1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,560 It's kind of insane to try and do computation and data storage 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:06,880 on chain. So you do computation and data 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:11,520 storage on off chain. You prove it by posting a proof 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:16,120 which gets validated, verified and executed to make BTCA 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,240 programmable asset and use the Bitcoin Ledger to allow for 6 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:23,120 other assets to be created and used programmatically. 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,440 This sort of concept is new in Ethereum land, but in many ways 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,480 is very, very old in Bitcoin lag. 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,520 We've got a low level language which is Bitcoin script and we 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,000 need to be able to compile sort of more abstract languages down 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,120 there into Bitcoin script. And the way that we do that is 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:47,520 through the medium of ZK proofs. And so actually, Boss is very 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,920 agnostic to the specific higher level language that you're going 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,920 to be using. If you're looking to stake your 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,960 crypto with confidence, look no further than Chorus One. 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,040 More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like Bit 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,640 Go, Pantera Capital and Ledger Trust Chorus One with the 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,960 assets. They support over 50 block 19 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,240 chains and are leaders in governance on networks like 20 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,400 Cosmos, ensuring your stake is responsibly managed. 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,680 Thanks to the advanced MEB research, you can also enjoy the 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,840 highest staking rewards. You can stake directly from your 23 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,280 preferred wallet, set up a white label node, restake your assets 24 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,000 on Eigenia or Symbiotic, or use the SDK for multi chain staking 25 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,040 in your app. Learn more at Chorus .1 and 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,440 start staking today. This episode is proudly brought 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,400 to you by Gnosis, a collective dedicated to advancing a 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,560 decentralized future. Nosys leads innovation with 29 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,200 Circles, Nosys Pay and Metri, reshaping open banking and 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,080 money. With Hashi and Nosys VPN, 31 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,000 they're building a more resilient, privacy focused 32 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,560 Internet. If you're looking for an L1 to 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,280 launch your project, Nosys Chain offers the same development 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,440 environment as Ethereum with lower transaction fees. 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,760 It's supported by over 200,000 ballot errors, making Nosys 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,680 Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,960 applications. Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,320 governance, where every voice matters. 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,000 Join the Gnosis community in the Gnosis Dow forum today. 40 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,640 Deploy on the EVM compatible Gnosis Chain or secure the 41 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:25,000 network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,120 Start your decentralization journey today at gnosis dot IO. 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,640 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 45 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,800 and the global blockchain revolution. 46 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,840 I'm Sebastian Quiccio and today I'm speaking with Yago, who is a 47 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,840 contributor to Bitcoin OS Bitcoin OS is a platform that 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,920 enables ZK proofs on the Bitcoin blockchains, which is really 49 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,600 exciting. And this enables lots of 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,200 different things, including L twos that are more efficient, 51 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,000 more scalable, more secure, and lots of other exciting 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,560 applications. So in today's conversation, 53 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,280 we're going to be diving deep into Bitcoin OS, how it enables 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:09,080 ZK proofs on Bitcoin and what we can expect from this platform 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,480 and the ecosystem that is being built upon it. 56 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,600 Yago, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. 57 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,000 I love Epicenter and it's always fun to to be on the show. 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,120 Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. 59 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,280 So yeah, before we get started, talk a little bit about your 60 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,640 background. You've been working in Bitcoin 61 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:26,920 for a while, you know, you've worked on sovereign and other 62 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:30,080 projects. So yeah, what's what brought you 63 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:36,520 to to Bitcoin OS? Well, so I I was attracted to 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Bitcoin from pretty much the moment I heard about it. 65 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:46,560 To me, it spoke to a new ability to create property rights that 66 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,480 were self sovereign, digital and globally available. 67 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,600 And that meant that the Internet could have its own economy. 68 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,720 That was a massive idea. And so I think even before I'd 69 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,320 finished reading the white paper, I was already writing a a 70 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,600 mass e-mail to everyone I knew telling them this was the 71 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,760 future. And within a few months I'd been 72 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,680 mulling it and, and, and go sort of full time Bitcoin. 73 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:21,800 And so I've been in working since then to try and make it 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:28,480 possible to for as many people to use Bitcoin as possible and 75 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,560 to do so without having to go through intermediaries. 76 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Initially, it's dug with like relatively limited use cases 77 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,600 like remittances. I started one of the first 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,360 remittance companies in the space and over the years that's 79 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,080 evolved. Around 4 1/2 years ago I I 80 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:53,320 joined a team building what became the largest and probably 81 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,080 the first significant D5 project in Bitcoin called Sovereign. 82 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,640 And even as we were doing that, we were also exploring how could 83 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,680 we go further, because even then we were had to rely on things 84 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,800 like merge mining and Federated bridges, which only approximate 85 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,720 actually using Bitcoin trustlessly. 86 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,400 And we wanted to go the hallway. And we had this hunch that it 87 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,800 would be possible to do that with some of the emerging 88 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:28,280 cryptography we're seeing, in particular ZK we, you know, as 89 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:31,200 opposed to a lot of Bitcoin Maxis, especially at the time, 90 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,120 we were very curious about what was going on in the rest of the 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,000 crypto space and we thought there was a lot to learn there. 92 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,280 And so despite being, you know, from the Bitcoin space, I think 93 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,200 I've, I've been working in the, in the, in the modular 94 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,400 blockchain world longer than most. 95 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,920 Yeah, that's cool. I I'm I'm bullish about bringing 96 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,680 it together modular and Bitcoin. It feels like those are two 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:00,360 things that are so diametrically opposed, but I think both bring 98 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,200 strengths to infrastructure that can really help scale defy. 99 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,560 And so I'm I'm really, really looking forward to this 100 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,160 conversation and diving deeper into that. 101 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,400 So I mean this today, today is actually pretty interesting day 102 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,320 to be recording this. I don't know when this goal come 103 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,000 out, but but this is November 6th is the day after the US 104 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,440 election. A lot of polling stations are 105 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,080 still are still counting the votes. 106 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,240 But it is pretty clear now that Donald Trump has won the 107 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,680 election. And Bitcoin is at all time high. 108 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,600 You know, maybe by the time it's record this comes out, you know, 109 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,200 Bitcoin will be at 100K Who knows? 110 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,040 But yeah. What are your thoughts on this 111 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,920 new US administration and what it means for crypto generally? 112 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Well, I I think of the crypto industry and more specifically 113 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:56,880 of block chains themselves as sovereign jurisdictions, right? 114 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,320 They have their own rules set. They're not governed by any 115 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,160 court of law outside of themselves, and they have their 116 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,880 own ability to both defend themselves from third party 117 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,000 attacks and to enforce their own rules. 118 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,640 So they're basically jurisdictions. 119 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,040 So I think of the crypto industry as kind of like 120 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Singapore in the sky. It's its own jurisdiction, 121 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,760 except that instead of being in physical space, it is in what is 122 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,800 quickly emerging to be a more important space, which is the 123 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,760 digital space and therefore is globally available. 124 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:32,000 And now if you start thinking about it through that lens, over 125 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,960 the last 16 years, we've seen the crypto asset industry, you 126 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,360 know, the crypto space, this Singapore and the sky become by 127 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,120 far the fastest growing economy in history ever period, right 128 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,800 from zero to, you know, $2 trillion in 16 years with 129 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,400 exponential growth. And this entire time that 130 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,760 industry has been under significant economic sanctions 131 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,320 from the world superpower of the United States of America. 132 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:10,000 So I think the most significant part of this election with 133 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,880 respect to our industry, right, our technology is that Singapore 134 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,320 up until now has been under sanction. 135 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,320 You know, Sky Singapore has been sanctioned by the United States. 136 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,920 We can expect now for most of those sanctions to be lifted. 137 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:31,600 And this remarkable growth story that we've had is sort of had 138 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,919 the, the, the, the roof lifted off of it. 139 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,000 So I think we haven't seen anything yet. 140 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,640 I think we haven't even begun to see the potential growth that we 141 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,320 could see in this industry. It's integration into the rest 142 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,600 of the global economy and what we would call traditional 143 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,760 finance. And yeah, I'm, I'm extremely 144 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,080 enthusiastic about it. It's basically our country is no 145 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,720 longer sanctioned by the United States. 