1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,200 Welcome to AB Center, the show which talks about the 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,040 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,280 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane, and today I'm 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,240 speaking with Michael Agrov. I thought what if we have voting 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,160 power not equal to number of tokens, but what if we lock the 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,920 tokens and the voting power will be proportional to number of 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,200 tokens and time left before unlock. 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,280 So if you lock tokens for like the maximum of four years, you 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,800 have maximum voting power, but if you lock tokens for one year, 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,080 your voting power is 4 times less. 11 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:39,120 What do you think would be the kind of yield that people would 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,840 be able to earn? For like 20% it can go down if 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,240 liquidity in yield basis starts suppressing Bitcoin volatility 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:54,000 globally. And question is where is this 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,880 limit? Something around 50 billion TVLI 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,480 guess right So. Welcome to AB Center, the show 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,400 which talks about the technologies, projects and 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,320 people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,960 I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Michael Agroff, 20 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,680 who is the Co founder and CEO of Curve Finance, which was one of 21 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,600 the most influential, original and most successful D5 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,440 protocols. And more recently actually a 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,160 very recent, it's just a few weeks ago has launched a new 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,400 protocol called yield bases, which is also very interesting 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,240 and it's tackling one of the most tricky problems throughout 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,560 AMS, automated market maker impairment loss. 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,760 So I'm really excited to talk with Michael about this today. 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,720 So just before we get into that, I would like to share a few 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,200 words from our sponsors this week. 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:51,840 This episode has brought you my noses. 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,360 Building the open Internet one block at a time. 32 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,400 Nosis was founded in 2015 and it's grown from 1 of Ethereum's 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,800 earliest projects into a powerful ecosystem for open user 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,680 owned finance. Nosis is also the team behind 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,320 products that had become core to my business and that are so many 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,520 others like Safe and Cow Swap. At the center is Nosis Chain. 37 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,360 It's a low fee layer one with 0 downtime in seven years and 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,360 secured by over 300,000 validators. 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,440 It's the foundation for real world financial applications 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,600 like Nosis Pay and Circles. All of this is governed by Nosis 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,560 Dow, a community run organization where anyone with a 42 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,040 GNO token can vote on updates, fund new projects, and even run 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,480 a validator from home. So if you're building a Web 3 or 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,800 you're just curious about what financial freedom can look like, 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,400 start exploring at nosis dot IO. Thanks so much for coming on 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,240 today, Michael. It's really great to have you 47 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,520 back on. And so we had you on I think 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,560 four years ago, over 4 1/2 years ago already to talk about curve. 49 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,560 So it's been quite a while. Yeah, yeah. 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:02,120 I guess it's the time flies. So you said I'm a Co founder of 51 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,560 Curve but there is no other founder that's? 52 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,680 Right. Yeah, yeah, The only founder, 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,440 right? So I guess yeah, I guess Co 54 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,440 founded with with my with my laptop. 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,920 Yeah, with your laptop, Yeah. I should also mention disclaimer 56 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:24,400 that through my company course one, we are an investor in yield 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:32,200 basis as well. So let's maybe we can, I mean, I 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,440 think mainly we want to speak about yield basis. 59 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,720 But for those who are not familiar with curve, maybe it's 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,400 just a few minutes. Can you give like a very quick 61 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:49,520 background on, you know what curve is and what are your 62 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,120 biggest learnings from? Curve. 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Oh, absolutely. So a curve is, I would say, 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:03,760 probably best known as the the venue for my exchanging and 65 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,720 providing stable coin liquidity to swap between stable coins and 66 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,080 between I would say between LSTS as well. 67 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,600 I started it back in 2020 because well, with one reasons, 68 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,640 one of the reasons being because I was a big user of maker doll 69 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,080 borrowing die against ETH because I didn't want to sell 70 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:34,320 pressures ethers and but I needed some funds. 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:40,200 So I borrowed against ETH and you know, you could borrow, 72 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:46,840 sell, die on I don't know, somewhere and withdraw USDC as 73 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,960 USD in in Coinbase or something. But I found that actually 74 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,000 exchange between stable coins was very, very sub optimal 75 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,480 everywhere on centralized exchanges, on taxes, like yeah. 76 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,240 And at the at the same time I was thinking about making 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:10,560 liquidity for, you know, what we now call LSTS, liquid staking 78 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,800 derivatives. And I thought about actually the 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,080 same algorithm is applicable to stable coins. 80 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,520 So I launched Curve with making the ability to make stable coin 81 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,120 liquidity and already at 1,000,000 TBL, it's outperformed 82 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,320 everything in existence in this area. 83 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,800 And yeah, it just grew since then. 84 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:41,760 And of course it since then expanded to Bitcoin wrappers, 85 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,920 staked ethers, even volatile pairs. 86 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,920 And actually what powers your basis is some modifications of 87 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,600 crypto poles for making liquidity between the vault in 88 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,480 in volatile pairs. So, and after that, Curve 89 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,040 actually created its own stable coin Curve USD as well as 90 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,520 lending protocol with some very interesting mechanisms like on 91 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,200 liquidations and and also, of course, Curve is governed by 92 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:20,040 Curve Dow, for which I invented VE tokenomics and I iterated 93 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:26,120 further on that in yield basis because I think it was well, it 94 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,240 would be it was nice to somewhat update. 95 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,120 What about token economic designs do? 96 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,040 Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of stuff 97 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:45,840 there to go into just to write to zoom out a little bit, right. 98 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,120 So I guess the the thing in something like a unisop or write 99 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,320 to traditional MMM right. If you'd basically let's say you 100 00:06:53,320 --> 00:07:00,160 have like a USDCUSDT market and then you know, people provide 101 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,080 liquidity on both sides and then as you put in let's say USDC, 102 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:13,000 then the price of USDC goes up, right? 103 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,560 So it becomes more and more like a little bit no, no down, yeah, 104 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,560 yeah, yeah. Like you putting it down, right. 