1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,240 The reason that we should aim to be better storytellers is 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,880 because by doing so, we're going to be able to communicate the 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,920 great work that we've done more effectively. 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,640 If we don't invest in this skill for ourselves, our work isn't 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,600 going to get the attention that it deserves. 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,280 When I think of storytelling in a business context, there's a 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,240 sense of time and place and characters, and tension exists 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,840 and builds over the course of a narrative that is cohesive. 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,920 There is typically a peak in tension, right, This climactic 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,040 turning point, and then a falling action that leads us to 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,040 a resolution. So the big idea is it's a single 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,560 sentence. That is the main thing you need 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,520 to communicate. It should articulate your point 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,440 of view, convey what's at stake, and it should be one single 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,200 complete sentence. AI can be a really helpful 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,720 brainstorming partner. It comes at things with a 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,440 different lens and a different, I don't know, point of view. 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,120 And it does that with such speed and gets you out of your own 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,880 head, your slide as a a helpful assistant. 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,080 It's there for if you need to be able to show something visually 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,440 so you can turn to it and do that help keep you on track when 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,360 it comes to the, you know, topic or moving from 1:00 to the next. 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,640 But not all the information needs to be there. 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,280 Hello everyone, welcome back to another new episode of the 25 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,680 Technician Now. So today I'm very excited to 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,600 have this guest with me today, Cole News, Bomer Nufflick. 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,960 I actually found out her books many, many years ago. 28 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,600 One of my friend actually referred that book to me and I 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,160 must say it is an insightful book to me. 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,880 Back then I was like a terrible data person, right? 31 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Especially the visualization, but when I found out the book, 32 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,080 right, and I looked at some of the suggestions inside, 33 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,400 actually, it was mind blowing back then for me. 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,760 So I think I'm really excited to have this conversation. 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,160 Cole, welcome to the show. I love hearing that. 36 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,560 Henry, thanks for having me here. 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,560 I'm excited to chat. Yeah. 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,720 So Cole, I always love to invite my guest first to maybe share a 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,920 little bit about yourself. You can mention maybe any 40 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:24,840 turning points that you think we can learn from you. 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,600 Yeah, Maybe I'll start with the turning point, which if I think 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,440 back over the course of my career, which is taking a number 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,200 of twists and turns over time, as many people's has for me, I 44 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,240 think one that comes to mind was the subprime crash. 45 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,160 Basically that happened with the banks here in the States. 46 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,840 Because up until that point, I had been working in credit risk 47 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,040 management and building statistical models to help the 48 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,320 banks understand how much money to reserve and kind of really in 49 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,360 the line of work where things went awry. 50 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,960 And for me, there was a point when I, I'd gone to work for a 51 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,800 private equity company after the bank that had been investing in 52 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,480 subprime mortgage banks. And it just was not a fantastic, 53 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,880 not a motivating environment in which to be. 54 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,160 And so I said, what skills do I have? 55 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,680 What do I want to do? Where do I want to take the 56 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,040 analysis skills, the statistics, the graphing, the things that I 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,560 was starting to do, and where else might I apply that that 58 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,360 doesn't have to do with loans and credit cards. 59 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,400 And I made an inventory of the skills that I had and the things 60 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,840 that I wanted to be using and what I wanted to learn. 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,880 And as part of that process, I came up with an advertisement 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,120 that was for a role called People Analyst. 63 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,120 And I had never heard of this before, never thought about 64 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,080 applying math to human resources, which was basically 65 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,840 at the job. And I got that job. 66 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,960 It was at Google. It was one of those who was very 67 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,320 lucky in terms of I've submitted my resume online through the 68 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,760 portal and somehow it caught someone's attention and I moved 69 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,640 to California and started working at Google as one of the 70 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,120 first members of this new people analytics team that had been 71 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,040 brought together at that point. That was back in 2007 and really 72 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,000 a lot happened from there. My experience at Google, I, I 73 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,160 mean, I think I need to credit it with everything that's 74 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,080 happened since then because that's really where the Nuggets 75 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,760 of for the foundation for storytelling with data and 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,520 everything that's happened since really took footing and grew 77 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,200 from there. Do you need to scale your 78 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,040 engineering team or find specialized talent quickly? 79 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,040 Finding good and experienced developers is hard, even for 80 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,920 seasoned engineering leaders, and I've been there myself. 81 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,720 The usual hiring cycles can take months, while critical features 82 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,240 sit in the backlog waiting to be implemented. 83 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,720 Here's an alternative for you. 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So go to lemon dot IO to find 95 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,600 your experienced developers. Now you can search by role or by 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,400 skill and they will find a match for you from within their 97 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,760 thousands of vetted developers. And you can get 15% off for the 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,920 first four weeks of work by mentioning Technical Journal 99 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,120 when you reach out to them. So stop burning money. 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,360 Hire developers smarter with lemon dot IOI. 101 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,240 Was at Google as well back then, but I didn't know that the 102 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,520 course you have, I think your story probably is one of like 103 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,160 the typical Googlers who actually created a course back 104 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,040 then at Google. It turned viral and now it 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,640 becomes your, you know, kind of like profession, right, a full 106 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,600 time job. So I think that's really great 107 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,560 to hear. So you have written this book 108 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,800 Storytelling with Data. That's the first book of 109 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:28,680 subsequently storytelling with you. 110 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,680 So I think let's just go to the books, right? 111 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,320 So you mentioned about storytelling. 112 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,760 I think people have been mentioning this for many, many 113 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,960 times these days, right? Especially in the business setup 114 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,280 or professional setting. So maybe in the 1st place, I 115 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,960 would like to ask you what is the definition of storytelling 116 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,240 in your view, especially in the business context? 117 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,600 Yeah, and it's a great question because storytelling has 118 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,040 definitely become one of these buzzwords that gets thrown 119 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,320 around a lot, which I think on the one hand is fantastic 120 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,440 because it means people are thinking about it and paying 121 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,480 attention to it. On the other hand, it can be not 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,800 so great because a lot of times people are saying storytelling 123 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,360 when they don't really mean story. 124 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,440 And so that can undermine, I think, some of the power of it. 125 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,240 When I think of storytelling in a business context, I'm really 126 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,560 thinking of traditional story where there is a plot, there's, 127 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,840 you know, a sense of time and place and characters and tension 128 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,680 exists and builds over the course of a narrative that is 129 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,480 cohesive. There is typically a peak in 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,440 tension, right, This climactic turning point, and then a 131 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,840 falling action that leads us to a resolution. 132 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,040 And so you can map any great story basically against this 133 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,680 narrative arc. And I think it works beautifully 134 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,240 as a schematic for planning business communications as well. 135 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,920 Because anytime we're in a situation where we need someone 136 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,120 to understand something new or see things in a different light, 137 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,840 we need to motivate them to make a decision or have a 138 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,840 conversation or choose from a menu of options. 139 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,400 Those are the scenarios in which I think storytelling, they're 140 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,000 ripe for that sort of structure. Because we can think of it as 141 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,680 the journey that we take our audience along, where the 142 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,720 tension becomes the thing that matters to them that either 143 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,080 isn't going well or could be going better. 144 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,120 And then the resolution is the action that our audience can 145 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,960 take to resolve that tension that we've brought to light. 146 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,840 And anytime we have something important to communicate, we can 147 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:55,400 find this story and use that to frame things in a way that I 148 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,800 think can help us get attention at the work that we're doing and 149 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,880 really engage and drive understanding and hopefully 150 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,520 action in the people to whom we're communicating. 151 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,920 Yeah, thanks for sharing about that definition, right. 152 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,080 To me it seems a lot, you know, like having to think about, you 153 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,240 know, all these plot, you know, narrative climax, heroes and all 154 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:16,960 that. Well, you can. 155 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,280 Simplify, right? It doesn't always have to be the 156 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,960 full narrative arc. I think for anyone for whom that 157 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,320 sounds intimidating or it sounds like too big of a departure from 158 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,040 how things are typically done, you can start simple where you 159 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,520 can think of just plot twist ending, right? 