55,500 master so that's like one piece I would like to like a little 976 00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:58,000 bit dig a little bit more until I've decided these ideas that 977 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,400 are in the white papers of like allocator Dows and Covenants and 978 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,500 stuff like that. Because one thing though that we 979 00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:10,900 want, like the Souls to be a doing, and the is like one 980 00:51:10,900 --> 00:51:13,300 aspect of it. Is this idea of going out and 981 00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:17,300 like what essentially running like a strategic initiative, or 982 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:22,200 like a long-term incentive aligned developed like growth 983 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,500 plan for some application, right? 984 00:51:24,500 --> 00:51:27,500 Where you're like, okay, like we're good at like this is a 985 00:51:27,508 --> 00:51:30,800 more complex deal. Like we're going to like this 986 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,300 much governance token is going to be distributed to stagers. 987 00:51:33,300 --> 00:51:36,100 This much, governance token for your application is distributed 988 00:51:36,100 --> 00:51:40,700 to To the treasury. We you are scheduler at able to 989 00:51:40,707 --> 00:51:44,500 chain like like organizing and managing. 990 00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:48,200 Like a much more complex deal is something that the like Covenant 991 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,300 idea sort of floats. It's like the Hub can really do 992 00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:53,400 Partnerships, right? Like one of the biggest 993 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,400 challenges has always been another challenge that Cosmos as 994 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,500 is because we are so decentralized. 995 00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:02,500 Like how do you partner with the cosmos Hub has been like white 996 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:04,400 people will come to us and be like, hey, we want to do a 997 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,800 partnership with Cosmos more like High We Do. 998 00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:09,100 I have a way of doing that. Like, there's no one to talk to. 999 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,300 We're just like, you do a partnership as polygons. 1000 00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:12,800 Are you do partnership an avalanche. 1001 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,600 If we have this mechanism, if we have this Council mechanism, 1002 00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:19,900 there will actually be ideally councils that you go and talk to 1003 00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,300 you and be like, hey, like we actually have a procedure for 1004 00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:24,200 doing this. We've actually structure a 1005 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,800 long-term economically incentivized alignment with the 1006 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,100 cosmos at the atom holder. So that's one piece. 1007 00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:32,500 The other pieces is we do think that a big piece of this stuff 1008 00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:35,900 is going to be just, you know, an allocation that probably 1009 00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:40,800 should be small in the Getting but is just going out to teams 1010 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,200 to go out and try and you know maximize their revenue and 1011 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,700 maximize their ability to you know maximum profit in a long 1012 00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:51,300 way so that there's essentially like a REV share back with the 1013 00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,500 treasury. So you're like go out. 1014 00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:56,200 So like we're going to allocate funds or get people who 1015 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,500 participate in those systems are going to have to essentially 1016 00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:02,700 like Bond as like a surety Bob, their own liquid state assets, 1017 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,000 their own liquid state atoms, you can think of this as a Form 1018 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,600 of like leveraged investing where like or like where the 1019 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,400 cosmos Hub is essentially like an LP and a fund. 1020 00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:16,300 These are all like Trad five terms. 1021 00:53:16,300 --> 00:53:20,000 But like these are this kind of model is a way of actually going 1022 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,600 out and like doing a little bit more looser a little less 1023 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:29,100 centrally planned growth by just picking teams of people and and 1024 00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:33,100 like encouraging them to go out and find the best way of sort of 1025 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,400 of generating value in the ecosystem. 1026 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,000 Not again here. I don't know if there's I guess 1027 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,700 there's been some discussions about this, some concerns about 1028 00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:46,300 this, especially when it comes to, you know, how does this 1029 00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,600 decision making work and is their accountability and control 1030 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,600 and like anything. That's, of course, totally 1031 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,300 understandable. Since is like, it hasn't been 1032 00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:59,600 done before I think we're the most most discussion is actually 1033 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:05,100 been, is in, I think, in a few aspects are like, you know, 1034 00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:09,300 related to this allocated all Laughing or but not exactly it. 1035 00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:12,900 Right? So one is the question of how it 1036 00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:17,400 is being funded and to the question of the magnitude of the 1037 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,300 funding. So the in the in the original 1038 00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,500 paper and I think this has been modified a little bit. 1039 00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:28,800 Now, there was this idea of a pink pudding. 