Welcome to epicenter of the show is talks about the Technologies
projects and people driving decentralization and the
blockchain revolution. I'm suggesting with you today.
I'm speaking with Fidelity. Cocoon.
Sakuma. He's the co-founder of f most
the CEO of a company that is driving that project tharsis.
Has and he used previously, an engineer over a tenement.
I sort of an OG in the cosmos and interchange ecosystem.
This interview was recorded on a new podcast that I'm launching.
It's called the interop. And it's all about understanding
the decentralized economic networks that make up the inner
chain, the cosmos ecosystem, and I hope to get a better
understanding of the topology of the internet of blockchains.
And the technologies that make it possible.
This is a podcast for developers and investors and I hope to have
really in-depth technical conversations with the people
that I interview. Similar to the kinds of
interviews that we do on a center, but also discuss the
long-term prospects for the interchange and Cosmos
ecosystem. So, part of the interview will
be released here on epicenter and the remaining third of the
interview, the last part which talks about the recent hiccups
around, the launch of f, most will be Be released on the
interrupt podcast and so there will be a link in the show notes
of this episode that takes you to the different YouTube
channels and podcast apps where you can listen And subscribe to
the podcast. And I hope you'll subscribe
because it's gonna be a lot of fun.
And we're be diving deep into the cosmos ecosystem at
everything that's going on there.
Right now, before you go to the interview.
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And with that, here's my interview on the interop.
Podcast with fit a CO Canseco mama.
Welcome to the interrupt. This is a podcast about
understanding that the decentralized economic networks,
which make up the inner chain. And my hope is that my listeners
will gain a better understanding of the topology of these
networks that technologies that make it possible and the
opportunities that it provides to investors and developers.
I'm suggesting with you. I'm a podcaster an investor.
I'm here today with Fede kou-kun sakuma who's the co-founder of f
most and the CEO of tharsis. Thanks for joining me today.
His name is Ian. Thanks for having me today.
Really excited to be part of the interop on.
Also this new Venture that you're starting.
This is a new podcast. It's called the interop.
This episode is going to go out on epicenter, which is my other
podcast, but also go out on the interop.
So it's a bit of a cross-promotion here to get
people in the epicenter Universe to also, you know, start
listening to the interop because there's so much happening in The
Interchange ecosystem right now, and I think like there's a lot
of interest for it. And we've seen that, like, with
all of this new content coming out, and what I want to do with
this podcast, is bring more technical discussion.
So the As of conversations that we have on epicenter, you know,
the very deep technical discussions, but that also go
like Kyle kind of high level. And looking at the ecosystem.
You know, I like a 10,000 feet level.
I want to have those conversations about about the
interchanging of the cosmos ecosystem.
But yeah, for listeners who aren't familiar with you and
you've been in that Enderman and Cosmos kind of ecosystem.
For a really long time. You were like an early employee
at tender moment. Tell us a bit about like, you
know, how your background I think also Sunny is the person
Who kind of got you, hired a tender Mentor, introduce you to
the tenement organization back in the day.
Like, give us a bit of a background here.
I like how you came into into this world.
Yeah, as you mentioned, I was one of the hotel.
You like first employees, a tender moment, but more
importantly, I was also like one of the first entrance.
Uh-huh, from tender moment. So I was part of blocked here in
Berkeley. As part of my semester abroad
that I did use your Berkeley and well-being unblocked here in
Berkeley. Sonny had just dropped out
during that semester and he started working at Cosmos
temperament and sunny. So my work that I was doing with
the blockchain Berkeley organization working with the
friend Fortune 500 companies, developing smart, contracts, Etc
on. He introduced me to them.
Tender mean team that was working super hard back.
Then was post Ico. So there were like working super
hard on developing all the functionalities of Cosmos back
in the day. They started working on the
cosmos F CK. They had Peggy and they also had
of course ether mint which is a precursor project of demos and
They saw my work and I applied for an internship and I started
working with them. And then once I graduated I
moved to a full-time position and relocated to Berlin.
Yeah, because you were initially working from the San Francisco
office, I think. And then you, then move to the
Berlin office where you're now based.
What was it? Like, in the early days of
working at tender meant, what was the five there?
Do it was super Raj. There were so many projects
going on. There was Peggy, which was a
former name of gravity reaches wall.
Ether meant to Enderman core Cosmos.
SEK on Gallo, which initially was only part of the cosmos SDK,
but then like it was moved to another code base so that you
can have like separation of concerns and the cosmos have
crude. Going to its own particular code
base with different functionalities Etc.
Like the one. We now see what the gravity
Doug's etcetera. Yeah, so lots of projects teams
working on all these different initiatives interns working on
an everything back in the day. When I joined full time.
I was working on the Voyager and wallet.
I'm not sure if you remember that.
At with Jordan and I'm 50. They were the first ones to
introduce you. I for Kosmos with governance a
implement we implemented. It.
Also The Ledger, The Ledger ui4 to connect directly with the
Ledger Cosmos applications that had just launched on.
Yeah. It was exciting times back in
the days. And when did you start working
on putting an evm on on tender meant?
I think you were part of the first kind of team within the
tournament organization to start working on that project.
So I didn't work exactly oniy. Thurmond back in the days.
I was mostly working on either Borger Peggy.
