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This is the epicenter episode 
460 with guest Amin soleimani. 

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Welcome to episode of the show 
which talks about the 

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Technologies projects in people 
driving decentralization and the

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blockchain revolution. 
I'm Brian Crane and I'm here 

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with Frederick Ernst today, 
we're going to speak with mean 

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silly money. 
He's been on the podcast before 

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today, we're going to talk and 
he's a co-founder of reflux or 

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rap, we're going to talk about 
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So with epicenter, we are 
looking to hire a community 

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manager. 
So if you want to, you know, to 

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help us grow the audience and, 
you know, produce better 

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content. 
So if you're passionate about 

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Krypto, And creating content we 
want to hear from you. 

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You can find a link for applying
in the for the position in the 

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show notes. 
And yeah, if you know somebody 

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else, you think might be good 
fit. 

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Just shared with them and would 
love to hear from you. 

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And if that mean, thanks so much
for coming on, it's great. 

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Having you Yeah, it's great to 
be here. 

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So I was I was listening to this
long three-hour discussion 

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devoted it just today. 
I think I'll finish you today 

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about tornado cash and, you 
know, all these things and I 

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heard you in there to sort of, 
you know, speaking a little bit,

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the voice of, you know, pure 
crypto decentralisation. 

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You know, I think there's a lot 
of other voices in there as 

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well. 
I guess that sort of ties may be

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a bit into reflexes, too, but I 
don't, Maybe you can have like a

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brief background from you like, 
you know, who do you, how did 

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you get into crypto and then 
sort of, how did that end up 

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with you working on reflex sir? 
So I got in the crypto, like, 

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many people buying mushrooms on 
the Silk Road, a decade ago. 

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I lost all my money in macaques 
sometime. 

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After that, I learned solidity. 
Joined consensus, worked on 

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ethereum spark contract stuff, 
built some advertising stuff, 

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some micropayment stuff, payment
channels, they channels, 

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eventually started sanctioning 
is trying to bring the crypto 

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blockchain, etherium 
micropayments Tech to porn and 

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Outsides and then later started 
reflex ER which makes a stable 

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coin Rye, a fork of maker does 
die so that it would stay sort 

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of eith maximalist. 
Also helped start Dows started. 

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Malik Dow back in the day. 
Made Medicare tell Ventures and 

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allow of code base and so helped
build some of the early early 

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doubts, really generally excited
about furthering tools for 

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people to maintain sovereignty. 
Have Yes to financial services, 

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be able to store money transact,
privately securely. 

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I don't know how this made me 
the poster child of 

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decentralization in that last 
three-hour conversation that we 

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had. 
It was a Twitter spaces hosted 

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by John Gunther and her I think 
company like espresso sis is 

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like a privacy thing. 
So there are some 

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representatives from that on it.
As you go is there there's a 

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bunch of people Zuko's obviously
much, you know, he's an actual 

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crew. 
I prefer he's a veteran of the 

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space. 
I think I was just the angriest 

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and loudest person on the call 
because tornado is kind of 

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personal for me, helping with 
Malik Dow, we gave tornado their

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first grant. 
I knew the people doing it, you 

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know, I like them. 
I'm not happy. 

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That one of them is sitting in a
jail cell, right now? 

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It's not great. 
So I was very angry. 

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I was just expressing that on 
the call. 

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I think obviously the stuff has 
far-reaching implications. 

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A lot of the conversation has 
moved, not only from privacy to 

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also the implications of like 
censorship and stable coins, 

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having sensible collateral and 
stuff like that. 

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And so, you know, I've been able
to contribute in multiple places

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in this course. 
Several coins having sensible 

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collateral that sounds like 
maker the other poster child of 

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decentralization in this space, 
which kind of which is an image 

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that has kind of fractured over 
the tornado fall out a little 

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bit. 
And I really want to talk about 

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this at length, but before that,
I think we kind of need to cover

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our bases here and kind of 
understand how Rai works and how

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it's different from maker. 
So maybe I think Listen as well.

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Be familiar with how Maker Works
and right built on a lot of 

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ideas from maker. 
So more specifically, the first 

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version of maker what's now 
called. 

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Sorry. 
So can you talk maybe a little 

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bit going from there? 
And what, you know, talking 

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about the point where you chose 
to go on a different path than 

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makeup. 
Yes, I was a big maker fan. 

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Dyfan. 
All through 2018 19 spec chain, 

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couldn't get bank accounts and 
so died was a really great 

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resource for us to be able to 
not lose all of our money in 

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eith during the bear Market back
then. 

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I liked it as like cypherpunk 
money, it was like you know only

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backed by eith, there's not a 
lot of governance, just kind of 

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works the motivation to Fork 
came. 

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Later in 2000, think 21. 
They started adding other forms 

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of collateral. 
They went multi collateral so 

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they started loading up on us-- 
DC and they started doing a lot 

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more governance and so I wanted 
to see what the sort of pure 

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decentralized. 
Sort of stable coin could work 

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like and so we forked off of 
multi collateral die and we made

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Rai Rai has only a single form 
of collateral just raw Eve. 

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That accepts and you deposit the
eith and fairly the similar way.

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To Min, try the same way, you 
might MIT die. 

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The key difference between Ryan 
and die is that in order to 

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maintain stability, without 
having centralized collateral, 

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like u.s. 
DC, which allows people to short

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die against us, DC, easily, and 
keep diet the peg die. 

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Awry allows the system to have 
negative interest rates. 

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Now, Felt like a negative 
interest rate, where you lose 

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money, it doesn't turn your 
hundred dollars into $99. 

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The way it works is that it 
changes the actual Peg price. 

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So in all of the other stable 
coin systems, they have a peg 

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price of one dollar. 
Rise says, well actually we're 

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going to make it less than a 
dollar and this is a way to 

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incentivize people to sell it 
and so it does. 

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So gradually over time and it 
expresses the rate at which it 

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will do so on, that's called the
Redemption rate which is 

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shorthand for the rate of change
of the Redemption price. 

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Which itself is like the peg. 
If you like maybe before we get 

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into like the exact mechanics 
over, I, maybe it would be worth

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to speak a little bit because 
you because you said, you know, 

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there was like two points, 
right? 

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Basically that bothered you one 
was there was it became multi 

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collateral right. 
In today, I think it's something

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like 70% is, you know, like USD 
see, right in maker and the 

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other thing was, like, the 
governance. 

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Can you talk a little bit maybe 
like Why did you think those 

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were big issues? 
And, you know, a little bit like

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sort of division that you solve 
for r? 

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I, you know, sort of like 
opposing maker Yeah, so the two 

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issues, right? 
The multi collateral and the 

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governance. 
So at the time it didn't seem 

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like multi collateral and like 
the u.s. 

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DC in flow is going to be that 
bad right now. 

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It's really bad right now, 
they've like 20% crypto 

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collateral and like 80% you know
us DC and USD see derivatives. 

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So it's not entirely unfair to 
called. 

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I look at USD see condom You 
know, I do that. 

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I thought it was a safe way to 
use USD. 

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See, you know, like friends, 
don't use, let friends, use you 

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SCCM protected. 
Well, we'll come back to whether

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or not that's the case, but the,
the sensor ability of the 

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collateral is an issue. 
Because if, for example, the 

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u.s. 
DC has to freeze the die, 

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contractor all of the die 
contract. 

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Then everybody holding die, has 
to, you know, is kind of stuck, 

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they need, they don't have a way
of getting their money back. 

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And the people who have Ethan, 
the system were also kind of 

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stuck because they don't have a 
way of like, paying back their 

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debt. 
So it's not great for the 

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system. 
The governance stuff is also 

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something that we wanted to 
improve on a lot of the 

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governance comes from having 
multiple forms of collateral 

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needing to manage the different 
kinds of collateral and how you,

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you know, assign risk to each 
one with the stability for you 

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etcetera. 
But another thing that you do 

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with the governance is you like 
vote to set in Straights. 

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So whenever die is not stable 
bunch of people get together in 

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a meeting and they say, we will 
raise this ability for you to 

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something higher. 
For example, if the dye is below

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Peg, you know, so they did this 
before died went below Peg to 

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like 95 cents and then they 
raise this ability for you to 

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like 20% and then diary Peg. 
So the thing that ride does that

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school, is it automates this 
process and zooming out to like 

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the vision of this thing? 
The vision of this thing NG is 

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like we want International 
cooperation on a reserve 

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currency. 
This has not been my goal for 

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that long. 
It's actually been a stated goal

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of the central Bankers of the 
earth who have thought about 

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this for a long time. 
The way that they make progress 

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on this is they write papers in 
ethereum. 

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We can do more than writing 
papers. 

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We can test things. 
And so Riya is a demonstration 

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of a system that has a 
transparent rules based engine 

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too. 
Stabilize itself, that isn't 

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necessarily dependent on a group
of people to go and figure it 

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out. 
Maybe let me, let me, let me 

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Loop in here so make a in its 
original design. 

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Also, if I recall correctly, had
had a Target rate feedback 

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mechanism and they ended up not 
implementing this in and and and

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it basically ended up 
introducing this governance 

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based parameter to do, you know 
why? 