1040 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,100 Well, I guess first of all, right, there's some some 1041 00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:34,600 fundamental economic changes are also being proposed right where 1042 00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:40,800 they amount of atoms. Being issued is going up a lot 1043 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,400 in the short term and with most of this money going into the 1044 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,000 treasury. At least, this was the original 1045 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:52,300 I paper and and then it's going down and basically the staking 1046 00:54:52,300 --> 00:54:58,100 rewards going down dramatically and and then in total I think 1047 00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:00,900 there was something like fifty six million atoms. 1048 00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:05,700 If I remember correctly, that would go into this treasury in 1049 00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:08,700 the next three years. Yes, but again, I think there's 1050 00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:11,600 been maybe you guys can talk a little bit about like, you know, 1051 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,700 what was kind of the idea behind this, the thinking behind it. 1052 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,300 What is the feedback being and what are the modifications that 1053 00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:22,700 have been made so far? So at a high level, the thinking 1054 00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:24,500 behind it was, you know, let's correct. 1055 00:55:24,500 --> 00:55:27,300 The position of the Hub. Having a pathetic size treasury 1056 00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:30,900 in the form of the community pool by, you know, by a large 1057 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:35,100 mint into into the control of the atom holders that would give 1058 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:36,700 it a treasury that is, you know, competitive. 1059 00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:39,900 Largest treasuries in the market so that, you know, put a 1060 00:55:39,908 --> 00:55:42,900 ridiculous number in, and, and initiate a conversation about 1061 00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:44,900 what people think and that's where that's where the white 1062 00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:47,300 paper started and that was very effective for, you know, 1063 00:55:47,300 --> 00:55:48,500 actually starting to have that car. 1064 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:55,300 I will also say that part of the perception was is if you meant a 1065 00:55:55,300 --> 00:55:59,200 very conservative amount like one of the goals of the out of 1066 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,600 my paper is to move to a more credible policy around issues, 1067 00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:06,300 if you meant a small amount, no one will perceive that Mentis. 1068 00:56:06,900 --> 00:56:09,600 Your issuance was credible because they will say, oh, you 1069 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,700 will you were just Mythic a small about and then you will 1070 00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:14,800 come back for more and like where does this end, right. 1071 00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:19,800 And so a big part of the of the intended messaging or which 1072 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,800 many, I think a lot of people appreciated but it's the Optics 1073 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,600 of around, it didn't win. Maybe as precisely as I was 1074 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,500 expecting that like, the idea was like a largemont over three 1075 00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:33,200 years. It's just supposed to last you 1076 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,700 till the end of time, basically. And then That gets you out of 1077 00:56:37,707 --> 00:56:41,300 the basis of much more credible monetary policy. 1078 00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:44,400 The revision is basically realizing we're the 1079 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,400 communication around the intent of this went wrong and basically 1080 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:53,100 saying okay so it turns out that like from my point of view Adams 1081 00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:57,700 that sit in the the custody of Adam holders and are the same 1082 00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:01,000 thing as atoms that are not minted, that could be minted by 1083 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,500 Adam holders, but I think we've gotten from conversations with 1084 00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:08,400 lots of people in various And the forums and various chats 1085 00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:12,300 that like there's a significant subset of the population of out 1086 00:57:12,300 --> 00:57:14,700 of olders who view these things really differently. 1087 00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:17,900 So like atoms that don't exist don't exist and atoms that are 1088 00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:21,000 mentioned that they that are held by at holders do exist in 1089 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,800 some sort of conceptual way and there's a big difference between 1090 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,700 these things. So it's great, like, it doesn't 1091 00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:28,400 matter, like we can just wait, we introduced the trenching 1092 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,000 concept, the tragic cause that implements the kinds of controls 1093 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,600 that we always anticipated being in the charter. 