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The thing I noticed was the 
business technology divided so 

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that was apparent in many 
companies and a lot of companies

3
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have got on this cannon wave of 
cloud and move to the cloud and 

4
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then the value may be has not 
been there. 

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It's just a fancy data center. 
So we get that real value. 

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You have to really join the 
business and technology 

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strategy. 
So Lady of the value flywheel 

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effect is when you join business
goals for technology goals, you 

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start to see this momentum this 
flywheel effect. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya, we 

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Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,300
you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So, let's dive into our Journal.

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Hello, again, my friends and my 
listeners. 

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Welcome to the package, you 
know, podcast the show where you

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can learn about technical 
leadership and Excellence from 

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my conversations with great 
thought leaders in the tech 

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industry. 
It's very great to be back here 

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again with another new episode. 
If this is your first time 

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listening to technology, you 
know, don't forget to subscribe 

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Creating this podcast, subscribe
as a patron at technology. 

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No, dot f / Patron, my guest for
today's episode. 

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Is David Anderson? 
David is the author of the value

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flywheel effect and the 
co-creator of the several has 

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aged in this episode. 
David described the value 

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flywheel effect concept and it's
four stages, the clarity of 

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purpose, The Challenge and 
Landscape the next best action. 

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And the long-term value, David 
also explained, the importance 

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of worldly mapping and how we 
can use it to help improve the 

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organization's situational 
awareness within the value 

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flywheel during our discussion 
about the first day. 

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Yes, we also discussed several 
important Concepts such as the 

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north star frame up for clarity 
of purpose, understanding the 

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team psychological safety and 
socio-technical systems, 

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landscape, the Severus first 
Paradigm as one way for the next

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best action and using the well 
architected framework and 

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sustainability as guidelines for
ensuring long-term value. 

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I really enjoyed my conversation
with David and learning about 

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the value flywheel effect. 
I find that all the four stages 

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when used with Ellen, in any 
engineering organization, we can

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bring the transformation and the
flywheel effect that David 

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described in his book and this 
episode and the great thing is 

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David has successfully used this
concept to bring technology 

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transformation and Cloud 
adoption at Liberty. 

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Mutual, so definitely, there are
a lot of practical things we can

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00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:59,100
use within all engineering 
organization. 

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00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,900
If you also enjoy listening to 
this episode, please help me by 

54
00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:05,900
sharing it with others who can 
also benefit from listening to 

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it. 
Also, leave this podcast a 

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five-star Thing and review on a 
podcast and Spotify, it will 

57
00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:15,000
help me a lot to make this 
podcast easily discovered by 

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other people. 
Let's continue to the 

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conversation with David after 
hearing a few words from our 

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sponsors. 
Today's episode is proudly 

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sponsored by skills method. 
The global community and events 

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Hi everyone. 

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Welcome back to another new 
episode of the package. 

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You know about Outkast. 
Today, I have a guest with me 

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named David Anderson, or maybe 
I'll call you Dave. 

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So David is the author of the 
book, titled the value flywheel 

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effect. 
So in this book at this is very 

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interesting, Journey. 
He gave some principles or how 

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he actually did a cloud 
transformation but it's not just

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called transformation. 
There are some principles that 

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he also adopt which to him is a 
successful experience, which he 

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shares that can be adopted by 
many other organizations as well

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or teams in the world. 
Specifically David. 

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He's also a fan of serverless 
architecture, or Paradigm. 

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So he has done a large-scale 
survey last deployment, 

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especially the experience that 
he went through for writing the 

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book. 
And also he was the creator of 

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the several has Edge. 
It's a community that Advocate 

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several has architecture and 
some principles and paradigms. 

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So David thank you so much for 
this opportunity. 

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Looking forward to talk about 
your value flywheel effect and 

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also the serverless Thank you 
Henry and thanks for having us 

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on the podcast and I'm a big 
fan. 

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So I'm looking forward to the 
conversation. 

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So, David in the beginning, I 
always like to ask my guest to 

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introduce themselves. 
So maybe if you can share a 

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little bit of your background or
turning points in your career. 

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Sure. 
So I'm based in Belfast and from

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dairy open the very north west 
of Ireland. 

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I've always studied computer 
science. 

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Always been a software engineer.
Now, spent the first probably 10

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years of my career working in 
Telecom a lot of Canada building

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big systems are working. 
It on big platforms. 

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I then joined Liberty, Mutual 
around 2007, as an architect 

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building, an e-commerce system. 
And I'm looking off to get a CT 

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opposition and around 2013. 
And I was very lucky because I 

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was kind of at the table as 
Liberty, Mutual started speaking

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to a, to the S Vector, public 
Cloud Journey. 

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So my background being software,
the first thing I thought about 

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was okay, as we move to the 
cloud, we're going to have a lot

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of security network in fuck. 
Our policy questions that answer

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who is answering the question 
around. 

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How do we write software and a 
cloud native way so I can. 

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It took on that challenge with 
my small team and that led to a 

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large canner served as First 
Transformation Liberty. 

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Maybe we can touch and not 
through the book, like, that's 

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for myself and my two. 
Co-authors Mark McHale and 

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Michael Riley. 
Figure out this technique that 

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we call the value flywheel 
effect. 

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Our vision was, can we make 
Liberty? 

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Mutual, I served as first 
Enterprise. 

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Which was a very bold statement 
especially for a few Architects 

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and then Belfast but I think we 
seen a lot of successes and that

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Journey we see some fantastic 
things around modernize and 

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applications of unlike over. 
Ninety percent Savings, of run 

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costs, fantastic speed to Market
times seen. 

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Massive satisfaction from 
Engineers enable, the reduce, a 

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lot of the operational. 
Burden around standing up big 

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infrastructures and really focus
on the business problem. 

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Deliver business Are you really 
quickly which also created a 

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fantastic cohesion between the 
Business Leaders. 

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All of a sudden 80 wasn't a 
bottleneck technology was no a 

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differentiator. 
So it really it was a lot bigger

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than me driving this but there 
was a general wave of 

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modernization transformation in 
the Enterprise and Liberty. 

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Mutual been a Fortune 100 one of
the world's leading insurance 

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companies. 
That's a pretty big company 

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whose exciting time to be at 
Liberty and to be driving that 

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story. 
And we can we touch on some of 

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the stories as we go into 1021. 
Like I said, they can move on 

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the new challenges and it was an
agent Car. 

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Craft whose x Netflix it with a 
successful. 

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This is okay. 
You have to write a book. 

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This is too exciting. 
I had no intention of being an 

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author. 
So I thought, okay, I'll try 

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this author thing and see what 
happens. 

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So I told you go to the book and
was absolutely delighted. 

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When 80 Revolution and Gene Kim,
authors of accelerate devops 

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handbook, Phoenix project, team,
topology, Etc. 

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So there are divided, you fly To
their fantastic portfolio of 

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books. 
I was already in that Kenna, 

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devops Enterprise Community 
which is fantastic and really 

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back to work. 
I can spend just over here with 

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bizarre voice as a technical 
fellow driving, their killer 

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modernization. 
And of course, they're working 

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for globalization Partners or 
GP, which is very interesting 

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company. 
The mission of the company is 

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taken at the breakdown fire, the
global business nipple 

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opportunities everywhere, Global
Employment platform, that you 

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can hire anyone anywhere in the 
world. 

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Those are really exciting. 
We call it a service first, 

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well, architect its ass. 
So we're building an entire 

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employment platform. 
It's formed again for me, but I 

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find really exciting is 
practicing these techniques and 

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working with both technology 
teams, business teams really can

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drive that value. 
So it sometimes we would say I'm

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a practitioner who accidentally 
became an offer, I think very 

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rare, people wrote a book with, 
you know, like a childhood 

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dream. 
I want to become an author, 

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sometimes it because of an 
accident right through 

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experience, Less than some 
people, advised them to write 

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the book and you'll become an 
author. 

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Think that's also, one thing 
that I also found throughout my 

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interviews, a few guests. 
Thanks for writing the book, by 

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the way, it's really a great 
journey, which I think is worth 

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to share with everyone. 
So for people who read the title

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of value flywheel effect, some 
people may be confused. 

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What do you mean by that? 
Do you have like, maybe one 

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statement pitch or value 
proposition? 

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What is value flywheel effect 
and how do you get the 

191
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,800
inspiration from? 
Yeah, well it's really around 

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00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,800
the thing I noticed was the 
business technology divided so 

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00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,800
that was apparent in many 
companies and a lot of companies

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00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,700
have got on the scanner wave of 
cloud and move to the cloud and 

195
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then the value may be has not 
been their competition. 