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00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:44,800
That happened. 
Yes, so basically it was a 

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political thing and it seemed at
the time that the dollar Peg was

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more palatable and would get 
more adoption than letting it 

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float. 
It was like it was a little too 

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weird. 
I don't know if people remember 

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at the time. 
Like I was sending twenty 

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dollars of eith when Heath was 
$20 is like pizza money, the 

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existence of something like died
was a great Innovation because 

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it was the first stable coin 
ever that. 

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There and people could use to 
even transact, like using not 

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volatile asset. 
But yeah, the the original 

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design had the trf EM, Target 
rate feedback mechanism that was

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Nikolai. 
The technical co-founders plan 

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was not to Peg. 
It it seemed he lost the 

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political battle and the 
pragmatists were more interested

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in having a dollar Peg because 
that would help growth. 

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And so maker, never really had 
to deal with this problem of 

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trying to force people to not 
hold die or sell their die. 

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If the If the price of die was 
above the pack. 

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And yes you see was also 
introduced later, right? 

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Wasn't one of the early 
collaterals introduced a couple 

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of years ago when prices fell 
precipitously, it looked like 

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00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:07,300
the entire system might collapse
at some point that's when they 

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00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,600
introduced the u.s. 
DC collateral, right? 

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00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,300
Yeah. 
So it was right around black 

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Thursday, I think March 12th 
2020. 

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Eith crashed a lot. 
I think 50% in 24 hours and I 

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00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:25,100
spiked up and In order to deal 
with the excess dye to man, they

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00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:29,200
added the peg stability module, 
which allows you to Mint die 

227
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,100
against us DC. 
And so, that was how they were 

228
00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:36,800
able to lower the price of die 
by adding the u.s. 

229
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,100
DC. 
Now, I've made memes where I 

230
00:14:38,108 --> 00:14:41,900
have like maker introducing the 
u.s. 

231
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:46,100
DC as like a trojan horse for 
aetherium, right? 

232
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,100
And it's like the caption is 
like where did it all go wrong? 

233
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,900
And it's like that day is what 
it all went wrong. 

234
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:55,600
It didn't seem it was going to 
go all wrong from there and you 

235
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,700
know like it didn't seem obvious
that we were going to end up at 

236
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:03,100
like 80% you SEC and die from 
that point. 

237
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:07,300
But for me, it was enough to 
want to try something different 

238
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:09,900
and to try and see how far we 
could get with Rye. 

239
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,500
Let's have. 
Let's continue this discussion 

240
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,500
after the technicalities Brian. 
If you don't object because 

241
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:20,400
basically in the maker in the 
maker Forum there's also 

242
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,600
discussion currently going on 
that was started last. 

243
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:28,400
Week by Runa about whether, you 
know, to kind of make die also 

244
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,000
free float. 
So, basically, this is kind of, 

245
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,400
I think there's a larger 
discussion to have a, to be had 

246
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,700
here a couple. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

247
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:44,000
So, let's kind of before we kind
of look at the exact feedback 

248
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,900
mechanisms kind of May. 
I give you my idea of how Rye 

249
00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:54,000
works and you can correct me. 
Because it's a Recount intuitive

250
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:58,500
and a little weird mechanism to 
be honest. 

251
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:02,600
So basically, if it goes off 
pack and the pack is arbitrarily

252
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,200
chosen, so it's not one US 
dollar but you started it pie 

253
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:11,400
dollars to kind of to kind of 
make everyone understand that 

254
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,800
this is super arbitrary. 
And then basically the the 

255
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:23,200
mechanism that is behind it kind
of tries to push back the Market

256
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,400
price to the Redemption price at
any point in time, no matter 

257
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,300
where the regen Redemption price
currently is, and the way that 

258
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:37,800
it does, it is, it does move the
Redemption price closer to the 

259
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,700
market price. 
It moves it further away, which 

260
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:42,200
is a little bit 
counterintuitive. 

261
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,700
Can you talk about that? 
Yeah, so the market price, so 

262
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:49,800
the things happen in like the 
sequence, right? 

263
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,100
It could be like the price of 
Youth goes down, you know, the 

264
00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:58,600
price of people by ride a cover,
their their debt right now the 

265
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,600
price of Rise higher. 
And so well the price of Rye 

266
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,800
being higher. 
You need to get people to sell 

267
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,800
the right or you need to get 
more people to Min, try and sell

268
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,200
it the way the protocol does 
that as it moves, the peg price.

269
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,599
Down away from the market price 
as you said. 

270
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,200
So if the market price starts 
out at, you know, let's say 

271
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,599
three dollars and the and it's 
at equilibrium at three dollars 

272
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:28,800
and it goes up by, you know, 
let's say 5% or something that's

273
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,200
like three dollars and I don't 
know, one percent three sets of 

274
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,200
15 cents. 
Well that's a lot. 

275
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,400
And so that's going to set a 
negative rate. 

276
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,200
And so what's going to happen 
next is that the peg that 

277
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,400
started at three dollars is 
actually going to start dropping

278
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,400
to 90999. 98 at a specified 
rate. 

279
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,600
And so this is going to create 
the incentive for people holding

280
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,400
ride to realize that they should
sell it because in the future, 

281
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,700
not only is the price going to 
go lower, but if the price goes 

282
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:00,900
lower and they don't sell it, 
then the price is going to go 

283
00:18:00,908 --> 00:18:03,200
lower faster. 
So it's kind of an exponential 

284
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,100
function that you're throwing in
front of this thing. 

285
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:10,900
And it's basically like, you 
know, will keep growing until it

286
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:15,600
resolves the question on day. 
So so the 2315. 

287
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,900
And now this Redemption Now it's
already different, right? 

288
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:26,300
From this Peg, right? 
So the peg was at with three and

289
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:33,100
its trading at 3:15 and now it's
decreased to 298. 

290
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:41,600
I mean, why, why do I believe 
that the price in the future is 

291
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,700
going to go down because the peg
price is lowered. 

292
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,900
Well, if it doesn't, it's going 
to keep going down faster. 

293
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,600
So like you might stare at, you 
know, - I don't know. 

294
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:03,600
Something like 30% rate if you 
have a five percent difference 

295
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:08,000
and the sort of what it's tuned,
it's like 126 127 in terms of 

296
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,900
like 1% error will drive a six 
or seven percent, you know, rate

297
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,600
and so like, let's say you're 
staring at a negative 30 percent

298
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,500
rate. 
Well, you know that as soon as 

299
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:20,900
Price goes back to three or you 
know, whatever the new 

300
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:22,800
Redemption price is that the 
rates going to go away. 

301
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,300
But so long as it doesn't, that 
rates going to keep growing and 

302
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:30,100
the price is just going to keep 
dropping and this is a good deal

303
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:34,100
if you have minted rye and 
you're shorting Rye because for 

304
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,300
me as somebody who's shorting 
Rai, my debt is shrinking, which

305
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,500
is sort of the same thing as 
making money, as a rye holder. 

306
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,300
You know, maybe I have the 
expectation that the market 

307
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,400
price won't catch up to the 
Redemption price. 

308
00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:53,900
But if it does, then I stand to 
lose a lot of money and the way 

309
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,400
the system is designed is that 
the rates just keep getting 

310
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,000
stronger if it doesn't. 
So it's it's sort of like you 

311
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,600
know, don't fight the FED. 
We have our own version which is

312
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,800
the money God always wins, you 
can hold the price you know high

313
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,600
or low if you want for a while 
but the end result is just going

314
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,200
to be that the net change in the
Redemption price you know the 

315
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,300
peg is going to move even 
Further against you when you try

316
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,500
to hold the market price, I 
still don't fully understand how

317
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:27,900
the Redemption price being 
lowered forces, the market price

318
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,200
to get lower. 
So it creates an expectation 

319
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,700
that the price of lie will be R.
I would be lower in the future. 

320
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:38,500
Why? 
Because the rate is negative. 

321
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:42,200
And so you either, well, you 
either expect that the market 

322
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,900
price will catch up to the rim 
from pricer. 

323
00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:49,100
You don't write if you don't, 
you will just be educated 

324
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,500
because the market price will 
eventually catch up to the 

325
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,700
Redemption price because the 
money got always wins. 

326
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,900
Because at some point the rates 
are so strong. 

327
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,000
That somebody's going to take 
it, right? 

328
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,000
Let's say you ignore the rates. 
Let's say, you're you hold all 

329
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,300
the the Rye. 
Let's say you're the one who 

330
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:10,900
bought Upright a 315 right? 
5% above the peg right now, you 

331
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:15,200
get to sit there and wait as the
the Redemption price gets lower 

332
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,400
and lower. 
And so at first, it was, you 

333
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,500
know, a five percent error. 
Then a fry goes down the 

334
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,000
Redemption price goes down 
another, you know, 15 cents. 

335
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,600
Now, it's a 10 percent error and
so now that rate that was 30% is

336
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,800
now something like double that, 
you know, something like 60%, 

337
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,400
and that process only takes like
with the current like controller

338
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,300
tuning. 
Only like a month. 

339
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,300
Month or two to fully offset a 
gap in the market price by the 

340
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,500
same Gap in the Redemption 
price. 

341
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,700
So you're staring at the rates 
doubling in something like, you 

342
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:54,500
know, a month or two and if the 
initial rates didn't work, maybe

343
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:59,900
the stronger rates will write 
and that process doesn't stop 

344
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,500
until the market returns to 
equilibrium. 

345
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:09,200
So you can take the trade, you 
just might not like how it goes.