105 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,280 You, you putting in UCC, taking on USDT and then price keeps 106 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,400 going down. And then very quickly because, 107 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,520 because the, the, the sort of protocol thinks that means it's 108 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,960 losing value, right, Because it doesn't have, it's sort of an 109 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,400 internal price predictor, right, based on the trading volume of 110 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,720 the exchange. So then for, especially for 111 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,920 stable pairs, right? It doesn't make any sense, 112 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:46,240 right? Because they're, you know, 113 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,840 they're basic. Well, varies pricing, so price 114 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:58,520 is not set to 1 in curve. Actually it never was, but curve 115 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,560 has what we now call concentrated liquidity. 116 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,240 The very first concentrated liquidity was Curve, but it's 117 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,440 not that concentrated liquidity where you handcraft your 118 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,000 liquidity distribution. It's a concentrated liquidity 119 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,960 where it's distributed according to some special bonding curve 120 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,320 which concentrates liquidity around the price 1.0. 121 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,480 So because like you know that maybe maybe having liquidity at 122 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:34,000 price 0.5 is kind of useless in stable point world, right? 123 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,960 So you probably want everything be to be around 1.0. 124 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,640 And apparently the bonding curve, which is in curve that's 125 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,880 hence the name is actually very efficient. 126 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,960 So I, I don't think, I don't think anything in existence 127 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,440 provides significantly or bigger efficiency than that. 128 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,360 Yeah. For stable coins in place. 129 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,440 Yeah, maybe let's talk about the V tokenomics, because I think V 130 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:14,240 tokenomics is something you know, that you've seen come up 131 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,640 in other places. I think a lot of people ended up 132 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,920 copying it. But can you explain what was, 133 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,880 what was the problem you're trying to solve? 134 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,960 And like how how do V tokenomics? 135 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:34,160 Work so the actual the original idea was aligning the governance 136 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,720 with the long term success of the protocol and the problem is 137 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,320 this imagine that someone controls the protocol with 138 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,080 tokens or shares or whatever. So the more tokens or shares 139 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,080 they have the more volatile power they have. 140 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:56,840 What if they for example well, let me just pretty one one 141 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,480 example which I think what have happened maybe maybe it's not 142 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,520 that, but maybe it is so it's still a good example. 143 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,760 You remember how back in the days there were several crashes 144 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:18,200 with Boeing Max aircrafts, right And well, the the real reason 145 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,560 for these crashes was essentially low quality of well, 146 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:28,760 low quality of production because the company was trying 147 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,440 to save money on everything. But why did they try to save 148 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,920 money on everything? Well, it appears that they 149 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:43,400 switched a bunch of revenues to share buybacks and didn't spend 150 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,920 much money on on improving quality. 151 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:55,200 So, well, shares went up, but they didn't have much money for 152 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,160 the for the company to operate, so they had to fire some good 153 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:06,320 engineers and of course quality of aircrafts deteriorated and 154 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:13,480 well, it led to few catastrophes and well, guess what? 155 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,120 Shares started dropping. But apparently a bunch of 156 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,080 shareholders already sold their shares by that time. 157 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,160 And who knows, maybe they short it. 158 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:29,680 But then the US government salvage the company and they 159 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:34,200 bought the deep and well, I mean, shareholders benefited, 160 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,720 but it was not not great for the company at all. 161 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,880 Maybe it's not what happened, but that's how it looked, it 162 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,320 seemed to me. And I thought, well, what's the 163 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,400 fundamental reason for this to happen? 164 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,560 Fundamental reason is that shareholders are not aligned 165 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,720 with the long term success of the company. 166 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,520 So what if we do this? What if we align token holders 167 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,680 with the long term success of the project? 168 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,480 How do we do it? OK. 169 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,640 So and and how did you use tokenomics then to align these 170 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,240 incentives in the protocol? Right. 171 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:17,520 So I thought, what if we have voting power not equal to number 172 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:23,480 of tokens, but what if we lock the tokens and the voting power 173 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:28,080 will be proportional to number of tokens and time left before 174 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,840 unlock. So if you lock tokens for like 175 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,320 the maximum of four years, you have maximum voting power, but 176 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,680 if you lock tokens for one year, your voting power is 4 times 177 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:44,520 less. Or if you lock tokens for, I 178 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,560 don't know, for one week that your voting power is I think 179 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:57,560 0.5% of someone's voting power if they locked for four years. 180 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:04,360 So that's essentially the idea. So someone who has longer term 181 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,160 alignment, hopefully maximum, has the biggest say in the 182 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,760 future of the protocol. And that indeed worked. 183 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:19,680 Indeed, this produced some long term alignment, not necessarily 184 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:25,400 of physical people, but also long term alignment of protocols 185 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,640 built on top of curve, like convex or stake down or wire. 186 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,360 And they are all passionate about moving curve forward. 187 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,840 So this in a sense worked. But that was not the only thing, 188 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,280 as you can imagine. Right. 189 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,840 Because I guess that the way I'd imagine people would sort of 190 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:53,760 like, so work around it is if you, if you can just then like 191 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,400 you put that into some pool and that stakes for the maximum 192 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,720 duration. And then the issue like a liquid 193 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,440 token, right? That you can like true 194 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,600 immediately. That is, that is of course true, 195 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,520 but then you of course give your voting power to that protocol, 196 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,640 right? So that critical decides how to 197 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,920 use this voting power. That's one thing. 198 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:20,720 Another thing, if people who do that decide to exit, then this 199 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:28,160 derivative wrapper of of the lock token will depend and it 200 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,600 will go down from parity and people will stop selling it 201 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,960 because there is not enough liquidity to do it. 202 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:42,160 So you turn essentially. Well, you turn. 203 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,600 You turn this waiting for unlock into the market discount. 