1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,920 This is Epicenter episode 524 with guest Renee Reinsberg and 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:21,640 Mariko Schefsky. Introducing the next generation 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,880 of dydx and the next version of the dydx token. 4 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,280 Welcome to the Dydx chain. New token mechanics mean you can 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,640 stake to secure the network. Staking is fully decentralized 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,240 and controlled by dydx token holders. 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,880 All fees are distributed to stakers. 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,160 Earn rewards from using the dydx protocol with rewards plan for 9 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,360 traders and early adopters too. No governance means you are in 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,840 control. Trading has been democratized. 11 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:51,800 You can vote on protocol improvements, token 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,640 distributions and more. Bridge your Dydx to seamlessly 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,960 transition to Dydx chain bridge now at bridge dot dydx dot trade 14 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,960 and contribute to the evolution of dydx chain. 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,520 Open source and community driven. 16 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,960 Run your own validator validating is fully 17 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,760 permissionless. Join us on our mission to 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,640 democratize access to financial opportunity today. 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,440 Welcome to Epicentre, the show which talks about the 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,280 technologies, projects, and people driving decentralization 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,920 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Frederica ANZ and I am here 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,480 with Rainey and Marek who are the Co founders of Cello, a 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,880 mobile first blockchain with a strong emphasis on serving 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,600 underserved communities. It's. 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,240 Great to be here. Yeah. 26 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,080 Thanks for having us back. We had you on previously, but 27 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,640 maybe we can do a quick round of introductions and giving a bit 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:56,000 of background on who you guys are, how you met and what makes 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000 you get up in the morning. Sure. 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:00,960 Yeah. No, it's it's lots. 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,200 A lot has happened since we were not from the show. 32 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,640 But yeah, I was just doing the math the other day. 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,800 Merrick, we've been working together for 12 years at this 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,240 point. So American has started a 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,360 company. Previously we met at MIT, there 36 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,720 was an AI company, though back then we didn't think about it in 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,520 that way, but it was, you know, they're kind of the common 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,360 threat there was. It was actually helping small 39 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,560 businesses. So again sort of you know, sort 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,920 of you know trying to support the little guy by better 41 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:37,360 competing online and we sold the company. 42 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,440 To to GoDaddy and worked there for a few years, helped take 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,560 Good Daddy, Good Daddy go public. 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,040 And after that we went back to the drawing board. 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,800 And yeah, a lot of the ideas that we were getting kind of 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,440 excited about were things that, you know, we felt the technology 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,800 to solve this was was Web 3. And so that was, you know, 48 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,120 getting us into the the the rabbit hole. 49 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,840 So yeah. Going on 7 years of working on 50 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,160 what has become seller which is which is super interesting. 51 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,040 Yeah, you definitely make a sound old in crypto when you say 52 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,320 that, it's kind of hard to believe seven years the past 53 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,720 already. Yeah, maybe just to add to that, 54 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,360 you know, I have a technical background at MIT where where 55 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,880 Renny and I met, I was working on a PhD in in parallel 56 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,600 computing and. Working on something called 57 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,800 deterministic multi threading, which is very coincidentally has 58 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,800 a lot of relevance for scaling blockchain platforms today. 59 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,800 And yeah, coming back to the origin story, you know, we 60 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,240 initially started by building a wallet on top of Ethereum. 61 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,120 That wallet has now evolved and become Valora, which you can 62 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,520 play around with, but back then. You know, we wanted to make 63 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,880 something that was just really easy for everyone to use that 64 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,040 was stable, Quinn focused that could be like a kind of a global 65 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:18,440 Venmo like product and we tried for a while making it be 66 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,560 sufficiently easy for for normies, although back then we 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,640 didn't call them normies and ultimately we realized that that 68 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,040 to do that we needed to to launch. 69 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,120 Or to work with a community to launch a new chain that had some 70 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,200 of the features that would allow you to build a really easy to 71 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,000 use experience. Fast forward to today the the 72 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,680 network is live and it's been humming along really well for 73 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,200 for the last couple of years. Velora is out and used in in 74 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,640 countless countries. Yeah, the community and 75 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,920 ecosystem keeps growing. And so it's just, it's just been 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,680 really exciting. Yeah, super interesting. 77 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,440 You just alluded to the fact that kind of Sello had to be 78 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:06,360 built in a specific way in order to kind of work for nomies and 79 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,880 on mobile phones. So what does that mean 80 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,600 concretely in terms of technology? 81 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:14,080 Yeah. So I think first and foremost, 82 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,720 you know scalability. You need a a chain that can keep 83 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,000 gas fees cheap. Just last week's seller 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,480 processed 20 million transactions in one day without 85 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:30,080 raising gas fees, processing I think on average 270 or so 86 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,000 transactions per second for again for 24 hours. 87 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:40,280 So I think that's a good example of just how scalable we've been 88 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:43,760 able to make and really it's the validator ecosystems being able 89 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:49,280 to make the seller platform. Secondly, we really wanted it to 90 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:55,000 have a mobile focus and so we worked really hard to create AZK 91 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,360 Snack based like client that that can sync on mobile devices. 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,640 But I think even more importantly, we worked really 93 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,320 hard to create something that we now call Social Connect, which 94 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,480 is a protocol that lets you effectively connect your phone 95 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,520 number to your wallet address in a privacy preserving way. 96 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,600 This is an optional feature that some wallets implement, and the 97 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,600 wallets that do implement it allow you to effectively send 98 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:27,520 value to to people in your contact list, which is just a 99 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,400 real delight for for anybody who's not crypto savvy. 100 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:39,160 And then finally we, we learned early on through various tests 101 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,920 in in Argentina that. Paying for gas with volatile 102 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,480 assets was just too too confusing for a lot of users and 103 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,000 so we we actually built native support for paying for gas with 104 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,920 tokens that doesn't require account abstractions. 105 00:06:53,920 --> 00:07:00,760 This is supported by EO as and that allows users to send, you 106 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,720 know, stable coins to other users who can then forward those 107 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,000 stable coins onwards without ever having to think about it. 108 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,120 You know what a gas currency is and how to get one. 109 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,480 There is a whole lot to unpack here. 110 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,000 Maybe let's go through them one by one because kind of I want to 111 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,840 understand them in detail. So how do you make it scale? 112 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,480 So kind of how do you get more transactions per second? 113 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,000 Because kind of, there's always kind of this scalability dilemma 114 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,960 with the security. How how do you get it to scale 115 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,680 to such lengths? Yeah. 116 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,760 So I think first and foremost by having an efficient proof of 117 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:47,960 state consensus protocol I think and then secondly working hard 118 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,800 to to ensure that EVM execution is happening quickly. 119 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:59,160 I think both of these generally are challenges for EVM chains 120 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,080 and you know we've been chipping away at kind of both of these 121 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,560 the. Reality is on the consensus 122 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,720 side, you know there there is you know obviously this dilemma 123 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,360 and it's difficult to achieve Ethereum level levels of kind of 124 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,080 decentralization while achieving you know one block finality, 125 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,680 short block times with a really high throughput. 126 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,200 And and that's why we're also really, really excited about 127 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,760 kind of this coming home to Ethereum, so to speak. 128 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,640 Through this L2 plan that Stello announced or I guess it's C Labs 129 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,400 proposed and then the community voted on and agreed upon earlier 130 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,000 in the year. And so I think by transitioning 131 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:48,720 Cello to an L2, we can inherit Ethereum's decentralization 132 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,280 while still offering these really great features, these 133 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,920 this high throughput, this, yeah, just this high throughput 134 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,640 that, that the chain provides. We'll get into that in just a 135 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,040 second. But maybe that's kind of go back 136 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,760 to kind of the way that kind of Sello started. 