1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:01,900 There is a QB software architecture. 2 00:00:01,900 --> 00:00:04,900 Gathering is the International Conference highlight for all 3 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:07,900 those working on Solutions structures in IT projects 4 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:11,700 primarily software Architects developers and Professionals in 5 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:15,100 quality assurance but also system analysts who want to 6 00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:17,200 communicate better with their developers. 7 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,500 A selection of well-known International speakers will 8 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,600 share their practical knowledge on the most important topics in 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,600 the state of the art software architecture. 10 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,800 The conference takes place online, from November, 14 to 17. 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,900 And we have a 15% discount code for you enter. 12 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:38,500 The alj underscore MP underscore 15 for 15 percent discount 13 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:42,100 become more aware of coaching, competencies and coaching skills 14 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,600 and realize that in order to be a more effective leader, you 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,800 need to be a coach done period. So what I want is leaders 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,800 managers directors senior execs. I think if you want to become a 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,300 better leader than I think one of your core skills not Go 18 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:02,800 skills but course go should be coaching skills. 19 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,100 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya with 20 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:13,500 Robin. And you're listening to the 21 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:16,700 technology, you know, podcast the show where I'll be bringing 22 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,900 you the greatest technical leaders practitioners and 23 00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:23,600 thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their Journey 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,300 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 25 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:31,900 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 26 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:35,100 personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:42,200 Hello, my friends. Welcome to the technology. 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,100 Now, podcast the show where you can learn about technical 29 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:48,100 leadership and Excellence from my conversations with great 30 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:50,900 thought, leaders in the tech industry, and today is the 31 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:54,300 episode number 105. If this is your first time 32 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:57,600 listening to tackle the journal, subscribe and follow the show on 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,300 your podcast app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. 34 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:04,000 And if you'd like to support my journey, creating this podcast, 35 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,400 subscribe as a patron. On at technology. 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,400 No dot f / Patron. My guest for today's episode is 37 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,200 Bob gallon. Bob is the president and 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,300 principal agile coach at our gcg and a prolific writer blogger. 39 00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:21,600 And also a podcaster in this episode Bob. 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,400 And I discussed, many aspects of coaching and Leadership taken 41 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,700 from his latest book, extraordinarily bad ass age. 42 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:32,600 Our coaching Bob started by explaining the concepts of HR 43 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,000 leadership and age are coaching he shared about the Different 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,900 primary coaching stances and why he suggests that coaching is 45 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:42,500 really an essential core leadership skill. 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,700 Bob then went into details to describe the skills, required to 47 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:50,300 become a good coach such as asking powerful questions and 48 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:54,500 becoming powerful listeners towards the EM, Bob also shared 49 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:57,800 some tips that we can use for coaching up and for coaching the 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,400 middle managers, which in a way is like coaching the coaches, I 51 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,100 really enjoyed my conversation with Bob to me. 52 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:08,300 This is like Like a master class session on coaching and I learn 53 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:12,200 a lot and took many practical tips on how to improve myself, 54 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,200 especially to become a better leader. 55 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:17,900 And if you also enjoy listening to this episode, please help, 56 00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:20,900 share it with your friends and colleagues, who can also benefit 57 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:24,200 from listening to this episode. It is my ultimate mission to 58 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,600 spread this podcast to more people and I really appreciate 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,900 your support in any way towards fulfilling my mission. 60 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:34,000 Before we continue to the conversation, let's hear some 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,300 words from our sponsors. 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Actions with people who share 88 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,200 your interests head on over to skills method or calm to become 89 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,900 part of the tech community that matters most to you. 90 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:17,400 It's free to join and you will find it easy to keep up with the 91 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,700 latest tech Trends. Hello everyone, welcome to 92 00:05:22,707 --> 00:05:24,300 another new episode of the package. 93 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,000 You know, podcast today I have with me a guest someone called 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,600 Bob gal he's actually very experienced in the a gel 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,900 industry. He is well known as the coach of 96 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:37,500 coaches. So if you imagine a coach, this 97 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:39,900 is the coach of the coaches. So it's like Master coat. 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,300 So Bob has 20 plus years in the industry has so many 99 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:46,900 certifications. He builds Community, very 100 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:50,100 prominent thought leaders. He also writes a number of books 101 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:54,000 and he blocks a lot as well. Also, Bob is a podcaster. 102 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,500 So his podcast is called, Medicare is, so it's a podcast 103 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:00,200 about a gel. So today, I think we are going 104 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,600 to talk a lot about coaching specifically and I'm really 105 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,300 looking forward for this topic because I I really love for 106 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,300 coaching and I Aspire myself to help so many other leaders and 107 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:13,200 people as well to grow much, much better in their life and 108 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,300 their career. So Bob, thank you so much for 109 00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:16,900 your time. Looking forward for this job. 110 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Henry, thank you for inviting me. 111 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,600 It's a privilege to be here and I really appreciate it. 112 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,400 So I don't know if I'm a coach of coaches, but I try to coach 113 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,500 quite a few people, I try to share my experience. 114 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:30,300 So sometimes people trigger on the term agile, coaching or 115 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:33,600 coaching to me, it's just more mentoring and just helping 116 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,800 people in sharing my experience. So, I'm Excited to be able to do 117 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,400 that today with your audience. So Bob, I always like to start 118 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,700 by asking the guest to introduce themselves may be telling about 119 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:47,100 highlights or turning points in your career. 120 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:50,100 Something that is interesting for the listeners to know about 121 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,400 sure. So I'm about Kailyn, I started 122 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,300 out as a software developer at a time. 123 00:06:55,300 --> 00:06:57,100 Before most of you were born, I'm kidding. 124 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:00,900 Most of the you were born. So in the early 80s, my first 125 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:04,000 job out of college was in 1980 as an assembler. 126 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,100 Programmer, if anyone Ever heard of the worship assembler? 127 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,600 I did that for a number of years. 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,300 I worked on mainframes actually, my first job out of school was 129 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:14,900 at spare, univac and building ibm-compatible mainframes. 130 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:18,000 I'm not going to tell you every week in my journey, but fast 131 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000 forward, as some software developers. 132 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,200 Do I was a reasonably good software developer and 133 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,000 architect, and people started promoting me as a leader. 134 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,900 In a journey, became a manager after a few years and then a 135 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:33,800 director at senior leadership roles in the mid 90s to late 136 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,900 90s, I discovered For battle. The key for me was extreme 137 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:39,800 programming at the time and scrum. 138 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:43,100 I was an early adopter of the extreme programming at loosen at 139 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:47,800 Bell, labs around 2000 2001, but before that, in the mid-90s, I 140 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,600 have discovered scrum based on the white paper that schwager 141 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,900 and Sutherland or put together that the time. 142 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:56,800 I was lucky enough that I was a leader and I pivoted into agile 143 00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:00,700 because I had influence because I had teams are reported to me, 144 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,700 I could make them do Agile or encourage them to do Agile. 145 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:06,800 So I would experiment I am a A consummate experimenter. 146 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,300 So I was experimenting with scrum. 147 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:10,500 I was experimenting with XP practices. 148 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,800 So I'm an early adopter that led into coaching not as a decision, 149 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:18,200 but as a leader, I've always been a people oriented leader. 150 00:08:18,500 --> 00:08:21,700 You know, I suppress my ego and I realized that technical 151 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:25,200 leadership isn't about me. It's about the teams and how am 152 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,000 I sort of building and encouraging and guiding teams to 153 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,100 do Kick-Ass products basically and do great work. 154 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,400 Magill was always a toolbox or a way. 155 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,600 Facilitate that. So my style was complimented, I 156 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,900 didn't adopt agile, I merged with it because agile principles 157 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:45,400 really dovetails nicely with my leadership style. 158 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:50,200 That was in Me, Maybe late 90s, early 2000s around that time at 159 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,400 maybe if out 2005, I wrote my first book, it was on an agile 160 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,200 book, James called software and games. 