So gravity bridge and I also Also worked on the cosmos SDK,
but when so like initially ether men, which was his first
iteration of evm on top of the tenement consensus, Enderman
Court, consensus engine. It was developed first.
I wasn't Enderman obligation, which is the base layer that the
cosmos has AK in now. Implements and then it migrated
fully to like a call. How's application?
So our cost me no space chain, and that took a while on was
spearheaded by Jackson Pollock who coincidentally was hired to
p.m. To e Thurman project.
And then once once more resources were required for the
Cosmos Club, he switch teams and start working on that project.
We were also working with Alex best.
Yeah. The best was the core
contributor for a long time. And also started working on
ether mint, and then migrated all entirely to the consonants
SDK and the rest of that. Then their main core.
And basically he's been working on the fullest like the full
stock of Cosmos applications for a while.
So yeah, I I worked. Yeah, but so, back to your
original question. When did I start working?
It was in 2020 when I was a Contracting for chain safe.
So after I left tender mean, I started freelancing and working
for different entities. And one of them was one of them
was a chain safe and I started working on ether man kazoo.
They had received a grant from the ICF to work on it.
Mint. So, I want to get the straight
into F most here. And, you know, I I heard you say
on a community call. I think it was a couple weeks
ago that what you're doing is difficult.
And, you know, I think it's difficult enough to build to
build applications on blockchains.
There's all sorts of things that need to be taken into account
that perhaps are abstracted away in You know, web development or
like more mature, development environments.
There is just the fact that it's decentralized.
You have to take. You have all these stakeholders
into account. There's the fact that, you know,
like, you have to keep the chain secure with like validators or
Miners and you guys are adding an extra complexity on to this,
which is, you know, like marrying these two technologies
that weren't made, like, work made to work together initially.
Ink and I'm coming at this with like not very technical.
I but like it seems to me that these Technologies are are not
well suited to go together. Can you break down?
Like why building and evm on tenement consensus and event in
integrating IDC in to that technology stack is so complex.
So, the main problem that we see in into reading, not only to the
call to Tender minute specifically, but to the rest of
the cosmos ecosystem is the log of support for ethereum tools,
etherium keys. So, for example, one very
particular case that has been super hard for us to like, go
through and we had to take, we had to make like really Tough
decisions in terms of like how can we improve user experience
was the lack of support for a theorem keys from the cosmos
ecosystem? Because Cosmos only supports one
type of key. That is the one-sided shared
across the cosmos Hub, Etc. So like when you create your
address is always in that key format, we see which is a sec P
256 K 1, coincidentally if um, also implements that are key but
has a A different derivations in for the private key to the
address. So the address generated with
the same key is different and that results in just imagining,
you going to coupler wallet on opening your top and then if you
explore that private key and then you import it to say meta,
mosque, you have a completely different key like a different
address. So to say that's one case and
then the other thing just like misc things.
Like for example, the address form.
Only theorem is hex. Audra's is like CRX, blah, blah,
blah, unknown Cosmos. You have like big 32.
So you need to create compatibility for the user to
know or to. Okay.
I'm now using a cosmos. Audra's.
I should expect to use the back, 32 the back, 30, 24 months.
So like the ones to start with Cosmos or F or ever most in our
case or osmose all small cities. So you have like all these four
mounts that are different, that's more like on the ux kind
of thing. And then on top of that, you
have the problem that in the intent a consensus.
It's bft so fast finality. So there's no concept of pending
state. So when you have to wait for the
transaction to finalize, sometimes only theorem you have
like transaction pending on the on ether scan like I call these
functionality that on tender - is not there, because there's
never I don't know if there's never been a use case on needs
to support handling pending stage because it's like, with
the state is is committed to the chain.
Yeah, it's not probabilistic like in like an ethereal.
More proof is proof of work. Blockchains.
Those are the mental illness. Its instruction is verified
internally and then broadcaster to the rest of the network.
And then the the transaction is finalized, but on on the
theorem, do you actually need to have Probabilistic finality.
So like a Nakamoto consensus where that the journey to be
like confirmations for the transactions in order to be
included to the To the heaviest subtree, as well.
I'm not exactly sure how polygon Works under the hood.
But my understanding is that polygon is is an evm chain on
tenement. Right?
What's different about polygons and F most aside from the fact
that maybe there's IBC on that bus.
So the mean difference is, the architecture polygon was created
in a way to entirely support, the theorem ecosystem on to
create checkpoints to the Block Chain, so you can, even though
you have fuss finality on the tender me consensus, you can you
can eventually roll back to the previews, to the previous blogs,
and you've even needed be. So, the approach here is
different, and then, I think they're working on a costume
siiiick, but there are still implementing checkpointing.
Thus taking this taking approaches different.
Aunt. So it's not very modular and I
think they're working on like an SDK as well.
Polly going to seek a so that they can have more chains that
are evm compatible in their ecosystem.
But the, the module, our president, they have is very
different from the ones that we can find what nowadays on Cosmos
because they don't need to run into this issue of like, oh,
compatibility between Cosmos and etherium and they took the
approach of Creating the owner drafting, the entire
architecture, visioning theorem. So they don't have to handle any
of the cosmos cases. Okay.
Yeah, instead and when when a theory mm starts moving, when
the evm, I mean, like basically e, theorem 2 is going to be
fast. Finality, proof of stake.
Are there aspects of like the East to evm or whatever?