137 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,000 So basically, are you saying that kind of the way that you 138 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,760 could scale so efficiently was by having a fairly constricted 139 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,760 set of validators when compared to Ethereum? 140 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,640 So Ethereum has like 600,000 validators, right. 141 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,840 So basically, how much did you have have to constrict it in 142 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,680 order for you to kind of get these really amazing 143 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:28,240 throughputs? Sellos right now has 110 144 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,800 validators and it's actually constricted not by the consensus 145 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:39,040 protocol and scalability limits, but more by the the ZK snark 146 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,640 like client that we have. We built this like client, 147 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,840 started working on it I think four years ago, launched it two 148 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:53,160 years ago using I would say first generation ZK technology. 149 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,560 It's a huge achievement. We're really, really proud of 150 00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:00,080 it. But it does use a very, very big 151 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,040 circuit, two to the 27 constraints using a very big 152 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,360 curve PW 6. And that is a very big proof 153 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:16,560 that we have to generate daily on a very big machine and we 154 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,120 couldn't increase the validator set beyond the current limit 155 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,840 without making that even more. Onerous and so so that is the 156 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,240 current constraint but as it so happens you know it it we think 157 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,240 it's a really great level of decentralization especially for 158 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,560 a decentralized sequencer as again so it positions to anal to 159 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,040 OK so basically that means like users have azk like client on 160 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,760 their phone and that means kind of they don't have the full 161 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,320 state but kind of the full state is kind of like processed by 110 162 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,560 validator is kind of giving you that level of decentralization 163 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:55,000 is that is that kind of reframing it correctly. 164 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,400 So yes, wallets can can use, wallets and apps can can use. 165 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:05,320 We have some code that works in in using Wazem networks even in 166 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,280 a browser. While it's in, the apps can use 167 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,720 like client or they can use a decentralized RPC endpoint like 168 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,800 Lava, or they can use a trusted endpoint like Interior and 169 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,520 connect to chain that way. Absolutely. 170 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,720 OK, why don't we see more mobile first block chains? 171 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,320 Because in principle it seems almost like a no brainer, kind 172 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,480 of that there would be at least some. 173 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,680 Because kind of if you look at the word as a whole, almost 174 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:36,320 everyone is kind of primarily on their phones rather than on 175 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,960 laptops or more powerful devices. 176 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,640 Why don't we see more of those chains? 177 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Yeah, maybe I can. I can jump in. 178 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,120 I do think there's. Certainly you know it's been 179 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,160 surprised to us for how long it's taken for more you know for 180 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,400 the broader ecosystem to kind of think more about mobile and 181 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,600 we're we're seeing this you know even if you look at sort of the 182 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,840 kind of average transactions on say UNISWAP or curve on Cello 183 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,760 right versus unlike Ethereum in it right amounts tend to be 184 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,240 smaller people are accessing these steps from their, from 185 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,200 their phones, right. And I think that's. 186 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,600 There's a fundamentally different use case and for a lot 187 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,520 of the early builders, right. I think it was just more 188 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,120 lucrative to focus on sort of more high value transactions, 189 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,800 right, that traditionally still you know, tend to happen on 190 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,320 desktops, right. So for us it was really it 191 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,560 started just with being you know, in a sense being very 192 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:43,040 determined to try to make this work for everyone, right. 193 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,600 And obviously like you said, most people have mobile devices 194 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,520 and. It kind of extends into the 195 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,840 ecosystem, right, where there's the, the technical architecture 196 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,160 of the chain is is one side, but then also you know the kind of 197 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,880 wallets that are being built, right. 198 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,680 And there's a rich ecosystem of wallets that includes Valora and 199 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,760 others that you know have enabled in a sense like this 200 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,560 kind of mobile first experience of of Web 3. 201 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,960 But then it extends all the way into the DABS, right? 202 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,440 Where people are have built sort of much simpler interfaces, 203 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,600 things that can actually be more easily accessed. 204 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,120 Through a wallet, right, Or you know, hooks into kind of wallets 205 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,160 that kind of allow you to kind of interact with these 206 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,400 protocols. And I think there's, there's a 207 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:28,200 whole, yeah, kind of space for innovation that I think is we're 208 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,360 just starting to kind of see happening. 209 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,560 And I'm quite excited about when I think about, you know, even 210 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,200 going into the next cycle where my hope is that a lot of the, 211 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,600 you know, usage and kind of activity is going to come from. 212 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,960 Real world users not speculating on asset prices, but you know 213 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,120 accessing these rails for you know getting access to credit 214 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,000 right or making payments commerce, all these things and 215 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,000 that's in a sense needs to have mobile at the core. 216 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,360 And so we hope that some of the stuff that we've built and we 217 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,800 haven't, we haven't gotten through the whole list. 218 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,200 So we we should come come back to some of these innovations 219 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,480 like Social Connect. That are you know or Fiat 220 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,560 connected are kind of starting to be more widely adopted. 221 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,080 Even you know with interest beyond the cell ecosystem right 222 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,240 now with the L2 move can pave the way for that to happen more 223 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,920 quickly. Yeah, absolutely. 224 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Let's come back to to these usability improvements. 225 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,320 When most people think about blockchain, kind of, it's 226 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,160 difficult to kind of even explain to fairly tech forward 227 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,160 people, right? It's like, OK, download, 228 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,200 download this wallet or OK, this is your seat phrase. 229 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,080 You have to write it down. You can never show it to anyone. 230 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,960 Could also never lose it because otherwise everything is gone. 231 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,840 So how, how, how do you get from there to a place where kind of 232 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,960 you can't just give it like less technology forward, people. 233 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,480 You can give it like actual orders to God, no mis. 234 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,040 I can give I can give another example. 235 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,800 I'm sure you have a punch too, but. 236 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,800 I mean this is kind of a very recent example. 237 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,880 So Opera, very successful browser company, right. 238 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,480 I mean their market share in Africa is like 90% and Opera 239 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,880 Mini is a browser that's built for Android and it's extremely 240 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,200 popular because they also subsidized bandwidth for for 241 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,280 their African users. They built a seller wallet into 242 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,480 into Mini called Mini Pay. And the onboarding is quite 243 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,320 magical. I mean, people, I mean, they're 244 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,600 on Android, right? So people can very easily back 245 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,680 up their seed phrase on their on their Google account. 246 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,960 And you know, we've seen this since the launch of the product 247 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,760 in mid-september. You know, there no one has lost 248 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,720 their seed phrase, right? They've been like thousands. 249 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,960 I don't want to reveal like she had numbers that they're not 250 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,320 ready to reveal, but there's been a very high number of users 251 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,840 restoring their wallet successfully without kind of. 252 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,160 A glitch. And that's a massive success for 253 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Webster, right. That's something that a few 254 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,520 years ago we would have all been just very worried about, right? 255 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,320 That that would just, you know, result in a bunch of, you know, 256 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,480 messages or support calls or people just, you know, being 257 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,800 frustrated and giving up maybe. And I would say that's a problem 258 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,480 that you know, today really. I mean we can sort of say it's 259 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,200 it's, it's solved, right. We have the tools to to really 260 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,600 on board people that you know maybe other than. 261 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,920 Sort of a browser or WhatsApp don't really even use, you know, 262 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,680 much, you know, on on their phone, right. 263 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,920 And so that's that's amazing, right, Because that opens up a 264 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,840 whole new population to participate in this digital 265 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,160 economy, which is I think why a lot of us are here. 266 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,880 Yeah, absolutely. I I had no idea that opera 267 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,640 penetration in Africa is that high. 268 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,400 That's that's crazy. Yeah, it's, it's over 100 269 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,960 million people. It's pretty impressive. 