1094 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,700 We never anticipated. He do a deployment Of 50 million 1095 00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:42,200 atoms into the into the economy, anytime soon. 1096 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,600 But, you know, like we learn from the from how people 1097 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,700 interact with the communication, and I think the charter and the 1098 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,600 updates to the white paper. Now, more clearly communicate 1099 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,500 the attend. Well, getting to the same point, 1100 00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:59,100 which is communicating to the market, that atoms are intending 1101 00:57:59,100 --> 00:58:02,000 to move to a more credible lower rate of issuance. 1102 00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:05,600 And that like we have we have sort of upper bounded the 1103 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,500 expected issuance In a way that the market can then set 1104 00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:12,500 expectations room. Yeah I mean I do these in my 1105 00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:14,800 eyes you know, kind of mean Bucky's himself. 1106 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:15,300 Right. Okay. 1107 00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:18,000 The community pool was being kind of like, you know, very 1108 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:23,400 small and and I think that was one of the maybe mistakes in my 1109 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,500 eyes that was made. When I think generally, like the 1110 00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:31,900 Adam economics, in my view when Cosmos was launched was really 1111 00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:37,300 good and has worked very well and I I do feel. 1112 00:58:37,300 --> 00:58:39,200 There was one thing that should have been done differently, 1113 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,600 which is, I think the community food should have been larger. 1114 00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:45,000 And, and I think if there had been a much larger community 1115 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,500 pool, then I think they would probably also have an early 1116 00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:51,100 writer this, some organizations, like, how do we use this now, 1117 00:58:51,100 --> 00:58:53,600 effectively? So I also feel like here, okay? 1118 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,600 They like the obvious thing would just be like, okay, it 1119 00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:00,200 makes sense that more money is deployed and there's like ideas 1120 00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,400 for how to do it and structure to be built. 1121 00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:05,200 So why not just I don't know like you know, I was writing 1122 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,800 Streetside why not - put At the community pool at the moment to 1123 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,500 percent of from patients going there and put that to 20%, Which 1124 00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:17,100 I think would be much easier to for everyone to understand to 1125 00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:20,800 accept this like, okay, it's also easier for like it, let's 1126 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,400 just say, cuz Okay now my taking words going down by 20% but it's 1127 00:59:24,408 --> 00:59:29,200 going there, which kind of makes sense like, so yeah, I'm curious 1128 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,100 like why not this path? And maybe talk a little bit 1129 00:59:33,100 --> 00:59:35,300 about like they did logic behind this. 1130 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,600 Monetary changes that You know, going Beyond just finding their 1131 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:39,900 the allocator. Right? 1132 00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:42,700 Because that's one thing. But that's that's not the only 1133 00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:44,400 thing that's happening here. Yeah. 1134 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,700 I mean, you know what, we're not trying to do is make a few 1135 00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:51,800 little tweaks to the cosmos Hub to just like move forward a 1136 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,600 little bit, right? And, and sure there's lots of 1137 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:54,800 little tweaks. You could do, you could, you can 1138 00:59:54,808 --> 00:59:57,500 tweak the community pool, you could, you know, make some small 1139 00:59:57,500 --> 01:00:00,300 proposals for this or that we wanted to do was come out with 1140 01:00:00,300 --> 01:00:03,500 the material upgrade to the hub's political economy to set 1141 01:00:03,500 --> 01:00:06,200 it up for this new, this new phase of the cosmos project, the 1142 01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:07,500 integration. Face right where the Hub is 1143 01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:09,800 going to be you know, a steward and a leader within this wider 1144 01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,000 interchain it is going to support the growth of that inner 1145 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,200 chain. And and it's going to work 1146 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,400 towards being able to you know, actually make a meaningful 1147 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,000 intervention into the to the global monetary system in the 1148 01:00:19,008 --> 01:00:20,700 long term. I mean that's that's kind of the 1149 01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:22,900 goal of this all is more sustainable monetary and 1150 01:00:22,900 --> 01:00:25,400 financial system, right? And so sure we could we could 1151 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,200 tweak we could tweak some small things but we wanted to have a 1152 01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,100 more material upgrade of the governance structure of the 1153 01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:33,900 sophistication of decision-making and that was the 1154 01:00:33,900 --> 01:00:36,000 idea behind behind putting forward the treasury. 