1 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:14,480 Hey, Lynn. Hey Asami, how's it going? 2 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,440 It's going going pretty well. That's good. 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:26,800 Today we are doing more sciency things of the ego de science. 4 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,360 Tonight, though, that we do. Ordinarily computationally heavy 5 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,440 sciency things. Yeah, someone without the 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,160 blackboard. No, not that kind. 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,240 But the other day I shared an interesting paper with you. 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,640 Or I I guess I I did the bad thing of just receiving a link 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,400 from a friend and then immediately sending forward. 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,760 Share. Without actually reading the 11 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,640 thing because I just glanced at the title and be like that will 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:02,680 be a good podcast episode and but you you faithfully read it. 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Yeah, and for for just tossing ideas. 14 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,000 Yeah, for tossing ideas, it's totally fine, right? 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,320 You just gotta share this paper. This paper came in a way through 16 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:17,840 my friend just casually sharing 'cause, you know, that's what we 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:26,360 do, where this talked about academic mentorship and that is 18 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,080 often the topic of our interests as well. 19 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,880 So here goes nothing. Here we go. 20 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:40,200 So it's a paper from Nature Human Behaviour with an article 21 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:45,040 titled Academic Mentees Thrive in Big Groups but Survive in 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:52,280 small groups that was published in April 7th, 2024. 23 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,880 So not terribly long ago, but not the freshest crop of the 24 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,760 news, but I think it still is interesting like any attempt to 25 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,120 kind of understand, you know, academic mentorship in like a 26 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,880 more quantitative. I think the interesting bit on 27 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,480 this now that you mentioned the date is just a sign of perhaps 28 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:20,200 how long this review process was because this was received April 29 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:27,080 2024 and accepted January 2025. So this was like more than what 30 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,240 is that seven months, 8 months, right, like of of rotating? 31 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,400 Yeah, it was. A It was a lengthy review. 32 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,480 Process, I think we're going to see that as we talk about it, 33 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,320 right. There is a lot of analysis that 34 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,920 these researchers did of a very large amount of publication data 35 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:48,040 essentially and sort of connections with enter mentee 36 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,200 linking. Yeah, yeah. 37 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:58,320 So, but the premise of this article, to the best of my 38 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:04,040 ability, is that they sort of start the starting point for 39 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,680 them. Is that OK? 40 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:11,800 There's been a bunch of studies that looked at survival rate of 41 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,720 students as they go on and launch the researcher career. 42 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,440 And they've looked at sort of where did they start from? 43 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,720 What kind of university the undergrad they went to, where 44 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,560 did they end up, how many publications in this many years? 45 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,000 There are many sort of like different aspects of it that 46 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,480 they tracked. You know, they some of them 47 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:37,080 looked at through the lens of minority representation, some of 48 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,680 them looked at through the lens of the age and but there's been 49 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,400 very few that they looked at the actual dropout rate. 50 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,560 Of. The study of this problem 51 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,080 because all of these previous studies tend to focus on the 52 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,160 survival rate, right? Like who made it basically 53 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:02,080 whatever survival meant in with their respective studies, but 54 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,440 kind of like turned a blind eye to The Who dropped out story. 55 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,280 And that's what they're trying to sort of understand better by 56 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,079 using the group size, the lab group size as one of the metrics 57 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,600 to sort of take a slice set. And that was interesting, but I 58 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:29,200 think already we were like sort of starting to discuss like what 59 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,520 does big group mean? Right. 60 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Yeah. And also the very the lines that 61 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,960 appear in their abstract where they talk about we just casually 62 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:46,400 kind of seem to assume that big groups tend to indicate success 63 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:53,400 of the Pi and that also seemed to be questionable for us in our 64 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,400 livid. Yeah, I responded pretty 65 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,800 aggressively and I think it was a little unfair for me to do 66 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,720 this to the poor authors right away because they do literally 67 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,680 in the next sentence of their abstract say however, right 68 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,080 there is a, there is a perception they are mentioning 69 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,960 right that you know. So I was not aware also of this 70 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:25,520 like sort of a perception like did this this notion that big 71 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,760 groups tend to do well? Like, I didn't know that was a 72 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,360 thing. I honestly was not under that 73 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,200 impression either. Yeah, I think it caught both of 74 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,040 us off guard, hence the response. 