1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,320 And so I think the first thing I would tell talent to do is not 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,480 to start a job search by looking for jobs, to really start a job 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,240 search by understanding at a deeper level who you are, what 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,320 you value, how you like to work, what type of career you're 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,720 building. And most important, like what 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:28,870 are you solving for right now? Hey everyone, my name is Henry 7 00:00:28,870 --> 00:00:32,650 Surya Viravan. And you're listening to the 8 00:00:32,650 --> 00:00:36,090 Technical Journal Podcast, the show where I'll be bringing you, 9 00:00:36,090 --> 00:00:39,330 the greatest technical leaders, practitioners and thought 10 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:42,730 leaders in the industry to discuss about their journey, 11 00:00:43,010 --> 00:00:47,490 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 12 00:00:47,490 --> 00:00:51,050 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 13 00:00:51,050 --> 00:00:54,250 personal work. So let's dive into our journal. 14 00:00:59,470 --> 00:01:02,630 Welcome back to the Techly Journal Podcast, the podcast 15 00:01:02,630 --> 00:01:04,709 where you can learn about technical leadership and 16 00:01:04,709 --> 00:01:08,350 excellence from my conversations with great 4 leaders in the tech 17 00:01:08,350 --> 00:01:11,110 industry. If you haven't, please subscribe 18 00:01:11,150 --> 00:01:14,630 on your podcast app and social media on LinkedIn, Twitter and 19 00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:16,910 Instagram, and for video contents. 20 00:01:17,110 --> 00:01:20,790 You can also subscribe on YouTube and TikTok and if you 21 00:01:20,790 --> 00:01:22,750 have been enjoying Techly, journal contents. 22 00:01:23,150 --> 00:01:26,590 Support my work by either buying me a coffee at techlyjunal dot 23 00:01:26,590 --> 00:01:31,390 def tip or becoming a patron at techlyjunal dot def patron. 24 00:01:32,470 --> 00:01:35,030 My guest for today's episode is Andre Martin. 25 00:01:35,390 --> 00:01:38,310 Dr. Andre is the author of Wrong Fit Right Fit. 26 00:01:38,910 --> 00:01:41,950 In this episode he shared the importance of finding the right 27 00:01:41,950 --> 00:01:46,310 fit company for us in our work. Dr. Andre used the analogy of 28 00:01:46,310 --> 00:01:49,790 writing with a non dominant hand to explain working in a wrong 29 00:01:49,790 --> 00:01:52,280 fit company. He shared some of the common 30 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,320 misalignments such as the modern hiring practices, infinite 31 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,880 browsing and company cultured act trend. 32 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,720 Dr. Andre then explained how we can work towards finding our 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,040 right fit company by doing more self reflection using some fit 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,520 excursions shared in his book. He also touched on the important 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,160 concept of buffers and the role of leaders and managers in the 36 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,470 workplace towards the end. Dr. Andre shared some practical 37 00:02:19,470 --> 00:02:23,510 tips on how companies can create a better right fit culture in 38 00:02:23,510 --> 00:02:27,070 the organizations. I hope you enjoy listening to 39 00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:30,230 this episode and find some useful tips to finding the right 40 00:02:30,230 --> 00:02:33,070 fit, company and work. And if you think someone else 41 00:02:33,070 --> 00:02:36,070 will benefit from this episode, please help Share it with your 42 00:02:36,070 --> 00:02:39,430 colleagues, your friends and communities and leave a 5 star 43 00:02:39,430 --> 00:02:42,390 rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 44 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:46,110 It will help me a lot in getting more people discover and listen 45 00:02:46,110 --> 00:02:48,610 to this podcast. And I really appreciate it. 46 00:02:49,330 --> 00:02:52,810 Let's go to my conversation with Dr. Andre after quick words from 47 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:55,410 our sponsor. Are you looking for a new cool 48 00:02:55,410 --> 00:02:58,330 swag? 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Hello everyone. 56 00:03:21,170 --> 00:03:23,970 Welcome to the new episode of the Tech Digital Podcast. 57 00:03:24,010 --> 00:03:26,810 Today, I'm very happy to have Doctor Andre Martin here. 58 00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:29,930 He is the author of Wrong Fit, Right Fit. 59 00:03:30,290 --> 00:03:33,010 Why How we work matters more than ever. 60 00:03:33,450 --> 00:03:37,010 So Doctor Andre Martin is an organizational psychologist. 61 00:03:37,370 --> 00:03:41,090 So I always love to talk with authors in this kind of area so 62 00:03:41,090 --> 00:03:44,160 that we can learn how to build. A high performing organization 63 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,520 where people are thriving and happy and engaged as well. 64 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,360 So Dr. Andre, welcome to the show. 65 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,720 Really happy to have you here. Thank you, Henry. 66 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,000 It's great to be here. Dr. Andre, I love to ask my 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,280 guests to first share about themselves, right? 68 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,960 Talking more about maybe career highlights or major turning 69 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,120 points so that we can all learn from you. 70 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,920 Fantastic. So I'm currently living here in 71 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,040 Portland OR with my wife. I have two kids, 2 English labs 72 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:12,710 and my career started back in grad school and I became an 73 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:16,310 organizational psychologist and my first job was in a small 74 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:20,510 consulting firm working in steel mills and factories in the 75 00:04:20,510 --> 00:04:24,030 Midwest doing team based leader assessments. 76 00:04:24,510 --> 00:04:27,030 And then I went to a place called the Center for Creative 77 00:04:27,030 --> 00:04:29,790 Leadership, which is one of the top executive development firms 78 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:34,590 in the world, and really got to work with Coach, train some of 79 00:04:34,590 --> 00:04:37,190 the best leaders in the world and learned a ton about what it 80 00:04:37,190 --> 00:04:39,990 means to run a company and how to be a leader and build a great 81 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:42,550 culture. And I had these series of roles 82 00:04:42,550 --> 00:04:45,550 either as the Chief Learning Officer or Chief Talent Officer 83 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:50,550 at renowned companies like Mars, Nike, Target and Google. 84 00:04:50,830 --> 00:04:54,830 And since leaving Google, I've really started working with VC 85 00:04:54,830 --> 00:04:59,270 and growth equity firms, doing human capital operating work for 86 00:04:59,270 --> 00:05:01,110 them. So really, helping founders to 87 00:05:01,110 --> 00:05:05,680 just build better companies, and I'd say all of those experiences 88 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,280 have just been fantastic. I've learned a ton about 89 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,920 culture, around how to build a great work environment, and 90 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,080 really how to help talent grow faster than the company. 91 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,920 Thanks for sharing your story. So one thing that we're going to 92 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,120 learn today is from your experience, right, having work 93 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,240 in all these great companies and also from your experience how to 94 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,760 build talents and having people more thriving in the companies. 95 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,280 So let's start with your book. Right. 96 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:31,320 Wrong fit. Right fit. 97 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,920 The title itself sounds very intriguing, right? 98 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:37,600 I'm sure in the past few years people have been experiencing 99 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,080 this kind of maybe personal challenges, right? 100 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,800 How to find the right fit company to work with? 101 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,520 And you say that there is a right fit company waiting for 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,840 everyone. So let us talk maybe a little 103 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,760 bit more about why do you see this as a problem or what kind 104 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,040 of challenges that people are seeing at this time. 105 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:57,510 Yeah, Henry. So I'd start with just the 106 00:05:57,510 --> 00:05:59,750 reason that I started writing the book. 107 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:01,870 Originally, I thought I was going to write a book about 108 00:06:01,870 --> 00:06:07,030 culture in this new era of work, the post COVID, hybrid ways of 109 00:06:07,030 --> 00:06:10,150 working, the great resignation, all the things. 110 00:06:10,190 --> 00:06:14,150 And so I went into the book writing starting with this idea 111 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:16,270 that it's really about good or bad culture. 112 00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:19,870 And if you can figure out the keys to building a great 113 00:06:19,870 --> 00:06:22,910 culture, you can get talent to come and they'll stay there for 114 00:06:22,910 --> 00:06:25,100 their career. And I think what happened is 115 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:28,140 that early in the conversations, I started by just talking to 116 00:06:28,220 --> 00:06:32,740 everyone in my network, CE O's, Chr, O's, great leaders, 117 00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:36,780 aspiring talent. And what became really clear 118 00:06:36,780 --> 00:06:40,340 really fast was there's not one way to build a great culture, 119 00:06:40,780 --> 00:06:44,100 There's not one great company, And I take my own experience. 120 00:06:44,460 --> 00:06:47,860 Target is very different than Mars, is very different than 121 00:06:47,860 --> 00:06:49,460 Nike, is very different than Google. 122 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:52,740 And so that got me on this place of, hey, maybe it isn't about 123 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:56,860 good or bad culture or one right way to build a company. 124 00:06:57,340 --> 00:06:59,860 Maybe it's around right or wrong fit. 125 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:04,220 So how can we help companies get clearer about how they work, how 126 00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:07,420 they collaborate, how they solve problems, manage conflict, 127 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:11,540 socialize, develop people, give feedback, all the things that 128 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:14,340 make up work. And what if we could help talent 129 00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:16,740 figure out their work preferences? 130 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:18,760 What do I value and how I like to work? 131 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,040 And then if we can put those two things together, more talent 132 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,680 will land in companies that allow them to just do their best 133 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,240 every day. Right. 134 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,080 So I think it's what you're saying is like it's not just 135 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,440 about great culture, great companies, right. 136 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,400 So everyone has a place in any kind of companies as long as it 137 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,560 fits their preference right, either way of working or the 138 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,460 kind of people that were there. Maybe the job itself whether 139 00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:47,140 it's challenging or not. So I think the key message first 140 00:07:47,140 --> 00:07:48,900 is about finding the right fit, right? 