1155 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,500 And so, If you just minted stuff into the community pool and kind 1156 01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:41,800 of didn't do anything else, then you're still sort of leaving it 1157 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:43,200 up to, okay. Well someone has to come along 1158 01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,000 and build organizational structure and figure out all 1159 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,800 these things and so we wanted to kind of put those more together 1160 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,200 and say, look okay maybe minting you know, 50 million atoms in 1161 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,000 toe into one undefined spot over. 1162 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,900 The course of three years is excessive fine. 1163 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,500 You know, that's great. Let's keep talking about about 1164 01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:00,600 what to do. I think there's General 1165 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,900 alignment that there needs to be more sophisticated on on chain 1166 01:01:02,900 --> 01:01:05,200 governance. And that's, that's really what 1167 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,300 the treasury proposal is all All about. 1168 01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:09,100 And then it's more a question of actually How We Kick this thing 1169 01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:10,600 off, right? And so and so, the new proposal 1170 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,300 is that okay, rather than just some consistent issuance into 1171 01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:15,700 the treasury, you know, over three years, it'll be broken up 1172 01:01:15,700 --> 01:01:19,000 into tranches. It's up to Adam holders to vote 1173 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,700 to have those tranches, actually, enter the treasury 1174 01:01:21,700 --> 01:01:25,700 pool, maybe one idea, which would be, which would sort of be 1175 01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:27,100 a, you know, a compromise between all these things that 1176 01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:29,800 would actually maybe help kick things off a little better is to 1177 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,000 have the first tranche go into the community pool, right? 1178 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,400 And that might be able to allow things to get started more 1179 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,600 quickly, right into the first tranche, you know, ends up in 1180 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,000 the Any pool. Now, we have a community pool of 1181 01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,600 say, you know, 45 million atoms, but future tranches, are minted 1182 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,000 into the treasury and the idea is that gives the community 1183 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:45,900 pool. The initial kind of Runway to 1184 01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:48,900 get make sure the treasury is set up in a way that it's 1185 01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:51,200 comfortable minting into the treasury, right? 1186 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,000 Because the whole point of the treasury's that we set up more 1187 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,900 sophisticated sophisticated governance structure to actually 1188 01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:59,800 oversee to oversee funding and and so on. 1189 01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:00,800 Right? So you know, something like 1190 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:01,900 that. I think I think we make a lot of 1191 01:02:01,908 --> 01:02:04,800 sense but just tweaking the community pool tax. 1192 01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,500 I don't think it's efficient. Because it doesn't say enough 1193 01:02:07,500 --> 01:02:10,700 about the actual, you know, larger scale governance changes. 1194 01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:13,400 We need to actually set up more sophisticated, decision-making 1195 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,000 coordination. And, and so, totally, I mean, I, 1196 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,600 I do recognize that I think those governors changes are 1197 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,600 needed, right? I think my, the way I could, I 1198 01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:26,700 would imagine that was more like, okay, you know, the 1199 01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:30,600 community pool is increased and then there's a proposal right to 1200 01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,800 the community pool saying, on. Hey, now I don't know. 1201 01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,900 This 5 million atoms in this community pool. 1202 01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:38,100 Now, let's move. Like I don't know, two and a 1203 01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:42,500 half million atoms to this, you know, governance structure 1204 01:02:42,500 --> 01:02:46,000 control that can, then maybe line with like, exactly what's 1205 01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:50,300 described, which I think we'd also give a sense of like Adam 1206 01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:53,400 holder. Still feel like in control, 1207 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,400 right? Because they will have to vote 1208 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,800 on like the money being moved from the community pool there 1209 01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,100 and it goes through this familiar process that that 1210 01:03:00,100 --> 01:03:01,400 people know. Yes. 1211 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,500 I think I think what I would be proposing is that the structure 