That should look like that? Make it easier for f.
Most Implement? Where are you don't have to take
into account. This this technical debt.
Has to do with proof of work. So, most of the components from
proof of work, we actually are not relevant to us.
So, for example, the on the json-rpc than minor namespace or
settings that coinbase audra's for the minor like goal that
stuff. So the validator itself is the
one that is using all these functionality itself, any tool
handle through the cosmos, component of f Mo's, which is,
which are the cosmos is it came out?
Jules whereas only theorem until Honda through like internal get
architecture or like in this case.
Yeah, they eith to architecture. So like one big thing is like,
even though if you're my evolved to eat, he eats 2.0.
We still need to ensure that compatibility with some of the
existing tooling. And so there are two approaches
here, either. You reduce compatibility with
say meta, mosques or other evm explorers clients, Etc, tools or
by, for example, just implementing the VM and use it
on your own say json-rpc. I'm porn some whatever on which
will cause all these clouds to break.
Or you start you need to all the time.
Try to catch up with the latest developments or the latest
versions supported of Main and only theorem.
So there's some double effort. And in terms of like supporting
all the cosmos ecosystem, tooling supporting all the
theorem ecosystem, tooling and trying to catch up with whatever
the latest state of the theorem is, and Implement new
functionalities on top of that. So, our Dream our team, which is
fir. Early small is able to quickly
adopt and catch up with a theorem and Implement all these
new functionality for the evm, for the Moc VM and also
implementing functionality terms of like to conduct an Amex
interoperability Etc. So we're looking to hire more
core engineers and also postdoc Engineers who can help us like
merge and marry these two ecosystem into a single user
experience. That is really A smooth for the
end user. Yeah, so let's let's talk about
this. So there's lots of things here.
I think that need to be unpacked.
So, you know, the the user experience, the ecosystem of
applications, the types of features and you know, you talk
about token, all mix and F. Most had a novel approach to
launching the chain, which was the wreck drop.
It's been covered extensively. And I don't want to go like too
much in the details here, but, you know, just for I think most
of our listeners will Familiar with the fact that there was an
attempt to launch F, most a couple of weeks ago, that
attempt, well, for lack of a better term, it failed, and
we'll get into what happened later in the interview.
But what is the current state of affairs?
And how, you know, how does this effect effectively, either the
The enthusiasm around the network launching and have you
seen any evidence that what was like like a highly?
I think hyped project with a lot of enthusiasm.
Have you seen any evidence that that is going away?
Or is the community, you know, is the community like confident
and and sort of supporting you in your efforts to relaunch the
chain. The upgrading, as you mentioned,
didn't go as smooth as we wanted to the were like different bugs,
especially because of the falak of support from different like
Cosmos tools and they were also like some edge cases that we had
to handle in terms of IBC because now besides having, like
all the functionality on Cosmos, the functionality on the VM.
We also need to handle all these edge cases for For IVC, and
yeah, definitely. And I think the hype has lowered
a little bit. I am confident that once we
launch again and we stir the chain the hypo continue.
And but mostly because users will be able to claim their
tokens through the dashboard. Super easy on will be Be able to
like stick their tokens natively and there are also a lot of
projects already trying to build on deploy your novels and also
like a few of them are creating Earth, creating a few our jobs.
So that the community can also like benefit early on and I
think the early year, the users start to stake on unused or
tokens for lping, it's Etc, the quicker, the Hype will return I
think I guess also been really humbling for us for the team.
So then we're not here for the hype but we are also like trying
to build as much as possible and try to I don't know.
I improve our processes improve the functionality that we want
to bring on ensure that we implement the changes on.
This is one key difference. With other evm ecosystems.
I believe is that we are not only talking.
Chuckling this from like core protocol info perspective, like
the infrastructure that supports this more context, but we're
also trying to push for products that and support the protocol.
So like the dashboard, we've been closely working with Kepler
in order to support a theorem signing.
We are adding, for example, metal mask support for Cosmos
transactions. So the users can use There are
many must wallet with calls Missoni theorem.
So, like trying to create this user experience natively on, we
need to ensure that this is not only supported on the protocol
side, but it's also supported on the product side.
And I think The the protocol itself was ready.
I think what was missing was more Q&A in terms of like the
tooling and the product itself. And how are you doing after all
this? How are you holding up through
this this ordeal? Yeah, what's hard during the
first week? I think.
But our team is also very supportive on the community is
very supportive. I think a lot of people were
like super hyped on. Those are the price of the token
and whatnot on. But for the ones that Noah's and
we've we've been working on building for so long and we were
the only team that was able to finally launch this, after more
than more than six years already.
D. So yeah, we went back and
building to build on and be able to support this new
functionalities that we wanted to and and and go back to the
drawing board and test every functionality that we wanted.
So I'm yeah, I've been able to hold up with the support of
friends family and also, the community that is supporting us,
but I think once we restart the chain is going to be like the
best user experience. See.
Yeah, I'm really well. We'll talk about like the launch
plan and everything towards the end here.
But yeah, let's let's dive into some of the, some of the things
that have most brings in terms of innovation to the evm like
currently or like one the chain launches, but then also into the
future and the roadmap for the chain.