161 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,800 It was a traditional waterfall, how to get things out the door 162 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,900 book, then I start by actual Journey. 163 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,400 My last per job was about 12 years ago. 164 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,400 I formed a company early on and I did part-time consultant. 165 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:07,100 Ting. But I was always hitting the 166 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:09,600 trenches leader. Then about 10 years ago. 167 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,700 I decided to stop being an Insight leader and more of an 168 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:16,100 outside consultant and I've been doing that ever since. 169 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:18,800 Thanks for sharing, AJ needs a list. 170 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,700 Exciting to talk, with early adopters of certain 171 00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:25,300 methodologies, things like XP, a gel, and things like that. 172 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:26,900 So always there's a lot of insights. 173 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:30,000 I hope we can also dig deeper into this compositions. 174 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,700 You measure something about a gel leadership. 175 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,300 I think this is something that I want to ask deeper. 176 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,000 So what does it mean to be an agile? 177 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,800 Leader? We could spend hours, probably 178 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,100 talking about that. I teach some leadership. 179 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,600 I'm aligned with the scrum Alliance and I do something 180 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,400 called the certified agile leadership. 181 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:50,300 I teach that I'm privileged enough to be a teacher of what 182 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:53,700 they call their cow courses, which is a leadership sequence. 183 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:57,000 So, from that point of view, one of the things that we try to key 184 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000 on, it's not a definition, but one of the central things about 185 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,300 agile leadership is, it's not an outwardly tracing mindset. 186 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:06,400 It's an Amber Lee facing First mindset. 187 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:08,600 What that means is lead yourself first. 188 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:12,200 So, forget leading other people. What are you doing to master 189 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,300 yourself? Let's use emotional 190 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:17,200 intelligence, Henry, are we improving our emotional 191 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,900 intelligence, AR, riba improving our self-awareness. 192 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:23,500 I hope this makes sense. So think of it as an inside-out 193 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,300 job. I think so many leaders. 194 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:29,200 They look at leadership as being an outward thing I have to tell 195 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,300 people what to do, it's not about me. 196 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,000 A lot of leaders, don't walk their talk, they'd tell people 197 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,700 to do things with their not. King their own top. 198 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:41,000 So I think a central idea and agile leadership is be agile on 199 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,600 the inside. First, don't tell people be 200 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,100 agile, show them what it looks like a safety for example, to 201 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,100 experiment and to fail and to learn Henry. 202 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:53,200 No, I'm saying. So are you doing that yourself? 203 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,500 And are you role-modeling outward? 204 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:59,300 I actually think heart of a technical leader or any leaders, 205 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,400 one of their purse possibilities and one of the more powerful 206 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,600 coaching stances that they can have is how Are they showing up 207 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,400 like their role model? I hate to tell you, I would 208 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,500 people around you're watching you as a leader. 209 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,600 They listen to what you say but they watch what you do. 210 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,800 And what you do is so much more important than what you say. 211 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,300 So the good news there is if you are a great role model from the 212 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:23,700 inside out that can have a tremendous influence. 213 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:26,300 So that's something we talk a lot about in the class. 214 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:29,900 For those who listened a jelly that doesn't mean you are a 215 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:33,600 leader who adopts, a certain age of practice of methodologies is 216 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,300 not about adopting scram and know. 217 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,400 Inside out about scrum and then be able to deliver. 218 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,800 So it's about, like Bob said, leading from the internal first, 219 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,200 be agile, internally. And then you also can lead at 220 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,000 the people from there. So it's not from external first, 221 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,000 but it's actually the know, it's funny, Henry, people come to my 222 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,300 class and they want to hear scrum and kanban and XP, and 223 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:57,300 they want to hear safe and scaling Frameworks. 224 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:01,200 And I hardly ever mentioned those things in that second day, 225 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,200 they're like, Bob, I thought you were gonna teach us about scrum 226 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,700 leaders and I'm Like I'm sorry. No it's that mindset thing. 227 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,300 We're going to explore the mindset. 228 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,400 It doesn't mean that the scrum or kanban isn't important but 229 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,800 they're much easier to me their tactical, they're just methods. 230 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:22,000 What's much harder for people to get? 231 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,500 I think is the mindset of the agile leader and you nailed it. 232 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:28,300 I'm Glad You observe that it's not even intentional at this 233 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:31,300 point, it doesn't matter. I mean we shouldn't be talking 234 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:33,700 about agile leaders in mentioning Frameworks. 235 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,600 It's just not that relevant. Thanks for straightening that 236 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,400 up. So Bob you also wrote a book 237 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,700 titled extraordinarily bad as a gel coaching has recently 238 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,200 published. So tell us more about why you 239 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,900 wrote this book and what about the badass in the title? 240 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:53,400 So I don't know if you've ever written a book but anyone who 241 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,800 has at least for me, a book is a lot of work. 242 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,600 So I need energy to start a book. 243 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:03,300 I need something that's bugging me or something that I'm 244 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:05,300 passionate about. I've been coaching. 245 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,900 Being an agile coaching for decades. 246 00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:11,000 Basically, what I've noticed lately is the world of agile 247 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,600 coaching, Everyone's an agile coach. 248 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,700 If you look on LinkedIn or in Social Network, everyone has 249 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:18,600 agile coaching in their title and it just bugs be. 250 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:21,100 It's like what the ha it's like a buzzword. 251 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,000 And so, to me, agile coaching is a profession, it's a craft. 252 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:29,500 So one of the reasons I wrote the book and I had energy around 253 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:31,500 writing it, not that I'm going to solve that problem. 254 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,300 But so, but I wanted to do something to raise the bar. 255 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,600 Wave from mediocrity and agile coaching because I think 256 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,100 coaching makes such a difference. 257 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:43,300 It can be potentially A Difference Maker in teams and in 258 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,800 organizations and cultures, we shouldn't trivialize it. 259 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:48,700 So that was the Genesis behind it. 260 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,500 Now it's still a lot of work. So along the way, I burned out a 261 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:54,400 little bit, I'm like, oh my gosh, but we must be finished. 262 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,100 Soon the good news I partnered with a few people to co-write it 263 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,300 with me and that was a new project for me. 264 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:03,000 I had not done that before so that was kind of cool. 265 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,100 The badass to me is indicative of Of what I'm talking about. 266 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:09,600 Raising the bar and really moving from mediocrity to like 267 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,400 high performance or excellence in agile coaching. 268 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:15,000 So to me you're never done being a badass. 269 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:18,600 The other thing I wanted to communicate is that your journey 270 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,300 and agile coaching is never done. 271 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:24,100 I would argue your journey into agile leadership is never done. 272 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,900 If you stop and say, I am an agile leader or I'm a technical 273 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,900 leader. If you ever stop, you have just 274 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:34,500 failed from my point of view if you stop learning and growing 275 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:37,200 and challenging. Yourself that you've missed the 276 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,900 point and that's the same point to me. 277 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,700 Now, Henry, when I've added the title, with some people around 278 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:47,000 the world, maybe 50% of the people I pinged on the title, 279 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,200 they were like all we really like badass in the title and 50% 280 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,700 of the people were offended, or like, all my God, you know what 281 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,400 badass means? That's terrible. 282 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,400 So, I was stuck. I was almost done with the book 283 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,400 and I'm like, now, what do I do? Do I keep badass, you read parts 284 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,100 of the book ayat, sprinkled the word everywhere. 285 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,200 And had badassery and things like that. 286 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,500 So like do I change it? And then I thought for at least 287 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,800 a long weekend and I was really torn but I said you know what 288 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,100 the heart of the book is this notion of excellence and so I 289 00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:21,700 kept it in the title so I hope I don't offend anyone with it. 290 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,500 Thanks for saying this fun fact, Story the background why you 291 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:28,700 chose the title to me? I think that as a so it can mean 292 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:31,000 good rice, not something that always necessarily a bad 293 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,600 connotation. So you mentioned about a gel 294 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,900 coach these days. So many people, That in the 295 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,300 title and it's not just a job coach. 