But maybe like, I mean, I'm not saying you have to do this, but
maybe like if you're it could be a good experiment to go on a
date without makeup at some point.
I. Should Yeah, I mean, I, I have
been on dates like that are not first dates.
Yeah. That has no makeup.
Yeah. And I usually find, OK, this is,
this is definitely more complicated than just having
beauty standards. But I feel like men like that I
go on dates with they don't care that much about makeup anyway.
It's more about like how I wanna feel about myself.
Yeah 'cause a lot of the times they can't even tell that you're
wearing like a new like shade of eyeshadow or lipstick.
Like, if they can't tell that you're wearing like, like,
sometimes I have been on dates with, like, man, that I've been
seeing, like, before when I was wearing makeup.
And then I was like, I'm like, oh, today I'm not wearing
makeup. Or do you just see any
difference? And they're like, I don't see
any difference. So I feel like it's a lot of
times, like, in my head that I have to wear makeup.
Yeah. Have you been on dates with no
makeup? Yeah, most, most.
Oh. Really.
Oh my God. Well, I although we're talking
about how this is killing women, I feel very honored that you're
wearing makeup to my podcast. Yeah, yeah, I wanna help those
clips go viral. And in fact, if you're watching
this and you think I've done a bad job with the makeup, please
let us know. Call me an ugly.
Well, well, Or if you think we're doing a good job, also
leave a comment. Yeah, tell us how pretty we are.
Yeah, yeah. We need both side.
Rebecca, what's keeping you up tonight, beauty?
Standards are killing women. Oh.
My God. But there's so many beauty
standards. All of the beauty standards are
killing women. I think if you count emotionally
too. Emotional.
I think they're emotionally killing us, and some of them are
physically killing us. I.
I agree. I agree.
Yeah. Wait, OK.
I feel like every time we talk about beauty standards, it's
always like a bad thing. But what if we love all beauty?
Is that a beauty standard or that's not a beauty standard?
OK, traditional American or Western beauty standards, we'll
say. OK, Yeah, got it.
You have any experience suffering from beauty standard
or your friends or what makes you wanna what?
What makes you? Yeah.
What's the motivation behind this?
I feel like not enough people talk about how like literally
like, OK, it's like you could break it down by like all of the
different things, like makeup, like a lot of like cosmetics
have heavy metals in them and stuff like they're like
cosmetics are not regulated by the FDA at all.
I did not know that. OK, OK.
You're a whistleblower. I've been having whistleblowers
on my podcast recently. It's good.
I mean, this has been out there for years, just nobody talks.
Like I think people just systemically don't care about
women. Yeah.
What's wait? Could you describe 'cause I, OK,
I'm actually from China, so I grew up in China.
I came here in 2022 so. What is the FDA?
No, I know. Sorry, I'll let you finish.
You're like, what's your ideal? What's describe Western American
like contemporary beauty standard to me?
I mean, very like Aryan looking, I think.
Yeah, like the German ideal of like, I think, I think like, you
know, lighter hair, smaller features, very like Waspy,
looking like white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
Yeah, yeah. And like, I feel like that's
also like very, I don't know, very universal.
I feel like where I'm from, people also wanna, even if
they're not white, they wanna look like all the plastic
surgeries are made for people to look more like mixed or like,
yeah, it's like a compliment. If if in China if you say
someone looks mixed. Yeah.
By saying like having like bigger eyes, like higher nose
bridge and like fairer skin and things like that.
Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, right.
Like these are global. I mean, it's not just limited to
American culture like in Bangladesh.
Also people like it's very common to use like skin
lightening creams. Yeah, still, yeah, yeah.
But I, I, I don't know, Skin lightening cream is such such a
pseudoscience to me. It's so yeah, there.
But there's also, on the other side, there's also skin
darkening, like tanning. But I feel like there's just so
many different kinds of like beauty standards that people
work toward. Well, I think The thing is like,
no matter what you look like, societies like on average want
women to just feel bad about themselves and to spend all
their time, money and energy trying to look a way that they
don't naturally look. I agree.
What do we, what do we, how do we, what do we, what should we
do about it? I feel like I suffer from it,
from it too. But sometimes I feel like I
struggle with like, what I should be like, what I think I
should be doing and what I think would serve me good.
In like short terms, yeah. I don't know, it's a hard
question because like, pretty privilege is real.
And yeah, like, I'm not, I'm not judging any woman who feels like
they have to wear makeup or straighten their hair or do
anything to like advance at work or to get like, I don't know.
I mean I think this also ties into it's so standardized that
men aren't willing to date women in their like general area of
looks. Like I feel like men, like
straight men on average, aren't willing to date women that like,
look about as pretty as they are handsome.
