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This is epicenter episode 406 
with guest Dominic Williams. 

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Welcome to epicenter the podcast
where we interview crypto, 

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Founders, Builders and thought 
leaders. 

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I'm Frederick ants. 
And I'm here with Martin carbon 

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as a special guest co-host. 
Today, we're speaking with 

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Dominic Williams, Chief 
scientist, and founder of 

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divinity, Divinity, builds the 
internet computer, a layer one, 

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smart contract, enable 
blockchain, that achieves, 

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remarkable scaling properties 
the way. 

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That the internet computer does 
that is through native shotting.

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They call it somewhat 
differently but that's basically

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what it is. 
The compromise they end up 

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making is that the security 
guarantees are not as strong as 

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on bitcoin or etherium, 
requiring, some trust in a 

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majority of validators. 
But before we talk with Dominic 

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about Affinity, let me tell you 
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safe. 
Dominic you are the founder of 

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divinity and you have been on 
this podcast before I looked it 

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up and was almost five years 
ago. 

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So it's super good to actually 
have you back. 

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I think seeing that had. 
It's been quite a while. 

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I think it would warrant to have
a fresh interaction on you. 

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So Dominic Williams, who are 
you? 

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Well firstly, it's very good to 
be back. 

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I think it's just over four and 
a half years since I was last on

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your show and you know I'm 
working on exactly the same 

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thing today that I was then back
then it was just called 

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Affinity. 
Today the network is called the 

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internet computer and the 
foundation is still called 

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affinity and of course definity 
stands for decentralized 

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Infinity. 
You just, you know, remove some 

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letters and stick them together.
And you get the word affinity 

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and the objective which was 
really first. 

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Formulated in 2015, was to 
really implement this idea of a 

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world computer a blockchain that
would be fast and have infinite 

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capacity, or at least its 
capacity could be scaled without

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limit as needed. 
And I'm, you know, that's what 

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we produced. 
It was, you know, tough job took

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many years. 
That's probably introduced 

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several years more than I 
expected but you know, I'm 

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pleased to say with three months
into the fully operational, 

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public, internet, computer 
blockchain network and it's 

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going very well. 
So I mean it's been quite a 

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while. 
So what was so challenging about

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it? 
Well, I mean there's another way

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of looking at that, right? 
Which is why do no other 

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blockchains scale as yet even 
though everyone recognizes that 

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it's desirable to scale and the 
capacity for smart contracts but

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to date, nobody can scale smart 
contracts, blockchains are slow 

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and inefficient. 
And there's some other things 

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that the internet computer can 
do that other networks caught 

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match yet such as serving 
interactive web. 

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So smart contracts on the 
internet computer can actually 

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service HTTP calls which gives 
you an idea, you know, a measure

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of the enormous progress that's 
been made and to deliver 

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something like this. 
You you have to rethink 

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blockchain architecture and 
blockchain science from the 

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ground up and you also actually 
have to develop a lot of Novel 

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cryptography. 
So you can't, you know, just go 

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into the existing cryptography 
toolbox and say, I'll take this 

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and that That and plug them all 
together and produce the 

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internet computer. 
You actually have to develop 

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novel cryptography. 
And if you want to do that, you 

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have to, you know, build a team 
of eminent cryptographers and 

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who can create the math and you 
have to find Engineers who are 

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capable of implementing the 
complex schemes, they produce, 

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and so on. 
So even building, you know, a 

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research and development 
organization, capable of 

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implementing. 
This kind of thing takes years. 

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Of course, have to have done the
research and development to. 

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And so that's why why? 
It's taking so long. 

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So, maybe let's talk about what 
definity set out to do. 

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So let's talk about what you 
mean. 

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When you say in her computer, 
and what's wrong with the 

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Internet as it is, and what's 
wrong with web three, Well, it's

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not there's anything wrong with 
it. 

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It's just that, you know, we 
believe there's a lot more 

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potential that blocked 
blockchain can unlock. 

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So I believe in this thing 
called blockchain Singularity 

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and you know I guess I sort of 
started out on this path back in

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2014. 
You know when I heard the 

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expression World computer from 
the theorem folks and wow, you 

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know, wouldn't it be fantastic 
If there really was a world 

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computer and everyone could 
Build everything on it. 

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And you know, inspired me a 
great deal. 

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And then on top of that, you 
know, I began to think very hard

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about the nature of smart 
contracts and I came to the 

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conclusion that small contracts 
are. 

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In fact, a very new, very novel 
and massively Superior Form of 

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software. 
And I realized that given the 

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advantages of small contracts, 
if you could remove the 

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limitations of their 
implementations at the time, and

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today outside of the internet 
computer, then eventually 

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everything would be rebuilt and 
reimagined using smart, 

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contracts and run entirely from 
a blockchain. 

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So, you know, I decided to make 
it my mission to implement this 

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world computer it and not not 
Thinking I mean, like a theory 

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mr. 
Day which can do is sort of a 

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handful of transactions. 
A second that a real world 

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computer that can handle you 
know, if necessary billions of 

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transactions a second run 
efficiently and quickly, scale 

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its capacity upon which we could
re-implement absolutely 

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everything. 
And that's what I mean by 

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blotchy and Singularity. 
So if you think about smart 

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contracts for a moment, Outside 
of the context of Legacy block 

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chains which are very limited. 
First of all, of course, smart 

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contracts software runs on a, an
open public network which in 

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itself is an advantage, actually
much better to run on on a 

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public network than on Amazon 
web services or Google or 

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Microsoft Azura wherever it is. 
You become a captive customer. 

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So that's the first Advantage 
but there are even more powerful

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advantages. 
Small contracts are 

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tamper-proof. 
You can't hack a smart contract 

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where you can hack a smart 
contract, but it will always run

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as written. 
Okay? 

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Smile contract gives you the 
guarantee that the logic that 

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you've created will always run 
against the correct data. 

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And, of course, you can't 
encrypt a smart contract with 

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ransomware. 
So, this is going to become 

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increasingly important, because 
traditional it is in the process

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of a rolling meltdown. 
You can't make it secure. 

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And we seen problems. 
For example, in recent months, 

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the colonial pipeline hack in 
America, cut off the east coast 

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of America, America's oil supply
and the, the gas refineries ran 

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dry. 
And there were these huge 

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thousand car tailbacks with 
mothers. 

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With young children, sitting in 
line, trying to get some gas for

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their car. 
That was the result of you know,

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the pipeline companies. 
Server machines, being infected 

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with ransomware and and an 
encrypted and eventually they 

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were released after some weeks 
in exchange for a Bitcoin 

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Ransom. 
There was a solar winds hack in 

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that hack, pretty much 
worldwide. 

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Every imaginable form of 
confidential content was stolen 

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and put in the hands of hackers 
on an ad, leave a scale. 

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So there's this rolling meltdown
in security and it just gets 

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worse and worse and inevitably 
the only Around that is to move 

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to block chain where you can 
build a smart contracts which 

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are tamper-proof. 
And because traditional it 

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whenever you build something 
always starts off completely 

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insecure, you start off with a 
web server and a database into 

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this and that and then you know 
you try and make it more secure 

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by surrounding it by firewalls 
and having a security team but 

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that's the wrong way around you.
If you were if you start off 

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with insecure systems and you 
try and make them secure sooner 

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or later something will go wrong
and and they hack or get. 

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In and encrypt all your systems 
with ransomware or still your 

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content. 
So tamper-proof, of course, 

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smaller, contracts are 
unstoppable, and the internet 

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was designed to withstand a 
nuclear strike the internet. 

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Computer blockchain is also 
designed to withstand a nuclear 

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strike. 
So that's a fantastic property 

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and the other one people Miss, 
which I think is probably the 

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perhaps the biggest is smaller, 
contracts are composable. 

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So every small contract can plug
into every other smart contract,

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which creates immense Network 
effects and a small contract is 

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Static software and dynamic 
software. 

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So, small contract if you like 
is is, is static software like 

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the word dot exe file that you 
see on your C drive. 

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But it's also the running Word 
program in which you're editing 

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a document, it's both of these 
things simultaneously. 

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And what that means is you can 
assemble running systems in the 

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same way that you used to 
assemble static software. 

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So in the same way that you 
build software, Statics offer 

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from software libraries, you can
now assemble compose running 

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systems in the same way. 
And every smart contract can 

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connect to every other smart 
contract. 

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And a smart contract can be part
of multiple systems. 

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At once. 
So this is a simply an immense 

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advantage. 
Let me jump in. 

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00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,300
So I I think the listeners if 
our podcasts are completely 

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convinced of the usefulness of 
smart contracts. 

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00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:18,300
And I think also a theory, mm, 
but has demonstrated that there 

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are people willing to pay 
millions. 

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They force the use of smart 
contracts and obviously if well 

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obviously currently it is 
extremely expensive on the 

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theorem to use it in, only 
really kind of a, handful of 

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people can actually use those 
might contract so if you Say, 

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well, we can bring those 
advantages to everyone and kind 

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of scale, it enormously the the 
advantages is obvious. 

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So I'm really looking forward to
now jump into kind of the 

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technical, Deep dive and figure 
out. 

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00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:56,100
Well, how you achieve those, as 
you said earlier, things that 

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lots of other chains are have 
tried to do and so far no one 

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has achieved. 
So, maybe to put things Into 

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perspective at least where I'm 
coming from. 

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And I think many listeners are 
familiar with three other chains

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that etherium polkadot in Cosmos
and kind of my mental model of 

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it is you have aetherium with 
the idea of shared security and 

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then homogeneous execution 
environments and well, we are 

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not fully there yet but you 
could see well they would be the

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sharding and every show it would
run the evm but they are all 

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kind of Yeah. 
Homogeneous. 

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Then you have something like 
polka dot. 

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We say, okay, you have also 
shared security of something 

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like a, they don't, they call 
different but conceptually it's 

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similar to a beacon chain. 
But then you have heterogeneous,

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00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,000
execution environments, and the 
execution environments. 

233
00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:52,800
Yeah, can have their own rules. 
They don't need to be all 

234
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,700
something like evm. 
They, they could have different 

235
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:58,200
rules and then finally you have 
Cosmos which says, okay, there 

236
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,200
are kind of sovereign 
blockchains in. 

237
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,100
They there's a light 
communication protocol between 

238
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:09,000
those So it's blockchains. 
So in that perspective where 

239
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,600
does the internet computer fit? 
So do we have a question? 

240
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,300
We have a shared security. 
Do we have? 

241
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,500
What are the execution 
environments? 

242
00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:19,900
Can you compare it in this way 
of thinking? 

243
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,300
Yeah. 
So you know the internet 

244
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:28,200
computer, of course shares some 
similarities. 

245
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,700
It has a virtual machine within 
which smart contracts run, but 

246
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,700
it's different in many ways and 
actually the differences are 

247
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:44,000
necessary. 
And, you know, it's interesting 

248
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,600
looking at, you know, the 
scaling efforts are many 

249
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,500
existing block chains because 
you realize that The path. 

250
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,900
The path they're pursuing, won't
lead them to their destination. 

251
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:59,300
They want to reach so I'll give 
you some simple easy to easily 

252
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:04,900
understood examples one is that 
if you want to create a 

253
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:08,300
blockchain that can scale smart 
contracts, the small contracts 

254
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:13,100
need to be asynchronous. 
Okay, which essentially means 

255
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,300
that, you know, I'm a smart 
contract and Martin's a smart 

256
00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:20,500
contract. 
When my code wants to call 

257
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:25,200
Martin's code, it essentially 
packages the function call in a 

258
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,500
message, which, of course, is a 
kind of transaction and files 

259
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:33,700
that. 
And this gets sent across the 

260
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:35,300
network because it, you know, 
the internet if it is a 

261
00:15:35,308 --> 00:15:38,500
blockchain, a block chains will 
get back to how that works. 

262
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:42,100
Securely is very different to 
other systems with similar 

263
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,400
visions. 
And, you know, Martin small 

264
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,700
contract will process the 
function call and produce a 

265
00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:51,000
result and that will be send 
back. 

266
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,700
And, you know, when that 
function result is received by 

267
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:58,100
my smart contract. 
If you like, it's woken up and 

268
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:03,600
it processes it, but at any one 
time, my code can have several 

269
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,800
of these calls to other smaller,
contracts outstanding. 

270
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,900
So Ashley the This has some 
other benefits and then just 

271
00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:17,800
worth mentioning before going 
into the details of parallelism,

272
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,700
but the one of the big benefits 
of this is there's no 

273
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:26,200
re-entrance e and re-entrance e 
is in my view. 

274
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,700
One of the greatest security 
vulnerabilities that theorem 

275
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,100
smart contracts have to deal 
with. 

276
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:38,200
So we all know what happened 
with the Dao in 2060 needed. 

277
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,400
That was exploited by a reaction
c bar. 

278
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:42,300
And they can be very subtle and 
difficult to deal with. 

279
00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:48,000
My conception is of it is, of 
course, they need to be at some 

280
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,900
layer as a chronicity, I mean 
that, that's otherwise, it's a 

281
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:54,600
hundred cleared, it won't scale.
There's no question about it. 

282
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:59,700
The question is on what layer do
you introduce some chronicity so

283
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:05,200
in, for example, Cosmos would 
say, well, within one chain, 

284
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,000
there are synchronous 
asynchronous calls possible. 

285
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,599
But between chains, of course, 
is the communication is 

286
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,099
extraneous. 
And And potentially same with 

287
00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:17,599
the theory eventually that you 
have those shards and within a 

288
00:17:17,608 --> 00:17:20,700
short you can have synchronous 
communication. 

289
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:25,700
So you are saying you are 
pushing your pushing the the 

290
00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:29,700
synchronicity on a smart 
contract level or you call it 

291
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:33,500
canister, right? 
Of course, yes. 

292
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:34,400
Well we call. 
Yeah. 

293
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:39,300
Canister smart contracts and and
for the listeners, the reason we

294
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:44,400
call or nickname are smart 
contracts canisters, is that 

295
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,900
each law contract, implements 
the software actor model and is 

296
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:52,800
in fact, a bundle of webassembly
bytecode and pages of memory 

297
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,000
that are exclusive to that smart
contract. 

298
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,000
And because, you know, it's not 
contract as a bundle of 

299
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,900
webassembly bytecode And memory 
Pages, we call it a canister but

300
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,200
look at, you know, you 
absolutely have to implement 

301
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:16,300
this at the level of the smart 
contracts and the key property 

302
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,500
that you need to implement a 
blockchain is just a term in ISM

303
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:27,600
and the reason people today have
synchronous smart contract 

304
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,800
models, it's nothing to do with 
it being better as to do with it

305
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,700
being complex. 
A crate determinism when you 

306
00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:36,000
introduce a synchrony, that's 
the truth of it. 

307
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,600
So you know if you look at an 
internet computer, subnet 

308
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,200
blockchain, which I suppose, in 
some ways very, very 

309
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,900
approximately equivalent to an 
ethereum shot but it they're 

310
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:49,700
more sophisticated. 
They are no. 

311
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,900
The replicas the nodes are 
processing. 

312
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,500
Numerous small contract, 
computations in parallel but 

313
00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:01,000
they're doing it in a 
deterministic way, so, The 

314
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,300
moment we have a relatively 
simple system that relies upon 

315
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:09,800
introducing determinism in the 
order of messages shuffled back 

316
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,900
and forth between the different 
smart contracts as they run the 

317
00:19:11,908 --> 00:19:16,300
computations, but we'll move to 
full deterministic time. 

318
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:20,100
Slicing in the future, for a 
bunch of reasons, to maximize 

319
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:22,700
the performance and efficiency 
of our nodes. 