Yeah. Can you can you break all that
down for us? Yeah, so we now have a bunch of
projects that are looking to deploy to have Moses and the
first week or two after restarting, including David on
other Bluetooth projects and we have a lot of new projects that
are deploying into the atmosphere ecosystem because
they saw the potential of like the new token to a note of
talking token model that we created.
So there are multiple branches in terms of like the future
roadmap that we want to implement that one of Is of
course, called protocol. Like, what is the teen going to
support in the future? Besides, just a VM and the
default interoperability that Cosmos allows you and then the
other the other side is like, what are we doing in terms of
products, in order to support these.
All these use cases. And in terms of their protocol,
we've been also like working closer with Celestia for seven
months and this is something that we're really looking
forward to implement and eventually Deploy one celeste's
ready, which is a settlement layer for Celestia Roll-Ups.
So it's basically a roll up on, like, supporting evm Roll-Ups
and top of ammos evm. And that's one thing.
The other thing is working on interoperability and
interoperability, not only in the sense of transferring
assets. We are already through putting
Arc 20 tokens to be transferred. In and out from the ovens chain,
but we're also looking forward to enable interchain
composability. So that chains like some of the
error or region Network who have specific use cases targeting
defy can directly call Smart contracts, deploy, nav nose, and
make sense of that data by unpacking the events.
And then realizing. Okay, like here's here's the
event data. That was logged.
On the oven with smart contract. What am I going to do with?
And then like they handle like specific use cases, like for
example in some earlier, they can rebalance 0p positions or
work directly with Ava. So these brings a lot of
benefits in terms of reduced latency.
If you're using gravity breach or any other Bridge existing any
existing Bridge currently deployed in the ecosystem
because IVC will drastically. Decrease the latency and then
They the transaction fees will be way lower.
So I expect a lot of interest in this functionality from other
teams. Now, in order to support
communication directly with smart contracts, and that's one
thing, the other in particular is NFD and if the
interpretability we're also working closely with the
Stargates team in order to transfer and FTS from the, from
the CVM into the cosmic classroom environment that they
use on. So like making in trouble will n
FTS. It's going to be something huge
for the rest of the ecosystem and for game Phi.
In particular so that we can support application specific,
block chains or us application-specific EVMS that
are directly sharing security with Atmos, for example, and
able to directly use this functionality to transfer nft
assets. And yeah, like that's that's
more or less what we're doing. And in the future.
We're also going to be supporting cross chain and ft
like delegate hauls from one chain to another and then Yeah,
once you once we Implement that will be able to share
composability between evm chains.
So that a chain that is sewn a smart contract that is employer
never most can communicate directly with an smart contracts
that is employed. For example on Kronos or other
evm chain, that will be deployed in the future.
So, I really want to dive into this in this interoperability
aspect because I think there's different components of it that
maybe at least, I don't fully understand.
So if you're used to using, if you're used to using sort of
that could be entertained or IBC assets, you can move assets from
one chain to the other. So if you have assets on you
have a like Adams, you could move those atoms over to, to
osmosis for Students and then those atoms live there and then
you can move them back to another.
So from the user perspective. It's seamless and I think people
kind of understand that once they've used that.
What's that going to look like forever most?
So I prefer the way I'm thinking about is like, okay, so you'll
be able to move assets. Outside of f most, but these are
not IBC assets or like Arc 20 tokens or kind of evm tokens.
And then what's the interaction with other evm.
So what, you know, etherium or polygon, or what, how does that,
how does have most create interoperability also with those
chains? So the evolution durability
components are ya. There?
Are there multiple on the main one?
Of course, it's IVC in the in the cosmos ecosystem.
So obviously allows us, as you mentioned to transfer native
assets from the cosmos offer much Moses, directly into the
nose. But unfortunately, the native
functionality for of IVC doesn't allow conversions of those too.
Runs directly to the Moc VM. So you need to create sort of
like a mapping between like your see 20 tokens on Cosmos IVC
tokens. So for example, like a cosmos
Hub atom or an osmosis token, that is been the husband took
transfer over vivc. How do you represent?
Now those tokens within the VM on how then those tokens are
bridge over, which is a second component.
I want to talk about, Are those tokens now, reach over through
their ears, E20 representation to other chains and that's going
to be through Nomad and connects and other bridges that we are
deploying on Atmos. So we're going to see an influx
of all these years. It's 20 tokens, from all these
different chains, polygon, Avalanche, and if you remove
course, Moon River and Moon Beam to the Elmo's on Cosmos
ecosystem and then those tokens still see your C. 20 tokens will
be able to be converted to the cosmos IVC representation, so
that they can be transferred over to Cosmos Alborz Moses.
So it's going to create a lot of liquidity.
So we expect of them has to become the main point of entry
from all the evm ecosystem, for all these assets to come through
these ridges. To have a nose.
And then through this functionality, that we are
allowing these years to 20 tokens to be converted.
Those tokens will now be able to be transferred via IV C to their
rest of the cosmos ecosystem. Okay.
So let's just take an example here.
Let's say I have USD see, on, on on ethereum or even polygon any
EDM chain that supports USD see, I'll have to move those through
a bridge, which will be either. So the right now, you've talked
about Nomad and connects. So, those are two separate
bridges. That will be evm, have most
compatible move those assets into F.
Most and then from there, you can take those USD, see assets.
There is a, some sort of conversion that happens that you
allows you to move them into the native interchain assets that
were all used to moving around. It's like changing the address
form on more or less. Your, you're changing the format
for how the token is represented on chain either.