Wait, wait, wait. Say that again.
I think men only want to date up in terms of appearance.
Oh yeah, interesting. Like, I feel like I think about
it, but I never hear someone say it.
Yeah, I feel like that's true. Like women are usually the ones
that are more attractive in relationship.
I mean, heterosexual relationships.
And I feel like in general, like there's more attractive women in
society than attractive men. I feel like like conventionally.
I, I think it's because women are shamed If like women are not
women don't wake up looking like, you know, like the like,
you know, women are putting on like they're getting plastic
surgery, probably at higher rates than men.
They're putting on makeup every day to like make their face look
more like the standard. I don't know.
Whereas like men get to just wake up, take a shower.
Yeah, I feel like when I go on 1st dates and I think about how
much effort I have to put into it and they can just like shower
and like, I don't know, do a put a little bit of hair gel in
their hair. That's, that's like maximum.
That's when you're lucky. Have you ever gone on a date
with no makeup? No.
Never. I don't know.
I feel like, yeah, I don't know. Oh my God, I've been on so many
days since like, since like, I don't know, college and never.
Yeah, I guess I never really never never no makeup, but I
have been trying to like not wear as much makeup on at least
on 1st dates 'cause I feel like, like I feel like it's also a
sign. Like I don't want to put so much
effort into myself when I don't know if this is going to be a
good out outcome. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, but I definitely have been in situations, situations where
I, I feel like I'm the most dressed.
Yeah. Like like the other day when
Ryan was here, she was talking about like comedy clubs.
Yeah, I always feel like I'm the most dressed.
What do you think? Do you feel, do you like,
resonate with that 'cause you're, you're also a comic?
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm conflicted about how much you women, how
much it makes sense for women to dress up for comedy shows.
It's sort of like, on the one hand, like there's a thing of
like, like audiences find audiences in general find the
underdog funnier. And so there is something about
being like less conventionally attractive that makes them more
willing to laugh with you and at you.
But it's also like, I think there is something very real
about pretty privilege and that people wanna book and talk to
people they find attractive. So I, I don't know, I'm like
trying to weigh the balance. It honestly depends to how good
of a day I'm having. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
I feel like, I don't know 'cause OK, I, I don't know how this
experience can relate to what you just said, but I feel like
it's something that it's worth bringing up because I feel like
it's very different from a lot of people.
So I, so I grew up, grew up in China and before like I guess
18, it's like forbidden for women, I guess students to look
good. Like it's like you will get
punished in high school and middle school if you wear like a
lipstick, like no, like nails. You can't have a manicure and
your hair have to be at A at a certain length and obviously no
dyeing hair and everything. But I think the way the fact
that you're framing all of that as looking good is sort of
problematic, you know, yeah, 'cause like, I don't think we
should have to put on makeup to consider ourselves, like,
looking good. You know, yeah, I agree.
I mean, like, it's it because I feel like I said it, I guess not
necessarily looking good. It's more like they are not
allowing like sexualization. Maybe.
I think that's the, that's the point.
But that's also, I don't know, 'cause I, I, I have a hard time
finding a balance between that. Because if you're like what I
experienced in high school, it's like complete suppressing the,
it's like almost molding everybody into the same.
I feel like that's dehumanizing because it's not just about not
having you look good or sexually appealing.
It's also about like controlling.
So if you like, like either having a like the two extremes,
that one extreme is like suppressing everything and the
other extreme is like so, so much pressure that you have to
dress up or like do make up and everything all the time.
So if you like I, I feel like I've experienced, I guess both,
maybe not like very, very much extreme, but I feel like I have
a hard time like deciding between which side I wanna lean
towards. When you were in high school and
middle school, did you feel like, upset about that?
Like did you want to wear makeup and nail Polish to school?
I feel like I I felt like I, I felt fine.
I didn't want to like I, I feel like I never like I'm on my
friends. I'm the one that's like more
like I don't really care about how I look, But maybe I'm now
thinking that maybe it's because I don't I think I have I'm also
OK. I guess it's also because I
think I'm, it's almost a like it's a shame to look good
because then it probably be have a underlying meaning that you're
not good at what you're studying.
Like if I'm top of the class, I'm, I feel better about myself
than if I'm looking good. And yeah, like in high schools,
people would be like or like teachers.
I remember they were they would place more favoritism on like
top of the class students then best looking student and and
even like shaming the best looking still like you spend so
much time on doing makeup. You should have like do your
homework like this person, which who is top of the class.
But I feel like both that's like you're like putting people into
like like one or the other. It's not like you can't have
both. Yeah.