320
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,000
And then when one subnet black, 
you know, when it when one 

321
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,500
subnet blockchain hosts, you 
know, a smart contract, a and 

322
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:34,700
it, To send a message to, you 
know, smart contracts shouldn't 

323
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:36,000
be on another subnet Block 
Chain. 

324
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:42,200
Of course, that message goes 
into a serialized Q between the 

325
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,700
subnets and, you know, the 
network provides a guarantee 

326
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:47,500
that if you make a call to 
another spot contract, you 

327
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:51,700
always get the response. 
So I should just be clear to the

328
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:53,700
listeners as well. 
When I talk about measures, I'm 

329
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,100
talking about the network at a 
lower level here. 

330
00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:59,800
I mean a smart contract just 
sees Function calls and function

331
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,900
call results. 
I think I only heard it between 

332
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:06,600
the lines but maybe to make it 
explicit, sounds like you're 

333
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,300
also use, it's very useful thing
to have a separation between 

334
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000
contract execution and kind of a
transaction ordering. 

335
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400
So on some level you use you 
mentioned there's a determinism 

336
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:22,500
achieved on the subnet that says
kind of exactly what is it 

337
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,200
ridiculous. 
All right and then I don't know 

338
00:20:24,208 --> 00:20:28,300
how technical you want to get 
but the there's a sort of each 

339
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,800
you know, node replica poor You 
know, and I'll speak client 

340
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,000
software is implemented in four 
layers at the bottom, there's 

341
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:42,100
Peter P. 
Then there's a stateless 

342
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,500
protocol layer. 
We call the consensus layer but 

343
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,000
it actually does lots of 
different protocols. 

344
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,900
Then there's a message routing 
layer and then above the 

345
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:51,500
message. 
Routing layer, you've got the 

346
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:53,600
execution environment. 
That's where you'll find the 

347
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,300
wasm virtual machine and all of 
the other stuff that creates the

348
00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:02,000
execution environment. 
So the message route, Laughs of 

349
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,900
course can route messages to 
local smart contracts. 

350
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:12,700
I smart contracts executing on 
the same subnet blockchain or it

351
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:15,200
can route them to other subnets 
but yeah, of course. 

352
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,600
It's all deterministic has to 
be. 

353
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,300
It's a blockchain and all done 
in ways that enable that kind of

354
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,600
cryptographic verification that 
is essential to block chain 

355
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:32,000
systems to be performed. 
Let's maybe carry on comparing 

356
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,400
it with your room which I assume
that listeners are most familiar

357
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,200
with. 
So you already said that. 

358
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:43,000
It's a wasn't based system so 
basically each subnet has its 

359
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600
own evm so to speak. 
Oh he was. 

360
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,000
Mmm. 
Is that correct? 

361
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,400
And this is a concept of gas and
not of course. 

362
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,500
So there's a lot of differences.
So it's so first of all, we know

363
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:56,800
we didn't try and use e wasm, 
it's everything within the 

364
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,400
internet computer is new, and 
it's been designed for a 

365
00:21:59,408 --> 00:22:04,000
specific purpose. 
And you know, as I mentioned, 

366
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,600
you know, if you want to create 
a blockchain, the scales, just 

367
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,100
more contracts have to be 
asynchronous and therefore it 

368
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,300
wouldn't have been possible to, 
you know, reuse any existing 

369
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,300
virtual machine. 
So yeah, we do of course, have a

370
00:22:18,308 --> 00:22:20,700
gas model there, instead of it's
not called gasps. 

371
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:24,100
It's called Cycles on the 
internet computer and we also 

372
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:26,700
use something called a reverse 
gas model. 

373
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:30,800
So that means that the small On 
tracks pay for their own 

374
00:22:30,808 --> 00:22:34,000
computation, you know, you 
charge, you know it's like 

375
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,600
filling up a car right? 
You know, the cars burning the 

376
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,900
gas from its fuel tank and when 
it runs out as we filled up 

377
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,100
again, there's a number of 
reasons we do that. 

378
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:45,900
But I mean, most obviously it 
allows blockchain to approximate

379
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,900
some sort of cloud computing 
model and provide much better 

380
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:53,000
user experiences. 
So for instance, you can look at

381
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:59,100
a look at open chat, open, chat 
is a chat system that runs 

382
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:02,700
entirely from the I can get a 
blockchain which I think will 

383
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:05,000
give that the list of some 
measure of the differences here,

384
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,600
right? 
So you know, open chat is 

385
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,000
implemented using smart 
contracts. 

386
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,700
These smart contracts are 
efficient enough and run fast 

387
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:15,500
enough that they can actually 
move chat messages around and 

388
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,700
these small contracts also can 
serve HTTP requests so they 

389
00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:24,000
serve the interactive user 
experience that loads for 

390
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,000
example into your browser window
that enables you as a user to 

391
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,500
send receive. 
The message. 

392
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,400
Now, what's actually happening 
there is is you're 

393
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,300
authenticating yourself using 
this thing called internet 

394
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,900
identity. 
And whenever you interact with 

395
00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:44,700
the backend smart contracts 
they're paying for their own gas

396
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,300
or here cycles. 
And you know can you imagine if 

397
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:50,800
you have forced to use metal 
mask? 

398
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,600
I mean every time you wanted to 
send a transaction to send you 

399
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,900
know a chat message as a 
transaction, right? 

400
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:00,000
So every time you want to set a 
chat message, you'd have to sort

401
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,900
Configure the signature and say 
how much gas you want to say 

402
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,600
with a just, just wouldn't work.
Just doesn't work so it doesn't 

403
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,300
doesn't work. 
Yeah. 

404
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,400
Currently currently clearly a 
theorem predictions are 

405
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,400
something, that is probably well
at least worth a thousand dollar

406
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,200
otherwise not. 
Not that kind of doesn't make 

407
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,400
sense, doesn't make sense to to 
use it because you will pay ten 

408
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,200
fifty dollar. 
Ten to fifty dollars, prediction

409
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,900
fees. 
And of course, if you want to do

410
00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:27,500
something as small as a chat 
message, of course, the the 

411
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,000
model needs to be very 
different. 

412
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,600
So let me, let me summarize. 
So Or at least make a. 

413
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:34,000
All right. 
What do we have so far? 

414
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,500
So we have subnet that are 
somewhat may be comparable to 

415
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:38,700
shards. 
Not exactly. 

416
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:41,600
But somewhat then they run on 
was mmm. 

417
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,900
They have they have them 
canisters that are kind of 

418
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,700
similar to Smart contracts but 
already on that level we have 

419
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:53,100
the assume Christian T. 
So, what is the buff? 

420
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,500
So parent, I mean, I guess 
there, she needs to be something

421
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:01,400
that is holding the subnets 
together and and how does 

422
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,400
communication work on between 
subnets? 

423
00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:11,000
Well said, the one of the most 
important, if not the most 

424
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,300
important innovation in Internet
computer is this thing called 

425
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:18,300
The Chain key system and that 
actually involves novel 

426
00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:23,000
cryptography and it's evolved 
from that original work. 

427
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,000
They used to talk about in 2015.
You know, I was using there are 

428
00:25:26,008 --> 00:25:27,800
many other. 
Well yeah, yeah, I tend to 

429
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,300
Generate random numbers, you 
know, we just kept on burning 

430
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,300
down that you no longer pharaoh 
and it just became more 

431
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:38,000
advanced. 
And so Let's just step back a 

432
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,400
moment and think about some of 
the other challenges that you 

433
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,700
see with existing Legacy 
blockchain architectures, like 

434
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,700
theorem or proposed 
architectures like a theorem 2.0

435
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,400
or haven't spoke architectures 
like polka dot. 

436
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:54,900
So, you know, one of the issues.
So so you know the cop the polka

437
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:59,800
dot concept is that you have 
some Central Hub, blockchain the

438
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,900
charges toll fees and then 
everyone else creates their own 

439
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,000
blockchain. 
A pair of chain. 

440
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,000
Plugs it in. 
So the Hub blockchain and it's 

441
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,500
made easy because they're all 
built, this thing called 

442
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,900
substrate, and then they can 
send messages to each other. 

443
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,100
You know, via the Hub and 
obviously, you know, Gavin would

444
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:20,600
sits there. 
Collecting the toll fee is 

445
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,300
basically a norm, you know. 
So obviously from my 

446
00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:27,100
perspective, I'm very interested
in this idea of a world computer

447
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:30,300
and, you know, if you you don't 
really want a hub and spoke 

448
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,000
architecture, if you want to 
write a well computer, because 

449
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,300
you're going to create a 
bottleneck naturally, The Hub is

450
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,700
a bottleneck, right? 
So that's not a good way of 

451
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:42,100
going and the same problem 
exists with Cosmos to, you don't

452
00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:44,200
want to have to you know, for 
doll trap. 

453
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,300
Vic through a hub. 
But why does the same? 

454
00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:51,000
Why does it the same problem 
exists with the cosmos? 

455
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,300
Because, I mean, you can have 
with the with IBC enabled 

456
00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:57,100
chance. 
You can just have chain two 

457
00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:00,000
chain communication, right? 
You don't need Beacon, Shea. 

458
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,200
And oh, yeah, I think it was it 
was at some point proposed that 

459
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,700
it would go through the have, 
but maybe that's changing my I'm

460
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:08,100
not up to date. 
Maybe they tried. 

461
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,300
Maybe they've seen the error of 
their ways and they're trying to

462
00:27:10,308 --> 00:27:13,700
get rid of the central Hub. 
Yeah, I haven't been following 

463
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:15,200
those projects. 
But look, there's another 

464
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:17,200
Another problem as well, which 
is actually much worse than 

465
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,600
that, and it's that if 
everybody's creating our own 

466
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,000
blockchain, every block chain 
will have a different trust 

467
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,700
model. 
So let's imagine, you know, 

468
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:28,200
Frederick your the polka dot 
Hub. 

469
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:32,200
I'm a, I'm a pair of chain and 
Martin's a parent chain, right? 

470
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,800
So, I learned as a smart 
contract on me, that wants to 

471
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,600
send a message to the smart 
contract on Martin. 

472
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,200
It's okay, so creates the 
message, sort of delivers it to 

473
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:48,300
you predict the pocket, huh? 
You and I pay the toll fee and 

474
00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:51,000
then you take that message and 
you send it to Martin and then 

475
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,400
hopefully Martin processes the 
message and sends it back to. 

476
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,900
You pays the fee and then you 
fall it to me right now. 

477
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:01,100
There are a number of problems 
with this. 

478
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:04,200
The first is that it's no longer
a blockchain. 

479
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:06,700
We've got three different trust 
zones here. 

480
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,700
There's my trust Zone, which is 
based upon, you know, whoever my

481
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,100
validators are and my staking 
system. 

482
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:19,200
As and so on there's frigid, 
you'll do the Harbin. 

483
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:22,700
That's another the second trust 
Zone and then Martin is the 

484
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:27,400
first trussing and it's very 
becomes very difficult to reason

485
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,300
about things, you know? 
So if small contract on me, you 

486
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:35,300
know, wants to call the small 
contractor on Martin. 

487
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,500
Well somehow, the designer of 
that's got to be aware that 

488
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,300
perhaps The Hub might fail or 
well, at least they have to 

489
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,300
understand. 
Um what the mode of operation is

490
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:51,900
for the Hub, can a message be 
delayed and and then, you know 

491
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:53,200
what about Martin? 
I don't know what. 

492
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,500
I don't know anything about his 
trust so and what does Martin 

493
00:28:55,500 --> 00:29:00,400
guarantee that the message that 
I sent is my contract will 

494
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,200
generate a response. 
So this gets very, very 

495
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,600
difficult. 
Not only that, of course that 

496
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,000
begets becomes very clunky for 
smart contract developers. 

497
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,600
You know, if there's a smaller 
contract on me and it wants to 

498
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,600
call a smart contract on Martin,
And it should be very simple, it

499
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,600
should just be, you know, I can 
create a Define that says, you 

500
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,600
know, Define this contract that 
the address of Martin's contract

501
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,700
and I should just be able to go 
this contract. 

502
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:30,700
Cool function, right? 
And process, the result, I 

503
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:33,200
personally see. 
I personally very much see this 

504
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,900
argument for Cosmos. 
I think the theory of Mind 

505
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:39,400
pocket are trying to kind of 
have a shared security model but

506
00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:42,000
maybe switch. 
Yeah, it didn't computer. 

507
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,600
So how does it work? 
Here coding, right. 

508
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,400
It's not just I mean this is the
security model. 

509
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,100
Well, you know, the scale 
abilities. 

510
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,800
The first problem when you when 
you introduce a hub that doesn't

511
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,600
work out too. 
Well, the security becomes a 

512
00:29:53,608 --> 00:29:55,100
mess because you all these 
different trust sounds. 

513
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:58,700
And then, of course, worst of 
all developers are faced with 

514
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:01,400
trying to deal with all these 
complexities themselves and 

515
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,700
sending messages are the 
function of us. 

516
00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:08,000
Although again, here again year 
I think we had to my mind 

517
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,400
setting. 
We have the two approaches with 

518
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:13,100
a theorem that's trying to say, 
well, we always use evm and kind

519
00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:17,000
of have a shared, well, 
homogeneous execution 

520
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,900
environment. 
It seems like you also are going

521
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:22,900
for homogeneous execution 
environment, while in polkadot 

522
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:25,200
they say. 
And of course there are also 

523
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,900
arguments. 
I would say for that to say well

524
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:31,200
different applications need 
different Might might benefit 

525
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,100
from different. 
Yeah. 

526
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:35,000
Something like that. 
Not vm's. 

527
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,900
Yes. 
But shot look. 

528
00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:40,000
I mean going back to you know 
the advantages of smart 

529
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,600
contracts and what got me into 
this in the first place. 

530
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,100
The key advantage of smart 
contracts as they exist within a

531
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:51,800
single seamless universe and, 
you know, one smart contract and

532
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,000
call another smart contract. 
And there's no concept of 

533
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,600
partitions and different trust 
zones. 

534
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,000
And that's why, you know, 
despite despite the 

535
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,900
extraordinary limitations of the
Of the ethereum blockchain 

536
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,100
today. 
It's been immensely successful 

537
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,600
because, you know, people for 
the main create defy contracts 

538
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,500
in systems and then anybody else
can extend them and plug into 

539
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:13,900
them. 
And the network, effects effects

540
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,600
are just immense. 
And that's why despite 

541
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,000
limitations is been so 
successful, even absolute 

542
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,300
tragedy if we went forward with,
you know, Paul cotton Cosmos 

543
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:27,700
star models, where we get rid of
that, great advantage of smart 

544
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:30,500
contracts that they all exist, 
within the single I'd seamless 

545
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:33,700
blockchain environment. 
So it's very important to me 

546
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:37,100
that on the internet computer. 
There's no concept of different 

547
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:39,400
chains and hubs that you have to
send messages to. 

548
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:43,300
And you can see by the way that 
this concept is embedded in 

549
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,600
these Legacy blockchains and 
because they've got synchronous 

550
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,300
smart contract models. 
Now, if you have, for example, a

551
00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:52,000
theorem 2.0 all these shards and
these shards are running, 

552
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,100
synchronous smart contract 
calls. 

553
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:59,700
Well, you know, in the end 
there's always going to have to 

554
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,800
Be some kind of boilerplate that
you use to send messages between

555
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,100
shards, you break, one of the 
most important properties of a 

556
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:10,300
blockchain that the small 
contracts exist within the 

557
00:32:10,308 --> 00:32:12,400
seamless unified environment, 
and there's no concept 

558
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,300
partitions. 
Everything can everything's 

559
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:15,800
composable everything called 
everything else. 

560
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,200
That's one of the most beautiful
things I've ever saw. 