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May be treating the cloud like 
someone else's data center, it's

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just a fancy data center so you 
get that real value. 

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00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:26,800
You have to really join the 
business and technology 

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00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,100
strategy. 
So Lady of the value flywheel 

200
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:31,800
effect is when you join 
business. 

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This gold for technology calls, 
you start to see this momentum 

202
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,000
this flywheel effect, so it's 
obviously influence from the Jim

203
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,700
Collins is flywheel effect 
concept which is brilliant from 

204
00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,600
good to great and then Jeff 
Bezos. 

205
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,500
Also had this amazones virtuous 
cycle which is really nice. 

206
00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:49,300
Cannot fly will really have with
the value flywheel effect. 

207
00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:53,500
What we find is the four phases.
The first pink, Lord, a purpose.

208
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,500
Let's start with why if we need 
to be extremely clear, that from

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00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:00,800
technology and business, we know
what our North Star is a new 

210
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:01,900
techniques to help people 
figure. 

211
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,900
Right. 
The second phase is challenge. 

212
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,300
You need to create the right 
environment that we can 

213
00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:08,700
challenge each other in the 
team. 

214
00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,500
We can challenge how we're going
to achieve that North Star and 

215
00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:15,500
set ourselves up for Success. 
The third phase is next. 

216
00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:18,000
Best action. 
Once you're pretty clear where 

217
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,500
you're going and you've got the 
right environment, you will be 

218
00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:23,500
execute quickly and for me 
that's bringing in some of the 

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00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:26,800
modernization techniques around 
service exception service first.

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And then the fourth phase is 
long-term value. 

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We can't build a throwaway. 
You need to have a really Solid 

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00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:34,100
understanding of what good looks
like. 

223
00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:37,000
So for me that's a problem 
prevention culture, which is 

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running, well, architected and 
sustainability. 

225
00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:42,500
I can we build but build 
effectively for the long term 

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00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,700
not just build quickly. 
So that is a flywheel that will 

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00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:48,000
continue the turn. 
It's not just warm and on. 

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Once you start that momentum and
it builds very rapidly. 

229
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It's like a rocket ship and then
one of the things that you end 

230
00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,800
up doing as you implement that 
is removing inertia removing 

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sticking points. 
What is slowing down that 

232
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movement? 
Because as you well know, Move 

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to the cloud is not one and 
done. 

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You're an acceleration Journey. 
It gets faster. 

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You need to change how you think
and how you act. 

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So if I can probably simplify a 
little bit for people, you take 

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the concept from the flywheel 
effect from Jim Collins and also

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the Amazon virtuous cycle. 
So, what I can relate is that, 

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it's an iterative process is not
like one big bang Journey, where

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people now becomes transform, 
right? 

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Either moving the technology to 
the cloud or the business 

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becomes digitalized or something
like that. 

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It's a virtual stink is a 
flywheel that's why and also So 

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it's like a lot of things that 
you need to align alignment from

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business and technology. 
So it sounds like it's very 

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similar to some other 
techniques, which are also well 

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known things like agile software
development of a gel business 

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Transformations or it could be 
also deaf Ops or death, 

249
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whatever, Ops this days, right? 
So what actually stands up from 

250
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value flywheel effect that 
probably is different than the 

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other techniques. 
Well, there's a mindset so that 

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for me is across the whole thing
between extremely collaborative,

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main tools that I used as we 
created this value flywheel 

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effect as a technique called 
Wort early, mapping and worldly 

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mapping for me. 
It's a complete Game Change in 

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technique. 
When you start to map these 

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different phases, it gives you 
Clarity on what you should do 

258
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and what you shouldn't do. 
We can explain what worldly mop 

259
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,500
and is for me it's really about 
that Eddie of strategy and what 

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should we do next? 
That's not business strategy or 

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00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:29,500
technology strategy is what do 
we as a team need to do next and

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00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:32,600
worldly mapping gives you that 
Insight greater environment that

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00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,400
you can build that alignment. 
I discovered this probably 

264
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,400
around 10 years ago. 
There's a researcher in the UK 

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called Simon wardley. 
The story was, he was a CEO of a

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technology company and he 
realized when he got the 

267
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,400
position of high growth 
technology company as CEO, that 

268
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,200
all the strategy was nonsense in
his terms, he didn't think it 

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00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,000
was deep enough. 
Off. 

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00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,000
So we come up with this idea of 
worldly mapping and starts with 

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the canvas, the canvas has got X
and Y axis, the very top. 

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There's like a value chain. 
So the very top of the value 

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chain, you've got a customer 
always starts with the customer 

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00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:12,700
and what's that customers need. 
So then there's a chain onto the

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customer, Nate for a component 
which is customer might need, 

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00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,100
for example, something like a 
cup of tea. 

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00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,300
The customer needs a cup of tea.
So then what does the cup of tea

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00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,600
depend on? 
It could be like a kettle. 

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00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,300
Hot water some tea. 
Mr. Could build a devaluation of

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00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,100
what things are dependent, the 
solve the customer need. 

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00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,300
So as you think in your head of 
a value chain going from top to 

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00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:39,700
bottom, the y axis of the map is
visibility things at the top of 

283
00:14:39,708 --> 00:14:42,000
that chain are very visible to 
the customer. 

284
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,900
The customer is aware of the cup
of tea, but they may not be 

285
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:47,500
aware of the cattle or 
electricity will learn that by 

286
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:51,100
Eugene, but they're very aware 
of the can see the cup of tea on

287
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,100
the and from left to right in 
the bottom, this is the kind of 

288
00:14:54,108 --> 00:14:57,300
exciting part. 
Art, that's where the x axis has

289
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:59,400
in. 
This is really the evolutionary 

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00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,000
access for the evil assure 
access those four areas. 

291
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So the first is Genesis. 
So every component and that will

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00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,000
evolve and capability. 
I'll explain that in a second. 

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00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,800
So Genesis of things that are 
brand new, they're like 

294
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,200
wondrous. 
I've never seen this before. 

295
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,500
It's fantastic in you. 
I don't even know I needed. 

296
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,700
I've never even thought of this.
Next phase is custom. 

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00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:24,700
Maybe we understand how we might
be able to build them. 

298
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,700
We're not very good at it yet. 
That's still quite emerging. 

299
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,800
The third phase is product 
things. 

300
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,000
In the product phase are. 
We're starting to get good at 

301
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,800
building these and there's a 
strong customer, need the 

302
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,200
customer are aware of these 
things, and they want them to 

303
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,900
read customer demand. 
And then, the fourth phase is 

304
00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:44,500
commodity. 
So things in commodity, we are 

305
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:48,600
very good at building these, we 
optimized new basically cost of 

306
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200
doing business and customer may 
understand it, but it's like, 

307
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,700
yeah, everyone has one of those,
two evil. 

308
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,100
Skinner axis is what's really 
exciting and the copper T sort 

309
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:01,600
of up the cattle. 
Maybe commodity, you know, a 

310
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,900
cattle is a kettle, it warms the
water, the water is likely 

311
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:09,200
commodity the cop maybe product 
may be given a scope which has 

312
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,200
the experience and the T could 
either be something very Bland 

313
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,100
like a standard type of tea or 
maybe something where you can 

314
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:19,600
have like a high quality, that's
real differentiator so that 

315
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,400
could be more revolutionary and 
that every single component will

316
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,300
evolve from left to right. 
So we think of computers when 

317
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,600
computer start being used by 
business in the 60s, it was just

318
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,200
a thing of Wonder, it was 
actually in the newspaper when a

319
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,900
company got a computer as 
photographs of a computer being 

320
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:38,900
delivered to a company. 
Custom is probably more like the

321
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:40,800
70s and 80s. 
There was lots of different 

322
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,100
types of computers but they were
looking at different and 

323
00:16:43,108 --> 00:16:47,200
non-standard and then as we move
down to the PC era, became 

324
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,400
product, computers are 
everywhere. 