So I felt like I was. I felt I wanted to do my nails
sometimes, but I felt frustrated that I couldn't do that.
Yeah, they both seem harmful in different ways, like you were
saying. Yeah, yeah, I, I feel like I,
when I was in middle school, I like, I never thought about
looks until middle school, 'cause I feel like 'cause that I
remember earlier, it's like a guy that's like he had a crush
on me and we're, we're really good friends and he has also a
bunch of good friends, but are kind of the bro Y friends.
And they learned that he has a crush on me and asked me to be
his girlfriend. And then his friends were like,
oh, this is what you like. Like they're like trying to
shame me. So.
And like I remember walking down the hall and this this guy's
friends were like, Oh my God, she's so ugly and like talking
to each other as if I'm not like listening.
So I feel like after that I'm like Oh my God like I thought
I'm top of the world by being top of the class and but now I'm
being shamed for how I look. So I feel like that's when I
started feeling more conscious about myself and leaning more
towards the so-called beauty standard or what's pretty
commissionally, yeah. Right.
It's like in today's, well, at least in America, I feel like
women have to be both like you have to be pretty and also top
of your career, top of like whatever.
I don't know. Yeah, it's AI don't like it's a
weird thing, but I mean, that sucks that those guys shamed
you. And I feel like every every
woman has an experience like that, or many.
Yeah, yeah, I feel like growing up there, there's more, but it
just when when like it's like a younger kid or a teenager, it
feels more like like the effect feels stronger than now.
Like I feel like right now on the Internet, everybody's
calling me ugly, but it's fine. I don't care anymore.
Yeah. Have you like what's your how do
you feel like it like looks like affect or like beauty center
have affected you and your career and your life?
Yeah, I mean, I'm on the autism spectrum, so I'm not saying that
social standards don't affect me, but I don't notice them or
it takes like a lot for me to notice them.
So I kind of like, you know, I guess like I might have like
been more blase about it like in middle school and high school,
like I guess like I was aware that other children were judging
me for like how I dressed and how I styled myself.
But I was like, whatever, it kind of like rolled up and like,
I don't know, I guess like more to be honest, like I guess more
since I started trying to get into like performing in like
stand up and like trying to make that turn that into a
profession, I've been more way more conscious about it and like
way more trying to make an effort.
Oh really? Why did you want to get into
stand up in the first place? One of like, the more petty
reasons. OK, I, I've always liked writing
humorous things and, you know, short stories and stuff.
And I got a few pieces published and, yeah.
And it was like, so many hours of work, like writing, revising,
getting it submitted to places. And then, like, I don't know,
people were like, oh, congratulations.
And then, like, it was like, over.
And I was like, that was not satisfying.
And I had like, started doing open mics at the same time.
And it's like, wow, every time you go on stage you get an
immediate reaction, good or bad. Yeah.
And it was just like, that's so much more gratifying.
No, even if, but that's also I feel like I agree, but and also
congratulations on the publications and.
Everything. Thank you.
Yeah, but I don't know if you're going to open my even if the
response is immediate, it's like you said, it's good or bad, and
I feel like it's not always good.
It's sort of like a gambling. Thing and I feel you feel like
that's better than like just writing and publishing.
I think it's just like gambling is addictive because of the
highs and the lows. Yeah, you're right.
Whereas like writing is just sort of a study.
Like like oh this is fine. Yeah, I yeah.
It's like uncertainty keeps you going instead of like always
good or always bad. Yeah.
Do you know how this is a anecdote that's unrelated, but I
do. Do you know how I found you?
So I was performing at, I think Gotham, but I'm not sure.
And after the show, I talked to someone.
I'm not, I don't remember who it is, but so after my my set, the
person's like, oh, you're very funny.
You give this innocent look or like like a a girl next door or
like this kind of look. And then you tell like very out
there jokes and like it reminds me of Rebecca.
And I'm like, oh, and then I looked you up and I saw your
jokes and I thought you were really funny, so I followed you.
So that's, that's how I yeah. So I I'm very honored.
It's like a dream come true for me that you followed me back and
came to my. Podcast No.
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, of course.
Wait, how did you find me? You followed me back.
I I saw your clip with Rania. Oh yeah.
I mean, I follow back anyone who's a comedian, but I had I
had seen your clip with Rania. Oh nice.
What did you think about my the the with Rania?
So relatable. I know.
I feel like I wish we should talk more about that, but I feel
like a lot of the relatable conversation I had with Rania
was more about. Like, it's, it's because we're
both comedians, but this obviously like applies to like
around the world, like all aspects of life.