204 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Yeah, yeah. And then what was the impact or 205 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,120 or like what do you think were some of the positive effect of 206 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,240 evaluating this tokenomic? Right, one positive effect which 207 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:08,680 I didn't necessarily think of. Well, it appears that locking 208 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,840 the tokens removes them from circulation actually way faster 209 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,440 than buy back and burn would do, around three times faster. 210 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:26,360 So if Curve basically collected revenues which the protocol has 211 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,040 and bought CRV tokens from the market and burned, it would have 212 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:38,280 removed three times less tokens from circulation than than 213 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:44,240 locking removed. So it appears that VE economics 214 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:50,240 actually practically is more efficient for for decreasing 215 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,840 their circulating supply, which is what? 216 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,680 Well, I had no idea that this will be the case when I started 217 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,800 this. So it's a very interesting 218 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:06,000 economic consequence. So I mean, I don't know. 219 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,600 And if you are now, as you kind of started working on a new 220 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,840 protocol, are there particular things you feel like you've 221 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,240 learned are your biggest lessons from building curve where you 222 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,680 felt like this is something I want to do differently? 223 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,320 Yes, absolutely. So there were there were some 224 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,440 details about how VE to economics works, which I wanted 225 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:34,520 to change. Well, for once VE to economics 226 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,480 actually wants to resist this wrapping. 227 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,200 And this wrapping happened anyway. 228 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,640 But it created an obstacle of locking for multi 6 essential. 229 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,240 So I removed this obstacle in VEYB. 230 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,240 So even multi 6 can can lock VEYB. 231 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,840 That's fine. Another thing in the E 232 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,720 tokenomics, one of the function of VE tokens is boosting your 233 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,480 token emissions. So let's say if you put money in 234 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,680 the pools, take it to learn to earn CRV tokens, then you can 235 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:18,520 earn more CRV tokens if you have VECRV, which seems to be a nice 236 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,880 function of VE tokens. That's right. 237 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:30,840 But it encourages creation of natural monopolies in who hold 238 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,640 VECRV. And that is not necessarily bad 239 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,280 because they did a good function, but nevertheless, it's 240 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,880 a little bit less decentralization. 241 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Well, they are decentralized within themselves, but it, it 242 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,080 felt like it still felt like something wrong about that. 243 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,960 So I and also increasing boosting token production by 244 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,160 having VE tokens is a little bit technically difficult. 245 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:08,560 So I decided to remove that faction from the from the EYB. 246 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,120 So it's the EYB is not doing that thing. 247 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,840 Another thing which is not necessarily directly VE 248 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:25,160 tokenomics which I wanted to try is splitting, splitting revenues 249 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:31,480 between staked and unstaked. So in Curve there is no reason 250 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,720 to not stake your liquidity. So if you provide liquidity on 251 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,480 curve, you earn of course fees of the pool and if you stake you 252 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,880 also earn CRV tokens. And there is no reason to not 253 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:51,280 earn CRV tokens because like value, if you don't do that, 254 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,840 then it just earn less, right? So buy, earn less. 255 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,960 And people who earn CRV tokens, they sometimes they don't need 256 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,320 CRV tokens. So they kind of sell them. 257 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:09,000 And yeah, so it's, and it's a complication for integrations. 258 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,800 So I thought, why not do it differently? 259 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,320 Why not make it so that there are two kinds of people. 260 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,400 One, people want to earn natural yield, right? 261 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,720 So natural yield protocol is earning. 262 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,920 So they have auto compounding value which is growing in their 263 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,280 wallet. And those who don't want want 264 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,200 natural yield, those who who just want to hold the stable 265 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:38,480 value of what they put in and earn protocol tokens, YB tokens. 266 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,680 And that's what I did in yield basis. 267 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,720 So you essentially split between two kinds of liquidity 268 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,880 providers. And I think that is good for 269 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,640 integrations because for integrations it's actually much 270 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,640 easier to integrate something which doesn't doesn't earn 271 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,600 tokens, something which just automatically compounds value. 272 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:05,560 And it's allows to split between two kinds of people who want to, 273 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,400 who want to collect valuable governance tokens and not sell 274 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,920 it, hopefully. And who want to just earn real 275 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,520 yield and they would have sold the governance tokens but they 276 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,520 just can earn real yield in the 1st place instead. 277 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,320 So that's their idea and. I So that's kind of similar to 278 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,560 what Pendle did, no? I don't know. 279 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,600 Actually, I think the encouragement for me was not 280 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:40,920 Pendle, it was how you split yield in In Convex you can stake 281 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:46,880 CVX, CRV and can choose whether you earn CRV tokens or you earn 282 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,000 stable coins. Yeah, no, absolutely. 283 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,560 I think that makes perfect sense, right? 284 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,640 And it, it seems like a sort of win, win from both sides, right? 285 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,840 Because on the one hand, somebody wants to use yield 286 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,160 basis, they want to earn yield, then they mainly just want a 287 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,640 higher yield, right? And, and right, if they can get 288 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,120 higher yield, that's fantastic, right. 289 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:12,320 Then other people really want to but on the the token and then if 290 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,640 if they if you can sort of segregate that. 291 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,160 I think this it is very elegant. Right. 292 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,600 But this design leads to even more consequences which you 293 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,200 don't think of at the start. I think you, you mentioned to 294 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:32,240 limit cases 1 is when everyone wants to wants to earn 295 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,600 governance tokens, right? Well, and no one wants to earn 296 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,320 real yield. Pretty easy to imagine what 297 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,360 happens then. Of course stock and inflation is 298 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,360 probably is it has added Max at its maximum. 299 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,320 But nobody wants real yield. If nobody wants real yield, 300 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,720 where does the real yield go? And you probably can guess it, 301 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,320 it would go to all to admin fees in this case. 302 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,160 So admin fees would be very big if everyone wants to earn 303 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,640 governance tokens. Or imagine the opposite. 304 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,720 Imagine that everyone is, I don't know, like Bitcoin maxi 305 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,040 who don't really want to deal with those shit coins. 306 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,960 They want only Bitcoin. What happens? 307 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:22,800 Well, they own, they all want to earn real fees, real yield, so 308 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,280 they all don't stake. They have value of Bitcoin 309 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,240 growing, that's fine, but nobody wants to earn your governance 310 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,640 tokens. Nobody staked. 