1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,880 Nobody goes to Google by typing in their IP address into their 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,520 web browser, and nobody should have to do the same to send 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,600 crypto to their friends or anything like that. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,360 ENS's goal is to improve. Usability. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,239 And it does that by making it easier for people to name the 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,480 resources they use all the time. But what we're doing effectively 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,400 is migrating dot E, the sort of the main registry, to its own 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,760 chain. So ENS 2 represents a complete 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 rewrite of ENS, and at the same time we're moving it to be. 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,600 Truly cross chain in natively the registry, the sort of the 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,480 core component of ENS or or the Rouge as it were will always 12 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:40,760 remain on Etherium. But we're launching name chain 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,720 which is a AZK based L2 which will host all dot ETH names. 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,160 Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the 15 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,040 technologies, projects and people driving decentralization 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,200 and the blockchain revolution. I'm Federica Ants and today I'm 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,680 speaking with Nick Johnson, who is the founder of ENS, the 18 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,160 Ethereum name service. 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It's supported by over 200,000 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,520 Ballot Aires, making Nosys Chain a reliable and credibly neutral 42 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,040 foundation for your applications. 43 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,360 Gnosis Dow drives Gnosis governance, where every voice 44 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,040 matters. Join the Gnosis community in the 45 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,480 Gnosis Dow forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible 46 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,600 Gnosis Chain or secure the network with just one GNO and 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,600 affordable hardware. Start your decentralization 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,760 journey today at gnosis dot IO. Nick, thank you so much for 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,880 being here again. It's my very great pleasure to 50 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,560 be on again. So you have been with us on 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,280 epicentres several times, but for the people who missed it, So 52 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,880 the last time was a year and a half ago. 53 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,200 But for the people who missed it, can you give us the TLDR on 54 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,160 ENS for everyone who wasn't here for the last episodes? 55 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:13,880 So so E&SS key idea is that usability in web 3 ought to be 56 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,200 every bit as as straightforward as it is in web 2. 57 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,200 Nobody goes to Google by typing in their IP address into their 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,000 web browser and nobody should have to do the same to to log 59 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,680 into a website, you know, a Web 3 app or to send crypto to their 60 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,960 friends or anything like that. So E and S s goal is to improve 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,240 usability, and it does that by. Making it easier for people to 62 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,640 name the resources they use all the time. 63 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,680 So the first one that comes to mind is people's crypto 64 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,480 accounts. And so you can use your ENS name 65 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,440 to name your Ethereum account, your Bitcoin account, any other 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,120 chain you like. But. 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,040 We it's also your Web 3 profile, so it lets you consolidate all 68 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,760 of your profile information, have a portable profile that can 69 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,720 be used to cross a variety of different, you know, platforms 70 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,040 and apps. And it can also be used to for 71 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,320 naming decentralized contents such as decentralized websites 72 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,400 through IPFS. Cool. 73 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,440 I think there was a super comprehensive introduction to 74 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,920 kind of like what what what the scope of ENS is. 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,480 Last time we were on, we talked for a very long time about cross 76 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,440 chain functionality. So kind of like when ENS 77 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,200 started, it was very much kind of like an Ethereum main main 78 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,120 net project because kind of like at the at the time that was more 79 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,000 or less all there was and kind of then obviously kind of like L 80 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,600 twos and other L ones. And so came about and there was 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,000 the question of kind of like, how do you actually make those 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,440 interoperate, right? Kind of like do you have a 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:51,800 domain name service for each individual L2, each L1, or can 84 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,840 you somehow marry these together? 85 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,600 So you had super ambitious kind of cross chain ideas back then. 86 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,640 So tell us kind of like what your vision back then was and 87 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,080 how this has evolved and what what kind of has manifested 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,680 itself? Yes. 89 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,640 So you, you raise an important question, which is, you know, in 90 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,160 a in a multi chain world, do you have a different naming service 91 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,600 for each chain or do you have a single one that attempts to 92 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,680 encompass everything? And we strongly believe the 93 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,320 answer is the latter because people don't exist in these 94 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,680 silos on each chain, you know, they, they need a single unified 95 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,800 identity. And although ENS is hosted on 96 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,920 Ethereum, it's not just for Ethereum. 97 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,000 And so our approach to solving this was as you, as you suggest, 98 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,400 a multi chain one. And that involves a lot of cross 99 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,840 chain communication and integrations. 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Effectively what we were proposing and working on back 101 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,400 then is a way for people to delegate their names or their, 102 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,400 you know, entire parts of ENS to other chains and that has very 103 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,840 much flourished since we last spoke. 104 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:08,520 So right now you can get a base dot ETH ENS name, so your name 105 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,280 dot base dot ETH or a uni dot ETH ENS name from Uniswap. 106 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:17,200 Or a variety of others. And in each case, they're hosted 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,160 on the chain of the the issuer's choice and you can register the 108 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,720 name and it resolves just the same as if it was hosted on 109 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,320 Etherium. And we're doing that primarily 110 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,960 using a technology we developed called CCIP Read that enables 111 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:37,160 smart contracts, not just DNS, but we're the primary user to 112 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,520 fetch data from outside the Etherium blockchain in order to 113 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,000 finish their sort of execution. And that makes it possible to 114 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,480 delegate all. Of this to do any arbitrary 115 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,480 chain or even to things that aren't blockchains, like DNS. 116 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,560 So. So where's the data ultimately 117 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,760 stored? They're kind of like I delegate 118 00:06:55,640 --> 00:07:00,160 to. So to use the example of base 119 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,600 dot ETH and you know and. Sub names on base. 120 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,080 The the actual data is stored on base. 121 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,120 The the. L2 when you attempt to enter 122 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:18,480 that name into your Metamask or another wallet, it goes off and 123 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,520 it consults Ethereum mainnet and looks up, you know, the parent 124 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,720 name and finds that that is, you know, then sending a referral to 125 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,120 elsewhere. And it does a query which 126 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,960 ultimately results in looking up the data on base, returning the 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,080 data to the client, which is able to verify trustlessly that 128 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,760 it is actually accurate and represents what's really stored 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,080 on base, and then returning it to the user. 130 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,080 OK, So can you maybe elucidate a little bit more kind of if kind 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,280 of say I I register a name on base, so I'm Ernst dot base dot 132 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:01,000 ETH, do I automatically also have other names? 