561
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:24,500
Not been coding for 40 years and
to remove that and abandon that 

562
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,300
property. 
It would be a tragedy. 

563
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:30,600
So it's good in how you are 
removing this because So, you 

564
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,800
have different subnets with 
canisters. 

565
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,600
So, how does it work on eaten 
computer? 

566
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,300
How do does Smart contract or 
canister? 

567
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:43,900
Call another smart contractor 
canister on another subnet? 

568
00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:44,900
Yeah. 
So is it? 

569
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:47,700
Yeah, I mean, those are the 
internet computers, very complex

570
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,500
thing. 
But you know, at a high level, 

571
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,600
you know, the network can derive
very efficiently, derive the 

572
00:32:53,608 --> 00:32:57,200
location of a smart contract 
from its identity. 

573
00:32:58,100 --> 00:32:59,800
Kind of its Global position. 
Yeah. 

574
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:00,700
Exactly. 
What shot. 

575
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,400
Not shot some that it's on. 
So basically the position of 

576
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:10,300
each canister is known to each 
other canister in whatever. 

577
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:11,600
Subnet? 
No. 

578
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,600
No, of course not, no. 
The canisters are unaware of the

579
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,200
Southern. 
Yeah. 

580
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,200
Okay. 
What contracts are aware? 

581
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,200
That would be a terrible 
mistake. 

582
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,700
That's what's happening with his
legacy. 

583
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:20,800
All these sort of even know you 
don't want shards and you don't 

584
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,400
want para chains and you don't 
want hubs. 

585
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,300
You look, it's very simple. 
Like, you know, if you're a 

586
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:27,800
small contracts and I'm a smart 
contract, I just called 

587
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:32,200
Functions, that's it, right? 
There's no cut within, you know,

588
00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:36,000
there's no, you know, the level 
of smart contract code. 

589
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,100
There's no cop. 
There's no concept of at Harbour

590
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:41,400
chapter para chain or a shot or 
anything like that. 

591
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,400
It's just a seamless unit 
Universe for comb. 

592
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:50,100
Does it mean that if I deploy a 
canister I don't need to make an

593
00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:51,600
active decision on what's 
happened. 

594
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,100
I go a kind of it will just be 
determined by the system. 

595
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,800
Or is it an conscious decision? 
Yes. 

596
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,900
Oh okay so that's a good 
question and you don't know. 

597
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:02,800
That's correct. 
You don't have to decide where 

598
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,800
it goes. 
Complexities, of course, always 

599
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,699
happen around the edges. 
Not you know, where you have 

600
00:34:08,699 --> 00:34:13,400
very specific requirements. 
So if you are, if you are a 

601
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,199
company and Wanted to implement 
not a defy system, not, you 

602
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:22,400
know, tokenize social media but 
an Enterprise System, your 

603
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:24,199
enterprise system might 
component. 

604
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,800
Be comprised of lots of smart 
contracts and that interact with

605
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,400
each other and it would run 
faster. 

606
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,100
Of course, if all they're smart 
contracts were on the same 

607
00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:36,800
subnet work. 
So we are introducing means that

608
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,600
will allow people to hint. 
They're smart contracts at the 

609
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,699
service ID, and the network will
tend if it can, of course. 

610
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,699
Because it can't guarantee it if
it can, it will co-locate those 

611
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:54,300
small contracts. 
But, you know, that's just an 

612
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,199
optimization thing. 
Like if you're building is great

613
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,100
we're going to persist in and 
out of hundreds of small 

614
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:00,800
contracts, it's going to run 
better if they're all on the 

615
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,900
same subnet work or at least a 
lot of them on the same sort of 

616
00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:04,400
network. 
So we're going to give people 

617
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,400
ways of achieving that but it 
won't be you know, it doesn't 

618
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,300
exist at the the level of the 
code. 

619
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:13,900
Now when you're writing a smart 
kind you could move them apart, 

620
00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:16,000
it was still continue. 
Okay, that makes sense. 

621
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,000
That makes sense, but maybe that
need button here. 

622
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,300
So basically what's the 
difference then between a 

623
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:24,900
transaction between two 
canisters that are on the same 

624
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:28,000
subnet and two canisters that 
are not on the same subnet. 

625
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,000
How do they differ? 
There's no difference. 

626
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,300
So why do you have this Nets? 
And how do you make it such that

627
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:41,900
a canister can call her another 
canister on a different subnet 

628
00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:44,700
equally efficiently or nearly 
equally efficiently? 

629
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,000
Well, so there's a there's a lot
to there. 

630
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,400
So I mean I should probably just
rewind a little bit to what a 

631
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,100
subnet is, a subnet is a 
blockchain. 

632
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,400
And, you know, we call it the 
purpose. 

633
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,700
The internet computer is to 
achieve a blocking Singularity, 

634
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,100
so we want everything rebuilt 
reimagined on blockchain, so it 

635
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:06,100
has to run very efficiently. 
So we actually recycle 

636
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:09,900
deterministic deterministic 
centralization which means that 

637
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,800
what we call node providers, 
people running a special node 

638
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,600
machines identify themselves and
the Governance system with an 

639
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,600
era of the internet computers 
called the network nervous 

640
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,700
system. 
Essentially combines nodes to 

641
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:26,400
create new subnet block chains, 
which add capacity, it combines 

642
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,400
nodes observing. 
This decentralization hierarchy 

643
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,700
which is first of all node 
provider naturally. 

644
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,800
I mean let's say you created a 
subnet blockchain with 16 nodes.

645
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,900
Say if all 16 nodes came from 
the same node provider and that 

646
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,000
no provider turned evil or went 
bankrupt, obviously the subnet 

647
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,000
would break so that's no good. 
So the first, you know, the 

648
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,700
first First the top of the 
decentralization hierarchy is 

649
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:50,500
the no provider. 
You want the nodes to come from 

650
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:51,000
different? 
No. 

651
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Priors. 
Second is data center. 

652
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:58,900
You know, it's all very well, 
you know, combining nodes from 

653
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:02,400
16 independent node providers. 
But if all those nodes are in 

654
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,400
the same Data Center and the 
data center blows up. 

655
00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:07,700
Well, that's not much good 
either, right? 

656
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:12,100
So then so there's no provider 
Data Center and then geography 

657
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,500
now actually, we care a lot 
about this because the something

658
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:18,600
for example called Anna, 
Electromagnetic pulse sounds 

659
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,000
far-fetched but it's not. 
There was one. 

660
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,800
I think in 1875 is called the 
Carrington event. 

661
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,300
Something you have to look it up
on Wikipedia, get the correct 

662
00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:27,300
date. 
That is around then and it was 

663
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:31,200
created by a solar flat and you 
know in the hot spots where this

664
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,500
thing, you know, hit the earth, 
it would wipe out data centers. 

665
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:38,300
In fact, it would cause an awful
lot of damage to Information 

666
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:41,400
Technology generally. 
So you don't want all your data 

667
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,400
centers in the same geography. 
And by the way, I think it was, 

668
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,200
again, you can look this up at 
the 2009. 

669
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:48,400
Nine. 
A solar flare of a similar 

670
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600
magnitude to the one that caused
the kangan event passed through 

671
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:53,500
Earth's orbit and we missed it 
by three days. 

672
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,700
So and there are other ways, you
know electromagnetic, pulses 

673
00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,100
could be credit. 
For example, you can detonate a 

674
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,700
nuclear bomb in the App Store 
and all kinds of things. 

675
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,800
So and we're climate change. 
Introduced it infrastructure 

676
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:04,800
bill. 
Yeah, that's right. 

677
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,300
Exactly, yes, that's right. 
All kinds of things can go 

678
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:09,000
wrong. 
So we want to make sure things 

679
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,000
are geographically, dispersed or
actually. 

680
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,300
This is the fourth one not in 
its jurisdiction. 

681
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:17,400
So you could say, well, you 
know, One I just want to know. 

682
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,500
Okay independent no providers in
a you know independent data 

683
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:23,100
centers and the data centers are
all dispersed to the four 

684
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:24,700
corners of Europe. 
Well guess what? 

685
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,200
These states are all member the 
EU and there's a possibility, 

686
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,700
they could ban blockchain. 
So actually you don't want to do

687
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,300
that either. 
You know you you want to make 

688
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:37,100
sure you've got some nodes from 
Amsterdam and Zurich and you 

689
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:39,600
know you know computer per se 
and you also want to get include

690
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,100
some notes from places like 
Singapore and America. 

691
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,600
So you've got this hierarchy you
know no provider data center 

692
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,800
geography. 
Restriction, that's how, that's 

693
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,400
how nodes are combined. 
And by using deterministic to 

694
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,700
centralization, which does, of 
course, you don't make the 

695
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:56,300
sacrifice that the people 
running these machines are 

696
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:58,700
identified. 
That's the sacrifice, that's the

697
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:00,500
trade-off. 
The advantage though, is that 

698
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,300
you can create much higher 
levels of security and 

699
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:06,900
resilience with much smaller 
numbers of nodes. 

700
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,500
And so, first of all, these 
nodes independent nodes are 

701
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:14,100
combined to create these subnet 
blockchains. 

702
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,900
Now, the into as Internet The 
grows. 

703
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:20,200
I mean, you know, in a few years
you could see 100,000 subnets or

704
00:39:20,207 --> 00:39:23,800
something, how on Earth you 
couldn't teach any? 

705
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,400
Subnets are talking to each 
other directly. 

706
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,800
There's just no way of course. 
And that, each subnet could be 

707
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,900
aware of the data on the other 
subnets impossible. 

708
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,500
So we use something called chain
key, cryptography. 

709
00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:40,900
One of the, this is one of the 
biggest Innovations in the 

710
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,400
internet computer. 
So, for example today, you know,

711
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,500
when you build a Dap typically, 
you know, on it with if you're 

712
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,600
not building etherium dab, of 
course, the website the 

713
00:39:49,607 --> 00:39:51,600
interactive component runs on 
the cloud. 

714
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,100
So you know, theorem dap to be 
clear is not fully decentralized

715
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,500
because you run the website on 
the cloud, then it will talk 

716
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,500
typically to don't have to, but 
it will not, it went 99% do, 

717
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:08,100
then it talks to in fuhrer, 
which are etherium nodes running

718
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:10,400
on Amazon web services run by 
consensus. 

719
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,700
But if you wanted to, at least 
you could run your own etherium 

720
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,900
node and that thing basically A 
Slave people mistake, the 

721
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,000
theorem nodes and Bitcoin nodes 
for the centralization there. 

722
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,400
Nothing to do at a 
centralization, their slaves, 

723
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,600
that consumed the blockchain 
produced by the block makers, 

724
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,200
which typically a mining pools 
in the case of Bitcoin ethereum.

725
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,300
So they consume the blockchain 
and they keep a copy of it. 

726
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,700
And typically, what you do is 
you interact with that with 

727
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:35,400
that, local copy. 
Now, what does that mean? 

728
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,800
It means that if, you know, if 
you have a local Bitcoin or 

729
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,300
etherium node, you can you can 
because you're running the local

730
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:46,900
node, you can trust trust it and
you can interact with That too, 

731
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,300
as a source of Truth, regarding 
the state of the blockchain. 

732
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,800
So the put the challenge there 
is that if I am creating a Dap 

733
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,800
and I don't want to just I'm 
already my websites on the cloud

734
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,500
and if I don't want to now 
interact with in fuhrer, which 

735
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:03,500
is just more you know, is all on
Amazon web services and its 

736
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:06,200
concerns. 
If I want to run my own node to 

737
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,200
be more decentralized these, so 
I've got my own local source of 

738
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,200
true that's going to download 
the etherium state, modern. 

739
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,300
What is it right now? 
What is what is it today? 

740
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,600
I run a note. 
It's probably 500 gigabytes. 

741
00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:23,800
Okay, so you get a download 500 
gigabytes and is really worse 

742
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,200
than that, in reality. 
It's going to download all the 

743
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,900
old blocks going to replay them.
It's going to be awfully 

744
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,700
computational expensive and you 
got to check out the hashing and

745
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:31,500
everything else. 
Okay? 

746
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:35,400
So yeah, it's an awful lot of 
data and a lot of computation 

747
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,400
probably. 
In fact it would take you your 

748
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,600
node a day or two to catch up 
with the theorem chain so by 

749
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,500
contrast yeah a few more people 
are getting. 

750
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:45,800
There you go. 
So by contrast in order to 

751
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:50,600
interact with an internet 
computer, subnet blockchain In 

752
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,900
order to know that the subnet 
blockchain is correct and in 

753
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:57,700
order to know that your 
interactions with that 

754
00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:04,000
blockchain are cracked, all you 
need is a 48 B, chain key, 

755
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,500
that's it. 
So we've gone from the need to 

756
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,900
download 500 GB to a local node 
before you can start interacting

757
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:16,300
with etherium say or anything on
a theorem chart, we've gone from

758
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:20,400
that situation to one where you 
only have to have this 48 by 

759
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:23,500
Light chain key and that's chain
key cryptography. 

760
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:28,000
It's absolutely revolutionary 
and changes the whole and 

761
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,100
meaning, but I've locked and 
that's how I shards can 

762
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:32,800
interact. 
Sorry, not sure Hots up that can

763
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,100
interact directly with each 
other. 

764
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,000
They don't need to have copies 
of each other's blocks, and they

765
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,000
also don't need there to be 
trusted validators and bridges, 

766
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,600
which of course, is completely 
insecure. 

767
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,600
And as we've just seen with is 
it, what's the defy thing that 

768
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,200
just went wrong today? 
The ploy Network, what do you 

769
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,600
know, Polly Network. 
Yeah, it's probably yeah. 

770
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,300
I know move stuff between 
mattock and ethereum and finance

771
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:58,800
matching table or something. 
Yeah, it's a just so that's 

772
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,300
owned by net. 
So you don't want to do that. 

773
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,600
I mean we don't want to 
introduce trusted validators and

774
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:03,800
bridges. 
We just want to have 

775
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:07,300
cryptographic security and 
that's why we have this chain 

776
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:10,300
gear system, but it makes it 
possible for subnet to interact 

777
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:12,800
with each other at just directly
without having to see each 

778
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,400
other's blocks and absolutely 
what uncorks the whole thing. 

779
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,100
But you're comparing apples and 
oranges to a certain extent, 

780
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:23,300
right? 
So basically, it's kind of like,

781
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,200
if you're traveling in furor, in
a way, it's just like having 

782
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,700
more in furor. 
So more trusted, third parties 

783
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:33,800
that you trust to have a. 
Well, I think, I think that's 

784
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,200
currently the point that changed
that you've cropped, right? 

785
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,200
Cryptographic proofs that don't 
discuss that, you don't have to 

786
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,900
trust. 
So basically, it's basically the

787
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,500
compare the comparison with 
running your node is somewhat 

788
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:50,100
somewhat 40, right? 
But Let me get back to my core 

789
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:52,300
question. 
So basically, if I'm a can of 

790
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:54,600
soda on one chain, how do I use 
this? 

791
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,700
What's it called? 
Key chain gear on YouTube now, 

792
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:01,300
become a knight or how do I use 
it to find Martin on a different

793
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:03,900
subnet will? 
But the report on, just just 

794
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:08,000
really clear what the question. 
You're asking, is presupposing 

795
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,000
that, you know, the internet 
Computer Works in the way, these

796
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,900
Legacy, blockchains do with 
shards and hubs, and things like

797
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,200
that. 
Just look. 

798
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,600
I mean, I'll be absolutely 
Frank. 

799
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,300
I think there's architectures 
are Awful and very misguided. 

800
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:23,300
It, the whole advantage of smart
contracts. 