311 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,560 So is there any reason to have token inflation if that 312 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,120 happened? Well, apparently not. 313 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,560 So inflation of YB token is dynamic and depends on how many 314 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,040 people staked and if nobody stakes that inflation goes to 0. 315 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,480 So that is all dynamic and all driven by free market. 316 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,560 Cool. So let's let's we have actually 317 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,480 haven't yet talked about what your basis is. 318 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,480 So maybe explain what is the vision or how would you describe 319 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,040 your basis? Right. 320 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:13,000 So I would describe it as essentially I would say a vault, 321 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:18,040 right, or a set of vaults of which are built on top of curve 322 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,120 AMS which eliminate impermanent loss. 323 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:28,520 So you essentially provide liquidity and it is for the 324 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,120 user, it's looking like essentially A yield bearing 325 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:39,320 Bitcoin, if it's for Bitcoin of course or for raft bitcoins. 326 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,720 Right, because impermanent loss is a weird thing, right? 327 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,960 That I think people who have been liquidity pride is in defy, 328 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,000 you know, often have sort of, you know, painfully experienced 329 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,600 and, and other people, they, they have no idea what it is, 330 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,800 but basically, right, it's, it's in AMM, right? 331 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,960 So let's say you have a pairing and AMM something like if 332 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:07,840 Bitcoin and then if you put, let's say you put in $100 worth. 333 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,320 If when you put it in $100 worth of Bitcoin. 334 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,800 Now let's say the Bitcoin went up by 50%. 335 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,680 You know, if I just add $100 worth of EVE and and EVE stayed 336 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,880 the same, then normally I would have $250. 337 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:27,080 But if I put have both of those in the AMM actually sort of 338 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,280 asked if Bitcoin goes up, I'm selling some Bitcoin and I'm 339 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,040 buying more EFF and so I end up with less than $250, I end up 340 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,240 with Iron 200 and 42130. So some number like that I don't 341 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,680 know exactly. Actually this is easy to explain 342 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:49,000 quantitatively with with Uniswap 2 AMM, although it works the 343 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,200 same with Curve crypto swab AMM, right? 344 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,520 So imagine you have the simplest AMM you can imagine, same as 345 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,200 Uniswap one actually. So you put Bitcoin, 50K worth of 346 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,640 Bitcoin and 50K worth of U.S. dollar in this AMM, right? 347 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,840 So if Bitcoin goes up it sells a little bit of Bitcoin. 348 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,360 If Bitcoin goes down and buys a little bit of Bitcoin or well to 349 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,280 to the traders. So how does the price of your 350 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,760 liquidity behave? Apparently it is proportional to 351 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:31,960 square root of a Bitcoin price plus the fees it it earns on the 352 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,640 way. So imagine that Bitcoin went up 353 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:43,240 by factor of 4 right? Then your value in your AMM goes 354 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:50,120 up by sqrt 4 by factor of 2. So your 100K turns into two 355 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,080 100K. Well, sounds good, but what 356 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,000 happened if you did not put funds in the AM? 357 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,680 Well, 50K worth of Bitcoin goes up by a factor of four turns 358 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,720 into two 100K. But you have also these 50K of 359 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:14,800 USD so you'd have had 250K and in AMM you have two 100K which 360 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,160 is less. So sounds like you kind of 361 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,560 missed out when you were in the AMM. 362 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,640 And weirdly, if Bitcoin goes down it's kind of the same 363 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,280 thing. In AMM you have less than if you 364 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,440 have your funds sitting on a shelf. 365 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,840 Of course it's not exactly like that because AM Ms. also earn 366 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,960 fees and you get a little bit more in the AM, but fees usually 367 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:43,080 don't cover this gap because Bitcoin tends to go up faster 368 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:49,200 than AMM earns fees somewhat. So this was a problem for people 369 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,960 all the time. Yeah, absolutely. 370 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,160 And I've definitely experienced that in the past, right, where 371 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,680 I've been in like liquidity providers and A&M's with like 372 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,560 liquid. I have anecdotal. 373 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,840 I have anecdotal evidence from people who LP D between CRV and 374 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,240 ETH and they've been very happy. They LP that in uniswap 2 for 375 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,480 several years and they've been up both in terms of CRV and in 376 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,960 terms of ES. But it is one of the rare 377 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,720 examples where fee were actually bigger than the IO. 378 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,960 Yeah, exactly. But so the challenge, like let's 379 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,400 say if you take the Bitcoin example, you guys focus on 380 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,400 Bitcoin at least initially, then, you know, people tend to 381 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,920 want to hold on to their Bitcoin. 382 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,320 So they're kind of reluctant to put it into any kind of AMM 383 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,880 because they're like, well, you know, chant, there's a good 384 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,880 chance that I'll end up with less Bitcoin in the end because 385 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,040 every permanent loss and like, I don't want that, right? 386 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:57,360 So so how does yield faces get rid of impermanent loss? 387 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,960 Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, the price 388 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:08,520 of your of fuel liquidity, but like base price is proportional 389 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,160 to square root of Bitcoin price. So it feels like it's actually 390 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,680 not a real loss. It's kind of almost a 391 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,000 mathematical loss. So you, you, you really want to 392 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,080 get rid of that square root somehow. 393 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:29,240 And apparently it is possible and you just need to construct 394 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,920 some position which inverse is this square root function. 395 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,880 And well what position could that be? 396 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Apparently this position is leverage but it's not a typical 397 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,840 leverage, it's compounds in leverage. 398 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,920 So leverage where you keep loan to value ratio constant all the 399 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,160 time. To have leverage of factor of 2 400 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:57,840 you need 50% LTV and if you maintain that then your leverage 401 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:04,320 makes your position being square of the price of your collateral. 402 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:10,320 And if your collateral is your MMM position then you have 403 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,960 square of the square root. So it cancels out and that will 404 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,800 be proportional to Bitcoin price plus the fees it makes minus any 405 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,240 any sort of expenses or losses you have on the way about this 406 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,200 would be not impermanent plus. So it's so you can get rid of 407 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,360 impermanent loss this way. But then you have to have to 408 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,320 check are you actually net positive or no, right. 