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The documentation is part of the
software. 

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So you have to consider the 
whole user experience that 

3
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they're having with your 
software especially includes the

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experience they have when they 
need help. 

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If a user is even reading 
documentation that a technical 

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writer has produced. 
They're probably already 

7
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:22,300
annoyed. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya. 
We Robin. 

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00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,700
And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

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00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,299
The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

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00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:36,200
practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,300
discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

13
00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:43,900
can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

14
00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:46,800
and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:56,300
So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hey everyone, welcome to another

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00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:58,900
new episode of the tekhelet 
Juneau podcast. 

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00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,000
Very excited to be back here 
again to share with all of you, 

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00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,000
my conversation with another 
great technical leader in the 

19
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,700
industry. 
Thank you for tuning in and 

20
00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:10,300
spending your time with me 
today, listening to this 

21
00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:12,900
episode. 
If you are new to the podcast, 

22
00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:15,800
know that technology, you know, 
is available on major podcast 

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apps, such as Spotify, Apple 
podcast, Google podcast, YouTube

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and many more And make sure to 
subscribe and get notified for 

25
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any upcoming new episode. 
Also do check out and follow 

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technology. 
No social media channels on 

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LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram 
everyday. 

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I post nuggets of wisdom from 
each week's episode, and I share

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them on those social media 
channels to help Inspire us to 

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00:01:39,700 --> 00:01:42,800
get better each day. 
And if you'd like to make some 

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00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,700
contribution to the show and 
support the creation of this 

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podcast, please consider joining
as a patron by visiting 

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technology, not deaf. / Patron. 
I highly appreciate any kind of 

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support and your contribution 
would help me towards 

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00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:02,000
sustainably producing this show.
Every week for today's episode. 

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00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,500
I am happy to share my 
conversation with Helen Scott 

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00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,100
Helens. 
Got is a technical writer and 

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Java developer Advocate at 
jetbrains. 

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She has over 20 years experience
in the software industry, in a 

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variety of roles, such as a 
developer, technical writer 

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product owner and advocacy. 
These days whether you are 

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producing mobile applications 
software as a service, apis 

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software platform, or open 
source project. 

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We all kind of agreed of the 
importance of a good technical 

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documentation and it is, 
sometimes the most underrated 

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part of a software delivery of 
an times. 

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Its importance is only realized 
when users are having problems. 

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00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:47,100
When using your software as such
the role of a technical writer 

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is becoming more and more 
important, especially for a 

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00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:53,300
software produces. 
Seeing company and team and not 

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just technical documentation. 
Technical writing can also cover

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technical content, such as blog 
posts tutorials. 

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Social media posts tweets, Etc. 
In this episode Helen and I 

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discussed many things about 
technical writing such as the 

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technical writer role, 
definition, the traits of a good

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technical writer and how to 
create a good technical content,

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including a few gotchas that. 
Our technical writer needs to be

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aware of Helen, also shared some
Of her content creation and 

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sharing tips and hacks based on 
her popular blog post, which you

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can find on her website as a new
content creator. 

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Myself. 
I personally found those hacks 

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00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:34,700
really useful to help me 
becoming a better content 

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creator going forward. 
Another thing that Helen shared 

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with me is the concept of 
community mentoring, which was 

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quite new to me before this 
conversation. 

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And she explained how having 
Community mentoring program, can

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be helpful for the mentee, the 
mentor and the See all together.

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00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,500
And if any of you are interested
in this kind of program and 

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would like to find a Community 
member and that you think I can 

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00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:00,800
help you. 
Please feel free to drop me a 

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00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,500
message and I'll be more than 
happy to discuss with you. 

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00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:07,200
To see how I can help you based 
on my experience and knowledge. 

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I hope that you will enjoy this 
great episode. 

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Please. 
Consider helping the show in the

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00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:16,600
smallest possible way by leaving
me a rating and review on Apple 

76
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podcast and other podcast apps 
that allow you to do. 

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00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,200
So those ratings. 
Reviews are one of the best ways

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00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,000
to get this podcast to reach 
more listeners and hopefully the

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00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,500
show gets featured on the 
podcast platform. 

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00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,700
I'm also looking forward to 
hearing any comments and 

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00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:36,700
feedback on the social media or 
you can also directly send to me

82
00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:39,500
at technology. 
You know, that death / feedback.

83
00:04:39,900 --> 00:04:43,800
So let's get the episode started
right after our sponsor message.

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Hey everyone, welcome to another
episode of The Faculty Journal. 

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Today. 
I have a special guest with me. 

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She is actually an expert in 
technical writing. 

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She's been doing this for a 
number of years. 

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Interesting enough, her 
background started from a Java 

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developer background, and she'll
probably tell a story why she 

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00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,000
switched to technical writing 
and intersecting with Java again

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00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:37,600
lately in jetbrains. 
So her name is Helen Scott. 

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00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,800
So Helen, welcome to the show. 
Very happy to see you here. 

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00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,300
I Henry. 
Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm really looking forward to 
this chat today. 

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Thank you. 
So Helen to introduce yourself 

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00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:49,900
to the audience. 
Maybe you can tell us a little 

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bit more about you. 
Your career, any highlights 

106
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turning points and things like 
that. 

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00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:56,000
They're worth to share for 
everyone. 

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Sure. 
It's been a little bit of a 

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warranty journey. 
I started off when I kind of 

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typical path with a degree in 
computer science and we did 

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00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,100
Joffrey University. 
So we're talking late 90s now 

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and Java was very new at the 
time. 

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So I graduated from University 
and I was quite young and 

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arguably quite naive and I went 
straight into the first job that

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00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,000
seemed to be the right job, 
which was Java programming and I

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had a really hard time and I 
really struggled I actually left

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that job after I think it was 
less than a couple of years 

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00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,700
because I just wasn't having a 
good time. 

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So I left, I went out and took a
little bit of a career break. 

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I went out to South Korea and 
taught English for a year 

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because I didn't know what I 
wanted to do with my life. 

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Whilst I was out there. 
Some friends said, why don't you

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try technical writing? 
We think you'd be good at it 

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and, you know, friends always 
have your best interest at 

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heart, don't they? 
So, I listened to them and they 

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were right, so I came back. 
And I took my first job as a 

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00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,600
junior technical writer up in 
near Oxford and I wasn't there 

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00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,700
for very long. 
I Was Made redundant, but it 

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00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:03,300
really taught me that I felt at 
home with technical writing. 

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I could create content. 
I could still work in software 

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development that I was really 
passionate about. 

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But I was creating content that 
I, well, a felt like I was good 

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at and be really enjoyed. 
So I moved on to various well, 

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two or three, technical writing 
careers. 

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After that or two. 
Writing roles, I should say 

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after that the settling down 
eventually in the north of 

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England throughout that time. 
I really kind of built up a 

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passion for what I believed to 
be assets. 

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I suppose of a good technical 
writer. 

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So working across software 
development teams, really 

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focusing on the relationships 
that you have with the 

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developers. 
Because, you know, two hours 

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00:07:38,907 --> 00:07:41,400
before release the last person 
they want to see as a technical 

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00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,400
writer. 
I focused on making sure that I 

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was thinking, like an end user. 
So I was kind of a proxy of the 

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end user, so I was thinking, 
okay, if this is complicated 

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Dated, then the end users 
probably going to find it 

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00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:55,300
complicated equally. 
Always making sure that I 

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00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:58,400
downloaded the night leaves and 
poked it like the testers poked 

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00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,800
it, obviously, they're way 
better at the poking that I was.

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00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,800
But from the point of view of a 
user, some would come along, and

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00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,700
go. 
What does that button do and 

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00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:08,300
then go home that button? 
Didn't do what I expected it to 

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00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:10,300
do. 
That's interesting and feeding 

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00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:13,200
that back and raising a bug. 
So being a very fully fledged 

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00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,100
and functioning member of the 
development team, whilst 

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00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:19,700
creating this content. 
I stayed doing that till 2019 so

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00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:23,200
fairly recently identified. 
Took an internal pivot to a 

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00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,300
product owner role because for 
various reasons, I decided that 

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00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:29,700
I wanted a little bit of a 
change and it looked fun. 

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00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,299
And I did that role and I 
enjoyed that role. 

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00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:35,500
It taught me, what I'd liked, 
but it also taught me what I 

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00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:39,000
missed and what I really missed 
was creating content. 

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I also, in that role was only 
working with one scrum team. 

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00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:45,300
I missed working Across The 
Wider Department, which I just 

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00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:48,800
didn't see coming at all. 
I really missed that interaction

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00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,500
with a wider group of people. 
So we're up to March 20, 20. 

