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Our first story deals with a 
subculture of heavy metal music 

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that some feel is sending a 
dangerous message to your kids. 

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The forces of evil on the dark 
side of devil, right? 

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And I want to talk tonight about
the devil and demons and witches

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and Wizards. 
And we just mix it up with 

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hardcore and aggression and come
out with something. 

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We face an original sound, loud,
fast, heavy. 

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You know well what? 
Do you got? 

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What do you got? 
You're listening to Riff 

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Worship, the podcast that 
attempts to answer the age-old 

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question, what makes a riff? 
Why do we care about riffs? 

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Talking about some of our 
favorite albums containing 

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riffs, I'm one of your hosts, 
Austin Paulson. 

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With me again is the beautiful 
bald Hope, the great Baldini, 

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Dylan Adams. 
What's up, bud? 

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Doing pretty good, you know, 
Nothing's strict. 

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Yeah, I'm doing fine. 
Good, I'm glad you icing them. 

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Frozen peas, man, Frozen peas 
been a, a gift and a curse the 

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last few days. 
But you know, I, I did my due 

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diligence and I, I told myself I
was going to do something and I 

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did it. 
I went through with it. 

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I did it for us all. 
I'm happy for you. 

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Justin Swindle is not here with 
us this week, but he is here 

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with us in spirit as always, 
living like a kebab Crane. 

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Is that his friend? 
I forget the guy. 

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He's he's got like a superhuman 
samurai situation going on, like

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surfing the web and all sorts of
shit. 

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That's a deep cut. 
That's a deep 90s show cut that 

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a lot of people won't get. 
I'm just kind of like reeling 

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off of our last episode that we 
did very intense record, a lot 

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of fun to talk about. 
So we did this. 

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A lot of accents. 
So I I decided it would be 

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perfect to follow it up with a a
really nice palate cleanser. 

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Definitely a record that is not 
just as intense or furious or 

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hard to digest if you haven't 
been in it for a long time. 

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This is the equivalent of like 
just screaming in a can and just

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hearing everything kind of wash 
back at you. 

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Arguably one of the most 
influential debut albums and 

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extreme music of the late 90s, 
early 90s even. 

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What are we talking about today?
The Dillinger Escape Plan? 

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Calculating Infinity. 99 What a 
year I was. 

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I was in kindergarten. 
Yeah, I was 99 and 99. 

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I was still playing Pokémon. 
Man, this shit wasn't even on 

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the radar for a few more years. 
It's hard to believe it's just a

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few more. 
This is a It's a weird 1 for me.

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I didn't like really grow up and
I wasn't listening to this band 

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in high school. 
I knew of this band had a lot of

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friends who were big on the kind
of like, more technically 

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inclined groups, you know, you 
know, running through the 

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school's ink budget, printing 
off ultimate guitar tabs. 

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It's just binary. 
Yeah, it's this is one of them 

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for sure. 
You know, so to kind of like, go

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back and fully invest my time 
and even the singer, I'm not 

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even really that much familiar 
with this record as opposed to 

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maybe some of Greg's records. 
But I figured we're definitely 

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going to talk about later 
records, so why not just start 

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at the beginning? 
But I'd love to hear your kind 

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of relationship. 
You said pretty, pretty young 

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age that you were diving into 
this. 

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Yeah. 
God 15, I think 14 or 15 when I 

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found the band. 
So right around the release of 

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Miss Machine, which is the 
second record, this is actually 

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the album I'm the least familiar
with out of the entire catalog. 

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I this is, I really do wish 
Swindell was here for this 

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episode because this is like, 
this is right up his alley. 

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Like just literally 0 song 
structure to any of these things

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and like chaos and time 
signatures and all sorts of shit

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going on here, right? 
And I'm a fan of a lot of that 

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stuff. 
But this is this is the outlier 

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record of this band's catalog 
for me. 

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But found this band at a really 
young age. 

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My friend of mine from high 
school named Frank Martinez 

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introduced me to the Dillinger 
Escape Plan. 

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It was the title track from 
Sorry, not the title track from 

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Miss Machine. 
It was a Panasonic Youth, which 

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is like the big opening track on
that record. 

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And I was hook, line and sinker 
because it was when my brain 

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started to kind of diverge and 
get the more extreme things. 

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And this band is very extreme in
a completely different way than 

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say, like an Incantation or a 
Suffocation, right? 

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But you mentioned all of like 
the more technically kind of 

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proficient bands. 
Even this band is kind of kind 

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of where a lot of that stuff 
starts for a lot of like of the 

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modern metal core bands that 
were out at that time that were 

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doing it like between the Buried
Me, Protest The Hero, the 

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Faceless, more of a death metal 
ranging thing. 

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So like this band's kind of the 
crux of that. 

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But I was a big fan of the Miss 
Machine record, tons of like 

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Faith No More Influence, Mr. 
Bungle, which were great gateway

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bands for younger people. 
But I was a really big fan of 

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their 2007 release Ironworks, 
which we will definitely talk 

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about. 
That album is batshit, but this 

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thing is too. 
And getting to kind of go back 

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and listen to these early songs 
and realize this is before the 

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band was really even 
fundamentally sound. 

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It was just what's the most 
intense shit we can do it like 

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do to people. 
And that's really what this is. 

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It's like, what's the most 
intense fucking thing we can 

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throw at people and maybe have 
like a couple grooves thrown? 

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Yeah, I there's, there's 
definitely some of those in 

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there. 
I, you know, I don't even does 

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it really have riffs even I 
don't, I don't know. 

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I mean, I, I, I'd like to think 
so. 

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I think there's we can, we can 
get into it. 

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And it's, it's coming like 
you're going like you were 

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coming through. 
You're finding the you're 

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finding the resin in the carpet 
like it's there. 

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What When we ultimately get to 
the record in a little while, 

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I'd I'd like to think that the 
guitar itself is more of a it's 

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almost it's almost its own voice
in a way. 

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It's not like it's not your 
traditional approach to guitar 

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playing as it's just like the 
like you mentioned, there are no

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traditional structures to this. 
It's really just kind of they're

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making up their own kind of 
unique take on a lot of 

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different influences. 
But it's this record is very 

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interesting. 
The back story of this record 

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and band, as you know, it's like
equal parts kind of just like 

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goofball, like young kids, you 
know, figuring it out for 

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themselves. 
It's it's tragic. 

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It's really kind of coming into 
your own and your instrument. 

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There's just so much to kind of 
explore. 

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But you know, like many bands, 
they start out just kind of 

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playing in local projects, like 
local hardcore bands, as we've 

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discussed that many times in the
show. 

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So like for all the the 
Dillinger Escape Plan forms in 

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1997 in Morris Plains, NJ, all 
of the members I would say 

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basically grew up together 
cutting their teeth in at 

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different local and metal and 
hardcore bands. 

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Bands that were mentioned were 
Prozac, Boxer, Samsara and Mal 

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Factor. 
But the one that kind of has the

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the main roots of this band kind
of form out of another project 

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called Arcane, which was like 
this aggressive political, maybe

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even like straight edge hardcore
band from the area. 

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The lineup of this band 
consisted of featured Dillinger 

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members Benjamin Wyman, Dimitri 
Menococcus, Chris Penny, as well

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as Bruce Fulton, Matt Beckerman 
and Brad McCann. 

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And I'll, I'll just kind of like
say, I used the Decibel Magazine

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Hall of Fame for a lot of the 
information we had. 

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I also went through like a bunch
of old blog posts and old 

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interviews, some of which I 
found from like an old tour 

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manager or, or like manager of 
the band. 

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Some of the early stuff I'm not 
like super 100% confident on. 

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But this is what I interpreted 
it to be. 

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So for sure this band forms out 
of an old hardcore band called 

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Arcane. 
They released A5 song demo in 

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1996. 
After a few months of playing in

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this band, they were basically 
like this song or this band 

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essentially has like a ceiling 
that this isn't going anywhere. 

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I'm kind of bored of it, kind of
embarrassed. 

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I don't know, like they just 
wanted to do something else. 

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So by early 97 the band 
underwent a change in personnel.

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We have McCann and Fulton 
leaving the band and were 

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replaced by then fill in bassist
Adam Dahl who had been a long 

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time friend and former bandmate 
of Chris Penny and guitarist 

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Derek Brantley. 
Matt Beckerman also seems to 

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have left around this time. 
The thing with Matt too, wasn't 

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sure if he was like a member 
exactly because he comes up in a

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little bit, but he is listed on 
the demo so I just felt like I 

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should include him on there. 
But with these lineup changes, 

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they also play one final show as
Arcane under their new name, 

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Dillinger Escape Plan at a New 
Jersey VFW hall with Overcast 

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and Turmoil. 
I mean, the you've heard Swindle

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and I reference like VFW Hall 
shows a lot just in this this 

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era of hardcore. 
This was kind of the world that 

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these bands took over, right? 
Where else could you book shows,

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VFW halls, event centers, that 
sort of thing? 

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Probably charge 50 bucks to rent
it out a night, something like 

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that. 
But play your first show, your 

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first official show under your 
new title, like playing with a 

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couple heavyweights of the era. 
Overcast, which we've talked 

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about and length, features 
future members of some really 

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big bands and prominent bands. 
Turmoil was a very big band in 

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the hardcore scene during this 
period as well, but those, as 

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we'll learn the early Dillinger 
Escape Plan shows, are just 

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unrelenting chaos. 
It kind of seemed like they 

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didn't really have a group or 
like a maybe they weren't a part

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of any particular scene. 
They didn't have like people to 

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kind of like take note from, to 
learn from just yet. 

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Like they really are figuring it
out on their own. 

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I did find that the Dillinger 
Escape Plan name was apparently 

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suggested by a friend, Matt 
Makowski, while watching the 

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documentary on John Dillinger. 
I know there's like an early I, 

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I, I feel like it's the first 
EP, like they do kind of like 

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splice in a little like sound 
bite of John Dillinger. 

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So I mentioned Matt Beckerman. 
He apparently organized this 

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show at the VFW hall. 
He also like kind of came up to 

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the band and said like, hey, I 
want to start this label and I 

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think you guys should put out 
your like demo for the label. 

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So ultimately what became their 
self-titled debut EP in 97 would

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be released on Matt's label Now 
or Never Records. 

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So they recorded this as a four 
piece. 

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Derek Brantley, who was like the
guitarist, brief guitarist that 

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this band had mysteriously left.
He stopped answering his phone 

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and I think they play like one 
other show with him. 

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But other than that they 
recorded as a four piece. 

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This was also produced by long 
time collaborator of the band 

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Steve Ebbets at Trax E studio in
South River, NJ. 

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00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,840
We we've talked about Steve 
Ebbets before on this show with 

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00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,480
our Human Remains episode. 
But local New Jersey guy he'd 

200
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,640
played in AI think he was a bass
player of a glam rock band from 

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what I saw. 
American Angel. 

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But by this point he had already
worked with bands like MOD, 

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Incantation, Demolition Hammer, 
Symphony X who will come up in a

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little while and of course Human
Remains. 

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But the main reason why Ben 
Wyman specifically sought out 

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Evitz was because he had worked 
on a couple Dead Guy records, 

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their work ethic, EP and of 
course fixation on a Co worker. 

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00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:03,960
And if you could draw 
comparisons to early Dillinger, 

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00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,840
you know, Dead Guys, Dead Guy, 
like Rorschach are probably a 

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00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,800
couple bands that you could 
throw them in the same realm 

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with. 
Because you can't even really 

212
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,960
compare this band to like 
Converge at this time, because 

213
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Converge at this time was very 
much kind of moshier, right? 