346
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,900
You know. 
It's in other words if you're 

347
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:17,000
trying to manipulate the price 
of Rye it should be expensive 

348
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,300
for you. 
If you are trying to cause the 

349
00:22:20,308 --> 00:22:23,600
Redemption price to go up or 
down, you have to do something 

350
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,200
that the market actually 
punishes you to do. 

351
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:31,100
And so everyone else who is 
aligned with stabilizing Ryback 

352
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,800
to its Redemption price since 
the make money And you would 

353
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,200
lose money because at some point
in the future, if, you know, 

354
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,300
right, the market price, does 
eventually go back to, you know,

355
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,000
to 85 or whatever, the Final 
Redemption price is like you 

356
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,500
just lost that whole Delta as a 
rye holder. 

357
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,900
So yeah, I believe that I have 
no problems believing that I 

358
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,600
think that works. 
It's kind of like the gyroscope 

359
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,100
that kind of writes itself, 
right? 

360
00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,100
So basically wobbles more and 
then it wobbles less. 

361
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:01,700
So I think I think I buy that 
part. 

362
00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:05,500
The thing that I don't fully You
understand? 

363
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:11,300
I mean is I mean you have 
articles built-in, right? 

364
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:17,200
So basically clearly the the 
protocol cares about the price 

365
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,100
ratio of Heath to the u.s. 
dollar. 

366
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:28,300
So how so basically it clearly 
cares about that ratio, biet not

367
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:34,200
the value itself. 
So in as how much does this I 

368
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,800
mean that that the u.s. dollar 
is is still influences the 

369
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,300
system, right? 
So basically it's not pegged to 

370
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,700
the u.s. dollar but it is 
somehow correlated, right? 

371
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,400
Yeah. 
This is a thing. 

372
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,000
We've also learned is that right
referencing? 

373
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:54,300
The dollar still makes it a 
dollar denominated asset, you 

374
00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:57,600
know, it has the ability to 
float away from the dollar, go 

375
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:04,000
up, 10% 20% 50, you know or down
the equivalent but it still is 

376
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:08,900
Is subject to the esoteric 
dollar swings in the market, 

377
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,400
right? 
If the Dollar by itself one day 

378
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,300
became stronger or weaker. 
That would you know somewhat 

379
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:20,500
reflect in the Rye trajectory, 
right? 

380
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:24,600
It won't it won't show up in the
Rive market price, probably as 

381
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,800
quickly. 
But it'll you know if the dollar

382
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,800
is strengthening R, I might 
weakened against the dollar. 

383
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,100
If the dollar is weakening R, I 
might strengthened against the 

384
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:37,000
dollar, Okay. 
So basically if you look at the 

385
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,700
decline of the right price from 
three point one four dollars to 

386
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:46,700
currently 2.9 cure. 
So that would that would reflect

387
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:53,600
a strengthening of the dollar 
and weakening of the East price,

388
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,400
right? 
You have to be really careful to

389
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,000
explain Ryan macroeconomic terms
because Ryan is so small that 

390
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,600
the incentives for For Rye 
holders are typically vastly 

391
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,600
greater than any sort, of macro 
economic incentives. 

392
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,300
For example, the greatest price 
change in Rye happened in the 

393
00:25:13,308 --> 00:25:17,000
first three weeks. 
And it was sort of we 

394
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:21,400
effectively sponsored an attack 
on our own system, by offering 

395
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:27,600
flx incentives to write eith LPS
without requiring any sort of 

396
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,600
minting requirement, which now 
most of our liquidity incentives

397
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,300
require is that you also Mint 
arrive at your lping. 

398
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:41,500
What we inadvertently did in the
first three weeks was basically 

399
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,000
pump millions of dollars into 
holding, you know, for people to

400
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,100
whole dry by offering incentives
for the LPS. 

401
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:52,900
And so people minted some rice, 
some people initially did and 

402
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,500
then the rest of them went and 
they bought Rye off the market 

403
00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:57,800
to LPA. 
And then somebody else comes 

404
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,500
along buys that rye off the 
market to LP it and they all, 

405
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,500
you know, pumped up. 
The price of rice. 

406
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:09,400
I think like 10 12, 13 percent 
above the peg, so it started at 

407
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:17,200
3.14, it was like 3.3, you know,
at some point and then it took 

408
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,800
us three weeks, to figure out 
how to fix that. 

409
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,500
And then once we fixed the 
incentive, the you know to 

410
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:29,700
requirement it went back to 
Flat, the flat was around $3 at 

411
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:33,700
that time so much of the you 
know about 5%. 

412
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:41,100
Of the arrived Redemption price.
The Redemption price lowered by 

413
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:44,300
about 5% in those three weeks 
because the rates were like - 

414
00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:49,300
70, the controller was also a 
little bit stronger and we to be

415
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:51,400
absolutely clear like we thought
that people were being 

416
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,500
irrational and in doing that. 
But it turns out because some of

417
00:26:55,508 --> 00:26:59,100
those people, you know, flx 
opened at whatever 1001 it. 

418
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:03,700
Did they were sort of being 
rational in that they were able 

419
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:08,600
to To like play their Ponzi game
and like exit the LP for some of

420
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,500
them before, you know, the the 
price of Rye declined. 

421
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:16,800
And the, you know, the flx that 
they were able to get was more 

422
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,300
than that. 
So long story short, we're 

423
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,600
learning to be more careful 
about how the incentives can 

424
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800
warp. 
The perceptions of how the 

425
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,500
system is working to most people
who are using it. 

426
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:33,500
They sort of know this but to 
somebody who's on the outside, 

427
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,100
you Very easily look at it and 
be like, oh that's the dollar. 

428
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,000
Yeah, I think so basically you 
kind of just screwed it up with 

429
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,100
your own incentives but in a way
the market does this for you all

430
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:50,300
the time, right? 
So basically if you actually 

431
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,200
have to rely on fairly sensitive
Market feedback, kind of the all

432
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,200
the externalities that you can't
price in kind of have an effect 

433
00:27:59,200 --> 00:27:59,900
on me. 
Anyway. 

434
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:03,600
So for instance, currently if 
you hold, he's there. 

435
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,200
Fairly lucrative things, you can
do with it at zero risk. 

436
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,200
So basically kind of steak it 
for instance, and that gives you

437
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,300
like a guaranteed even if you 
liquids case, like gives you 

438
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,500
like a guaranteed like four or 
five percent. 

439
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,700
So basically if you have 
anything less, if you stand to 

440
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:24,400
make anything less than that, 
does your mechanism still work 

441
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,900
or is it kind of screwed by 
that? 

442
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,600
So I don't think any of these 
things, screw the mechanism to 

443
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,600
be totally clear. 
Rye works with a negative twenty

444
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,500
percent rate forever, right? 
Works with a plus 20% rate 

445
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:42,500
forever. 
Right? 

446
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:46,500
Works with, you know, 0% rate 
forever like okay fat. 

447
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,200
But I mean, is it attractive to 
use? 

448
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,000
Yeah, that's a different 
question. 

449
00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000
Because, you know, you could 
Attractive to, who is a good 

450
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:05,200
question, right? 
So like for people who have eith

451
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,200
and who have the opportunity to,
you know, get liquid staking 

452
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,700
returns of whatever 45 percent, 
as he said, they would possibly 

453
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:21,100
need you more incentive to men. 
Try and so, the existence of 

454
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:23,500
stake teeth in the ecosystem, 
and the fact that ride does not 

455
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,900
accept steaky, this collateral 
creates an opportunity cost for 

456
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,900
Anybody depositing eith into the
rice system and so that makes it

457
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:33,200
so that they might want to get 
paid more to do so. 

458
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,700
And so they might prefer a 
negative rate in this sense, 

459
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:41,400
rise very like Farm to Table in 
terms of its ability. 

460
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,200
Like you know exactly where your
yield is coming from like your 

461
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,700
yield is coming from the Rye 
holders, who are paying you to 

462
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,000
Mint, you know, right against 
your teeth. 

463
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:55,700
If the rate is higher, that 
means the eith depositors are 

464
00:29:55,708 --> 00:29:59,000
demanding more. 
If the rate is more - right? 

465
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:05,300
And if the rate is positive, 
that means The Ether depositing,

466
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:07,700
right? 
Mentors are actually paying two 

467
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:11,600
men try. 
So it balances the supply and 

468
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,800
demand for the asset itself. 
Yeah, I understand. 

469
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,300
I mean I understand that 
basically doesn't make or 

470
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:19,900
destroy money. 
I totally get this. 

471
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,500
It's a conservative system and 
that in that sense. 

472
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:25,600
But basically, on the flip side 
it means currently you have to 

473
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,900
pay like 14 and a half. 
Percent to actually hold right. 

474
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,900
Which seems unattractive to me. 
So who are the people who 

475
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:38,700
actually whole Drive? 
Yeah, it's a good question and 

476
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:41,000
Rise market cap is obviously 
shrunk a lot. 

477
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,300
Having it you know, only backed 
by eith means that when youth 

478
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:50,100
goes down, your economic 
bandwidth is also reduced and 

479
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:54,700
you know, the market cap, sort 
of shrinks necessarily there's 

480
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,900
about 15 ish million Rai 
outstanding. 

481
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,800
The people holding it are 
typically either lping it or 

482
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,800
dowse that want to be holding 
it. 

483
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:09,300
That was until recently one of 
the largest holders but the 

484
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:12,700
negative rates, you know, cause 
them to sell. 