75 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:44,040 Because these I think what I understood when I would hear 76 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:49,800 like large group is that that maybe mentor or the Pi of the 77 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,040 group had obviously gotten a sort of long way along with 78 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,920 funding and you know, developing of their general research. 79 00:05:58,440 --> 00:05:59,520 Kind. Of collection. 80 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,920 Yeah, yeah, 'cause they need to this, this principal 81 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,240 investigator, we keep throwing the words PIPI, but that's 82 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:09,400 that's all. I mean like the main. 83 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,120 Yes. Sorry person who is doing the 84 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,360 investigation like. I blame this paper. 85 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,880 I blame this paper for using initialisms all over the place. 86 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,600 They've got so many variables and so many, all of which I 87 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,520 think they've they've done a nice job technically structuring 88 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,240 and building upon, but it is hard to keep track so. 89 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,440 Hard to keep track, but anyway, so this Pi principal 90 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,640 investigator, like they, they you know, if they are able to 91 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,720 have a big group, that means they have enough money to hire 92 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,160 this many people and that that money doesn't come out of 93 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,840 nowhere. They need to come from funding. 94 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:50,800 If you're doing research using public money or or even private 95 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,840 money too. And, and yeah, and these 96 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:00,240 students, again, really varies depending on the state or the 97 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,600 country that they're in, but they're not necessarily cheap 98 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,640 labor. Very few money, like very little 99 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,760 percentage of the money actually goes to the student. 100 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,960 But the cost of hiring a grad student is not exactly cheap. 101 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Right. For most. 102 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,040 P is yeah, it's, it's a lot, right? 103 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,800 It doesn't because the university might also assist in 104 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,920 the payment of PhD students. And there's this weird like. 105 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,040 Right, it's not, it's not exactly 1 to one ratio of 106 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,960 looking at. Things, but it it can be. 107 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,080 A lot we can say that. Yeah. 108 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,200 And usually there's a, you know, the association is if you have 109 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,760 lots of money and then you can have a big group, but the money 110 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,280 association with whether or not you are like, you know, 111 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,400 successful, say in a field, I think there's some, you know, 112 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,200 argumentation to be to be. Happy there. 113 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,240 There's some arguments to be had, but let's just assume for 114 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:56,400 the sake of this paper, you know that is maybe the norm or at 115 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,440 least like the mode in in the in the research industry where lots 116 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,960 of money means relatively successful and and therefore 117 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,000 bigger group. Right. 118 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:08,200 Yes. Yep. 119 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,320 Yep, Yep. So, but they, what they really 120 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,200 wanted to do, the authors was to sort of use that metric to 121 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:22,000 understand the quality of mentor mentee relationship and sort of 122 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,080 track out who are going to drop out. 123 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,480 And, and if there's any trend in the group size and the influence 124 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,840 of that on individual students who do choose to leave academia 125 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,159 for one reason or the other. Yeah. 126 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,880 I think they sort of unpacked some of that within their 127 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,960 discussion around this. Well, mainly, as you said, 128 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:50,600 right, separating the usual overall existence of those in 129 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,480 academia and the trends of their quote, UN quote success, however 130 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,040 measured they are with where did they come from kind of idea. 131 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,920 Where is their sort of origin point in smaller big group 132 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,360 dynamics? And how is that affected their 133 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,760 continued presence as like a researcher publishing papers or 134 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,480 even, you know, what their research groupings and stuff 135 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:19,920 looks like in in the future? So yeah, yeah, interesting, if 136 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,920 somewhat overwhelming. Yeah, exactly. 137 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,360 The fundamental questions that they're going for is what are 138 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:30,240 the advantages and disadvantage of working with big group 139 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,560 successful writers in this case? Should we define, as you were 140 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:37,160 going to say I think the big small group piece? 