409 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,840 And it appears that you are actually net positive if you use 410 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:50,720 the right AMM under the hood. Right, So basically, right, so 411 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,040 we, we said before I'm trying to, so let's say you have like 412 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,000 the 50K USD and you have the 50K Bitcoin. 413 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,240 That's kind of like the traditional way, right? 414 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,240 But now we want to somehow get rid of the improvement loss. 415 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:14,960 So instead of a person putting in USD and Bitcoin into let's 416 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:24,600 say the curve AMM directly, they put just Bitcoin into into the 417 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,520 yield basis. That's right. 418 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,960 And, and so let's say they put in 50K worth of Bitcoin. 419 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,280 And actually I think better to explain it like 100K worth of 420 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,880 Bitcoin. OK, 100K worth of Bitcoin, and 421 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:45,200 the protocol borrows 100K worth of Curve USD, pairs with that 422 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Bitcoin, and uses this 200K position to collateralize your 423 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,920 100K loan. So the net value of this 424 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,120 position is 100. K yeah, so the exactly. 425 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,920 So you putting in 100K where for Bitcoin the protocol borrows 426 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:13,320 100K of stables and then it has this LP token and the LP token 427 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,960 basically represents the 100K work with PTC and the 100K work 428 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,280 of stable. That's the collateral. 429 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,560 And of course, that's. Yeah, yeah. 430 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,880 And this that kind of cancels out on average the curve USD 431 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,480 part. The tricky part is that this AMM 432 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,720 is actually is having concentrated liquidity. 433 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:43,200 So it's not XYK, it's XYK only on average, but in different 434 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,120 moments of time it can deviate from ideal balance. 435 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:53,400 So it can be not 5050, but you know, 4555 or I don't know, 6040 436 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,400 of something. And so it fluctuates like that. 437 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:03,880 And now that the loan is actually the loan is 50% and 438 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,720 actually that well on average AMM is also doing 50%, but it's 439 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,040 fluctuating around this ideal value and that is what is making 440 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,720 it work because that's like inevitable property of 441 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,600 concentrated liquidity that you have, you have it going out of 442 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,240 balance a little bit. Yeah, yeah. 443 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:34,360 So I'm curious under which scenarios and, and what's 444 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,680 interesting, right, is you guys launched your braces just before 445 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,680 we had this, you know, massive liquidation event. 446 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,160 You know, I guess it was a week ago. 447 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,720 Was it the two weeks? It was October 10. 448 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:57,800 Yes, two weeks ago, right, which you know caused lots of chaos 449 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,920 and some recent some centralized exchanges, some protocol depart 450 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,240 protocols. How did yield bases handle the 451 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,000 the volatility and liquidations that happened there? 452 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,400 Right. So I actually started this quite 453 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,280 a bit. So first thing I checked, there 454 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,080 are actually 2 MMS in the yield bases, 1 is curve AMM and 455 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,880 another is a re leverage MMAMM which keeps the leverage 456 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,200 constant. And there is a spread between 457 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,680 these two AMS. When things are very calm, 458 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,360 spread is actually huge. It's like, I don't know, 2% or 459 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,520 something. But when things are volatile, 460 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,120 spread can go down to almost zero. 461 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,000 But the weird thing, if arbitrage is not happening, then 462 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,840 spread can go negative because it's not, well, it's not worth 463 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,720 the guess for arbitrage traders to trade. 464 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,880 And that is what happened on October 10th. 465 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,400 And I thought, Oh my God, this should be inherently lossy when 466 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,240 the spreads are negative because like MMM gives out value. 467 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,159 And now that's happening because gas was very high and it was not 468 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,719 worth the trade for arbitrage traders. 469 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,120 And at the time, TBL was still a little bit small. 470 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,520 So bigger TBL is better. For bigger TBL, gas doesn't 471 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,320 matter, but for smaller TBL it does matter. 472 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,440 So and the TBL was smaller. So I thought, well, maybe TBL is 473 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,639 too small for these gas prices and Malay tweeted about that. 474 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,800 But then I actually started it more. 475 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,040 But did the system actually fundamentally make money or lose 476 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,280 money at that time? Because it could be either. 477 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,360 Because if arbitrage is not happening and it relies on 478 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,239 arbitrage, it appears that actually it not earned money. 479 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,840 So it was that crash was actually good. 480 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,440 Probably it would have earned more money if arbitrage was 481 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,360 happening better. But yeah, it was interesting. 482 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:09,920 And what's even better, after this crash, someone like turned 483 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,400 volatility on, like Bitcoin woke up, started being volatile, and 484 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,360 volatility is what earns yield in your places. 485 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,880 So it was actually very, very good. 486 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,160 Well, I mean, not to say that I wouldn't call a crash very, very 487 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,880 good, but volatility turning on was was a good one. 488 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,960 And by the way, this crash was well allegedly called by USDED 489 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,560 pegging on finance. But on curve USD did not depend 490 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,280 depend at all. It was super stable. 491 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:49,480 It's just, I don't know was due to every, I don't know, all 492 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:55,920 exchanges all all called futures or whatever looking at price on 493 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,840 Binance, but it was their own price. 494 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,720 Thank you. Your microphone is off. 495 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,400 Yeah, that's, that's great to hear that yield pace has 496 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,000 performed so well in that context. 497 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,080 I mean, let's talk a little bit about the metrics around the 498 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,640 launch, like what, what have you learned about the behavior of 499 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,320 the system? And I realize it's still early 500 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,400 phase, right? Still early phase it's capped 501 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,400 and that's good. Our cap was going up gradually, 502 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,640 right? So first the goal was to to 503 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,280 actually verify that everything is working as expected. 504 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,520 Although there were multiple audits and everything you can 505 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,680 never know, right? Well, it, it looked fine. 506 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,000 Then the cap caps were raised and right now the caps are at 507 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,120 150 millions total and that is a healthy number to make sure that 508 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,800 gas is not an issue and system performs as as it should. 509 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,680 A few things. I found a few things on the way 510 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:03,560 while this was operating. So I would be rolling out a new 511 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,360 version of the pools with liquidity migration. 512 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,760 I think the biggest saying is how value is split between 513 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,720 staked and unstaked when you it really depends on how you 514 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,520 measure profit and how you measure profit. 