1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 This is epicenter Bitcoin, episode 102 with guest flavian. 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:36,600 Shalom. This episode of epicenter, 3 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,300 Bitcoin is brought you by shape-shift, with no account or 4 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:41,100 sign up. Required is the easiest way to 5 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:44,300 buy and sell. 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Hackers and Safeguard your 15 00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:14,700 identity online with a first-class. 16 00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:18,100 VPN put a high dot me slash epicenter and sign up for a free 17 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:25,000 account today. Hi, welcome to Epson or Bitcoin 18 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,300 the show, which talks about the Technologies, projects and 19 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:29,400 startups, driving decentralization, and the global 20 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,000 cryptocurrency Revolution, my name is Sebastian with you. 21 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,100 And my name is Brian fog and rain. 22 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,000 We're here today, with Flavia shallow Flavia is one of our 23 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,600 recurring. Guest is here for the second 24 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,700 time. We already had come on last 25 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:47,000 August to talk about a coin prism in Flavia has this great 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,500 town of just putting our project after project after project. 27 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:55,200 And he's put out the new project, which is very 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,400 interesting. It's called open chain and we 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,900 wanted to get him on to talk about that and look forward to 30 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:02,600 catching up. So, thanks for coming on, 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:03,900 Flavia. Yeah. 32 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:05,200 Thanks for having me. Yeah. 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,699 We were joking before that. You're basically like a machine 34 00:02:08,699 --> 00:02:11,900 no, like producing projects because the first time he The 35 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:14,700 actually on you already had two projects and I think we only 36 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:18,900 really talked about one of them. So you already had to prediction 37 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:25,500 Market predictions and then you had a caller coins, right? 38 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:29,700 So you came up with the you'd invented this sort of I guess 39 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:32,800 most popular color, coin protocol open assets and then 40 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,800 you also doing this exchange or wallet colored coins wallet, 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,200 right? And that block Explorer so 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,800 already you had a lot. Going on back then. 43 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:49,500 I think in French politics, they call this export exporting a 44 00:02:49,508 --> 00:02:52,600 French talents outside of the national boundaries. 45 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,800 Yeah, yeah. I live in Ireland so I don't 46 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,000 live in France anymore but still French. 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,700 I'm So tell us about what's this what's the status with those 48 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:05,700 project? How is open houses doing? 49 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,500 What about their the wallet and what about your prediction 50 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:10,900 Market? Yes oh well it basically 51 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:17,000 discovered Bitcoin I think now more than two years ago I kind 52 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,700 of you know I've always been passionate about prediction 53 00:03:19,700 --> 00:03:24,200 markets and the time I wanted to build one as a side project as 54 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,600 for a fun project but like the the issue you know, was like 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,100 exit accepting payments also. Did you not pay out to users who 56 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:36,400 win the predictions? So this was kind of always liked 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,900 the the problem with building a prediction market. 58 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,500 So when I heard about Bitcoin, I start started to look into it 59 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:45,200 and then the more I looked into it, the more I thought I was the 60 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,600 perfect thing to use for prediction market. 61 00:03:48,700 --> 00:03:50,900 So basically, I built a the prediction markets called 62 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:53,900 predictions, it still exists today so you can place, you 63 00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:57,000 know, you can place money and different predictions, you know, 64 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,500 there's politics economics, you know scars. 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,900 You know, a lot of different things and yes, it works 66 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:08,200 completely with Bitcoin. So that was my first project 67 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,100 that's what got me into Bitcoin. So that was in 2013 after that I 68 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:17,100 kind of you know when you start learning about Bitcoin you you 69 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:19,000 know some people they get really sucked into it. 70 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,000 So that happened to me and I started to read a lot about it 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,500 started to read about all the different projects that that 72 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:29,000 were happening around Bitcoin and I discovered colored coins. 73 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,800 So the Time. That was kind of the first 74 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,700 application, like the first blockchain 2.0 or like, you 75 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:39,700 know, like the first thing that wasn't currency that that had 76 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,600 been described. And so that was pretty exciting. 77 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,400 They were, you know, some people talking about it at conferences 78 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,800 at the time, but was kind of early stage. 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,400 So there was no, there was no like product at the time that 80 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,400 existed, that was just a small group of people talking about it 81 00:04:54,400 --> 00:05:00,200 on forums and I kind of, you know, had like A vision of, you 82 00:05:00,207 --> 00:05:03,200 know like having digital assets on the blockchain using the 83 00:05:03,207 --> 00:05:07,800 blockchain for transacting so at the time because there was 84 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,000 nothing that existed and I felt like this was you know something 85 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,400 that had a good future. I started to work on you know 86 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,500 incarnate coins and basically I kind of designed protocol like a 87 00:05:19,508 --> 00:05:23,300 new protocol that that didn't exist at the time there was, you 88 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:25,600 know, just a few drafts of different protocols that were 89 00:05:25,608 --> 00:05:28,000 the white paper as well. Think metallic wrote the white 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,300 paper. But nothing was really, you 91 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:33,900 know, satisfactory for the use cases that I wanted to that. 92 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:37,500 I had in mind basically so I develop this open assets so 93 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:41,200 that's the name of the protocol and, you know, because it's just 94 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,000 a protocol. Nobody was really, you know, 95 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,600 nobody could use it without programming stuff. 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,800 So basically, in order to bootstrap the adoption I built 97 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,000 this wallet which which is called coin prism and so it is 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,500 this is also like the name of the company now so we can 99 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:01,400 presume is basically Well, it which is web-based where people 100 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,300 can, you know, send receive Bitcoins as well as colored 101 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:07,300 coins and they can even create their own colored coins. 102 00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:10,000 So it's everything is guided through user interface. 103 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,900 So it takes a few minutes and it's pretty easy. 104 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:19,400 And yeah, after that, we built an API which allows people to 105 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:23,300 programmatically interact with colored coins, Mobile wallet, is 106 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:27,300 to suppose we talked about that last time we talked to, with I 107 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:31,500 was on your show, but yeah, like a Oh, well it for inter it bunch 108 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:35,300 of other things like support for cold storage and so on. 109 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:39,500 And yeah. So and then now last week 110 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:43,600 actually, so we just launched a new new product which is called 111 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,200 open chair before we get into that. 112 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,700 I'm curious. So what's the kind of Attraction 113 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:50,100 you seeing with coin prison and open assets? 114 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:53,500 Because it seemed like to get a big getting, you know, quite a 115 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:56,800 bit of attention and projects being built on? 116 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:59,400 Yeah. So I mean so, Open. 117 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,500 Open assets was sort of, I think the first protocol that was sort 118 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:06,300 of usable and had Tools around it, that was launched at the 119 00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:10,200 time and this Head Start kind of was very useful for adoption of 120 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,900 open assets. And so initially it was like 121 00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:18,700 just, you know, startups or just small like project like groups 122 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:21,000 of people who were trying to do things and experimenting. 123 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,100 So we have like the first week after lunch, we had the crowd 124 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:29,400 sale which was the hair salon in Australia, which wanted to Raise 125 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:32,400 some money to open a new store so they use going prison for 126 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,200 that was just a week after lunch. 127 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:39,100 So that the that kind of small projects and over time, you 128 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:42,300 know, as interest picked up on blockchain technology, which 129 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:46,200 kind of happened in the past, in the past, six to 12 months, I 130 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,300 would say people started to also pick up interest in independent 131 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:54,200 set and just the fact that it was like a simple protocol which 132 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,500 was easy to re-implement. There's no, there's no vendor In 133 00:07:59,700 --> 00:08:01,700 pretty much because, you know, you don't have to use coin prism 134 00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:04,000 to use open assets. It's like there's plenty of Open 135 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,100 Source tools that exist in different languages. 136 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:10,300 It's like very wide. So it people started to get 137 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:14,100 interested into that. Also at the time when ready to 138 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:18,400 wanted to make crypto note, they actually shows up and I said to 139 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,600 do that. Well, then after there was some 140 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,000 changes in management and they decided they don't want to work 141 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,800 with cryptocurrency anymore. So that kind of fell apart, but 142 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,000 I was kind of the big project that started to look into it. 143 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:32,700 It and more recently, there was well, there's basically 144 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:36,000 change.com which is a, it's an API provider, but they're 145 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,400 pivoting heavily towards digital assets. 146 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,600 So they also adopted open assets and they work with NASDAQ and 147 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:46,600 the basically nasdaq's experimenting now with open 148 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,400 assets for their private Market platform. 149 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,100 So this is, this is really as big as it can get. 150 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:55,200 There's also Overstock, which is building their 2-0 platform so 151 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,300 that they probably use a mix of technology and they say they 152 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:59,000 want to be blocked like blockchain, added nasty. 153 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:02,300 In quotes but they're using for the first thing they did they 154 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:06,800 created a crypto bond for like a corporate bond for Overstock the 155 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,700 company, a five million dollar Bond and they created it on open 156 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:12,200 assets. So you can actually find the 157 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,300 transaction on the blockchain which has like you know open a 158 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,200 set marker and so on which shows the the five million dollars 159 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,800 Bond being transacted. So you know now it's it's 160 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,600 getting picked up by lot of bigger companies so it's not 161 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,000 really something for small companies to play with anymore. 162 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,000 It's like something with a lot of traction. 163 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:33,200 Now, and so all this, all this interest interaction around the 164 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,000 open assets protocol, is it generating any business for corn 165 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,400 prison at all or is or they just implementing the open standard 166 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,100 which is open assets? Yeah. 167 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:43,800 So it's much like those big companies. 168 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,600 Mostly they usually, you know, they want they want to deal with 169 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,100 like bigger companies are going present at the moment is quite 170 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:53,200 small. So they so they usually they 171 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,200 rather hire their own people. Their own Engineers to work on, 172 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:58,600 on the technology and re-implement their own stack, 173 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,000 which works Open assets, which is what Overstock data think 174 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,000 they have like, a team of Engineers working on that. 175 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,900 So they, you know, because it's such a simple protocol, it's 176 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:09,900 easy to build your own tools around it. 177 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,900 So that's what they're doing. We still doing some Consulting 178 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:15,700 with some companies which are interested you know in yeah, 179 00:10:15,700 --> 00:10:19,400 independent sets so that there is still some business here but 180 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:21,900 yeah, it's definitely it's marketing. 