1212 01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:06,500 is that the initial tranche goes into the community pool? 1213 01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:08,700 Ooh, and we could do that, you know, as soon as we can get an 1214 01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:12,000 upgrade to have the community pool mint and but the the 1215 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,000 commitment is that future tranches are going to go into 1216 01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,200 the treasury, but it's the it's the out of holders that vote. 1217 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,000 They actually have to pass a vote for those tranches to get 1218 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,100 unlocked, right? So the first tranche goes into 1219 01:03:22,100 --> 01:03:24,700 the community pool, the community pool existing 1220 01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:26,900 governance, you know, has to deploy it to get the treasury 1221 01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:29,800 built and they have to deploy it to get the treasury built in a 1222 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,200 way that they will be comfortable with future tranches 1223 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:33,800 being minted directly into the treasury. 1224 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,900 And then, of course, there will be, you know, and as for the 1225 01:03:35,900 --> 01:03:38,500 charter there, Ways for Adam holders, to get funds to flow 1226 01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:40,700 back from the treasury into the community pool into the 1227 01:03:40,700 --> 01:03:43,200 distribution module, and so on. But that way we sort of, you 1228 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:44,900 know, set things up with the expectations at like. 1229 01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:45,800 Okay. We start out of the community 1230 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,300 pool community pool funds, the creation of of the the Treasury 1231 01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:52,600 System and then future tranches go into the treasury but 1232 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,800 require, you know, an Adam, hold their vote to actually to 1233 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,500 actually create them and that way, you know, beyond the first 1234 01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:00,300 crunch, there's nothing else created. 1235 01:04:00,300 --> 01:04:03,600 But there is, you know, the the sort of commitment that future 1236 01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,300 things can be created by the atom holders in this in the 1237 01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:08,300 somewhat. Predictable kind of segue. 1238 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,400 I think that would be a really nice. 1239 01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:12,400 Kind of balancing of all the interest of would give the out 1240 01:04:12,408 --> 01:04:15,300 of holders control, complete control over the initiation of 1241 01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:18,300 this thing, but would, but would be a credible commitment to 1242 01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:20,800 moving towards a new system. You know, that they actually 1243 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,100 have to take responsibility for funding the development of you 1244 01:04:24,107 --> 01:04:26,700 know, up front and that way we kind of balance all the the 1245 01:04:26,700 --> 01:04:28,800 interest I think quite nicely. Okay. 1246 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,300 But that like the sounds reasonable. 1247 01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:37,500 What this doesn't answer those that this this idea of like, No, 1248 01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:40,400 decreasing the issuance in this way. 1249 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,100 That's proposing the white paper right? 1250 01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:46,600 Where it's basically goes up and then goes down a lot over three 1251 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,400 years and then and then basically goes to put sort of 1252 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,200 like minimal issuance. Okay. 1253 01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:54,800 So this is a separate question, right? 1254 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,200 Is the, the question of issuance just Acres right? 1255 01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,600 And, and, you know, right now, you know, the reason the 1256 01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,200 issuance is the way it is, is with this exponential thing is, 1257 01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,700 is to balance this tension between security and In 1258 01:05:06,700 --> 01:05:08,400 liquidity in the, in the token, right? 1259 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,900 So you need some amount steak. And so to ensure that there's 1260 01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:13,400 some, you know, some high amount staked. 1261 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,000 We have this x exponential issuance model that data just to 1262 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,200 sort of, you know, ensure that that's taking stays around 1263 01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:25,200 around two-thirds, but with liquid staking and you know the 1264 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:29,000 those Dynamics start to change. And what we don't want is just 1265 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,900 exponential issuance forever because that's, you know, is 1266 01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:36,800 unstable for various reasons. Ideally ideally, the Of the 1267 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,100 computation for security is actually coming out of the 1268 01:05:40,100 --> 01:05:41,800 conversation for the security provided by stake. 