801
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:25,800
Or one of the key advantages of 
smart contracts is that they 

802
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:33,200
exist within a single seamless 
unified Universe, you know, I'm 

803
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,700
a smart contract, you're a smart
contract. 

804
00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:36,500
I want to interact with you or 
just call your function. 

805
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,500
There shouldn't be any concept 
of different subnets, or chains,

806
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:42,500
and hubs. 
And shards, this is ridiculous. 

807
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,700
So, on the internet computer 
contracts are completely unaware

808
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:48,800
of the actual Kings of the 
network. 

809
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,500
It's not what, what you're 
describing. 

810
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,800
So this is a very common thing 
in blockchain people. 

811
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:59,800
Look at the limitations of the 
cryptography involved and the 

812
00:44:59,808 --> 00:45:03,900
architectures involved and they 
extrapolate from the limitations

813
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:06,100
features. 
People actually sometimes begin 

814
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:09,200
to think that the limit, you 
know, the these shortcomings 

815
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,500
become a features are not, 
there's absolutely nothing no 

816
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,500
Advantage. 
When you write a smart contract 

817
00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:17,600
and you want to interact, 
another smart contract in. 

818
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:20,800
You're needing to know on what 
chard that other smart contract.

819
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,900
Is this is a very bad design. 
Obviously, like coge. 

820
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,800
My contract bills, interact, 
your contract and, and know 

821
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,700
nothing about the underlying 
Network architecture. 

822
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,500
Dominic, I have to say it still 
sounds a little bit like magic. 

823
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:38,400
And I'm trying to kind of bring 
it to Concepts. 

824
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,300
I kind of understand, I think it
could be maybe similar. 

825
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,800
So, what I do understand is that
there are, for example, of 

826
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,500
course, what you describe is 
absolutely true. 

827
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:54,600
It takes well actually took me. 
I'm on my fifth day of currently

828
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,700
sinking in the theorem note and 
still sinking and well. 

829
00:45:58,700 --> 00:46:01,700
Yeah, that that That's how it is
currently. 

830
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:06,000
And I understand there are 
promising, new ideas and maybe 

831
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,600
you have already achieved that 
to completely, get rid of that. 

832
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:13,400
So this concept I know is is one
concept. 

833
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:18,200
I know our zero-knowledge proofs
that you kind of make a proof 

834
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,900
that the state transition was 
correct and you can maybe even 

835
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:24,000
do recursive zero-knowledge 
proofs so that you in the end 

836
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,000
just have to kind of check the 
final proof and that kind of 

837
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,900
gives you a recursive or 
through. 

838
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:31,900
Vision. 
The idea that all previous state

839
00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:34,800
transitions are correct. 
So that is one concept. 

840
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,200
I could imagine how that works. 
Is that related to that? 

841
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,100
Or I mean, you say it's a key. 
I mean, first of all, a 

842
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:44,700
signature as a kind of zero, 
knowledge proof in a way, right?

843
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:48,000
You're sort of proving that, you
know, you've got it, you hold a 

844
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,500
private key. 
That is that corresponds to the 

845
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:53,000
public Key by producing a 
signature. 

846
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,700
And the signature is that proof 
like without showing my private 

847
00:46:56,700 --> 00:46:58,000
key. 
I'm showing to you that I have 

848
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:03,400
one that corresponds publicly. 
So, So yeah, I mean optimistic 

849
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:04,900
Roll-Ups and all that kind of 
stuff. 

850
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:07,000
I think again it's just a red 
herring. 

851
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,600
It's not the way to go is just 
introducing yet more complexity.

852
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,400
I don't believe in these latter 
two solutions, I don't believe 

853
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,100
in optimistic Roll-Ups or any of
these things. 

854
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:18,800
I just think that's more 
contracts should just run 

855
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,400
quickly and efficiently and with
an unbounded capacity, right? 

856
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,700
Then maybe try to give us an 
idea of how this is work. 

857
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:31,200
So you said, you said I don't 
need to You have my full note, I

858
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,300
can immediately verify from very
little data that all computation

859
00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:37,300
are kind of all state changed 
was done. 

860
00:47:37,300 --> 00:47:40,100
So, so how does it work at a 
high level? 

861
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:44,100
So of course, it's all derived 
from Treasure cryptography, as 

862
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:46,700
usual? 
Yeah, the project hasn't 

863
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:48,100
changed. 
It's just become more advanced 

864
00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:51,200
and, you know, it's a subnet 
blockchain. 

865
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:58,400
Recall is composed, you know, 
runs on a set of nodes that are 

866
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,300
independent and have been 
assigned by the network nervous 

867
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:05,100
system, which is the kind of 
sort of government government 

868
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:07,100
system that runs with it 
governance system that runs 

869
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:08,700
within the internet computers 
protocols. 

870
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:15,800
So you know a subnet it 
comprises of these nodes and the

871
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,600
nodes have identities and when 
they're put together they run a 

872
00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:24,200
setup. 
Procedure in concert with no 

873
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,900
nervous system and their shared 
public key. 

874
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,700
The chain key, which is 
essentially a BLS special. 

875
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:35,900
Key is added to this thing 
called the registry by the 

876
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:41,700
network nervous system. 
And that means that the chain, 

877
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,700
you know, depending how its 
configured. 

878
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:47,600
So it's super majority of the 
nodes in that chain can 

879
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:53,200
collaborate to sign something. 
So, now before moving on, of 

880
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,500
course, BLS is a standard, you 
know, cryptography, skins, very 

881
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:01,400
well-known. 
Of course, been Lynn works 

882
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,100
definity. 
He's one of the inventors and 

883
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,800
though, down, Bonnie, well, he's
be the bee, but, you know, 

884
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,000
alone. 
It's not nearly sufficient to 

885
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,600
create the change key system. 
So, you know, blockchains have 

886
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,200
Dynamic membership. 
So, you need things that let me,

887
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,000
let me, let me jump in here 
because there are two very 

888
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,100
important distinctions. 
There is, there's one verifying 

889
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:27,000
signatures and saying, kind of, 
well, this was signed by at 

890
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,800
least, two thirds, or maybe even
80% of the Shareholders. 

891
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:34,000
And that I can totally 
understand that. 

892
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,200
That can be I mean layered and 
and some that that's work but 

893
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,000
that's different from giving you
a guarantee. 

894
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,000
I mean, what would you do if you
run the full? 

895
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,200
Not only theorem you are not 
just verifying the signatures or

896
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,600
verifying the proof of work if 
you would only do that. 

897
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,900
Well then it will actually be 
quite fast. 

898
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,000
What you are actually doing. 
Is you are you are doing the all

899
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,200
the computational tools, the 
computations yourself at 

900
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,100
verifying that the computations 
are the correct? 

901
00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:03,200
So, Ask directly, are you 
guaranteeing that the 

902
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,200
computations are correct? 
Or are you guaranteeing that the

903
00:50:06,207 --> 00:50:09,400
specific thresholds of 
signatures was reached? 

904
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,200
And that could mean that, if, if
80% are compromised, they could 

905
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,200
sign wrong State because that 
those are two different. 

906
00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:17,800
Yeah, sure. 
We different from absolutely. 

907
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,500
So I mean first thing people 
remember is there's a thing 

908
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:23,400
called Byzantine fault 
tolerance. 

909
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:29,100
And sometimes in blockchain we 
get you know, a little bit 

910
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:32,300
muddled. 
You know, there's a lot of 

911
00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:36,600
jargon and Woolly thinking and 
look, I mean, you have to base 

912
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,300
systems like this on 
mathematics. 

913
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,100
And if you base things on 
mathematics and the designs are 

914
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:44,600
mathematics, you can verify and 
create, you know, that your 

915
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,600
designs work correctly with 
mathematical proofs. 

916
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:51,100
So Byzantium fault, tolerance 
course, refers to the model 

917
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:54,500
where you assume that some 
proportion of participants are 

918
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:58,300
faulty and politic means they 
can behave arbitrarily. 

919
00:50:58,300 --> 00:51:02,100
And that's why Called Byzantium,
and they can also that that 

920
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:05,400
includes colluding to break the 
system. 

921
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:11,600
So you know, internet computer 
subnets are Byzantine fault 

922
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,500
tolerant that is based upon the 
mathematics mathematical 

923
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:19,900
assumptions. 
There is a chain of notarization

924
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:27,800
and so long as at any stage the 
subnet hasn't been taken over by

925
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,800
faulty nodes the signature, the 
Translation signature, 

926
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,100
sufficient to show that the 
blockchain is correct in your 

927
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,000
interactions with that plot 
chatter crack. 

928
00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:41,200
So you know, of course, if the a
sufficient number of 

929
00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:45,800
participants in the blockchain 
become faulty, they could 

930
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,000
produce, they could corrupt the 
bottom, but that's true of any 

931
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,700
other Block Chain by the way. 
And if you end the same with 

932
00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:56,600
vanity, to think it's not, I 
would say, if 99% of the theory 

933
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,800
of miners would be kind of 
malicious, they could, Still not

934
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,900
trick my, full note for note 
into accepting their block 

935
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,700
element. 
So the theorem theorem is 

936
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:11,100
controlled by three parties. 
Three parties, three. 

937
00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:13,300
My, there are three mining 
pools. 

938
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:18,600
There are 330 mining pools that 
together, a few more, but no, no

939
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,300
things together. 
Have over fifty, one percent 

940
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:24,400
between them over 51% of the 
hatches, okay? 

941
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,800
And the important thing is, 
okay, they even if they could 

942
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,200
loot, they cannot. 
Well, let's just get to My 

943
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,200
footnote, you know. 
No, that's not true. 

944
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,400
I think this is one of the 
biggest myths and Longevity. 

945
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:36,400
You know, it's okay. 
You can expect Sunday. 

946
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,800
So, this is another great 
example of what happens about to

947
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:39,200
let. 
You know. 

948
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,400
Some people want to say, well, 
our networks are super 

949
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,100
decentralized. 
Look at all these nodes. 

950
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:48,900
Look, we would 1,000 Bitcoin 
nodes running on Amazon web 

951
00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:50,400
services, and inferior or 
something. 

952
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:52,500
This is not a centralization, 
okay? 

953
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,000
If you control, if you're a 
minor and you control 51% of the

954
00:52:58,008 --> 00:53:00,800
hash rate you can arbitrarily 
Thoroughly rewind. 

955
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,700
The chain and rewrite it and 
every single mode will accept 

956
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:07,200
it. 
That's that's the way it works. 

957
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,400
That's just the way proof of 
that's the way it works. 

958
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:16,600
So if you have 51%, yes, you can
to some extent rewrite history. 

959
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,100
What you cannot do and I think 
that is still a very important 

960
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:25,200
difference is even if I have now
51%, I cannot kind of introduce 

961
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:30,500
a transaction where I let's say 
spin right and then Is a big 

962
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:32,200
difference? 
Yeah, okay. 

963
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,700
So just him down sure. 
So, let's address that. 

964
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:40,800
So you are right that a 
difference here is that if if 

965
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,200
instead of just signing the 
state, everybody replace the 

966
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,000
transactions that created the 
state, while it is possible to 

967
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:53,800
double spend and arbitrarily 
recreate the state at least in 

968
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,800
this completely recreated state,
it won't be possible to for 

969
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,500
example, steal my Bitcoin. 
Or ether. 

970
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,300
That's very true. 
Now, that's true. 

971
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:04,800
We shouldn't be too pleased 
about that though. 

972
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,600
Because with something like a, 
well, computer, if the state is 

973
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,100
around, and then Rewritten, 
that's a catastrophe. 

974
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:17,200
So in the case of the internet, 
in the case, of sorry etherium, 

975
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,700
you know, if you know, we're 
each one state and then those 

976
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:25,800
three parties that control 
etherium rewound it and rewrote 

977
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:30,600
it while it's true, that You 
know, nobody could steal my 

978
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,100
ether by signing a faulty state 
in which the balance of changed 

979
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,200
and my teeth wouldn't be worth 
anything. 

980
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:42,600
Because if you can rewind and 
rewrite the blockchain, it's 

981
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,800
such a catastrophe. 
Nobody would care. 

982
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:47,600
So just to be clear about that. 
So I think that's it is true 

983
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,900
that that is a tactical 
advantage in one sense, but 

984
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:52,600
let's just let's just fall back 
to mathematics for a second 

985
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,400
because clearly, what will this?
Well, let's just stand back and 

986
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,000
see the distance mountain and 
answer the Ian are we ever going

987
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,800
to produce an infinitely? 
Scalable blockchain? 

988
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:07,500
If in order to validate it we 
have to rerun every transaction 

989
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:09,900
that ever happened. 
The answer is no, it's not 

990
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:11,500
possible. 
And therefore, we have to 

991
00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:14,700
abandon, raise it straight away 
and look for more advanced math 

992
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:16,800
solutions that solve the 
problem. 

993
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,900
I'd say two things to this. 
First of all, if I wouldn't kind

994
00:55:21,900 --> 00:55:25,100
of, if I would just run my full 
node and kind of would just well

995
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,600
verify the signatures in the way
and takes the latest State. 

996
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,200
And See what it does is provide 
work then it will actually also 

997
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,100
be much much faster than it is 
today. 

998
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:38,300
So currently really this five 
days comes from re-executing and

999
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:42,100
and you can argue whether that 
is necessary at all, you can 

1000
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:45,900
also say Well I obviously kind 
of can trust the latest state 

1001
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:48,900
that has so much proof of work 
behind it, I can just take this.

1002
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,500
That's one thing. 
And the other thing is I still 

1003
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,200
haven't ruled out the up the 
possibility to say. 

1004
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:59,500
We might have this recursive 
snarks or Or kind of those 

1005
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:04,700
correctness proofs that I still 
think that's exciting, exciting,

1006
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:10,400
a nice idea to and look for any 
kind of practical. 

1007
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,100
Well, computer to exist. 
You actually need the well 

1008
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:15,200
computer to hold the data that 
that's involved in online 

1009
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,000
services, Define science. 
So, I've got a great deal of 

1010
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,600
skepticism about the 
practicality. 

1011
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,800
I mean, they sorry they can be 
made to work, but they create a 

1012
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,800
very unusual system. 
It just it's the same thing as 

1013
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,700
with Roll-Ups and, you know, 
plasma and everything else. 

1014
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:32,500
But I just sticking on this 
question of security for a 

1015
00:56:32,508 --> 00:56:33,700
moment. 
And I'm going to ask you a 

1016
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:37,700
question. 
So, today ethereum is controlled

1017
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:40,000
by these three mining pools and 
you're quite right. 

1018
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,000
Eventually, we could, if once - 
had realized those three mining 

1019
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,400
pools had turned evil, they 
could join other mining pools, 

1020
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,400
eventually it be fixed. 
But nonetheless it would take 

1021
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,100
quite some time. 
And those three mining pools 

1022
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:53,100
control. 
Ethereum could arbitrarily 

1023
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:56,600
rewrite rewind history, and 
rewrite it now, and break 

1024
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,000
everything. 
So it is nonetheless, the Case 

1025
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,300
that you're, you know, the state
would the state would have to be

1026
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:06,700
calculated in in a legal way 
that is and they could only 

1027
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:09,300
select transactions that had 
really been submitted to the 

1028
00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:11,300
blockchain to create a new 
state. 

1029
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:13,100
But nonetheless the whole you 
know, everything could be 

1030
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:17,800
around, you could rewind by day 
and go forward in the known, no 

1031
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,300
one, no one give it is over. 
That's why we need to get rid of

1032
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:22,300
fruitive work as soon as 
possible and introduce proof of 

1033
00:57:22,308 --> 00:57:24,400
stake. 
Because then the story is 

1034
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,400
different again. 
So that's the situation today. 