141 00:07:49,340 --> 00:07:52,180 But one thing that I want to highlight is that you say that 142 00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:55,780 if we work at a wrong fit company, right, the metaphor is 143 00:07:55,780 --> 00:07:57,980 like writing with our non dominant hand. 144 00:07:58,420 --> 00:08:01,380 So maybe elaborate a little bit more about this metaphor. 145 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,280 Yeah. So Henry, let me start with just 146 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,200 a stat that sort of got me really motivated to write the 147 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,480 book. And it's a Gallup statistic that 148 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,280 says we have $7.8 trillion of lost productivity in our 149 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,200 companies due to disengagement due to the idea that people 150 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,680 don't feel connected to their company, connected to their job. 151 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,200 And so they're just not doing their best work. 152 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,980 And so because our talents not doing their best work, then 153 00:08:30,980 --> 00:08:34,179 we're not delivering the best for our customers. 154 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:37,780 And so when I think about engagement, an easy way to think 155 00:08:37,780 --> 00:08:40,940 about that is when you're in an engaging environment, a place 156 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:43,580 that makes sense to you, that works the way that you work. 157 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:48,380 Work feels easy, It's effortless, you're putting in 158 00:08:48,380 --> 00:08:50,780 the hours, but it doesn't feel hard. 159 00:08:51,340 --> 00:08:55,220 And when you're in a wrong fit environment, it's stressful, you 160 00:08:55,220 --> 00:09:00,350 feel less productive, you feel less competent, you have less 161 00:09:00,350 --> 00:09:03,870 confidence in your work. And all those things from a 162 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:06,790 metaphor standpoint sort of became really clear in this 163 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:09,990 metaphor about writing with your dominant or non dominant hand. 164 00:09:10,270 --> 00:09:12,950 When we write with their dominant hand, it's easy, it's 165 00:09:12,950 --> 00:09:16,390 fluid, it's high quality. We don't even have to think 166 00:09:16,390 --> 00:09:19,110 about it right. We're just writing whatever 167 00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:22,950 poetry or great novel or great work that we're we're working 168 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:24,550 on. When you work with your non 169 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:27,310 dominant hand, if you ever tried it, it's really hard. 170 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:32,020 Your quality is terrible, it's stressful, it takes a lot of 171 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:35,700 effort and concentration and in the end you walk out not feeling 172 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:37,980 like it's your best work. And so that was sort of a 173 00:09:37,980 --> 00:09:41,100 metaphor that everyone could relate to, and you could have a 174 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:44,260 real visceral feeling of what it feels like if you're not in a 175 00:09:44,260 --> 00:09:46,380 highly engaged environment that fits you. 176 00:09:47,380 --> 00:09:50,300 I did give it a try to write with a non dominant hand before, 177 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:51,900 right? It is like what you said, it's 178 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:53,860 really hard. I mean we can produce the 179 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:55,620 output. Maybe other people can still 180 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:58,300 read what you wrote. But yeah, it's like a lot of 181 00:09:58,340 --> 00:09:59,740 effort. We need to focus and 182 00:09:59,740 --> 00:10:03,020 concentrate, right, and try to be conscious with the movement 183 00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:05,060 of our hands. I think similar things when we 184 00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:07,460 work in a company that is a wrong fit for us, right? 185 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:10,460 We try to adapt. We try our best to work hard. 186 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:12,900 And I think like what you said in the beginning, right, I 187 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:14,540 personally also experienced it myself. 188 00:10:14,540 --> 00:10:17,540 It's not about the companies. So I work in big companies, 189 00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:20,540 great companies as well. But sometimes when you just 190 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:24,100 didn't feel that is the right place for you, I think you will 191 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:25,420 feel these kind of things as well. 192 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,000 So what do you think are some of the misalignment so to speak 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,880 where even though the person works in a great companies but 194 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,720 they still don't feel it's the right fit for them. 195 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,960 Maybe you can share a little bit more what kind of misalignments 196 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,000 that people have normally in their working environment. 197 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,840 Yeah, I'd be happy to. I think it's important for the 198 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,240 listeners, first Henry, to realize that the book is based 199 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,480 on about 100 interviews with talent from all over the world, 200 00:10:53,980 --> 00:10:58,820 from CE O's and founders down to aspiring talent just entering 201 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:00,380 the workplace. And the one thing that was 202 00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:04,660 really cool for me and holding those interviews was everybody's 203 00:11:04,660 --> 00:11:07,900 had a right fit and a wrong fit experience. 204 00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:11,380 And when they talk about the wrong fit experience, they talk 205 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:14,980 about feeling like they weren't at home, they couldn't be 206 00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:18,020 themselves. And one of the my favorites is 207 00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:21,100 they talked about this idea of it felt like everyone had the 208 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:24,420 secret decoder ring of success except for me. 209 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:27,460 And they would look out in the world and say there's people 210 00:11:27,460 --> 00:11:30,460 that look like me, there's people that work like me, 211 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:34,180 there's people that have the same experiences, knowledge and 212 00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:37,300 education that I have. And it looks like every day that 213 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:41,580 this is just easy for them, that success comes to them every time 214 00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:43,380 they pick up a pin or go to a meeting. 215 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:46,700 And for the person talking, it still felt really hard. 216 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,840 And I think what that tells you is that, you know, it's not as 217 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,560 simple as just having the right set of skills or the right 218 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,040 values that the way we work there's a lot of really 219 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,640 important elements. And if you don't fit, the other 220 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,480 thing that a lot of the folks in wrong fit environments told me 221 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,920 is when they didn't fit, you know what they did, Henry, they 222 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,320 worked harder. They tried to change their ways 223 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,800 of working, they tried to alter who they are. 224 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,980 They effectively tried to work with their non dominant hand and 225 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:18,460 it just cost them energy, cost them engagement, cost them 226 00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:21,740 confidence and in many cases almost cost them their careers. 227 00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:25,340 And why do you think people? I mean, the first preference for 228 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:28,660 them is to work harder, right? I think sometimes this is quite 229 00:12:28,660 --> 00:12:31,220 intriguing. So we know that we are not happy 230 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:33,620 doing that kind of job or being in that environment. 231 00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:36,060 But why people? The first preference is always 232 00:12:36,060 --> 00:12:39,780 to work harder, try to learn more, do more and things like 233 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:42,080 that. Yeah, I think here it comes down 234 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,440 to a couple things. First is the way our HR systems 235 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,080 are set up. We're sort of made to feel like 236 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,360 we're not performing well. Like we're not doing the job 237 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,960 we're supposed to do. Because you think about your 238 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,440 performance reviews, right? If you're not in a right fit 239 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,800 environment, there's a chance you're getting a three instead 240 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,200 of A5. And so someone's telling you 241 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,080 you're not doing a good enough job when in fact it's not that 242 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,410 you're not doing it, it's that the system, the way the company 243 00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:11,330 works, doesn't make it easy for you. 244 00:13:11,890 --> 00:13:14,530 And so I think the first thing is many of our HR systems make 245 00:13:14,530 --> 00:13:19,810 us feel like it's our fault that were flawed or incapable or not 246 00:13:19,810 --> 00:13:21,490 good enough. And that's just not true. 247 00:13:21,810 --> 00:13:24,970 A number of my interviewers left these wrong fit experiences 248 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:27,450 where they felt that way. And they've gone on to have 249 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:29,690 exceptional careers. They've built companies. 250 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:33,930 They're the CEO, the CHRO, the head of technology for all these 251 00:13:33,930 --> 00:13:36,090 great places. And they look back at those 252 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:38,130 wrong fit stories and they're like people were telling that I 253 00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:41,730 wasn't good and it wasn't that they weren't good, they just 254 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:43,770 didn't fit. And so I think that's one issue. 255 00:13:43,770 --> 00:13:46,450 I think the second thing is we all want to succeed. 256 00:13:46,930 --> 00:13:50,290 We all want to be great. We all want to do a good job. 257 00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:51,930 I believe that about most people. 258 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:55,730 And so when we're not feeling like we're doing our best work, 259 00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:59,770 we tend to just want to try harder, stay longer hours, put 260 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:03,290 in more effort. And in the end, that just gets 261 00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:07,640 us more stressed, more frustrated, and it also has a 262 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,400 profound impact on our life outside of work. 263 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,120 Yeah. So I think the profound impact, 264 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,720 like you said, outside work, right? 