Yeah. Do do you like, feel like,
'cause we talked about with Rania, we talked about how like,
being funny is not like a, it does not give you a like up in
dating and straight dating. Do you feel that?
100%. Yeah, how?
How do you feel? Like have you like.
Yeah, how? Why?
I think there's a thing like, it's hard to be attracted.
OK, I find it. I'm not gonna speak for all
women, but I find it very hard to be attracted to a man who's
less funny than me. Like even if I'm I've had men
who are willing to date me who weren't funny.
Well, OK. My personal least favorite is
men who try to be funny and fail at it.
Yeah. Like that's worse to me than
just kind of not doing any jokes at all.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like right after I say
that I'm a comedian sometimes and and right after that I get a
corny like pun like pun joke that they saw online somewhere.
I feel like that happens to me a lot.
Yeah, or like sending memes. Oh yeah, or like, oh, I have
this really fun story. You should put it into a joke
and you should thank me because I provided you with the
incident. But most of the time it's a not
so funny incident. Do.
You ever get men trying to offer you tags that are really
sexually sexually inappropriate? I can't think of anything right
now like tax. Like what do you mean by tax?
It's like like an extra line to add to your joke or.
Something I feel like definitely like, like I I just have a
feeling that this happened, but I can't think of anything
specifically right now. You blocked it out.
I like, I have selective memory, Yeah.
What about you? Yeah, not all men, right?
Like sometimes like men do legitimately offer good.
Yes. Right.
But yeah, like, I hate it when men will hear me do a joke and
they'll be like, oh, here would be a good way to take it.
And then they just say something that's like way more sexually
out there than like what I had said.
Yeah, and I feel like, but I feel like, OK, I don't know
about you, but I feel like something that like that happens
to me. I feel like I'm already sexually
out there and you're you want me to be more out there.
That's also that that also makes me feel like like this also was
talked about before on my other episode.
It was like like there's have you been called out saying that
you your material's too edgy or too out there too sexual?
Have you ever? Yeah, totally.
Yeah, but I feel like, yeah, I like and I feel like, yeah, men
don't get called out on that. No.
Yeah. And they talk about, like, sex
and like, sexual experience, too.
Yeah. And I was thinking like, like, I
remember the first time after the first time I did comedy.
Like I posted that clip. I thought it was so funny and
there was a good guy that I barely know.
Then he, like replied to me and he said, oh, you're you're so
funny, but you shouldn't limit yourself to sex strokes.
Like, well, first of all, it wasn't all just sex jokes.
You only saw the sex jokes because you have selected
selective attention. Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of a lot of other funny bits that are not about
sex. Yeah, my, like, I had an
experience where in the same week I posted a sex joke, like a
clip, like these are like 3060 second clips, right?
So I posted one that was like a very raunchy joke and a bunch of
men came on and were like, oh, women can only be funny when
they're talking about sex. And then a few days later I
posted a joke about insects and people were like, finally a
woman like who can be funny without talking about sex.
And it's like, can you only like could you like these are like
32nd representations of my stand up like show.
Yeah. And like, it sounds like you
can't, you can't win either way. Yeah.
And Speaking of posting, I feel like I've, since I've been
posting my podcasts a lot, I get so much more like, like
comments. And it's interesting to see
which ones that get viral, like the ones that has the most, like
better or more traffic is the ones that are sexual.
Like I have so many other videos that are not about sexual
experiences and they don't get attention, so maybe that says
something about the algorithm or the people who are interacting
with it. I think it's men get see a woman
talking about sex and they get angry and they come on and make
angry comments and then when OK. I think the sweet spot for
social media is if you post a clip that's genuinely funny or
genuinely engaging, but it makes like a certain percentage of
people that see it angry. So they come on and share it or
comment on it because they're angry.
But it boosts the views and then it makes more people see it who
will like it because it was actually funny.
Yes, yes, I agree. And sometimes I have like hate
comments and there will be people who are like later on,
they will like come to the comment section and like speak
against them. So I feel like that's like good
engagement too. Yeah.
But yeah, I like under my a lot of my podcasts, if you if you
something people always say is raise the price for a podcast
equipment. And I'm like, well, it's already
very expensive and if you don't think it's expensive enough, you
should come buy a set of podcast equipment and make a better
podcast instead of coming to my podcast.
But. That's crazy there's so many.
Like I feel like 95% of if you studied it, I bet 95% of
podcasts are just like two or three white dudes talking about
absolutely nothing. Exactly.
Oh my God. And.
They're coming onto your podcast.
And you're planning like I know I would like so proud of my
podcast. I feel like it's yeah.
And another thing people say under I don't know, I don't
know, like I've been doing my podcast for like 4 months and
most of the comments are hate comments.