214
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,640
And even even Dead guy has a 
little bit more like groove and 

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and kind of like stuff you can 
like sink your teeth in a little

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00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:32,000
bit more. 
Whereas like this is purely 

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just. 
It's shit in a blender. 

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00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,640
Here's what I'll say because 
convert like I I like your early

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00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,760
converge. 
I think it's got like some some 

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scronk and some like wonky 
fucking, you know, noodle riffs 

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and stuff like that. 
But even those parts have like, 

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I don't know, more traditional 
structure to them. 

223
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,840
I will say this EP is far more 
tame than anything that came 

224
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,320
after it. 
Like this is probably like the 

225
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,960
most traditional at this point. 
Like if you if you look at the 

226
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,360
stuff that came after, it's like
miles different from what this 

227
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,840
is. 
That not to say that there isn't

228
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,440
some weird shit on here there, 
there's plenty of that, but it's

229
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,720
like very it gets very different
by the second EP Even so, as we 

230
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,760
kind of mentioned earlier, 
they're they're figuring out 

231
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,080
they're, you know, they're 
having to try to book shows. 

232
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,600
I remember reading A blog post 
from I believe their manager Tom

233
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,160
at the time of him and Ben 
sitting in this like pizza shop 

234
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,040
that Dimitri was working at. 
So Dimitri's like running 

235
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,200
deliveries and they're like 
running up like the phone bill 

236
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,520
or they were using a like a 
dialer on the phone to just call

237
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,560
different cities or call 
different numbers that they had 

238
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,840
contacts and to book this like 
tour in support of EP. 

239
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:58,120
So they did like a 13 date tour 
before this though they recruit 

240
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,880
the guitarist John Fulton, who 
had played with Adam and Chris 

241
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,960
in both Sam Serra and 
Malefactor. 

242
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,920
And I, I want to mention this 
because John's like kind of 

243
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,840
maybe the influence that they 
need to kind of get a little 

244
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,880
weirder, a little bit more 
experimental. 

245
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,120
He seems to have had like a 
really big influence on Ben 

246
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,320
specifically, just kind of like 
upping his guitar game. 

247
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:26,080
Maybe like even listening to 
different styles of music, even 

248
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,760
like many first tours, kind of 
grueling, kind of disastrous. 

249
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,800
They're sleeping outside. 
They're there's shows that are 

250
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,760
cancelled. 
There's one in Warminster, PA 

251
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,800
that's mentioned that had a lot 
of like technical issues. 

252
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,880
But someone who was in 
attendance of that show was a 

253
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,200
local promoter, promoter by the 
name of Tony Pointless, who's 

254
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,240
also the vocalist of a band 
called Rambo. 

255
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,800
He invited the band to hop on a 
show with Brutal truth. 

256
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,720
And today is the day at a kind 
of venue, famous venue called 

257
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,000
the Log 13. 
Oh, the Log 13. 

258
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,400
Yeah, yeah. 
Brutal truth in Today is the 

259
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,600
Day. 
Again, this band was getting 

260
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,160
booked on like any bill that had
extremity to it, right? 

261
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,560
This was during that era where 
no one could really place 

262
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,280
certain bands if they sounded 
slightly off the beaten path, 

263
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,240
right? 
Like even today is the day, 

264
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,920
which is a very kind of 
progressive for lack of a fact 

265
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,160
and just strange almost 
amphetamine reptile esque ban. 

266
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,760
But it also has all of these 
other influences right? 

267
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,360
You know, Brutal truth being 
death grind banned for the lack 

268
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,120
of a better word, like a a 
really high death grind ban and 

269
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,440
just being weird and groovy and 
like hey, these guys would kind 

270
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,440
of fit in on this bill. 
It's really weird. 

271
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,480
None of those 3 bands sound at 
all. 

272
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,480
Could you imagine that show that
was in 9798 like? 

273
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,720
Roughly, would have had to have.
Been 97 because I think that was

274
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,400
the the brutal truth, the record
that was it sounds of the animal

275
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,000
Kingdom came out that year, I 
believe, yeah. 

276
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:08,000
That would have been the last 
one. 

277
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,400
Yeah, which, yeah, they're crazy
bands for sure. 

278
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,280
They're also experimenting with 
their state show. 

279
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,400
If I think if there's one thing 
a lot of people might know about

280
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,839
this band is that they are very 
intense live band. 

281
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,680
You know, there's talks of, you 
know, firecrackers and just all 

282
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,280
sorts of shit that kind of like 
generates a buzz around like the

283
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,880
local scene. 
They gained A reputation by 

284
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,760
doing just some wacky wild shit.
I believe Dimitri would breathe 

285
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,120
fire. 
I believe he'd do the I It's the

286
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,480
Gene Simmons thing, right? 
Sure, but. 

287
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,800
But now you're just in someone's
living room or like you're 

288
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,080
you're in. 
W Hall, you know a venue that 

289
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,560
holds 40 people, you say fuck 
it, do it when I I've only seen 

290
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,160
this band One time and it was at
a venue in Little Rock, AR 

291
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,760
called the village, probably 
like a three to 500 cap room, 

292
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,320
maybe a little bit more, but it 
was an old it was an old movie 

293
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,960
theater converted to this. 
It was like a huge it was like a

294
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,400
Dome and they were on this huge 
tour. 

295
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,160
This is much later as when 
Greg's in the band, I didn't 

296
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,240
really know what to expect, but 
I pseudo knew what to expect 

297
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,480
because of the intensity of what
he brought to the band. 

298
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,440
First, second of the first song,
this venue has scaffolding like 

299
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,880
all the lights are he's jets up,
hanging upside down like just 

300
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,280
directly above me, just like 
belting out the song that 

301
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,160
they're opening the set with. 
I went, OK, if he falls off that

302
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,120
thing or jumps, we're all doomed
because he was a kind of a 

303
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,400
bigger guy than like, oh, we're 
all fucked. 

304
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,680
So just to imagine like being in
a a venue, shoulder to shoulder,

305
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,800
seeing some motherfucker breathe
fire and you're like, what's 

306
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,040
going on? 
All this to say, all the buzz 

307
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,520
that they like that generated 
this reputation got to the good 

308
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,720
folks at Relapse. 
And so they I'd heard about the 

309
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,560
show with brutal truth and today
as the day and then I believe 

310
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,200
they went to a show in Reading, 
PA where they were kind of 

311
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,400
interested in signing the band 
to a deal. 

312
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,720
I, I even saw a thing where Ben 
like suggested that maybe he had

313
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,880
lied and said earache records 
was interested in signing them 

314
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,720
to kind of like, well, you know,
oh, I'd love to worry. 

315
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,080
We're we're already talking to 
some other labels here. 

316
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,560
You should definitely, I don't 
know, maybe sign us or 

317
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,040
something. 
Hey, man, that's how you do it. 

318
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,720
That's from growing up watching 
pro wrestling and hearing about 

319
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,240
all those guys say like, hey, 
well, this place is going to pay

320
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,120
me more. 
OK, here you go. 

321
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:42,600
Here's a here's a little bit 
more. 

322
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,600
Let's sweeten the dill a little 
bit. 

323
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,960
Let's get you signed. 
I'm sure that amount of money 

324
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,040
was going around somewhere in 
these record labels. 

325
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,960
He ain't, he ain't going to call
Dig. 

326
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:50,920
What do I? 
Yeah. 

327
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,800
We're going to snail, man. 
He's not picking up the phone. 

328
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,280
I'm. 
Not cost money to call overseas,

329
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,520
he ain't. 
Working on a berserker. 

330
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,640
Record or something so the first
release for relapse would 

331
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,720
ultimately be their sophomore EP
under the running board, which 

332
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,520
was released on October 22nd to 
1998. 

333
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,320
This I said before the material 
on this is like far more out 

334
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:19,360
there and just like insane, and 
I think this is like like I 

335
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,440
said, the the debut EP is not 
like completely out of the 

336
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,440
wheelhouse, but you can now see 
like OK, here's the stepping 

337
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,720
stone to. 
The debut record, like I think 

338
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,600
this is far more in line and I 
love it. 

339
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,400
I think it's fucking fantastic. 
It's like 3 songs. 

340
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,560
Abe the Cop is like, yeah, such 
a crazy fucking track. 

341
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,240
It's like 6 minutes music, 
something like that. 

342
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,400
Like it's real, it's really 
fast, it's really intense. 

343
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,200
It kind of falls into that 
category of I can't believe what

344
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,520
I just heard. 
Let me play it again. 

345
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,080
You know what, what am I 
hearing? 

346
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,120
What is this? 
What what's going on? 

347
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,640
Who's doing this? 
Who are these guys? 

348
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,080
And that's a lot of I think 
that's a lot of the interest 

349
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,200
when it comes to music like this
too is like, what the fuck am I 

350
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,680
hearing? 
Right? 

351
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,360
You know, it's it would be 
different if it's just some 

352
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:11,720
other hardcore band with some 
like technical parts to it or 

353
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,640
some dissonant parts. 
Like we've all heard that that 

354
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,560
existed back in this era. 
But to hear something like this 

355
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,320
and you can go, oh, this falls 
in the same category as like 

356
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,880
maybe some of these more forward
moving hardcore adjacent bands, 

357
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,600
right? 
Like bands we're going bands we 

358
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,480
have talked about on the on the 
show before, Coalesce, Botch 

359
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,440
bands, we, you know, Converge, 
Jesuit, all these bands like 

360
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,280
that. 
And it fits right in, even 

361
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,360
though it sounds vastly 
different from all those bands 

362
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,680
we just mentioned. 
Yeah. 

363
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaking of Jesuit, they're kind
of circulating, you know, that 

364
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,920
these new songs around and it 
gets into the hands of Nate 

365
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,360
Newton, who was in Jesuit 
eventually Converge. 

366
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,400
He loves it. 
He's so impressed by this EP 

367
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,520
that he invites the band to go 
out on tour. 

368
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,240
And I don't think I don't, as 
far as I know, I don't know if 

369
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,200
they, I don't think they've 
played shows together before. 

370
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,920
He gets it. 
They definitely did not know 

371
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,680
Botch. 
So Jesuit was going on tour with

372
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,880
Botch, who they are already 
established friends with. 

373
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,720
And now you have like all these 
young guys from New Jersey also 

374
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,040
joining the tour. 
And it seemed like Nate was 

375
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,680
already gung ho. 
He's like, you guys got to check

376
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,400
this out. 
You got to listen to this band. 

377
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,160
There's some stories of like 
this tour where I believe the 

378
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,440
Dave Knutson from Bocce, like 
the first night there in the 

379
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,480
basement, he's like looking, he 
doesn't even he doesn't know how

380
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:43,000
to even like recognize what it 
is like, what is this shit? 

381
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,840
And so I think it did take maybe
playing the EP in the car for 

382
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,080
him, like, OK, like this is this
is pretty sick. 

383
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,240
And there's there's talks of 
like a lot of hazing going on. 

384
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,040
There's like van wars and all 
sorts of shit. 

385
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,720
Just literally just get. 
Just get to what we already know

386
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,360
took place on this. 
So there's a lot of poop 

387
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:02,560
playing. 
The main thing. 