168
00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:56,800
We're into lockdown one 
Groundhog Day over here. 

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00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,900
I then got chatting to my 
colleague. 

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00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:02,100
Trisha G, who had known from 
University. 

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00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,000
Actually. 
She encouraged me to apply for 

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00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,900
the role at jetbrains as a Java 
developer Advocate. 

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00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:10,100
And I said, but I haven't 
programmed in Java in 20 years 

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00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600
and she said, yes, but you have 
all these other skills that we 

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00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,700
need in advocacy and you can 
learn the Java stuff. 

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00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:19,100
You know, it's just a skill at 
the end of the day. 

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00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:22,500
So once again, I To, and I 
applied. 

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00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:26,400
And I got the job. 
So I now get to do all the stuff

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00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,000
that I did as a technical writer
because I still get to create 

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00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,500
all the content. 
It's just to a much, much wider 

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00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:37,000
audience and equally, I get to 
work with the community rather 

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00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,200
than just scrum teams in a 
business where it's like a 

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00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,700
bigger version of that. 
And I get to pick up Java again 

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00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:46,400
after 20 years with arguably a 
lot more life experience under 

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00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,900
my belt that I perhaps had a 
kissing 90s and equally ever. 

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00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,800
Very supportive team and 
Community around me. 

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00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,300
So yeah, a little bit of a windy
Journey, but they have it. 

188
00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,600
So I'm interested when I heard 
you said that your friend 

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00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,600
initially advise you to go into 
technical writing. 

190
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,600
So, do you know what your friend
saw in you that they felt you 

191
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,400
are a good fit for technical 
writing? 

192
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,900
I think because these friends 
were friends that I'd gone to 

193
00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:16,900
University with and I had done 
very well in my end of your 

194
00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:18,900
assignment. 
I've got a first demand of your 

195
00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:21,800
assignment and I'd helped them 
with their Your assignments as 

196
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,700
well and the same way that 
they'd helped me on the 

197
00:10:23,708 --> 00:10:27,700
programming front was like to me
that stuff was relatively easy, 

198
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,300
whereas programming might as 
well have been rocket science. 

199
00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:33,800
So I think because they could 
see that I Not only was good at 

200
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,200
creating the content but I 
enjoyed creating the content and

201
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,700
I enjoyed thinking like the user
and structuring it, how I would 

202
00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:42,500
want to read the content and 
making sure that it's correct 

203
00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,900
and it flowed nicely. 
So I think that I have a feeling

204
00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:48,400
that was probably why they 
suggested technical writing. 

205
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,000
So if we can go deeper into 
technical writing, first of all,

206
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,100
what do you think is the 
definition of technical writing?

207
00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:57,100
Because these are so many people
can write. 

208
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,700
There are so many things 
technical, but what is the mix 

209
00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,600
between these two? 
As a definition? 

210
00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:04,900
That is an excellent question. 
I have a little bit of a 

211
00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:07,000
love-hate relationship with the 
job title. 

212
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,200
Technical writing. 
I do question a lot. 

213
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,400
What's technical about technical
writing because you don't say, 

214
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,900
I'm going to be a technical 
program error or a technical 

215
00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:16,800
product owner or a technical 
tester yet. 

216
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,300
We have this Oddity of a 
technical writer, which I have 

217
00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:22,300
never fully understood myself. 
If I find it a little bit 

218
00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:25,800
strange, so definition of a 
technical writing or technical 

219
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,600
writer. 
I would say, is somebody who is 

220
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,100
just forget the word technical 
from an it is, somebody who 

221
00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:33,400
works with software development 
teams. 

222
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,300
It is somebody who can think 
like a customer and Champion the

223
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:38,700
customer. 
Internally. 

224
00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:42,600
It is somebody who can pause. 
I'm not even going to say 

225
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,300
technical information, just 
pause information from 

226
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:47,800
development. 
It is somebody that can take a 

227
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,500
bunch of inputs that come in at 
various times. 

228
00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:52,300
And at the Various levels. 
Pause. 

229
00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:55,600
What is important, pause? 
How that needs to be presented 

230
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,000
to the user and then bring it 
all together into 

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00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,900
customer-facing content. 
Alongside the other inputs such 

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as the voice of the company and 
any brand considerations that 

233
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:09,000
you need to take into account. 
So, it's pretty a good 

234
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,700
definition. 
I would say, like, you have to 

235
00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:13,400
think like a customer, first of 
all, because the consumer of the

236
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,400
content definitely is the 
customer or the customer facing 

237
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:17,900
side of it. 
And then, yeah, there's this 

238
00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:22,200
bridge between the development 
side and also the So let me talk

239
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,800
about technical writing content,
write the content itself. 

240
00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:28,400
What are some of the formats? 
I mean these days, there are so 

241
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,300
many different types of formats,
right? 

242
00:12:30,700 --> 00:12:32,000
Yeah. 
Is there any specifics? 

243
00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:36,200
So they can be broadly split 
into two groups online and 

244
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,600
especially call it offline. 
There are a number of companies 

245
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,400
out there that are still 
reluctant to put their 

246
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,800
documentation, you know serve it
publicly facing the vast 

247
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,100
majority of documentation that I
created, as a technical writer 

248
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,800
is still behind not pay walls, 
but I've actually sent to the 

249
00:12:51,808 --> 00:12:54,800
customer directly. 
It's not publicly available and 

250
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,300
there can be a number of reasons
for that, especially in certain 

251
00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:01,700
industries such as defense or 
customers are nervous to put 

252
00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:04,900
that kind of collateral online, 
because it may give competitors 

253
00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:06,800
an advantage. 
That's another one that I've had

254
00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:09,700
leveled at me and I've pushed 
for it to be available, my take 

255
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,400
on, that is from a documentation
point of view. 

256
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,600
If you're going to write good 
documentation and you want it to

257
00:13:15,608 --> 00:13:18,500
be helpful to the user, you have
to remember that if a user is 

258
00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:22,100
even reading documentation that 
a technical It has produced 

259
00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,400
they're probably already 
annoyed. 

260
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,400
There are a couple of exceptions
to that like release notes, but 

261
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,100
they are probably already 
annoyed because I don't know 

262
00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:33,600
about you, but even me as a 
15-year technical writer 

263
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,500
background, I don't want to read
the documentation. 

264
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,200
If I can't get it to work. 
I'm annoyed. 

265
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,800
The software's failed. 
May I don't want to go and click

266
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,100
F1. 
No, I'll click every other 

267
00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:46,700
button first and then I'll sulk 
and I'll click F1. 

268
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600
I think when you put yourself in
that mindset and you think like 

269
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,600
the user and then the user Has 
to jump through another hoop of 

270
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,500
authentication, to potentially. 
Look at the documentation. 

271
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,700
That's really frustrating for 
them and not a great user 

272
00:13:58,700 --> 00:13:59,900
experience. 
And ultimately, the 

273
00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:01,500
documentation is part of the 
software. 

274
00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,300
So you have to consider the 
whole user experience that 

275
00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:05,900
they're having with your 
software. 

276
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,500
In fact, especially includes the
experience they have when they 

277
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:12,900
need help, right? 
For me personally, I would 

278
00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:14,800
probably not go into the 
documentation. 

279
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,800
First of all, I would just go to
Google or stackoverflow. 

280
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,800
Hopefully, the technical 
document itself is the first, 

281
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:24,400
Top pages on Google, right, if 
something hasn't hidden it. 

282
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,700
Yes, right. 
So tell me in the first place, 

283
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:29,500
right? 
Your friends, identify you as a 

284
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:32,500
good technical writer, but 
people out there who are doing 

285
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,600
some sort of role as a technical
writer as well. 

286
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,400
What do you think? 
Are some of the good traits of a

287
00:14:38,408 --> 00:14:41,000
technical writer? 
Is it more like the language 

288
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,400
writing formal English and 
things like that or customer 

289
00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:48,500
empathy that ever makes 
inquisitive is the first one 

290
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:50,800
that Springs to mind you have to
want to poke. 

291
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,700
Things. 
You have to have a desire to 

292
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:56,700
find out how stuff works. 
You have to want to learn. 

293
00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:59,500
You have to want to Champion the
customer. 

294
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,800
You have to care, fundamentally,
you have to care about the 

295
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,400
software. 
Because if you yourself, can't 

296
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,200
figure the software out, or 
don't understand how the 

297
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,500
software is working. 
And I mean every single bit of 

298
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,400
it, then how are you going to 
document it correctly? 

299
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,600
How can you possibly get enough 
information into the 

300
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,200
documentation for the customer 
if you yourself, do not 

301
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,800
understand what's going on and 
that? 