So I don't know what's going on. I I don't know if it's a good
thing or a bad thing. I think YouTube is just hate
filled. Yeah.
I think that's part of it. It's all the.
Platform, it's like TikTok, Instagram, but I've seen it as a
positive thing as like, I mean, I feel like for social media,
it's easier to focus on the hate comments, but there's also like
a lot more people who liked but didn't comment, yeah.
Yeah, you can't, like internalize the hate comments
'cause I I try to think of it like like, OK, when I see a hate
comment, I try to be like, oh, thank you, you've just helped my
content grow. OK.
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.
Yeah. Whatever engagement, it's still
engagement. Do any of like you don't have to
share, but it is to have there been any particular comments
that haunted you? Oh.
My God, I feel like when what haunts me is usually the
comments from women. I Oh yeah, I feel like I, I feel
hurt that you're not on my side. I don't, I can't think of
anything in particular right now, but there definitely has
been. It's like like, like something
about like, oh, don't let these women represent us.
Like they're not what women should be like, something like
that. I hate that.
I know. It's like, why are you so?
Yeah. Yeah, I had a clip go viral that
it was like a it was a sketch, but it was like presented in a
way that it wasn't like we didn't like say like this is a
sketch. You had to have some sense of
humor. But it was like me and another
woman basically saying like, oh, you have to ask.
Like if you have to ask a woman to hold your hand, the asking is
non consensual basically. And like, you know, like that's
like not good. It was, I mean it was, it was
like a very like a parody of like woke like boundary like
conversation. But like, there was like so many
women that came on in the comments and were like, didn't
get it and thought that we were being serious.
Oh, I see, I see. Yeah, the misunderstanding that
gets me all the time. I feel like, yeah, OK, I have
something that I want to ask your opinion on 'cause we were
talking about beauty standards. So look like I have AI have a
presence on Rednode, which is like a Chinese platform, a
social media platform, just like Instagram.
But most of the users are like, like women who are more well
educated and you know, like, you know, like a higher, like middle
to higher upper class women. And you know, there's like
people are very like, I guess progressive on there.
And I think it's a good thing. But there's a lot of people who
are making like feminist content and which which is great to see
on like a Chinese platform because I mean, feminism is
still like developing slowly in China.
It's not like at the stage where it is at in like American or a
Western world right now. So it's good to see those
influencers making like maybe they'll make like a skit about
like how women are treated poorly in the similar situations
as like if a if a man would be like just an example.
And these influencers, when they get more traffic, when they get
more popularity, there will be so many people in comments.
We're also women saying that you shouldn't be wearing makeup,
doing this content. I'm, I'm following you because
you are wearing makeup. And I don't know that that bugs
me 'cause I feel like you shouldn't.
I don't know. How do you feel about that?
I think that we shouldn't punish individuals for their choices.
Like if you're punishing an individual woman for choosing
how she's adapting to a sexist society, then that's on you for
judging her. Like I, you know, until we reach
a point where we can accept like, I mean, I, I'm wearing
makeup right now, even though I'm aware that it has like
toxins that are probably killing me slowly.
You know, like, I think it's like very real to want to do
whatever you can to adapt in society, even if you are aware
that you shouldn't have to be doing it.
Yeah, I feel like it's more it's good.
It's OK to like do makeup if you have the with intention, like
you know what this is doing. You're you know what?
Yeah, like you said, I'm also wearing makeup right now.
I know I didn't like always putting on makeup, but this is
what I should be, should be doing if I want to be where I'm
at in in some like, subtle ways, yeah.
But maybe like, I mean, I'm not saying you have to do this, but
maybe like if you're it could be a good experiment to go on a
date without makeup at some point.
I. Should Yeah, I mean, I, I have
been on dates like that are not first dates.
Yeah, that has no makeup. Yeah.
And I usually find, OK, this is, this is definitely more
complicated than just having beauty centers.
But I feel like men like that I go on dates with they don't care
that much about makeup anyway. It's more about like how I wanna
feel about myself. Yeah, 'cause a lot of the times
they can't even tell that you're wearing like a new, like, shade
of eyeshadow or lipstick. Like they can't tell that you're
wearing like, like, sometimes I have been on dates with like,
men that I've been seeing, like before when I was wearing
makeup. And then I would like, I'm like,
oh, today I'm not wearing makeup.
Or do you just see any difference?
And they're like, I don't see any difference.
So I feel like it's a lot of times, like in my head that I
have to wear makeup. Yeah.
Have you been on dates with no makeup?
Yeah, most, most. Oh really?