270 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,160 Yeah. And you said earlier that 271 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,360 basically you let people pay gas in any token. 272 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,880 How do you do that? Is it just kind of via relay 273 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,640 network or how? How is it implemented? 274 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,480 Yeah, so it's actually implemented natively in the 275 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,359 platform. So no relay is required, no 276 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:12,440 paymaster is required. And and the way it works is the 277 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,000 Seller Blocks client basically supports a new envelope style 278 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,720 transaction. Envelope transactions were 279 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:25,280 introduced with the IP 1559 in this area, and this new type of 280 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,640 transaction basically takes an extra field that is a address 281 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,720 for a token that you'd like to pay for gas with. 282 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,000 And then we we technically don't allow paying for gas with any 283 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,600 token. It's only through a limited set 284 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:46,480 of allow listed tokens that are governed through on chain 285 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,960 governance. Solo has a kind of a Dow that 286 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,000 has a lot of different functionality in, one of which 287 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,960 is I guess retaining this this allow list and then basically 288 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,640 the the client right before. Executing your transaction will 289 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,360 check that the token is that the gas currency, desired gas 290 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:13,280 currency is in the allow list and if so it will debit your 291 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,760 balance in that token by doing an EVM call into the token 292 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:24,160 contract to to deduct how much you're bidding for gas and then 293 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,680 at the end of of your transaction it will do the same 294 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,520 to credit you any any balance that. 295 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,920 Over to you for as a refund, and that's it. 296 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,760 And you know, naturally to help validators order these 297 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,560 transactions relative to each other, we we do currently have 298 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,400 each of these tokens have an Oracle that reports on the price 299 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,040 relative to Sello. It's technically not needed 300 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,680 because validators can choose to order these things however they 301 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,880 want using whatever price that they they they want, but we just 302 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,320 wanted to make their lives easier. 303 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,120 And just have something that they can look at to make it 304 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,160 easier for them to order the mem pool. 305 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,400 And you know, the end result is really easy UX for end users, 306 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,160 for wallets, for gaps. You don't have to have all of 307 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,440 these extra complexity around, you know, real layers or new 308 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,080 types of ways of signing transactions and additional 309 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,720 folks playing a role in the platform. 310 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,440 Everything just works. Natively really, really easily 311 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,280 and and honestly it's been a really big success. 312 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:38,200 People really like being able to cash in into CUSD and then be 313 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,480 able to you know buy ETH on a decks without having to go to a 314 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,120 centralized exchange, right. If you think about kind of the 315 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:51,240 the dream of enabling fully decentralized, you know, capital 316 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:59,120 D DAP experiences then. Allowing people to to cash into 317 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,040 stable coins, ideally to a stable coin that's pegged to 318 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:06,640 their local currency and then to be able to start transacting 319 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,800 straight away, that's really a nice experience, a nice self 320 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,720 custodial experience that that's possible on sella and with sella 321 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:22,960 wallets that you know helps and support gaps and and more 322 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,920 decentralization. Yeah, absolutely. 323 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,200 How do you think about confirmation time? 324 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,040 So how long is acceptable kind of for mobile user who actually 325 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,080 uses it for like a real world thing? 326 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,200 Yeah, it's a great question. So we did some testing early on 327 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:45,040 and we found that 5 seconds is still feel snappy enough and so 328 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,880 Solo has 5 second block times with one block finality. 329 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,240 That gives us more time to achieve consensus. 330 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,320 Which? Is is good for processing large 331 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,160 amounts of transactions per second. 332 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,440 But you know, I think realistically given that there 333 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,240 are chains with lower block times, I think as part of the L2 334 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,880 transition, we're talking about moving that down to something 335 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,400 closer to two seconds. But the end result for users is 336 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,880 going to be pretty similar. I think if you transact on the 337 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,760 seller platform, everything feels, you know, very, very 338 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,920 snappy. So you guys cater heavily to the 339 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:31,280 to the global S Are there challenges that you wouldn't 340 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:37,120 have in the global N? For instance, I heard that that 341 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,520 kind of device memory is often a problem. 342 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,880 So that basically for instance, people can't install new apps 343 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:51,040 because kind of they're out of out of memory and like problems 344 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,800 we don't usually think about because kind of most people in 345 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:59,600 our bubble have like the latest iPhone or you know, top of the 346 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,920 line Android device. What has experience taught you? 347 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,840 Yeah. Maybe just expanding on the kind 348 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:15,200 of mini pay mentioned, I mean that was a big factor also I 349 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,000 think. When we started chatting with 350 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,360 them about sort of this product and they told us sort of how 351 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,880 they launched products into the market, right. 352 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,120 I think this kind of it met with a lot of things that we had 353 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,680 heard and learned in, in pilots or projects, right. 354 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,840 We have been a part of as as part of the seller journey and 355 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,240 there were some really nice benefits, right. 356 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 So I mentioned that Mini Opera Mini kind of subsidizes user's 357 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,440 bandwidth. Which means that if you have a 358 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,000 wallet that's in the browser, right, you also basically get 359 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,680 subsidized you know for for your wallet use. 360 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,040 So that's that's really cool. They built the actual wallets to 361 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,560 be only kind of 2 megabytes package compared to I think like 362 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,760 meta mask is like 68 megabytes and quite this wallet like a lot 363 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,680 more even than right So and so that's where you're starting to 364 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,760 get into challenges when you have users that are. 365 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,880 Living from you know, sort of 50 megabytes, 100 megabytes at a 366 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,560 time, right, To get through the week and do all the things they 367 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,600 need to do online on that, The cost of sort of updating or even 368 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,760 just installing a new app to try it, it's kind of prohibitive for 369 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,800 for a lot of users. So being really mindful around 370 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,080 that and you know, orienting the experience around that has been. 371 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,840 Yeah, definitely kind of a key factor and again this extends to 372 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,960 to the ecosystem right and thinking through sort of every 373 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,640 touch point, every bit of interaction, right. 374 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,440 Is there stuff that you can sort of streamline and make work 375 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,360 better you know on sort of those constrained environments and and 376 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,760 sort of low end devices. I will say though, you know, I 377 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,480 mean. As someone in the global N some 378 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,880 of these improvements also you know, feel quite nice when 379 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,960 you're, you know, kind of accessing things on the latest 380 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,840 iPhone, right? So I think it's just like some 381 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,320 of it is, you know things don't need to be as convoluted 382 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,000 sometimes as they need to be right. 383 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,720 And sometimes simplicity, even when you are not constrained on 384 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,000 bandwidth can be kind of a nice can be a nice forcing function 385 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,440 for a better experience. So. 386 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,160 Yeah, I think that's, you know, it's nice to have the start with 387 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,240 sort of the kind of, you know, the users that will have most 388 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,200 trouble accessing the experiences that you're building 389 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,640 as an ecosystem. And then I think that has nice 390 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,520 sort of downstream effects in terms of all users, right? 391 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,440 And obviously we have a lot of users in the global S but you 392 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,400 know, there's also a lot of people in Europe and you know 393 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,640 all over sort of the global N kind of using using seller 394 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,200 products. Yeah, I think Luke Rubelski 395 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,640 wrote a book called Mobile First back in the day when web two 396 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,080 companies were were thinking about their mobile first 397 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,560 transitions and journeys. And one of the things he talked 398 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,440 about in that book is about when you build in a mobile first 399 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,040 manner, you've, you know, you focus on bandwidth, you focus on 400 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,520 you know band bundle size, all of these things that Ronnie just 401 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,280 mentioned. But then the end result is 402 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,840 everyone benefits, even people using your desktop applications. 