Like any or C. 20 token for might always have caused most
open format. Okay, and will those be fungible
like say you move from from connects or remove them from?
No bad? Are those going to be fungible?
Once they're in that enough MOS? Yeah, so there is no direct
mopping. So governance are proved to
compare so that the patrol a is just a mapping between the
Cosmos on the years in 2007. So the there's only one
canonical representation for say w eith on a theorem for you SEC,
so that there's like only one token so that this ensures
should fungibility. And then this token will be able
to be transferred via ABC to other chances.
Okay, and it's fungibility also insured.
So they're insured via these two Bridges, but is it insert like
is it is a polygon u.s. DC or a polygon wrapped
e-equivalent, or, and fungible to a etherium wrap teeth.
Once it arrives in Atmos or those still kind of separate
tokens. So then they fungibility needs
to be fungibility between like the all these Bridges is
something that we're currently working with multiple teams
frocks is already working. It's also deploying on ever
most. And so, yeah, like, as you
mentioned, there are going to be like multiple Bridges.
It's the same. As, with the same, as the
problem with IVC and fungibility, when you relay the
same token, be a moat, be a different sort of like, IVC
route. The tokens are not fungible
because there are different security guarantees in.
All these different chains of the token has passed through, so
that someone needs to basically assume the risk and having
wouldn't say like a canonical Bridge because it's all
maintained by the team, but there's like a prefer way of
routing. All these different chains, has
different options on security levels also helps.
In terms of fungibility. I would expect different also
like D5. Protocols State like curve or I
think it's Kinesis the name of the project that is also going
to do like stable shot State. A stable cornet.
Mmm. So yeah to handle all of these
fungibility issue. Yeah, I was talking to the
Kinesis guys the other day and it seems like they want to
address this fungibility issue which exists it's independent of
utmost. Right?
If this exists already in the theorem ecosystem and there was
some debate, you know around I think it was a couple months ago
where I like about which Bridges should be should be allowed on
osmosis and Sonny waiting with like his opinion, which was we
need to limit or like, at least for now.
We can't create an experience where there's all these
representations of the same assets, which creates like a
user experience that's degraded for for end users.
Like we've seen on a theory of Right, Where You have like 20
different representations of USD assets.
For example, like, on the same on the same liquidy pool.
Like in the same like on you to stop for instance.
So why are there two Bridges why?
No Madden connection? Why not like a canonical Bridge?
So no man, I'm connector able to provide it's sort of like the
same breach under like underlying Bridge.
It's connected using like no matter infrastructure, but there
are different options for in terms of speed of the transfer
in terms of like because it's an optimistic bridge and you're
different like pros and cons of using like an optimistic bridge
in terms of latency or like how like If the transaction is
optimistic, and then you have these period and that you can
that you can challenge basically transfer.
So they're they're more or less two sides of the same coin.
In terms of like using the same infrastructure by offering
different like options to a user.
Okay, and we'll what about the interchain accounts and the
ability for? Like it an address on like on
Cosmos or on osmosis to control addresses and smart contracts on
F. Most what, what is that going to
be possible? And what kinds of things is that
allow? Yeah, so intergenic on says it's
a functionality that we're really interesting to work on.
We wanted to implement it for for maintenance.
But unfortunately, they're the IVC release Watson ready.
So one of the cool things that we want is aboard.
A for example, you have all these funds, all these
evaluators thought have tons of items tones of osmosis and other
chain another tokens, but how You how do you manage to can
safely in an organization right now?
And on Cosmos, you need to create a multisig like a two out
of three and there's no UI foreign.
If you've used them costumes multisig, you know, the pains
that I'm that I'm the man that I'm explaining to you right now
because it's really hard. We even we've been core core
contributors and core Engineers have the Costumes because it's
in for a while now. And even us we have an eternal
God of how to make our buns for with the cosmos.
Multisig, which only is supported on the terminal CLI.
Yeah, this is this is a this is a huge pain point.
I think in Cosmo has a huge fan for.
Yeah, and one of the big things that we want to support as for
accounts on the costumes have on as Moses to be able to manage
and Acetone on, for example, in diagnosis multisig.
So you can have the same assets and you can just use hypnosis
multisig for everything and manage your Kosmos, coins.
Your your, osmosis your Embassy or she 20s.
And yeah, like I've most tokens to swallow, so it's going to be
like improving. The user experience is something
that we really care about and using all these
interoperability. These two also benefit the rest
of the cosmos ecosystem. I think it's going to be like a
key component here. Yeah, that mean that being able
to use a product like noses multisig on on Cosmos, would be
just like, amazing. I think, you know, they've
really nailed the multisig ux and, and feature set.
And I mean, I'm also kind of surprised that no one's built
this already on on Cosmos. Maybe it'll come.
I mean, like, you get guys working on Dow Dow and there's
like some Multisig there, but it's kind of clunky still in the
you x's and grade and you can't add addresses and the potential
is there. But it's it's not it's not a
production product. Yeah, I think you can in the
contracts but like the contract support those calls, but you
still have to do that, command line thing to get that to work.
Yeah. So what will be the D Phi
component? Like what kind of defy
applications will be? Also have most you mentioned Ave
earlier, but are their native projects that are anticipated to
launch their. And I think the broadly what
would be the defy experience on Atmos?