265 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,880 I think that really, really is important for people to realize, 266 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,240 right? So you may be frustrated at work 267 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,760 and you think you can switch off at home, but most of the times, 268 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,800 from my personal experience, you can't, right? 269 00:14:26,180 --> 00:14:28,860 It will just affect you. Sometimes it's about negativity, 270 00:14:28,860 --> 00:14:31,140 sometimes the mood that you bring to other people. 271 00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:34,300 So do realize that And I think what you said just now when you 272 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:37,580 explain the HR system the way like the performance management 273 00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:39,660 is done, right. So I think people have to 274 00:14:39,660 --> 00:14:43,180 realize sometimes if you didn't perform well in that particular 275 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:45,540 cycle in that particular company, it doesn't mean that 276 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:47,940 you are not good, right. So I think that's a key message 277 00:14:47,940 --> 00:14:49,780 that I just want to highlight as well. 278 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,680 So you mentioned about way of working and in your book you 279 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,280 mentioned a lot of times about way of working. 280 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,600 First of all, what is way of working and why is it so 281 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,760 important for people to find the right fit way of working? 282 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,840 Yeah, when you think about it, we assume that when we go to our 283 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,640 job, no matter what company that we work in, it's the same job, 284 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,520 right? Engineer. 285 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,360 One company's the same job as an engineer in another. 286 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,240 But what's really interesting is when you break down how 287 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,030 companies work. When you think about how a 288 00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:25,630 company sets strategy, prioritizes, collaborates, 289 00:15:25,630 --> 00:15:30,390 solves problems, brainstorms, socializes, gives feedback, 290 00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:35,910 develops people, how they gather the relationship with time, how 291 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:37,470 they think about rest and recovery. 292 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:41,350 All these things are very different depending on the 293 00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:44,670 company you work in. And companies aren't very good 294 00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:47,600 at defining those. That is, they don't tell people 295 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,800 overtly on their first day. Here's the road map, the 296 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,920 playbook for how our company works going be great. 297 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,360 What they do instead is they kind of let those grow 298 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,880 organically. They just let them sort of be 299 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,120 created over time by leaders who come in and take positions and 300 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,560 do these new things. And so two things happen on one 301 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,760 side. There's not really that recipe 302 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,760 for success anymore. It's more of just a bunch of 303 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,320 different leaders ways of preferring to work. 304 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,840 And the other thing that happens is we actually ask talent to 305 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,320 bump into those. So because we're not really 306 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,520 clear and consistent about how we work in a company, we say, 307 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,840 Henry on your second day, get out there and you'll figure it 308 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,000 out. But The thing is every time I 309 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,080 have to try to figure out how to be great, my creative energy is 310 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,560 going to coordination as opposed to my craft or what I do really 311 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,280 well. So we're bleeding engagement and 312 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,390 creative energy on really great people trying to figure out how 313 00:16:44,390 --> 00:16:46,230 to be really great inside the company. 314 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:50,110 And so I guess the thesis is if companies were a little bit 315 00:16:50,110 --> 00:16:53,230 clearer about how they worked, how they did all those things I 316 00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:58,390 talked about and they were consistent in asking any leader 317 00:16:58,390 --> 00:17:01,790 that joins the company to learn how work gets done here. 318 00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:05,630 And then if they told talent on their first day how to get it 319 00:17:05,630 --> 00:17:10,510 done, imagine how much faster you are to productivity and how 320 00:17:10,510 --> 00:17:12,950 much a better chance you have of being successful. 321 00:17:13,589 --> 00:17:15,670 Right. So I think I read some parts of 322 00:17:15,670 --> 00:17:18,030 your book where you mentioned when the company was small, 323 00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:20,950 maybe they did define like what kind of culture, what kind of 324 00:17:20,950 --> 00:17:23,310 values they want. But as the company grows and 325 00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:27,150 they hire more outsiders, right, the leaders, the managers, they 326 00:17:27,150 --> 00:17:29,070 all bring their own way of working, right? 327 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:32,110 But you as a company don't actually ask them to change the 328 00:17:32,110 --> 00:17:35,430 way of working so that it follows what the company values. 329 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,560 So I think that's also a great thing as well for leaders here 330 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,640 to understand that you cannot just let the culture of the 331 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,040 values grow organically because there's so many people. 332 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,200 And it can bring you to either positive for sure, there's a 333 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,400 chance for that, but mostly negative, right, because there's 334 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,400 just too many perspectives at one time. 335 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,360 First of all, thank you for reading it. 336 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,800 I mean, I couldn't have done a better job of talking about that 337 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,960 if I tried. But I do want to underline a 338 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,240 point that you made in there, which is every company has a 339 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,260 secret sauce. It has a a unique way that it 340 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:09,260 works. Think of it as a playbook or as 341 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:12,900 an operating model for success and it usually originates way 342 00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:16,980 back in the founding. And then as we continue to do 343 00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:20,460 work, because we're in close proximity to each other, we 344 00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:22,260 model the way we want other people to work. 345 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:24,500 So they see it, they pick it up, they work like we work. 346 00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:28,260 But then what tends to happen is imagine if you're let's say 100 347 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:32,020 person organization and you add 200 people to your company. 348 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:36,120 Those 200 people are coming from somewhere else that has a 349 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:39,240 different way of working that models different things. 350 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,800 So they're all bring a backpack full of ways that work gets done 351 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,000 from principals work is based on to practices and tools that we 352 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,320 use to even the platforms that we have. 353 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,640 And so what's really interesting about this is because we haven't 354 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,560 really done our due diligence on keeping a hold of our secret way 355 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,960 of doing, working our, you know, our secret sauce. 356 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,320 We end up creating 3 versions of the company. 357 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,080 The first version of the company is the one that recruiters give 358 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,280 us in hiring. It's sort of this aspirational 359 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,240 version of the company, either who it was when it was young or 360 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,880 what we wish it was every day. And we're going to present this 361 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,040 to you like the greatest brand campaign ever. 362 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,920 And so I think, wow, what a great place to work. 363 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,880 I can't wait to join. I'm meeting my leaders on their 364 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,800 best day. I'm getting introduced to people 365 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,560 who have all this energy and excitement because they want to 366 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:28,960 impress me. They want me to come join, 367 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,760 right. And then you get there the first 368 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,890 day and you get sort of the best version of the real company. 369 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:37,970 They put the best leaders into your orientation program. 370 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:40,530 They show you the products, they tell you all these great 371 00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:42,970 customer stories. They introduce you to the work 372 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:45,690 platforms that actually work and they have. 373 00:19:45,690 --> 00:19:49,890 You sort of use those things like e-mail or our insurance 374 00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:51,610 systems when you pick your insurance. 