388
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,480
Dillinger was only on this tour 
for like a few weeks and so they

389
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,520
I believe like shifted off and 
they were going to perform at 

390
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,520
like Milwaukee Metal Fest. 
And the rest of the band they go

391
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,680
to, I believe they go to Canada.
There's some stuff at the 

392
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:16,960
border. 
But for the main thing with 

393
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:23,080
Dillinger, Ben Weinman had taken
a shit in a cup and then put it 

394
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,760
in a food bag and put it in one 
of the vehicles. 

395
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,560
And I believe there was a note 
that said thanks for dealing 

396
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,800
with our shit, Dillinger. 
And they didn't find it for a 

397
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,600
while. 
Oh my God, my favorite. 

398
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,000
My favorite ending note of that 
story is when they do find it I 

399
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,200
think. 
I think it's Nate in the there's

400
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,680
a whole Decibel article just on 
that tour. 

401
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:53,760
Later on, Nate actually sees the
bag and someone's about to open 

402
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,320
the cup and I think he just says
don't open that fucking cup. 

403
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,640
Like that's in quotes. 
You know it. 

404
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,040
We've talked about that tour, I 
believe on our botch episode as 

405
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,040
well. 
I believe we kind of spoke on 

406
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,440
that to bring back the, the roto
dialer or the the calling the 

407
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,400
the caller card or whatever. 
The Is this the tour where Botch

408
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,520
was utilizing it and almost got 
caught in like a cafe or 

409
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,160
something and the cops rolled in
and like, I don't know, they 

410
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,080
dodged out? 
I think this is post or this is 

411
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,000
like. 
So this is before. 

412
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,880
Pre calculating this is pre. 
We are the Romans. 

413
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:33,640
Yeah, Pre we are the Romans. 
I like it's kind of like and 

414
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,320
even yeah, obviously like pre 
Nate getting into I think he may

415
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,000
have been a feeling at this 
point or like just before 

416
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,360
leaning into them to convert 
fully. 

417
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:46,080
So you kind of have like some 
pretty pivotal people on the 

418
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,640
cusp of like what they're going 
to be known for at this point. 

419
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,080
So it's like a early tour. 
But yeah, I I know Ben had 

420
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,920
mentioned I think they went on a
European Tour tour later. 

421
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,640
He's like fearing for his life, 
like, oh, the chickens are 

422
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,920
coming home. 
The rears, Bobby Boucher, like. 

423
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,840
We're sharing, we're sharing a 
bus with these guys now because 

424
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,720
then in Europe, I believe the 
thing was like double Decker 

425
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480
buses, you could put a couple 
bands in, like multiple bands. 

426
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,640
So like sharing a bus or sharing
a van, who knows? 

427
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,760
Like my God, the fear of going 
to sleep in that van, of just 

428
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,680
knowing what you did. 
Dillinger also released 27 inch 

429
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,160
splits in the same year, 98, 
both featuring songs that would 

430
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:35,840
appear on Calculating Infinity. 
They did one with the New Jersey

431
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,880
metal Corp band Nora and 
released through Ferret Music. 

432
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,040
This the song that was on that 
is 4th grade dropout. 

433
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,680
The other was with Vermont's 
Drowning Man for Hydrahead and 

434
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,960
that featured Jim Fear. 
So some of the material, I 

435
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040
believe they're about like 3 
songs written like prior to like

436
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,680
the big like recording or, or I 
should say writing sessions for 

437
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,000
Calculating Infinity. 
But I want to say like based off

438
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,880
of, you know, the the sophomore 
P under the running board. 

439
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,200
They're getting a lot of buzz. 
They're getting cooler tours. 

440
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,200
People are coming to see them 
play. 

441
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,920
It's clear that there is like an
upward trajectory after this 

442
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,240
release. 
They had stepped up their game. 

443
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000
Musically, the songs are better,
they're tighter. 

444
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,880
Like things, things are 
happening. 

445
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,960
But as this is gearing up to 
write Calculating Infinity, two 

446
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,280
major things happen. 
Guitarist John Falton, he kind 

447
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,920
of decides like, oh, I'm not 
this isn't really what I joined 

448
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,880
the band for. 
Like, you guys are, you guys are

449
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,680
taking this seriously and that's
cool. 

450
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,320
But this is this is fun for me. 
Like, this is something to do 

451
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,960
like while I'm not in school. 
I believe he left and ultimately

452
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,200
became like, I don't know if he 
pursued like computer 

453
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,600
programming, I read. 
But he leaves the band and 

454
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,360
leaves a lot of the songwriting 
responsibility on Ben's 

455
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,440
shoulders because before it was 
almost as if, like, John would 

456
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,800
come in with, like, all of these
crazy ideas, and Ben would kind 

457
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,720
of, like, rein it in and, like, 
structure it out in a way. 

458
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,320
Now it's like, all on Ben. 
And so that kind of leaves him 

459
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,320
to, like, really fill this gap 
of like, OK, well, I wasn't 

460
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,160
really writing like that. 
But now we're going to have to, 

461
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,320
like, figure it out. 
And I think he does kind of, 

462
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,000
like, talk about how he leans 
more into those influences, 

463
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,120
influences. 
He's like, listening to more 

464
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,960
jazz stuff. 
He's just kind of taking it all 

465
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,240
in. 
Another thing that happens, 

466
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,400
sadly, Adam Dahl, who's the 
band's bass player, gets into a 

467
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,320
pretty serious car accident, 
which, you know, when I heard 

468
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,960
that, I was like, man, what, 
like how did this happen? 

469
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,280
So you kind of talk about in the
Decimal magazine, but basically 

470
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,040
in August of like 998, like 
maybe just a few weeks after the

471
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,320
Jesuit tour, he's in like a 
minor Fender Bender. 

472
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,200
Like he's not going very fast. 
Like I I'm not exactly sure on 

473
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,000
the details but basically the 
way the the hit happened it like

474
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,960
dislocated his like vertebrae at
some point like and he was like 

475
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,920
paralyzed from the chest down. 
From what I grasp too, there's 

476
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,640
other there's other bits of 
information, something along the

477
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,440
lines of like he was just 
reaching to grab ACD and and 

478
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,800
this happened and it just 
lodged. 

479
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,160
It kind of dislodged everything,
but also the fact that the way 

480
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,760
the vertebrae's were dislocated,
if they were like even the 

481
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,760
smallest amount moved a 
different direction, gone, like 

482
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,360
spinal cord severed everything 
gone. 

483
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,440
So it, it's like, you know, I 
had a conversation earlier in 

484
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,760
the week with a close friend of 
mine where we're all kind of 

485
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,320
living on the edge of a knife 
anyway. 

486
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,360
You know, we're everything's 
purely luck. 

487
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,720
We're kind of seconds away from 
disaster. 

488
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,720
No matter what. 
We're just steering the train. 

489
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,360
This is one of those situations 
where the train just went off 

490
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,920
the tracks and you're you're, 
it's out of your element of what

491
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:01,120
happened. 
Everything is out of your 

492
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,360
control. 
But you know, these are two 

493
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,160
major events that could possibly
cause not only a band to break 

494
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,800
up, but a label to drop a band. 
Yeah, I mean, I just couldn't 

495
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:20,920
imagine the the feeling of like,
all right, this is a like, yes, 

496
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,600
this is something we've been 
working on for like the the past

497
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,560
few years. 
Like we but also it's like your 

498
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,520
friend and like you grew up with
this person and like I'm sure 

499
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,760
it's not easy to like recognize 
like, oh, this is like a life 

500
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,640
altering event. 
And I think, you know, for Ben, 

501
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,320
he was, I don't think he was 
anticipating Adam kind of having

502
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,040
to like step back from the band 
at this point. 

503
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,720
I think I I want to say they 
even were like, well, let's get 

504
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,360
a fill in and we'll just, we'll 
just wait until he gets better 

505
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,040
and that'll be that. 
And, you know, Chris, on the 

506
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560
other hand, yeah, it's a pretty 
traumatic event. 

507
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,240
Again, a person he grew up 
playing in in bands with is now 

508
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,280
paralyzed. 
And so I think because now you 

509
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,400
have like these two different 
kind of, you know, states of 

510
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,200
mind and how to how they're 
approaching this, it causes a 

511
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,920
little bit of tension in like 
the writing sessions for what 

512
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,480
became this album, 'cause if if 
you listen to the record, I 

513
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,320
think this is it. 
I don't think it would be crazy 

514
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,640
to think that like a guitar 
player and a drummer wrote this 

515
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,880
record. 
Oh, of course, the conversation 

516
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,880
that is happening between those 
two instruments is asinine. 

517
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,200
It's crazy. 
Tense, tense conversation. 

518
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,280
Yes, there's there's a lot of 
tension all over this thing and 

519
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,320
it's very evident with the moods
the guys were in and the 

520
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,920
pressure that they were under to
record this. 

521
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,600
And what are we going to do? 
Who's going to play bass? 

522
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,640
Do we get a session guy? 
Do we get a fill in? 

523
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,600
You know, do we have Steve play 
bass on the record right, 'cause

524
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,640
Steve is known as a bass player.
Do we get Steve to play bass on 

525
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,240
the record? 
Do we, does Ben play bass on the

526
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,600
record, which we ultimately find
out Ben played bass on the 

527
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,640
record And Ben, hopefully I'm 
not moving too quickly here. 

528
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,240
Ben ends up doing a basically 
taking everything that was 

529
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:12,560
recorded before that Adam had 
played on and looks at it and 

530
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:18,400
just goes, OK, how can I still 
do this standard that Adam has 

531
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,720
set and kind of play in that 
style and he does it. 

532
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,400
Yeah, and he even gets like for 
Adam, having gone through this 

533
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,280
accident, Adam's there like 
coaching him through the bass 

534
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,600
parts and everything, like 
here's how you should play this,

535
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,560
here's how you should do this. 
So he's still involved in like 

536
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,240
he does make appearances in the 
studio, which we will get to 

537
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,520
later. 
One incident in particular. 

538
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,760
But they also do recruit another
guitar player during this time, 

539
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,480
Brian Benoit, who was in Jesuit.
They so they knew him threw that

540
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,120
tour and that band. 
So Brian had just graduated 

541
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,200
college and I think the there 
was kind of like a fork in the 

542
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,680
road saying like, well, I could 
either pursue a career because 

543
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:12,600
my band is kind of on the outs. 
It's Nate had kind of joined 

544
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,360
Converge full time. 
He's leaning all the way into 

545
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,520
that band. 
Or I could take this offer from 

546
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,160
this other band and and play in 
that. 

547
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,200
So he ultimately kind of like 
uproots his life and and 

548
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:30,120
relocates to New Jersey, I 
believe, and he doesn't play 

549
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,920
necessarily on the record. 
He didn't. 

550
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,600
Here's what I should say. 
He doesn't write anything for 

551
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,200
the record. 
He doesn't play on the record. 

552
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,760
I think it it's more to like 
fill out a bit of the the girth,

553
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,560
I guess of the fill out the 
sound. 

554
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,440
But I don't think they wanted to
like waste any time trying to 

555
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,040
like, Hey, we got a you know, 
let's write. 

556
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,240
No, let's just get you up to 
speed on the like the live 

557
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,640
performance aspect of this you 
I'll show you the parts you can 

558
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,680
play them. 
But for the most part, I don't 

559
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,240
think he provided any writing. 
Although there is some vocal, I 

560
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,600
think there's not some vocal 
phrasing. 

561
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:11,400
There's some there's a he he did
write a second guitar part for 

562
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,160
clip the apex. 
And then he also helped do some 

563
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,240
vocal phrasing for variations on
a cocktail dress because it it 

564
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,440
said that Wyman and Dimitri were
kind of like they were just they

565
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,680
had had it with that they were 
like totally drained. 