302
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:25,000
Is incredibly hard at times 
because there's some, certainly 

303
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000
some enterprise software that 
I've worked on that. 

304
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,300
I've frequently been like, yeah,
I don't get it and I've said 

305
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:31,900
that and I've gone back and got 
ya now. 

306
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:34,900
I still don't get it and develop
as a sat down with me for hours 

307
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,200
and explained. 
Yeah, but it's still not 

308
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,000
completely clear. 
I'll be honest. 

309
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:41,500
So that brings me to my second 
point, you have to have 

310
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:45,200
excellent communication skills 
because you have to put the 

311
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,900
whole puzzle together. 
And let's say the puzzle every 

312
00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:51,400
single day of that's working on.
This has a piece of the Puzzle. 

313
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,300
They know that piece of puzzle, 
inside out, but you have to go 

314
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,300
and make the jigsaw. 
You have to get all those 

315
00:15:57,300 --> 00:15:58,600
pieces. 
You have to put them together, 

316
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,800
and you have to understand each 
one at a level, that is good 

317
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,400
enough for the customer. 
You're never going to understand

318
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:05,900
it to the level of the 
developer. 

319
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:08,900
I expect because they are going 
to have an additional 

320
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,500
understanding at the code level.
That is not relevant for the end

321
00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:14,300
user. 
But you yourself need to pull it

322
00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:17,000
all together. 
You need to be inquisitive. 

323
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,400
You need have excellent 
communication skills. 

324
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,700
You need to have good 
relationship skills because 

325
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:25,000
Developers are busy people. 
So it's something that's quite 

326
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,400
interesting. 
I certainly found throughout my 

327
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,000
career when you're working on a 
it doesn't matter. 

328
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,500
Whatever size of Team. 
It is everybody's different and 

329
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:34,500
everybody likes to be approached
in a different Manner and 

330
00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:37,400
everybody likes to manage their 
time differently. 

331
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,300
Some developers don't mind if 
you, this is obviously 

332
00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:42,400
pre-pandemic. 
They don't mind if you just rock

333
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,400
up at their desk and say can I 
just ask you a quick question, 

334
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,400
please? 
Because I'm a bit stuck. 

335
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:49,700
They don't mind that at all. 
Whereas other developers much 

336
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,300
prefer a more formal approach. 
Roach of get half an hour of 

337
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:55,500
your time next week to have a 
chat about this feature because 

338
00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:57,700
I don't really get it. 
You have to be very comfortable 

339
00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:00,700
saying, I don't get it. 
That's probably a statement. 

340
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:04,599
I've said a lot in my career. 
You have to be very good at 

341
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,500
stakeholder management as well. 
So again, as a technical writer,

342
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,800
your glue, you're in the middle 
of a process to one side. 

343
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,900
You've got software, you've got 
development teams to the other 

344
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,000
side. 
You've probably got a bunch of 

345
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,000
stakeholders that have a vested 
interest in making sure that 

346
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,500
what you create. 
It's good and it's correct as 

347
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,000
what the business wants. 
So, over here, on this 

348
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,400
stakeholder side. 
You might have people in the 

349
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,800
product team, who want to check 
your documentation. 

350
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,700
You might have other people who 
have a more strategic view of 

351
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,700
the development Direction, maybe
people who work on the 

352
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:39,300
architecture, maybe product 
managers who may want to review 

353
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:41,000
documentation. 
I've even had people in 

354
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,200
marketing wanting to review 
documentation. 

355
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,900
So you have to manage all their 
timelines as well, because as we

356
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,800
all know, software, timelines 
are quite an interesting beast 

357
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,700
and you're just a A cog in a 
very very big wheel at that 

358
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:54,900
point. 
So you have to keep an eye on 

359
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,400
the wider landscape of where's 
everything tracking. 

360
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,800
Are you tracking? 
Okay. 

361
00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:01,600
I'll be in a situation where 
actually you need to be raising 

362
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,300
a risk and saying this is a 
massive, massive change late in 

363
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:06,700
the day. 
Therefore. 

364
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:08,700
There's a risk that the docs 
aren't going to be done. 

365
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,200
What do you want to do about 
that? 

366
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,600
So you have to kind of be 
everywhere all at once. 

367
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:17,800
No everything all at once. 
But it's all about knowing it at

368
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,600
the right level. 
You're not going to be able to 

369
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,800
Deep dive to That's why you've 
got a whole team working on the 

370
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,300
product. 
But you need to have a decent 

371
00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,300
understanding across the board, 
to be able to document it 

372
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,100
communicator, and make sure that
it's what is going to be best 

373
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,100
for the customer. 
So it seems like a lot of skills

374
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:38,300
that are required and I like in 
the beginning you mentioned, 

375
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:40,100
when you did your technical 
writing. 

376
00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:43,200
Sometimes you download nightly 
builds or the Night Live 

377
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,000
software version. 
And also you mentioned about 

378
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,700
when you describe about the role
itself. 

379
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:51,900
The role is expected to have an 
understanding of of how you use 

380
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:54,900
the system as a user point of 
view, technical product can be 

381
00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:56,800
many things, right? 
Could be just a software 

382
00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:00,100
software service or it could be 
a platform or it could be an 

383
00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:02,400
open source project. 
Does it mean that the technical 

384
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,100
writer also need to have a 
technical background? 

385
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:07,400
In a sense that they are able to
use the product? 

386
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,800
And to n-no this for me falls 
into the same bucket as learning

387
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,100
Java or learning any technical 
skill. 

388
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,200
It's a skill. 
You can learn it. 

389
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,600
It's one of my frustrations 
about seeing job specs like need

390
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,900
to be an expert in this this 
This this and this you can learn

391
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:24,400
that stuff. 
It's great. 

392
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:25,800
If you're an expert in some of 
it. 

393
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,600
I'm sure that will really help 
your application, but it goes 

394
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,300
back to the notion of a 
technical writer technical 

395
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,400
Writers. 
Come from all walks of life. 

396
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:36,400
I've seen technical Writers come
from computer, science, 

397
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,200
backgrounds, and programming 
background such, as myself from 

398
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,900
testing backgrounds, from 
English, language, backgrounds 

399
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,100
from straight up communication 
backgrounds. 

400
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,900
I've known a technical writer 
transfer in from a civil servant

401
00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:50,600
a government role here in the 
UK. 

402
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,700
Anybody who is passionate about 
communication and creating 

403
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:59,600
content that helps the user can 
be a technical writer write. 

404
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:01,800
So we have mention about the 
role itself. 

405
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,100
So how about the content itself?
Is there any good element of a 

406
00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:09,600
good piece of technical content?
Make sure it's cracked. 

407
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,800
I tell various sarcastic jokes 
as a technical writer. 

408
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,900
You won't hear anything about 
your documentation and less. 

409
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:19,700
It's wrong. 
Believe me, then you'll hear 

410
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,300
you'll never hear if your 
Communication is correct. 

411
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:24,600
But if it's wrong, you'll hear 
about it. 

412
00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,700
And you'll hear about it from a 
number of sources, which is both

413
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:29,900
great because it means, okay, 
someone read it. 

414
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:31,300
And they're like, yeah, it's 
wrong. 

415
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:34,300
So, try and try and make sure 
it's correct. 

416
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,900
And it goes back to what I was 
saying about. 

417
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:39,500
You have to learn everything to 
a good enough level to be able 

418
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:41,900
to document it for the customer.
You are only human. 

419
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:45,000
You will make mistakes people 
reviewing, your documentation 

420
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,600
will make mistakes. 
Ultimately. 

421
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,700
It's your documentation. 
It's on you. 

422
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:50,400
You'll make mistakes in the same
way. 

423
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,100
So, software has bugs. 
It's just the way of the world. 

424
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,900
So try and make sure it's 
correct, except it won't always 

425
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,400
be correct documentation rots 
really quickly as well. 

426
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:04,100
So especially documentation that
is not online because if you are

427
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:08,800
still some companies are putting
out PDFs as their documentation.

428
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,700
As soon as you release that 
documentation that PDF leaves, 

429
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,600
it's at date and I know that 
sounds awfully brutal and a 

430
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,400
little bit dramatic but 
effectively it is it's out of 

431
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,700
date. 
You can't update that PDF. 

432
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,800
I sitting in their inbox, you're
done, and you're especially 

433
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,400
done, if it's wrong. 
So I would say, if you are still

434
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,800
creating PDF content, try and 
move to some sort of online 

435
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,900
content because it gives you 
much more control to updated. 

436
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,500
Good documentation. 
Also make use of layering. 