133 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,080 So kind of like could I also get Ernst dot ETH or Ernst dot 134 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,920 arbitram dot ETH or Ernst dot uni dot ETH? 135 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,640 Or kind of like, is it, is it kind of like a top level domain 136 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,880 system or how, how do I think of this? 137 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,240 So. So ENS is hierarchical, much 138 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:23,200 like the traditional DNS. So if you register you know your 139 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,160 name dot base dot ETH, then that's the only name you have as 140 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,680 a result of that registration, and where it is hosted depends 141 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,640 on what the owner of base dot ETH chose to do. 142 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:37,880 If you register your name dot ETH, then it's registered on L1 143 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,240 because that's where dot ETH itself is hosted. 144 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,039 But once you've done that, you could choose to then delegate 145 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:45,880 that to to any L2 of your choosing. 146 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,160 Right now that's a reasonable technical operation to 147 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,760 undertake, but you know, we fully intend to make that easier 148 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,240 for people to do on their own in future. 149 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,560 OK. So the idea is that kind of like 150 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,080 if I kind of like want all the my first name dot ETH kind of 151 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,640 derivatives, I registered once on mainnet and then kind of I 152 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,000 own all the commensurate addresses on the various Sup 153 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,440 net. So no one else can kind of 154 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,440 register my my name on these on, on, on L2. 155 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:19,640 So is it? Is it? 156 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:20,520 Is it not? Blocked. 157 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,960 It's it's a little different. So if you register your name dot 158 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,920 ETH then somebody else could still register your name dot 159 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,440 based dot ETH because those are considered to be totally 160 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,800 distinct names. OK. 161 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,880 There is a single. Registry a single sort of 162 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,000 indexable names across all chains, though, So there's no, 163 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,560 you know, your name dot ETH on mainnet, distinct from your name 164 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:46,400 dot ETH on base, distinct from, etcetera, etcetera. 165 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,360 It's much like if you imagine a. The old sort of phone exchange 166 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,120 system where, you know, you, you call up an operator and then 167 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,200 they direct you to the operator in, in New York, for instance, 168 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,280 you know, and you sort of get routed through it. 169 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,880 It's similar to that where the system starts at the the top 170 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,080 level, which is on Ethereum, and then you sort of progressively 171 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,360 look up hierarchically to find the, you know, where your name 172 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,800 is actually hosted. Which can only be in one place. 173 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,040 OK. Have you encountered a lot of 174 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,920 kind of domain squatting problems? 175 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,800 So kind of like say, I, I mean, I'm not that big a target, but 176 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,560 say for instance, Vitalik registers Vitalik dot ETH and 177 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:32,360 kind of like some other chain becomes available. 178 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:36,160 I would assume kind of like his name would be the one of the 179 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,160 first registered regardless of whether he does it himself or 180 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,280 whether he doesn't do do do you have any way of kind of 181 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,240 adjusting for that? Yeah, it's a, it's an 182 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,560 unfortunate reality of a permissionless system really. 183 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:54,040 And we definitely do see that sort of thing occurring. 184 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,520 I think it's less pronounced in situations where people have 185 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,680 less expectation of profit. So people don't generally assign 186 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:06,680 a high value to to subnames to subdomains. 187 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,120 And we kind of, you know, that's to our advantage because they're 188 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,200 every bit as useful to an end user as a second level name as, 189 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,080 you know, your name dot ETH. But they are sort of less 190 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,200 desirable to squat. On and therefore more. 191 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,440 Likely to be available, you know, and less likely to be sort 192 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,280 of. Snapped up as soon as they're 193 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,400 issued. But it is a definite issue. 194 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,560 There's not really one good solution. 195 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:35,600 You know, there's a number of approaches that different 196 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,320 issuers and different name owners have taken. 197 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,280 The obvious 1 is that you simply, you know, allow them to 198 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,120 be first and first served. The you know, a more 199 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,600 sophisticated approach is that you can attempt to reserve and 200 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,360 pre issue high value or popular names to the people most readily 201 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,080 identified by them. So, you know, some issuers have 202 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,920 gone ahead and reserved, you know, several thousand of the 203 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,000 most popular names. And then they've. 204 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,600 Either sort of left them there with some process to claim them. 205 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,800 If you can prove you're Vitalic, you get vitalic dot base dot ETH 206 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,240 or they've, you know, proactively reached out to these 207 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,840 people. The, you know, the, the final 208 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,240 option is to set up some sort of disputes and, and sort of 209 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,400 arbitration system, which has historically been an unpopular 210 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,720 option because it's much more prone to abuse by the, the 211 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,640 people maintaining the names. And we really like to emphasize 212 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,200 the importance of, of trustless name ownership in ENS. 213 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,720 But ultimately, if you own the parent name, it's up to you to 214 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,920 decide how trustless you want your sub names to be. 215 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:44,680 OK, OK. That's fair. 216 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,960 Often times kind of wallets resolve addresses even on 217 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,120 networks that they're not registered, right. 218 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:56,480 So for instance, I I own F Ernst dot ETH because that's my name. 219 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:03,800 And kind of like if I send funds to F Ernst dot ETH on noses it, 220 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,280 they still arrive in, in my in my in my wallet. 