485
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:21,700
And so you know, it's not going 
to be like rise and going to be 

486
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:24,700
friendliest towards the largest 
group of people, it's going to 

487
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:26,700
be friendly as for the people 
who care the most about 

488
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:31,500
decentralization, right? 
So it's if you, if you SDC works

489
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:34,500
for you, if you're not worried 
about, you know, blacklisting or

490
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:37,800
having your collateral, A class 
that then like you know you SEC 

491
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:44,700
or die could work for you if you
care a lot about, you know, the 

492
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:48,700
the collateral type and you also
want to know exactly like have 

493
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:52,700
some degree of predictability in
the trajectory then R I might be

494
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:56,000
for you. 
So you mentioned for the week 

495
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,800
you mentioned I think you both 
mentioned State, 'if I guess 

496
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,700
accepting steak Eve as 
collateral would undermine a bit

497
00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:08,300
right there. 
What if trustless Nest nature? 

498
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:12,000
No, because you can have like, 
some dependency on our lighter 

499
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,100
down stuff. 
But, of course, at the same 

500
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:17,600
time, it would make it like, 
much more attractive to like 

501
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,300
Min. 
Try is like, how do you think 

502
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:22,100
about that? 
Is this something that like, if 

503
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:27,100
you like, definitely not or 
maybe it's on point used to 

504
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,500
think about that? 
Now, we don't think about that, 

505
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,900
we already Froze, all of the 
collateral, so R, I can only 

506
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:37,200
ever be backed by Eve. 
We actually can't change that 

507
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,600
anymore. 
I think it's teeth is good 

508
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,900
collateral. 
It might not be good for what 

509
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:47,300
we're trying to do with Rye, 
which is just try to minimize 

510
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:52,300
the surface area for a tax and 
like having steak teeth as a 

511
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:56,700
collateral type makes it, you 
know, you somewhat have to be 

512
00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:59,100
dependent on leidos governance 
like King. 

513
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,800
Well and I'm not screwing 
anything up, or having any sort 

514
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,100
of like a tax or hacks, or 
existential, you know threats. 

515
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,900
Whereas when you only use ethos 
collateral, you have the, you 

516
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,900
know, as long as the theorems 
working seemingly it'll be okay.

517
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:20,500
So less dependency, of course, 
it could drive more growth, 

518
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,800
personally. 
I think that a better 

519
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,700
opportunity is to just make more
Rye like things I don't think. 

520
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,100
That Rai will be the last Rye 
like thing. 

521
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,700
I think for ride to work, there 
will be more. 

522
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:36,100
I like things and by R, I like 
things. 

523
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:40,000
I just mean stable coins that 
aren't necessarily pegged to the

524
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,700
dollar stable coins that have 
mechanisms that stabilize 

525
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,300
themselves whether their 
controller works exactly. 

526
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:51,000
Like rise or not is sort of an 
optimization problem, you know, 

527
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,500
deal with later, once you've 
already decided to not have a 

528
00:33:54,508 --> 00:33:57,400
peg that's already, you know, 
the first step. 

529
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,900
So I think There could be more 
Rye like systems. 

530
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:04,400
We might even help launch them 
or contribute to launching them 

531
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,300
on other, you know, even on 
layer 2 is that have like steak 

532
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,500
teeth and more forms of 
collateral. 

533
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:14,100
It was, it was pretty expensive 
to have lots of forms of 

534
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:16,900
collateral on ethereum last 
summer to, because the gas was 

535
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:19,900
so high and you need to spend 
gas for all the price weeds and 

536
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,199
things. 
Yeah. 

537
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:26,500
So one thing I'm curious about 
about, you know, if we guards to

538
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:30,500
the right price, right? 
So right price I started at 3.14

539
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:38,800
now is 2.9 to or something like 
that, like, in the long run, 

540
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:47,000
like what would I mean, could it
go to $1 or $5 or like in, what 

541
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,100
would determine that? 
Like if it let's say if I was 

542
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:54,699
like, someone is like, I want to
hold, you know, some acid in you

543
00:34:54,699 --> 00:35:00,000
know, like crypto stable coin 
and You know, I would like to 

544
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,000
have it there for like five 
years and you know, not have to 

545
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,600
worry about it and maybe maybe 
if the dollar like I don't know.

546
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,100
Hyper-inflated some point 
probably not going to have next 

547
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:15,400
five years but some point, I 
guess, you know like not that to

548
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,700
happen with, you know, like to 
be protected from that. 

549
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:27,600
It's right solution for this. 
I would say it depends stability

550
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,700
is really in the eye of the 
beholder. 

551
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,200
If you think that like in five 
years, the dollar is still a 

552
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,700
dollar than, like, you're going 
to want dollar stable coins. 

553
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,300
It's rise weird for me because 
people are, like, I don't get 

554
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:43,000
it, I don't understand. 
It's like long-term price 

555
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,600
trajectory, you know, and I'm 
like, I perfectly understand. 

556
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,500
Its long-term, you know, price 
trajectory. 

557
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,900
I just don't understand the 
intermediate Market things. 

558
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,100
Might have to happen to move it 
around, like, I can perfectly 

559
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,300
predict what the ride Redemption
price will do from the market 

560
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:04,600
activity, right? 
If you want to make Raya dollar 

561
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,600
that's easy, simply hold it 
above the peg for a couple years

562
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,700
and it'll get there, you know, 
it will devalue itself 30 

563
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:14,700
percent 40 percent every year we
have this funny conversation on 

564
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:16,300
Twitter. 
I was like should be rebase 

565
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,400
tried to a dollar. 
Right metallic think. 

566
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,000
So a couple other people chimed 
in and they think so Eric Wall 

567
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,900
was mad at us. 
Who's calling Ryan? 

568
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,900
Money. 
And we were like, yeah, well, 

569
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:28,100
you know what? 
We are autistic, and we can stay

570
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:30,500
autistic longer than you can 
stay retarded. 

571
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,400
So, you know, what's the 
argument for not rebasing ride 

572
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,800
to a dollar? 
Why didn't we start it at a 

573
00:36:35,808 --> 00:36:37,200
dollar in the first place, 
right? 

574
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,000
And the, the point is that Ryan 
is not mean, reverting. 

575
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,700
It doesn't actually care about 
what it's like initial starting 

576
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:48,000
point is so what might happen if
R I started at a dollar is that 

577
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,100
it could like Drop to 95 cents 
and then people would buy it 

578
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:53,600
because they think that that 
would make it supposed to go 

579
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,200
back to Dollar at the dollar 
stable coin in like that's not 

580
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,300
how it works. 
In fact, by buying Rye, you 

581
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:04,200
know, at 94, like if the 
Redemption price is 95 cents, 

582
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:06,400
like you might make it go down 
faster. 

583
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,200
So rise designed once again, to 
to, like be predictable in terms

584
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,000
of how it responds to the 
market. 

585
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:23,100
And so if over five years you 
think, you know, the like the 

586
00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:27,200
market is just Like always above
the right markets, always above 

587
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,100
the peg, then the Redemption 
price always going to go down 

588
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,800
and it's going to slowly devalue
in the flip side of that. 

589
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:38,400
Let's say we get to the 
hyperinflation scenario, people 

590
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,600
like to talk about this. 
The thing that I would expect to

591
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,000
happen is that right? 
I would roughly be in 

592
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,700
equilibrium with the rates in 
the ecosystem to borrow against 

593
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:53,900
either. 
So I would be surprised in the 

594
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,400
Inflation scenario where we 
expect dot like the dollar to 

595
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,500
drop, you know, 5075 whatever 
percent over the course of a 

596
00:38:02,508 --> 00:38:03,500
year. 
Maybe more. 

597
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:08,000
If the rates to Borrowed I 
weren't like 10, 20. 

598
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,200
You know the stability, if he 
wasn't like 10, 20 percent 

599
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200
because in theory emit should 
deep egg, right? 

600
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,700
They should have to raise the 
stability for you to keep die 

601
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:21,700
from Deep egging and likewise 
you know everywhere else in the 

602
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:23,800
ecosystem we should see like 
pretty high. 

603
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,100
Hi, borrow rates against ether 
for dollar-denominated assets. 

604
00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:31,300
So I would expect ride to 
roughly be in equilibrium with 

605
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:35,900
those dollar-denominated. 
The debt rates debt, interest 

606
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:38,200
rates. 
So is that going to completely 

607
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,900
offset hyperinflation? 
I don't think so what. 

608
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:45,100
It's somewhat offset. 
Hyperinflation seems possible. 

609
00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:50,200
Maybe even likely okay. 
But like you know you said sort 

610
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,800
of like okay, you know, right. 
I reflect the this the market of

611
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,700
Ryan the trading and but like 
let's say in the Hindi example 

612
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,900
of me like okay I just want to 
have some sort of decentralized 

613
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:05,500
crypto you know stable coin. 
Like I have no idea of like or 

614
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:07,700
people going to be is it going 
to be above the peg? 

615
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:11,700
Blow the peg like like zero 
clue, Rhino interest in it 

616
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:12,300
either? 
Right? 

617
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:13,700
Maybe I just want to hold this 
thing. 

618
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,000
So then that seem that seems to 
I mean because if you actually 

619
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,500
look at the price chart since 
rise, existed, it looks pretty 

620
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:23,500
good, right? 
It looks pretty stable, right. 