160 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Plot is what's the context, what is the basics of what my 161 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,880 audience needs to know? Then the twist is that that 162 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,040 interesting or important new insight and then the ending is 163 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,720 the action that you need them to take. 164 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,320 And you can plot almost any reasonable business scenario 165 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,040 where there's communication that needs to take place onto that 166 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,880 simple story mountain, I guess. Yeah, I think I like that 167 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,160 simplified approach, right? Because I'm sure many people 168 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,680 would have thought, OK, I'm not a storyteller. 169 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,280 I'm not like an awfulist or someone who create movie or 170 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,160 something like that. Because they typically associate 171 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,080 storytelling with those kind of things. 172 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,400 And that's why probably for some people, they kind of like 173 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,560 struggle and they hear storytelling being thrown 174 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:15,520 around, you know, like maybe for presentation or whatever that is 175 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,120 that you want to do in business settings. 176 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,120 Maybe give us a main reason why should we become a better 177 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,720 storyteller? I think the reason and 178 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,560 particularly the reason that I'll say people in technical 179 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:32,560 careers, because typically we haven't spent much time thinking 180 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,080 about this or doing this. We've doubled down on, you know, 181 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,120 the statistics or the programming or all of the things 182 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,920 that make us good at being an analyst or doing that. 183 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,360 The tech part of the job, the reason that we should aim to be 184 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,360 better storytellers is because by doing so, we are going to be 185 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,120 able to communicate the great work that we've done more 186 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,800 effectively. And the converse of that is if 187 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,800 we don't invest in this skill for ourselves, our work isn't 188 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,960 going to get the attention that it deserves. 189 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,440 And so as the storyteller, you become the voice for what you've 190 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,760 done, right, the analysis or the project. 191 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,320 And then you can lend that voice to get other people excited and 192 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,800 engaged. And that is an incredibly 193 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,080 powerful thing to do. And like, a lot of people throw 194 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,280 their hands up in the air and just say, oh, I'm not naturally 195 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,000 a good storyteller, so I'm not going to even try, which is so 196 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,720 sad because nobody or very few people are naturally actually 197 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,320 adept storytellers. I certainly was not. 198 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,040 And so I feel like if I've been able to learn this and been able 199 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,000 to teach my team and now, you know, write books and teach 200 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,600 others, really anyone can stand to gain from thinking about 201 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,040 themselves as a storyteller and thinking about themselves. 202 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,520 And that's too much. Just what journey do you want to 203 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,880 take your audience on? What do you want to move them to 204 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,960 do? Because if we can frame things 205 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,880 in that way of really putting audience first and foremost 206 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,960 front and center, which I think we'll talk about more than, it 207 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,600 enables us to communicate in such a more effective manner 208 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,800 than the way that we typically do, which is we communicate for 209 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,360 ourselves or for our data or for our project, sort of audience be 210 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,720 damned, which isn't a super effective way to approach 211 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,120 things. Yeah, I'm guilty of that. 212 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,400 And I'm sure many people in tech typically like that always fact 213 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,280 driven, you know, straight to the point. 214 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,760 There's no kind of like a story inside, right. 215 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,920 But I think one thing that I also learned from a few people 216 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,280 as well, like actually naturally we are a good storyteller if we 217 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,720 are telling stories about a certain situations that just 218 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,280 happened to us or past experience that we find really 219 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,440 exciting. But somehow putting it into 220 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,760 business context is kind of like weird and difficult, right? 221 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,000 And especially for the listeners as well, maybe, I don't know, in 222 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,960 tech, they kind of like feel a little bit maybe weird to put 223 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,640 story into what you're presenting or what you're trying 224 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,320 to narrate. Why do you think storytelling 225 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,960 works so well in the business context, even though you are 226 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,320 actually not coming up with a story, like a story book or 227 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,000 something like that, right. But why do you think 228 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,720 storytelling really works so well? 229 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,760 Yeah. And I think part of it is that, 230 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,400 you know, this doesn't mean so to tell a story in a business 231 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,120 setting. What I don't mean when I'm 232 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,120 talking about it is, you know, we're not going to go in and 233 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,440 craft some dramatic fairy tale. We take people through. 234 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,960 I think a way to think about it is just the connectedness in 235 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,960 your communication. And that's one of the reasons 236 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,840 that you mean. Your point is great. 237 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,480 Humans have been telling stories for forever. 238 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,280 I mean, that's how we pass information on to future 239 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,360 generations. And it's this the way in which 240 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,440 we can bring people to a different place through the 241 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,120 story and the way that events relate to each other, where you 242 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,480 you mentioned telling people about, you know, maybe something 243 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,200 interesting that happened over the weekend or where you can get 244 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,880 animated and you're telling your friend like this happened and 245 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,640 then this happened and then that lead to that and this other 246 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,920 crazy thing happened. And that's that part is key is 247 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,880 the connectedness where so often business presentations are a 248 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,600 collection of what seems like like totally disparate things, 249 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,360 right where we all right now we're going to move on to the 250 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,880 next slide and there's no connectivity. 251 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,800 And so I think if we think of our business presentations in 252 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,240 the context of story, one thing is just and I mentioned this 253 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,480 before, but what journey do we want to take our audience on? 254 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,000 How do we want to move them from slide or point A to B to C? 255 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,920 And it's really thinking about that narration of how do the 256 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,080 things relate? How can I put them in context so 257 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,280 that the things that I know will make sense to someone else? 258 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,760 And really thinking about leading someone else through the 259 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,200 story of your project or the story of the analysis that you 260 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,600 undertook, the research that you want to share. 261 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,360 There's just these slight reframings that I think can take 262 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,680 storytelling from being elusive or feeling too artsy or squishy 263 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,000 or markety to actually helping people see that we can be really 264 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,360 strategic in how we communicate with others. 265 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:24,480 And this is one thing that we have in our arsenal of potential 266 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,560 approaches to be able to take with an audience and that it 267 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,120 actually can have really great benefits a lot of the time. 268 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,840 But it takes practice and with time becomes easier and more 269 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,680 straightforward. And particularly if you start in 270 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:46,400 low risk places and start small and gain momentum from small 271 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,640 successes and just get more comfortable and credible as 272 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,720 you're doing things. Yeah, thanks for bringing up 273 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:53,480 that point. Right. 274 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,960 So I think your second book Storytelling with you actually 275 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,200 kind of like cover how someone can become a better storyteller 276 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,080 because for some people who are still thinking it's too hard for 277 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,520 them, I'm just not good at it. So I think you brought up a 278 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,760 point in the beginning that maybe you were not good in 279 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,800 storytelling as well. But over the time after you 280 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,480 practice, after you use it in some, you know, maybe use cases, 281 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,560 you become better it. So in your book, you cover this 282 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,040 treating plan, create and deliver, right? 283 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,280 I'm sure many people can learn from that kind of like 284 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,760 simplified framework. So tell us a little bit more 285 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,600 this kind of like framework for us to get started with 286 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,960 storytelling. Yeah, the, so breaking it into 287 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,360 the three sections, right, plan, create, deliver. 288 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,840 In the plan section, it's really about the low tech things you 289 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,920 can do upfront to really understand what it is you are 290 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,600 going to communicate, which sounds really straightforward, 291 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,320 sounds like something we don't need to spend time on. 292 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,640 But so often we just jump straight into making graphs or 293 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,120 making slides without really having a plan in place. 294 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,440 And that plan can help reduce the amount of time and 295 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,640 iterations that you have to spend later on in the process. 296 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,640 And so in the plan section, there's a chapter on audience, 297 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,240 another on message, one on crafting the pieces, which is 298 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,760 basically about storyboarding and really thinking about the 299 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,160 different aspects that you need to communicate. 300 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,400 And then there's a chapter on story, specifically how to use 301 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,520 the structure of story when it comes to structuring your 302 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,600 business presentations. And the books really set up so 303 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,080 that you could have a project in mind and basically work your way 304 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,440 through the chapters. There is a case study that I 305 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,640 introduced early on that we revisit at the end of each 306 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,360 chapter so you can see how the lessons and tactics and 307 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,400 strategies play out in a real world scenario. 308 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,400 But that first section is really all about getting clear on who 309 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,720 your audience is, getting to know them, really communicating 310 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,640 with them in mind, and then planning what you're going to 311 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,000 communicate in a low tech fashion. 