181 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:26,400 That's expanding so it's it's going to grow very fast at some 182 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,600 point. So so wave The NASDAQ example 183 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:35,000 you mentioned, they want to use colored coins on for their 184 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,100 private chains. But then how does that work? 185 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:41,500 Because color coins is a protocol that runs on top of 186 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:43,900 Bitcoin. You know, what exactly they have 187 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:47,100 in mind or how that's supposed to play out much luck. 188 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:49,700 So, I think NASDAQ they want to use it for settlement. 189 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,500 So in their private Market platform, they have they don't 190 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:56,100 have so many companies that I think they have about 60 191 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,600 companies. It's just private companies. 192 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,000 It's like so It did from their big, you know, public exchange 193 00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:04,400 where, you know, obviously you have like thousands of companies 194 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,900 and there's like millions of transactions per day, but there 195 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,200 are private Market platform is like a test bed for them. 196 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,800 So they have a smaller amount of transactions and think they can 197 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,400 use it for settlements, so they can probably every day, or even 198 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,000 every 10 minutes, they can adjust accounts, but obviously, 199 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,600 I think they might de probably will retain the keys for that. 200 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,400 So you won't be able to join the exchange and, you know, Pate as 201 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,900 an anonymous user because obviously there's a lot of 202 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,400 regulations that that would be violated if you if you were 203 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,800 doing that. But basically I think that use 204 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,900 it for settlement. It's not clear exactly what they 205 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:45,000 plan to do because obviously a lot of it is still hasn't been 206 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,300 really discussed yet. But yeah, so at least in the 207 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,600 initial press release they said they were experimenting with the 208 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,600 benefits. Is this where the idea for open 209 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,300 chain originated is there, is there some correlations there? 210 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:01,100 Because it seems kind of similar from From the open chain 211 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:03,500 protocol. Yes, so open chain. 212 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:07,200 So basically, so so I've been talking to a number of companies 213 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,100 for some time and usually there's some some questions that 214 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:17,200 keep coming back and so one of those questions is scalability 215 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,800 so as we all know Bitcoin has unlimited scalability because of 216 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,600 you know, the fact that it uses proof of work and this 217 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,500 distributed architecture. So it's limited to more or less 218 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:30,300 7 transactions per second. So this is always a question 219 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:32,800 that comes back and, you know, there's ways to address it with 220 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,400 it open assets by using, you know, lightning networks, this 221 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,500 type of things but basically you end up building a lot of things, 222 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,800 you know, a lot of complicated layers on top of it. 223 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:48,600 And so yeah open chain solves that problem by just not doing 224 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:51,900 all of these complicated things and just, you know, stepping 225 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,800 aside proof-of-work, you know, stepping inside the Bitcoin 226 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,100 blockchain even and doing transactions of change directly. 227 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:00,700 That's one question that always comes back. 228 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,600 And another one is the control of the transaction. 229 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,600 So, you know, NASDAQ, they cannot afford having 230 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:11,300 transactions being completely open onto the network. 231 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:13,900 And letting anybody do any kind of transactions? 232 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,800 They, you know, there's a lot of regulations that requires them 233 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,900 to know if all the parties involved to its kind of, has to 234 00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:24,100 work in a closed loop. And then there's some, you know, 235 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:27,100 there's some other restrictions, you know, maybe the, you know, 236 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,800 the the trading can only happen. During day time, for example, I 237 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,100 don't know if that's the case for private Market but might be. 238 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,400 So in that case, you know, that's another type of thing 239 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,100 that they need to be able to restrict there's plenty of rules 240 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,100 that they can actually enforce easily on the Bitcoin 241 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:42,300 blockchain. So that's why open chain kind of 242 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:47,700 provides the way to do that. So the way that I sort of see 243 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,300 this, I mean I we've been we've been researching this for the 244 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:53,500 for last a while Brian and discussing it. 245 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,400 The way that I would explain it in one sentence and I'd like to 246 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,200 know if you think this is correct is It's a distributed 247 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,900 database that gets blocked. Stamped. 248 00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:04,400 Every 10 minutes to the blockchain. 249 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,400 Is that sort of accurate or parts missing there. 250 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,000 You mean open chain? Yeah, yeah. 251 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,600 So it's basically a yeah, it's a database basically, it's 252 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,000 actually built on a database you know because databases have been 253 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,600 around for decades. They kind of work now we're 254 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,000 pretty well. So it's a database except we add 255 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000 on top of that. We had basically her shoulder 256 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,900 transactions and every 10 minutes, we take the cumulative. 257 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Of hash of all of that and we put it in the Bitcoin 258 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,900 blockchain. So the Bitcoin blockchain is 259 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:35,300 irreversible, you know, as we know because of proof of work 260 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:37,200 and it's very expensive to reverse the transaction. 261 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:40,600 So this kind of ensures the immutability of everything that 262 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,100 happened, you know, as part of this cumulative hash. 263 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:49,200 So it kind of protects against their, you know, reversibility 264 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,700 of the of The Ledger while still providing the same scalable 265 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:56,300 scalability as you get from a, you know, a simpler system. 266 00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:58,900 Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to talk. 267 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,300 But then we want to come back. So we have we have a lot of 268 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,900 questions, sort of regarding you need the security, the consensus 269 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,700 because you start getting interesting discussions. 270 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:11,000 I mean, save Asia said they sentence me before as well. 271 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,500 But you know, when I read through it, I was like, well, 272 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:15,700 it's not actually this should be database, right? 273 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:18,900 It's actually Center. I said, wait, which makes sense 274 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,600 when the what you are aiming for is scalability, right? 275 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,600 Because as soon as you start having this issue with consensus 276 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,500 process, it was called ability because Seems almost, I mean, 277 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:36,800 much more difficult at least, but maybe before we get to that, 278 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,400 let's talk a little bit about sort of, what's the structure of 279 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,700 open chain. How is what's the architecture 280 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:47,700 of the protocol? Yeah, so the the idea behind it 281 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:51,900 is for every organization that's issuing an asset. 282 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,100 They would run their own instance of open chain. 283 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:58,900 So if I take the example of, let's say Starbucks coupons, 284 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:01,800 like, you know, which you can spend for, you know, dollars at 285 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,300 Starbucks, they're issued by Starbucks, what Starbucks would 286 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:08,000 run their own instance. And that instance would control 287 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,600 other transactions where you have Starbucks coupons, and on 288 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,300 the other side, maybe you have Well, maybe you have Macy's 289 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:19,200 coupons and those Macy's coupons are controlled by an instance 290 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,100 that that's controlled by Macy's. 291 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,300 And you know, you that way, you know, Macy's has complete 292 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,400 control over what happens to their point. 293 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,300 So they can set rules, you know, you can put its expiration 294 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:34,200 dates, you can, you know, you can freeze an account. 295 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600 If it turns out gift card as been you know stolen from the 296 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,300 store and you know you want to be able to block the points that 297 00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:43,300 were on the card. So you know this is a lot of 298 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,600 fraud with give Guards. So you can you can set the rules 299 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,300 that that much, your business needs basically. 300 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,400 And so we have many different instances. 301 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:57,100 So you know, every organization has their own instance and then 302 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:00,500 you can connect instances to each other when you want to 303 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:04,300 have, let's say you want to swap Macy's coupon for a Starbucks 304 00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:07,900 coupon, then you will have they would have to be connected in 305 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:10,800 some degree in some way. So either they're directly 306 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,400 connected to each other or they're connected to a third 307 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,000 chain. Are you can do this webs but 308 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,800 basically, you can form a like a sort of a mesh network of 309 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,700 different chain, open chain instances and the, you know, 310 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,700 transact assets depending on which connections exist. 311 00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,900 Our show today is brought to you by our friends at shape shape, 312 00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:34,200 shape shift is the fast and easy way to trade altcoins. 313 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,900 They now Support over 50 different cryptocurrencies which 314 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:41,800 includes all the non scam coins that you have ever heard of. 315 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,100 So if you want to trade off going standards, the old way, 316 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:48,400 which means going to some Shady Side like creating an account, 317 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600 given them, your data, depositing coins and hoping for 318 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,300 the best or do is to shape-shift way, which means no account, 319 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:58,700 just to pausing it. And in one minute you You have, 320 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:02,900 you all coins in your wallet? So, if you're a website that 321 00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:05,200 accepts Bitcoin payments or donations, you're going to want 322 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,400 to check out the shift key button. 323 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:09,000 It's a nice little button that you can install on any website. 324 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,900 Just takes a few minutes to add some HTML code to do it and 325 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,300 automatically. This little button will pop up 326 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:19,300 on your website that allows users to pay you in any altcoin 327 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,300 that shapes supports and they just get converted and you just 328 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,000 receive Bitcoin in your wallet. We did it on our donations page, 329 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,200 there's really easy, just took a few minutes and if you want to 330 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,200 learn more about that, you can go to shape-shift dot IO, go to 331 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,000 the API and Tool menu. And check out the Shifty button. 332 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,600 You'll see all the instructions there on how to install it on 333 00:18:35,608 --> 00:18:37,500 your website as well. So we'd like to thank 334 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:39,700 shape-shift for their support of epicenter Bitcoin. 335 00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,200 And what about the structure of the protocol? 