403 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,480 And certainly we've seen that in this early ecosystem as well. 404 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,400 One thing that I think people all over the place will benefit 405 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,520 from is this user identity linking, linking to the to the 406 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,680 phone numbers. What cryptographic methods do 407 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,480 you use to ensure privacy and security in this verification 408 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,800 process? Yeah, it's a great question. 409 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,840 And so we have this this protocol it's, it's called 410 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,120 Social Connect, which under the hood uses another protocol 411 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,960 called Otis, which is a threshold cryptography system. 412 00:25:53,960 --> 00:26:01,600 So we use threshold signatures on BLS 12377 that effectively 413 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:11,040 allow a quorum of Otis nodes. To respond to any request to 414 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,560 look up a a particular phone number or the address for a 415 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,600 particular phone number and and by doing this no note on its own 416 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:28,640 can recover the phone number for or the address for a particular 417 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,360 phone number. Without a threshold, I think 418 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,960 it's 50%. Of these nodes responding. 419 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,720 And I think that's really, really nice because you know, 420 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,240 certainly it offers privacy guarantees. 421 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,240 It allows these nodes in a distributed way. 422 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,080 It's not quite decentralized because it's a permission set of 423 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,920 other signers, but it's a big set. 424 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,080 There's I think 10s of these nodes and they're all doing 425 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,960 their own. Kind of attack detection to make 426 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:07,200 it hard for anyone attacker to try to identify all of these 427 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,400 phone numbers. OK. 428 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,440 So basically in essence it's distributed set with a 429 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,000 threshold, but where basically I can ask them for the private key 430 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,080 that is somehow connected with your phone number. 431 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,400 Basically they they they give me that, but basically I can't go 432 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,480 the other way around. Is that is that correct or how 433 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,440 do I think about it? That's close. 434 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,880 I think with the one changes they give you the not the 435 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,360 private key, but they give you a salt that you can use to derive 436 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,880 the wallet address. And so the wallet addresses are 437 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,480 stored on chain, but are hashed with a unique salt per phone 438 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,200 number. And that's salt is what this 439 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,360 Otis server Otis servers. Are are giving you for any UN 440 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,080 phone number and and you need to to request it from a threshold 441 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:09,080 of these servers. OK, and if I want to update my 442 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,960 address, I can. I can do that by contacting them 443 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,160 too, right? Yes, you don't even need to 444 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,120 contact them. You just update on in the 445 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:24,320 mapping because you you know your own salt and so you're able 446 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,280 to. To to update the mapping 447 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,680 yourself and can you do that counterfactually? 448 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,120 So so someone who's not been registered with their phone 449 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,560 number, can I send them, is it deterministic? 450 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,800 Can I send them a kind of funds and the threshold set can kind 451 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:49,360 of know which which address the the, the what it's going to be 452 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,720 deployed to kind of like create to? 453 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,560 Yeah, it's a good question. So the salt is deterministic per 454 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,360 deployment of Otis. We're on our second deployment 455 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,440 now. And so that was the EKG that was 456 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,240 done. So that's deterministic. 457 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,880 But the and that's deterministic regardless of what portion of 458 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,480 these nodes respond. What 50% portion of these 459 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,600 servers respond, but. The second piece is registering 460 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,560 your wallet address on chain and that part is non deterministic. 461 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,160 You can register any wallet address. 462 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,080 If I send it to someone who's not yet kind of signed up, it 463 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,040 just goes into Nirvana. So right, the solution for that 464 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,560 flow is we have an escrow smart contract and so wallets can 465 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,160 detect that the user hasn't yet signed up at that phone number. 466 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,600 And so they send the money instead to an escrow smart 467 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,840 contract. And then the escrow smart 468 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,800 contract will only release the funds to someone who signs up 469 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,920 with that phone number, and then while it's can automatically 470 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,400 fetch the funds as part of onboarding. 471 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,320 And so I think you're asking about what's the experience like 472 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,400 for new for someone who's sending money to someone who 473 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,480 isn't yet. Doesn't yet have a wallet and 474 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,040 and the answer is that the experience is exactly like you 475 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,080 would hope it to be. Which is that you know the user 476 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,240 can send them money anyway and then gets prompted to to invite 477 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:29,320 the the recipient you know to the platform, usually using like 478 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,520 a WhatsApp or text message. And then those users can then 479 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,360 sign up and and have the the funds claim the funds 480 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:42,280 automatically. You said earlier that that Sello 481 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,760 announced over the summer that kind of it would or there was 482 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,320 vote over the summer that kind of it would become an L2 on 483 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,360 Ethereum rather than remaining its own L1. 484 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,640 So specifically kind of if I require correctly, you're going 485 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,400 the Villidium route on the OP stack with like data 486 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,800 availability with Eigen DA. How did you arrive at this 487 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,600 decision? I mean first of all kind of like 488 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,560 the general move kind of like of coming home to Ethereum rather 489 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,400 than remaining your own L1 because obviously it also comes 490 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,960 with drawbacks, right? I mean you you you do inherit a 491 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,400 security from Ethereum to a second certain extent, but you 492 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,520 also pay for it. I mean you avoid most of that 493 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,840 that cost by by by not doing data availability on Ethereum 494 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,760 natively, but it still comes with considerable cost which 495 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:46,160 kind of when you when you look at serving the global S with the 496 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,360 kind of like low value transactions and so on, it it 497 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,960 must have been a difficult decision, no? 498 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680 Merrick, let me jump in first, then you can go into a bit more 499 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,040 of the detail. But and I think you had 500 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,720 mentioned this in the earlier part of the conversation, right? 501 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,920 That's. When we first started settle, we 502 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,760 actually build on Ethereum, right. 503 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,560 And in in many ways this has been a constant. 504 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,840 I think we've been obviously closely following everything 505 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,720 that was happening in the Ethereum world and the sort of 506 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,480 idea had come up before, but this was the first time where 507 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,240 you know also to what you pointed out, right there was a 508 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,560 potential design where the end user experience particularly 509 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,080 around fees. Site would be workable in terms 510 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,720 of not sort of creating kind of obstacles that would be too high 511 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,160 to you know for the current sort of use cases on Sello, but also 512 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,600 for the stuff that we want to continue to see on Sello. 513 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,880 So when that became clear, I think there was very quickly 514 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,960 kind of excitement building within the community and before 515 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,000 we kind of went what public was it in the sort of broader 516 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,520 community? Yeah, I think we we kind of. 517 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,280 It's sort of our initial research on it and we can go 518 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,520 into the details. But I will just say and you know 519 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,840 a lot of this work is driven out of Sea Labs and so Merrick can 520 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,160 can can comment more in the sort of play by play. 521 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,480 But it's been just phenomenal to also see how for us it's kind 522 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,040 of, it feels like a coming home moment, but also we've been 523 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,960 receiving such a lot of support from the Broadway theme 524 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,560 community and a lot of people that. 525 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,600 I think had followed our work over the years, but now I think 526 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,760 felt sort of maybe also more more urgency or just seeing that 527 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,800 there may be kind of more opportunities to kind of partner 528 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,280 and collaborate, which has been really amazing to see. 529 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,560 But, but yeah, Mary, I'll hand it to you for some of the 530 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,800 technical choices in that initial design and maybe kind of 531 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,960 where where some of that is, is now. 532 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,200 Yeah. And you know I think this has 533 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,280 definitely been kind of a journey for the whole ecosystem 534 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,400 and and community. I think as Randy mentioned you 535 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:08,239 know we we started off building Ethereum and ultimately to 536 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,199 accomplish what we wanted to to accomplish, we we felt that we 537 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,600 had to work with the community to create an A new chain, an EVM 538 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,520 compatible chain because we believed in Ethereum and we 539 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,440 believed in the EVM but nonetheless to a new chain and. 540 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,440 You know, over the years obviously the roll up base 541 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,719 scalability road map kind of continued to get refined, more 542 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,320 roll ups launched. It became very, very clear that 543 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,360 that if the theorem was succeeding with this strategy. 