312 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,000 This also can be a fantastic place to get feedback from 313 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,960 others, particularly if you want directional feedback. 314 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,400 If there's an important stakeholder or a manager who 315 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,240 could totally change your course of direction, it can be awesome 316 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,360 to show them something that is low tech, right? 317 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,120 It might be sticky notes that have been arranged on a piece of 318 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:23,680 paper or something that you can just talk your stakeholder 319 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,640 through so that they can either say, yes, that sounds great, 320 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,240 you're on track, go execute, or no, let's actually go in this 321 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,920 other direction. And now you've not spent time 322 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,920 finalizing a presentation or report in order to get there. 323 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,560 So can really reduce iterations when it comes to that piece as 324 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,000 well. And then once you have that plan 325 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,080 in place, next section is create. 326 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,000 And in this section of the book, there are chapters devoted to 327 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,440 create one just to bringing the low tech planning into your 328 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,280 tools and really setting up the structure for a presentation 329 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,800 down to really technical things or nitty gritty things like, you 330 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,120 know, how do you choose fonts and set a color palette in your 331 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:07,160 tools? And we have a number of videos 332 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,760 and other things to go along with the book that'll help 333 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,360 people with that process. And then there's a chapter 334 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:16,160 devoted each to developing content with words, content with 335 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,360 graphs and content with pictures and images, with the idea being 336 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,080 that your eventual communication, which is often a 337 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,120 presentation deck, will have some combination of those 338 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,680 things. There are ton of examples baked 339 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,560 in and the chapter on graphs basically takes the most salient 340 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,000 points I would say from storytelling with data and 341 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,520 condenses them into one powerful chapter. 342 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,440 So for people who ask me which book to start with, I always say 343 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,160 start with the yellow one, Storytelling with You, and then 344 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,320 see if you want more on the graph piece and then if so, go 345 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,480 back to the white 1. Then the final section of the 346 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,120 book is Deliver, and this is all about how you can prepare 347 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,120 yourself to communicate powerfully. 348 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,600 From tips on rehearsing your actual content, I share some 349 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,080 things that I do when it comes to practicing aloud and 350 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,720 practicing with slides versus without slides. 351 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,720 And this is I, I present probably the, the whole menu of 352 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,920 things you would potentially want to do for a really 353 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,040 important situation. You know, when it's a regular 354 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,560 meeting or something like that, you would scale back or focus on 355 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,520 maybe one or a couple of these things versus all of them. 356 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,640 There's a chapter on building your confidence and things to do 357 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,240 to become more aware of how you use your voice and how you use 358 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,080 your body and how you can modify those things in really 359 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,360 interesting ways and the impact that that can have on an 360 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,400 audience and how you're delivering a message. 361 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,240 The penultimate chapter of the book is all on crafting your own 362 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760 introduction, which I played around with where to put that 363 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,920 chapter and was sort of happy to find a place for it at the end 364 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,240 of the book or near the end of the book, even though that feels 365 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,760 a little counterintuitive. But it becomes such an 366 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,680 interesting case study where anybody can take it and use it 367 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,000 to apply many of the lessons that are covered through the 368 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,560 rest of the book to a subject that they know very well 369 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,680 themselves. And I found it interesting that 370 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,880 I've read many books on topics in this space and never have I 371 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,760 encountered any material on how to introduce yourself 372 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,080 powerfully. And so I lead readers through a 373 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,880 process of thinking A, you know, over their history of stories 374 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,880 and experiences and work projects, and really being 375 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,440 cognizant about the perceptions that you want to create in the 376 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,640 people to whom you're introducing yourself, whether 377 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,840 it's in an interview or you're networking or at the onset of a 378 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,800 presentation. And then really using those 379 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,640 things together to craft the story of yourself, which is a 380 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,720 really cool thing to do. It's a cool exercise to do 381 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,400 because then you find that you can flex it in all these 382 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,480 different ways of, you know, your sentence introduction 383 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,600 versus you've got 5 minutes to take people through more of a 384 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,640 story, which can be really useful. 385 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,280 And then the final chapter is that actual delivery and tips on 386 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,440 things to do immediately before, during, and after your 387 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,560 presentation. And again, with the idea that 388 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,480 any of these things could be applied to a big presentation 389 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040 you're giving a keynote from on a stage or just an important 390 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,840 business meeting. And you can scale things up or 391 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,880 down depending on how important The thing is. 392 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,040 But probably the more important it is, the more of all of this 393 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,000 stuff you should be doing. And really, the shift between 394 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,520 storytelling with data and storytelling with you is 395 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,040 Storytelling with data focuses almost entirely on the data, 396 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,520 which makes sense. It's all about perfecting the 397 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,680 graph. And it took over, I'd say, what 398 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,800 the past 10-15 years of spending a lot of time teaching people 399 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,080 about how to make graphs. It just has become increasingly 400 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,800 clear that the data, the graph, it's only part of the picture. 401 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,240 The person who's doing the communicating, whether it's 402 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,040 verbally and they're talking through their work or by virtue 403 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,440 of the design or what they put around it in the thing that gets 404 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,000 sent off. But the person is such an an 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,720 important part of that puzzle, and so the more we can think 406 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,080 about ourselves as a communication tool, the more 407 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,160 effective we're going to be when it comes to communicating. 408 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:35,280 Well, thank you for such a complete walk through, right? 409 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,360 So I think as you can listen the audience here, right? 410 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,840 So I think the book is kind of like a full package, right? 411 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,720 So if you think about I can't do storytelling code here has kind 412 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,200 of like outlined from the beginning when you plan the talk 413 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,760 that you wanna do, right? How do you create stuff 414 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,680 including some beautiful, you know, visualization that she 415 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,040 does really well? And then the last one is how to 416 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,520 deliver, right, including how you speak, the confidence and 417 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,200 including the delivery. So maybe we will not be able to 418 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,320 cover all of them, but let's start with the first one 419 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,920 planning. So I don't know about anybody 420 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,840 else, right? I think typically when I start 421 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,080 to plan for my talk, I always straight go into the slides, you 422 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,000 know, maybe Google Slides or whatever slide tool do you use, 423 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,480 right? And just, you know, put on stuff 424 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,120 you mentioned in the in the book and also just now right about 425 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,000 using low tech and also things about, you know, like not being 426 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,960 bogged down by the tools. So maybe tell us why it's very 427 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,280 important that we don't plan just like what I do typically? 428 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,760 I am a big fan of pen and paper and post it notes. 429 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,320 When it comes to low tech planning, there's something 430 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,320 different that happens. It engages a different part of 431 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,840 our brain when you have to actually put pen to paper and 432 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,000 write things down. And then the other cool thing 433 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,920 about is when you take the time to do that, now you've got an 434 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,920 idea that is now a physical thing in the world that you can 435 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,080 look at and assess and move around or group with something 436 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,200 else. And so the process of 437 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,520 storyboarding feels awkward at first if it's not something that 438 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,240 you've been doing. But overtime and with practice 439 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,440 can become both really efficient, but also a really 440 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,960 powerful way to get a jumble of thoughts and ideas out of your 441 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,520 head and bring order to them. Very quickly. 442 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,800 And I think just by virtue of doing that, of being able to see 443 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,200 all of the different things that you could bring into a 444 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,880 presentation or project review that you're doing and then 445 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,680 deciding which ones you're going to focus on is a really useful 446 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,160 reframing. Because I think one of the 447 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,160 things that happens often when we go straight from or an idea 448 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,680 or project to our tools is with that comes this idea that 449 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,240 whatever we create needs to answer any possible question 450 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,000 that might come up. And that's not a great approach. 451 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,640 Whereas if we are storyboarding, right, I'm writing down ideas on 452 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,600 Post it notes with the idea that maybe each of these becomes a 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560 slide in my eventual slide deck. I can rearrange things, group 454 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,680 things together, I can put some structure around them and I can 455 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,640 assess each one to say, does this help me get my main message 456 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,880 across? Is this critical for my 457 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,360 audience? And I can choose to say no. 458 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,360 Maybe it was important for me to look at, it was important for 459 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,600 the analysis, but it if it doesn't serve the needs of my 460 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,800 communication, it means I don't have to spend time developing 461 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,960 content on it. And this is probably the biggest 462 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,600 time saver is because storyboarding upfront can help 463 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,080 eliminate those like 80 a hundred or more slide decks and 464 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,440 get you down to something that is both shorter. 