375 00:19:51,810 --> 00:19:54,250 And then the last version of the company is the company you work 376 00:19:54,250 --> 00:19:57,170 in every day. And often that's where we 377 00:19:57,170 --> 00:20:00,330 actually run into the reality of what it's going to feel like any 378 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:03,210 given Tuesday. And think about it, if we start 379 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:06,210 here with this aspirational version and by the time we're in 380 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:10,170 our second week, we're working basically an entirely different 381 00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:12,370 company. And we just eroded the 382 00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:14,770 engagement and excitement that a new joiner has. 383 00:20:14,770 --> 00:20:17,530 And that's why we're seeing statistics like 30% of new 384 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:19,730 joiners are leaving their companies within the first three 385 00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:22,850 months, citing a lack of development and unclear 386 00:20:22,850 --> 00:20:26,450 expectations. We're also seeing that about 50 387 00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:31,500 some percent of employees, if they do stay six months, they 388 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,620 continue to look for a job. That means that they're not 389 00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:37,100 actually committed. And in the other staff that 390 00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:41,700 stays with me is from MIT, which they did a big sort of research 391 00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:44,740 project looking at the espouse values of the company, what the 392 00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:49,500 company says they are versus how it feels to work in the company 393 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,860 based on review sites like in the Comparably and Glass door. 394 00:20:53,860 --> 00:20:58,100 And you know what they found. 0 correlation between the espouse 395 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,930 values and the values that are actually in the company 396 00:21:00,930 --> 00:21:02,690 day-to-day. And in some places, Henry, 397 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:05,690 there's a negative correlation, which means they'll stand up and 398 00:21:05,690 --> 00:21:08,730 say innovation matters to us. And in fact, the employees are 399 00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:10,690 saying this isn't an innovative company at all. 400 00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:13,370 So you think about that. Think about what that does to 401 00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:18,210 engagement and commitment and my ability to sort of feel like I 402 00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:21,500 can be a success. You started to unpack so many 403 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:24,060 things I want to cover, but let's start one by one, right. 404 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:26,620 So I think I left. And when you explained that and 405 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:29,460 when I read parts of your book about this as well, right, there 406 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:31,140 are three versions of the company, right. 407 00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:34,380 So when we recruit, we always picture the best or sometimes 408 00:21:34,380 --> 00:21:36,540 even too much aspirational, right? 409 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:39,740 So we want to be X. We are not there, but we aspire 410 00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:41,780 to be that kind of a company, right. 411 00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:45,340 I think that is the first kind of like false version, because 412 00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:47,830 talents will. Tend to think that is true. 413 00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:50,670 And also the glass door thing, the review websites. 414 00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:53,950 I know that I read from some sources that sometimes the 415 00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:57,390 company actually deleted negative comments, asked 416 00:21:57,390 --> 00:21:59,350 employees to write good comments. 417 00:21:59,350 --> 00:22:02,790 So all these are like good kind of projections so that talents 418 00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:06,390 want to work with them. So I think it goes back to what 419 00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:10,870 you mentioned as a culture deck kind of a trend it started by 420 00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:13,850 the startups. So why do you think this kind of 421 00:22:14,050 --> 00:22:17,410 culture deck, aspirational kind of values of a company are 422 00:22:17,410 --> 00:22:19,450 dangerous? So maybe if you can elaborate a 423 00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:22,450 little bit more on that. Well, here's the things I talked 424 00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:24,890 about some of these trends, things like the rise of the 425 00:22:24,890 --> 00:22:28,050 culture deck, right, which you know Netflix was the first, but 426 00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:32,090 many of the tech based companies have used them where they sort 427 00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:33,930 of show. I think what they were meaning 428 00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:36,850 to do, hoping to do is to say, hey, we run our company 429 00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:40,420 differently eventually. What that turned into though was 430 00:22:40,420 --> 00:22:43,220 instead of being honest and authentic about here's how the 431 00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:47,780 company runs today and so come here if you work this way and 432 00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:49,180 here's where we're trying to get. 433 00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:52,380 Instead they just started presenting where we're trying to 434 00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:54,940 get often. And so the culture deck, which 435 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:59,580 was meant to teach people the secret sauce turned into really 436 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:02,580 brand marketing campaigns. When you think about, I mean go 437 00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:05,900 to any career site, almost of any company out there and it's 438 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:10,660 filled with poetry and inspiring languages and great leaders, 439 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:14,100 stories and happy employees. And I think for a lot of folks 440 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,420 that's true. But in all the companies I've 441 00:23:16,420 --> 00:23:21,100 been in, about 60% and Gallup would say it's probably 32% on 442 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,020 average. But often the brands I've been 443 00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:26,420 about 60% of people are really happy they're content and then 444 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:30,140 40% are struggling, they're riding with their non dominant 445 00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:32,650 hand. And although the brand marketing 446 00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:35,650 and recruiting isn't the only problem, it's a big one, right, 447 00:23:35,650 --> 00:23:39,730 because it's our first and only set of information allows us to 448 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:42,250 make a good decision. And so I think the culture that 449 00:23:42,250 --> 00:23:45,250 started this idea of just turning companies into brand 450 00:23:45,250 --> 00:23:49,370 campaigns and so whoever can look the coolest is bound to get 451 00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:51,210 the best employees. Yeah. 452 00:23:51,210 --> 00:23:54,450 I think that's the current trend in the hiring world, I would 453 00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:56,940 say. Which leads to what you said in 454 00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:59,420 the earlier conversation that you mentioned, like some 455 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:02,380 percentage of these new joiners, right after six months they are 456 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:04,460 still looking for other jobs, right? 457 00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:07,060 They are still browsing. So you call this infinite 458 00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:09,300 browsing, the lack of commitment, right? 459 00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:12,820 So this is a new trend for me, a new insight. 460 00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:16,220 So maybe if you can explain the danger of this infinite browsing 461 00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:20,740 for employees, why do you think they are still looking for new 462 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:23,140 jobs even though they have been there for like 6 months? 463 00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:26,580 Well, Henry have to start by giving credit for the term 464 00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:29,380 infinite browsing from a book that I think everyone should 465 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:32,300 read called Dedicated. It's by an author named Pete 466 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:36,300 Davis and he's talking about this crisis of commitment, not 467 00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:38,220 just in jobs but all over the world. 468 00:24:38,260 --> 00:24:41,340 You know, whether you look at divorce rates for marriage, how 469 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:45,300 often people leave their hometowns to the groups we join 470 00:24:45,340 --> 00:24:48,700 and leave to the companies. And his thesis is really one 471 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,700 that, you know, really is a a trend that's important to me, 472 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:56,080 which is because of things like social media, because of 473 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,680 marketing campaigns by companies, no one really has a 474 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,600 clear version of the truth. All of a sudden we have a 475 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,920 million stories of where the grass is greener. 476 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,000 You pick up your phone, you get on TikTok or Facebook, 477 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,240 somebody's doing something really cool and you think, God, 478 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,080 I want to do that. And so we end up chasing this 479 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,800 idea of FOMO or the fear of missing out. 480 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:24,090 And so in almost every pursuit, we're kind of keeping 1 foot in 481 00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:26,810 and 1 foot out. Maybe there's something better, 482 00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:30,490 maybe there's a better job, a better partner, a better best 483 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:31,890 friend, a better city to live in. 484 00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:34,210 And so we're not committing fully. 485 00:25:34,690 --> 00:25:37,850 And so, you know, I look at that trend, I think, man, if 486 00:25:37,850 --> 00:25:41,130 companies could be a little bit more authentic and talent could 487 00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:44,370 be a little bit clearer about what they want, not what 488 00:25:44,370 --> 00:25:47,650 everyone else is up to, but what they want, maybe we could 489 00:25:47,650 --> 00:25:50,690 rebuild commitment. And with it, I think you just 490 00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:55,290 see an upswing in productivity, morale, engagement, innovation, 491 00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:58,050 all those things. So I think this kind of 492 00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:01,090 distraction, right, social media marketing campaign. 493 00:26:01,090 --> 00:26:05,250 So we all are aware about that danger and it also seeps to the 494 00:26:05,290 --> 00:26:08,570 employment world as well, right? So even when you have started a 495 00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:11,490 new job, sometimes you think, oh, maybe this is not the right 496 00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:13,490 one. There's another better job out 497 00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:15,090 there and you keep looking, right? 498 00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:17,890 That's so that kind of like brings you to a lack of 499 00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:20,030 commitment. It's a good segue for us to talk 500 00:26:20,030 --> 00:26:23,350 about individuals, right. So if we now know that there's a 501 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:27,470 right fit company for all of us, how shall we prepare ourselves 502 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:31,070 so that we are not being tricked by the marketing campaign or the 503 00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:34,390 culture deck, right. So how can individuals start 504 00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:36,070 looking for the right fit company? 