325
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,200
They can a standard get 
different features to solve the 

326
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,900
need lie with Claude. 
It moved it in the Aditi, it's 

327
00:16:55,908 --> 00:16:57,900
not a big deal. 
Everyone has a computer and you 

328
00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,000
just read one from somewhere. 
It's not really a 

329
00:17:00,008 --> 00:17:02,900
differentiator. 
So using that technique to 

330
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:06,500
figure out large strategy, 
business strategy, engineering 

331
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:08,900
strategy, it gets really 
interesting to figure out what's

332
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:12,599
the customer need and then, what
does it depend on and we can 

333
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,099
figure out what are the things 
that we needed really good at 

334
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,599
the things we can rent from 
elsewhere, survival has been a 

335
00:17:18,608 --> 00:17:20,900
great example that we can 
actually rent a lot of the 

336
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:23,700
compute and services from a 
cloud provider, and not have to 

337
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:26,500
build them ourselves. 
Thanks for sharing this. 

338
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:28,400
High-level overview of bodily 
mapping. 

339
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:31,700
I'm sure like poor people, maybe
the first time you hear it, you 

340
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:34,300
probably don't get it. 
I would suggest looking at the 

341
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:37,900
canvas itself it will definitely
give you a much better picture 

342
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:40,200
and analogy. 
What David is talking about. 

343
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,700
There's a great site by a guy 
called Ben Mercer called, learn 

344
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:48,000
orderly mopping.com bands, get 
some great videos where he 

345
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,800
explains this cause you can only
do as you say, you need to see 

346
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,600
the canvas. 
So I would look at the learn 

347
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,700
wardley mopping.com and I also, 
So have a previous episode as 

348
00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,200
well about what they mapping, so
please do check it out in that 

349
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:01,500
episode. 
We talk about what they might be

350
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:04,500
in DDD and some other stuffs, 
please do check out. 

351
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:06,700
So one thing about what, a 
mapping that I realize, 

352
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,700
especially when you look at 
these websites, they always say 

353
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,000
that you will improve your 
situational awareness within the

354
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,300
organization within the business
and technology. 

355
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,600
First of all, how do you 
actually improve your 

356
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,100
situational awareness and why it
is important for organization to

357
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:25,200
do so That's great question, 
actually, one of the things that

358
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,300
we started to realize with 
myself and some of the 

359
00:18:27,308 --> 00:18:31,000
Architects if I was to sit and 
write a PowerPoint or a 

360
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,200
document, it won't. 
I think we should do. 

361
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:38,000
I would go off by myself right 
that and present that because 

362
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,500
I've maybe spent a week right 
now to put that together if they

363
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:43,200
give some feedback. 
It feels like they've been 

364
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,800
critical of my work. 
So that becomes slightly awkward

365
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,200
sometimes especially if it's a 
PowerPoint. 

366
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,400
Some of these in doing a 
presentation with a map, several

367
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,900
Textmate sit down or several 
experts. 

368
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,300
Start the mop out in a 
collaborative manner what do we 

369
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:00,900
think those things are? 
And as you're performing the 

370
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:04,100
action of mopping, you start to 
build situational awareness, 

371
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,600
people say oh we need X. 
I know we don't we need X and Y,

372
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,900
why do we need that? 
So it becomes a more, tune fro 

373
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:15,000
conversation, you create the 
environment where you can 

374
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,800
challenge and build each other's
knowledge. 

375
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,300
It comes less confrontational. 
So this is the idea of building 

376
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:23,700
situational awareness. 
So what you're really doing is 

377
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:25,300
having a structured 
conversation. 

378
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,000
So in the find out what's 
happening across the 

379
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,900
organization and what do we need
to do? 

380
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,200
So it's a great way of building 
trust within a team or a group 

381
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,300
of people and get in that 
situation awareness because you 

382
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:39,300
can't have people sitting like 
right and documents all day 

383
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,900
right in PowerPoints. 
All right, in loads of code 

384
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,000
because what you're not doing is
exchanging information. 

385
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,300
So that idea of mapping is great
with a bill situation, 

386
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:49,700
awareness, because you're having
more collaborative conversation.

387
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,200
It's about the party we need to 
solve this problem, so it is not

388
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,300
just about notation, or new 
techniques modeling techniques. 

389
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,600
Where you come up with a 
different kind of ways of 

390
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,400
representing what you want to 
do. 

391
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,100
But it's actually also the 
collaboration part, exchanging 

392
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:06,200
information, or what you also 
called Maps different maps at 

393
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,700
the end. 
I think the deliverables will be

394
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:11,700
a strategy for the organization 
to execute, so it could be for a

395
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:13,700
short period of time. 
Or it could be also for a long 

396
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:17,900
time period of time. 
Is the outcome is almost like 

397
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,700
what should we do next. 
So will the map away the map 

398
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:23,500
represents our story. 
You're not creating a model, 

399
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,700
it's a thinking tool. 
It's a bit like the saying about

400
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:30,100
plans planning is useful. 
The plans are useless. 

401
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:33,900
So the idea of the action of 
planning is very important, but 

402
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,300
once you got plans on the 
effect, you got to think on your

403
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:38,300
feet. 
Yep. 

404
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:39,500
I've heard about that phrase as 
well. 

405
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,600
I forget exactly the quote, but 
the I heard about that so you 

406
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,000
will fail if you don't plan, 
right? 

407
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,900
But once you plan, you can toss 
the Lan because in the real 

408
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,800
battle field, so to speak, the 
plan doesn't always work. 

409
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,800
So you are always need to adapt.
You mention about the four 

410
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,300
phases of the value flywheel. 
So before we start to the faces 

411
00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:01,100
actually, what Peaks my interest
is the sequence of the faces and

412
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,000
you kind of like pack along a 
Persona to those spaces. 

413
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:06,200
So the phase one is actually for
the CEO. 

414
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,300
The phase one is actually 
Clarity of purpose, the phase to

415
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:11,700
the challenge and the landscape 
Are For Engineers. 

416
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:14,900
So you take the engineers 
Persona there and then for the 

417
00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:17,000
third phase is about Out, next 
best action. 

418
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,500
You take product leaders here 
and then the last one, which is 

419
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:24,400
about the long-term value. 
You Tech CTO, I find the 

420
00:21:24,408 --> 00:21:27,900
sequences little bit odd because
normally, you come from CEO and 

421
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:30,300
then you come to product, maybe,
then to the CDO and then two 

422
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:32,300
Engineers. 
This is typically what happened 

423
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,900
in so many organizations. 
Why you're sequencing is like Co

424
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,200
and then Engineers to product 
leaders? 

425
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,200
Then City, oh, maybe a little 
bit explanation on this part. 

426
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,800
Sure, we can walk through each 
of the phases and definitely 

427
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,400
touch on the Persona. 
And mean, I don't think these 

428
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,800
are necessarily sequential but 
there is definitely an important

429
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,700
order. 
It's already a purpose, I think 

430
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:56,800
CEO needs to be crystal clear on
where we are heading this 

431
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,900
organization for me, the CEO is 
responsible for that vision and 

432
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,200
Mission. 
That's where the buck stops and 

433
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,100
it be sure that the camping 
change interaction for the boat,

434
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,700
one of the techniques we've used
as being great. 

435
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:10,500
There's two different areas that
are important here. 

436
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,100
One Eddie of a North star. 
I've been using the North Star 

437
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:17,000
framework from amplitude for 
many years, and it's a great 

438
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,500
exercise about asking teams. 
Okay, I understand you're doing 

439
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,100
this work. 
Do you know what that Northstar 

440
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:25,800
metric is? 
Can you connect the work to the 

441
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,900
metric? 
Like the CEOs, talking about? 

442
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,100
We're going to the Moon is the 
piece of work. 

443
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:31,800
You're doing. 
Going to help us get to the moon

444
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,600
and the answer needs to be yes. 
And if so high it's like there's

445
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,000
maybe what two or three steps if
it's like no I'm not doing that.

446
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,400
What I'm doing is different. 
That useful. 

447
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,300
The other thing is about time, 
the value, a big part of the 

448
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:50,700
North Star framework is leading 
and lagging metrics and I think 

449
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,800
an innovation is a lagging 
metric, the leading metric of 

450
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,500
something different. 
Maybe it's time to value fast 

451
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,100
feedback loops, be able to 
deploy quickly. 

452
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:01,800
You will have those 
conversations. 

453
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,900
So once you've got good Clarity 
of purpose, you very clear in 

454
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,200
Direction then you want to 
obsess over time the value which

455
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,200
is how can we create value 
quickly and test if it actually 

456
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,800
is right? 
We test our assumptions. 

457
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,100
This related is like a technical
bet. 

458
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,700
We think there's a bet that this
feature will be useful or 

459
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:20,700
customers. 
Let's get in their hands as 

460
00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:23,100
quick as possible, start the 
feedback loop. 

461
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,200
So really, like Clarity of 
purpose is understanding. 