566
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,480
So some contributions, but for 
the most part, Ben is kind of 

567
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,200
like as far as the guitars are 
concerned and the bass, that's 

568
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,600
all been. 
You'd mentioned Dmitri and kind 

569
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,200
of having had enough with that 
track, but obviously music is 

570
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,960
complex and complicated as this 
doesn't really have a lot of 

571
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,320
room to breathe. 
There's not a lot of room for 

572
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,440
vocals really. 
This music is very 

573
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,440
claustrophobic. 
So from what we've got here in 

574
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,200
front of us, it seems like 
Dimitri had to wait till 

575
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,920
everything was done. 
Like done completely, no 

576
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,600
overdubs, nothing to put vocals 
on top of this. 

577
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,920
Because at at that point, like, 
you know, something's being 

578
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,280
changed last minute in the 
studio. 

579
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,440
When it comes to music of this 
technically proficient nature 

580
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,199
and technically challenging 
nature, God, I mean changing one

581
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,880
thing changes the flow of an 
entire cadence of vocals. 

582
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,639
Yeah. 
And it wasn't like, like I 

583
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:32,159
mentioned, like they wrote about
3 songs prior to this that were 

584
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:36,840
ready, but they are essentially 
like Chris and Ben are doing 

585
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,320
like four or five hour days just
kind of like writing, hashing 

586
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,719
out the material. 
And I know there's like stories 

587
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,600
of bend bend, like, kind of like
yelling at like Chris, like, you

588
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,199
know, it's got to be faster or 
like, I think there was even a, 

589
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,000
you know, like a book on like 
almost like African or like 

590
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,880
tribal beats. 
And he's like here you got to 

591
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,200
learn Like I can't. 
He's like, no, you can learn it 

592
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,240
and you're going to learn it. 
But yeah, they're really just, I

593
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:11,120
think it's the drive of Ben to 
kind of like get this these 

594
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,840
songs hashed out and you know, 
there's you only have so much 

595
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,080
time to to lay these down in the
studio. 

596
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,400
I think it ends up even being 
faster in the studio the way 

597
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,240
they recorded it, which is crazy
to say. 

598
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,240
It is a very fast record 
obviously, but to to be that 

599
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:34,440
proficient and and technical in 
your ability to get some of the 

600
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,320
shit down live. 
Is insane. 

601
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,600
And and to say that you're 
challenging Brooke, you're 

602
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,080
challenging the drummer who went
on to become one of the most 

603
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,840
proficient drummers of this kind
of era and sub genre. 

604
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,520
Everybody knew who Chris Penny 
was, you know, drum mags, that 

605
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,400
sort of thing. 
And it was based off of his 

606
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,800
tenure with this band. 
And Chris is a very good 

607
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,080
drummer. 
That's an understatement. 

608
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,840
And the fact that you've got, 
you know, this driven 

609
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,840
individual, Ben Wyman, who's 
like, hey, that thing you're 

610
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,960
doing with the China and the 
crash, flip it, do it faster, 

611
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,720
turn it upside down. 
And Chris is just saying you 

612
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,040
can't do that. 
He's like, fucking yes, you can.

613
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,680
Like, who says you can't do it? 
Which is, you know, I, I think a

614
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,880
lot. 
I think what goes into a lot of 

615
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,920
the music we all enjoy, which is
there are no rules that you 

616
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,960
know, rules are only what exist 
in your head that you put on to 

617
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,360
it. 
Even though we're told that 

618
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,560
there are rules to everything 
and something, an album such as 

619
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,440
this just shows that rules are 
out the window. 

620
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,520
Every everything is on the 
table. 

621
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,000
What can we do? 
You know, we've already been hit

622
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,640
with these other hurdles, you 
know, these tragedies. 

623
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,520
You know, we're having trouble 
recording this thing. 

624
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,440
We've got a new member now. 
We're going to make sure this is

625
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,560
the best performance we can give
them, you know? 

626
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,760
And sometimes that even means 
antagonizing your vocalist with 

627
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,200
pictures of his ex, significant 
others in in the vocal booth. 

628
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,520
That's some Ross Robinson shit, 
like Ross would like, and some 

629
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,160
of those old, like early new 
metal records that he did, he'd 

630
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,280
he'd like berate the the band, 
throw shit at him, like just 

631
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,160
piss them off, scream at him. 
It's like OK. 

632
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,320
This will help, Yeah. 
Just to, to kind of paint the 

633
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,760
picture a little bit more too, 
with the themes of the record. 

634
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,280
I, I never really knew. 
I I calculating Infinity, just, 

635
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,440
I think even relapse was like, 
oh, that's like a mathematical 

636
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,200
thing That sounds neat. 
Like, that's cool. 

637
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,400
And it Buzz Lightyear, OH. 
Yeah, dude, 2 Infinity beyond 

638
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,280
brother. 
But it, you know, it has more to

639
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,080
do with just like relationships,
right? 

640
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:51,000
So I, I think if I can dumb my 
way through this, it's like, you

641
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,880
know, you say that, oh, we're 
going to be together forever, 

642
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,040
but you know, most relationships
have like an expiration date. 

643
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,600
So you're trying to calculate 
Infinity. 

644
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,000
What does that actually mean? 
I, I believe it was, you know, 

645
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,680
to, to say Brian had some 
minimal contributions may not be

646
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,760
exactly correct because I 
believe he did coin the phrase 

647
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,800
calculating Infinity for the 
record. 

648
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:19,600
So there's that. 
We also have producer Steve 

649
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,280
Evitts, the recording at, you 
know, Trax E. 

650
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,440
He's a very particular producer 
for records. 

651
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:28,840
Brian, I believe found that out 
very quickly. 

652
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,080
He was pretty like strict as far
as like what, what takes, what 

653
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,600
he would expected or what he 
wanted to hear out of the 

654
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,240
performances. 
I, I think maybe at this point, 

655
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:43,440
I mean, I hope I, I think it, it
did change later on, but Brian, 

656
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,480
maybe he took it a little 
personally, like, hey, man, 

657
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,440
what's with this guy? 
I think he fucking hates me. 

658
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,040
He's like, Oh no, that's just, 
that's just Steve, man. 

659
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,360
Steve, you mentioned earlier, 
hey, do we get Steve to play 

660
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,800
bass? 
I, I believe he did play a 

661
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,280
little bit of bass on this as 
well. 

662
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:04,000
So when, you know, maybe Ben's 
hands just we're probably, I 

663
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,960
mean, you're playing all these 
fucking guitar parts and then 

664
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,720
you're playing bass. 
I'm sure it's just like hey 

665
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:11,200
please, please take this for me.
Yeah, just please, please do 

666
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,000
something. 
Please help me glue all this 

667
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,000
together. 
On top of all that, we didn't 

668
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,320
talk about how long they were 
actually in the studio for this.

669
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:24,200
You know, it's 8 songs. 
Ultimately it's over a span of 

670
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,200
three months, but it ends up 
being done in roughly 14 days, 

671
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,960
which is, you know, it spread 
out over three months or was it 

672
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,120
114 day session, which I doubt 
it was probably spread out. 

673
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:43,480
But nonetheless, I would say 
that those 14 days in that time 

674
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,440
frame, it was probably I'd say 
10 to 12 hour sessions at the 

675
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,960
very least knowing these guys. 
And it even seems like some of 

676
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,960
the songs weren't entirely 
finished until they got into the

677
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,720
studio. 
Yeah, it says. 

678
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,200
I believe in our notes that like
they had eight songs finished. 

679
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,400
And three or four of them were 
written during the brakes of, 

680
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,600
you know, that in between, in 
those months. 

681
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,480
We'll talk about this more on 
the record. 

682
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,960
But there are definitely a lot 
of like, electronic, textual, 

683
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,040
ambient, atmospheric parts on 
this record. 

684
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,400
They recorded this at Steve 
Evitt's apartment using a Roland

685
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,920
keyboard. 
I want to say I in my research, 

686
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:27,440
I think Chris Penny had gone to 
school at Berkeley or like some 

687
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,200
programming stuff. 
So I think that's where that 

688
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,320
would make the most sense to me.
But those are great. 

689
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,640
I think like if there's one 
thing that is, it's not weird 

690
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,840
because the the record in 
general is very weird. 

691
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,920
And I'm like, oh, here's just 
another thing, Like here's 

692
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,800
another thing that makes this 
record crazy. 

693
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,200
I love the kind of like 
transitional interlude songs 

694
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,480
from the record. 
It breaks it up nicely. 

695
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,680
And and when we say that they're
songs, they're actual songs, 

696
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,280
like they're linked. 
It's not just here's 10 seconds,

697
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,080
let's go on to this other 
extremely jarring thing. 

698
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,680
It's like they're some of the 
longer tracks on here, more 

699
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,920
progressive sounding tracks on 
here. 

700
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,560
Now, obviously we've talked 
about some of the production 

701
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,400
stuff that's going on here. 
One thing of note, you mentioned

702
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,960
Symphony X earlier, which is 
pretty hilarious in scope, but 

703
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,840
the guitarist of Symphony X, 
Michael Romeo or Romeo 

704
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,840
apparently was helping Ben track
guitars or solos during this 

705
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,160
period of time. 
And if anybody's a fan of that 

706
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,960
band, and I am, I'm ignorant to 
that band other than the name, 

707
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,160
but Symphony X, it's definitely 
a power metal band. 

708
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,960
And Michael Romeo is apparently 
a shredder unlike any other 

709
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,760
Ingvi Malmstein levels of shred,
that sort of thing. 

710
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,840
And like Ben's going in the 
track, his guitars and Ben's 

711
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,320
having an issue or some issues 
and some confidence problems 

712
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,360
like tracking these guitars, 
basically doing the thing where 

713
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,000
like, I'm so fucking stupid, I 
can't, can't figure it out. 

714
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,240
And Mike's just like, hey man, 
you doing well? 

715
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:04,200
It sounds great. 
Sounds great man. 

716
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,800
It's cool that they were I'm I'm
I'm assuming that it was like 

717
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,520
the Steve Evitt's connection 
obviously to like, hey, we got 

718
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,000
to finish some of these tracks 
up and we're running out of time

719
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,880
here. 
So why don't you hop over to 

720
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,360
this dude's studio will pump 
some of these out. 

721
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,640
So limited time to record. 
Didn't seem like they had a lot 

722
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,280
of time to mix it either. 
One one thing they mentioned in 

723
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,280
the decibel Hall of Fame article
on the final day of mixing, I 

724
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,520
guess they had like gone to a 
fast food restaurant nearby and 

725
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,120
they were eating and Adam Doll's
there and he takes like a 

726
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,480
ketchup packet and he like tries
chucking it at like Ben or Brian

727
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,520
or whoever. 
And they said it was almost 

728
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,320
like, you ever seen that movie 
bullet where it like where it 

729
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,520
like curves, Apparently it like 
curved in midair and hit like 

730
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,720
the tiniest fucking switch on 
the board or the computer. 

731
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,560
And it like, you know, basically
like shut everything down. 

732
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,400
Like they almost lost the entire
mix. 

733
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:11,520
And I guess thankfully Steve had
like saved the mix 15 minutes 

734
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,520
prior, so they're at least able 
to kind of like save a whole 

735
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,680
day. 
Just Oh my God. 

736
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,440
You know that room went silent 
immediately. 