515 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,640 This metric is inherently volatile. 516 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:29,800 This volatility of this profit metric it it goes into the value 517 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,680 of staked tokens, right? So you won't want this 518 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,800 volatility to be as small as possible. 519 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,640 So I started thinking about it after talking to multiple people 520 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,760 and I realized that I actually can reduce this value volatility 521 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,640 by about factor of 10. And I implemented that in one 522 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,240 day. Auditors are still looking at it 523 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,960 and well, I think we are about to put this new version out and 524 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,920 buy great liquidity to the new version of the pools to make 525 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,440 this value volatility smaller because like otherwise you have 526 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,560 like growth happening. It's actually measurable what 527 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,120 the growth is. But the real value, it 528 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,200 fluctuates around this growth. And you know, it's like people 529 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,000 say, oh, Oh my God, I'm, I'm down by 1%. 530 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,080 Why? And then, Oh my God, I'm up 2% 531 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,960 in one day. What's going on? 532 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,160 And but it's really noise around the growth and growth is not 533 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,160 that fast. You cannot grow 2% in one day 534 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,800 and you cannot drop the fundamental value by 2% in one 535 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,480 day. You just have jumping around 536 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:53,880 happening around this growth. So I'm just, I just figured how 537 00:38:53,880 --> 00:39:02,400 to reduce this growth service volatility somewhat and that's 538 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,560 well that's worth a new version before scaling up more because 539 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,880 the eventual scale, which can be is much, much bigger than it is 540 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,040 now. So we got to figure out 541 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:22,880 everything before we scale. So regarding scaling right now, 542 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,600 I mean yield basis, right? This is vault where I'm as a 543 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,880 Bitcoin user, I can put my Bitcoin into the vault and then 544 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,880 that provides liquidity in curve, right, For a curve USD 545 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,000 cool, lift these Bitcoin versions. 546 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,320 Of course, you could imagine scaling in a few directions, 547 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,800 right? Like one could be maybe 548 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,760 providing liquidity also on, I don't know, Uniswap or maybe 549 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,360 other types of Amms. Or no, no, you couldn't do that, 550 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,720 I guess. See, I can do that. 551 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:00,680 I cannot imagine how you can do it on top of your swap. 552 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:01,960 Really. OK, It's OK. 553 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,360 Like it just wouldn't work. It wouldn't be. 554 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,120 Maybe, maybe you can, but not really I guess. 555 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,360 OK. So, so you think yield basis is 556 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:19,200 really like will will just serve on curve for dividing the pretty 557 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,240 young curve? OK, yeah. 558 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,120 And then and then initially, right, we have to focus on 559 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,880 Bitcoin. And of course, Bitcoin is the 560 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,840 largest asset by far. It's also something where it's 561 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,160 hard to earn yield in other ways. 562 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,760 Right, right. Well, I guess the idea is that I 563 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:46,560 want to get a most of Bitcoin background liquidity from yeah 564 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:52,520 away from centralized exchanges to on chain, just essentially 565 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,080 like it happened for stable coins. 566 00:40:54,480 --> 00:41:00,360 Yeah, yeah. And what is your expectation? 567 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,320 I, I think you did some like modeling with historical amounts 568 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,040 and I guess we have a little bit of, of real data now, but what, 569 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,960 what do you think would be the kind of yield that people will 570 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,800 be able to earn? Well, it's a good question 571 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:23,280 because after October 10, the natural APR appeared to be super 572 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,040 high like 20%. And I don't know what sustains, 573 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,480 but so far it does for some reason. 574 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,200 So 20% APR in for just from the fees right now. 575 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,840 And I kind of really promise that it stands like that, but 576 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,080 that's what observations show so far. 577 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:52,760 But 20% APR, I mean, I presume if you remove the caps then 578 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:55,840 people are going to be like 20% is incredible. 579 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,760 Let me put my Bitcoins in there and you'd end up. 580 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,000 Question is what's Yeah, it's not the token APR. 581 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,680 So it's it has nothing to do with tokens. 582 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,880 It's the APR from Bitcoin volatility. 583 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:14,400 So if it can go down if liquidity in the yield basis 584 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:20,320 starts suppressing Bitcoin volatility globally and question 585 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,840 is where is this limit? How high is the liquidity to 586 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,040 suppress Bitcoin price fluctuations? 587 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,760 So the 20% is not something that primarily comes from the trading 588 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,760 fees, but it's. It is, well, I mean it is from 589 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,040 trading fees, but trading he's come from volatility. 590 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,560 Right, because people basically say, oh, it it you have a 591 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,400 decoupling free between the curve pool and like the Yeah, I 592 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,400 know. So it's arbitrage, Yeah. 593 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,080 And it matches the numbers pretty much match the arbitrage 594 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,640 model. So my simulations simulates 595 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,520 arbitrage and it's almost arbitrage. 596 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,800 It's a little bit bad more than arbitrage because you have 597 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:13,640 natural swaps like by a cow swap or kyber or even curve UI. 598 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:21,160 But I think around 80% of the trades at least is arbitrage, 599 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,680 and I counted on 100% arbitrage when I was simulating. 600 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:33,520 If you have natural volume being bigger than than 0 right, then 601 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,440 of course you have more revenues than just arbitrage. 602 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,280 But even just arbitrage is giving you good numbers. 603 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:48,600 So, so Dineen, you, you think your basis can like how, how big 604 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,600 can it accommodate? I mean, can it can be billions? 605 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,120 Can it be like $10 billion worth of billion or like? 606 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,040 A good question. I tried to estimate when does it 607 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,320 start affecting Bitcoin price and like when will it affects 608 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,760 its own yields by its own liquidity by by the means of 609 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,280 making Bitcoin more stable. I think it's something around 50 610 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:21,840 billion TVLI guess right? So well, I mean, I mean it's not 611 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,280 unimaginable. It's comparable to RVTVL, right, 612 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,160 Right. So it's not like something we've 613 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,160 never seen. It's just, I mean, it's just 614 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:37,080 making really good fees. But TBL is not something 615 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,320 unimaginable. Yeah, yeah. 616 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,080 That's that would be enormous. Yeah, that's the goal. 617 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,960 Well, of course, we have not only Bitcoin, we have also ease 618 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,880 and we can make liquidity for ease and who knows, maybe 619 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,480 something else. But we shouldn't really get too 620 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:03,040 crazy because I'm pretty sure it cannot work with very volatile 621 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,360 coins like I don't know, like defy tokens or meme coins. 