437
00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:40,000
So information density. 
I think is a really important 

438
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,200
Point here and it goes back to. 
If the customer is reading your 

439
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,200
documentation. 
They are probably annoyed. 

440
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,700
So you need to give them the 
right documentation at the right

441
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,600
time and no more. 
I mean, you may know lots more 

442
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,200
about the product and you may be
very tempted to say also, 

443
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,500
there's this really cool 
feature. 

444
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,300
If you do blah, blah blah, they 
don't care. 

445
00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,900
Just give them what they want to
know when they want to know it. 

446
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,200
What you can do though is you 
can take advantage of layering 

447
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,100
so you can layer your content. 
So you can use things like links

448
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,800
and signposting to say if you 
want to find out more about this

449
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,100
super cool feature that I really
like click here and that allows 

450
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,500
your reader to explore at their 
Pace on their time scale. 

451
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,600
So that's a really useful 
technique. 

452
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,100
Another one. 
I think it's the difference 

453
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:25,900
between what's really obvious 
and what's valuable, and it's 

454
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:27,900
very easy. 
And I know I fall into this trap

455
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,700
in the past. 
It's very easy to document the 

456
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:34,200
obvious and sometimes you do 
that because you want the 

457
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,900
documentation to be complete. 
And even if one feature is 

458
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:39,600
really, really, really really 
obvious you as a technical 

459
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,400
writer think, but it's on the 
page so I should put it in the 

460
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,000
documentation because there's a 
thing about completeness going 

461
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,500
on, but equally if it's really 
obvious you don't need to 

462
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:52,800
document it. 
And it takes, I think it took me

463
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,500
quite a lot of experience before
I kind of realized. 

464
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,300
I don't need to document that 
it's okay. 

465
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,200
Valuable versus obvious. 
The one that comes to mind and I

466
00:23:02,208 --> 00:23:06,400
think will be most relatable is 
frequently asked questions. 

467
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,200
It's drives me mental. 
A good frequently. 

468
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,100
Asked questions are very, very 
rare. 

469
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,100
So if you are asked to create 
frequently asked questions, make

470
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,800
sure they're the right ones 
because there is nothing more 

471
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,300
infuriating. 
For user when they're going 

472
00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:25,000
through a process and says, have
you checked our frequently asked

473
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,200
questions and they have a 
question and it's not there. 

474
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:32,400
So really think long and hard 
about creating frequently asked 

475
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,600
questions go to your support 
department and say what 

476
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,300
questions do you get asked? 
Because they'll say ha actually 

477
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:42,400
we get asked x y, and Zed quite 
often, but we never get asked 

478
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,700
this one. 
Okay, take that one out and put 

479
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:47,200
X Y and Z in. 
Give your users a Fighting 

480
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,200
Chance because if your 
frequently asked questions are 

481
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,600
not, Frequently asked questions.
You're going to really annoy 

482
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,700
your customer base. 
So make sure they're correct. 

483
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,800
Make sure they are valuable and 
you're documenting the right 

484
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,600
things, use your company's brand
voice. 

485
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,400
That's one that most tech 
writers, usually, just have to 

486
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,700
fall in line with, it doesn't 
need to be dry. 

487
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,200
Not all companies have dry 
branding but be very careful if 

488
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,500
you're going to deviate too far 
from that. 

489
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:15,900
Especially as you know, 
something like slang definitely 

490
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:17,800
doesn't translate. 
Well, so always consider 

491
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:20,500
translation costs, especially if
you're a global company. 

492
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,000
Even if you're not a global 
company consider translation 

493
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,900
costs consider how readable your
content is as well. 

494
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:29,300
Remember the language that 
you're writing in everybody 

495
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,100
reading your content that might 
not be their first language. 

496
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,100
So don't go and create 
documentation that is littered 

497
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:38,400
with words that are not in 
common usage. 

498
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,000
It's just not cool. 
Make sure it's up to date. 

499
00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,500
You signposting, make sure it's 
not muddled and confused. 

500
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,600
I've seen some documentation 
that's just muddled and 

501
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,500
confused. 
I was going to say use headings.

502
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:51,900
That's very print-based, but you
can Do that with online based as

503
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,600
well structure, get a pen and 
paper, work out, how you're 

504
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,700
going to structure the 
documentation, especially if 

505
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:58,600
you're in the privileged 
position of creating the 

506
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,600
documentation from scratch, 
which often you are because 

507
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,200
technical writers are not the 
first role that most startups 

508
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,100
think of. 
So, they go home at some point. 

509
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:09,700
We need a technical writer and 
then this technical writer comes

510
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,000
in expecting to work on 
documentation and gets, told 

511
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,700
yet. 
There, isn't any documentation, 

512
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,300
you're creating it from the 
ground up and that can be a 

513
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:19,900
pretty fun as well as slightly 
stressful Journey. 

514
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:24,000
As you were sharing about the 
correctness and also the FAQ 

515
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,300
part, right? 
So I myself personally could 

516
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:29,100
relate back to some of my 
previous experience trying to 

517
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:31,500
find out Solutions. 
But actually yeah, the document 

518
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:33,200
is not complete. 
It's missing. 

519
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,900
And also when I go to FAQ, 
there's nothing that maybe 

520
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:39,000
stack, Overflow is much better 
place to find the solutions. 

521
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,800
That's another probably Trend. 
I don't know whether this is a 

522
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,900
latest Trend or not. 
I see that some technical 

523
00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:48,100
document or technical content 
that actually embed, some kind 

524
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:51,500
of a technical capability. 
Most likely is that Like API 

525
00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:55,600
documentation where you can 
actually run like test this API,

526
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,200
you can put some HTTP parameters
or even sometimes from the other

527
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,000
side which is from the library 
itself. 

528
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,900
Whenever there's an error or 
something. 

529
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,900
They could actually link out to 
a document outside. 

530
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,800
Maybe it's online or something 
like that. 

531
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,600
I think that is kind of like a 
good experience, especially from

532
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,000
development point of view. 
What's your take on that? 

533
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,900
I like it for the exact reason 
that you just said, it's a good 

534
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:17,400
experience from a development 
point of view. 

535
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,200
And at this point you're the end
user. 

536
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,600
So if it's a good Surprise for 
you, then as far as I'm 

537
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,800
concerned, it's a good thing. 
Maybe that's what a technical 

538
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,900
writer, is anything that makes 
the Journey of the end-user 

539
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,000
better. 
And more joined up, has to be a 

540
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,200
good thing. 
Again. 

541
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,900
If there's inline documentation,
certain products, use inline, 

542
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:40,800
documentation a lot. 
The little question marks, 

543
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,900
you'll see on certain web forms 
or interfaces. 

544
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000
They could be incredibly 
powerful because it goes back to

545
00:26:46,008 --> 00:26:48,100
what I said, a little while ago.
It's the right amount of 

546
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:50,100
information. 
We've only got a little small 

547
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:52,200
space. 
Fit it into at the right time 

548
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,600
because the question marks next 
to the field that they want to 

549
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,000
look up and know more. 
And if you want more, you can 

550
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,400
put a little hyperlink in and 
say here's where you find out 

551
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,900
more information. 
But yeah, techniques like that. 

552
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,500
Anything that can lower that 
barrier between or even take the

553
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:08,500
burial way to the users, not 
annoyed because at that point 

554
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:10,500
they're just like can I just 
confirm that? 

555
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,200
This is what I think it is and 
if the answer is, yes, you have 

556
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,700
averted user crisis. 
You have averted, 10 minutes of 

557
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:20,200
cruising along stack Overflow. 
You have given them. 

558
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,700
You've Elevated what they 
thought or you set them on the 

559
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,600
right track, and you've done it 
without really interrupting 

560
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,300
their day. 
So good job. 

561
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,900
So in your personal point of 
view, maybe you can give us some

562
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:34,400
examples of great technical 
documents may be from a brand or

563
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,500
from an open source project as 
an example for us to refer to. 

564
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:42,600
So I'm not going to do that and 
I'll tell you why I gave this a 

565
00:27:42,608 --> 00:27:46,000
little bit of thought and I 
decided that actually I was 

566
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,500
going to be really true to 
myself. 

567
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,800
I'm going to name one company 
that I think have great 

568
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,600
technical documentation. 
Asian, but I think it's a bit of

569
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,300
a cop-out and that companies 
madcap flare while madcap the 

570
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:56,900
company because they create 
madcap flare, which is a very 

571
00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:00,000
common authoring tool that I 
absolutely love using. 

572
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,200
So their documentation is very, 
very good as you'd probably 

573
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800
expect making a product for 
technical writers. 