221 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,480 So how's, how's that handed? Is that just kind of like a 222 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,760 resolution on the wallet on the wallet side? 223 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,800 Yes, absolutely. So, you know, we have a main 224 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,480 record type, you know, Ethereum address was the sort of the 225 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,240 original type. But since then, you know, since 226 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,840 L2's became more popular, that's been generalized to just crypto 227 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,160 address in general. So when the wallet is attempting 228 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,000 to resolve an address, it specifies which chain or coin 229 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,760 type it it wants to resolve. So that can be, you know, any L2 230 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,600 chain that has a chain ID or it can even be any you know. 231 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,880 Crypto chain in general using a coin type, so you can resolve a 232 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,280 Bitcoin address on it as well. And the type of record you're 233 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,960 resolving is entirely independent of the network that 234 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,240 it ends up resolving on. So you could have all your names 235 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,560 delegated to to linear but. You could then use it to resolve 236 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,120 Bitcoin addresses. Well, thank you for shedding so 237 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,040 much light on the cross chain evolution. 238 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,520 Let's talk about kind of like your users. 239 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,520 So kind of I recently saw that you guys integrated with PayPal 240 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,080 and Venmo, which kind of allowing people to kind of buy 241 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,800 ENS domains with Fiat. Who are these users who are 242 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,440 actually buying ENS domains with Fiat? 243 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,400 So kind of like to me kind of like if you're interested in an 244 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,360 Ethereum name service address, I would have assumed you own some 245 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,000 ether. So what goes? 246 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,240 So, so we do have support for buying ENS names with Fiat 247 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,600 through our app, but the integrations with PayPal and 248 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,320 Venmo are primarily for their crypto wallets where it allows 249 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,880 you to send crypto to to ENS names. 250 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,560 From inside their apps, but I think both are important 251 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,120 because, you know, I I alluded earlier that really EN s s job 252 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,240 is usability and a big chunk of that is being an on rampant and, 253 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,120 you know, making it easy for people to have a really easy 254 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,120 starting point in crypto. And so we want to make it very 255 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,960 easy for people to get involved right from from day one. 256 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,160 And they shouldn't have to go through a series of, you know, 257 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,600 steps into involving copying and pasting addresses before they 258 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,320 can get to the point where we're involved. 259 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,560 So we are big. Fans of of involving people from 260 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,480 day one and that ultimately means. 261 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,600 They need to have some way to solve that. 262 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,920 Catch 22 of Like need crypto to register a name and Need a name 263 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,080 to receive crypto. Yeah, that, that makes a lot of 264 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,800 sense. I I totally misunderstood those 265 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,960 integrations, but that makes much more sense that someone can 266 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,440 kind of Venmo me money at at my ETH address. 267 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,840 How how do you handle fees when that happens? 268 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,960 So kind of typically kind of on Rams are pretty expensive one 269 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,000 way or another. And then they they would also 270 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,320 kind of have to cover the, the on chain, the on chain 271 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,960 transaction fees. Yes, so I haven't used the 272 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,720 PayPal integration myself because it's not available in my 273 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,680 country, but my understanding is they they don't charge any fees 274 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,440 over and. Above network fees, at least 275 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,120 from my reading the the material available and so it's it's quite 276 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,800 affordable for their users when it comes to name registration 277 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,080 which we've done through services such as Moon Pay, there 278 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,240 is a markup that that provider. Takes in order to do the crypto 279 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,520 conversion and so on. And of course they have to deal 280 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,520 with things like credit card chargebacks and so on and so 281 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,720 forth. You also had a number of other 282 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,760 notable partnerships since we last had you on. 283 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,480 What about Google and GoDaddy? Yeah. 284 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,800 So, so GoDaddy integrated ENS name support for for DNS 285 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,600 resolution. ENS has integrated with DNS 286 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,599 almost since day one. And so now with GoDaddy, that's 287 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,040 a great deal simpler for users to set up because the the steps 288 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,880 to to have your DNS name work inside ENS are basically that 289 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,200 you have to set up DNS SEC, which is the sort of security 290 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,880 extensions for DNS. And then you have to see it 291 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,359 specific records on your name that say when you resolve this 292 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,480 name and ENES, it should resolve to this address and so forth. 293 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760 And our integration with GoDaddy makes that a great deal simpler 294 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,280 for GoDaddy users because now they can simply go into the 295 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,360 interface and into their Etherium address. 296 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,200 Or other crypto. Chain addresses and it will just 297 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,160 do all of the stuff behind the scenes to make that work. 298 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,960 The integration of Google has primarily been around Google 299 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,280 search, so now you can search any dot ETH address inside 300 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,280 Google search and right up the top of the search results is a 301 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,400 nympho box telling you what it resolves to. 302 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,960 And a link to the explorer. Page and so forth, which was a 303 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,240 great step forward. Yeah, that that's, that's 304 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,680 certainly very useful and I've used that in the past. 305 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,560 You guys have been working on an upgrade to the general ENS 306 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:13,640 protocol ENS V2. Can you detail kind of what 307 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,200 you'd like to achieve with this upgrade? 308 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,120 So kind of like how how will ENS be better after than it is now? 309 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,640 Absolutely. So you know I've already talked 310 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,000 about our cross chain efforts and and that was sort of step 311 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,080 one in being more. Supportive of of multiple 312 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,040 chains. And making it easier for people 313 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,080 to delegate their names and host them elsewhere. 314 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,360 But ultimately that on its own is not enough, because L1 is 315 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,400 becoming. More and more expensive over 316 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:51,040 time and if we want to attract new users who are new to crypto 317 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,120 and who are you know, just on boarding a system where you have 318 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:57,880 to pay, you know, three times as much as the actual dot E 319 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,040 registration cost and transaction fees. 320 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,960 And then pay similar fees when you want to update your name. 321 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,760 Is is simply not practical and we can't even expect users to to 322 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,360 do that and then delegate it elsewhere. 323 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,320 And that means that registering, renewing, updating dot ETH names 324 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,040 has to be much cheaper by default. 325 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,240 And ultimately that means ENS needs its own L2. 