622 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,320 I cannot think it will work because they tend to sometimes 623 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:18,600 change the price too rapidly by factor of 2 or something in one 624 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,840 block and stay down or I don't know, stay up. 625 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,480 You cannot really work with that. 626 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,520 Right, because you need to rebalance like quickly enough. 627 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,600 Yeah, you, you, you have the, you have to have the price being 628 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,920 more or less smooth, right? Even with ETH price when I was 629 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,920 modelling, I've noticed that for example, if you look at ETH 630 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:48,240 prices during FTX collapse, ETH price collapsed fairly rapidly, 631 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,040 like instantly to, I don't know, I don't know from what to what, 632 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,720 but it's caused. It does cause some losses in the 633 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,400 algorithm, like 5 -, 5% on the spot. 634 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,640 And that's if so, imagine what happens if you use some meme 635 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,640 coins. So please don't do your bases on 636 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,320 meme coins. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 637 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,000 And then I guess even on October 10th, right, we saw like, I 638 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,000 mean, I, I don't know what it looked like for Etherium there, 639 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,920 but it seemed to drop like super fast. 640 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,160 Yeah, I will include that in simulations when I'm simulating 641 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,320 parameters for Etherium. So before all any theorem out, 642 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,040 all the parameters are really carefully simulated. 643 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:39,360 Like if you have the range of parameters different from like 644 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,960 seriously different from what it is now, then instead of having 645 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,920 profits, you will have losses, right. 646 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,960 So I'm. Then in in the theorem example, 647 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,840 of course the ease also the ability to stake. 648 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:59,200 If is it, would you be able to somehow get the staking yield as 649 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:00,960 well or not? I think so, yeah. 650 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,720 Why not? How would you do that? 651 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:10,080 Well, I think the simplest way would be to just use, I don't 652 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:15,760 know, staked ease instead of 5th, right then by the way, then 653 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,200 you, well, what then happens? Yeah, you essentially would earn 654 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:26,960 a stake in yield on top of your yield basis yield, which is, I 655 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:32,040 don't know, but not bad I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 656 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,760 Well, not much, but honest work I guess. 657 00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:47,160 Yeah, yeah. Then do you, what do you, what 658 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,680 do you think about expanding to other chains, you know, like I 659 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,600 don't know like a Solana or or other EVM chains? 660 00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:01,600 Yeah, absolutely it is possible. And I think, well, at least 661 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,760 that's how I planned it. It's possible to do it 662 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,800 differently, but I planned it so that each new chain should get 663 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,600 its own governance token, right. Of course, all the investors 664 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,600 will have their distribution honored in all the new tokens, 665 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:22,280 But otherwise, the token split can be a little bit different so 666 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,920 that you're aligned with these chains. 667 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,000 I don't know, marketing or whatever, whatever the rules are 668 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:34,040 on that chain to make sure it's well aligned with the local 669 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,720 ecosystem and whatever. And also you don't really have 670 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:44,160 to deal with breaches. So you can actually have native, 671 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:51,200 I don't know, native yield basis which is dedicated to this chain 672 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,920 and you are not relying on some, I don't know, some DBNS or 673 00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,560 whatever. So you it's like really living 674 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,040 there and you like you don't introduce more risks in the 675 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,120 system essentially. And so the way you enforce this 676 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,720 is because I guess somebody could just sort of copy it 677 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:16,400 without information or there is some kind of license. 678 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:23,600 Or there is of course license, but apart from that it's, well, 679 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,160 it requires some very particular knowledge to figure out the 680 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,800 right parameters and you need to do that from time to time. 681 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,760 And I don't really think that where people yet figured out how 682 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,600 to do it properly. So I I would be fairly surprised 683 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:48,640 if someone successfully forks it because it's not really well 684 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,360 done. Forking wouldn't really work 685 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,640 here. Yeah, right. 686 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,960 But at the same, but at the same time, at the same time, it is 687 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:03,640 totally possible to to make some deals with talented people to 688 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,000 maintain something running and whatever like that's a 689 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,280 possibility. But versus the team can also do 690 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,040 that depending on capacity. So yeah. 691 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:23,120 So I'm also curious about the, you know that the relationship 692 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,520 here between yield bases and curve going forward. 693 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,880 I mean, of course, in some ways it seems very symbiotic, right? 694 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,560 So yield basis kind of becomes a big liquidity provider for 695 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,840 curve. Curve presumably has more 696 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,080 liquidity, more liquid market, maybe earns more fees. 697 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,360 Are there ways in which there are like conflicts of interest 698 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,560 there too or do you see challenges in that kind of 699 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,440 relationship? I think challenges are usually 700 00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,360 they usually come with public not entirely realizing how big 701 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:07,200 of the return would yield bases do for Curve outside outside the 702 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,760 token allocation part. So there is a token allocation 703 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,960 to Curve, but the best use for it is to incentivize liquidity 704 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,880 in Curve USD pools, which is what will be happening very 705 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,840 shortly. For yield basis, it's absolutely 706 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,120 required to the liquidity for Curve USD will be big, and 707 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,240 that's essentially why yield basis may. 708 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,880 Since yield basis shows Curve USD, yield basis makes this 709 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,000 allocation of YB tokens to Curve. 710 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,400 So they will be used to buy votes for Curve USD, stable coin 711 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,200 pools like Curve USD, USD C, Curve USDUSDT and so on. 712 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:57,960 And that will create a part from big liquidity for Curve USD. 713 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:04,480 It will create supply sinks for Curve USD, which means that 714 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:11,000 eventually it will lead to more loans in Curve USD and more 715 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,080 borrow fees. But also all the trading which 716 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,960 is happening in YB pools will create volume in Curve USD 717 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:26,440 stablecoin pools and these fees generated by Curve USD pools 718 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,720 will go to Curve Dow essentially. 