621
00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:27,400
It's Really been like okay 3.1 
2.9, doesn't matter, right? 

622
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,200
Like that's close enough like 
over an extended time, but of 

623
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,700
course, if you don't say like, 
oh, maybe goes to the dollar or 

624
00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:37,700
like, you know, then that that's
like a very different matters. 

625
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:42,200
So I'm like, wondering a little 
bit about that of like, how well

626
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,100
it, like, Deserves because in 
the end people still want that 

627
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,500
kind of predictability with a 
stable coin, right? 

628
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:53,600
They want to know that it's 
going to be worth even maybe 

629
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,300
it's relative to the dollar. 
Let's ignore the hyperinflation 

630
00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:59,300
scenario, but they want to know 
that kind of okay, year from 

631
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:01,000
now, it's worth a similar 
amount. 

632
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,100
I think that's like the 
fundamental goal of like all 

633
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:09,800
currencies ever right? 
Is that like you want them to be

634
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,900
stable relative to like you're 
purchasing power or like that 

635
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:16,700
the stuff that you buy 
regularly, you know, your toilet

636
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:18,700
paper and cheeseburger is not 
like why we set up this 

637
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:21,900
Consumer, Price Index to try and
track it and like that's what 

638
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:28,000
our inflation metric comes from.
Like the the short answer is 

639
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,600
that, like if you only want to 
check on Ryan, every five years 

640
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,100
it's probably not set up right 
for that for you right now. 

641
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:41,800
It more because of the response,
time of the controller, being on

642
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,400
the order of like, a few months,
you kind of have to pay 

643
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,900
attention to it with a little 
bit more frequency than that. 

644
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:52,400
There are other controller 
setups that you could do that 

645
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,500
change the rate much more slowly
that Could be more friendly for 

646
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:58,300
people to only check in every 
couple of years. 

647
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:03,300
For example, the cool thing 
about Rye is that in the 

648
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:06,500
meantime, it tells you exactly 
what it's going to do. 

649
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:11,000
So like, it's not like the FED, 
it doesn't Bluff, you know, when

650
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,100
the Rye has a certain rate, it 
does what it says, right? 

651
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:20,300
So if you can pay attention to 
it, you know it's fairly easy to

652
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:23,700
follow the instructions and do 
what it tells you to in the 

653
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:25,700
sense that when the rates are 
R+. 

654
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:29,100
It's saying hello, if you whole 
dry, you know, you'll probably 

655
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:31,000
make some money and help like 
hello. 

656
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000
If the rates are - like, if you 
sell rye and wait and then by 

657
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200
back later, like you also might 
make some money, you know, the 

658
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,000
protocol makes very clear to 
add, it's not Financial advice 

659
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,500
the tag to all of the protocol 
statements but you get the idea.

660
00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:50,300
So I mean maybe that's talk 
about the things that are still 

661
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:52,700
had governed, right? 
So basically there's the flx 

662
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,900
token that you touch upon 
briefly earlier And, and you 

663
00:41:55,900 --> 00:42:00,200
just set that you made it firmly
single collateral. 

664
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,300
So we see no other forms of 
Creator can ever be introduced 

665
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,900
for this form of Rye. 
So what does f at X currently 

666
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:10,300
actually govern? 
Yeah. 

667
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:12,900
Flx governs. 
A couple things that governs the

668
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:18,900
controller parameters oracle's 
and like a couple other sort of 

669
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:24,000
just infrastructure pieces like 
the gas Oracle for the Pinger 

670
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,700
Bots you know to make sure that 
the price feeds are updated. 

671
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:32,000
We like to. 
We have this meme called on 

672
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,800
governance, right? 
And the idea is that we just 

673
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,800
want to progressively remove 
governance over aspects of the 

674
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,200
protocol. 
We want to do this to make it 

675
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,000
harder for people to mess with 
it including ourselves. 

676
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,600
We also just want to have pure 
meetings fewer moving Parts 

677
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:53,000
fewer opportunities for human 
corruption. 

678
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,900
So we want to take, we want to 
automate the controller as much 

679
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:02,200
as possible. 
So far, you know, we don't 

680
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,400
update the rates directly. 
We only update the parameters 

681
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,700
that automatically update the 
rates and so we're able to To 

682
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:14,000
have the controller discussions 
you know more more slowly like 

683
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,400
we've run this thing in 
production for a year and a half

684
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,200
we rent it and P only form for a
year then we added the integral 

685
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:26,000
controller, about six months ago
we just you know publish our 

686
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,100
results of that experiment. 
We're trying to figure out what 

687
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:31,400
to do next. 
So we're still in the process of

688
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,600
figuring out how to design the 
controller so that we can not 

689
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,200
mess with it for a really long 
time and we're learning, what? 

690
00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:43,600
What That means to us because 
the ultimate goal is to remove 

691
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,300
control. 
Re the price oracle's. 

692
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:51,600
The system depends on chain link
which is not quite decentralized

693
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:57,700
and we are adding backup 
oracle's that rely on chain to 

694
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:01,400
Ops that we could quick to 
switch to easily through the 

695
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,300
governance. 
We have a sort of like forkel 

696
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:07,000
whitelist and then you can 
switch between the oracles 

697
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,300
quickly, but adding something to
the white list takes a long 

698
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:11,700
time. 
I'm yeah, but the goal of all of

699
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:13,800
our meetings is to have fewer 
meetings. 

700
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,400
So, we discuss the things that 
we want to remove control over 

701
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,700
and then we progressively remove
control. 

702
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:21,800
It is, how much is the flx 
token? 

703
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Like the mkr token. 
So basically the MCAT open kind 

704
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,600
of acts as a lender of Last 
Resort, right? 

705
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,500
So does flx have a similar 
mechanism? 

706
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,600
Yeah. 
Flx has that mechanism built 

707
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,200
into. 
If you know, Rye becomes under 

708
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,300
collateralized, then in the same
way that I would. 

709
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,600
They both basically become algo 
Stables backed by printing their

710
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:51,200
governance token. 
All their reserves are met but 

711
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,200
hopefully neither one goes under
collateralized. 

712
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:58,800
You know, too much. 
That that's a big problem in 

713
00:44:58,808 --> 00:45:02,100
there. 
Aren't people to step in to, you

714
00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:07,900
know, help balance the books. 
So is is there is there also a 

715
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:13,000
revenue side to F is the same as
maker does a buyback and burning

716
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,300
of the tokens with the Surplus? 
Once it exceeds a certain 

717
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:18,700
threshold in the Surplus 
treasury of the system? 

718
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:23,400
Make sure that it has enough 
money to pay for Bots and 

719
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,400
everything, the protocol makes 
money from stability fee and 

720
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,300
liquidations. 
And how is this ability fee set?

721
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,900
Because in maker that says that 
some sort of committee having no

722
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:40,600
that does this. 
Yeah, we just said it to, I 

723
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,000
think 2%. 
I think it's it might be locked 

724
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:49,000
in Forever. 
The goal is to not change it. 

725
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,300
We don't actually want to change
the stability fee. 

726
00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:55,700
This ability is supposed to 
reflect the risk of the 

727
00:45:55,700 --> 00:46:01,200
collateral maker sort of uses it
as a monetary policy tool. 

728
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:04,100
I don't think that makes a lot 
of sense. 

729
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,100
I think, you know, the 
Redemption price is well, 

730
00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:09,000
obviously, I think that the 
Redemption press is better to 

731
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,400
use for that. 
And having two, knobs Is Not 

732
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,600
Great to do that. 
So you just fix one of the 

733
00:46:14,607 --> 00:46:16,900
knobs. 
Stability for you and then play 

734
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,400
with the other one. 
Yeah, but I mean, make a did the

735
00:46:19,408 --> 00:46:23,000
exact Converse, right? 
They also only have one one knob

736
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,500
because they fixed the 
Redemption price to 1.so, 

737
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,400
basically. 
It's kind of like, yeah. 

738
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,800
So it's talk about that. 
It's to me, it's exactly 

739
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,600
equivalent in terms of 
basically, how much control you 

740
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,700
have over the system. 
Hmm. 

741
00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:39,700
Why did ruin proposed that they 
don't Peg died to a dollar 

742
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,600
anymore in the Forum last week? 
Interesting question to mean, 

743
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:45,400
they're kind of the mean, that's
a really good. 

744
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:47,500
Good question. 
I mean, why don't you answer 

745
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:50,300
your phone, maybe for people who
haven't read that post, maybe, 

746
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:55,600
maybe can either of you give 
some context about like, you 

747
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,300
know, what was written in the 
post and yeah sure. 

748
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,000
So basically This Tornado cash 
u.s. 

749
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,600
DC sanction. 
So when tornado cash was 

750
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,800
sanctioned USD. 
See also went and froze, all the

751
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,400
USC. 
See in those contracts that made

752
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,000
a little bit of a wake-up call 
for everybody else who has u.s. 

753
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,500
DC. 
Their contract that could 

754
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:22,400
potentially be censored or, you 
know, Frozen and, and die has. 

755
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,100
I think the most so like six 
billion USD Seas or something 

756
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:30,100
like that, right? 
So ruin looks at this and is 

757
00:47:30,100 --> 00:47:32,800
like, huh? 
We need some way of reducing our

758
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:38,000
exposure to us, DC, and he looks
at the knobs and he concludes 

759
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,500
that the most effective knob 
that we have to use, is to 

760
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:45,300
actually reduce the Redemption 
price over time. 