462
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,800
What are we doing and why? 
It's very difficult. 

463
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,900
As, you know when a software 
team, the team don't really 

464
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:32,800
understand why we're doing the 
work. 

465
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,000
The work will not be good. 
So yeah, it's always great to 

466
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,800
start with Clarity of purpose, 
right? 

467
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,300
So for example Simon sinek 
always say start with the why I 

468
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:42,900
think. 
All understand, you need to 

469
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:44,400
start with a vision with the 
mission. 

470
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,100
The problem statement to solve 
for the customer at the end, we 

471
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:50,600
solve for our users. 
Our customers is not for 

472
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,800
something else. 
When you mention about this, not

473
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,400
start framework from amplitude. 
So for some people who may not 

474
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,000
be familiar, what is not star 
framework here, maybe you can 

475
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,700
explain a little bit how it 
works here. 

476
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,400
Mean it's worth looking 
opportunist, Googling Northstar 

477
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,000
framework. 
John Cutler was the product. 

478
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,000
Lines has with amplitude for 
many years. 

479
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,400
I think he's moved on over. 
There he is. 

480
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,200
Is a lot of great talks with the
North Star framework. 

481
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,500
It's kind of like a V shape. 
You start off with the work, 

482
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,100
which is York in the leading 
metric. 

483
00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,600
And then the project of the 
piece of work, you're doing, 

484
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,800
might have good measure of 
success, not measure of success,

485
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:28,400
will have an input into maybe an
objective and then that 

486
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,100
objective will link into your 
North Star metric Spotify. 

487
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:36,100
They had a nice example about 
number of minutes listened to by

488
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,300
customers, so how many minutes 
of Music customers listening to 

489
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,300
so that was an All-Star metric. 
And then after the North Star 

490
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,500
metric, there's like a long-term
volumetric, which maybe, three 

491
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:49,100
years right, which can be 
something like a three to 

492
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:51,800
five-year evasion. 
So you always want to be Tangy 

493
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,300
work through that, you know. 
So you can look at your project 

494
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:58,600
say, well for Spotify, will this
piece of work, help increase 

495
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,800
listening time on the Spotify 
platform. 

496
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,900
So if you have a project around 
fixing up, the debug statements 

497
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:07,800
and a what your glasses and 
maybe it will, or maybe it 

498
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,800
won't, it's a nice questions. 
We will lie in it frame. 

499
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,800
The work you're doing. 
And there's also a nice thing 

500
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,300
here, but mapping is the North 
Star going to differentiate in 

501
00:25:16,308 --> 00:25:18,900
the market are used creating a 
better moisture trap. 

502
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,900
We create something that's going
to genuinely be different. 

503
00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:23,400
So the whole idea of from a 
business and product 

504
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,700
perspective. 
Are we building something that's

505
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,800
going to meet a market. 
Need the, a few other techniques

506
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,500
as well. 
Which I have heard in the 

507
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,900
industry. 
The other one is okay, are, or 

508
00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:34,600
you can just list down a few 
metrics. 

509
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,800
So maybe the differentiator 
here, maybe it's just like the 

510
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,300
way it is being mapped if I 
understand correctly. 

511
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,700
There's a scene. 
Through the book that this is a 

512
00:25:42,708 --> 00:25:46,000
collaborative exercise. 
So it's not like someone shows 

513
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,800
you the picture and say here it 
is, this is the answer, the team

514
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,900
will work through and actually 
figure out how their work maps 

515
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:56,000
to the North Star. 
You may have like it's but like 

516
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,200
impact mapping. 
You may have like ten eighty 

517
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,500
years. 
It's like, let's go after this 

518
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:02,300
one because we think this one 
will be best. 

519
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,400
So again, for me, there's 
something deep rooted in, can I 

520
00:26:05,408 --> 00:26:07,800
tell software development? 
It's not like you just been 

521
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,800
handed a piece of work. 
They go do that. 

522
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,200
Now, you're figuring out. 
Out what type of work you can do

523
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,700
to meet a goal. 
So you know make sure you really

524
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:17,400
focus on the problem. 
Not so much. 

525
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,500
Been handed a solution. 
Yeah. 

526
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,300
Focus on the problem. 
Not handing in the solution. 

527
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:26,300
So the CEO or the leaders, their
job is to actually pick the 

528
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:28,100
problem what they want to solve,
right? 

529
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:31,900
But then the how how people will
solve it is not something that 

530
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,900
is defined by the founders or 
the leaders in the company. 

531
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,000
So I really like that. 
Once you have this Clarity of 

532
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,500
the bus, which is your notes 
app, that's a assume we use the 

533
00:26:40,508 --> 00:26:43,600
North Star framework. 
So once we have the nonstop, The

534
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,400
Next Step that you mention is 
actually to obsess over time to 

535
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,400
Value. 
I think this is very very 

536
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,500
important as well. 
If you can touch on Mike how can

537
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,000
actually people start to think 
about time to Value obsess about

538
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,400
time to Value the singer Award 
of the metrics that matter in 

539
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,600
the ID of the dashboard 
celebrating some kind of Matrix.

540
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,200
A lot of the work done by the 
Dora, the devops research 

541
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,700
assessment around four key 
metrics could deployment 

542
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:12,900
frequency. 
And lead time I think there are 

543
00:27:12,908 --> 00:27:15,900
other metrics, but really think 
it's important to understand 

544
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:19,800
what do we mean by value? 
Can we clarify that can be very 

545
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,700
clear and what is the metric 
that we're going to measure 

546
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:24,400
value by? 
Is it minutes listen to music? 

547
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,000
Or what is that? 
And then, how are we meeting 

548
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600
that need? 
And really, if you have a modern

549
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,300
cloud, or if you're in the 
cloud, you should be deploying 

550
00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:34,600
very frequently. 
It shouldn't be every six 

551
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,100
months. 
You should be able to get 

552
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:38,100
feature some of the Hands Across
America quite quickly. 

553
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,600
So I think there's something 
about being very clear what the 

554
00:27:40,608 --> 00:27:43,700
metrics that matter I've been 
quite transparent about those 

555
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:46,500
metrics. 
Can celebrate nose, creating the

556
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:49,700
right culture that were trendy 
actually through these metrics. 

557
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:52,500
And that contains a proof of 
mindset and they're not kind of 

558
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:55,800
Hidden Away in some secret 
report somewhere or in a Kinect 

559
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,200
comparing teams. 
It was each other. 

560
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,200
So I think there is definitely a
healthy obsession over those 

561
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,000
metrics that matter. 
I really like the way you'll 

562
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,100
mention it, the metrics that 
matter because sometimes in any 

563
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:09,100
organization you have so many 
metrics, do they all really 

564
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:13,000
matter in one Unison? 
So, It's also one thing are they

565
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,800
contributing to the same node 
star and the other thing that 

566
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,400
you touched on earlier, is that 
most of the metrics, like, for 

567
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,500
example, Innovation, or time to 
Market and things like that. 

568
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:23,700
Those are actually lagging 
indicators. 

569
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,600
So I think in this face, what 
you also suggest is that we have

570
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,800
to improve the leading metrics 
that we can control, for 

571
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,300
example, spotify's case minutes 
of songs. 

572
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:36,100
Listen, sometimes we cannot 
really drive people to just play

573
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:37,900
the music, right? 
But what are the leading 

574
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:41,100
indicators that we can drive 
within our control to improve 

575
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,100
that Big metrics. 
So I really like this two-step. 

576
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,400
So maybe if we can go to the 
next phase about Challenge and 

577
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,600
Landscape the Persona Tech to 
this space is engineers. 

578
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:53,500
And you mentioned about two 
things which I find really 

579
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:56,700
fascinating these days. 
These are the psychological 

580
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,100
safety and the socio. 
Technical aspect of the 

581
00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:01,700
organization that started 
psychological safety. 

582
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,200
Why do you think this is very 
important in your value flywheel

583
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,400
effect? 
I think massive piece around 

584
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,500
been team first, like the team 
is the you What of delivery 

585
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:15,500
teams deliver software, not 
individuals, teams lover 

586
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:17,600
software. 
So it's really important like a 

587
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,700
soccer. 
Team will win the game and 

588
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,900
individual player May 
contribute, but the team wins 

589
00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:24,900
the game, no point having a 
great Striker if you don't have 

590
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,000
a defense. 
So for me, it's always been the 

591
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,900
same and software for teams to 
survive and thrive, you need to 

592
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:32,600
create that psychological 
safety. 