141 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,200 So they did. This is on one of the middle 142 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,120 pages here nine O 4. We classified small groups and 143 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,800 big groups. As this is quoted mentees are in 144 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,320 the top 25% and so this is them ranking. 145 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,360 So all of the mentees within some sort of given year and 146 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,040 ranked as group size categorization. 147 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,720 So basically this can vary year to year, right? 148 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,200 And so they were able to figure out the rough probably 149 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,480 approximate with some error group sizings and they would 150 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,280 say, all right, every one of the mentees that are in the top 25% 151 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,480 of group sizing in that year is big and those that are in the 152 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:27,120 lower 25% are small. And they did not do anything 153 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,080 with the middle ones, right. They just said we're going to 154 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,680 pick those. They just compared to two 155 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:33,320 extremes. Yes, big and small. 156 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:33,880 Groups. Yep. 157 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,000 So which you know, you would assume that maybe the middle 158 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,720 group is literally just middle. On a lot of these charts, it 159 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,160 would be fascinating if the result turned out to be totally 160 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,080 different or something, but. Yeah. 161 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,080 Like what if we? What if there was like a sweet 162 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,480 spot, you know? Yeah. 163 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:50,920 Yeah, maybe there was a sweet spot. 164 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,280 Like a maximal success rate and survival. 165 00:10:54,280 --> 00:11:00,320 Like in there they're just like middle sized groups have a 90% 166 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,360 survival rate or something crazy, right? 167 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,160 The secret is to have 11 people in the team, guys. 168 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,080 Yeah, These is not what they're saying. 169 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,600 There are definitely papers out there like that though, and I've 170 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,680 had like conversations in the space of I don't know if it's 171 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,360 within like, you know, human behavior type journals. 172 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,720 It might be, but I feel like this comes from a business 173 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,680 managerial perspective, right? People trying to optimize for 174 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,200 team sizes and there is work also I think in education on 175 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,080 group sizes and effectiveness, right with like learning. 176 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,120 So like a good classroom size? Like a classroom size and the 177 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,960 when you're working together type sizes. 178 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,000 So you you have research that's on like, you know, ratio of 179 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,280 student to teacher and of course there's, you know, there's a 180 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,880 relative benefit to that as you can speak more with the students 181 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,440 and help them more directly, right? 182 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,600 And then agency type things, you know, but anyway, right. 183 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,880 And then there's the group sizing of when you're working 184 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,880 together with other people. There is a bit of AI. 185 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,880 Wish I had one of the studies that that my my colleague 186 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,760 actually, I think I was talking with him about where, you know, 187 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,680 if you get past a certain point, right? 188 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:16,520 I mean, it's hard to kind of navigate everybody's 189 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,040 experiential like work and doings on in that group. 190 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,040 But of course, if you're super small, right, you, you might 191 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,240 also struggle for other reasons. You get the same shifting 192 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,880 dynamics, right, moving from small to big that are probably 193 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,800 playing out in, you know, stuff like this paper, right? 194 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,800 Doing the mentor mentee groups. So yeah. 195 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,880 Except just because they're mentee buddies, they're not 196 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,680 working together per SE, right? That's maybe you know, not 197 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,120 totally captured in here, right? You could be, you could even be 198 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,600 competing. I don't know, right. 199 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,440 I don't know what your group is like so. 200 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,320 Yeah, so we spent like a good 15 minutes talking about the 201 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,600 premises and caveats of this paper. 202 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,440 I feel like the listeners got the idea that there are a lot of 203 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,640 caveats to be had in this paper, as with a lot of human 204 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,200 behavioral type papers I think. Yeah, they had to set boundaries 205 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,240 and they had to set constraints. And I think they have done a a 206 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,280 fairly good job of trying to set those constraints. 207 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,120 I I think it's a very interesting I. 208 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,080 Agree. I agree. 