761
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,000
I'm slowly. 
Now they could, of course, they 

762
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,900
don't need to use our sort of 
Target rate feedback mechanism 

763
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:54,700
that could just manually set 
like a negative half percent 

764
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:58,100
rate to start with or 1% rate to
start with, right? 

765
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,000
And that could apply to all the 
dye and then what that makes it 

766
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,900
as that. 
It's a less attractive you know,

767
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:07,600
for you to meant potentially 
against us DC. 

768
00:48:10,900 --> 00:48:17,000
And so yeah that's one of their 
tools to reduce Die demand and 

769
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,400
to reduce the u.s. 
DC driven by demand. 

770
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:26,100
And so, in the aftermath of 
this, it's been pretty funny 

771
00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:30,600
because Nikolai has been there 
in the forums and the Discord 

772
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,800
and I've been there and it's 
like really funny because Rye, 

773
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,900
which was sort of shit on or, 
you know, thought to be this 

774
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:45,500
like stupid thing, that no one 
should care about is, like, the 

775
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,700
whole research plan for their 
future, right? 

776
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,100
Like, had we not done, right? 
Like, everyone would be sitting 

777
00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:55,800
there, twiddling their thumbs? 
Thinking ooh, - rates, like, 

778
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,200
what do we do? 
No one's done it before it 

779
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,400
sounds scary. 
I don't know, right. 

780
00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:03,000
But because we've done - rates 
even in, you know, the 

781
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,900
simplified Pi model that we did 
it, it's like at least there's 

782
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:13,100
an example that you can point to
and, you know, look and and see 

783
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:18,100
something that for the most part
Works to stabilize and use that 

784
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:20,000
as a direction. 
And the sort of reflects the 

785
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,600
like three phases everyone goes 
through when they won the 

786
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,000
encounter Rye. 
They start out and they're like,

787
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,100
man, Rai. 
This thing is weird. 

788
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:29,800
I don't know how it works. 
I don't want it. 

789
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:32,400
I'm like the dollars and then 
they learn a little bit more and

790
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,200
they're like, oh I get it, it 
stabilizes itself using the tag 

791
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,100
like that, that kind of makes 
sense, but it's also like kind 

792
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:42,100
of small and weird and I don't 
know if I want it and then they 

793
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:43,100
learn a little bit more in 
there. 

794
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:47,300
Like I finally understand why 
the system is designed like this

795
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,300
and I don't understand why 
everything isn't designed like 

796
00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:57,100
this and that LT seems to be 
coming true with die die. 

797
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,400
You know, they bit The Poisoned 
Apple of u.s. 

798
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,500
DC and now 80% of it is u.s. 
DC backed. 

799
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:05,100
And the after side, which is 
what to do about it. 

800
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,500
It's almost a civil war because 
all the people who have jobs 

801
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:12,800
that depend on the u.s. 
DC and the rwi stuff like are 

802
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:19,400
going to try to keep the system 
that way and so I don't know how

803
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,800
this is going to unfold, but 
it's I'm definitely on. 

804
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:30,000
MD centralist, which is about 
trying to Reclaim monetary 

805
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,500
sovereignty Ford I have died. 
Be what the you know, maker 

806
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:37,200
holders and die. 
People want it to be and not 

807
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,300
have it always necessarily be a 
dollar if being a dollar adds 

808
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:44,600
too much risk. 
Yeah, I agree. 

809
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:49,100
Do you think people should have 
been alarmed earlier by the fact

810
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:53,400
that so much of dyes actually 
backed by us dce? 

811
00:50:54,100 --> 00:50:56,800
Do you think we should never 
have gotten to this point where 

812
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,100
it's like 80%? 
That's hard to say. 

813
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,600
I think maker made the pragmatic
decisions. 

814
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,500
Based on the information they 
had at the time. 

815
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,400
I think it would have been very 
hard for them to decide to not 

816
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:10,200
use the u.s. 
DC. 

817
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:16,400
And I for the last couple of 
years, I think that given the 

818
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,400
fact that we've gone and done 
this research, you know, and 

819
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,100
sort of prove that you can have 
negative rates without 

820
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:27,600
destroying your whole system. 
You rent it and prod for almost 

821
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,500
two years. 
I think they're in a much 

822
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:31,000
better. 
Place the try and make this 

823
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,300
decision now and then to be 
clear. 

824
00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:37,400
The thing is going to unroll 
over like several years, ruin is

825
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,100
sort of only talking about it 
now to get people prepared for 

826
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:44,400
it. 
And we are excited about this 

827
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,700
because it means more people 
will learn about Rye, learn 

828
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:51,000
about the trf, M, learn about on
Peg, you know, stable coins or 

829
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,200
controlled Peg, stable coins and
we can sort of migrate 

830
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,700
intellectually away from the 
barren Wasteland of dollars. 

831
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:05,000
Stable coin, dominance forever. 
Maybe if we zoom out a little 

832
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:10,000
bit. 
So if you look at the demand for

833
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,900
for die off or daughter, you 
know, me Xavier coins in 

834
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,200
general. 
So when people are crypto long, 

835
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,900
there's always human, right? 
So basically, but this kind of 

836
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:23,900
flips when people are crypto 
short, right? 

837
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:28,000
So they don't want to use crypto
for collateral. 

838
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,600
So, basically, in in times like 
these, where people generally 

839
00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:38,100
And to be crypto short, do you 
think it's a, it's a bigger 

840
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,900
bigger problem too, kind of to 
find people to Mint die or to 

841
00:52:44,900 --> 00:52:49,000
hold die. 
I don't know. 

842
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,400
I mean, when, when crypto goes 
down, most of the stable coins 

843
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,000
that use debt leverage to back 
them will go down as well. 

844
00:52:58,100 --> 00:53:02,900
It seems prudent to be able to 
impose negative rates because 

845
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,000
more people are going to want to
hold the stable coins. 

846
00:53:05,300 --> 00:53:07,300
Then people are going to want to
take down debt. 

847
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,500
You have a very basic supply and
demand equation there. 

848
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,100
And so you have to balance it by
having some sort of subsidy and 

849
00:53:14,100 --> 00:53:16,900
incentive, for the people who 
are missing and some sort of 

850
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:22,700
Also, the people who are holding
and so negative rates are the 

851
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:27,300
way you do that. 
So, yeah, I think it makes 

852
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:31,100
sense. 
I don't know what the like to 

853
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:35,800
zoom out again, right? 
Like I don't think the end game 

854
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,700
forever is dollar-denominated 
assets. 

855
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:43,900
I think that in time crypto, 
will probably make its own price

856
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:47,700
indexes in time crypto. 
We'll probably You know, use 

857
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:51,200
some other standards besides, 
you know, basket of Fiat 

858
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:56,300
currencies or something. 
For now, we use the USD 

859
00:53:56,300 --> 00:54:00,700
reference for Rye because it's 
easy, it's liquid, you know, 

860
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:04,600
it's relatively it's, you know, 
still today, the most stable 

861
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,400
thing that we can use as a 
reference, there are some plans 

862
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:11,800
not anything in motion right 
now, but things that we could 

863
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,800
potentially use to move off of 
the dollar if we wanted in, you 

864
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,400
know, over the course of 10 
years. something, if you wanted 

865
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:23,400
to switch to some other 
reference asset, What kind of 

866
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,800
reference as it would that be? 
I mean, I mean basically some 

867
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,700
sort of basket but how would 
that be constructed and don't 

868
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:31,100
you need governance for that 
again? 

869
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,600
Yes. 
And that's why we haven't done 

870
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,700
it. 
The thing. 

871
00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:41,700
Like I don't really like that 
that problem because it's messy 

872
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:44,800
and it deals with a lot of 
factors that are constantly in 

873
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,700
flux. 
Like you know, when I said 

874
00:54:47,700 --> 00:54:49,500
earlier stability is in the eye 
of the beholder, Brian. 

875
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:52,000
You were like I want to hold 
something for five years and 

876
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,500
then come back. 
And it's like fine, well, you 

877
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:56,800
want it to be fine relative to 
the stuff that you want to buy 

878
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,100
in five years. 
So, if you could give me an 

879
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:02,100
itemized list right now of 
everything that you want to buy 

880
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:07,000
in five years, you know? 
Like that's the kind of thing 

881
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,400
where it's like, yeah, things 
change, you know, we don't know 

882
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:11,900
exactly what the future will 
look like. 

883
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:15,400
We don't know what consumption 
will look like and so there's 

884
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:20,300
sort of You know, the idea of 
this reference basket index 

885
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:22,400
thing. 
Can you know, CPI, whatever, 

886
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,500
we'll sort of always have to be 
a governing process? 

887
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,100
Yeah, I mean I think gonna 
high-level right? 

888
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:35,200
I think what the tornado cash. 
Said, you know this tornado cash

889
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,900
sanctions and I guess you can 
sort of interpret this in 

890
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:41,900
different ways, you know, maybe 
to some extent but like I don't 

891
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:45,000
know, North Korea and preventing
they get some money and stuff 

892
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,100
like that. 
But I think on another level 

893
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:53,700
it's also just the government 
really not liking this crypto 

894
00:55:53,700 --> 00:55:57,000
thing, right? 
And you really not liking losing

895
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,300
control, right? 
And basically saying like, Okay,

896
00:56:00,300 --> 00:56:02,800
we're going to try to like crack
down on this. 