719 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,320 Apart from that there is peg keeper mechanism in Curve USD. 720 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:39,280 So if curve USD slightly D pegs up or down, then peg keeper 721 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,800 steps in and essentially essentially buys or sells curve 722 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,360 USD and it earns money for the Dow on that as well. 723 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:55,080 Like essentially money on passively trading the Dpegs. 724 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,320 They are micro Dpegs, so you cannot even notice them, but 725 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,440 they do happen and they do turn into returns for curve Dow. 726 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:11,160 So that's that's another a stream of revenue and it's 727 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,200 actually that whole streams of revenue. 728 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,200 They they are bigger than what I originally thought. 729 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:25,360 And it looks like curve Dow would earn, I would say 730 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:31,040 something comparable to what YB Dow earns from your basis. 731 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,360 So this is this is what it seems to me. 732 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,880 OK, so that's. So, so it's actually fairly 733 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:45,160 huge, it's just not all not direct driving use all the time. 734 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:50,520 But you know, when volatility of Bitcoin was particularly large, 735 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:55,000 you probably could see that Curve USD was the the stable 736 00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:00,160 coin with the biggest trading volume on Curve in total already 737 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120 with just 150 million TB on build basis. 738 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,440 Yeah, yeah. And so the way Curve USD works, 739 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:14,480 it's it's similar to the maker dial model or. 740 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,440 In a sense you can say that it's ACDP. 741 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,320 So in that sense it's similar to make a dial. 742 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,320 It has few unique features like a reversible liquidations. 743 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:30,360 So if you, if price goes down and you, your collateral gets 744 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,800 converted to curve USD, but if price goes up, your cholesterol 745 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,080 gets converted back to your collateral and you kind of 746 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,880 didn't lose your cholesterol on the bottom, so you didn't sell 747 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,080 the bottom. That's nice. 748 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,240 That's one of the things why curve USD is so cool. 749 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,120 Another thing is stabilization mechanism of curve. 750 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:55,600 USD is well something we called peg keeper, which works I think 751 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,280 better than anything else for keeping the peg tight. 752 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,600 Cool. So what are the, what's the 753 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,640 timeline now in the upcoming milestones for your basis? 754 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,200 So you mentioned the protocol upgrade. 755 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,320 Yeah, we do. So the volatility pools whatever 756 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,320 is coming. Yeah, pools upgrade I think is 757 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:23,640 gonna happen. Well, either, well, maybe, maybe 758 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,480 like maybe on Monday is fine because I will have all the 759 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,280 feedback or and we will implement of all this in UI in 760 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,160 UI, but it's actually ready in code. 761 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,680 So well, maybe possible to do it on weekends, but I don't know if 762 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:40,640 people are up to that on weekends. 763 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:46,600 So anyway it's imminent for the upgrade here, but you need 764 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,240 people to actually migrate liquidity because in everything 765 00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:53,520 I build I make non upgradable contracts. 766 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,000 So you cannot upgrade contracts which hold liquidity and that's 767 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:04,800 by design. But also on Monday, I think the 768 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:13,560 vote on curve will finish the vote to spend by B allocation on 769 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:20,320 incentivizer Curve USD pulls. And this this YB will will be 770 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,600 used for buying volts for Curve USD pools. 771 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:29,880 And that's happening on Monday. That means that on Thursday, 772 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,720 incentives for Curve USD stable coin pools will go up and the 773 00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:37,680 pools will start increasing their size. 774 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:46,520 And it means that after that TBL of curve of of yield basis can 775 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,720 be further increased with the caps further increasing. 776 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,560 So well, how long after that that will happen is a good 777 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,680 question. But technically in a few days 778 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,040 it's ready. So that's I think the next step. 779 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:08,440 So we have this upgrade of the pools and then increase of of 780 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,160 the cap and then we really, really need to turn the fee 781 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:19,800 switch on to connect the admin fees to VEYB so that VEYB earn 782 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:24,000 those suite admin fees. And after that the system will 783 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:30,760 be like fully connected. After that it should work for, I 784 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,600 don't know, couple of more weeks in this mode connected. 785 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:40,640 So first of all, as I said, we would be ready to raise to to 786 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,760 raise the caps after Curve stable coin pulls, get 787 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:49,000 incentives and the raise what should be then to maybe half a 788 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,520 billion. And then we need to connect 789 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,880 admin fees to the EYB. After that is done. 790 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:03,320 I think in a couple of weeks we would be ready to raise the caps 791 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,520 a little bit more than half a billion, I don't know 1 billion 792 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:12,440 or 2 billions or something. We will see and after that we'll 793 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,560 probably should watch and continue raising the caps. 794 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:20,000 You cannot really raise the caps instantly because you don't want 795 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,520 to affect curve USD stability. You really grow two things 796 00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:29,600 together, yield basis growing up and Curve USD growing up, 797 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:36,280 because Curve USD is used as the stable coin in your basis. 798 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,240 Of course, I could try to make a deal with some of the 799 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,480 established stable coins. I don't know Teller or 800 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:48,360 something, but you know, I created Curve USD and Curve USD 801 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:53,880 is making revenues for Curve Dow and I'm very incentivized to do 802 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:59,360 it for to do it with Curve USD. So, yeah, cool, cool. 803 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,720 Well, it's fantastic. I, I really enjoyed the 804 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,360 conversation with you in there. I think it's a super 805 00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,520 interesting, fascinating protocol. 806 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,680 And I, I, yeah, I think this could absolutely become massive. 807 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,200 So it's been really exciting to talk with you about it and to 808 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,440 sort of be a part, a little bit of this evolution. 809 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,240 And I'm, I'm really excited to see how your place is going to 810 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:25,000 develop in the next, you know, in the next months, in the next 811 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,960 years. Absolutely, absolutely. 812 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,440 It's a, it's a fascinating thing. 813 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:35,480 I I'm very excited to see that it actually actually works. 814 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,560 And it actually works as predicted. 815 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:44,040 So as just the numbers are, they are pretty much matching the 816 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,880 simulations. That's so exciting to see. 817 00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,520 Yeah, absolutely. Cool. 818 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,000 Thank you so much, Michael. It's big pleasure having you in 819 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,520 the show. Thank you.