146 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:59,600 Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. 147 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:06,120 I, I think that I think we're in for a really interesting year, 148 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,760 2025. I think that the uncertainty 149 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:14,000 that loomed over a lot of U.S. companies building in crypto is 150 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,760 going to be lifted. You know, namely by the removal 151 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,080 of Gary Gensler and the annihilation of the anti crypto 152 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,320 army folks who no longer, as it appears, much of a voice in 153 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,000 Congress or the Senate. And you know, we're we're based, 154 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,200 you know, we're based in Europe and France here in the UK. 155 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,920 You know that that regulatory frameworks here, I think, are 156 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,480 very different. But the wind of change that's 157 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,600 coming to to the US crypto front is going to have significant 158 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,840 impacts on markets. I think, like markets will be 159 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,680 the first thing that we see react to this. 160 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:53,640 And it already has right with Bitcoin now at 7475 thousand and 161 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,440 and, and and also, you know, to other jurisdictions who you may 162 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,120 want to follow suit. I'm not super bullish on the 163 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,160 European jurisdiction and it's more regulatory focused approach 164 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:08,680 to crypto. Does it really matter, though? 165 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,400 Europe's kind of like a museum, you know? 166 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,040 We could kind of keep Europe around to remember what humanity 167 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,440 was like. Right. 168 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,440 I mean what I mean by that is I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm 169 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,280 not bullish on what that means for European starch and crypto. 170 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,400 I think like European starch and crypto will, you know, we'll 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,880 have a very hard time to to innovate and that has been the 172 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,000 case that's never. Been really my concern so much I 173 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,800 mean many years ago I moved to the UK from the US because at 174 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,920 the time you know the US sanctions are making difficult 175 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,640 to build businesses in the space. 176 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,720 But over time, especially as we've seen sort of the creation 177 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:54,920 of, you know, Dows and other ways of, you know, generating 178 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,880 revenue and tokenizing projects. The systemic importance of 179 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,320 companies in the traditional sense governed by courts of law 180 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,440 and jurisdictions of sort of the terrestrial terrestrial 181 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,520 jurisdictions has significantly reduced and sort of crypto 182 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,560 native businesses, crypto native projects are not don't have a 183 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:23,760 company at all or are not, you know, associated with one 184 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,160 specific company. And so, yeah, I think there's 185 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,280 actually a huge amount of entrepreneurship not just in 186 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,240 Europe, but all over the world. It is the first truly global 187 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,600 industry in that there is no physical centre. 188 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,920 It's not like San Francisco or London or Shanghai is the centre 189 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,760 of crypto. It's all over the world. 190 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,000 And and that's because we are denizens of, of Singapore in the 191 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,960 sky. So I, I think that that's, that 192 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,480 concern is important for those businesses that are dealing a 193 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,240 lot with Fiat and that's an important part. 194 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,240 But but they're, they're sort of the merchants who are, who are 195 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,480 allowed in trade between the two jurisdictions. 196 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,760 It's not, it's not our native economy beyond that. 197 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,800 I I think that actually, if you look at the crypto industry, it 198 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,480 is the best way to understand what work will look like in the 199 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,440 future. The crypto industry was totally 200 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,680 ready for COVID, right? Because it was already fully 201 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:30,360 remote, it was already fully globalized. 202 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,320 It was already completely unreliant on the supply chains 203 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,960 of the physical world. People will frequently be 204 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,600 working for more than one project. 205 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,880 Sometimes they're able to work Anon they get paid in crypto. 206 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,320 There's very few agreements that get signed because everything is 207 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,800 done through smart contracts. The future isn't evenly 208 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,840 distributed, but it's here and more and more of our industry is 209 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,720 going to start looking at crypto, which means that that 210 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,120 the the crypto industry itself is, is going to become sort of 211 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,000 our economy. Yeah. 212 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,040 I, I, I think that that makes sense from a like a long term 213 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,760 perspective. I think in the short to medium 214 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,920 term jurisdictions still matter. I mean, look like the Usus 215 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,200 dominance, like U.S. dollar dominance over stable coins is 1 216 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,120 indicator that Europe is like really lagging behind. 217 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,440 And I think that like the use of US dominated stable coins is one 218 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,440 of the, one of the reasons why like one of the indicators that, 219 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,480 that, that, that Europe is going to lag behind in it, its 220 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,040 dominance over crypto. And and then the other, the 221 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,520 other is purely just the, the, you know, like Mika for 222 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,160 instance, you know, if we look at Mika, it's it, it makes it 223 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,360 very difficult for, for European startups to set up here and 224 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,400 become compliant just because of the high cost. 225 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,040 And so it's going to favor and already is favoring large 226 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,600 organizations, large institutions like the likes of 227 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,240 finance, etcetera to set up shop here because they have the 228 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,800 ability and the compliance teams and the capital to comply with 229 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,480 compliance. But you know, if you're if 230 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,120 you're a start up and you want to comply with Mika and like 231 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,000 offer your services here in Europe in a compliant way, 232 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,600 that's going to be increasingly difficult. 233 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,240 Now we'll see like what the regulatory firmware looks like 234 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,600 in the US. But for the moment, as far as I 235 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:28,240 know, there is no sandbox right in Europe for start-ups to ease 236 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,600 into compliance. It's like 0 nothing. 237 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,320 Sure. I, I, I, I don't think we're 238 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,720 disagreeing. I, I, I agree that this is not 239 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,360 good for the jurisdiction that is Europe or the EU, but I don't 240 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:44,520 think that you can identify the jurisdiction with the people, 241 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,440 right. There's, there's nothing 242 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,240 stopping Europeans from being involved in this industry and 243 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,160 many, many of them are, they hold the assets they are 244 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,320 involved in, you know, developing the projects. 245 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,280 So I just think you're right that we're not going to see like 246 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,000 overnight the disappearance of the jurisdictions. 247 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,120 We don't need to. There is more and more a viable 248 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,720 alternative economy and viable alternative methods of commerce 249 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,320 which people around the world are able to use. 250 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,160 It's sad. I. 251 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,400 Agree with 100%. It's sad that, you know, 252 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:23,680 Europeans have to deal with all these capital controls, but it 253 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,160 it hurts Europe more than it hurts Europeans. 254 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,840 Yeah, well, it's going to be an interesting next couple of years 255 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,880 for sure. And I'm, I'm really, I mean, the 256 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,040 thing that I'm more excited about is just like vault 257 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,840 building in the markets in the in the next, you know, weeks, 258 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,800 months and years. And, you know, volatility is 259 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,000 typically when, you know, there is the most money to be made. 260 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,360 So, you know, everybody should be, should be exposed right now. 261 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,200 Not investment advice, but being exposed is probably but good 262 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,640 life advice. Good, good life advice, Yes. 263 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,480 So not investment advice, but life. 264 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,720 Cool. So let's let's let's take a step 265 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,760 back and, and talk about Bitcoin in US or or boss, actually, you 266 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,400 know something I think now, now, now that I'm thinking about it, 267 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,960 I think we actually met in person in in Denver last last 268 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,600 year, very briefly at the Bitcoin Renaissance event. 269 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,000 I came up to your booth and and then said hi. 270 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,040 But but yeah, So what what is what, what is Bitcoin in US and 271 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,400 and what does that enable fundamentally? 272 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,760 So fundamentally what we're looking to do is to make it 273 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:32,600 possible to use Bitcoin as a general purpose Ledger with 274 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,200 unlimited programmability. So make BTCA programmable asset 275 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,240 and use the Bitcoin Ledger to allow for other assets to be 276 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,120 created and used programmatically or you know, in 277 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,440 sort of more colloquial speak, turn Bitcoin into a smart 278 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,520 contract layer, smart contract chain. 