897
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:09,700
And I think if you see something
like maker and I mean, you see 

898
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:16,200
is like such an obvious Avenue. 
So I think if that becomes 

899
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,100
something that's like, I mean in
the end, right? 

900
00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:22,300
Like, if you're gonna have some 
stable coin that's supposed to 

901
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:26,900
be, you know, widely used by 
people and that's supposed to be

902
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:31,000
actually like neutral and, you 
know, you can use it 

903
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,000
anonymously, don't have to do 
kyc. 

904
00:56:33,100 --> 00:56:37,200
You can use it across the world 
that's just doesn't want that. 

905
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,700
You just cannot have you SEC and
this-- knocking. 

906
00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:44,400
If I like it has to be actually 
decentralized. 

907
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:50,200
Yeah, I believe that. 
I want to see more 

908
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,900
decentralized, stable coins, 
more things that move away from 

909
00:56:53,900 --> 00:56:57,400
USD. 
See dominance u.s. 

910
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,200
DC is clutter me. 
That's why I actually, you know,

911
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:04,200
people who are criticizing 
Care-A-Lot and of course that 

912
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,700
turned out to be correct in 
retrospective. 

913
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:11,800
But I always found that the 
criticism of all, it's not that 

914
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,500
decentralized, you know, 
compared to make your main like 

915
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,600
no sense at all. 
Yeah, there's points of 

916
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,700
centralization wherever you look
You know, the maker has oracle's

917
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:24,400
that are kind of centralized 
maker has the usec collateral, 

918
00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:28,700
right? 
Terra had, I mean, the lfg fund 

919
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:31,300
was a multisig That was supposed
to be backing. 

920
00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:34,800
It didn't have any sort of like,
on chain algorithmic backing. 

921
00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:37,700
They just decided when to back 
it. 

922
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:41,700
And so there's all sorts of like
information asymmetries, like, 

923
00:57:41,700 --> 00:57:43,900
hey, if you're close to them and
you know, that they're out of 

924
00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:46,000
money, you should short the shit
out of you st. 

925
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,100
Immediately, right? 
Like That's the kind of thing 

926
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,600
that, you know, we try to avoid 
and decentralized systems. 

927
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:59,200
So yeah, I think, I think the 
better criticism of Tara was the

928
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,300
one where vitalik blogged about 
it and also mentioned dry as an 

929
00:58:02,308 --> 00:58:06,000
example, because he talks about 
how if you're stable coin, can't

930
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,200
unwind in a like down market, 
like you were saying, you know, 

931
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,400
if youth crashes, everything's 
going down, like if you're 

932
00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:15,800
stable coin, like can't unwind, 
it's basically a Ponzi scheme, 

933
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:17,200
right? 
You're going to have some people

934
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,000
sitting there at the end of it 
like I would like my money. 

935
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,400
I would you know, I want to exit
and if they can't exit, then 

936
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,700
you, you know, didn't design 
your system. 

937
00:58:25,700 --> 00:58:29,200
To be very friendly to those 
people to exit which you know, 

938
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:31,800
systems that typically leave 
some people hanging or called 

939
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,900
ponzi's. 
Do you think that he's a future 

940
00:58:34,900 --> 00:58:39,000
for, you know, algorithmic 
stable coins that are not backed

941
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,900
or is this? 
Do you think it you're playing 

942
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:46,700
with fire, right? 
Like you can get shorted 20, you

943
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:51,100
know, even if your 80% backdoor 
90% back to write the, the 

944
00:58:51,100 --> 00:58:55,200
window of opportunity is smaller
but the risk is always present, 

945
00:58:55,300 --> 00:58:58,500
even things like maker and Rye, 
could in theory, become algo 

946
00:58:58,500 --> 00:59:01,900
Stables, if some Black Swan 
event hits, and they become, you

947
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:06,200
know, undercapitalized, you 
know, under collateralize, then 

948
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:09,500
there's less money, backing them
than their have in debt. 

949
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,700
So, they need to recruit People 
who believe in them and if there

950
00:59:12,700 --> 00:59:16,600
aren't any then you know, some 
people are going to get a 

951
00:59:16,607 --> 00:59:19,900
haircut, that's how the systems 
were designed. 

952
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,600
So they try to make the haircut 
process, you know, transparent 

953
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,300
Fair equal, right? 
It's not like you lose 

954
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:31,700
everything, it's like you might 
lose whatever, you know, went 

955
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:33,800
wrong, whatever. 
Degree of under 

956
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,900
collateralization, you are as 
short of shared by everybody, if

957
00:59:36,900 --> 00:59:40,900
it's 5% for example, 10%. 
But that's a huge difference, 

958
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,400
right? 
Mean basically having like an 

959
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,000
orderly shutdown even if it 
means everyone gets like a 10% 

960
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,200
haircut. 
That's completely different to 

961
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,000
the the situation where the 
person first person to cash out 

962
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,400
gets their entire money back and
you know, the, the, the 20th 

963
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,800
person doesn't. 
So I mean, this is. 

964
00:59:59,900 --> 01:00:01,500
Yeah. 
So I think this kind of. 

965
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,300
Yeah. 
So basically I'm totally with 

966
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:10,500
the ordered shutdown process. 
We really fought a losing battle

967
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,400
of those of us. 
Care to try and not throw the 

968
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,700
algo. 
Stable term out with the bath 

969
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:19,300
water, you know? 
The because people are, like, 

970
01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:22,100
I'll go Stables a bad word now, 
right? 

971
01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:25,600
And it's like, I used to call 
Raya kind of algo stable. 

972
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,200
It's how, you know, has an 
algorithm that stabilizes it, 

973
01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:32,900
but now I can't. 
Now we have to, you know, make 

974
01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:36,600
sure that like all we can do is 
try to explain that the bad 

975
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,200
thing, wasn't actually the algo.
It was the under collateralized 

976
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:46,300
part Like Luna didn't hold the 
Luna like that, you use to meant

977
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:49,200
UST in a reserve somewhere. 
It wasn't a CD P. 

978
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,500
They lit it on fire. 
You know, that. 

979
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,000
So there was no reserves, the, 
the reserves was backed by the, 

980
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,800
you know, future printing 
against the Luna token and 

981
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,200
selling it. 
And so as soon as the Luna 

982
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,800
demand, 120 the UST demand 10 
and the whole thing went to 0, 

983
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:11,100
so that's not great having 
collateral in your system is 

984
01:01:11,900 --> 01:01:14,000
Very helpful for protecting and 
systems like that. 

985
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,700
We want the regulators and the 
public to know the difference 

986
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,700
and so far, that's, you know, 
Matt Reading off of the algo 

987
01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:22,200
stable Hill and onto the over 
collateralized Hill. 

988
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,100
So, hopefully you guys can help 
with that narrative. 

989
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:31,000
Yeah, no. 
I mean I think obviously Tara 

990
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,100
went horribly wrong and UST went
horribly wrong and it was like, 

991
01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:37,100
tragic how, you know, lots of 
people, lots of money. 

992
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,500
It's just that if you look at 
the, I mean maker, right? 

993
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:48,700
Well, maker struggle to scale, 
more struggled, more scaling 

994
01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:52,600
than you is T. 
And the only way they actually 

995
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,400
got the scaling is by adding 
this like centralized, you know,

996
01:01:56,500 --> 01:02:02,500
basically USD coin to it, right?
So if in you know, I mean you 

997
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:05,300
said yourself right? 
Like probably the main they had 

998
01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:07,400
no choice but to make that 
decision, you know would have 

999
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,400
been hard to make, you know, to 
just have eith and you know with

1000
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,300
right, you know, seeing okay, 
it's very small. 

1001
01:02:15,300 --> 01:02:18,400
All right so like we really 
haven't seen anything, get to 

1002
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,200
any kind of scale right? 
That's actually collateralized 

1003
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,500
you know, with actual crypto ass
Assets. 

1004
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:31,900
So I think that whole scaling 
issue is like it feels like a 

1005
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:36,500
big big challenge to Me. 
Maybe I mean, maybe this would 

1006
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:40,300
be super interesting to get your
take on to me in large part. 

1007
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:44,400
This feels like mainly in Oracle
issue, because basically, if you

1008
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,200
had good price feeds for all 
kinds of assets, you could use 

1009
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,000
them as collateral. 
And I mean, this is, this is the

1010
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,400
reason why we don't see more 
real-world assets as collateral,

1011
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,300
because there is no good price 
feeds for them. 

1012
01:02:57,500 --> 01:03:02,000
So, basically, Somehow be 
magically, you know, I could, 

1013
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:07,200
you know, wave my wand and kind 
of have a good price feed for. 

1014
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,000
I kinds of things. 
I feel like most of these 

1015
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,600
problems would go away. 
All answered, both questions. 

1016
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:18,500
So on the one hand, Brian you're
correct. 

1017
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:21,900
No well-designed. 
Decentralized. 

1018
01:03:21,900 --> 01:03:24,800
Stable coin has scaled today, 
right? 

1019
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:26,800
We could say rise, well, design 
hasn't scale. 

1020
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:28,400
You could say, maker is 
well-designed. 

1021
01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:32,100
Until it's killed using you SC. 
See, you could say, you know, 

1022
01:03:32,100 --> 01:03:35,700
USD see skill, are you sdt scale
or UST? 