544 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,199 And so given our excitement for for Ethereum, you know, I think 545 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,480 the community's actually been long talking about ways, you 546 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,159 know, going for as far back as 1.51 and a half years ago. 547 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,000 You know, talking about what could seller look like as as a 548 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,960 potential L2. And so coming back to this year, 549 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:04,880 you know, Sealabs, I think with the announcement of Eigen DA, 550 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,560 realize that oh, actually there's a, there's a way for us 551 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,080 to become an L2 while keeping gas fees cheap while also doing 552 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,680 it in a very Ethereum aligned way with Eigen DA, you know, 553 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,600 effectively being run by Ethereum validators, you know, 554 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,320 we felt that. We could create an L2 design 555 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,600 that preserves all of the features of Sello, all of the 556 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:34,800 benefits of Sello while still plugging into the Ethereum 557 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,160 scalability road map and being part of, you know, Ethereum's 558 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,720 scalability plans. And so I think that that was 559 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,640 this aha moment for us and and ultimately why, you know, Sealab 560 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,120 has put forward this proposal, we wanted the proposal to be. 561 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,560 Very concrete. And so we actually did the 562 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,040 legwork to come up with an architecture that as you said 563 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,800 you know leveraged OP stack, leveraged Eigen DA. 564 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,720 We also thought long and hard a lot about one block finality 565 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,240 which is a feature that sell offers and we wanted to preserve 566 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,080 not and one that's not trivial for L twos to offer. 567 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,600 And so we spent a bunch of time on that. 568 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,400 We we put forward a very detailed architecture proposal 569 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,480 that the community voted on. I will say that, you know, since 570 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,840 then we've got a lot of inbound from a lot of L2 stacks that 571 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:33,000 have been pitching the community on, you know, other Lt. 572 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,440 technologies. And so even though even though C 573 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,880 Labs has been building an OP stack since July since that 574 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,040 proposal passed, there continues to be conversations at the 575 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,280 community level about, you know, maybe there's others CKEBM 576 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,960 stacks that. Might be a good fit for for 577 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,880 Sello. And so that's been exciting to 578 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,440 see. It's just been, you know, really 579 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,000 great to see not just the whole Sello ecosystem get really 580 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,240 excited about this, but you know, the broader Ethereum 581 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,120 ecosystem. That reception has been just 582 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,240 absolutely amazing. So it's been really, really 583 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:14,120 great. How does single single block 584 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,760 finality kind of mesh with fraud proofs and kind of maybe it's a 585 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,120 false dichotomy but in my head either you can kind of you get 586 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,560 shared security from Ethereum and then kind of you need to to 587 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:32,480 let people to to leave them a pass to actually access Ethereum 588 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,600 security layer by kind of escalating the conflict on on 589 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,120 the L2 or you get single slot finality. 590 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,520 How do you toe that toe that line? 591 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,320 Yeah, It's a great question and I think. 592 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,600 The the answer relies on this kind of fundamental observation 593 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:56,120 that for finality the the fraud proof window is actually not 594 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,000 important and and neither is you know, CK proofs necessarily. 595 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,680 Ultimately, finality for most L twos is accomplished by posting 596 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:11,720 transactions to the L1, and as soon as they're on the L1 597 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,880 they're deemed and a final. Write any full node following 598 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,840 the chain, deriving blocks on the chain will will will deem 599 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,360 those blocks as final. The fraud proof window is 600 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,720 actually irrelevant. That's mostly for the bridge 601 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,440 itself. For the native bridge, yeah, but 602 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,480 not so much for finality. And so there's two sources of 603 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:41,880 potential reorgs that can happen in L21 is from the L2 itself, so 604 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,800 if you have a sequencer, that. Tells you that the next block 605 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,200 will look like this, but then submits a different block to the 606 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,560 L1. Then L2 clients will have to 607 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,440 reorg when they, you know, first we'll get the the first block, 608 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,760 and we'll assume that that's kind of an unsafe but likely 609 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,320 block to to get promoted to a finalized block. 610 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,520 But then when they see what actually got posted to Ethereum, 611 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,200 they're going to have to reorg and. 612 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:15,480 And roll back and so that's one source of non determine of 613 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,600 reorgs and then the other source of reorgs is just the L1 itself, 614 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,320 right? If theorem reorgs then the L2 615 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:28,920 naturally has to reorg. And so to address this we came 616 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,080 up with a design that one has a decentralized sequencer and two 617 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,080 relies on slashing for equivocation by that 618 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,480 decentralized sequencer. So if the. 619 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:49,400 In order for a transaction batch to be to be kind of sequenced, 620 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,960 you need 2/3 of these sequencers to sign off on it. 621 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:58,320 And if they ever sign off on another transaction batch and 622 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,520 post that to Ethereum, then that's easy to prove and a 623 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,680 slashable condition. And by having a more than one 624 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:13,040 sequencer, you can actually. Have more stake that is at stake 625 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,440 when when these folks misbehave. And so that allows you to 626 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:24,360 effectively have what we call cancello security to offer a 627 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,920 finality guarantee that can exist in a shorter window than 628 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,680 whatever period by which you know batches are are submitting 629 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:38,000 transactions to the L1. And then secondly you know for 630 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,920 the L1 reorg, the solution there is to effectively wait for 631 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,880 transactions to be finalized on the L1 before they are imported 632 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,160 into the L2. So that means that any forced 633 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,920 transactions, any deposit transaction that happens on the 634 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,480 L1, we have to wait 12 minutes effectively before those 635 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,160 transactions appear on the L2. And in that way even if the L1 636 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,960 reorgs, those transactions you know won't have appeared yet on 637 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,520 the L2 and so the L2 doesn't have to reorg. 638 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,280 So those are the two changes. And I was talking about this in 639 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,400 the context of A roll up posting transactions to to the L1, but 640 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,360 everything is very similar even in the case of the L2 using an 641 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:35,040 LTA like I can DA. I think that that makes a lot of 642 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,280 sense. Do you use the the validator set 643 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600 that you had kind of as an L1 and kind of for the 644 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,640 decentralized sequencer or how do you construct it because kind 645 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,200 of that's been a really hard problem for all L twos kind of 646 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,320 sequencer decentralization and by in a way you already had like 647 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,200 I mean if if you think about it in those terms kind of the the 648 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,040 the sequencer in in. Is is kind of your validator set 649 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,600 right? So basically the sequences that 650 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,280 entity that's allowed to kind of actually build the blocks. 651 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,920 And you already had 110 distinct entities. 652 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,960 So how do you enmesh these two things? 653 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,800 Yeah, it's a really great question and the answer is 100%. 654 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,280 We will transition the validator set to the decentralized 655 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,560 sequencer set. There's a lot of benefits in in 656 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,000 doing that and it just ends up being a much more elegant 657 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,600 migration for for the ecosystem and things like slashing for 658 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,120 equivocation. We actually get for free if we 659 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,400 do that because we already have slashing for equivocation on 660 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,800 Sello. And so all of the finality 661 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,280 guarantees that we offer today, basically the L2 inherits and 662 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:53,920 then adds to that Ethereum security and finality just with 663 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,880 a longer time period. So if you're doing a small 664 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,240 transaction, then maybe you're happy to wait for and sell those 665 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:02,760 sequencers to agree on a transaction batch. 666 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,920 But if you're doing a big transaction, maybe you wait a 667 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,760 little bit longer until that transaction, the existence of 668 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,040 that transaction gets logged on Ethereum. 669 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,440 How often do you settle to Ethereum? 