209 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,440 Cool. They, they were to, to my naive 210 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,400 eyes, who don't usually do human behavior research, they seem to 211 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:32,640 have done sort of like thorough, you know, boundary setting for 212 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,400 what they mean, what they're capable of, what they're not 213 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,840 actually looking at. So with that in mind, what did 214 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,880 they find out? I think in short sentence 215 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,880 everything is in the title basically. 216 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,640 That's which is a good thing. That's good thing. 217 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,040 I appreciate the efficiency. But essentially I think the two 218 00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:00,560 big finding is that based on the statistics that they have access 219 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:06,360 to mentees who trained in big groups have lower survival 220 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:11,800 rates, so higher dropout rates and you can we can think about 221 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,320 why that might be in later on. And the second big finding is 222 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:21,160 that, but if they do survive, if these big group trained mentees 223 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,280 do survive, they end up having very high impact in a field. 224 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,640 Right. The ones from the two case, yes. 225 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,240 The ones from the big group tend to have higher impact in their, 226 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,760 you know, career after the training, right? 227 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,800 So, yeah, those were the two big ones. 228 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:50,520 Where should we even start? Well, let's go ahead and maybe 229 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:56,000 start with, let's just start with the the actually Figure 2. 230 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,480 Why don't we do that one? Because this is it's actually in 231 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,040 reverse of the title, I guess, because the title begins with 232 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,280 the thriving in big groups. But one of their earliest 233 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,520 figures is capturing the survival rate difference. 234 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:18,000 And so Figure 2 DEF every, every figure is split into chemistry, 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,840 physics and neuroscience, right? So it is 3 columns of the same 236 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,320 graphs. But like you know, across 237 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,240 discipline, which is fun data visualization. 238 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,120 But what we see is the survival rate difference here, right? 239 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:40,880 So we see the small groups having a a split from the big 240 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,040 group survival rates and they've also put in the overall. 241 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,280 Now I would roughly just just kind of looking at them, they're 242 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,240 all scaled the same. So we can kind of take a look 243 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:57,680 and compare across, right, the the disciplines here in the 244 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,200 chemistry category compared to like the physics category. 245 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,200 This survival rate difference seems much smaller in chemistry. 246 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,480 Yes, yes. I don't know if this is, you 247 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,600 know, we'd have to look at the other charts and then perhaps 248 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,840 more of their their work to unpack this fully. 249 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,720 But at this point, when I see it so close, you know, to the 250 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,240 overall rate, I am curious as to what's the sort of minimum and 251 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,360 maximum group sizes are here, right. 252 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Like what is the the rough? I don't know if that said it in 253 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,960 here, if I've missed it, you know, maybe I'll I'll have to 254 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,080 find it, but it's probably in their supplemental, which is 255 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,400 also a giant document. Very extensive. 256 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,640 Right. But there is a question that 257 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,960 comes up when I see that and I go, I see there's a difference, 258 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,160 but it seems small. Is that smallness, that small 259 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,760 difference in survival rate a result of the like lived 260 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,040 environment of those groups that are being discussed above? 261 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,560 Or is it a consequence of having like the bottom 25% of chemistry 262 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,000 research groups being three people, five people, something 263 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,640 like that. And the top 25%, you know, often 264 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,680 being, I don't know, 15 people or something, right? 265 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,240 I know there are larger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 266 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,760 But we, we don't know that, right? 267 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,000 Like we don't know the absolute values in terms of how big and 268 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,440 how small these labs were, individual labs were they were 269 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,560 part of this data set. So that's hard to tell, but I 270 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,960 think the historical trend is what's interesting about that's 271 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,240 true bigger too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 272 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Because we start off in 1980s, right where like the small 273 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:51,440 group, big group is virtually no difference like they all seem to 274 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,280 be come together in one spot where so it didn't matter 275 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,080 whether you belong to a big group or a small group. 