505 00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:38,790 You know, throughout the interviews, a lot of the book is 506 00:26:38,790 --> 00:26:42,150 based on the insights of talent, just like you and me who've gone 507 00:26:42,150 --> 00:26:45,040 through this and have some words of wisdom for us. 508 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,400 And one of the things that came up often, I always ask the 509 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,360 interviewees, when did you know it was a wrong fit? 510 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,360 When did you know you were going to a company that didn't work 511 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,680 the way you worked? And a lot of you know, they said 512 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,400 it was really interesting here. They said, if I'm being totally 513 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,680 honest, I knew it in the interview. 514 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,520 I just chose not to pay attention to it. 515 00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:07,910 I chose not to pay attention to information that was going to 516 00:27:07,910 --> 00:27:11,670 keep me from taking this job at this cool brand, at this great 517 00:27:11,670 --> 00:27:14,790 company for better pay, a bigger title, all those things that we 518 00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:17,350 worry about. And so I think the first thing I 519 00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:22,230 would tell talent to do is not to start a job search by looking 520 00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:26,430 for jobs, To really start a job search by understanding at a 521 00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:31,550 deeper level who you are, what you value, how you like to work, 522 00:27:32,110 --> 00:27:35,190 what type of career you're building, what you're solving 523 00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:38,630 for for the next 10 years, where you want your life to be. 524 00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:41,910 And most important, like what are you solving for right now. 525 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:46,030 And in all the interviews, the one consistent piece of feedback 526 00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:49,990 to anyone looking for a job is we got to do more self 527 00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:54,170 reflection, know ourselves and what we're looking for and then 528 00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:57,290 start doing the job search. And if we don't do that piece of 529 00:27:57,290 --> 00:28:01,010 work first, we just get caught in a manipulated environment 530 00:28:01,010 --> 00:28:02,610 that you're not getting version of the truth. 531 00:28:02,610 --> 00:28:04,090 So it's harder to make a good decision. 532 00:28:05,130 --> 00:28:07,930 So yeah, I think this part of the book I find is like the 533 00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:09,890 socalled the best part of your book, right. 534 00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:12,730 So you invite people to actually do self reflection. 535 00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:16,810 So you're saying that's not start finding the job by looking 536 00:28:16,810 --> 00:28:18,810 for the job or the role that you want, right? 537 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,440 Let's start looking internally inside, right. 538 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,800 So what are your values? What kind of people you want to 539 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,360 work, What are you solving for, right? 540 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,880 And sometimes it's also different for different stages 541 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,720 of life. So I think the first key thing 542 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,520 is about self reflection. So maybe, if you don't mind, 543 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,040 let's go through, I know you have maybe eight or nine kind of 544 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,760 self reflection questions. Maybe if you can pick some 545 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,160 favorites. What are some of these questions 546 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,240 that people should ponder about before they look for a new job? 547 00:28:45,010 --> 00:28:46,970 The first thing I'd say here, you kind of brought it up is the 548 00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:50,530 cool thing about these excursions is you should do them 549 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:53,170 every year, right? You should do them every time 550 00:28:53,170 --> 00:28:55,930 you transition a job. You should do it every time you 551 00:28:55,930 --> 00:28:59,250 get a new leader or your company goes through transformation. 552 00:28:59,450 --> 00:29:02,610 Because nothing's static. Our companies aren't static. 553 00:29:02,730 --> 00:29:05,130 The ways of working aren't static, and who we are isn't 554 00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:07,130 static. So they're built in a way that 555 00:29:07,130 --> 00:29:11,570 says, hey, it'd be really smart to do them once a year, if not 556 00:29:11,570 --> 00:29:13,270 more. A few of my favorites. 557 00:29:13,270 --> 00:29:16,110 So the first one is one of the ones I think about a lot 558 00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:18,670 personally, which is this excursion that helps you get 559 00:29:18,670 --> 00:29:22,230 clear about what you value in big decisions. 560 00:29:22,670 --> 00:29:25,150 And so often when you ask someone what they value, they 561 00:29:25,150 --> 00:29:28,990 give you the greatest hits. Oh, I value innovation, I value 562 00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:31,550 relationships, I value curiosity. 563 00:29:31,550 --> 00:29:34,910 And those are probably true. But the real difference in this 564 00:29:34,910 --> 00:29:38,430 excursion is I have you think about the big decisions in life 565 00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:43,410 1st, and then I ask you in those decisions, what were the factors 566 00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:44,770 that weighed most heavily on you? 567 00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:49,330 And then I have people look at a list of values and have them 568 00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:53,530 sort of do a value ladder, which is a for sort of which values 569 00:29:53,530 --> 00:29:55,010 matter. And the reason I find this 570 00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:58,490 exercise compelling is I would love to think about myself as a 571 00:29:58,490 --> 00:30:01,010 risk taker. I would love to think of myself 572 00:30:01,010 --> 00:30:03,970 as someone who values creativity and innovation. 573 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:07,810 But the truth is, when I look at the big decisions I make in 574 00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:12,100 life, Henry, I value financial security above all else, right? 575 00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:16,860 And I comes from, I grew up in a really unstable environment as a 576 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:19,460 kid. My dad wasn't good with money, 577 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:21,540 didn't always kind of do the best by the family. 578 00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:24,820 So we kind of had this up and down sort of childhood. 579 00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:28,540 And I think growing up that way has me hold this value of 580 00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:31,140 financial security in every big decision I make. 581 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:35,380 And I think being honest about that helps me think about the 582 00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:38,500 jobs and the places I join. I'm probably not the startup 583 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:42,340 guy, too much risk and so that's probably why I worked for a lot 584 00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:44,900 of these big companies overtime. So that's one that I really 585 00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:47,180 like. Another one that I'm really 586 00:30:47,180 --> 00:30:51,340 compelled by is an excursion that has you sort of determine 587 00:30:51,340 --> 00:30:54,540 what your career is about. Is your career about company? 588 00:30:54,740 --> 00:30:57,380 That is. Do I love this brand and this 589 00:30:57,380 --> 00:31:00,260 product so much that I can't imagine working anywhere else? 590 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,880 Are you of craft, which is I have this deep expertise or 591 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,000 knowledge that I want to be the best in the world at? 592 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,040 Or are you of cause where I have a big injustice or problem in 593 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,920 the world that I just have to solve? 594 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,040 And I think what's been really compelling about this excursion 595 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,000 is, depending on your answer, you create an entirely different 596 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,440 career with entirely different choices. 597 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,320 And I don't know that talent really recognizes those 598 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,370 trade-offs. I'll give you an example, and 599 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:32,090 then we can move on. I'm a craft person, right? 600 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:35,330 I've been about organizational psychology and culture and 601 00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:37,210 leadership, and it's the only thing I care about. 602 00:31:37,370 --> 00:31:39,090 It's everything. I'm obsessed by it. 603 00:31:39,370 --> 00:31:43,050 If I stayed at one company my whole career, I could never be 604 00:31:43,050 --> 00:31:45,850 best in class. Because in order to be great in 605 00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:49,090 culture, you have to see a lot of different cultures. 606 00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:52,690 And so that means that no matter how much I love the companies I 607 00:31:52,690 --> 00:31:56,790 was at, I couldn't stay because there's no way I could gain the 608 00:31:56,790 --> 00:31:59,350 sort of depth of knowledge in that area if I did. 609 00:31:59,350 --> 00:32:02,270 And so I had to make some sacrifices and choices around 610 00:32:02,270 --> 00:32:05,470 what my career is going to look. Like, yeah, so I think company, 611 00:32:05,470 --> 00:32:08,750 craft and cost is also one of my favorite excursion, right? 612 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,040 So I think that's really, really great that you brought it up so 613 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,320 that people can ponder, right? So when you look for a job, do 614 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,440 you want to be associated with a good company, right? 615 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,400 And hence you probably stay longer there or you want to 616 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,680 improve your craft or what? Maybe Daniel Pink says mustry or 617 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,360 do you want to work on a cause, right? 618 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,520 Maybe it could be poverty, sustainability or those kind of 619 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,440 things, right. So I think that's really a good 620 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,890 question. And I also love the first thing, 621 00:32:33,890 --> 00:32:36,770 the first excursion that you mentioned right is about knowing 622 00:32:36,770 --> 00:32:40,250 yourself in big decisions because sometimes we think we 623 00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:42,890 are you know this kind of characteristic, but looking back 624 00:32:42,890 --> 00:32:45,490 on all the big decisions that we made, we actually think 625 00:32:45,490 --> 00:32:48,130 differently, right. So our thoughts and our actions 626 00:32:48,130 --> 00:32:50,330 are totally different. So I think that's a really good 627 00:32:50,330 --> 00:32:53,050 insights as well for people look for your big decisions. 