670 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,960 Because, I mean, so basically if you look at the costs of L2's. 671 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,240 I mean it it, it depends how often you'd kind of check into 672 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:24,840 Etherium, but typically like 95% of the transaction costs kind of 673 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,440 go to date availability and then like 5% go to like checking in. 674 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,800 Obviously you can kind of lower that by kind of checking in less 675 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,680 frequently, but then kind of you have security later. 676 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,360 So how do you navigate that and did you decide kind of on a 677 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,800 ceiling price, say for 100,000 gas or something that kind of 678 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,800 you think would be acceptable to your average user? 679 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,360 Yeah, it's a really great question. 680 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,560 So we haven't decided on on the period or or the price right 681 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,000 now. I think we're still doing that 682 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,400 work. And one nuance I guess for us is 683 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,960 that we're storing the transactions in Eigen DA and 684 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:10,200 then Eigen DA reference kind of pointer back to us and we have 685 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,760 to store that on Ethereum and that is much smaller than 686 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,360 obviously the set of all transactions. 687 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,640 And so the gas costs of of storing that is is much, much, 688 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,120 much less. And so that's how we can keep 689 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:28,360 our low gas fees is basically by replacing that 95% cost that you 690 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:34,000 just referenced with a much smaller cost that is is likely 691 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,360 going to cost you know something like 5%. 692 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,600 So we might double the transaction fee on Cello, but we 693 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:45,040 want you know 20 exit as part of this transition. 694 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,600 The exact period by which we'll be posting that I think also 695 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,640 depends a little bit on Eigen DA. 696 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,520 Eigen DA just went to test net two weeks ago. 697 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,640 And so we're still waiting to see what the production specs 698 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,520 will look like, which will definitely impact kind of the 699 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,560 design choice here. So the danger with being an L2 700 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,720 on Ethereum is obviously that kind of your transaction fees 701 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,160 are directly coupled to Ethereum transaction fees, right, because 702 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,120 you kind of have to, you have to pay Prorator the kind of check 703 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,520 in costs of Sello on Ethereum. And currently gas fees are 704 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,320 pretty low, but we've seen them spike in the past. 705 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,760 And if you if you kind of expect Ethereum to kind of eventually 706 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,280 become the global settlement layer and if you look at kind of 707 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,040 the the, the scaling road map of Ethereum. 708 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,840 There's not actually. I mean, beyond Deng sharding, 709 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,920 which doesn't help you all that much because you're already 710 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,680 using Eigen DA anyways. There's not all that much to 711 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:51,240 seriously speed up scalability on Ethereum in the next couple 712 00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,720 of years. How, how do you think about that 713 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,920 kind of in terms of the applications that kind of rely 714 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:02,440 on fairly low fees? Yeah, I I think this design 715 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,480 caters to them. So I think by only having to 716 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:12,520 sort of the the Eigen DA ref you can, you can dramatically 717 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,680 dramatically lower the fees and certainly you can also change 718 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,560 the period by which you're storing this. 719 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,400 So that might also potentially give some wiggle room for for 720 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,640 the chain. But yeah, I think given this 721 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,880 design I'm not not too concerned even as if you're in prices go 722 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,760 back and and go beyond where they were in in the last bull 723 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,960 market I. Think it goes, it goes back to 724 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,560 the earlier question as well, right. 725 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,560 I think you know you can offer seller security, right, for 726 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,880 something like for a lot of transactions, right, that kind 727 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,800 of are below a certain threshold, but that have 728 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,920 Ethereum security for sort of the more valuable transactions, 729 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,160 right. And sort of, you know, I think 730 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,800 in many ways this is a concept that we're. 731 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,640 Pretty familiar with even kind of pre web street, right, in 732 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,360 terms of like you know the stuff that's in my physical wallet, 733 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,360 right, kind of the security of that versus you know what's in 734 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,600 my bank account and and so on. So I think it's kind of you know 735 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,400 and I I think this is just a very simplified view of this, 736 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,480 but I imagine as some of the L2 infrastructure kind of hardens, 737 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,920 right and the improvements that you know all the teams that are 738 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,960 focused on this are making even. You know, since July, since we 739 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,520 kind of well openly started kind of that exploration has been 740 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,800 pretty encouraging that there's a path towards continuing to 741 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,320 lower that cost. But even if you completely 742 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,120 discount kind of like all of the data availability costs that you 743 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,320 incur kind of just by settling on Ethereum periodically, you 744 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,880 kind of you have to pay that fee kind of as an L2 and you kind of 745 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,560 have to kind of put this on the. Single transactions that kind of 746 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:04,240 happened on Sello, which does actually put a a flaw on how 747 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:06,440 little a transaction can cost, right? 748 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,720 And kind of if if costs on Ethereum go up, kind of the 749 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:14,680 costs on Sello have to go up by the same amount just by virtue 750 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,200 of kind of ultimately settling on Ethereum. 751 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,520 So I think so you're right, there is a floor, but 752 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,520 interestingly this floor is not tied to the number of 753 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,640 transactions in the L2, right? It is for roll ups, right, 754 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,520 because you have to store transactions on chain. 755 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,960 But if you're using Eigen DA for data availability, then the 756 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,560 number of transactions that you put in any given block can be 757 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,880 arbitrary. The size of this Eigen DA 758 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,960 reference is fixed. Likewise, when you update the 759 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,840 state route for the L2 bridge, the amount of transactions that 760 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,960 executed between state route updates can be arbitrary. 761 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,440 So, so if it came to that you you would just kind of prolong 762 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,160 the period you'd wait until kind of updating the state route on 763 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,600 Ethereum. Yeah, I would be surprised if we 764 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:16,200 would have to do that because I think even at high gas fees the 765 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,800 just based on the amount of economic activity happening on 766 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,840 solar today like I I don't think that that would be necessarily 767 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,320 required. But yeah, absolutely. 768 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,680 I think that I think more than that I think we would look to 769 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,240 scale Cello so that it, it keeps up with Ethereum gas prices I 770 00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:37,840 think is the answer. In principle, it also seems like 771 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,160 a good route for kind of other chains to kind of decentralize 772 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,160 their sequences, right? Because kind of, yeah, it is a 773 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,800 major problem, but maybe let's just move on. 774 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:52,120 So we already talked about Mini Pay, the application of Opera 775 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,520 Mini. That kind of gives users 776 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,480 natively a wallet without them kind of having to think of it as 777 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,880 a wallet. You also recently had something 778 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,920 launched on Sello called Credit Collective, which I found very 779 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,240 enticing. Can you talk about that? 780 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:13,240 Yeah, I mean one one of the use cases I've personally been and I 781 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,040 think many of the ecosystems since the very early days is 782 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,520 giving people access to credit. And so this actually was. 783 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,920 Really an entirely LED kind of community LED effort where a 784 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,520 bunch of people that were working on credit protocols got 785 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,680 together and started meeting and organizing. 786 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,320 And you know some of the activity was centered on Sello, 787 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,720 but it wasn't like you know, that wasn't sort of like or you 788 00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:38,040 know, you can't, you know, can't be here if you're not on Sello. 789 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:43,040 So actually a lot of the early members were kind of building in 790 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:48,120 different ecosystems and. One thing that was kind of 791 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,280 interesting was was Credit Collective. 792 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,200 It started really just as a bunch of people that shared that 793 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,640 kind of interest in bringing these solutions to market, 794 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,160 meeting up and exchanging ideas without sort of it starting. 795 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,880 You know, like usually a lot of these things start with like, 796 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,600 you know, funding or some other thing right here it was really 797 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,680 just, it was kind of like, you know, a group of people getting 798 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,840 together and exchanging ideas and then at some point Credit 799 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,960 Collective sort of formalized that and. 800 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:21,120 Actually applied to the the sell on chain funds for for funding 801 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,800 for effectively funding to help bootstrap adoption of these 802 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,640 protocols. So they requested I think it was 803 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,240 a total of 2,000,000 seller EUR kind of sell back to stable coin 804 00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:37,560 or kind of linked stable coin, pecked stable coin to be used as 805 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,640 kind of seed seed capital on these protocols to extend. 