276 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:05,040 And that discrepancy slowly kind of widens by 2010, not like 277 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:11,000 linearly, but when you look at just 1980 versus 2010, you see 278 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,040 that there is a like you know beyond error bar differences 279 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,680 between big group and small group survival rate. 280 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:28,600 Yeah, I guess I sort of see it. I'm looking at it and wondering. 281 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,280 Here Len and Asami are trying to figure out what this figure 282 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:42,080 means, no pun intended, as like after maybe 2000, like the where 283 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:48,480 dash lines are and like going forward there seems to be a 284 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,280 decline in survival rate and survival count. 285 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,680 Yeah. So or or the with with respect 286 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,040 to the number of people who are entering. 287 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,560 So that is interesting. That means that as of more 288 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,520 recently, more people might be getting into scientific 289 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,240 training, but they're also dropping out ratio wise. 290 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,800 Yes. In a larger chunk than before. 291 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:21,880 And dropping out simply means not having a paper published 292 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,800 within 10 years after their first paper, right? 293 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,680 So that an important distinction that you and I briefly caught on 294 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,440 before we begin the the talk, right, So. 295 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,560 Yeah, doesn't doesn't necessarily mean you stopped 296 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:36,880 research. You might have just taken a 297 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,920 hiatus or you took on a very difficult project and you don't 298 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,520 have a lot of publications during that. 299 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,040 Kind of, right? After your training, yeah. 300 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:48,560 And that that could just be the nature of your research. 301 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,600 So and but yeah, so, so there was that and then. 302 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,360 Was there anything that you had seen that you want to go back 303 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:58,640 to? Yeah, because I've got, I think 304 00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:59,400 one or two others. I. 305 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,520 Want to go back to the findings, OK. 306 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,760 And and I kind of want to switch to sort of like a what they 307 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,480 found versus like what we have experienced, yes, with our own 308 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:16,440 limited experience. So switching gears. 309 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,920 One of their findings was that mentees trained in big group 310 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,240 have low survival rate, so mentees trained in big groups 311 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,080 tend to drop out more than mentees trained in small group. 312 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,040 That's an interesting sort of findings. 313 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:40,680 I guess I sort of, but I have experience in one relatively 314 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,720 small group, which was my PhD period where we were never at 315 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:51,080 any point more than six or seven people in our lab, including our 316 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,920 Pi. So OK, he was not and, and he, 317 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,200 he was only mentoring maybe 5:00-ish people at a time, OK. 318 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,600 And this has been true for at least for my Pi, entirety of his 319 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,400 teaching and entirety of his career has never been more than 320 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,840 that much. And my post doc on the other 321 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,000 hand, in contrast, I mean slightly, slightly different 322 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,880 field as well. You know, I went from physical 323 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,640 chemistry to more computer science and imaging processing 324 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,360 things. So like, maybe that's also the 325 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,880 reason why. But massive, massive team. 326 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,040 I think I never knew how many people were actually active 327 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,360 there because I only saw about half of them showing up to the 328 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,640 lab ever. But whenever we log in for group 329 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,920 meeting on Zoom, there's like 20 bubbles, you know, popping up. 330 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:50,000 So I think I never counted, but we had at least 20 + a handful 331 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,920 of visiting scholars at all times of various level. 332 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,400 Like some some are visiting master's students, some are 333 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,720 visiting postdocs, some are visiting professors, like, you 334 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,080 know, various degrees of visiting temporary people, but 335 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,960 still require mentorship right of the main Pi supposedly. 336 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,960 So that's sort of like that's my experience of giant group. 337 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,880 I know that maybe if you belong to mega group, there are many, 338 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,480 there's some groups where it's like there's one Pi, but there's 339 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,560 like 10 post doc. Each of them are leading their 340 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,240 own little lab essentially. And and and that that can be 341 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,440 true. Yeah, I think that's this paper 342 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,360 touches a little bit on whether in their kind of literature 343 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,080 review or some of their own discussion, right, that a 344 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,400 mentor, whether it's the postdoc or otherwise, right is also 345 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,920 playing a pretty substantial role in this. 346 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,400 And you know, if you've got a, I'm taking some liberties with 347 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,880 the the explanation and mixing in our experience, right. 