465 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,320 So you have less content you have to develop and you have 466 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,120 more time to make that shorter content really effective. 467 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,880 Is part of the idea when it comes to creating effective 468 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,400 slides is when you're there communicating, you don't want 469 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,400 them to compete with you, then you should think of your slide 470 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,320 as a helpful assistant, right? It's there for if you need to be 471 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,520 able to show something visually so you can turn to it and do 472 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,280 that, or to maybe help keep you on track when it comes to the, 473 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,960 you know, topic or moving from 1:00 to the next. 474 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,840 But not all the information needs to be there if that's why 475 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,520 you were there, to answer questions and address the needs 476 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,480 that come up from your audience along the way. 477 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,360 But a little bit of time spent planning up front can make the 478 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,440 rest of the process a whole lot more efficient and help you 479 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,680 ensure that you create a communication that's going to 480 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,040 work for the needs that you set out to be. 481 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,120 Yeah, I think you brought up a great point, right, Because 482 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,920 typically when we prepare using the tools, the slides in the 1st 483 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,040 place, right, we tend to just put in a lot of data, a lot of 484 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,160 facts, you know, taken from many, many different systems and 485 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,880 we just put it together. There's no storyline, first of 486 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,400 all, right? And you kind of like feel wasted 487 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,360 if let's say what you have collected, you didn't use. 488 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,800 Hard to let go of it, right? You build attachment. 489 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,160 The other thing too is it's really you get a different level 490 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,560 of feedback when you are asking for feedback or getting feedback 491 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,400 on something that looks polished. 492 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,680 And as soon as you go to your tools, things are going to look 493 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,160 a little more polished. And that begs for feedback on 494 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,000 the design. So then you get feedback on 495 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,200 things like the color of your graph and you completely miss 496 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:22,760 the feedback of is this the right data to show in the 1st 497 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,480 place and the directional kind of feedback. 498 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,040 And so that's another thing to keep in mind. 499 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,480 It's when you're looking for more directional big picture 500 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,480 feedback, there's value in keeping things low fidelity. 501 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,000 Have it be a sketch or on paper and you can say you're on it's 502 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,800 or your stakeholders. This is rough. 503 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,640 It's OK. I just want to directionally 504 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760 Orient and us because then you're not going to get feedback 505 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,680 on, you know, the intricacies of the design, which you don't need 506 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,400 at that point. You may need that at a later 507 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240 point, but that can be an important consideration as well 508 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,880 as what do you actually show people to get the kind of 509 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,800 feedback that you want at the point when it's useful. 510 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,160 Yeah, that's also maybe one typical mistake that people did 511 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,920 as well, right? You know, putting the themes, 512 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,720 you know, making look pretty, but actually they don't focus on 513 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,960 the manges, which is the message itself, which one thing that I 514 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,680 want to ask the next, right. So in your book you have this 515 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,480 technique or maybe concept, right? 516 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,600 The three minute story and also the big idea. 517 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,520 So this is how like what kind of content that you want to convey 518 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,920 in your talk or presentation, right? 519 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,080 So tell us how we can use this technique to actually help us. 520 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Yeah, I'll talk about the big idea, which is probably one of 521 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,800 the most useful things that we find when we teach. 522 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,000 It's it's funny because you know, we, we teach workshops 523 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,640 where we'll go into an organization or spend half a day 524 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,720 or a day with a company really teaching about communicating 525 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,160 effectively with data and beyond. 526 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,880 And I think we get brought in a lot of the time for the data 527 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,720 expertise and for that expertise of visualizing and, and yet at 528 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,800 the end of the day or at the end of the session, when we're 529 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,520 asking people what is one thing you're going to do differently, 530 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,440 often times it's a lot of the things that don't have anything 531 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,200 to do with data specifically. It's these general communication 532 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,640 things. It's I'm going to storyboard or 533 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,160 I'm going to use the big idea. So the big idea is it's a single 534 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,280 sentence that is the main thing you need to communicate. 535 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,480 So it should articulate your point of view. 536 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,200 It should convey what's at stake and it should be 1 single 537 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,920 complete sentence. And so we in the books and in 538 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,600 our workshops, we introduce something called the Big Idea 539 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,800 Worksheet, and it basically breaks things down into these 540 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,560 components because it's very difficult to go from everything 541 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,880 you know about a project to a single sentence. 542 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,920 That level of concision is very hard. 543 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,800 But by breaking it up into pieces where the pieces are, 544 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,320 who's your audience? Can you narrow that down to a 545 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,880 single person or a single group of people? 546 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,240 What do they care about? And thinking both from the 547 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,640 positive point of view of what are the benefits or what do they 548 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,720 stand to gain if they act in the way you want them to? 549 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,480 And the flip side of that, what are the risks or the potential 550 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,880 downsides if they don't act accordingly and really takes you 551 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,840 through these pieces. So at the end you have, it's 552 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,800 almost like a puzzle where you've got the components and 553 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,960 you just need to cram it all into a sentence. 554 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,440 And the sentence are the sentence restriction is 555 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,720 arbitrary, but it is purposefully short. 556 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,360 And that is both to enforce concision. 557 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,080 Other details will come in, but that'll be in your supporting 558 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,120 content. But it's also because of the 559 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,560 word smithing and the thought, the critical thinking that you 560 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,880 have to do in order to get it there. 561 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,760 It means you get to know your stuff really well and there's 562 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,600 extreme benefit once you've worked through this and you have 563 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,720 a big idea to then talk through it with someone else. 564 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,560 And the process of them asking you clarifying questions and you 565 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,960 answering them, It just helps you verbalize outwardly so many 566 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,920 important aspects of what you need to communicate that then, 567 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,080 you know, if we think full circle around to the delivery 568 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,080 aspect, even at that point, you are preparing yourself to be 569 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,640 able to talk more eloquently about your work and about why 570 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,000 it's important. And so the these little 571 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,840 practices up front do a lot, I mean they help with the 572 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,720 planning, but they do a lot more than that as well. 573 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,440 Yeah, I think for me, the big idea is definitely one thing 574 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,440 that we all can get good at, especially when you are giving a 575 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,000 presentation or talk, right, because we feel that there are 576 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,080 so many things that we have to convey, right? 577 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,720 But to put it into a single sentence, wow, that's maybe 578 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,280 difficult, at least for me. And I think the worksheet is one 579 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,640 place where we can try to use right and you know, maybe craft 580 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,240 the sentence really, really well. 581 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,200 And you have this three minute story as well, which if we find 582 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,400 one sentence is really difficult, start with like the 583 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,720 three minute story, right? So that you kind of like distill 584 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,280 what are the important things. And from there actually you kind 585 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120 of like bring the big idea. So I think this thing is really 586 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,640 powerful if we can think about it, because sometimes we are 587 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,520 lost in our own narrative. You know, like we just put so 588 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,280 many slides, but we are lost and we kind of like don't convey the 589 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,040 main message that we want the audience to take away, which is 590 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,320 something pretty bad. So the other thing is, I think 591 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,520 I've learned so many other books, right, about this 592 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,800 structure of the story, right? So you mentioned what big idea 593 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,120 is typically advocated, right? So things like the pyramid 594 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,000 principle or bluff, you know, and then also TLDR, right? 595 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,600 So why this structure is so much important? 596 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,920 And do you actually always advocate people to give the main 597 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,800 message straight away? You know, like in the very 598 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,280 beginning? Not always. 599 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,520 So I think when we're when we're talking about different 600 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,520 structures, 1 is to lead with the big idea or the main 601 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,320 message. And I think that is a good idea 602 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,000 when you already have credibility with your audience 603 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,840 or if you aren't sure you're going to have time to get 604 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,160 through everything, you want to make sure you at least start off 605 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,240 with that so you can circle back around to it. 606 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,760 If you have an audience who you know, cares more about the So 607 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,280 what, then how you got there, then starting with the big idea 608 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,160 can be good. I think where it can backfire 609 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,199 and where you might want to take an alternate approach, which can 610 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,480 either be, you know, you share context first and lead up to 611 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,719 your big idea, or it could even be somewhere in the middle 612 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,360 depending on how you want to structure things. 