1035
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,400
Anyways, regardless of what new 
systems were Was and I've got 

1036
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:30,900
some big worries about those 
two. 

1037
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:35,000
I mean, looking at the designs 
occasionally, now let's take the

1038
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,400
internet computer. 
So actually the ICP Ledger for 

1039
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:44,100
example, runs on the same subnet
as the network nervous system 

1040
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:48,000
and I believe it's got about 
thought 34, replica machines, 

1041
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:54,300
and they're all from 
independent, no providers and 

1042
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,300
you know running an independent 
data centers around the world. 

1043
00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,000
So you know, it's not perfect 
yet because the net It's only 

1044
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,000
three months old but you know, 
essentially this you've got this

1045
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,500
to centralization hierarchy of 
node provider data center 

1046
00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:07,900
geography, geography in 
jurisdiction in order for that 

1047
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:12,300
to this is a complex. 
So presenting fault tolerance is

1048
00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:16,600
basically fails. 
Once you've got a third of the 

1049
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,000
nodes being faulty the internet 
computer actually uses a multi 

1050
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,700
layered architecture. 
So the higher levels will fail 

1051
00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:27,100
before the state level fails 
without going to deal. 

1052
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:29,700
So, essentially in Access to 
state level. 

1053
00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:32,300
You mean, subnets did the blue 
chain itself is actually 

1054
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,800
multi-layered. 
So, first, you have transaction 

1055
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,200
ordering and only when The 
Ordering of transactions is 

1056
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,700
finalized at, they actually 
apply to the state by the 

1057
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:40,900
replicas and a few things like 
that. 

1058
00:58:40,900 --> 00:58:43,500
So, that's a complex topic, 
buddy. 

1059
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,200
You know, internet could be a 
block chains, have three layers,

1060
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,300
the random randomness layer, 
which is Tresor really, of 

1061
00:58:50,300 --> 00:58:53,200
course, which I started talk 
about 2015, then you have 

1062
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,000
blockchain. 
Formation, is a thing called 

1063
00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:59,200
probabilistic slot. 
Consensus, where You know, the 

1064
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,600
chain is, of course, eventually 
consistent, but it's actually 

1065
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,300
highly consistent compared to 
traditional block chains. 

1066
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,400
And then you have a finalization
there which has depends on 

1067
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:12,800
cycled - is optimistic - 
attestation anyways, ligands are

1068
00:59:12,808 --> 00:59:17,100
details in practice. 
You're looking at 2. 

1069
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:23,400
F plus 1, nodes becoming faulty 
in order for the state to be 

1070
00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:25,900
arbitrarily modified in 
practice. 

1071
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,600
And this is a complex topic 
which I won't go. 

1072
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,200
Genetics would end up in a 
rabbit hole but so let's I yeah,

1073
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,600
you know, I go back to I think, 
as I last heard, it was running 

1074
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,800
34 nodes on that subnet. 
So, yeah, you know, level, 

1075
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:48,000
you're basically going to need 
23 of those 34 to become 

1076
00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:52,300
malicious and collude in order 
to break the network nervous 

1077
00:59:52,300 --> 00:59:56,200
system and the ICP, you know, 
governance token Ledger that 

1078
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:01,000
that, that it maintains. 
So So you know, let's think 

1079
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,200
about that. 
You know, you've got these 34 

1080
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:08,300
independent nodes run by you 
know different, no providers 

1081
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:14,400
from different independent data 
centers in different geographies

1082
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,000
and different jurisdictions. 
What's more? 

1083
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,900
Likely that whatever it was 
twenty three of these. 

1084
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,500
No providers are actually going 
to turn evil and collude to 

1085
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:28,200
corrupt the state of the ICP 
Ledger. 

1086
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,700
Or that three aetherium mining 
pools. 

1087
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:36,600
Get hacked and Rewind the chain 
and do some double spins. 

1088
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:37,600
I mean, honestly. 
No. 

1089
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,800
When you really get down to it 
and, you know, these arguments 

1090
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,900
are just pretty straightforward.
I mean, look, yeah. 

1091
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,000
Okay. 
You can, we can have as many, 

1092
01:00:45,300 --> 01:00:48,900
you have 100,000 aetherium nodes
copying. 

1093
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:51,300
The Block Chain that comes out 
of the block makers. 

1094
01:00:51,300 --> 01:00:54,900
I the mining pools and it 
doesn't really change the 

1095
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,500
security of the system. 
The floor in the system is that 

1096
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,000
At just three mining pools have 
over fifty one set of the hash 

1097
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,000
rate and they can arbitrarily 
rewrite the chain and actually, 

1098
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,700
in practice, and in practice is 
much more secure doing it. 

1099
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:08,900
The way we've done it. 
In practice, once you look at 

1100
01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:13,400
the mathematics, I think no 
one's arguing for the 

1101
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:18,300
centralized mining pools but 
maybe we've gone down a rabbit 

1102
01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:21,900
hole, pretty deep. 
There's one more thing I would 

1103
01:01:21,900 --> 01:01:24,700
really like to understand about 
the internet computer and that's

1104
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:28,900
the token Amex. 
Okay so basically as you already

1105
01:01:28,900 --> 01:01:33,400
said the Entire Computer is a 
proof of stake mother and 

1106
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:38,500
there's a token associated with 
it and can you talk a little bit

1107
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:40,100
about what the token does? 
And What? 

1108
01:01:40,100 --> 01:01:44,100
I need the token for as user and
what the nodes need the token 

1109
01:01:44,100 --> 01:01:48,200
for and so on, we are just just 
just to make a quick correction,

1110
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,800
it's the internet and it is not 
a proof of stake system. 

1111
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:55,600
So what how how validators are 
nodes, penalized, if they 

1112
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,100
misbehave? 
Well, let me just rewind to that

1113
01:01:59,100 --> 01:02:02,300
that that occurs there is 
slashing, but it's not proof 

1114
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:04,000
Stakes. 
This to me, you basically, it's 

1115
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,900
a sort of a sort of hybrid 
between proof of work and proof 

1116
01:02:06,900 --> 01:02:09,300
of stake. 
I'll come back to that, but just

1117
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:11,700
to be clear, you know, I'm not a
supporter of proof of stake 

1118
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:17,200
systems as they exist today, and
they always reduce tool are two 

1119
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,900
applications of big Tech cloud 
services. 

1120
01:02:20,300 --> 01:02:23,600
So if people are upset about, 
you know, 75 percent plus of 

1121
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,500
ethereum nodes running on Amazon
web services today, you know 

1122
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:28,000
what? 
Thing that we should. 

1123
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,700
All be very concerned about 
because I'm a big supporter of 

1124
01:02:29,707 --> 01:02:33,700
ethereum is that when we move to
theorem 2.0, we actually end up 

1125
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:38,100
with, you know, 95% plus of the 
validation nodes running on 

1126
01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:41,100
Amazon and which is obviously a 
single point of failure. 

1127
01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:43,500
It's much worse than the mining 
pools were today. 

1128
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:46,100
We've got three mining pools 
that conclude to control the 

1129
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,400
theorem chain and tomorrow it 
could be Jeff Bezos. 

1130
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:54,100
So and that's actually the case 
today if you look at, you know 

1131
01:02:54,400 --> 01:03:00,300
how things like polka dot and 
Cordon And I have a lunch hosted

1132
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:02,600
and in practice. 
All the nodes are on cloud. 

1133
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,100
Running off cloud services, like
digital ocean, and Amazon, and, 

1134
01:03:05,100 --> 01:03:08,100
you know, the rest of it. 
So I don't like that. 

1135
01:03:08,100 --> 01:03:13,000
And there are also major issues 
with prove a state, with respect

1136
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,700
to scaling blockchain. 
So this is fairly easy to 

1137
01:03:16,700 --> 01:03:21,600
understand if if you want a 
protocol and remember a protocol

1138
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,400
is a set of instructions that 
are run autonomously if you want

1139
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,700
to. 
Protocol to find a way of 

1140
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:32,300
Distributing computational, work
across a network. 

1141
01:03:32,700 --> 01:03:37,300
Well you better be sure that 
you've got some sense of the 

1142
01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:42,200
computational capacity of the 
nodes that are hosting your 

1143
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,600
network. 
It's fairly trivial to see that.

1144
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,300
If you don't understand if you 
don't know what the 

1145
01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:48,900
computational capacity of nodes 
is or you can't rely on, it's 

1146
01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:51,100
very difficult to distribute 
computational work. 

1147
01:03:51,100 --> 01:03:54,500
So, you know, one of the 
problems with you, no proof 

1148
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:58,400
State networks, as articulated 
as designed Is that they're all 

1149
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,900
running on this, you know, 
oftentimes virtual instances 

1150
01:04:01,900 --> 01:04:06,200
shared on these you know on 
shared computers in Amazon web 

1151
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,400
services, data centers. 
You never really know what their

1152
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,100
capacity is. 
So the internet computer, 

1153
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,700
obviously a shoes, the cloud, we
want nothing to do with it. 

1154
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,100
We think of sovereign blockchain
should run and its own Hardware,

1155
01:04:20,100 --> 01:04:22,000
independent data centers, and 
that's indeed how the internet 

1156
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,800
computer works. 
But the node machines themselves

1157
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,900
are built It to standard 
specifications, and this is 

1158
01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:32,100
nothing proprietary. 
I've heard, you know, people, so

1159
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:33,700
unless it's some kind of were 
selling the nodes. 

1160
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:35,100
No, not that's not the case at 
all. 

1161
01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:38,400
Of course not, you know, there's
there's been a generation one 

1162
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,700
knows, Perkins generation to 
know to back in the be lots of 

1163
01:04:40,700 --> 01:04:44,100
others. 
It the purpose is that people 

1164
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,200
create node machines that are 
compatible with each other. 

1165
01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:51,800
So that when you create a subnet
blockchain and that subnet 

1166
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:57,700
blockchain is under load some 
node machines don't Behind 

1167
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,500
because the internet computer 
relies on something called 

1168
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:05,600
statistical deviance to detect 
faulty behavior. 

1169
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,500
And of course, you know, the 
protocol doesn't care why your 

1170
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:11,500
node is. 
Deviating, it just knows that 

1171
01:05:11,500 --> 01:05:14,600
it's producing less blocks and 
the other node, for example and 

1172
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,400
this this can result in it being
slashed. 

1173
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:20,000
So it's very important that, you
know, all these nodes are 

1174
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:25,300
running on very similar Hardware
so that you don't fall behind. 

1175
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:31,200
If when the Networks under load.
And you know, this is another 

1176
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:35,000
aspect that, you know, the fact 
that there's no machines use 

1177
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,800
standard specifications and 
Hardware configurations, 

1178
01:05:38,700 --> 01:05:42,500
specifically optimized, for the 
task of Hope hosting a high 

1179
01:05:42,500 --> 01:05:47,200
force blockchain allows us to 
drive, you know, much to high 

1180
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,100
levels of efficiency and and and
and performance. 

1181
01:05:50,100 --> 01:05:52,500
But going back to the original 
question now, what is the model 

1182
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:55,400
you can? 
Look at it a bit like this each 

1183
01:05:55,400 --> 01:06:00,500
one of those node machines. 
Is treated like an equal unit of

1184
01:06:00,500 --> 01:06:02,400
steak. 
Okay? 

1185
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:07,200
So in a theorem 2.0, a unit of 
steak will be an ether fright, 

1186
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,200
for example, right? 
And if you stake one ether, you 

1187
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:13,800
get some fixed return in the 
internet computer network. 

1188
01:06:15,100 --> 01:06:18,400
If you like the state and 
currency is the actual Hardware 

1189
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:23,300
device, the node, the node 
machine and that no machine, 

1190
01:06:23,300 --> 01:06:26,300
every node machine that receives
equal rewards. 

1191
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:29,500
There's No fashion competition, 
you know, electricity burning 

1192
01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:31,900
competition to see. 
If you the more hashing you do, 

1193
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:36,200
the more block roads, you get 
nothing like that, the reward 

1194
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:40,200
provided to each node machine is
the same. 

1195
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:42,500
And the cat will I go into some 
details. 

1196
01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:44,400
The can be some variations based
on geography and things like 

1197
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,700
that, but but essentially it's 
the same and you receive the 

1198
01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:52,700
Rewards or your the node machine
sees the rewards if it does not 

1199
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:56,500
statistically deviate. 
So that that is it you know, a 

1200
01:06:56,700 --> 01:07:01,200
Going to the way that 
statistical deviation is 

1201
01:07:01,700 --> 01:07:06,300
detected, I know and analyze, 
you know, a no machine gets paid

1202
01:07:06,300 --> 01:07:09,400
a fixed monthly rewarded. 
Real terms for correct 

1203
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,400
functioning and if you want to 
increase your revenues, then you

1204
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,700
need to create an ad, add more 
node machines to the network. 

1205
01:07:17,100 --> 01:07:20,400
So, yeah, in that sense, you 
know, it's a kind of funny 

1206
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,100
thing. 
It's like, it's a bit like proof

1207
01:07:22,100 --> 01:07:26,500
of stake where the unit of steak
is known me. 

1208
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,600
Machine. 
And just in the same way, one 

1209
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,600
ether State, Donny theorem 2.0, 
gets a fixed steak and reward on

1210
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,400
the internet computer network. 
One node machine gets a fixed 

1211
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:40,700
reward and on the other hand, 
you know, this thing where the 

1212
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:43,000
nodes are required, not to 
statistically deviate, or they 

1213
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,100
can get slashed. 
Well, you could, you could argue

1214
01:07:46,100 --> 01:07:48,400
that some kind of proof of 
correct processing. 

1215
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,300
It's a kind of, it's something 
weird hybrid between proofs, 

1216
01:07:51,300 --> 01:07:54,500
take a vote, and then the 
network nervous system, of 

1217
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:57,800
course, is more akin to proof. 
But it doesn't add anything to a

1218
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,600
consensus that that's the 
governance system that's built 

1219
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,500
into the protocol and you 
participate in that by getting 

1220
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:07,900
ICP and staking them within the 
network nervous system to create

1221
01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:10,400
voting neurons and then you 
know, you're on your own gets 

1222
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,200
rewarded when it votes and you 
know, as probably know it's a 

1223
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,000
form of liquid democracy and 
neurons can be configured to 

1224
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,800
vote automatically by following 
other neurons on different 

1225
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,399
topics and things like that. 
The magic of the system though 

1226
01:08:20,700 --> 01:08:23,800
is that the protocol 
sophisticated enough that it can

1227
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,500
upgrade the blockchain and the 
nodes without interrupting. 

1228
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:30,000
It and this is actually 
extraordinarily complex because 

1229
01:08:30,899 --> 01:08:34,600
you know, I mentioned how the 
subnets all run a variety of 

1230
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,100
threshold cryptography schemes 
to ride from BLS. 

1231
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,300
And I also mentioned that you 
know things like you know 

1232
01:08:41,300 --> 01:08:45,300
blockchain block chains are have
Dynamic membership like nodes 

1233
01:08:45,300 --> 01:08:48,100
come and go, you know, nodes 
fail and you know, Dad it. 

1234
01:08:48,300 --> 01:08:49,600
So there's all these things, it 
does. 

1235
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,500
Like he has a non-interactive d 
kg, which is a huge achievement.

1236
01:08:52,899 --> 01:08:56,500
It does kiwi sharing and all of 
this stuff. 

1237
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,700
Is Works in synchrony with 
things called catch up packages 

1238
01:08:59,700 --> 01:09:03,600
within the protocol that allows 
nodes to join and leave. 

1239
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,100
And through that system, it's 
also actually able to upgrade 

1240
01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:09,899
the nodes within the protocol 
without interrupting anything. 