Oh my God. Well, I although we're talking
about how this is killing women, I feel very honored that you're
wearing makeup to my podcast. Yeah, yeah, I want to help those
clips go viral. And in fact, if you're watching
this and you think I've done a bad job with the makeup, please
let us know. Call me an ugly.
Well, well, Or if you think we're doing a good job, also
leave a comment. Yeah, tell us how pretty we are.
Yeah, we need both side of the voice.
When you don't have make up on like and you're like on a first
date or something like what what scares you about that?
Like do you feel like you're the way that your face looks
naturally isn't or like I don't know, is it something about
wanting to make like the most good impression that you can?
That's a good point. This also making me thinking a
lot. I feel like I would, I, I feel
like I look better with a little bit of makeup, but maybe there's
a very small margin. Like right after I done my
eyebrows. I feel like I'm, I'm pretty like
like I don't need to go into the depth of doing a lot of contour
and eyeshadow and eyelashes. I feel like I'm, I feel good
just with like my eyebrows done and foundation probably, but
usually I would go beyond just eyebrow and foundation and make
me have more like steps of makeup done.
And I wonder because I've also seen like videos of people
saying, Oh, you should be putting on makeup because it
makes you feel more confident and feeling good about yourself
can help you like do better at like what you're doing during
the day. So and I know I should be
feeling better about myself already or feeling confident
already without makeup, but I feel like that's a much harder
thing to do. And it's like requires a long
time of therapy and inward thinking it the easier way would
be put on putting on makeup. How do you how do you, what do
you think about that? Yeah, like like it's grappling
with your internal thing versus just taking the 10 minutes and
putting on. I don't know, it's hard.
Like I think that I have heard the argument that makeup makes
you more confident because you're like taking control of
your appearance and stuff. And I just, I feel like there's
almost no way that painting a better face over your own face
day after day make improves anyone's confidence.
You know, to like take what your, what your face like looks
like when you wake up in the morning and to like paint
basically a homogenized perfect version of it.
Like, I don't know, I mean when I do, I mean, sure, there's like
a maybe like a thing when you like look in the mirror after
like, right, doing it and you're like, oh, like, wow, this is
like what my idealized appearance looks like.
But I think there is sort of there's, I feel like there's
something kind of inherently damaging about it because it's
sort of saying like that you're not good enough unless you do
this thing. Yeah, yeah, I guess.
I feel like I know it's a quick fix to not my face, but what's
what how I should feel about myself.
But at the meantime I should also be doing the internal work
instead of just external work. It's hard, like I don't know
what the answer is. And like, we do live in a
society where people do literally treat you better when
you look nicer. Yeah, yeah.
So I don't know. But also I've also seen like,
it's not just women, it's just like, like if you have enough
power, like, like if you're, if you're the most like powerful
woman in the world, you don't have to look good.
Like maybe at that point you don't need to like that.
At that point you don't, you don't even feel like you need to
put on makeup. And I don't know if that's true
because I don't know. I mean, I've never experienced
that. I I think it's almost the
opposite. Like, I mean, I know JK Rowling
is a controversial figure, but you know, like, whatever,
whether you, I'm not saying I agree with her, but she's like
one of the most powerful women in the world probably like for I
mean, she has like just so much money.
And if you look at like the comments on what she posts,
people aren't like, OK, people are disagreeing with her, but
like a lot of people in the comments are going after her
appearance. And I think like that, like she
is like one of the most powerful woman in the world.
And people are still primarily being like, oh, you look, you,
you're like an ugly bitch, you know?
But like I feel like she wouldn't have to care about
that. I don't know whether she cares.
Yeah. You think she doesn't care?
I don't. I don't know.
I was. Thinking if I if I?
Yeah, I I think it would be so hard to not let it get to you
'cause it's so ingrained. Also that like I I feel like
it's so hard to break that societal, you know, in Oh my
God, sorry, I'm blinging on the word like conditioning, like
sorry, it's so it's so hard to break the societal conditioning
that equates your worth as a person with your appearance when
you're like socialized female, you know, so I don't know, like
I mean, I'm sure JK Rowling pretends like she doesn't care
about it, but I don't know, I mean, and like whatever, she's
that's just one example. But like, I feel like if you see
any woman in the media, like people go after their
appearance, like the white Lotus woman would like hurt the big
teeth or whatever. Do you like, you know who I'm
from like the past season? Like, she got like brutally
ridiculed and she just has like, regular teeth, you know?
Yeah, Yeah. Well, I guess it does.
It would get into. Yeah.
I mean, even if I I say like, I don't really care about the
comments, sometimes it's because I.
I choose not to look at it to not have it affect me, because
if I look at it too much, it might still affect me.