613 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:23,679 But where it could backfire is when you have some fraction of 614 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,480 your audience or maybe the entire audience who is going to 615 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,920 disagree with you. And so if you start off with 616 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,960 that, you can end up at this point straight away where 617 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,520 there's tension and not the good kind of story tension, but the 618 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,040 bad kind of meeting tension where people are agitated and 619 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,159 not on the same page. And so I think if you can 620 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:46,639 anticipate that, then sometimes leading people along the path 621 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,800 that you took to get there, or finding a place where if you 622 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,080 know they're coming in with certain biases or certain 623 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,560 beliefs, finding a place where your belief and theirs are 624 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,480 congruent with each other before you bifurcate off that path into 625 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,600 something that's going to counter it. 626 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,400 Or if you can build your credibility and then bring 627 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,880 people around to it. I think also if it's a highly 628 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,320 charged emotional situation, then you want to be thoughtful 629 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,640 about how you approach that. And again, just back on 630 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,960 storyboarding, this can be excellent things to think about 631 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,880 when you are in that low tech phase. 632 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,200 Because now you can say, all right, but let's take this one 633 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,560 audience member. And I know you know he's going 634 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,520 to be loud and he's going to come in with this particular 635 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,040 frame of mind and he's going to challenge us on this. 636 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,040 If we can anticipate that doesn't mean we move it around 637 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,040 or the way that we bring up these other things 1st, or does 638 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,560 it mean things outside of that completely? 639 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,400 Does it mean that we sit with him ahead of time or separate 640 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,640 from the rest of the group and try to get him on the page or 641 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,240 try to get, you know, somebody who could influence him on 642 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:51,240 board? So it brings up a lot of these 643 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,800 other ideas, and this is really when we're thinking about our 644 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,000 audience up front and how we can make things work for them and 645 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,600 through that, make them work for us. 646 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,440 But where you can be strategic about how you're setting things 647 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680 up so that it's not just about the deck that you're building. 648 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:10,200 It's about how do we make this a successful situation. 649 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,680 And I think for me, that's the bigger thing that I'm trying to 650 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,480 get people to think about through everything is to just 651 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,200 not allow yourself to fall in the habit of doing it the way 652 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,080 we've done it, because we've always done it that way. 653 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,440 But especially for critical situations, thinking about what 654 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,600 are the pieces of the puzzle look like this time? 655 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,080 Who are the players? Are they likely to agree or 656 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,400 where are they going to disagree? 657 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,880 How do I put this all together in a way that's going to 658 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,280 hopefully set me up for success, but also make things work for 659 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,360 the people who I'm trying to change or trying to get to do 660 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,640 something? Because the more we can do that, 661 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,840 the more we can find these middle grounds where we can make 662 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,160 it work for everyone. Yeah. 663 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,320 So I think the insight here is that there's no like one 664 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,320 structure that will work all the time, right? 665 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,480 So please feel free to 1st understand the audience, which I 666 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,840 think you also covered really well in the 1st chapter of the 667 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,680 book, right? So knowing the audience is 668 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:06,120 really, really important. And then maybe the narrative, 669 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,680 how you want to bring it, I think depends on that as well. 670 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,080 So let's go to the next section, which is about creating, right? 671 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,320 So I think we, we have come up with all the plan, the main idea 672 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,640 and maybe the storyboard as well creating presentation slides. 673 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,760 I think many people might like it or might dread for it, right, 674 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,080 Depending on their feel about creativity. 675 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:27,040 How much creativity at play here do you think we should do? 676 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,720 And does our slide need to look pretty? 677 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,800 Great question. So when it comes to creativity 678 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,400 it, it depends. And I think for sure I'm a 679 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,520 proponent of making use of what exists. 680 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,520 So if your company or your team has templates or other things 681 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,080 that you can use, do that because it means there are many 682 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,040 fewer decisions that you have to make when it comes to things 683 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,560 like font and color and those sorts of things. 684 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,920 Does it need to look pretty? So I would say pretty for the 685 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,520 sake of pretty, no. But do we need to spend time 686 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,560 with the visual design of what we're communicating? 687 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,120 Yes, absolutely. There's actually a really 688 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,520 interesting thing that happens when an audience or a consumer 689 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,120 looks at something and they can tell that time and attention was 690 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:21,440 spent on the design details. That actually makes this sort of 691 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,600 implicit contract where the user, the consumer has more 692 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,040 patience and more attention. Maybe if we can translate it to 693 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,080 that for the product. And so just translating that, I 694 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,400 mean and think about it, when you when you have the experience 695 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,560 of even just opening a good product right, where the boxing 696 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,520 or the packaging is thoughtful, you have a different set of 697 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,560 expectations, one for what's coming with it. 698 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,520 You have a different feel towards the product. 699 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,680 We can make excellent use of that when it comes to the visual 700 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,440 design of our graphs and slides as well. 701 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,440 So I would frame it as why would you not want to do that? 702 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,400 And it doesn't mean, you know, making things pretty. 703 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,760 It means paying attention to detail. 704 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:11,040 It means have there be alignment, so clean horizontal 705 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,240 and vertical alignment between different elements. 706 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:17,720 If you think of like text boxes versus a graph versus other 707 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,240 elements you might have on the page, you know, does it look 708 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,720 nice? Is there structure to it? 709 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,920 Is there visual hierarchy where more important things are bigger 710 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,160 or are contrasted in some way so my audience knows to look there? 711 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,440 Is it easy to interact with? Because when we can take the 712 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,600 time to do that, then we're now more likely both to get our 713 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,640 audience to want to engage with it, but then to get them to read 714 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,560 and remember it. And one of the most powerful 715 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,080 things that we can do there is really think about how we're 716 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,560 using words and graphs together. So studies have shown when we 717 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,440 title the slide or the graph with the main take away or a key 718 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,680 take away that we want our audience to know that they are 719 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,920 more likely to remember. That key take away so we want to 720 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,680 think about using words, take away titles so that our audience 721 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,440 knows what to look for when they see the graph. 722 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,240 Using color sparingly is something I've been a an 723 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,400 advocate of for a very long time. 724 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,880 So the audience, you know, they read and know what to look for, 725 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,520 and then they can see in the visual through sparing use of 726 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,160 color or other means of contrast, what they're meant to 727 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,400 see. And these things that you could 728 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,040 call it making it pretty, But I think it's more about making the 729 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,160 visual communication effective. And yes, we should be taking 730 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,200 time to do that because that's where what we need to get across 731 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,840 to our audience is either going to succeed or fail. 732 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,040 So it's worth every minute we spend on it. 733 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,960 Yeah, I think the visual design aspect, I fully agree. 734 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,480 Or even though I may not be always happy doing that, but I 735 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,000 think it's really important because it gives people 736 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,960 attention, you know, and then especially if it's beautifully 737 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,520 kind of like layout, right? Not necessarily the pretty 738 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,720 aspect. I think it kind of like captures 739 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,280 the audience better. And especially sometimes the 740 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,200 main message gets across faster, as well as what you maybe 741 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,480 outline in the other book, right? 742 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,360 Storytelling with data, because sometimes we just put everything 743 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,240 together, looks pretty. But actually the main thing is 744 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,120 actually missing from there, right? 745 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,040 And I think other things like typo color fonts, you mentioned 746 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,880 about it alignment, right? Sometimes people miss this, but 747 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,320 actually it's very important as well. 748 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,600 Let's go through this if. You don't feel particularly 749 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,840 creative, or you don't feel like you're good at this, Look for 750 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,200 examples to emulate. So if you see a well designed 751 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,760 slide from someone else, think about what works well in it and 752 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,400 how you can bring that into your own work. 753 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,840 Yeah, something that you can steal from Cole's book as well. 754 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,080 There are so many examples there. 755 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,480 So let's go to this storytelling with data aspect, right? 756 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,120 So you mentioned sometimes we need to present data, factual 757 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,440 data, numbers, whatever that is, right? 758 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,600 And sometimes in tech, we also need to kind of like maybe 759 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,200 present an incident or some charts where there are a lot of 760 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,960 data that we need to put the message across. 