1241
01:09:09,899 --> 01:09:12,100
So there's no need for a hard 
fork or anything like that. 

1242
01:09:12,300 --> 01:09:16,000
That's only like a sort of 
emergency fallback mechanism 

1243
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,399
that you'd actually do may know 
the mutt that the no providers 

1244
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:21,700
would have to manually. 
Stick USB memory sticks into the

1245
01:09:21,707 --> 01:09:24,500
back of the no machines. 
But that's not you know that the

1246
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:26,500
network runs under the control 
of the network. 

1247
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,100
Nervous system that also grades 
and that's why it's able to 

1248
01:09:29,100 --> 01:09:32,300
evolve so quickly. 
I mean, and also why, you know 

1249
01:09:32,300 --> 01:09:35,100
the Network's even though it's I
mean that it's more than 100 

1250
01:09:35,100 --> 01:09:36,800
times more complex and aetherium
probably. 

1251
01:09:37,300 --> 01:09:40,300
And, but yet, you know, the 
downtime hasn't really been any 

1252
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:44,899
down time since its, you know, 
it first went through Genesis 

1253
01:09:44,899 --> 01:09:46,899
launch 10th of May. 
And part of the reason for that 

1254
01:09:46,899 --> 01:09:49,700
is that, you know, no nervous 
systems be able to push out 

1255
01:09:49,700 --> 01:09:51,600
security fixes and other kinds 
of bug fixes. 

1256
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,700
And in real time, I mean, I 
think it's, I mean, it's already

1257
01:09:55,700 --> 01:09:58,100
processed hundreds, Proposals 
that, you know, do things like 

1258
01:09:58,100 --> 01:10:00,900
create new subnet to upgrade, 
push upgrades that kind of 

1259
01:10:00,907 --> 01:10:02,200
thing. 
Tweak, you know, like parameters

1260
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,200
and if you if you include 
economic information coming in 

1261
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,000
at the number, it's process, 
tens of thousands of proposals 

1262
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:09,800
already. 
So anyway, the no nervous 

1263
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:11,700
system, the brain of the 
network. 

1264
01:10:11,700 --> 01:10:14,500
If you like that's more akin to 
proof of stake where you can 

1265
01:10:14,500 --> 01:10:16,700
just take, I see peace, take 
them aside to note, nervous 

1266
01:10:16,700 --> 01:10:17,700
systems, create a version, your 
own. 

1267
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,200
And if you don't want to be 
actively involved in governance 

1268
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:23,900
yourself, you just configure 
your neurons to follow other 

1269
01:10:23,900 --> 01:10:27,900
neurons effectively and voter. 
According to the The activity of

1270
01:10:28,300 --> 01:10:31,300
other night neurons and it's 
instead of form of liquid 

1271
01:10:31,300 --> 01:10:35,100
democracy. 
Maybe one more question to the 

1272
01:10:35,100 --> 01:10:40,700
two to note operators currently 
if I check the website and kind 

1273
01:10:40,700 --> 01:10:44,500
of there's a link run a node and
then redirect me to a type form 

1274
01:10:44,500 --> 01:10:47,600
kind of to kind of basically 
introduce myself and Away. 

1275
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:49,500
Ask for permission to run a 
note. 

1276
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:51,700
What's what's the vision on 
that? 

1277
01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:54,400
We should everyone be or it 
should become permissionless to 

1278
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,600
join the network as a note, or 
will that be part of the 

1279
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,800
governance or not? 
Is it is permission is now it's 

1280
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,100
I mean it is permission is now, 
I mean all is happening. 

1281
01:11:02,300 --> 01:11:04,700
Is the, I mean, because all of 
these things are completely and 

1282
01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:07,100
then the internet computer is a 
completely new, kind of 

1283
01:11:07,108 --> 01:11:10,500
blockchain and it introduces a 
lot of new Concepts and it's 

1284
01:11:11,100 --> 01:11:12,300
substantially more 
sophisticated. 

1285
01:11:12,300 --> 01:11:13,400
It is also a lot more to learn 
about. 

1286
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:18,400
So you know, in order to add 
nodes to the internet computer, 

1287
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,000
you first need to get a note 
provider id, and that you do 

1288
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,200
that by submitting a proposal, 
it's Commissioners, anyone can 

1289
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,300
add the proposal and then you 
need you but it needs to be 

1290
01:11:26,300 --> 01:11:28,100
approved by governance or both 
eyes. 

1291
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:32,600
But if you can end up with a 
command line, Working with a 

1292
01:11:32,608 --> 01:11:35,600
command line. 
And and so the the interlocutor 

1293
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,400
associations doing is collecting
people's information and 

1294
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:40,700
creating those proposals for 
them. 

1295
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,100
Now, in the end down, that'll 
be, I'm sure people will just go

1296
01:11:45,100 --> 01:11:46,500
directly in the same way by the 
way. 

1297
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:50,400
I haven't even seen it yet but 
we created internally this 

1298
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,400
front-end app that lets you 
interact for no nervous system. 

1299
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:59,700
It's like if it was interested 
in to NN s dot, I see 0 dot app 

1300
01:11:59,900 --> 01:12:01,600
and that's actually being served
straight off, internet can be a 

1301
01:12:01,608 --> 01:12:03,400
blockchain. 
And you can it allows you to 

1302
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,700
interact the nervous system and 
your ICP Legend stuff. 

1303
01:12:06,300 --> 01:12:08,000
But the stomach there's a, 
there's a, there's a group 

1304
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,200
called tonic labs and in Sydney,
at a Premiere at hearing, 

1305
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:12,500
amazing things about it, and 
they've created even better 

1306
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,000
front-end app that lets you 
interact with a nervous system. 

1307
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,500
So in the same way, you know, 
the internet computer 

1308
01:12:17,500 --> 01:12:22,000
associations, helping people, no
providers, get involved as a 

1309
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,000
free service, but in the end, 
I'm sure they'll be lots of 

1310
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,800
other ways I'm getting involved.
Just to say on that front. 

1311
01:12:28,300 --> 01:12:30,400
It is a very complex piece, 
internet computer. 

1312
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:34,200
So it's been added New subnets, 
quite slowly. 

1313
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,100
And it's already, I mean, it's 
already processing 20 blocks a 

1314
01:12:37,100 --> 01:12:39,900
second and it's like, I don't 
want it is now 130 140 million 

1315
01:12:39,900 --> 01:12:43,800
blocks, but, you know, we plan 
on and hope to see that, you 

1316
01:12:43,808 --> 01:12:46,500
know, scaling out to thousands 
of blocks a second. 

1317
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:50,500
But, you know, I think the 
people involved in pushing these

1318
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:53,600
proposals and getting it up, 
I've graded an updated it going 

1319
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:55,300
carefully, because, of course, 
they don't want to. 

1320
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,400
This is, this is anyone running 
for three months. 

1321
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,900
And so, the moment there's a 
there are that many nodes was 

1322
01:13:00,900 --> 01:13:02,900
hundreds of nodes. 
Actually are D and data centers,

1323
01:13:02,900 --> 01:13:04,700
configured ready to be added to 
subnets. 

1324
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,800
And I think, I mean, I could 
have got this wrong with last 

1325
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,200
time, I heard the number a few 
weeks ago, like 4,000, no, 

1326
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:16,300
providers 4,000 override is 
waiting to install notes and 

1327
01:13:16,300 --> 01:13:19,000
things like that. 
So it's, you know stuff because 

1328
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:22,000
I mean, you know, the internet 
computer Association and the 

1329
01:13:22,008 --> 01:13:24,800
people you know, working under 
its auspices that, you know, 

1330
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,500
trying to help people get 
involved as far as they can. 

1331
01:13:28,500 --> 01:13:32,100
But this is a very, very complex
blockchain system and its own 

1332
01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:36,400
Running for three months and you
know if something I mean we did 

1333
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:41,900
have one thing go wrong like two
weeks or no a week off to launch

1334
01:13:42,300 --> 01:13:45,400
where the network nervous system
panicked. 

1335
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,800
Right? 
Because, you know, I know it's 

1336
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,900
like they just saw some what it 
saw something that he thought 

1337
01:13:50,900 --> 01:13:53,900
was a data inconsistency. 
It wasn't and then just panicked

1338
01:13:53,900 --> 01:13:56,300
and refuse to do anything. 
And of course, the problem is, 

1339
01:13:56,300 --> 01:14:00,000
if the network nervous system 
stops working and Patricks, then

1340
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,000
you can't use the network 
nervous that you can't submit. 

1341
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:07,100
Proposals to the nervous system 
to push out fix it is to the 

1342
01:14:07,100 --> 01:14:09,800
blockchain. 
So you actually have to revert 

1343
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,400
to what everybody else does hot 
a bloody hard Fork? 

1344
01:14:12,700 --> 01:14:17,100
So we're in the situation like a
weekend you know, from launch 

1345
01:14:17,500 --> 01:14:21,400
and you know, the damn net or 
nervous system is not working 

1346
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:26,200
and you know, it was panicking. 
And so obviously this I think 

1347
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,300
there's been an update push so 
that in the future it will stop 

1348
01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:32,100
doing everything except 
accepting upgrades. 

1349
01:14:32,300 --> 01:14:35,700
Itself. 
It's time to prevent this 

1350
01:14:35,700 --> 01:14:37,200
happening here. 
But anyway, so then we had to 

1351
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,300
get all the no providers to 
basically, coordinate data 

1352
01:14:40,300 --> 01:14:43,300
centers and, you know, putting 
USB sticks into the back and 

1353
01:14:43,300 --> 01:14:47,000
like the British it, a nightmare
nightmare is any actually when 

1354
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:50,400
you have to do these kind of 
hard Forks, that you realize, 

1355
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,900
how good the network nervous 
system is I nobody ever wants to

1356
01:14:53,900 --> 01:14:58,000
be in the position of hard hard 
forking the the internet 

1357
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:00,900
computer again by actually sort 
of like you know, actually 

1358
01:15:00,900 --> 01:15:05,600
manually overriding the software
night, absolute absolute 

1359
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,600
Nightmare and we found things 
like, you know, some of the no 

1360
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,400
machines has slightly different 
specs and then want to boot up 

1361
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,500
from the USB sticks and all that
kind of stuff. 

1362
01:15:13,500 --> 01:15:15,900
It was a nightmare. 
So the nervous systems are 

1363
01:15:15,907 --> 01:15:19,900
absolutely brilliant thing 
because, you know, it allows you

1364
01:15:19,900 --> 01:15:22,500
to evolve the network structure 
and real-time, you know, 

1365
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:24,700
creating new subnets and things 
like that and ducting you nodes,

1366
01:15:24,700 --> 01:15:28,700
and no providers. 
And it allows you to, you know, 

1367
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,100
push out updates to nodes and 
thing. 

1368
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,500
But I'm not of course, you know,
for the community to exert its 

1369
01:15:35,500 --> 01:15:38,600
will and in one of the things 
that would goes back to the 2017

1370
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:41,700
2016, 2017, proposal the new 
ways to cut the body nervous 

1371
01:15:41,700 --> 01:15:44,100
system that you know, what do 
you do when you've got bad 

1372
01:15:44,100 --> 01:15:47,400
things like child porn and human
trafficking and terrorism. 

1373
01:15:47,700 --> 01:15:50,400
You know, the community the 
internet computer Community can 

1374
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:54,000
exert as well and and 
potentially shut down those kind

1375
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:55,500
of systems through the novel 
nervous systems. 

1376
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,700
Let me make one more comment on 
the, on the question, whether 

1377
01:16:00,700 --> 01:16:04,900
it's permission list or not. 
I would say I'm well, I'm 

1378
01:16:04,900 --> 01:16:06,800
obviously going to be in the 
theorem camp and that proof of 

1379
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,700
stake fan. 
But I would say that is one of 

1380
01:16:10,700 --> 01:16:16,600
the arguments in a way for proof
of work in my view because that 

1381
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,400
in my view is truly 
permissionless. 

1382
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,200
So kind of well, you really 
need. 

1383
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:22,900
You don't, I mean, you just need
to Hardware. 

1384
01:16:22,900 --> 01:16:26,100
You need to deliver the work and
that's all you need to do while 

1385
01:16:26,100 --> 01:16:32,600
with Like proof of steak, you 
need basically to some extent 

1386
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,400
agreement from the existing 
Community or like put in 

1387
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:37,400
extreme. 
So if the token distribution 

1388
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,800
would be like just between three
guys, well, you would need steak

1389
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,300
from those three guys and and I 
see it. 

1390
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,700
And while this was the theory, 
mm, I think it was a good thing 

1391
01:16:47,700 --> 01:16:49,800
that there was. 
Well, there was a pre-sale and 

1392
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:54,100
then there was over a few year 
years of proof of work which 

1393
01:16:54,100 --> 01:16:57,200
actually led to a white doctor. 
Distribution. 

1394
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:01,300
So now I think it's kind of fair
to say theorem is now a 

1395
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,600
permission to system because 
somehow the Aether is so 

1396
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:12,600
distributed that anyone can get 
32, 32 ether, but but like in 

1397
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:14,900
your system you still kind of 
need the permission of the 

1398
01:17:14,900 --> 01:17:20,700
existing stakeholders to become 
a node or of the existing token 

1399
01:17:20,700 --> 01:17:22,700
holders are quite there. 
No, no, quite no, no. 

1400
01:17:22,700 --> 01:17:24,100
Quite I mean if there's a 
separation. 

1401
01:17:24,100 --> 01:17:27,800
So I mean you know that's why 
the Network nervous system. 

1402
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,000
The controller is separated from
the physical there. 

1403
01:17:31,300 --> 01:17:36,400
So, you know, if you're a to 
borrow the term minor, it's 

1404
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:39,000
pretty straightforward, you 
know, you get these, you know, 

1405
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,700
obviously, have to buy the no 
machines to the required spec 

1406
01:17:42,700 --> 01:17:46,400
from somewhere, but then you, 
you know, install them in a 

1407
01:17:46,407 --> 01:17:50,400
Datacenter, plug them in to the 
internet and off you go. 

1408
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,800
And obviously, if you're no 
machines, are defective in some 

1409
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,400
way if you know bandwidth isn't 
good enough. 

1410
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,200
His rights back, and you can get
slashed, that's obviously very 

1411
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:00,900
easy to avoid. 
Just make sure they have got 

1412
01:18:00,900 --> 01:18:02,900
enough bandwidth and then they 
make the spec. 

1413
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,500
So that's, you know, there's a 
deliberate separation there. 

1414
01:18:05,500 --> 01:18:08,900
So, you know, the people 
participating in it was nervous 

1415
01:18:08,900 --> 01:18:10,900
system. 
Obviously, wanted to be, you 

1416
01:18:10,900 --> 01:18:15,200
know, if you like Commissioners 
because the security of the 

1417
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,600
network, the greater the variety
of no providers, the greater the

1418
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:23,300
security in the end. 
So there's no reason why anybody

1419
01:18:23,300 --> 01:18:26,500
would want to stop a node node 
provider getting involved, 

1420
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:29,400
Unless they are obviously 
malicious a known to be 

1421
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:33,100
malicious party. 
You know the protocol if you 

1422
01:18:33,100 --> 01:18:36,500
like takes care of that if 
somebody is running faulty nodes

1423
01:18:36,500 --> 01:18:39,000
and that they can get slashed 
and that's their fault. 

1424
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:43,000
So it's not the that's not 
something that, you know, the 

1425
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,800
people stating in the network 
nervous system and controlling 

1426
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,900
these voting neurons, have to 
worry about their objective. 

1427
01:18:49,900 --> 01:18:51,900
I mean, look the no nervous 
systems design. 