326 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,880 So we continue. To, you know, intend to continue 327 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,720 to support other L twos and other off chain systems as first 328 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,560 class citizens. But what we're doing effectively 329 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,320 is migrating dot ETH the the sort of the main registry to its 330 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,000 own chain. And you know, while we were 331 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,080 doing that, we sort of look, took a critical look at the, the 332 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,640 Corey and S infrastructure and said, well, it's been. 333 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,200 I don't even know how many years is it 7 now? 334 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,080 And you know what have we learned in the last few years 335 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,080 about? ENS and what have what's changed 336 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,960 in the the ecosystem that means our needs are different and so 337 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,600 how can we improve the system? So ENS 2 represents a complete 338 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,280 rewrite of ENS. We've, you know, changed some of 339 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,440 the core smart contracts and, and the way things are 340 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,000 structured. And at the same time we're 341 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,200 moving it to be truly cross chain in natively. 342 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:19,080 So the the registry, the sort of the core component of ENS or or 343 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,880 the rouges that were will always remain on Etherium. 344 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,520 But we're launching name chain which is a AZK based L2 which 345 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,040 will host all dot ETH names and can also be used by anyone else 346 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,600 who wants to to host ENS records there. 347 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,880 And we're, so we're moving all the dot ETH names there and the 348 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,520 resolution process will be basically the same as what I 349 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,880 talked about earlier where we can delegate things. 350 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,200 But in this case, we've delegated every dot ETH name to 351 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,360 this new chain. And what? 352 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,080 What's the stack you're using for this? 353 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,960 We're working with consensus and the linear team. 354 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,000 So we're building our own roll up based on linear's stack where 355 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,960 we have a few somewhat odd requirements of our own that 356 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,280 mean we don't want to just use the linear main net. 357 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,800 Chief amongst those, we have very strong requirements on 358 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,960 decentralization. So it's very important to us to 359 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,800 build a credibly decentralized roll up and that means 360 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,440 ultimately becoming a based roll up. 361 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,800 And we have some interesting requirements because it's very 362 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,680 important that when a user makes a change to their name, that's 363 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,960 reflected when users resolve it as quickly as possible. 364 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,520 And so that means that the latency, the time between making 365 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,640 a change, showing up has to be low. 366 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,680 And that's not a metric roll ups tend to prioritize by default 367 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,920 because naively at least that means committing to main it more 368 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,800 often and it means finalizing more often. 369 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,840 And that and introduces additional costs because of the 370 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,520 additional traffic on L1. And we have some some novel 371 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,120 improvements there that can can improve that latency without 372 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,880 additional costs. But that required us to work 373 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,040 with linear to to make a custom chain. 374 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:05,960 Tell me about those improvements. 375 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,760 So though I think the one I'm I'm sort of proudest of is one 376 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,040 that we came out with together with the linear team at a recent 377 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,400 workshop. And that's the insight that what 378 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,960 we really care about is having being able to prove on L1 what 379 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,320 the L2 state is as quickly as possible. 380 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,960 And and by default that means, well, we have to have finalized 381 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,760 on L1. But the observation was made at 382 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,800 this workshop that actually there are other ways to do that. 383 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:41,880 And so effectively what we'll be doing is your typical L2, your 384 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,720 ZK based L2. The way it works is it grabs 385 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,200 batches of blocks and it creates A batch from that and then 386 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,160 generates a single ZK proof that proves the entire batch is 387 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,800 valid. And then it submits that ZK 388 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,760 proof to L1 and the L1 code verifies the proof as valid and 389 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,800 then updates the state for all. Of the blocks prior to that to 390 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,000 be finalized. And so we still do that, but the 391 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,760 observation was that we can generate these proofs far more 392 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,200 often than we need to for finalisation. 393 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,480 And we can use these intermediate proofs that get 394 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,280 generated but not submitted to mainnet as proofs that more 395 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,400 recent states than the most recent finalised one are 396 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,760 actually valid. So what happened? 397 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,720 What will happen when you resolve an ES name that's stored 398 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,600 on main chain is the. The service will return to you 399 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,640 the result along with a proof that that's part of the the name 400 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,640 change state and a proof ZK proof. 401 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,760 That that state is valid and is, you know, subsequent block to 402 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,440 the one that was actually last finalized on mainnet. 403 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,560 So by doing that, we get the latency way down, but we don't 404 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,800 have the massive additional costs of of finalizing every 10 405 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,080 or 15 minutes. OK, that makes sense. 406 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,160 So how often do you then finalize on mainnet? 407 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,680 So, you know, it will be a little flexible in terms of, you 408 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,920 know, mainnet gas prices and load on name chain and so on. 409 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,960 I think our target will be similar to linear where it's in 410 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,000 the region of every hour to two hours. 411 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,720 But ultimately that will only affect things like, you know, 412 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,800 the trustless bridge latency and so forth. 413 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,040 It won't affect name resolution. So if you, if you look at that 414 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,760 in the limit, I mean, you could kind of you could, you could 415 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,920 always think almost think of this as kind of like a sovereign 416 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,080 chain, right? Kind of like even if you even if 417 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,440 you kind of never finalized to mainnet and you can always, you 418 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,080 can always prove that you could finalize to mainnet. 