348 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,200 But if you have a massive research group and you also have 349 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,160 the primary investigator, the Pi, the the mentor technically 350 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,400 from above, who is, you know, flooded with responsibility to 351 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:11,120 do, you know, A through Z for everyone and everything, then it 352 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,160 is very important to have that other sub layer, right, the 353 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,360 essential essentially other managers right to take care of 354 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:21,880 bits of the research. And if those things aren't 355 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,520 working together, then those that are at the bottom of that 356 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,720 chain, right, begin, you know, possibly getting lost in it, 357 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,080 right, so. Right, right. 358 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,320 So that's not that difficult to imagine, right? 359 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:41,600 Like if you if you find yourself in these mega big groups and you 360 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,920 hardly get a hold of your main Pi and maybe there's some 361 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:53,040 dysfunctional relationship between your more closer mentor, 362 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,800 either because he or she also needs a mentorship, but they're 363 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,600 not getting adequate amount of it. 364 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,640 And then now also tasked to mentor even more junior people, 365 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,320 like a fresh new postdoc. Yeah, right. 366 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:14,480 And that's a very difficult sort of place to be. 367 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,320 And if you are at the bottom rung of the hierarchy, as you 368 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,640 said, you might find yourself hopeless, helpless, and just 369 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,240 kind of have to get out. Very possible. 370 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,440 My take on this though, is really, and it's, it's, it's 371 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,160 sort of hard to do a priori, but if you, you want to know before 372 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,800 you join a lab to the best of your ability, which environment 373 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:47,840 you tend to thrive in and which what kind of environment you 374 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,840 tend to like your project, What you want to do aligns with. 375 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:58,240 I think knowing that when you're applying to grad school or you 376 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,040 know, maybe that's so in undergrad because you're 377 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,640 probably clueless. But definitely when you're 378 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,880 joining to your PhD lab, I think you want to have a decent idea 379 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000 of what what is your preferred environment, both for your 380 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,800 personal preference and for your project, like what your project 381 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,520 needs. I think it's important. 382 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,600 I, I, I agree, right, just without any other sort of 383 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,960 caveatting on that because there's another thought that I 384 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,640 guess relates here. And I've, I've actually had a 385 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,120 discussion on this over the past few days with different folks 386 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:37,640 where the transitionary period into something like even into 387 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,480 university, not just into grad school, right, or into other 388 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:46,320 things, but but into say grad school in this case ought to 389 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:55,120 come with some sort of pause and reflection, I think is my 390 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,640 conclusion. Because that's the only way 391 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,040 you're going to be able to look at that type of group structure 392 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:07,840 and environment and at least make a self aware educated 393 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,200 guess. A guess. 394 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,120 Yeah, at whether or not it will work. 395 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,720 Decision. Oh, right, that's it. 396 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,080 That's the way of saying it appropriately, right. 397 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760 More informed decision, otherwise known as I guess. 398 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:27,240 And so, yeah, So to make this choice and then still have to 399 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,360 take it in as you know, data a separate thing you were talking 400 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:31,640 about, right, This idea of. Yeah. 401 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,520 As, as a major, like, like there's only so much you can 402 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:40,320 know a priori before joining the group and, and you don't know 403 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,480 how, which way you're going to grow as well. 404 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,120 So there's only so much you can do, but you do want to do your 405 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:48,280 due diligence as much as possible. 406 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:55,080 And, and I think that probably doesn't get nearly as emphasized 407 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,480 to the undergrads trying to go for PhD. 408 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,160 Programs, we've definitely touched on this before I think, 409 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,160 but we will say it again because it's still very relevant for 410 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,000 everyone. It isn't maybe emphasized and in 411 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,200 some cases right. I was pushed to talk to like the 412 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,160 other grad students in the groups. 413 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,600 But I think it's hard to transmit the importance of that 414 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,240 unless you hear it repeatedly and you are sort of led to to 415 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,880 question it yourself and understand why it's important. 