574
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,600
They have a very harsh audience 
in that respect. 

575
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,600
But when I gave this some more 
thought I realized that to be 

576
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600
true to myself and you said it a
number of times already on this 

577
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,800
call Henry documentation. 
That is potentially the most 

578
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,300
value is often crowd-sourced. 
And it is the likes of stack, 

579
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:24,800
Overflow. 
And I thought to myself, why is 

580
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,800
that? 
And I realized because 

581
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,700
everybody's different, 
everybody's experiences are 

582
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:34,200
different and everybody has a 
unique way of approaching a 

583
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,100
problem. 
Many of us might have the same 

584
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:37,300
problem. 
Right? 

585
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,400
But we all have slightly 
different operating systems, 

586
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:42,900
slightly different tools. 
How many cups of coffee we've 

587
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:45,800
had very, and we come at the 
problem from a slightly 

588
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,900
different angle and we present 
it in a slightly different way. 

589
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,600
So I think That's why things 
like stackoverflow. 

590
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,100
Well, sometimes incredibly 
messy, and frustrating, and you 

591
00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:56,900
sit there going. 
How could no one have asked this

592
00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:59,300
already? 
I think it's why they are so 

593
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:04,300
valuable because you have a huge
crowd Source pool of information

594
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:08,600
of both challenges and answers. 
The fact that people though 

595
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:10,300
we've mentioned it so many times
in school. 

596
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,600
It works. 
I've used it myself and that to 

597
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,500
me is a very underrated source 
of great technical 

598
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:21,000
documentation. 
It doesn't need to be Kind of 

599
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,100
Perfect. 
Polished pairs are amazing 

600
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:25,600
online, documentation. 
It can be this crowd sourcing 

601
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,300
and he just goes to prove that. 
Everybody can be at some level 

602
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,900
of really great technical writer
in quotes. 

603
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,200
They can be because they've gone
out there and they've posted 

604
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,800
that and look at the community 
and they step up and they go. 

605
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:38,500
Here's an answer to your 
question. 

606
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,500
So, I mean, like, I've seen it 
in multiple open source 

607
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:44,100
projects, but I'm not sure in 
terms of product companies and 

608
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:46,100
things like that. 
Could it be that this will stop 

609
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:50,100
a new trend of a crowdsource way
of improving the documentation 

610
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:52,000
is like, oh, Open source 
project, where you can raise 

611
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,300
pull request. 
Everybody can make revisions 

612
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:58,100
even typos on things like that. 
Is it gonna be like a trend for 

613
00:29:58,100 --> 00:29:59,800
product companies to do that in 
the future? 

614
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:03,600
I think it might be it's not as 
easy as it sounds, as anybody in

615
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
the development world knows. 
It's like, oh, yes, let's just 

616
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000
open source that. 
But there are companies out 

617
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,500
there that are starting to do 
this and it kind of shifts the 

618
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:16,000
technical writers role. 
Perhaps, from a sole creator of 

619
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,300
content, more to a maintainer of
open-source content and Quality 

620
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,400
gate. 
But I think there are a lot of 

621
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600
benefits to potentially be 
gained from doing it this way, 

622
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,600
you know, if you've got a 
customer especially if you're 

623
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,300
creating content, perhaps a 
developers using and I saying 

624
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,700
this is wrong or there's a typo,
or how about can we add this 

625
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:40,000
piece of information? 
They can go in and go, you know 

626
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,200
what, I'm just going to create a
quick pull request and that 

627
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,400
process is nice and easy. 
It's open source. 

628
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,100
It's on GitHub. 
There's no special tool. 

629
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,200
They need to run it locally. 
They can just create it, create 

630
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,700
the pool. 
Requesting technical writer can 

631
00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:53,000
go. 
Oh, that's great. 

632
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,200
Yes. 
Well, we'll bring that in. 

633
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,600
So, you've got documentation 
that is very current is very 

634
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,300
up-to-date. 
There is obviously an onus on 

635
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,200
the team. 
Maintaining it to make sure that

636
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,400
the content going in is of high 
enough quality speaks to the 

637
00:31:05,408 --> 00:31:09,400
brand voice, but I think we are 
seeing a definite Trend in that 

638
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,700
direction. 
It's just there is a hit on his 

639
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:16,100
hit on structure because if 
things are a free-for-all, yes, 

640
00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:18,800
stack Overflow is amazing, but 
it's also free for all. 

641
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,500
So it's a lot of duplication. 
And it would take a lot to clean

642
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:24,400
up stack, Overflow. 
Shall we say? 

643
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,800
But I think there's some 
definite wins to be had with 

644
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,600
open-sourcing documentation. 
For sure. 

645
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:33,100
So, speaking about product 
documentation. 

646
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:35,500
I've seen in multiple different 
products as well. 

647
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:39,200
There are some common type of 
contents like for example, quick

648
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,100
start tutorial or maybe 
beginners concept and advanced 

649
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,800
concept and things like that. 
Maybe prompt your point of view.

650
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,600
What are some of the good 
contents that our product 

651
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,400
documentation should have like 
four? 

652
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:52,900
Common People. 
Another good question. 

653
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:55,900
So documentation that I'm 
particularly passionate about 

654
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:57,500
that. 
I think goes across the board. 

655
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,100
Our release notes, good release 
notes done. 

656
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,700
Well, are very, very valuable. 
So, when you update a piece of 

657
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,900
software customers want to know 
if their bug was fixed, 

658
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,800
especially if they're the people
maintaining the upgrade on the 

659
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,200
customer site, they want to know
other bugs fixed. 

660
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,900
What else changed, you know, 
especially if it's not just a 

661
00:32:14,908 --> 00:32:17,100
bug, fix, what changed? 
What impact could it have on 

662
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,800
their environment? 
They need to be clear. 

663
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,100
They need to be They need to be 
not fluffy. 

664
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:24,300
This is one of the blog's I 
wrote on the app, release notes,

665
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:26,900
but on your phone, when you 
update a nap, some of the 

666
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,900
release notes are really good in
that, they say this bug was 

667
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:31,300
fixed. 
That bug was fixed. 

668
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:34,200
We made changes to this. 
We've improved the performance 

669
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,800
of that. 
Other thing over there. 

670
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,900
I think they're just being a bit
cute and fluffy when I say this,

671
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:40,300
but some of them are like, we 
fix some stuff to make stuff 

672
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:43,600
better, and I sit there 
thinking, but that doesn't tell 

673
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,000
me anything. 
That doesn't tell me how you've 

674
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,700
changed this software that 
interacts with my phone. 

675
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:52,200
And with me, everyday, I have No
idea what you've done and I kind

676
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,400
of feel a little bit frustrated 
at that point because I want to 

677
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,800
know what's changed. 
But I know when I have this 

678
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,300
conversation with my friends, 
the answer I get is we don't 

679
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,200
care Helen and maybe they're 
right. 

680
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,100
Maybe that's just me that I like
and respect. 

681
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:08,500
When somebody has put the effort
into telling me what change has 

682
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:10,200
been made to an application that
I use. 

683
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,600
Equally, I totally admit, I 
don't read all the release notes

684
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,600
unless it's an app that I am 
particularly invested in or I 

685
00:33:17,608 --> 00:33:22,700
have raised a bug report for 
Yeah, release notes are probably

686
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,500
the most red piece of technical 
documentation. 

687
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,100
That's technocrat, reduces 
because unlike the rest of the 

688
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,500
technical documentation. 
You don't read release notes. 

689
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:33,300
When you have a problem or 
you're annoyed, you read release

690
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:35,800
notes because you want to know 
what's in the new release. 

691
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000
And you want to know, if there's
any gotchas to installing it or 

692
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:40,700
are there any known issues 
again? 

693
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,700
Knowing issue should go in the 
release notes, other types 

694
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,300
content types. 
You've got your standard product

695
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:49,200
documentation, which is pretty 
much a catch-all for everything.

696
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:51,800
Again, we've spoken about Aiming
to get that online. 

697
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,700
So it doesn't rot as quickly and
you can keep it up-to-date. 

698
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:56,500
Frequently asked questions we've
spoken about. 

699
00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:58,800
Please make sure they are the 
ones that are frequently Asked 

700
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:03,100
tutorials again the kind of come
under product documentation, but

701
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:06,000
with tutorials, the most 
important thing that I would 

702
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,199
recommend is make sure you've 
tried the steps out yourself. 

703
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,500
I recently didn't do this 
before. 

704
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:14,199
It was actually a Blog, that's 
got a tutorial in and I sent it 

705
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,000
for review with an assumption in
and I didn't try out and it's 

706
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,900
wrong and thankfully it's not 
gone live and I've been kicking 

707
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,300
myself. 
Ever since. 