761 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,200 So when I saw your book, actually I was kind of like 762 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,880 laughing, actually, why all my charts by visualization look so 763 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,080 bad compared to what you show in the book, right? 764 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,440 And it's so simplified and all that. 765 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,200 So maybe I think this is very important to convey to the 766 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,280 audience here. How can we present data much 767 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,440 better in a visually appealing manner? 768 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,480 I think a lot of it, again, as with the entire presentation, 769 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,160 when we get down to a specific graph, it's being really clear 770 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,000 on what do you need your audience to know? 771 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,400 What are you trying to get across? 772 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,440 Because when you can put that into words, then that will help 773 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,480 you figure out what kind of graph is going to work. 774 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,120 And I'm a big fan of iterating through different types of 775 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,320 graphs. Any data can be graphed a lot of 776 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,800 different ways. And so seeing what your data 777 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,120 looks like as a bar chart or line graph or a dot plot or 778 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,120 slope graph, cycling through these different types can help 779 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:58,840 you get to know your data better and help you see what view of 780 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,120 your data might work for getting your message across to someone 781 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,760 else. So type of graph would be one 782 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,320 thing, I think identifying and eliminating clutter. 783 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,720 So anything that's visually present that doesn't need to be 784 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,000 or isn't adding informative value. 785 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,760 So when you strip away unnecessary grid lines and 786 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,480 borders, it just leaves you with a cleaner starting point so that 787 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,680 then you can get away with adding things to it. 788 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,640 When we think about adding words in the form of annotations or 789 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,400 creating contrast with color or through other means, you can do 790 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,680 that without it becoming visually overwhelming. 791 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,800 And that is the next thing is to be clear where you want your 792 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,040 audience to focus and do things to the visual design that help 793 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,520 achieve that. So sparing use of color is a 794 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,440 great way to do that. We think of making everything 795 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,600 Gray and then using one or two really strong colors. 796 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,120 And this is where you can type branding in, if that makes 797 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,880 sense. And then really thinking about 798 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,160 story, what's the take away? How do I put that into words? 799 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,960 How do I take this one view of the data now and connect it to 800 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,240 the things around it? So it's really bringing the 801 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,600 narrative piece into the data. Yeah, so I think that's really, 802 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,480 really important, right? Removing clutter. 803 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,680 So I think in the past I used to create chart. 804 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,760 You know, maybe there's so many clutters that I don't even see, 805 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,760 but I only think that it's important, you know, to present 806 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,200 all the data. And I think the cognitive load, 807 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:28,240 right? You mentioned in your book, the 808 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:31,880 cognitive load when people saw that kind of like visualization 809 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,240 is actually a lot, right? And sometimes they are lost. 810 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:36,840 Like what should I pay attention to because there are so many 811 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,120 things in the chart, in the graph itself. 812 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,440 And I think the other aspect that I learned from your book, 813 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,040 right, maybe discourage people from using pie chart, but I 814 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,120 still see so many pie charts out there. 815 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,520 So what is your take away about pie charts? 816 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,480 I think pie charts are. They are more frequently used 817 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,560 than they should be. Typically people humans like 818 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,720 circles for some reason, but we actually our eyes don't do a 819 00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:07,120 great job of attributing value to two-dimensional space, which 820 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,680 means pie charts are hard for us to read. 821 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,040 There are cases where it'll make total sense. 822 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,200 So the use perfect use case for a pie chart is when you want to 823 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,320 show there is a total and you want to show something about the 824 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,760 pieces of that total. But as everyone is familiar 825 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,960 with, as soon as you get to have more than 3 or 4 segments and 826 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,080 you lose the ability to make any sort of reasonable comparisons. 827 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,680 So I always say to people, if you find yourself reaching for a 828 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,240 pie chart, just ask yourself why. 829 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,200 And if you can answer that question, then you've probably 830 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,480 put enough thought into it to use a pie chart. 831 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,040 But really, that's not advice that is specific only to pie 832 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,520 charts. We should be asking ourselves 833 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,360 that every time we are showing data. 834 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,920 Does this make sense the way I'm showing it? 835 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,400 Do I need this data? And we should always be asking 836 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,000 ourselves these sorts of things so that we can again remind 837 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,200 ourselves to be communicating for the people on the other end 838 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,720 of that versus just creating slides and graphs and things for 839 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,360 ourselves. Yeah. 840 00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,640 And plus, there's so many things that you can do in terms of 841 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,720 presenting the data by using bar chart, you know, either 842 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,000 horizontal and vertical as what you kind of like showed in the 843 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,600 book, right. So don't always focus on the 844 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,560 different types of graphs. So it's not the fanciness of the 845 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,640 chart or the graph, but actually like the visual aspect. 846 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,760 Again, the visual aspect, the clutter is more important than 847 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,320 that, right? Actually working on a new book 848 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,160 now and I just finished a section that was titled Bar 849 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,520 charts are almost always a reasonable choice. 850 00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:38,000 Nice. Yeah. 851 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,000 So I think it's really powerful just to consider a bar chart, 852 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,160 but in a different way, right. So one aspect about creating 853 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,240 these kind of a data visualization that I quite 854 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,520 dislike is actually using the tools to create them. 855 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,360 Because I understand like how all these visual design matter, 856 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,040 but actually it may take a while for me to present in that way, 857 00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,120 right? So for people who are 858 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,920 struggling, maybe is there any tools or tips that you can teach 859 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,240 us how we can create these type of charts much better and 860 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:07,520 easier? Yeah. 861 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,360 Well, and again, this is one reason that starting low tech, 862 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,800 even with your graphs and just sketching things on paper can be 863 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,240 useful because you can often sketch things on paper where you 864 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,040 might have this great idea, but then you see it and you're like, 865 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,640 oh, that doesn't actually work. Whereas, you know, would have 866 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,960 taken a long time maybe to build that crazy idea in your tool and 867 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,840 then you become attached to it. So trying out things on paper 868 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,000 first when that makes sense. I think it's also about getting 869 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,040 to know your tools well enough so that they're not constraining 870 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,600 you in unreasonable ways. I will just mention all of the 871 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,880 graphs in all of my books, and really 90 plus percent of what 872 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,080 we do is in Excel and PowerPoint, right? 873 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,560 Because these tools are pervasive, anybody can pick them 874 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,120 up and use them to make a graph, which is a great thing. 875 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,040 Also can be kind of scary. But so it's really about using 876 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,400 your tools, getting to know your tools and using them well. 877 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,840 There is no magic tool that makes all of this super easy and 878 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,760 beautiful. And I think that's because any 879 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,080 tool is trying to meet the needs of so many different scenarios 880 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,120 simultaneously that it's never going to exactly meet any one of 881 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:13,360 those needs. Perfect. 882 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,280 And so get to know your tools, get to understand how you can 883 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,560 iterate through different types of graphs relatively quickly 884 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:22,840 because those can be quick and dirty. 885 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,880 They don't need to be beautiful. It's once you've found the graph 886 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,200 that now you're going to use to communicate something important 887 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,560 to someone else, that's when you want to spend time on the 888 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,880 design. And we have a ton of tutorials 889 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,840 and tools step by step kind of things on the Storytelling with 890 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,080 Data YouTube channel. So you can check that out 891 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,320 because it'd be like the worst kind of training ever where it's 892 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,240 like, you know, then you click here and then you click here, 893 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,920 you click here. But it's not bad in when you can 894 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,600 watch it in a self-directed fashion. 895 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,040 Yeah, I'm so relieved to hear that. 896 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,920 Right. So I'm sure everyone here used 897 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,720 something like a spreadsheet, Excel, PowerPoint, Google 898 00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:57,160 Slides, whatever that is. I think we all can produce, you 899 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,760 know, great graphs just by using those tools, right? 900 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,160 And I think many people are not taught about this since they are 901 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,280 in, I don't know, like in school, in, you know, 902 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,800 university, right, Because we are always driven into the facts 903 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,560 and how we actually come up with the gist out of it, right. 904 00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:14,520 And you wrote another book which is definitely draws data. 905 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,160 So I think you kind of like want to teach children to present 906 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,840 with data. Tell us some more about it. 907 00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:21,680 Yeah. Well, I think in the, you know, 908 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,720 in the past 15 years or so that we've been teaching adults, one 909 00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:28,360 of the things that we often hear people say is some version of 910 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,040 why didn't I learn this sooner? And so I think that combined 911 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,440 with having my own kids and just seeing how they learn and 912 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:43,680 develop language, and they're so curious and their curiosity is 913 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,840 such an amazing foundation for analytical thinking and building 914 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,240 problem solving skills. And so I for a long time had 915 00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,760 been kicking around the idea of trying to bring the visual 916 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,000 language of graphs to a younger audience. 