593
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,700
When you walk through, Northstar
exercise, people are empowered 

594
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,000
to say, I don't understand that 
metric. 

595
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:42,400
Is that really the right, 
Patrick it Can't be correct 

596
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,000
because the CEO said so there 
needs to be some rational. 

597
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:49,700
People may just not understand 
thinking behind the metric which

598
00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:51,200
is okay. 
You need to be in a safe 

599
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,500
environment. 
You can say can you please 

600
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,900
explain to me what that means 
and it should also be able to 

601
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,700
say well I disagree, what's 
that? 

602
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,400
And you can maybe have a 
conversation. 

603
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,700
There's very smart people and 
software teams so create the 

604
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,200
right environment to allow those
people to ask questions. 

605
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,300
So for me having that team first
environments the way a team gels

606
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:12,600
trusting the team to go after? 
After a problem and not have 

607
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,100
that can a command and control 
type environment whether just 

608
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:16,900
told what to do. 
And they're told not to think, 

609
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,700
that's also part of how we 
largely map as well when we're 

610
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,000
figuring out. 
What we need to do, the people 

611
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,200
are allowed to respectfully 
challenge. 

612
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:27,100
The thinking, is that really the
right thing? 

613
00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:29,300
We need to do. 
So that whole idea of 

614
00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:32,800
psychological safety in how you 
work is about having that 

615
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,900
creative kind of environment, or
we can figure out the best thing

616
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,400
to do and okay, the disagree 
respectfully or board a piece of

617
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,300
work. 
That's think that's massive. 

618
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:44,300
Again, keep going back to this, 
especially in the modern Cloud 

619
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,300
environment because there's so 
much technology. 

620
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:49,300
There's so much Choice. 
Someone may have a much better 

621
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:51,500
way of doing something that 
someone else just made out of 

622
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:53,100
thought about it. 
You have to create that 

623
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:55,100
environment that Engineers are 
already challenged. 

624
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:56,800
Each other. 
Find the best way of doing 

625
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,600
something. 
So, again, for me, that's a team

626
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,900
first environment, every time I 
really like that. 

627
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,700
So team first is always the unit
of delivery, right? 

628
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:07,300
So again, you touch on, it's not
about individual and it's not 

629
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,600
only about the leaders who set 
the direction, set the goals and

630
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,000
also even the house Ow, but it's
always the team the team comes 

631
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,200
first and whenever the team has 
this psychological safety 

632
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,200
almost, kind of like translate 
to people's engagement and 

633
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,700
productivity. 
They can produce the best 

634
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:25,900
quality product or deliverables,
simply because they are 

635
00:31:25,908 --> 00:31:27,600
motivated. 
They understand they can 

636
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,900
challenge. 
They are also okay to say, I 

637
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,800
don't know, and also less about 
blame, right? 

638
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,500
So if some mistakes happen, 
people are safe to say. 

639
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,500
Okay, I did make a mistake and 
we Rectify together as a team. 

640
00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:41,300
I really love that one question.
Maybe from your journey. 

641
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,200
Maybe Liberty Mutual, how do you
actually gauge a teams 

642
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,100
psychological safety? 
There's a number of ways. 

643
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:51,100
I mean, I don't think it just 
depends on a single person. 

644
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,200
It's an organizational measure. 
And I mean, one thing that I 

645
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,400
like is, I always would look at 
the Retro and I tell techniques.

646
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,300
Is there an ID of improvement 
for me just personally that was 

647
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:03,600
one of the major that I would 
use. 

648
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,300
I would like to see, do I see 
continuous Improvement and a 

649
00:32:06,308 --> 00:32:08,700
team, not forced contains 
Improvement. 

650
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,200
Do I see the team genuinely 
trying to make things better? 

651
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:13,700
We try and sings failing right 
and the gel. 

652
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:16,400
So there's a number of things 
that I had put in place to try 

653
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,400
and kidnap Roper. 
Things we still talk about 

654
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,600
hearing demos, the do like kind 
of engineering Excellence, look 

655
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,000
at metrics for teams discuss 
what they'd like to improve. 

656
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:28,500
And then almost like there's a 
say, do Gap. 

657
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,400
The team say the really unhappy 
with their deployment Pipeline 

658
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:33,900
and, you know, create the 
environment or capacity that 

659
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,100
they can fix. 
It could be fix it. 

660
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,100
Or did you say no, we didn't 
have time when you go to the 

661
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:41,200
team. 
Say what would you like to fix? 

662
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,000
Let him say, Well, this here is 
really annoying us and then you 

663
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,400
create the environment where 
they have space to fix it, they 

664
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,800
should actually fix it. 
If they have this long list of 

665
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,300
things that are kind of annoying
them and they never get to fix 

666
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:53,400
them. 
That's a bit of a smell that 

667
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,600
maybe there's something else out
there. 

668
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,500
Team deliver the work, it's not 
the managers the leadership, 

669
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,800
they create the environment to 
help the work happen. 

670
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,400
So I think there's a number of 
things like that. 

671
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:07,200
It is also something about how 
the leadership behave or in 

672
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,200
those teams as well. 
That's it for another very 

673
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,500
important dynamic. 
For sure, I mean, there are many

674
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:15,200
topics this day talking about 
psychological safety, but I 

675
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,900
really like the way you kind of 
like take as an example. 

676
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:21,000
How to gauge by looking at the 
how many kind of improvements 

677
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,800
the team has done, especially 
out of their initiatives. 

678
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,300
It's not like being told from 
the top that they need to 

679
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:29,100
improve something because this 
means that the team also do a 

680
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:31,100
lot of retrospection repeating 
themselves. 

681
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,000
They are okay to say yeah we 
still do bad in this area and 

682
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,100
always continuously improve. 
They are always Improvement. 

683
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,600
I would also be probably 
concerned if they say the team 

684
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,100
doesn't have any backlog. 
Of improvements that they want 

685
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:43,900
to do, right? 
Because that also means maybe 

686
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,400
they don't dare to speak up 
about what things are lacking 

687
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,100
and they might be possessed made
of a lot of delivery ahead of 

688
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:52,300
them, which is also OK and the 
improvements can drop a bit but 

689
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,500
that's all part of the balance 
flow and the team. 

690
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,700
The second aspect is actually, 
you mentioned, the system is the

691
00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:01,400
asset and you bring up the point
about socio-technical systems 

692
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400
view. 
So, tell us what this system 

693
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,100
about, and what is the social 
technical aspect of this view is

694
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,199
there's an interesting phrase 
rowing socio-technical, which is

695
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,500
a very old Phrase, I think it's 
still evolving. 

696
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,699
You can't think of the system as
just a software system because 

697
00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:19,500
there's also what are the teams 
are connected to those 

698
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:23,600
components, massive link here 
with domain driven design, and 

699
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,500
like, what is the organizational
structure? 

700
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,100
Or even think of Conway's law 
where your organizational 

701
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:30,300
structure is related to your 
software architecture. 

702
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,000
There's a piece here about what 
is that entire system? 

703
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,300
Look like teams and software and
that is the asset. 

704
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:38,800
That's the thing. 
You have to design. 

705
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:42,100
You see some companies moving 
People in teams or own can a 

706
00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:46,100
willy-nilly and to fix code, 
that never really works out too 

707
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:47,600
well. 
So there's definitely a piece 

708
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,699
here around thinking, 
holistically around the team's, 

709
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,699
the organization and the 
software which combines two, it 

710
00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:57,200
solves our business problem, 
it's a massive node here to him,

711
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,700
topologies the work from Matthew
skeleton, and manual part, which

712
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:02,900
is also a book released on I.T 
Revolution. 

713
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,300
They talked with four different 
team types streamlined complex 

714
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,400
platform and neighborhood teams.
So there's a big piece here, 

715
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,400
right? 
Ensuring teams are set up for 

716
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,200
success of the right goals and 
are working on the right parts 

717
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,600
of the system. 
So I think that's certainly a 

718
00:35:17,607 --> 00:35:21,200
combination between can of 
Engineering Management, kind of 

719
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,700
architectural, technical 
management to ensure that there 

720
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:26,600
is a more holistic system at 
work here, which I think is very

721
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,000
interesting. 
And once you create that 

722
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,100
environment, where teams of a 
clear goal then you're setting 

723
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:34,500
them for Success, not giving 
them like ten goals that they're

724
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,800
just completely overwhelmed. 
So thanks for explaining that 

725
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,000
because I think you also 
mentioned in the book that we 

726
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,300
need to Build our enable 
empowered Engineers within the 

727
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:47,000
team's being able to analyze, 
not just from the technology 

728
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,200
point of view of people point of
view, but the interactions 

729
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,100
between the technology and the 
people. 