279 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:07,240 And the way we do this is we're is basically taking the, the, 280 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,880 the insight that modularity proposes, which is that it's 281 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,560 kind of insane to try and do computation and data storage on 282 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,560 chain. So you do computation and data 283 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:25,520 storage on off chain, you prove it to the, the, the, the chain 284 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,840 or what I prefer to call the Ledger by posting a proof which 285 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,600 gets validated, verified and executed. 286 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,680 And that execution allows you to issue new assets, introduce, you 287 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,920 know, qualifiers, encumbrances or covenants. 288 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,400 You know, basically say how those assets can be used and to 289 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,480 move assets from from, you know, from the ownership of one entity 290 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,880 to another. This sort of concept is new in 291 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,560 Ethereum land, but in many ways is very, very old in Bitcoin 292 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,440 land. Bitcoin has been designed as a 293 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,120 extremely limited system in comparison to most of the sort 294 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:12,560 of out chains that we've seen in that really it specializes in 295 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:18,600 being a Ledger only. Whereas mostly due to the 296 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,960 influence of Ethereum, other chains have sought to sort of 297 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:28,800 add into the chain smart contract, you know, execution, 298 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,440 AVM, data availability, basically everything plus the 299 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,080 kitchen sink. Right, Bitcoin is the original 300 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,440 lazy Ledger. That's right for the modular 301 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,840 world. And, and it's sort of like the 302 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,520 perfect base layer to act as a Ledger. 303 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,240 It's extremely reliable. You know, it's perma Ware. 304 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,080 It's not like software that keeps upgrading. 305 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,640 It's it's like it's code base is small enough that human beings 306 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,920 can understand it, which is very different from, you know, 307 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,880 Etherium sort of being the classic example of something 308 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,720 which not now there's not a single person in the world who 309 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,120 understands it's full code base. And it's relatively lightweight 310 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,200 also as a result. And so it's the most trusted, 311 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:16,120 most secure system. And for years there was this 312 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:19,560 debate between Bitcoiners and Ethereum, which effectively was 313 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,520 like the early innings of the modular debate where Bitcoiners 314 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,520 were saying, look, guys, you're going to be giving up. 315 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,880 You're going to be, you know, you're, you're, you're putting, 316 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,240 you're shoving too much into a chain. 317 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,640 You're going to be giving up on decentralized. 318 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,280 And you're going to find that the system doesn't scale this 319 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:39,520 way. And you know, a few years ago, 320 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,040 it became very, very obvious that Ethereum wasn't scaling, 321 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,400 transaction fees were becoming too high. 322 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,520 And now depending on the date, you know, you'll see more than 323 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:56,120 95% of the transactional activity on Etherium occurring 324 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,720 off chain, primarily on what we today call roll ups. 325 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:04,720 So I think in that respect, Bitcoin was designed in a manner 326 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,360 which foresaw where we would ultimately have to go and has 327 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,160 been. Sort of like the turtle in the 328 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,520 race, slow and steady, moving towards a very, very clear North 329 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,480 Star which everyone is galvanizing around. 330 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,160 You really think this that like Bitcoin was designed in in this 331 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,520 way, like to to figure out where it had to go. 332 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,400 And it's not just like a happy coincidence that, you know, 333 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,240 there are now technologies that enable I mean, you do. 334 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,560 I really think that in 2014, like Bitcoiners were thinking, 335 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,880 yeah, we're going to have like L twos and modular block chains on 336 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,720 top of Bitcoin right now. Yeah. 337 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,160 And I, I mean definitely. So actually it's interesting 338 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,760 that you say 2014, 2014 is when the side chain white paper came 339 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,080 out for Bitcoin. So that was very, very 340 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,160 explicitly how Bitcoiners were thinking about expanding it. 341 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,600 And then later in 20/16/2017, when there was the block size 342 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,320 wars, right, it was the group of people who didn't believe in 343 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,960 that vision who forked themselves off. 344 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,840 They said, look, we need to have much bigger blocks. 345 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,760 We need to introduce, you know, more things and have more 346 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,640 frequent forks so that we can upgrade Bitcoin. 347 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,000 And the majority of the Bitcoin community, and in particular the 348 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,240 Bitcoin developer community, rejected that idea very, very 349 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,120 explicitly with the idea that no, that's not how any system 350 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,240 ever has scaled. Yeah, that's great, great, great 351 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,440 point. I mean, those those, those 352 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:36,240 Bitcoin scaling debates were yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it 353 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,560 was a a really interesting time. And I at the time felt that 354 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,880 Bitcoin needed to increase its block size in order to enable 355 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,080 more transactions. I I didn't see Bitcoin as a way 356 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,800 to do smart contracts though. I felt like Bitcoin needed to 357 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,800 stay as a very simple sort of payment system that other 358 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,160 systems would would fill the role of smart contracts. 359 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,960 And like up until now, that has been, that has proven to be 360 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,400 true, right? Like other systems have filled 361 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,840 that role, Ethereum, Solana and all the other kind of like, you 362 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,920 know, modular chains, app chains that have come. 363 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,320 So I guess I, I guess there's still time to be proven wrong on 364 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,720 that, you know? Yeah. 365 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,720 Well, I think if you've come into Bitcoin in like, let's say 366 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,360 the last five years, you would be. 367 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,240 Forgiven. I came in in 2013. 368 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,720 Yeah. Oh, so there you go. 369 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,840 So I think you'd be forgiven for believing that Bitcoiners didn't 370 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,320 believe in smart contracts because the Bitcoiners who have 371 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,440 sort of come in over the last five years dubbed, and the 372 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,640 reason they don't I think can be attributed to Stockholm 373 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,240 Syndrome, right? So Bitcoin didn't have smart 374 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,040 contracts. They were held hostage in their 375 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,080 own minds by the fact that Bitcoin didn't have smart 376 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,560 contracts. And so they convinced themselves 377 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,040 therefore that if it doesn't exist in Bitcoin, it must be 378 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,480 shit, it must be unimportant. And so instead of saying, well, 379 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,120 OK, we, we're working from first principles on how best to 380 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:05,960 introduce smart contracts to biker. 381 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,120 And they, they just rejected the idea out of hand as sort of 382 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,960 throwing the baby out with the bath water. 383 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,480 If Etherium has it, it must be bad. 384 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,040 And that's how you ended up with the ultra retarded maxi. 385 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,040 True. I like to call it bag bag bias 386 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,800 as yeah, maybe not ultra retarded. 387 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:25,920 Yeah, no. But I mean, there were some like 388 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,000 really early applications on Bitcoin that I thought were 389 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,200 really cool. I mean, like we at Epicenter, 390 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,760 you know, we were using, we were part of the Let's Talk Bitcoin 391 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,960 network and we were using Counterparty to do like tokens 392 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,800 that our listeners would get access to. 393 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,880 And like this was all built on on this kind of, you know, early 394 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,200 version of a Bitcoin L2. It didn't have smart contracts, 395 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,040 but you know, these were kind of early ideas of what then became, 396 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,440 you know, very common in in terms of tokenizing using using 397 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,000 a blockchain to create other tokens than than the underlying 398 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,520 store value. So yeah, these are these ideas 399 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,160 have definitely like gotten taken whole. 400 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,240 Well, I mean 11 interesting thing which people don't know 401 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,560 most people don't know is that this sort of idea that you will 402 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,080 have the Ledger and also applications was there at the 403 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,720 very, very genesis of Bitcoin. In Satoshi's Bitcoin version 404 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,560 0.1.0, there were the beginnings of the first DAP. 405 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,400 It was a poker DAP designed to allow anyone to play poker over 406 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,880 Bitcoin. It was called Poker Lobby and 407 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,160 was later removed because he felt like, yeah, you can't just 408 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,360 shove these things into the chain if you want them to work. 409 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,080 And then in 2011, Bitcoin invented the first ICO with 410 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,160 Master Coin, which was a system designed to allow for smart 411 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,040 contracts on Bitcoin through a meta protocol. 412 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:59,040 So in a way, you know, all, it's sort of like, you know, people 413 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,720 will say that all of Western philosophy is a footnote to, to 414 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,360 Plato in a way, all of the development that we've seen in 415 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,280 crypto is sort of like a footnote to those first, you 416 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,680 know, four or five years of, of a Cambrian innovation and 417 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,000 explosion that occurred in Bitcoin. 