This I don't know. This might, I don't know how if
this will be related, but it's because it's a from a guy
friend. I mean, beauty standard applies
to guys too, but maybe not as much as women.
So he was saying like he someone say that he looks like a, like
one of the politicians and he's, he looked at the politician and
thought this politician doesn't look, looks does look like him,
but he doesn't look good. And he was saying, oh, if I, if
I'm the politician and I look like this and I have so much
money, I'll spend the money on plastic surgery to make myself
look better. And then he thinks, so he has
that much money and he's not getting plastic surgery.
That means that he doesn't need to.
And still like, I think he married to like a Playboy model
or something. He can still get whatever he
wants without having to look good.
So yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's like that's why
I mean by like if you have power maybe it'll affect you less but
obviously not completely 0. Yeah, I mean, I think there are
reasons to not get plastic surgery other than not having
the money and stuff or like not, I mean, like, I, I guess like
for my values, even though I'm aware that like, OK, like let's
say if I got breast implants or something, I think people on
average might treat me better, right?
Like, or I might get further in comedy theoretically or
whatever. But like to me it's just like
not worth it. Like you have to go under
anesthesia and you risk death there.
Implants have to be replaced every 10 years.
So it's like a, you know, it's not just a one time thing.
And implants also increase your risk of cancer.
Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, Yeah.
But I mean, yeah, there is like a risk.
And I feel like it's not guaranteed that if you get
whatever surgery done, you are gonna get a leg up.
It's still, yeah. Right.
And it could be botched, too. Yeah.
It's it's not an easy to like, I don't know.
I have actually done double eyelid surgery.
So what to like make my eyes look bigger.
I know it's like not very obvious because it's been a like
I've I've done it when I was 17. So I feel like I so as someone
who I guess got plastic, it's not really plastic surgery, but
got cosmetic surgery. I feel like before that I felt
very insecure and after that I felt so much not so much, but it
definitely helped my confidence and how I go.
I go about how I carry myself and like it might be a very
grand things to say, but I feel like if I didn't get the
surgery, I don't know if I'll be here right now because I might
not have the confidence to do stuff that I would want to do.
And I feel like the reason why I got like surgery, cosmetic
surgery so early in life was because like I got called out on
like when I was like in the middle school.
So I don't know how it's definitely a complicated and
there's definitely like many aspects to like the reason, the
motivation of getting plastic surgery.
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I, I get why people, but I feel like I'm more
for like personal choice and intentionality. 100% like I'm
not again, like no judgement if anybody decides to do whatever
they like, feel like they need to do or want to do to exist in
society. I think it would be good if like
all of us question these like beauty standards.
But. But at the same time, like, I
totally understand why people do.
I see what you mean. Like I feel like there's needs
to be a collective effort. There's so many different
individual choice choices, but if before we have like something
that can that's more like that involve more people or the cycle
change or policy change or anything that can shake the
beauty standard or feel like it's not fair to judge either
conforming or going against beauty standards.
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Like, yeah, we should try not to judge people, men and women and
everything in between for whatever they decide to do or
not do. Like, I don't know.
Yeah, no, I agree. I feel like that's why I'm here.
I feel like, I feel like there's more of a consensus on not
judging people here than where I'm from.
And that makes me feel that makes me feel more like in my
skin. So then I can be making choices
more freely instead of being controlled by the standard,
either going against it or for it.
Yeah, this. I, I read a book called for
we're running Out of Time, so I'm trying to wrap up called Bad
Feminist. Have you heard of that?
Yeah, by Roxanne Gay. Yeah, have you, have you seen?
Have you read it? I've read an essay from it.
Oh, nice. Yeah, I, I really like the book
because when I was in college, I OK, so this is Oh my God, this
is so funny. Now I'm like, Oh my God, I have
so much to say. Thank you for, for listening.
I'm like dumping my trauma and like my, my life story to you.
So I, so I started the podcast because when I was in China, I
was doing content creation and how I started it was back then I
feel like podcast wasn't a thing.
So I started with me and three of my friends gathering together
in my dorm talking about like the first episode was talking
about like beauty standards, like body image.
And that went super viral. Like so many women can relate to
it. And then we did more episodes,
but then they graduated. So I, I stopped doing that.
So, but that I'm saying like that's how I got started on
doing content. So I made it like a school
project so I can get money from school basically.
And I was talking about like a presenting my project and my
teacher, my professor who is listening to it, they were a
gender study professor. I think they like specialized in
gender studies and women studies and like, yeah, more like
comparative literature and stuff.
And he's the one, sorry, they are the one 'cause I, they're
Chinese, so there's no pronouns. Yeah, yeah.