628 00:32:53,370 --> 00:32:55,830 I think this. Excursions to me is one of the 629 00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:58,790 great things that people can start doing maybe in their 630 00:32:58,790 --> 00:33:01,390 current job as well, right? Assess where you are at the 631 00:33:01,390 --> 00:33:03,870 moment, are you in the right fit and also for the next job. 632 00:33:03,870 --> 00:33:06,350 So I think this is really, really key do yourself 633 00:33:06,350 --> 00:33:09,350 reflection. So maybe let's move on to the 634 00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:10,630 next thing that I want to discuss. 635 00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:12,900 Right, You mentioned that. When you interviewed all these 636 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:16,460 people, they kind of like realized that they may go into a 637 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:19,180 wrong fit company in the interview itself, right? 638 00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:23,020 So maybe if you can maybe give some advice, the gotchas that 639 00:33:23,020 --> 00:33:26,420 you think people should avoid when they experience this in the 640 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:29,140 interview so that they don't pick the wrong choice. 641 00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:32,020 And sometimes it's also about, you know, job description, 642 00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:34,540 career page and all those kinds of brand of marketing as well, 643 00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:36,140 right? That may lead us to think that 644 00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:37,820 this is still the right company for me. 645 00:33:37,820 --> 00:33:40,940 So maybe if you can explain that, that would be great, yes. 646 00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:43,500 And here I'll start with just the experience of interviewing, 647 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:45,140 right? And if you stand back from the 648 00:33:45,140 --> 00:33:48,140 process of interviewing for a job, there's some real 649 00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:49,620 interesting elements to it, right? 650 00:33:49,620 --> 00:33:54,660 The first one is that as a talent, I show up as the 651 00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:58,980 absolute best version of myself. I've studied the company, I've 652 00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:01,220 got all the answers to the interview questions. 653 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:04,100 I'm dressed the best you'll ever see me dressed in my life. 654 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,940 And the same's true for the company. 655 00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:09,820 The company's showing up on their best day in their best 656 00:34:09,820 --> 00:34:11,780 moment. And The thing is, when we all 657 00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:15,260 show up on our best behavior, it's not reality. 658 00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:18,060 And I always think about that idea of, hey, if you've ever 659 00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:22,020 dated, you know this feeling, first dates tend to go really 660 00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:25,580 well, but then almost every relationship, by the second or 661 00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:28,620 third or fourth date, you can't stand the person. 662 00:34:29,060 --> 00:34:30,860 And the same's true for interviewing. 663 00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:34,179 So we act like it's a first date when we're actually making a 664 00:34:34,179 --> 00:34:36,620 commitment that could last a lifetime. 665 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,020 It's like the second biggest commitment we'll make behind 666 00:34:39,020 --> 00:34:41,199 marriage. I think I saw a stat, and it's 667 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,400 in the book, that we'll spend 13.5 full years every moment, 668 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,840 every second, every day of our adult lives at work. 669 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,280 It's second only to sleeping. And yet we make the choice on a 670 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,520 really incomplete set of data with only a few touch points 671 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,520 when people are on their best behavior. 672 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:02,800 Like, how can you ever make a great decision? 673 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,520 And then the other interesting, Henry, is that there's some 674 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,130 parts of our brain that get in our way, right. 675 00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:10,650 One of them is sort of the biases that we create. 676 00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:13,450 And there's a great bias we talked about earlier called 677 00:35:13,450 --> 00:35:16,690 confirmation bias. And confirmation bias is sort of 678 00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:19,450 this sense of when we're motivated to make a certain 679 00:35:19,450 --> 00:35:24,050 decision like wanting to join a company, we will pay more 680 00:35:24,050 --> 00:35:27,890 attention to confirming information and less or almost 681 00:35:27,890 --> 00:35:30,410 no attention to disconfirming information. 682 00:35:30,930 --> 00:35:34,130 And so I guess my insight to anyone who's interviewing is, 683 00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:36,930 first, do the excursions, know yourself really well. 684 00:35:37,340 --> 00:35:41,980 Secondly is be really careful of the source of the information 685 00:35:42,220 --> 00:35:43,460 and where you're getting it right. 686 00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:46,460 So we often will hear from recruiters, we'll talk to our 687 00:35:46,460 --> 00:35:49,060 hiring manager, we'll go through an interviewing process. 688 00:35:49,220 --> 00:35:51,980 We might be on site for a short amount of time. 689 00:35:52,380 --> 00:35:54,420 All those are company produced assets. 690 00:35:54,820 --> 00:35:58,100 And so make sure you're balancing what you're picking up 691 00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:02,340 in the interview process with external and objective sources 692 00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:03,620 of information. Great. 693 00:36:03,620 --> 00:36:05,760 One is the employee review sites, right? 694 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,240 All those places where employees go and they give reviews of 695 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,240 companies, they're often disgruntled employees, but 696 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:14,560 there's some patterns and themes that you can see clearly there 697 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,080 or at least questions you can ask. 698 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,040 I think secondly is annual reports, ESG reports videos. 699 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,400 Most leaders in most companies do videos. 700 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,240 And so you can see them interacting, get a sense on who 701 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:30,800 they are and how they show up. And then I think third is really 702 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,440 make sure that you're using your network. 703 00:36:33,870 --> 00:36:36,990 One of my favorite sources of information in an interview 704 00:36:36,990 --> 00:36:40,750 process is to find people on LinkedIn that work for the 705 00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:42,470 company. I'm interviewing out for a long 706 00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:47,670 time, but recently left. And I reach out to them and say, 707 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:49,870 hey, I want to hear about your experience and I want to hear 708 00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:52,430 why you left. And most people that have left 709 00:36:52,430 --> 00:36:56,630 the company are willing to talk and share the honest feeling 710 00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:58,190 that you're going to have when you work there. 711 00:36:58,190 --> 00:37:00,790 So those are a few pieces of advice in the book. 712 00:37:00,790 --> 00:37:03,880 There's a ton more. Yeah, I love all your advices, 713 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,360 right? Sometimes we didn't exercise all 714 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,000 these options even though we do have it. 715 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,240 Like for example in your LinkedIn network, find people 716 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,640 who have worked in that company, that's the first thing. 717 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,040 Or people who have worked there and left the company. 718 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,400 So I think those are really great factual information I 719 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,920 would say. And the other thing that you 720 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,440 mentioned, which I find people sometimes not doing in the 721 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,440 interview itself, you can ask critical questions, right? 722 00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:28,200 Critical questions like how are the best performers in the 723 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,320 company doing right? What kind of values? 724 00:37:30,670 --> 00:37:33,310 How do you make big decisions in the company and things like 725 00:37:33,310 --> 00:37:35,230 that? So I think you can also ask that 726 00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:38,310 during the interview, not just like ask shallow questions like 727 00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:41,710 what are the technology or what kind of things that people are 728 00:37:41,830 --> 00:37:43,750 drawn into day-to-day and things like that. 729 00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:45,550 So I think thanks for all these insights. 730 00:37:45,550 --> 00:37:49,150 So when we do an interview, let's put up more effort so that 731 00:37:49,150 --> 00:37:51,560 we don't. Choose the wrong fit company 732 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,560 right? So the other section of your 733 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,920 book is You mentioned this concept of buffers. 734 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,760 I don't know much what buffer means, but if you can elaborate 735 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,400 a little bit more. Why do you think buffers is also 736 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,760 important for people to choose the right fit company? 737 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,200 Yeah. It starts here, Henry, is that 738 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,840 most companies are growing and changing and shifting and moving 739 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,960 and altering the way they work and what they value. 740 00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:19,350 And so with that, I think one of the insights from the interview 741 00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:22,390 interviewees is that right fit is pretty tenuous. 742 00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:26,190 That means that if you have it, you're really lucky and there's 743 00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:30,230 a chance that it might go away. You get a new leader, you change 744 00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:33,390 jobs, you go through a big transformation as the company. 745 00:38:33,710 --> 00:38:36,550 And so the whole chapter on buffers was really meant to say, 746 00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:40,530 hey, if you're in a right fit experience, there's things you 747 00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:44,530 can do to strengthen and guarantee that that right fit 748 00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:46,890 stays. If you're in a wrong fit or a 749 00:38:46,890 --> 00:38:51,810 hard fit experiences, these buffers can make it feel easier, 750 00:38:52,290 --> 00:38:56,010 make it better, and give you a fighting chance to sort of turn 751 00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:58,010 it into right fit. Because the last thing I want 752 00:38:58,010 --> 00:39:00,530 for people to do is to say, Oh my God, I don't fit. 753 00:39:00,530 --> 00:39:03,690 I should just leave and it's like maybe, but that's not the 754 00:39:03,690 --> 00:39:06,210 only answer. And so these buffers really give 755 00:39:06,210 --> 00:39:11,690 people a set of tools and tricks and tips on how to create a 756 00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:13,730 stronger relationship with the company. 