296 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,600 It could be like personal coach life, coach whatever, trainer 297 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,400 coach. But the first thing that I would 298 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,800 like to clarify with you since you have done it. 299 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,700 So many years, what is the definition of coaching? 300 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:50,500 Actually? So many people use the other 301 00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:52,400 terms, like, mentoring. What? 302 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,200 Are the difference? Actually, if there's any. 303 00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:56,200 So, what is your definition of coaching? 304 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,400 It's a good question. One of the things I anchored on 305 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,400 in the book, so people get confused. 306 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:05,200 Another reason I wrote the book is there's confusion. 307 00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:08,400 In Industry, there's something called professional coaching. 308 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,200 There's the international coaching Federation and they 309 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,700 have training and certification and it's a wonderful body. 310 00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:17,300 Professional coaching is sort of like counseling if you want to 311 00:16:17,308 --> 00:16:19,100 think about that. It's asking questions. 312 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:22,700 Basically, if you want to think about professional coaching, you 313 00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:26,300 never ever give anyone advice or you don't tell them what to do, 314 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:28,700 you help them to discover their Journey. 315 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:31,600 So there's the notion of professional coaching of asking 316 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,800 powerful questions. So that your coaching client, 317 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,300 whether it's Individual or a team, you could coach a group, a 318 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:42,100 scrum team, or whatever, you're asking questions and it's their 319 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,000 agenda. So, there's rules for 320 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,300 professional coaching agile. Coaching is a superset of 321 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:51,300 professional coaching. The model that I've anchored on, 322 00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:52,800 is something called the agile coaching. 323 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,100 Growth wheel. The agile coaching growth wheel 324 00:16:55,100 --> 00:17:00,400 has multiple stances or multiple postures or multiple instances 325 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,600 of like how do you show up as a coach? 326 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,800 One of them is professional coaching. 327 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,599 Is that makes Sense. So what I just described as 328 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,500 professional coaching, is a subset of agile coaching another 329 00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:12,700 subset. I'm going to call them Henry 330 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:17,400 stances or competencies so competencies and stances. 331 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,800 But I like the word stance because it's like a posture. 332 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,099 So, professional coaching is one posture. 333 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:25,200 You mentioned one, mentoring is another posture. 334 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,599 If I'm coaching people, I could Mentor them. 335 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:32,100 Another posture is training, I can teach them and they're 336 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,800 different to me. Mentoring is showing and 337 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,200 partnering. Earth may be apprenticeship to 338 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,900 me pairing. An apprenticeship is a mentoring 339 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,700 stance if you will, and that teaching is wrong, teaching 340 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,900 going through a class or literally directing someone with 341 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,900 knowledge. There's two more stances in the 342 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:51,600 wheel. Both of mentoring a teaching is 343 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,500 called guided learning. Another stance is facilitating 344 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,900 workshops facilitating meetings. Being a good facilitator, that's 345 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,900 an art in and of itself, is facilitating a meeting to a good 346 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:04,700 outcome. There's a myriad of tools and 347 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:07,700 nowadays. As Miro and facilitation boards 348 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:09,800 are wonderful ways. You can do it virtually. 349 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,200 So having being Artful there, another stance that was new to 350 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:20,100 the wheel is advising, providing advice or consulting or let me 351 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:23,100 dare, I say it telling someone what to do Henry, you know what 352 00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:25,400 I mean? Like, to think he'll do it this 353 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,900 way being a bit more prescriptive. 354 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,400 Can you see the challenge with an agile? 355 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,300 Coach is picking in service to the client in serving, whoever 356 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:36,900 you're coaching. What is their agenda? 357 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:40,100 But then showing up in a different stance based on what 358 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:42,400 they need. Now, I call it dancing in the 359 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,500 stances, how I think of it as dancing. 360 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,400 I'm not a dancer clearly, if you saw him the rest of my body, I'm 361 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,400 not a dancer. I'm not very Nimble, but I'm 362 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,200 mentally Nimble because in my mind, it's like dance with the 363 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,800 client. So I may start out with what 364 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,100 asking them questions. I might start out in coaching 365 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,100 stance, I hope this is helping and then if I determine that 366 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:04,300 they need to be taught something, then I would switch 367 00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:07,100 to teaching staff. It's if I see that the class 368 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,400 isn't Landing, I might switch to mentoring stands and show them 369 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,700 how to do it and then I might go back to professional coaching 370 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,400 and ask them, how did that go? How did it land for you and how 371 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,100 do I make it better? So everyone what I just did is 372 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,700 that was agile coaching in that. I switched stances. 373 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,600 If that makes sense in service to my client if that help. 374 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,800 Yeah. Yeah, suddenly, so, obviously, 375 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,700 I'm trying to make it less abstract Soul, you mentioned 376 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:36,600 about coaching stances things like Seeing guided learning 377 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,500 things like teaching mentoring leading. 378 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,500 Also I think leading people show them how to do it facilitating. 379 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,600 So thanks for sharing all the instances. 380 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,600 I have one interest when you mention in the beginning about 381 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,900 professional coaching, it's not necessarily just telling the 382 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:54,800 clients, but actually asking questions so that the clients 383 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,900 know how to solve their own problem. 384 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,200 It's not the coach agenda. So this I think is the probably 385 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,100 distinguishing character between a good coach versus a normal or 386 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:09,700 Bad coach tell us more how can lead us be more in this kind of 387 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:14,000 mode because I think leaders has very crucial role in every team 388 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,500 and their role. One of it is to coach not 389 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:18,300 necessarily always to make decisions. 390 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,300 How can a leader show in this kind of asking question mode 391 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:26,100 rather than always directing? I actually think that leaders 392 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,300 need to be agile coaches. Now, explain what I mean by 393 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:31,600 that? So one of the things, one of my 394 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,400 biggest regrets in the book is, oh, I have many regrets The 395 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,800 minute that you hit code freeze, the minute you hit Freese and 396 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,000 you publish a book at least for me, I reflect. 397 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,400 And I'm like, oh, I made some mistakes. 398 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,000 I wish I would have changed that. 399 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:48,400 So the title we talked about the title before it has a job 400 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,700 coaching in the title and it almost seems like the book. 401 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,400 If you look at it on the surface the book is focused to Agile. 402 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,900 Coaches Henry, I'm sure you read it that way. 403 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,500 Although this is a book for agile coaches and it's a big 404 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,500 mistake on my part. What I wish I would have done 405 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,400 somehow. How is communicated that this is 406 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,600 a book of coaching skills and I think anyone could benefit so 407 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,800 I'm not trying to turn leaders into agile. 408 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,600 Coaches. What I'm trying to say is be 409 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,700 aware of coaching, competencies become more aware of coaching 410 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:25,500 competencies and coaching skills and realize that in order to be 411 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:29,900 a more effective leader, you need to be a coach done period 412 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,400 and it's not a professional coach, it's an agile coach. 413 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,800 And what I mean by that is Becoming an agile coach by your 414 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,500 business card. But all of those stances are 415 00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:42,000 talked about. If you're serving the people in 416 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,600 your team, sometimes the right thing to do is not ask them 417 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:46,600 questions. Henry. 418 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,800 Does that make sense? What if they don't have the 419 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,400 answer? What if they don't know what if 420 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,200 they desperately need to be taught? 421 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,800 And you just keep asking questions? 422 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,200 We'll how do you think you should do that? 423 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,700 I call it death by a thousand questions. 424 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,600 So professional coaching is appropriate as long as it's the 425 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,800 right stance in the Situation to serve, whoever you're coaching. 426 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,200 So what I want is leaders managers directors, senior 427 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,100 execs. I think if you want to become a 428 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,800 better leader then I think one of your core skills. 