737
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,440
Oh yeah, Am I going to, you 
know, guy in a wheelchair now? 

738
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,400
Everyone goes quiet and I know 
there's verbiage of like Steve 

739
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,760
flipping out like what the fuck 
just happened? 

740
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,360
Oh my God, you're don't tell me 
this happened. 

741
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Like, I could only imagine just 
the, there's no tension on the 

742
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,360
record anymore. 
It's all been funneled into that

743
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,480
room that's probably as big as 
this office I'm sitting in. 

744
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,800
And it's like, God, I hope we 
have this backed up. 

745
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,160
And apparently they did. 
But I think it was like a 

746
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,080
version of the album was backed 
up and there were still some 

747
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:57,760
things they had to actually go 
back in and. 

748
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,920
Oh, yeah, I, I think, yeah, 
thankfully he had saved it. 

749
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,360
But yeah, they they had to like,
maybe it could have been a lot 

750
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,400
worse, let's say that. 
Smart man that Steve Evit's. 

751
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,200
Yeah, save, save constantly. 
If I, if I know anything about 

752
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,680
editing, just save all the time.
Luckily now they just do like 

753
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,040
the program I use will just like
save in the background for me. 

754
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,240
So like you can access plenty of
different saves. 

755
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,840
But one other thing I wanted to 
touch on was the artwork, which 

756
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,120
I think is is classic. 
I think this band in general 

757
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,080
just has a lot of like really 
great designed artwork. 

758
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:38,480
Man. 
It's beautiful. 

759
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,320
You look at any of them and 
I've, I've basically got the 

760
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,960
catalog like sitting next to me 
over here and you look at all of

761
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,920
them. 
They're all their own piece. 

762
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,120
There's no kind of overarching 
theme. 

763
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,600
They're all their own pieces. 
Like you look at this album, 

764
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,040
this machine, our works is 
probably the most simplistic, 

765
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,880
but then you look at even albums
like Disassociation, which is 

766
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,800
their final release, and it's 
like everything is so 

767
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,280
eye-catching. 
Everything is so jarring, but 

768
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:13,400
this one has this very 
mechanical, very industrial, 

769
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,560
steampunk esque kind of vibe to 
it and it it literally it's just

770
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,520
tubes. 
Yeah, so the photos were taken 

771
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,120
by Paul Delia, I believe. 
And it's literally just like 

772
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,560
this old vintage record player 
that was like the the old ones 

773
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,160
that are like a chest, Sure. 
That was like Dimitri's mom. 

774
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,680
So they just kind of like took 
the top off of it and took some 

775
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,200
pictures. 
I I never really knew what it 

776
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,080
was at first. 
I was just like, oh, that's like

777
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,120
interesting. 
But yeah, I think they wanted to

778
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:49,240
go for a, a look that would kind
of like go against or like was 

779
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,720
kind of like a like a contrast 
to their sound. 

780
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,080
And I feel like that in general,
that band, this band is, it's 

781
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,760
kind of like that. 
Just their aesthetic in general 

782
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,440
is like, I don't think they were
looked at necessarily is like, 

783
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,560
who are these guys? 
Like these guys don't look like 

784
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,800
metal guys, but they play like 
some of the most intense 

785
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,600
abrasive shit you've ever heard.
Sure, and that's a that's a big 

786
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,280
point. 
That's a big point you brought 

787
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:14,880
up. 
This was during a period where, 

788
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,080
oh, these don't look like metal 
guys and obviously it's 20 plus 

789
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,480
years later and who gives a shit
about how somebody looks like? 

790
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,120
Just show me what you're putting
out right. 

791
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:31,360
But like to have have an image 
that isn't the most edgy, you 

792
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,720
know, that that doesn't make you
look like what you're doing. 

793
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:39,440
Releasing an album that sounds 
this way, that comes out in a 

794
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:46,360
period where heavy music's kind 
of at a weird peak in in like 

795
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,080
like even mainstream at this 
point with with what's going on 

796
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:57,440
there and releasing something as
jarring and as intense and is 

797
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,080
just there. 
There's no way that this album 

798
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,440
couldn't have ended up becoming 
something that changed the heavy

799
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,760
music world because a lot of 
people were going to find out 

800
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,400
we're taking notice. 
A lot of very prominent 

801
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,480
individuals were taking notice 
of this band. 

802
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,440
Even some of the bigger bands 
that I was just kind of alluding

803
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,400
to were taking notice of this as
well. 

804
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,880
And it's a what a fucking record
this thing is. 

805
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:30,120
And it's it's equal parts 
intense. 

806
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,520
It's equal parts. 
There's some silly moments on 

807
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,800
here, at least in my ear. 
Like shit that sounds like the 

808
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,680
Ren and Stimpy soundtrack. 
I was going to say, there's like

809
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,160
getting into this. 
I mean, there's, there's some 

810
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,120
fucking circus tent music that's
happening on here. 

811
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,080
Like straight up Pee Wee's 
Playhouse, dude. 

812
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,560
Yeah, Destro Secret has like, 
yes, total, like I'm listening 

813
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,080
to it. 
I'm going God, I did grow up 

814
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,440
watching her in and snippy a 
lot. 

815
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,000
Just all the jazz standards and 
stuff. 

816
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:02,080
I mean, there's a lot of just 
fuck it. 

817
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:04,000
Let's let's see what, let's see 
what can fit. 

818
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,120
Let's see how this is going to 
work on this record. 

819
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,440
You know, there's there's even 
moments where they'll, you know,

820
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,440
go from like a just the fastest 
fucking most intense thing 

821
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,040
you've ever heard into like 
almost like a weather channel 

822
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,200
jazz section, like, but it's 
awesome. 

823
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,920
It rules and it like, is that 
part coming back? 

824
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,160
No, we dirty did it. 
We're moving on. 

825
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:29,040
Like that's crazy. 
There are very few things that 

826
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,320
repeat on this record. 
You know, obviously like 43% 

827
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,160
burnt would be the most known 
repetition. 

828
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,040
Even it doesn't repeat the same 
way. 

829
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,560
It's it it's arguably the I 
would say this. 

830
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,600
I would say 43% Burnt and Sugar 
coated Sour, probably the most 

831
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,760
known tracks off of this record.
43% Burnt ended up being the set

832
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,600
closer I think up until the 
band's last show and even it 

833
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,360
being the most known song and 
arguably one of the longer kind 

834
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,440
of feeling songs on the record. 
It's got so much shit shoved in 

835
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:07,680
it that goes from Mr. Bungle to 
almost grind speeds to to all 

836
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,000
sorts of stuff like breakdown. 
There's no breakdowns on here, 

837
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,600
but they're breakdown esque. 
Parts It's a Dillinger 

838
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,880
breakdown. 
Yeah, like it's just scattershot

839
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,200
shit, as I mentioned earlier. 
And I, I, I'm going to kind of 

840
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,120
go on a bit of a tangent. 
Chris Penny is a fantastic 

841
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:29,160
drummer, and to understate the 
OR to sorry to underplay the 

842
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:34,280
value that he played to this 
band and its intensity, just 

843
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,800
purely showing that like, yeah, 
Ben, this is Ben's band. 

844
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,360
Ben has the mindset of where 
this band was going, but he 

845
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,240
couldn't have done these early 
records. 

846
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,760
I think without Chris Penney's 
drumming. 

847
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,240
You wouldn't have gotten the 
Dillinger sound without it. 

848
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,040
And 10 years after the band 
formed, here's some illusion of 

849
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,160
what's to come for roof worship.
Chris Penny went on to join 

850
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:01,320
Coheed And Cambria years later, 
and that's fucking wild. 

851
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,600
But on this record, he is just, 
he's my favorite part of this 

852
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,240
record. 
This is just as much a drum 

853
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:11,920
record as it is a guitar record.
You just mentioned Destro 

854
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,400
Secret. 
There are sections of that, like

855
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,800
the drumming on that song. 
Your mouth just fucking drops. 

856
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,360
Even some of the 4th grade 
dropout. 

857
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,960
Yeah, 4th grade dropout rules. 
Oh my God. 

858
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,680
Weekend Sex Change. 
That's a crazy drum song. 

859
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,280
That is that song. 
Let's talk about that one a 

860
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,400
little bit. 
I love my favorite parts of this

861
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,320
record are the synth stuff like 
all the weird like Carpenter, 9 

862
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,520
Inch Nails, Pure Angel Dust, 
Worship all over that song. 

863
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,440
There's there's a ton of like 
Faith No More like bungle 

864
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,280
influence, Absolutely. 
Kind of like break beat, like 

865
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,720
Amen break like techno part 
dude, like the back half of the 

866
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:57,520
song Prodigy. 
Yeah, like what are we doing? 

867
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,800
This is so cool. 
Just there's break beat drum, 

868
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,560
there's break beat drumming on a
few different tracks on this and

869
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,640
it's fucking nuts. 
Like Penny's penny's a fucking 

870
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,840
animal when it comes to any of 
this stuff and the digital stuff

871
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,280
that's going on in here. 
Like I'm going to call it, what 

872
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,200
is the pound sign track four? 
I'm not calling it hashtag. 

873
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,760
I'm not dating myself there. 
That sounds like a soundtrack. 

874
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,080
That sounds like it would be on 
the soundtrack to Turok. 

875
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:35,840
There are some very ominous like
sci-fi, Spacey, horrific 

876
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,960
sounding like like not just the 
interludes, but it does appear 

877
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,280
in like some of the songs too. 
But the interludes are great. 

878
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,440
Yeah, the pound sign track is 
great. 

879
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,560
Cynic worship on that track too.
Sorry, I didn't. 

880
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,640
Want to derail? 
You with that like that is pure 

881
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,680
cynic worship on that song. 
There's so many great, great 

882
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,560
pieces like that, stuff that 
like, I would kind of chuckle. 

883
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,000
I'm like, oh, this sounds like 
some of the sounds you might 

884
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,200
hear in like, Star Fox 64. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

885
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,000
And then you get to the more 
like intense things on here, 

886
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,560
right? 
Like the self-titled track. 

887
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,440
Come, come the fuck on. 
That's like that's cool because 

888
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,040
I loved how here we we've been 
going through most of the record

889
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:20,720
at like 1,000,000 miles a 
minute. 

890
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,440
Every song just hits you right 
in the chops, right the moment 

891
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,440
you turn on. 
Here's like the most like 

892
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:31,320
intimate, kind of like primitive
sounding like like guitar and 

893
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,440
bass. 
I'm sorry, guitar and and drum 

894
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,120
beat where it's like literally 
just palm mutes and you're just 

895
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:37,880
kind of like. 
A gnarly groove. 

896
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,080
Unga bunga like and then it just
it kind of rides on that for a 

897
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:43,800
while. 
I'm not to say that there isn't 

898
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,840
like different parts of that 
song either, but for the most 

899
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,920
part like that's like Chris's 
most like laid back performance 

900
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,200
I think. 
It's that one solid kind of off 

901
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,040
metered groove on that entire 
track. 

902
00:52:55,360 --> 00:53:03,160
But like clip the Apex, which is
arguably my my favorite vocal 

903
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,880
performance on the album, it's 
also got some of the like 

904
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,640
coolest grinding bass sound all 
over it. 

905
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,240
Like you can actually hear the 
bass cutting through on that 

906
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:15,160
track. 
I am I have a hard time with 

907
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,720
this record for one reason. 
I am not a fan of Dimitri's 

908
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:23,200
vocals on this record. 
It's probably just from the 

909
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,320
first record that I found the 
band on and then going that 

910
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:27,800
route. 
But vocals are a big selling 

911
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,240
point for me on any record. 
I can hear a record that's got 

912
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:32,720
some of the best music of all 
time on. 