336 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,500 Like what what does it contain? Yeah, so basically the so it's 337 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:54,800 it's a simple architecture. So, so Bitcoin needs a 338 00:18:54,808 --> 00:18:58,300 peer-to-peer system because there is no Central Authority 339 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:02,900 obviously so essentially the Bitcoins are issued by the 340 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:06,600 protocol itself through consensus so you don't have a 341 00:19:06,608 --> 00:19:09,500 central Authority. So the network needs to needs to 342 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,700 be peer-to-peer. That's that Something you have 343 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:16,100 to have but peer-to-peer are, you know, it's it's a nice tool 344 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:19,000 but there's also like some issues with peer-to-peer because 345 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,200 it's very, you know, consuming in terms of requiring like in 346 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,100 terms of resources. So it consumes a lot of 347 00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:30,000 bandwidth because you need to you have such redundancy that 348 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,000 there's a lot of bandwidth. It's latency usually would be 349 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,900 higher in peer-to-peer systems because it's harder to obtain 350 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:40,200 mais. So we basically also like 351 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,900 another big reason When their big issue is phones, for 352 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,900 example, or like mobile devices, they, it's hard for them to 353 00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:50,600 connect to a peer-to-peer Network because usually your 354 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,900 mobile network will only, you know, will block some ports and 355 00:19:54,908 --> 00:19:58,000 they won't let you connect to you know for example the Bitcoin 356 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Network or if you know turn the torrent like a BitTorrent or any 357 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,500 kind of P2P Network. So it's harder for mobile 358 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,400 devices to connect to, to a peer-to-peer Network. 359 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,900 So we've basically taken a simpler approach, and we've just 360 00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:14,800 using a client-server architecture because we only 361 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,100 have one note that validates a given asset. 362 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,600 So that's node can be a server and it's actually in the 363 00:20:21,608 --> 00:20:24,700 interest of the of the organization, you know, of 364 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:28,400 having a note that trans well, that's highly available and so 365 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,900 on. So Starbucks has like a big 366 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:33,600 interest in, you know, keeping that node running and having lot 367 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,500 of bandwidth and so on. So they're the ones who are 368 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,900 going to pay for it, but the end users are not going. 369 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,700 I have to pay for it, they're just connect to a server 370 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,000 because, you know, the end-user shouldn't have to pay for being 371 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400 able to use gift cards, like Starbucks gift cards, and 372 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,000 Starbucks doesn't even want to have the end users pay for it. 373 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:54,900 So, it's better alignment of the of the cost essentially, and 374 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,300 it's easier for devices, like lightweight devices, like mobile 375 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,100 phone, to connect to it. Because, well, basically, it's 376 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:05,800 just exposing HTTP, interfaces, and pretty much every device the 377 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,900 world that's connected to the internet can connect through it. 378 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,500 To be, so it's much easier interface to connect to for 379 00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:14,200 lightweight device. So, in this example of Starbucks 380 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,900 points, Starbucks would be the validator node. 381 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:23,800 So they have a an open chain instance, which is just like an 382 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,300 npm, like it's a node implementation and the 383 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,200 participants. So the customers would be 384 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,000 Observer nodes. Yes. 385 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,200 So so there's this concept of of observing notes. 386 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,400 So So an observing note, connects to a validating note 387 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,500 and it receives it receives a copy of all the transactions as 388 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:49,500 they get validated. So basically there's a choosing 389 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,400 web socket so you can actually have an observing node which is 390 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,600 implemented in your browser if you want to but you basically 391 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,000 connect to this web socket and you receive all the transactions 392 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,400 that they get confirmed and that allows you to reconstruct a 393 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,500 complete copy of The Ledger. So you have your own copy of The 394 00:22:06,508 --> 00:22:07,900 Ledger, you can verify everything. 395 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,500 You can calculate the cumulative hash and compare it to what's in 396 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:16,900 the Bitcoin blockchain to ensure that the integrity's, you know, 397 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,800 that everything is, you know, there's still Integrity still 398 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,700 have the correct copy and nothing has been reverted. 399 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:28,200 And the observing notes, they have the ability also to examine 400 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,000 every transaction they can't verify digital signatures, they 401 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,000 can also verify who's doing what. 402 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:41,600 So, there's this concept in open chain, where the validator can 403 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Define when you're when you own the validator, you can Define 404 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,200 administrators. So you define a public is which 405 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,500 which are the public is of the administrators of the instance 406 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:55,000 and those administrators can do things that At normal users 407 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,400 going to do. So they can, for example, issue 408 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,500 tokens the, you know, by default normal users can't issue token, 409 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:04,900 although you can also configure it so that normal users can 410 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:07,900 issue tokens. But, you know, they can also 411 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:10,400 make transactions from two accounts that they don't 412 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,100 necessarily own. Because, you know, in case of 413 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,700 fraud, for example, they might want to revert transaction, they 414 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,800 can also affect permissions, so they can remove the permission 415 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,000 on an account, so that this account can is not allowed to 416 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,100 trade anymore. If If they want to freeze an 417 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,500 account. Let's say so when you do that, 418 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,800 it's visible. That this transaction, let's say 419 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,500 a transaction freezing, an account has been signed by the 420 00:23:33,508 --> 00:23:37,800 administrator so all the Observer can see that, you know, 421 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,900 the administrator Frozen account or the administrator revert, to 422 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:44,400 the transaction. And, you know, basically it kind 423 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,900 of keeps them honest, right? If the validator, that's 424 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:49,700 something that, you know, they start freezing lot of accounts, 425 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:53,400 The observables Observers would notice and two things can 426 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,000 happen. The first One is they might lose 427 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,500 trust. So if their customers they might 428 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,100 they might lose. Trust stop using the service and 429 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:03,700 the state's second thing is the customers. 430 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 If they believe that something illegal happened, they can 431 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,900 actually use The Ledger, the copy of The Ledger in court as 432 00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:12,500 an evidence that the administrator did that because 433 00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,700 everything is digitally signed. There's the signature of the 434 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,000 administrator, and this can hold. 435 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,300 This can be used as an evidence in court, so it kind of keeps 436 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,100 the validators honest. So, but then it's okay. 437 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:29,100 Like the Starbucks model would with the customers or the the 438 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:30,500 customers are Starbucks. Speedy's. 439 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,500 Validator nodes or these Observer nodes, or should it be 440 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,700 some auditing party? Like Deloitte or something like 441 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:36,800 that? Which is auditing. 442 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:41,100 The, the validators copy of the blockchain or not at the 443 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:45,500 blockchain but if their Ledger. Yeah, so the customers can be 444 00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:46,800 observers but they don't have to. 445 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,900 They can also just be just like with lions if he talked about 446 00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:53,100 the case of Starbucks. I mean, if you talk about 447 00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,300 scalability, right? Right. 448 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:58,700 Then you start having huge volumes of transactions. 449 00:24:58,700 --> 00:24:59,700 Oh yeah. Do that. 450 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:01,900 Customers would run. Observer knows as make sense. 451 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:03,500 No. Because they would have the same 452 00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:07,900 number of data, the same volume, that would be coming in. 453 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,100 Yeah, I mean, if you're usually a suppose long term, it would be 454 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:14,700 firms. That would be like auditing 455 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:16,400 firms. Maybe that would be doing that 456 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,900 for the users. You know, it could be like a 457 00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:23,000 consumer protection company, like, organizations that exist. 458 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,200 In some countries. They could No check that the 459 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,800 ledgers are working properly, but yeah, like, yeah. 460 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200 It's depending on the scale, the number of transactions. 461 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:34,100 Yeah, the end users might or might not be able to do that, 462 00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:37,300 but at least the it's possible for someone to do it at least. 463 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:39,100 So maybe it's going to take some more money. 464 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:41,600 Maybe it's going to take some resources to do, but at least 465 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,800 it's possible to do it. Yeah, I think this is this is 466 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,500 interesting though because we've had this discussion profile, 467 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:49,200 right? So there's this been Bitcoin and 468 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,900 there's a whole philosophy around Bitcoin and then there's 469 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,800 been a lot of work on On permission blockchains. 470 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,700 And then a lot of people sort of say our permission blockchain or 471 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:02,600 at least if you read Reddit, then people that are permission. 472 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,300 Blockchain is just a database and this is a sort of like 473 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:10,800 nonsensical statement, right? Because you still have a 474 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,100 consensus process that ministers has rules, you know. 475 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,300 So, but but it obviously isn't the same thing as peer-to-peer 476 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:22,300 Network. We're sort of anybody could join 477 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:24,100 in the consensus process, right? So that's it. 478 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,000 That's a clear difference. But then of course you can say, 479 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,400 well, I mean, in some cases is that even necessary? 480 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,400 Like do you even need to have, you know, 10 entities like 481 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,500 administrating the process together and you know, voting on 482 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,800 blocks or whatnot? Or can you just stop like, get 483 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,600 rid of that? And instead, you know, again 484 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,200 some, you know, enormous scalability and speed and cost 485 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,500 savings as well, right? And then I mean, open chain is, 486 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:53,900 is that right? It goes. 487 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000 Go sort of to The Very extreme to say, what? 488 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,600 We don't need a consensus process, like, there's no 489 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,300 peer-to-peer Network here. This is just a database with 490 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,200 digital signatures. So, you know, you see who this 491 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,700 water. I mean, at least someone sees it 492 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,800 and and then, okay, you can, you can put an observer note in 493 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,900 there. So, let's say somebody has has a 494 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:23,500 record of what that sees there. And then of course you do get 495 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:28,100 some Um, security aspects. Again, I mean, how much? 496 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,600 Of course, that depends a lot on who runs the Observer. 497 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,300 What exactly is the is being done, but it's interesting 498 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:40,400 because then, you know, in a ways is this to what extent? 