429 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:21,500 Not technical skills, but course, go should be coaching 430 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:23,700 skills. If you look at the world in that 431 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:27,100 way, then the book could be very helpful and then the wheel is 432 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,600 very helpful because of its start, looking at yourself. 433 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,300 Like sometimes you have to lead in fact, if you looked at the 434 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:36,200 wheel Henry in the middle of the wheel, Is something called 435 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,900 self-mastery, doesn't that align with what we talked about 436 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:43,600 earlier that agile leadership or leadership is an inside-out job. 437 00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:47,200 It parallels that wonderfully. So if you want to be a better 438 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,700 Coach, it starts. By are you coachable? 439 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,700 Are you learning yourself? Are you a good role model? 440 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,500 I think there's a wonderful connection between coaching not 441 00:22:56,500 --> 00:23:00,300 agile, coaching the business card or the title, but agile 442 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:04,100 coaching competencies, and skills in a well-rounded way to 443 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:05,800 leadership effectiveness. Goodness. 444 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,800 So how do you start that? You look at the wheel, you 445 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,000 assess yourself, you assess your strengths. 446 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,700 I'm sure some leaders are stronger in some stances than 447 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:16,400 others. That's fantastic, assess your 448 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,300 weaknesses and then start to relentlessly improve yourself. 449 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,800 In fact, I would say it starts at you are a coach. 450 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,900 So anyone is listening to this in your technical leader, I have 451 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,400 some really bad news for you, whether you like it or not, you 452 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,100 are a coach. So suck it up. 453 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,000 Except that And now, if you are coaching people, you're not 454 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,500 coaching, algorithms your coaching people your coaching's 455 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,600 teams, your coaching peers and your coaching leaders at the 456 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,500 ecosystem around you, whether you like it or not, I mean, 457 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,200 you're coaching it just by showing up and role modeling, so 458 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,100 you're coaching even when you don't know it. 459 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:57,000 So, take control of that and become a better Coach become 460 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,500 curious about coaching, and I think that'll make you a better 461 00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:02,600 leader. Thanks for clarifying. 462 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,900 That so yes, when I saw the title of the book, I also 463 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,900 thought that this is going to be a book about a job coaching, but 464 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:12,200 when I read it, there's so many good things, the insights, how 465 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,900 to be a good code. It touch on about competencies 466 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:18,300 and skills and maybe this is also related to the a gel growth 467 00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:20,300 will that you mentioned. What are the some of the 468 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,900 competencies and skills that asks technically does need to be 469 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:28,600 aware of to become a good coach. Again it comes back to the wheel 470 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,300 so advising I'd say it starts with Self-awareness. 471 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,900 But then asking good open-ended questions. 472 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:37,600 So now I'm coming back to professional coaching. 473 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,700 Remember that place I was talking about but it's not all 474 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:43,200 about that. I would say that's a good place 475 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,200 to start for any technical leader. 476 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,100 That's a good stance to check because it's not about you 477 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:51,800 solving problems or it's not about you telling people what to 478 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,600 do. It's about you helping them 479 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,200 discover their way and I think there's an art to asking. 480 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,300 Good, open-ended questions or powerful question? 481 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,600 So study them. There's literally everyone a 482 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,100 book on Amazon entitled, powerful questions. 483 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:10,400 And if you ever wanted to have like 8000 questions to ask good, 484 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,200 open-ended questions. I mean, it's got thousands of 485 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,500 questions. I'm not suggesting you have to 486 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:19,900 read all but the point is become Artful with asking questions. 487 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,700 The second thing I always joke in my classes asking a powerful 488 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,900 question is only part of it. Powerful listening is the other 489 00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:29,600 part. I find that a lot of people. 490 00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:31,300 I'm going to pick on technical leader. 491 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,900 We suck at listening, we suck at patients and Henry, not you and 492 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:39,400 not anyone listening to podcasts, but other people in 493 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,300 the universe. And so, I think slowing down and 494 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,900 really carefully letting your questions land, given some 495 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:50,900 folks, time to think about it, actually practicing silence. 496 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:54,700 Silence is a wonderful friend for everyone patients and then 497 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:58,000 helping re-clarify. So do some studies and Powerful 498 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,100 listening. There's something in the book 499 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,800 called the coaching Arc. Think of it as a way of having a 500 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,400 conversation structure, guide like a chess metaphor opening 501 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,500 moves, middle game in and gave Landing it. 502 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,400 Think in terms when you're coaching people in coaching 503 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,900 sessions of having an art. What's nice about that? 504 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:18,600 Coaching mindset is, it's about the client very often, at least 505 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,000 in my experience, technical leaders, they make it about the 506 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,500 business and they make the conversations. 507 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,400 So if you've ever had a one-on-one with someone I've 508 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,600 made this mistake and I still can make the mistake when I'm 509 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,300 under business pressure. I make it about Delivery and I 510 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:35,100 make it about solving problems and that's not a good one on 511 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:37,400 one, or I make it about, identifying the person's 512 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,500 weaknesses, or picking at that, or improving them. 513 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,900 That's not coaching the client. In fact, start with what is 514 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:47,600 their agenda, what can you do for them? 515 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,500 That should be your first powerful question in a 516 00:26:49,508 --> 00:26:52,200 one-on-one in a coaching conversation, what is your 517 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,600 problem? What is your challenge? 518 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,500 And what can I do to help? You does everyone see the 519 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:58,700 switch? It's not about me as the leader. 520 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:01,200 It's about me serving team member or me. 521 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,000 Serving the team or me serving multiple teams. 522 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,600 I can have a coaching conversation with 100 people. 523 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,900 I can have an arc with a hundred people. 524 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,500 It's the posture change that professional coaching sort of 525 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:14,700 changes. I would say if you all entertain 526 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:18,200 that, that's a wonderful way to start flipping your Leadership 527 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,700 Model Henry. Any reactions to that. 528 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,800 Yeah, I mean, so many insights. I'm just listening to what you 529 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,500 described, I'm reflecting myself because I'm so guilty of so many 530 00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:30,900 things that you mentioned. So for example, as Leaders we 531 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:34,400 tend to Want to solve problems. Trying to improve our example, 532 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,400 our direct reports Witnesses, or maybe the parts where they do 533 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,100 not do effectively. The other thing is about 534 00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,300 listening, sometimes as technically there's when we ask 535 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:46,800 the question, we already have a judgment and answer that. 536 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,200 We are getting ready to reply back to the person. 537 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,000 I think all this is common for many leaders out. 538 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,000 There is like a bias that we have, so thanks for mentioning 539 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,600 that I think really, really, very good techniques, right? 540 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,800 These powerful questions and Powerful, listening, if we can 541 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,500 dive Deeper into each of these powerful questions. 542 00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:06,200 What would be some of your favorite powerful questions? 543 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,400 But maybe if you can, maybe teach us here, what are some of 544 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,500 the examples or maybe behaviors that we want to dig deeper by 545 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,100 those powerful questions. So, do so seller. 546 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:17,000 Would recommend I talk about in the book. 547 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,100 The coaching habit is another book. 548 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,000 It's actually not a coaching product and it's not an agile 549 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,100 book, it's not a technical leadership book. 550 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:28,400 It's a generic leadership book. So it's a nice book that 551 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,900 supports what I was just saying and what the author Came up with 552 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,000 he shared one of the dangers. Would powerful questions. 553 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,600 Henry is there so many choices I've seen in experienced 554 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,400 coaches. They spent so much time trying 555 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,700 to pick the perfect question, because they have so many 556 00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,600 choices and it makes the coaching very awkward because 557 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,200 you can see the person going through the algorithm to try to 558 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,000 depict Perfect Situation. Apprised it the person being 559 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,700 coaches, like, and you will what? 560 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,600 Please ask another question. So there's too many choices or 561 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,700 there can be. So he has seven and I love the 562 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:03,500 Simplicity of Of the bottle. I like to identify them as to 563 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:06,100 where in a coaching art, they might be most appropriate. 