917 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,800 And so my new children's book, Daphne Draws Data, a 918 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,120 Storytelling with Data adventure came out earlier this year, 919 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,960 features a dragon named Daphne, who has this sort of strange 920 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,680 skill for drawing data, basically making illustrative 921 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,400 graphs. And she gets some fun poked at 922 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,160 her by her brother, who says this isn't draggony enough. 923 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,960 And so she leaves her cave and goes on a grand adventure in 924 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,920 search of a place where she can be herself. 925 00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,800 So she travels to the jungle and under the ocean and outer space, 926 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,560 each time meeting some creatures, hearing about a 927 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,800 dilemma that they're facing, and helping them overcome their 928 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:45,600 challenge by collecting and drawing data in these really 929 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,120 pictorial forms. And then she eventually finds 930 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,000 that she is making friends. I won't ruin the ending of the 931 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,600 story only to say that it's a happy ending. 932 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,640 And then the story ends. But the book continues into a 933 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,440 glossary of graphs because the story itself is really just a 934 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,240 fun story. You know, she's drawing graphs, 935 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,280 but there's the word graphs isn't used anywhere in it. 936 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,920 And actually, one of my most fun things is when I have the 937 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,280 opportunity to go and read this to big groups of young students, 938 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,400 because I will, I'll build the graphs piece by piece on the big 939 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,080 screen. And before we reveal Daphne's 940 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,400 response, the kids are sort of vying to try to read the graph 941 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,440 and figure out like, oh, you know, where is the tree where 942 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,960 the bananas have been stolen or there are crabs really faster 943 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,320 than shrimp. And they're able to answer the 944 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,960 questions with the graphs without any explanation of 945 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,240 here's a bar chart, and here's what a bar chart shows. 946 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,800 And so when you build it right, it's just intuitive, which is so 947 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,920 much fun. And so the story itself is just 948 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,480 fun. But then in the glossary, it 949 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,280 goes through the four types of graphs that Daphne uses, bar 950 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,080 charts, line graphs, pie charts, and scatter plots, and gives 951 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,880 more information on what they're useful for, how we read them. 952 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,120 Shares examples from her adventures, and in each case 953 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,680 gives an activity that kids can undertake where they could 954 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,960 collect and draw their own data to answer a question that's 955 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,000 useful for them. So I think the other thing that 956 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,080 I've noticed in the few graphs that my kids have come home 957 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,200 with, they're not very interesting. 958 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,240 And I think we're missing an opportunity to teach kids about 959 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:29,000 the superpower of numbers for really being able to take their 960 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,840 natural curiosity and help them answer their own questions by 961 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:38,240 collecting data and drawing it. That if we can teach that 962 00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:43,040 ability young, I think that could be so powerful for really 963 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,960 fostering the next generation of critical thinkers and problem 964 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,000 solvers in whatever field they go on to pursue. 965 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,640 So yeah, it's it's been a fun project and it's super fun to 966 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,320 see how excited kids get by Daphne and her data drawings. 967 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,880 Wow, I think it sounds really fascinating, right? 968 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,200 I'm actually interested, especially there's a story 969 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,240 aspect, right? You just actually narrate the 970 00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:07,720 story, right? So we can kind of like feel the 971 00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:11,200 build up, you know, like Daphne, the problem that he or she is 972 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,520 having, right? And then up to the end, right. 973 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,720 So I think for people who are interested, I think it's not 974 00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:17,720 just for kids, I assume right, adults. 975 00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:20,200 No, I've had, well, I've had a lot of people say I need to get 976 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,440 this book for my colleagues or yeah, adults saying that, yeah, 977 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,160 this will help me really get my kids to understand what I do for 978 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:28,560 a job. But yeah. 979 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,120 So for anyone who's interested in more there, and you can find 980 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,400 she can be ordered from wherever books are sold. 981 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:37,880 But at daphnedrawsdata.com, there are activities for kids, 982 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,280 support for parents, right? Because I imagine a lot of 983 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,080 people listening here are relatively data savvy, but not 984 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,160 everyone thinks of themselves as being so. 985 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,240 So have some support for parents and then also resources for 986 00:53:49,240 --> 00:53:53,160 educators because one of our big goals is to get Daphne into 987 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,560 primary education schools. And I think one of the reasons 988 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,440 that I'm really excited about introducing graphing earlier in 989 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,440 this manner is math often gets portrayed as being difficult, 990 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,640 boring, and hard and turns kids off at such a young age. 991 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,400 I've seen this with my own kids and their friends already, which 992 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,800 is concerning for me. But I think part of it also is 993 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,640 just this idea that there's a right way and a wrong way, and 994 00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:24,400 when graphs enter the picture, that goes away. 995 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,760 There's not one single right way to do things. 996 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,880 You can bring creativity into it, and actually what you can 997 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,600 learn from people approaching the same or similar data 998 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,320 problems in different ways is really fascinating. 999 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:42,040 And so I love it from the standpoint of it just being more 1000 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,720 accessible and more open to different experiences and 1001 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:47,800 different approaches. Yeah. 1002 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,800 So I think first, I highly recommend Storytelling with Data 1003 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,640 and I assume this book will also be as good, right, Especially if 1004 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,320 you want to teach your kids or maybe someone who is like a 1005 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,880 beginner in their data visualization journey. 1006 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,160 So I think highly check out, highly suggest to check out the 1007 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,280 book. I think that is something that I 1008 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,040 would advise as well. Maybe let's cover the last 1009 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,160 aspect, which is the delivery part, right? 1010 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,480 So you mentioned one thing that you think that doesn't is not 1011 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,000 well covered in so many other resources is about giving 1012 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,040 powerful intro. Maybe give us one, maybe a few 1013 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,840 tips here. How can we bring, you know, a 1014 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,640 more powerful intro, especially in the beginning of our 1015 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:27,000 presentation? Yeah, I think top for me would 1016 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,560 be really thinking about what perception or what reactions you 1017 00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:36,000 want to incite in your audience. For example, if you think about, 1018 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:37,560 you know, you give your presentation or you give your 1019 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,400 introduction, your audience leaves the room and they're 1020 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,200 talking about you, how are they going to describe you? 1021 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,320 What sort of adjectives are they going to use? 1022 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,200 Are they going to say, you know, oh, Henry was, you know, he was 1023 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,080 smart and capable and confident or, you know, what are the 1024 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:55,000 things that you we want? How do you want them to perceive 1025 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,680 you? And it's fascinating to do this 1026 00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,520 with large groups of people, which I've done because you 1027 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,880 might think, or I thought at least, well, everyone's going to 1028 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,680 have the same adjectives. Everyone's going to want to be 1029 00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,520 these things, which is fully not the case. 1030 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,040 Different people, and particularly as they're thinking 1031 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,240 of introducing themselves in different scenarios, have a 1032 00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:14,960 completely different view on this. 1033 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,480 And so this can be an interesting exercise to do 1034 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,120 across teams or in groups as well, and just kind of learn 1035 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,720 from each other through that process, because I think it it 1036 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:27,040 helps remind us that not everybody is thinks the same or 1037 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,760 is motivated by the same things, which is a very useful thing. 1038 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,160 And so be cognizant of, you know, what are maybe two or 1039 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,320 three reactions that you're wanting to create in your 1040 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,560 audience? And then think about your life, 1041 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,080 the experiences you've had, what makes you unique? 1042 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,360 What jobs have you held? But go past the standard things 1043 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,160 that are on your resume to think about. 1044 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,920 What are the things that make you you and then connect those 1045 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,200 things to the perceptions you want to create. 1046 00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,600 And with this, you can use post it notes as well. 1047 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,440 One of my favorite tools. We'll talk about them again, 1048 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,040 where you connect these things together. 1049 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,640 And then that'll help you see of the different experiences you've 1050 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,880 had or the unique things that make you you, right, The 1051 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,840 challenges you faced or the successes you've had. 1052 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,760 How can you connect them and use them to highlight? 1053 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,040 So you're not saying to somebody I'm smart and capable. 1054 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,320 You're showing it through eventually the story that you 1055 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:29,360 tell and then really practicing talking aloud through. 1056 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,520 And this is where you can get comfortable with the 1057 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,480 storytelling aspect of it. And this is where I think you 1058 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,400 could say, you know, this feels awkward always. 1059 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,520 And so instead of imagine yourself in the scenario, 1060 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,520 imagine you're telling this story to a friend or to, you 1061 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,960 know, a long lost cousin or somebody who you know, you're 1062 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,160 trying to bring up to speed on something. 