1269 01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,100 Adam's is coming out of the things that are being 1270 01:05:44,100 --> 01:05:45,700 Securities. Not just coming out of, you 1271 01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:49,100 know, unsustainable it sort of infinite exponential issuance, 1272 01:05:49,100 --> 01:05:51,700 right? And so the idea is that the 1273 01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:56,900 drop-off in issuance is more than compensated for by, you 1274 01:05:56,900 --> 01:05:58,900 know, proceeds from interchange security and the scheduler in 1275 01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:00,600 the allocator, and all these sort of things. 1276 01:06:00,900 --> 01:06:04,100 What is perhaps missing is a way to more directly tie those 1277 01:06:04,100 --> 01:06:05,000 things together. Right? 1278 01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,700 So, you know, maybe in And some Ideal World. 1279 01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:10,100 It's like, well, the issuance drops off in a way that is 1280 01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:13,800 directly compensated by, you know, new flows from interchange 1281 01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,100 security and, and so on. And if it's, you know, if it's 1282 01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:19,200 not well, then there's a risk because it would, you know, if 1283 01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,000 they could make a commitment today to say, okay, lower 1284 01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,900 issuance great, you know, take the money out of our pocket, but 1285 01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:25,300 we don't, you know, interchange Securities, not live. 1286 01:06:25,300 --> 01:06:26,200 Yet, we don't know how, you know. 1287 01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,900 So, so that's the kind of thing we have to, we have to navigate 1288 01:06:28,900 --> 01:06:31,800 that and the, you know, actually building out a system where the 1289 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,100 issuance drop off is, you know, commensurable who the new value 1290 01:06:35,100 --> 01:06:39,300 flows kind of directly in. Glee is is quite complicated and 1291 01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:42,300 you know, so we didn't we didn't propose doing that but there's 1292 01:06:42,300 --> 01:06:47,300 still quite a few levers that Adams takers can can control on 1293 01:06:47,300 --> 01:06:49,900 how this is going to happen on when the issuance drop off, 1294 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:54,200 we'll start on on their ability to actually take funds out of 1295 01:06:54,207 --> 01:06:57,200 the treasury and redirect them back to the distribution module 1296 01:06:57,300 --> 01:07:00,200 to compensate. There's also the matter of if, 1297 01:07:00,900 --> 01:07:03,500 if, if there's not enough issuance and people on steak, 1298 01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:07,600 then once staking drops below the 2/3, It then then the 1299 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:09,100 exponential issue with kicks in again, right? 1300 01:07:09,100 --> 01:07:10,700 So, there's a few different ways. 1301 01:07:10,700 --> 01:07:12,800 There are few different levers to kind of navigate this thing. 1302 01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,600 And I don't think we have, you know, the full picture the exact 1303 01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,900 mechanics here, but there's a number of things that can make 1304 01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:22,100 this work to allow the whole system to move towards a world 1305 01:07:22,100 --> 01:07:24,500 where the compensation for security is actually coming from 1306 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,700 the system being secured rather than just from exponential issue 1307 01:07:27,700 --> 01:07:29,100 at the mat sort of the overall goal. 1308 01:07:29,100 --> 01:07:32,000 We're working towards the think is, you know, sound and 1309 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,100 unnecessary the question, are you know, the details on how we 1310 01:07:34,100 --> 01:07:37,700 get there? There's a collective focus of 1311 01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:42,900 the mind that is required to get to among many different 1312 01:07:42,900 --> 01:07:45,700 stakeholders in the cosmos ecosystem and in the cosmos out 1313 01:07:45,707 --> 01:07:48,900 of itself. If we really want to get to a 1314 01:07:48,900 --> 01:07:53,600 world where we are securing the system by a cash flows, like I 1315 01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,500 think the like the cash flow there. 1316 01:07:56,500 --> 01:07:58,400 The cash flows appear to be out there. 1317 01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:04,300 Like there seems to be enough desire to build stuff on top of 1318 01:08:04,300 --> 01:08:06,000 the cosmos. Hub on top of interchange 1319 01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,700 security that we could plausibly get the cash flows. 1320 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:14,600 Like Mev is plausibly large enough you know as an across the 1321 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,800 block chain space, like there are enough new assets coming in, 1322 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,700 there are enough things that could, that could potentially 1323 01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:22,899 generate the amount of liquidity. 1324 01:08:22,899 --> 01:08:27,300 So if he believed, if we attempt to go for an exponential growth 1325 01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:32,600 of the cosmos ecosystem which you know, a lot of sort of, you 1326 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,700 know, investors in the box and space are I think is a very 1327 01:08:35,700 --> 01:08:38,700 large possibility and like hundreds of millions of dollars 1328 01:08:38,700 --> 01:08:43,100 of capital have been committed to this as a thesis, if we 1329 01:08:43,100 --> 01:08:48,600 believe in that as the cosmos Hub and we sort of focus, the 1330 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,700 minds of Kosmos Hub stakeholders on saying, hey, like this is a 1331 01:08:52,700 --> 01:08:57,800 really important opportunity to make sure that we capture those 1332 01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:02,200 cash flows into the cosmos Hub, we end up, we can end up in a 1333 01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:06,800 really strong position around and Adam as an asset that then 1334 01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,899 like is the driving force for this change in the political 1335 01:09:10,899 --> 01:09:13,500 economy, rather than just another old