564 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:08,900 So the first question is to kick-start, question, what's on 565 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:10,800 your mind? Beautiful question. 566 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,400 Everyone would meet beautiful question, what's on your mind? 567 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,200 Stop, don't tell him what's on your mind, what's on their mind? 568 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,400 And then listen, just listen to that. 569 00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:23,300 The second one is and what else? The all question? 570 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,800 And what else? So, what's on your mind? 571 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,300 And what else meant? Let that lay ahead. 572 00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:31,200 And that's setting the agenda. A room would be so that's it. 573 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,100 Putting move question. Both of those can be nicely done 574 00:29:34,100 --> 00:29:36,600 in the opening moves, its setting the agenda. 575 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,200 Oh what do you think we should cover? 576 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,400 What do you need? The most help with. 577 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,900 What would you like to cover in this conversation as everyone 578 00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:44,900 see the agenda? Is that coming from me? 579 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,400 The agenda is coming from who I'm coaching and I'm serving 580 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,400 them. Now, of course, if we're in the 581 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,500 middle of a project, I would hope that some of the things on 582 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:57,200 their mind, ours, challenges that they have so that I have 583 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,000 it. The third question is a focus 584 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,200 question. What's the real challenge here? 585 00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:04,600 For you or to you. So now there are these questions 586 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,100 that are going a little bit deeper. 587 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,100 I think of it as the five wise, if you've ever heard of the five 588 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,400 ask, why multiple times you're trying to drill into 589 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,400 understanding? So, that's a wonderful question 590 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,900 to get below the surface on something. 591 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,900 The foundation. Question is, what do you want? 592 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,100 Wonderful question, probably not opening moves. 593 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:27,000 Now we've moved into middle game and you could use these wherever 594 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,200 you want but there's a place in the middle. 595 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,400 Okay. What do you want? 596 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:33,400 What would you like? See, happen is a variation of 597 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,300 that, right? What would help you right now? 598 00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:39,500 What's the priority the lazy question is? 599 00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:42,200 How can I help? If you notice Henry? 600 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Now, what's happening is, this is giving me permission to then 601 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,900 provide guidance if you're with me, but I haven't gone in with 602 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:53,200 my guns, blazing telling people what's wrong, and what they need 603 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,000 to do. I'm actually asking permission 604 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,600 as a coach. I hope this is opening, right? 605 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,100 I'm listening. How can I help Henry you? 606 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:03,900 Talk about as Leaders. We always have, I want to help 607 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:06,800 five things and they don't pick any of my five. 608 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,200 They pick another one. Do I guide them to one of mine 609 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:13,700 or do I take theirs? And the answer is I take theirs 610 00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:17,200 and I put mine on the show for a little bit. 611 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:21,300 So there's something called the Strategic question and I love 612 00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:24,300 this one, it's maybe not appropriate but if you're saying 613 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:28,300 yes to this what do you say no to, it's the priority question. 614 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,700 It's the avoiding multitasking question or Avoiding excessive 615 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,900 work in progress question and I think it's appropriate for all 616 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,300 of us. So if you say yes to this 617 00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:40,400 redesign, what do you have to say? 618 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,500 No to. Okay, what do you have to stop 619 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:46,200 doing? Let that question later on the 620 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,000 learning question, this is a 10 game question. 621 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,600 What was most useful to you in this coaching session? 622 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,900 Here's something. I want more leaders to ask Henry 623 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,300 how could I have made this coaching session better for you. 624 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:01,900 What could I have done? Better. 625 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,000 I hope everyone is sensing all of these questions and even the 626 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,400 way I've been playing them about, I hope you see that. 627 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,500 It's not about me. Did you notice that? 628 00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:14,300 It's really about me. It's about be helping someone 629 00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:16,300 else, and I think that's a key mindset. 630 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:20,200 So, starting with coaching and Drilling in, I'd highly 631 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,100 recommend you read the book, it's relatively short. 632 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,500 And you start practicing these questions in your one-on-ones. 633 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,400 You could use these in a group setting Etc and switch that 634 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,600 posture from Hey everyone, I'm the boss here. 635 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:37,300 I know what's going on. Switch that posture to 636 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:41,400 activating your team. And my experience is that will 637 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,000 grow the capability of your teams and they will blow your 638 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,000 socks off. Because now it's not about you, 639 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,200 it's about them growing but that's just me. 640 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,000 Wow. And I listen to you explaining 641 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,100 this 7, powerful questions. It's adapted from the book 642 00:32:57,100 --> 00:32:59,700 called the coaching habit. So if you haven't heard, make 643 00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:01,100 sure you check it out on your book. 644 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,800 Store, right? So the coaching habit, 645 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,300 Advocates, 7 powerful questions. So the way Bob explained I was 646 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,900 looking back in my one-on-one habit because I also want to 647 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,000 improve my one-on-one skills. Sometimes it's really hard 648 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,800 depending on the person as well. Sometimes they share more 649 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,300 sometimes they don't talk. So I think these seven powerful 650 00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:22,800 questions can be a framework for everyone who listens here, maybe 651 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,500 in your one-on-one or in your problem solving kind of 652 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,600 discussions, you can start with all this and the beauty is that 653 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,100 it follows the coaching Arc. So there's a There's a middle 654 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,200 and there's n. Thanks for sharing all this. 655 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,900 I will make sure myself to read this book and learn more from 656 00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:39,700 this powerful questions. The other skill that you 657 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:41,700 mentioned is about powerful listening. 658 00:33:41,900 --> 00:33:44,300 I think it's equally important like I mentioned, right? 659 00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:47,500 So many leaders have their own biases and they don't, listen 660 00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:51,400 they don't listen fully so tell us more how we can be a powerful 661 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,800 listeners. I didn't even write in the book 662 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Henry. I've been a technical manager or 663 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,100 a leader for ears, and one of the things I used to do and I 664 00:34:00,108 --> 00:34:02,500 still sometimes do it. I have to fight it but were you 665 00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:05,600 were talking about? I'm thinking ahead as a leader 666 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,500 and I know what the problems and I have five Solutions. 667 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,600 I'm waiting for an opportunity to tell everyone out of fix 668 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,600 themselves, so I'm actually not listening to them. 669 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,300 I mean I'm sort of listening but I'm multitasking maybe 20% of my 670 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,500 CPU is listening and 80% of my CPU is waiting to tell them what 671 00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,300 to do. Someone told me that talking 672 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:29,100 versus listening that you have idle time and it really 673 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:33,800 resonated with me even a fast. Talker is only taking up like 10 674 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,800 or 20% of your brain. Some people are really good at 675 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,699 using the other 80% to observe but I'm not I have a tendency to 676 00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:46,199 multitask in my head so I started taking notes and I don't 677 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:50,400 need the notes but I started using note keeping as a way to 678 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,300 take up that idle time. I hope this is helping everyone 679 00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:57,300 is so I actually take detailed notes and what it's doing is 680 00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,500 slowing me down so that I'm a better listener, it's not About 681 00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:04,400 the note, keeping it's about the note, keeping to be a better 682 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,900 listener. The other thing is, I think it's 683 00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:10,500 not just think about the words, but become an observer part of 684 00:35:10,508 --> 00:35:12,700 powerful. Listening is observing someone's 685 00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:15,700 body language observing their intonation. 686 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,700 What if someone like their hands start moving when they talk 687 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,200 about a problem? I like, oh my gosh, you know, 688 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,500 I've been working on this for like five days as I listened to 689 00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:26,600 her, what they're doing is they're giving you extra 690 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,000 information and you could explore that. 691 00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:32,200 I could say Henry. Tell me more about Your hands. 692 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,600 What's going on? This must be really frustrating 693 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,700 or really challenging for you tell me more about what's going 694 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:40,800 on. Everyone, if I wasn't paying 695 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,300 attention to the his hands, or if I wasn't using it to 696 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:48,000 understand, he was communicating or his intonation. 697 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,300 If his voice goes up, that something might be happening. 698 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,700 So I think powerful listening is not just listening to the words, 699 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,500 but listening to body language, listening to intonation. 