499 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,200 This is this coming from Bitcoin and blockchain and this or to 500 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,500 what extent is this something that you could do completely 501 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:52,800 independently and is not actually that related Yeah. 502 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,700 It's it's kind of a departure from from Bitcoin and blockchain 503 00:27:56,700 --> 00:28:00,800 I guess it's uses some of the ideas that weren't pioneered by 504 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:07,800 Bitcoin sort of as you know Bitcoin the core feature of 505 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,000 Bitcoin is censorship resistance and it's been designed in a way 506 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,500 that it enables censorship censorship resistance and the 507 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:18,100 transparency is part of you know that you need transparency to 508 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:21,600 enable that. But you know it still is Still 509 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,000 use useful to have a transparent Ledger, even though you don't 510 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,500 need censorship resistance. Obviously, it's not as necessary 511 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,200 because, you know, people have been doing that today for, you 512 00:28:32,208 --> 00:28:34,900 know, for a while without transparency, and it works to 513 00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:36,700 some degree. It's not necessary, but it's 514 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:42,900 still a nice thing to have and also digital signatures are used 515 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:43,900 today. I mean, they've been used for a 516 00:28:43,908 --> 00:28:47,800 while now but not completely across the board, you know, like 517 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,100 There's always a bunch of systems that don't rely rely 518 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,100 completely on trust and do digital signatures. 519 00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:59,400 So if you use something where it's they are enforced across 520 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,400 the board and it kind of increases security. 521 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200 Also, there's this idea of using the blockchain for immutability 522 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,100 or publishing the hash, which is it's kind of a small thing but 523 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:12,200 it's still very nice to have but you know it chooses some of the 524 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,100 ideas of Bitcoin. But yeah, it's still very 525 00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:17,700 different from cryptocurrency. So the important ideas and you 526 00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:20,700 see being used here, Our digital signatures. 527 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,500 So the idea that I guess every transaction is associated with 528 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:29,600 the public key and sign so you I guess you see where it comes 529 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:36,000 from and what is that is that the most important aspect here 530 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,500 that you sort of taking from Bitcoin? 531 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,100 So there's the yeah like the transparency is very important, 532 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:47,400 the fact that anybody can become an observer and replicate The 533 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:48,700 Ledger is I think is very important. 534 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,100 Oughtn't. There's also the fact that, you 535 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:57,100 know, it's a simple API, it's, you know, it's easy to program 536 00:29:57,100 --> 00:30:01,200 against which you know systems tend to be very complicated that 537 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,300 they have load of bells and whistles, but here like the 538 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:05,500 core, the core API is very simple. 539 00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:09,000 Yeah. And also the immutability is 540 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,600 also a nice feature, but yeah, obviously there's no censorship 541 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000 resistance because it's like the assets, the assets were talking 542 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,700 about, you know, you can always go to the company that holds 543 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,100 Those assets like Starbucks, if you're the government and force 544 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:25,100 them to do something, or they go to prison. 545 00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:26,900 So in that case they're going to find a way to do it. 546 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:29,500 Even if the technology prevents them from doing it, they're 547 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:31,400 going to find a way one way or another. 548 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,600 So the either technology is going to help them do it or it's 549 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,200 going to, you know, slow them do it. 550 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,000 But in at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. 551 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400 It's going to happen because they, you know, they they're 552 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,100 still biting the do. Right. 553 00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:47,500 Right. So and of course, one of the 554 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,500 interesting aspects, Stu and and consequences of that. 555 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,700 And I think that's the sort of a logical decision you made there 556 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:56,900 where is that you get rid of blocks, right? 557 00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:59,700 So it's not a blockchain because we're why do you need blocks, 558 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:01,200 right? So you need blocks, of course, 559 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,700 if like let's say there's there's different parties 560 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:06,600 administering, this process, right? 561 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,900 And you know, they may have received stuff in different 562 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:11,800 orders and somehow they've come to agreement, right? 563 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,800 So you bundle them all together and you're sent me around and 564 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,300 then somehow they all say, okay, this is status. 565 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,800 But of course, if there's a sin Real server, but what's the 566 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,400 point of a block, right? You don't need a block. 567 00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:27,000 Yeah, absolutely. And the blocks essentially, the 568 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,100 introduce a delay because when you submit a transaction to a 569 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:32,900 system that's based on blogs, like, you know, Bitcoin you have 570 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,600 to wait for the next block for confirmation. 571 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,000 So it is, first of all, it's not synchronous. 572 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,800 You have to wait for confirmation which is a 573 00:31:38,808 --> 00:31:43,100 different event, so it takes time and even some systems like 574 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:45,000 some systems based on proof of stake. 575 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,900 They are produced The Block time to like few seconds sometimes. 576 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,200 But even few seconds is still a long time for some of some 577 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,700 applications, like trading. For example, is something where 578 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,300 every millisecond counts. So if you have confirmation time 579 00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:03,300 of two seconds, you cannot use it for like, you know, markets 580 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:05,200 and trading because it's, it's too slow. 581 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,300 So, you know, if you do synchronous confirmation. 582 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:11,200 So, basically eliminate the blocks and confirm instantly, 583 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,200 then then it becomes usable for this type of applications. 584 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,300 Let's take a short break so I can take you to Paris. 585 00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:21,900 I walked into lemons on your Bitcoin, the house of Bitcoin, 586 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,700 and the Heart of silicones on CA home, to many startups, 587 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:28,900 including Ledger, and I spoke with LED flash, Avec Ledger, CEO 588 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:33,300 about the all-new unplugged, NFC Hardware wallet, The Ledger 589 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:37,900 unplugged is NFC based Hardware wallet, that you can use with 590 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:43,000 compatible, Android phones, the private keys are stored in a 591 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,800 secure element and you can Use them with wallets such as 592 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,500 mycelium and green beads each time you want to make a 593 00:32:50,508 --> 00:32:54,500 transaction, the signature will be done by the unplugged and 594 00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:57,100 this way, your private Keys is critical data. 595 00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:01,000 Will never be exposed to the Android from. 596 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:06,100 This is a secure way to use your Bitcoins undergo in mobility and 597 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:09,400 you will also be able to pay directly with the unplugged with 598 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,500 compatible point-of-sale terminals. 599 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,700 The larger unplugged is the simple solution for secure 600 00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:17,200 contact list. Point payments, you can get the 601 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,300 unplugged at Ledger wallet.com. And when you use the code 602 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:22,900 epicenter at checkout, you'll get 10% off your order. 603 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:25,700 By the way that code works on their entire range of products. 604 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,300 So we'd like to thank Ledger for their support of epicenter. 605 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:31,700 Bitcoin. Let's get sound this topic of 606 00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:34,900 consensus. One thing that we mentioned 607 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:39,000 earlier is, before the show, is this idea that, you know, the 608 00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:44,100 valid, the observer in our roads could do real-time auditing. 609 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:48,100 So in, in this case, of Of Starbucks or perhaps, like, you 610 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:52,600 want to do a stock exchange rather than having auditing at 611 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,300 the end of the month or the end of the year, you could have 612 00:33:54,300 --> 00:34:01,100 auditing happening in real-time. And the value of having the hash 613 00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:03,500 of all the transactions added to the blockchain, every 10 minutes 614 00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,000 is that you can point to that transaction in that hash. 615 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,900 And all of the Observer nodes can say, okay this come to a 616 00:34:09,908 --> 00:34:12,900 consensus I guess without knowing each other that all 617 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:15,800 these transactions happen. Because you know, there's The 618 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,800 proof of it in the blockchain. Does does this imply that you 619 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,500 could have multiple observers? I don't necessarily know each 620 00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:29,800 other and You can still validate that these transactions took 621 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:36,000 place and then what is to stop? The validating node from sending 622 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,400 different copies of The Ledger to the different Observer notes? 623 00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:42,000 Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah. 624 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,199 But you can definitely have multiple observers that don't 625 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,500 know about each other and actually it's even possible to 626 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:51,300 have observers expose the transaction stream so that you 627 00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:53,900 have like a second level of observers that connect to the 628 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,200 first level of observers. And, you know, it kind of built 629 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,300 sort of a graph or three. I would say, where, you know, 630 00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:02,900 you can actually scale out nicely like this. 631 00:35:02,908 --> 00:35:07,200 You know, you would have just for, let's say for observers at 632 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,900 the first level, then you have 16 at the second level and then 633 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:13,800 in the 64, the third level. So it's it's it's much easier to 634 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,900 scale this way and what? Yeah, you're right that The 635 00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:20,700 Observers could send different versions to different observers, 636 00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:24,700 but if they do that, the cumulative, hash, for those 637 00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:26,900 different observers would be different and one of those 638 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600 Observers with realize that the cumulative hash doesn't match 639 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,100 what's in the blockchain. So the blockchain is like that 640 00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:33,800 part that everybody has to agree on. 641 00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:35,400 You know. It is. 642 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,100 That's the one thing that ensures that there's only one 643 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:43,000 version of History, right? And so in your dock in the 644 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,400 documentation, you mentioned that you can do or you can do 645 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,600 like a large volumes of transactions and those 646 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,000 transactions get the passion to the blockchain and which comes 647 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,400 up to if you do once, if you hash If you send the hash, once 648 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,100 every block that comes up of ten dollars a month or something 649 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:06,300 like that, what would be some of the criteria that would push an 650 00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:08,900 organization to say role? Rather than push. 651 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:11,700 These two every block will push them to every 10 blocks or every 652 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,800 100 blocks because you can you can also you can also adjust 653 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,100 that, right? Oh yeah. 654 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:19,200 You cannot just a frequency depending on your needs, you 655 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,200 know? If you don't have a lot of 656 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,500 transactions, maybe you know, over ten blocks is enough. 657 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,300 If you do it every ten blocks, you actually save 90% of the 658 00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:28,600 cost. So Like $10 for every block 659 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,500 according to the current fees. I mean the fees vary over time 660 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,800 if you you know you divide it by 10, if you do it only every ten 661 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,300 blocks, you know, if you do it once every day then you you're 662 00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:39,600 going to pay less than a dollar per month. 663 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:43,700 And this is, you know, there's no point in any case, there's no 664 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:47,600 point having more ink anchors than more than one anchor per 665 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,700 block because it doesn't add anything. 666 00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:53,800 You know, the block is like a it's like a snapshot in time. 667 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,700 So you know if you have two anchors at the same time as you 668 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:59,200 need, Doesn't bring more so you don't need to have more than one 669 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,100 per block but you know what the the maximum resolution you can 670 00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:06,400 have is one per block and it gives you the same level of 671 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,300 irreversibility as you get with Bitcoin because with Bitcoin you 672 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:12,700 have to wait 10 minutes before you know that the transaction is 673 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:14,800 in irreversible. So it's the same level of 674 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,300 irreversibilities. So so, you know you mentioned 675 00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,000 that? Yeah, you can have instant 676 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,800 confirmations, right? So essentially, I mean tried, 677 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,600 like, let's say I make a transaction. 