418 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,880 And we've just been playing with the same themes ever since. 419 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,160 So let's talk about the the the ZK proof. 420 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:29,360 So Bitcoin OS verified the first ZK proof on Bitcoin in in block 421 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,560 number 853626 that's proudly on your website. 422 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,920 Block of historic importance. A block of historic importance. 423 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,320 How does this work? So you know, for like, let's 424 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,680 let's break this down for people who understand Bitcoin at a 425 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,000 fundamental level. You know, how do we use Bitcoin 426 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,840 to verify ZK proof and what are the different pieces of 427 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:59,520 technology that enable that? So yeah, it's it's very 428 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,880 different from how you would do it on a different chain, right? 429 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,560 So in a different chain, like with theorem, you have sort of a 430 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,920 easy Turing complete system. You basically write a verifier 431 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,800 into that code. With Bitcoin, it's much more 432 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,640 complicated. Obviously you've got limited 433 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,080 data avail, you know, limited data available to you. 434 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,760 You've got 4 megabytes per block. 435 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:28,880 You've got 1000 stack limit. You've got an extremely limited 436 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,840 scripting language. And So what we had to do is we 437 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,160 had to write from scratch AZK verifier using Bitcoin script. 438 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,320 And when you do that, you're, among other things, writing AZK 439 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,760 verifier without even the ability to use multiplication. 440 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:48,760 So the script size becomes huge. And then the next challenge 441 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,440 becomes how do you get that into a Bitcoin transaction? 442 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,000 And so obviously you can't. And so you need to beyond 443 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,680 standard optimization, you also need to, to, to chunk it up. 444 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,240 And so their introduction of Taproot into brickwork, which 445 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:13,160 allows you to create these very complex trees of, of 446 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,520 transactional outcomes, allowed us to effectively split up the 447 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:24,200 script and its potential outcomes as binary outcomes in a 448 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,320 large taproot tree. So we split it up into the 449 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,760 leaves. And then the Bitcoin miners 450 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,480 aren't able to directly verify ZK proofs. 451 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,400 And so you need to construct some kind of mechanism where 452 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,800 external verification can be proven Unchained to the miners. 453 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,640 And so right now the way we're doing that is with like a 454 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,480 challenge response game. We we bifurcate the, we set up a 455 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,000 a series of pre commits and then we bifurcate the. 456 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,080 The the, the, the, the. The script outcomes until we 457 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,600 force someone who's cheating to basically reveal their hand to, 458 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,880 to show that they're contradicting themselves. 459 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,320 So this has, yeah, there were a lot of mini innovations, 460 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,120 optimizations and and sort of breakthroughs along the way to 461 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,800 achieve this. There was a paper that came out 462 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,440 called Merkelize All the Things, which described splitting 463 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,000 scripts up into these Merkel trees and writing them in TAP 464 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,760 script. There was a paper called Bit VM 465 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,560 which described utilizing this to write a code of arbitrary 466 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,240 complexity. There was the work that we 467 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,480 published. In bits, Stark and Grail. 468 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,000 Which described how we can write as a key verifier in this. 469 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,480 And then there was the very significant optimization work 470 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:57,480 that is ongoing to, to make this not just fit, but it'd be so 471 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,040 cheap on bickering that it's competitive with verification on 472 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,840 Ethereum or even cheaper. And we haven't we're not done 473 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,520 yet, right. So there, there, there keeps 474 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,320 them there, there. Now that sort of the, the ball 475 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,640 has gotten rolling. The momentum keeps building and, 476 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:21,400 and, and new methodologies which improve the speed and some of 477 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,240 the security assumptions with which you can do these things 478 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,160 keep on getting published. There's work that the Boss 479 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,160 development team and its community is doing which which 480 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,600 is remarkable. I mean, every every month or so 481 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,960 sort of a new startling idea or sometimes even a significant 482 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,600 breakthrough is made. And so sort of the, the, the 483 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,600 limits of what you can do with Bitcoin have effectively 484 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,920 dissolved away almost entirely. So with Bitcoin OS, with Boss, 485 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,720 our goal is to. Create an. 486 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Operating system for Bitcoin that allows you to take any 487 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:05,480 arbitrary code of any size, prove it to Bitcoin as a ZK 488 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,880 proof and then verify and execute it on chain. 489 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,440 And once you do that, you've effectively got a highly 490 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,120 efficient Turing complete system which can handle any code. 491 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:23,960 And and then, you know, sort of the question that has been one 492 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,440 of the most fundamental questions in the entire crypto 493 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,560 space, which is what can Bitcoin not do, goes away because 494 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,560 Bitcoin can do. Everything OK, I, I want to, I 495 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,680 want to just like dive into this a little bit. 496 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:40,200 So, so the, the issue is that Bitcoin doesn't have the right, 497 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,360 it doesn't have the necessary OP codes to produce AZK proof 498 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,200 because it doesn't have multiplications. 499 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,240 And so that makes it impossible to do Unchained. 500 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,000 It wouldn't produce AZK proof. That's true. 501 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,880 Somebody else needs to produce AZK proof. 502 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,120 I think that's true of all systems. 503 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,520 Sorry to verify AZK proof. Yeah, it it also doesn't 504 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,520 directly verify AZK proof. And So what you need to be able 505 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:15,120 to do is to create a, a scenario where you have other parties who 506 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,320 can verify the ZK proof. And if the proof is incorrect, 507 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,720 they can, they can force a transaction on chain which 508 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,160 invalidates the proof. And so that, that, that's what I 509 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,680 was describing with the, the bifurcation game. 510 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160 And and and I think with in a few months we'll be beyond the 511 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,080 bifurcation game and we'll have basically one shot verification 512 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,480 and so. Let let's maybe also just kind 513 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,880 of take a take a tangent here and talk about Taproot. 514 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,080 And So what what Taproot enables for Bitcoin, you know, that 515 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,280 wasn't possible sort of pre Taproot. 516 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,880 And and how how does Taproot work exactly to enable, you 517 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,840 know, this this entire new ecosystem of Bitcoin health 518 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,560 twos? So Taproot had a lot of 519 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:12,680 implications and it was a a pretty chunky upgrade to Bitcoin 520 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,800 in terms of it, it was, you know, relatively it relatively 521 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:24,960 narrow in what it allowed sort of in it from from a, you know, 522 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,280 just like surface perspective. But what that did is it opened 523 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,680 up avenues which have given us among other things, Ordinals and 524 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,640 runes and BRC 20s and ZK verification and Bitcoin and 525 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:43,720 etcetera. So why did, how did Tepper do 526 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,280 this? First of all, what Tepper did is 527 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,160 it introduced the ability to introduce new cryptography into 528 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,720 Bitcoin, especially around or specifically around the ability 529 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,320 to sign, to generate and sign transactions so that you could 530 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:06,560 generate a tree of conditional transactions, right? 531 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,080 And this had all sorts of sort of obvious implementations like 532 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:16,720 you could create a multi sig where the signers were not known 533 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:24,000 or you could create a conditional transaction schemes 534 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,080 which were hidden until they were actually performed. 535 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,120 And a big part of the motivation there actually was to try and 536 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:38,680 improve Lightning Network by allowing sort of all kinds of 537 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:44,320 conditional payments which would impact liquidity transitions 538 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,840 within Lightning that. But once you get this tree of, 539 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,480 you know, of arbitrary complexity where you have, you 540 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,680 know, different conditional paths that you can, you can walk 541 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,600 down, well, that has massively opened up the type of 542 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,200 computational complexity that you can introduce into bits. 543 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,480 And so what's what happened was that when Taproot launched in 544 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,960 2020-2021, there was a lot of excitement and then literally 545 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,920 nothing happened. Like it wasn't used for anything 546 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,880 significant, right? There were a bunch of 547 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,760 experiments. So it was pretty quiet until the 548 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,920 beginning of 2023 when Casey introduced ordinals. 549 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,920 And that was sort of like first, it was like the simplest use 550 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,719 case, but it was the first use case that really, really took 551 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,800 off. And what we've been the 552 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,880 dividends that we've been seeing since then in Bitcoin have to a 553 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,520 great extent been from the fact that the level of sophistication 554 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,840 and understanding of how to manipulate and utilize Taproot 555 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,760 transactions has just. Exploded, right? 