757 00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:16,370 And there's two types, right? There's the inspirational 758 00:39:16,370 --> 00:39:20,290 buffers, these things that connect us to meaning and 759 00:39:20,290 --> 00:39:23,650 purpose and impact, and those things that are sort of higher 760 00:39:23,650 --> 00:39:25,570 level. And then there's a set of 761 00:39:25,570 --> 00:39:29,170 relational buffers. So the people we surround 762 00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:33,390 ourselves with make a difference in how sort of connected and 763 00:39:33,390 --> 00:39:35,110 committed we are to the companies we're part of. 764 00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:38,510 And so there's a set of buffers that are about the relationships 765 00:39:38,510 --> 00:39:41,750 we have and how we think about them that are helpful to talent 766 00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:44,270 to keep right fit or to find it if you don't have it. 767 00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:45,990 Yeah. Thanks for elaborating. 768 00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:48,830 These two types of buffers, the inspirational buffers, things 769 00:39:48,830 --> 00:39:51,790 like meaningful work, growth opportunities. 770 00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:54,890 Or maybe the cost that the company is fighting for, right, 771 00:39:54,890 --> 00:39:56,970 that those kind of things can also help. 772 00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:59,810 Even though you think that the way of working probably is a bit 773 00:39:59,810 --> 00:40:03,210 frustrating, but you have this kind of inspirational buffers to 774 00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:05,370 actually motivate you. The other aspect is the 775 00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:08,730 relational buffer, right? So this is another question 776 00:40:08,730 --> 00:40:12,050 related to relational buffer. You mentioned that the impact of 777 00:40:12,050 --> 00:40:15,930 a manager is actually very crucial for any kind of company 778 00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:19,370 to figure out that that is the right fit company for them, 779 00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:21,400 right? Also, we know the saying that 780 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,320 people don't quit their jobs, they quit their managers, right? 781 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,480 So manager is really, really important. 782 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,560 So tell us a little bit more about the role of the leader of 783 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,320 manager in the company. Yeah. 784 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,720 So I'll say a couple things to start, Henry is in this sort of 785 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,480 age of horizontal working or more agile ways of working, I 786 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,360 actually think the concept of a manager mattering is shifting 787 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,680 slightly, right? So Gallup will tell you 70% of 788 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,400 your engagement is dictated by your direct manager. 789 00:40:49,930 --> 00:40:52,730 And when I look at the way organizations are set up today, 790 00:40:52,730 --> 00:40:56,010 I actually think that management is more of a collective act and 791 00:40:56,010 --> 00:40:59,450 we probably have two or three managers at any given time. 792 00:40:59,450 --> 00:41:01,370 They're impacting our engagement. 793 00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:04,610 And so thinking about not just the person you report to, but 794 00:41:04,610 --> 00:41:08,250 the people that you're doing work for and who they are and 795 00:41:08,250 --> 00:41:09,890 what they value and how they come to work. 796 00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:12,930 And you know, I think that the second part of that is that, 797 00:41:13,130 --> 00:41:18,050 hey, we need to start seeing our managers as team leaders. 798 00:41:18,670 --> 00:41:22,590 And we also have to realize that as talent, you make your manager 799 00:41:22,670 --> 00:41:23,950 right. The thing that I always hear 800 00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:25,670 people say is I don't have a good manager. 801 00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:28,510 So I left them like, hey, I don't think you know this, but 802 00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:32,190 you as a team you can shape your manager. 803 00:41:32,590 --> 00:41:35,190 Like one of the greatest tools we have is positive 804 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:37,590 reinforcement. BF Skinner in my area of 805 00:41:37,590 --> 00:41:41,430 psychology sort of started this work of positive reinforcement. 806 00:41:41,870 --> 00:41:44,830 And one of the insights I would give any talent to say, hey, if 807 00:41:44,830 --> 00:41:47,190 you want a great manager, make them great. 808 00:41:47,630 --> 00:41:50,950 And how do you do that? You do that by first knowing 809 00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:54,230 what you need out of your manager in order for you to be 810 00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:56,350 at your best. So who is your ideal leader? 811 00:41:56,350 --> 00:41:58,430 What do they value? How do they come to work? 812 00:41:58,430 --> 00:41:59,950 How do they support you as an employee? 813 00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:03,830 And then be really clear with your manager about what you 814 00:42:03,830 --> 00:42:06,510 need. Most managers want to be great, 815 00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:09,750 they just don't know how. And so if you tell them this is 816 00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:12,790 what I need from you, many are going to come towards it. 817 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:15,780 The other thing you can do is when you see your manager do 818 00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:18,500 something that is sort of on your list of things that you 819 00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:22,220 need, give them feedback. Not feedback of hey Bosh did a 820 00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:25,620 good job, give them feedback about the thing that they did. 821 00:42:25,980 --> 00:42:29,460 Because the truth is, the higher you go in a company, the less 822 00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:31,820 feedback you get. It's odd, but it's true. 823 00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:36,420 And so anytime someone's willing to say hey in this meeting when 824 00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:40,060 you open up the meeting and you asked everyone what was the best 825 00:42:40,060 --> 00:42:43,020 part of their weekend. That really mattered to me 826 00:42:43,260 --> 00:42:46,180 because it made me feel valued 9 times out of 10. 827 00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:47,700 You know what's gonna happen at the next meeting? 828 00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:50,940 Manager's gonna do that again. And so I think the most 829 00:42:50,940 --> 00:42:53,660 important thing about a manager is, yes, they will dictate your 830 00:42:53,660 --> 00:42:57,940 engagement, but you have the ability to shape them and so you 831 00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:00,700 should try to do that. Yeah, this is another great 832 00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:02,660 insights that I think people should learn, right? 833 00:43:02,660 --> 00:43:06,460 So don't just get resigned to what the type of manager you 834 00:43:06,460 --> 00:43:08,890 have, right? You can also make your manager 835 00:43:08,890 --> 00:43:10,890 like you said, right? So sometimes positive 836 00:43:10,890 --> 00:43:13,570 reinforcements tell them that they are doing the things that 837 00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:16,810 you like and also if there are any kind of feedback, right, 838 00:43:16,810 --> 00:43:19,530 please do give them. So I also realize as you rise 839 00:43:19,570 --> 00:43:22,650 through the ranks, right, people tend to probably hesitate when 840 00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:25,290 they want to give critical feedback because of via, you 841 00:43:25,290 --> 00:43:27,650 know, hierarchies and performance management and 842 00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:30,170 things like that. So I think giving critical 843 00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:33,410 feedback is also useful and many leaders actually are looking 844 00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:36,920 forward for that, right, because there's no better way of 845 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,720 learning how to improve rather than the people that you're 846 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:41,920 working with. So I think that's really great 847 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,000 insights. So thank you for mentioning that 848 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,200 we can also make an impact to our managers. 849 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,840 So we've been talking a lot from the employee perspective, right. 850 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,480 So the people who work, how about the company's side, right. 851 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,640 So what are the responsibilities so that they can create the 852 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,440 better right fit culture for talents to come in to them? 853 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,400 I'd say first and foremost, Henry, you know, companies need 854 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,640 to sort of take three steps back, open their eyes really 855 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,720 wide and think harder about how we work when we're at our best, 856 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,000 right. And there's sort of three big 857 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,840 categories of work that I believe the company needs to get 858 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,280 really clear and authentic about. 859 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,320 First, is the work principles, right? 860 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,120 So these are ground rules or norms that we use to define how 861 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,600 work gets done. So I'll give you one that's, you 862 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,480 know, sort of pithy, but when you think about selling an idea. 863 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,120 Some people will say, hey, you know, we work in full sentences, 864 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,280 not in poetry. That's a work principle. 865 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,880 That's saying, hey, when you make a pitch you need to write 866 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,840 it out. And so that's a principle. 867 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,480 And then a work practices. What are the tools and models 868 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,560 and assets we use in technical teams? 869 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,380 You use Agile and scrums. In other places we use certain 870 00:44:53,380 --> 00:44:57,460 brainstorming techniques or certain ways to prioritize and 871 00:44:57,460 --> 00:45:00,260 set strategy and and I think we need to be really clear about 872 00:45:00,260 --> 00:45:02,140 what tools we use in our company. 873 00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:06,260 And then last but not least is the work platforms, what are the 874 00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:08,780 technology we're going to use to do work together. 875 00:45:08,780 --> 00:45:10,980 And a couple of just anecdotes I'll share. 876 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:14,300 Henry the First was from an interviewee who said, hey, I 877 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:19,020 used to work at a company that was unbelievably gifted at being 878 00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:21,140 clear and consistent and how work got done. 879 00:45:21,180 --> 00:45:23,060 That, she said. The greatest part about working 880 00:45:23,060 --> 00:45:26,420 there is I didn't have to worry about how to create a deck or 881 00:45:26,420 --> 00:45:28,820 presentation. They gave you the format. 