coin. 1336 01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,200 Yeah, one of the things that struck me here is there's a 1337 01:09:18,207 --> 01:09:19,800 question that no one's asking here. 1338 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,399 And I mean, like, these are, these are great ideas and I 1339 01:09:22,407 --> 01:09:25,300 think there are, it's great that we're debating them and it's 1340 01:09:25,300 --> 01:09:26,399 great. That there's a conversation 1341 01:09:26,399 --> 01:09:30,100 happening in ecosystem. But you know, the questions, no 1342 01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:33,000 one will question. No one is asking is what if Adam 1343 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,300 holders are not up to the task? What if this doesn't work? 1344 01:09:36,700 --> 01:09:41,500 Like what if we decide that? Hey like, we need to relinquish 1345 01:09:41,500 --> 01:09:44,000 control of that. Like the ICF and sort of these 1346 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,700 organizations need to relinquish control the Hub to the Adam 1347 01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:49,300 holders. But the in fact, in fact, the 1348 01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:53,700 atom holders are just not up to that task and fail miserably at 1349 01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,500 doing this thing, right? That we're talking about here. 1350 01:09:57,300 --> 01:09:59,000 Have you guys given any thought to that at all? 1351 01:09:59,700 --> 01:10:02,300 I think a lot about that lately. And I have a very 1352 01:10:02,700 --> 01:10:07,300 straightforward opinion on it, which is we always built Cosmos 1353 01:10:07,300 --> 01:10:10,700 as a way that could succeed in like, the cosmos ideas could 1354 01:10:10,700 --> 01:10:13,200 succeed without Adams succeed, right? 1355 01:10:13,300 --> 01:10:17,400 And that A little bit of that is a big part of the core goal. 1356 01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:21,300 And the vision is like we should take, we should take bigger 1357 01:10:21,300 --> 01:10:25,500 risks with Adam because Cosmos as the bigger idea. 1358 01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:30,300 The inner chain, as the bigger ecosystem is not somehow solely 1359 01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:32,100 dependent on the success of Adam. 1360 01:10:32,100 --> 01:10:35,600 And so, therefore, Adam should should take higher to take a 1361 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,000 whole bunch of risk. Try to become something truly 1362 01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:44,000 amazing, potentially fail knowing that the core I'm that 1363 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:50,500 we've constructed the, you know, F bows, osmosis Juno a gorik, 1364 01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:55,400 and like.you know, and Umbra, and anoma and Beyond are all 1365 01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:00,300 independent Locus has of power and energy, and are all going to 1366 01:11:00,308 --> 01:11:03,900 be running parallel experiments. And so, if the atom experiment, 1367 01:11:03,900 --> 01:11:08,100 does not does not succeed, all of these other experiments might 1368 01:11:08,100 --> 01:11:12,100 plausibly is exempt. I certainly, this is certainly 1369 01:11:12,100 --> 01:11:16,100 Adams, curse, right? Blessing and curse, is that it 1370 01:11:16,100 --> 01:11:19,400 created this thing that it's that that doesn't actually need 1371 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,700 it to potentially succeed. Now, I believe that that that 1372 01:11:22,700 --> 01:11:27,400 Cosmos the inner chain, you know, will be have much more 1373 01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:32,300 probability of success with a strong, a strong chain committed 1374 01:11:32,300 --> 01:11:34,800 to upholding the values of The Wider interchain. 1375 01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,900 The way the way the cosmos up is that that's position to be, you 1376 01:11:37,900 --> 01:11:42,300 know, a sort of long-term ERM chain that stable and and simple 1377 01:11:42,300 --> 01:11:44,400 and follows the kinds of principles that were laying out 1378 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,400 for its development of using interchange security to extend 1379 01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:49,200 functionality and so on. So the idea isn't to go and 1380 01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:53,200 take, you know, some, some crazy, some crazy risk with with 1381 01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,100 the Hub or, or, with the atom, but that's not to say that the 1382 01:11:56,100 --> 01:11:59,200 system can't evolve and that it can't evolve in both ways, 1383 01:11:59,300 --> 01:12:00,200 right? And, and that's what we're 1384 01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,800 proposing, is a bold way for the, for the system to evolve, 1385 01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,000 not, of course, to set it up for failure, but if anything to set 1386 01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,400 it up for, for success, in this new role, in answer to Leading 1387 01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,600 and stewarding the energy, And like, any Endeavor, of course, 1388 01:12:12,500 --> 01:12:14,800 of course, it might not succeed or might not succeed, you know? 1389 01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,000 The way, the way we expect when it comes down to, you know, this 1390 01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,200 problem of our, the atom holders up to it, right? 1391 01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,000 And people talk about it or decentralized governance and all 1392 01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,600 this kind of stuff. This is something we think about 1393 01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,800 a lot. And and you know, from my 1394 01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,400 experience, the thing that matters very significantly is 1395 01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:34,900 building sound organizational structure, right? 1396 01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,700 And you know, people like to throw doubt and say oh well just 1397 01:12:37,700 --> 01:12:39,900 have decentralized governance and you know, Nothing will work 1398 01:12:39,900 --> 01:12:41,900 and you pay a bunch of lip service to decentralization. 