708
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:26,600
So make sure you've tested the 
steps out because if they don't 

709
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,900
work on your machine, they're 
definitely not going to work on 

710
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:31,300
someone else's machine. 
Make sure you've considered 

711
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:35,199
deviations like different 
operating systems or different 

712
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,600
configurations. 
Make sure you thought about that

713
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,199
kind of stuff, especially when 
you're writing tutorial steps. 

714
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,199
Because again, if a customer has
taken a proactive step to follow

715
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,300
a tutorial, right? 
That's not reactive thing. 

716
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:49,300
That's a proactive step, and the
steps don't work. 

717
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:51,699
You've got an annoyed. 
Customer and this time, they're 

718
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:53,300
not over the software. 
They're annoyed with the 

719
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,800
documentation. 
So, try and make sure they work.

720
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,500
I have recently started creating
blog posts both professionally 

721
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:03,400
and personally, they're an 
interesting one for me and I've 

722
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,400
struggled a little bit to switch
my mindset from technical 

723
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,300
writing to personal writing 
because stuff that I put on my 

724
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:13,000
personal blog. 
I have to switch off my inner 

725
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,900
technical writing now and type 
more like me, so I have a more 

726
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,800
informal way of typing in the 
same way that we all have a more

727
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,100
informal. 
Speaking. 

728
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:25,200
It's slightly more formal for 
professional blog posts, 

729
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,000
obviously, but it's a different 
form of writing. 

730
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,600
Because certainly with the 
personal writing, you don't have

731
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,800
to adhere to any sort of company
brand. 

732
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,200
It's your brand. 
It's however, you want to put it

733
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,800
across. 
You can also bend the rules on 

734
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,900
structure as well. 
You don't need to be quite as 

735
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:42,000
structured with your 
signposting. 

736
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,200
You can tell more of a story. 
You can be much, more story 

737
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,800
focused, especially on personal 
blogging. 

738
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,700
I find a lot of the blog's that 
we do professionally for Again, 

739
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,800
we try and step through a 
process, especially if we're 

740
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,800
blogging about a recent 
screencast or something. 

741
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,000
So it's very sequential. 
So now your code will look like 

742
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
this and these are the steps 
that you need to follow. 

743
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,900
And these are the files that you
need to change. 

744
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:06,200
So again, it's more story 
focused than perhaps technical 

745
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,900
writing with technical writing. 
You're documenting a piece of 

746
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:11,200
software. 
You're documenting 

747
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,700
functionality, rather than with 
the the blog post that I'm now 

748
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:19,600
doing your more documenting a 
flow, a story, a process, a 

749
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,300
task. 
And yeah, recently branching 

750
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:24,400
into podcasts. 
So they're fun. 

751
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:27,900
This is my second podcast 
session that I've done and well 

752
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:30,700
so far. 
I'm learning Prep, Prep is good.

753
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,500
Have a good, think about how you
want to answer some of the 

754
00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:36,600
questions especially, if you're 
somebody like me that sometimes 

755
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,700
trips up, over my words. 
Cool. 

756
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,200
So that's another thing that I 
find in not many companies, but 

757
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,700
certain type of companies that 
actually create a really, really

758
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:48,800
good technical documentation or 
maybe blog post technical blog 

759
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,300
post. 
That becomes like they're part 

760
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,000
of Of the brands. 
They increase their awareness 

761
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,200
and people just like them as 
such, right? 

762
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,600
The brand becomes stronger and 
stronger. 

763
00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:59,700
Maybe people would even want to 
work with them simply because 

764
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,400
what they provide as part of the
content is really, really 

765
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,900
marvelous and there's like a 
strong branding and advocacy 

766
00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:07,800
there. 
Do you think this would be a 

767
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,400
good strategy for companies to 
invest on, especially to a 

768
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,000
higher Talent, you know, like to
attract talent to work with 

769
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,700
them. 
My answer on that one. 

770
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,000
I think is it depends. 
It depends so much on the 

771
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,000
company and the Act and what 
kind of talent they're looking 

772
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,600
to attract on the face of it? 
It would be very easy to say. 

773
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:27,900
Yes. 
Absolutely. 

774
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,400
I can't see any downsides, but 
there are some companies that 

775
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,400
just wouldn't work for and they 
wouldn't want to necessarily 

776
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:37,400
attract the kind of talent that 
would attract, if that makes 

777
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,800
sense. 
So I think that is maybe more of

778
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,700
a marketing branding decision if
they want to present themselves 

779
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:45,900
in a certain way and it's going 
to work for them then, 

780
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:49,800
absolutely go for it. 
I'm not sure it would be a vital

781
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,600
for every Every company I think 
there's probably a cultural 

782
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,200
element to that as well. 
Don't what might work in one 

783
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,100
country wouldn't necessarily 
work in a different country. 

784
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:00,700
That's just a suspicion. 
But yeah, if the company is 

785
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:04,100
willing to try it then I think 
it could be a very valuable tool

786
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:07,400
for them. 
So Helen I saw you also had a 

787
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,000
blog post about community 
mentorship. 

788
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,400
So personally when I view it is 
it like any other kind of 

789
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,500
mentorship or what's the take on
the community side? 

790
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:18,800
Maybe you can share a little bit
about what do you mean by 

791
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,000
Community mentoring? 
Sure, so that blog post came 

792
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,400
about because of a conversation 
that I had with somebody bury in

793
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,000
the London Java Community 
because he said that there's a 

794
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,400
community mental scheme and it's
run by Rick works. 

795
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:40,300
And I said, but I can't have a 
community Mentor yet because I 

796
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,900
don't know enough. 
And I'd be wasting their time or

797
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:46,200
words to that effect. 
And he said, but you can we have

798
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,100
people within the community who 
are willing to work with people 

799
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:51,300
such. 
Yourself and impart their 

800
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,100
knowledge and I kind of went 
away and thought about it for a 

801
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,500
bit and did end up getting not 
one, but two mentors. 

802
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:01,100
And it really got me thinking, 
what is a community Mentor? 

803
00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:03,600
Because I use the frame 
Community Mentor because I 

804
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,700
wanted to burst it to find it as
somebody that is in a community 

805
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,800
in a community, that you also 
are part of, and that you want 

806
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,700
to grow yourself in. 
But a mentor in terms of the 

807
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:14,800
relationship for me a community 
Mentor. 

808
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,400
Is there somebody in the 
community? 

809
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,500
They are somebody who 
potentially has been in the 

810
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,200
community for a while. 
While they might have attributes

811
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,700
such as a large platform on 
social media, like numbers of 

812
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:28,700
Twitter followers, for example, 
they might be somebody who 

813
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:30,800
regularly works the conference 
circuit. 

814
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,700
They might be somebody who has a
specific, technical skill set 

815
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:38,900
that you're keen on improving 
yourself, but they are people 

816
00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:42,900
within the community who are 
willing to work with you and 

817
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,000
ultimately give you a seat at 
the table. 

818
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,500
We need help. 
We all need a little bit of 

819
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:51,500
support and mentoring and are 
leading at times. 

820
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,900
So they might be somebody who 
just checks your content and 

821
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:57,800
says, yeah, I really like this 
blog post, great job or they 

822
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,700
might be somebody that reviews 
talks that you've given and 

823
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:02,800
says, okay. 
Yeah, that took about two 

824
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,200
minutes 51. 
Instead of saying that maybe 

825
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,000
change it to this, because of 
these reasons, or they might be 

826
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,300
somebody who is willing to 
co-present with you at a 

827
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:14,100
conference that in itself, 
especially if they're a really 

828
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:16,900
well-known speaker that can do 
wonders for your career. 

829
00:40:16,900 --> 00:40:19,900
If they're willing to say, you 
know, what, come on up, come and

830
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:21,900
present. 
It's me, because getting on that

831
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:24,700
stage for the first time is 
really, really terrifying. 

832
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,100
They might be somebody who is 
willing to use their social 

833
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:30,500
media-based to elevate your 
content. 

834
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,900
So if you're blogging about 
something that's in their sphere

835
00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:35,100
as well. 
They may be willing to retweet 

836
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:38,900
that blog for you and say Reach 
Out meet these people. 

837
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,200
So there's somebody that is in 
the local community. 

838
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:47,000
They have offered to help. 
They have a set of skills or 

839
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,100
some knowledge that they are 
willing to impart. 

840
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:51,000
They are open and honest. 
About that. 

841
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,200
No money should exchange hands 
in my view. 

842
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,500
They are just people who want to
help you. 