1428
01:18:51,900 --> 01:18:58,300
Using economics and Game Theory 
is such that new Own holders 

1429
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:02,200
will either Vote or configure 
then you're on to follow other 

1430
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:05,200
neurons. 
So it votes in a way that is 

1431
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:08,400
likely to maximize the value of 
the ICP locked in. 

1432
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:12,000
Then your own at the earliest 
point in the future, that it can

1433
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:14,700
be unlocked least if they're 
little bit sociopathic. 

1434
01:19:14,700 --> 01:19:18,000
So that's why if you lock up 
your if you create an Iran with 

1435
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,900
an eight-year lockup you know 
you get I don't know what it is.

1436
01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:24,600
It several times I think greater
voting power and rewards then if

1437
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,300
you just lock it up for for a 
year, But because, of course, 

1438
01:19:28,300 --> 01:19:30,200
you're voting with a long-term 
perspective that you're 

1439
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,100
thinking. 
Well, how do I maximize the 

1440
01:19:32,108 --> 01:19:36,500
value of the ICP locked inside 
this neuron over over it, over 

1441
01:19:36,500 --> 01:19:38,600
it yet. 
And certainly broad 

1442
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,400
participation is something, 
you're going to be seeking 

1443
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:45,300
because the greater the number 
of no providers, the harder it 

1444
01:19:45,300 --> 01:19:49,000
will be to attack the network 
for example, by launching a 

1445
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:51,300
legal action or through a no 
provider going bankrupt. 

1446
01:19:51,300 --> 01:19:54,400
So these interests are aligned 
that Network nervous. 

1447
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:56,200
System is an open question at 
permission to system. 

1448
01:19:56,200 --> 01:20:00,000
And certainly You know, if 
you're a long-term ICP holder 

1449
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,000
and you want the network to 
succeed, and you also want as 

1450
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:08,500
many, many no providers involved
and has met an overtime as 

1451
01:20:08,500 --> 01:20:10,200
demand. 
You know, for competition grows 

1452
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,200
as many nodes as possible. 
Something by the way it's just 

1453
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,200
mentioned with respect to proof 
of stake and this is an 

1454
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,100
important observation. 
There are some security 

1455
01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:21,300
advantages of proof steak and 
one of the challenges with proof

1456
01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:26,000
of work is you cannot / people. 
So civil resistance is the 

1457
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,600
mechanism through. 
Ooh, which you make it difficult

1458
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,500
to participate in a network and 
it stops an attacker just 

1459
01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:33,500
creating for example, zillions 
of nodes and taking it over, 

1460
01:20:33,500 --> 01:20:36,800
right? 
So there are three ease of civil

1461
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:41,600
resistance, right? 
There's entry cost, existence 

1462
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:46,500
cost and exit penalty. 
So in the case of Bitcoin, the 

1463
01:20:46,500 --> 01:20:51,200
entry cost is buying your a six 
and configuring them in some 

1464
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:53,600
suitable environment. 
That's your entry cost. 

1465
01:20:53,700 --> 01:20:55,900
Your Existence cost is obviously
managing the machines but 

1466
01:20:55,900 --> 01:20:59,100
primarily the This cost is 
electricity, and proof of work 

1467
01:20:59,100 --> 01:21:01,600
is really an electricity burning
competition, which is why it's 

1468
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:04,700
so environmentally unfriendly, 
but the third one is exit 

1469
01:21:04,700 --> 01:21:06,300
penalty, there isn't really an 
exit penalty. 

1470
01:21:06,300 --> 01:21:10,700
If, you know, the Chinese 
government took over, you know, 

1471
01:21:10,700 --> 01:21:15,100
a vast swathe of Bitcoin or 
theorem mining machines and took

1472
01:21:15,100 --> 01:21:17,500
control of the network, would be
no way of slashing them. 

1473
01:21:17,500 --> 01:21:21,000
There'd be no way of for the 
good miners to band together. 

1474
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:24,200
You know, the correct - to band 
together and other than changing

1475
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:28,700
the, the Obelisk which would 
Less everyone, it was and it was

1476
01:21:28,700 --> 01:21:32,400
with proof of stake. 
You know, obviously entry cost 

1477
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:36,100
is actually obtaining the 
cryptocurrency necessary to 

1478
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,300
stake. 
Existence cost is really the 

1479
01:21:38,300 --> 01:21:41,400
cost of capital and depends if 
you've got delegated staking 

1480
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:42,900
things like that. 
But you know perhaps it's also 

1481
01:21:42,900 --> 01:21:46,800
running the the some kind of 
Amazon web services, instance, 

1482
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:50,800
coff coff and but thirdly, you 
have got x a penalty in the set.

1483
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:55,000
So if you know, a sufficient 
number of steak has participants

1484
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:58,000
in the network became beloved, 
let you know, Faulty included 

1485
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,500
and malicious whatever and the 
correct miners could band 

1486
01:22:01,500 --> 01:22:06,200
together and Fork the chain and 
you know, delete the stake of 

1487
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,600
the bad guys. 
Now be very disruptive, of 

1488
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,100
course, however but to read the 
bad guys, it's like unbounded 

1489
01:22:12,100 --> 01:22:17,100
cost now, it's unbounded cost to
just wanted to come back, maybe 

1490
01:22:17,100 --> 01:22:20,000
to part of the discussion. 
Earlier, at least, that's my 

1491
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:25,300
view of it that even like 5% or 
whatever is small percentage of 

1492
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,000
honest. 
So even if Just 5% would be 

1493
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:32,200
honest, they could simply / the 
95% way so it's not enough to 

1494
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:37,000
have 50% of the steak to kind of
create your own history. 

1495
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,200
As long as you have people 
running full nodes, they will 

1496
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:43,100
reject this strong history and 
just / you out what caused this 

1497
01:22:43,100 --> 01:22:46,200
is proof stakes and this is one 
of the reasons proofs takes that

1498
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,700
in my view potentially Superior 
in many respects to 

1499
01:22:49,700 --> 01:22:53,000
proof-of-work. 
I guess that was what it took to

1500
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:57,100
some extent. 
Also, again, weld some Even to 

1501
01:22:57,100 --> 01:22:59,900
have actually full nodes and 
people that are don't even 

1502
01:22:59,900 --> 01:23:04,200
participating in the as 
validated or courses block 

1503
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:06,800
producers. 
But simply as as someone who 

1504
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:10,300
validates the transactions 
because that means, even if more

1505
01:23:10,300 --> 01:23:14,300
than 50% of the proof of stake, 
participants would kind of try 

1506
01:23:14,300 --> 01:23:17,200
to create an invalid block. 
They would slip Simply Be 

1507
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:18,900
slashed out. 
Of course it would be disruptive

1508
01:23:18,900 --> 01:23:21,800
but it would go on and they 
would lose their state. 

1509
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:23,800
You'd have an incorrect Network 
and a correct Network. 

1510
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:26,200
And essentially, the incorrect 
Network would have some breaking

1511
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,200
its And chain of history and 
yeah. 

1512
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,500
But you know, the reason that's 
possible of course is because, 

1513
01:23:30,500 --> 01:23:32,000
you know, you have validated 
sets and they're adding 

1514
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,600
signatures and you can compare 
valid data sets and detectors 

1515
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:36,800
double signed and things like 
that. 

1516
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,200
So that's that's that's an 
advantage you get and you know, 

1517
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:42,900
proof-of-work has other, you 
know, disadvantages to, you 

1518
01:23:42,900 --> 01:23:45,700
know, you get essential but 
maybe you mentioned those three 

1519
01:23:45,700 --> 01:23:48,300
things and maybe let's do just 
to round it up to could now 

1520
01:23:48,300 --> 01:23:50,800
notice. 
Now how is it for internal 

1521
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:53,800
computer going to entry entry 
running an exit cost? 

1522
01:23:54,600 --> 01:23:57,700
Ah welcome so the fries Civil 
resistance the internet 

1523
01:23:57,700 --> 01:23:59,000
computer. 
Well, first of all, of course 

1524
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:00,900
you need to acquire the node 
machine. 

1525
01:24:00,900 --> 01:24:05,200
That's your unit of steak and 
remember each recall that each 

1526
01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:09,900
node machine receives an equal 
reward for correct operation. 

1527
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:13,500
So that's your entry cost. 
Your Existence cost, of course, 

1528
01:24:13,500 --> 01:24:16,400
is managing that mowing machine 
and making sure that it 

1529
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:19,400
continues to perform correctly, 
because it doesn't get slashed, 

1530
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:22,400
you know, that's going to 
involve things like, you know, 

1531
01:24:22,700 --> 01:24:27,200
paying for hosting an internet 
bandwidth and Addressing any 

1532
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,800
harder, I Fall to rise. 
And so on and exit penalty is 

1533
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:34,700
same thing. 
You know, your node has been 

1534
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,500
statistically deviating and it 
doesn't just have to be 

1535
01:24:37,500 --> 01:24:39,500
dishonest Behavior. 
It could just be that, you know,

1536
01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:43,200
you've this node is installed in
a cage a crappy Datacenter or 

1537
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:45,800
it's not the right Hardware 
spec, so it keeps falling behind

1538
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:48,300
when the Network's under load 
and not producing enough blocks 

1539
01:24:48,300 --> 01:24:49,400
and so it's going to get 
slashed. 

1540
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:53,600
Same thing is they're slashing 
because I mean, do I need to 

1541
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:56,300
stake doing? 
Didn't do you need to stay kind 

1542
01:24:56,300 --> 01:24:58,000
of You can still. 
So what you're saying is, you 

1543
01:24:58,008 --> 01:25:00,500
know, couldn't somebody take 
this node and then re-enter the 

1544
01:25:00,500 --> 01:25:02,100
network under another identity, 
right? 

1545
01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:04,800
So, yeah, you know, how big is 
the excuse? 

1546
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,300
Well, look, I mean, first of 
all, slashing can include things

1547
01:25:08,300 --> 01:25:12,500
like a crude earnings that are 
paid in arrears. 

1548
01:25:12,500 --> 01:25:15,700
So you can actually you couldn't
very well create because out 

1549
01:25:15,700 --> 01:25:16,000
there. 
Yeah. 

1550
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:18,200
Very exactly. 
Very, very, very easily include 

1551
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:20,800
of, sort of just a traditional 
proof of stake, ask financial 

1552
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,400
penalty, but you know, in 
practice, you know, when you're,

1553
01:25:24,700 --> 01:25:27,800
you know, you would have to, you
have to What a new node provider

1554
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,100
id. 
Unless you just sold the node to

1555
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,200
another node provider which is 
probably not what you want to 

1556
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:36,400
do. 
There's a whole process you're 

1557
01:25:36,407 --> 01:25:38,900
going to you know get that 
proposal and to know nervous 

1558
01:25:38,900 --> 01:25:42,800
system get it adopted the sum 
identity aspect of that because 

1559
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:44,600
you know it's deterministic 
centralization. 

1560
01:25:44,900 --> 01:25:46,300
That's how we get the 
replication down. 

1561
01:25:46,700 --> 01:25:48,700
So yeah, there's a lot of 
overhead. 

1562
01:25:48,700 --> 01:25:50,900
You know, you don't want to 
invest, you don't want to invest

1563
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:52,700
a lot of time. 
Okay, okay, crimes, the, she's 

1564
01:25:52,700 --> 01:25:55,600
like they make the main cost is 
the main cost is the entry is 

1565
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,900
the entry cost. 
Well, I mean don't forget is 

1566
01:25:57,900 --> 01:26:00,400
expanding the these these nodes 
can see a lot of bandwidth and 

1567
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,300
power and so on and I'm gonna 
nothing like a quarter for state

1568
01:26:03,300 --> 01:26:06,800
now, also proof of work. 
Now of course, but yeah. 

1569
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:08,700
Yeah, I didn't know you've got 
all three days. 

1570
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,300
Yeah. 
Dominic, I had to hope to 

1571
01:26:11,308 --> 01:26:14,100
understand definitely in the 
internet computer, a lot better 

1572
01:26:14,100 --> 01:26:17,200
than I currently do, and I'm not
quite there. 

1573
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:21,000
So I think this, we will 
probably have to catch up sooner

1574
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:23,500
than in five years. 
I think I learned a lot. 

1575
01:26:24,300 --> 01:26:27,200
I'm still very much not at that 
level that I wanted to be after 

1576
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:30,400
this episode. 
Anyways, let me ask you one, 

1577
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,500
final question. 
I mean, so, basically the Entire

1578
01:26:32,500 --> 01:26:36,200
Computer, it's this new thing. 
It's kind of currently it's not 

1579
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:39,800
running under load, it doesn't 
have a ton of applications 

1580
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:40,900
running. 
On it yet. 

1581
01:26:40,900 --> 01:26:44,600
So basically if you look ahead 
towards you know the network 

1582
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:48,600
becoming a year or two years old
what do you see as the biggest 

1583
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,100
challenge the 
make-it-or-break-it point for 

1584
01:26:51,100 --> 01:26:53,200
the very ambitiously named in 
her computer? 

1585
01:26:54,300 --> 01:26:56,200
Yeah. 
Well that we don't have to get 

1586
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:57,800
that for. 
I look I'm don't don't believe 

1587
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:00,800
the father misinformation that 
you see on social media. 

1588
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:02,600
I mean, there's a lot of people 
that are very threatened by the 

1589
01:27:02,608 --> 01:27:05,100
internet computer. 
They're very concerned about the

1590
01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:07,400
huge sort of advances that have 
been that have been made 

1591
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:11,600
technologically and it's already
got hundreds of projects 

1592
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,300
building on it. 
It's active User Group growth is

1593
01:27:15,300 --> 01:27:18,000
exploding. 
If you ignore this blockchain, 

1594
01:27:18,900 --> 01:27:23,100
you do so at your peril and it's
no wonder there is no choice if 

1595
01:27:23,100 --> 01:27:26,400
you want to build Adapt, that 
doesn't rely on the cloud. 

1596
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,500
If you want to build a Dap that 
actually runs at web speed, if 

1597
01:27:29,500 --> 01:27:31,200
you want to give users a 
frictionless way of 

1598
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:34,600
authenticating to your dad. 
For example, by pressing the 

1599
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,800
fingerprint sensor on your 
laptop or using face ID, if you 

1600
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,700
want your dap to serve 
interactive content, directly 

1601
01:27:41,700 --> 01:27:44,200
into browsers, secure, all of 
these six, there is no choice. 

1602
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:46,000
You can't use polka dot, you 
can't just put on it. 

1603
01:27:46,008 --> 01:27:49,100
You can't is a theorem the 
theorem to put I wanted dirt and

1604
01:27:49,100 --> 01:27:51,400
even if implemented eventually 
is envisaged, you have no 

1605
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:52,800
choice. 
So to be absolutely clear if you

1606
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,100
really are blocked. 
Blockchain maximalist and you 

1607
01:27:55,100 --> 01:27:58,500
really want to see blockchain 
Singularity as I do. 

1608
01:27:58,700 --> 01:28:01,200
You have to build on the 
internet computer it would take 

1609
01:28:01,500 --> 01:28:05,400
any other blockchain that wanted
to do what we have done would 

1610
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,300
need to follow a similar path. 
You know you need to build a 

1611
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:12,900
huge team of researchers and 
engineers and this stuff 

1612
01:28:12,900 --> 01:28:15,200
requires professional 
photographers and a lot of the 

1613
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:19,200
areas that we work on require 
you know, world-class 

1614
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:22,000
cryptographers of which there 
are only a handful in the world.