700 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:00,900 Also listening to the emotional field. 701 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,200 Coaches talk about the emotional field. 702 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,500 Sometimes even what's not said, one of my most powerful 703 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:11,100 listening aspects is, what if someone didn't ask me for help, 704 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:14,400 so Henry comes to me talking about a problem. 705 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000 He hasn't seen his children for five days. 706 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,900 He forgot their names. He's been working 24 hours a day 707 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,900 and sweat is coming off. And he just promises promises 708 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,800 promises and then that's the end of the conversation. 709 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,000 So he never asked me for help as a coach, as a leader. 710 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,900 Should I consider why I might actually want to reflect later 711 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,100 and then have another conversation with Henry? 712 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,300 It's like does he consider me not helpful, does he consider me 713 00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:44,300 an ogre? Is it unsafe for him to ask for 714 00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:46,700 help? Have I created an environment 715 00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:50,600 where it lacks safety or have I not encouraged him or what? 716 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:53,500 There's something going on there everyone with me, Henry 717 00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:57,300 communicated something to me without communicating if I'm not 718 00:36:57,300 --> 00:36:59,100 really listening. I think of it as having my 719 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:01,000 antenna up, I need to be listening. 720 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,500 On all channels. Maybe that's the way to think 721 00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:05,200 about to me. Powerful this thing. 722 00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,700 Another big part of it is in reflecting back. 723 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,300 Telling Henry, what I heard, did you notice in my example? 724 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:14,500 I observe. So part of reflection was I saw 725 00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:17,500 his hands moving and that was an exaggerated example. 726 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,800 What if Henry was like this, when he was talking about dates, 727 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:23,500 his eyes were down. He was looking at his feet. 728 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,200 Henry, are you going to hit the date? 729 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,000 I don't know. Yeah, maybe I will. 730 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,800 I'll try. I'll try really hard. 731 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,800 He hasn't made eye contact. Maybe I call that out. 732 00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:37,500 Not in the confrontational way. Henry, you're not looking at me 733 00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:40,800 clearly something's going on. So what I'm doing is it's not 734 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,300 just listening on all channels but then reflecting back and 735 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:47,500 clarifying if that makes sense thinking about it, how do I get 736 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:49,200 better? Communication, how do I make it 737 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,700 safer that to me would be powerful listening and then pay 738 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:55,300 attention. I think the key thing like I 739 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:59,500 said is, it's our job to pay attention something related to 740 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,300 this. It's not Their job to clearly, 741 00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:05,300 communicate to me. Oh, they never told me that they 742 00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:06,900 never said they couldn't hit that day. 743 00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:09,500 They never said that they were having technical challenges. 744 00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:14,200 It's their job, but it's also our job to detect it as Leaders. 745 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,900 We need to become better. Receivers is the point. 746 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:20,300 Receivership is our responsibility of. 747 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:23,200 It's not just a one-way street is what I'm trying to 748 00:38:23,207 --> 00:38:25,200 communicate. So we have a responsibility to 749 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,700 become a better questioner and a better listener. 750 00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:30,800 Wow, it's like a master class for me. 751 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,600 Like learning how to be a better Coach or leader. 752 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,600 I think you give some practical tips, right? 753 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,900 Like, for example, taking notes itself is a knack for you to 754 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:40,500 slow down kind of like, listen, right? 755 00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:43,500 Because you cannot write notes without listening and also like 756 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,000 being at the same time. Otherwise you use that brain to 757 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,700 think about something else. Maybe the replies. 758 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:49,700 Are you gonna answer and things like that? 759 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:52,700 That actually is quite powerful. For those who haven't practiced 760 00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:56,200 this, taking notes in your 11, maybe also, sometimes it's not 761 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,800 always about giving answers Solutions, sometimes is about 762 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,600 the person wants to is their frustrations and just blowing up 763 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,700 the Steam and that's it, or should I give some solutions? 764 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,100 So maybe as an experienced coach or how do you determine whether 765 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:12,900 this is the time for you to give Solutions or this is the time 766 00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:15,300 for you to just listen acknowledge and maybe reflect 767 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:17,200 back, like you said, maybe any tips. 768 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,400 Here's how to gauge this kind of conversation. 769 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:21,700 I want to actually show you some videos for you. 770 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:24,700 Inspire me Henry, there's something called ventilation. 771 00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,700 So, I've attended professional coaching classes, I'm interested 772 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:31,000 in improving my coaching skills. My professional. 773 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,400 Drinks of and I attended something called, or Schoo RSC. 774 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,200 It's an organizational relationship systems coaching. 775 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:40,600 And it's a system, which is means groups of two or more 776 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,400 allowing the system. To ventilate can be very 777 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,100 helpful. So I used to shut that down 778 00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:48,400 because I'm uncomfortable with conflict. 779 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,000 We need to get something done as a leader. 780 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,100 I will shut down whining and complaining very often. 781 00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:56,600 I can shut that. What I've learned is not let it 782 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,700 go on for days but let it go on allow the system to Ali, instead 783 00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:04,300 of trying to neutralize it. So that's, I wanted to give a 784 00:40:04,308 --> 00:40:07,500 term to what you said. It's not a good habit to shut 785 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,300 those things down. Allow them to emerge. 786 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,800 I think is a good habit for that. 787 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,300 Now I've lost your original question, restate your question. 788 00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:18,900 Yeah. So I was about to say, how do 789 00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:21,700 you know the time for you to give some function? 790 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,500 Thank you. It neutralizes. 791 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,500 All right, so everyone I have a rule that I made up called the 792 00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:30,800 95 percent rule is for coaches is for leaders. 793 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,100 This is less of a coaching role and more of a leadership role 794 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,600 but it applies to coaching the 95% role is out of every hundred 795 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,600 opportunities Henry that you get two people come to you and they 796 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,700 want your wisdom. They want your Tactical wisdom, 797 00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:47,400 your problem-solving capabilities, out of every 798 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,300 hundred times. You get five times to tell them 799 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:53,900 what to do. Otherwise, the other 95% of the 800 00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,300 time, you have to shut up and help them solve their own 801 00:40:57,300 --> 00:40:58,900 problem. Does that make sense? 802 00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:01,800 So you get five opportunities and you have to keep track of 803 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,600 these. I have not written an app but 804 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,000 you can write an app and you can call it your 95 percent rule. 805 00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:11,100 I think the best strategy is to keep those five in your back 806 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,700 pocket for the most crucial decisions. 807 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,700 That make sense like a, someone comes to you and you know, that 808 00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,100 they're making a fundamental mistake that will harm the 809 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,300 business. Yes, help them Henry, get in the 810 00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:26,400 game, help them fix it. But that takes one away you've 811 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,900 now, lost one of your five. This is with a high-performance 812 00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:32,700 team, everyone with me. I think the 95 percent rule 813 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:34,900 changes based on the experience level of the team. 814 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,000 When I use this at a company, I had really high performance 815 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,500 teams. So I didn't need to solve their 816 00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:42,800 problems, I needed to enable them to solve their own 817 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,000 problems. If I had an inexperienced team, 818 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,300 I would probably have the 80% or the 75 percent rule because I 819 00:41:49,308 --> 00:41:53,100 would need to be more prescriptive more often based on 820 00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:55,200 the maturity or the skill set of the team. 821 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:57,900 But the point is a lot of leaders. 822 00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:00,700 Flip it around. They have 25 percent rule they 823 00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:04,000 only Oh, shut up, five times out of 100, everyone. 824 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,300 Trusts his part of this trust that the team or the individuals 825 00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:09,800 will solve their own problem. It think about it, if you've 826 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,400 hired great people, if you've done a good job, then they are 827 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,800 capable. They don't need you to be 828 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,300 telling them what to do, or it be to be situational. 829 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,600 So anyone who's listening to this, think about creating your 830 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,600 own percent rule, where are the must-haves? 