843
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:59,200
They are people in the community
and just because you have a 

844
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,400
mentor, does not exclude you 
from being a mentor as well. 

845
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,700
I am entering a couple of people
as well at the moment. 

846
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:10,700
So one in terms of their writing
and one just in terms of their 

847
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:13,000
creation of content and working 
within the community and 

848
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,400
building up their confidence. 
That's a really interesting 

849
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,700
Journey as well because it's not
just used the mentee that grows.

850
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:20,200
You can grow as a mentor as 
well. 

851
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,800
You can learn so much about 
yourself by doing it. 

852
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,400
So, yeah, that's what a 
community Mentor is to me. 

853
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,400
First of all, I mean, I must 
admit. 

854
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,900
This concept is pretty new to 
me. 

855
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:31,500
What I know about mentoring 
normally is from within the 

856
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:33,900
company itself. 
Like you have some seniors maybe

857
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:35,800
from other departments. 
You can have a mentoring 

858
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,900
relationship or sometimes. 
Also you join like a mentoring 

859
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:40,900
group. 
It's a specific group just to 

860
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:43,700
match a mentor and mentee and 
but this but this community 

861
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:47,200
mentoring seems pretty new to me
and it's very interesting that 

862
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,200
you said that the mentor should 
come from a community Maybe. 

863
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:52,600
They are more influential so to 
speak. 

864
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,200
They have a large audience or 
they have a great technical 

865
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,800
skills being in a conference and
things like that. 

866
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
So, for people like me, or many 
people out there, right? 

867
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,800
How should they find Community 
Mental or in the first place? 

868
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,500
Should they get a Community 
member? 

869
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,600
So, in the first place, if 
you're trying to decide, if you 

870
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,800
want or need a community Mentor,
identify, what is it that you're

871
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,000
looking to improve? 
Is it a particular skill. 

872
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,900
Is it more confidence in public 
speaking? 

873
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,200
Is it more confidence with 
writing blogs? 

874
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,200
Is it something else entirely 
ask yourself? 

875
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,900
If you've got the time as well, 
because you are going to be 

876
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:26,500
entering into potentially a 
professional relationship with 

877
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:30,200
this community mental, whereby, 
they're going to expect rightly 

878
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,100
a commitment from you. 
So it's not unreasonable to say 

879
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:35,600
can I give that commitment? 
Can I give that time? 

880
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,500
Then? 
Look at the communities that 

881
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:39,600
you're part of. 
Do they have a mentorship 

882
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,600
program if they don't don't be 
afraid to ask. 

883
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,400
Is there anybody willing to 
Mentor me in this and set your 

884
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,700
expectations up front, you know,
say these are my expectations. 

885
00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:51,500
This is what I'm looking for. 
It's a professional 

886
00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:54,200
relationship. 
So expectations must be met in 

887
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,800
the same way expectations for 
the first meeting must be met. 

888
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,500
This is actually in the blog 
post that you're referring to. 

889
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,700
So one of the other Advocates 
that I work with, actually wrote

890
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,200
that section. 
He sets out in the blog, a very 

891
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,300
clear framework for what that 
first meeting should look like 

892
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,200
because ultimately it's a case 
of try working with this person.

893
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,200
It might work out, it might not 
and there's no shame in saying 

894
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,700
actually. 
That's not going to work out 

895
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:19,800
because it ultimately needs to 
be a relationship that is built 

896
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,900
on trust. 
A mutual respect and if you 

897
00:43:21,908 --> 00:43:23,900
don't have that, it's time to 
move on. 

898
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,600
So yeah, it's a case of find 
out. 

899
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,200
If there's a mentorship program,
if there's not State your 

900
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,000
expectations and ask for one 
special, you can go to the 

901
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,600
leader of the community and say,
this is what I'm looking for. 

902
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,500
Is there anybody out there that 
is perhaps willing to help and 

903
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:40,900
support me. 
So, how about from the mental 

904
00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:43,000
side of thing? 
So if you are part of a 

905
00:43:43,008 --> 00:43:46,300
community, maybe up skills. 
Why do you think these people 

906
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:49,800
should offer mentoring for other
people in the community as well?

907
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,000
So why do I think people should 
volunteer to be a mentor, right?

908
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,500
Yes. 
I don't necessarily think that I

909
00:43:56,500 --> 00:44:01,800
think for some people they want 
to be a mentor and they are 

910
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,200
particularly passionate about 
lowering the barriers to entry 

911
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,400
in the community for certain 
things like public speaking or 

912
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,100
like creating more Community 
content. 

913
00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:14,800
Some people don't necessarily 
want to be mentors and that's 

914
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,900
completely fine. 
It is not for everyone. 

915
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:21,200
They may not have the time or it
may not just That's okay. 

916
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,000
That doesn't make them a bad 
person or anything like that. 

917
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:27,900
It's just a case of some people 
are particularly passionate and 

918
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:30,600
particularly good. 
Elevating other people in the 

919
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,900
community from what I've 
observed in communities. 

920
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,600
There are a lot of those people 
and there are people that have 

921
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,300
the time and have the 
inclination. 

922
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:44,300
So they also understand they 
want that to a relationship 

923
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:48,400
because they understand how they
themselves as a mentor will grow

924
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,100
and learn from it as well. 
It is not. 

925
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:52,900
And I can't stress that enough. 
It's not a one-way thing. 

926
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:54,400
It sounds like you've got this 
mentor. 

927
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,300
And this mentee that it's going 
to be a one-way flow from the 

928
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,700
mentor to the mentee. 
And it's not and it shouldn't 

929
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,000
be, there's definitely a flow 
the other way because that 

930
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,500
mentee can teach that Mentor a 
lot about themselves. 

931
00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:09,700
They may have forgotten what the
journey was like 20 years ago 

932
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,600
and you've got this person 
starting out on a very similar 

933
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,500
journey and they may want to 
just help them and say, you 

934
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:17,500
know, what, don't fall over 
that. 

935
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:20,100
Don't trip over that. 
Let's look at that and let 

936
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,500
Introduce you to these people. 
They are just people that want 

937
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,200
to give you a seat at the table.
There's another quite brilliant.

938
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,800
Post that you have lately as 
well, which is about the hex for

939
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,700
Content creation and sharing. 
I know you have a lot of points 

940
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:36,600
there. 
Maybe if you can share some of 

941
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,100
your favorites from those hacks 
for people who want to produce 

942
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:42,700
content or want to produce a 
better content. 

943
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,700
So this talk came out of a blog 
post that I wrote initially, 

944
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:50,100
that was just seven hacks. 
And now the talk has got 17 

945
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:52,400
Hacks in. 
So that just goes to show. 

946
00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:55,500
I'm not going to go through 17, 
but I try and picked up five. 

947
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:59,000
First one is when you're first 
starting out, just get into the 

948
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,700
flow of producing content and 
Publishing it because no one's 

949
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:06,200
going to read or watch it. 
Anyway, especially if you have a

950
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:09,100
very low Twitter account, I know
it sounds rude but it's true. 

951
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:12,000
It's just a case of getting 
content out there and I know 

952
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,300
this because I completely 
panicked about publishing. 

953
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:17,800
My first blog, a little while 
ago now, and my good friend sent

954
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,800
to be. 
It's fine. 

955
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,200
Helen, don't worry. 
No one's. 

956
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,300
Going to read it anyway, and I 
thought to start with well, 

957
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:25,500
that's quite rude. 
Actually, they were right. 

958
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:28,600
And it helped to give me the 
confidence to just put content 

959
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,600
out there because it just gets 
you into that mental model of 

960
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,500
create content published content
and it stops, you overthinking 

961
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:39,200
it. 
So yeah, that's one create 

962
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,200
experience based content is 
another one. 

963
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,700
So many people who are creating 
content or want to get into 

964
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:47,700
public speaking. 
Say things like well someone's 

965
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:50,100
already spoken about that or 
someone's already blogged about 

966
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,500
That. 
And I'm like, yeah they have but

967
00:46:52,500 --> 00:46:55,200
they have not had your exact 
experience. 

968
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,100
And nor are they are going to 
approach it in the same way that

969
00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:00,900
you did. 
So by creating experience based 

970
00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:02,900
content. 
No one can argue with your 

971
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:05,000
experience. 
It's Unique to you. 

972
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,900
And in fact, this speaks 
volumes, but going back to stack

973
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:09,700
Overflow. 
This is one of the reasons that 

974
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:13,100
I think stack Overflow is so 
successful is because it's 

975
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:16,000
experienced based content. 
Yes, there's a lot of 

976
00:47:16,008 --> 00:47:20,500
duplication, but people come at 
the same problem from a Of 

977
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:22,900
different angles. 
And they all have different 

978
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:25,300
experiences and different 
approaches to that problem in 

979
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:27,600
different ways of writing it up 
on stack, Overflow. 