806 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,120 In many cases what is you know direct to consumer or kind of 807 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,440 you know small enterprises in the global S you know kind of 808 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,720 credit and and just to be clear these are you know for the most 809 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,960 part under codalized or non codalized loans. 810 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,760 So not sort of the the ones you would get on Avi or or compound 811 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:05,400 and and really sort of extending I think the utility of of Web 812 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,960 Street right to kind of the real world which is which is 813 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,240 something that's really exciting. 814 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,680 Yeah, I don't know if you had specific questions about it. 815 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,360 We should also you know I have to connect you to some of the 816 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,880 people working on that but I've I've been pretty excited by 817 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,120 seeing something like that kind of take form and you know sort 818 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:28,120 of that self organizing and you know creating sort of funding 819 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,960 umbrella. To it, you know was was really 820 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,560 cool to to see to see that happening. 821 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,160 Yeah and it's been cool to see some of these projects take off 822 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,560 right. So Impact market which is a Ubi 823 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,640 project on Sello recently launched a micro lending 824 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,680 campaign. I think they have hundreds of 825 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,680 thousands of of dollars now that they've been lending out in the 826 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,480 form of micro loans. You can think of this as being 827 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,120 an analogous to Kiva in the web two world. 828 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,720 I think Kiba has had a lot of success in in having this kind 829 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:06,200 of donate to lend kind of strategy and and I think it's 830 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,880 it's had a lot of impact globally and and impact market 831 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,880 is now replicating that but by using crypto rails allowing them 832 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:19,720 to operate at you know a fraction of of the overhead of 833 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,960 of something like Kiba. And so yeah it's been it's been 834 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,240 really great to see I think this these are the types of use cases 835 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,360 that we have long talked about in web three and that have 836 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,000 gotten a lot of people you know myself included excited about 837 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,920 web 3 early on and it's just you know so nice to see them you 838 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,480 know finally working on a large scale. 839 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,240 Yeah, it's been great. Are these sort of local 840 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:48,160 initiatives? So kind of is this kind of like 841 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:49,520 say for instance, I don't know where. 842 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,440 Where impact markets or kind of the the the key equivalent are 843 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,200 based, but are these kind of by locals for locals or is this 844 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:05,080 kind of by well-intentioned global northerners for the 845 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,480 global South? It's a mix. 846 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,200 So they're definitely projects that are originating in, you 847 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,560 know, Nairobi, Manila and you know, sort of right where the 848 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,240 activity is. But it's but it's also yeah it's 849 00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:25,440 people coming out of the Kibas right and wanting to bring that 850 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,920 experience to solutions that I think have the potential to 851 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:35,680 scale you know a lot better and and leverage sort of the the 852 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,480 infrastructure that webs we can provide. 853 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,000 So it's it's actually interesting because I think that 854 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,040 cross pollination is also something that's I think 855 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,440 benefits both right. It brings more. 856 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,920 Of that local expertise to you know maybe the teams that are 857 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,960 coming at this not with that first hand experience. 858 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,240 And also you know the other way kind of helps the teams that are 859 00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,400 kind of local, right, kind of exchange IDs with you know in 860 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,240 terms of like yeah product development, other things that 861 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:08,840 are maybe you know harder to kind of find peers in sort of 862 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,640 local markets especially around some of these very specific use 863 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,680 cases. So yeah, that's that's been 864 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,400 that's been fun to see. How do you Foster and engage 865 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,760 with your local communities? I imagine that, I mean you are 866 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,600 both, you know, global northern Earth, so kind of how how do you 867 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,280 build communities in those places? 868 00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:33,960 Look, a lot of it happens at events, community events, sort 869 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,320 of, you know, nothing is replacing some person. 870 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,800 I think in many ways American. I joke about this, But the 871 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,720 pandemic I think has probably, you know. 872 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,840 Put us, you know back, you know, kind of definitely quite a bit, 873 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,800 right. Because in in those years it was 874 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,120 impossible kind of to travel right and and and spend time 875 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:56,760 with with commutes on the ground. 876 00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,560 But I mean, personally, I try to spend time, you know, going 877 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,040 going to meet with kind of local entrepreneurs and like even kind 878 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,240 of see how the products that they're building being used and 879 00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:11,480 just try to stay as close to that as possible. 880 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,200 Because I think it does help, you know, when you talk to 881 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,320 enough entrepreneurs and they tell you kind of their honest 882 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,560 opinion of what needs to improve for them to be successful, 883 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,960 right. That kind of gets you the 884 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,440 clarity on sort of the more infrastructure level, right? 885 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,440 What are some of the things that are not, you know, that that 886 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,800 maybe you can help sort of move, move on, right. 887 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,000 And so that's kind of how things like Social Connect or Fiat 888 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,600 Connect, which is you know protocol for helping people on 889 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,320 and off ramp more easily in in these different markets. 890 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,800 Have come about and and that's I think something that you're only 891 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,840 I think do get a sense for if you do spend a lot of times with 892 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,160 the the builders in in local markets. 893 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,720 And I assume you kind of you have community people that are 894 00:56:55,720 --> 00:57:00,240 employed by the foundation or one of your companies kind of 895 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,720 like in in in those local communities, right? 896 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,400 We do, yeah. I mean a lot of the team members 897 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,360 also that are working you know at Sea Labs or Valora or 898 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,560 Foundation or Mentor, you know some of the kind of early 899 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,280 ecosystem projects are also based you know kind of all over 900 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,120 the world. So there's there's also a lot of 901 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:22,080 that kind of expertise. But I'll personally say I, you 902 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,600 know I try to spend as much time as possible with with with 903 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,320 founders and ecosystem and you know I think that's been, that's 904 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,200 been really I think for me the best way to stay up to date on 905 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,840 what's happening. You just mentioned Mento and 906 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,800 reminded me that last week you guys announced that there's 907 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,120 going to be a mental Dao spin out. 908 00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:44,400 Tell us about that. Let's. 909 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,120 Get into it. Yes, I mean for people that have 910 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:52,200 followed Salo for you know since the early days, they may 911 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,080 remember that through on chain governance a series of stable 912 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:01,120 coins were were launched still a dollar so euro so real. 913 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,680 And you know that's become definitely one of the 914 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,880 differentiating factors for the ecosystem. 915 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,800 And I think we've been very fortunate that there that 916 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,200 there's been a team that's basically said hey, you know we 917 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,560 want to go and and grow this much more quickly than you know. 918 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,160 I think it's otherwise would be possible as just kind of a 919 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,600 public good under the sort of general ecosystem umbrella and 920 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,600 basically. Created a proposal or a kind of 921 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,760 a process for for taking this protocol and really making it 922 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,640 stand alone. And yeah, very kind of recently 923 00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,720 just I think it was Scout last week or so the team has put 924 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,200 forward a proposal to kind of start talking about how they 925 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:50,600 envision governance to transition from from Sello to 926 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,200 kind of a sort of a mental token to to to do that. 927 00:58:54,840 --> 00:59:00,720 So pretty exciting to see. You know in a sense of taking 928 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,160 some of these things that you know initially maybe we're kind 929 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,960 of smaller features that may tell or unique that are becoming 930 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,320 protocols in their own right. And I think you know because of 931 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,640 that are able to have a much more ambitious you know kind of 932 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:19,480 agenda and potentially impact on the broader ecosystem as a 933 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,120 result. So that's that's been that's 934 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,640 been really exciting to see. Yeah, especially just thinking 935 00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,040 about this in the form of just Dow governance, right. 936 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,600 I think having a a potential Dow spin out, I think it's just an 937 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,160 exciting, exciting thing to be happening. 