556 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,840 What have we learned from from Orden Will specifically that you 557 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,440 know helps create a path forward for Bitcoin policies? 558 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,560 I don't know that I could dress necessarily draw a strict line 559 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,280 between ordinals and sort of what we're doing, although we do 560 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,240 utilize inscriptions. So we're use it utilizing to to 561 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,960 to inscribe data. I think one of the things that 562 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,160 it did is it sort of introduced this idea of being able to 563 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,920 inscribe very large pieces of data into Bitcoin. 564 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,360 If before the upper turn, which is where you would put usually 565 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,400 put arbitrary data was quite limited and suddenly the space 566 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,240 that you had available to you was massively increased. 567 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,800 As it turns out, we actually to, you know, I, I have optimized 568 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,720 things so that even sort of the, the, the, the limitations that 569 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,360 we had from a data perspective could have been respected even 570 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,120 without taproot. But it, it, it's primary benefit 571 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,560 was getting eyes on the problem and sort of opening up sort of 572 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,920 like, you know, once the first person ran the, I don't know, 8 573 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,040 minute mile or whatever it was, suddenly everyone could there's, 574 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,640 there's something about just demonstrating that something is 575 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,480 possible that makes it possible for others. 576 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,040 There's another part of so we have we have the bits snark, 577 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,800 which allows for ACK proof verification. 578 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,040 And then there there's two other components to Bitcoin OS, which 579 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,080 is grail and Merkelmesh. I I'd love for you to also 580 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,040 explain what what these two pieces of tech do and and how 581 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,400 they enable better L twos for Bitcoin. 582 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,920 Sure. So a boss is an operating 583 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,280 system. And like any operating system, 584 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,400 it's designed to allow you to have different types of 585 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,040 computation which you can coordinate. 586 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,720 So you could have different external computational 587 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:53,640 environments, let's say two different roll ups, which boss 588 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,640 will coordinate between them and and then it will also coordinate 589 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,360 that with the CPU, which in this case is Bitcoin made, right? 590 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,920 And so to make that operating system as useful as possible, 591 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,720 you need to bundle in some core use cases. 592 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:19,280 So 1 core use case is the ability to lock up BTC and other 593 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,160 Bitcoin assets and then allow them to be manipulated in 594 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,320 external environments. So other chains, roll ups, Daps, 595 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,520 what have you. So that is what Grail is 596 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,160 designed to do and it does it first of all for assets and then 597 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,240 secondarily for messaging, arbitrary data and perhaps most 598 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:44,120 importantly for security. So if you're building A roll up 599 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,560 on Bitcoin, it is through Grail that you can sort of write your 600 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:55,080 state to Bitcoin and then use that as the transaction ordering 601 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,960 tool for your roll up so that your roll up has the same or 602 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,920 very nearly the same, depending on your design decisions, 603 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,240 security assumptions as Bitcoin maintenance and and and is 604 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,000 secured by Bitcoin proof of work, right. 605 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,520 So that's that's how you expand Bitcoin both from a scaling 606 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,800 perspective and a features or sort of, you know, 607 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,200 expressiveness perspective with making few or no sacrifices. 608 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,480 And then the next big challenge is you, if you're doing that, 609 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,560 you want to avoid what has happened to Etherium, which is 610 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,760 each of these different execution environments, these 611 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,000 different roll UPS is its own whole new chain with a whole new 612 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,880 world. And you lose the 613 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,080 interoperability, the fungibility, the composability, 614 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,720 you lose access to the users, the developers, and the whole 615 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:49,560 thing kind of becomes a mess. And So what you want to be able 616 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,240 to do is you want to maintain that composability. 617 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,320 And so that's what Merkelmesh is designed to do. 618 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,520 And, you know, these are things that we're still, you know, 619 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,520 they're all in different stages of development. 620 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:09,160 But the idea is with Bitcoin OS, you have a single chain 621 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:14,360 experience, right? So a user is on, on, on, on in 622 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,600 one execution environment. Let's say it's a an environment 623 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,960 which is designed to, you know Shields their transactions and 624 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,200 provide data and information security for them and privacy of 625 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,600 their transactions. Can interact with an EVM which 626 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,520 is focused on D Phi and a a UTXO based system which is focused on 627 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,520 Dow's. And within a single transaction, 628 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,400 interact with both of these things as a shielded transaction 629 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,160 which will get aggregated and ultimately settled on Bitcoin 630 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,360 main. OK, got it. 631 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,000 So we have, we have the ZK proving aspect, we have the 632 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,800 bridging and then we also have the interoperability and 633 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,880 composability as one cohesive system which is Bitcoin OS. 634 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,880 Are there any other features that we're missing here? 635 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,800 Like is there an SDK that people can use to build their 636 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,200 applications using Bitcoin OS? Not yet. 637 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,080 We expect that there will be and there's going to be other 638 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,040 components. Not everything will be developed 639 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,520 sort of by the the boss developer ecosystem. 640 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,920 Some of the things like data availability, which is going to 641 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,760 be really important. You will be able to bring in 642 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,520 other tools like Celestia or Nubit, which is like, kind of 643 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,640 like ADA layer specifically designed for Bitcoin or Babylon 644 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,040 or introducing the idea of staking. 645 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:48,160 And so, you know, as an OS, probably there'll be a set of 646 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,720 core components that get bundled together. 647 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,160 And then you'll probably also just be able to sort of pick and 648 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,800 choose from a large number of other tools, dev tools that 649 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,200 you'd want to to to use to make buses usable and and and then as 650 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,720 valuable to you as possible. OK, so, so effectively what what 651 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,880 boss enables or what it allows it it allows L twos to use 652 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,680 Bitcoin for security. They still will, you know, can 653 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,080 utilize should utilize some data available there, like Celestia 654 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,640 or new bid or avail. Now there. 655 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,200 There is one missing component here, which is sequencing. 656 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:38,960 What's the preferred or kind of recommended way that Boss yeah 657 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,600 recommends for for sequencing so. 658 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:47,800 On the basic level, BOSS is agnostic to the specific 659 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,840 sequencing methodology used. Where sequencing does become 660 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,120 sort of where BOSS becomes more opinionated with regards to 661 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,160 sequencing is when you want to have the highest degree of 662 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:03,880 composability. And there there's sort of this 663 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:09,680 concept of shared sequencers, which we're skeptical of because 664 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,160 getting everyone to use the same set of shared sequencers is that 665 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,080 sounds like the kind of thing that you can do in a centralized 666 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,160 environment, but not in a decentralized environment. 667 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:24,320 And so the way we're looking at this problem is to be able to 668 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,880 provide sort of an inter sequencer data feed so that 669 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,520 sequences who want to be composable with each other will 670 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:37,160 have access to a feed of transactions that are relevant 671 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,520 to them. So let's say you've got and by 672 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,600 the way, I, I tend to not use the term L2 because it has 673 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,320 almost lost all meeting. So I, I, I use the more general 674 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,640 terms sort of external computing environment or external 675 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,160 environment. So you have these external 676 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,840 execution environments and I want to perform an A transaction 677 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:03,600 which is going to call on another external environment, 678 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,920 right? So I want to have a system which 679 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,640 is available where I can basically ping that other 680 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,880 system. So rather than trying to force 681 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,240 all of the sequencers to basically view everything, we're 682 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:22,160 trying to pare down the problem so that you, the sequence, can 683 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,600 message amongst themselves. Here I have a transaction which 684 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,680 is going to involve you and and and you need to ultimately 685 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,440 sequence it. OK, got it. 686 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,840 So another question I want to ask is, you guys are partnered 687 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,720 with a team called Merlin Chain, which is an EVM external 688 00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,400 sequence external execution environment as as you put it. 689 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,920 They they, they would describe themselves and what they are 690 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,560 looking to become is a Bitcoin roll up right. 691 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,040 And so they've generated quite a lot of enthusiasm. 