831 00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:29,500 But a lot of leaders Henry. In my experience, they flip it 832 00:42:29,508 --> 00:42:32,200 around. It's a So, their self-worth, 833 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,400 it's a sense of their experience, they're not honoring 834 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,800 and trusting their teams and they're not aware of it. 835 00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:42,700 So that's where that 95 or the 80% rule can really help. 836 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,800 Again disa all really insightful, Biz Dev ride from 837 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,900 Bob about coaching for leaders out there if you don't practice 838 00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,200 all these yet. So I think also, it comes back 839 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,600 to this psychological safety. For example, as a leader, do you 840 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,700 trust your people? Do you give it a chance for your 841 00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:00,900 people to try van their own not necessarily always for you, too? 842 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,200 Ooh, direct. I'm guilty of this so many times 843 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,100 as well, as a leader myself, and I think, for those of you who 844 00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:09,400 listen at needs time to reflect back, how can you come up with 845 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,200 your percentage rule? It should not be lopsided 5% to 846 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,400 listen and I never said, giving answers, but it should be motto. 847 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,100 It's, you know, listening and observing and driving people so 848 00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:21,800 that they can solve their own problems. 849 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:25,200 And you brought up a good point. If we hire good people, we want 850 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,000 them to solve their own problems. 851 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,000 Sometimes, most of the times, especially in high performing 852 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,500 team, so Another interesting thing that I pick up from your 853 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,000 book, you mentioned about coaching up. 854 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,900 I always thought that as a coach, you kind of like move 855 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:41,800 from top to bottom, right? You kind of like, advice people, 856 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,000 give people some advice and things like that, but you also 857 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,800 mentioned about the technique called coaching up, where you 858 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,200 probably do some kind of coaching through the leaders, 859 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:52,900 tell us more about this, what's this term? 860 00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:55,800 And how do we use it in day-to-day as a technical 861 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,300 practitioners people have talked about manager, your manager, or 862 00:43:59,300 --> 00:44:00,900 there's Expressions that you may have heard. 863 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,500 Third or managing up. So coaching up, is the 864 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:08,100 equivalent of that. I think downward is easy Henry. 865 00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:12,300 I think it's easier for us to coach, or manage down and it's 866 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:14,500 much more challenging for us to coach. 867 00:44:14,700 --> 00:44:18,500 So, for me, peer-to-peer one of my challenges is peer to peer 868 00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:22,100 coaching or peer-to-peer management because I struggle 869 00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:25,700 with talking, they're my peers and I respect them and I don't 870 00:44:25,700 --> 00:44:28,400 know if I should be telling them giving them advice or having 871 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,700 powerful questions with them. So actually for That's actually 872 00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:34,500 my most difficult Direction and then there's coaching up. 873 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:36,900 I have an easier time coaching up than I do. 874 00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:40,800 Peer to peer coaching leaders, my boss who I report to and it 875 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,900 depends on that. I would say as a leader, we have 876 00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:48,200 a responsibility to coach and 360°, an agile coach has a 877 00:44:48,207 --> 00:44:51,500 responsibility to coach. So, as Leaders, it's that same 878 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:54,400 thing, I think there's risk in the direction. 879 00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,700 So some of the directions has additional risk. 880 00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:01,100 The other thing, remember I was talking about stances earlier, I 881 00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:04,700 was talking about this notion of stances, I think professional 882 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:06,700 coaching stances. You're probably going to use it 883 00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:09,400 more with your team's people that report to you. 884 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,300 I think that coaching up as much more about advisory stance and 885 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:17,000 leading stands and how you're showing up to them. 886 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:20,100 Are you role modeling? Are you walking your own talk? 887 00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:21,900 That really resonates with leaders? 888 00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:24,800 Like you can coach up by just showing them what good agile. 889 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,600 Let's talk about agile, delivery business agility, and agile 890 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,900 teams. You can coach your boss. 891 00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:34,300 This by coaching Kick-Ass teams and showing them. 892 00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:37,700 What Excellence looks like to me, that's a coaching activity. 893 00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:41,100 That's a coaching up activity. It's less about asking them 894 00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:44,200 death by a thousand questions or something like that. 895 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,200 So your stances need to shift. That's I think the same thing 896 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,900 with your peer. Another part of it is being 897 00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:54,000 Adept with what I would call, crucial conversations or radical 898 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,100 Candor Having the courage. I can't tell you Henry, as an 899 00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:00,600 outside consultant. I'll come into organizations 900 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,600 this Happens to me, hundreds to thousands of times. 901 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,200 I might be coaching managers and leaders and they all come to me 902 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,000 at, tell me their problems and their like, Bob will you tell 903 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,800 them about it? They want me to have the crucial 904 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,700 conversations upward IV sometimes I do, but I'm like, 905 00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:19,900 come on guys and gals. This is your job. 906 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,400 No, no, no. We want you to do it, you're so 907 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,800 much better at it than I am, but my point is part of radical 908 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,900 Candor and crucial conversations is Having the courage. 909 00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:32,500 It's your job to have these. Conversations and to become more 910 00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:34,800 skilled at it. Actually, a, my leadership 911 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,400 workshops, we use a dojo format to practice having what I would 912 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,100 call crucial conversations so that people can get a little bit 913 00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:46,300 more confidence in having them and improve their skills. 914 00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:49,100 So that they can have those. What I would call those hard 915 00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:51,500 conversations. Another way to say, to speaking 916 00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:54,700 truth to power. That's part of our job and a lot 917 00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:57,400 of folks avoid that for a variety of reasons. 918 00:46:57,700 --> 00:47:00,700 But I think if you're in the coaching business or you're in 919 00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:04,400 the Leadership, is this, you have to have these conversations 920 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,500 for your team's if not for you and not for the organization for 921 00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:11,100 the health of your teams. So whatever it takes to have 922 00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:15,900 them now, don't go It Alone, it takes practice and skill and 923 00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:19,200 techniques to do that. I would recommend to books to 924 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,100 read. There is a book called crucial 925 00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:24,600 conversations that has a framework for engaging in these 926 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,400 kinds of conversations. You could think of it as an arc 927 00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:30,900 and then radical Candor is a wonderful book that talks about 928 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,500 Out the Dynamics of that again, it's not just downward its 929 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:38,500 outward and upward as well. Well, thanks again for giving us 930 00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:41,200 recommendations of books to learn more about this and I 931 00:47:41,207 --> 00:47:43,600 think you brought up a good point, this difficult 932 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,700 conversations, The crucial conversation and radical Candor. 933 00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:50,100 Sometimes we up for the easy way, just shut up and don't 934 00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,700 mention anything because sometimes we fear that when we 935 00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,800 say something bad to the boss, for example, they will raid us 936 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,600 differently. Maybe they think, as a problem 937 00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:01,600 maker or something like that. So I think the Responsibility 938 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,500 for us. As a good mature leader is 939 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:05,900 actually to brought up this kind of difficult conversations as 940 00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:07,700 well. When I listen to you, Bob, I 941 00:48:07,707 --> 00:48:10,800 think I can see why people tell you are the coach of the 942 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,300 coaches, can you maybe give us some practical tips. 943 00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:17,500 How can we actually coach those managers as well? 944 00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:19,900 Because they are like the coach through the direct reports below 945 00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,300 them. So any kind of tips maybe as a 946 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:24,700 coach of the coaches. So, for example, if you're a 947 00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,400 director and you have a manager below, you and the manager has 948 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,800 more people below them, right? How can you coach this middle? 949 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:36,100 I just saw this big so two ideas, I would present one is 950 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,200 show them. This actually comes back full 951 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,400 circle, Henry to what we were talking about. 952 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,700 I actually think my most powerful coaching stance and I'm 953 00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:45,700 discovering this in my coaching Journey. 954 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,900 How am I role-modeling stance? It's part of the leadership. 955 00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:52,200 How am I showing up? I don't have to say a word. 956 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,400 What if a VP comes into a room that I'm coaching and they start 957 00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,600 blaming people for missing a date. 958 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,500 And now people look at okay, Bobson, outside, coach, whatever 959 00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:05,700 there's a context there, how am I going to show up? 960 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,900 You understand what I'm saying? Not what am I going to say? 961 00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,300 But what am I going to do? And how do I do it? 962 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,900 And I have a myriad of choices. I could put my head down and 963 00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:18,300 check my phone. I could send that email to my 964 00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:21,600 mom. I could leave the room pretend I 965 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,400 have to have a break or I could have a conversation right there 966 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,100 and say Henry, really blame is not going to help at all. 967 00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:30,800 In this situation, why don't I work with this? 968 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,600 Team to figure out what the possible. 