And how will it be different from what we're used to in
aetherium and and maybe how is it different from osmosis?
What does it bring to the table? For the team is more or less the
same, but now it enables them to.
So for all of these chains to oxes the token directly via IV c
1 for the token to be transferred over the IBC, which
also provides more liquidity to the project.
These are only you have the token model that allows users
and users for these all these protocols to spend 50% of the
transaction fee. And those 50 percent transaction
fee goes to the monitors and 50% of the transaction fee goes to
the develop the developer team. So the contract owners and so
like that is evil to fund additional sources like a
provide additional funding for the team.
That's more like a like why is it better?
It tabled? It has lower transaction fees.
He has additional liquidity. Ali services, so from all these
evm chains and also from the cosmos ecosystem and with the
new interchange composability component.
As I mentioned before, other chains will be directly.
Able to interact with this Mark on Jack's vivc.
And also, this Mark on trucks, on every Mo's will be able to
call at the other smart, contracts that are supported on
the evm on the FM receiver. On other chains.
For example, so you don't need you.
No need to fragment composability at all.
Okay, got it. The the one thing I remember
hearing about but I forgot is that transaction fees can go in
in a defy application on F. Most transaction fees can go to
the liquidity provider, but they can also go to our sorry, no
transaction fees, but the swap fees can also go to the
validator. Yeah, so the the key thing here
is normally only theorem on this is this is also a key difference
with the rest of the VM ecosystem is oniy.
Theorem on other evm ecosystems. If you are paying the
transaction fee, that transaction fee is going
directly to the blog proposer, either the minor or the
validator. Here.
Instead. The main difference is that 50%
goes to the developer? And then 50% goes to the blog
propulsion to the developer, right to the developer of the of
the small of the contract of the contract.
Yeah. Yes.
What these to create effectively is decentralized Market, planes
and decentralized App Store were the users that are interacting
with a with the product with a defy application are paying 50%.
Transaction fee to the developer and 50% of the transaction fee
to the block propulsor. And it's not that they are
paying an extra 50% is just that the fee that they're already
paying same as the theorem or other evm.
Chains is now being split between the two like the two
organizations or the other, the developer on the Block
propulsion, what this ensures like alignment.
With the their protocol itself, so that divider still get the
rewards that they are generated during the validation of the
protocol and proof of stake. Plus they give 50% of the
transaction fees. But now you're also
incentivizing all these developers to calm deploy their
obligations. You have mass and this great
larger. It's like chicken and egg
problem. Like, how do you incent?
How do you bring in more users? If there are no applications and
through this? You're also incentivizing new
developers to come in and deploy through these what we called.
App Store model. So this is a really Natan novel
think functionality in blockchain is generally.
I don't think that there's any other chain that does this,
where the smart contract developer is also remunerated
for transaction fees. Do you think this is something
that other chains will adopt like, is this something that you
could see kind of spreading in the evm ecosystem as well?
Yeah, I think there are a lot of, I mean, so if you think
about the way of funding a team right now.
The teams either raise funding for the company, like
traditional sources of funding, go to VC.
Go to like early Angel Investors and they provide like, yeah,
they delude themselves in order to attract new investors.
And then you also have like the token model where they launched
a new token and they distribute that and the team holds a large
percentage of the Logan. But if you think about it,
hasn't been like a sustainable long-term sustainable funding
mechanism, that is directly correlated with the usage of the
application. So the more users interact with
the application here on Eva knows, the more transaction
fees, the developer will get. So it's a long sustainable.
I need Anything parallel to these two other funding models
that I mentioned before. But it's a more like it's a
healthier one in the long term because it's a, it allows you to
generate continuous Revenue to the developer team.
Yeah, I'd like totally changes the economics.
I think for the developer team and when a developer launches a
contract are these are these parameters that you can set say,
Okay. I want to take like 50% or I can
take less or like, if I don't want to have any other
transaction like, you know, different different.
Different contracts might have different ideas about how these
fees should be, repetition between the minors.
Or the validators and the, and the contracts or the teams it is
this like by default or is it something that you can set up?
Yeah, so it's set by default or like this is something that we
need to, we need to still analyze with with the core team.
But for now the current specification that we have it
set in by default, but what you can do as a developer is, if you
don't want to actually earn these rewards, you can set the
address that you want to instead of you, the developer team,
receiving 50 percent of the transaction fees.
You could redirect those tokens to the community pool if you
want. Or to the voters itself.
So you can get the validator audra's and then reward divider.
Or if you want to I'll get those tokens to like the entire pool
evaluators. You can also distribute them to
entire pool violators. So during different options here
and you can even you can even like Set another contract
developer address, or find another contract through this
mechanism. Yeah, or you could find some
charity or something Stockman, and that's totally up to the
developer, and they can change the address whenever they want.
Does does that D? I mean, do you think that?
So let's say we have developer because then you you it seems
like you get in this situation where developers are competing
also for their transactions to get processed.
So like if a developer is awarding more of the transaction
fees to the validator. So we're getting less
transaction sheets for themselves.
Then there may be Be an incentive for those transactions
to go through first. Is that, because, that's
something that is, is taken into account here?
Or is that not really come into play?
So at the moment the transit the tender moment mempool only
supports first in first out queue.