913
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,920
If the vocals are even slightly 
off, I'm like, I can't because 

914
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,560
it's such a center point to 
music. 

915
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:44,120
But this has a line in it. 
Clip the Apex where it sounds 

916
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,280
like Demetrius screaming through
gritted teeth. 

917
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:52,360
That's just like, oh, OK, He's 
extremely upset. 

918
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,240
And I enjoy that so much. 
And I talked to our friend Pat, 

919
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,600
and I was like, you know, it's 
not, this isn't my favorite 

920
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,920
record by the band. 
And I explained to him why. 

921
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,720
And he said, you know, what I 
enjoy most about that record is 

922
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:10,280
it just sounds like you couldn't
have had that record with Greg. 

923
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,920
I think it would have only 
worked with Dimitri. 

924
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,720
And they're kind of learning. 
They're figuring out what they 

925
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,480
want to sound like. 
And Dimitri set the groundwork. 

926
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,000
But it also is like Dimitri's 
angry for the sake of being 

927
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,040
angry, as opposed to being angry
and having all of these other 

928
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,400
emotions that go along with it. 
This is sorry. 

929
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,640
The emotions reflecting the 
vocal sound, I should say. 

930
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,680
I I think if if this this record
is intense to me, like the 

931
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,440
vocals are are very fitting of 
that. 

932
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,960
I think they there's so much 
going on. 

933
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,760
I feel like you could you could 
look at this as just like more 

934
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,880
of like from an instrumental 
side of things. 

935
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,360
I do think the instruments to or
I'm sorry, I do feel like the 

936
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,560
vocals work to me on kind of 
like an instrumental level. 

937
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,200
Like it is more or less just 
kind of screaming throughout the

938
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,560
record. 
There are some like spoken word 

939
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,160
parts, although like one of my 
favorite parts on the record 

940
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,680
vocally is that like kind of 
group chant at the end of the 

941
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,040
Destro Secret Wits, like Sundrip
Devil scratch out my eyes or 

942
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,160
whatever. 
That's that's an intense fucking

943
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:18,840
line. 
It's intense part. 

944
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,400
So I think for me, for me, it 
didn't like ruin the record. 

945
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,560
I, you know, like Greg's a very 
great vocalist. 

946
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,360
I think, you know, he definitely
tried to take what, you know, 

947
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,880
Dimitri was doing when he 
ultimately joined the band while

948
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,920
also trying to find his own kind
of like footing with them. 

949
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,040
But yeah, I think they they work
for me. 

950
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,240
I don't, I don't necessarily 
have a problem, but I I do see 

951
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:45,120
where like yeah, if the vocals 
don't work, then it's kind of 

952
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,480
hard to latch on to the record 
completely for sure. 

953
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,880
You know, and, and listening to 
it, listening to it to, to get 

954
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,440
ready for the episode and get 
primed for it. 

955
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,880
Obviously, I have a much new 
appreciation. 

956
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,000
I'm older. 
I can appreciate things for many

957
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,480
different reasons other than 
just finding that if if the 

958
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,840
vocals are the one big selling 
point on this record, you're 

959
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,360
probably listening to it for the
wrong reason. 

960
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,720
Right. 
You know this is the this is. 

961
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:09,840
Not a melodic record. 
Yeah, this is the. 

962
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,960
The guitar Ben Ben's playing on 
this for him to I guess this is 

963
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,480
what's just so like fascinating 
to me about the story of this 

964
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,600
record where, you know, he was 
more of like, well, I'm take I'm

965
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,840
going to take what Jon has all 
these crazy idea Jon has and 

966
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:28,360
kind of like I'm going to rein 
him in a little bit. 

967
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,360
And now having to almost kind of
play to the other side of that, 

968
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,960
like, OK, how can I kind of come
up with my own crazy idea? 

969
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:39,800
So like the the skill level 
getting that much better in a 

970
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,880
very short amount of time and 
writing, you're pretty much 

971
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:49,760
arranging like everything on 
this record to AT like this is a

972
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,080
bad pun, but it sounds very 
calculated and but but the way 

973
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,240
the guitar is played, it is like
I mentioned before, it is so 

974
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:02,640
less of a like here's a riff, 
here's a part, blah, blah, blah.

975
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,240
It is a conversation. 
It is a voice in itself. 

976
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:12,200
Like it is, it is both like so 
skillful and technical, yet it 

977
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:17,520
is so like organic and just 
seems like so like, like it's 

978
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:19,640
like jazz, right? 
There's no like structure to it.

979
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,680
It's all just like, let's see 
where this goes. 

980
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,680
I don't know where it's going, 
but we're going to get there. 

981
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:28,680
And it's just all of these 
starts and stops and like, like 

982
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,680
scale runs that like last for a 
bar or two and then we're moving

983
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,080
on to the next thing. 
And like the tone of like maybe 

984
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,680
the more like driving kind of 
chunky parts or like, it's, it's

985
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,320
really insane. 
And like, I know he's like, I've

986
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,160
read interviews where he's like 
a very humble guy. 

987
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:45,720
He's like, I'm just whatever, 
blah, blah, blah. 

988
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:51,440
I mean, truly one of the the 
best guitar players in extreme 

989
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,320
music like in in this century. 
I think like I can't think of 

990
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,680
anyone who hasn't maybe taken 
something from him in some 

991
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,320
capacity that if you started a 
band post 2000, like you've 

992
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,720
certainly like taken a a note 
from Ben Wyman. 

993
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,480
I I would even say this too, 
like there's a whole, there's a 

994
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:16,800
whole subgenre of this style 
that is done. 

995
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:22,760
And sometimes when bands do 
that, fantastic results happen 

996
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,080
and sometimes it gets really 
watered down, right. 

997
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,920
And that's no fault of what's 
going, but it also just shows 

998
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,920
the influence of something to 
this nature and how many 

999
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:36,080
different levels it can hit. 
And much to what we discussed in

1000
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:42,840
like our our botch episode where
we were talking about like bands

1001
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,120
that were aping influence from 
botch. 

1002
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,560
I'm sure Dillinger had to play 
with a lot of bands that were 

1003
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,040
like, how many times can we play
with a band that rips off the 

1004
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,600
breakdown from 43% burnt right? 
You know, how many times can we 

1005
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,800
play with a band that, you know,
rips off variations on a 

1006
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,000
cocktail dress or or anything 
like that? 

1007
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,440
You know, Guy Kosowick from the 
Red Chord is a really great 

1008
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:05,640
quote. 
He's like, yeah, we've 

1009
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,200
influenced a lot of trash. 
And it's like, I'm sure the 

1010
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,200
sentiments read true. 
But to what you said about Ben, 

1011
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,600
I don't think there's isn't been
as inventive of a guitar player 

1012
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:23,240
as him that is came out of this 
this side of extreme music that 

1013
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,280
that you could really name off 
the top of your head. 

1014
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,360
Like he's up there with like a 
look Lemay for me, just being 

1015
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,520
able to create these set right, 
like create these sounds and 

1016
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,720
dissonant noise and and all 
sorts of stuff. 

1017
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,600
Like he's more, I think Ben's 
playing is more in line with 

1018
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,160
like the guys from Tomahawk or 
the guys from Bungle, which is 

1019
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,160
exactly, you know, an easy 
comparison to make now with 

1020
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,680
hindsight and all the years that
have been in between. 

1021
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,120
But you also see him now playing
in his primary band, which is 

1022
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,160
fucking Suicidal Tendencies. 
Yeah, isn't that crazy like. 

1023
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,880
Dudes out there just playing 
like crossover thrash and he's 

1024
00:59:54,880 --> 01:00:00,160
like, oh, this is a breeze. 
Like I'm not getting hurt, man. 

1025
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,080
This is awesome. 
But like. 

1026
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,440
It's a 30 minute record roughly.
Like, yeah, there's a there's 

1027
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,120
kind of some ambient noise into 
just a fade out that just 

1028
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,200
silence for a while and then 
there's like some dial tone shit

1029
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:18,200
at the end of variations of a 
cocktail dress and yeah, it's 

1030
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:19,800
like. 
Yeah, it sounded like when I 

1031
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,920
listened to it, it was like like
a distorted clock. 

1032
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,040
And then even there's like even,
it kind of even reminded me of 

1033
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,480
that early ringworm record with 
like some of the orchestration 

1034
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,520
at the very end with like, I 
believe it's the diary of Anne 

1035
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,560
Frank, the, the movie from like 
the 60s. 

1036
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,960
There's like a, a sample of that
in there as well. 

1037
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,360
There's also like, you know, 
tons of like different, as we 

1038
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,680
mentioned, textures and, and 
sense stuff, but there's like, 

1039
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:51,640
like samples kind of scattered 
throughout the record. 

1040
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,000
There's like screams and like 
almost sounds like people 

1041
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,760
talking on an intercom. 
And so it is just like this very

1042
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,920
densely layered record. 
And I think you could probably 

1043
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,200
Pete, like anytime you listen to
it, you're going to like hear 

1044
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,240
something new. 
But it's not to me. 

1045
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,120
It's not a it is not an easy 
listen. 

1046
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,040
I think this is like, it's a 
Sprint every time. 

1047
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,360
Like, you know, take a break in 
between because like I I, you 

1048
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,840
know, we listen to this a lot in
in preparation for this. 

1049
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,520
And you know, I, I feel gassed 
by the end of it, but it it's 

1050
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,840
like, yeah, it's awesome. 
You got to take a breath after 

1051
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,400
this record and I'm sure having 
to play these things live and 

1052
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:33,440
and do all this stuff is has to 
be just as wearing and grading 

1053
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,000
on you as well. 
But ultimately it becomes a 

1054
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:43,200
great centerpiece of extreme 
music for 26 years or 27 years 

1055
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,880
at this point. 
It goes on to be a genre defying

1056
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,520
record. 
It's considered one of the top 

1057
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:54,400
metal core releases of all time.
Being being such a lauded 

1058
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:59,040
record, landmark record for the 
genre, it's kind of like crazy 

1059
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,520
in hindsight now to like learn 
that the band had sold their 

1060
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,560
publishing rights to Relapse to 
get like a few extra $1000 to 

1061
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,040
finish the record. 
And from what I understand in 

1062
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,680
the research, it wasn't like 
they did a crazy amount of work,

1063
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:18,920
but I think they were just more 
concerned with finishing the 

1064
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,560
vision, finishing the record, 
making sure that the songs were 

1065
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:26,120
where they needed to be, which I
totally get like we worked thus 

1066
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:27,760
this hard. 
We've gone through all of these 

1067
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,880
hoops and and tragedies. 
We've lost members and you know,

1068
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:35,840
you want it to sound good. 
So it it's not like super 

1069
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,600
shocking to hear that like, Hey,
we're a a weirdo, like kind of 

1070
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,160
grinding metal core band. 
We'll just, we'll just get some 

1071
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,040
money and finish it. 
And you know, it does become 

1072
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,880
like this classic record that 
everybody talks about. 