969 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,200 Next steps are clearly. You're having a lot of emotion, 970 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,100 a lot of heat. Why don't I meet with you 971 00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:40,500 afterwards? So I'm going to kick them off in 972 00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:42,700 facilitate, why don't you take a break? 973 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,500 So, what I've done, is stepped in and tried to facilitate a 974 00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,000 session to deescalate it, that required a lot of Courage on my 975 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,700 part maybe Henry was about to write my check. 976 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,700 He was about to send me money and that might not work. 977 00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:58,000 Well I might not get my money so there's risk for me as well, but 978 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,200 I stepped into the risk. I tried to be congruent I wanted 979 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,300 to deflect blame and I might even called it out. 980 00:50:03,300 --> 00:50:05,100 I'm like blame is not going to help us here. 981 00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:08,100 Henry blame is not going to solve the problem, finding out 982 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:10,400 who made the mistake. What's that going to do? 983 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,400 Stop that. All I'm trying to do is I'm 984 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,700 trying to roleplay here. So I think as a leader, everyone 985 00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:20,000 who reports to you, you are setting, I call it culture, 986 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,800 shaping Henry. That's say you have three levels 987 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,500 of organization below. You guess what? 988 00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:28,500 The culture of that organization, emanates from how 989 00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:32,400 you are showing up, if you are a working, Haluk and you like to 990 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,100 work 20 hour days. That's what you're setting. 991 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:36,700 Guess. What's going to happen in the 992 00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,200 organization? You might not ever write that 993 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,300 down. If you never talk about your 994 00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:43,900 family, Henry, no one will have. I'm kidding. 995 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,500 No one will ever hurt. But if you bring some of your 996 00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:50,300 personal self into work, if you honor people like work-life 997 00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:52,400 balance, guess what happens in the culture? 998 00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:56,100 So my point is, I think one of the best things you can do is do 999 00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,200 that control how you show up and then give folks the space and 1000 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,300 remind folks. Exxon, how you're showing up 1001 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,300 become a culture shaper? So, you're coaching by not 1002 00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:09,500 coaching. The second thing I would say, is 1003 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,600 create a safe environment. So those folks can ask you for 1004 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,300 help. I used to sit in on one-on-ones 1005 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,800 with managers and they would ask me, say Bob I'm struggling with 1006 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,300 a one-on-one or I need to put someone on a performance 1007 00:51:20,300 --> 00:51:23,800 Improvement, plan or whatever. And I'm really worried about 1008 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,200 that, I would help them with that. 1009 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,300 I would coach them personally to help, so it's not only two 1010 00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:34,500 things, but Role modeling and then mentoring the individuals 1011 00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:38,100 around the ways that you're showing up because it's going to 1012 00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:40,400 disrupt them. It's going to be hard for them 1013 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,000 to change from Bob, blame culture to an empowerment 1014 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,400 culture. So help them, that would be two 1015 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,000 ideas. Thanks so much for the tips 1016 00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:52,100 again, like I mentioned, this is like a master class of coaching 1017 00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:55,000 for leaders out there. I myself feel being coach a lot 1018 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,700 today, unfortunately due to time but I think we have to cut it 1019 00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:02,400 pretty soon but I always have one Question that I asked to all 1020 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,000 my guests which is for you to share three technical 1021 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,000 leadership. Wisdom, you mentioned about it 1022 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,300 in the middle of our conversation, I hope you do 1023 00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:11,800 prepare something. So take it like an advice that 1024 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,400 you want to give to all the listeners out there, especially 1025 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,400 may be related to conversation or to your experience, maybe if 1026 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,300 you can share your three technical leadership with the 1027 00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:22,900 Bob. I intentionally didn't prepare 1028 00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:25,500 something because I wanted to challenge myself Henry. 1029 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,400 So there's going to be a little bit of a, pause everyone while I 1030 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,700 think, but I think this is the better way. 1031 00:52:31,100 --> 00:52:36,000 So, I think be genuine, as a technical leader, be you. 1032 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,700 Bring your whole self to work, not just your professional 1033 00:52:39,700 --> 00:52:42,800 skills. Be you be vulnerable. 1034 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,000 If you don't know, something show, vulnerability say, I don't 1035 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,800 know, ask for help of your teeth. 1036 00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:51,500 One of the most powerful things as the leader you can do is ask 1037 00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:55,000 your team to help you. It can have phenomenal results. 1038 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,600 Help me to solve this problem because you're flipping it 1039 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,700 around and it feels vulnerable, it feels like, whoa. 1040 00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:03,000 Well, I'm a leader. I need to know everything. 1041 00:53:03,100 --> 00:53:06,600 So be genuine, be you bring your whole self to work. 1042 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,300 I think one-on-ones, a second thing. 1043 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,500 You're one-on-ones are a powerful change tool and we 1044 00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:16,400 talked about that. So, look at your one-on-one 1045 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,800 interactions and I mean, one-on-one coaching sessions, 1046 00:53:20,100 --> 00:53:24,300 you are a coach, so, darn it. Take ownership of those events 1047 00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:26,100 and don't make it about the business. 1048 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,100 The one-on-one is about the person that you're with and 1049 00:53:30,100 --> 00:53:32,100 about. Them and it's their agenda. 1050 00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:35,400 So try this experiment have powerful one-on-ones with 1051 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,000 powerful listening and make it about the other person and their 1052 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,800 agenda, lean into that and see what happens. 1053 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,500 Organizationally just look and I can carrot to you that your 1054 00:53:45,500 --> 00:53:48,500 organization will improve but it's counterintuitive because 1055 00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:53,300 both of those one and two are both sort of awkward to start 1056 00:53:53,300 --> 00:53:55,200 with but try it and look at what's happening. 1057 00:53:55,700 --> 00:53:58,900 The third thing and we didn't talk about it at all. 1058 00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:02,100 Today is self care. I don't know if you can be a 1059 00:54:02,100 --> 00:54:04,600 good leader if you're not taking care of yourself. 1060 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,300 I once took a survey and took leadership culture survey 360 1061 00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:12,200 with a lot of people. A lot of people that I had 1062 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,500 worked with, as a leader in other companies. 1063 00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:18,100 The survey came back and one of my weaknesses is I'm a bit of a 1064 00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:22,900 workaholic but one of the comments of 15 people, like 1065 00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:25,400 eight of them said Bob we don't want you to die. 1066 00:54:25,700 --> 00:54:29,600 We're worried that you're going to die and I was like oh my God, 1067 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,900 it's like I'm not. Care of myself. 1068 00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:35,900 So the data showed me that but then the personal comments like 1069 00:54:35,900 --> 00:54:38,800 really, I'm like, man, I must be doing it really. 1070 00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:43,500 So my point is, we're not self aware of it or very often we 1071 00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:48,700 ignore it, but your first customer your first client, your 1072 00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:53,300 first Kochi is you, and are you taking care of you? 1073 00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:57,100 My observation is both. Leaders are doing terrible job 1074 00:54:57,100 --> 00:54:58,600 me. Included of taking care of 1075 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,900 themselves, because they feel like, Their job is to take care 1076 00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:05,800 of others, but in order to do that, it's the oxygen masks that 1077 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,100 a, for a room with Bay before you put on the oxygen mask of 1078 00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:11,000 other people, you have to put it on yourself. 1079 00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:14,100 So self care, first. And that's my three. 1080 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,800 Wow. That's like a perfect. 1081 00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,200 Way to wrap up our conversation because we've been talking about 1082 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,100 coaching many people assume Cochise about you helping other 1083 00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:25,000 people, you listening other people. 1084 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,300 But you mention something really important that. 1085 00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:30,300 The first customer the first person that you should coach is 1086 00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:32,800 actually South so self. Get, please take care of 1087 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,900 yourself, don't burn out. Sometimes, we are in this mode 1088 00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:37,100 and we are not self-aware, right? 1089 00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:40,000 Sometimes we need people to also trigger us a, maybe you should 1090 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,300 take care about yourself. So again, thank you so much. 1091 00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:45,400 Bob for reminding us all these important advice. 1092 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,600 So for people who love to continue their conversation with 1093 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,500 you, or maybe buy your books or Consulting, any place, where 1094 00:55:51,500 --> 00:55:53,900 they can find you online book, the best place. 1095 00:55:53,900 --> 00:55:57,600 One place is agile moose so I have a little moniker called 1096 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,200 agile. Hyphen moose MOS seedot Cam. 1097 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,100 That's a nice landing, place to find out more about me. 1098 00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:07,300 Thanks for sharing that again. Thank you so much Bob for this 1099 00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:09,900 powerful master class. I would say, and really thank 1100 00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:12,000 you and appreciate for that. Thank you, Henry. 1101 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,000 I appreciate it. Thank you for listening to this 1102 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,300 episode and for staying, right until the end if you highly 1103 00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:22,700 enjoyed it. 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