882 00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:33,860 I just had to worry about getting my best content in there 883 00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:38,180 so I could get folks to see the opportunity I was excited about. 884 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,140 And she's like the coolest part of that is I didn't have to put 885 00:45:41,140 --> 00:45:43,180 creative energy into building a deck. 886 00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:46,180 I could put all my creative energy into my craft. 887 00:45:46,730 --> 00:45:50,530 Into what I did really well and show how I could help the 888 00:45:50,530 --> 00:45:53,250 consumer. And that's just one small 889 00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:55,890 example, right, but a really powerful one. 890 00:45:56,170 --> 00:46:00,850 A second one is I was at a company in my career that we did 891 00:46:00,850 --> 00:46:04,050 an audit of all the technology and learning just in learning 892 00:46:04,050 --> 00:46:05,730 development, not all the technology we used. 893 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,920 And we had like 21 Lms's and like 90 different API's around 894 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,080 that technology. And it was because every leader 895 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,360 that came in had their favorite LMS, they had their favorite 896 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,960 project management technology, they had their favorite way to 897 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,880 communicate, whether it's SLAP or base camp, whatever it is, 898 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,640 and the company just let them all come in. 899 00:46:28,100 --> 00:46:31,220 And so the reason I bring that up, Henry, is because God, are 900 00:46:31,220 --> 00:46:33,900 the days where we work in verticals, right? 901 00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:35,780 Everything is done on the horizontal. 902 00:46:35,780 --> 00:46:39,140 Work is really connected. And if we're all working from 903 00:46:39,260 --> 00:46:42,740 different project management software, think about how hard 904 00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:45,820 it is to manage projects. Because every time I'm working 905 00:46:45,820 --> 00:46:47,900 with a different leader, I got to put it on a different 906 00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:49,860 platform, I got to do it in a different way. 907 00:46:49,860 --> 00:46:52,460 And you just end up eating all your productivity and creative 908 00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:54,420 energy on the coordination of work. 909 00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:57,020 Thanks for sharing these anecdotes. 910 00:46:57,060 --> 00:46:59,500 I think those are really, really great to hear, right. 911 00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,660 So especially what you mentioned the lady right sharing about you 912 00:47:02,660 --> 00:47:05,860 know I just need to figure out the best content that I can do. 913 00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:09,540 So I think work principles, practices and also the 914 00:47:09,620 --> 00:47:12,380 platforms. So when I read that chapter, I 915 00:47:12,380 --> 00:47:15,620 think maybe companies should start putting those in their job 916 00:47:15,620 --> 00:47:19,580 description or career page so that people get more insights on 917 00:47:19,580 --> 00:47:22,620 what kind of way of working that they are getting into if they 918 00:47:22,620 --> 00:47:25,360 join the company, right. So most of the job description 919 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,600 is all about the roles, the skills, right. 920 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,480 A little bit of values maybe, right. 921 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,280 But some are aspirational as well. 922 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,240 They don't tell you the exact way of working that the company 923 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,560 is doing. So I think really thank you for 924 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,720 sharing all of that. So as we reached the end of our 925 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:42,640 conversation, Dr. Andre, I really love this conversation. 926 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,200 By the way, I have one last question that I would like to 927 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:48,520 ask you, which I asked to all of my guests which I call the three 928 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,110 technical leadership ISM. You can think of it just like 929 00:47:51,110 --> 00:47:52,950 advice that you want to give to the listeners here. 930 00:47:53,310 --> 00:47:55,990 So maybe if you can share your version of three technical 931 00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:58,390 leadership wisdom, it's a great question. 932 00:47:58,390 --> 00:48:00,590 So. You know, I'll start kind of 933 00:48:00,590 --> 00:48:02,950 small and then sort of get bigger as we go. 934 00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:08,670 I think the first lesson I would share is that culture is simply 935 00:48:08,670 --> 00:48:12,110 the aggregation of all of our collective behaviors. 936 00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:15,430 If you want to change culture, change how you show up every 937 00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:17,030 day. It's really that simple. 938 00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:18,830 And if you get 5 buddies to do it? 939 00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:22,300 You can change a team. If you get 100 people to do it, 940 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:24,660 you can change the department, you get 1000 people to do it, 941 00:48:24,660 --> 00:48:27,340 you can change a company. And so I think, just realize 942 00:48:27,340 --> 00:48:31,300 that culture isn't set on high, it's not written down and then 943 00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:33,980 magically happens. It's just how we decide to show 944 00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:36,540 up every day. I think the second thing I'd say 945 00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:40,060 is that, you know, the second piece of feedback is life short. 946 00:48:40,620 --> 00:48:45,780 It's impossibly short and we're going to spend 13.5 years of our 947 00:48:45,780 --> 00:48:49,720 adult life at work. Do your best to get to a place 948 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,080 where you can do your best work. It'll not only serve you 949 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,840 becoming better at your craft and having a better career, but 950 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,160 you'll have a better life. And I would tell you kind of the 951 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,680 third piece of advice is when you're struggling, don't work 952 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,080 harder. Because the only place you're 953 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,040 pulling from is you're pulling from your life outside of work. 954 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,720 And the best thing the best leaders do is. 955 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:19,620 They remember 1 fundamental truth is that my first 956 00:49:19,620 --> 00:49:22,860 responsibility is to make life outside of work magic. 957 00:49:23,220 --> 00:49:26,100 Make it great. Because if life outside of work 958 00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:28,100 is great, you know what happens to my job? 959 00:49:28,660 --> 00:49:32,820 It becomes a smaller part of my identity and B there's a 960 00:49:33,060 --> 00:49:35,820 exponentially better chance that I'm happy there. 961 00:49:36,220 --> 00:49:38,260 And so those would be the three piece of advice I'd share 962 00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:40,710 tonight well. Really lovely. 963 00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:42,750 All of them. So I I do love the last one as 964 00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:44,070 well. We talked about it as well. 965 00:49:44,110 --> 00:49:47,510 So if you feel that you're struggling, right, don't work 966 00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:51,310 harder, maybe you do more self reflection, maybe you put more 967 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:54,150 investment into other aspects of your life outside of work, 968 00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:56,350 right. So working harder is never the 969 00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:58,430 solution, right. So I think thanks for sharing 970 00:49:58,430 --> 00:49:59,350 that. Really beautiful. 971 00:49:59,670 --> 00:50:01,750 So Dr. Andre, people love this conversation. 972 00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:04,910 They would want to continue this or maybe ask you questions. 973 00:50:04,910 --> 00:50:06,870 Is there a place where they can find you online? 974 00:50:07,350 --> 00:50:08,990 They sure can. They can finally get LinkedIn. 975 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,200 So I'm I'm easy to spot there. My handle on the end of my 976 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,360 LinkedIn is Doc Martin PDX. And the other way you can find 977 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,160 me is through websites. So my websites 978 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,920 www.wrongfitrightfit.com and there you can find my e-mail, 979 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,360 you can find my LinkedIn profile. 980 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,640 You can even sign up for the newsletter goes out about once 981 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,440 or twice a month and then soon we're going to have some text 982 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,560 based courses up there that you can take to kind of learn about 983 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,970 these concepts and. A little bit more deeply. 984 00:50:38,970 --> 00:50:41,290 So come see me there. And I'm always looking for 985 00:50:41,290 --> 00:50:44,690 people to share their stories of right and wrong fit, to tell me 986 00:50:44,690 --> 00:50:47,490 about their experiences, because I just think the more we talk 987 00:50:47,490 --> 00:50:49,530 about them, the better they're going to get. 988 00:50:49,530 --> 00:50:51,170 Awesome. So I'll make sure to share that 989 00:50:51,170 --> 00:50:53,850 in the show notes. So Dr. Andre, really pleasure to 990 00:50:53,850 --> 00:50:55,730 talk to you today. So really great book. 991 00:50:55,730 --> 00:50:59,290 So I encourage people to also at least check out the excursions. 992 00:50:59,290 --> 00:51:02,810 To me those are the gist of the books that people should do, at 993 00:51:02,810 --> 00:51:06,840 least to figure out what kind of right fit job that is out there 994 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,920 for everyone. So thank you again Doctor Andre. 995 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,080 Appreciate you, Henry, and appreciate. 996 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,840 You creating a space for myself and others to come have this 997 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,720 kind of conversation. It's super important right now. 998 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,720 Thank you for listening to this. Episode and for staying right 999 00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,440 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 1000 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,160 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 1001 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,360 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode 1002 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,360 and if you're new to the podcast. 1003 00:51:32,690 --> 00:51:35,530 Make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable review and 1004 00:51:35,530 --> 00:51:37,730 feedback. It helps me a lot in order to 1005 00:51:37,730 --> 00:51:41,010 grow this podcast better. You can also find the full show 1006 00:51:41,010 --> 00:51:44,530 notes of this conversation on the episode page at Techly Juno 1007 00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:48,170 dot deaf website, including the full transcript, interesting 1008 00:51:48,170 --> 00:51:51,210 quotes, and links to the resources mentioned from the 1009 00:51:51,210 --> 00:51:54,050 conversation. And lastly, make sure to 1010 00:51:54,050 --> 00:51:57,530 subscribe to the show's mailing list on Techly, Juno dot deaf to 1011 00:51:57,530 --> 00:51:59,890 get notified for any future episodes. 1012 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,640 Stay tuned for the next tech regional episode, and until 1013 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:04,720 then, goodbye.