419 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:45,280 So what's, what's this is somewhat philosophical question, 420 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,040 but what's the point? And then kind of like finalizing 421 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,200 to mainnet at all? It's an interesting thought, 422 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,120 yeah. And it's, you know, if you look 423 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,640 at chains like optimism, they're perfectly happy with the seven 424 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,840 day latency. So, you know, optimistically we 425 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,960 don't need to do it so often. We do need to do it. 426 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:08,680 Ultimately though, because we want to be able to send tokens 427 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,240 between chains, you know, primarily for things like paying 428 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,080 for the ENS name registrations and so. 429 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,080 Forth, but also because. A key component of V2 is we want 430 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,640 users to be able to keep their existing guarantees over name 431 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,800 ownership. And that means that users will 432 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,520 be able to move their dot E names back to L1 if they need 433 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,640 the sort of absolute ironclad guarantees of security it can 434 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,080 provide. And so that will also require 435 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,200 using the the canonical token bridge and that will be, you 436 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600 know, somewhat slower, you know, in the bounded by the latency of 437 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:46,080 finalisation. How do How do you move a token 438 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,680 that was originally minted on an A to to to mainnet? 439 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,160 So what we do effectively is we have one token contract on name 440 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,400 chain and that is incorporated into the registry which tracks 441 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,000 all names or all dot ETH names regardless of their state. 442 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,320 And then we have a second contract on mainnet which tracks 443 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,080 only the names that have been moved to to mainnet. 444 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,160 And so when you go to move the name, effectively what happens 445 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:20,840 is the token contract on L2 sends a message to the token 446 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,200 contract on L1 saying, you know, this contract is this, this name 447 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,800 is being ejected. And then it transfers ownership 448 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,880 of the L2 contract token to sort of a holding contract so that it 449 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,000 can't be moved around while it's, you know, effectively. 450 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,240 Held on L1. And then on L1 the contract 451 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,320 mints a new token that represents that same name and 452 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,760 transfers it to the account the user if the user nominated. 453 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,240 OK, so, so tell us about the security assumptions here behind 454 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,400 the sequencer, right? Because kind of like if, if I 455 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,680 kind of, if I want to use my, if I want to move my FN dot ETH 456 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:09,160 domain from name Jane to to mainnet, kind of I, I still rely 457 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,120 on the sequencer to kind of not censor me, right? 458 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,800 And kind of like if I don't, if there's no decentralized 459 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,800 sequencer, I kind of can't force an exit. 460 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,560 Yes, absolutely right. And so there's there's two 461 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,080 solutions to this. One is that we believe having a 462 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,040 decentralized sequencer is very important. 463 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,120 And so our goal is to launch with based sequencing, which 464 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:37,360 means that ultimately any L1. Sequencer can also be a name 465 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:40,880 change sequencer. If that's impractical because 466 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,160 of, you know, development status or or costs, then we're going to 467 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,840 launch with forced inclusion as a basic primitive and then 468 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,120 migrate to based as soon as possible. 469 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,760 And in either case, it's possible to to use consensus 470 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,480 rules to force inclusion of a particular transaction. 471 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,000 The second component is that once you have moved your name to 472 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,640 L1. There's no action the L2 can 473 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,040 take that affects the the resolution of that, because when 474 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,760 we're when resolving it first consults the L1 before checking 475 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 the L2. So assuming you're able to eject 476 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,760 the name once, no compromise or or you know action on the L2 can 477 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,040 can affect that going forward. And when it comes to Migration 478 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,120 day and people migrating over from ENESB 1. 479 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,280 It will be their choice whether they migrate the name to L1 or 480 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,960 to name chain. OK, so given I'm already AV1 481 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,880 user, do I need to do anything or what happens to my name 482 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,200 during migration? Yeah. 483 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,720 So, so effectively what you actually have is 3 choices. 484 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,320 One choice is to do nothing. That's a good choice. 485 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,720 And in that. Event Yes, and in that event 486 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,920 your name will continue resolving indefinitely. 487 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,120 You will continue to use the V1 contracts and so on for any 488 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,800 updates. If you want to renew the name, 489 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,440 you'll still have to do it through the V2 contracts, but 490 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,840 that would have to be the only way you would interact with 491 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,800 them. However, of course it won't show 492 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,080 up in the same NFT collections as any other name. 493 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,960 If you transfer it to someone they would have. 494 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,920 They would then be getting AV. One name and you won't be. 495 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,080 Able to take advantage of any of the new features or 496 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:24,640 functionality, your second choice is to migrate to name 497 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,280 chain. But on L1. 498 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,040 In which case you can now use all the V2 contracts, but your 499 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,200 name is still hosted on L1. And of course, your third choice 500 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,680 is to migrate to name chain, in which case you get the best 501 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,440 benefits of lower gas costs and so forth. 502 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,400 OK, tell me about the new features in a minute, but be 503 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,400 kind of before we before we go into that, how do you think 504 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,200 about the long term scalability? Because kind of like with based 505 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,800 roll ups, kind of what you very much have is kind of this data 506 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,960 availability paradigm where you kind of you, you post all 507 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,480 transaction data to blobs on L1. And currently that's, that's not 508 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,320 a bottleneck. But kind of like if if you 509 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,920 expect kind of like the words main domain, Domain Name System 510 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,800 to kind of move on share, you know, kind of even a significant 511 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,880 proportion of that, certainly that's going to become a factor. 512 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,400 So I think yes and no, you know, definitely scalabilities in 513 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,120 ongoing effort. I think you'd be surprised by 514 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,040 the the volume of like all existing DNS registrations. 515 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,440 You know, I have a a friend whose hobby is downloading all 516 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,280 the root zone. Files and he does this regularly 517 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,680 on a small. Group of Raspberry. 518 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,480 Pies he has, and I. I haven't asked him, but I 519 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,200 suspect the total size is actually. 520 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,440 Smaller than than Ethereum. May need today. 521 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,360 OK, I understand that, but kind of like also the DNS kind of 522 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,400 like the, the scope for that is way, way smaller than kind of 523 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,840 like what ENS intends to become, right. 524 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,000 So kind of like if, if, if I were to kind of send you, I 525 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,840 don't know, we, we went, we went out for a drink and kind of like 526 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,920 I want to refund you £5 for my for, for my pint. 527 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,040 Then kind of, I kind of I could probably send it to Nick dot ETH 528 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,200 or kind of like on any on any other chain. 