416 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,520 And as a sort of touching back to the paper here, I, I had 417 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,560 pulled up the sort of end of their part where they start 418 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,760 talking about limitations and they bring up plenty of both 419 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,920 questions and features of, you know, research group dynamics 420 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,240 that they don't cover. Some of which is just you might 421 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,360 have more or less collaboration directly between mentor and 422 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,760 mentee, even in bigger groups, even in smaller groups, the 423 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,880 postdocs and multiple mentors, the seniority levels, the 424 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:05,280 hierarchies, the the types of roles or positions that you 425 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,360 might be in as a student or the faculty might be in as a 426 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,640 student, or you know, the funding associated with that. 427 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,880 All of these things can suddenly play a role. 428 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,640 Which now to come back to our experiential advice thing. 429 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,040 This is why it's a guess because you can make your best bet 430 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,960 understanding of your current self and the things that you 431 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,200 might be looking for and what you think you understand the 432 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,240 environment to be. And then you have to go in and 433 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,800 see which of those are as you expected and which of those are 434 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,200 changing because of factors you were unaware of or different 435 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,360 than you expected. Yeah. 436 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,000 And so it is part of that process, yeah. 437 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, and it's really hard to 438 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,800 predict because, yeah, culture is famously unpredictable and, 439 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,640 you know, hard to define. You know what that is? 440 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,400 Even even if you ask the people who are in the culture right 441 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,960 now, it's hard to make them to describe in a way that is self 442 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,320 aware. And you know, so very few people 443 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,840 can, but that doesn't. That shouldn't stop you from 444 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,520 trying. No, this is. 445 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,200 I think that's that's really going to save you a lot of time 446 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,360 and suffering. Yeah, but because it also 447 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,080 hopefully prepares you to observe. 448 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,520 When you observe it and see that something is off, you have 449 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,960 something to compare back to and say, wait a minute, I was aiming 450 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,640 for this, and it doesn't look like this. 451 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,360 So. So maybe something has changed 452 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:48,720 or something has gone awry, and we can act on that instead of 453 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,640 just being in the position of, well, I guess there's nothing 454 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,800 that could have been done and this is just the way of the 455 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,960 situation. Right? 456 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,360 Yeah. So there's definitely that for 457 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,920 sure. And no, I I think this was like 458 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,920 a nice study in that they really did were quite clear about the 459 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,600 limitation of their scope from the get go, which I always 460 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:25,440 appreciate. And while the sort of findings 461 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:31,840 were not hugely deviating from what I anecdotally 462 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,920 experientially understood, it was nice still that there's a 463 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,880 rigorous statistic that is behind my hunch that seemed to 464 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,600 have been captured by, across very different disciplines, 465 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,760 chemistry, physics and neuroscience. 466 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,320 And I'm sure that things will go all the way wacky if we included 467 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,640 humanities training as well. Yeah, right. 468 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,080 I'm gonna not dive into the supplemental myself either, but 469 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,640 I feel like there's more. Yeah, I'm not gonna do hiding in 470 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,680 there. Yeah, but but I think, I think 471 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,760 it's worth, it's worth the look, I think. 472 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,080 And now you know which paper to pull out if anyone wants to 473 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,400 argue about this topic. Yeah, and this goes into, you 474 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,720 know, if you ever have to talk about things like the group 475 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,360 sizing in a in any situation, right there is a, you know, this 476 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,200 falls into that very, I don't know how big the field is, but 477 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,840 it falls into the constant ongoing discussion around how do 478 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:40,320 you get people working together and continuing to like promote 479 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,640 and move forward, you know, fields and information and to 480 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,400 help them develop in that career track, right. 481 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,240 This is this is part of that discussion, So yeah. 482 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I think academic 483 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:03,520 career is very strange and very unusual and non linear, no pun 484 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:10,400 intended in many ways. And yeah, it's, it's hard to 485 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,120 kind of decipher a pattern of in it because there's like you 486 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,040 said, there's just too many influences in there. 