692 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,720 They've got quite a lot of TBL just in the basis of the fact 693 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,360 that they're going to be able to be an EVM roll up to Bitcoin. 694 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,240 And there is actually remarkably quite a lot of competitors with 695 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,480 significant size already who, who are doing this. 696 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,360 So so I mean. Merlin Chain is, is an EVM based 697 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,120 roll up and certainly there are a lot of other EVM based roll 698 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,200 ups that are launching on Ethereum. 699 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,120 There's also a bit VM, which I think has its own programming 700 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,480 language, although I'm not entirely sure maybe we can clear 701 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,960 that up here. But you know, if we take a step 702 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,800 back here, do you think that? So my, my view is that the, the 703 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:37,280 EVM long term is going to lose market share to other more 704 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:43,000 modern VMS that are abstracted, where sort of security and 705 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,880 complexity is abstracted away from the developer that is more 706 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,520 performant, doesn't have some of the legacy bugs that EDM has 707 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:58,160 like like re entrancy, etcetera. And and that is more modern and 708 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,320 tuned for modular block chains. And the analogy I I like to draw 709 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,680 here is how you know, the early development languages of web 710 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,200 like PHP and ESP has have mostly given way to more modern 711 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,960 languages and frameworks like Node JS with the advent of 712 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,760 mobile and and the modularization of the web 2 713 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,640 stack with Bitcoin. You know, now now that Bitcoin 714 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,200 has sort of leapfrogged the entire sort of, you know, defy 715 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,360 period of the last couple years. Isn't there an opportunity here 716 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:39,520 for Bitcoin to adopt very modern VMS as the kind of flagship L 717 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,800 twos on Bitcoin VMS that are was and based like the slot of VM 718 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:50,400 like move and attract new new waves of developers that are 719 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:55,720 coming from say like emerging markets that are looking to 720 00:45:55,720 --> 00:46:01,080 learn the next generation of of blockchain languages that will 721 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,960 be you know, used in the next 1020 years. 722 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,160 Yeah, what? What, where do you sit here on 723 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,280 this, on this issue? Yeah. 724 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,760 So if so, I think the way to think about boss and the boss 725 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,160 stack is we have a low level language that we need to sort of 726 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,400 compile that. This is an analogy, but it's a 727 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,760 pretty close analogy. We've got a low level language, 728 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,320 which is Bitcoin script and we need to be able to compile a 729 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,760 bunch of different languages, sort of more abstract languages 730 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,040 down that into into bit conscript. 731 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:38,520 And the way that we do that is through the medium of ZK proofs, 732 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,880 right? So basically any language, any 733 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,200 language can which can be proven as a ZK proof. 734 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,240 And and now current iteration and probably, you know, for the 735 00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,440 foreseeable future, we're talking about Groth 16 snarks. 736 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,000 If you can turn your code into a Groth 16 snark then BOSS can 737 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:02,160 read it and so actually BOSS is very agnostic to the specific 738 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,400 higher level language that you're going to be using. 739 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,600 Now with regards to EVMI, mostly agree with you and in fact I 740 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,640 would go even further than you. Right. 741 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:17,120 So I think the reason EVM has been so popular is an artefact 742 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,880 of the way that Etherium was constructed. 743 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:26,200 So Etherium hard coded it's VM into the system and then 744 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,800 Solidity became the most popular sort of language group. 745 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,800 But basically everyone is forced to use EVM. 746 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,520 And then the way that other chains have developed is well, 747 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,480 they've just forked that. And so they've they've taken all 748 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,160 of that with them. And that's true for other L ones 749 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,560 and it's also true for roll ups to Etheria. 750 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:57,080 Now we are, I think, rapidly moving into a world where almost 751 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,960 everything that we know and sort of assume around our industry is 752 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,880 wrong. And so the best example of us is 753 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,840 we call ourselves the blockchain industry, right? 754 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,640 But that is just a symptom of us not understanding what we're 755 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,560 actually doing. Nobody wants a blockchain. 756 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,400 A blockchain's a sort of a stumbling block towards getting 757 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,480 what we want. It's this really annoying, slow, 758 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,680 non performant database. What we actually are is we're a 759 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,920 property rights industry, We're a digital crypto asset industry. 760 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,440 And it turns out that you don't need most of what you would have 761 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,840 in a blockchain to generate that in at all. 762 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,400 So 2 examples of companies that are really, I think at the 763 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,960 leading edge of this is RISC 0 and succinct. 764 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,480 And both of them have developed more general purpose ZKVMS, 765 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,400 right? And so these are VMS which allow 766 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:58,000 you to take Rust and then, you know, later TypeScript, WASM, 767 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:04,400 whatever, compile that down to directly to ZK proofs. 768 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,640 And So what that means is that we're actually not going to have 769 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,400 sort of chain specific or blockchain specific languages 770 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,240 we're going to see this year. And it's certainly in the years 771 00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:20,960 following the developers being able to choose whatever their 772 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,280 favorite language is and then compile that down. 773 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,720 And it also means that this idea of you need to have your own L1 774 00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:33,760 or you need to be a chain at all is going to look very 775 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,600 anachronistic to us quite soon because you've got this really 776 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,480 great Ledger, right? It's Bitcoin. 777 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,360 You use that as your Ledger, you've got data availability, 778 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,760 multiple different projects are competing to, to do better, more 779 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,480 efficient, faster, more scalable data availability. 780 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,720 You've got the VM, you, you can create an execution environment 781 00:49:57,720 --> 00:49:59,840 which is highly optimized to your particular use case. 782 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:05,280 And then you have a whole assortment of builders and, and, 783 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,080 and sequencers who are sequencing and providing 784 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,360 interoperability and composability between these 785 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,640 different execution environments. 786 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,160 And so at that point, you've completely unbundled the 787 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,000 blockchain. Why would you even want a 788 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,560 blockchain? It's, it's, it's, it's sort of 789 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,840 getting in the way of everything that you want to do. 790 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,240 It's constraining you. It's, it's heavy, it's 791 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:32,120 expensive. And so I, I think we're actually 792 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,520 at the early innings of an entirely new phase. 793 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,400 The blockchain industry is dead, the crypto asset industry is 794 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:45,000 about to take off. And this whole idea of layer 795 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:52,040 ones is, is is going to disappear the and so our this 796 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,440 prism through which we've been looking at our industry, right, 797 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,120 that it's a blockchain industry is wrong. 798 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,720 And projects are going to have to either choose to adapt to 799 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,120 this new environment, which is I sometimes call the post chain 800 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,800 environment, or I think they're going to wither. 801 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,080 Yeah, I think I was watching a talk from yeah, I, I think it 802 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,120 was Murad, you know, this, this, this meme coin guy, I was 803 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,480 watching his talk from 20 from token 2049 and, and he says 804 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,920 basically like, you know what, what, what, what this industry 805 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,960 does is produce its tokens and, and that the technology really 806 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,960 doesn't matter. And in the same way that like if 807 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,520 you look back at in the last 20 years, intranet and web 808 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,040 development are the industry developing Like what what we 809 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,560 produce is like we produce services and software that that 810 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,320 improves people's lives. We didn't produce like, you 811 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,440 know, database technologies or, you know, we don't look at it as 812 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,920 like, you know, the, the database, like the connected 813 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,360 database industry or, you know, the kind of like cloud industry. 814 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:07,000 We look at it as the software industry or the services 815 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,400 industry or all the different like food tech, Med tech, 816 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,360 fintech industries that were produced there. 817 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,880 And, and, and I think that that's like an aptology for 818 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,120 crypto. And thinking about it from like 819 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,640 the end product, which is, you know, tokens and, and 820 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,600 applications that allow people to utilize those tokens makes a 821 00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,520 lot more sense than looking at it from from the underlying 822 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,880 technology perspective. That's I think a symptom of the 823 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,480 industry being very early, which is something I believe in real 824 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,160 adamantly. Like I think we are much, much 825 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,360 earlier than people think we are or people think generally. 826 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:48,640 I think we are, you know, we're somewhere still in the 90s, 827 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,920 early 2000s era of the Internet where nothing works. 