980
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,800
And that's one of the values in 
it because when you're looking 

981
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,600
for stuff, you might see ten 
answers, but only one of them is

982
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,900
going to be possible by your 
mind. 

983
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,600
Only one of them. 
Are you going to be able to go? 

984
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:39,500
Okay. 
Yeah, that one makes sense. 

985
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,000
The other nine might as well be 
written in. 

986
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,300
Jargon. 
So create experience, based 

987
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:47,000
content, another one information
density. 

988
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:49,100
This one. 
In fact, your guests, my 

989
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:51,600
colleague, Trisha Jesus. 
Excellent at this, when you are 

990
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,600
creating a Blog, it works 
especially well in blogs. 

991
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600
Actually, if you referenced 
other content, when you created 

992
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,800
that blog. 
So, for example, she's got a 

993
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,700
Java rate, talk. 
If you are referencing content 

994
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:06,100
such as numerous other blogs or 
technical articles or Java 

995
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:09,600
specifications, just put all the
links in there that you used, 

996
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,100
because it allows the user in 
the reader to explore at their 

997
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:14,900
own pace. 
And if they don't want to click 

998
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:17,700
on the links, they don't have 
to, that's okay, but just put 

999
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:19,700
them in there. 
Put as much information in there

1000
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:21,400
in the same. 
When you're creating online 

1001
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,000
documentation, you're using the 
layering technique. 

1002
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,200
So you're putting information in
that you're putting links in 

1003
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,200
there. 
And then you can drill down from

1004
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,100
there. 
Another one would be don't 

1005
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:33,900
listen to the voices. 
These are the voices that set up

1006
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:36,800
on one of your shoulders and 
they come out with rubbish. 

1007
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,600
Like you're not good enough. 
This isn't valuable content. 

1008
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,100
No one's interested. 
In this, they come out with 

1009
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:45,800
comments that are going to put 
you down and you're never going 

1010
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,300
to get rid of them completely. 
At least, I haven't managed it, 

1011
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:50,900
but you have got a bunch of 
little dudes on the other 

1012
00:48:50,900 --> 00:48:54,200
shoulder and they'll say stuff, 
like you are good enough or 

1013
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,600
experienced is valid. 
This is useful. 

1014
00:48:56,700 --> 00:49:00,400
It's just a constant fight going
off on your shoulders. 

1015
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,700
So you'll never manage to not 
listen to them completely, but I

1016
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:06,800
would encourage you to pop them 
in a little box, close the lid 

1017
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,100
and sit on the lid because they 
are not going to do you any 

1018
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:12,600
favors on the whole. 
So I'm now opt for. 

1019
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,000
So I'm going to limit myself to 
one more. 

1020
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,000
Don't let perceived lack of 
language skills. 

1021
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,000
Hold you back. 
And I mentioned this one because

1022
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,500
I Worry about it, with my 
technical writing background. 

1023
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,100
I think if blogs got a typo in 
or if I trip over my words in a 

1024
00:49:26,107 --> 00:49:29,700
podcast, then people are going 
to say harsh things, but it's 

1025
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:33,200
simply not true and the same is 
true for accents as well. 

1026
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:37,200
I get so sad when I hear 
perspective speakers say, I 

1027
00:49:37,207 --> 00:49:39,600
don't want to speak because of 
my accent or you won't be able 

1028
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,000
to understand me and it's like, 
no, I want to hear what you have

1029
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,400
to say. 
Your accent is beautiful. 

1030
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,100
And you already speak, at least,
one more language than I do and 

1031
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:51,700
probably more. 
Which in itself is amazing. 

1032
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:55,000
So I would say, please please, 
please don't let that hold you 

1033
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,300
back, because people don't come 
to listen or worry about your 

1034
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:00,000
accent. 
They come to your talk because 

1035
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,100
they want to hear what you have 
to say, because your experience 

1036
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:06,500
is unique, and your knowledge is
fascinating. 

1037
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:09,300
So share it. 
Thanks for sharing. 

1038
00:50:09,300 --> 00:50:11,800
All these hacks, personally, as 
a content creator. 

1039
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,800
I could use some of your hex, as
well. 

1040
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,900
So for others, who are 
interested to know more. 

1041
00:50:16,900 --> 00:50:19,800
I mean, there are 17 0. 
So that means there are other 12

1042
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,800
heck. 
Out there, I'll make sure to put

1043
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,400
the links in the show notes and 
you can check it out yourself. 

1044
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,700
So, haven't we come to the end 
of this conversation before I 

1045
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:29,800
let you go. 
Normally I would ask all my 

1046
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,900
guests, this thing called three 
technical leadership. 

1047
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:34,300
Wisdom. 
So do you have any kind of 

1048
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,300
leadership just that you have 
found from your career to share 

1049
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:41,600
with the audience here. 
So my first one would be engaged

1050
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,900
with and learn from the 
community. 

1051
00:50:44,100 --> 00:50:46,900
They are an incredible group of 
people. 

1052
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,700
Many of them have walked the 
same path that you're walking 

1053
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,000
some Of them are behind you in 
your journey. 

1054
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,100
Some of them are ahead of you in
the journey, but they all want 

1055
00:50:55,100 --> 00:50:57,100
to help. 
I haven't yet found anybody 

1056
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:00,300
who's not willing to help in the
community and that might not be 

1057
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,600
a full-blown mental just 
yesterday. 

1058
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,100
Someone picked me and said, you 
know what, your blog's looks 

1059
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,700
really funky on my phone. 
I'm not really sure what's going

1060
00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:10,800
on and they want to help and 
people want to support and want 

1061
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,100
to help you grow. 
So engage with them and learn 

1062
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:17,900
from them that be my first one. 
My second one is create content.

1063
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:21,400
It is so beneficial to you it. 
You've spent your learning, you 

1064
00:51:21,408 --> 00:51:24,200
don't need to be a technical 
writer to create content. 

1065
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:26,100
You can put it out there. 
You can share it with the 

1066
00:51:26,107 --> 00:51:28,000
community. 
And guess what? 

1067
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,100
The community will learn and 
will grow as a result, because 

1068
00:51:31,100 --> 00:51:34,500
you are helping other people, 
you are bringing your unique 

1069
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:37,400
experience and your unique 
Viewpoint, and it goes back to 

1070
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,200
stack Overflow. 
There might be those nine 

1071
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,200
answers, but somebody actually 
needs that tent answer, which 

1072
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,100
you can provide from your 
experience in your Viewpoint. 

1073
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:49,000
The third one is just to believe
in yourself and believe that you

1074
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,100
can learn things. 
So, your career may be windy. 

1075
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:55,500
It may not be straight line from
computer science, Java 

1076
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:57,700
programmer for 20 years. 
That's great. 

1077
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,700
If it is good for you, you find 
what you love straight away. 

1078
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:03,900
You can learn stuff, you can 
fill in the blanks, but just 

1079
00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:06,900
remember that you're amazing. 
And you have an immense amount 

1080
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:08,700
of value to bring. 
Well. 

1081
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:10,200
Thanks for sharing all this with
them. 

1082
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:13,400
So Helen for people who are 
interested to learn more from, 

1083
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,300
you may be asking you to become 
the mentor or learn more about 

1084
00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:18,300
technical writing where they can
find you online. 

1085
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,000
Yeah. 
I'm on Twitter. 

1086
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,900
And Joe Scott think it's same on
LinkedIn. 

1087
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:25,100
Same on GitHub. 
My websites also Helen, Joe 

1088
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,000
Scott.com. 
So, thanks. 

1089
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,500
Again. 
Helen for spending your time. 

1090
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:31,600
Looking forward to your next 
blog post, which I find quite 

1091
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,100
interesting. 
Thanks, Henry. 

1092
00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:38,000
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for listening to this 

1093
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,700
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1094
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:43,800
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1095
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,100
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1096
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,400
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1097
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,700
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1098
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:56,100
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1099
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:58,600
in order to grow these podcasts 
better. 

1100
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,500
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1101
00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:05,700
the episode page at technology. 
No, the death website. 

1102
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:09,200
Cluding, the full transcript, 
interesting quotes, and links to

1103
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,100
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1104
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,500
And lastly make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1105
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:18,700
list on technology. 
No, the deaf to get notified for

1106
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,500
any future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1107
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:23,900
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1108
00:53:24,100 --> 00:53:24,700
Goodbye.