938 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,360 And so, yeah, I'm just eagerly awaiting next steps on on that. 939 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,240 It's pretty cool. Yeah, super quick. 940 00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:47,200 So you guys have been around with Sello for say, 6 or so 941 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,920 years. Where where do you hope to be in 942 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,960 six years from now? Wow. 943 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:59,000 Probably still working on Sello. I, I, I really I I do feel 944 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,800 there's was every sort of you know inflection point in terms 945 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,680 of the technology or you know quality ecosystem scoring. 946 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,200 I think there's, you know you kind of you it's like you're 947 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,680 climbing a mountain and then you kind of you get to the point and 948 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,880 you're like oh man, there's all these kind of new pathways to 949 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:20,040 explore and like different ways to grow and and so I I really, I 950 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,880 mean our. I think we talked about this in 951 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:28,200 the past, right. Sort of the cello as a as a name 952 01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,640 comes from Esperanto means purpose. 953 01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,720 And you know we early on, one of the first things we did even 954 01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,960 before writing a line of code was to sit down and write down 955 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,800 you know kind of mission for what we wanted to build and a 956 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,520 set of values. And I think that is really 957 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:51,000 created a lot of space for within that what Sello can be, 958 01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,720 right. And of course now it's no longer 959 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,840 just the two of us and separate our Co founder and some of the 960 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,760 early team but it's it's a whole community, right. 961 01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,720 And so a lot of the stuff we kind of get for free on 962 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,080 whatsoever people are sending as much as hey I built this on 963 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:04,080 Sello and it's like wow. Yeah. 964 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,280 This is like so cool. I don't think we would have ever 965 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,040 gotten to this right. So that's nice to see. 966 01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,400 But I think there's still a lot of white space, right, in terms 967 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,600 of if we if we take sort of prosperity for all that sort of 968 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:20,040 the guiding mantra, you know that that kind of mean a lot 969 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,720 more things than the things we're able to execute on today, 970 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,000 right. And I think that's that's really 971 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,560 exciting because I think the metric that is probably at least 972 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,560 talked about in these things is sort of the the brain trust you 973 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,200 can build around the project and an and sort of the ecosystem, 974 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,400 right. And I I think about like some 975 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,360 whatever, you know, recently we were kind of going deep down the 976 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,920 rabbit hole on on this side. And I just, you know, happened 977 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,720 to be in our community space here in Berlin. 978 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:52,800 And I was like there was a founder and I was like, hey, 979 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,560 have you talked, have you looked at this and you know, like, Oh 980 01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,560 yeah, you know, here's some ideas and immediately pointed me 981 01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,000 to some kind of other things. And it's kind of like it's 982 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:07,680 incredible to see how much more quickly one can move as an 983 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,040 ecosystem on some of these pretty hard, difficult kind of 984 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,120 concepts and ideas, right. And some of these things may 985 01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,360 take years to get to full fruition, right. 986 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,160 But it's possible when you have kind of a mission aligned group 987 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,800 of people that are all sort of in a way like oriented around 988 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,040 the same kind of shared set of goals. 989 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,600 And so, yeah, six years from now probably you know like yeah 990 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,680 working on things that's hopefully expand sort of what 991 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,760 what Sello can can mean in terms of bringing more prosperity to 992 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,440 more people. But probably also some very, you 993 01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,480 know like stupid things that we thought would be solved by that. 994 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,480 You know I mean I back six years and we're like OK on off ramping 995 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:50,240 seems. Pretty easy. 996 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,640 Ultralight Lines seems pretty hard, right. 997 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,920 And I guess what we're still we're still tackling on off 998 01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,320 ramping, right. So I think that's sometimes also 999 01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,600 hard to predict, but I think a lot of you know whatever it is, 1000 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,520 it will be under sort of that kind of general umbrella of the 1001 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,680 the Mission North Star. Maybe just to offer my take. 1002 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:12,120 People are are frequently surprised to hear that Tron is 1003 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:16,280 is the number one chain by daily active users and and they do 1004 01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:20,080 that primarily because there's a lot of payments happening with 1005 01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:26,080 Heather on Tron globally. And so my sincere hope for this 1006 01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:30,440 whole ecosystem and for the Ethereum ecosystem is that, you 1007 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,800 know, we can reclaim that, the Ethereum ecosystem can reclaim 1008 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,480 that top spot and you know that seller can be the L2. 1009 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:43,560 That where you know that that type of payment activity is 1010 01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,680 happening. We're already seeing a lot of 1011 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,760 that happening on Solo. I think we're frequently a top 1012 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:54,000 ten chain by daily active users. But let's work together as an 1013 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,760 Ethereum ecosystem and and take the the top spot. 1014 01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,360 And we don't need to wait five years for that. 1015 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:05,040 We can do it sooner. That's a lovely closing remark. 1016 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,280 Where can people go and find out more about Cello, how to build 1017 01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:14,080 on you how to kind of use products that I build on Cello 1018 01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,680 or kind of just get involved with the community. 1019 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:24,520 I mean definitely celloorg.org. So our website for the 1020 01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:29,200 ecosystem, Twitter as well, I think it's sort of form where 1021 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,400 the, you know we try to kind of capture things that are 1022 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:37,520 happening in the ecosystem. There's regular community you 1023 01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,760 know kind of meetings some of them kind of organized by the 1024 01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:45,000 community usually at most of the major conferences there's you 1025 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,280 know I TM conferences, there's going to be some event or meet 1026 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,280 up as well. I would my recommendation would 1027 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,600 be if you're someone who's interested in Sello or getting 1028 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,800 involved in the ecosystem just yeah find out where the next 1029 01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:00,200 event is and show up or or ping someone you know in the 1030 01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,400 community of founder even. I think there's so many touch 1031 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,120 points and I think I'm you know happy to vouch for you know 1032 01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,280 really you know the ecosystem founders that they're all a 1033 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,960 friendly bunch and you know will be very happy to chat and and 1034 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,440 and sort of give their perspective and and and help and 1035 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,200 support new people coming into the space. 1036 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:26,360 And yeah, I think those are probably the sort of more 1037 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,360 general things. I do probably also want to plug 1038 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,320 Unplugged which Merrick you you started with Kobe a while back 1039 01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:40,920 just to share updates on the progress around the L2 work and 1040 01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:45,680 you know where you're sort of bringing folks on to to give 1041 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,440 sort of more detailed kind of tech deep dives on on some of 1042 01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:51,760 the you know the kind of the different areas kind of across 1043 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,200 that that stack that is being considered. 1044 01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,360 And I think I mean I I even like every time I listen in one of 1045 01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,960 those I I learn, I learn something. 1046 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,080 So highly recommend that even you know if you're not just 1047 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:06,640 interested in seller, but just generally following L2 sort of 1048 01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,880 developments in the broader ecosystem. 1049 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,080 Super cool. Thank you both for coming on 1050 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:13,680 towards. Super interesting. 1051 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:15,920 Thank you. Thank. 1052 01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:17,560 You. Yeah. 1053 01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:19,040 Thanks for having us. This was amazing. 1054 01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:23,320 I love the questions. Thank you for joining us on this 1055 01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,680 week's episode. We release new episodes every 1056 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,720 week. You can find and subscribe to 1057 01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:31,480 the show on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, or wherever 1058 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,880 you listen to podcasts. And if you have a Google Home or 1059 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,640 Alexa device, you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of 1060 01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,600 the Epicenter podcast. Go to epicenter.tv/subscribe for 1061 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,320 a full list of places where you can watch and listen. 1062 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,240 And while you're there, be sure to sign up for the newsletter so 1063 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,560 you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released. 1064 01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,880 If you want to interact with us guest or other podcast 1065 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:52,520 listeners, you can follow us on Twitter. 1066 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:54,360 And please leave us a review on iTunes. 1067 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:56,880 It helps people find the show and we're always happy to read 1068 01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,240 them. So thanks so much and we look 1069 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:00,400 forward to being back next week.