828 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,480 Building applications is a mess. There are like tons of different 829 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,040 ways you can do things. I mean, I was a web developer in 830 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,480 late 2010 and I mean was a web developer just by teens. 831 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,240 And you know, remember it was like building a website 15 years 832 00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:13,120 ago, just 15 years ago, building website was just so incredibly 833 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,360 complicated. You had to write CSS for 834 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,800 different, for different versions of of your the same 835 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,520 browser. You had to build different 836 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,400 applications for depending on the on the type of device you 837 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,520 were on. Nothing was secure. 838 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,680 There was no HTTPS, everything was nothing was private. 839 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,280 Deployments were slow. You had these like very 840 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,120 unsecured kind of languages like PHP and my SQL and and that all 841 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:36,960 changed in the last 15 years long. 842 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960 So, you know, think of think of that in in terms of blockchain. 843 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,960 Years. We haven't even scratched the 844 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,440 surface. We haven't scratched the surface 845 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,720 and this was 20 years after the first website, right? 846 00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,880 Like so we have not scratched the surface. 847 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:50,680 And I really believe that we're much earlier than we 848 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,880 collectively think we are, you know, looking back at Ethereum, 849 00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,240 bringing it back to Ethereum. And you know, if Ethereum I 850 00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:03,360 think has somewhat suffered from it's a roll up centric road map 851 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:08,520 with cannibalization of the L1's business model. 852 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,400 And you know, we we've seen these charts, right, of base 853 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,600 generating millions of dollars in revenue, but yet only paying 854 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,680 several thousands of dollars of fees to Etherium. 855 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,160 How does Bitcoin avoid this? And like is, is Bitcoin 856 00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,920 fundamentally different from the fact that it's proof of work and 857 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,120 that it's just a different animal than than Ethereum? 858 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,160 Or or are there really like lessons to be learned here where 859 00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:37,480 Bitcoin needs to do things differently and it's L2 860 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,120 strategy? Well, first of all, Bitcoin is 861 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,160 fundamentally different in many very significant ways. 862 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:56,320 First of all, Bitcoin, the chain doesn't have an asset in the 863 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,480 same way that Etherium the chain has an acid, right. 864 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,840 So the entire Etherium chain has been built around ETH. 865 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,440 It's the method of consensus. You need to stake it. 866 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,640 It's highly dependent on revenues and and sort of it's 867 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:18,360 extremely over engineered. BTC is a simple commodity and 868 00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,720 and so I think I think Etherium is phenomenal. 869 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:32,000 It's been, you know, an absolute treasure trove of 870 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:37,400 experimentation and innovation. But at the same time, it's been 871 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,080 sort of running around like a headless chicken for exactly the 872 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,320 same reason. It doesn't know that Ethereum is 873 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,400 not built from first principles. It, it, it it's sort of is in a 874 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:52,600 constant race to run after the last narrative right So smart 875 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,080 contracts when you couldn't do smart contracts on on Bitcoin 876 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,800 proof of stake because Bitcoin was proof of work modularity, 877 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,680 because we needed to solve the technical debt that we created 878 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,920 with those first two decisions ultrasound money because we need 879 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,280 to compete with BTC and, and, and so Ethereum is is fantastic, 880 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:11,560 but it's not both from first principles. 881 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:19,000 BTC is a product in and of itself that's why it's called 882 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,600 digital gold. It's extremely simple to 883 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,200 understand and, and that's what makes it so popular and so 884 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:33,720 Bitcoin is not reliant on BTC in the same way that ETH is reliant 885 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,400 what BTC is it's a first class citizen in the Ledger, right. 886 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,000 It is like the first example and the best example of an asset 887 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,600 secured by the world's best Ledger. 888 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:49,200 Another way in which Bitcoin is very different from Etherium is 889 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,360 it has what you could call second mover advantage, right? 890 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:59,760 So despite what people think, it's not really important who's 891 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,680 first, it's important who's lost. 892 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,360 And so one of the advantages that we have when building 893 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,840 bosses, we get to look at Ethereum, we get to look at 894 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,840 other systems and recognize some of the pitfalls. 895 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,920 So we're building in composability and 896 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,080 interoperability as a first class citizen. 897 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:25,880 And then the, the, the third sort of conceptual problem is 898 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:30,360 that Ethereum itself is very dense, right? 899 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,000 It's, it's, it's got so much in it. 900 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:40,240 And the roll ups that have been built for Ethereum partly as a 901 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,400 shortcut, have just basically replicated that chain. 902 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,600 And so they're not built as execution environments. 903 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,640 They're built as sort of alternate L ones, which just 904 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,840 happened to have, you know, an optimistic or a ZK bridge to 905 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,480 Etherium. And so in many ways, actually, 906 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,480 their relationship with Etherium is, is possibly less than what 907 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,080 you ideally would want for Etherium, although it's great 908 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,680 for the for the roll ups themselves. 909 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,520 And I, I think that's going to change both for Etherium and for 910 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:16,480 Bitcoin, But for Bitcoin it, it, it might actually happen sooner, 911 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,920 partly because of the simplicity of Bitcoin where we will start 912 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:25,320 seeing sort of highly optimized non EVM, right? 913 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,240 We, we, we don't have the baggage of the EVM that 914 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,680 everything needs to be built for EVM. 915 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:33,280 And so you're, you're likely to see sort of rust and, and, and 916 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,560 WASM and TypeScript experimentation on Bitcoin, 917 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,240 perhaps even more aggressively than you would see it on 918 00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:40,760 Ethereum. That that I'm not sure about, 919 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,160 Yeah. Yeah, that that I'm very hopeful 920 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,800 for. I'm, I'm very much a proponent 921 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,640 of, you know, building new environments with which 922 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:57,280 developers can, you know, interact and build applications 923 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:02,280 in a much more efficient, scalable and secure way. 924 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,680 And, and I think we get there by sort of investing and believing 925 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:12,080 in like Rust based VMS, Watson based VMS, move based VMS more 926 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,920 so than the VM, which, you know, it's 10 years old in, in a few 927 00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,280 months. And and just wasn't, wasn't 928 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,440 built for, I think the future of of blockchains, even though I 929 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,800 think it will continue to be relevant, you know, in the same 930 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,000 way that PHP continues to be relevant. 931 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,240 You know, it still powers something like 70% of the 932 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,440 websites, but it's not the thing that college kids are going to 933 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,800 be learning and getting excited about, you know, in the next 10 934 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,720 years. Yeah. 935 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,200 Before we wrap up here, I also want to talk about Cardano, 936 00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,520 which is interesting because you guys are working with Cardano to 937 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:52,040 bring Cardano liquidity to, to Bitcoin or maybe I think it's 938 00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,080 the other way around, Bitcoin liquidity to Cortana. 939 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,760 Sorry. So yeah, what's what's happening 940 00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,240 there? So I think the big story is that 941 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,360 from Bitcoin's perspective, everything is an external 942 01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:10,440 execution environment, right? And if you can hook into these 943 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,440 systems and extend Bitcoin into these systems, they become 944 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,240 scaling. Tools, they become basically 945 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:24,200 layer twos to Bitcoin and Cardano is quite unique in that 946 01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:29,960 Cardano yeah, has a lot of sort of philosophical agreements with 947 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,040 Bitcoin, but from a technical perspective as one which is 948 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,400 particularly important, which it is, which is that it's UTXO 949 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,840 based. And so to do address and 950 01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:45,120 transaction mapping as well as transaction finality between 951 01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,680 Bitcoin and Cardano actually turns out to be relatively 952 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,600 easier, right? It can be done with an EVM. 953 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,360 It can be done with any chain, but Cardano have at least in the 954 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,680 early innings, a important advantage. 955 01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:02,280 And so the Cardano community and Cardano developer community in 956 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:09,680 particular saw that we'd verified ZK on Bitcoin and they 957 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,840 reached out to us. And as they dived deeper, there 958 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:18,360 was this growing sense of excitement which culminated in 959 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,080 one of the the weirdest things that have ever happened to me, 960 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,280 which is I went and I gave a talk at, at a Cardano 961 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,080 conference, which that in and of itself was an extremely 962 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,520 unexpected outcome for me. But but then also the reaction, 963 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:36,920 right? I, I, I, I was just, you know, 964 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,640 it was just another one of many panels that I've given at a 965 01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:44,440 conference. But suddenly sort of the, the 966 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:50,040 crystallization it it's sort of Cardano realized a lot of what 967 01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,320 we just discussed over the course of this call, right? 