1063 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,360 But where I think that allows you to really think of it as a 1064 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,600 story and how the pieces connect. 1065 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,840 And so in the book, I walk through a way to do this and map 1066 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,200 it out and then actually write the story and talk through the 1067 00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:05,920 story. And then you can decide how to 1068 00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,440 refine or cut things down or trim depending on the situation. 1069 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,040 But it just, it puts us such a different lens on one's self, I 1070 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,440 think because it forces us to try to see ourselves through 1071 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,840 someone else's eyes. And it really comes back to a 1072 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:21,680 lot of what we've been talking about where effective 1073 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,720 communication is not only for you, it's by really trying to 1074 00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,520 meet the needs of your audience or your stakeholders. 1075 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,480 And I think as we think about how we portray ourselves, that 1076 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,000 there's opportunity to make use of that as well. 1077 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,040 Wow. I think I learned about trying 1078 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,840 to think about the reaction or the perception that you want the 1079 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,000 audience to think about, you know, maybe the talk or even you 1080 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,120 about you, right. So I think maybe sometimes we 1081 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,960 just focus on the content, content content and the delivery 1082 00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,920 and the key message, but we forgot like the reaction or the 1083 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,280 emotion that we want to bring the audience after the 1084 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,480 presentation. So thanks for mentioning that. 1085 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,880 And I think I also learned in my previous episode as well, right? 1086 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,800 It's not all about, you know, giving the facts or maybe 1087 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,720 promoting something, right? It's also about self expressing 1088 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,040 yourself, right? So you mentioned about talking 1089 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,560 to a friend or maybe just think what's something unique about 1090 00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,200 you that you can convey to the audience? 1091 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,080 I think this is actually really key. 1092 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,160 Any conversation this day, it will be a miss if we don't 1093 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,560 mention about AI. So what do you think about the 1094 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,200 role of AI in storytelling? Storytelling with data. 1095 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,680 Do you know I did a reading at a bookstore the other evening? 1096 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,560 I read Daphne Draws Data and even there it was like an 8 year 1097 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,080 old boy who his hand up goes up in the air and he asked me about 1098 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,960 Daphne and AI. It really is everywhere, I think 1099 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,720 when it comes to storytelling and AI, I think where AI, where 1100 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,160 I'm hopeful that things can be really powerful is in helping us 1101 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,640 analyze data so that we can really speed up that part of the 1102 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,080 process. Because I mean, I spent many 1103 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:55,400 years, you know, doing hardcore statistics and it takes so much 1104 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,480 time. And so to the extent that we can 1105 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,600 use machines to do that heavy lifting, I think one incredible 1106 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,800 benefit it. Is it then frees up more of our 1107 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,840 time in one? We still need to be very what 1108 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,120 careful consumers of data and learn how to interrogate and ask 1109 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,120 questions to make sure that what we're getting out of it makes 1110 01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,760 sense and is robust. But assuming we get to that 1111 01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,800 point, it should leave us a lot more time for the storytelling 1112 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:30,880 piece and for thinking about how we can make things connect with 1113 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,000 our audience. Also, finding just in my own use 1114 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:38,000 of AI that it can be a really helpful brainstorming partner 1115 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,440 because it comes at things with a different lens and a 1116 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,720 different, I don't know, point of view, which seems like a 1117 01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,000 weird way to characterize a machine. 1118 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,200 But, you know, where my mind might go if I need an example 1119 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,800 for something or I'm working on a story and wanting to figure 1120 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,200 out how the pieces connect, my mind will go in One Direction. 1121 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,360 But what I can say to, you know, ChatGPT or whatever I'm working 1122 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,680 with is you give me 10 ideas for how this could be approached. 1123 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,640 And it does that with such speed and gets you out of your own 1124 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,720 head. Because I think there will be 1125 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:12,040 useful scenarios where we can say things like, I'm facing an 1126 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,880 audience that is like this. And we describe it and we say, 1127 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,080 well, there's, you know, there's this one woman who's kind of 1128 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,240 hard from this standpoint, but there's this other guy who's, 1129 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,200 and we can feed it things that may be able to be a helpful 1130 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,560 brainstorming partner on some of the stickier pieces when it 1131 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,080 comes to how we communicate. I'm bullish that there are going 1132 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,680 to be a ton of benefits. I know there are also dark sides 1133 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,480 and risks that hopefully people smarter than me are spending 1134 01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,280 their time thinking about and guarding against. 1135 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,680 But I'm excited for the beneficial things that we'll be 1136 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,200 able to use AI to do. Yeah, I love the brainstorming 1137 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,200 aspect, right? Because sometimes, especially 1138 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,640 when we're creating presentation, right, So having 1139 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,920 more options, maybe choice of words, maybe how we convey the 1140 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,680 message is actually can be a creative aspect. 1141 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:02,000 And you choose kind of the best way to present your talk, right? 1142 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,200 So Cole, definitely, I think we all learn a lot, at least for me 1143 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:07,960 as well. And I highly recommend your 1144 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:10,680 books, you know, storytelling with you and storytelling with 1145 01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,440 data. And we also have definitely 1146 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,720 draws data. So as we reach the end of our 1147 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,600 conversation, I only have one last question that I would like 1148 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:19,440 to ask you. I always ask this to all my 1149 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,200 guests. I call this 3 technical 1150 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,840 leadership wisdom, but I think for you, you can also spin it 1151 01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,560 into three data leadership wisdom. 1152 01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,320 I guess I'll leave it up to you to decide. 1153 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,840 So three things. So I would say 1, and we've 1154 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,040 touched on some of this already, but one would be don't assume 1155 01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,800 that everybody else is like you recognize that other people have 1156 01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,680 different motivations, different things they care about, 1157 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,960 different biases. Because I think particularly 1158 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:48,320 when we need to influence or drive someone to understand 1159 01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,640 something in a different way, really being able to step 1160 01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,080 outside of ourselves and communicate for that other 1161 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,720 person and with their interests and needs and minds, we'll just 1162 01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,520 set us up to be able to communicate and influence more 1163 01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:07,960 effectively. Secondly, I would say find your 1164 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:09,440 passion. Find something you are 1165 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,480 passionate about and it doesn't have to be in the workplace. 1166 01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,360 Find it and just notice how you are when you talk about it. 1167 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,720 What are you doing with your body language and your facial 1168 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:26,200 expressions and your voice? And think about how you can wrap 1169 01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,080 the best parts of that into how you communicate in a 1170 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:35,120 professional setting as well. Because not every data that we 1171 01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,320 touch, not everything that we need to communicate is always 1172 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:43,440 going to be fascinating. But if we can't genuinely find 1173 01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:48,360 the interest ourselves in it and convey that to others, we're not 1174 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:50,360 going to be able to get anybody to pay attention to what we need 1175 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,640 them to pay attention to. So look for your passion. 1176 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:55,960 Think about how you can fold that into how you're 1177 01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,640 communicating and find the interesting facets of your work. 1178 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,600 And then I think my third would be when you want to influence 1179 01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,880 change and whether this is, you know, you want people to 1180 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,440 declutter their graphs or stop using pie charts or you are 1181 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,400 trying to move people towards some sort of broader change, 1182 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,960 don't tell. This is where you need to show 1183 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:22,600 and really lead by example. And I think if you can emulate 1184 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,240 the change that you want to see in yourself and through your own 1185 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,440 work, then people will see that and you'll be able to influence 1186 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:32,920 better. And I think you take those three 1187 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:37,960 things together and anyone can be an amazing communicator. 1188 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,040 And as we've talked about, being able to communicate effectively 1189 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,720 is really key for getting others to pay attention to us, pay 1190 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:47,680 attention to our work, pay attention to the data and all of 1191 01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,120 the cool things that we've done with it. 1192 01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:52,560 Wow, really beautiful. So I think we all can learn from 1193 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,280 that. I think the message is clear, 1194 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,680 right? Be a better communicator and I 1195 01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,520 think it's really important so if people want to find you, you 1196 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:02,080 know, learn from all your resources. 1197 01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,800 Is there a place where you would recommend us to go to online? 1198 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,360 Yeah, the best place is going to be storytellingwithdata.com. 1199 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,840 There you'll find information on our workshops, our books. 1200 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,600 We have an online community where people can practice and 1201 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,800 exchange feedback. We have a YouTube channel that I 1202 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,000 mentioned. You'll find all of that there 1203 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,000 and a ton of learning resources that I hope everyone will enjoy. 1204 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:27,920 Thank you for that. I'll put it in the show notes, 1205 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,280 right. So I think Cole, thank you so 1206 01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,040 much for your time. I really learned a lot. 1207 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,720 So as I mentioned, right, so I think thanks for spending the 1208 01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,040 time with me today. Thanks Henry, I enjoyed it.