So you send a transaction with say 100 tokens in fees and then
you send a transaction with 1000 tokens in fees.
The one that was processed before is actually executed
before unless you run some like Fork of tender moment where you
modify the mental internals completely.
It's not currently supported but I think the next major tender
man version is supporting like Fortescue and we'll definitely
need to take that into account by the current.
The current model doesn't supported.
Straight ahead. And but yeah, this is something
well depending when these functionalities released will
need to take into account. So if we if we deploy this
functionality first, we don't need to account for these
particular case, but once we want to upgrade to the latest
tender moment, version will have to, we'll have to consider this
for sure. Okay.
Yeah. And what other kinds of
innovative things is at most that are integrated and have
most that don't exist in other evm chains or what other
Innovative things that are, are you implementing in the token
model? So, the other Innovative thing
that we took from existing defy applications is the concept of
usage rewards. So if you read the wreck drop
token model, you can see that we are drop tokens to users on a
theorem based on the gas that they've spent, which is called
the gospel of model and the more you spend on gas on different
contracts, and more tokens again.
Her jaw. And so we wanted to implement
this on the protocol level for users, that interact natively
with different contract. So what we're doing is taking
the up incentive model that is Moses has.
So like incentivizing the liquidity pools.
We're implementing this, but for smart contract, so the more gas
you spent on Smart contracts, the more usage rewards you
again, so you're in sin. Devising certain contracts.
So for example, bridging could be incentivized or a ma'am swaps
could be in C. Or like I don't know like an NF
T. Marketplace could be
incentivized and this is all Buddha through governance.
So the community boats for which are going to be the contracts
that are going to be incentivized.
Yeah, you define a number of weeks that you want these
incentives to run on then you? Yeah, you're basically
Incentivizing on all the users that in truck with this
contract. So it's going to be like a
growth hoc mechanism. Because now if you have these
contact disincentivize and also the developers are getting
transaction fees, the users are getting tokens just for using
the application but there are paying with a transaction fees,
right? And then half of those
transaction field will go directly to the developer team
which Will attract more developers, more contracts, and
incentivize and more users interact with their protocol
itself. So it's creating a positive
reinforcement cycle in which you are attracting more developers
and more users over time. So, you know, are you confident
that have most will also act as a growth hacking mechanism for
The Interchange IBC ecosystem? Because like, you know as a
developer, it makes sense to go deploy your contract.
There. There's going to be a number of
Blue Chip number of Blue Chip etherium.
Adapts the organ to deploy their like Hobbies, one of them, the
liquidity. They'll be pretty seamless to
move liquidity in and out of f MOS.
Yeah. Kepler is proposed or dead
natively with the theorems. Meaning metal mouth is supported
natively with traditionally theorem signing plus costume.
Assigning transactions through efp 712, which is a meta
transaction standards for now with meta Mouse.
You can sign IVC So, you know need to add any new
functionality to the existing project or two on your existing
client. You just need to to porn be 712
if you are using like a UI, for example, yeah, I think it's
going to be huge for the ecosystem because attracting new
developers and new product a new projects in general.
A new users that are native from the theorem ecosystem.
So they're going to attract more tokens more use cases for Or the
interchain ecosystem. Yeah, I was part of the core IVC
team and we're close with other teams in the ecosystem.
So all these functionality that is going to be the poor and
everyone else is going to be available to the entire Cosmos.
You can system throughout DC. And this is something that we're
not going to try to. For example, like capture all
these value only for the F most chain, but we want all, these
are all these equality to come into the cost.
Speaker system. All these different use cases to
come into the cosmos ecosystem. All these new functionality from
the etherium tool, use from these e, theorem tooling that
already works. And is already supported by
multiple teams is going to be available for like the one that
I explain whether multisig is going to be available for the
rest of the costumes, ecosystem through interchain accounts.
For example. Yeah, it all of the Dow tooling
and all, I mean all the yeah, I mean, it's just like solidity in
the evm. Have such an advanced.
I think I like any other other blockchain in terms of tooling.
Yeah, and I think this makes so much sense.
And something I tweeted about just before the call and we're
really excited to work on as creating like a product for new
project to make it super easy to deploy contracts.
To adamo's but also, but also are dropping new tokens to as
most acres to gas, guzzler contract.
So the same that we implemented for the cross drop on the
record. Romek director up will be
available for users to just like select those parameters filter,
the content like select some filters.
Like, leave out some centralized exchanges.
So like that, few valid or say one set up minimum my mom.
Set up a minimum amount of gas. Say one select, IVC
transactions, governance participation and then you get a
CSV file or like an Excel spreadsheet with all the
information of all the addresses that is publicly verified
because you will also get the amount of the list, of course,
so you can also run manually in order to verify this and then
you will be able to urge all the tokens directly to those
addresses by by using it. Directly on the, on the evm.
Okay, this is this is this, this is here.
So, I mean you essentially, you've got to build all of this
data, scraping infrastructure to do this.
Right? I mean, this is a centralized
tool that you're describing. It's not a, it's not a non chain
tool. Yeah, it's essentialist.
It's it's basically, it's basically the mechanism that we
implemented already for the wreck drop, but turning it into
a product, not only for ourselves because we already
implemented the director of mechanism.
And we also already selected, the contracts, the users from
the had staked on osmosis, from Cosmos Hobbit cetera, but we are
also supporting this. Mechanism for new projects.