1073
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:56,840
I think they received $75.00 for
or Brian, Brian Benoit says he 

1074
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,720
recalled receiving a single 
check for $75.00 in 2000, for 

1075
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,960
the record. 
Man, that's this was also during

1076
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,560
a period of time where record 
royalties were a big deal for 

1077
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,920
any band because this is when a 
point in time when like records 

1078
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,800
were supposed to be selling. 
This was like sound scan era 

1079
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,840
too. 
And the fact that they sold it 

1080
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:21,000
back to Relapse and Relapse is 
probably like, here's 2 grand, 

1081
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,640
go for it. 
And this was also during a 

1082
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,800
period of time when studio time 
was hella expensive. 

1083
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,240
You know, now it's like studio 
time's 25 bucks. 

1084
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,800
It's in my backroom. 
Or you can do it yourself. 

1085
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:40,360
I mean that just knowing that, 
knowing that you're spending 

1086
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,320
that amount of money trading in 
your royalties just to record a 

1087
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,200
probably a couple sounds or 
tidbits here or there or like a 

1088
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,960
vocal stab, you know, I'm going 
to put my swindle hat on and 

1089
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,000
just go like, could you not have
just could you have just not had

1090
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,720
those parts on the record? 
And like, right, I don't like 

1091
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,560
pocket the money a little bit. 
How do you know when it's done? 

1092
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:03,480
I I guess if if there's parts 
that you just you have to know, 

1093
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,120
it's just being that creative 
person where you like, I have to

1094
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,160
I have to be there. 
What can we do? 

1095
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,760
Why, Yeah, I don't know. 
But, you know, you think that 

1096
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,840
would be the end of it, the like
that kind of perfectionist 

1097
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,560
mindset. 
But, you know, kind of moving 

1098
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:23,080
ahead. 
Trey from Mr. Bungle becomes 

1099
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,520
introduced to the band somehow, 
maybe through some previous 

1100
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,600
material, and he invites 
Dillinger to come on tour with 

1101
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,080
Mr. Bungle. 
And so they're driving out from,

1102
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,360
like, New Jersey, like, cross 
country to like, get on this 

1103
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,200
tour, I'm assuming in, like, 
California. 

1104
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,640
And they're listening to the 
final mix of the record. 

1105
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:43,400
And they are not happy with it 
to the point where they even, 

1106
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,440
like, call Steve, like, during 
the trip. 

1107
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,840
And they're like, is there 
anything we can do to, like, try

1108
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:51,880
to remix this record before it 
comes out? 

1109
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,880
And there just wasn't any money 
left to fix it. 

1110
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:59,240
So you just have to put it out. 
Boys, it's it's gone like it 

1111
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:03,920
just it's over man just game 
over just deal with it just suck

1112
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,240
it up. 
But you know it is funny too 

1113
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,000
obviously perfectionism. 
You want you want your release 

1114
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:11,840
to sound the best it possibly 
could. 

1115
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,640
You want it to sound as good as 
you have in your head and 

1116
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,680
ultimately nothing is ever going
to sound exactly like you have 

1117
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,600
it in your head that's just 
that's a life that's 

1118
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,880
perfectionism right. 
You want everything to match 

1119
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,040
what is in here, and obviously 
Ben is very much a 

1120
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:29,800
perfectionist. 
The guys in the band wanted to 

1121
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,480
really something they were very 
proud of after everything 

1122
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,640
they've been through. 
They're even comparing it to One

1123
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:40,000
O 8's Threefold Misery, which 
again, more of a straightforward

1124
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:44,040
metallic hardcore record, but 
sonically they're wanting to 

1125
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:48,040
compare it to that. 
And you know, it's when you 

1126
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,000
start comparing yourself to to 
other albums and how those 

1127
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,760
listen to and the environment 
those are in, you're never going

1128
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,120
to be happy, right? 
It's not like you could put on 

1129
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,360
calculating Infinity and compare
it to, I'm going to say one of 

1130
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,720
the the largest records that 
released in 1999, Limp Bizkit, 

1131
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,360
significant other, like 
sonically, they're not going to 

1132
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,840
sound the same. 
One had millions of dollars 

1133
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,920
behind it and one had a budget 
of probably 15 grand, arguably 

1134
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,720
maybe a little bit more, but you
know, being unhappy and having 

1135
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,640
to make probably a 30 hour drive
in the van, just getting 

1136
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,600
progressively more upset. 
It's got to be like a dad with a

1137
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,080
family of 6, just like white 
knuckling it just to get the 

1138
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:35,640
Disney World. 
We're going back to Winnipeg so 

1139
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:38,240
but you know, even with all that
said, you know, the album comes 

1140
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:43,120
out in late, late September 99. 
Relapse Records, it's went on to

1141
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:48,320
sell over 100,000 copies and it 
was like the best selling band 

1142
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:52,880
on Relapse Records at the time. 
So I think the only band that 

1143
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:57,160
was able to beat that take a 
wild guess as to who beat that. 

1144
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,840
Oh no, I'm like on the game show
and like the answer. 

1145
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,640
'S right from I think the band 
that finally did it was when 

1146
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,360
Leviathan came out. 
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. 

1147
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,240
Yeah, I. 
Think they were the band to do 

1148
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:10,640
it. 
And it's like it took him six. 

1149
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,560
It took him five years to do it.
And like, that's a big deal, you

1150
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,360
know, 100,000 copies of a record
of this nature in this area, 

1151
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,760
Yeah, You know, compared to what
was going on in the outside 

1152
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,200
world, like nothing. 
But in this world, 100,000 

1153
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:27,960
copies. 
Touring with Mr. Bungle for one 

1154
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,520
of your first major tours, 
That's. 

1155
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:34,840
That's fucking something that's 
crazy to even think about. 

1156
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:40,760
And you know, knowing the type 
of performances this band was 

1157
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,440
putting on and the intensity 
that they had behind that. 

1158
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:48,080
Doing all this major touring, 
actually seeing some fruits of 

1159
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,960
their labor with an album that's
doing well. 

1160
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,680
You're touring with artists that
you look up to. 

1161
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,720
Getting to know these guys, 
understanding what they like 

1162
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,920
about your band and what you 
appreciate about their band. 

1163
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:03,520
Learning how to tour from bands 
that have done it for that 

1164
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,160
amount of time. 
Also also seeing too that bands 

1165
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,200
that are that weird are able to 
do much more. 

1166
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,360
I mean, Mr. Bungle's touring on 
the California record at this 

1167
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:14,440
point. 
This is 99. 

1168
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:18,160
You know that's a big fucking 
deal. 

1169
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:20,560
Big fucking deal to sell 100,000
copies. 

1170
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:25,680
With with all of this just kind 
of like running through a quick 

1171
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,120
couple things here. 
Dimitri does ultimately leave 

1172
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,319
the band. 
Maybe like within a year he 

1173
01:08:32,319 --> 01:08:35,560
wants to pursue art, 
photography, graphic design. 

1174
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:40,359
But I believe they've been, I 
mean, hell, they reunited with 

1175
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,399
him later on. 
It sounds like they've been on 

1176
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:48,880
good terms ever since then. 
It's funny, you know, through 

1177
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,160
this, they're kind of like 
looking for someone to fill that

1178
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,520
spot. 
And I, I think in the meantime, 

1179
01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:00,279
they had like, you know, Sean 
Ingram from Coles do a number of

1180
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:04,760
dates with the band, even get 
like Mike Patton to do. 

1181
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:07,439
They're, they have some new 
material. 

1182
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:11,800
They put out an EP together. 
But by that, but by the time the

1183
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:16,920
EP comes out, I think Greg, Greg
Pusiano had already been in the 

1184
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,319
band for about a year, 'cause 
they, from what I understand, 

1185
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:24,560
put out like a instrumental 
version of 43% burn. 

1186
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,720
And they were taking in like 
different like audition tapes 

1187
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,920
essentially from different 
vocalists. 

1188
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:37,120
And Greg actually bought this 
record on the tour from 

1189
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,640
apparently from Dimitri, like 
directly, you know, just 

1190
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,160
unknowing going to going to be 
this band's vocalist one day. 

1191
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,680
So it's kind of like a dude was 
a fan. 

1192
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,560
Love the record. 
Try it out, it's great. 

1193
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:54,000
Very like Rockstar kind of 
situation there. 

1194
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:58,200
Greg's favorite band. 
Greg's favorite record gets a 

1195
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:01,760
chance to join it on that demo. 
I actually watched an interview 

1196
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,960
with Greg and he said, you know,
I recorded a version that I 

1197
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,880
thought they would want. 
Then I recorded a version I 

1198
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:11,400
would do so that he sent 2 
versions back of that. 

1199
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,720
And it's like they heard the 
second one and went, Yep, we, we

1200
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,680
get it, you know, come on, let's
do this thing. 

1201
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,160
And you mentioned Dimitri still 
being cool with the band and he 

1202
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:24,520
was, Dimitri's been on good 
terms with that band the whole 

1203
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,800
time. 
Dimitri actually did a guest 

1204
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,760
vocal spot on the Ironworks 
record from 2007. 

1205
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,280
I believe it on the track Fix 
Your Face. 

1206
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:36,080
I think he was on. 
And you know, there's over the 

1207
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:37,920
years there's been lineup 
changes with this band. 

1208
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:42,120
Obviously Liam Wilson joins as 
permanent bass player around 

1209
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,600
2001, 2002 ish. 
Sometime in that era, you know 

1210
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:52,280
in there were six years or there
were five years in between Miss 

1211
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,120
machine, which came out 2004 and
calculating Infinity. 

1212
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,280
So a lot can happen during this 
period of time. 

1213
01:10:58,280 --> 01:10:59,800
So all of that kind of blends 
together. 

1214
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:03,880
They're touring off this record.
You know, they've they did the 

1215
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,880
EP with Patton, which I think is
fantastic fucking thing. 

1216
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:11,880
Like he, that guy's done so much
shit and the fact that he could 

1217
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,120
delve into this world a little 
bit too is really fun to think 

1218
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,720
about. 
He's one of those artists that 

1219
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,400
I'll always give kind of a 
chance on anything he's done. 

1220
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,440
Even the Mondo Cane record where
he's just singing Italian 

1221
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:28,480
standards and it's just, it's 
fun to see that, but it's also 

1222
01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:32,760
fun to see that someone they got
a vocalist in the band that 

1223
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,520
loved the band and knew what to 
do, but they also gave him the 

1224
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:41,080
freedom to do be himself and do 
things more in nature. 

1225
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:44,400
But also having a a color 
palette such as Dillinger Escape

1226
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,520
Plan to go, oh, there's so many 
different shades and hues and 

1227
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,520
the spectrum is so wide. 
I can do anything in this 

1228
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,720
fucking band. 
And I believe his actual debut 

1229
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,520
of the with the band was like 
CMJ Music Fest. 

1230
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,280
RIP Never got to go RIP. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1231
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:08,240
But but ultimately, you know, 
calculating Infinity went on and

1232
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,280
is a standard in the music 
world. 

1233
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:17,040
I think it's I think it's as 
important as a Jane Doe is in 

1234
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:20,600
the metal core world. 
It's an any top ten list of any 

1235
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:25,440
metal core albums or metallic 
hardcore or Matthew hardcore 

1236
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:27,080
records. 
You look at, you find it, it's 

1237
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:32,200
there, it's in the mix. 
And the band went on to continue

1238
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:36,640
down this path of being a weirdo
outlier of this world that they 

1239
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,560
live in and and occupy. 
But those are stories for 

1240
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,160
another day. 
All right, this is a part of the

1241
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:45,240
show we like to recommend some 
things, things we've been 

1242
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:47,880
checking out as of late. 
Just kind of coming off of the 

1243
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,960
the back of the EP we're talking
about the Dillinger Escape plan.