And they recommended the, the book Bad Feminist because I, one
of the videos I did was me, I was like crying.
I'm like, how can I tell people to not be anxious about their
body image? But I am still anxious about my
body image. And he's like, you should read
this book. Yeah.
And I read it. I'm like, like, it's basically,
it's a wait. You should be.
You should be doing more, more of the talking.
I feel like I'm completely. No, I'm, I'm, I, I think it's,
it's interesting to hearing about like the beauty standards
of a different culture. Yeah, and the book was basically
saying it's like it's OK to be a bad feminist.
Like even if you don't know all all the feminist theories, even
if you can, you want to like look conform to a beauty
standard in in a certain way or you, you sing along to
misogynist rap, you can still be a feminist.
It's better than being a bad feminist is better than not
being a feminist at all. Right.
Which is also interesting because then when Roxanne Gay
got the gastric bypass surgery or whatever it's called, like
she basically got her stomach, stomach stapled, I think, or
like, I forgot the name of Barry.
Bariatric surgery, Yeah. I'm not sure.
But she had like a, you know, like one of those surgeries that
helps you lose weight. And like, so many people in
feminist circles came on and judged her for it 'cause they
were like, I mean, she's, she was like very severely
overweight. And it's like, I think it's
crazy to judge her for making a personal choice to like
whatever, Like that's between her and her doctor.
Yeah, yeah. It doesn't stop her from like,
feminist literature, right? Doesn't make it like, doesn't
make her voice less. What's the word doesn't doesn't
make her less of a feminist. Right, right.
You should you could say that you think she shouldn't like
that no one should feel like they have to get bariatric
surgery and that people should be able to exist in their bodies
like and feel comfortable. But like, to judge her for
making that decision is like, I think that's anti feminist to,
to judge individual people for like, you know, doing 'cause
also like she might not have chosen to do it for cosmetic
reasons. She might have like felt like
she wanted to do it for health reasons.
That's literally like, you know, that's her medical decision.
But I don't know. Yeah.
So before I guess we can wrap up, Yeah, yeah.
No, no, I'm I'm the one that's I kept talking.
Is there anything like you would like to add or on a note?
OK, last like thing. I think that it goes the other
way as well, where like I think I've heard men, I've heard
multiple men comment that they're jealous that women get
to wear foundation and get to wear makeup because they're
insecure about how their complexion looks.
They're insecure that they're like not, you know, like maybe
they have like, oh, like they wanna have like more prominent
lips or something. And I'm like, I, I think
similarly to how women shouldn't feel like they have to wear
makeup, men shouldn't feel like they cannot wear makeup.
Oh yeah, you're right. But is men wearing makeup like
also like promotes like beauty standards?
It does, but I don't know. I mean, like, we live in this
world we live in. I don't know.
I think there's a difference between occasionally wanting to
feel pretty or like wanting to maybe you have a blemish that
you wanna cover up, versus like, feeling like, so insecure that
you cannot leave the house or let anybody at all see you
without putting on like, a heavy coat of makeup or like, you
know, really like dyeing your hair, doing like, whatever.
Like, I don't know, I think there's a world where you could
use makeup without letting it destroy your confidence.
Yeah, yeah, there should be. Yeah.
I, I, I feel like I will. I'm trying to get there.
I feel like, I mean it, it is a collective effort, but I feel
like individually there's like smallest things we can do to
like, like this reminds me of the trend.
What's this? What's something small that's
feminist that you do everyday? Something like that, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I had like 1.
Like I had, I occasionally shaved my legs.
I often don't. But like I had a man touched my
leg hair and he was like, wow, I've never seen or felt touched
leg hair on a woman before. And I'm like, really?
You're 37? And I was like, you know what?
That makes me not want to shave my legs as like a feminist
choice. I think we should OK if women
don't feel comfortable doing it. Do whatever makes you feel
comfortable. But I think if you can bring it
to yourself to walk out occasionally without makeup,
without shaving your body hair, I think that just normalizes
what bodies look like. Yes, yes, normalize it, yes,
Yeah, well, thank you so much. I, I feel very like stimulated
in our conversation and thank you for like challenging or
bringing a perspective on this topic because I feel like I was
very much into this topic like women and the double standard of
society. But I felt like when I came to
America, I stopped thinking about it because I feel like it
doesn't, it didn't bother me as much because I I feel like like
immigration and like racial topics bothered me more when I
came here. So I kind of left that the
gender issue in the back of my head.
So thank you for bringing, bringing it up in my like
digging it out out of my brain. And I definitely, yeah, enjoyed
the conversation. Thank you.
Thanks for having me, yeah.