1615
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:24,100
I mean, you'd probably aware 
that, you know, our CTO is I 

1616
01:28:24,100 --> 01:28:26,700
called Yank A Manish who's one 
of the world's greatest 

1617
01:28:26,700 --> 01:28:28,800
photographers very famous. 
We've got Yen's growth working 

1618
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:33,800
here, Victor, Shoop, who's a god
of, with photography and just 

1619
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:36,600
really Computing. 
So I get it difficult to build 

1620
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,200
but Dominic biggest challenge. 
What's the biggest challenge? 

1621
01:28:39,900 --> 01:28:44,000
The biggest challenge honestly, 
was actually just building the 

1622
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:44,800
thing. 
Getting this far. 

1623
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,600
It was very difficult for you to
assemble this kind of Kiss. 

1624
01:28:47,900 --> 01:28:50,500
Okay, let me biggest challenge 
ahead of you. 

1625
01:28:51,700 --> 01:28:54,400
You know, I think look block 
chains are very rough and tumble

1626
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,500
space and we've already seen it.
We launched the thing, the price

1627
01:28:57,500 --> 01:29:00,500
went out of control, it had a 
fully diluted market cap of 300 

1628
01:29:00,500 --> 01:29:04,000
billion dollars at one point. 
Then it came down and it went 

1629
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,300
down to some silly price. 
Now, it's going back up, you got

1630
01:29:06,300 --> 01:29:10,200
people, you know, trying to scam
us with lawsuits and squeezes, 

1631
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:13,500
you've got all kinds of 
blockchain projects, which have 

1632
01:29:13,500 --> 01:29:16,800
shells that are threatened, and 
they just sort of just there's a

1633
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:21,200
tidal wave of misinformation and
nonsense and find out. 

1634
01:29:21,500 --> 01:29:23,200
About the internet computer, 
none of which is true. 

1635
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:26,600
So but you know, we're going to 
stay focused on our mission 

1636
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:28,700
which is is blockchain 
singularity. 

1637
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,700
We're going to keep on improving
the, you know, technology as 

1638
01:29:32,700 --> 01:29:35,000
much as we can and we're joined 
in this by lots of other 

1639
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:37,400
partners. 
Now, for example, the things, 

1640
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:39,600
some of the most exciting things
that are coming in the next few 

1641
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,600
months, the service nervous 
system functionality. 

1642
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:46,300
So you'll be able to take your 
dap something like open chat and

1643
01:29:46,300 --> 01:29:49,800
assign it to a service nervous 
system which is basically just 

1644
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:51,800
the form of network. 
Assistant. 

1645
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:53,900
Right? 
Which has its own Ledger of 

1646
01:29:53,907 --> 01:29:56,700
governance tokens. 
The way that will work is that 

1647
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,600
let's say you created open chat,
you press the button, a new 

1648
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,300
service nervous system will be 
credited control of open chat 

1649
01:30:03,300 --> 01:30:05,500
will be assigned to the service 
nervous system so you can only 

1650
01:30:05,500 --> 01:30:07,600
upgrade you know, open chat 
through the service nervous 

1651
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:11,800
system and so on in the future 
you as a developer might get 25%

1652
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:14,000
of the governance tokens. 
The other 75. 

1653
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,200
So the Gunners tokens will be 
auctioned off by the now 

1654
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:18,400
autonomous, open internet 
service. 

1655
01:30:18,700 --> 01:30:21,300
And so essentially, you know, 
the proceeds of the auction 

1656
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:24,000
Train would be held within the 
service nervous system and you 

1657
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,900
got a fully autonomous system. 
So that's like Ico 2.0 3.0 

1658
01:30:27,900 --> 01:30:30,900
whatever you want to call it. 
That's coming soon and that's 

1659
01:30:30,900 --> 01:30:32,200
one of the reasons you got so 
many people. 

1660
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:34,100
So many, I mean hundreds of 
developers building. 

1661
01:30:34,100 --> 01:30:37,000
Now daps on the internet 
computer because they know this 

1662
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:38,400
is coming. 
It's one of the most important 

1663
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:41,500
aspects of what we're doing. 
And then after that, and this 

1664
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,800
is, I guess between four to six 
months away, it's very 

1665
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:49,000
complicated is we are adapting 
chain to technology, so that the

1666
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:51,300
internet internet can be too 
smart, contracts can directly 

1667
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,900
Interact with Bitcoin and 
aetherium without Bridges 

1668
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:56,800
without Bridges. 
And we know why bridges are 

1669
01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:58,100
rubbish. 
We just seen we discussed 

1670
01:30:58,100 --> 01:31:02,600
earlier on what happened with 
this D, Phi Network and people 

1671
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:05,200
are lost $600. 
So the internet chain key 

1672
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,400
cryptography, makes it possible 
for a smart contracts on the 

1673
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,100
internet computer to create a 
Bitcoin transaction. 

1674
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:11,500
Right? 
To give you an idea of how this 

1675
01:31:11,500 --> 01:31:15,200
perhaps might work. 
Let's say Martin hit Martin, has

1676
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:17,600
his own Bitcoin wallet, nothing 
to do with internet computer, 

1677
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,300
has a Bitcoin one. 
There is a small contract on the

1678
01:31:20,308 --> 01:31:23,600
internet computer that Come into
Bitcoin wallet, it maintains a 

1679
01:31:23,608 --> 01:31:29,000
Bitcoin ballots on the Bitcoin 
blockchain and I open my Bitcoin

1680
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:32,600
wallet, which runs on the 
internet computer and I send a 

1681
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,500
Bitcoin to Martin and identikit 
it using internet. 

1682
01:31:35,500 --> 01:31:38,700
Identity by pressing the 
fingerprint sensor on my lap 

1683
01:31:38,700 --> 01:31:41,700
Macbook pro wrestler, 
essentially we're adding smart 

1684
01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:47,100
contracts to bitcoin and this is
possible been made possible by 

1685
01:31:47,100 --> 01:31:49,600
extending, you know, building on
existing chain key work with 

1686
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:54,000
non-directed, EKGs and kiwi 
sharing But doing it for ecdsa 

1687
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,500
threshold sharing. 
So essentially the internet 

1688
01:31:57,500 --> 01:31:58,900
computer nodes will talk 
directly. 

1689
01:31:58,900 --> 01:32:01,200
No Bridges, no, validators. 
We don't believe in that kind of

1690
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:02,600
stuff anymore than we believed 
in cloud. 

1691
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:06,200
And so on the internet computer 
nodes will talk directly to 

1692
01:32:06,700 --> 01:32:10,500
bitcoin and Theorem nodes and 
submit transactions to them and 

1693
01:32:10,500 --> 01:32:13,700
they'll actually observe the 
blocks being produced by those 

1694
01:32:13,700 --> 01:32:15,900
networks. 
So first of all, we're going to 

1695
01:32:15,900 --> 01:32:18,600
add smart contracts to bitcoin 
smart contracts on the internet,

1696
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,800
computer will have their own be 
able to maintain the Bitcoin 

1697
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:27,300
balances and you know, send 
receive hold Bitcoin and then 

1698
01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:30,500
we'll do the same for ether. 
But will also, of course, add 

1699
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:35,300
the possibility for two-way 
bi-directional calling between 

1700
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:38,600
internet computer and ethereum 
small contracts and we think 

1701
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:41,500
this this will be immense. 
Absolutely immense. 

1702
01:32:41,500 --> 01:32:44,400
I mean what is that almost a 
coming up for a trillion dollars

1703
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:48,800
of liquidity on bitcoin and all 
of a sudden people were able to 

1704
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:52,600
build small contracts With all 
of the advantages internet 

1705
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:55,600
provides, you know, they can 
serve interactive user 

1706
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:58,900
interfaces securely directly 
into the into the browser users 

1707
01:32:58,900 --> 01:33:02,900
can authenticate using, you 
know, internet identity, which 

1708
01:33:02,900 --> 01:33:06,300
is in turn, based on a kind of 
chain key technology which 

1709
01:33:06,300 --> 01:33:08,500
means, you know, face i.d., 
fingerprints yubikey, whatever 

1710
01:33:08,500 --> 01:33:12,400
you want to use. 
And you know, to Second 

1711
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:16,500
finality, all of that is going 
to come to bitcoin and aetherium

1712
01:33:16,500 --> 01:33:19,900
and we in the end. 
See you know, Bitcoin and third 

1713
01:33:19,900 --> 01:33:23,800
and the theorem is kind of Defy 
settlement layers and we think 

1714
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,500
the computation is going to take
place on the internet computer 

1715
01:33:26,500 --> 01:33:28,200
blockchain. 
That's where daps were really 

1716
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:33,800
run and you know, a theorem will
become a sort of rails for defy 

1717
01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:37,200
settlement. 
Dominic, thank you so much. 

1718
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:41,600
I have to say, I learned a lot. 
I was following or am following 

1719
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:43,200
the project since many, many 
years. 

1720
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:48,900
And remember your toxin 2015, I 
clearly see that your work and 

1721
01:33:48,900 --> 01:33:51,900
the work of your team has been, 
has been also quite influential 

1722
01:33:51,900 --> 01:33:54,300
for etherium. 
I believe all the bacon shade, 

1723
01:33:54,300 --> 01:33:56,700
and things like that. 
Yeah, for sure, for sure. 

1724
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:02,400
I remember you running around in
Shanghai and preaching be less 

1725
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:06,200
signatures. 
So yeah, I mean, You know, that 

1726
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:07,500
money was meant, I mean, to 
finish? 

1727
01:34:07,500 --> 01:34:10,500
He originally, when I be. 
So, what happened was in 2014, I

1728
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:14,800
was working on a single Pebble. 
I was basically trying to adapt,

1729
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:17,400
traditional presenting 
full-time, consensus, algorithms

1730
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:18,900
for the for the Block Chain 
space. 

1731
01:34:19,500 --> 01:34:22,300
And then I said it took it that 
I abandoned that project for a 

1732
01:34:22,300 --> 01:34:24,900
bunch of reasons. 
But in 2015, I took this 

1733
01:34:24,900 --> 01:34:27,000
alternative path, you know, 
using BLS special signatures, 

1734
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:28,600
and I realized I could create 
random numbers in a 

1735
01:34:28,608 --> 01:34:31,900
decentralized network and that 
this would enable me to create 

1736
01:34:31,900 --> 01:34:35,300
fast blockchains and I raise you
get, ya all the rest of it. 

1737
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,700
But originally, I mean, Divinity
was conceived as a theorem 2.0 

1738
01:34:38,700 --> 01:34:40,900
theorem 3.0, and that was the 
plan. 

1739
01:34:40,900 --> 01:34:42,500
It was never meant to be an 
independent project, but it 

1740
01:34:42,500 --> 01:34:48,200
became apparent that, you know, 
the fear of just wasn't set up 

1741
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:51,300
to do, the kind of R&D that 
would be required to create the 

1742
01:34:51,308 --> 01:34:55,700
internet computer, and that's 
why it became a separate 

1743
01:34:55,700 --> 01:34:56,800
project. 
And, of course, there were some 

1744
01:34:56,800 --> 01:34:59,500
different Visions, you know, our
vision was very cryptography 

1745
01:34:59,500 --> 01:35:03,500
first and we needed to develop a
lot of Novel crypto. 

1746
01:35:03,500 --> 01:35:05,900
So, you know, in some ways it's 
like I think It's kind of 

1747
01:35:05,907 --> 01:35:08,400
ironic, I think, you know, the 
internet computer is really 

1748
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,900
well, at least my interpretation
of the world computer vision 

1749
01:35:12,900 --> 01:35:16,200
that I heard in 2014, and it's 
taken years and years. 

1750
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:19,700
I'm going to Theory, I think, 
because and this is why I think 

1751
01:35:19,700 --> 01:35:22,300
it's, you know, we're at a very 
interesting juncture because 

1752
01:35:22,300 --> 01:35:26,100
they fear of today, is really 
the ethereum of 2014 with, you 

1753
01:35:26,100 --> 01:35:28,600
know, some improvements around 
the edges. 

1754
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:30,900
And the question is, where does 
it go from here? 

1755
01:35:30,900 --> 01:35:35,900
And but, but, you know, I do 
believe that the And computer is

1756
01:35:35,900 --> 01:35:38,600
really the, well compared that 
that's what I you know, set out 

1757
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:44,000
to implement and 2015 and we 
probably I mean, you know, just 

1758
01:35:44,300 --> 01:35:46,400
you know, exerted, absolutely 
massive intellectual and 

1759
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:48,300
Engineering Firepower to get 
this thing built. 

1760
01:35:49,900 --> 01:35:52,000
In my head, too. 
Didn't it does make sense to 

1761
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:55,000
say, well, he theorem is the 
world settlement layer, and of 

1762
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:56,900
course, that's not where you do 
computations. 

1763
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:03,300
And that is much closer or like,
yeah, that's my skills to do 

1764
01:36:04,200 --> 01:36:07,600
internet computer that would 
make much more sense to do 

1765
01:36:07,700 --> 01:36:10,600
computation there. 
I do think there are slightly 

1766
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:15,500
different trade-offs or around 
security and I think we have we 

1767
01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:18,400
have discussed a few Absol to 
me. 

1768
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:22,200
It became much clearer and kind 
of also clear how the two 

1769
01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:24,500
systems might complement each 
other? 

1770
01:36:24,500 --> 01:36:25,600
Well, that I just going to 
select. 

1771
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:28,100
Yeah, I'm just finishing off 
with the, you know, the 

1772
01:36:28,108 --> 01:36:31,900
differences between chain key 
and traditional blockchains 

1773
01:36:31,900 --> 01:36:35,700
where, you know, every single 
transaction is Rerun to create 

1774
01:36:35,700 --> 01:36:39,700
the current state, you know, all
be it, you know, the still, the 

1775
01:36:39,708 --> 01:36:42,700
danger, the blockchain is rear 
at rewound and Rewritten, which 

1776
01:36:42,700 --> 01:36:45,100
is very bad. 
At least it's not possible for 

1777
01:36:45,100 --> 01:36:49,600
somebody to actually steal your 
balance of Right. 

1778
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:53,400
So, I mean, you know, if people 
are concerned about that, you 

1779
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:55,200
know, that's a very strong 
argument. 

1780
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:57,500
Why, you know, theorem can be 
defy settlement. 

1781
01:36:57,500 --> 01:37:01,800
Le in my view will be, of 
course, you know the internet if

1782
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:04,200
it is also designed to be 
secure, mathematical skill. 

1783
01:37:05,300 --> 01:37:08,100
Thank you so much, pleasure. 
Thanks for having me. 

1784
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:10,900
Good luck with the thank you 
project. 

1785
01:37:10,900 --> 01:37:12,900
Yeah, thank you Dominic. 
I think we'd have to have you 

1786
01:37:12,900 --> 01:37:16,400
back sooner than in five years, 
but thank you so much for coming

1787
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:17,100
on again. 
Thank you. 

1788
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:19,600
Blockchain is my favorite 
topics. 

1789
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:24,400
Thanks a lot. 
Thank you for joining us on this

1790
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:26,800
week's episode. 
We release new episodes every 

1791
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:28,800
week. 
You can find And subscribe to 

1792
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:32,600
the show on iTunes Spotify, 
YouTube SoundCloud or wherever 

1793
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:35,000
you listen to podcast. 
And if you have a Google home or

1794
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:37,800
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1795
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:41,700
the epicenter podcast, go to 
epicenter, .t V /, subscribe for

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a full list of places where you 
can watch and listen, while 

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you're there, be sure to sign up
for the newsletter so you get 

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new episodes in your inbox as 
they're released if you want to 

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interact with us guests or other
podcast listeners. 

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01:37:52,900 --> 01:37:55,600
Follow us on Twitter and please 
leave us a review on iTunes 

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helps people find the show and 
we're always happy to read them.

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01:37:59,100 --> 01:38:01,700
Well thanks so much and we look 
forward to being back next week.