678 00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:29,200 I send it to The validator. And now, of course, if the 679 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,200 ballot because the valid isn't charged, you can immediately 680 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,800 say, okay, you know, like just actually proved right. 681 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:39,800 But that also means there is no security there, right? 682 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:46,200 Because he could throw it out again and but there's nothing. 683 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,100 I mean the chain would be perfectly valid, right? 684 00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,700 I mean it's true that if you have like the chain hashed in 685 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:54,500 between, you know, then the hash, you know, you can't throw 686 00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:58,000 out things that let's say before the hash I mean, you could throw 687 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,300 them out but at least it would be noticed, people would say, 688 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:05,800 okay, well, what happened here, but otherwise, if I other than 689 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,600 just sort of do whatever they want with it, right? 690 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,100 They can they can go back and change the sequence of 691 00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:13,000 transactions or they can just block incoming transactions. 692 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:13,900 I think that's what you mean. Brian. 693 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,300 Is that incoming transactions? Get just thrown out. 694 00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:20,700 You could you could put a transaction and say like add it 695 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:24,100 to the to the chain of transactions but then later take 696 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:25,200 it out again. Yeah. 697 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,800 So blocking a transaction is kind of there. 698 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,900 Right. If they want to block it as long 699 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:31,000 as you tell you that it's been blocked, it's fine. 700 00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,500 But yeah, they could, like you said, they could accept the 701 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:39,500 transaction, tell you that it got accepted and 10 minutes 702 00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:42,700 later when they published the hash then that transaction is 703 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:45,300 not in the chain anymore. So yeah, if you don't trust the 704 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:49,200 validator, you might need to wait for 10 minutes to be sure 705 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,800 that the transaction has been confirmed. 706 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,300 But usually, in this kind of setup, the end user would trust, 707 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:56,800 the validator, which was the company. 708 00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,000 Because the validator, you know, you would trust Starbucks to you 709 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,000 know, tell you when the transactions are confirmed for 710 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,800 their point is that there's no points ready for them to cheat 711 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,000 on that right? I mean another small question so 712 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,700 how would you so? So they put the hash in the 713 00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:18,700 blockchain, how would you know black is it possible to see if 714 00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:22,100 the which hashes or like tie together with previous hashes or 715 00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:25,100 like does that you have to see that from somewhere else someone 716 00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:29,700 else's go and say okay these are The has just that belong to that 717 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:33,900 open chain. So basically you, when you 718 00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:37,900 configure your opinion instance, you give it to the private key 719 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:42,000 of a Bitcoin address, which should have some funds and then 720 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,300 the, the hashes are published from that address. 721 00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:46,100 So like the fees are taken from that to dress. 722 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:50,300 And so, actually, we have one a dress like this for for the test 723 00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:52,700 instance that we have. So, so far there has been like 724 00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:56,400 five or six anchors since since when we rebooted it. 725 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,800 Like a couple of days ago so you know every time you know every 726 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,200 like every so often he publishes a harsh there and every 727 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,400 basically every instance would have a different address that 728 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,600 they would use. So that's how you identify. 729 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,000 That's a nice way of handling that but yeah. 730 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,300 So now I was just saying you need to keep finding that 731 00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:16,500 address with Bitcoin to pay those transaction fees. 732 00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:19,000 Yeah, yeah. So you need you need like to 733 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,800 fund it like for like 10 then depending on the fees you know 734 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,500 ten twenty dollars per month to make sure that you can still 735 00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:26,800 publish the hash there. So it's using up return. 736 00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:29,200 It's pretty simple. It's just or per turn and then 737 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,600 change. And then some some goes to the 738 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,400 fees as well. But it's a very small 739 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,800 transaction but you still need to pee like a small amount of 740 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,200 fees. And what's nice about this is 741 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,200 that you can always look at that address and you can just see the 742 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,100 list of transactions basically in in one big one address. 743 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,100 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 744 00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:50,700 You can see the list and then every anchor has also the number 745 00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:54,200 of transactions that are encapsulated into that hash. 746 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,400 So you can track, you know, like what stage Every anchor is that. 747 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,900 Let's take a short break and talk about height of me. 748 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,000 Hi dummy is a VPN provider and if you don't know yet, why you 749 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,100 should need a VPN provider. Let us help you. 750 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,800 I'm sure you'll like me. And when all the crazy 751 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,300 Revelations came out during the Snowden time of all the spying 752 00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:20,100 that is being done by the NSA and other government agencies. 753 00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,400 You were shocked and you said not with me, not with my own 754 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,800 right now, the way government agencies can spy on you. 755 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,900 There's a many of them but the most Easiest way is by simply 756 00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:36,600 going to your ISP and getting all your traffic capturing, all 757 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,600 your traffic and the VPN can protect you from that. 758 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,600 It can give you a secure tunnel from your computer to any of the 759 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,100 exit nodes all over the world. So that all your traffic goes, 760 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:51,000 this secure pipe, that's encrypted and cannot be intruded 761 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,500 on. And with height of me, you can 762 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:55,800 choose any of their 30 exit nodes all over the world. 763 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,800 So you can enter the internet in a secure location. 764 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,700 The best thing about High Dot me is that they have a free plan 765 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,600 which includes two gigabytes of on throttled bandwidth per 766 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,600 month. So you can go to hide that me / 767 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200 epicenter to create your free account and when you use that 768 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,000 URL you'll automatically get 35% off if ever you decide to go 769 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,800 premium. Now the premium plans are really 770 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,500 great. They include unlimited bandwidth 771 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:21,700 access to all of the 30 exit nodes of. 772 00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:25,900 Hi dot me provides and you can install it on up to five devices 773 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:28,100 at a time so you can have this running on your phone, your 774 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:31,000 tablet, your computer. Work your personal computer and 775 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,700 just be completely protected all the time and of course hide that 776 00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:36,900 me accepts Bitcoin. So we'd like to thank High Dot 777 00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:38,900 me for their support of epicenter Bitcoin. 778 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,000 Sebastian million. I'm stealing your great 779 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,800 question, Sebastian, he made an increased even interesting 780 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,000 observation before and so, well, let me let me take a step back. 781 00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:58,000 So one of the things that a Terry's, right? 782 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,400 We do is that you say okay, you sort of take the consensus 783 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,800 really put it in a smart contract, right? 784 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,700 So, you could have like, let's say one party in control or you 785 00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:09,200 could have multiple parties, so it seems like here as well. 786 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,400 Okay. You, maybe you say it's fine. 787 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,600 If just Starbucks is in charge because, you know, they can 788 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,600 always refused to give me the coffee anyway, but maybe also, 789 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,000 you say, well, I don't want to Starbucks in control. 790 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,500 I want. Maybe these three entities in 791 00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:28,700 control, or like you might want to have all kinds of rules 792 00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:31,100 regarding that. So it's the same as able to 793 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:35,400 pinpoint your well, could you run an open chain as a 794 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,200 distributed application? Would that be possible? 795 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,600 That's might be possible. Yeah. 796 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,000 I haven't really thought in that direction but it might be 797 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:46,600 possible. Yeah. 798 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,100 But going back to like having multiple parties controlling, 799 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,200 let's say Starbucks transactions or let's say for the purpose of 800 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,100 this example. Let's say it's like paper Lee. 801 00:43:56,100 --> 00:43:59,800 There's like a PayPal chain and you have other companies 802 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,900 validating the PayPal change it. So you have also like visa and 803 00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:06,000 MasterCard. And then on the PayPal chain. 804 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,600 So people chain kind of controls the funds, you have on PayPal, 805 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,800 and Alice makes a payment to Bob like $100. 806 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:17,600 So Bob has $100 and then PayPal decides that the transaction was 807 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,900 fraud or something in the derivative transaction but visa 808 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:25,000 and MasterCard don't agree. So the Visa and MasterCard 809 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,600 refused to take that transaction. 810 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,000 So they essentially Fork assuming that you would have 811 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,700 like this consensus, you know, with PayPal visa and MasterCard. 812 00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:35,400 Visa and MasterCard would Fork into a Version of History, where 813 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,200 the reversal didn't happen. So but still has a hundred 814 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:42,600 hundred dollars, but as far as PayPal is concerned, Bob doesn't 815 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,600 have a hundred dollars anymore. So when Bob comes to to PayPal 816 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,000 and tries to withdraw his hundred dollars, he says okay 817 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,300 I'm the main chain I'm supposed to have a hundred dollars to 818 00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,700 give me those hundred dollars. You know I want to withdraw into 819 00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:56,300 my bank account paper is going to say no because you know as 820 00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:58,700 far as we know, you don't have $100 the transaction was 821 00:44:58,700 --> 00:45:02,100 reverted so and there's nothing that the user can do it. 822 00:45:02,107 --> 00:45:04,600 You can say, okay, we look but like the other Isn't the main 823 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,300 chain. Think that I have $100, right? 824 00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,200 The end up by the end of the day you need to to resolve this. 825 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,500 In course, maybe or, you know, that's the only way. 826 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,200 So it doesn't really change the bottom. 