I wanted to plug to ever most to be able to use this tool without
any likeness without thinking without just spending months and
months thing to like selecting the contracts and stuff.
You just need to select the contact address.
You just need to select like, oh, what's the minimum amount of
gas that I want? And then you can run these query
bigquery, of course, and then you get all these addresses and
you get the amount of tokens that you won because As you're
also being putting the, you also provide the in as an input into
the amount of tokens that you want and then you, yeah, you
just get the addresses. Okay.
That's, that's interesting. I mean, that's that's it.
That's, that's a product that you could, you could probably,
you know, charge for like a as a separate as a, even like a
separate product. So, you know, I I want to, I
want to zoom out a little bit and talk a little talk about the
interchain smart contract landscape, if you will.
You know, there is like, autism autism has a decent decent size
foot hole. I think in the cosmos ecosystem,
with Juno being one of the main chains where people can deploy
as causal modeling contracts. Other chains are also
implementing kazem. Awesome.
Yeah, Tara Moses. Yeah, Tara samosas Club, I think
is probably also going to do it at some point or keychain.
You know, then we have a gorak that a lot of people are very
excited about and now F MOS. I don't know.
I mean my feeling is that this fragmentation it could go either
way. Like I mean the fragmentation
could be good for the ecosystem because it creates a lot of
different types of applications you use cases, but I think that
alignment also helps accelerate. Development because everyone is
kind of focused in on one thing and my, my thinking around, this
is as the ecosystem gets bigger. And lots of new people come
into, the ecosystem is this bizarre approach that Cosmos is
always kind of stood by going to work in creating a like a
competitive ecosystem, where people can actually like an
ecosystem that can compete with the likes of Solon.
And the theory. Mm, and some of the other bigger
ones. Thing, a lot of these chains
will specialize in different use cases.
You have, of course, the base layer infrastructure, like the
like, the Admirals, Juno's, Etc, but you will also see, like
application-specific chains that have BMS that are specifically
targeting a use cage, like a samosas calls from awesome.
Environment is probably not going to support say.
I don't know random governance smart contracts or whatever like
and if these necessarily is that's going to be probably
stargaze but it's on this Moses is going to have Cosmos from
environment for for only defy. So it's kind of like even though
they have like the same application underlying
application. They're kind of like narrowing
down on the use case according to what they're already
implementing on their chain. That being said, I think there's
there's also going to be alignment between all these
different protocols through IV. See.
Even the even the the ones that are not necessarily have the
same runtime like or same VM like Cosmos me money.
On every most that implements a VM.
So once we implement the functionality for smart
contracts on Atmos to call Smart contracts and you know, for any
calls from awesome chain. Like the collaboration.
We're currently working with stargaze for enough DS is going
to be huge because then you'll have the same standard for
calling smart contracts on both chains.
And that's going to be creating huge alignment where the chains
now don't actually need to compete necessarily, but they
can also access the benefits from the other counterparty
chains that are that they're connected to So there will be so
no matter what the underlying runtime is accounts on the
Entertainer, going to be able to control contracts, regardless of
what the runtime is, what you're saying.
Yeah, they will be able like context from the VM will be able
to call contracts on the cosmos among vice versa.
I think assets like tw20 or which is cost Investment Group.
Sensation of tokens are going to be compatible with your C20
Sunday. Evm on.
Both of them are also going to be compatible with the cosmos
token for run. So the like creating a sender
ization and creating like interoperability.
Opponent switch between all these different runtimes and
EVMS. Those are going to help solve
many use cases and it's going to be able to provide more
functionalities like and and something that we haven't even
talked about is like interchange farming.
So farming on the interchain is something that I'm particular,
very particularly very very interested in and it's a model
that equal. Well, entertained, workflows
where you set up a workflow for one contract to be called.
And one chain, which calls another contract on another
chain or interacts, with osmosis or whatever.
You create the, you get the lp pools and then you're creating
the same hype that you had any theorem and 2020 with D5
farming. But you will now expanding that
to entertain because of the interoperability and that is
going to be huge that is going to be huge.
And in order for us to support these use cases.
We need to provide interoperability between these
different events, different VMS. And this is something I like.
Our team is personally really excited to work with and and
happy to work with any other team.
That's why we don't see like, for example, Juno or any other
Watson chain us like competitors or anything.
Like if you we are able to reach assets, unreached contracts
through IV. See it's going to create so much
so many opportunities for all day and users.
Yeah, I mean, I I fully, I fully am, I'm fully on board with the
idea that interoperability just creates more value everywhere
and which is why I'm so bullish on Cosmos and the interchain and
what IBC brings in terms of all these ecosystems being able to,
to interoperate and we haven't talked about like polka dot
also, like the ability for polkadot assets to move in and
out of the inner chain. Yeah, I think.
Interoperability is is the way that we're going.
Yeah, Eva, Mo's will be a point of entry for all these polka dot
from pharmacist in their pocket at ecosystem and also from
kasama. I'd like to kind of close this
part of the conversation for for now and move to, you know, what
happened in the in the days leading up to the launch.
And after the launch, we talked about this earlier that the
launch has been now pushed back. And so, for those of you
listening on epicenter, there will be a link in the show notes
where you can get the rest of this conversation.
Nation. So you'll have to come to the
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