529 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,920 And this is not something that I would typically do kind of in, 530 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,960 in the DNS. So kind of, I wouldn't, I 531 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,280 wouldn't expect kind of like just, you know, every Tom, Dick 532 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,360 and Harry to kind of have their own domain name registered. 533 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,720 Yep, No, fair enough. And, and considerably schooled 534 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,680 on, on, on it is scalability. You're absolutely right. 535 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,480 I, I think, you know, there's two factors there. 1 is that I I 536 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,520 still do believe that the scalability is is not, you know, 537 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,680 we're no more than an order of magnitude off at worst from. 538 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,560 From being able to handle that sort of volume simply because 539 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,720 although the volume we're talking about is high, it's a 540 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,560 large volume of very small simple transactions and I, I 541 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080 think the, the Etherium. Road map contains enough 542 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,200 improvements to that that I'm not overly concerned about it. 543 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,800 Ultimately it may be more an issue of the cost effectiveness 544 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,240 of this because of course, you know, Ethereum block space and 545 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,200 BLOB space is demand driven and we'd be competing not just with 546 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,440 other ENS users, but with all roll up users. 547 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,480 Ultimately, we we have the option to move data availability 548 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,200 off chain. It's something I'd prefer not to 549 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,800 do, however, because it has the, you know, the absolute gold 550 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,920 standard in terms of. Guaranteeing availability and of 551 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,960 decentralization. Yeah, hear you there. 552 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,960 Tell me about the new features I can access if I decide to not do 553 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,760 nothing but kind of like move my name over. 554 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,840 Yeah. So the, the primary thing I 555 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:53,320 think is when we built ENSV one, we built in upgrade ability and 556 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,600 sort of you know. Indirection in the resolution 557 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,320 pathway, which means that when you set up a name, you can 558 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,000 choose how it's resolved. You can use our standard built 559 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,720 in stuff, or you can use your own custom resolver. 560 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,040 It's up to you. And if you have a custom 561 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,400 resolver, you can build in whatever functionality you like 562 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,800 to change. Her name's resolved, but 563 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,200 ultimately ownership was still controlled under the single 564 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,560 central contract, the ENS registry, which decides, you 565 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,880 know, who owns a name and what the rules are for changing 566 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,040 ownership names, what the rules are for creating subdomains and 567 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,040 so on. And you know, over time we've 568 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,720 increased the flexibility of that. 569 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,240 And they the most recent effort around that was the name 570 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,920 wrapper, which adds sort of additional programmability to to 571 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,920 name ownership, but it's ultimately still limited. 572 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,880 By the V1 architecture's rules around ownership. 573 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,200 The big change in V2 is that name ownership is now 574 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,640 hierarchical, just like the names themselves are. 575 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,440 So if you own, you know your name dot ETH, you can use sort 576 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,560 of any implementation you want to to configure the ownership of 577 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,960 that. We call them registries, and you 578 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,840 can set rules for assuring subdomains. 579 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,840 You can set rules for. You know, for. 580 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,960 Permissions on those and so on and so forth. 581 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,960 And you can do that on main net or on main chain. 582 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,280 And so that makes it much more flexible for for applications 583 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,199 like issuing subdomains and so forth. 584 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,400 And this is not something that a lot of end users may take 585 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,000 advantage of directly, but they will benefit from it by making 586 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,040 it much easier for people to set up sub domain issuance and so 587 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,159 forth so that they can then get the names that represent them 588 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,679 and the applications they're using very easily. 589 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:42,880 That makes a lot of sense. Are there Are there already 590 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,320 applications that you have in mind that kind of like will, 591 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,960 will will make use of this? I think, you know, sub domain 592 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,120 issuance is the the really obvious one. 593 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,400 And you know, previously this has been a bit more difficult 594 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,760 because it's it's relied on things like the name wrapper and 595 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,320 it's had to be a lot more sort of bespoke for people to set up. 596 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,920 The whole thing really revolves around what we think is a very 597 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,440 flexible permissions model. And so ultimately it also means 598 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,600 that you can do things like if you're a developer, you can set 599 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,800 up a name for your app, but you know, we need to do into a 600 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,760 browser results to your app. But you can then also set up 601 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,480 rules that ensure that that name is stable. 602 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,120 So you could set up, you know, version version 1 dot, you know, 603 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,480 Gnosis. Dot ETH or something or safe dot 604 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,320 ETH or something like that. And you can. 605 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,240 Provide an ironclad smart contract enforced, guarantee 606 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,800 that that version is immutable. And as we've seen with the 607 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,920 recent Buybit hack, that that can be a really valuable 608 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,480 resource to have. And all of these things are like 609 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,560 technically possible today with ENS. 610 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,840 They're just a lot more cumbersome to set up than they 611 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,720 will be. Yeah, That that that makes a lot 612 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,320 of sense. Is governance going to change in 613 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:02,240 any way with B2? Not in a meaningful sense, like 614 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:06,160 in the technical aspects, yes, because governance will now have 615 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,880 to manage resources that are held across multiple chains. 616 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,120 But ultimately we will handle it the same way. 617 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,040 You know, token bridging and other things work. 618 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,240 You know, governance initially will continue to be and the ENS 619 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,920 token will initially continue to be on main net. 620 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,480 When a contract that's owned by governance on name chain needs 621 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,600 to be updated, it'll work by sending a message using the 622 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,800 trustless bridge to to that chain to to affect the update in 623 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,000 the long term. But not at launch. 624 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,440 Day I would like to see us, you know, migrate ENS token to to 625 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,400 name chain and therefore most. Of the Dow's. 626 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,480 Responsibilities there and sort of reverse that set up where 627 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,480 where main net changes are made via messages instead of the 628 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,080 other way around. I hear that. 629 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,720 So if you, if you zoom way out, kind of, I mean, obviously there 630 00:36:55,720 --> 00:37:00,680 was kind of this societal mission for ENS, namely kind of 631 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,600 bringing this capability kind of like to the Everyman. 