827 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,600 Well, I don't think I agree with you, and I think in the example, 828 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,200 you gave that would would be an indication that the chain and 829 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,400 the contracts, you know, if we talked about this being an, 830 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:30,800 like, a smart contract land, or the chain wasn't set up 831 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,900 properly, right? Because if, if it's a thing 832 00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:38,100 where we're like the ultimate judge of, you have $100 with 833 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:41,500 PayPal or not, it's just PayPal. Well, yeah, then PayPal should 834 00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:44,700 be able to make that decision. But other things, you know, you 835 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:48,600 may have different rules, right? Or you may have multiple parties 836 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,500 being in charge or So so then you might still have a process 837 00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,800 of like let's say, for example, payment is reversed but, you 838 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,100 know, maybe you encode who gets to choose in that process, like 839 00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:03,400 where does it go? You know, I mean I think there's 840 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,500 all kinds of things you can do. I mean, you certainly right that 841 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,600 it's crucial for these kind of things that they're sort of the 842 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,800 state of the chain is in accordance with the state of, 843 00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:18,500 you know, the legal stage. So you know someone controls the 844 00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:21,500 sort of the reality they have to be able to Those changes in the 845 00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:24,300 chain. Otherwise it becomes irrelevant 846 00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:26,600 what you have on there. It's Tricky though. 847 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,500 Because at the end of the day, those hundred dollars are going 848 00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,800 to leave on someone's bank account, you know, maybe okay in 849 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,400 my case it's PayPal's bank account. 850 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,100 So people has all the controls but even if it's a bank account, 851 00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:40,300 that's controlled by the three companies, it means that in that 852 00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:44,000 case, you have some kind of legal structure which 853 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,100 encompasses Visa, Mastercard and PayPal, and in that case, that 854 00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:49,900 legal structure becomes the legal structure that can be. 855 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,600 That can maintain the ledger so you can of always have to have 856 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,200 an owner. You cannot really have an asset 857 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,500 that's being. I mean, as far as I know, as far 858 00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:59,900 as loading is law is concerned. You cannot really have an essay 859 00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:02,000 that belongs to many people at the same time, there has to be 860 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000 one legal owner, that legal owner, is the one that would be 861 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,800 in control of their later. But, you know, maybe laws will 862 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,300 change in the future and maybe it's possible to have this kind 863 00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:15,000 of setup, but it's still very tricky. 864 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,400 Yeah, it's definitely true that It's tricky to get these things, 865 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,100 right? I was gonna talk about, The I 866 00:47:21,107 --> 00:47:23,300 want to talk about the technical implementation, so, can you 867 00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:29,400 describe how a company would Implement an open chain server? 868 00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:34,900 Yeah, so I mean like if we're going to take Nicole detail, so 869 00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,600 we have documentation website. It's dogs that open change.org 870 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,100 and there's like a lot of documentation and there's one 871 00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:43,500 document that explains how to deploy an instance. 872 00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:49,900 And so it runs on right now the supported mode of deployment is 873 00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,800 through Docker which is like a container system. 874 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,100 So it's an easy way to deploy applications its kind of popular 875 00:47:58,100 --> 00:47:59,900 at the moment. So it's the type of thing you 876 00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:03,900 just install Docker on your Linux machine or it also works 877 00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:07,100 on OS X and windows. By the way, you just install it 878 00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:12,800 there and then and then you just execute the few common lines 879 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,700 that are described on the, on the, on the documentation 880 00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:17,800 website. And and then, you're going to 881 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,600 have your instance and there's a configuration file, which you 882 00:48:20,607 --> 00:48:22,700 can modify. And so, that configuration file 883 00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:26,700 today, it has a few settings that you can change. 884 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,300 So the first one, is the public keys or dresses? 885 00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:32,900 The administrators. So if you want to be an 886 00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:35,600 administrator you would generate HD wallet. 887 00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:39,200 You would, you would generate a public key from that HD wallet 888 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,400 and put that public key into the configuration file. 889 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000 And so from that point on, you can use that HD. 890 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,600 Well, it's to sign an admin transactions so you can a 891 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,500 Bitcoin HD wallet. Yeah, so we actually open chain 892 00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:56,100 uses the same elliptic curve as Bitcoin so all the libraries 893 00:48:56,100 --> 00:48:59,700 that you can use for sending transactions with Bitcoin like 894 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,400 Bitcoin Or Bitcoin J and so on you can use the same with open 895 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,200 chain. So yeah. 896 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,700 You generate HD were late and then you you sign administrative 897 00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:11,400 transactions with that key. So like you can, you know, 898 00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:15,200 change permissions on account. Yeah. 899 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,800 The the structure of a can see is hierarchical. 900 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,200 So you can, you can set a permission at a, you know, at 901 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,100 top level and that applies to all these sub accounts below 902 00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:27,400 that you can walk, you can do a lot of things. 903 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,300 As the admin another city. That you can configure is 904 00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:38,300 whether you want to allow the end user to to issue their own 905 00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:40,300 assets. So if you want to have a ledger 906 00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,700 where anybody can issue their own assets, then you can turn 907 00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:45,100 you just set it to true and that becomes possible. 908 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:48,700 There's a few other settings and then once this is all 909 00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:52,200 configured, you just set up the, the permissions on The Ledger 910 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,000 and so permissions, they have there's a number of permissions, 911 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,100 so there's the right to spend money so you you can associate 912 00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:02,500 an Accounts with a public key and give it the right to spend 913 00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:05,800 money, which means, then that this public key is allowed to 914 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,900 sign transactions spending money from that account. 915 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,800 There's also the right to receive money, so you can by 916 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,800 default, you can either set it to allowing everybody to receive 917 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:17,700 money. So in that, case, in your 918 00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:22,900 account, can receive money, or you can use like more like more 919 00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:25,400 pattern where you have to be wait-listed to be able to 920 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,300 receive money. So if you want to only allow 921 00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:30,300 your users to be able to receive money, then you use it. 922 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,800 False by default and then you enable only some accounts, some 923 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,000 public keys to receive funds. And there is a few of the things 924 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,500 you can also. So you can store what's 925 00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:46,600 interesting is because with Bitcoin, obviously it's a common 926 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,200 blockchain, everybody shares the same Block Chain. 927 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,000 So there's a lot of limitations in what data can be put in the 928 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,300 blockchain, but with open chain because you're the one who sort 929 00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:57,800 of it's your service running on your server, so you're paying 930 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,300 for the hosting cost so you can put as much data. 931 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,800 As you want, basically There's No Limit because, you know, 932 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,200 you're the one and it's not even really a, you know, it's not 933 00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:07,900 replicated on six thousand nodes. 934 00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:11,000 So it's not as expensive even so you can store kilobytes or 935 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,600 megabytes of data if you want. And you can also give the right 936 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,000 to the users to store their own metadata. 937 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:20,200 So we use that metadata for a few different things you can, 938 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,000 for example, Define the terms of service of your instance. 939 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,600 So there's a special piece of data that you would put which is 940 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,200 bit with a special name and the user. 941 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,300 When they connect with their wallets, they will see that 942 00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:34,400 terms of services and they have to accept it. 943 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,300 For example, you can. Also we also use this ability to 944 00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:43,300 store data to store a Asset definition on the later. 945 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,100 So when you create an asset you can, you can say, okay this this 946 00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:51,700 asset is called the epicenter of coins and it has this icon and 947 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,400 this is the short name and so on much like you do with gold 948 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,400 coins. Yeah exactly. 949 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,200 Except in the case of open chain is actually stored in the later 950 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,500 itself so it's all completely signed all the way in its part. 951 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:05,200 You know, it's actually a transaction that creates that 952 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:06,900 data and put it in the blockchain so it's all 953 00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:09,600 completely unified with colored coins. 954 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,900 It was a bit more complicated because we cannot put so much 955 00:52:11,900 --> 00:52:13,600 data in the blockchain, the Bitcoin blockchain. 956 00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:16,700 So instead we store the data outside of the blockchain and 957 00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:20,200 would refer to it with the URL. So it's not as elegant with open 958 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,500 chain you can put their data completely indirectly. 959 00:52:24,500 --> 00:52:25,600 Yeah. So there's a few Few of the 960 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,000 things you can, you can have also pointer records. 961 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,300 So you can have an account pointing to another account with 962 00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:33,900 a pointing, with the pointer record. 963 00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:36,900 So, whenever someone sends money to that Source account, they 964 00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:38,900 automatically get forwarded to the other account. 965 00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:42,400 Yeah, so there's plenty of things, the plenty of features 966 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,500 like this, that can be done by using data records. 967 00:52:44,900 --> 00:52:47,300 Okay. And so you also have client-side 968 00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:50,500 libraries then, so then you can easily deploy wallets and 969 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:55,200 applications that use open us or sorry that use a open chain. 970 00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:59,500 Yes. So I mean we have to the the 971 00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,900 wallet has been open sourced and it's completely web-based 972 00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:05,600 because we're talking about HTTP apis. 973 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,500 So it's pretty easy to program. A web-based interface to deal 974 00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:11,700 with that in this completely open source. 975 00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:15,700 And actually, we use, you know, there's no complicated things 976 00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:18,300 really happening in there. It's just, I would say, the most 977 00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:20,700 complicated thing that happens is signing the transaction. 978 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,900 And for that, we use bit core which is the library that the 979 00:53:23,900 --> 00:53:27,000 open source library from bitpay. And it's just a few lines of 980 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,900 code with bit core. You just signed your transaction 981 00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:32,200 and then send it to the server. So it's actually pretty simple 982 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,100 and, you know, it's in any language. 983 00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:35,500 You could deal with it pretty easily. 984 00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,900 Okay. And so regarding the capacity, 985 00:53:39,900 --> 00:53:44,000 so, you know, your Starbucks for instance and you deploy instance 986 00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:47,700 and then all of a sudden, you start getting into the thousands 987 00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:51,900 of transactions per second. How does the server architecture 988 00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:54,400 have to scale? Is it pretty low balance? 989 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,800 Or, you know, if you start Into those High service or 990 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,500 transaction volumes. You have to have like perhaps, 991 00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:03,000 you know, a pretty hefty server or you know, distributed servers 992 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,100 around the world that are managing these Ledger's. 993 00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:06,700 That are validating transactions. 