1244
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:56,440
Irony is a dead scene EP, which 
I listened to for the first time

1245
01:12:56,440 --> 01:12:59,040
just in doing research for this.
It's fun. 

1246
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,360
It's so good. 
I mean it's just Mike Patton 

1247
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:07,400
like just so naturally assumes 
the role like the like just 

1248
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:12,760
intense, like weird cadences. 
The, I mean the first song like 

1249
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:16,680
Hollywood Squares is so good. 
It it's a fun record. 

1250
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,920
It's like 4 songs. 
It's like less than 20 minutes. 

1251
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,760
I'm probably not the biggest 
Mike Patton fan, but the 

1252
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:28,000
appreciation that I have for the
art that he puts out in the shit

1253
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,400
that he does is so much fun. 
I was a huge fan of that Peeping

1254
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,440
Tom record that came out a long 
time. 

1255
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:35,760
Loved it, thought it was fucking
great. 

1256
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,320
But to know that he's like, 
sure, I'll fucking do it. 

1257
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,720
I'll kind of join your band. 
But anything that he's involved 

1258
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,720
with, you're like, this has a 
shelf life. 

1259
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaking of which, my partner's 
like a huge fan of the Aphid 

1260
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,720
Brother brothers. 
He just did like a an album with

1261
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,520
them and I was like, wait, what?
Like what do you? 

1262
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:56,080
Let's get Uncle back on the. 
Record. 

1263
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,640
I'm like, sure, I get like. 
I'll check it out like. 

1264
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,040
He played the Today show with 
him and he's got those Cooley oh

1265
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:05,120
braids. 
And I'm like, this is on 

1266
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:06,800
national TV. 
Yeah. 

1267
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,600
That this is a. 
But also like, dude, I I guess 

1268
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,600
like the The Avett Brothers, no 
ball. 

1269
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:14,240
I'm like Mike Patton and The 
Avett Brothers. 

1270
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,840
That's wild. 
I've seen live performances of 

1271
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:21,640
this dude just walking on stage 
with a ham sandwich just like 

1272
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,760
going at it, taking bites in 
between pissing in his shoe and 

1273
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:29,880
drinking it like he is a. 
He's as much a performance 

1274
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,400
artist as I think we're we've 
ever been able to see in this 

1275
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:38,120
style of music without it being 
purely from a confrontational 

1276
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:42,040
area of like, I'm not comparing 
Mike Patton to this person, but 

1277
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,360
of a Gigi Allen nature. 
That's just the shit you don't 

1278
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:50,720
want to see to Patton having 
this weirdness to him that's 

1279
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,680
palatable and accepted. 
And the fact that you're like, 

1280
01:14:55,880 --> 01:15:02,200
there's a, there's a savant or a
genius level musical ability in 

1281
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:06,400
him that's just like fits 
perfectly with this band. 

1282
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,080
And the irony is the Dead Scene 
EP is just fucking fun. 

1283
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:13,040
It's a good stop gap too, in 
between what's to come for this 

1284
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:14,720
band. 
Fantastic. 

1285
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:20,120
My other recommendation is going
to be a band I just became 

1286
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,240
familiar with through Brian Cook
of Botch and Russian Circles and

1287
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,760
Sumac and a million other bands.
The band is called Crouch and 

1288
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,400
their debut album was just 
released on March 20th of this 

1289
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,040
year. 
It's titled Breaking the 

1290
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:38,920
Catatonic State. 
I am familiar with some of the 

1291
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:40,840
projects that these members are 
a part of. 

1292
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:45,840
It's a three piece from Belgium.
It's like sludgy post metal 

1293
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,800
hardcore. 
We got member current and former

1294
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:52,840
members of Oath breaker, rise 
and fall, living gate. 

1295
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,360
I'm in raw. 
There's a a couple other ones in

1296
01:15:56,360 --> 01:16:00,000
there. 
I'm I'm a huge fan of one of 

1297
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:04,960
those bands, but this is like 
this seems almost I think there 

1298
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,480
are definitely elements of like 
obviously like Omron's post 

1299
01:16:07,480 --> 01:16:10,120
metal and like they have a lot 
of different things going on. 

1300
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:15,600
This is really fun. 
This is like if Crowbar like 

1301
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:20,520
played noodle riffs. 
Like it's like they kind of 

1302
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,120
mentioned a few things here. 
They mentioned some of the 

1303
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,880
earlier stuff being more rooted 
directly in sludge, but then 

1304
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,080
they kind of talked about on 
this one, they were more in the 

1305
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,400
kind of like progressive side of
the 90s where it's like they're 

1306
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,840
citing Burnt by the Sun and 
Botch and Coalesce. 

1307
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:40,240
So tons of fun, like not a slog.
You get through it. 

1308
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:41,760
And I immediately played it 
again. 

1309
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,360
Definitely a fun listen and and 
definitely something you should 

1310
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,480
check out. 
My recommendation this week is 

1311
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:56,680
the second demo or the unveiled 
EP by the solo black metal 

1312
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,800
artist at Angel or Angel. 
I was a big fan of their release

1313
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,600
from last year, the Veiled by 
Woe EP and that was much more 

1314
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:08,360
primitive sounding and and very 
like aggro. 

1315
01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:12,240
And this has so the the 
progression from that to this is

1316
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:14,720
insane. 
And this person's really young 

1317
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,680
and they get it. 
They know what they're doing. 

1318
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:23,360
Yes, they are the son, a very 
prominent member of the second 

1319
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,560
way black metal world. 
If you don't know, you do the 

1320
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:29,320
research on yourself. 
There's no reason to for that 

1321
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:32,680
this young man to live in their 
father's shadow at all. 

1322
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,120
You can hear it in his voice. 
It's there. 

1323
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,360
But this is really fun. 
This is very articulate sounding

1324
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:41,640
stuff. 
It's very it's just bombastic in

1325
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,000
the best way possible. 
And if this is a demo, I can't 

1326
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,480
wait to hear like the fully 
produced thing. 

1327
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:51,720
But it is the IT is a demo it, 
but it's called the Unveiled EP.

1328
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,120
At the time of recording this we
heard about the unfortunate 

1329
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:59,840
passing of Bo looters from 
harm's way and hard lore. 

1330
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:07,040
I have kind of mentioned like 
the year like the early like 20 

1331
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:11,320
tens as being like a pretty 
pivotal kind of like era for me 

1332
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:13,720
and getting into like especially
hardcore music. 

1333
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:19,840
Big fan of like we can nachos 
and harm's way definitely being 

1334
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:24,040
another one kind of being from 
the Chicago suburbs was like 

1335
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,600
very influential on me. 
I remember sitting in a friend's

1336
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:32,880
living room, I think it was like
2013, the Blinded EP Mind 

1337
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,840
Control that video had come out.
And then to find out it was, 

1338
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:39,960
what is it? 
Max Moore, who ended up going to

1339
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,480
the same college, Western 
Kentucky. 

1340
01:18:41,480 --> 01:18:49,000
And I knew some of my friends 
and being able to see them over 

1341
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:54,480
the handful of years, you know, 
in like, like New Albany was 

1342
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:56,400
like, I think the first time I 
got a chance to see them, 

1343
01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:00,160
Nashville, I traveled back home 
to Chicago several times to see 

1344
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,120
them. 
Even living back in the area, 

1345
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:04,040
I've gotten to see them so much 
more. 

1346
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:09,840
And the guy had riffs. 
I loved his vocal performances 

1347
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:12,520
in kind of like playing off of 
James. 

1348
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:18,880
And then also, you know, doing 
hard lore, which I think there's

1349
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:22,440
no understatement. 
It's like a massively important 

1350
01:19:22,440 --> 01:19:24,960
podcast for modern hardcore 
right now. 

1351
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:31,240
I think it's done such an an 
amazing job at like getting 

1352
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:35,200
people into this genre and like 
talking about extreme music and 

1353
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,440
hardcore music. 
And, you know, Bo was, you know,

1354
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:40,040
straight edge and and live by 
that. 

1355
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,360
Yeah, just definitely a bummer. 
I'm I didn't know him 

1356
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:45,160
personally. 
I met him. 

1357
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,880
I I bugged the shit out of him a
couple times and he was always 

1358
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,400
very nice and personable when I 
talked to him. 

1359
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,760
But you know, I know that there 
are a lot of people, especially 

1360
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,320
his bandmates, friends and 
family that are, are hurting. 

1361
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,760
So I definitely thoughts go out 
to that, those people and Bo. 

1362
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:09,200
I think the respect and 
influence of Harm's Way is felt 

1363
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:15,840
more now when it comes to modern
hardcore because bands had to 

1364
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:19,240
walk so others could run. 
And you look at a band like 

1365
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,880
Harm's Way and, and Twitching 
Tongues and, you know, you look 

1366
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:27,520
at like, even like a gate 
creeper, right, Which we 

1367
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:29,760
mentioned, which is kind of 
still in the same world. 

1368
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,080
You know, a lot of those bands 
are very influential because 

1369
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,960
they showed that, oh, younger 
bands can do this thing and 

1370
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:38,760
become bigger. 
And you know, hardcore is not 

1371
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:42,880
just this small thing anymore. 
You know, I first heard Harm's 

1372
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:47,520
way off of the isolation album 
when I heard the tracks 

1373
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,400
scrambled and being a big 
machine head fan and like 

1374
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,880
hearing the industrial swirls 
and I immediately thought of the

1375
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:55,600
more things change and burn my 
eyes. 

1376
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,360
Like I I went OK, kindred spirit
here, like there's riffs of 

1377
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,040
plenty on this thing. 
And as you mentioned the the 

1378
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:06,280
Blinded EP is killer like HM2, 
like just grinding dismember 

1379
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:08,200
worship with all these 
industrial touches. 

1380
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,120
And even like, you know, to hear
even like what Trypticon, like 

1381
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:14,320
time G Warrior stuff being like 
thrown into the book. 

1382
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:17,880
So I'm like, oh, interesting. 
And so hearing that and hearing 

1383
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:22,320
a person like, you know, 
champion, maybe artist that you 

1384
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:28,240
may not have heard of, Sure. 
But yeah, I mean, if if I I 

1385
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:29,840
don't know, I feel like if 
you've listened to the show, you

1386
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,960
probably listen to Harm's way. 
But I love I love the more power

1387
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:34,400
violence stuff in the early 
days. 

1388
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,000
I love, you know, some of the 
more metallic hardcore 

1389
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:39,760
industrial sounds that they've 
got on over the years. 

1390
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:42,960
Listen to everything reality 
approaches, isolation, rust, 

1391
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,760
posthuman, common suffering. 
Listen to Bose older bands 

1392
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:51,040
convicted, few in the proud even
kind of did like AI know. 

1393
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:54,080
It was a very interesting 
project with I believe some 

1394
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,120
other harms more harm's way 
members called wolf note. 

1395
01:21:57,400 --> 01:21:59,520
He's in a straight edge band 
with some members of knock 

1396
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:00,880
loose, I believe called Weapon 
X. 

1397
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:04,920
So there's a lot there. 
Yeah, just if. 

1398
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:09,240
Reach out to your friends. 
Reach out to your friends, tell 

1399
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:11,360
the people you love that you 
love them. 

1400
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,280
And yeah, be there for one 
another. 

1401
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:16,320
So with that said, thank you so 
much for listening to this 

1402
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:18,560
episode. 
We'll be back next week. 

1403
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:20,920
And yeah, catch you next time.