632 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:10,440 If you look at tangible metrics of kind of how people live their 633 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:17,040 lives and kind of like what, what, like what makes them 634 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,440 better? What's the metric kind of you 635 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:25,880 would point to to kind of reflect whether ENS works as 636 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,760 intended? I think, you know, I've always 637 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,120 had a sort of a three-part road map in mind for ENS in the very 638 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,120 long term. The 1st is that people should 639 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,120 generally be able to assume that the app they're using supports 640 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,760 ENS and be surprised when it doesn't rather than surprised 641 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,240 when it does. And I think we're 90% of the way 642 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,400 there to that. You know, ENS adoption in in 643 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,600 apps is pretty good with the notable exchange exception of 644 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,440 many centralized exchanges. And people now have this 645 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,160 expectation that they can use their their ENS names wherever 646 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,880 they need to. The second stage is that users 647 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,240 should not have to deal with addresses at all really, you 648 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:15,280 know, this should be as just as obscure a developer thing as IP 649 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,600 addresses. And we're still a long way from 650 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,600 that. And you know, so that is the. 651 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,760 Thing that I would. Like to to focus on the most 652 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,600 next. And in the final, you know, and, 653 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,840 and much more pie in the sky 1 is that like everyone is using 654 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,880 E&E space naming for, for, you know, all technical resources, 655 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,320 you know, it will take over the world, so to speak, you know. 656 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,400 And the list megalomaniacally. And you know, so, so I think 657 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,000 that that second goal is, is much more the practical one to 658 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,120 be focusing on now. And I don't think it's an 659 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,680 unreasonable one. It's just we need others to 660 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:53,120 prioritize usability as much, you know, we need them to see it 661 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,320 as important as as we think it. Is. 662 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,080 Yeah, I, I hear you there. When you think about time scales 663 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,160 for these developments, is this, is this something kind of like 664 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,000 you you think of in the matter of months, years, decades? 665 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,520 So, you know, one of my favorite saying is, is that people 666 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,360 overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what 667 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,480 they can do in 10 for the next year. 668 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,080 We're very much. Focused on launching. 669 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,520 Name chain and getting it, you know in production and fully 670 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,640 functional and of course our our outreach efforts go on in 671 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,720 parallel with that and are essential part of that 672 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,600 especially since. We're going to need existing 673 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,960 acts and wallets and so forth to upgrade to support name chain. 674 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,960 I don't think it's unreasonable that a decade from now we would 675 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,760 be, you know, in a situation where where crypto is is much 676 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,400 more usable than today, primarily as a result of ENS 677 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,160 names being ubiquitous. I think either we succeed in 678 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,600 making crypto more usable like and by we owning the entire 679 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,000 ecosystem. Or. 680 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:03,040 We watch crypto sort of continue to be a hobby and a side project 681 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,520 and you know, not reach the the mass market adoption we'd all 682 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:07,640 like to. See it achieve. 683 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:10,520 Yeah. What are your thoughts on kind 684 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,800 of the current vibe in the ecosystem? 685 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,880 So kind of having things like I don't really want to call them 686 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,880 mass market kind of applications, kind of like 687 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,360 selling, selling meme coins. Probably to me, this is kind of 688 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,080 like it. This is it's a very regrettable 689 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,960 development, but kind of like it is something that kind of like 690 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,240 appears to to a lot of people and kind of like having that 691 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:45,560 kind of happen on non Ethereum chains as as kind of like a an 692 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,680 Ethereum of the first hour. What does that do to you kind of 693 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,320 your mindspace? What what are your thoughts on 694 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,640 kind of whether when I mean in the classes way of framing this 695 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,120 question is kind of like when is the time to kind of move to 696 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,600 Solana? I. 697 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:10,280 I think that we've now Ethereum has been around long enough to 698 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,240 be able to to extrapolate a trajectory here, which is that 699 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,360 Ethereum researchers and community build interesting new 700 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,640 ideas and then other projects borrow them and sometimes they 701 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,480 do them to more commercial. Or or or widespread success than 702 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,080 the people who originated them. And that's, you know, kind of a 703 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,240 fact of life. In a way. 704 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,320 I, I think that Ethereum still has the most, you know, vibrant 705 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,000 and, and productive developer ecosystem and core developers 706 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,920 and sort of, you know, evolution. 707 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,800 I personally believe that that makes it the best place to stick 708 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,440 around with and where you're going to see the most 709 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,160 interesting things and it has the best chance of succeeding. 710 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,920 But you know, the unfortunate long term truth is that that's 711 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,480 not always. True in the real. 712 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,000 World, you know, Edison got a lot of publicity and Tesla 713 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,960 didn't and you know regardless of their individual merits and 714 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,560 personalities so I don't have a guarantee that that's the case 715 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:12,960 it's just where. I'm, you know. 716 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,920 Making my bets, I guess. Figuratively speaking. 717 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,360 What, what do you think? Kind of like we as the Ethereum 718 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,720 community kind of need to do in order in order to kind of remain 719 00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:28,400 competitive and relevant. I think you know the risk of 720 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,800 sounding like a broken record. Focusing more usability 721 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,320 certainly helps. And you know we. 722 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,600 Most of us are here because we care about building 723 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,520 decentralized systems, but there's also a need to sort of 724 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,080 take a bit of a reality check and and recognize that for a lot 725 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,440 of users, their first steps into the ecosystem will be through 726 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:52,400 centralized clearing houses and that. 727 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,480 Rather than taking a purists approach of, you know, you have 728 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,920 to join by doing this, that and the other thing, and you know, 729 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,840 going to like a peer-to-peer exchange to buy your your first 730 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,880 ether and so on. We should recognize that these 731 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,640 are. Crucial parts of onboarding 732 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,240 people and making that path from, you know, initial steps to 733 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,440 to fully participating in a decentralized fashion as is the 734 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:17,680 really truly important. Thing. 