730
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,700
And hence this term 
socio-technical rights, not just

731
00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:57,100
about the people is not just 
about the technology, but the 

732
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,100
interaction between people and 
Technology. 

733
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:01,600
That's why you bring up things, 
like Conway's law, Team 

734
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,200
topologies, all these go into 
this research area, how do we 

735
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,500
actually, optimize the social 
technical aspects of any 

736
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,600
organization? 
So thanks for watching. 

737
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,300
Wind up. 
So let's move to the next phase 

738
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:16,300
which is Phase 3. 
You will mention as the next 

739
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,700
best action. 
So once we know the clarity of 

740
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,500
purpose, once we know the 
challenge and the landscape that

741
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,700
we have for the empowered teams 
or Engineers that we have, the 

742
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:27,000
third phase is to choose the 
next best action. 

743
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:30,600
So tell us about this because it
seems very interesting, right? 

744
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,600
The next best action, there's 
two parts to this to high-level 

745
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,700
Parts piece around developer 
enablement, creating the right 

746
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:42,000
environment for the engineers to
move at read and that is linked 

747
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,600
directly to that service first 
strategy. 

748
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,100
It doesn't have to be service 
versus Morgan modern application

749
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:50,300
strategy. 
But I used the term Service 

750
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:52,200
First Liberty, which is very 
successful. 

751
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,900
And really, the idea is that 
what service first means? 

752
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:59,900
First of all, any kind of 
service technology is something 

753
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,200
that's more likely to be a 
managed Solution by the cloud 

754
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,200
provider. 
It's likely to be pay as you go.

755
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,500
So you pay for what you consume 
and then wanders zero traffic. 

756
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:13,400
Zero charge. 
So things will scale up at 

757
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,700
there's loads of demand and 
skill right back to zero and 

758
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:18,400
you're done, you know, it's not 
infrastructure code or you can 

759
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,400
people talk about function as a 
service, it's not really this 

760
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,900
concept where everything is a 
Lambda or everything is a 

761
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:27,400
function, you're really using 
services to solve the need. 

762
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,700
If you need a database, can you 
get a database behind an API? 

763
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,400
If you need an event thing 
system, can you get an event in 

764
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,800
system behind an API? 
Really, the concept of service 

765
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,200
first? 
Is that the first selection when

766
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,500
you're selecting architectural? 
Components will be a serverless 

767
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,400
service. 
So when a room that could be 

768
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,600
like Lambda event Bridge, step 
functions, even S3 where you're 

769
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,600
minimizing, the amount of 
infrastructure that you 

770
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,200
Day-Lewis from a software 
perspective Service First. 

771
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,400
Meaning, if, for some reason 
those Services, the work, you 

772
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,500
may then fall back to something 
like kubernetes or container 

773
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:03,000
solution. 
When we started this thinking 

774
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,600
back six or seven years ago, 
there was something like cold 

775
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,900
starts, Etc. 
There was some features that 

776
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:11,900
weren't quite there yet. 
It was Reasons to fall back 

777
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:15,000
today. 
And the 2023, there is a lot 

778
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,600
less reasons to fall back. 
A lot of Service Solutions are 

779
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,200
very robust across all the major
public Cloud providers. 

780
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,700
So once you engineers get into 
that, thinking that they don't 

781
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,200
have to spend time, right? 
And thousands of lines of care 

782
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,800
reform to create all this 
complex kind of easy to use. 

783
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,300
They can focus on the problem 
that trying to solve for their 

784
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:37,600
business. 
So, evidenced by his very nature

785
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,500
is event driven, so you start 
working more on event driven. 

786
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,800
Items. 
But is a nice link back to the 

787
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,300
stuff. 
We talked about teams. 

788
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:48,000
And what the purpose of the team
is now you get into teams emit 

789
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,100
events to each other using 
service technology and start to 

790
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:52,900
move and think in a different 
way. 

791
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,800
This can be sometimes 
challenging if you've spent the 

792
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,500
last 10 years working on 
traditional Enterprise Java. 

793
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:02,200
This is quite the leap to Mac, 
but if you've been immersed in 

794
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,800
clothes, we would maybe even 
starting your Cloud Journey. 

795
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:06,800
This is the way. 
These are The Primitives of the 

796
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,800
clothes, in my opinion. 
I think there's a massive shift 

797
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,800
toward here. 
And there's lots of really good 

798
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,400
examples out there of body build
a service architecture. 

799
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:19,200
Very quickly began that idea of 
developer enablement is a big 

800
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,700
part of this because you need to
create the right enabling 

801
00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:25,600
constraints for the engineers 
one being infrastructure as code

802
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,000
as being maybe a single path to 
production or on your 

803
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,500
deployments third movie being a 
good coin strategy or some good.

804
00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:35,000
Can a cloud infrastructure 
setup? 

805
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,900
You think about how security may
be slightly different than 

806
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:41,300
traditional security? 
There's lots of really exciting 

807
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:45,400
thinking in this space but it's 
for me I can see this major can 

808
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:48,900
find dacian of how companies 
modernizing the cloud. 

809
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,600
Thanks for explaining that. 
So if I can understand you are 

810
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,400
not just saying everyone should 
adopt several as Technologies. 

811
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,000
Things like Lambda and things 
like that, but it's more about 

812
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,000
doing the simplest thing you can
do to deliver value. 

813
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:04,600
So as Engineers, we should not 
thinking about doing terraform 

814
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,500
creating infrastructure managing
networks and things like that. 

815
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:09,000
But it's more about doing the 
simplest. 

816
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:11,400
Thing that we can do. 
I mean these days in Cloud 

817
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,400
Technologies there so many 
available Technologies, you can 

818
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,200
just choose not just maybe as 
function as a service only, but 

819
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,800
they are containers to service 
these day. 

820
00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:22,400
They are platform that enables 
you to do that last time people 

821
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,800
used to do maybe hero, cool or 
things like that. 

822
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,600
So I think that's also another 
some kind of like a serverless 

823
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,200
first Paradigm, right? 
The key Point here is to do the 

824
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,500
simplest thing, you can do to 
actually deliver value and you 

825
00:40:33,508 --> 00:40:36,900
also mention a very interesting 
thing, you set the code is a 

826
00:40:36,908 --> 00:40:39,700
liability. 
So as Engineers, our job, Not to

827
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,800
write the code, but our job is 
actually to deliver value for 

828
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,000
the business. 
So, I think this is also very 

829
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,600
interesting because when people 
hire software engineer, they 

830
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,600
don't just see how they deliver 
the value. 

831
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,200
But actually the technical 
competency, how they write code,

832
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,900
how many programs they can 
create. 

833
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,800
So, I think this is also another
important aspects in my view, 

834
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,000
just very quickly to something 
about engineers, understand what

835
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,900
they're being asked to do. 
And sometimes when you have a 

836
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:07,400
problem, what you need to do is 
I need to notify another 

837
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,500
software components. 
Something's And this problem you

838
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,500
have to solve is a communication
problem between A and B. 

839
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:17,000
So many years will say that, 
okay, I need to stand up like 

840
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,100
Africa venting system and we 
start building the huge 

841
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,600
platforms like, well, that may 
be the answer but the problem 

842
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,800
you have to solve is how they 
get an event from A to B know 

843
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,400
what's the simplest way. 
I can make that happen if it's 

844
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,300
even asked us residents to start
with that and then as things 

845
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:37,200
started to get complex, then you
can think about. 

846
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,200
OK, how do I scale that do? 
Move to that. 

847
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,300
Hey scale, infrastructure 
solution, first. 

848
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,300
And also, it depends on the 
context of the organization, 

849
00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:46,500
right? 
Some organization may have 

850
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:49,200
capability in Kafka. 
Maybe they have a platform team 

851
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,600
so you can just tap on that 
expertise, but some 

852
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,700
organizations. 
May not. 

853
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,500
So, don't just introduce new 
technology, simply because it's 

854
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,200
the fancy. 
And the latest hype out there, 

855
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,400
do it in the simplest way to 
bring the value first. 

856
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,300
So I think that's the next best 
action. 

857
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,000
So, let's move on to the next 
one, which is about long-term 

858
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,800
value. 
So, this one you mentioned about

859
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,700
problem, prevention, Culture, 
maybe a little bit of 

860
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:13,400
explanation, how we can actually
do this problem. 