994 00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:10,300 Yeah, it's a very good question. So, actually open chain has kind 995 00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:13,300 of this, modern architecture, and we have this concept of 996 00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:17,100 storage engine and, you know, by default it uses a, just a 997 00:54:17,107 --> 00:54:21,300 simple, you know, SQL database locally, but we plan to add more 998 00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,000 support for more storage ends in engines and potentially, you 999 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,600 would be able to store data in the like scale of databases like 1000 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,900 a Cinderella or mongodb and those are, you know, made for 1001 00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:33,900 scale. You know, you like Facebook and 1002 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,600 Twitter. And those guys, this tour, you 1003 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:41,200 know, thousands of terabytes of data in those databases and and 1004 00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:44,200 when you will be able to use those databases as a storage 1005 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,300 engine, then yeah, it's then it's easy to implement scale 1006 00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:49,600 out. You would have, you know, you 1007 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,700 can have like 16 notes shortly, no shorting the data and storing 1008 00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:55,100 hitch. Some part of the data is 1009 00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:57,900 replicated, And so on. And so you can Ensure High 1010 00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:02,600 availability as well as, you know, scalability scale out. 1011 00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:05,400 So it that would be a way to scale. 1012 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:10,500 Basically, we rely on. Well, that is possible because I 1013 00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:13,500 mean it seems like that or would you have to compromise on? 1014 00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:18,000 For example, the instant confirmation, then if you start 1015 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,600 shortly. So naturally, I mean, you would, 1016 00:55:23,300 --> 00:55:26,900 you would still commit the The the database into Cassandra. 1017 00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:30,900 So, you have different. So, you know, I don't know if 1018 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:33,200 people are familiar with Cassandra, but there's many 1019 00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:37,800 right modes and there's some right modes where you have, you 1020 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,900 know, delays consistency. Some of them, were you have 1021 00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:43,200 instant consistency. If you use there is a cyst like 1022 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,400 a system called Quorum, where you write to a majority of nodes 1023 00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:51,800 and by doing that you ensure that there's actually you know, 1024 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,100 it works actually with consensus, you know, Cassandra, 1025 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,400 implements its own consent, This is mechanism. 1026 00:55:57,300 --> 00:55:59,500 So when you write to majority of nodes, you know that the data is 1027 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:03,500 committed and even if you lose a note, you you don't do the data. 1028 00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:07,000 So you can still, you can still have instant confirmations. 1029 00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:09,400 It might be a little bit slower, of course, because now you're 1030 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,700 talking to different notes. But this is the type of thing 1031 00:56:12,700 --> 00:56:15,100 you can scale, you know, like, you know, like I said, Facebook 1032 00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:18,300 Twitter are using those, those databases and they, they 1033 00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:19,700 obviously have a very large scale. 1034 00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:27,100 Today's magic word is open. Ope n head over to, let's talk 1035 00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:30,700 Bitcoin.com to sign in enter the magic word and claim your part 1036 00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:42,600 of the listener award. So regarding the security model 1037 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,200 and sort of linked to the Privacy model. 1038 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:55,900 Could you have Have a an open chain Ledger that is behind a 1039 00:56:55,908 --> 00:56:59,200 firewall. So you want to have sort of a 1040 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,600 private? Private Ledger. 1041 00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:13,400 How would you prevent I guess your Observer nodes from leaking 1042 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,200 the data outside of that? You know behind that far wall, 1043 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:23,800 if indeed you could Yeah, so if there's plenty of models that 1044 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,400 can work. So but the fact that it's a 1045 00:57:25,408 --> 00:57:28,200 server means that you if you Shield it, if you put it behind 1046 00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,200 a firewall, you can prevent anybody from accessing accessing 1047 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:33,200 it. So if you want to use it 1048 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,100 internally for your organization but you don't want to let other 1049 00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:39,100 people accessing it, you just use it on an intranet, for 1050 00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:43,900 example, or on into your local network and then only it's get. 1051 00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:46,400 Then, you can only be used with from within your organization 1052 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,900 and you can still have Observer notes but they will be inside 1053 00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:54,600 the Organization obviously. So yes, they like the kind of 1054 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,800 architecture, you know, Network architecture that people have 1055 00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,300 been doing in the past 20 years. This type of thing completely 1056 00:57:59,300 --> 00:58:01,300 applies. One thing that's also 1057 00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:05,200 interesting is because it's exposing HTTP interfaces, you 1058 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,800 can put it behind cloudflare so cloudflare for, you know, I 1059 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,700 don't know if you're familiar, it's a service that provides 1060 00:58:11,700 --> 00:58:16,500 DDOS protection, so they sort of intercept the course and then 1061 00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:20,300 forward them to your own server. So they have a free tier Which 1062 00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:22,700 is very good and then they have like Pro additions and so on. 1063 00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:25,900 But they basically protect again DDOS attacks and lot of 1064 00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:28,400 different attacks, the provide caching and so on. 1065 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,000 And so you can, you know, if you want you can put your server 1066 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,400 behind cloudflare to protect it against the dose like everything 1067 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,800 that works with web servers. Today there's a lot of tools 1068 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,000 that works with web servers you know for 15 years a lot of 1069 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,400 things have been running on web servers everything all of this 1070 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,400 can work with open chain because it's using HTTP interfaces. 1071 00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,200 Okay, that's interesting but but sir Regarding privacy, though. 1072 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,200 If you are you, if you're using open chain behind a firewall, 1073 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,200 you'd still have to trust the lowest common denominator not 1074 00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:04,600 not to To leak the data of your Ledger outside the system. 1075 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:06,900 Yeah. If you want to use it just 1076 00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:09,800 internally, then you would not expose it at all to the outside. 1077 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,400 And The Observers would also have to be inside you would need 1078 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,000 to make sure that you, I mean, you would, you wouldn't trillion 1079 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,700 have you wouldn't really be able to have observers outside of the 1080 00:59:17,700 --> 00:59:20,200 network because they couldn't connect it to the validator node 1081 00:59:21,500 --> 00:59:23,300 but yeah. And then if you you know it 1082 00:59:23,308 --> 00:59:26,400 depends what, what the scope of that instance is supposed to be, 1083 00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:28,100 if you want to expose it to the outside. 1084 00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:31,800 Then yeah, you you can. Farewell, but if you wanted to 1085 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,800 remain internal, then you need to make sure that the validator 1086 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,200 node and all the Observer notes are within the firewall. 1087 00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:42,900 So one of the use cases that, it seems like this is tiered for, 1088 00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:46,200 and you mentioned before is the idea of trading, right? 1089 00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,500 Because you certainly right that block chains aren't very good at 1090 00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:52,900 that, you know, I mean, Bitcoin certainly wouldn't be useful for 1091 00:59:52,900 --> 00:59:56,600 that and then even if you take like permission chains, you 1092 00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,700 still have problems, right? As you mentioned, right? 1093 00:59:58,700 --> 01:00:01,100 If there's a curfew second confirmation, Nation time and 1094 01:00:01,100 --> 01:00:05,200 well, that's probably too slow. So, one of the interesting 1095 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,700 things here and I'm curious how that's going to work. 1096 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,200 Is the idea that would you in a trading, use case? 1097 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,100 Let's say we wanted to stock market with open chain, would 1098 01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:20,700 you have a different open chain for each stock? 1099 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,300 And would those be issued then by the company or would like, 1100 01:00:25,300 --> 01:00:29,700 let's say NASDAQ would have like one open chain that includes 1101 01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:33,400 all. The stock of the entire stock 1102 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,300 market. It's an interesting question. 1103 01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:41,600 So right now, there is this, this concept of stuck 1104 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,800 depositories which is like the dtc's in the US and there's a 1105 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:50,100 few also in Europe and this is where the stocks are held 1106 01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:53,600 ultimately. So those those companies could 1107 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,400 be the ones running no punch and edger and the, you know, have 1108 01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,600 people, you know, instead of having this nice. 1109 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,600 This Very tiered approach where you have like a repository then 1110 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,800 you have Brokers, and you have the exchange, you could have the 1111 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:11,200 depository, holding the stocks, exposing a open chain Ledger and 1112 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:12,900 then everybody could connect to that directly. 1113 01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:16,200 So you can eliminate a few intermediaries, that's one way 1114 01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,300 to do it. And then you could as far as the 1115 01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:20,600 exchanges are concerned, you know, if you're an Asda, can you 1116 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,400 your you want to run an exchange? 1117 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,000 You would have maybe second instance where you have tokens 1118 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:32,800 that represents It's kind of a proxy for a token on the at the 1119 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:37,700 dtcc, for example. So and then you still don't have 1120 01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:40,200 to do reconciliation because everything kind of happens 1121 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,200 automatically. You can have like, a smart 1122 01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,000 contract in a way that makes sure that everything is always 1123 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,500 in sync, but still, but then you can use the NASDAQ, has the 1124 01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:55,100 ability to have their own, sort of small instance, where all the 1125 01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:58,700 trading happens and for let you know, to go back to your first 1126 01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:00,200 question, if you would have different. 1127 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,800 Instances per different stocks. I mean everything is possible. 1128 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,800 You can have multiple, you can have just one instance with many 1129 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,800 different stocks on it. But let's think for again, for 1130 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,800 scalability, just very practical reason, it would probably be 1131 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:18,400 better to have one server / security, but you know, 1132 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,400 different leaders, many architectures possible depending 1133 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,000 on, you know, the the creativity. 1134 01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,900 So it's so that that kind of leads into the next question. 1135 01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:33,700 No, because if you start, Having 100 chains with one chain / 1136 01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:37,300 security. How can those interoperate? 1137 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,900 Yeah. Basically there's a concept of 1138 01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:45,000 Gateway so you can establish a Gateway from one chain to 1139 01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,300 another. And what it does is it creates 1140 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,800 let's say you have Starbucks points on the Starbucks chain 1141 01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:53,500 and then you want to have a like you want to have like an 1142 01:02:53,500 --> 01:02:56,900 exchange for Starbucks point. So that's exchange for Starbucks 1143 01:02:56,900 --> 01:02:59,300 points. You on that, on there, you would 1144 01:02:59,300 --> 01:03:03,400 have special I'm Takin that that is a proxy for the actual 1145 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,500 Starbucks points on the the Starbucks chain. 1146 01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,800 And so you would as far as Starbucks would be, is concerned 1147 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,400 would be an account. And when someone would want to 1148 01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:17,700 transfer Starbucks point from the main Starbucks chain onto 1149 01:03:17,700 --> 01:03:20,900 the exchange chain, they would send it to that special accounts 1150 01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:24,900 that you own and now you as the exchange you, you kind of on 1151 01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:28,000 that point and you create the equivalent on the, on the 1152 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,200 exchange chain and then you give it to that. 1153 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,600 There because you can map that user different ways. 1154 01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,700 Like the easiest way to do it is by, you know, giving it to the 1155 01:03:37,700 --> 01:03:40,000 same public key. So as you know, as long as the 1156 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,100 person has the public key, you know, that it has it because it 1157 01:03:42,100 --> 01:03:44,600 sent the Starbucks point from that public key. 1158 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,300 So you can give it to the same public key. 1159 01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:50,000 But on the other chain and then, on the extension, you can run 1160 01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:52,100 your exchange. You know, you can have rolls, 1161 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,200 you know, specifically for that exchange, and people can cash 1162 01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,400 out from the exchange by sending it to again, to a special 1163 01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,900 account on the Exchange chain, which unlocks the coins on the 1164 01:04:02,900 --> 01:04:06,600 main Starbucks chain. So, what I just explained, it's 1165 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,000 actually very similar to the concept of side chains. 