487 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:25,560 And and the fact that also we have to establish ourselves 488 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,320 relatively early in our career, otherwise there's no like 489 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,160 continuation beyond that. That's also, you know, pretty 490 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,840 unusual elements of this field, this industry. 491 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,160 Not saying it's healthy, but. No. 492 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,240 So it's a different path if you don't do the Yeah, it's just, 493 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,200 it's just positively not and it's a very different path not 494 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,760 to establish yourself early on, you know? 495 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,680 Yeah, happy to talk about that at some point seeing that's not 496 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,600 what I did. So you know. 497 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,800 But OK, maybe if you are listening to this and you're at 498 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,920 the stage where you're thinking about going to grad school or 499 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:19,480 thinking about starting your own lab, maybe and, or, or you're in 500 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,200 a place where you're kind of observing what different lab 501 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,560 dynamics work and how they work and don't work. 502 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:35,640 I think other than your own empirical observational data, 503 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,960 this is 1 good place to start maybe, and maybe all of the 504 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,440 references they're in there seems to be a ton. 505 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,920 There's a lot in here if you wanted to dig. 506 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,880 And this is, this is the direction from like, you know, 507 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,200 the sort of stem side of things as well. 508 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,960 And yeah, yeah, there's, there's a lot. 509 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,960 But also, if you just want to hear, you know our two cents, 510 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480 you can also write us into our. Inbox Yeah, right in. 511 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,840 Happy to. And I don't know like talking 512 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,800 about especially students thinking about joining. 513 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,760 Research groups or a lab? Research group. 514 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,400 It's definitely one of my favorite topics to discuss with 515 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:25,400 my mentees, if I can call them that, because I have a lot of 516 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,679 opinions about it. You heard it here folks. 517 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,960 We have opinions. Well, so do you. 518 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,560 I said we, I said we. I brought myself in there. 519 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,159 I know what I just did, listener, which is not something 520 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,159 that you ought to do. It confuses people, right? 521 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:48,120 Is I definitely the expected response from me was like, Asami 522 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,199 has opinions, right? Because it's snarky. 523 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,239 What I did was break that and and go, we have opinions. 524 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,240 And then you were, you know, prepared for me to be a snarky, 525 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,440 you know, son of a bitch. So I just I just. 526 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,720 Anticipated. Something which is a it's a good 527 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:07,640 guess if you're going to do it so too soon. 528 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,600 I'm going to I I opened the supplement. 529 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,960 Don't open the supplement. Don't don't open the supplement. 530 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,920 It is they did so much work. This is 45 pages of supplement. 531 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,360 Oh. My God. 532 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,320 And it's only. It's. 533 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,880 Only about sort of like chemistry, physics and 534 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,840 neuroscience like they do have of at the very beginning data 535 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:39,600 for other disciplines like 1 table that says we did these 536 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,320 things. They did apparently perform the 537 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,760 same analysis for engineering, cell bio and computer science, 538 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:49,520 which is somewhere else in this document. 539 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,400 And I think actually in their limitations, they mentioned that 540 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:58,400 cell bio actually has a reverse where like small groups or big 541 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,720 groups survive more maybe at some stages. 542 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,000 I'm not sure. We can double check that in the 543 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,320 paper folks, if you want to read it. 544 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,800 But yeah, so some, some interesting things, OK. 545 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,120 With that one hour teaser, we'll. 546 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,000 Let you go. A teaser for the entire paper. 547 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,520 Please enjoy checking it out if you do. 548 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,600 No, not even an entire paper teaser for the supplementary. 549 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,160 That's true. Yeah, That was just a teaser for 550 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,680 the supplementary. Go enjoy your 45 page read. 551 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:30,240 It'll only take you a few days. So all right, bye. 552 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:39,840 Bye. That's it for the show today. 553 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,320 Thanks for listening and find us on X at Eagle de Science. 554 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:50,080 That is EIGODESCIENCE. See you next time.