861
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,000
Prevention culture. 
Also things that used to sort 

862
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000
worry me slightly. 
Is that there's this idea that 

863
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,500
we don't need Architects 
anymore. 

864
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,800
And architecture is becoming 
less important. 

865
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:25,800
Architecture is very important. 
You know, if you're sitting in 

866
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,000
the house you should hope that 
it's been well architected. 

867
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,900
It was always problematic for me
that, how do we communicate this

868
00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:36,400
to all of the organization 
sometimes like this feature has 

869
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,600
to scale, so we need to spend 
several weeks figuring out how 

870
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,700
to scale this. 
So it's working, but it's not 

871
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:45,200
ready. 
You want to reward team? 

872
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,100
For doing the work up front to 
make sure that scales you can't 

873
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:53,400
reward individuals who want a 
system, doesn't scale and folds 

874
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,600
over on a Saturday, jump in and 
fix it. 

875
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,600
So let's try and reward the 
people who prevent the problem, 

876
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:01,800
rather than the people who fix 
the problem, is that the sign of

877
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,400
good engineering. 
People can predict, where these 

878
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,500
things are. 
And for me, we spent a lot of 

879
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:09,900
time trying to communicate this,
a big fan of the well, 

880
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:12,600
architecture framework that awas
use. 

881
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:17,100
Well, architected is a phrase 
that a Less Google and deserve 

882
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,400
all use, and they'll hold their 
own versions of well 

883
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,800
architected. 
So, whatever Cloud platform 

884
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,200
you're in, I would go and look 
at the, well, architected 

885
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,400
framework for that provider, but
the experience I have is an AWS 

886
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,800
where the well architected 
pillar framework has the six 

887
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,600
pillars. 
So it's security cost, 

888
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,800
optimization reliability, 
operational excellence 

889
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,500
performance and sustainability 
which is new is added to just 

890
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:45,100
over two years ago and really 
each of those pillars. 

891
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:48,300
As use their own 12 or 13 
questions, it's a lot of best 

892
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,800
practice. 
What I did in the past was, 

893
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,400
instead of having that as a 
service, where an a SS architect

894
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,600
comes in and assesses, your 
workload teams could assess 

895
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,000
their own workload and turn them
into a continuous Improvement 

896
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000
practice. 
So, the team could say, well 

897
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,100
let's span Friday morning during
the operational excellence, 

898
00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:10,600
pillar, I'll name a spot that 
their own books are out of date.

899
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,200
So let's add story to your 
backlog or and contains a proven

900
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,500
to dinner on books. 
It's because it doesn't seem 

901
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,200
that important now. 
But when the system Falls over 

902
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,400
on Saturday night, it's going to
be really important. 

903
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,900
If certain books are correct and
that's for me is a good problem,

904
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,000
prevention culture, because the 
team may go through a checklist 

905
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,200
and release, it doesn't apply, 
and that's okay. 

906
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,300
But the team have the context 
and expertise. 

907
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:35,900
You understand, what will be 
problematic, and they're getting

908
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:40,300
advice from the collective 
wisdom of all the cloud, vendor 

909
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:43,100
Architects here, all the things 
that we have seen gone. 

910
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:45,100
Wrong distilled into good 
practice. 

911
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:49,000
Yes, you would be a fool, not 
the read that good practice, see

912
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,700
if it applies to your work look.
So that's the idea of a problem 

913
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:57,000
for ancient culture and I think 
if in an organization, there's a

914
00:44:57,008 --> 00:45:01,800
modern Cloud capability should 
be empowering your team's to do 

915
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,800
that work and really hard in the
system, because the cloud fails 

916
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,900
all the time, distributed 
systems feel all the time. 

917
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,500
So, we need to ensure our teams 
of the capacity to prevent these

918
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,600
problems from happening. 
So, yeah, I've seen this a well 

919
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,900
architected Frameworks from 
different Cloud providers. 

920
00:45:17,900 --> 00:45:19,900
They are really good. 
I would also highly suggest 

921
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,800
people reading those Frameworks 
because they touch on many 

922
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,500
things, but just one aspect. 
So, from AWS you mentioned, 

923
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:28,400
there are six pillars. 
Now, one question for me is that

924
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,100
those things seem to be specific
to Cloud, right? 

925
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,700
So does the organization also 
need to create their own version

926
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:37,900
of well architected framework. 
Maybe spend not just from cloud 

927
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:41,100
perspective but also maybe 
application development or some 

928
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:42,800
other aspects within the 
organization. 

929
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,900
That's a good question. 
Remember when people talk with 

930
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:48,600
non functional requirement and 
abilities? 

931
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:51,600
No one could remember what all 
the LEDs are because there's so 

932
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,500
many scalability. 
Observability reliability, what 

933
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:57,800
I think is nice about. 
Well architected is you're 

934
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,100
saying, we're going to look at 
these six things I have done 

935
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,400
well, architected reviews on 
on-premise systems. 

936
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:07,800
Because you can still ask a 
question about a run book about 

937
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,000
the cost of the system about 
security about authorization 

938
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,100
authentication, you know, roll. 
Rules all the same questions. 

939
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:19,400
Apply the answer may be slightly
different because sometimes an 

940
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,100
80s will say you should look at 
control tire. 

941
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,700
For example, you need to think 
of what's behind that. 

942
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,800
So you can still use the same 
approach for regular workloads 

943
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,800
that will have to be closed 
workloads, but again, for me, 

944
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,100
it's the way of standardizing on
those non-functional 

945
00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:37,700
requirements that apply the 
every team with. 

946
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:40,500
One thing I used to do list is 
the theme should say of were 

947
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:42,100
different. 
We have high amount of 

948
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:44,400
transactions. 
Were different because we have 

949
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,300
low transactions but the high 
value so every team is 

950
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:50,600
completely different. 
So being able to say, okay let's

951
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,600
assess reliability across all 
our teams. 

952
00:46:53,900 --> 00:46:56,900
The answer is different for your
application but you can still 

953
00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:01,400
say you have any critical risks 
and liability reliability or do 

954
00:47:01,408 --> 00:47:04,600
you only have lower risks? 
So really a good architecture is

955
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,900
about managing risk. 
So you need to educate your 

956
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:11,300
teams on water, the pillars and 
help them assess their own level

957
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:13,800
of risk. 
They understand their own, Text.

958
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,700
That's a very good point. 
So when we talk about long-term 

959
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:19,600
value is not just about the 
fanciness of framework we use, 

960
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,300
but it's actually to prevent 
problems from cropping up in the

961
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:25,900
future, especially when scale, 
or when the load comes suddenly,

962
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:28,600
your system should be able to 
kind of like withstand that 

963
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,400
pressure and definitely, well, 
architected framework. 

964
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,600
The name itself is like well, 
architect that, right? 

965
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,200
That means there are so many 
experience or design patterns or

966
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,400
best practices that people have 
come up with. 

967
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:41,200
So you don't always need to 
reinvent the wheel and come up 

968
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,300
with your own version. 
So what Aspect, which I think 

969
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,900
really important you mentioned 
in this long-term value as far 

970
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:50,000
as well as sustainability. 
I know, it's trendy topics as 

971
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,400
well, these days, but how can 
all the organizations are all 

972
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,500
teams think about sustainability
aspect because some people might

973
00:47:56,500 --> 00:47:58,500
think. 
Yeah, I'm just a small company 

974
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:00,800
or small team. 
I don't have a big impact on 

975
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,400
this so maybe you can have an 
explanation on this part here. 

976
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,800
So I think this is a great 
measure of good architecture. 

977
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:11,700
I think sustainability is hugely
important and there's lots of 

978
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:14,600
different aspects but 
specifically For software if you

979
00:48:14,607 --> 00:48:17,200
have a software system, one of 
the things that we used in the 

980
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,700
past to measure how efficient a 
software was cost, you could 

981
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:24,600
look at the actual Cloud Bill 
and lower cost is more 

982
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,400
efficient, but then sometimes 
the cloud providers will give 

983
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,100
like cost savings plans and 
different discounts. 

984
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,800
So maybe hide some of the lack 
of utilization. 

985
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,200
Know what? 
A lot of the cloud providers are

986
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,200
doing is giving you a carbon 
score for how much carbon that 

987
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,100
workload is using. 
So it will be an actual measure 

988
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:45,100
know, it's Hard to be very 
specific on this measure. 

989
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,900
It's calculated by the cloud 
provider. 