1166 01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:12,400 This is actually, you know, the exchange chain would be a side 1167 01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:13,900 chain of the main Starbucks chain. 1168 01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:18,700 And you can actually have a chain like an open chain 1169 01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:20,800 instance, which would be a side chain of the Bitcoin blockchain 1170 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:22,200 as well. This is also possible. 1171 01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,800 But so yeah let's talk about the example right because let's say 1172 01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,800 you you had you know you're allowed to put Bitcoin on some 1173 01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,300 open chain. So that means you would put them 1174 01:04:32,300 --> 01:04:36,500 in a certain account, I would be controlled, I presume by the 1175 01:04:36,500 --> 01:04:40,000 validator of the open chain on the Bitcoin Network and then 1176 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,800 that validated with issue you a Bitcoin token on the open chain. 1177 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,100 Is that how it work? Yeah, that's how it would work. 1178 01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:50,100 Although it says it's possible to decentralize it's a bit 1179 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,600 because we're talking about Bitcoin, so a setup that would 1180 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,200 be interesting is to it. Actually doesn't really have to 1181 01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,800 be the validator although it's probably no actually doesn't 1182 01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,600 even have to To be the validator, could be a third 1183 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,300 party company or group of companies which come together, 1184 01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:10,900 they create a multisig, address amongst all of those and and 1185 01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:12,400 that multisig address is the Gateway. 1186 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,600 So when you want to send Bitcoins from the main chain to 1187 01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,700 the side chain, which is like that specialist open chain 1188 01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:20,900 instance, descended to the multisig address. 1189 01:05:21,300 --> 01:05:25,100 So it gets locked by all those. Let's say five companies and 1190 01:05:25,100 --> 01:05:28,900 then those five, and then they, and then it took on is issued on 1191 01:05:28,908 --> 01:05:31,000 the side chain. Then, you know, People can trade 1192 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,900 that took and represent exactly when Bitcoin people can trade 1193 01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:37,500 under chain and when they want to cash out the send it to an 1194 01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:39,800 address which is again controlled by those five 1195 01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,200 companies. But on the side chain and and 1196 01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,100 then the five companies unlock the coins on the main chain and 1197 01:05:46,100 --> 01:05:48,100 give it back to you on the main chain, right? 1198 01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:52,200 But I mean, I can see that making some sense, especially 1199 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:56,600 glad say, If you think one of those multisig, addresses, or 1200 01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,200 something would be controlled by people running, like Observer 1201 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,800 notes on the Unchain right. Exactly. 1202 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,500 Would be, yeah, but still though, because if he say, there 1203 01:06:06,500 --> 01:06:09,200 is an account that's like, controlled by the same three 1204 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:13,700 entities, let's say on the open chain, I mean, in the end every 1205 01:06:13,700 --> 01:06:18,100 account on the open chain, you know, if if the validate, you 1206 01:06:18,100 --> 01:06:23,200 can reverse transactions. And yeah, but this is where this 1207 01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:27,100 is a very good observation and what would happen is that the 1208 01:06:27,100 --> 01:06:30,200 the five or three entities that control that multisig address 1209 01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:33,800 They would be observing The Observer notes and if they 1210 01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,100 realize that the administrator reverses transactions and they 1211 01:06:37,100 --> 01:06:39,800 don't agree with this reversal of those transactions. 1212 01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:44,700 And let's say, you know, you have money that you shouldn't 1213 01:06:44,700 --> 01:06:47,800 really have and they know like the five Observer notes agree, 1214 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,300 that you shouldn't really have that money then they just 1215 01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:52,300 wouldn't sign the transaction when you try to cash out. 1216 01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,500 So when you trade a cash out, you still get need to get the 1217 01:06:54,508 --> 01:06:58,500 signature of those five companies and because they're 1218 01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:02,100 observing and they realize that it was not right, that can just 1219 01:07:02,100 --> 01:07:04,700 refuse to give you or your money because you, you have money that 1220 01:07:04,700 --> 01:07:07,100 you shouldn't have. So, even if the administrator 1221 01:07:07,100 --> 01:07:09,800 reverse is transaction, then the Observer knows still have the 1222 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,200 power of controlling the coins in that multisig address. 1223 01:07:12,300 --> 01:07:13,400 Yeah, that's right. Right. 1224 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,700 Yeah. So you could have that security 1225 01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:18,400 that the Bitcoins would be. Yeah. 1226 01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,600 Presumably reasonably secure at least if the Observer nodes, 1227 01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:27,200 would be able to see and know what's going on, right? 1228 01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,600 Because it might not, I'm not sure if it will always be 1229 01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,800 obvious. When I mean yeah I mean this 1230 01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,100 service that those five companies they would run 1231 01:07:36,100 --> 01:07:39,200 probably special software to identify any type of transaction 1232 01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,400 that that's not right because you know, they would be running 1233 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,800 this type of service but this setup is actually exactly what a 1234 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,000 Federated side chain is. So this is you know this is 1235 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:49,800 basically you can set up a Federated site. 1236 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:51,800 Yeah, abscess on a train. Yeah. 1237 01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:58,700 So before we wrap up like to get Mimi, you're sort of your views 1238 01:07:58,700 --> 01:08:01,700 on where the Bitcoin ecosystem is going. 1239 01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:08,500 And we've seen a proliferation of these protocols and standards 1240 01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:10,200 that are built on top of Bitcoin. 1241 01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,700 And you know it seems like it was just yesterday that Bitcoin 1242 01:08:14,700 --> 01:08:17,899 was going to be the currency that was going to everybody was 1243 01:08:17,899 --> 01:08:20,600 going to use it but now we're seeing that in fact you know 1244 01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,500 companies and Enterprises and Joe. 1245 01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,000 Of larger players are building all this infrastructure on top 1246 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,100 of Bitcoin and using Bitcoin, not necessarily as a payment 1247 01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:34,300 mechanism but as rails on which other Protocols are implemented. 1248 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,700 Where do you see this going in the next five to ten years? 1249 01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:40,600 Yeah, I think I see Bitcoin becoming more of an 1250 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:44,000 infrastructure service. You know like this the fact that 1251 01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,100 you can publish a hash and it becomes mutable, you know, like 1252 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,700 like open Chinese doing, it's very valuable and I think people 1253 01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:54,300 are going to realize that You know, Bitcoin is going to. 1254 01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:57,700 It's going to stay as a store of value just because of that that 1255 01:08:57,700 --> 01:09:01,500 value that it provides to as an infrastructure as a currency. 1256 01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:03,899 I don't know if I see it as a currency because there are still 1257 01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:07,700 a lot of problems to overcome for people to use it as you 1258 01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:11,100 know, for payments and this type of things we need works, okay. 1259 01:09:11,100 --> 01:09:14,100 But do user experience. You know when you try to pay in 1260 01:09:14,100 --> 01:09:15,700 a store I mean it's not great right now. 1261 01:09:15,899 --> 01:09:18,700 There's a lot of progress to be done and I'm sure it is going to 1262 01:09:18,700 --> 01:09:22,700 evolve over the next 5 years and 10 years it's like You know, 1263 01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:25,600 it's such a long time for this type of things, you know, five 1264 01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,300 years ago, Bitcoin was barely, barely existed. 1265 01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:31,700 So who knows? You know how the user experience 1266 01:09:31,700 --> 01:09:35,600 will I will have improved in five to ten years but yeah, like 1267 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,700 those companies you know there's always this debate there like 1268 01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:42,500 with the blockchain without Bitcoin versus Bitcoin, I think 1269 01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:44,500 it's like two different use cases, two very different 1270 01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:47,200 things. Those companies trying to build 1271 01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,300 a blockchain. What they want is like, like a 1272 01:09:49,308 --> 01:09:52,500 secure system with like nice properties like, you know, it 1273 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,700 Ability and transparency. And digital signatures did not 1274 01:09:56,700 --> 01:10:02,000 necessarily interested in for it, as a payment, like, as a 1275 01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,800 commodity, like, Bitcoin is, but Bitcoin itself, as a commodity, 1276 01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,600 is very useful for some things as well, which is not what the 1277 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,500 banks are interested in. But it's different use cases, 1278 01:10:11,500 --> 01:10:14,500 but it's still very interesting. Like the fact that, you know, 1279 01:10:14,508 --> 01:10:17,100 you can store the fact that it's like gold but digital you know. 1280 01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:19,900 So if you want to buy gold it's not very easy. 1281 01:10:19,900 --> 01:10:21,600 If you want to buy physical goal, you have to start 1282 01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,300 somewhere. So definitely using Bitcoin is a 1283 01:10:24,300 --> 01:10:28,400 much easier way to do that, you know, Bitcoin has also has this 1284 01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,400 property of censorship resistance. 1285 01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:35,200 So I mean okay I'm it's definitely useful for some of 1286 01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,700 the illegal use cases. I mean, there's I mean, I'm not 1287 01:10:37,700 --> 01:10:41,100 saying it's a good thing but at least you know, it's useful 1288 01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:43,800 there and just because of that, it's not going to disappear. 1289 01:10:45,500 --> 01:10:47,200 So it definitely has its use cases. 1290 01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:48,800 It's just not what the banks are looking at. 1291 01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,100 Or like, you know, the financial institutions are looking at. 1292 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,400 It's too different. Think think blockchain is kind 1293 01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:58,200 of in the middle but it's like very like two different angles 1294 01:10:58,500 --> 01:11:00,500 really but they both have their merits. 1295 01:11:01,300 --> 01:11:02,100 Yeah. Absolutely. 1296 01:11:02,300 --> 01:11:07,900 So when it comes to you like coin prism as a company, is your 1297 01:11:08,300 --> 01:11:10,500 plan. Now to build a business around 1298 01:11:10,500 --> 01:11:15,400 open chain and also is it because for a long time it was 1299 01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:18,200 confusing was basically mainly you, is that still the case? 1300 01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:25,100 Or is there a larger team? Now, so it's still me the main 1301 01:11:25,100 --> 01:11:28,600 person on the team, you know, working with like few people 1302 01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,400 part time but yet like we're still looking to grow the team, 1303 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:34,400 you know, in the next few months. 1304 01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:40,500 Hopefully, but as far as far as product goes, yeah, obviously 1305 01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:44,600 going prism and colored coins are still still around and we we 1306 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,600 want to, you know, also keep our focus on that. 1307 01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:52,800 And as a matter of fact, will will also allow pegging And 1308 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:57,500 assets tokens from the main chain to, as to open chain 1309 01:11:57,500 --> 01:11:59,600 instance. So, you know, like I was talking 1310 01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:01,800 about using open chain as a side chain. 1311 01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,000 Well, it's not only going to be for Bitcoins. 1312 01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,900 Also going to be for current coins, so and we're going to, 1313 01:12:06,900 --> 01:12:09,900 you know, enable that kind of scenario, so that people who 1314 01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,400 want kind of The Best of Both Worlds, they can use the open 1315 01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:16,600 chain for scaling and then they can then go back to the main 1316 01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:22,100 chain for settlement or whatnot. So it's kind of two sides of the 1317 01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:23,800 spectrum. Um, and we still want to, you 1318 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,800 know, to be able to have offerings on both sides, on the 1319 01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,200 permission left side, which is Colonel, Cowen and Bitcoin 1320 01:12:30,500 --> 01:12:33,000 because there's some use cases where it just works better. 1321 01:12:33,300 --> 01:12:35,400 And then on the permission side as well because you know, 1322 01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:38,100 there's also use cases where permission the makes more sense. 1323 01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,000 So we want to again keep the offering on both sides and be 1324 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,300 able to offer to people what they what's the best solution 1325 01:12:44,300 --> 01:12:47,100 for them? Cool great. 1326 01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:50,900 That sounds fantastic. Thanks so much for coming on. 1327 01:12:50,900 --> 01:12:53,100 Flavia. Yeah, thanks for having me. 1328 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:55,300 Yeah. And to listen to thanks so much 1329 01:12:55,300 --> 01:12:57,400 for listening, it's always a pleasure. 1330 01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:01,300 And so we put out new episodes every Monday and you can 1331 01:13:01,300 --> 01:13:05,500 subscribe to have episodes on iOS iTunes SoundCloud or of 1332 01:13:05,500 --> 01:13:07,400 course, watch the videos in YouTube. 1333 01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:10,800 Now if you're a loyal fan and if you listening, you know what's 1334 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,200 coming now which is that we are doing this this campaign where 1335 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:19,200 essentially if you leave us an iTunes review, some feedback on 1336 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:23,400 the Show then we are sending you a T-shirt and we're almost out 1337 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,700 but we'll get new ones done. So just email us at show it 1338 01:13:26,700 --> 01:13:28,600 absent a big point.com if you do that. 1339 01:13:28,900 --> 01:13:31,600 So thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.