968 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,680 That the the whole crypto space is sort of inverting that you 969 01:01:55,680 --> 01:02:00,640 can utilize Bitcoin as the sort of global canonical Ledger. 970 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,120 That doesn't mean that you're dead in the water instead of 971 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:09,360 fighting that you can actually utilize that you can gain access 972 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,760 to, you know, a multi trillion dollar asset base, hundreds of 973 01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,840 millions of users. You can provide data and compute 974 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,520 that Bitcoin itself is never going to do for itself. 975 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,640 You can do it trustlessly. And so I think Cardano is 976 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,840 turning out to be just one. You know, we, we discussed 977 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,240 Merlin and b ^2 and and there's a whole bunch of other projects 978 01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:31,600 that haven't made public announcements sort of sort of 979 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:36,480 also integrating boss. But Cardano so far are the 980 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,960 biggest sort of project and community that have gone public 981 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,360 with the fact that they are sort of pivoting or starting to see 982 01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:50,640 themselves as an ideal platform to provide asset management and 983 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:56,440 smart contracts to Bitcoin. I, I, I think that this is going 984 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:01,040 to be thematically one of the most important things over the 985 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,120 course of 2025 and beyond, right? 986 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:08,200 The, this idea that we've had in our heads for the last 13 years, 987 01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,440 which is that you've got Bitcoin and then you've got all of the 988 01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,440 competitors to Bitcoin. Like, I don't, you know, I, I 989 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,360 don't agree with a lot of the, the what I call, you know, ultra 990 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,680 retarded maxi stuff. But Michael Saylor has this 991 01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,440 thing where he says there is no second best. 992 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:28,160 And in one very deep respect, he is correct. 993 01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,480 There is no other platform, there is no other Ledger out 994 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:38,000 there that is going to prove to be the credibly neutral globally 995 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,600 spanning Ledger that all of these other chains and projects 996 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,960 can plug into, right? Everyone else is sort of a 997 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,160 threat to themselves. Bitcoin competes with nothing. 998 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,760 And so this idea that you're competing with Bitcoin, I think 999 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,320 has been dead in the water for seven years. 1000 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,840 The the the high watermark of it was 2017 where sort of there was 1001 01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:02,400 the Ethereum flippinning. Since then, if in BTC terms has 1002 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,680 fallen more than 80%, pretty consistent monotonic decline. 1003 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:10,160 The flippinning is never happening. 1004 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,880 Bitcoin is a fact. It remains as much as ever the 1005 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,840 center of gravity of this entire industry. 1006 01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:20,440 And so the game has changed. It's now the technology for the 1007 01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,320 first time through boss is also available where you can 1008 01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,560 integrate with Bitcoin and and and and and provide services to 1009 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:32,120 that asset base. And not only that, but utilize 1010 01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:36,440 Bitcoin as a Ledger for many assets beyond BTC. 1011 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,160 Is Cardono the place where it's going to happen though? 1012 01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:47,280 I mean, like Cardono is is in in the top market cap assets by 1013 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,520 virtue of having been early and it it's very liquid on on sexes, 1014 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:56,520 but the cardinal defy ecosystem and like the cardinal ecosystem 1015 01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,720 generally is not that exciting. I think to a lot of people, you 1016 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,160 know, TVI was like 200, two, 130 million. 1017 01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,600 I just checked, you know, like the excitement around things 1018 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:13,200 like Solana, you know, even Cosmos, I think you know as as a 1019 01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,360 place for a defy innovation powered by Bitcoin liquidity 1020 01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:24,040 feels more credible to me than than Cardano, I mean. 1021 01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:31,360 Well, you know, the Internet is sort of like this one globally 1022 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:37,840 spanning network that we all use and on top of the Internet over 1023 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,960 the last, it's called a 20 to 15 years, a number of companies 1024 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:46,360 have launched which have grown to multi trillion dollar market 1025 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,080 caps, right? So many have, you know, hundreds 1026 01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,400 of billions in dollars in market cap, but there's a several that 1027 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,960 have trillions in market cap. If you roll the tape forward 1028 01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,000 with Bitcoin, Bitcoin if even if it continues at a sort of 50% of 1029 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,800 its current trajectory, is going to be somewhere between 20 and 1030 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,520 $40 trillion in asset value 12 years from now. 1031 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,160 There's going to be several companies or more likely 1032 01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,040 protocols that are going to have trillion dollar valuations 1033 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,080 building for that ecosystem. Now the question is who is it 1034 01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,000 going to be? I think some of the winners are 1035 01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,520 already out there. Cardano might be one of them, 1036 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,560 and Cardano could have a very, very significant trajectory 1037 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:35,800 change if they end up, you know, becoming a leader in providing a 1038 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:40,200 really great UX experience and really secure smart contract 1039 01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,440 experience for Bitcoin. Other projects are taking a 1040 01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,280 different approach and they're sort of more tightly coupling 1041 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,240 themselves to Bitcoin. They're basically becoming roll 1042 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,760 ups and not, you know, they don't have their own consensus 1043 01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:57,120 mechanism at all. I don't know if it's going to 1044 01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,960 be, you know, if Cardano is going to be a project that wins 1045 01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,680 here. And I definitely don't think 1046 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,240 there's only going to be 1 winner, right. 1047 01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:09,080 So you could have Cardano being one of 10 very, very significant 1048 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,160 projects 10 years from now. That's really a question of 1049 01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,600 execution. But what we are definitely 1050 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,720 seeing is more and more projects are starting to recognize that 1051 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:24,680 this is not just a viable path, but the most viable path towards 1052 01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:28,120 positioning yourself for 2025 and also 2035. 1053 01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,160 And so if it was just one or two projects, it was just Cardano 1054 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,840 and just Merlin, you know, I would say, OK, that's just a 1055 01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,520 straight line. But it's enough significant 1056 01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,280 projects and many, many, many smaller sort of innovative 1057 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,560 projects that at this point it's, it's a, it's a trend. 1058 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,720 Cool. So what's what's on the road map 1059 01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:52,200 for Bitcoin OS and how can people stay up to date with a 1060 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:55,240 project? And what is your what is your 1061 01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,360 call to action to our audience? OK. 1062 01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:05,040 Well, you know the the the first versions of the ZK primitive are 1063 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:08,080 already unbecoming and we're now in the process of integrating 1064 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:14,040 different pieces of the OS to launch sort of V1 of the 1065 01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,000 production level OS, which is going to make it easy for 1066 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,399 developers to start using these different primitives. 1067 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,279 And we expect to roll that out over the next that's quarter 1068 01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:28,399 four or five months. So where things will get 1069 01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:31,080 particularly interesting is the beginning of next year. 1070 01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,000 In terms of following us, that's pretty easy. 1071 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:39,040 You can follow me on Twitter, I'm at Idan Yago. 1072 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:44,279 You can follow Bitcoin OS which is at BTC under SCORE OS and 1073 01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:47,720 there's a whole bunch of other projects I'm working in Cardano 1074 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,800 and Merlin that you can follow as well to to track their 1075 01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,720 progress in terms of call to action. 1076 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,800 Like your audience I think is particularly tech savvy. 1077 01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,600 You guys have a lot of developers who listen to you. 1078 01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,680 I think there's just a huge blue ocean opportunity. 1079 01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:12,319 Bitcoin has been sort of this dormant platform in many 1080 01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:17,800 respects with a completely underutilized asset base and all 1081 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,080 of that is changing in now extremely rapid. 1082 01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:25,479 So there's huge opportunity. There's huge opportunity to do 1083 01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,800 new things, but there's also a huge opportunity to just see 1084 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,399 what's worked in other environments, in Etherium, in 1085 01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,600 Solana and bring that over to Bitcoin. 1086 01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:39,479 And then just more broadly, I think thinking about what we're 1087 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,960 building not through the lens of chains, but through the lens of 1088 01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:48,120 ledgers of assets and computation or asset management, 1089 01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:53,080 I think is an extremely helpful frame of mind to understand 1090 01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:56,880 what's going to happen next because we're not a blockchain 1091 01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,840 industry. And if we ever were that, that 1092 01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:03,240 that time is coming to an end. Couldn't agree more. 1093 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,840 That's great note to end on Yago, thank you so much for 1094 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,520 joining us today on Epicenter. We've been great learning about 1095 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,040 Bitcoin OS and diving, diving into Bitcoin for the first time 1096 01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:15,240 in a long time. To be honest, it's been really 1097 01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:17,680 exciting and interesting. Thanks again. 1098 01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:19,080 Thank you.