735 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,120 So I, I think kind of like in the ecosystem, there's, there's, 736 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,320 there's often kind of been this fallacy that people believe 737 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,600 decentralization itself is a value to people, right? 738 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,120 Kind of like if you speak with regular people, kind of like 739 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,440 decentralization absolutely is not a value. 740 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,560 It's kind of like what it can, what it can afford, right? 741 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:44,920 So how, how do we, how do we kind of take this super robust 742 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,240 resilient infrastructure and kind of like build user 743 00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:52,160 experiences that are genuinely better than what people already 744 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,320 have? Because kind of like not, not 745 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,000 only do you have to have something that kind of like is 746 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,360 usable, it's in my eyes, it's not, it's not enough to kind of 747 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,440 not be worse than what they already have, right? 748 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,200 Kind of. You have to be kind of like 749 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,440 better in some very tangible way. 750 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,520 Yes, absolutely. And I think perversely, things 751 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,240 like the SC CS hostility towards crypto did a lot of efforts on 752 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,880 Ethereum, a great favour by demonstrating the value of all 753 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,920 of this, because it's, it's much like, you know, locks on your 754 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,400 front door. 99% of the time they're an inconvenience. 755 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,440 And the trick is convincing people that they're an 756 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,520 inconvenience worth having because the, the 1% of the time 757 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,040 that they matter, they, they save you bacon, so to speak. 758 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:43,000 So I think part of it is, is that, but I that, you know, 759 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,520 that's still not necessarily a compelling, a compelling place 760 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,440 to come from. You know, we, we don't really 761 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,960 want to be selling people seatbelts and, and convincing 762 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,000 them that this is a great and sexy seat belt. 763 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,280 It's still a seat belt, you know. 764 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,560 We, we, we do need. To to make the effort to make 765 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,920 these decentralized offerings every bit as as compelling and 766 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,840 as easy to use as centralized ones. 767 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,960 And that is necessarily more difficult to do. 768 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,480 I don't have a silver bullet except you know my my earlier 769 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,680 observation that often the important thing is here here is 770 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,760 having pathways that mean that you can engage to the degree 771 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:21,320 it's. Important. 772 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,800 To you. So things like ETH dot link and 773 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,680 ETH dot limo provide very easy but somewhat centralized ways 774 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,720 for people to access IPFS knowing that that content is 775 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,560 there, they can access it in the easy way. 776 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,000 And if they're using it and their, their ISP or their 777 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,760 government suddenly decides, you know, that's no longer 778 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,240 acceptable to them, that content is there. 779 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,880 And they, they're one small step away from accessing it in a 780 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,480 manner that's much more decentralized and, and 781 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,480 compatible with being, you know, sustainable in a hostile 782 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,480 environment, so to speak. Other things you think we need 783 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:02,320 to be cautious to not do or to not engage in anything kind of 784 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,240 like where you where you think kind of like as an ecosystem 785 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,160 inadvisable to kind of engage in that sort of. 786 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,640 Yeah, I, I think it's it, it matters a lot how you approach 787 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,440 things. And so, you know, reacting with 788 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,160 outward hostility towards legacy systems is is never productive 789 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,040 and. It also ignores the facts that 790 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,280 that very few. Productive things proceed by 791 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,320 revolutions, you know, much, much more succeeds through 792 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,120 evolution. So, you know, partly for that 793 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,120 reason, ENS integrates directly with DNS because DNS is how most 794 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,520 people on the Internet live their lives and use their 795 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,200 systems. And it would be unrealistic to 796 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,600 say, oh, we're just going to wholesale replace it from 797 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,160 nothing. You know, it's much more 798 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,360 productive to say ENS is a system that builds on and 799 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,200 enhances DNS. And adds these additional 800 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,320 guarantees around sovereignty and and uncensorability than it 801 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,240 is to say, you know, we're just going to supplant at wholesale. 802 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,920 And so, you know, I'm sort of cautious of that same approach 803 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,880 when taken to taken. For, for other things in the 804 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,600 Ethereum and the wider, the wider crypto ecosystem. 805 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,560 And, and likewise, you know, thinking seriously about why 806 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,240 these, these principles are important to us, you know, and 807 00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:25,400 it's not to defend the worst bad actors in our ecosystem who 808 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,640 decide to use these, these platforms we build for I'll, 809 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,800 it's to defend the people who are, you know, are, are in 810 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,680 regimes where they're being, you know, their, their ability to 811 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,920 express themselves or to, to engage in, you know, legitimate 812 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,400 political discourse of being suppressed, for instance, you 813 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,680 know, and it's so it's important to, to say, you know, these are 814 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,480 the things we're building for, not just, you know, these are 815 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,920 the, the institutions we're building against. 816 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,240 I think these these are super nice closing remarks, Nick, 817 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,360 where can where can people come to kind of find out more about 818 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,040 ENS, how to integrate, how to kind of partake in government? 819 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,320 Where can they hear you your. Thoughts. 820 00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,640 So the the main resource they should go to is ENES dot 821 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,720 domains. If you want to participate in 822 00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:19,240 the ENS Dow and governments of ENS, it's discussed dot ENS dot 823 00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,360 domains. If you want to learn about 824 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,800 building on top of ENS, then docs dot ENS dot domains and if 825 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,960 for some reason you want. To listen to me more than I'm 826 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,960 Nicky Steve Johnson on on Twitter, although I don't post 827 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,120 there as often as I used to. Super nice. 828 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,480 Thank you so much for being here it. 829 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:39,040 Was my pleasure.