990
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,200
You could pretty much say that a
lower carbon score or carbon 

991
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,700
Barn is a more efficient 
architecture. 

992
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,300
And even though there's a lower 
carbon usage is likely going to 

993
00:48:57,300 --> 00:49:01,400
be a lower cost and select Lee 
going to be simpler or less 

994
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,400
complex system probably design 
their architect slightly better 

995
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:08,500
than once for a wistful and 
burning a lot of extra Cycles. 

996
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:11,200
It doesn't need. 
So it's a nice kind of measure. 

997
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,100
You think is a goal or do we 
write sustained? 

998
00:49:13,300 --> 00:49:15,500
All software. 
So it's really about being 

999
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:18,300
efficient and writing well, 
design software because you 

1000
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:21,700
think about it, if you think of 
a Lambda function you know it's 

1001
00:49:21,700 --> 00:49:24,900
API call it's been up. 
It runs four, maybe 500 

1002
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:28,800
milliseconds and disappeared 
versus any c 2, which is running

1003
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,500
24/7 with APA. 
Open one. 

1004
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:35,400
Call services that in 500 
milliseconds, but it keeps 

1005
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,000
running and waiting, you know, 
the amount of compute used 

1006
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,500
between Lambda and easy to its 
way different. 

1007
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:43,500
So really? 
It's that idea of, can we Our to

1008
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:47,000
think of our carbon usage 
measured by the cloud provider. 

1009
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,800
As a nice measure for good. 
Architecture has aged or let's 

1010
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,400
say, they take care of 
sustainability of the clothes, 

1011
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,500
they'll make sure the data 
center is sustainable. 

1012
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:58,600
You have to make sure that your 
workload is sustainable. 

1013
00:49:58,700 --> 00:50:01,200
Is efficient. 
I think that's a really nice 

1014
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,800
kind of measure how we can. 
Build good systems. 

1015
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:05,900
You're dodging a very good 
point. 

1016
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:08,600
I would say that a good 
architecture is efficient and 

1017
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,400
probably also gives a very low 
carbon footprint. 

1018
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,500
Now, these days are so many 
technologies that that can just 

1019
00:50:13,508 --> 00:50:16,500
easily spin up spin down. 
You don't always have to have a 

1020
00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:20,100
VM running all the time or maybe
except your database I guess. 

1021
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:21,200
Right. 
People don't want to have 

1022
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,100
database being spin-up and 
spin-down out but apart from 

1023
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:26,800
that I think for many back end 
so you can touch on a more 

1024
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,300
carbon friendly Technologies. 
Things like containers also has 

1025
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,800
paradigms have less Technologies
and I think everyone has the 

1026
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,100
responsibility. 
I would say to play our part in 

1027
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,700
sustainability because the world
is also changing because of this

1028
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,000
climate change and things 
related to sustainability. 

1029
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,200
We all have our Possibility to 
save the world, so to speak. 

1030
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,800
So David? 
It's been a very exciting 

1031
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,600
conversation. 
Unfortunately, we have to wrap 

1032
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,500
up pretty soon, but I have one 
last question that I would like 

1033
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:54,900
to ask you, which I call the 
three technical leadership 

1034
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:56,700
wisdom. 
So you can think of it like, 

1035
00:50:56,700 --> 00:50:59,800
advice for listeners out there 
and maybe from your experience, 

1036
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,300
or from your journey of from 
your book. 

1037
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:05,500
So what will be your tree Tech 
leadership wisdom or questions? 

1038
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,100
First of all, I think is 
probably around your writing 

1039
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:12,500
ability concise writing, think 
writing the same as coding 

1040
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:15,500
whatever line Would you use? 
You should be a master of that 

1041
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:19,000
language, they write in a 
concise manner as Engineers, we 

1042
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,800
often learn mathematics and 
programming and we don't really 

1043
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,800
learn how to write, but it's 
very important to be able to 

1044
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,800
communicate to a lot of people 
to write well and writing is 

1045
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,900
also a thinking tool so it helps
gather your thoughts. 

1046
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,500
It's a lifetime practice, you 
can always get better out. 

1047
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:35,900
So I think it's good to focus on
concise writing. 

1048
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,000
The second one's probably 
emotional intelligence which I 

1049
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,100
think is interesting one. 
I think is your attack leader 

1050
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:45,000
working with a lot of There's 
thinking to deal respond that 

1051
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,600
they now make and different 
conversations where people are 

1052
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,000
coming from, can't just assume 
that you're correct all the time

1053
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:53,400
and everyone else is wrong. 
You need to consider if 

1054
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,000
different roles different 
experience. 

1055
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,600
So it's really important that at
least, understand, emotional 

1056
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,000
intelligence, and understand 
different signs, Etc. 

1057
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,900
And just be a good human being 
and then the third is probably 

1058
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,300
only won't, it's okay. 
Not to know the answer. 

1059
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,600
People often assume that the 
technical lead knows all the 

1060
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,100
answers but often they just know
how they asked a question. 

1061
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,800
Or they're brave enough to say, 
I don't know the answer. 

1062
00:52:16,100 --> 00:52:18,900
You create a good environment. 
So you'll probably find that all

1063
00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:21,600
three of those. 
If not really much through the 

1064
00:52:21,607 --> 00:52:24,400
technology, is there more to do 
with communicating with people 

1065
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,900
think being a technical lead is 
more about how you can work with

1066
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:30,500
other people in your team's. 
You still need to know the 

1067
00:52:30,500 --> 00:52:32,300
technical knowledge. 
You still need to build the 

1068
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:34,400
code. 
That's also really important but

1069
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,100
you need to have those really 
strong communication techniques.

1070
00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:40,400
So, I would say writing 
emotional intelligence and it's 

1071
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,500
okay not to know the answer. 
And really liked the last one 

1072
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:46,000
because many people think by 
being a leaders, you need to 

1073
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,400
have all the answers. 
You need to be able on the spot,

1074
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,900
give some suggestions or fix the
problems, but many things in 

1075
00:52:51,900 --> 00:52:54,900
software technology, these days 
are really hard and they are 

1076
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:57,200
always new, right? 
So I don't think anyone could 

1077
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,400
ever muster everything, so it's 
okay to be vulnerable and say, I

1078
00:53:00,408 --> 00:53:02,400
don't know. 
I'll try to figure out next 

1079
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,200
time, so yeah, it's a very good 
and beautiful message for 

1080
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,500
leaders out there, especially 
the engineering leaders. 

1081
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,500
So David, if people want to 
connect with you they want to 

1082
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:12,700
find out more about your books 
or Things. 

1083
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:14,700
Is there place where they can 
find you online? 

1084
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,300
Yeah, we've got the service age 
which is Surplus eight.com. 

1085
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,500
Such for will have a lot of our 
blogs when we have a podcast 

1086
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:24,800
called surface crack which is 
cracked. 

1087
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,000
That spelled CRA. 
I see, you can have an Irish 

1088
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,000
word for can good foam so 
myself. 

1089
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,300
Mike, we a very short podcast. 
We just have over the phone. 

1090
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:36,400
Let me talk with these Concepts 
and obviously the value flywheel

1091
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,300
effect is available for all 
good. 

1092
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:41,900
Booksellers from 80 Revolution, 
so it's on Amazon on Kindle. 

1093
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:44,700
Inaudible and give her back. 
Thanks. 

1094
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:46,700
I'll make sure to put all of 
them in the show notes. 

1095
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:48,000
So thank you so much for your 
time. 

1096
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,500
David. 
I really enjoyed our 

1097
00:53:49,500 --> 00:53:51,700
conversation. 
Thank you, Henry. 

1098
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:56,900
It's been a pleasure. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1099
00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:00,300
episode and for staying, right 
until the end if you highly 

1100
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:02,700
enjoyed it. 
I would appreciate if you share 

1101
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:05,100
it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

1102
00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:07,500
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

1103
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:10,500
And if you are new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

1104
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:13,000
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

1105
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,700
It helps me a lot. 
In order to grow this podcast 

1106
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:17,900
better. 
You can also find the full show 

1107
00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:21,300
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at technology 

1108
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,100
Arnold death website, including 
the full transcript enter, In 

1109
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:28,100
quotes and links to the 
resources mention from the 

1110
00:54:28,100 --> 00:54:31,000
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1111
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,600
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on pack leader dot f to get

1112
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,800
notified for any future 
episodes. 

1113
00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:39,700
Stay tuned for the next 
technology, another episode. 

1114
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,700
And until then goodbye,