1399 01:12:41,900 --> 01:12:44,000 And you know, that's not, that's not a real thing. 1400 01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,700 That's not how we're going to actually, you know, materially 1401 01:12:46,700 --> 01:12:50,300 move move the bar on on decentralized governance. 1402 01:12:50,300 --> 01:12:53,100 And what's interesting about the position, the cosmos Hub is in 1403 01:12:53,100 --> 01:12:54,900 it, you know, kind of uniquely in the world, certainly the 1404 01:12:54,900 --> 01:12:57,500 world of in the world of blockchains is the level of 1405 01:12:57,500 --> 01:13:00,600 decentralization around the core, the core Development 1406 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:02,200 Group. And the requirement that they 1407 01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,200 actually figure out how to how to coordinate and work together 1408 01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,700 to build this thing and build the organizational structure and 1409 01:13:07,700 --> 01:13:10,500 the institutional structures. To do it all. 1410 01:13:10,500 --> 01:13:12,900 And so it's not just like well throw it all up to the Adam 1411 01:13:12,900 --> 01:13:15,500 holders and you know, let them figure it all out without any 1412 01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:17,200 kind of support or institution building. 1413 01:13:17,300 --> 01:13:20,000 The entire exercise here is to actually construct political 1414 01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:23,100 Economic Institutions that can carry this thing forward and and 1415 01:13:23,100 --> 01:13:26,400 and it seems like we're doing it in a sort of deliberate and, you 1416 01:13:26,407 --> 01:13:28,100 know, constructive and thoughtful way. 1417 01:13:28,500 --> 01:13:30,900 Almost unlike anything else. Anything else we're seeing out 1418 01:13:30,900 --> 01:13:32,300 there, right? We're really trying to drill in, 1419 01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:34,900 on the structure of these things on how you set up good 1420 01:13:34,900 --> 01:13:37,500 governance on the language, you need to use to facilitate that, 1421 01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:38,600 you know, what I like about this. 1422 01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:40,700 What we call the Workflow language that he thinks it's a 1423 01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:43,000 cult, it might be but you know, every successful thing is a 1424 01:13:43,008 --> 01:13:45,500 called. So at some point in its in his 1425 01:13:45,500 --> 01:13:47,400 life but the point is to actually be very deliberate and 1426 01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,800 not just not just throw things up to the centralized governance 1427 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,100 but actually to construct, you know, organizational structure 1428 01:13:52,100 --> 01:13:55,100 and and institutions that can support this thing for the long 1429 01:13:55,100 --> 01:13:55,700 term. That's something. 1430 01:13:55,700 --> 01:13:57,900 You know, we focused on quite a bit informal and something 1431 01:13:57,900 --> 01:14:00,300 we're, you know, we're building out and in the wider ecosystem 1432 01:14:00,300 --> 01:14:02,500 to get all these organizations to work together because it's 1433 01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:04,900 not just about some ephemeral cloud of Adam holders. 1434 01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,700 It's also about the individual people that they are that are 1435 01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:11,100 working together New concrete things and the conversations 1436 01:14:11,100 --> 01:14:13,000 they have and, you know, the commitments they make to each 1437 01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,600 other and so actually, you know, deliberately trying to sue for 1438 01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,100 subsurface all that and talk about it, and cut through the 1439 01:14:18,100 --> 01:14:20,900 awkwardness of, you know, making promises and commitments to 1440 01:14:20,900 --> 01:14:22,500 deliver. And following up on all these 1441 01:14:22,500 --> 01:14:26,000 workflows is super important, is how we're focused on making this 1442 01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,900 whole thing, a success in a way that's quite different from from 1443 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,000 basically, every other, every other ecosystem and, and chain 1444 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,900 out there, Let's move on to the interchange scheduler which is 1445 01:14:35,900 --> 01:14:39,900 the other part here. And, you know, just a give a 1446 01:14:39,907 --> 01:14:42,200 high level of The Interchange schedule as I understand it. 1447 01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:47,400 So, the interesting scheduler is a mechanism by which actors in 1448 01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:52,000 ecosystem are going to be able to bid on block space. 1449 01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,200 So validators will be able to auction off their block space to 1450 01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:59,000 Market participants. So it's effectively a block by 1451 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,400 block space, Futures Market or a mechanism that allows us to 1452 01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:04,300 Market to them. Are you Walk space more future 1453 01:15:04,300 --> 01:15:08,400 blog, space Market not a black text based Futures market and so 1454 01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:12,000 this this will effectively allow Market participants to buy up 1455 01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,800 that block space. Probably do some some sort of 1456 01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:20,300 block ordering or like block construction block, building 1457 01:15:20,300 --> 01:15:24,300 work and reap the rewards of that of that Meed work. 1458 01:15:24,500 --> 01:15:27,600 So can you explain here? What's the, what is the 1459 01:15:27,608 --> 01:15:31,700 motivation behind the scheduler? And why does it need to be 1460 01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:34,700 something that the cosmos Most Hub delivers as of 1461 01:15:34,900 --> 01:15:36,500 functionality. And the reason why I asked that 1462 01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:39,700 is, I've talked to some folks who either directly or 1463 01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:41,200 indirectly told me that.