1023
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,300
Scale? 
Tara but it wasn't poorly. 

1024
01:03:38,300 --> 01:03:41,000
It was poorly designed and then,
you know, fifty billion dollars 

1025
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,300
in Flames. 
So I think the answer is it's 

1026
01:03:44,300 --> 01:03:48,200
still a work in progress and 
Frederick to your question of 

1027
01:03:49,300 --> 01:03:50,900
what if we had lots of price 
feeds? 

1028
01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:54,900
You know, maker was designed to,
you know, include real world 

1029
01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:58,400
assets, part of the challenge. 
There is also liquidation. 

1030
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:00,900
Right? 
If I say, I have a house and the

1031
01:04:00,908 --> 01:04:04,700
housing market, crashes, I use 
my house as collateral for a 

1032
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:07,300
loan somehow. 
You have to carry out some sort 

1033
01:04:07,300 --> 01:04:11,900
of unchain liquidation, process 
auction somehow you have to get 

1034
01:04:11,900 --> 01:04:14,900
the dye, you know, back into the
system. 

1035
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:19,300
So there's, there's 
complications there and the hard

1036
01:04:19,300 --> 01:04:22,700
part's always the paperwork 
with, with any of these like 

1037
01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:29,100
real world interfaces. 
So, My solution is going to 

1038
01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:33,000
sound really silly. 
My solution is youth, hit 75 

1039
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,900
thousand dollars and then 
decentralized stable coins can 

1040
01:04:36,900 --> 01:04:45,900
scale it's like maybe maybe like
we're still in the experiment 

1041
01:04:45,900 --> 01:04:49,400
running phase of the 
decentralized cable coin part. 

1042
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,000
Maybe it's a good thing that 
they're, you know, some hundred 

1043
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:56,600
million dollars. 
Maybe like if r i was Tens of 

1044
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:58,900
dollars. 
I would actually be freaking out

1045
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:03,400
right now. 
You know, like any any 

1046
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,700
weaknesses of the system would 
be like, much more apparent and 

1047
01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:11,700
risky. 
So I think it's important that 

1048
01:05:11,700 --> 01:05:13,600
we don't know. 
Figure this stuff out. 

1049
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:19,700
But like also realize that it's 
still pretty early and as the 

1050
01:05:19,700 --> 01:05:23,700
collateral base grows and we 
have even stronger, native 

1051
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:27,900
assets than it. 
Seems overwhelmingly likely that

1052
01:05:28,100 --> 01:05:33,800
the stable coins will grow 
proportionally to I mean, 

1053
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,700
usually we ask, what's, what's 
on the roadmap? 

1054
01:05:36,700 --> 01:05:38,800
For the project, it looks like 
that. 

1055
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,100
Like, you know, together with 
your meetings, you kind of 

1056
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:47,200
reduce your roadmap choices. 
So maybe I'll ask this the other

1057
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:52,700
way around, do you guys plan to 
ro to offer an out-of-the-box 

1058
01:05:52,700 --> 01:05:56,700
white label solution for people 
to make their own versions of 

1059
01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:58,700
Rye with whatever collateral 
they want? 

1060
01:05:58,700 --> 01:06:02,300
Because I think this is 
something that lots of projects 

1061
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,000
Might actually use right? 
Lots of dowels for instance who 

1062
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:08,900
have their own governance token 
and so on. 

1063
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:14,000
It's not a plan to make the like
fully white label, you know, out

1064
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:15,900
of the box thing. 
It's actually a little harder 

1065
01:06:15,900 --> 01:06:19,500
than, you know, it seems and 
also rallying people around 

1066
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:23,700
assets as like, you know, it 
might it might not make sense 

1067
01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:27,300
for like, you know, everybody to
have every project to have their

1068
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:30,900
own civil, maybe it does, I'm 
not sure I think our plan right 

1069
01:06:30,900 --> 01:06:35,800
now is to work with like groups 
that have the dev capacity to be

1070
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,100
able to Fork the system and 
manage it themselves. 

1071
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,300
And then we provide support. 
And Maybe, you know, get some 

1072
01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:45,600
tokens out of it or have some 
sort of, you know, partnership 

1073
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:51,500
agreement or something. 
But yeah, it's a little bit too 

1074
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:54,700
hard to go like full white label
in like three years, maybe it 

1075
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:58,000
won't be something. 
I've always said, is that like 

1076
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,600
the cost of deploying a 
sophisticated smart contract, 

1077
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,100
platform, you know, drops by a 
factor of 10 every year. 

1078
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,700
So with that look like was like,
2018, it was like 10 of, you 

1079
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:11,700
know, rocket science levels. 
A little dabs had to like make 

1080
01:07:11,700 --> 01:07:13,600
maker Dow from scratch over 18 
months. 

1081
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,500
You know, then like a small 
group of like for people in 2020

1082
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:18,800
could do it. 
Right. 

1083
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,400
And then like, you know, in a 
couple of years from now, it'll 

1084
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,500
be like one guy just like 
deploys, everything, right? 

1085
01:07:24,500 --> 01:07:31,800
So that's where we're going. 
I think the tools that Dows have

1086
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,100
reported wanting our things too,
like automatically, manage 

1087
01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:37,400
vaults. 
Like, for example, you know, if 

1088
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,400
you want to leave something for 
five years, and Act like maybe 

1089
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,200
you don't want a whole draw 
itself, you want to hold the 

1090
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,000
like Vault that automatically 
Arbitrage is Right, given the 

1091
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,800
market conditions, you know, and
makes you money in the meantime.

1092
01:07:51,300 --> 01:07:55,300
So people want things like that.
Like urine, you're in style 

1093
01:07:55,300 --> 01:07:58,000
tokenized vaults. 
It's a little bit tricky because

1094
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,700
we have to manage, you know, 
like debt and liquidation stuff.

1095
01:08:02,300 --> 01:08:08,500
So working on that also working 
on, we did just roll out our 

1096
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:11,500
like governance. 
Or my know, we call it on 

1097
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:14,300
governance, but it uses the 
compound Bravo and it works like

1098
01:08:14,300 --> 01:08:17,399
all the other governance is the 
on governance is just the meme 

1099
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:21,899
to make sure that, you know, we 
try to not do too much 

1100
01:08:21,899 --> 01:08:25,300
governance things. 
And then the last thing is that 

1101
01:08:25,300 --> 01:08:29,700
we are still researching and 
iterating on the controller with

1102
01:08:29,700 --> 01:08:33,000
the goal of coming up with some 
sort of controller that we can 

1103
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,899
lock in for a really long time 
without needing change it. 

1104
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:39,700
That won't of course happen 
without running it in prod for a

1105
01:08:39,707 --> 01:08:41,700
while. 
Maybe, you know, a couple of 

1106
01:08:41,707 --> 01:08:45,300
years with whatever we think is 
close to final, but we are 

1107
01:08:45,308 --> 01:08:50,300
talking about that encourage 
people to join our Discord and 

1108
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,000
jump into the research Channel, 
just publish some stuff about 

1109
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,600
the controller, how it's 
working, how could be updated. 

1110
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:59,200
Yeah, we're just trying to 
remove things, make it harder to

1111
01:08:59,207 --> 01:09:03,300
change. 
Hopefully also make it so that 

1112
01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:07,500
if one day the u.s. decides that
I can no longer touch it because

1113
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:10,800
I'm a US citizen. 
There's other woohoo, can still 

1114
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,000
touch it and make it run and 
they don't live in the u.s. 

1115
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:17,300
Cool. 
Thanks so much. 

1116
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:20,600
I mean there was a that was a 
perfect like wrap off and 

1117
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,500
summary at the end and thanks so
much for coming on. 

1118
01:09:23,500 --> 01:09:29,000
There was very great glad you 
working on this and I'm excited 

1119
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:34,500
to see you know we're right goes
and where the idea of you know 

1120
01:09:34,500 --> 01:09:39,500
better better decentralized 
stable assets, how that evolves 

1121
01:09:39,500 --> 01:09:41,700
in general. 
So thanks so much for joining us

1122
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:44,300
Yeah. 
Thanks for having me. 

1123
01:09:44,300 --> 01:09:46,500
Thanks for giving me the 
opportunity to talk to you guys 

1124
01:09:46,500 --> 01:09:49,300
about it. 
Cool, and thanks so much for 

1125
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:51,200
listening this for once again 
tuning in. 

1126
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,899
If you want to support the show,
make sure to leave us an option 

1127
01:09:53,899 --> 01:09:58,400
to review or if remember the job
post, we have to. 

1128
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,100
So if that's you then get in 
touch and we look forward to 

1129
01:10:02,108 --> 01:10:06,500
being back next week. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1130
01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:08,900
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1131
01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:10,900
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1132
01:10:10,900 --> 01:10:14,600
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1133
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,000
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And if you have a Google home or

1134
01:10:17,008 --> 01:10:19,800
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1135
01:10:19,808 --> 01:10:23,800
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1136
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,400
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1137
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,700
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1138
01:10:28,700 --> 01:10:32,000
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1139
01:10:32,008 --> 01:10:34,900
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1140
01:10:34,900 --> 01:10:37,300
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1141
01:10:37,300 --> 01:10:39,000
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1142
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:40,300
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1143
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:43,800
Well, thanks so much and we look
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